The Fallacy of "Healthy" Competition

[Carmen]

Has other people noticed, like I have ,that there is no such thing as 'healthy' competition. Competition usually always brings out the ugly side of human nature. Someone always has to be 'beaten' either physically, pschocologically or emotionally.

The competitive world is an ugly dog eat dog world that does not nurture individual potential and endevour. Third world countries are overwhelmed and bullies abound. This attitude is also reflected in our schools with bullies being a huge problem. The competitive bully is always a coward. They never take on those who are equal in strength! Bullying is a reflection of a competitive society.

There are so many levels and aspects to this perceived 'healthy' competition that aint so healthy in my mind. What are other member thoughts on this?

Cheers

Carmen

[Christo888]

Carmen you are so right on! :thumb_yello:

Below is an excerpt from something of mine.

"The battle for Earth your mind and your body...

"Bullies will always choose a peaceful opponent."
'Ara'

...And the answer is that the peaceful opponent needs a Trump card of self empowerment modulated by Harmony and Balance, the rock in a sling, that prevents the bully from ever thinking twice about coming back here again!"

[orthodoxymoron]

Should a slave not resist a slave master? Should evil not be fought against with good? Is constructive competition not an essential part of responsible freedom? Should the Oympics be outlawed? Should elections be banned? The absence of competition is a dictator's dream.:wall::lightsabre:

[tone3jaguar]

Someone always has to be 'beaten' either physically, pschocologically or emotionally.

That would be the definition of unhealthy competition. Competition can be a very useful learning medium for an individual in the process of their spiritual evolution. Once you have reached a certain level in your personal journey in this reality then competition no longer is useful to you. If the apposing sides in the competition are competing in order to improve themselves and not to build their egos would be healthy competition. Unhealthy competition is where one or more of the teams / individuals in the contest are only in it to build their egos and could care less about improving themselves.

It is only when you invest part of your ego into a competition that you risk damage to your psyche. In that case, the competition is not the problem. The problem is the materialistic paradigm of the participant(s).

[Dantheman62]

So I take it that you don't play cards, chess, checkers, scrabble, monopoly, and so on?
Aren't those healthy competition?
What's the sense of having any games at all if there's no winner and loser?
Healthy competition is healthy because it makes you think and come up with strategies.
I don't think you can associate a bully with competition.
If I win in a game of chess am I a bully?
I think you can associate bullies maybe in competition as there is rules in every game, and the bullies are the ones who break the rules usually.
Competition builds quality!

[burgundia]

I think what Carmen meant was competition comparable to a rat race, something that drains you out of your energy, is stressful and a source of unnecessary anxiety. Competition as opposed to cooperation. Through cooperating , collectively, we can achieve more.
Competition=men
Cooperation=women

Competition is the old paradigm.....

[orthodoxymoron]

I know exactly what Carmen is referring to. Corrupt, Violent, and Heartless Competition is literally killing us...but going to the other extreme is a trap and a mistake. Definitions and Attitudes are so important here. I tend to be a timid and uncompetitive person. I often feel like I don't belong here in our dog eat dog society. To me...learning what Constructive Competition truly is...and achieving it...is almost a sacred work. To me...Jesus Christ and Martin Luther King are examples of people who truly understood and implemented Constructive Competition.

[Carmen]

Hmm, food for thought. Olympic competition is more about equals competing against each other. Ugliness sure is evident in this also. Drugs, cheating are quite common.

Slavery is the ultimate competition where the bully takes all! A slave should always strive to be 'free'. To compete against a slave master would be nonsense. Freedom should be the slave's objective, not competitiion. The same applies to a dictatorship.

Elections, weelll!!! They sure bring out competitive **** and abuse and lies. Don't get me started on that one!

Thanks for your post though ortho, it has caused me to define what I mean by 'competition' It is a mind set of 'beating' someone at something and feeling as though you are king of the heap.

It is definitely natural to be competitive in this 3D world and I myself have had an extremely competitive nature. What I think is that competitiveness defines this realm, but is not useful, desirable or progressive in the higher realms.

I have studied/observed myself in various aspects of competition because this applies personally as well as in family and community.

For instance, I always sucked at tennis playing cos I was always trying to 'beat' my opponent. When I stopped that, and just competed with myself and my attitude, the tennis improved considerably.

These might seem like silly insigficant examples, but they are my examples into this subject.

