The thread that goes against everything we want... *4 Reports* Simon

[mikey]

Hi people...i dont want to dwell on it too much but i found something thats irritated me somewhat. I stumbled on this thread the other day, posted on it, and whilst reflecting i am struggling to understand how or why it was started in the first place...i mean i know why it was started but it goes completely against everything we or i stand for and what i want or envision for a new ''world''. A world of peace and no suffering for anyone...
Is my vision too perfect do u think...is it impossible to attain such a level where all violence and/or intention of violence is not a choice... I sincerely hope not.
Heres the thread - http://projectavalon.net/forum/showthread.php?t=3225

Can we please make an effort to not have any other threads like these which are so engulfed in negativity im almost embarrassed it was on this forum.

There are forums dedicated to this kind of stuff and i dont feel it is here if i can say that...please feel free to agree or disagree with me on this but i think this needed to be said.

Lets raise the level people...there is no path to peace, peace is the path

bananaman

[MMe M]

You can tell the starving people that are going to use whatever they posess to separate you from your families food stores that we all just need to love each other a little more and that im really not about violence. It may work.

But heres what im thinkin.

Its just a guess, but im thinkin looking down the business end of a .44 is going to be just a little more persuasive than that whole lovey you, peace and good vibes dude comin your way brain wave. Not to mention we may just need to hunt to survive. Peace iznt gonna fill yer belly.

THEREFORE VALID!

[Jamie]

Hi Banana

I know what you mean my man.

Even though I posted stating that I own a K-Bar knife, the knife is a survival knife, being designed for heavy usage over many years.

It is not designed to used as a killing implement, although it could be.

Although I have trained in Martial Arts myself, I really don't like the idea of violence in any form. I believe the founder of Aikido had it spot on with the system that he developed.

Peace

Jay

[mikey]

Hey...I mean no offense to anyone here, i just think this forum was set up to establish new communities for like minded people to come together to exchange ideas for a new tomoro and a better tomoro.
A tomoro where there is no need for violence for our planet has endured enough blood shed.
Instead of 'where can i buy a gun to feed my family' maybe we should focus more on growing our own food and being self-sufficient. Community unity and sharing is what is gona get people thru hard times...not staring down the barrel of a gun in my honest opinion!
I state again that i would defend my family with my life, i have no worries about this and do not fear it but i just dont see the use for violence or the intention for violence and think the thread stated was fully submerged in all the wrong vibes.
There is lots of great info out there and on here about growing food and fishing... (believe it or not there are a few healthy happy people out there eating nothing and purely sungazing!) :smoke:
(just incase u were interested - http://www.solarhealing.com/)

Sometimes the bigger picture is so big it is hard to see

"I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent." - Gandhi

peace bananaman

[Anchor]

I have been trying to think about why the gun thread evoked such an emotion.

To me guns and other weapons are tools. The core issue is all about "intent" and personal responsibility for that intent. To a hunter, a gun bags his next meal. To a killer, it is the dispatching of his next victim, but it is still only a gun. In fact, shooting a gun really accurately is a martial art.

I can see that the associated glamour and machismo that gets attached to guns is the real problem, and to a certain extent, fear based associations. So I can see that it is distracting from the forums main goal and anyway there are a huge number of other places that have more and higher quality debate about guns.

For the record, I have shot all manner of different projectile weapons at targets and it is huge fun, and a real challenge to do it well. But then I like martial arts as well. None of that makes me negative or a bad-person with bad-vibe issues.

The other thing that occurs to me is about knives.

You need a knife in your survival kits. Simple - if you think you need a survival kit, then you need an appropriate knife. I am sure this will be discussed at some point in the prepper sub-forum - and that must happen. I would appeal for the moderators to allow that discussion.

A..

[mikey]

I have been trying to think about why the gun thread evoked such an emotion.

To me guns and other weapons are tools. The core issue is all about "intent" and personal responsibility for that intent. To a hunter, a gun bags his next meal. To a killer, it is the dispatching of his next victim, but it is still only a gun. In fact, shooting a gun really accurately is a martial art.

I can see that the associated glamour and machismo that gets attached to guns is the real problem, and to a certain extent, fear based associations. So I can see that it is distracting from the forums main goal and anyway there are a huge number of other places that have more and higher quality debate about guns.

