Capitalism, Sustainability, and the Possibility of Global Collapse

[historycircus]

I have some thoughts on the economy that I would love to get some responses to:

First: Capitalism (and I'm using a narrow, economic definition: a market system subject to the laws of supply and demand) was born out of colonialism. The death knell of fuedalistic mercantilism was the "discovery" of two continents; one filled with gold, the other with abundant naval resources, and both with potential sources of labor. Capitalism was born through the physical exapansion of nations and resource exploitation.

Second: The very expansion that gave rise to the market systems now practiced globally is required to sustain this particular economic system. Capitalism is unsustainable without continued growth. The economist Keynes understood this very well, and his views drove the expansion of global Capitalism in the last half of the 20th century - despite the weakness of Keynesian economics exposed by the abusrdities of "Regeanomics" in the 1980s. "Rising tides lift all boats" thinking has limped along regardless - for whatever reason (insert illuminati theories here if you wish) - and expansion still means the acquisition of more resources, more territory, etc. What do most economists, politicians, and CEOs agree will spark most of the wars in the 21st Century? Natural resources - primarily fossil fuels and arable land. Capitalism does not necessarily mandate conquest, but that is how it came to be, how it exists today, and is predicted by most involved to continue.

Third: If we were to wake up tomorrow, and all the mechanisms of Capitalism were forever gone, would that really be a bad thing? So what if the dollar collapses? So what if the power goes out and grocery stores run out of food? Such a chaotic event would certainly lead to immediate wide-spread death and destruction on the planet, but is that really any worse than the orderly, well planned death and destruction we have today? The "economic collapse" as spoken of in the mainstream and alternative media is not deserving of the panic it commands.

Just some thoughts - let me know what you think.

[gwynned]

Third: If we were to wake up tomorrow, and all the mechanisms of Capitalism were forever gone, would that really be a bad thing? So what if the dollar collapses? So what if the power goes out and grocery stores run out of food? Such a chaotic event would certainly lead to immediate wide-spread death and destruction on the planet, but is that really any worse than the orderly, well planned death and destruction we have today? The "economic collapse" as spoken of in the mainstream and alternative media is not deserving of the panic it commands.

Just some thoughts - let me know what you think.

Well said, though I note few responses to your succint analysis. The last time we were so close to collapse, FDR stepped in, created some safety nets for the people and got the US involved in a war, which is what really got the economy back up and running - albeit after it killed about 50 million people. Prior to all that, revolution was in the air, their were labor strikes, and an awakened and angry public. FDR convinced the world that capitalism could be fixed. I hope now, we can at least see that a system based on profit is inherently unsustainable and brutal, one which cannot and should not be 'fixed.'

[historycircus]

That is the kicker about FDR, not only did he convince them that it could be fixed, he side-stepped others who were asking whether or not it should be fixed. There was actually a pretty healthy debate about that in the 1930s, and some communinst party members were actually elected to governerships and other positions - believe it or not, primarily in the West. It was an opportunity lost, and does seem to fit with claims about FDR's involvement with a NWO/illuminati/world banking shadow group.

What is sad is that when these fundamental questions about Capitalism are raised in mainstream arenas, the timeless insult of "communist" gets flung - even in the so-called "left-wing media."

Thanks for the reply, I was getting lonly.

[gwynned]

What is sad is that when these fundamental questions about Capitalism are raised in mainstream arenas, the timeless insult of "communist" gets flung - even in the so-called "left-wing media."

Thanks for the reply, I was getting lonly.

Thanks for the post, as I was getting lonely. Stumbled upon this article by a guy named Richard Moore. Don't know who he is really, but he often writes things of relevance and the below ties in well with what you and I (presumably alone!) are discussing (and how could FDR be anything BUT a member of the illuminati!):

We are living in 'interesting times'


I mean 'interesting times' in the sense of the traditional Chinese curse – may you live in interesting times. Thus one might say, the sacking of Rome was interesting, or the Nazi era in Germany was interesting. These were times when major changes were afoot – but not times one would necessarily choose to live through oneself. We today, however, have no choice. The whole world is passing through 'interesting times', and the changes afoot are profound.


Consider for example the recent conflict in Georgia, and the sudden polarization that has arisen between Washington and Moscow. The Western mainstream media has been presenting those events in a very distorted, propagandistic way, so it's not obvious on the surface what really happened in Georgia, what is the meaning of Russia's response, and what is the meaning of Washington's response to Russia's response.


The first thing to realize is that everything that is happening around Georgia has been planned out well in advance by the usual suspects in Washington. The events have not in any sense been caused by tensions in the Caucus, rather those tensions have provided a convenient venue for Washington to pursue its grand designs. Washington armed and trained the Georgian forces, and in the weeks prior to Georgia's attack on South Ossetia, US & Georgian forces engaged in joint military exercises. This has been a 'psy-op' – an incident arranged by the US in an attempt to demonize and isolate Russia.
The second thing to realize is that Russia has no interest whatsoever in conflict. By this I don't mean 'Russia is good', but rather 'Russia is sensible'. The conflicts now and to come are entirely the creation of US/UK/EU elites, in their pursuit of global domination. The Georgian attack on South Ossetia was as if Serbia were to attack the capital of Kosovo – and you can imagine the violence of the US/NATO retaliation against Serbia if that were to happen. The Russian response, by contrast, was not at all disproportionate.
The third thing to realize – and this is well known in both Washington and Moscow – is that the US has been preparing for many years to carry out a nuclear first-strike against Russia. That's what Reagan's 'Star Wars' was about, and the thread continues to space-based lasers, new kinds of tactical nukes, US bases surrounding Russia and China, radar stations in the Czech Republic, and the missiles in Poland.
The fourth thing to realize is the reason why this first strike is critical to US/EU elite interests. Without it, the overwhelming balance of global power will shift to Eurasia, to Russia and China. Eurasia is growing rapidly economically and structurally, while the US & EU are in terminal economic decline – and these trends are not going to change without decisive military intervention.


The US has always been very clever about the wars it's gotten into, always managing to blame its own aggression and conquest on the victim. Pearl Harbor is the most famous example – the Day of Infamy. We now know that President Roosevelt schemed systematically to provoke the Japanese to the point where they had no choice but to respond militarily. We know that the Japanese codes had been broken, the lookouts sent home, and Pearl Harbor left intentionally undefended. Roosevelt knew exactly when the attack was going to happen, and sent the strategically important aircraft carriers out to sea and safety. Those left in the harbor were sacrificed as so many pawns in an anti-Japanese psy-op so that America could enter the war as 'the good guy', 'the offended party'. Infamy indeed.


The US is now pursuing that same basic script with Russia. The Georgian incident was merely the opening salvo. The plan is to poke the Russian Bear again and again, each time forcing it to roar and swipe with its military claws. Each time it swipes, that will be another 'proof' of Russian aggressiveness. The radar and missile installations are pokes, and other pokes could be delivered by admitting the Ukraine to NATO or by imposing a blockade on Iran. If the US tries to rebuild Georgia's military, that is a poke Russia has already said it would swipe at.
These 'pokes' would be like Russia installing nuclear missiles in Cuba or Mexico, and one can understand why Washington could not tolerate that, and would take the installations out with so-called 'precision' bombing raids – for justifiable defensive reasons. Similarly, Russia is likely to take out the missiles in Poland, just before they are scheduled to be operational. Except in this case Russia will be accused by the West of carrying out an unprovoked attack on a sovereign nation that had 'done nothing wrong'. All hail the power of spin.


This game of 'poke and swipe' is entirely under the control of Washington. They can pace the pokes, and their severity, depending on how far the Pentagon has progressed with its first-strike weapons systems. When the systems are all go, the US can deliver a big poke, the kind that might cause Russia to sink one of the Pentagon's big carriers. Then with a cry of "Russia started it", the first strike would be launched – indeed the stealth B1's would probably be airborne before the carrier even gets hit.


I'm not saying nuclear war is absolutely inevitable, but it is more likely in the near future than it ever was during the Cold War. In those days the US was content to isolate Russia, so that US and its 'allies' could have a free hand exploiting the so-called 'Free World'. Mutual assured destruction worked fine for that era. But now the US has strong reasons to want to actually destroy Russia, and is clearly pursuing that agenda militarily, diplomatically, and with psy-ops. This new era of polarization, created by Washington and threatening armageddon, is one of the profound changes now afoot in our world.


There's not room here to go into similar detail with each of the other profound changes, so I'll summarize some of them for now:


• The current 'economic slump', or 'credit crisis', is not a cyclic phenomenon, as they're trying to make us believe. Rather these things are the beginning of profound, historic, economic shifts. We will not return again to 'business as usual'; things are going get much worse for us in the West economically.
For one thing, we are seeing the mantle of capitalist hegemony moving from the US & Europe to China. Similarly, beginning in the late 1800s, the mantle passed from Imperial Britain to America. Earlier it passed from the Dutch Provinces to an emerging British Empire, and before that from the Genoese banking network to the Dutch Provinces. That's the nature of capitalism: each round of capital accumulation ends up unintentionally financing a successor hegemonic power.
At the same time, capitalism as-a-whole is running up against global limits it has never had to deal with before. Obviously growth cannot continue forever on a finite planet with finite resources, and we are now at the point where the unstoppable force is colliding with the immovable object.


• US and EU elites are absolutely committed to creating a centralized EU government, with all semblance of sovereignty removed from national governments, and with no democratic accountability. The European Commission, which wields all the power in Brussels, is not elected, and it takes its orders from financial elites. There are two major objectives behind this drive for centralization.
The first objective is to impose neoliberal policies on all of Europe – total privatization, low corporate taxes, deregulation of corporate abuses, drastic reductions in public services and welfare payments, etc. While the very rich will continue to get richer, the general standard of living in the EU will be declining down toward third-world levels. As usual, the future can be seen first in the USA, whose cities are filled with the homeless and with crime, and where something like 40% of the population lacks adequate access to health care. This is the response of Western elites to the economic shifts that are underway globally – pass the suffering on to the general population.
The second objective is to turn the EU into an imperialist military power, most likely involving conscription, so that EU elites can play a more active role in the geopolitical games that will be unfolding – assuming armageddon is somehow avoided. Already Ireland has given up its traditional neutrality, with its hosting of US military and rendition flights, and its participation in imperialist occupation operations, euphemistically called 'peacekeeping missions'.


The people of Ireland are to be congratulated for their wisdom in voting No to the Lisbon Treaty, but we need to be prepared for the same wolf to return in different clothing. He was rebuffed in his Constitutional garb and his Lisbon garb, but he'll be back more determined than ever, huffing and puffing and threatening to blow our houses down if we don't let him in. The Irish government is loyal not to us but to Brussels, so they'll be doing all they can to sneak the wolf in the back door.

[Northboy]

A little capitalism doesn't hurt.

Its just when it gets out of the marketplace and affects infrastructure that we run into problems.

Very insightful post though and it leads me to get a bit of an epiphany on some other issues.Thought provoking.

Thanks for the conjure.

[historycircus]

Excellent article, and thank you for posting.

I heard Condy Rice's spiel the other day on NPR, where she said Russia was on a path to "self imposed isolation and international irrelevance." Puhleeez . . .

Russia controls one of the largest natural gas reserves on the planet at a time when fossil fuel use has YET to reach its peak. Putin could moon the United States delegate on the floor of the UN, and still command more "relevance" than say, France or Spain in the world. The same could be said for China, with its manufacturing and banking explosion. Both China and Russia don't really have to respond to any criticism from the West - they don't have to. That fits with what the author said about war provoked by the west.

What are your thoughts on Benjamin Fulford, and his views of the east-west economic dichotomy that has emerged since the fall of the Berlin Wall?

[Zynox]

It seems to me that the most life saving humanity centric event possible, in this moment, would be for the US fiscal system to be abandoned or collapsed, through either chaos or orchestration (which may be the same thing).

I say this because it might reduce the insanity of war in many forms, such as direct physical conflict and the more subtle economic hitman type conflicts, which lead to the same ends, human suffering.

This is why the Ron Paul campaign was an interesting curiosity for me to ponder, as, to remove the IRS and the Federal Reserve, his stated goals, was effectively to remove most of the government itself, leading towards PEACE, similar to the storyline in the fabulous book Cra$hmaker.

Lease Peace

~ namaste ~

[Carol]

It seems to me that the most life saving humanity centric event possible, in this moment, would be for the US fiscal system to be abandoned or collapsed, through either chaos or orchestration (which may be the same thing).

I say this because it might reduce the insanity of war in many forms, such as direct physical conflict and the more subtle economic hitman type conflicts, which lead to the same ends, human suffering.

This is why the Ron Paul campaign was an interesting curiosity for me to ponder, as, to remove the IRS and the Federal Reserve, his stated goals, was effectively to remove most of the government itself, leading towards PEACE, similar to the storyline in the fabulous book Cra$hmaker.

Lease Peace

~ namaste ~

I have always loved Ron Paul and was exceptionally irritated that he was dismissed out of hand by the "controlled" media. For this nation to get back on its financial feet it indeed needs to get rid of the IRS and those bansters, the Federal Reserve.

[matrix]

It seems to me that the most life saving humanity centric event possible, in this moment, would be for the US fiscal system to be abandoned or collapsed, through either chaos or orchestration (which may be the same thing).

I say this because it might reduce the insanity of war in many forms, such as direct physical conflict and the more subtle economic hitman type conflicts, which lead to the same ends, human suffering.


~ namaste ~

Absolutely agree - The only social economic system consistent with human rights is unrestricted, unregulated, laissez-faire - with a separation of state (including any 'shadow government!) and economics. It will only be after the demise (manufactured, chaos, or not) of Capitalism that a new system will form. This is not a process that can be spelled out, it must be literally a conceptual leap – in other words starting off on a different level of thinking - creatively. In such a system the state must have its power strictly limited, it will have to be designed in such a way as to protect the rights (life, liberty, property etc) of its citizens.

greetings

[Zynox]

Wow,

This thread brings me comfort as we civilly dialog and present.
Quick, we need an instigator to get it off track and heated!

My deep concern is with orchestration, yet it remains my great hope, in glorious paradox.

I think we have a chaotic universe and economic microcosm, whereby the Knights feel they can direct and maneuver it in their intended directions, such as a collapse to provide a global control of increased intensity. While it has been a grueling His-Story of continual and advancing oppression, perhaps we are all alive NOW to witness the real transitions, a free and loving market of exchange based on respect and sovereignty, perhaps I'm delusional too. I DUNNO!

I do know I don't want to subsist/exist on the backs of 1, 2, 4, 8, 16 or any other number of '3rd' world slaves, whether they be in the US (soon?) or anywhere on the globe, so for me, I'm super-down-sizing, I wanna be a wisp with a micro-footprint.

~ namaste / Got a Plan? ~

[historycircus]

I'm glad this thread fills you with positivity Zynox.

There is some great work out there for reading if you are interested in learning about exchange, or pre-capitalist, economies. THE BEST, the book that sort of changed my life, is a book by French Anthropologist Maurice Godelier titled "The Mental and the Material." He has another book out, "The Enigma of the Gift," which is partly his own views on gift giving, and partly a critique of another, early twentieth century anthropologist named Marcel Mauss. One other name worth mentioning is Claude Meiliaseux [sic - I never can spell the guy's name right unless I'm looking at it, sorry], who wrote "The Anthropology of Slavery," and "Maidens, Meal, and Money." All of these works give insight into the process called "articulation," which is the way exchange/pre-capitalist economies succumb to external market forces.

I'm also going to instant messenge you on another point, so as not to derail the thread.

[Zynox]

Thanks for the book recommendations HistoryCircus,

My favorite read on future look from current money replacement endeavors is Health Money Healthy Planet.

~ namaste / Got Ideas? ~

[gwynned]

Excellent article, and thank you for posting.

I heard Condy Rice's spiel the other day on NPR, where she said Russia was on a path to "self imposed isolation and international irrelevance." Puhleeez . . .

Russia controls one of the largest natural gas reserves on the planet at a time when fossil fuel use has YET to reach its peak. Putin could moon the United States delegate on the floor of the UN, and still command more "relevance" than say, France or Spain in the world. The same could be said for China, with its manufacturing and banking explosion. Both China and Russia don't really have to respond to any criticism from the West - they don't have to. That fits with what the author said about war provoked by the west.

What are your thoughts on Benjamin Fulford, and his views of the east-west economic dichotomy that has emerged since the fall of the Berlin Wall?

A lesser evil would have choked on her words, but Condee managed to twist the truth quite convincingly to those who continue to believe that the US is the greatest nation on earth. Glad you mentioned that speech. I nearly swerved off the road into a tree just to quell the rage and disgust I felt listening to her.

I watched the Fulford video on teh China quake many times. IF it was due to HAARP, the Chinese are certainly aware, but have chosen to do nothing, perhaps they recognize that time is on their side.

Every time I hear or see something about the Berlin Wall I'm reminded by the prophetic lyrics of Leonard Cohen written, I think, almost 15 years ago:

Give me back the Berlin wall
give me Stalin and St Paul
I've seen the future, brother:
it is murder

It's only recently that I've come to understand that the collapse of the Berlin Wall meant the end to any impediments to rapacious capitalism - at least in the West. One only has to look down south, to events in Venezuela and Bolivia to see that the beast has its limitations.

[Zynox]

I watched the Fulford video on teh China quake many times. IF it was due to HAARP, the Chinese are certainly aware, but have chosen to do nothing, perhaps they recognize that time is on their side.

Perhaps Hurricane Ike was a directed response by the 'Chinese', perhaps all powers are in the game together with 'minor' skirmishes and weather wars, geo-wars almost treated like children playing rock-em sock-em robots, with deadly and nonproductive consequences.

All I am certain of, as fact, is that the laced trails in the skies were not present when I was a child, teen or in my 20s. I first observed them around 1997.

~ namaste / Chem-Trails - Got a Theory?~

[pineal-pilot-in merkabah]

i beleive the current system is defunct now and wil not be recoverable.im not bothered about it crashing apart form the untold suffering of the human population still trapped and asleep in their material prisons. ill justy get on with it whatever comes. i just want to be ready thats all, food, equipment, seeds, survival gear.then get networking inot commune type existences. if we get left alone that is;/

[historycircus]

I too feel sorry for those still asleep, and for those who don't recognize that there are other ways. I think the powers that be have done a great job getting us to use the phrase "free markets" instead of "market system" in reference to Capitalism. Market systems, by their very nature, are already free. The term "free market" is an oxymoron. The "free" has been added to tie it with notions of "freedom," which is patriotic, etc. To challenge the "market system" does not invoke the sentiments of cultural treason quite like challenging "free markets." Because, as we know, challenging "free markets" means that one must support unfree markets, and is therefore an unpatriotic, devil worshipping traitor.

I too want to be prepared before it all goes to ****, and I think many of us will be, and can help those who don't quite get it together in time.

Thanks for your comments

[Zynox]

HistoryCircus,

You have jarred loose a meme for me, in the application of free markets as a phrase. I suppose I fell into a trap on this, as there are a variety of market types, regulated markets, bars and meat markets (smiles), global and local markets, etc. So it felt ok to use the predecessor free with markets, as it seemed to ensure which markets were referenced.

But now, I suspect that you are spot on my friend, I absorbed a meme which I shall endeavor to unmeme (tm). With my inherent respect for sovereignty, I find I have also associated the two, like the free market phrased parasitically attached itself to my deeper core orientation towards all things sovereign.

What I see for the next three to nine weeks is cascading markets, and, impacts across the lands.

~ namaste ~

[historycircus]

You know what is interesting Zynox? I almost used the word "meme" in that last post, and figured it might lose some. But meme it is - for many, Capitalism means exactly that: "free" markets. That is why so many don't want to let go . . .

[historycircus]

As I think about it more, I agree with Zynox - how in the hell can one look at what is going on and conclude something different. The markets are indeed going to head even further south in the coming weeks.

Those counting on liquid currency to prepare - to create those "radiant zones" - need to do that stuff now.

If you have credit cards, you could, if you buy these theories, stockpile, and help those who will find you. When the smoke clears, those companies will not be hunting you down.

[matrix]

You know what is interesting Zynox? I almost used the word "meme" in that last post, and figured it might lose some. But meme it is - for many, Capitalism means exactly that: "free" markets. That is why so many don't want to let go . . .

And is everything BUT free! If you start to think how chasing this illusionary dream has enslaved us...from the personal level, to the fabric of families and nations ... As soon as I think I am free of all restrictive thinking about money/economy/capitalism another meme-bug surfaces from those well conditioned corners of my mind...

[historycircus]

That is how they get you. You carry thier symbols in your wallet. So do I. It was a system designed and imposed on us before our births (unless you're like 80 or something). We are waking up, however, and will soon have a choice. Fair exchange, or exchange for profit? The solace I take from the coming collapse is that that very question will be decided by us. I hope we make the right one.

Keep your cheer and your humor - despite the crap.

[Zynox]

Folks, Friends,

This may turn out to be a long post, I am never certain when I plant the seed how high the tree will grow.

We have somewhat diverted from HistoryCircus' (not sure where to put that apostrophe, the old rules escape me) post, yet I really am enthused by what we are discussing here, so many cool tangents.

I am fortunate (how the hell that happened or why escapes me) to have no debt and a minor preservation of wealth (so far!), 90% in metal. Yet, with all my engagement in research and exposure to great writers and minds, I still get enchanted by the memes, perhaps because they are so numerous and well orchestrated and financed, I DUNNO!

What I have found is most intriging, and that is, statistically unproven, 99.23145 % of the US population doesn't seem to recall honest money, backed by restrictive silver and gold. I routinely give silver dollars as tips when I eat out, and often the 'value' of the tip is 40-90% of the bill. I slip these discretely into the check holder with a business card sized deal that says "Your service has been as precious to me as this genuine silver dollar" and goes on to briefly talk about the shenanigans amplified by fiat paper money, the Federal Reserve and that it all leads to war.

I always glance later, hanging out like a spy, to gauge reactions, and mostly, recipients are excited to hold it, to show it off and usually it passes many hands. All I can conclude from these fun moments is that there is some core gene, some core knowing, some core magnetic attraction by humans to these elusive metals. In the end, as I have exhaustively exposed and expelled here on Avalon, the stuff is a tool, a mechanism to control the government, to limit war and to preserve wealth as we transition, from here/now to there/now.

~ namaste / Attracted to Shiny Metals? ~

[historycircus]

Perhaps silver, gold, and platinum exude a field magnetic (or magic), in conjunction with other magnetic and gravitational fields, that keeps us paying attention - for some reason.

Hell, I don't know.

Honest money has been long gone before you and I were born. Andrew Jackson, despite being a disgusting, racist, Indian hating killer, warned us about transferring our system to paper. He hated Biddle, the father of our central banking system. His hate was probably wrong, but his apprehension about the use of paper, symbolic script seems right on.

[RaKaR]

Capitalism is doomed.

It is a matter of evolution; capitalism should have gone to the next step long ago, that is, the stage whereby some social justice, the environment, the Spiritual needs of People... would be taken into serious consideration.

Only having a Human face - that is evolving into some sort of scientific and technological socialism - could yet save this system and all the good things it could have provided to mankind, provided it would be guided by Reason and not greed alone.

