The Search for Truth - Amnesty or Vengeance?

[Kerry Cassidy]

We received this important email from Dr. Richard Sauder today. I am not inviting debate here, just wanted you to be aware there's a different way of looking at things.

This is only the beginning of what will begin to take place once the truth of the years of hidden government secrecy finally OUTS... People will be called to testify as to their roles. Part of the reason Project Camelot has been allowed to exist is that these people who worked in black projects to feed their ambition and their families.. and who felt they were doing the right thing, will eventually realize the extent of their wrong choices. Whether "the people" are able to forgive them, and limit vengeance will be partially due to projects like ours that began to reveal the truth to the people. Knowledge brings understanding. I would stand on the side of Amnesty for the people who hid while the world starved... Some may not be so generous.

Richard Sauder is speaking for the people and for disclosure. In my view, those who are still holding back the truth, even while parading themselves as whistle blowers need to realize that they are not free of responsibility to the greater whole. Indeed, theirs may be the final deceit.

Kerry Cassidy
Project Camelot/Project Avalon
'dare to speak'

***

Begin forwarded message:

From: Richard Sauder <dr_samizdat@yahoo.com>
Date: September 23, 2008 12:04:53 PM PDT
To: Kerry Cassidy <kerrylyncassidy@netzero.net>, Kerry Cassidy and Bill Ryan <support@projectcamelot.org>
Subject: Henry Deacon's and John Lear's departure from the Avalon forum
Reply-To: dr_samizdat@yahoo.com

Hi Kerry and Bill,

I read your post about the Avalon Forum and I understand and respect your position.

Having said that, here is the reality: 1) we have LARGE NUMBERS of missing people in this country. It is one of the most seriously unreported stories in the world. 2) We have TRILLIONS of missing dollars in our economy. It is one of the most unreported stories in the world. 3) We have hundreds, if not thousands, of clandestine, Top Secret, Black Operations by the CIA, NSA, NRO, DoD, DoE, DIA, ONI, USAF, US Navy, etc. 4) We have scores, if not hundreds, of highly secret, extremely classified underground and undersea bases. 5) A growing body of evidence indicates that there is probably a massive, secret space program, with a huge, clandestine armada in orbit around the Earth, and, it seems, maybe even secret bases on Mars and the Moon, and expeditions to other planets elsewhere in the Milky Way galaxy.

And then people such as John Lear and Henry Deacon, who have spent their career working in the Black World for these agencies, come on a forum such as Project Avalon, and when they are sharply questioned they object to having to directly answer to the hoi-poloi ? They made lots of money, which WE paid via extortionate taxation and corporate corruption, and they had long careers in the Black World which WE unknowingly funded through our own sweat and blood, and then they object to having to answer a few direct questions from the rest of us about what they did and what they know ?

Well, too bad !! They absolutely owe us the truth, the whole, unvarnished truth, and they owe it to us right now. It is our absolute right to directly question them, and their duty to directly answer us. Huge numbers of people are dead and missing, trillions of dollars have been stolen behind our backs, a secret space fleet is orbiting over our heads, we don't even know the scale of the ghastly horrors in the underground and undersea bases, and they think they are doing us a big "favor" if they give a brief interview or two, or deign to say a few sentences to us about what they have spent the last 50 years doing ?

I wasn't born yesterday, and neither were a whole lot of other people on the forum.

Michael St. Clair is another story entirely. He's very open and engages in dialog on a very wide range of topics. He has a whole different vibration.

As for the two troublemakers that showed up on Michael St. Clair's thread, they may have been Feds. You can't put up a public internet forum without the "alphabet soup" interfering with their "agents provocateurs". It's inevitable in this age of internet surveillance. I would add that your moderator and Susan, the "eXchanger" did a good job of handling them for Michael.

kind regards,
Richard Sauder

p.s. "Did you know you can boost your car's mileage with water!"
http://tinyurl.com/gas-buster
http://tinyurl.com/water-for-fuel

**********************************************

[stefaan]

Amnesty worked in South-Africa and other places like Rwanda(?)
If it helps a witness to come out and tell his truth. Why not?
But they should really tell everything, not withhold anything, to diserve amnesty.

Did vengeance ever do some good?

[Gale]

I would stand on the side of Amnesty for the people who hid while the world starved... Some may not be so generous.


Amnesty?
Amnesty only for those who have an honest change of heart and truly regret but an open ended Amnesty to blanket a whole section of wrong doing without regret, no.

[ArthurAvalon]