For the record, I have shot all manner of different projectile weapons at targets and it is huge fun, and a real challenge to do it well. But then I like martial arts as well. None of that makes me negative or a bad-person with bad-vibe issues.

The other thing that occurs to me is about knives.

You need a knife in your survival kits. Simple - if you think you need a survival kit, then you need an appropriate knife. I am sure this will be discussed at some point in the prepper sub-forum - and that must happen. I would appeal for the moderators to allow that discussion.

A..

You are quite right....having played with guns or trained in martial arts does not make u negative or a bad-person with bad-vibe issues. On the contrary it should make u more wise and disciplined in the meaning and truth of the art in question and more respectful of the guns and their potential.
I stated that the thread in question was swaying deeply into a negatively vibed area where owning a gun is crucial and imperative for survival even at the expense of other beings. That is simply not how we need to move forward and ultimately will not move forward with this frame of thought.

Knives imo are multi-usable tools and vitally important to have in the suggested up'n'coming scenarios but guns bring a different dimension.
Maybe we just think differently but i can assure you, i will not be holding a gun to anybodys head to get my next meal...

This is a good video if u have time to watch it - Freedom of Choice - http://projectavalon.net/forum/showthread.php?t=3260

peace
bananaman

[Anchor]

Maybe we just think differently but i can assure you, i will not be holding a gun to anybodys head to get my next meal...

No, we definately agree.

[gazbom]

No, we definitely agree.
No, but someone might be holding one to your head while his friend is raping your daughter!
The guy has a good point, look what happened in the New Orleans sports stadium during the Hurricane, women robbed and raped, people murdered!

The masses will be like wild dogs, you will need to protect your family, believe me.

[Anchor]

No, but someone might be holding one to your head while his friend is raping your daughter!
The guy has a good point, look what happened in the New Orleans sports stadium during the Hurricane, women robbed and raped, people murdered!

The masses will be like wild dogs, you will need to protect your family, believe me.

It strikes me as strange that people in a survival situation would be more interested in food and resources, rather than sex.

Eitherway I can assure you that he would need to kill me.

A..

[gazbom]

It strikes me as strange that people in a survival situation would be more interested in food and resources, rather than sex.

Eitherway I can assure you that he would need to kill me.

A..
But that wouldn't help your daughter would it?

[Anchor]

Ok, Im getting told-off by my higher self for posting the previous comment. I cant realistically edit it because I have been quoted already and so now I am going to just stop.

We have more important things to talk about.

May you all be found blessed in the light and in the love of the one infinate creator.

A..

[gazbom]

Ok, Im getting told-off by my higher self for posting the previous comment. I cant realistically edit it because I have been quoted already and so now I am going to just stop.

We have more important things to talk about.

May you all be found blessed in the light and in the love of the one infinate creator.

A..
I absolutely agree with you Anchor!

[Colin]

Ok guys..

We need to calm this one down or it will get locked.

The discussion of using guns for survival, although relevant, is not what we're happy seeing posted on Avalon. There are numerous other sites to find this information.

Please respect each other's opinions on this highly touchy subject & dont try to badger other members into seeing it from your own point of view.

We all know, in our own hearts how we would react if such a situation arose. But not everyone feels comfortable discussing it..

[mikey]

Thank you Muzza!!...and again apologies if i have offended anybody..

peace and love

bananaman

[Lance]

I'm confused by the notion of guns=bad. I live in rural British Columbia and to be honest, I've been tracked by a cougar (later shot) walking with my then 5 year old. I've been in several 'conflicts' with black bears, hunted by a grizzly and pestered by a kermode. What in god's snot should I do to avoid having a gun...move to Vancouver? I shoot a 50 LB recurve bow which is almost enough weight to hunt (legally you only need to shoot a 40LB bow) with, but really...using a bow in a bear rush situation doesn't seem to make sense to me.

I DO NOT own a gun!
But I am about to get my 'PAL' and buy a 22 long barrel, a shotgun of some sort, and a hunting rifle. I was kind of hoping someone here might be able to assist me in what to buy. But the knee-jerk reactions to the gun thread got it closed...Next autumn I plan on hunting elk and deer to supplement my families diet.

