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giovonni
03-12-2009, 08:57 PM
The coming evangelical collapse
An anti-Christian chapter in Western history is about to begin. But out of the ruins, a new vitality and integrity will rise.
By Michael Spencer
from the March 10, 2009 edition

Oneida, Ky. - We are on the verge – within 10 years – of a major collapse of evangelical Christianity. This breakdown will follow the deterioration of the mainline Protestant world and it will fundamentally alter the religious and cultural environment in the West.

Within two generations, evangelicalism will be a house deserted of half its occupants. (Between 25 and 35 percent of Americans today are Evangelicals.) In the "Protestant" 20th century, Evangelicals flourished. But they will soon be living in a very secular and religiously antagonistic 21st century.

This collapse will herald the arrival of an anti-Christian chapter of the post-Christian West. Intolerance of Christianity will rise to levels many of us have not believed possible in our lifetimes, and public policy will become hostile toward evangelical Christianity, seeing it as the opponent of the common good.

Millions of Evangelicals will quit. Thousands of ministries will end. Christian media will be reduced, if not eliminated. Many Christian schools will go into rapid decline. I'm convinced the grace and mission of God will reach to the ends of the earth. But the end of evangelicalism as we know it is close.

Why is this going to happen?

1. Evangelicals have identified their movement with the culture war and with political conservatism. This will prove to be a very costly mistake. Evangelicals will increasingly be seen as a threat to cultural progress. Public leaders will consider us bad for America, bad for education, bad for children, and bad for society.

The evangelical investment in moral, social, and political issues has depleted our resources and exposed our weaknesses. Being against gay marriage and being rhetorically pro-life will not make up for the fact that massive majorities of Evangelicals can't articulate the Gospel with any coherence. We fell for the trap of believing in a cause more than a faith.

2. We Evangelicals have failed to pass on to our young people an orthodox form of faith that can take root and survive the secular onslaught. Ironically, the billions of dollars we've spent on youth ministers, Christian music, publishing, and media has produced a culture of young Christians who know next to nothing about their own faith except how they feel about it. Our young people have deep beliefs about the culture war, but do not know why they should obey scripture, the essentials of theology, or the experience of spiritual discipline and community. Coming generations of Christians are going to be monumentally ignorant and unprepared for culture-wide pressures.

3. There are three kinds of evangelical churches today: consumer-driven megachurches, dying churches, and new churches whose future is fragile. Denominations will shrink, even vanish, while fewer and fewer evangelical churches will survive and thrive.

4. Despite some very successful developments in the past 25 years, Christian education has not produced a product that can withstand the rising tide of secularism. Evangelicalism has used its educational system primarily to staff its own needs and talk to itself.

5. The confrontation between cultural secularism and the faith at the core of evangelical efforts to "do good" is rapidly approaching. We will soon see that the good Evangelicals want to do will be viewed as bad by so many, and much of that work will not be done. Look for ministries to take on a less and less distinctively Christian face in order to survive.

6. Even in areas where Evangelicals imagine themselves strong (like the Bible Belt), we will find a great inability to pass on to our children a vital evangelical confidence in the Bible and the importance of the faith.

7. The money will dry up.

What will be left?

•Expect evangelicalism to look more like the pragmatic, therapeutic, church-growth oriented megachurches that have defined success. Emphasis will shift from doctrine to relevance, motivation, and personal success – resulting in churches further compromised and weakened in their ability to pass on the faith.

•Two of the beneficiaries will be the Roman Catholic and Orthodox communions. Evangelicals have been entering these churches in recent decades and that trend will continue, with more efforts aimed at the "conversion" of Evangelicals to the Catholic and Orthodox traditions.

•A small band will work hard to rescue the movement from its demise through theological renewal. This is an attractive, innovative, and tireless community with outstanding media, publishing, and leadership development. Nonetheless, I believe the coming evangelical collapse will not result in a second reformation, though it may result in benefits for many churches and the beginnings of new churches.

•The emerging church will largely vanish from the evangelical landscape, becoming part of the small segment of progressive mainline Protestants that remain true to the liberal vision.