Another instance of the difference to me between competitivenes and co-operation was in stage productions that I have performed in and directed. In our little country town everyone who comes along is "good enough'. They dont compete to get to take part. When I directed I also applied what I knew about competitiveness and human nature. I said to the members "I am directing this production. Ive never done it before. I want it to be excellent. If you have any critisizm or ideas, bring them to me. If they are valid or workable we will incorporate them into our show." This worked a treat. Everyone had import that were creative. Everyone felt validated and we had a great show. I knew that I didn't have all the knowledge, but together we could create something fabulous and we did.

I also have taken part in a major opera production in the city. I was fascinated to observe the difference between big city/small town approaches. It was all about competition. The members were more jealous of each other because we had had to compete to take part. People were not as friendly and open because of the competiive nature. It was great to be part of a professional show, but it sure lacked the pure fun of our country shows

Do you see what I am getting at here? Just because something is natural and normal and familiar. Does that make it necessarily progressive or right?

Love and Light

Carmen

[Dantheman62]

Competition builds quality, it is progressive and right and necessary!
I can give you a thousand examples!
Just ask, LOL

[burgundia]

Competition builds quality, it is progressive and right and necessary!
I can give you a thousand examples!

This is a man's point of view. You are a man so you think like a man....

[Carmen]

Yes Dan, chess, monopoly etc are great example of healthy competition. They can still bring out the worst of "competitive' people though. Some people will cheat all the time to win!! Then its not about the 'game', its about winning, competition. You must have known people like that. It can be quite funny at times, but taken to the extreme its not a nice characteristic.

[iainl140285]

This is a man's point of view. You are a man so you think like a man....

:mfr_lol:
In order to progress may I suggest you dont think towards thinking like a man OR a woman. :nono:

Both must meet. Both halves must merge to form one :original:

[Dantheman62]

OK but, think about this for a minute, if we didn't have any competition at all then we would have the same old stuff that we started with.
Everything from cars to tires to motors to horses to dogs to television to computers all got better and better quality through competition.

[burgundia]

:mfr_lol:
In order to progress may I suggest you dont think towards thinking like a man OR a woman. :nono:

Both must meet. Both halves must merge to form one :original:

Ok so you men compete, and we women will be cooperating..:roll1:

[Seashore]

I relate to what you're saying here. I have always felt that I don't want to "beat" anyone. And I love the spirit of cooperation.

Of course sports are good for people because of the exercise and the fresh air and being together with people. So I guess that is "healthy competition."

But I know what you're saying. And I agree with it!

[iainl140285]

Ok so you men compete, and we women will be cooperating..:roll1:

:lmfao: As long as we function as one :thumb_yello:

[Dantheman62]

Yeah right burgundia, have you ever watched women's tennis?, women's golf?
women's basketball? phew, talk about competition!

[burgundia]

Everything from cars to tires to motors to horses to dogs to television to computers all got better and better quality through competition.

Do you think it couldn't have been achieved without competition?
great minds that invented things were not competing against each other (unless they were forced to...)

[Dantheman62]

NO!

[burgundia]

Yeah right burgundia, have you ever watched women's tennis?, women's golf?
women's basketball? phew, talk about competition!

I guess it doesn't run in our blood...
Did you see how lionesses look after one another's cubs?
A lion will kill the cubs he did not sire when taking over the pride ( competition against other males).

Did you see synchronized swimming? women are really good at it..:lol3:

[Dantheman62]

Really I'm having fun here and can talk about this all night! LOL

[Carmen]

I agree with you iain. The balance of male and female is necessary. Competition is then balanced with co-oporation. Co-oporation is the service to others aspect and the excellence aspect is the competition.

Okay Dan, bring it on. Lets have your examples. I do agree that an element of competition is necessary, but surely it is an aspect of making something greater or better , not in being king of the heap.

This whole subject is something that I am still working out for myself, so I appreciate members contributions.

Cheers

Carmen

[Dantheman62]

OK Carmen here's a great example!, think about animal breeding, like when you go to a state fair and enter your prize bull in a competition, or your prize pig, or whatever.
Aren't you striving to have the best one?, and if you lose then won't you work harder to raise the next one, so as to bring the quality higher to maybe win next year?
HaHa I know this is right down your alley, LOL

[burgundia]

Ok, i am going to bed now....and i am not going to compete, i am going to cooperate..;)
just joking...i am going to fall asleep immediately....

[iainl140285]

Really I'm having fun here and can talk about this all night! LOL

I see both points of view and this is really a great thread. :thumb_yello:

Lets throw in the ultimate competition scenario - war. :lightsabre:
War, and competition through war pushed people to develop nuclear weapons. Impoved ways to kill each other (or defend themselves).

What kind of competition is this?

[Dantheman62]

I would say that there is good and bad competition, so true, and the bad competition like war, is more ego driven.But war goes all the way back to cavemen, if they lost a battle with the clan over the next hill wouldn't they make better spears next time to try to win/survive?