[Heretic]

guns...of all kinds will of course be absolutely necessary to protect yourself and perhaps hunting as the lesser evil

that is if you live in a community that requires this

my intention of being here at Avalon, is to avert this situation altogether


The tongue like a sharp knife... Kills without drawing blood. - Buddha

[strayslack]

Hi people...i dont want to dwell on it too much but i found something thats irritated me somewhat. I stumbled on this thread the other day, posted on it, and whilst reflecting i am struggling to understand how or why it was started in the first place...i mean i know why it was started but it goes completely against everything we or i stand for and what i want or envision for a new ''world''. A world of peace and no suffering for anyone...
Is my vision too perfect do u think...is it impossible to attain such a level where all violence and/or intention of violence is not a choice... I sincerely hope not.
Heres the thread - http://projectavalon.net/forum/showthread.php?t=3225

Can we please make an effort to not have any other threads like these which are so engulfed in negativity im almost embarrassed it was on this forum.

There are forums dedicated to this kind of stuff and i dont feel it is here if i can say that...please feel free to agree or disagree with me on this but i think this needed to be said.

Lets raise the level people...there is no path to peace, peace is the path

bananaman

Respectfully, the answer to your question is a resounding "no".
I want nothing more than peace, and an end to this world of violence that we've created for ourselves, but this forum is about survival, and sharing information on surviving whatever might be coming. To that end, I will protect my family, which includes a 5-year old and 2 2-year olds, against anyone who tries to harm them, or take the means of survival from them. I will not use my weapons to harm anyone at all, except those that seek to do harm to me or my family.
I also plan to hunt game for food.
So I wish everyone peace and prosperity and the love that we all deserve. However, if you mean us harm, you will be sorry.
It's not a macho thing, it's using yet another tool to accomplish a goal. Survival.

[pineal-pilot-in merkabah]

we all know what we have to do.. since the usa is most likely to errupt into chaos. some may feel trhe need to havea weapon for prtoection on the way to their safe spot. i posted in the previous thraed to push the guy on about guns in a more healthier direction with out trying to offend. i to have a K BAR knife for survival purpose only. :)

[strayslack]

I'm confused by the notion of guns=bad. I live in rural British Columbia and to be honest, I've been tracked by a cougar (later shot) walking with my then 5 year old. I've been in several 'conflicts' with black bears, hunted by a grizzly and pestered by a kermode. What in god's snot should I do to avoid having a gun...move to Vancouver? I shoot a 50 LB recurve bow which is almost enough weight to hunt (legally you only need to shoot a 40LB bow) with, but really...using a bow in a bear rush situation doesn't seem to make sense to me.

I DO NOT own a gun!
But I am about to get my 'PAL' and buy a 22 long barrel, a shotgun of some sort, and a hunting rifle. I was kind of hoping someone here might be able to assist me in what to buy. But the knee-jerk reactions to the gun thread got it closed...Next autumn I plan on hunting elk and deer to supplement my families diet.

I can provide you with adequate advice if you so desire.

[mudhog92]

Guns don't kill, people do. They are a tool. They can be used for survival, and sadly, defense. You are allowed to defend yourself, even spiritually speaking. The number one documented deterrent to a criminal is if they know you have weapons. I used to sport shoot, but since awakeniong sold all but two guns, .22 for small game if I need, and a pistol to defend if I must. I hope to GOD i never have to shoot anyone, but if someone threatens my family, I will defend myself. If they want my food, I'll cook it for them. But do not harm my kids. I will not watch someone hurt my kids without a fight.

[Natoka]

I find it interesting that all but one of these entries above came from outside the US, even though we here know the US will be in chaos. No matter where we call home, I feel each of us will do what is necessary to safeguard our beloveds and close friends from harm. May we have the Wisdom to prepare and choose, while under deep duress, our actions well .

Natoka

[gazbom]

I find it interesting that all but one of these entries above came from outside the US, even though we here know the US will be in chaos. No matter where we call home, I feel each of us will do what is necessary to safeguard our beloveds and close friends from harm. May we have the Wisdom to prepare and choose, while under deep duress, our actions well .

Natoka
The West will fall not only the US, in the UK for example their is now 1 CCTV surveillance camera for every 17 people, the total population is a total of 60 million, take off your blinkers, it's happening everywhere!