•Aggressively evangelistic fundamentalist churches will begin to disappear.

•Charismatic-Pentecostal Christianity will become the majority report in evangelicalism. Can this community withstand heresy, relativism, and confusion? To do so, it must make a priority of biblical authority, responsible leadership, and a reemergence of orthodoxy.

•Evangelicalism needs a "rescue mission" from the world Christian community. It is time for missionaries to come to America from Asia and Africa. Will they come? Will they be able to bring to our culture a more vital form of Christianity?

•Expect a fragmented response to the culture war. Some Evangelicals will work to create their own countercultures, rather than try to change the culture at large. Some will continue to see conservatism and Christianity through one lens and will engage the culture war much as before – a status quo the media will be all too happy to perpetuate. A significant number, however, may give up political engagement for a discipleship of deeper impact.

Is all of this a bad thing?

Evangelicalism doesn't need a bailout. Much of it needs a funeral. But what about what remains?

Is it a good thing that denominations are going to become largely irrelevant? Only if the networks that replace them are able to marshal resources, training, and vision to the mission field and into the planting and equipping of churches.

Is it a good thing that many marginal believers will depart? Possibly, if churches begin and continue the work of renewing serious church membership. We must change the conversation from the maintenance of traditional churches to developing new and culturally appropriate ones.

The ascendency of Charismatic-Pentecostal-influenced worship around the world can be a major positive for the evangelical movement if reformation can reach those churches and if it is joined with the calling, training, and mentoring of leaders. If American churches come under more of the influence of the movement of the Holy Spirit in Africa and Asia, this will be a good thing.

Will the evangelicalizing of Catholic and Orthodox communions be a good development? One can hope for greater unity and appreciation, but the history of these developments seems to be much more about a renewed vigor to "evangelize" Protestantism in the name of unity.

Will the coming collapse get Evangelicals past the pragmatism and shallowness that has brought about the loss of substance and power? Probably not. The purveyors of the evangelical circus will be in fine form, selling their wares as the promised solution to every church's problems. I expect the landscape of megachurch vacuity to be around for a very long time.

Will it shake lose the prosperity Gospel from its parasitical place on the evangelical body of Christ? Evidence from similar periods is not encouraging. American Christians seldom seem to be able to separate their theology from an overall idea of personal affluence and success.

The loss of their political clout may impel many Evangelicals to reconsider the wisdom of trying to create a "godly society." That doesn't mean they'll focus solely on saving souls, but the increasing concern will be how to keep secularism out of church, not stop it altogether. The integrity of the church as a countercultural movement with a message of "empire subversion" will increasingly replace a message of cultural and political entitlement.

Despite all of these challenges, it is impossible not to be hopeful. As one commenter has already said, "Christianity loves a crumbling empire."

We can rejoice that in the ruins, new forms of Christian vitality and ministry will be born. I expect to see a vital and growing house church movement. This cannot help but be good for an evangelicalism that has made buildings, numbers, and paid staff its drugs for half a century.

We need new evangelicalism that learns from the past and listens more carefully to what God says about being His people in the midst of a powerful, idolatrous culture.

I'm not a prophet. My view of evangelicalism is not authoritative or infallible. I am certainly wrong in some of these predictions. But is there anyone who is observing evangelicalism in these times who does not sense that the future of our movement holds many dangers and much potential?

• Michael Spencer is a writer and communicator living and working in a Christian community in Kentucky. He describes himself as "a postevangelical reformation Christian in search of a Jesus-shaped spirituality." This essay is adapted from a series on his blog, InternetMonk.com .

original story link;
http://www.csmonitor.com/2009/0310/p09s01-coop.html

orthodoxymoron
03-12-2009, 11:00 PM
Quote: 'We can rejoice that in the ruins, new forms of Christian vitality and ministry will be born. I expect to see a vital and growing house church movement. This cannot help but be good for an evangelicalism that has made buildings, numbers, and paid staff its drugs for half a century.'