"And then people such as John Lear and Henry Deacon, who have spent their career working in the Black World for these agencies, come on a forum such as Project Avalon, and when they are sharply questioned they object to having to directly answer to the hoi-poloi ? They made lots of money, which WE paid via extortionate taxation and corporate corruption, and they had long careers in the Black World which WE unknowingly funded through our own sweat and blood, and then they object to having to answer a few direct questions from the rest of us about what they did and what they know ?" Richard Sauder
Sorry. John Lear and Henry Deacon? Please leave them alone. Mr. John Lear and people like him are our heros and warriors. We completely protest the above statement. Somebody so amateur to this arena would say such outrageous things as above...
Please understand the intricacy and tight security and censorship issues involved for disclosures.. This kind of slanderous and character assassinating statements make it harder for general whistle blowers, however great they may be.
Aurion Mission.-Arthur Avalon.
P.s: We at AM are not feds or any other sort of insiders.. We and mainly the person(captain) behind it is an outsider 100%. Neither Alien nor God... We all just want to know everything and want others to know everything.. So we need help at AM if U also wanna know all.. But we do not argue or communicate with those who oppose people like John Lear, Richard Hoagland etc..
YOU REALLY WANNA KNOW THE TRUTH? O.K...
Read the Lion Path books and all other books of a scientist and a medium..So far according to AM The Most Genius and an almost Demi-God?
MUSAIOS Dr. Charles Musès (Musaios)
One of the top notch ground breaking scientist and a priest of the highest order as we believe at AM.
Lets tread the LION’S PATH and our GOD IS THE SUN GOD and lets get to the SUN.
SIRIUS and ORION and beyond..
We can break all time gates in multiverses..
So please lets not play with this separatism, nepotism, us vs them…
and let us all stay together to reach a critical mass..
Lets do it… Not alone but together..
UNITED WE STAND DIVIDED WE FALL..
aint’ it true?
AM..
AA-Arthur Avalon..
P.s: Mission captain had the author name Arthur Avalon before starting AM and now its Aurion for Aurion Mission…

[Baggywrinkle]

Amnesty.

Being stripped of their power will be punishment enough.

[ArthurAvalon]

Reply to BaggyWrinkle from Arthur Avalon-Aurion Mission.
"Being stripped of their power will be punishment enough"
The World Governments, Military, MIB, NASA and "all" space agencies and academies, all defense departments, all the liars in this field.. in WWW - .stripped of their power will be punishment enough indeed.. For lay scientists and officials(insiders) its a taboo as they are being mind controlled with a powder in their ether/air/work space and EM pulses and waves to control us all and push us all into taboo, tamas and a numb phenomenon etc..
which had and might always prevent us from delving into missing screw phenomenon or missing link phenomenon but leave us all in despair with the numbness phenomenon..
Thats what we are left with..
So we need revolution/s-- movements to curb these evil forces ruling and controlling us once and for all..
AM.
Yes. Bravo..
AM/AA.

[lohiaaditya]

I didnt know that Mr.John Lear had worked in Black Projects? Can anyone confirm it? I doubt he has from what I know him. He is just a man who has immense knowledge and does great research. He had a couple of incidents here and there with UFO's but nothing more than that. He worked in the military if I m right. So I think to say that he has worked in Black Projects would be unfair on him, I also know that he openly talks about things and explains them in great detail, his views on another forum. To say something to such a person is the worst thing anyone can do. From what I get, he is a great and an honest man. Please correct me if I m wrong.

[spaceman44]

well said Kerry, I and many other agree entirely.

[Baggywrinkle]

I didnt know that Mr.John Lear had worked in Black Projects? Can anyone confirm it? I doubt he has from what I know him.

John's dad had most of the contacts. Some of it rubbed off by association, I'm sure.

It is also known that John Lear flew for Air America which
was a CIA asset.

He does indeed know people and is much more than your
garden variety armchair researcher.

[lohiaaditya]

John's dad had most of the contacts. Some of it rubbed off by association, I'm sure.

It is also known that John Lear flew for Air America which
was a CIA asset.

He does indeed know people and is much more than your
garden variety armchair researcher.

Ok. I get the point that he has contacts, but that would not mean that he has 'worked' in Black Projects as implied by Mr. Sauder. To work in a black project and to know someone who has, I think are completely two different things. And nevertheless, I know another forum where he does answer everything that has been asked of him as long as its polite and dignified. He provides everything that he knows. Now you wouldnt expect a person to talk about private relationships etc but to my knowledge at the Open Minds Forum he does talk everything. So why is he not serving any purpose for that matter? He is answering questions, he is sharing his views.

He flew for Air America, but that does not mean he could know information that is sensitive, and nevertheless he has said a lot in his interviews.

[Baggywrinkle]

He flew for Air America, but that does not mean he could know information that is sensitive, and nevertheless he has said a lot in his interviews.

My brother, also a pilot, has met John. Said he's a nice fella.

It is anyone's guess if Mr Lear has actually held a clearance. It is my belief that his forte is being personable and easy to talk to. It is amazing what one
can learn over a beer on layover in Cairo...

Air America just places him in position for those friendly beers to occur...

[lohiaaditya]

Well, I still hold my judgment but I will bow out of this. But it was a healthy debate. I am probably not in a position to debate for his side, although I am convinced he is already doing a lot as a whistle blower. Check his Open Minds Forum section. Only after that would it be fair to criticize him.

[Racsouran]

Vengeance is pointless if they really "repent their sins" so to speak, and came out with a real good help.

[kayak]

This Forum follows the Law of Allowance, does it not?

If anyone decides to post information, following the minimal guidelines, and then, decides to leave the Forum, that is that person's prerogative.

Unless Richard Sauder wants to contact John Lear or "Henry Deacon" in private to determine why either of them has left the Avalon Forum, then he is "guilty" of imputing motives for such departures.

One who works in black projects has many "controls" to observe in communicating to the general public.
None of us in the general public arena knows what threats/risks such a "whistleblower" is facing, or what consequences may occur, should he/she not "toe the line."

Walk two miles in his moccasins before criticizing another brave. (Chief Blackhawk)

Personally, I will miss Henry Deacon's contributions, as I will John Lear's. Perhaps, when the "pressure" lets up, each will reappear on the Avalon's horizon of hope.

I am Kayak.