Regards,

RaKaR,
www.futureofmankind.co.uk

[historycircus]

If we face a future where it is up to us to create a new economic system, could we return to the use of the market, or are we better off finding another way? Perhaps a return to principles of exchange? Should we consider some sort of socialism - despite the failures observed in the old USSR?

[Zynox]

If you have credit cards, you could, if you buy these theories, stockpile, and help those who will find you. When the smoke clears, those companies will not be hunting you down.

This theory or conjecture holds at least two risks:

1) I have been sensing the orchestrated collapse for 23 years, so there may be a few tricks and lucky charms still played. One thought on this is they are about ready to bleed the last drops, what would the rush be, maybe they stage 3, 4 or 5 more cycles of doom and totally exhaust all opposition in the process ... this is an antique game played that has gone hyperbolic, but has not concluded.

2) While it is a cool fantasy to extract back from the money changers, there is potential for a new culture of total morale hazardists (tm) and I don't want to exchange one oppression for another. It is fine if people genuinely tried to maintain a mortgage and send their bank jingle mail keys back and walk away, yet, to me, quite another issue to intentionally default. Under that premise, then the next time one feels slighted, they may, through their own conditioning, rinse and repeat this now accepted behavior.

If we face a future where it is up to us to create a new economic system, could we return to the use of the market, or are we better off finding another way? Perhaps a return to principles of exchange? Should we consider some sort of socialism - despite the failures observed in the old USSR?

A start is to peruse books like Healthy Money Healthy Planet, and take it a step at a time, in logistical sequence, something perhaps, like:

*) Read Cra$hmaker: A Federal Affaire

0) Bring every US soldier home and teach them to repair the failing infrastructure or arrest corrupt politicians, judges and corporate executives
1) Disband every alphabet soup agency
2) Dump IRS
3) Dump Federal Reserve
4) Tax US corporations or any corporation based upon US sales
5) Use a sales tax only on discretionary items to make up shortfall
6) Legalize all drugs and freeze the funding source of money laundering and covert operations
7) Slowly watch the impact of the first 6 steps and create the next steps
8) Figure out if we want to replace the executive branch, courts and congress since Ron Paul and a few others would be so lonely after step 0 above.
9) Let the other nations decide what they want to do in their sovereign zones ... and use the fancy haarp and other undisclosed weapons to protect the borders until things evolve across the globe ... perhaps instituting that everyone running for the temporary management replacement for congress has a son or daughter in the military concurrently with the parent's single term ... I really would not want a military at all, AT ALL, like Costa Rica, but these issues must be addressed ....

~ the government IS AN ANARCHY, they wanna keep you out of that playground ~

[RaKaR]

Hi Historiycircus,

I don't know about the USSR model; what is almost certain though is that we have to find some other way of running the economy, integrating it in the wider phenomenon, which Existence is.

Bear also in mind that the USSR , historically, was a premature, rather artificially created and implimented(maybe even forced) upon People and the Objective Circumstances.
The USSR jumped from Feodalism to Socialism, ignoring the necessary phase of Capitalistic Experience, which Experience in its turn should at a certain point evolve into Socialism, where some harmony should be between and
in the interaction, cooperation Mankind-Nature-Other Life Forms.
The technological, scientific and technical progres, which capitalism creates, should facilitate and render the next step possible, for People free of the need and fear of solely physical survivor(food, water, shelter...), would develop Spritually and grow towards a better understanding of the complexity of Life, beginning with the realization of the Oneness of all Life Forms in the inner principles and natural Laws of Earth - the fellow Human Being in the first place.

A closed look, would reveal that the small Communities who are now(forcefully!) trying to create with the precious assistance of Project Avalon( thanks, Kerry and Bill!) are but an expression of that necessary historical step, were we to survive our own madness.

Regards,

RaKaR
www.futureofmankind.co.uk

[peacelovinman]

Good post and thoughts from all.

The American "Corporation" is bankrupt and is collapsing but I sincerely hope it doesn't take all the good folks with it.

As for Russia, my belief is that the truth about how life has changed there has been kept from us. Look at this for instance:

http://carolynbaker.net/site/content/view/313/

A return to sociallism? I think the time of the "isms" to solve our challenges is gone - what we need are communities based on trust, caring and service.

[gwynned]

Good post and thoughts from all.

The American "Corporation" is bankrupt and is collapsing but I sincerely hope it doesn't take all the good folks with it.

As for Russia, my belief is that the truth about how life has changed there has been kept from us. Look at this for instance:

http://carolynbaker.net/site/content/view/313/

A return to sociallism? I think the time of the "isms" to solve our challenges is gone - what we need are communities based on trust, caring and service.


Interesting link and thanks. Russia has certainly gone through transformations, though it would appear on the surface that the eco-villages are simply a return to the earlier community farms with the addition of environmentalism. While I share your distrust of 'isms,' I question the pragmatism of creating small communities that do not share an ideology. There have been movements over the centuries of people attempting the same thing which have failed. The communes of the 60s are a case in point.

Besides, I don't think any of us would want to forego all of the benefits that have come from globalization - including the internet - and go back to laboring for long hours just to sustain ourselves.

[peacelovinman]

Interesting link and thanks. Russia has certainly gone through transformations, though it would appear on the surface that the eco-villages are simply a return to the earlier community farms with the addition of environmentalism. While I share your distrust of 'isms,' I question the pragmatism of creating small communities that do not share an ideology. There have been movements over the centuries of people attempting the same thing which have failed. The communes of the 60s are a case in point.

Besides, I don't think any of us would want to forego all of the benefits that have come from globalization - including the internet - and go back to laboring for long hours just to sustain ourselves.

Thanks for your reply to my comments. You raise interesting points which I'd like to address.

The eco-villages, I believe , have a similar aim to the community farms; that is, to benefit the Russian economy. I have posted elsewhere the contribution that the cooperatives have made to the Russian agricultural economy, amounting to 2.3% of Russian GDP in 2004, for instance. However, the eco-village movement is different in that it takes advantage of a recent Russian law change which allows individuals/families to take up land, free of charge, in order to support themselves/their family. All produce is tax free and the land is yours to pass on to your family. As for an ideology behind it, I agree that a community movement needs one. The ideology for the Russian eco-villages, the "Kins Domain" concept, comes from the books by Vladimir Megre which I can thoroughly recommend.

Your last comment, with respect, I think typifies the point of view that a living from the land is a return to the dark ages. I already labour long hours in a job just to sustain myself and my family, a job which unfortunately exists only to support the economic system which is doing so much damage to our world. I would gladly exchange that meaningless labour for a chance to develop my own domain on land I own, deriving as much of my survival needs as I could from it. In addition, I would welcome the chance to reconnect with the Earth and my fellow Human Beings in a spirit of cooperation rather than competition, which our present economic system relies on. I believe I could do it, with a suitable support system, in less time than I devote to my job.

I do agree with you that we don't need to be "luddites" and dispose of technology, only use it for good. I believe there is much surpressed technology which needs to come to the fore, technonolgy that could solve our energy problems once and for all, for instance. I believe that living in a way which does no harm to the Earth and to others will have other, non-tangible/spiritual benefits. As we expand our consciousness, we will free our minds to invent all kinds of clean/ethical technology which will benefit all.

This is my hope, anyway!

[historycircus]

Good post P and G,

Will these communities really need a unifying ideology? Or will the pragmatic necessities of reproducing society amid the theorized impending calamities be enough? I would hate emergent "radiant zones" to not be an option for the needy simply because they don't buy into a particular philosophy.

Permit me a second thought: Pre-capitalist (exchange), capitalist and socialist modes of production require a centralized form of resource management, but of the three, pre-capitalist modes of production require the least amount of centralization for efficient and fair resource use. Since centralization is the road to corruption - at least historically - should we be creating economic models for the future based on exchange economics? Should that be our focus, in terms of economy, in our plans to feed and clothe the "radiant zones?"

[matrix]

It will be something completely new and synergistic, a little bit of all and then some more... Order out of chaos - works for those with positive and negative intent - the question will be - who decides on the new order?

Economics rules all other subjects and values in today’s world, we need to understand why this illusionary and unsustainable system rule our very existence, before we can begin to shift to the new paradigm.

To change to a more just, equitable and sustainable “need” paradigm, the understanding of how the current economy works, with its consequences for people, society and ecosystems is needed. In my opinion true wealth stems from the earth and all her resources and a local economy based on the skillful, sensitive use of local, natural resources will provide the best foundation for a sustainable economic future.

[Zynox]

Exceptional ideas and discussion here. This is becoming a very impacting thread for me, these are the important, challenging questions.

I keep forming a strong emotion, that we arrived here in steps and sequences, and the most successful transformations will probably be in transitions away from here. While there will be total 'radical' changes attempted by some, the next genuine waves feel like they will be sequenced.

At each step, there will be new wisdom gained from the previous step.

I find this handy as I read these posts, and imagine if we had, as one option, really productive agri-communities with some of the 'luxuries' of the current day, afforded through released alternative and progressive energy systems. After long hours in the field, an opportunity to surf the web to connect with other communities, like we are here, and now.

~ namaste ~

[historycircus]

Hi Matrix,

I appreciate your comments, and your optimism. I bring up these issues though, for preparation purposes. Much of what we do may end up being "on the fly," so to speak, but I'm just throwing this stuff out for debate now while we still have the luxury of discussion, and are not burdened by the necessity of action.

[matrix]

Good post P and G,

Will these communities really need a unifying ideology? Or will the pragmatic necessities of reproducing society amid the theorized impending calamities be enough? I would hate emergent "radiant zones" to not be an option for the needy simply because they don't buy into a particular philosophy.

Permit me a second thought: Pre-capitalist (exchange), capitalist and socialist modes of production require a centralized form of resource management, but of the three, pre-capitalist modes of production require the least amount of centralization for efficient and fair resource use. Since centralization is the road to corruption - at least historically - should we be creating economic models for the future based on exchange economics? Should that be our focus, in terms of economy, in our plans to feed and clothe the "radiant zones?"

I have mentioned this in anorther thread - Unity amidst diversity is of utmost importance, in my opinion. There must be a shared value system or worldview, while diversity and different philosophies must not only be accepted, but actually honoured and celebrated.

Cutting edge technology (with the matching consciousness) will be an integral part of a new economy. Thinking more in terms of Free Energy and Anti-gravity as opposed to petroleum …that will be a momentous leap torwards a new economic model...

[matrix]

Hi Matrix,

I appreciate your comments, and your optimism. I bring up these issues though, for preparation purposes. Much of what we do may end up being "on the fly," so to speak, but I'm just throwing this stuff out for debate now while we still have the luxury of discussion, and are not burdened by the necessity of action.

Thanks, Historycircus, I have felt the necessity of action in my personal journey. I am in the fortunate position to answer that inner calling to go and look for workable solutions. Here is a part of a "letter of declaration" that I wrote to my friends:

“You earn, you buy, Pay taxes and die” enslavement of the human race has been the accepted norm. I look around me and I see how people struggle in a robotic way to make sense of their world, to cover their debts/expenses, to earn a living. I see how we are manipulated by the “men behind the curtain”. I see people killed in senseless wars, children die of hunger and preventable diseases. I see how we busy ourselves with mind-numbing entertainment and -activities to silence our spirit’s cry for freedom, growth and a just world.

Mammon is busy winning the game…welcome to the New World Order… meet your new masters… We need a New World Consciousness to counter this. All is not lost - Shift happens…there are many waking up to the new realities, little pockets of light all over the globe are busy lighting up.

Now that I know that “all life is a stage”, that I have seen through the illusions and urgency of our time what can I do to empower myself and others? There is Knowing, then there is Doing and Being. Now that I Know, what am I to Do? My answer? Just walk away from the illusion and deception of the money trap, turn away from “the system”. This new World Order pyramid of power and manipulation is build upon You and Me at the base. If enough of us step out of it, this pyramid will come crumbling down.

Co-create your new reality. Become self sufficient. Find community with like-minded individuals to do it with. The answer might not be the same for everybody – find your own personal answer, educate yourself, become knowledgeable about the NWO and their occult agenda, then DO something with that new knowledge, plant, learn, move, grow, share…shift. Do in order to Be your own true self – let your light shine.

We stand on a threshold of a New World paradigm... I am walking away from the Old paradigm…hopeful that I will discover more of my true self while exploring new concepts of existence and enjoying the flow of life…I am off in three weeks time in search of an eco community… I might be the one “wandering” through your neighbourhood…so please, be nice to strangers...

****
The varied responses to this open letter was amazing to say the least - old friends lost, new friends found. I will need you guys to carry on this debate and find workable solutions...fast!:yikes:

[Zynox]

Economics rules all other subjects and values in today’s world, we need to understand why this illusionary and unsustainable system rule our very existence, before we can begin to shift to the new paradigm.

To change to a more just, equitable and sustainable “need” paradigm, the understanding of how the current economy works, with its consequences for people, society and ecosystems is needed. In my opinion true wealth stems from the earth and all her resources and a local economy based on the skillful, sensitive use of local, natural resources will provide the best foundation for a sustainable economic future.

My friend, seems to me we might find some of these answers looking at Gaia's creatures and processes. While we might not get the most human progressive clues from some elements of the animal kingdom, some species might be constructive and the flora seems to have really worked an amazing balance out. The answers aren't all there, but often simple wisdom gets discarded for the exotic and complex, like derivatives, structured investment vehicles and resolution trusts.

~ namaste ~

[Zynox]

Here is a part of a "letter of declaration" that I wrote to my friends:

Matrix, wow, I have already sent that to some close friends and a link to this thread, letting them know what creative work is happening, which they may not be aware of. I have taken the liberty of initiating your meme, which is also my meme, beyond the shores here.

I nominate thee to the future community committee of sustainable rational ideas, and note that there is no 'ism' included ...

~ in great respect of matrix, for the shared creativity, and my next Bumper Sticker > SHIFT HAPPENS ~

[RaKaR]

Hello all,

Good discussion, deep thoughts being shared indeed - and Zynox, you drew a pretty charming perspective there. I definitely would like to live this type of simple, meanful existence!

I truly do not have much to add to your stances, gentlemen; i just would like to suggest not to focus too much on the names which would eventually be used to designate the kind of future reality we all long for, crave for and - judging by the mood on this Forum - which we are, this time, really willing to create and sustain.
The 'isms' and what we used to identify with them should also belong to the past paradigm; what really matter, in my humble view, is the substance, the degree of Wisdom and self awareness upon which we would base our future thoughts, decisions, choices and actions.
Call it 'social project'; 'Enlightened Capitalism';'Higher Natural Existence' ...what ever you think suits, it does not matter much. Only the content does.

Peace and Wisdom.
Rakar.
www.futureofmankind.co.uk

[historycircus]

Rakar and Zynox,

You both make good points, which has me asking yet another question. Can we not take what has worked (in terms of economic behavior), what has been valuable to our existence here, with us when we cross the threshhold of whatever is coming? Must we throw the baby out with the bathwater, or is that a terrible way to conceptualize our potential situations?

[Zynox]

Can we not take what has worked (in terms of economic behavior), what has been valuable to our existence here, with us when we cross the threshhold of whatever is coming? Must we throw the baby out with the bathwater, or is that a terrible way to conceptualize our potential situations?

Fantastic inquiry m'dear chap! I feel our highest intelligence, collectively, would be to transition in steps, casting off the obvious crust and at each step focusing on key points, such as that we are in transition (always are, so why pretend otherwise) and that we select from the myriad of options that most closely fit a generalized collective vision (we will not find a perfect unified solution) knowing that we have laid a harmoniously colored brick roughly oriented towards the next on our path. I sense precious metals will be one transitional tool from my review of 'his-clown-story' and evidence that when gold is distributed throughout the population and used as one of several mechanisms of exchange, it imposes constraints on psychopathic tyranny ...

The way I see it, pursuit of spirituality and creativity, my inspirational sources of harmony, are much more prominent focuses when I'm not scrambling to 'survive'. Sure, survival is the root, on many levels, for some awesome poetry, but we have a lot of that from the past to read.

It seems to me this is exactly what the 'common' people, like me, are waking up to in the US regarding the problem/reaction/solution oriented fix the Fed and Treasury have begun to implement, which is:

WE ARE SO SMART WE DIDN'T SEE IT COMING
WE ARE NOW SO SMART WE MUST DO IT TODAY
IT WILL BE DOOM IF WE DELAY
IT IS THE ONLY ANSWER
GIVE ME MORE POWER
WE'LL BE BACK
for more ...

~ namaste ~

[historycircus]

Is not the buying of gold the "reaction" in the problem/reaction/solution paradigm that we have all been force fed a "reaction" that keeps us part of the malevolent equation? Can we not place that next brick to focus our path in whatever direction we choose? Especially now?

[historycircus]

Can the purchase of precious metals now somehow alleviate the financial collapse of the future? For those with short term visions, are China and Russia in talks over returning their currencies to a gold standard? Will that happen?

For the long term visionaries, will gold or silver get you anything in a "radiant zone," beyond a nostalgic giggle?

More questions for the inclined, no disrespect intended.

[peacelovinman]

Can the purchase of precious metals now somehow alleviate the financial collapse of the future? For those with short term visions, are China and Russia in talks over returning their currencies to a gold standard? Will that happen?

For the long term visionaries, will gold or silver get you anything in a "radiant zone," beyond a nostalgic giggle?

More questions for the inclined, no disrespect intended.

This thread has been very uplifting to me. Thanks to all!

My thought on gold is similar to what history-circus posts above; it is just another "currency" which the majority has agreed has value. However, you can't eat it or use it to shelter so, to me, has no REAL worth.

However, I would concede that going back to a gold standard may be a transition step in our search for a better way of doing things.

I really hope that we can transition ourselves out of this mess rather than experience a total collapse. Time will tell but with guys like you on the team, my spirits are high.

I wonder if we could take this discussion further - on some kind of virtual conference or some-such medium? I sense the beginning of a prototype community amongst the posters on this thread...

[adrenochrome]

everyone might already know this, but for those that don't, Socialism (which Obama promotes) is the transitional stage between Capitalism and Communism. i'm no fan of Capitalism because it's just the first step towards Communism, but i'm also not a fan of government or economics in general. if we are indeed going to have a "spiritual revolution/revelation", then economics will cease to exist - there is NO need for an economy, or government for that matter, unless you support materialism. :thumbdown:

[Zynox]

For those with short term visions, are China and Russia in talks over returning their currencies to a gold standard? Will that happen?

For the long term visionaries, will gold or silver get you anything in a "radiant zone," beyond a nostalgic giggle?

I sense from web rumbles, that Russia and China in fact are looking towards a metal backing ... it is so hard to skry this because there are so many spiraling levels to the game in play. What I want to convey, in response, is what if the telepathic skry link is into a middle level consciousness that believes, and is acting, toward this form of action, in some smoky dark bowels of the Chinese and Russian connection? From their isolated, and managed perspective, would tapping their consciousness not simply reveal the gameplan they have been fed? This is my interpretation of risk with most remote viewing technologies, you see through 'their' eyes, filters included! If someone puts food coloring in the skry bowl, whelp, one might perceive murkiness or look at it all with rose colored glasses.

I for one, want to hear myself the butt of nostalgic giggles, in a radiant zone, is the application process long?

~ much enjoyment, from this cyberskry, like bruce cockburn, wonderin' where the lions are ~

[RaKaR]

Hi Gentlemen,

It is a tremendous privilege to share your company on this Forum.
I am glad to see that the discussion has meanwhile gained some even more quality.

I would like to begin with the observation of Zynox, for it is seems to me to be the core of the issue.
Survivor.
Why should the Life of a Human Being be reduced to a matter of pure elementary, physical survival?
Is Earth not generous enough?
Is there not enough food, water and the rest for all Humans?
Are sciences and technologies not providing us - through the hard and noble work and dedication of magnanimous scientists, who, most of the time, do not care about money and live a modest life - with means to eradicate most of diseases and improve the Existence of each and every Human Being?

But what is the current and real state of our affairs?
Allow me to quote a post i placed on another Forum, dealing with slightly the same issue:
"Some people, may be even 2/3 of the Earth population - our own fellow Humans - have every single morning to fight, to look for food and drinking water; those things we, in other parts of the world, take for granted.
I think that this situation is a painful and blunt illustration of the degree of disbalance in which we brought our societies, for the state of World Affairs is such that, in one part of the world, food and other commodities are being wasted, harvest being burned(to keep the prices high/make profit), huge resources are being invested in the military and the conquest of the space, while in another part, a piece of bread and a glass of water are a matter of daily survival and people can hardly keep their Human Dignity; Humans die here of diseases and other 'simple' bacteries, while the remedy is there long ago found - but not made available(also regarding the price) to the needies.
It is a shame; our ways of doing things are below Human Dignity and contain no trace of the Spirituality, which is supposed to be our genuine essence.
We need another, a completely new world order and the teaching of Herr Meier indicates the path to be consciously built and followed."

I would truly appreciate your thoughts on this.
My stance is that it could be a good begin if the elementary means of survival(education, shelter, medicine, food, water...) are made accessible to ALL Human Beings - i would leave the question of the ways and means to reward those producing these commodities for their work to the discretion of the Forum.

Another point.
Overpopulation is a fact.
But it would be, i think, appropriate to distinguish between two sets of problems:
- overpopulation, as a real and urgent problem to be urgently and wisely solved - certainly not the way the so-called 'Illuminaties' see it!
- and the change of The Human Society and the possible models for the future, which question we are here specially focusing on.
(No need to remember you of the 'solution' of the power-to-be or that of those from the shadom!)
In other words, what would be a rational, wise path forward?
Should be carry our past along? Some of the structures being currently issued? Some of those achievements - or as Historycircus put it:"Can we not take what has worked (in terms of economic behavior), what has been valuable to our existence here, with us when we cross the threshhold of whatever is coming? Must we throw the baby out with the bathwater, or is that a terrible way to conceptualize our potential situations?"?
Is it reason concevable to begin from zero?
How would we make it through the first - as a rule, always most challenging moment - steps without that 'backup'?
It seems to me that poverty and misery would arise from the second question only if we choose to stick to the status quo, to the current economic model(s) and the modes of production, distribution and use of created and/of natural resources, which precisely brought us into the ongoing tragic global situation.
The world we now live in is, after all, the world we ourselves created. We can always change, adjust or reject the reality we set up.
There is nothing that forbides us to wisely and with open arms welcome New, never tried Ideas, make some room for them in our Weltanschanschauung, use our creativity and the generosity of Mother-Earth to elevate ourselves, while sharing the opportunities we have with others and hence allowing them and ourselves to realize oneselves and the potentials we all carry within for the good of the New Society and Humanity as a whole.
It is hence a matter of choice, openness, solidarity, wisdom and management.

Bying gold and the like at this stage could be a good, pragmatic move, were the current structure to completly collapse the way Mr Green sees it: it would just be a matter of survival(once again!); a duty we all have towards ourselves and the Higher US we all carry.
We should first survive in order to begin anew.

Regards,
RaKaR
www.futureofmankind.co.uk

[historycircus]

The producer/consumer dichotomy is in fact one of the main reasons I started this thread. "Reward," as you put it does not seem relevent to the future that many here on Avalon expect. But it is a fair topic to consider, as I have stated elswhere, for the "radiant zones" may not end up being uniform (see the comments of Marcia Schaffer). Some pockets may not end up being "radiant zones" at all. Just for the record, I do not believe in extending the "isms" for the "isms" sakes, but within in them might be efficient methods of production and distribution if entered upon with the proper mindset - time should not be wasted reinventing the wheel.