Response: Perhaps one of the biggest problems with the church...is just that...the church. Christianity is really Churchianity. Christianity has very little to do with Christ...especially the Teachings of Christ. Where did Jesus tell people to build churches? Where did Jesus tell people to attend church? Where did Jesus ask for money? The Christian church is all about ancient Babylon, Egypt, Israel, and Rome...complete with temples and rituals which include human sacrifice. Jesus tried to set us free...but was trampled by this brutal gang. Jesus has been at the back of the bus for 2,000 years. People should stay home and read the Teachings of Jesus...and pray privately in nature. Nature is the true church of the true God of the Universe.

However, the churches which have the best architecture, acoustics, pipe organs, historical value, etc. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxBjqrPAUg8&feature=related should be preserved...and used as sacred concert halls and museums...but church attendance and participation in rituals should not be required of people...for them to feel that they are 'saved' or otherwise in good and regular standing with Jesus Christ and the God of the Universe. The expense of paying preachers and priests...and paying for extravigant buildings...is a grevous waste of money. God does not need to be worshipped and praised. Satan is the one who requires worship and praise. Who exactly do people worship when they go to church? Think about the parallels between the 'Christian' eucharistic liturgy and Luciferian or Satanic rituals. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOhhHslj8BE Think about the current discussions regarding reptillians. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTcF-7opGLU Have they been playing the parts of BOTH God and Satan? I mean no harm or disrespect to religious people who are doing the best they can to be good human beings. This includes their leadership...right up to the Pope. We are all in this crazy world together. And I think it's going to get crazier.

I hesitated to include this mysterious video. I generally agree with the editorial bias...but it's very strange. For relevance to this thread...skip to the 28 minute point. Commander X may be accurately describing what is coming next regarding religion. It's something NOT to look forward to. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8420071240361070544. Welcome to One Nation Under Satan: The Old World Disorder Reptilian Theocracy. People still need to be ethically and psychologically well balanced. People need to recognize that they are spiritual, as well as physical, beings...and that spiritual life continues beyond physical death...but they need to get rid of all the non-essentials. Living room meetings where the Teachings of Jesus are discussed...and long walks in nature...are probably good places to begin.

I certainly don't have all the answers. I have participated in churches...including mega-churches...and I have a love/hate relationship with Churchianity...but I have decided to follow Jesus. Though none go with me...still I will follow. Please don't stone me! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mm2BsjACkuI&feature=related

Humble Janitor
03-13-2009, 12:38 AM
Good.

I don't sympathize with Christianity and evangelism is the most annoying, most nonsensical form of Christianity out there.

Good riddance. People need to move beyond two-dimensional organized religions.

Machinamentum
03-13-2009, 04:22 AM
Gather the torches! Gather your pitchforks! March forth and don't stop pillaging until Joel Olsteen has been impaled rectally with a microphone stand! :tongue2:

oldpaganfreak
03-13-2009, 05:04 AM
Gather the torches! Gather your pitchforks! March forth and don't stop pillaging until Joel Olsteen has been impaled rectally with a microphone stand! :tongue2:

pardon my ignorance, but who is joel olsteen?

orthodoxymoron
03-13-2009, 05:34 AM
pardon my ignorance, but who is joel olsteen?


Introducing Joel Osteen: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bfr5rVBxp4A. Notice the shape-shifting at the beginning. That snake! Seriously! Does anyone have an explanation for Joel's distorted face at the beginning? The background is not distorted...and the other side of his face is not distorted. Is this really an example of shape-shifting? Where's David Icke when you need him?

cantaloupe
03-15-2009, 06:06 PM
The web bots at Half Past Human forecast a denouement of evangelical Christianity set in motion by scandal. i think the timing is expected to be between now and 2012. Can't wait to see the form it takes. I hope the movement doesn't take alot of well meaning but misguided souls down with it.
The Catholics seem to be weathering their storm of scandal well enough though and it's not as though the evangelicals haven't already seen some high profile exposure of their own. I think the credulous will just keep trudging along, happy for the prescribed beliefs while those paying attention and willing to participate will witness the creation of something new.

oldpaganfreak
03-15-2009, 11:06 PM
Introducing Joel Osteen: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bfr5rVBxp4A. Notice the shape-shifting at the beginning. That snake!


thanks, but that won't help. my dialup doesn't allow me to use vids.