[NancyV]

I have gone back and forth in my mind about the "responsibility" issue regarding people who come forth to tell of their experiences, and at this point I don't think they are responsible to tell others everything... or even anything. If they do tell some of what they know, I am grateful. If they have reasons for not telling all they know, I cannot judge what those reasons are.

If I were John Lear or Henry Deacon I would probably have left this forum also after the rudeness that was displayed. Men who have been through these experiences don't need to be nipped at and barked at by people who think they have a "right to know" or presume to judge something they have no direct experience with. This is one of the reasons why more of these men don't tell all.

Many of these men begin their careers thinking they are serving the greater good. By the time they realize they aren't sure what the greater good IS they are often too deeply involved. If they decide to finally get out they are lucky to get out with their lives. They certainly don't need a bunch of rabid vengeance seekers, blamers and people who don't accept responsibility for their own ignorance blaming them for situations that have been a reality for many, many decades or centuries.

If you seek knowledge, don't bite the hand that helps you acquire it. They don't need you. You do need their knowledge, or at least you seem to profess that you desire knowledge. Maybe there is a good reason not to tell the average person all the bizarre manipulations and lies they have been fed their entire lives.

We are each on our own path, alone, learning at our own pace. We are very lucky if we can cooperate with some people some of the time, but no one really OWES us anything.

Nancy

[clarkkent]

vengeance is bad. eye for an eye makes you blind yeah?

for me i think sauder has points to be sure, but none of the whistleblowers are in a court of law here, and anyone with a ounce of knowledge about human psychology can tell you that demanding and bullying people online to disclose info will only drive them away.

henry deacon is in bad shape i gather physically, so to badger an ill person who doesnt have to say a word, i think is pointless. if anything he wont divulge anything out of frustration at being told its owed to us.

again if this was court and legal proceedings were taking place sauder would be correct, these people owe society the truth, no matter what.

but again this is a forum and were quite lucky anyone goes out on a limb to tell us what 99% of our species is unaware of. getting on a high horse will only do a disservice to people who want more answers here.

-k

[Richard T]

Perhaps a difference should be considered between vengeance and neutralization.

Nazi Germany was defeated but Nazi ideology was not neutralized.

And today, because those people who had ties with the movement, and who had ties with the economy of the elite, fascism is back on the forefront of the scene.

Nazi scientists were recuperated, Nazi supporters were given power, and that ugly mentality was allowed to go underground and prepare its next assault.

The fear of losing is extremely powerful. And it sways decision in favor of those whose mentality is to dominate. It seems that the only way the head of this ugly beast can be had is through the total loss of what is feared of being lost.

I am not talking vengeance but am talking check mate.

[lawlessline]

Peace is the only thing that would ever last

[Norval]

We received this important email from Dr. Richard Sauder today. I am not inviting debate here, just wanted you to be aware there's a different way of looking at things.

This is only the beginning of what will begin to take place once the truth of the years of hidden government secrecy finally OUTS... People will be called to testify as to their roles. Part of the reason Project Camelot has been allowed to exist is that these people who worked in black projects to feed their ambition and their families.. and who felt they were doing the right thing, will eventually realize the extent of their wrong choices. Whether "the people" are able to forgive them, and limit vengeance will be partially due to projects like ours that began to reveal the truth to the people. Knowledge brings understanding. I would stand on the side of Amnesty for the people who hid while the world starved... Some may not be so generous.

Richard Sauder is speaking for the people and for disclosure. In my view, those who are still holding back the truth, even while parading themselves as whistle blowers need to realize that they are not free of responsibility to the greater whole. Indeed, theirs may be the final deceit.

Kerry Cassidy
Project Camelot/Project Avalon
'dare to speak'

***
***

When it comes to the "alphabet soup" agents in forums, they do have their "agendas" just
as the Bad ET's do that post in these forums. Amnesty for those that have a change of
"heart" is good. Those that are just trying for a "lighter sentence of guilt" I am sure will be
dealt with by the "powers that be" when that happens. I doubt it will be by an earthly
government though. :thumb_yello:

[omshanti2]

I second that Norval.

[franzBardon]

... i'm not sure what to make of this new development... tones seems to have changed. somethings not right... definitely need to utilize strong discernment with this one.

[Richard T]

It seems pretty obvious that people, when they truly realize the extent of a lie, demand answers. When people are lied to, regardless of the level of the lie, whether it is in private life or in public, it is with the intend of manipulating to the one's own apparent benefit. withholding information is another form of lie which has for intent domination.

But if doubt is brought about certain people, doubt must exist in relation with everything they may have said.

Can anyone explain to me why disclosure would be allowed by way of whistle blowers? Why it would not be an orchestrated and controlled movement?

Of course, any disclosure has to be examined with the highest degree of discernment.

And if there is corroboration between parties, even then, those points onto which they agree must be examined with particular attention.

I feel that reality when it hits will be much grander and possibly quite different than the leads given.

[TAXMASTER]

i have personally known someone in black ops and they did not just turn into a bad doer of deeds overnight. they are led down a path and only told certain things about what they are doing and they do it because they are led to believe it is for the good of the country. after they have been on many missions with others, they tend to loosen up with each other socially (over a few beers in cairo perhaps) and disclose what they know to each other. by then they get so far in that many are afraid for their lives, the lives of their loved ones etc and believe they have no where to go but with the flow.

let us not judge one's past as we are all guilty of not doing the right thing. they deserve whatever privacy that they set for themselves. if it wasn't for them, we would not have the pieces of the puzzle that we have now.