[777 The Great Work]

A magical life demands the abandonment of comfort security and safety. Combat, competition, extremes, and adverseries are essential to produce higher evolution. A time of desperation is required for life to live close to the edgehttp://freshimagehosting.com/images/ypfuc4j73j8gf23fg1.jpg (http://freshimagehosting.com/)one must be living by ones wits and intuition.

In a stagnant ,http://freshimagehosting.com/images/k42c9uuxo20jz1tlg0m0.jpg (http://freshimagehosting.com/)environment the body and mind will create its on advesary,disease, circumstances and fantasy. Only in Xtremes can spirit discover itself.:original:

[Dantheman62]

Very good 777, stagnation would be a problem without competition.

[Carmen]

Okay Dan, a great example for me as I have competed many times in our equivalent of State Fairs. We call them Agricultural & Pastural Show, or A & P Shows. My god do you find bitchy competitive people there! And its all one or two judges opinion of beautiful or useful. Lovely to look at some of these animals, but they are a bit like human beauty compietitions. They don't necessarily correlate to usefulness. Its all surface stuff. For example exotic bulls are often shown, huge handsome and shiny. Put them out with cows on hill country and they are bloody useless. They are used to a pampered down country, well fed environment. Put them on hills to forage and work and they just can't perform!!!!LoL

Dog shows are another example. Competitive silly people are breeding purebreds that are weakening the physical bodies of many breeds. Nature is competitive to a certain degree. Inbred or line bred animals are so removed from survivalbility that without human pampering and interference they would have died out years ago. But nature overall is co-operative. Each species is part of the whole.

Competition as in war ian, is always destructive, but its also co-operative. At the top its competition, on faction over the other. At the lower levels soldiers have to co-operate extremely well with each other to be an effective unit.

Looking at competition from a higher level it is also co-operative. Without the opponent, there is no competition. So its one thing. Weird huh!

[Carmen]

I gotta go now and I will be back later. Apprieciate all of your comments. I think that we are looking, or should be, at different levels of this subject with very different reactions or responses. Keep it coming!

[Dantheman62]

Good point Carmen, it is weird how it works. I think ego has something to do with winning, but you could look at that differently too.
I've been involved in thousands of competitions, ok we can call them pool tournaments, LOL, and of course I wanted to win everytime but mainly just to see if my skills were polished enough to beat somebody better than me.

I'm not sure if you would call that ego based or not, but I looked at winning as an accomplishment. I would play 30 or 40 games just to warm up before the tournament.
So I guess I looked at it as accomplishment of my hard work and concentration that I put into it. I don't know if that "good" feeling you get when you win is from ego or not.

What did I get out of it in the end?, just a closet full of trophies and a lot of bar tabs paid for by other people, LOL, and the satisfaction of knowing that all my years of practice and playing thousands of games paid off, at least by making me happy.

[orthodoxymoron]

I think what Carmen may be speaking of is similar to 'The Fallacy of "Healthy" Wife-Beating'!!! However, a would be dictator can ruthlessly compete for power...and when achieved...demand that everyone cease competing...and cooperate fully...or else. Is this in the world's future? A violent overthrow of the world's governments...followed by peace and cooperation under a dictator? See how tricky this discussion can get? Those who are advocating non-competition are competing with those of us who think competition can be a 'healthy' thing! Stop competing with us. Your full cooperation is expected. Thank-you. How does that make you feel?

[Jacqui D]

It would be nice to think that we are all the same but we are not!
There will always be someone quicker than you, stronger, intellectually more clever so forth so forth.
It would be a strange world if we were all the same but saying that i know what Carmen means. This striving to be better does not feel right for me.

I remember well when my kids were small i use to loathe their school sports day.Whilst my two sons loved the competitions because they simply loved running my daughter who found the whole thing boring use to hate every minute of it but was forced to take part knowing that she would get no where in the races but did try bless her.
Whilst the winners would all get their winners badge the runners up were ignored and not even praised for trying and the one that always came last was almost boooooed.

Thank goodness today the same school to which my grandson now attends has changed it's attitude and now has a strict rule with the tiny ones that they all receive a badge and the winner wins points for their house team.
more sensible i feel leaving those who are less able to compete in these races feeling a little more like they tried and less like they failed.

But of course the older children still have to do their bit so although age has lessened the blow for some it seems to catch you up again as you go up in years.
I really have no answer to this one but this is an interesting thread i feel because their are pros and cons for this discussion.