Luminari
03-16-2009, 01:44 AM
Every dollar from the vatican should be seized and re-distributed to end poverty and environmental decline.

I would be so happy if every church on earth was razed to the ground.

These criminals have burnt people like me at the stake for hundreds of years for having the integrity to see through their darkness and hypocrisy of filth and lies.

Your Karma awaits you!

Ashatav
03-18-2009, 08:55 PM
The evangelists are catholics. (of course, a lot of people in that religion does not know).

Cheers

Remember, The Sabbateans Frankists and the Haenseatic League are the backbone ot the idiot system called New World Dis-Order, all Under the Vatican.

orthodoxymoron
03-19-2009, 03:00 AM
The evangelists are catholics. (of course, a lot of people in that religion does not know).

Cheers

Remember, The Sabbateans Frankists and the Haenseatic League are the backbone ot the idiot system called New World Dis-Order, all Under the Vatican.


To me...Protestants are really Reformed Catholics. They never ventured very far from Mother Church. Martin Luther should have based the Protestant Reformation on the Teachings of Jesus. Then it would have been the Protestant Separation.

oldpaganfreak
03-19-2009, 03:32 AM
Martin Luther should have based the Protestant Reformation on the Teachings of Jesus. Then it would have been the Protestant Separation.

imagine, a christian religion actually based on the teachings of jesus....
........that would indeed be revolutionary.

judykott
03-19-2009, 03:35 AM
http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/443/churchoftheantenae.jpg (http://www.imagehosting.com/)
About time

Church of the Heavenly Antenna

Self-serving TV evangelists made the news even as they broadcast their sermons on television. In Herblock at Large, the cartoonist wrote, "Also dealing in megabucks have been the TV evangelists who decry sin and who are up there in direct communication with God --- while at a more mundane level, they rake in millions a year to keep themselves on TV --- and sometimes to keep themselves living in the high style to which they have made themselves accustomed." A good example was Oral Roberts, who raised $8 million dollars after telling his television audience that God had warned him that he would die if he did not receive the money.

Church of the Heavenly Antenna, March 26, 1987

Ashatav
03-24-2009, 10:27 AM
To me...Protestants are really Reformed Catholics. They never ventured very far from Mother Church. Martin Luther should have based the Protestant Reformation on the Teachings of Jesus. Then it would have been the Protestant Separation.

Yeah man, but Alberto Rivera say that the jesuits infiltrated the evangelists some time ago.

Of course at least they don't make the Mysteries Religions' Rituals disguised as christian rituals (what rituals?) that the Catholic church do in their masses.. I hope!


PD: From all the christians religions It seems that the Baptist Calvinists and Adventists are the more biblical (true of the real roots of the ideas of Yehoshua'ha Mechaich) and the calvinists are the only ones who never had sold.

Anyway haha Yehoshua said that the people must get out of religion! hahaha And by spiritual persons (of course spiritual not means new age meditating huppie, that's a religion to, is luciferianism to the masses, the externalization of the hierarchy muahahaha)

Cheers!

orthodoxymoron
03-24-2009, 07:14 PM
The Anglicans, Episcopalians, and Lutherans use the Roman Catholic liturgy. There is very little difference. The Adventists are an interesting group. They have made significant contributions to the world and to theology. The book 'Great Controversy' by Ellen White is especially interesting...and quite Protestant. Alberto Rivera said that they were a primary target of Jesuit infiltration and subversion. Like every church that I know of...they do not place the Teachings of Jesus at the center of their theological structure. Their medical institutions began with prevention and natural treatment...with drugs and surgery used only when absolutely necessary. Now their hospitals are just like any other drugs and surgery hospital chain. Money talks. The Rockefeller Foundation may have had something to do with this.