Namaste'

[astropsyche]

To Dr Sauder - I can see your argument and have some sympathy with what you write. However - these folk with as yet undisclosed information on huge revelations will hardly feel able to release their info if there is a posse of angry citizens ready and willing to make them run the gauntlet. I think these black ops people have a great deal to reconcile within themselves in terms of the wrong/misguided decisions and actions they have undertaken. Although time is of the essence - to not offer amnesty, and aggressively persecute these people until they make the disclosures the world needs/wants to hear is surely as destructive to honest, full and accurate reports as waterboarding is to pursuing 'terrorists'? Go gently sir..there surely is time enough.

[Isa]

I am for amnesty also. I would hope that all are encouraged to speak up and out as much as possible. The more talking, the better! And as the info flies about, becoming more and more confusing and conflicting - whether lies or truth - the more we are pressed to rely on our own inner guidance and to develop our discernment skills. It is a wild dance, to be sure, and lively discussions about what is or isn't 'true' serves to launch the whole thing forward, but I see no benefit in vengeance.

[Shellie]

What is their internal motivation (guilt), and what it the external motivation (outside pressures)? I am sure a lot of these people can't even handle their own truth. Amnesty is punishment enough.

[Richard T]

The problem with a principle of amnesty is that it is a blanket concept.

[Jenny]

South Africa had this concept after Apartheid.

To come clean...no punishment.

Anyone knows what that was ?

[EYES WIDE OPEN]

Well done to Richard. I agree with you 100%.

However, you can bet that if I or any other "non-name" member posted anything like this, people get ****** off and acuse us of being an agent.

Peace is the only thing that would ever last - also correct. :)

love & light to all.

[EYES WIDE OPEN]

I just cant get my head around letting these people get away with what they have done & all the lives of innocents they have ruined.

[Richard T]

The head of the serpent is never cut-off.

Obviously, people who get involved at a certain level do it for a reason.
Then again, anyone does what he does for a reason.
And in a court of law, reason is not an excuse.

And I understand quite well that people are not ultimately responsible, not really knowing what they are doing. Why? They don't even really know who they are, where they are from and where they are going.

Still, they are capable of being used by the serpent. Somewhere along the lines they have been seduced.

And yes, once you are in the belly of the serpent, it is very hard to escape.

And because of this, I have no incentive to give them credit, because they are at the mercy of the serpent, therefore not trustworthy.

They did it for their country? Fine. I am interested by the human race. Countries are not eternal.

On the other hand, its easy for me to comment, not being caught nor having any influence on the occult plan that seeks to enslave humanity.

The head. It is the head that is of foremost importance.

It has been said that man would be judged by man, in the end.

[21sept]

Amnesty, whether we like it or not, IS the only way forward

[Norval]

Amnesty is possible, for some.

There is an "amnesty", that many are concerned about also, that most don't have a clue
about. As I have said the aliens are just like us, good and bad. Neighborly, or not so
neighborly. Yet there is one more type of people, be they ET, or mankind, and that is one
that has had a "change of heart". We call those BRET's, or Bad Reformed ET's. (RBET's
just doesn't ring.)

These "reformed" ET's were cast down to the earth by the "devil", or head honcho of the
bad ET's because of dissension in the ranks. Many are now on our side, so to speak, it is
amnesty for them that was a consideration by Gale and myself some years ago. We
agreed that as with the "judgment" of mankind, our hearts and what motivated us, is the
judging factor of forgiveness or not. Yes, amnesty for those of good heart and intentions.

[arcora]

What is amnesty except forgiveness?

[gazbom]

South Africa had this concept after Apartheid.

To come clean...no punishment.

Anyone knows what that was ?

Hi Jenny!
It was the Truth and Reconciliation Commission.
In 1994 South Africa finally ended the tragic events of Apartheid that had plagued the nation for many years. For 81 years South Africa suffered through Apartheid. The South African Apartheid started in 1913. Over the next 80 years black Africans were treated poorly, with no rights and no peace. After the years of oppression, it finally ended when a new president was elected. This paper provides an overview of the South African Apartheid and how it came to an end. The report describes the Democratic elections to bring a new president into office that officially closed the times of the Apartheid. It explains the Truth and Reconciliation Commission and its role in bringing forgiveness and healing to South Africa. It also explains how Nelson Mandela acted as president and what he did after his presidency. The report thus explains the path towards the end of Apartheid and the possibility of hope in South Africa.

[Jenny]

Yes, that's what I was thinking of.. The Truth and Reconciliation Commission.

Instead of Amnesty OR Vengeance; Truth and Reconciliation.

[khepran]

I say amnesty. They have to live with what they did, that's punishment enough. Give them a chance to do something productive, like farming...

[undetected]

To save myself some typing, I will say that I totally agree with the post of NancyV.

To add a bit more...

"They absolutely owe us the truth, the whole, unvarnished truth, and they owe it to us right now."
Sorry but this is arrogance and ignorance hand in hand. Guys like Henry Deacon don't owe YOU anything. You should be very happy they told you at least a bit of what they know. Some people are pushing this "we have a right to know" to the same extremes to which government is pushing the "don't need to know" thing.