For those who don't anticipate the need to eat or drink in the near future, and who really won't miss fine wines, comfortable chairs, or the beautiful moan of the bass clarinet, the decline of materialism will be a good thing. But for those who like such things, who do not believe in having stuff for the sake of having stuff but believe in having stuff that is fun and socially lubricating, a future where we sit quietly and contemplatively in enlightenment, after a fun day of hoing weeds and cart repair, does not seem like much fun. We are material creatures. Is that bad? Can the "radiant zones" have agriculture and enlightenment, and a good bourbon still operated to the tune of a well played banjo?

Overpopulation is a topic that should be discussed, but I would ask, are we really on the brink of a Malthusian collapse? Or is that propaganda? Is it really our behavior, not our numbers, that has led to the dire environmental circumstances we find ourselves in today?

[Zynox]

RaKar,

In the last 24 hours I have been deeply impacted by remembering the conscious language, through a post by Michael St.Clair. This information, words, energy, has keys for self transformation.

My entire perspective, and assemblage point has shifted most wondrously. I have moved from a mode of discretionary survival preparations into a being of enthusiasm and new energy. I have remembered how to be telepathic, and the world feels much warmer and connected, to me.

I still feel there is a purpose for metals in transition, and potentially much different purposes for them after this current transition.

In other posts, I had noted that I didn't seek or intend to live off the labor of 1, 2, 4, 8 or any multiple of survival slaves (no disrespect intended using this phrase, this is the condition of much of the global population), in '3rd world' locales, or those in the US. Now, I more fully grok what I meant by my own words where I stated I was seeking a micro footprint ... my focus has shifted and now there is no doubt remaining, for me, it is all about communion in love, connections across the ether and my survival energy has been transformed to 'what shall i create today' energy.

I don't feel that overpopulation is fact, i feel it is a meme ... i feel many folks would prefer a lesser population to have more share of pie. I have traveled a few great expanses on the globe that could support current populations, and feel our distribution is simply a matter of agrigarian tenancies followed by industrial tenancies (reference Jarrad Diamond's "Gun's, Germs and Steel") ... if we find a balance and focused use of space on the globe, we will do fine. To get there, requires extensive equalization and horizontal / rhizome structures ... inhabited with wisdom and love, gaia is here for symbiotic nurturing, of us, and we may be, also, for 'her'. Sovereign Choice ... and using our power to convert sea water, tap etheric energies, etc.

Maybe here, or maybe we phase shift, I DUNNO, especially as I feel phase shifted already, now, today.

For HistoryCircus and others, I suggest that we have powers beyond metrics and when tapped, even that glass of wine may feel a touch stale or sour ... there are some interesting 'alternative' bliss paths, my friends ... and maybe we intend great wine, for kicks, and it manifests ... many capacities to be imagined, and created.

for those curious: http://www.projectavalon.net/forum/showthread.php?t=3451

~ namaste ~

[publius]

.FDR convinced the world that capitalism could be fixed. I hope now, we can at least see that a system based on profit is inherently unsustainable and brutal, one which cannot and should not be 'fixed.'

What would you replace it with?

[historycircus]

Publius,

That is what this thread is about - figuring out what to replace it with. How will enlightened economics operate? How do eliminate inequality in a system that both requires and seeks to reproduce it? Is economic inequality really bad? Is a more tribalistic, exchange/gift based system a possibility?

The one thing I find interesting from a historic perspective, is that no form of economic production, exchange, commerce, or consumption has ever survived without warfare.

That brings me to another thought - possibly unrelated to economics, but I tend to think all violence has its roots in economics at some level. Many of the Camelot witnesses argue that there are many races of extraterrestrials, and we have been been visited/exploited, and they tell of conflict in our galaxy. Even the enlightened, technologically advanced races know war. Why? Over resources? Over the soul-beings that we have become? Has our world become our galaxy's Iraq? Souls or oil - its all the same. If intergalactic, time traveling enlightened ones have not yet shed war, why is it concievable that we will do the same because of a change in vibration, etc.?

Your thoughts?

[RaKaR]

Hello there,

Zynox, overpolulation is in my view a relative concept:
The number of Human Beings currently of Earth could be seen as a state of overpopulation in the specific context of the current mode of production - of should i rather say, 'exploitation' of this Planet and its resources - that is, this wild, agressive Capitalism driven by greed alone.
Were the goods, other life sustaining commodities, the product we ourselves produce or gain directly from Earth, our aims in this existence spiritually more elevated(instead of the sole accumulation of money and material items), there would be no question of overpopulation; for Mother-Earth is able and willing to take care of her Children - and does still do so.
But in the current structure, our number puts lots of stress of Earth and its resources, for everyone wants still more and more and, as we all know, there are no limits to the 'accumulation fever' and greed has by definition no boundaries.
Besides, Humans are not the only inhabitants of this Planet.
There are other Life Forms having the same rights to be and to develop, Life Forms, which are dear to Earth as well as we do: Flora, Fauna.
We are building factories and other human production facilities on lands, that should normally be reserved to agriculture; destroying forests, polluting water and air...
Flora and Fauna are being persecuted by us; i read recently in a scientific paper(i do not recall the name) that honey bees are disappearing in horrifying huge numbers and sorts(and we all know the great role they play for the balance of our eco-system); the ice is dramatically melting(due in part to human irresponsible activities, like atomic and nuclear weapons tests onderground and in the atmosphere!!!)...
A couple of months ago, two ice-bears swam the whole way to the west coast(fjords) of Iceland, hungry and in despair, for there is no more ice they could live on.
They got shot down.

So, friends, we bear a lot of guilt here.
Let's try to make amend for some of it.

Regards,
RaKaR
www.futureofmankind.co.uk

[publius]

A little capitalism doesn't hurt.

Its just when it gets out of the marketplace and affects infrastructure that we run into problems.



Well put. Thus far I have yet to encounter another system that is capitalism's equal, much less its superior. The problem is not the system per sé, but with human culture. People like pushing the envelope - it is part of our creative drive. The only problem with it is that it becomes subverted, as judged by whatever standard there may be in place short of "anything goes". People like to see how far they can take things and often lose sight that their actions bring serious harm to others at times. The "ends justify the means" mentality sets in and goes mainly unquestioned. That is why we are supposed to have watch dogs.

There is nothing wrong with curbing corporate behavior. Criminal law, for example, prevents employers from executing employees who do not perform to their expectations. The question is not whether businesses are to be regulated, but rather where the line is to be drawn. I am all for business and for capitalism, but I do not approve of the corporate free-for-all that has been raging with ever greater intensity since the Reagan administration started cutting the reins on the big boys. Efficiency in the use of resources is not a legitimate basis for screwing the pants off the very people an industry is supposed to serve. But it isn't that way anymore - now it is the customer who is to serve the business. Very dangerous stuff.

On the other hand lies the social-liberal - a cutesy euphemism for the socialist - who generally advocates that government be in everybody's business. Few appear to be interested in the middle path where corporations make their happy profit and the individual retains his full liberty. This can be achieved, but the parasitic politicos whose real agenda is power need to be removed from the equation. I'm all for ignoring them, but have no compunction to kill them if need be.

It seems to me, and I may be way wrong on this, that the world of humanity is rapidly approaching a nexus where we will have to decide what we really want: freedom and the acceptance of its requirements, or slavery and the corresponding price the illusion of a free ride exacts. And what will really be interesting is the conflict between those wanting the latter and those in favor of the former. Can they coexist? I doubt it.

[gwynned]

Well put. Thus far I have yet to encounter another system that is capitalism's equal, much less its superior.
On the other hand lies the social-liberal - a cutesy euphemism for the socialist - who generally advocates that government be in everybody's business. Few appear to be interested in the middle path where corporations make their happy profit and the individual retains his full liberty.

May I make a couple of point? First, how does one measure the value of an economic system? Is it strictly the living standards of the majority of its people? For example, during the colonial period, the English enjoyed better living standards than their Indian and African counterparts because they were able to exploit them. I will perhaps enrage some by suggesting that in many ways, Cuba provides a shining example of what a small island nation can do with committed leadership and a coherent ideology. I have been to Cuba and heard many of the Cuban leaders speak, including Fidel. In comparison to the circus called a debate last night, they spoke from the heart and with deep concern for their people. Cuba has its problems and this forum is not the place to discuss the matter at length. However, with regard to health care, Cuba excels as this article indicates.

http://www.cuba.cu/gobierno/reflexiones/2008/ing/f240908i.html

Around 35,000 Cuban health specialists provide free or paid-for services in
the world. Furthermore, some young doctors from countries such as Haiti and
others among the poorest of the Third World are working in their homelands
thanks to the assistance provided by Cuba. In Latin America, our main
contribution has been the ophthalmologic surgeries that will help to
preserve the eyesight of millions of people. Besides, we are assisting in
the training of tens of thousands of young medical students from other
nations, both in and outside Cuba.

I would also point out that, as even mentioned in mainstream media, it is rare for anyone to die in Cuba due to hurricanes, even though the island is often hit by serious storms, because the government cares enough to provide an efficient system of evacuation.

Before I left for Cuba, I spoke to someone who had made several visits to Cuba and I asked him why he had gone back so often. His response was quite enigmatic at the time. He said he needed to be reminded what it felt like to be a human being. After a few days there, I knew what he meant.

[peacelovinman]

May I make a couple of point? First, how does one measure the value of an economic system? Is it strictly the living standards of the majority of its people? For example, during the colonial period, the English enjoyed better living standards than their Indian and African counterparts because they were able to exploit them. I will perhaps enrage some by suggesting that in many ways, Cuba provides a shining example of what a small island nation can do with committed leadership and a coherent ideology. I have been to Cuba and heard many of the Cuban leaders speak, including Fidel. In comparison to the circus called a debate last night, they spoke from the heart and with deep concern for their people. Cuba has its problems and this forum is not the place to discuss the matter at length. However, with regard to health care, Cuba excels as this article indicates.

http://www.cuba.cu/gobierno/reflexiones/2008/ing/f240908i.html

Around 35,000 Cuban health specialists provide free or paid-for services in
the world. Furthermore, some young doctors from countries such as Haiti and
others among the poorest of the Third World are working in their homelands
thanks to the assistance provided by Cuba. In Latin America, our main
contribution has been the ophthalmologic surgeries that will help to
preserve the eyesight of millions of people. Besides, we are assisting in
the training of tens of thousands of young medical students from other
nations, both in and outside Cuba.

I would also point out that, as even mentioned in mainstream media, it is rare for anyone to die in Cuba due to hurricanes, even though the island is often hit by serious storms, because the government cares enough to provide an efficient system of evacuation.

Before I left for Cuba, I spoke to someone who had made several visits to Cuba and I asked him why he had gone back so often. His response was quite enigmatic at the time. He said he needed to be reminded what it felt like to be a human being. After a few days there, I knew what he meant.


I have been very interested in the Cuban community garden movement. Do you have any experience of that, Gwynned?

[gwynned]

I have been very interested in the Cuban community garden movement. Do you have any experience of that, Gwynned?

The only personal experience I have is seeing them all as we left Havanna for the airport. But the story of organic gardening exemplifies the difference between how Cuba responds to an emergency or a resource deficiency v. how the U.S. responds. When the Soviet Union collapsed, Cuba entered the 'special period.' Among the difficulties, was the sudden lack of oil based fertilizer.\ that they had been receiving under subsidy from the Soviet Union. Their response was to turn to organic gardening and home gardens and they've since developed quite the market for their goods and been able to feed their own people (starvation was a goal of the US embargo), and become a leader in organic gardening. They did not ask for a bailout for the people who could no longer farm and they didn't go to war with anyone to secure the fertilizer. They made lemons into (organic) lemonade, and snatched victory from the jaws of defeat. Not bad for a small carribean island with few natural resources.

[historycircus]

I do appreciate the gardening and seed comments made on this thread. The Cuban situation should be considered by those who read this thread. However, one cannot deny that while positive aspects in the Cuban system do exist, it is propped up by a dictatorship that is notorious for executing those who simply ask questions. Nevertheless, the Cuban example is worth studying, and was not aware of it before you posters began your discussion. For that I thank you - my journey now includes learning more on that topic.

With that said, perhaps we can envision a future where subsistance concerns are not collectivized. I can see communities where organic, household production is the norm. Perhaps, yet I am not totally convinced, that is indeed the best way. Although I would ask this: what happens when rapid influx to these future communites outstrips the household-centric nature of such a system - especially in a cold season for those existing in temperate zones? "Radiant zones," or safe zones will be what John Winthrop called "Cities on a hill;" initial production levels should take into consideration that many who have not labored will soon arrive - whether they ever do or not.

This inspires another question: at what point do economic concerns - planning, production, consumption, exchange - bleed over into the realm of political? Is not the major concern of political systems the regulation of economic activities? Should we be considering our political futures alongside our debate about the future of the micro-economies?

By the way, this thread has been a lot of fun because of the quality of the posts - thank you all for keeping it positive, fun, and informative.

[gwynned]

I do appreciate the gardening and seed comments made on this thread. The Cuban situation should be considered by those who read this thread. However, one cannot deny that while positive aspects in the Cuban system do exist, it is propped up by a dictatorship that is notorious for executing those who simply ask questions. Nevertheless, the Cuban example is worth studying, and was not aware of it before you posters began your discussion. For that I thank you - my journey now includes learning more on that topic.



I just have to respond to this. The Cuban government does NOT execute people that ask questions and execution is rare. The one that comes to mind was a high level government official that took bribes and used his position to enrich himself. I also once believed that Fidel was a dictator. But I also once believed the US is a democracy, until I began to explore a different version of events and reality than the one I had been programmed to believe.

[historycircus]

I have read several good and balanced biographies of Castro - years ago I was fascinated by his politics. But he had a dark side, as a child and as a revolutionary leader. Cuba hasn't executed many people over the last couple of decades, but the two decades after the revolution were pretty rough for dissidents. Che G. might take issue with his benevolence as well.

I am not programmed to believe anything. I can say that American democracy is dead and Fidel Castro has a lot of innocent blood on his hands in the same sentence.

Please don't stop posting useful links and info over our disagreement.

[gwynned]

I have read several good and balanced biographies of Castro - years ago I was fascinated by his politics. But he had a dark side, as a child and as a revolutionary leader. Cuba hasn't executed many people over the last couple of decades, but the two decades after the revolution were pretty rough for dissidents. Che G. might take issue with his benevolence as well.

I am not programmed to believe anything. I can say that American democracy is dead and Fidel Castro has a lot of innocent blood on his hands in the same sentence.

Please don't stop posting useful links and info over our disagreement.

Oh, I won't! You might check out a fantastic movie called Fidel by Estela Brava. I think Americans and Brits killed and executed lots of Germans in WWII, some of whom were innocent, I'm sure. Revolutions are a bloody business, usually, though Chavez and Morales have, at least so far, been able to revolutionize their coutries through the ballot.

I'll share with you a quick story. I paid a visit to the Museum of the Revolution in Havanna, which has, among other things a life size mannequin of Che with a bad hair piece, which would have seem painfully pathetic had not our guide spoken so proudly of it, thereby reminding me that revolutions are about more than catchy displays. On a serious note, one of the exhibits included photos and instruments from what had been Batista's torture facility which is now a school of liberation. I nearly fainted from looking at these horrific instruments of torture, but this begs the question one has to ask in evaluating the morality and success of any endeavor, including revolutions and one which cannot be answered perhaps without the 20/20 hindsight that time provides. Did the revolution save more lives than it took and did it improve the lives of more than it harmed.

Another great film is I Am Cuba which depicts life before the revolution, a life comparable to that of present day Haiti.

I also really enjoyed reading the big red book called Che. If nothing else, the story of the Cuban revolution is a fascinating read.

[Waterman]

Isnt' what we really want is "Free Markets".

[historycircus]

Gwyned,

Thanks for the post - I will look for both films as soon as I find time. The end of the Cuban Revolution is yet to be written. I think U.S. propaganda has done its work. While the mainstream either supports, or remains silently indifferent, to Castro today, his death will become a major symbol. My only fear is that instead of the Cuban people finding their own way in post-Castro world, they will get a swift-moving, U.S. style of invasive Capitalism that leaves them another Guam, or Puerto Rico.

Waterman,

"Markets," by their definition, are INHERENTLY free. "Free" markets, as Zynox pointed to, is what we call a "meme." Markets are free. The phrase "free markets" is a phrase introduced by politicians to get us to associate "markets" with the notion of "freedom." "Freedom" + "Market" gets us to "free market." What most people think when they adopt the phrase, is that one necessitates the other - not true. Places where true, uninhibited markets flourish, there is a great deal of exploitation, unrest and genocide. Darfur, for instance, is a place where the market operates with relatively no restrictions, but is one of the most brutal places on Earth. The United States of America is a highly manipulated and regulated market, but is freer - at least for the moment - than most places on the planet (barring unpopulated wilderness).

The real problem with Capitalism that exists today, in the U.S. and globally, is that the corporations and financeers who make it run have no problem using the words "market" and "community" interchangeably. They are not the same thing, much like the meme above. What we should be shooting for in the coming future is communities, not markets - that is why I started this thread. Should we keep the market system? Profits are natural to this system - what should be done with results that rise above production costs? Should we abandon the market system?

Thanks for the post Waterman - you have brought the focus back, and I'm interested in your responses.

[historycircus]

I have gone back through this thread to re-read some of the posts, to glean something new from the old. Your statement, Matrix, stood out. I keep emphasizing "Pre-Capitalist/exchange" economics, because it is a system that Capitalism ran roughshod over from the late eighteenth century onward. Exchange economics is what tribal societies of the past practiced, and what tribal societies today practice (the few that are left, and none are immune to the effects of "articulation," the process by which market forces erode exchange economies). For Native Americans in North America, it was the fur trade that led to articulation, a process that was quickly followed by gun-point diplomacy by the Canadian and United States governments.

My point is that exchange economies were consciously crushed by the historic PTB BECAUSE it ran counter to exploitative market Capitalism. Could we build community models based on this earlier economic model?

[EpiphaMe]

snip

[historycircus]

Hi EpiphaMe,

I welcome your post, but am afraid I may have missed the point. Your initial tone was a bit off-putting. The folks here obviously have done their homework, have something to contribute, and want to share. I get the sense from your starting comments that that bothers you in some fashion. Why?

The system is crashing - we're seeing new nails be driven into the coffin now on a daily basis. Capitalism seems to be failing us - thus the point of the thread. Can it be reformed, are there other ways, etc.? We know it has turned to **** - I want this thread to contemplate alternatives for our future.

I don't know what to tell you about your neighbors. I live next to a guy who is a complete jerk. Guy looks like a Frankenstein whos been slapped with ugly (thanks Violent J), and thinks his worth can be measured by the numbers on his paycheck stub. I won't be having any conversations with him in the near future on how to prepare for the SHTF, but when it does, chances are we will be collaborating for survival. Ain't that really the point?

[historycircus]

I thank all here for their responses.

Now, let me ask this. Given the birth and raising of Capitalism, what we have witnessed over the last few days, is this a system we should support? Should we reject all that a market system creates?

[Zynox]

Publius,

The one thing I find interesting from a historic perspective, is that no form of economic production, exchange, commerce, or consumption has ever survived without warfare.

That brings me to another thought - possibly unrelated to economics, but I tend to think all violence has its roots in economics at some level. Many of the Camelot witnesses argue that there are many races of extraterrestrials, and we have been been visited/exploited, and they tell of conflict in our galaxy. Even the enlightened, technologically advanced races know war. Why? Over resources? Over the soul-beings that we have become? Has our world become our galaxy's Iraq? Souls or oil - its all the same. If intergalactic, time traveling enlightened ones have not yet shed war, why is it concievable that we will do the same because of a change in vibration, etc.?

Your thoughts?

~ Why, indeed! ... perhaps don Juan shared the ultimate illumination with Carlos, perhaps, it is 'simple' parasitic influence ... once we get past the repulsive impression we are infected, it satisfies Occam's razor as a simple and straight forward cause, for those with eyes to see, ears to hear, and stomach to digest, this most repulsive concept ~

The Topic of Topics
http://stclairzone.ning.com/forum/topic/show?id=2347024%3ATopic%3A2677

~ namaste my sisters and brothers ~

[Zynox]

~ within recent posts herein this thread, some have expressed their essence, and confusion ~ and, others have asked ,essentially, what's the point of the contribution ~ economies are comprised of the conglomerate, those that feel or possess some finesse, research, investment and resonance, and those that participate, at all other levels ~ in sum total, we shall have peace and harmony, or we shall rinse and repeat the current paradigm ~ suggestion: embrace one another my sisters and brothers ~ we are WE ~ may we all relate on respectful sovereign ground, as each, contribute ~

~ love and namaste my sisters and brothers ~

[Zynox]

Given the birth and raising of Capitalism, what we have witnessed over the last few days, is this a system we should support? Should we reject all that a market system creates?

I recognize three predominant responses:

1) Same old song and dance - bend over ~ we know where it leads

2) Pitchforks and Guillotines ~ we know where it leads

3) NON-PARTICIPATION ~ extract and create ~ each their own way

What would happen if each calmly elected to withdraw participation, sure pay taxes for now, but have no investment in the paper system, step one, refuse to vote at all, as it is only for a thug that will coerce thy neighbor more than the other thug your neighbor wants to coerce you with ...

Imaginative (creative) minds may expand from here, it is possible, read Lysander Spooner if con-fused ...

~ love and namaste, my sisters and brothers ~

[historycircus]

~ Why, indeed! ... perhaps don Juan shared the ultimate illumination with Carlos, perhaps, it is 'simple' parasitic influence ... once we get past the repulsive impression we are infected, it satisfies Occam's razor as a simple and straight forward cause, for those with eyes to see, ears to hear, and stomach to digest, this most repulsive concept ~

The Topic of Topics
http://stclairzone.ning.com/forum/topic/show?id=2347024%3ATopic%3A2677

~ namaste my sisters and brothers ~

Great link Zynox,

I tend to think war cannot be seperated from economics. The prevailing theme of the exopolotical literature is that this planet is a resource, and competitive interests are involved. Even the "enlightened ones," according to the various theories, are in direct competition over the very things we are. Does that make war, much like economic activity (not to be confused with known economic systems), a universal condition of life? What are the implications of this for the radiant/safe zones of the future?

[Zynox]

Does that make war, much like economic activity (not to be confused with known economic systems), a universal condition of life? What are the implications of this for the radiant/safe zones of the future?

HistoryCircus,

Your specific question has been my contemplation for several intense hours ... I am now resolved, until new data is received and processed, that we are in kindergarten and soon to be shoved into the first grade. I feel terra is a training ground for the astral, and, this is somewhat not what I would create or 'wish' for, it feels like we have less than complete sovereign choice in participation. YET, it leads me to feel that much MORE empowered regarding sovereign response. Perhaps, the schoolyard is initiation, and if we excel here, we get to be the ultimate 'free-lance', or free-soul, in astral and re-incarnations here, running our own SOVEREIGN scripts, as powerful beings that simply exude a "don't fu*k with me aura - i'm on my own sovereign mission" feel ... hope this makes some sense as i work through these new understandings ...