Ashatav
03-24-2009, 07:24 PM
The Anglicans, Episcopalians, and Lutherans use the Roman Catholic liturgy. There is very little difference. The Adventists are an interesting group. They have made significant contributions to the world and to theology. The book 'Great Controversy' by Ellen White is especially interesting...and quite Protestant. Alberto Rivera said that they were a primary target of Jesuit infiltration and subversion. Like every church that I know of...they do not place the Teachings of Jesus at the center of their theological structure. Their medical institutions began with prevention and natural treatment...with drugs and surgery used only when absolutely necessary. Now their hospitals are just like any other drugs and surgery hospital chain. Money talks. The Rockefeller Foundation may have had something to do with this.

Ahh thankyou for that!

hahaha

evil infiltration :lightsabre: hahaha

cheerz!

Carmen
03-24-2009, 07:52 PM
Of course the whole crazy shebang will collapse. It has to. It was taken over and polluted way way back. The teachings of Jesus were never implemented. What we need now is to revisit what the Master Jesus taught, not endlessly attack the crumbling walls of religion. Be the Light, be the example of Love. Ignore what will soon pass away. Let the Dead Bury Their Dead:thumb_yello::thumb_yello:

Carmen

orthodoxymoron
03-24-2009, 08:04 PM
Of course the whole crazy shebang will collapse. It has to. It was taken over and polluted way way back. The teachings of Jesus were never implemented. What we need now is to revisit what the Master Jesus taught, not endlessly attack the crumbling walls of religion. Be the Light, be the example of Love. Ignore what will soon pass away. Let the Dead Bury Their Dead:thumb_yello::thumb_yello:

Carmen


Well said. Sometimes bad things can be replaced by worse things. I hope this doesn't happen in the area of religion and spirituality. A highly ethical and spiritual society without formal religion would be optimal.

Carmen
03-24-2009, 08:10 PM
ortho, what you focus on you will re-create, always. Our dread and fear only create more dread and fear. Im a bit hot under the collar this morning (downunder) at the endless negative news being fed onto this forum. Not much solution, waythrough stuff at all. Be your own religion, your own spiritual teacher. Self responsibliity is ours to implement. My God is inside of me and my own body is my temple.

Love and Light

Carmen

Ravens and Doves
03-24-2009, 08:44 PM
Of course the whole crazy shebang will collapse. It has to. It was taken over and polluted way way back. The teachings of Jesus were never implemented. What we need now is to revisit what the Master Jesus taught, not endlessly attack the crumbling walls of religion. Be the Light, be the example of Love. Ignore what will soon pass away. Let the Dead Bury Their Dead:thumb_yello::thumb_yello:

Carmen


Ah, a thread packed with thought and things to consider.

I wish I had tme to read it all, but someone's waiting at the bus stop for me.

Always good to remember, Jesus never wrote a single word that made it into the Bible. There is no "Book of Jesus" or "Gospel of Christ."

I have a strong feeling that God/dess wants us to be creative... to take some basic cues from the messenger and develop arts of understanding, love, friendship, nature nurturing... the list is endless. The stuff is good.

Paul

orthodoxymoron
03-25-2009, 05:18 AM
ortho, what you focus on you will re-create, always. Our dread and fear only create more dread and fear. Im a bit hot under the collar this morning (downunder) at the endless negative news being fed onto this forum. Not much solution, waythrough stuff at all. Be your own religion, your own spiritual teacher. Self responsibliity is ours to implement. My God is inside of me and my own body is my temple.

Love and Light

Carmen

I agree. I'd much rather think happy thoughts! Unfortunately, some have suggested rather convincingly that a global theocracy is in our future. This is probably a good time to think and act to ensure that this never occurs...if it doesn't already exist in the shadows.

I like the concept of Positive Response Ability...where one considers all manner of problems in all their gory details...and wages war with them internally, utilizing both positive and negative thinking...and emerges with positive solutions. Obviously the solutions are in short supply...but this does not mean that negative issues should be avoided...but certainly they should not be focused upon...and allowed to destroy all joy and happiness in our lives.

I'm not into worshipping, praising, and obeying deities. I generally mistrust the external supernatural. I am increasingly relying on inner spirituality and the example of fellow humans. Nature is my Cathedral. Music, nature, exercise, and rest are foundational.