Most of you have no clue what it's been like for the people in black ops. You have no idea what they had to go through, who are you to say they owe you something? They unknowingly became victims of a very evil and exploitative system. At the point where they figured it out, they were way deep in. Escaping from there is almost impossible, the agencies don't want you to escape obviously and they can and will do anything to stop you from releasing secret information. These people put their and their families' lives at stake when talking about this. Besides, they took oaths, signed documents, thus giving you the information which you think they owe you, is actually illegal by our laws. And I'm not even talking about the mind control operations which some of them were subject to and may virtually be "unable" to tell the truth.

As for those who think that people who were in black ops, are somehow the bad guys and should be punished, here's some news for you: EVERYONE who has ever served in the army, has "sold their soul to the devil," at least for the time of the service. In the army you swear to obey orders without questioning them, with absolutely NO guarantee that the orders you will receive, will be somehow "good" or "right". Any soldier is bound to shoot whoever they tell him to shoot without asking who the victim is or what their "crime" is. You think the guys at the age of 20 see that far? They're just doing their job, and by the time they realize [IF they do - in any military service they're under constant brainwash if not mind control] what they're actually part of, it's a bit too late to say "hey I changed my mind, I'm out of here and I'm telling the world." Those who actually break the oath of secrecy and reveal anything at all, should be considered heroes indeed.

As for Henry Deacon, I have great respect and admiration for him and I'm very sorry if he left the forum. He's done a great job on Camelot/Avalon and I sincerely wish the best for him.

As for John Lear... I don't even understand what the problem is. This man has given out such incredible amount of information that I don't get what the accusation is.

"Michael St. Clair is another story entirely. He's very open and engages in dialog on a very wide range of topics."
Sure he is very open and doesn't avoid any topic. Have you maybe considered that he doesn't have a bunch of government agencies on his back, threatening him and messing with his mind?

Yes, many guys in the black ops have committed awful crimes. Then again, they commited them on government orders and often weren't aware of the nature of what they were doing. Some of them may have turned into bad people, others not. It's impossible for you or me to judge them. Be glad for the ones who are at trying to fix at least a few things now.

[murnut]

Amnesty, whether we like it or not, IS the only way forward

Agreed...Amnesty when possible short of murder

[ArthurAvalon]

To save myself some typing, I will say that I totally agree with the post of NancyV.

To add a bit more...

"They absolutely owe us the truth, the whole, unvarnished truth, and they owe it to us right now."
Sorry but this is arrogance and ignorance hand in hand. Guys like Henry Deacon don't owe YOU anything. You should be very happy they told you at least a bit of what they know. Some people are pushing this "we have a right to know" to the same extremes to which government is pushing the "don't need to know" thing.

Most of you have no clue what it's been like for the people in black ops. You have no idea what they had to go through, who are you to say they owe you something? They unknowingly became victims of a very evil and exploitative system. At the point where they figured it out, they were way deep in. Escaping from there is almost impossible, the agencies don't want you to escape obviously and they can and will do anything to stop you from releasing secret information. These people put their and their families' lives at stake when talking about this. Besides, they took oaths, signed documents, thus giving you the information which you think they owe you, is actually illegal by our laws. And I'm not even talking about the mind control operations which some of them were subject to and may virtually be "unable" to tell the truth.

As for those who think that people who were in black ops, are somehow the bad guys and should be punished, here's some news for you: EVERYONE who has ever served in the army, has "sold their soul to the devil," at least for the time of the service. In the army you swear to obey orders without questioning them, with absolutely NO guarantee that the orders you will receive, will be somehow "good" or "right". Any soldier is bound to shoot whoever they tell him to shoot without asking who the victim is or what their "crime" is. You think the guys at the age of 20 see that far? They're just doing their job, and by the time they realize [IF they do - in any military service they're under constant brainwash if not mind control] what they're actually part of, it's a bit too late to say "hey I changed my mind, I'm out of here and I'm telling the world." Those who actually break the oath of secrecy and reveal anything at all, should be considered heroes indeed.

As for Henry Deacon, I have great respect and admiration for him and I'm very sorry if he left the forum. He's done a great job on Camelot/Avalon and I sincerely wish the best for him.

As for John Lear... I don't even understand what the problem is. This man has given out such incredible amount of information that I don't get what the accusation is.

"Michael St. Clair is another story entirely. He's very open and engages in dialog on a very wide range of topics."
Sure he is very open and doesn't avoid any topic. Have you maybe considered that he doesn't have a bunch of government agencies on his back, threatening him and messing with his mind?

Yes, many guys in the black ops have committed awful crimes. Then again, they commited them on government orders and often weren't aware of the nature of what they were doing. Some of them may have turned into bad people, others not. It's impossible for you or me to judge them. Be glad for the ones who are at trying to fix at least a few things now.

-- -----------
Bravo!
Cheers,
Thats exactly what we feel.
Arthur Avalon/ Aurion Mission.

[OceanWinds]

I do agree with Nancy, but I also agree with Frank. It is my opinion that we do not need a middle ground, but instead the best of both worlds.

So lets not have Vengeance... this helps NO one, and NO part of society... Period. Prisons, Capital Punishment, and torture have been done through out history, and still we have crime. These methods do nothing Generative at all.

The only benefit of Vengeance is to please the person who gets off on it. Its easy to succumb to revenge, but again it serves no purpose other than to get off on it. Vengeance is NOT a direction humanity needs.

Now just because Society does not seek Vengeance, does not mean we should not have Deterrents. YES we need deterrents otherwise everyone would take every chance they get to do what ever comes into their minds. This doesn't mean Jail time, Murder, Lengthy Trials, and other stuff that doesn't work.

