Concerns Members Have About Enforcement of Forum Rules

[Seashore]

This thread is an off-shoot of the thread "Cliff High view on Bill Ryans accusations." (http://projectavalon.net/forum/showthread.php?t=18277)

I am starting this thread because I sense strong feelings that evidently have been building up over time concerning actions taken by members in authority positions that need to be aired - in an attempt to rectify what may need to be rectified.

I'm going to say something radical. I'm beginning to wonder whether we would be better off without moderators. Just let members handle issues of rudeness themselves.

Functions such as moving threads, changing the titles of threads, and removing pornography could be handled by someone, but rudeness we could handle ourselves.

On the issue of trolls, we could all agree to ignore them.

Maybe this is a dumb idea. But let's have a discussion.

[waitinginthewings]

This thread is an off-shoot of the thread "Cliff High view on Bill Ryans accusations." (http://projectavalon.net/forum/showthread.php?t=18277)

I am starting this thread because I sense strong feelings that evidently have been building up over time concerning actions taken by members in authority positions that need to be aired - in an attempt to rectify what may need to be rectified.

I'm going to say something radical. I'm beginning to wonder whether we would be better off without moderators. Just let members handle issues of rudeness themselves.

Functions such as moving threads, changing the titles of threads, and removing pornography could be handled by someone, but rudeness we could handle ourselves.

On the issue of trolls, we could all agree to ignore them.

Maybe this is a dumb idea. But let's have a discussion.

Thank you Seashore for bringing this up, perhaps members can air their frustrations here about whats been going on.

I would disagree on ignoring the trolls, it simply doesn't work.....it has been tried. Reminds me of the school bully in the playground beating up some kid. Unless the teacher steps in and removes the bully, the bullying will continue. As you have seen here, the trolls have many alias and many strategies to engage unsuspecting members. imo the mods need to stop the troll before he becomes a full blown problem.

[Céline]

imo the mods need to stop the troll before he becomes a full blown problem.

i completely agree...but i also feel the members should have more responsibility...not sure how that could be applied... perhaps more control over their own threads?

[sjkted]

i completely agree...but i also feel the members should have more responsibility...not sure how that could be applied... perhaps more control over their own threads?

I agree also. This forum needs to support a welcoming environment to newcomers and forum veterans. If the atmosphere starts to resemble a tavern brawl, many of our brightest members will simply go elsewhere.

--sjkted

[TRANCOSO]

A troll is a troll is a troll is a troll. If you've seen one, you've seen 'm all. Recognizing them is knowing them. You must be either pretty despared, or get (very well) paid by one the alphabetsoup agencies to become a troll though.
I'm going to say something radical. I'm beginning to wonder whether we would be better off without moderators. Just let members handle issues of rudeness themselves.
I don't think that will work. Also it's an invitation to everyone with bad & sad intentions to spill their beans at PA.

[Seashore]

Okay I asked for a discussion and I got it!

Thank you.

I feel that a lot of the problem with trolls has been more the members' responses to the trolls than it has been the trolls' posts themselves!

[burgundia]

imo the mods need to stop the troll before he becomes a full blown problem.

But as you have probably noticed the mods see them only after they have been exposed by other members...or...they have to wait for an opporunity to ban them...

[waitinginthewings]

Okay I asked for a discussion and I got it!

Thank you.

I feel that a lot of the problem with trolls has been more the members' responses to the trolls than it has been the trolls' posts themselves!

Seashore: the troll posts baiting questions, & a member who is not yet aware of the game being played, will answer the trolls question nicely, respectfully, and another baiting question comes back in return......so this is how it begins, the purpose being to stir conflict, disrupt, frustrate the members posting. How is that the good members problem. I think it is necessary to place the blame fairly where it belongs and not deflect it onto the good members here.

[Seashore]

Another thing is that I feel that the trolls are just going to keep on coming back using whatever it is they do to come back and I think banning them just gives temporary relief.

We've really and truly ignored them in the past and it hasn't worked?