I am so done with gurus, group-mind, mind-fu*ks and that whole spectrum of rubbish, I want to LOVINGLY create an inner radiant zone, and exude such incredible energy that no other dares tread on me, as a starting point to magnetically attract resonant and harmonious relationships with balanced sovereign souls ... I am well aware, at the moment, that I am yet another inmate, in the asylum ~ blissfully, insane ~

i suspect:

banks go on holiday next week
draconian measures are propagated
underground mutant resistance and creations emerge
interesting times develop
souls are tested
souls radiate
souls extinguish (not sure what this 'means')

~ namaste, my brother ~

[Seva]

Watch this vid its pretty stirring, the opening bit and ending bit is from a movie. Does anyone know what movie it is?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-CJMw914Zvk

wow i wanna hug that lady!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oAADyc6t4nY

she must make those bastards cringe LOL :mfr_lol:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbD62gNi9WE

[historycircus]

Seva,

Thanks for the clips, and feel free to give your thoughts on the many questions posed on this thread. After this last week, Ph.D.s in economics from Harvard don't mean chit to me. Your thoughts on the economic future of the safe/radiant zones are welcome.

Zynox,

I couldn't be happier to hear that you've given up on the gurus - in an age where following has led us to the brink of disaster, you strike me as the type of guy who has something to teach. Discovering that we are our own gurus is freedom.

And on another note, although a little off topic given the thread, let me be the first to say that I don't want to go to first grade. Did I wake up from my soul sleep and imposed imprisonment just put on another garb of captivity? For the "good" or "bad," our mistakes as a species are ours to make. If we destroy ourselves, so be it. If we destroy ourselves as part of someone elses game, that is true tragedy. I am not a resource - I am a man. I am not a market - I am a man. I did not shed one patriarchy just to join another.

I too feel that hard times are ahead, and I hope that all who have posted here end up safe.

May you all be safe in the coming age.

[Zynox]

... let me be the first to say that I don't want to go to first grade.

... I am not a resource - I am a man. I am not a market - I am a man. I did not shed one patriarchy just to join another.

HistoryCircus,

You my friend, have been instrumental in my current evolution, we rubbed each other at first, and now feel to be accelerating each other, in harmony, and I appreciate the growth you have nurtured for me ~

Your second comment is how I have felt on levels, but I have come full circle, yet again, and found another puzzle key that feels like enormous script truth, to me:

The War in Heaven (are we loosh, and if so, how do we avoid feeding the factions):
Source Files and Blog Posts regarding The War in Heaven (http://communityvisionblog.ning.com/forum/topic/show?id=2347170%3ATopic%3A182)


~ namaste, my sisters and brothers ~

[historycircus]

Interesting site Zynox, and I am nowhere near digesting it all yet. It sounds very familiar in a lot respects.

I think about how I would conduct myself if given, say, a ship and crew - to travel the stars, seek out new life, and pick Roddenberries, etc. If I found a planet full of monkeys being manipulated into killing each other by some other alien like myself, and wanted to do something about it, I'd take the fight to the source - not manipulate them even further.

I would not pick people who have isolated themselves and are considered crazy by the majority to deliver my offer of joining the team - you know what I mean? I'd put the shields up, and park on the lawn of the capital building, turn on the external speakers, and start laying it out.

The subterfuge that many posit is pointless, and in honor of Nimoy, illogical.

Many in the flesh, for centuries, have proven their worth; have proven that for all the collective flaws, there is collective potential. If I can figure that out, then I am sure a more enlightened trans-dimensional time-travelling being can too.

Zynox, you make me think, and for that I love you.

[EpiphaMe]

We find it difficult to conceive of another system yet unlived, unexperienced. The Zeitgeist Addendum addresses most all your questions above. The transition will be turbulent or in baby steps, the ones outlined in the 2nd half which we could all be doing now.

The fractional monetary system works on the premise of debt and the mindset of limited resources. Creativity is unmanifest, the avenue of expression restricted when one is searching for its next pc of bread.

There is abundance of (free) energy, Abundance, not a lack (of which most of the dollar pays for, this lack).... there are millions needing primary assistance, the basics.

Transition is certain, the pains of which are being expressed. I feel your hearts.
We do next the right thing before us. It cannot be a rinse and repeat, thanks Zynox.

[Xhaosis]

If the free world as we know it collapses.. Big reach here, with the collapse of Capitalism, you would have a moment of anarchy.... Then either a new and improved form of a system, or a stigmatic arrogance of change that would be declared as better and more forthright for the people it controls. Taking that into consideration chances are this mechanism is functional at this moment. Also take heed in the degree and precision of this financial change. The speed of this meltdown is astonishing. Its not accidental it is a well disposed plan. The question remains who or what has the power over the leaders of men to this degree? Only the people. When everything settles we will realize it is not what we have changed around us, it is what we have changed in our perception. The free market is a milestone to everything we hold up on pedestals the internet, cell phones, grocery stores food, school flat tv's, and for this to collapse and fail, Changes the way history is written. It seem their is a lack of substance, never before has it been so cold, every one feels alone, and scared. Well not all of us. Helpless without jobs, loss of homes, despair. Their is no need to predict or pray for UFO's to come save us, we must save ourselves and adapt to this brave new World, yet i respect and am entertained by the notion of a Alien species coming to save and fix our capital, that we revolve around and strive to aquire. In essense the system lack jobs and the credit problem already seems pretty darn damaged as it is. In other words our economy is in the ICU.

PEACE

[tommy38]

From todays (Oct 6, 2008) London Telegraph
Quote – We face extreme danger…we risk a disintegration of global finance within days.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comment/ambroseevans_pritchard/3141428/Germany-takes-hot-seat-as-Europe-falls-into-the-abyss.html

Well, well…….

[Zynox]

If I found a planet full of monkeys being manipulated into killing each other by some other alien like myself, and wanted to do something about it, I'd take the fight to the source - not manipulate them even further.

I would not pick people who have isolated themselves and are considered crazy by the majority to deliver my offer of joining the team - you know what I mean? I'd put the shields up, and park on the lawn of the capital building, turn on the external speakers, and start laying it out.

The subterfuge that many posit is pointless, and in honor of Nimoy, illogical.

Zynox, you make me think, and for that I love you.

Yes, you and I feel aligned, as I too would want to help in a transparent way with honest and loving disclosure. However, we don't fully understand:

Our bodies
Our minds
Our souls

So, seems to me, that we don't have the playbook or the user manual, perhaps there are some physical/metaphysical rules that prevent, and then faced with a choice to abandon or use methods open, the choice of astral energies is to pick evils of lessers, we do it down here all the time.

What has always confounded me is the entire ET/Ultrdimensional paradigm, is:

Why would 'constructive' forces work only with world governments, in secret, or stay in hands-off observation mode when the entire situation here is a mess? I sense and feel, but do not know, that there are forces beyond us, and would assume there is some balance. I haven't yet grokked both sides only working with the governments and a few special / enlightened / mental / mutant individuals. There are now billions of humans here, and if extensive contact was happening it seems it couldn't be contained.

Then again, most folks don't seem interested in chem-trails ...

I feel all of this is on-topic, because if there is an 'external' card in play, then we need to have it integrated in discussions of solutions.

Love reflected brother, because you are, my brother!

[Zynox]

If the free world as we know it collapses.. Big reach here, with the collapse of Capitalism, you would have a moment of anarchy....

In other words our economy is in the ICU.


I am rooting for anarchy, and this results in much hostility in some folks when I bring it up. As the 'system' protects itself, I am sure I'm on the million plus watch list. Lysander Spooner so long ago elucidated the entire racket of governments, voting for whom would coerce whom ...

When we were children, did we need established structures of control to run a lemonaid stand, to play pickup baseball, to ride bikes and explore the world? If not, then do we need them to build roads, put out fires, establish radiant communities or develop artistic and technological wonders? Where would the imagination and creativity of the human spirit and ingenuity lead if allowed to blossom?

Have we been massively conditioned to reject and/or fear anarchy as a reasonable alternative to 'isms'? Seems capitalism, communism, totalitarianism, socialism and such are equally as tyrannical as republican, whig and democratic parties are shades of the same.

Echelon and watch list bots, I say "Let's open up the game to Anarchism. Does the 'ism' addition make it palatable and legitimate? I will not riot, I will not harm, I will not steal, I will behave according to internal ethics, so how about removing the pesky external morality, it crimps my sovereignty."

~ If I'm disappeared, please write and send snackies ~

~ namaste and love my sisters and brothers ~

[Jack MF Union]

Check out my GW Bush track, i manipulated him to finally tell the truth about what he's been doing!

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=FB6e03rXyBI

[historycircus]

I am rooting for anarchy,

I tend to agree. For some who may read that statement, and infer that those are only the words of an anti-patriot, such a proposition would be uncomfortable. That would be the pre-programmed response typical of the inheritor of centuries of external conditioning for that very purpose.

But, if one is predisposed toward the Lockean persuasion - that humankind is inherently good in a state of nature - a little anarchy might just be the needed prescription for a very sick world. In such a state, evil either rules completely, or is ostracized to the margins of society - either way would be more preferred by me, instead of the hazy, murky, confused world where all claim to be good, but publicly celebrate evil (as relative as those two terms are).

Best,

Historycircus

[gwynned]

I am rooting for anarchy

You may get your wish, but as they say, be careful what you wish for. Anarchy will more likely look like Road Warrior than the Summer of Love.

[historycircus]

You may get your wish, but as they say, be careful what you wish for. Anarchy will more likely look like Road Warrior than the Summer of Love.

I'll go one further and say it WILL look like Road Warrior - with complete collapse of the system, and billions of human beings who will fall back on what they have been programmed to do (follow the leader), and leaders who have already proven that they are willing to do whatever to whoever to make sure their Bentlys get properly waxed, the future will be a violent, unpleasant place for those stuck in the orbit of them all.

But it won't be like that everywhere. There will be pockets that survive where new forms of economy (a term implied to include production, exchage, consumption, distribution, regimes of value, etc. - not the simplistic notion of buying and selling) rise and thrive. Let me take this opportunity to sort of steer this thread back to its original intent: to discuss the possible ways in which we - as members of one of these safe/radiant zones - can create a new economy (and all that that term implies), and do so in a fashion, if possible, that avoids the great plague of all historical economic forms - war.

Thoughts? How do we fairly, in a community, produce, exchange, consume, distribute labor, etc. in the most efficient way? Is there a way to do so and avoid the heirarchical and exploitative monstrosities that have resulted?

Some questions to consider, and I welcome all perspectives.

[Zynox]

Anarchy will more likely look like Road Warrior than the Summer of Love.

Most respectfully, I inquire:

Upon what proofs and evidence do you base the foundation of the allegation that Anarchy will more likely look like _________________?

Seriously, we in our lifetimes have not, to my knowledge, been exposed to anything that comes close to clean and unfettered anarchy ...

If anyone wants to say, well what about LA in the Rodney King riots, or New Orleans after Katrina, I'd flatly state that each had orchestrated or antagonistic co-intel-pro elements and such, so those sorts of examples don't qualify as potential peeks at anarchy ... why do we carry these fear filled memes of what we would behave like if we were treated as sovereign humans?

Someone please, respond to how we were relatively sane as children without hyper-control paradigms ...

Paraphrasing Ice-T, before he became a TeeVee 'star' - "Damn, shoulda killed me last year" (what happened Echelon, I'm still here, not disappeared, is it ok to discuss anarchy now, the behavior of 'governments'?)

~ love and namaste, my sisters and brothers ~

[Zynox]

How do we fairly, in a community, produce, exchange, consume, distribute labor, etc. in the most efficient way? Is there a way to do so and avoid the heirarchical and exploitative monstrosities that have resulted?

Let us envision this, and support a stated goal of Avalon.

I have started some community websites and begun networking with folks contemplating the physical and spiritual aspects of how to manage, not manhandle, community make-up.

The conundrum always comes back to how to keep peace and sovereignty in parallel. We are not there yet, and have not yet come close, beyond setting the framework of the QUESTIONS:

1) How do we develop a flat / horizontal / rhizome network of members in a community and provide leadership and guidance without authority?

2) How do we prevent rainbows from becoming drainblows?

3) How do we reflect the change we want within, in response to dissonant and aggressive members?

4) What do we do when the psychopath (organic portal, demon, brute) comes to town?

Huge Questions, requiring CREATIVE new-mind / heart-view answers ....

Shall we take this discussion here, as our friend, HistoryCircus, has suggested?

~ love and namaste sisters and brothers ~

[EpiphaMe]

The idea of sovereignty ( to be self governing ) includes not being controlled by outside forces... The word "controlled" is at hand to contemplate. To be self governing is already in our "world" is it not? To be controlled then, might be the subjective "ism" of cognitive struggle. "Affected" is more adequate, should the "system" fall into chaos, anarchy (no rulers) is then a 'given' except we would all be looking over our shoulders, to be sure, to fend off residuals of the existing paradigm.... There can be no transition to without the former presence of mind...

which leads to "how can we create a new economy"?.... how to manage the affairs of being alive!.... w/thrift/frugality/mgmt of resources.... but as above stated... w/fairness <<< there ya go! This mindset is fruited by the former presence of mind... what do I get and have you earned your part?... what is fair?

Each being has their basic needs met FIRST, and that's a task in itself> starting with self.....until that is a reality, the rest will not be realized but I expect we would marvel w/the creative fruition of minds set free of want.

Isn't it interesting that we talk about how we might extend to others any surplus... has anyone here ever grown a garden??? ... and had surplus...??? You are happy to give away (be rid of actually) ...

questions 1 - 4 posted above... I would asnwer that you act from a grounded, centered space. Are you struggling w/the possibility of having to kill someone? That is what I sense from your questions. And we've all considered these possibilities considering the global situation.

To know thyself only includes things encountered... this is wisdom.. for I cannot know my capacity until ....

I'm very tired, so pardon me, please fill in the blanks. May love reign over you!!!!!

[historycircus]

Exellent post Z and EpiphaMe.

Notions of "fairness" and equity will be the filters through which we share ideas and engage in economic activity. It is what we know/been programmed to believe as truth. Some may be able to operate without those filters, but most will be forced to walk that fine line between the old paradigm and the new - a thought I haven't really considered EpiphaMe, and for that I thank you.

Communites of only a few families and individuals might be so preoccupied by subsistence, especially at the outset of whatever events might necessitate such a radical shift in economic behavior, that such filters of concern will be moot. As an optomist (despite allegations on other threads accusing me of being a peddaler of doom), I think that no matter what comes, the human race will survive and prosper. Eventually these smaller communities will reach out and find each other, and despite the vulgar blight our modern cities have become, and collectivization will naturally happen. Specialization in labor and mass production need not be negative, for if done with a conscious respect for both the environment and the producers, it leads to efficient production and lesiure time - the latter being essetial to the building of culture. After all, a future of all work and no play will breed resentment. I'm not suggesting bread and circuses for control (the current paradigm), I'm suggesting that the artists and poets of the future will need a little down time to practice their crafts. Chances are, when a few hundred people get together, a division and specialization of labor will allow for efficient resource management and foster individual sovereignty.

But what do we do when one chooses to excercise personal sovereignty in such a way as to harm members of the group (rape, robbery, murder, etc.)? Successful economic production in a free society will undoubtedly, over time, give individuals a lot more time to find ways to exercise free will, and we cannot assume that everyone, at all times, will act in a way that is neutral or beneficial to society. To have poets, one must brace for rapists. What does that say about our fundamental nature as a species? Does that mean that becuase some at the top of the social pyramid have hijacked our mechanisms of economy, crime and punishment, politics, and culture, that the whole or parts of our system are irrelevent and should be abandoned? If society reemerges with the collective experiences of collapse, and consciously rebuilds with a new and more enlightened mindset, could we not rinse, if not repeat?

[historycircus]

As I have sat and watched the crash of the global markets over the last few days, I have come to a couple conlusions that I would love to get some responses to.

First, the market system will not survive this global collapse. The only way to preserve any semblence of the system is extreme government intervention, on a global scale. The global economic system that will emerge from the crisis will not be market capitalism. Make no mistake, the PTB will claim, eventually, that they have preserved it, but the intervention that is now taking place will render Adam Smith's "invisible hand" intangible as well. I think, barring global cataclysm, we are well on our way to a global socialism - a circumstance that immediately puts China and Russia definatively at the top of the global economic food chain. My question to you all: are we watching the vindication of Karl Marx in the Western world?

Secondly, I do not believe that the current global economic crisis is engineered - a thought which I know is anathema to many on this forum.

Hear me out.

The market system - Capitalism - has been the most effective tool that the PTB have had. We are exploited, but we call it freedom. As mentioned earlier in this thread, we are taught, from very early on, that participating in the market system is an act of freedom. But your participatory freedom is directly proportional to your income in this society. For instance, a poor man and a rich man are both cited for driving drunk - for both it is the second offense, and the incidents are six months apart. The man who can afford to retain a private-practice lawyer will ultimately not see the inside of a cell, while the poor man, in almost all states in the union will. No one making less than fifty thousand a year could even entertain running for the Congress or the Presidency. One's income determines where you live, what you eat, what or if you drive, how you spend your leisure time, where you get educated and if you get to go to college, and it determines your access to quality health care. Yet, we are told we are free. And when someone turns their back on the system, for spiritual or ideological reasons, they become outcasts - percieved as wierd at best, seditionists and treasonous at worst.

The point of the paragraph above is to point out that the PTB already has the greatest system of control ever devised - a system of control we celebrate. The current financial crisis IS a crisis for them - for the people are beginning to wake up and get grumpy. The rumblings of discontent with the Western system grow louder with every ring of the closing bell on Wall Street, and with every trip to the grocery store. Direct control is expensive and messy - you have to herd everyone into central locations, moniter, chip, discipline, etc. It is difficult to run a prison when the prisoners know they are in prison - there is the endless task of discipline and preventing escape, and nothing is foolproof; sometimes prison riots and escapes happen. It is easier to run a prison in which nobody identifies their experiences as that of an inmate. That is why I don't believe that the current financial crisis has been engineered - What do you all think?

[gwynned]

As I have sat and watched the crash of the global markets over the last few days, I have come to a couple conlusions that I would love to get some responses to.

First, the market system will not survive this global collapse. The only way to preserve any semblence of the system is extreme government intervention, on a global scale. The global economic system that will emerge from the crisis will not be market capitalism. Make no mistake, the PTB will claim, eventually, that they have preserved it, but the intervention that is now taking place will render Adam Smith's "invisible hand" intangible as well. I think, barring global cataclysm, we are well on our way to a global socialism - a circumstance that immediately puts China and Russia definatively at the top of the global economic food chain. My question to you all: are we watching the vindication of Karl Marx in the Western world?

Secondly, I do not believe that the current global economic crisis is engineered - a thought which I know is anathema to many on this forum.



Historycircus,

We meet again! We are watching the vindication of Karl Marx, though not in the way you suggest. He wrote much more about capitalism than socialism, which was only a glimmer in his eye way back then. He delineated the internal contradictions of the system and predicted that it would one day collapse. In that sense, I agree with you that this is not an engineered collapse. This is a controlled demolition, except that they can only control the demolition, they can't keep the building up.

Secondly, Russia and China are not really good examples. They have some aspects of state controlled 'socialism,' but the people are not really in control. That aside, I think the better example is Venezuela. Chavez has been able to parlay his oil revenues to institute some breakthrough redistribution of the wealth. He is always under attack, of course, but has gained some allies in Latin America like Morales.

[historycircus]

Welcome back G. You will have to accept my apology, however, for I have not had time to check out those films you suggested. They are on my movie to-do list.

Marx has always recieved his fair share of criticism for his ability to slice and dice the veggies, but never produce a tasteful salad. Neo-Marxists tear him down at the other end of his critique - they say he too easily dismissed pre-capitalist societies as a source for understanding how Capitalism originated in the first place, and thus some of his fundamental assumptions of how the mechanisms of Capitalism work are also flawed. And, there is the notion to consider, that Marx envisioned collapse as a conscious push from the bottom of the Capitalist pyramid, not the result of bungling and rot at the top. His bourgeois, our middle class, is upset about and resisting collapse, instead of initiating it through a unified movement.

I think the ruling class and the ruled have become so dependent upon the market system, the former for control, the latter for survival, that it is hard for me to see engineered collapse as a desireable scenario initiated by either.

[gwynned]

I think the ruling class and the ruled have become so dependent upon the market system, the former for control, the latter for survival, that it is hard for me to see engineered collapse as a desireable scenario initiated by either.

You make some excellent points. Of course your perspective above is based primarily on western industrialized models and not, let's say, Latin America or India, where the ruled are not afraid to take matters in their own hands, like in Cocachamba, Bolivia where they threw out Bechtel or in India, where a mob lynched a CEO that had laid them all off. The sides in those cases were very clear to the people, but have been obscured here in the US. That may change as more and more people become homeless and catch on to what is happening to them and why.

[ophiuchus]

i'm really very surprised at this conversation. the zionist rothchild gang created marx and communism. they're doing what has to be done to initiate north american union, one world currency,new world order,gaing global domination. funny,israel is probably the only country on the planet faring well(and our tax dollars finance that as well,more than 25 billion a year). maybe, soon the entire planet will bowing to them.

[whalerider]

A real American hero, Ellen Miller, has real solutions regarding accountability by our government and perhaps great ideas for any 'new government' that may come to be.

October 'Wired Magazine' has a featured article highlighting the work of Ellen Miller. Never hear of her? Read on.

Ellen Miller, founder of the Sunlight Foundation has a goal...to tap some of the internets best-known thinkers in order to make Washington as user friendly as Google. She says, "Washington Politicians like the firewall they have erected. They will have to be dragged into the 21st century".

Here are some of her current projects with links and explanations of what they do:

Earmarkwatch.org- When politicians makes sausage, they don't skimp on the pork. More than 500 volunteers have pored through federal spending bills to created this database of KICKBACKS and BOONDOGGLES.

OpenCongress.org-This site summarizes bills in EVERYDAY language and monitors related news and blog coverage. Users can also follow a legislator's voting record AND submit comments on proposed laws.

Punch Clock Map-The next best thing to putting a bell on your senator, this Google map tracks the schedules of participating members of Congress. While only 9 of 535 members of Congress have agreed to this to date, now that you know about it, write some letters or editorials and pressure ALL of them to be accountable with their time and activities.

Here are a few things she is proposing:

Crowdsourced Legislation: Why should elected officials be the only ones who get to haggle over legislation? Drafts of Bills should be uploaded to wikis, where anyone could edit them before they get debated by the House or Senate.

One-Click Government-Sure, you can find Federal documents online, but good luck making any sense of them. Her suggestion: Build mashups that seamlessly link politicians, donor, and legislation to give a COMPLETE picture of how government works and WHO is doing what and when.

Constant Real-Time Video: Encourage phonecam-weilding citizens to attend government meetings and post the proceedings on You Tube. They've been keeping track and videotaping American citizens for years. Isn't it time we had the same privileges?