Instead look at the acts (not crimes, because this labels them) committed, and figure out a program to rehabilitate or allows these people to still contribute to society. Figure out why the people committed the acts they did. Figure out what society did to allow these acts to happen. And figure out solutions to the problems.

An example is world war one. After world war one, Germany was punished for trying to take over the world. It was forced to pay reparations to France, and was in a poor state. The people of Germany were angry, upset, and looked to a leader... that leader was Hitler. The moral of the story is that if the worlds leading nations gave Germany a helping hand after the war, and made the necessary precautions to ensure that Germany would not start another war in the mean time. Another war would most likely not have taken place.

So please dont allow these people at the top to be in the military, government, or business if they are threats. Dont allow them to have loads of money. Let them live discretely, under a form of parole. Figure out their actions and motives... and act accordingly to their situation. But help them... do not punish them. Because the acts that they are performing are not rational... and are those of sick people. I dont have all the answers, but I do know that Vengeance is not Generative on any level.

P.S. Thanks to all the people on the "Dark Side" who are whistle blowing, and helping to change the face of the planet.

[brightstar]

I must have missed something, what happened to Henry Deacon? I didn't know he left here.

As far as John Lear goes, It is my understanding that all he did was fly various planes for all he ever did. That was his job pure and simple. As to the cargo that was not his responsibility, only to fly the planes. He was also a test pilot who tested new airplanes that were made to see how they did, handled, etc. I would think he would have had to have some kind of a security clearance in order to just be able to get on the various military bases, etc., but I do not think he had real high clearance. I do not doubt that he met many peoples in all of the years he has flown various missions for the CIA and whoever else, but this does not make him a big bad black ops person. John is unique, he is a cowboy in his own right by being a pilot, it takes nerves and guts to be a test pilot, but he loved flying and that was what he did. I cannot and will not fault anyone from doing a job they love like that.

Had he been involved in various scientific projects where he made WMD's or done horrible things to other humans or kidnapped peoples, etc., then it would be a whole different story indeed. I like John Lear and with all I have ever heard him say, all he wanted to do was fly his planes.

As far as punishment or amnesty, this is an aspect I have thought some on, but not in depth. I know that many peoples have been pulled into these various government jobs under certain pretnses and then after they are in these jobs, they are then used, many have been deliberately set up in order for the various PTB to blackmail them and try to retain controls over them. So how do you judge someone in such a position, it then becomes one of those you are da_____ed if you do, and da_____ed if you don't type situations. Many are not allowed to leave and are assassinated, or their families have been threatened. So they are put into a terrible situation indeed and it is those very ones I would have to have compassion on to a large degree and would consider amnesty indeed if they came totally clean with all they were aware of and knew first hand.

However, the ones on the top levels, I would really have to think on those and the evils they have committed against humanity, their countries, the peoples, and their own governments. Some I do think would deserve to be tried in the Courts of Law. But this is a very touchy subject indeed. It would have to be a case by case situation depending upon the level of authorities they held as I see it.

The whistleblowers, however, are the ones that have to have a conscience who have been put in bad situations. They know things are wrong and this is why they are trying to tell what little they can to get the attention of the peoples in hopes the peoples at least wake up. And because I would think they would like to see the evils they know of stopped. But they also know that if they go totally public with their identities, then they will probably be assassinated also, and no one wants to have to live with this type of situation.

I don't like all the missing peoples either, and all of the missing children, but before one gets on here stating that certain individuals ought to be done this way or that, one better know for sure just what they are talking about instead of making assumptions just because this one worked for black ops or that one did, etc. etc. Anyone one of us could have been caught in the same type of situation just trying to make a living and then when we find just what is really going on then it is too late usually.




brightstar

[Norval]

The Search for Truth - Amnesty or Vengeance?

Kerry said;
"Whether "the people" are able to forgive them, and limit vengeance will be partially due
to projects like ours that began to reveal the truth to the people."
And,
"... Some may not be so generous."

Many have heard this;
"Vengeance is mine," says the Lord, "I will repay."
Understanding that this is the King of all the Galaxies speaking, coming to take
vengeance, deliver the oppressed, puts that message and this topic in a different light
altogether.

Because of what has happened to friends, loved ones, and ones involved in this research,
I, for one, would love to take vengeance into my own hands. I will not though, but I do
fervently hope that I will be chosen to help in the delivery of that vengeance that is coming
upon all those that have harmed mankind and didn't want Jesus to become King and
killed him once. Yes, King Jesus is returning, (has returned from the looks of our solar
system), and with an attitude. We can no more stop, nor alter, that vengeance than we
can, or have stopped, corruption here

This is a post that I would have preferred not to make, yet it needed to be said.

For some it will be a "doom and gloom" post while for others it will mean "deliverance
and exhilaration". This is a "whistle blower" testimony about a finished message from ET,
the bible, that has been in our hands now for two thousand years.

Religionocity and demonocracy have no place in a monarchy.
The technology of the bad ET’s / fallen angels is just fools play compared to what is
coming.

Sincerely
Norval L. Cunningham :trumpet: Where's the "whistle blower one? :winksmiley02:

[Shechaiyah]

Justice is NEITHER Amnesty NOR Vengeance. Outcomes are critical to social discipline.