[Dantheman62]

Ortho, did you read the whole thread?, just curious. Without competition you would get stagnation and no evolution of quality. Things would stay the same and never improve!
I think that competition has nothing to do with cooperation, or lack of cooperation.

[Carmen]

I actually quite like this thread, cos its making me think!! Just been for my walk and continued this discussion with friends up the road. My friend Michael is reading (for the umpteenth time) The Inner Game of Golf. Some good stuff in that book about different levels on consciousness! The conscious and the sub-conscious mind.

I don't agree with you Dan that competition has nothing to do with co-operation. I think at the next level they are two sides of the same coin. They are ying and yang, male and female. Their is no creation without both. But it does take energy and effort to light the flame.

Ortho, what a dictator would get, wouldn't be co-operation, it would be coercion. Quite different. Slavery is not co-operation. Co-operation is something that is given freely.

Dan, your excellence (congratulations BTW) would have been as much about competiting and improving yourself to win than it was about "beating' someone?

One aspect of straight competition is that the person is extremely jealous of anyone else ranging alongside or winning. Other competitors are never celebrated by a very competitive person. They are resented and sometimes hated.

Jaqui D, There is nothing crueler than sportday at school for the non-competitive or non-sporty child. My heart goes out when I see the pain of failure in some poor kids faces.

I do think that when are society advances to higher levels competitiion as we know it today, will cease to exist. Enlightened people will just refuse to be part of winning and losing.

I know that in the striving, we have the excellence. I know that because I have experienced that. But there has to be a better way.

Love and Light

Carmen

[orthodoxymoron]

Ortho, did you read the whole thread?, just curious. Without competition you would get stagnation and no evolution of quality. Things would stay the same and never improve!
I think that competition has nothing to do with cooperation, or lack of cooperation.

I did read the whole thread...did you?

Competition and Cooperation are closely related. When a baseball game is played...there is a cooperative agreement to follow the rules and cooperate with the rulings of the referees. The team members cooperate with each other to pursue success in the game. A lone ranger team member quickly ends up on the bench. In survival of the fittest competitive evolution...cooperation is a competitive survival skill. I recall discussing this with Terrence McKenna. He agreed with this view. That day...I talked to Dr. Timothy Leary about Jesus. What a trip!

A dictator might insist upon reeducation in a mental hospital for someone who felt and acted coerced...and who exhibited signs of deep seated hostility toward the state. This maladjusted rebel might be a potential terrorist. This mentally ill person must learn to be happy with their servitude. They must learn to love Big Brother. After all...didn't Jesus tell us to love our enemies? Doesn't the Bible tell us that the powers that be are ordained by God? Is God a dictator...or is it Satan who is the dictator? Or...are both terms really Reptilian/Luciferian creations designed to control and enslave the human race? Does Lucifer(and friends) masquerade as BOTH God and Satan? I'm not suggesting that these beings are merely figments of the imagination...but rather that they may be demonic deceptions. Warning: Heresy Inside. I hope the good guys win...or I'm in deep snake ****!

[Czymra]

Dunno what you're on about. Tone3Jaguar answered the question as masterfully as I can imagine. Go back and read his post.

If you fight to win you lose, if you fight the good fight you grow.

[Dantheman62]

OK first off ortho, I didn't mean it like that, I really, really hate this thing called a computer because it truly is the emotional dumbing down of the world, gadget!
I meant that sincerely!!!!!!
Secondly........ I forgot now, I'll be back if I don't throw this stupid thing out the window!, LOL

[Czymra]

I really, really hate this thing called a computer because it truly is the emotional dumbing down of the world, gadget!

Spake the wise man.

[Carmen]

Stick with it Dan, I know what you mean though. Explaining can be damn difficult on a computer!!

Yes, Czymra, Tone3 explained it well, but there are many facets to this subject. Just indulge us will ya please. Competition is so ingrained in our society that we do not see the damage it does. If competition was so bloody marvellous why is the world in such a mess?

[Dantheman62]

OK I'm back, LOL, I think there's so many different types of competition that it can't be talked about as one thing.
If we didn't have any type of industrial competition, every industry would then have a monopoly in their section.
If we didn't have any sporting competition then there really wouldn't be any sports. And nobody being pushed to better themselves.
If we didn't have any educational competition then wouldn't all schools and colleges and such be teaching on the same level, and at the same rate?

I just think that without competition everything would be monotone stagnation.
Boring to say the least and with no advancement of quality!

[Carmen]

Well Dan, as far as industry goes, I can put forward the example of our co-operative dairy industry as an effective model of co-operation. My family are fourth generational farmers. We started off as sheep farmers and my husband became more and more disillusioned with this branch of our agricultural industry. The meat companies were run by mainly an old boy network that competed with each other for overseas markets. One company would go overseas and carefully market their meat products, spend the money advertising and sorting out sometimes tricky markets where one had to be intelligent, patient and intuitive to achieve the objective. It would all be a done deal, then another meat company from New Zealand would come straight in after that and undercut the price!!:wall::wall::wall::wall:

This sort of thing went on all the time. When we shifted over to dairying it was a whole different ballgame. The Dairy industry in New Zealand is owned by all the dairy farmers. This has changed somewhat in the last few years and I'm not sure to what degree. The farmers collectively own their industry. The best young brains are employed in marketing. When they go looking for new markets overseas they seem to always enter into a partnership or co-operate venture with the country to which they sell product to. They do not undermine the existing country's own dairy industry.

Everyone benefits from this co-operative model and it is a very competitive one. It has to be because we are too small a country, too small to not get it right. Farmers share information and improvements are constant. In this case the farmer holds the power and is not the recipient of whatever the industry decides they will pay him or her.

[giovonni]

Competition~ like most things in life~ is healthy in pursuing~ when there is a balance achieved> through the process and experience.
Nothing motivates me more, than when I attempt to give up on myself;
I believe the sweatest and best victories come> when competing with oneself:thumb_yello:


These quotes best> sum-up my sentiments on this subject matter;

There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow men. True nobility lies in being superior to your former self.
unknown


"The world is divided into people who do things and people who get the credit. Try, if you can, to belong to the first class. There's far less competition."
Dwight Morrow

"The essence of competitiveness is liberated when we make people believe that what they think and do is important - and then get out of their way while they do it.”
Jack Welch

"The biggest things are always the easiest to do because there is no competition."
Willian van Horne

[burgundia]

Competition~ like most things in life~ is healthy in pursuing~ when there is a balance achieved> through the process and experience.
Nothing motivates me more, than when I attempt to give up on myself;
I believe the sweatest and best victories come> when competing with oneself:thumb_yello:


These quotes best> sum-up my sentiments on this subject matter;

There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow men. True nobility lies in being superior to your former self.
unknown


"The world is divided into people who do things and people who get the credit. Try, if you can, to belong to the first class. There's far less competition."
Dwight Morrow

"The essence of competitiveness is liberated when we make people believe that what they think and do is important - and then get out of their way while they do it.”
Jack Welch

"The biggest things are always the easiest to do because there is no competition."
Willian van Horne

Beautiful and wise quotes giovonni. i do not agree that where there is no competition there is stagnation.
Let's look at nature. I do not see any competition(unless for a beter mate or place to breed) just cooperation:animals with plants, plants with plants,etc.
Tesla, Skłodowka-Curie, Newton,Copernicus,Faraday, just to name a few, weren't competing with anybody. When I like something and I know I am good at it, I do it for my own pleasure or satisfaction. Was the washing machine invented as a result of competition or to make our lives easier(and of course to make money)?

[Carmen]

Competition in the science world does not advance science. Head scientists jealously guarding their positions, and being the ones receiving funding have often held back scientific advances. Ill repeat the saying I wrote somewhere else that, the science progresses one dead scientist at a time. Brilliant scientists are often in the boondocks till well after their death!

[giovonni]

Competition in the science world does not advance science. Head scientists jealously guarding their positions, and being the ones receiving funding have often held back scientific advances. Ill repeat the saying I wrote somewhere else that, the science progresses one dead scientist at a time. Brilliant scientists are often in the boondocks till well after their death!

:thumb_yello:
Universities are full of closed minds> fields of study and dead ends!
dog and pony shows for grants and funding~
by governments and corporations seeking more control~
It all leads back too the [EGO] not competive scientific advancements :mad3:

[Dantheman62]

From Wikipedia.............

Competition is a combat between individuals, groups, nations, animals, etc. for territory, a niche, or allocation of resources. It arises whenever two or more parties strive for a goal which cannot be shared. Competition occurs naturally between living organisms which co-exist in the same environment. For example, animals compete over water supplies, food, and mates, etc. Humans compete for water, food, and mates, though when these needs are met deep rivalries often arise over the pursuit of wealth, prestige, and fame. Business is often associated with competition as most companies are in competition with at least one other firm over the same group of customers.

Competition may give incentives for self-improvement. For example, if two watchmakers are competing for business, they will hopefully lower their prices and improve their products to increase sales. If birds compete for a limited water supply during a drought, the more suited birds will survive to reproduce and improve the population.

Rivals will often refer to their competitors as "the competition". The term can also be used to refer to the contest or tournament itself.