[Moxie]

Exactly Seashore, your post#6, is how I've also witnessed what's gone down. Without all the responses to "trolls", the troll's posts would just hang there on the page, correct?

Maybe we need a RANT CENTRAL thread ... at least that one would not need bumping.

[Antonia]

I agree with Seashore regarding the fact that it all seems to be decending in to really petty stuff...but I think the moderators are just doing their jobs and every one is thankfully opinionated and here to voice thier opinions... which is what a forum is surely about??? Where we all debate and listen to to totally opposit views as well as views that concur with our own.. this is how we enrich our selves with more questions, knowledge and challages...
But all this name calling (Trolls) and mud slinging??? Hello? What ever happened to all things being connected and sacred in their connection to Source... whether positive or negitive??? All part of the great all that is??
Surely this holiday season is about peace and love... Surely our human evolution is about empathy and live and let let live? Tollerance and open mindedness .... can every one just take a chill pill and big groupe hug for heavens sake??? This is a united forum??? and it should take a really dasterdly deed to be banned .. surely a warning or a repremand first??

I know the energies on the planet are very confused at the moment and much pent up energy is being released... me.. I'm as guilly of getting caught up in tight criticle self righteousness as much as any one .. I have been horrible to my poor 11 year old yesterday exploding in anger about her critisising my own messy house?? I'm trying to make it up to her and reflect on the energies around at the moment but please every one just take a step back and lets all look in the mirror and stop being criticle... I'm concentrating on Joy..peace .. love and blessings.. laughter and fortitude and much much light to you all.. what ever your opinions are!! I mean this from the bottom of my heart... We all need to get over our selves and laugh out loud!! And toast in the new year!!:original::welcomeani::roll1::lmao::original ::thumb_yello:

[burgundia]

So why do so many memebrs engage in serious discussions with the trolls instead of ignoring them? They even make friends with the trolls, pity them and offer emotional support...:shocked: and the trolls are having fun...mocking some more gullible members and then openly admitting it...
(but at least they provide fun from time to time...:lmfao:)

[waitinginthewings]

Another thing is that I feel that the trolls are just going to keep on coming back using whatever it is they do to come back and I think banning them just gives temporary relief.

We've really and truly ignored them in the past and it hasn't worked?

I agree with you on both points......the truth is that trolls have a specific mission, & that is to disrupt, frustrate, denigrate as much as possible before they get banned. They know before they even start here that they will be banned. Its a big game to them. No amount of ignoring them works....its been tried already.....like I posted before, they are the school ground bullies.....they keep doing it, until someone stops them.

The question becomes how do we stop them before they even start. There not interested in spiritual lessons, its been tried also.

[Seashore]

a member who is not yet aware of the game being played, will answer the trolls question nicely, respectfully, and another baiting question comes back in return......

I feel that this is part of the learning process for new people. This is the school of hard knocks. The real world. People will learn the hard way - the best way.

Also, we can help each other out with private messages.

[burgundia]

I feel that this is part of the learning process for new people. This is the school of hard knocks. The real world. People will learn the hard way - the best way.

Also, we can help each other out with private messages.

Old memebers fall for that too....

[Seashore]

Old memebers fall for that too....

Old members can learn new tricks! :original: :thumb_yello:

[metaw3]

I've been founder, and/or mod, and/or admin of a number of forums. Except for one, they were much smaller than this one and I can guarantee you that without mods this forum cannot survive. The main problem is its popularity AND it's free for posting. The little fee to post was the best moderation. When you put down money, you value what you do. There's no better moderation. Now that it's free, you get people posting who don't give a **** about the forum because they didn't work (put money) for using it. So based on my past experiences I think that right now is a critical moment for the survival of this forum. It will obviously won't go back to paid subscriptions and its popularity will increase with more careless posters everyday. My advice to the leading team is to take the ATS forums as an example. This is the best example I've seen on the net of a forum who managed to survive its popularity. I think if each mod here gets an account on ATS and start using their forums, you will get the feeling of what Avalon could be if it managed to survive its popularity and gratuity. BTW, I'm not an ATS member and I assumed it is free for posting. Correct me if I'm wrong. Anyway, check their TOS and get a feel of what it is to be a new member there. I'm sure it will help to figure moderation and rules here.