Justice is, the good and harmless person doing a good or harmless act OUGHT TO MANIFEST a good outcome (not be punished for doing good);

and

the person with intention to do harm that deceives, cheats, injures, violates another person's CONSENT OUGHT TO BE disrupted, corrected and placed back on the path to doing Good -- or expelled from society somehow.

But in any case -- Destruction IS NEVER a Blessing, and Life ITSELF is NEVER "the problem."


Shech--:mfr_omg:

[Zynox]

RESOLVED:

If one has gravitated to Avalon for Peace and Radiant Zone Communities, then one seeks more than they have found in the current predominant paradigms.

RESOLVED:

If one intends to act in accordance with all is one / one is all, I am the world / the world is me, then understanding of each individual expression of the all / world is paramount to acting upon the intention.

OBSERVATIONS:

While I respect some feel that disclosure is important, and impacting, even disclosure is only a source of knowledge, and knowledge itself may be perceived as history and the past.

Knowledge is not wisdom.

Wisdom may be defined, on levels, as applied knowledge.

BLESSING:

To be in relation(ship) with another, Krishnamurti shared that there is no relation, at all, when knowledge is the foundation, because we are then in the past, and, not living from the heart, but the mind.

Castenada shared what resides, in our minds (parasites).

May we live within, and from, our hearts.

CONCLUSION:

The above is offered in love, and may each friend that reads it find, within, their own perspective and resonance.

INTENTION > CHANGE = ACTION

~ love and namaste, my sisters and brothers ~

[rosie]

I would have to say amnesty. Any other action could put us back into the dark ages. This is what it is about. To move forward, without prejudice, and with empathy towards those that "have not quite got it yet".

I do not fear what I am not told, and am thankful for what I do receive, from these sources.

Note: I am from "Canada", but feeling like I am from "Earth", as we all feel the same pain, we all cry, we all laugh, we all love. No matter what path we have taken on this beautiful planet earth.

Love & Peace

[Cindy]

Amnesty is the only way we can learn the truth. As frustrated and perhaps angry we may be for all that has happened, we cannot have open communication if we are ready to take vengence. I only want the truth whatever that may be. I feel that it is our human-right to know what is happening beneath the surface. It is wrong to keep humanity in the dark. Regardless of whether most of humanity are ready for it or not. I feel that humans need to know that we are part of this Galactic family. We ALL need to know the programs that have been implanted in the minds of humans to keep them from seeing what is real. I am ready for a full-blown, in your face, disclosure. Let it out and let us figure out where the pieces will fall. I understand why those who are speaking out are sending us little pieces of information, because they have to protect themselves from personal harm. I bless Deacon and Lear for sharing and doing their part. I just wish to see and learn more. I want to be a part of re-creating a healthier and more peaceful planet. And in doing so, I must know what has taken place in order to lay the foundation for this new reality. I ask that whoever has information please step forward with courage. So many of us want to listen and not take vengeance.

[Shechaiyah]

Are you FOR AMNESTY for parasitic, predatory and violent criminals who have no sense of "Rule by Law"?

Just wondered what kind of world this would be if there were no accountability for effects we create AGAINST others, TO HARM THEM.


:thumbdown:

[milk and honey]

"Vengeance is mine sayeth the Lord, I will repay"

This is a statement of the impersonal LAW of the Universe but to make it understandable to unevolved people it was stated in the 'first person'. God and the Law are synonymous in scripture.

It is a simple statement of the law of karma.

"Whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap"

All of us have set causes in motion and we will experience the effects of our actions. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. That's how the karmic law holds all accountable and that is why we are admonished in all the world's scriptures to surrender our desire for vengeance.... lest we set fresh karma in motion.

Having said that, there are some people who are a clear and present danger to others and they are not unreasonably restrained. In any worldly system of justice where offenders are brought to account, consideration is given to motive, remorse and bearable reparation.

But somehow i don't think we are in any position to bring the power elite or their operatives to account for their actions. They have all the temporal power and protections in their hands. They have corrupted every system of society to serve themselves and this has enabled them to dodge their karma. Many of us may also have feathered our own nests under their wing in past lives and may have been a part of the problem rather than the solution. It's not unthinkable.

Most people's evil is relative, expressing itself in lives of black, white and shades of grey.

But there are some on Earth who's evil is 'pure' and absolute.

Nevertheless, that evil is not immortal. Souls can reach the end of an opportunity to evolve with other souls of similar evolution; ie the human race. A time of judgement is upon the Earth. A separation of souls according to "works" (vibration and intent) is now taking place as each one goes through the change called 'death'. Some will 'graduate' and transcend the earth plane, some will reincarnate on earth again and others have such a grievous karmic burden so heavy that they have run out of opportunity to ever re-incarnate here again. This is the dividing of the Way. The "shift".

It is a shift in consciousness for those who will. Information and knowledge won't save us but what we do with it counts. We don't depend on the "insiders'" revelations so much as the revelation of our own inner- spirit. But we do appreciate whatever genuine contributions the 'insiders' can give us.

[Shechaiyah]

I wish I could say, that karma works in the short-run.

If so, what's happening to our banking industry?

I think, one must expect to FACILITATE Justice and NOT to IGNORE Injustice.

Not-See-ism is about being passive and ignoring Injustice until it comes right up to you and smacks you in the face.

Am I wrong?


Shech--

[Cindy]

No you are right that we should not ignore it. I think the orignal question put out was Amnesty or Vengeance? I do not believe in "an eye for an eye" philosophy, but I do believe that there should be accountability. If we are to move forward into a world of living "ethically" then we have to forgive and stand firm at the same time. It is a hard balance, but it can be done.