[historycircus]

Ophiuchus,

The question that I am asking myself is this: if a NWO/Illuminatti organization exists, and is crashing everything for the purpose of control, why? They already own everything and control everything. The current collapse only serves to loosen their control. If Zionists engineered the collapse, why? Don't they already control everything? Properly running Capitalism leads to ultimate control, its collapse breeds discontent and disobediance. The current crisis, as a manufactured phenomenon, makes no sense from the "eye's" point of view.

Marx may have been a puppet, but he was a brilliant puppet who clearly understood many of the nacient problems of industrial Capitalism.

G.,

The Latin American and Indian models are the very models that captivate the Neo-Marxists - they are, in many respects, still undergoing the process of "articulation," the process by which market forces chip away at an existing exchange/tribal system. Despite the propaganda we get here in the U.S. and in Western Europe, Latin America, in many ways, has not yet reached such pervasive dependency, and in that respect retain a form of freedom that for us, died a long time ago.

[mel]

Well said, though I note few responses to your succint analysis. The last time we were so close to collapse, FDR stepped in, created some safety nets for the people and got the US involved in a war, which is what really got the economy back up and running - albeit after it killed about 50 million people. Prior to all that, revolution was in the air, their were labor strikes, and an awakened and angry public. FDR convinced the world that capitalism could be fixed. I hope now, we can at least see that a system based on profit is inherently unsustainable and brutal, one which cannot and should not be 'fixed.'

Definately, if we do what we have always done, we get what we have always gotten, evolution is about breaking out of that unacceptable *****, PEACE.

[Rocky_Shorz]

And when someone turns their back on the system, for spiritual or ideological reasons, they become outcasts - perceived as weird at best, seditionists and treasonous at worst.

The point of the paragraph above is to point out that the PTB already has the greatest system of control ever devised - a system of control we celebrate. The current financial crisis IS a crisis for them - for the people are beginning to wake up and get grumpy. The rumblings of discontent with the Western system grow louder with every ring of the closing bell on Wall Street, and with every trip to the grocery store. Direct control is expensive and messy - you have to herd everyone into central locations, monitor, chip, discipline, etc. It is difficult to run a prison when the prisoners know they are in prison - there is the endless task of discipline and preventing escape, and nothing is foolproof; sometimes prison riots and escapes happen. It is easier to run a prison in which nobody identifies their experiences as that of an inmate. That is why I don't believe that the current financial crisis has been engineered - What do you all think?

For a clown, I think you are spot on... :winksmiley02:

Every person that is pulling money from the system is saying "no confidence"

It has snowballed so many who have no idea what is going on are pulling out too.

did anyone smile seeing oil close at $77.7...:thumb_yello:

First the banks, then the oil companies will be brought into public control...

[gwynned]

Ophiuchus,

G.,

The Latin American and Indian models are the very models that captivate the Neo-Marxists - they are, in many respects, still undergoing the process of "articulation," the process by which market forces chip away at an existing exchange/tribal system. Despite the propaganda we get here in the U.S. and in Western Europe, Latin America, in many ways, has not yet reached such pervasive dependency, and in that respect retain a form of freedom that for us, died a long time ago.


HC,

I thought I'd look into what is actually happening in Venezuela to see how much they are impacted by the 'world wide' economic crisis. In doing so, I stumbled upon an article which outlined, I think quite well, the difference between capitalist and socialist intervention in the economy. I've provided the link below but would summarize it as follows. When the capitalists intervene, the purpose is to protect the interests of the wealthy and their institutions to the detriment of the people, i.e., we the people will be paying off the 700B debt and thereby supporting the various banking institutions. When socialist governments intervene, the purpose is to take a profitable business and redistribute the wealth to the people, as is the case when Chavez nationalized the Venezuelan oil companies and used the money to institute universal health care and implement a literacy program.

In addition to your point that the people of Latin America have been less integrated into the (US based) capitalist system, I would add that there has been a conscious and cooperative movement among the leftist Latin American governments to barter among themselves and create a regional bank, thereby further disengaging themselves from the web of the IMF and the World Bank.

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/analysis/3846

As an aside, I really appreciate your commentary, which is significantly more nuanced than the "Illuminati did it" commentary that tries to pass for reasoned analysis.

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/analysis/3846

[doodah]

The thing I keep remembering about this global collapse, is that it is the collapse of nothing. Nothing. Cyber wealth. Digits. Ones and zeroes on computers. We exchange that Nothing for real stuff like food and cars. We pay back our credit card Nothing with pieces of paper that we "earn" at our jobs, or maybe we pay back the Nothing with more Nothing (direct deposit into our banks). It's quite funny if you step outside of it a little bit.

Some communities are creating their own paper money. And why not? Paper money used to be a promise to pay in gold or silver. You could take paper money to the bank and demand real physical metal in return. Then they took away the gold and silver. Now it's a promise to pay in what? Nothing. :original: So the collapse of this system is really funny because nobody is really losing anything except all their Nothing.

How bizarre!

If we go to a grocery store and don't have any more Nothing left in our bank account or on our credit card, we can't get food. That is we don't have any Nothing to exchange for Something. This whole system has been a mass hypnosis, a mass illusion. Let it fall and none too soon.

[doodah]

Here's a thought: Why don't we just throw away all that Nothing and see what's really real, or at least physical?

We'd be back to a barter system, where things have real value, which I personally prefer.

[Southsea]

The thing I keep remembering about this global collapse, is that it is the collapse of nothing. Nothing. Cyber wealth. Digits. Ones and zeroes on computers. We exchange that Nothing for real stuff like food and cars. We pay back our credit card Nothing with pieces of paper that we "earn" at our jobs, or maybe we pay back the Nothing with more Nothing (direct deposit into our banks). It's quite funny if you step outside of it a little bit.

Some communities are creating their own paper money. And why not? Paper money used to be a promise to pay in gold or silver. You could take paper money to the bank and demand real physical metal in return. Then they took away the gold and silver. Now it's a promise to pay in what? Nothing. :original: So the collapse of this system is really funny because nobody is really losing anything except all their Nothing.

How bizarre!

If we go to a grocery store and don't have any more Nothing left in our bank account or on our credit card, we can't get food. That is we don't have any Nothing to exchange for Something. This whole system has been a mass hypnosis, a mass illusion. Let it fall and none too soon.

I agree, and hope more people realise this. I wonder how the ones, to whom money was the be all and end all, will cope. It's going to be a great leveller of ego for us all.

[gwynned]

The thing I keep remembering about this global collapse, is that it is the collapse of nothing. Nothing. Cyber wealth. Digits. Ones and zeroes on computers. We exchange that Nothing for real stuff like food and cars. We pay back our credit card Nothing with pieces of paper that we "earn" at our jobs, or maybe we pay back the Nothing with more Nothing (direct deposit into our banks). It's quite funny if you step outside of it a little bit.

Some communities are creating their own paper money. And why not?


Indeed. Imagine how the Chinese must feel. They've sent all kinds of real goods to the US and now they're stuck with some digits and paper that may be worthless. There's been an attempt in my community to create local currency and it's met with mixed results, though it may be an avenue to pursue in the future as the fiat dollar disintegrates.

[Merlyn]

=
=

I think the quality (worth) of the Chinese products
reflects the quality (worth) of the USA Dollar.

Both are worthless junk.

=
=

[gwynned]

=
=

I think the quality (worth) of the Chinese products
reflects the quality (worth) of the USA Dollar.

Both are worthless junk.

=
=

There certainly is lot of junk coming out of China, but your comments are overly broad. There is certainly more intrinsic value in clothing, tools, computers, and furniture made in China. Further, your comments are an insult to the Chinese who in many cases have labored long hours to provide us with real items for our use. Sadly though, and as you alude to, much of their labor has gone into items of little intrinsic value, like fake santa claus's and barbie dolls. But that is the nature of the system which responds to profitable opportunities and not to people's needs.

[Merlyn]

=
=

I should clarify my words.

My comment only reflects upon the quality of the products made by Chinese companies and other associated countries and NOT the Chinese people. Just as
the American people are NOT the Federal Reserve system that prints the USA dollar. I think the people of both countries are mostly very good and would
like to be associated with good products and good will towards each other.

=
=

[gwynned]

=
=

I should clarify my words.

My comment only reflects upon the quality of the products made by Chinese companies and other associated countries and NOT the Chinese people. Just as
the American people are NOT the Federal Reserve system that prints the USA dollar. I think the people of both countries are mostly very good and would
like to be associated with good products and good will towards each other.

=
=

What's wrong with the quality of the Chinese products? There is certainly well constructed clothing coming out of China. And my point is not that the quality is good or bad, but that even a poorly constructed screwdriver has more intrinsic use value that a worthless piece of paper.

[historycircus]

Well said Gwynned,

As for China and goodwill, I would say that that is the ideal, but not the reality. If I was in charge of the Chinese economy, I would be infuriated at the United States and Western Europe right now. Western underwriters of bad mortages knew what they were selling foreign investors, and China, on good faith, snapped a lot of those up - based on the deceptive packaging. The only reason they have not crashed us yet, is because we are a primary market.

Chinese goods rate as acceptable in terms of quality, and it should be remembered that the massive influx of American goods that flooded Europe in the aftermath of WWII were not always of the best quality either. "American made" serves as a patriotic meme more than an index of quality.

[doodah]

[QUOTE=historycircus;47612]

If I was in charge of the Chinese economy, I would be infuriated at the United States and Western Europe right now. QUOTE]

If I were in charge of the Chinese economy I would be beating myself over the head, and perhaps dying from shame, wondering how I got so disconnected from the wisdom of my ancestors. The Chinese, which have traditionally been thought of as "wise and inscrutable," (not including Mao and 20th century politics), somehow stepped off the wisdom platform and into the swamp of modern economics.

Surely they knew the game they were entering. :original: But somehow they fell for it, more's the pity. Let's jump on this modern bandwagon, go global. Let's make our air unbreathable, let's poison our rivers. Let's get in this game. How foolish. What happened to the wisdom?

(I know that's a cliche and a stereotype, but it was a good one, and had some basis in fact.)

[historycircus]

Doodah,

I don't think we can safely assume that China, starting in the late 1990s, did completely understand what they were buying. They were well acquainted with Capitalist theory, but not practical operation. Who were/are they gonna' ask for advice? Russia - a nation experiencing its own learning curve? The United States - a proclaimed enemy for over a half century? I'm not so sure that they did know the game.

But they have learned well. Our economic futures really rest in China's hands - at least as long as global concerns and forces dominate everyday economic activity.

[Rocky_Shorz]

=
=

I should clarify my words.

My comment only reflects upon the quality of the products made by Chinese companies...
=

the floor mats in my car were recalled for lead paint...

Is the count really up over 40,000 babies that are sick from the poison they put in the milk?

Did China really say that though they could help the worlds banking system from collapsing, they have decided not to?

[doodah]

historycircus -- I think I understand why you say what you've said, and I suppose China might not have understood the emptiness of the dollar. Perhaps.

But the real physical effects of globalized industry, that they surely must have understood. After all, the US has demonstrated the results of modern industrial processes for over 50 years. So China went ahead anyway, with the same processes. I'm not aware that they've done anything differently, and the effects are the same -- polluted air, poisoned water. I've never understood why they did that.

As to the monetary stuff, it's true that nobody understands modern finance, including all the people who talk about it.

Here's a very interesting analysis of modern economics:

Economic Models explained with cows...

TRADITIONAL CAPITALISM
You have two cows.
You sell one and buy a bull.
Your herd multiplies, and the economy grows.
You sell them and retire on the income.

SOCIALISM
You have two cows.
You give one to your neighbor who has none.

COMMUNISM
You have two cows.
The State takes both and gives you some milk.

FASCISM
You have two cows.
The State takes both and sells you some milk.

NAZISM
You have two cows.
The State takes both and shoots you.

BUREAUCRATISM
You have two cows.
The State takes both, shoots one, milks the other, and then throws the milk away.

SURREALISM
You have two giraffes.
The government requires you to take harmonica lessons.

AN AMERICAN CORPORATION
You have two cows.
You sell one, and force the other to produce the milk of four cows.
Later, you hire a consultant to analyze why the cow has dropped dead.

THE ANDERSEN MODEL
You have two cows.
You shred them.

A FRENCH CORPORATION
You have two cows.
You go on strike, organize a riot, and block the roads, because you want three cows.

A JAPANESE CORPORATION
You have two cows.
You redesign them so they are one-tenth the size of an ordinary cow and produce twenty times the milk.
You then create a clever cow cartoon image called 'Cowkimon' and market it worldwide.

A GERMAN CORPORATION
You have two cows.
You re-engineer them so they live for 100 years, eat once a month, and milk themselves.

AN ITALIAN CORPORATION
You have two cows, but you don't know where they are.
You decide to have lunch.

A RUSSIAN CORPORATION
You have two cows.
You count them and learn you have five cows.
You count them again and learn you have 42 cows.
You count them again and learn you have 2 cows.
You stop counting cows and open another bottle of vodka.

A SWISS CORPORATION
You have 5000 cows. None of them belong to you.
You charge the owners for storing them.

A CHINESE CORPORATION
You have two cows.
You have 300 people milking them.
You claim that you have full employment, and high bovine productivity.
You arrest the newsman who reported the real situation.

AN INDIAN CORPORATION
You have two cows.
You worship them.

A BRITISH CORPORATION
You have two cows.
Both are mad.

AN IRAQI CORPORATION
Everyone thinks you have lots of cows.
You tell them that you have none.
No-one believes you, so they bomb you and invade your country.
You still have no cows, but at least now you are a Democracy.

A NEW ZEALAND CORPORATION
You have two cows.
Business seems pretty good.
You close the office and go for a few beers to celebrate.

AN AUSTRALIAN CORPORATION
You have two cows.
The one on the left looks very attractive.

ENRON VENTURE CAPITALISM
You have two cows.
You sell three of them to your publicly listed company, using letters of
credit opened by your brother-in-law at the bank, then execute a
debt/equity swap with an associated general offer so that you get all
four cows back, with a tax exemption for five cows.
The milk rights of the six cows are transferred via an intermediary to a
Cayman Island Company secretly owned by the majority shareholder who
sells the rights to all seven cows back to your listed company.
The annual report says the company owns eight cows, with an option on
one more.
You sell one cow to buy a new president of the United States, leaving you with nine cows.
No balance sheet provided with the release.
The public then buys your bull.

[historycircus]

I saw the size of that post and said oh no, what is this. I was dreading poetry. That was hilarious, and will share accordingly.

Thanks!

[doodah]

History - Your dread of poetry is quite understandable. I should have said that the above Economic Models Explained with Cows was sent to me by Bill Ryan about a year ago. He had received it from someone else. I have no idea who wrote it, but it is hilarious.

My point was, I think, in response to your previous post that maybe China didn't know what it was getting into. Actually, they entered the picture at the Enron Venture Capitalist stage of the game, so yeah, maybe they didn't really understand it! Apparently nobody does.

[Rocky_Shorz]

I thought the World Bank meeting was rushed here just in the nick of time for the world financial crisis...

nope

They had it scheduled by their last meeting - Sunday, April 13, 2008:shocked:

[gwynned]

My point was, I think, in response to your previous post that maybe China didn't know what it was getting into. Actually, they entered the picture at the Enron Venture Capitalist stage of the game, so yeah, maybe they didn't really understand it! Apparently nobody does.


Not sure China didn't know or just couldn't stop throwing good money after bad. Here's a comprehensive analysis of why we (in the US) are in the state we're in. Given our circumstances, I don't see how Obama will be able to react much differently. After all, if a vehicle is broken, it doesn't matter who drives it.

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2008/oct2008/bgr1-o13.shtml

The so-called financialization of American capitalism continued and accelerated in the Clinton and George W. Bush years. Amidst waves of corporate downsizing, financial speculation played an ever-greater role in economic life and assumed new and more parasitic forms. One speculative bubble succeeded another: the East Asian collapse was followed by the rise and fall of the dot.com bubble, and was quickly replaced by the subprime mortgage bubble. Securitization of debt became the new model of American banking, based on the conception that high-risk and high-yield investments, sustained by an exponential growth of debt, could continue to expand without limit, since the banks could offload much of the debt to other investors around the world.

The indices of the growth of financial speculation in the US economy are staggering: In 1982, the profits of US financial companies accounted for 5 percent of total after-tax corporate profits. In 2007, they made up 41 percent of corporate profits. (emphasis added) Between 1983 and 2007, the share of the financial sector’s profits in US gross domestic product rose six-fold. The United States, by far the world’s largest debtor nation, with a current account deficit of nearly $800 billion, is today sustained by the importation of $1 trillion in foreign capital every year, or over $4 billion every working day.

[historycircus]

Hi gwynned,

The article by Gray was interesting - for me, from a historical perspective, there is a lot to disagree with him about. I'll spare you that, however, and say that I think his big-picture analysis identifies problem.

The numbers you give here on corporate profits are scary, and I think they underscore the unsustainability of the system as is. Isn't it funny that Democrats in the United States are billed as the economic wizards, and the trillion dollar surplus of 99' is always trotted out (Bam-Bam did it in the debate last Tuesday)? But, as you succinctly put it, that balance and surplus was directly dependent upon the acceleration of speculative venture capitalism. Clinton gets the white wash treatment in history simply because it didn't fall apart on his watch, and as sour and unpleasant as the following words are for me to type, Bush Jr. simply inherited - did not create - the situation we have today (ok, after that last sentence, I need a shower). That being said, the Enron debacle and market crash of 2001 right after 9/11, should have been an eye opener for the White House and Congress, but the Bush administration did nothing, and as adherents to the supply side philosophy (the Laffer curve is no laugher) used the Clintonian mechanisms of high risk market speculation to justify our unprecedented national debt.

Considering all of that, I still think the global economic crisis is the result of bungling and mistakes, not an orchestrated crash. I don't want to dismiss the NWO/Illuminatti crowd who believe that the crash is engineered to bring down tighter control, but, as noted in this thread, I disagree with that scenario. I am more concerned about the way the PTB will try to keep the wounded beast alive, not what they will replace it with.

[droid56]

I know almost nothing about economics, and many of you clearly do know quite a lot about it.

I googled the word "depression", and arrived at a 2005 article that predicted a global depression was coming. In the article, the author said there are 2 kinds of depression, deflationary depression (such as the depression in the 1930's), and hyperinflationary depression (which he said happened in Germany earlier than the Great Depression).

If he is correct that there are 2 kinds of depression, which type might be coming our way? Since the American and other governments are throwing an obscene amount of money at various failing financial institutions, is it safe to assume that this money is not backed by anything real, and that the hyperinflationary type of depression is the only kind of depression that could result from their actions?

[historycircus]

Hi droid,

Glad to have you on-board; feel free to offer your two cents on any of the many topics in this thread.

I am not familiar with the German model at all, and I think the deflationary trend of 1929 and 1930s might not be applicable to our current situation. Back then, industrial leaders and their sources of capital seem to have been taken by surprise (in the sense that stocks on margin were a known gamble, just one that they expected to win); today, however, it is hard for me to believe that educated executives and highly trained economists did not see what was coming. It was deception, not over speculation, that led to recent declines in world markets. They sold a car lot full of lemons, and then sold the dealership before anyone got wise to them.

I think, however, that WE now will experience a dramatic rise in inflation. I have a big family, and I know a lot of people just trying to scrape by. Our paychecks were not stretching like they used to long before the credit card crisis, housing crash, and global banking debacle. That is what happens when you spend billions of dollars a month that you don't have fighting wars that destabilze energy markets. I have noticed a rapid decline in purchasing power beginning with the invasion of Iraq.

That 700 billion certainly will not come from the slashing of social programs or reduced military spending - it will simply be a digital entry on the part of the U.S. Treasury. That means that prices will adjust in market systems (i.e., rise), and we will ultimately pay more for our goods. Never, ever, not once, in the history of the United States and Great Britain, has printing more currency been a successful approach to economic decline - it has only served to make poor people poorer.

[Myra]

I have some thoughts on the economy that I would love to get some responses to:

First: Capitalism (and I'm using a narrow, economic definition: a market system subject to the laws of supply and demand) was born out of colonialism. The death knell of fuedalistic mercantilism was the "discovery" of two continents; one filled with gold, the other with abundant naval resources, and both with potential sources of labor. Capitalism was born through the physical exapansion of nations and resource exploitation.

Second: The very expansion that gave rise to the market systems now practiced globally is required to sustain this particular economic system. Capitalism is unsustainable without continued growth. The economist Keynes understood this very well, and his views drove the expansion of global Capitalism in the last half of the 20th century - despite the weakness of Keynesian economics exposed by the abusrdities of "Regeanomics" in the 1980s. "Rising tides lift all boats" thinking has limped along regardless - for whatever reason (insert illuminati theories here if you wish) - and expansion still means the acquisition of more resources, more territory, etc. What do most economists, politicians, and CEOs agree will spark most of the wars in the 21st Century? Natural resources - primarily fossil fuels and arable land. Capitalism does not necessarily mandate conquest, but that is how it came to be, how it exists today, and is predicted by most involved to continue.

Third: If we were to wake up tomorrow, and all the mechanisms of Capitalism were forever gone, would that really be a bad thing? So what if the dollar collapses? So what if the power goes out and grocery stores run out of food? Such a chaotic event would certainly lead to immediate wide-spread death and destruction on the planet, but is that really any worse than the orderly, well planned death and destruction we have today? The "economic collapse" as spoken of in the mainstream and alternative media is not deserving of the panic it commands.

Just some thoughts - let me know what you think.

It sounds like at this present point in time that Capitalism is an insatiable beast and the World is much too small for it's too ravenous appetite. :(

[historycircus]

Welcome to the thread Myra,

In my opinion investment Capitalism, industrial Capitalism, is indeed a ravenous beast. It needn't be that way, but that is what it has become.

Given the bounce in the markets today (Oct. 13, 2008), I am convinced that "free markets" will be our ticket to ultimate slavery. They are anything but "free." As I said earlier, I am more concerned about the attempts to keep our economic system limping along more than I am about some superimposed system out of nowhere.

How will safe/radiant zones in the future - with a couple of hundred people to feed and clothe - efficiently and fairly produce and distribute goods, avoiding the pitfalls of Capitalism? Are we headed to the rebirth of the exchange economy?

[gwynned]

Hi gwynned,

The article by Gray was interesting - for me, from a historical perspective, there is a lot to disagree with him about. I'll spare you that, however, and say that I think his big-picture analysis identifies problem.

The numbers you give here on corporate profits are scary, and I think they underscore the unsustainability of the system as is. Isn't it funny that Democrats in the United States are billed as the economic wizards, and the trillion dollar surplus of 99' is always trotted out (Bam-Bam did it in the debate last Tuesday)? But, as you succinctly put it, that balance and surplus was directly dependent upon the acceleration of speculative venture capitalism. Clinton gets the white wash treatment in history simply because it didn't fall apart on his watch, and as sour and unpleasant as the following words are for me to type, Bush Jr. simply inherited - did not create - the situation we have today (ok, after that last sentence, I need a shower). That being said, the Enron debacle and market crash of 2001 right after 9/11, should have been an eye opener for the White House and Congress, but the Bush administration did nothing, and as adherents to the supply side philosophy (the Laffer curve is no laugher) used the Clintonian mechanisms of high risk market speculation to justify our unprecedented national debt.