[MMe M]

I find it interesting that all but one of these entries above came from outside the US, even though we here know the US will be in chaos. No matter where we call home, I feel each of us will do what is necessary to safeguard our beloveds and close friends from harm. May we have the Wisdom to prepare and choose, while under deep duress, our actions well .

Natoka



Too right. The UK has lost their guns, Only the criminals have them now.


I am not selfish, but people that have not prepared will not care if they leave you one grain of rice. Share if you can but It is the supreme act of idiocy to lay down your only defense against starvation and the wellbeing of your family. This concept of we all love each other is tossed out the door the minute some run out of food, water and medicine. People have and will kill for food within three days after the breakdown of civilization. Do not think my friends that we are any more civilized or benign than any other people throughout our known history.

[777 The Great Work]

Hi people...i dont want to dwell on it too much but i found something thats irritated me somewhat. I stumbled on this thread the other day, posted on it, and whilst reflecting i am struggling to understand how or why it was started in the first place...i mean i know why it was started but it goes completely against everything we or i stand for and what i want or envision for a new ''world''. A world of peace and no suffering for anyone...
Is my vision too perfect do u think...is it impossible to attain such a level where all violence and/or intention of violence is not a choice... I sincerely hope not.
Heres the thread - http://projectavalon.net/forum/showthread.php?t=3225

Can we please make an effort to not have any other threads like these which are so engulfed in negativity im almost embarrassed it was on this forum.

There are forums dedicated to this kind of stuff and i dont feel it is here if i can say that...please feel free to agree or disagree with me on this but i think this needed to be said.

Lets raise the level people...there is no path to peace, peace is the path

bananaman

Coded message with intent to seek out the weak and bring negative energy. I noticed his posting privledges were revoked.

[ForsakenFalcon]

I do understand O.P's main concern but realisticly if crap hits the fan and there are going to be ground crews up and sufficantly running then sadly there is going to be People whom are going to want the bearing's of what a safe zone could offer with out contributeing and worse case they pillige the ground crews to the point of no way to restart then move onto the next safe spot.

Reguardless on how You think/feel the probability of ALL ground crew's needing some form of Guardian's/Warrior's is going to be high espicaly around populated city's.

[arcora]

No, but someone might be holding one to your head while his friend is raping your daughter!
The guy has a good point, look what happened in the New Orleans sports stadium during the Hurricane, women robbed and raped, people murdered!

The masses will be like wild dogs, you will need to protect your family, believe me.


A weapon of some sort is necessary for PROTECTION. I've said this before but it bears repeating. Love is not going to protect you from the angry confused and violent masses. The new agers here can create all the glowing, loving, radiant energy bubbles they want - but it won't protect them from the physical threats of starving 1/2 crazed humans turned animal.

If I intended to ride out the storm in an urban area I would arm myself to the teeth.

Closing the mentioned thread because it goes against someone's own moral values is irresponsible. If this forum is to be about surviving coming cataclysms, then survival of the physical body must be planned and discussed.

Avalon members haven't cornered the market on survival intentions. What will you do when your happy loving commune is raided by former commandos turned survivalist who are more Machiavellian in nature?

[Operator]

Hi,

I think this thread is great. It gives a clear angle on how to prepare:

1. Who lives by the sword dies by the sword ! We should stay away from weapons
2. But there will be many people who don't understand 1. That's why other people tell you to prepare a radiant zone.

There should be no such lunatics in your vicinity (and it goes beyond weapons alone) that interferes with your preparation

Now here's a very good video that will indidcate what I am talking about:

http://www.consciousmedianetwork.com/members/drunvalo.htm

Watch till the end because that's where the clue is !

Cheers

[arcora]

Living in peace love and harmony is noble - don't get me wrong. But maybe it will help some here to think about it this way.

What happened to the Native Americans when the white men came? How did their trusting noble nature serve them when the whites wanted what they had? Were they naive?

What could the Native Americans done differently to survive and keep their lifestyle?

If you can answer that question you'll be on your way.

[Genevieve]

I have been reading this thread with much interest, much trepidation and some amusement.

The truth is most of us in this forum have absolutely NO first hand idea of what it is like when the confines of law & order breakdown - or what it is like to be taken over by another enforcement - or even how your loving neighbours will react when they themselves are starving.

Truth is neither to i - personally. That is where it is important to listen to your elders!!! lol

For my part my paternal grandparents lived thru the German occupation of Holland during WWII. They emigrated to Australia when my father was 10. I as the first grandchild had the (sometimes unwanted) luxury of being privvy to all that happened to them during that war!! lol Now i am eternaly grateful for their concern in sharing it all with me.

From all the stories I heard over the years ( and believe me some of them i know word for word!!! lol) a few distinct codes so to speak stand out.

never underestimate what some people will do when it is their life or their child's life at stake

conversely never underestimate how wonderful people can be in the face of extreme adversity

always remember your humanity and maintain a sense of humour

never give up hope

Points of example -

german soldiers who came to their house (after all they were just people too) and who made my dad his first pair of shoes out of a piece of leather
on returning from germany.

neighbours segregating my great grandfather AFTER the war because the poor man chose to join the communist party in a desperate attempt to avert the nazis during the war

stories of my grandfather cycling back from the german shipyards where he was "commissioned" to work as a boilermaker on a bicycle with rubber tyres cut up for wheels and smuggling some german parachute silk out for Oma to make stockings with and some real soap!!

living in one room of a former mansion where Queen Juliana used to holiday after the dykes were bombed and my father getting "arrested: at 4 years old for sitting on the head of the statue of said queen!!

To put this all in context

NONE of us know what we will do in times of adversity but it is worth mentioning here that NONE of my rellies had or chose or even contemplated using firearms!!!

But they survived with love and dignity and their humanity intact.

[Genevieve]

ohh this is a PS

should have added that obviously living in australia - the fact that not everybody has a handgun in the top drawer is a great deciding factor - as i presume it was back in war torn europe. That being said there is nothing to stop a person using an axe a shovel or a piece of wood as a form of domination either - just gives everyone else a fighting chance!!!

If need be i'll use my grass rake to protect my children!!! lol :wink2:

[arcora]

but it is worth mentioning here that NONE of my rellies had or chose or even contemplated using firearms!!!

If the troops are calling the shots, firearms will be useless and counter productive.

But I think people here are thinking in terms of a total and complete collapse of all systems.

[colesmommy1117]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jpqKA9_ddFk

[ForsakenFalcon]

ohh this is a PS

should have added that obviously living in australia - the fact that not everybody has a handgun in the top drawer is a great deciding factor - as i presume it was back in war torn europe. That being said there is nothing to stop a person using an axe a shovel or a piece of wood as a form of domination either - just gives everyone else a fighting chance!!!

If need be i'll use my grass rake to protect my children!!! lol :wink2:

Depends where in Aus You are =/

The Mornington Penninsular in Melbourne's is going to be one scary hell hole =/ Eithen though not alot do have gun's ALOT of the wrong People do however I rather be shot and die instantly from a single bullet then have gang's of People ambush Me with Sharp blade's and Blunt Wepon's.

P.S Hoooray for Golf Clubs!

[Gale]

The new agers here can create all the glowing, loving, radiant energy bubbles they want - but it won't protect them from the physical threats of starving 1/2 crazed ... ride out the storm in an urban area I would arm myself to the teeth ... closing the mentioned thread because it goes against someone's own moral values is irresponsible. If this forum is to be about surviving coming cataclysms, then survival of the physical body must be planned and discussed ... Avalon members haven't cornered the market on survival intentions. What will you do when your happy loving commune is raided by former commandos turned survivalist who are more Machiavellian in nature?

:thumb_yello:

There are a lot of items close at hand that can be used as a weapon, look in your kitchen cupboard and there is no license need for a flare gun that would have many uses.
:winksmiley02:

[arcora]

One last thing to think about if you believe enlightenment and love will save your physical form.

Ghandi was shot to death.

[Anchor]

Love is not going to protect you from the angry confused and violent masses.

I predict that one day you will experience a miracle. That miracle will show you how love (and all that other stuff you listed) can indeed protect you - and a whole lot more.

Until that day happens we must agree to differ.

A..

[Anchor]

Ghandi was shot to death.

Everyone dies somehow. At least he died with his mission accomplished.

[Sherab]

Living in peace love and harmony is noble - don't get me wrong. But maybe it will help some here to think about it this way.

What happened to the Native Americans when the white men came? How did their trusting noble nature serve them when the whites wanted what they had? Were they naive?