[Souther]

Amnesty. Law of Allowance.

"Souther"

[Shechaiyah]

I'm sorry I don't understand.

AMNESTY FOR WHOM?

Banksters and Fraudsters?
Defense contractor/TORTURERS?
Serial Killers, snipers and assassins?
Polluters?
Slavers?
Corporate Plunderers?

WHO?




Shech--

[Har]

The worldwide search for truth is gaining momentum lately and if you understand astrology it could be explained as a "logical progression". But one could also "translate" this search to dis-cover the truth with breaking down the old before building the new. And everything that is NOT based on truth will be torn down. It is called restoring balance.

Human "belief systems" have the search for truth at their core. But don't make any mistake: allthough the search for truth is at the core this does not mean you make the right decisions all the time. Decisions are based on many aspects and information or dis-information play an important role. If you have been dis-informed all the time, chances are your make mis-formed decisions. Sometimes there is a task in playing out such a life.

However, while 'free will' gives you the opportunity to make mistakes they are also great to grow if you recognize them as aspects you can learn from.

The real question is: What makes you think you are qualified to judge any-one? In the act of judging you are creating duality where there was none before.

Better is to encourage every-one to find their own core and speak and walk their truth and held their head up, proud and not afraid. In that way momentum will grow much faster and whistleblowers are encouraged. Judging will only slow down this process.

You are not a court.

[SuperManny]

AMNESTY FOR WHOM?

Banksters and Fraudsters?
Defense contractor/TORTURERS?
Serial Killers, snipers and assassins?
Polluters?
Slavers?
Corporate Plunderers?

WHO?
Shech--
YES!!

All of the above!!

It is not up to us to judge them. Higher Powers will take care of that!

However we don't need to give them the opportunity to do it again!:winksmiley02:

[Shechaiyah]

What OTHER adult experiences would you like to ABROGATE besides establishing a Just Society?

You want to believe this happens by magic, or by itself? That's WISHING.

Witches merely wish.


Shech--

[Realview]

While mercy and forgiveness is a good thing in general and I think necessary for the more or less innocent people to stop participation. There are elements withing these organizations most specifically, the Jesuits that will never stop. Throughout their history, the Jesuits have been kicked out of country after country time and again to no avail. Every setback is just a learning experience that results in revenge being taken later. Spain imprisoned Jesuit General Ricci, Germany and Italy encouraged Pope Clement IV to banish them. The result was Fascisim and Nazism for all three countries. Benito Juarez tried to defeat them resulting on 1 million Mexicans dieing in the inquisition/purges that followed. The Jesuits view the game as a matter of simply polishing their tactics.

The issue is making a clear separation between those who are perpetrating and those who are following unwittingly or unwillingly.

That being said, England had an open hunting season on the Jesuits at one point, see a Jesuit kill him, no questions asked. Well the Jesuits rule them now. The root needs to be discovered and exposed and dealt with distinctly from the worker bees in or out of the organizations.

[Shechaiyah]

The root of the problem lies with the Council of Trent, 1535-1563, in which "freedom of conscience," "freedom of speech," "freedom of assembly" and "freedom of the press" are DECLARED TO BE ANATHEMA, deserving of death.

Every Pope SINCE has had to sign off on it; and the Jesuits enforce it, by hook or by crook.

England just repealed the 1689 Bill of Rights forbidding an UK Monarch from marrying a Papist (Roman Catholic) which means according to the UK State Law, the Pope is now BACK IN THE BEDROOM WITH THE KING.

Oh well. People never learn.


Shech--

[seagull]

Why have they gone? Those diamonds in the sand.

"It is also known that John Lear flew for Air America which
was a CIA asset."

A pilot for the CIA did I read? Or just a highly paid contracted pilot. There have been and still are literally thousands of such pilots flying Secret missions. This does not mean that the nature of their work is actually Secret. Vietnam alone had thousands. I'd bet that many of those missions were cocaine runs and for support of small arms type weapons distributions. I wonder what John Lear's ethics were at that time. Millions of government workers routinely travel with travel orders marked as Secret. There usually is nothing Secret about their travels. This is just a blanket travel policy well known to almost anyone who has worked in many of the government agencies.

Above Top Secret work is an all together different matter isn't it? Was John Lear ever cleared Above the Secret level yet alone Above the Top Secret level? If so, what classified experiences has he disclosed to the public?

Should he be held accountable to disclose everything to the public that he did at even the lower Secret level flying missions? Why does the camelot team appear to be slowly slacking off on their promises of support for those who have come forward to disclose anything at all? Why has there been an air of silence about the disappearance of Henry Deacon?

It's no wonder they have disappeared from this forum.

If I treated my pets this way I would expect them run away or to look for a new home. Maybe these humans are viewed as expendable animals too.

I agree with comments others have made that these people do not owe us anything. It is between them and their creator alone.

Where are the camelot witnesses now? I want to know.

For the project team. What secrets do you have that you are not disclosing to us? You owe it to us to tell us all you know. Do you agree?

"We honor them here, and offer protection and support for those who follow in their path."

[Shechaiyah]

Heh heh.

I disappeared off there too, after I located human forms on one of Lear's old Moon photos that he emailed me, to de-code.

After that, he called me insane and cut off my registration. Never banned me, of course not.

Shech--