Considering all of that, I still think the global economic crisis is the result of bungling and mistakes, not an orchestrated crash. I don't want to dismiss the NWO/Illuminatti crowd who believe that the crash is engineered to bring down tighter control, but, as noted in this thread, I disagree with that scenario. I am more concerned about the way the PTB will try to keep the wounded beast alive, not what they will replace it with.


Totally agree on Clinton. I'm not suggesting that the crash was orchestrated (though I might agree there have been attempts to direct the decline), nor would I agree that the current situation is the result of bumbling. The real question in my mind is whether or not Marx was right in that, because of the inherent contradictions within the system itself (such as the tendency for profit to decline over time) and because now raw materials come at an increasing cost, is it inevitable that the system will periodically go through convulsions which lead to depressions and which lead to wars. Because if this is true it is pointless to talk about good capitalism or bad capitalism, as 'good' capitalism will inevitably resolve into 'bad' capitalism once the contradictions reach a crescendo and the gloves come off.

[historycircus]

g,

I totally agree - I think that "good" and "bad" are poor distinctions to make; there is no either/or in my mind anymore.

Capitalism is what it is. Forget Marx - right or wrong, and whether he was so on this or that point - we are seeing today that Capitalism is not self-sustaining. It devolves into war, or collapses in on itself - raping its very lifeblood (labor) in hard times. I think that the radiant/safe zones of our future - isolated pockets or the gradual evolution of what we know now - will have to ultimately reject Capitalism if the desire is to avoid war and poverty.

But what to replace it with? How do we move beyond the "buy and sell" mentality. What do we replace Capitalism with, in a world of billions of people? Even enemies of Capitalism with the resources to fight it have given into it. I guess I'm asking, "where do we go from here?"

Your thoughts, and dreams, are welcome.

[Zynox]

Wow, I take a few days away in the woods and return to engaging tangents, all wonderful dialog to digest!

I have resolved upon the following script that feels right, to me -

1) As with most aspects of my observations of discernible facts, we have within this economic environment, an orchestrated plan that has been nudged onto a new path through the elements of chance, luck and/or chaos. We have entered a window, a portal, a stargate or a black-hole (choose whatever analogy resonates) of OPPORTUNITY.

2) Original 'plan' by some was to allow industrialism in the US to be sacrificed to new a profit model, based upon economic wizardry, resulting from increased global competition in the markets of manufacturing. From a strict profit centric motivation, this was rational as sustainability of the US population was not a heavily weighted factor in the equation.

3) The entire country and populous could be abandoned to fend for itself / themselves, as long as a secure fiscal center and conglomerate was left unfettered to perform anarchistic economic wizardry. Most of the US fiscal conglomerate is totally unregulated with the caveat that there is just enough lower level regulation in play to ensure there is a near monopoly and tight control of the top tiers by a few interested parties. Evidence of this is surfacing as smaller local banks are allowed to fail, one just this past week 20 miles from my home (Main Street Bank in Northville, MI), while the networked and connected controlling entities write fiscal policy and coerce the token US government to adhere.

4) The fiscal conglomerate does not care much if the Chinese, or others swoop in and buy prime property with infinite dollar reserves and absorbs the excess underutilized manufacturing capital and facilities in the US. The interested controlling parties are the financiers of it all, they don't have much concern who lives, dies, resides or runs the tool and die business, it is immaterial on most levels as they feel they have transcended production.

5) As long as these parties keep a secure environment in NY, which they feel they have secured via 911 and US Executive Order revisions to the rules of the game (constitution and laws), all feels ok in the realm, to the financiers.

6) At the top, there is incestuous squabbles and power struggles that ensure an element of chaos interlopes into the machinations, as there is no single king or tyrant. Under slower flows, these groups work out their differences and realign and come back to relative harmony, but this current environment went a little different than planned, and chaos may not be fully modeled.

7) The universe is not fully understood by any individual, group, organization, nation, government or the 'illuminati', so, further exterior chaos shows up in the model and begins a sequence of unintended consequence.

8) We shall see, I have enormous hope that a combination of various energies take this situation into amazing realms of paradigm imploding and exploding states, as I feel we are coming close to anarchy for all, which as I stated in many posts, will open up incredible vistas in sovereignty, progressive energy, community and human to human relationship / spiritual potentials. The top has been holding genuine anarchy as a coveted secret and the greatest fear they have is loss of control.

Never underestimate the chaos factor of creation!

Never underestimate the ingenuity and capacity for compassion of sovereign individuals!

Never underestimate the butterfly effect and impact of your alignment and the influence of the projections of your emotions and thoughts!

Are you ready to create and radiate, are you ready to love, are you ready to shift into empowerment and responsibility, as you dis-empower through disengagement with old models and energies?

In one single act, withdraw of all funds from all fiscal institutions, each individual could remove an approximate 9 to 1 vapor paper amplification factor from the fiscal elite. Does each have the courage to create their own economy, based upon their own ethics and virtues, abandoning the moral hazard?

Can we separate a desire for a past cozy complicit agreement that has been demonstrated to be unsustainable? Can we quit living off the backs of others, step into our power and be creators?

~ namaste and love ~

[THE PEACEFUL WARRIOR]

Hey Zynox,

Great post buddy..AGREED..nuff said!

Keep the pedal to the metal coz were already locked in for the ride!

PEACE OUT :biggrin2:

[Brinty]

Australia's prime minister, Kevin Rudd has announced a finance package that among other things offers new home buyers a grant of AU$14,000 and if the owner chooses to build a new home rather than buy an existing one, this grant will increase to AU$21,000. That's got to be good news in anyone's language. :original:

[historycircus]

Thanks for the post Zynox,

If you don’t mind, I would like you to clarify a few of your points, and share with you my thoughts on what you wrote. Given the volume, and to make it easier for readers, I’ll just number my responses in accordance with that in your recent post.

1. I think I posted this elsewhere, on a thread that hyped the “crisis” nature of our current economic situation. The gist of it was that for the Chinese, the word “crisis” is an synonym for “opportunity,” and perhaps we could learn from that duality.
2. NAFTA and other international economic arrangements with so-called “third world” are, in my mind, the strongest proofs for those who argue for the existence of the NWO/Illuminatti/Mason/Nazi/Catholic/Satanist/Zeta/Zionist/Annunaki/ “your space here” type of organizations. These agreements don’t make sense. Forget what they have done to U.S. cities like Detroit, St. Louis, and Cincinnati; look at what they have done to countries like Mexico and India. Mexico is an OSHA free playground for all industries, and the Indian government seems to want nothing better for its people than poverty and lower middle class status. I think India is a wild card that those of us concerned about China must consider. They are just as populous as China, and less wedded to U.S./Western European cultural forms. Resource poor, but capital and spirit rich, India seems poised, to me, to be a major force in negotiation and economic brokerage in the future.
3. If it ever gets that bad – we will be the power structure’s primary concern. While some of us are more than willing to voice our disdain at the ballot, they will have to deal with riots. Imagine L.A. after three weeks of no gasoline at all – forget intermittent delivery. As for the other point on 3, never forget that for the most part, no matter how jaded or personally enriched the local main street banker has become, he or she is more likely to be a real and good person than the top ten percent of the industry. Most of the local banks, business, and government officials will be just as confused as the regular folks. They’re getting fuxed too, my friend.
4. Agreed – Well said.
5. New York is just old real estate, I think, in this technology driven age. NY is a symbol – nothing more. An effective symbol mind you – it’s perils have done exactly what you said. But it is irrelevant.
6. I want you to explain, if you will, the phrase “incestuous squabbles,” my good friend Zynox. In that phrase, I sense, is imbedded a less than skeptical belief in the special bloodlines theories presented on this forum and on other venues. Some of the symbolism has me interested, and your clear interpretation would be valued – I’ll understand if you don’t want to lay that one out there.
7. I like to think of the universe as a well oiled machine; it runs on balance. Light/dark, good/evil, low/high vibration – its all there, and not about one besting the other on a mud-ball speckled map of the galaxy. Its about balance. Too much of one or the other messes the whole thing up. We keep getting stuck with the dark/evil/low vibration stuff for so long, we’re bound to forget what’s coming around the corner to balance it out. Besides, if I’m not mistaken, chaos is prized by the supposed Illuminati – “from chaos is order,” you know? I say screw chaos, and support the universe.
8. We are co-creators – and I share your sense of hope.

Thanks for the post Z, and others as well.

[Zynox]

My friend HC,

2) I did indeed post US centric, and deeply respect that the balance of the globe is further abused, by generally US based economic hit men (reference Perkins books) ... interestingly, my time in Costa Rica, Peru, Italy and Mexico have all exposed me to abject poverty and happier children, probably because there is less tv electomagnetic/spiritual pollution, and, fewer bike helmets and dotting soccer moms ... kids run around bare foot next to cliffs, and yet, they thrive ...

Beware, my hometown of birth, Detroit, is nearing ghost status, it never had the housing boom and there is a mass exodus, from so many midwestern rust belt communities, crumbling infrastructure and vast tracts of vacant and burned domiciles ... and now, forests are coming back, in the middle of the city, and chickens roam as wildlife returns ... surreal ...

3) Frankly, it really already is that bad, and we will collectively face challenges in building anew, we, my friend, have crashed, all that remains is intense fallout ... the time is absolutely now, there will be no CITIZEN BAILOUTS or TAXPAYER BAILOUTS, so we best get cracking, disengage from the failed models and create the radiant new economies and zones, WE MUST DO THIS, no government was ever capable. The deck chairs on the titanic have been rearranged, enough!

For proof that the crash is here and near complete, reference year to date losses in all markets across the globe at: Markets YTD (http://www.indexq.org/wide.php)

It is time, not to riot, not to whine, any of us, but to reach to a neighbor in need, be friends, work together and share our skills and resources ... NOTHING ELSE WILL WORK, we must claim our sovereignty and declare the governments irrelevant, by becoming and embracing, our power.

We must remove any level of participation in any and all paper games, which serve and enable the elite financiers.

6) I went down the bloodline rabbithole and never formed much opinion beyond that it was possible and curious. I was referring to the War in Heaven (http://communityvisionblog.ning.com/forum/topic/show?id=2347170%3ATopic%3A182) material, which feels more aligned as a game script. If it is close, then in the top ranks, the most mind control has been performed and fractured Manchurians misfire, and misbehave ... I suspect much in fighting at the top, as they each scramble to be the pinnacle of the pyramid ... wait until they find out they are mere food for others and not close to the real top of the food chain ... ouch!


7) We disagree on chaos impact some, I feel it, by nature, defeats order, and those with plots and schemes find things out of control, as feedback loops get interrupted, just like in physics or electronics when 'noise' enters systems and equations.

I do agree we have been down one directed and defined path so very long that we are very close to the new age, the golden age, the age I want to support ushering in.

~ i am tired :sleep_1: so the post is best i may offer this moment ~

~ much love ~

and:

New NWO Meme ~ Please Spread it (HPH Sanctioned) (http://www.projectavalon.net/forum/showthread.php?t=5412)

[historycircus]

Z - I can get down with the New World Orgasm! That is an NWO I could work for! Ha!

Many tribal societies believed - and still believe - that the tangible world we percieve is only a small part of a much larger, invisible world that surrounds us. It is a world we have access to - no change in vibration needed - but we have collectively moved further and further away from the doorways as we become creatures more and more disassociated with the natural world. If we are to truly evolve beyond what we are now, to cast off the modern paradigms of use, abuse, and control, I think we may need to take a giant, material step backwards in time. I think the PTB know this, that is why they are down in the lifeboats, applying silly putty to the hull, despite the fact that the boat is sinking only a few hundred yards from a coconut laden island of plenty.

[Zynox]

Sir HC,

Interestingly, while a few have had a good laugh, the genuine response of folks interested in wearing such a shirt, and propagating a new meme, it quite sparse. I feel this means that we collectively have much to continue to shudder and shake off, like slowly shedding dead skin, and stale crust from that past world, as we evolve towards the new.

Perhaps it is just that the old world refused to sanction my gateway expression towards the new, i dunno!

One thing is for sure, the handlers have used sexuality as a control tool for eons untold, and, that my friend, speaks volumes ... meanwhile, most of my family genuinely perceives obama will be some form of change ... there are some dayz i question my sanity, in such a minuscule minority ... the 'humorous' exchange at the roast the other eve with all the puppets was most discouraging, as the candidates jab each other in jest, smirking chimps all ... as the globe and her people, yearn, for a freaking orgasm ...

~ much love ~

[historycircus]

Good morning Z,

I agree - that roast video was disgusting. Without applying a label to the old power paradigm that may be wrong, whatever it is, Obama seems to fit right in. Obama's popularity, in my estimation, has less to do with him as a candidate than it does with the dissatisfaction of the American people with their culture, politics, and economy. It has all gone to shxt - our teenagers are out killing each other on the streets like the "greens" and "blues" at Justinian's Hippodrome, our politicians no longer hide their contempt for us (i.e., Joe Sixpack), all while our property values and legal tender lose what has always been pretended worth. Quite frankly, the Democrats could have put their donkey up for the nomination, and McCain would still be fighting in Florida. Obama is to the United States what Valerian was to the Roman empire - we will have to wait and see. I suspect, since Obama has not come out in opposition to the great lie of terrorism and has promised troop increases in Afghanistan, Obama will figuratively share Valerian's fate as well.

This leads me to an important question about McCain: if "we," and I use that term loosely, are operating off of an old script, dancing on cue for the Machiavellian producers of this tragedy, would not the election of McCain represent improvisation? McCain is not ideologically wedded to the loons on the right or left. Think about it. If this has all been planned in advance, all the terrible stuff we see today is merely orchestration on the part of the nefarious, then someone eight years ago probably hypothosized that the 2008 election would go terribly bad for Republicans. Is that why McCain was allowed to get the Republican nomination? As a final kick in the rear by the Bush cabal - "give it to him, the old ******* will just lose anyway." I can hear those words leaving Karl Rove's mouth. Obama, then, represents the script - the peaceful transfer of power takes place right on cue. And Obama gets elected, mind you, he will have a majority in both houses of Congress - unlimited power served up on a platter. McCain has not exactly been the greatest human being alive - years in a Vietnamese POW camp didn't help him brush up on his respect for women or realize the futility of war. But something tells me he is as much an outsider as one can be after decades in Congress.

It is natural to question one's sanity when dealing with these topics Zynox, especially when every human being you come in contact with every single day of your life refuses to even entertain that there MIGHT be script. Even the hypothetical consideration can be jarring for most. And when you do find another air breather in the flesh to speak with about it all, those encounters are few and far between. Sometimes I envy those who are still asleep. However, no matter how much scorn or disinterest is heaped upon us by our friends and family, the coming times, I tend to believe, will do more to wake them up than anything we could ever say - any video on youtube or any declassified document on the FOIA database. The challenge for us will be, when they do wake up, to fight the "I told you so" response we have been programmed to give, and instead ask them, "where do we go from here?"

The manipulation of sexuality is old hat - it is just one of the many issues thrown at us to keep us sqabbling and distracted from what is really important. It happens on the left and the right. The extreme right wing of this country, I am convinced, would like to have good old fashioned public burnings held by the church - "lets burn them gays at the stake in front of our children in the name of morality." I think the extreme left would like to have the mechanics of butt sex explained to our Kindergarteners right before they pass out the free condoms. Its all a game, but it depends upon our willingness to play. While the short term may be filled with dangerous absurdities the likes of which we have yet to imagine, I never lose hope that we will someday move beyond it all.

[gwynned]

Good morning Z,

Think about it. If this has all been planned in advance, all the terrible stuff we see today is merely orchestration on the part of the nefarious, then someone eight years ago probably hypothosized that the 2008 election would go terribly bad for Republicans. Is that why McCain was allowed to get the Republican nomination? As a final kick in the rear by the Bush cabal - "give it to him, the old ******* will just lose anyway."

I think the extreme left would like to have the mechanics of butt sex explained to our Kindergarteners right before they pass out the free condoms. Its all a game, but it depends upon our willingness to play. While the short term may be filled with dangerous absurdities the likes of which we have yet to imagine, I never lose hope that we will someday move beyond it all.

HC,

Your comments couldn't have come at a better time. I was just poking myself in the eye with an ice pick to calm myself after trying to explain to an Obama fan that he just might not be whom he appears to be. And yes, McCain was the throw away.

A small point, but an important one. You confuse LEFTism with Liberalism. The liberal agenda has dovetailed the capitalist agenda precisely in this manner - by perpertrating a victim and anything goes mentality that has decimated and disempowered the working class and is now working on the middle class. This is not a true leftist strategy where the goal would be to empower the working class.

[historycircus]

Hi gwynned,

I'll concede the point to you on technical grounds - the "left" and "liberalism" are traditionally speaking, two different animals. However, our political system has allowed them to evolve in tandem over the last half century, so much so that that I think both make up the ideologic core of the Democratic Party. They are so closely wedded in that organization, that I think supporters of that party can no longer cherry-pick one over the other. Does that make sense? At least for the current election cycle, and maybe the next. I am tempted to say the "left" proper, except in the arena of economy, is a dead movement in the United States - Liberalism is the predominant party philosophy.

I almost feel sorry for McCain - did anyone here see Colin Powell on Meet the Press this morning? A few posts back, we all were discussing scripts. Anyone get the sense he was reading from one, as he endorsed Obama through clenched teeth, and a similarly reacting sphincter?

[Knightbk]

While the short term may be filled with dangerous absurdities the likes of which we have yet to imagine, I never lose hope that we will someday move beyond it all.


We will move beyond it and be relatively "all right" in the long term, but the old style of living out of our means is done and gone, forever.

Keep in mind that people on forums like this (and others) take a "worst case" scenario to the world view and that isn't realistic. We generally think that everything is going to collapse, there will be looting and rioting on all the streets and billions will die due to starvation and violence or exposure to the elements.

The United States will come out of this economic crisis in much better shape than the "worst case" scenarios people predict.

There wont be "millions dying" in the US, Death Camps, etc, etc.

What people fail to realize at the end of the day is that Rich and Poor alike, we are all connected and nobody in the West wants things to collapse. Even the East doesn't want us to collapse, though they do want more power and influence.

The world WILL find a way to "save" our system. There are very smart people out there working on this and they will do it.



Now does that mean we are going to go back to how we have lived the last 15 years? No, that is done. The world is going to change.

In 10 or 15 years from now you will look back and say "ya it got bad but we survived".

This is what is coming:
Lower living standards. It wont be third world but it wont be like it has been. People will not have 14 Plasma TV's in the home, 3 Cell Phones for the kids, Eat out 14 times a week, drive Hummers to go to work, have 6000 sq ft homes with granite counter tops, etc, etc.

So what if we dont have all that ****, did it really make a difference to our lives anyways?

No, we still have an empty whole in our soul due to lack of purpose.


There are MANY MANY benefits that we will gain from living a simpler life and people refuse to look at these benefits, but they are there and they are very tangible.

Community matters
Family matters
Friends matters
Spirituality matters
The environment matters.


There is a gaping whole that fills EVERY person in this world and the continual pursuit of more "stuff" only fills it for a short time. The next few years will teach people to fill that whole with what matters, not what doesn't matter.


We will be better off for it.

[Zynox]

The world WILL find a way to "save" our system. There are very smart people out there working on this and they will do it.

K,

I enjoy most of your perspective, and we are mostly in alignment. However, the LAST thing i want to see is anyone saving our system! Our system has, for far too long, directly demonstrated itself to be build upon blood, sweat and tears of others across the planet, and finally, those within our borders. Not to be cruel, but it took self cannibalism to collectively awaken, and, we are still groggy! LET US NOT HAVE REFORM, LET US CREATE.

I will keep folks here updated on what I see when I 'hit the ground' in a few weeks, leaving my home, familiar surrounding and becoming, proactively, homeless. I am non-electively unemployed for the first time in my many seasons and have given away most of those pesky possessions. I am not nudging anyone to do what I am doing, only presenting it to help bust up some paradigms. We are not stuck, we are sovereign, we are change, and, we are most powerful, when we align to purpose.

I watched a challenging documentary on the state of the state this weekend, and I encourage any and all to watch it if you seek a final nudge to become active in change:

What A Way To Go
Life At The End Of Empire (http://www.whatawaytogomovie.com/)

~ much love ~

[historycircus]

What people fail to realize at the end of the day is that Rich and Poor alike, we are all connected and nobody in the West wants things to collapse. Even the East doesn't want us to collapse, though they do want more power and influence.

The world WILL find a way to "save" our system. There are very smart people out there working on this and they will do it. In 10 or 15 years from now you will look back and say "ya it got bad but we survived".

This is what is coming:
Lower living standards. It wont be third world but it wont be like it has been. People will not have 14 Plasma TV's in the home, 3 Cell Phones for the kids, Eat out 14 times a week, drive Hummers to go to work, have 6000 sq ft homes with granite counter tops, etc, etc.

Knightbk,

Welcome to the thread. On the one hand, I have to agree with the latter part of your post. The way we live our lives today is unsustainable. A dramatic sea change is needed to prevent environmental collapse, and promote internal and international peace.

But in a free society, the fine line between need and want can be razor thin. Capitalism and the acquistion of wealth have deep roots in the American and Western psyches (enter Max Weber's "The Spirit of Capitalism"), so much so that for most people alive today a permanent devolution from what has become normal will always be viewed as just that - something less than normal. Survival won't be good enough. Economic decline and poverty in this country have historically led to riots and rebellion. While a lack of Hummers and cell phones per household may indeed be what the world needs, a fundamental change in the psychology of America and the Western world will have to take place before the population accepts it as such. What did the people who lived through the Great Depression do the moment they could? Consume, consume, consume; hoard, hoard, hoard. In a sense, the Great Depression was not traumatic enough to change the "spirit of Capitalism," and neither will the crash of 2008.

As for those "smart" ones at the top, diligently working to preserve the sytem as is, their success will lead to 6000 square foot homes, and a Hummer and cell phone for every one of their family members. Capitalism is the ultimate pyramid scheme, is it not? (Double entendre intended.) If the bottom 90% have to experience a "decline in living standards," why not the top 10% too? Why should we consent to allowing that top 10% live off of the blood and sweat of our children's labor, and our children's children's labor? Capitalism has always been an inequitable system of production and exchange, and as discussed earlier in this thread, a system that cannot survive without expansion and exploitation of environmental and human resources. Those at the top will live lifestyles that are environmentally damaging and exploitative of the masses as long as we continue to consent.

I will have to agree with Zynox - a world where the present system survives is not a future I want my grandchildren to inherit. That is not to say I want them to inherit a world without laws or the Republican (as in the political philosophy, not the political party) spirit. But, preserving the current economic system is to preserve inequity and exploitation, and to invite environmental and cultural collapse. Are not the mechanisms of Capitalism dangerous to Democracy? If our politicians could be made subject to the rule of the people (as they were in the American Revolution, and arguably, still are), why not corporate America? I think the time has come for us to decide: are we men and women, or are we cogs? Are we markets, or are we communities? My fear is that the timeframe in which we make that descision for ourselves is incredibly short - and our indecision will allow others to make it for us.

[historycircus]

I have just finished listening to the Jeff Rense interview with B. Fulford, and that was following the second Bob Dean interview. I have a few thoughts and questions for the group.