[Zeddo]

I can guarantee you that without mods this forum cannot survive.
The main problem is its popularity AND it's free for posting.
The little fee to post was the best moderation. When you put down money, you value what you do.

Thank you Metaw, this is exactly what I was going to say...the sooner we have a fee applied again, the better.
Personally, I need to question why the sub was removed, and I feel it was more than just plain benevolence.

Z

[burgundia]

Personally, I need to question why the sub was removed, and I feel it was more than just plain benevolence.

Z
:naughty:

[Stargazer1965]

Hmm...how do I write this??

Aren't we the ones that go on about upsetting the status quo??

Aren't we supposedly the enlightened??

Why should leading questions bother us....or maybe we should question ourselves more often??

Maybe someone swimming against the current is a good thing and our emotional responses are what make us human....and they may be our downfall.

Maybe we need to redefine TROLL

It seems to be hedging toward ...DOES NOT AGREE WITH THE REST OF US

When it should be just a plain ole abusive person.

I feel like a psych student now....Later Gators

[Anchor]

The problem with characterizing anyone as a TROLL is that it is immediately prejudicial.

We banned a lot of people recently. When we were subscription there were very few actions against members. The forum is a free for all and we cannot rely on more than several thousand members to simply "ignore". That would be naive (ideal I agree). A lot of members always think they can do better than the moderators we get endless posts telling us how to do our work. Some of it is useful, some of it make me cringe.

Some people come here to learn - others come to make fun at our expense.

The moderators are damned if they do and damned if they dont. We tried to increase the numbers of moderators, mainly to increase coverage, but also to avoid charges of "tyranny" - we try to avoid bans without internal debate. Sometimes it isnt possible.

There is no way we can do our jobs without the ability to eject people intent of working against the mission of the forum.

Note people are not ejected because they are disruptive -we need disruptive people. The new ideas and input I have seen here since the subscription requirement was lifted is fantastic. The staus quo was getting old. The new stuff is fantastic.

It comes at a price. Enforcement is sometimes needed.

Most people are banned/ejected ultimately because it is obvious that they are intent on causing harm to what avalon and camelot are supposed to be: respectful discussion forums.

It is not about censorship - but I would say that, and I remember warning all the moderators that when we ban or remove posts that is what we get accused of. Goes with the turf. Cant do anything about it.

If the moderators cease to act to keep the forum on track - then I am pretty sure the forum will slowly become useless and all the remaining people that were tenacious enough to stick with it would eventually leave.

A..

[Majorion]

Have to admit, sometimes I reply to trolls in the hope of changing their minds. It's obvious when they are being provocative, but nevertheless.

These people don't perceive themselves trolls, they think they are doing justice of some sort, but perhaps if it can be established (with them) that they are doing something wrong, and I know it's a long shot with some people, but if you can actually get someone to understand from another perspective, you might hit the jackpot.

Easier said than done, I know.

With some people there is no negotiation, no debate, no room for any opinion sharing, and it becomes evident very quickly. If a pertinent query is not even acknowledged, well there you go!

[New Age Messiah]

Respectful adult conversation is boring, to me anyway.

Very few people are respectable, so it's kinda dishonest to pretend to respect them.

Put it this way, to respect what they say, no matter how silly or petty or wrong or WHATEVER, it is, is dishonest.

[Brian En]

I have no idea who the trolls are here, so I have to rely on the mods to moderate the boards. I like that these boards are here for me to learn from youse that have been at this a lot longer than I have. I'm all for tossing out the trolls, they do little for the fuctionality of any board. I used to be a member of another board that was totally overrun by an invasion of trolls that attracted even more trolls which led to the deletion of that board.

[New Age Messiah]

I'm all for tossing out the trolls, they do little for the fuctionality of any board.

I think the OP was trying to address regular posters who are drawn to the site for the right reasons, and then personality things or whatever come up, and then it's "forum rules".

All subjective rules can be perverted or misused depending on "who" someone is or whatever. There are always clique type forces and emotional bonding and groupthink type things, that cause some people to be protected and others to be rejected.

[Brian En]

The trolls I'm referring to the ones that come here for the sole reason to cause trouble. As for everything else, that's up to the people involved. If they can't come to a resolution then maybe a mod should step in. We're adults who agreed to the forum rules. We may not agree to the rules, but by clicking that submit button we have agreed to follow the rules.


I'll know more if and when I get into a dispute here.

[Anchor]

I'll know more if and when I get into a dispute here.

Uh-oh.... but you are from Canada - so at least you'll be nice about it :D :naughty:

[Brian En]

Uh-oh.... but you are from Canada - so at least you'll be nice about it :D :naughty:



Yah. I'm always nice during disputes. It's the Canadian curse.

[Seashore]

TtC published a private message from BROOK on a thread, did he not? What happened there?

[Anchor]

Seashore - I remember that. Brook actually made some comment about it at the time.

The issue was not pressed.

The forum's treatment of Ttc - another dark episode of our history. Within two or three posts he was accused outright of trying to start a cult.

A..

[Seashore]

Seashore - I remember that. Brook actually made some comment about it at the time.

The issue was not pressed.

The forum's treatment of Ttc - another dark episode of our history. Within two or three posts he was accused outright of trying to start a cult.

A..

My point in raising the issue is to open a discussion of banning francie for posting an email but not banning TtC for posting a private message. Not that I want TtC banned. That's not the point either!

What about the fact that TtC posted a private message on a thread - which is grounds for banning - not banning him - but banning francie? What's the rationale?

[Anchor]

Seashore,

the moderators are not consistent. You can work hard at prooving that but you dont need to, I will admit it right up front.

What we do, is try our best.

What's the rationale? Probably context and what was disclosed and what else was happening at the time.

A..

[Seashore]

What's the rationale? Probably context and what was disclosed and what else was happening at the time.



My response to your answer is to say that the context of the banning of francie was not just, and she should be re-instated.

[Luana]

What was disclosed was the Truth. It's really time to let this rest and allow Francie back.
Please :wub2:

[Bilko]

The problem with characterizing anyone as a TROLL is that it is immediately prejudicial.

We banned a lot of people recently. When we were subscription there were very few actions against members. The forum is a free for all and we cannot rely on more than several thousand members to simply "ignore". That would be naive (ideal I agree). A lot of members always think they can do better than the moderators we get endless posts telling us how to do our work. Some of it is useful, some of it make me cringe.

Some people come here to learn - others come to make fun at our expense.

The moderators are damned if they do and damned if they dont. We tried to increase the numbers of moderators, mainly to increase coverage, but also to avoid charges of "tyranny" - we try to avoid bans without internal debate. Sometimes it isnt possible.

There is no way we can do our jobs without the ability to eject people intent of working against the mission of the forum.

Note people are not ejected because they are disruptive -we need disruptive people. The new ideas and input I have seen here since the subscription requirement was lifted is fantastic. The staus quo was getting old. The new stuff is fantastic.

It comes at a price. Enforcement is sometimes needed.

Most people are banned/ejected ultimately because it is obvious that they are intent on causing harm to what avalon and camelot are supposed to be: respectful discussion forums.

It is not about censorship - but I would say that, and I remember warning all the moderators that when we ban or remove posts that is what we get accused of. Goes with the turf. Cant do anything about it.

If the moderators cease to act to keep the forum on track - then I am pretty sure the forum will slowly become useless and all the remaining people that were tenacious enough to stick with it would eventually leave.

A..
Having been a moderator over on spiritual forums i completely agree with what you have said. If you could see the constant barrage of negativity and disruption directed to forums such as this without the shield of hard working moderators you might agree too. If anything i believe that when it comes to the decorum and moral of the forum i believe the moderators have been lenient.

In order for a forum to progress in a particular direction ie positive or forward, there must be a mechanism in place to stop it slipping in the wrong direction.