What could the Native Americans done differently to survive and keep their lifestyle?

If you can answer that question you'll be on your way.

An interesting point. But I would like to raise some questions, for which I don't have answers. Is the survival of race to be pursued regardless of the means of achieving that survival? Would the Native Americans have been justified in killing thousands of white people so that their Native culture could survive? Care to discuss?

[MartyMcFailure]

Not everyone is so far advanced spiritually that they will be able to be doing yoga in radiant zones bartering blocks of gold for rides on the great spacer with the nordics.

im far from a violent person, but for anyone who has read the john titor material or who expects martial law/civil war in the US, its not inappropriate to at LEAST be familiar with safety and matinence of firearms. of course practicing your accuracy wouldnt hurt either. T

that being said.. it depends on where and why you have guns. if u wanna loot and pillage people in chaos, then perhaps you are a jerk. no doubt these type of people exist. "jerks" if you want to protect yourself and your family, and are willing to fight for your freedom, you are whats called a "patriot". :lightsabre:

[Sherab]

One last thing to think about if you believe enlightenment and love will save your physical form.

Ghandi was shot to death.

And the Buddha died of dysentery...
And Ramana Maharishi died of cancer...

I think the real thing is to get over the fear of dying, then it really wouldn't matter if hordes of half-crazed humans came and killed you.

[arcora]

Everyone dies somehow. At least he died with his mission accomplished.

Was it? The way I read history is he was shot by a Hindu fanatic who didn't want Ghandi to accomplish his mission of healing the rift between Hindus and Muslims. Last I checked the Hindus and Muslims have nukes pointed at each other.

An interesting point. But I would like to raise some questions, for which I don't have answers. Is the survival of race to be pursued regardless of the means of achieving that survival? Would the Native Americans have been justified in killing thousands of white people so that their Native culture could survive? Care to discuss?

The Native Americans did turn to war (and they proved to be outstanding at it) but it could be argued that their population had already been reduced to a point that numbers would cause them to lose.

[Sherab]

Was it? The way I read history is he was shot by a Hindu fanatic who didn't want Ghandi to accomplish his mission of healing the rift between Hindus and Muslims. Last I checked the Hindus and Muslims have nukes pointed at each other.



The Native Americans did turn to war (and they proved to be outstanding at it) but it could be argued that their population had already been reduced to a point that numbers would cause them to lose.

That is true. I guess I was trying to ground a hypothetical moral question in a real world example. And the question still stands. Is it right to kill or war in order to save yourself or your culture?

[TranceAm]

As usual in these discussions (And I have seen a lot of them.) the firearms are the blame of all evil. And as usual It is not the firearms, that do the damage, it is the humans that use them.

There is no problem with a gun or a riffle or a knife, as there is none with a club or a car or a hammer, it is the >>>intent<<< for what it is wielded/used/bought for.

I can pray to earth and heaven, But it is going to be hard to convince that mother bear when I am out strolling through the woods,, that I am not going to hurt her babies, or remove her coat from her..
And a straw isn't going to convince that wild pack of hungry dogs that lost their pet status and devolved back to wolves that I do not volunteer to be their next meal.

I can prepare in advance food and shelter, and maybe manage to survive longer if I have the luck of a first succeeding crop of veggies,
Or I can hand it over in fear for whatever, to a hungry pack in lynch mob form, that threaten to kill me (Or worse.) and anyone that stands in their mob way,, for what they think will help them survive for the next day, and then continue their travel like locusts through the country, until their is no one left that will have done the work for them and they turn onto each other..

I do not think that guns or violence grant me to have it my way only, over others rights, but I do think that I have the right to my way, in spite of the right of the mob because they carry more sticks in a lawless environment. And if a gun or riffle or any other weapon keeps that mob in check and acknowledge and respect my rights and the people I surround myself with, then that is all I want or ever bought the means to defend for..

Peace and Love to all and it is a sad subject,
But I for me won't close my eyes for it, by retrying the Ostrich or Dodo tactic.

[arcora]

I think the real thing is to get over the fear of dying, then it really wouldn't matter if hordes of half-crazed humans came and killed you.

Agreed. But there are things worse than death - as Gazbom pointed out. I have a responsibility to protect my family and I take that responsibility seriously.

But you bring up a good question. Is this forum about preparing to die or is it about surviving?

My opinion is that if it is about surviving - with the hope of making positive change for the next generation - then the preservation of the physical form is absolutely necessary.

[raoulduke666]

My whole intention with that thread is for PROTECTION...nothing more! Alot of our members have no idea what its going to be like if crap hits the fan. And it's everyone for themselves "outside of the Ground Crew" at the point.

Eventually if the ground crew does raise up supporting communities that are organized, you do realize eventually those communities will be challenged from the crazies out there that have no idea how to support themselves. People will do just about anything out there to survive if it's to feed their bellies to stay alive...especially if these communities have food storage. With no weapons to repel those people what are we going to do to protect ourselves or our families? Peace and love is one thing but its not going to stop someone for hurting someone you care about.

[Norval]

Is it right to kill?

Many that read the bible where it says; "Thou shall not kill" need to keep reading.
Turn the page and count how many times it says to take a life and for what cause. :mfr_omg:

When the killing starts there will be plenty of guns laying around to have my choice. :thumb_yello:

An analogy is this; When it is the first snow of the season, don't drive for a couple of
hours. Just relax and wait for all the idiots to fill the ditches. :roll1:

[arcora]

That is true. I guess I was trying to ground a hypothetical moral question in a real world example. And the question still stands. Is it right to kill or war in order to save yourself or your culture?

Hypothetically - If the Native Americans had won and wiped out the white man, would the world be better off today?

Now we're getting back into karma. Karma isn't about absolutes of right and wrong. It is about positive effect and negative effect.

It is the responsibility of the good to fight evil.

[Hypnotize]

all the love and good thoughts you have aren't going to stop a bullet from killing you. and if any blackwater guy tries to put a chip in my arm or take me to a fema camp you better believe im gunna shoot his ass.

[TranceAm]

Hypothetically - If the Native Americans had won and wiped out the white man, would the world be better off today?



I don't think the Natives realized HOW MANY white people there were, and how many could be send from Europe
Also that the reproduction rate in Europe was that high and only for that reason Europe would win..

And for the Royalty in that time, what better way to get rid of them potential revolutionaries, then to have a meat grinder at the other side of the ocean, instead of waiting until the critical mass was reached for a revolution..

The Natives never had a praying chance in hell.

[Sherab]

Agreed. But there are things worse than death - as Gazbom pointed out. I have a responsibility to protect my family and I take that responsibility seriously.

But you bring up a good question. Is this forum about preparing to die or is it about surviving?

My opinion is that if it is about surviving - with the hope of making positive change for the next generation - then the preservation of the physical form is absolutely necessary.

I think preparing to die and overcoming the fear of death are two different things.

If one is afraid of dying, then one will tend to act in irrational ways to a threat, i.e. shooting someone in a moment of reactivity instead of clear thinking.

In order to overcome the fear of death, one has to know who one really is. When one knows that, they can act spontaneously for the benefit of those around them in a clear, wise manner. If that action calls for shooting someone, okay, if not, okay. But their selfish, reactive impulses are not wrapped up in the action so they can see clearly what needs to be done.

To me, those types of people will really make a difference for the next generation.

[Sherab]

Hypothetically - If the Native Americans had won and wiped out the white man, would the world be better off today?

Now we're getting back into karma. Karma isn't about absolutes of right and wrong. It is about positive effect and negative effect.

It is the responsibility of the good to fight evil.

No, because that hypothetical "victory" would have been no different from the actual "victory" we have today: it would have been based on murder. So then are you implying that it is not okay to kill to preserve a culture? I think I would agree with you in that regard.

And on a microcosmic scale, isn't one human shooting another human in order to survive the same thing? You still end up with the same result: murder. And the same karmic consequences. So is it okay to arm ourselves with the intention of harming another before they harm us?

[TranceAm]

Why do you write this wrong?

"You still end up with the same result: murder. And the same karmic consequences. So is it okay to arm ourselves with the intention of harming another before they harm us?"

when it should be without the "pre-emptive" 'before':

"So is it okay to arm ourselves with the intention of avoiding to being harmed by another when they try to harm us?"

Cause and result are in a sequence.

Without a potential murderer, there can't be a victim.
And a victim doesn't become a murderer, without the attempt of the murderer to victimize him.

:welcomeani:

[arcora]

And on a microcosmic scale, isn't one human shooting another human in order to survive the same thing? You still end up with the same result: murder. And the same karmic consequences. So is it okay to arm ourselves with the intention of harming another before they harm us?

Would you kill one to save your family?

Your neighbors?

1,000 people?

10,000 people?

Would you have killed Adolph Hitler to save 6 million Jews?

[arcora]

"So is it okay to arm ourselves with the intention of avoiding to being harmed by another when they try to harm us?"

Without a potential murderer, there can't be a victim.
And a victim doesn't become a murderer, without the attempt of the murderer to victimize him.



Well said.

I don't think anyone here is advocating Project Avalon train roving death squads to acquire needs.

Protection (defense) is another matter entirely.

[Sherab]

Would you kill one to save your family?

Your neighbors?

1,000 people?

10,000 people?

Would you have killed Adolph Hitler to save 6 million Jews?

Let me first say that the questions I previously asked were not rhetorical, and I don't think they have cut and dry answers.

And I don't think it's possible to answer your questions by saying either yes or no as an absolute response.

What if someone did kill your family, then was so full of remorse that he went on to save thousands of lives in some other manner?

What if I did kill Hitler and one of his top generals took over and was able to turn the tide of the war in Germany's favor? We might all be speaking German and not even know what a Jew is.

My point is, how can you know? If pressed, I would fall back on my previous position that killing for the sake of your own selfish preservation is wrong. The only way to transcend killing with selfish motives is to wake up to what you are.

But then the question becomes (I think maybe we can send this one to another thread) If you did wake up, would you kill anyone to save anyone else? And that you could only know in the moment it arose. So I have successfully debated myself in a circle.

[Lythocrist]

I posted in the "Weapon of choice" thread and made it very specific that in my opinion, you should look at any sort of weapon as rather a tool. A tool to defend yourself against inevitable situations of people trying to KILL you to save themselves. (Of course these things only happen if everything really becomes chaos.)

All the gun happy people in times of chaos will learn that bullets don't make themselves, and are pretty useless without said ammo.

and if there was chaos and or Marshall law...Gunshots would draw attention like nothing else. Bow and arrow, cross bow, spear, noose trap, pit trap, the list is virtually endless with alternatives to guns for hunting or even self defense.

TOOLS save lives... WEAPONS..take them.

Peace&Love

[Carol]

I'm confused by the notion of guns=bad. I live in rural British Columbia and to be honest, I've been tracked by a cougar (later shot) walking with my then 5 year old. I've been in several 'conflicts' with black bears, hunted by a grizzly and pestered by a kermode. What in god's snot should I do to avoid having a gun...move to Vancouver? I shoot a 50 LB recurve bow which is almost enough weight to hunt (legally you only need to shoot a 40LB bow) with, but really...using a bow in a bear rush situation doesn't seem to make sense to me.

I DO NOT own a gun!
But I am about to get my 'PAL' and buy a 22 long barrel, a shotgun of some sort, and a hunting rifle. I was kind of hoping someone here might be able to assist me in what to buy. But the knee-jerk reactions to the gun thread got it closed...Next autumn I plan on hunting elk and deer to supplement my families diet.

I can really relate to your post Lance. Having lived in a rural area where a mountain lion was killing sheep in their pen next to our bedroom and having an infant, I wanted a gun for protection.

We do not own a gun yet are thinking of purchasing a shot gun because of all of the wild pigs getting to our other animals.

Guns have their purpose. Hopefully one would not ever have to use a gun to kill another person. For myself, I would not want to ever be in that type of situation because of the karma factor and because each time we kill we lose a little bit of ourselves. Yet we currently live in a violent world. In my heart is another world I seek. This is the world where a gun is unknown and where we see each other as brothers and sisters. It is a radiant zone.

[arcora]

I am not trying to persuade anyone to abandon their own value system.

What works for one, may not work for others. If you believe it unconscionable to kill for any reason whatsoever - that is your perogative and I wish you the best of luck.

Am I not allowed the same consideration?

I have thought about various scenarios and my likely responses.

If I have food and someone is hungry - I will invite them to sit down and eat with us.

If they insist on taking all of the food that will keep my family fed - I will ask them to leave.

If they threaten me or my family for said food (and have the means to carry out the threat) I will shoot them dead.