Both Dean and Fulford - as well as George Green and half the other whistleblowers interviewed through Camelot, Rense, Coast to Coast, etc. - invoked the horrors of the Federal Reserve. This institution seems to be at the heart of every conspiracy theory known under the sun in this century, and the last. There have been entire threads here on Avalon dedicated to the fight against this institution. That the Fed is bad is the consensus, I both get it, and agree with it.

But something Bob Dean said struck me: "one world government" is a necessary step on our evolutionary path - to move beyond what we are now as a species. Capitalism has the mechanisms in place to facilitate the growth of a one world government quickly, and allows for the practice of democracy. No matter what the theory - from Nibiru to more conventional "global climate change" - it appears that we need to unite as a species if we want to survive the coming years, and with great haste. Can we use the structures that exist, "rinse" them (thanks Zynox), and use them in a more equitable and noble purpose?

Capitalism has become a boogeyman, demonized even by myself, but I wonder now if it cannot be salvaged. Roses are not without their thorns, right? Capitalism has been steered since the turn of the 20th century toward uber-exploitation, but it has been the Federal Reserve in the driver's seat. They are the clearinghouse of capital upon which the markets depend. Can we simply purge the system of the "Fed," and preserve our market economy? Or is Capitalism too badly damaged, or too inherently corrupt, to rehabilitate?

And one more question. There is another side to developing a more, shall we call it, "enlightened capitalism." Fulford said, and I'm paraphrasing here, "people who go to work are selling poison soda to people. It's meaningless. People should be deciding to do something worthwhile, like making Mars green . . . ." Should we, the people, have a larger role as capital brokers for industrial development? Do we have a duty to do so, for the creation and maintenance of MEANINGFUL industries and projects? Since the taxpayers now own banks, and will probably be acquiring a few mortages along the way, and will soon be cutting corporate welfare checks to failing industry, perhaps this is the moment we take it all back? Maybe it is our duty to take it all back? Maybe we need an amendment to the constitution titled something like "The Industrial Oversight Amendment"? I don't want to come off as the ghost of Marx or anything, but perhaps we are confronting a future where the people need more, democratic control over the means of production; or in the new-fangled lingo of the Neo-Marxists, the people should restructure the relationships of production. And I ask this, is it not our moral duty to do so? If we don't, what kind of world are we leaving for our great great great grandchildren?

What you think? Grab the hose, or let the fuxer burn?

[Knightbk]

I will have to agree with Zynox - a world where the present system survives is not a future I want my grandchildren to inherit. That is not to say I want them to inherit a world without laws or the Republican (as in the political philosophy, not the political party) spirit. But, preserving the current economic system is to preserve inequity and exploitation, and to invite environmental and cultural collapse. Are not the mechanisms of Capitalism dangerous to Democracy? If our politicians could be made subject to the rule of the people (as they were in the American Revolution, and arguably, still are), why not corporate America? I think the time has come for us to decide: are we men and women, or are we cogs? Are we markets, or are we communities? My fear is that the timeframe in which we make that descision for ourselves is incredibly short - and our indecision will allow others to make it for us.


The system may or may not decide, it depends but we won't see a "collapse" like many people think. When I say a "collapse" I am talking about the starvation of half the North American population.

Personally, I believe we are being pushed to new forms of Socialism. The Liberals have been pushing "equality" and all sorts of things for 2 generations now, which makes most of what the young believe, to be inline with Socialism.

What will arise out of this mess is a new system where a new form of Socialism takes form, probably similar to Canada but with government owned banks and utilities.

I don't mind Socialism too much, however extreme forms of socialism are evil, because the Socialistic system lives and dies on people agreeing with it. Dissenters need to be removed from the system. In a capitalistic society, dissenter just become poor.


I have just finished listening to the Jeff Rense interview with B. Fulford, and that was following the second Bob Dean interview. I have a few thoughts and questions for the group.

Both Dean and Fulford - as well as George Green and half the other whistleblowers interviewed through Camelot, Rense, Coast to Coast, etc. - invoked the horrors of the Federal Reserve. This institution seems to be at the heart of every conspiracy theory known under the sun in this century, and the last. There have been entire threads here on Avalon dedicated to the fight against this institution. That the Fed is bad is the consensus, I both get it, and agree with it.

But something Bob Dean said struck me: "one world government" is a necessary step on our evolutionary path - to move beyond what we are now as a species. Capitalism has the mechanisms in place to facilitate the growth of a one world government quickly, and allows for the practice of democracy. No matter what the theory - from Nibiru to more conventional "global climate change" - it appears that we need to unite as a species if we want to survive the coming years, and with great haste. Can we use the structures that exist, "rinse" them (thanks Zynox), and use them in a more equitable and noble purpose?

Capitalism has become a boogeyman, demonized even by myself, but I wonder now if it cannot be salvaged. Roses are not without their thorns, right? Capitalism has been steered since the turn of the 20th century toward uber-exploitation, but it has been the Federal Reserve in the driver's seat. They are the clearinghouse of capital upon which the markets depend. Can we simply purge the system of the "Fed," and preserve our market economy? Or is Capitalism too badly damaged, or too inherently corrupt, to rehabilitate?

And one more question. There is another side to developing a more, shall we call it, "enlightened capitalism." Fulford said, and I'm paraphrasing here, "people who go to work are selling poison soda to people. It's meaningless. People should be deciding to do something worthwhile, like making Mars green . . . ." Should we, the people, have a larger role as capital brokers for industrial development? Do we have a duty to do so, for the creation and maintenance of MEANINGFUL industries and projects? Since the taxpayers now own banks, and will probably be acquiring a few mortages along the way, and will soon be cutting corporate welfare checks to failing industry, perhaps this is the moment we take it all back? Maybe it is our duty to take it all back? Maybe we need an amendment to the constitution titled something like "The Industrial Oversight Amendment"? I don't want to come off as the ghost of Marx or anything, but perhaps we are confronting a future where the people need more, democratic control over the means of production; or in the new-fangled lingo of the Neo-Marxists, the people should restructure the relationships of production. And I ask this, is it not our moral duty to do so? If we don't, what kind of world are we leaving for our great great great grandchildren?

What you think? Grab the hose, or let the fuxer burn?



Capitalism is a good system as a whole, with proper regulation but it really depends on the people in the system. In the 40's and 50's, the "Greatest Generation" in World War 2 had come out of the Depression and War and were willing to spread the wealth a bit. The subsequent generations (Baby Boomers) were more selfish. Generation X and Y are totally self absorbed and only care about themselves, hence we are OK we firing 2000 people to give ourselves a pay rise.

What impact does that have on Capitalism?

The impact is that the more selfish the generation, the greater the divide becomes between people. People only care about themselves and not about the community, and they do anything to get ahead.

Eventually the system collapses due to greed.

Right now, we are only a few steps above Feudalism.


The Federal Reserve is **** because it prints up money for the Government, and charges interest. Basically, it steals money from the people, directly.

[adam]

dear history circus,

there has been a long-term argument in international relations theory about what you just mentioned....

the anarchial space that exists betwen states. can it be eliminated? if so, does it require a one-world government...

according to liberal internationalism, no. there are so-called "rules to the game" which is the institutionalization of international norms of engagement that can govern the so-called anarchy that exists on the international stage.

is a one-world government necessary for our evolution as human beings in this temproral space? no.

however, i will say that there is a trend toward (and it will be gaining great speed) the stronger institutionalization of norms governing the foreign policy of nation-states.

the cry started after WWII when it became blindingly apparent that sometimes a country cannot govern itself and protect its own citizens from crimes due to the failure of state-level institutions (i.e., the holocaust).

many say that the 6th day of ethics/blossoming of the mayan calendar will start here next month. i would agree on a spiritual level....

expect to see a greater trend toward regional integration as the sovereignty of individual nations has been slowly erroded over the years by such things as globalization of trade, communications, transnational civil society organizations, the internationalization of rules of democratic governance, etc....

there is strength in numbers. however, sovereignty and cutural differences are vast. a one-world government is an impossibility.... however a confederacy of states on a regional level is quite possible given geographic, language, and racial barriers that still do dominate our thought processes.

I would also like to mention the trend toward democratization. Liberalism stresses the importance of self expression. This is something people tend to take for granted when discussing the rich tapestry of human existence by debasing our evolution and referring to us as "sheep".

Dr. Deagle brings a lot to the table. I do however wonder at times if his expansive view of the present has not skewed his vision of the future. It is easy to be bogged down in the mire of destruction that surrounds us, but....


a slight shift in the paradigm that describes our human thought processes... a so-called shift from linear to non-linear thinking would immediately change all of this (2012 emergence of a new paradigm).

food for thought.

peace :drinks_wine:

[MMe M]

Perhaps silver, gold, and platinum exude a field magnetic (or magic), in conjunction with other magnetic and gravitational fields, that keeps us paying attention - for some reason.

Hell, I don't know.

Honest money has been long gone before you and I were born. Andrew Jackson, despite being a disgusting, racist, Indian hating killer, warned us about transferring our system to paper. He hated Biddle, the father of our central banking system. His hate was probably wrong, but his apprehension about the use of paper, symbolic script seems right on.

I dunno, Jackson fought against federalization of the states, he made efforts to limit the power of the afluent elite. He ousted the brits from New Orleans and killed a man in a duel to defend his wifes honor. He's awright by my standards. Weve had far worse presidents.

What killed all the indians was destroying their food source by way of slaughtering millions of bison, taking their lands from them and educating their children. A genocide practiced by the government through more than one president.

[historycircus]

Knight,

All economic systems look good on paper - socialism and capitalism are both fantastic models of production and exhange. Its when people get involved with that rascally self interest that things fall apart. Extreme self interest - greed - allows for the development of the pyramid in both systems. It turns capitalism into a free-for-all where starvation and poverty are called freedom, and dignity and humanitarian sentiment are valued in relation to their neutral impact on profit margins. Socialism outright rejects the necessity of poverty and starvation, but greed at the top can lead to them anyway - and the people are FORCED to call them freedom. What is it about our nature as a species that does this? What does that say about us as a collective? Can we artificially develop mechanisms to prevent self-interest from derailing either system, while at the same time ensuring, at the very least, those rights enumerated in the first ten amendments to the U.S. constitution?

Also, keep in mind that the so-called "greatest generation" did not come back to "spread the wealth," they came back to accumulate it. Nothing like a great depression and the bloodiest global conflict in recorded human history to make a man want a new stove, ten children, and that fabulous patch of grass out in front of that new house, eh? It was their quest for affluence - what Marx described as the endless condition of the beourgious - that drove the post-war economy, not a humanitarian desire to spread the wealth. The latter would have been dismissed as "Commie talk" anyway. And, despite their massive consumption, it was the GI Bill that ultimately fixed the U.S. economy, not the New Deal, WWII, or the rapacious consumption of the 1950s.

Adam, :welcomeani:

Welcome to the thread! I tend to agree with those who argue that a one world government is not necessary - and I like the notion of a confederated structure over some sort of formal, sovereignty dispensing union. The species is too culturally disparite in the present age for such a structure to exist anyway, as you pointed out in your post. We all know how smashingly successful the U.N. turned out, right? Many will argue for such a global superstructure in the name of peace, neglecting the fact that sometimes there are things worth fighting for. I guess the question I am seeking an answer to is not so much "is a one world government necessary," as it is "is a one world government a natural stage in the evolution of a spiritual, sentient species?" Under current paradigms, it would lead to the further enslavement of the many for the benefit of the very, very few. By the way, I too think the "sheep" thing has to stop - such labels smack of the very elitist pretensiousness that has turned this world to shxt, and I never fail to see the sad irony behind the use of the term by the so-called "enlightened."

I do not believe that a shift in human thinking - from linear to cyclical - will reduce the amount of bloodshed we as a species create among ourselves. All Native American cultures in North and South America - especially the Mayans - held to the cyclical worldview. Warfare became highly ritualized - often treated as sacred - but was not eliminated.

MMe M,

How many bison were wondering around northern Georgia in 1830? Are all the Indians dead? Do you really idealize a man who kills other men because of personal, verbal insults directed to his wife?

You must clarify, but I thank you for your thoughts.


This thread has really seen a big boost in quality in the last couple of pages, and remains a refuge for civility - for that I want to take one more sentence and thank you all.

[samncheese]

Capitalism requires a form of slavery. The masses must agree to be enslaved in debt to make a few wealthy. Someone must work for next to nothing so the other slaves will buy it cheap enough to go out get into more debt. Now all are inslaved to debt (but a few), The question shouldn't be is capitalizm bad? The question is what do you replace it with???

Comunism sucked, what do you put in it's place??? I suggest that something new must happen to man and his lust for power must change before the way we deal with each other, on a global scale, will change.

I am not saying we are all power hungery, but there seems to be just enouph of the type in each group to screw things up.

[historycircus]

Hi Samncheese,

I know there is a lot of stuff out there that speaks of debt as an evil thing, but dig this. Let's say I'm broke - flat broke. No change, no gold, no assets. You are my best friend, and have money that does not need to be spent for two weeks. The only way for me to get back and forth to work for the week, and pick up my paycheck on Friday, is to find someone to borrow twenty bucks from. I turn to you, my best friend, and you loan me twenty bucks - essentially making me a loan, expecting repayment, and allowing me to fall into debt.

Am I evil for asking for, then taking the loan? Are you evil for loaning it to me, and promoting my debt? Is that not what the capitalist system is supposed to do on a much larger scale? Are all forms of credit/debt immoral? These questions, I think, steer the discussion here right back to the original intent I had when starting this thread - to discuss practical and useful ways for those who will be a part of future safe/radiant zones to engage in economic activity. For that Samncheese, I thank you greatly.

So, what do you all think?

[adam]

Hi Samncheese,

Am I evil for asking for, then taking the loan? Are you evil for loaning it to me, and promoting my debt? Is that not what the capitalist system is supposed to do on a much larger scale? Are all forms of credit/debt immoral? These questions, I think, steer the discussion here right back to the original intent I had when starting this thread - to discuss practical and useful ways for those who will be a part of future safe/radiant zones to engage in economic activity. For that Samncheese, I thank you greatly.

So, what do you all think?

dear history circus,

i think spreading the vibration of abundance is crucial to the upliftment of the group. People these days are far more responsive to such notions. The 80s are over. This is the fundamental difference between 3rd density, solar plexus fear and what people call 4th density heart/harmony/abundance.

I think the Ra material referred to 4th density as the "green ray" and said that it is already here, but its a matter of people aligning themselves with this vibration.

Only ten years ago, I was barely able to speak to people about such things as abundance and heart "vibrations" without being labeled a crazy new age hipster w/ absolutely no idea about what's really going on.

These days, I speak and say "heart vibration" and people nod and say "yes!" I think the radiant zone is non-physical. I think the radiant zone is one's aura which radiates peace and upliftment and abundance to those who are still in the dark.

But lo, the dark isnt a comfortable place anymore and people want out. Sure some want to stay still, but even simple eye contact w/ people these days is enough to spread the radiant zone.

So to answer your question, I believe it is individual effort and the radiance of joy which is the presence of one's soul in daily life that transforms a waiting world.

peace :harp:

[Zynox]

the anarchial space that exists betwen states. can it be eliminated? if so, does it require a one-world government...

~ how about, we take sovereign responsibility for ourselves, at every layer and level, then trust each other, and then, finally, quit trumping the opportunity and potential for anarchy ... take a look, my friends, the 'top' already runs this way, in anarchy, without law, without consent ... all we see is stage play, to ensure that we don't start wondering if this anarchy card might be good for all, a ticket to salvation, so, to, speak ...

~ and to another poster, yes, it is, in fact a house of cards, otherwise, why would the newly released bailout / welfare deal documents (( whereby the deals are documented where the government initiates wholesale wealth transfers to banks and fiscal (whore)houses )) have so much redacted and blacked out? our collective tolerance and distraction, coupled with deception, are the framework holding up the house ~ WAIT UNTIL THAT BUTTERFLY FLAPS ITS WING!!!!

Does anyone rationally think that the street value of the dollar should be increasing, in these moments, or that the street value of gold should be falling (it IS not, try to buy anything at a coin store at published spot prices) ... and once one consciously (WITHOUT EMOTION or 'beliefs') answers these questions, then, well, the veils drop, and the emperor ~ GASP ~ is butt ugly and naked!

~ much love ~

[Zynox]

So to answer your question, I believe it is individual effort and the radiance of joy which is the presence of one's soul in daily life that transforms a waiting world.

peace :harp:

Adam,

I love you brother, along with all posters here, but you have ~ NAILED ~ it.

And that emote animation, well, it warms me fierce~!

~ much love ~

[historycircus]

I believe it is individual effort and the radiance of joy which is the presence of one's soul in daily life that transforms a waiting world.

Agreed. Those words are inspired by wisdom.

[historycircus]

~ how about, we take sovereign responsibility for ourselves, at every layer and level, then trust each other, and then, finally, quit trumping the opportunity and potential for anarchy ...

If it is all a well crafted lie, how much responsibility to we really bear? Some to be sure, but all? Are the monkeys at the zoo responsible for their captivity? Excercising sovereign responsibility in an autonomous, altruistic way in this day and age gets one scrutinized and persecuted in completely immoral ways.

If it is all about free will - emphasized by the "whistleblowers" and gurus alike - why are we, as a species, being pushed to excercise a free will now, after centuries of suppression and manipulation designed to inhibit and outright crush it? Its like asking a three year old to solve complex algebraic equations, and when he can't, chastizing him for his immaturity and lack of intelligence.

[Rocky_Shorz]

If I understand it right, October 31st is the end of the Hedge Fund year, most will dump poor performing stocks to show a strong cash balance for the new year...

What does that mean when all the stocks have been poor performers? Are we looking at a massive sell off before close on Thursday?

[historycircus]

The closing bell has come and gone - I think the market actually ended up today. The market will probably decline steadily for the next 12-24 months, unemployment will creep toward 10%, and we will continue to export our "slightly higher than minimum wage" manufacturing jobs - but I just don't think the system will be purposely crashed. It is not in the best interest of the PTB.

I listened to NPR today on my way home, and one of the first spots on "All Things Considered" was a bit on the credit default swaps. Our economic system can be frightening when the light gets shined on it.

[Rocky_Shorz]

unless our Irish friend is right about a disaster coming this Sunday, I think we are going to make it through this night of the Mayan Calendar that ends Nov 7th...

Barclay's won't accept European Money, are they holding back the Illuminati or do they own this bank hoping to pull money in from other sources?

[historycircus]

I think that we will see an incredible surge in the stock market this week, especially after Obama "wins" the election.

Here is the good news. The stock market, despite what a lot of you folks believe, is still subject to the whims of thousands still willing to make market decisions for their own best interests - not do what they are told to do. Obama's victory, hyped as the presidency of change, will inspire those who can make their own decisions to be calm, keep their money in certain U.S. industries (yes, we still have some), and wait till January to do anything of any significance.

Here is another bit of silver lining to the coming months. If you have the money, buy property. Be smart about it. Don't sign a lease for space at the local failed strip mall. Buy property. No matter how miniscule the gain, it will be a gain nonetheless. Afraid that the bank is going to default on your twenty grand in savings, and that FDIC - although mandated - will fail at the exact moment you need it to work? Got a savings invested in useless 401ks? Buy a hunk of ground - put your money in hard land. Gold mongers will tell you different, and you can bet, they will have all kinds of advice on how to get into the precious metals market. Anywho, if you are looking for something to put your dollars in before dollars become worthless, and will hold its value (or considering the current real estate situation, only increase in value) for years to come, go buy land. You can either A: resell it at a profit in ten years, B: resell it and break even in a few years, C: live off it for now, sell it later for a profit, or D: keep it forever, live off it, and love it - passing it on to the next generation and learning where you come from in the process.

Buy land, not gold.

Just a thought. I'm willing to listen to reasons for why I am wrong, as long as those reasons are researched and knowledgeable.

What do you think?

[dreamangel]

If we face a future where it is up to us to create a new economic system, could we return to the use of the market, or are we better off finding another way? Perhaps a return to principles of exchange? Should we consider some sort of socialism - despite the failures observed in the old USSR?

Maybe you can go live there for a while and come back and tell us how good it is. That way we will know for sure and eveyone will just give up and say "OK". :lmao:

[historycircus]

Dreamangel,

Explain? What are you saying with your post? Is it wrong for me to question the fundamental mechanisms of Capitalism, considering that last few weeks of experience in the Western economy? Is it wrong for me to ask questions that might lead to a better way of life for us all? I did not endorse socialism, I was merely asking everyone to consider ways that would work better than what we have now. Maybe Capitalism IS the most fair way, given our nature as a species (war, crime, etc.). Maybe we could revive once lost forms of the exchange economy (credit without interest, etc.). Maybe the markets are the best way. I don't know. I was hoping for constructive stuff here, not just "go move to Russia if don't like it."

Anyone else?

[dreamangel]

historycircus,

I have no problem when you question it. I am just saying, try it on for size before you expect everyone else to just give into something they don't believe in. You are as free as anyone to go test it out and see how you like it. I have been in other countries. There is no way I would want to live like they do. If you are that curious, go check it out first.

[historycircus]

China is really the only country that pretends to use socialism anymore (even though they are only a capitalist dictatorship). Where have you been that uses socialism?

[dreamangel]

I have been to several countries that may not call it socializm, but it is embeded. China is a Communist country, it doesn't have to be a communist country to have socializm. Greece for one. Most of the major transportation there is government run, among other things. Since these people won't get fired want to take a day off, they just shut it down and you are stuck where ever you are if you don't have your own tansportation. I guess that would be ok here, I can see people just sitting and waiting until someone decides they want to come to work.

[historycircus]

Is not the formal definition of "Communism" = authoritarian socialism?

Greece is not socialist (beyond what it takes to participate with its EU bretheren), nor Communist (despite Mr. Papoulias's behavior).

If the people, the ones who should rule, decided to not show up to work as an act of negotiation for their rights as humans, then I say good. Unfortunately, if you read the reports, the Grecian strike meant nothing. They still work for next to free.

I get the sense that you believe in neoconservative economic philosophy. Your beliefs are about to undergo the ultimate test.

[kem]

Is not the formal definition of "Communism" = authoritarian socialism?


I think you should know there are big differences between these two terms...
First of all, according to Marx, communism isn't authoritarian. This is the way we tried to embbed it that is authoritarian. And this is the reason why this system has never worked. Today it's time to say Liberalism doesn't work as well.
So let's try something else... (Alas! I don't know what exactly)

[dreamangel]

I get the sense that you believe in neoconservative economic philosophy. Your beliefs are about to undergo the ultimate test.


That remains to be seen. Obama is a phony. We know less about him than anyone. From what I have seen from him is less impressive than watching water boil. Joe Biden is a drunken joke and an idiot to boot.

Yes, I am voting for McCain, who I am not fond of by any stretch, but those are our choices. My father faught in 2 wars for me to have my own opinion and the freedom to express it.

[historycircus]

Dreamangel,

Do not mistake what I am about to write as an intended insult to your father's military career, but most wars fought in the 20th century, and all the wars fought so far this century, are not about your freedom to do anything.