[Seashore]

Having been a moderator over on spiritual forums i completely agree with what you have said. If you could see the constant barrage of negativity and disruption directed to forums such as this without the shield of hard working moderators you might agree too. If anything i believe that when it comes to the decorum and moral of the forum i believe the moderators have been lenient.

In order for a forum to progress in a particular direction ie positive or forward, there must be a mechanism in place to stop it slipping in the wrong direction.

What is your position on the banning of francie?

[Stargazer1965]

Mods....I am coming from a users position here even though I am a systems admin in the real world.

I don't like second guessing anyone and I understand in the admin world we do things that we are told to do and asked not to question.

I read back over the last posts of Francie....Was she banned for what is here or something that was removed???

Thanks for any response.

[Bilko]

What is your position on the banning of francie?

Sorry for the late reply seashore.
My response was in reply to your first post in this thread about members running the forum themselves. I am a new member here so can't comment on any past actions by members or mods without searching for and reading up on the case history.
My leniency quote was directed at thread i read yesterday concerning a member who suggested all homosexual people are pedophiles. The thread ended with a 7 day ban.

Sorry for any confusion.

[Seashore]

I am a new member here so can't comment on any past actions by members or mods without searching for and reading up on the case history.


Okay thanks.

[Anchor]

What was disclosed was the Truth.

So what?

I am sure there are lots of private messages that contain "truth".

I get told the truth a lot in private messages. I just had quite a lot of that today - unpleasant truths. I won't be making any of this truth public just because its the truth.

The system we operate in deserves us to respect that PRIVATE MESSAGES are private unless permission is given to make it public.

A..

[Seashore]

What was disclosed was the Truth. So what?

Project Camelot and Project Avalon are initiatives that exist for the purpose of establishing the truth about public issues.

The subject matter contained in the email posted by the banned member in question was alluded to by Bill Ryan as justification for his position taken in a debate on a thread. Debates have two sides and do not get resolved if only one side is fully presented.

Shutting out the other side is not going to end this debate.

[truth and integrity]

Originally posted by seashore
Debates have two sides and do not get resolved if only one side is fully presented.
Shutting out the other side is not going to end this debate.


Exactly. It is so sad that franciejones can not speak up for herself and present her point of view. Secondly, it maybe justified that mods removed an e-mail that Bill’s sent to her. However, why they removed her post where she requested her name to be removed from The Round Table. This action can not be justified at all.:nono:

Best regards,

[suricatt]

Interesting debate... I haven't read anything posted by Francie, so I can't comment on those issues. However, being an unfortunate (or maybe not) participant in the Tokyo Rose paedophilia thread, I would like to commend the quick action taken by Karen and Anchor.

This being said, I'm quite dubious the 7 day ban is sufficient. My point being someone like Tokyo Rose who so openly condemns/judges others living by different rules will most probably strike back in one form or another once he/she returns.

The debate on so called trolls is important for the future of this forum. Do we want to allow hatred of others and preconceived ideas to pollute our conversations here? I.e. do we really want to talk about separation? Wasn't the creation of this area initially motivated by the concept of togetherness?

Everyone is entitled to their own ideas, however no one wants/deserves to be slapped and kicked in the face because of who they are, how they live, or what they believe. The moderators are a primordial part of this forum.

It's not acceptable to me to ignore blatant hatred and disrespect. I like to stand up for myself, for who I am. Don’t you like doing the same for yourself? Should we not stand up for what this forum is all about?

Well, that's my 2 cents worth. ;-)

[Spregovori]

What we do, is try our best.



To make what you do more easier:

- forum membership becomes invite only
- it is still free to join
- it is still read-only to non members
- if the invitee fails to comply with forum guide-lines 2 people get banned = the invitee and the inviter

Implementing this might help...but it will reduce the "diversity"

[tacodog]

My response to your answer is to say that the context of the banning of francie was not just, and she should be re-instated.

I know the Mods are overworked and under appreciated, but I have to agree with Seashore on this one. Truth and disclosure comes in a variety of ways...if it didn't, there wouldn't be any.

[Seashore]

On the issue of trolls, we could all agree to ignore them.



When I use the word "troll," I mean to refer to paid parallel government agents only - not people who have issues and come across as provocative in their posts.

It seems that people on the forum are using the word "troll" to refer to anyone who is difficult. And again, I think all of us members (including me of course) need to work on how we respond to posts and not look to moderators to ban unpleasant people from the forum.

[Seashore]

In my opinion, Project Camelot and Project Avalon are a part of alternative journalism. Therefore, I feel that those who are in decision-making functions at Project Camelot and Project Avalon have a responsibility to protect free speech.

In my opinion, the banning of franciejones is a free speech issue because the sequence of events leading up to the action taken against her involved a very public issue of importance: is Dr Bill Deagle a paid disinfo agent?

This post on my part is to register my protest for what I feel is improper stifling of healthy debate about an important public affairs issue.

[UncleJohn]

When I use the word "troll," I mean to refer to paid parallel government agents only - not people who have issues and come across as provocative in their posts.

It seems that people on the forum are using the word "troll" to refer to anyone who is difficult. And again, I think all of us members (including me of course) need to work on how we respond to posts and not look to moderators to ban unpleasant people from the forum.

The word "troll" on groups and forums has a very definite meaning. A troll is a post by someone with the intent to extract a emotional reaction. In other words, they are fishing for a bite.

Sometimes this technique is used to disrupt, but mostly it is by someone playing head games with others, or attempting to attract attention to themselves or to validate their positions by bullying.

"Paid parallel government agents" are much in the minority of trollers on net.

The PC mods are not trying to suppress anyone's free speech other that attempting to keep the discussions here civil and somewhat on focus.

[Seashore]

In my opinion, Project Camelot and Project Avalon are a part of alternative journalism. Therefore, I feel that those who are in decision-making functions at Project Camelot and Project Avalon have a responsibility to protect free speech.

In my opinion, the banning of franciejones is a free speech issue because the sequence of events leading up to the action taken against her involved a very public issue of importance: is Dr Bill Deagle a paid disinfo agent?

This post on my part is to register my protest for what I feel is improper stifling of healthy debate about an important public affairs issue. The word "troll" on groups and forums has a very definite meaning. A troll is a post by someone with the intent to extract a emotional reaction. In other words, they are fishing for a bite.

Sometimes this technique is used to disrupt, but mostly it is by someone playing head games with others, or attempting to attract attention to themselves or to validate their positions by bullying.

"Paid parallel government agents" are much in the minority of trollers on net.

The PC mods are not trying to suppress anyone's free speech other that attempting to keep the discussions here civil and somewhat on focus.

I do not believe franciejones fits into the category of "troll" as you lay out here and I repeat my protest - for what it's worth.

[Seashore]

TtC published a private message from BROOK on a thread, did he not? What happened there? Seashore - I remember that. Brook actually made some comment about it at the time.

The issue was not pressed.

The forum's treatment of Ttc - another dark episode of our history. Within two or three posts he was accused outright of trying to start a cult.

A.. My point in raising the issue is to open a discussion of banning francie for posting an email but not banning TtC for posting a private message. Not that I want TtC banned. That's not the point either!

What about the fact that TtC posted a private message on a thread - which is grounds for banning - not banning him - but banning francie? What's the rationale? Seashore,

the moderators are not consistent. You can work hard at prooving that but you dont need to, I will admit it right up front.

What we do, is try our best.

What's the rationale? Probably context and what was disclosed and what else was happening at the time.

A..


Trolls are one thing. The banning of franciejones is something else.

This issue has not gone away – despite the deafening silence.

[Seashore]

From Bill Ryan's thread:

Do Moderators monitor this thread in any organized fashion? Or is it "catch as catch can"? seashore - use the report button and the moderators get flagged.

I know; I've used it.

Actually, I'm curious about the forum, in general.

Is there any organization of the Moderators concerning coverage of the board?