Korea and Vietnam were about making sure Japan's industrial complex would have markets in which to dump their goods, not about American freedom. Bosnia was about preserving new emerging markets in eastern Europe, and the freedom of ethnic Albanians. The first gulf war was about doing what the Saudis told us to do so that the oil spigot remained in the "on" (and more importantly, "cheap") position. Afghanistan was about securing oil pipelines being built to connect the oil fields of Tajikistan and Uzbekistan to the Arabian Sea (and the real reason pressure is being applied to Pakistan), and Iraq II was about nothing but oil. These wars are not about your freedom, they are about making profits for the companies who pay for the campaigns of our politicians.

The above stated reasons are why I distrust Capitalism so much, yea, the reason why I am at a philosophical point in my own life journey where I am prepared to reject it alltogether. How many civilian populations have to be bombed into hamburger so that we can continue to drive cheap cars on cheap gas to go to the local mall and buy imported clothing manufactured by poor children?

I refuse to accept that that is the definition of freedom we have to live by. As a true patriot, I refuse to accept what our country has become.

[historycircus]

Well, Bam-Bam has pulled it off. He defied centuries of racism, inspired large numbers of apathetic young people to participate in the political system, and defeated a tough opponent - John McCain really did represent the better elements of the Republican party. Obama did it while distancing himself from the loonier elements of his own party (i.e., Reid and Pelosi), and for the most part, without a great deal of help from the most popular former democratic president still alive.

Despite what many readers here, and folks across the conspiracy research spectrum have argued or blindly believe, Obama is not a Mason. At the very time in people's lives where they drift toward secret societies like the Masons, Obama was exploring his own disdain for the culture he saw around him, and cavorted with radicals expounding the need to fundamentally change everything in America - our culture, our economy, our spirits. Obama was smoking pot and being an angry black youth while George Bush was defending Texas from the Vietnamese on orders of his daddy. There is a POSSIBLE Masonic connection via his wife, but Obama himself is not a Mason. He may be an unknowing puppet, but not consciously a tool of the power structure he just won an election campaigning against - he believes himself to be his own man. I tend to agree with him.

And therein lies the rub. My biggest fear about Obama is not this "anti-Christ" silliness making the rounds, his supposed connections with Islam or Masonry, or the "secret socialist" charge that flies out of the mouths of windy conservative pundits like Limbaugh or Savage; rather, I fear that Obama is truly a break with the program - the "Matrix" so many here discuss - and as such, will be taken from us via assassination, by desperate corporate/PTB interests, some right wing nut job wishing to kill him for their religious fantasies, or some sheet wearing skin-head from the "Kill the Darkies" militia.

If you think about the numeric and symbolic elements of the PTB rituals, the danger to Obama becomes all the more important. The similarities to JFK are eerie. Obama is the first sitting Senator to be elected to the presidency since JFK. "Hope" and "change" were the central themes of both campaigns. Exactly 48 years seperates their elections (perhaps the eXchanger could explain that one). The moment Obama comes out and gives a press conference that asks the media and the American people to aid him in bringing more transparency to the system, watch out - they killed Kennedy a few weeks after he did the same. A similar fate for Obama would reenact the blood sacrifice made in 1963. If the number 48 truly has meaning, Obama might want to beef up his security in 2011 (the year he will be holding campaign rallies out in the open).

Now, with all that said, my other fear is that Obama will concentrate his energies on "fixing" the "broken" mechanisms of modern Capitalism (which are not really broken - this is how Capitalism operates), instead of breaking old paradigms and trying something new. Now that the federal government is in the banking business, he has an opportunity to experiment. Targeted, interest-free lending for the lower end of the income spectrum? Finally federalizing the "federal" reserve? Forcing corporations to recognize that the status that they have enjoyed since the American Civil War also comes with the obligations of citizenship? And that the inequality inherent in the Capitalist system is the very thing that allows for corporate profits, which makes it their duty to aid in the relief of the very poverty their profits are dependent upon? Or, will the morally bankrupt stock traders, investment bankers, and corporate figureheads be the only beneficiaries of his economic policies? I certainly "hope" not.

How do you all feel about Bam-Bam, as his presidency relates to our economic system? Will we see fundamental change? Or will it be business as usual?

[Rocky_Shorz]

Japan and Hong Kong are down 1000...

somebody better shut down the short sales quick or we're going to have a record drop today...

[Practitioner]

Hire me to build a building, and I shall build one. Pay me to tear it down. I shall do so. And I shall grow wealthier despite nothing else having been accomplished.

Whether there is capitalism or some form of regulated capitalism, it seems to me that there ought to be an element of conscience, of reasonable purpose for the investment of capital. It is human selfishness and immorality that leads to economic crises. However, one could also argue that human selfishness and immorality are the pre-existing conditions of either economic model.

If new wealth is to be created without seizing upon new natural resources, then it can be accomplished by improving the efficient management of existing resources. Thus, knowledge and experience--intellectual capital--would be the new catalyst for wealth, although this might be more likely to lead to a redistribution of wealth within the system, rather that the wealth of the system itself expanding.

[voltron]

New World Order Plans for the World Economy
http://www.cosmicawareness.org November 2008 Issue
There will eventually be five social/economic/political regions. The European Union has already been formed. The North American Union is the next. It is due by 2010. Then there will be the South American, the Asian, and then the Austro/Asian regions. Australia would fit into the Asian community. There is also seen a region around Africa/the Middle East, in that region. Eventually these five regions will fall under the One World Government, The New World Order as proposed by the elite cabal, those who are in charge. They have already divided up the world. They have already planned its future. Events such as the collapse of the American economy is designed towards creating a situation that will eventually lead to the proposal of a union of the three nations in North America, for it is seen that the Canadian economy and the Mexican economy will also be affected by the collapse, but not to the same degree, and the bailout will eventually be require being bailed out through the unification of the three nations, the proposal stating that the three together will be stronger and more stable once again than three who are separately struggling to endure the storms that are raging at the moment.

[historycircus]

Japan and Hong Kong are down 1000...

somebody better shut down the short sales quick or we're going to have a record drop today...

Looks like you were right Rocky - the worst consecutive two day drop in almost thirty years . . .

[historycircus]

Hire me to build a building, and I shall build one. Pay me to tear it down. I shall do so. And I shall grow wealthier despite nothing else having been accomplished.

Whether there is capitalism or some form of regulated capitalism, it seems to me that there ought to be an element of conscience, of reasonable purpose for the investment of capital. It is human selfishness and immorality that leads to economic crises. However, one could also argue that human selfishness and immorality are the pre-existing conditions of either economic model.

If new wealth is to be created without seizing upon new natural resources, then it can be accomplished by improving the efficient management of existing resources. Thus, knowledge and experience--intellectual capital--would be the new catalyst for wealth, although this might be more likely to lead to a redistribution of wealth within the system, rather that the wealth of the system itself expanding.

Welcome Practicioner,

You are indeed right, and your words highlight my own inner confliction over Capitalism. On paper and in theory, Capitalism can be an efficient way for us to engage in economic activity. But, given human nature, it becomes a form of enslavement. I really like what you said about intellectual capital. I don't know if you read any theoretical anthropology, but there is this concept of the "thought economy" that is directly related to what you wrote. It harkens back to pre-Capitalist modes of production and exchange - a world in which value was dependent upon the relationships that produced and moved goods, not materialism or function/use.

I would argue that the primacy of "intellectual capital" would not only redistribute wealth (thus combatting the inherent inequality upon which the Capitalist system is dependent), but might actually serve to REDEFINE the very meaning of wealth. How we make this transition in a world where intellectual creativity and development is mistrusted and actually attacked as elitism, however, is beyond me.

Again, welcome Practicioner, and come back soon.

[historycircus]

I think you should know there are big differences between these two terms...
First of all, according to Marx, communism isn't authoritarian. This is the way we tried to embbed it that is authoritarian. And this is the reason why this system has never worked. Today it's time to say Liberalism doesn't work as well.
So let's try something else... (Alas! I don't know what exactly)

Welcome to the thread Kem (I almost forgot about your post, so I apologize for not responding):sorry:,

Communism as has been practiced, has been authoritarian, but you are correct; Marx's vision of a Communist world (what little he offered) would ideally not be authoritarian. Thanks for keeping me honest . . .

Liberalism too, has failed us. Although I tend to think we are on verge of something new - a movement perhaps - that leaves the hollowness of liberalism behind, while creating something new out of liberalism's emphasis on humanitarianism. That is my hope anyway.

Thanks for posting, and please, come back. My goal for this thread was to discuss the future of our economic behavior no matter what happens to us as a species, and I welcome anything you can offer.

[Knightbk]

We are all going to die, so why do you guys care?

[Rocky_Shorz]

This isn't the end, it's only the beginning...

[historycircus]

New World Order Plans for the World Economy
http://www.cosmicawareness.org November 2008 Issue
There will eventually be five social/economic/political regions. The European Union has already been formed. The North American Union is the next. It is due by 2010. Then there will be the South American, the Asian, and then the Austro/Asian regions. Australia would fit into the Asian community. There is also seen a region around Africa/the Middle East, in that region. Eventually these five regions will fall under the One World Government, The New World Order as proposed by the elite cabal, those who are in charge. They have already divided up the world. They have already planned its future. Events such as the collapse of the American economy is designed towards creating a situation that will eventually lead to the proposal of a union of the three nations in North America, for it is seen that the Canadian economy and the Mexican economy will also be affected by the collapse, but not to the same degree, and the bailout will eventually be require being bailed out through the unification of the three nations, the proposal stating that the three together will be stronger and more stable once again than three who are separately struggling to endure the storms that are raging at the moment.

Greetings Voltron,

I found your info interesting, but I'm not sure I totally buy it all.

As I have said for a while, our economic system is ALREADY the perfect cage - most people in the United States and the western world honestly believe that the system as-is is the epitome of freedom, but the truth is that very few economic decisions we make on a daily basis are truly free decisions. From paying bills to buying a pack of gum, our free-will only gets limited exercise. I try to put myself in the PTB shoes - this gobal economic downturn is causing people who would normally not think about such things to pay closer attention to their political leaders, corporate activity, etc. For a group that depends on their ability to operate out of the shadows, their cover is shrinking in the light of scrutiny. I see the current econoic problem as a window of opportunity - but the window can only stay open so long.

[historycircus]

I have been reading some of the economic threads, and have a quick thought to share.

The majority here on Avalon believe that the current global economic crisis is engineered. It has been thrown together by the NWO/Illuminati/PTB groups as a way to consolidate power and achieve a reduction in global population, etc. If this this is the interpretation that is true, then we are all doomed, right? We are watching it happen right before our eyes, and there is nothing that we can do except buy our "I love the NWO" t-shirts now and select where we want our chip, or prepare to die horribly - in a concentration camp, or on the streets. If they can engineer something like that, and keep the artificiality of the whole thing a secret from us, then their power is unlimited, and there is absolutely nothing we can do.

Now there is a small minority here on Avalon, myself included, who sees the current global collapse as not engineered - a goof made by the lazy, distracted shepards of our age - but a mistake nonetheless. It represents a crisis in leadership in whatever PTB organization one chooses to believe in. The system as is/was, was one where we drove the Pinto, aspired to drive the Lexus, quietly worked like dogs to get that Lexus, and shrugged with indifference whenever a "third-world" nation got bombed to keep the system alive. It bred docility and allegience. But it is falling apart, and people are taking notice, getting angry, and pushing for something different. I think the PTB are fighting to maintain the control they have, not seeking to consolidate.

In any event, if the latter of the two scenarios above is true, it represents a small window of opportunity to change the entire system. While life might be unpleasant in a "depression" economy, perhaps it will foster a dramatic shift in how we use resources, and treat each other as human beings.

[Orion Morris]

In any event, if the latter of the two scenarios above is true, it represents a small window of opportunity to change the entire system. While life might be unpleasant in a "depression" economy, perhaps it will foster a dramatic shift in how we use resources, and treat each other as human beings.

WORD :original: I feel like it is probably enginered but either way you are right historycircus.:thumb_yello:

[historycircus]

We are all going to die, so why do you guys care?

Explain. Our species dies - it is what we do. That doesn't mean we shouldn't strive to leave the best world we can for those who come after.

I'm just not sure what you are getting at.

[historycircus]

Today I listened to G.W. Bush, our president defect, speak about how "economic growth" should be the goal, how "free markets" and "free people" were key to fostering that growth, and how people shouldn't question the "principles of the Capitalist system." It was an NPR piece that mentioned that the G-20, or whatever bllsht the PTP want to call wrangling the top seven brink-of-the-industrial-plateau nations and hangers on. Anyway, it sounds to me like he is still full of garbage. He is truly a clueless maniac - even the PTB see it.

Do they think we are fools? "Growth," for instance, is a loaded concept. There was a time in our histories in which the concept of economic "growth" defied natural law. Exchange, feudalism, Mercantilism - all systems were connected enough to the natural cycles of the planet (barring feudalism's and Mercantilism's aspirations to the contrary) to know that growth, of populations and riches, for the express goal of expansion in and of itself, was impossible. eXchangers were happy to eXist - they recognized their condition as a gift from higher powers, and while not above the emotional whims that take men to war and move them to peace, their eXistance was recognized as balance. Feudals were slaves who enjoyed moments of freedom, but recognized their own slavery as a condition of balance at the time. Mercantilists were war hawks that believed that whatever tactics increased their own piece of the limited pie were justified, but they did believe pie size (i.e., global resources) limited - expansion was impossible. Lucky for them Christobal de Colombo (or Colon) made that argument moot. The pie suddenly got way bigger than they could concieve. Thus, the European settlers of the Americas murdered and raped their way acrossssssssss the landscape, believing that "growth" was now a natural principle. It is no surprise that Adam Smith could make his argument so well in a day and age when maps of the entire globe remained undrawn (at least to the mainstream). Colonialism had allowed economists to disregard Mercantilist theory as "archaic," and the earlier exchange economy was virtually unknown by them - and given their feeling of superiority over the past, they would have dismissed it anyway. Colonialism gave birth to the economics of "growth," which is the fundamental building block of Capitalist theory.

But now we have the maps. Even with the addition of planets that can be mined for their resources, we know that our society as is cannot grow and maintain the balance necessary to ensure the continuation of the species.

Is there something redeeming in the Capitalist system that I have missed? Can we move forward as a species adhering to the market system? I do not think we can. We must figure out how to get along on this mud-ball with finite resources. I think that is where we are going - headed toward making such decisions, not as ethnicities or nations, but as a species.

For the die hard Capitalists, let me ask this: what happens when someone wins? If Capitalism is dependent upon competition, what happens if someone wins? Do you know who controls 80% of the textbook trade in the United States? Google it, make the connections, and you will be horrified who the CEO turns out to be. Eventually, someone wins the race, and unless there is a system in place to make sure the winner gives up his crown for the next race, we are in trouble. I think our economic system in the United States is about to undergo the same trials that our political system once did.

[gwynned]

Today I listened to G.W. Bush, our president defect, speak about how "economic growth" should be the goal, how "free markets" and "free people" were key to fostering that growth, and how people shouldn't question the "principles of the Capitalist system."

Whenever someone tries to reassure me about something is when I really start worrying!

Is Obama being set up to be the next FDR, whose task is to save capitalism?

[historycircus]

If you like what you read here, I recommend you read this other thread. I just contributed to it, and Heretic is asking us worthwhile questions to consider:

http://www.projectavalon.net/forum/showthread.php?p=80142&posted=1#post80142

[historycircus]

I think Obama, like a lot of others, believes in Capitalism, and yeah, he is probably going to waste a great many of those first days in office trying to fix it. I know he supports a GM bailout, but that is because he needs Union support - what's another TWENTY FIVE BILLION DOLLARS, huh?

[Mr X]

I got a good scenario for those in the US, like me....The government takes MY tax money, GIVES it to the bank, then the bank DENIES me from borrowing it back with interest. How the &%^#@ does that equate? I'm tired of the government handing out my money and then not letting me have it back.

I don't know how much longer the sheeple can take this madness.

[historycircus]

I got a good scenario for those in the US, like me....The government takes MY tax money, GIVES it to the bank, then the bank DENIES me from borrowing it back with interest. How the &%^#@ does that equate? I'm tired of the government handing out my money and then not letting me have it back.

I don't know how much longer the sheeple can take this madness.

Welcome Mr. X,

Your frustration is being amplified throughout the western world, and I understand completely. The banks who are guilty of criminal behavior are going to get their bailout, despite their bad behavior. The auto industry will get their bailout, despite their own failure to recognize that four dollar a gallon gasoline might make buying that new SUV an unattractive prospect for potential new car buyers, and their lobbying fight in D.C. to prevent better fuel efficiency laws. Credit Card companies now have their hands out, and did you hear Master Card will soon become an investment bank?

But the people who took out bad mortages, racked up credit card debt, and will lose their jobs will get nothing. They are the one who will be expected to suck it up and show some "personal responsibility," while Wall Street - the ones who promoted such bad behavior - will be cashing their welfare checks from the government.

I am so angry just thinking about it, I'm cutting my post short.

Peace

[historycircus]

Capitalism, FOX, and Reality TV

The FOX information control and manipulation corporation has an "entertainment" arm that has given us such wonderful treasures as "American Idol," "Paradise Island," and who could forget the television masterpiece, "Hole in the Wall"? In this tradition of excellence, they are about to debut their new endeavor, "The Secret Millionaire." The premise of the show is relatively simple: A millionaire lives and works amongst the working class for a week, and then picks the person most "deserving" (this is the actual word FOX is using in the previews) to get a monetary prize from said millionaire when he reveals his true identity. How noble of FOX! How philanthropic! What a wonderful thing to do for hard working poor people - give them money as a reward for the outward expression of morality and camaraderie! Can FOX save the world?

By now, dear reader, you may have detected the slight hint of sarcasm, which is odd, because the sarcasm should jump out and slap you around a little. How could such a seemingly innocent act of goodness be interpreted as anything but benevolent? As humanitarian?

The psychology upon which the show is based is a damaged one - it reinforces debased cultural norms as just that: normal. It is perfectly acceptable in our society to wear down the body and let the intellect stagnate for the procurement of meager amounts of capital that essentially only allows for the person to exist - to barely "make ends meet." We wil probably be introduced to characters that have attempted to alleviate such economic pressures with credit cards and debt economics. The "Average American" will be a hard working, barely surviving, debt saddled individual, but with a "heart of gold." The ugliness of it all, however, will be obscurred by the prospect of someone "good" being rewarded with a one way ticket out of American economic hell. We'll be distracted from the big picture as if we were marks in a televised game of three-card-monty.

Then, it will be reinforced, that it is only natural for the poor to want more. Who wouldn't? Beans and weenies versus lobster, right? Economic aspiration - the accumulation of wealth - is the good capitalist way, right? Forget that class is the primary (but not only) social division between Americans today. As a culture we have made great strides in defeating the negative "-isms" of our past: racism (or more accurately, ethnic differences), sexism, religious differences of all stripes. But class remains the dominant organizational paradigm for our society. Thus, what makes "Secret Millionaire" so novel is that a millionaire would mix with the working class so, but never forget, at the end of the show, the millionaire will "rescue" his new found buddies from their harsh economic circumstances. That someone would need "rescuing" from one of the fundamental laws of our economic system (wealth will accumulate in only a small percentage of the system) should make Americans angry, but alas, they will only clap.

Then there is the issue of morality. Most religions and spiritual systems equate morality with sacrifice. Being moral is often not easy, nor profitable. It is telling that this show will reward it with money, the ultimate tool of corruption. If you're good, you get paid. Miracles will happen for those who are unsatisfied with their lot, so long as they keep feeding the system that exploits their desperation and desires. My fear is that America will say: "awe, that was nice," and then get up at 5:30 the next morning, trudge to their 10 hours of lever pulling down at the cannery, all the while dreaming that the person who moves into that foreclosed home next door pulls up in a moving van that says FOX on the side.

If we are to survive as a nation, but more importantly, as a species, we will need to transform our world into one that sees philanthropy as a failure of the very system itself. Philanthropy such as this is like Morphine, it makes you feel good, but only masks the pain - making one either not feel, or not care, about the real problem. And to televise it is sheer psychological vulgarity, and is proof that there really was not a philanthropic spirit in the development of this show in the first place.

Shame on FOX. Again.

[Kly]

If the grocery stores close and the system goes down.. are you kidding?

Besides there is good reason to believe this is planned chaos so we will be shooting and robbing in the streets so marshal law can be enforced.

Have you talked to people about this? I have and many of them say they are willing to shoot any person approaching their home for fear of theft. And that is exactly what will happen.

A friend of mine told me last year that he personally knows someone who was with Bush 1 on airforce 1 during his last campaign and he told my friend that there will be blood flowing in the streets of America by 2009.

You will have to take my word on that last statement as I can not give you names.

These are serious times we are facing and the biggest problem is that it is not a level playing field, there are those forces that desire this to happen. This is planned so it could be Mad Max time.


:lightsabre:


A hungry man
with a gun in his hand
will not ask where your head's at
or where you stand...

[historycircus]

If the grocery stores close and the system goes down.. are you kidding?

Besides there is good reason to believe this is planned chaos so we will be shooting and robbing in the streets so marshal law can be enforced.

Have you talked to people about this? I have and many of them say they are willing to shoot any person approaching their home for fear of theft. And that is exactly what will happen.

A friend of mine told me last year that he personally knows someone who was with Bush 1 on airforce 1 during his last campaign and he told my friend that there will be blood flowing in the streets of America by 2009.

You will have to take my word on that last statement as I can not give you names.

These are serious times we are facing and the biggest problem is that it is not a level playing field, there are those forces that desire this to happen. This is planned so it could be Mad Max time.


:lightsabre:


A hungry man
with a gun in his hand
will not ask where your head's at
or where you stand...

Hi K, and welcome to the thread:welcomeani:,

There are several good reasons to "believe" a scenario like that, but I want something more tangible than "belief;" real, definite proof for the engineered economic and social collapse, all for the sake of martial law, does not make sense from a rational point of view. The government could do all that nasty stuff relatively unopposed right this very minute - a few militia groups here and there would emerge, but they would be easily crushed. Why wait for rioting, and when people are mad - take them by surprise! Right now! But they haven't, and given the control they already have over us, I don't see them rocking the boat - they are trying to fix the system as is BECAUSE it is ultimate control, not trying to crash it for more.

[historycircus]

"Brother, can you spare $34 billion?"

If the current meetings between the U.S. auto industry and Congress are not indicative of economic manipulation, I don't know what is. The "outrage" the media was prodding us to feel a mere two weeks ago is transforming into "sympathy" as we watch it all, and do nothing. As if driving a hybrid to the meeting was anything more than an inconvenience. Make no mistake, they will get their money - Congress gave in thrice to corporate demands over the last two months (AIG, Freddie and Fannie, and the bailout), and will give in again. Forget that pyramid at the top for the moment, and think about those layers close to it. I'm guessing that is where the U.S. Congress ranks, and make no mistake, most want a promotion - especially this close to the "end" (however you want to define it is fine by me). Anyway, Congress will do what they are told, and the auto pageant will be complete. Orchestration at its finest. And shame on all those who don't publicly act against it.

And its all right out there for everyone to see.:shocked::shocked::shocked::shocked: