Need advice - How to live Non-Electrically

[doodah]

Looking for creative ideas here!

Here's my thinking ... I grew up non-electric until age 11, so I know how they did it in the old days. However, I want to get away from all things like propane, kerosene, gas, oil, etc., all harmful products.

I've solved most of the heating/cooking problems, but I haven't solved light. Candles -- old fashioned way, made from beeswax, but that's HONEYBEES, in short supply. New way is Parafin, but that's an oil derivative, petroleum. I don't want to support that industry in any way.

So that leaves? Anybody with true alternative energy ideas out there?

Thanks! Peace to all on this beautiful planet.

[sunflower]

Hi, I haven't got too much experience with alternative energy. The bad ice storm we experienced here in Quebec a few years ago motivated me quite a bit, however!

We improved our fire place for starters so now the new insert will spread heat thruout the house.

We have been looking at portable solar panels that would connect to a 12 volt battery and then by using an inverter we would have electric power for small appliances eg laptop, small fridge, battery recharging etc. We need to consult with a friend who is an electrician to see is this is a viable way to proceed. And that's as far as we have gotten so far. Diane

[Dantheman62]

Looking for creative ideas here!

Here's my thinking ... I grew up non-electric until age 11, so I know how they did it in the old days. However, I want to get away from all things like propane, kerosene, gas, oil, etc., all harmful products.

I've solved most of the heating/cooking problems, but I haven't solved light. Candles -- old fashioned way, made from beeswax, but that's HONEYBEES, in short supply. New way is Parafin, but that's an oil derivative, petroleum. I don't want to support that industry in any way.

So that leaves? Anybody with true alternative energy ideas out there?

Thanks! Peace to all on this beautiful planet.
Hey D, I went to google and there's all kinds of natural wax candles, including vegetable wax,soy wax, and palm oil wax, if you're in a windy area than a wind turbine is great for free elec., or if you're near a river than a water turbine is great free elec., just my 2 cents! PEACE

[Blufire77]

Turn out the lights???!!! :roll1:

Sorry . . . . couldn't resist . . . . I really just wanted to use the little rolling laughing face.

[mikey]

go solar...

peace
bananaman

[Jamie]

Has anyone mentioned steam power? I think that would be a viable way of charging batteries in order to have light.

You could use it as your main source of generating power, or just as a backup to your Solar/Hydro/Wind set-up.

Jay

[doodah]

Thanks for all the suggestions so far!

Blufire - I do turn out the lights! A lot of the time I live by the sun, go to bed early all that. However, I'm realizing that by "lights" I'm really also meaning (maybe) computer, and some small electrical devices.

Diane and Bananaman -- Can't afford to go major solar, but you just reminded me that my niece took two small portable solar panels with her to Kenya when she was in the Peace Corps and living in a native village. I'll have to find out from her if they worked or not.

The battery part of the solar setup, to store electricity, isn't very much to my liking, but I guess that's where the technology is today in that regard.

I'm going to look into bicycle-recharging of batteries, too. I think I saw something about that somewhere.

More thoughts welcome here!

[sunnyrap]

I heard a story online, allegedly based on fact, about an archeological group that discovered an ever-burning lamp inside one of the pyramids. When they opened the tomb, they discovered the lamp inside, which was in a closed container and had no apparent source of fuel/energy. This is evidently a bit of technology that has been discovered and utilized in the planet's distant past, and since lost. Perhaps a talented researcher and remote viewer in this group could try to scout that out?

[doodah]

Has anyone mentioned steam power? I think that would be a viable way of charging batteries in order to have light.

You could use it as your main source of generating power, or just as a backup to your Solar/Hydro/Wind set-up.

Jay

Steam -- Am willing to think about it, but I don't live near any hot springs. Energy is needed to make steam -- fire maybe. How would this work?

[doodah]

I heard a story online, allegedly based on fact, about an archeological group that discovered an ever-burning lamp inside one of the pyramids. When they opened the tomb, they discovered the lamp inside, which was in a closed container and had no apparent source of fuel/energy. This is evidently a bit of technology that has been discovered and utilized in the planet's distant past, and since lost. Perhaps a talented researcher and remote viewer in this group could try to scout that out?

That's it, sunnyrap! That's what I (and everyone on this planet!) is looking for! I'll have to start another thread, calling remote viewers! Thanks!

[sunnyrap]

There are two issues I'm keen on solving for myself: getting my little Tracker converted to use hydrogen fuel (Texas is just too big to be stuck without wheels!); and, having a generator that also runs on water.

Re: water-for-fuel
There is a bewildering variety of material on this topic and I'm no engineer. I did download a set of plans for a device you could build yourself and attach to your fuel system that supplemented your gasoline with hydrogen for cleaner, more efficient fuel power, but that had some drawbacks, imo. Not the least of which if there is a total break in the gasoline supply, expensive or not. I'd much rather go for the full hydrogen solution. However, I've read that you have to tweak your onboard computer to not respond to fuel sensors that shut down the engine if they sense improper fuel mixture. If there are any engineer types or even car geeks in the group--I'd sure like all the input on this project I can get. Maybe we can put together a library of links with notes on the various set ups/plans available?

Re: generators.
Someone on Avalon had posted a link to a YouTube that demo'd the zero-point generator (i.e., it runs on 'no' energy, once the battery gets the generator motor started). Tremendous concept, but I sure can't afford the $20,000 pricetag for that kind of machine, myself (but I bet a municipality could, forced to supply their own citizen's power--hmmm!). But waxing self-reliant appeals to me, so a hydrogen generator or magnetic type that George Green demo'd seem the least problematical for that. Any of you given this some in depth thought?

.

[doodah]

Also, considering that there may be electromagnetic changes on this planet, that will possibly disable all electrical devices, it would be good to be thinking of -- not ways to generate electricity -- but more along sunnyrap's thought, things that work entirely in a different way. (So forget my mention of computers and small electrical devices!) The thinking is evolving as I read these various posts. Good brainstorming.

[Blufire77]

Sorry for being a smarty pants. Actually Solar, wind, steam are all valid.

Do look up info on the bicycle generated stuff. I have a couple websites on this and will look them up,

The bike is attached to an alternator (car type) which in turns generates the battery. I wanted a couple of these especially in an bunker/shelter situation as a form of pragmatic energy producing exercise. Also attach to treadmills . . . which could also serve to exercise your dog! :sweatdrop:

[Blufire77]

Don't forget hydro-power. If you live near a stream, creek or river. Great source or never ending motion.

[doodah]

Don't forget hydro-power. If you live near a stream, creek or river. Great source or never ending motion.

Hydro -- if the stream is big enough and has enough force behind the water! I do live near a stream and at first thought I would build a waterwheel, but the stream isn't deep enough and doesn't move fast enough. Any thoughts on this?

And yes you were a smartypants, but you seem like a good soul nonetheless.

TO ALL: I have to go now, but will check back in later. Thanks for the discussion. It's getting the brain cells moving!

[333mark333]

Up here where i am WIND POWER is the way to generate, but if we have an electromagnetic spike then????????????? maybe we will have to base our lives around the rise and fall of the sun!

[Peace of Mine]

We live quite well now "off the grid" on our boat. We utilize wind and solar to run lights, tvs, fans, laptops, refrigeration, whatever our power needs. Yes, as long as it is available, I LIKE my laptop with PC Card that lets me pick up the internet wherever we roam.

We installed a keel-kooled refrigerator that uses 40 amps a day. It holds a month's supply of veggies, breads, dairy, whatever. Granted, i had to get used to a top-load. No big deal.

For lights, we found LED flashlights for $1.00 and converted them to excellent reading/ambient lighting. There are now lots available, more expensive, but very workable for almost NO power. We searched out low-amp fans, which keep us cool even in the high-humidity of SW Florida.

For cooking, we still use LPG. We carry a 3-month supply. We built a solar oven, but it needs constant tweaking. Jacques Fresca (The Venus Project) used prisms to focus sunlight for an efficient cooker, but we haven't figured out how to do this yet. We truly don't need cabin heat or air-conditioning.

We use 2 8-D AGM Glassmat batteries to store energy. Runs everything we need. Wind power recharges much faster, but is not as dependable as slow, steady solar. Occasionally, we have to top the batteries with our diesel generator. It takes 1/4 gal of diesel to recharge full. We use an e-meter to keep up with everything. J installed everything himself, and we both understand how to keep our power supply running smoothly. (Even when I stay on Avalon way too many hours lately!!)

The ideal solution is a "free energy" generator. We have seen one work, but none of the models have ever made it to market. They ARE available, and they DO work. SOON??? We wanted to build a magnet motor generator, but couldn't find plans that were reliable enough to justify the cost.

The waterfall/hydropower system is pretty complicated to install, and doesn't give much power, regardless of the size of the wheel or amount of water. You lose a lot through the electric lines to reach your power supply.

It is very liberating, to be so self-sufficient. Our budget went down 75% when we cut the docklines. We use our bikes and kayaks to provision, can get to excellent farmer's markets within "sail" power, spend the rest of the time enjoying a more natural environment.

[doodah]

Dear Peace,

Sounds wonderful! Just a quick question, just passing through again, will be back later, but what is a keel-cooled refrigerator?

[bosr]

Go here to learn how to inexpensively build your own electric generating solar panel(s). He includes links for the electronics as well as a DIY wind generator.

http://www.mdpub.com/SolarPanel/index.html

Enjoy!

[Katherine]

Hi all.......

Interesting thread......I know I read somewhere (or was it in a flyer) that either IKEA or Canadian Tire are actually selling small solar panels. Does anyone know about this? Are they worth the money? As I recall they were fairly inexpensive - so again....are they worth it? OR do you get what you pay for? :thumbdown:


Any thoughts?

K

[doodah]

Hi again ... just checking in quickly to see what's new. OK, collecting enough references here to keep me deep in research for a while!

Must reiterate ... solar, wind, steam, water... we talk about them here that they will generate electricity to drive our currently existing electrical devices. At best, I am now looking at those alternate means as a temporary jump off the grid ... until there is an electromagnetic pulse when all the electrical devices will be useless, as well as the solar, wind, steam, water set up to drive them.

BIG JUMP needed here! Truly alternate! No electricity or electrical devices.

I'm not saying I won't go to solar if I can or any of the others ... as an in-between thing, but I don't think it will be permanent.

Going back to early industrial times, there was mechanical power ... like water-driven mills for grinding grain (the same kind of mechanical power horses or oxen provide when they walk round and round in circles and grind grain in older cultures, turning two stones with the grain in between). Early power in America was steam from burning something ... coal, wood.

We're thinking here that solar, wind, etc. will provide electricity.

Any thoughts about what else it could do? Water can provide direct mechanical energy, as in the mill. Wind can also provide direct mechanical energy, as in lifting water out of the ground (windmills), no electricity involved. Solar can cook directly, no electricity involved.

Still haven't solved the problem of providing light! So far, it's either candles or some form of electric, or the mysterious globe found in the pyramids that we need some remote viewers to take a look at to see how it works.

Also, we've engaged so far three of the four denser elements: water, fire, and air. Earth energy could be geothermal, but I don't live near any hot springs.

[Baggywrinkle]

Our two largest challenges are pumping water and
refrigeration.

My preferred solutions would be a water tower, a steam
engine, and biogas.

I'm aware of several dairy operations that generate huge
amounts of biogas and convert it into electricity. There
is a Hutterite community in Northern Alberta that sells
excess biogas generated electricity to the local grid.

As far as lighting goes. We've started using strontium based phospholuminescent tape

Check this out.

http://download.101com.com/wa-mcv/ohs/images/feb3/o23exit5%5B1%5D.jpg

http://www.identi-tape.com/phosphor.htm
These techniques can work. No pie in the sky here, and
steam is tried and true; a perfected technology.

[Aisuru Chiku]

I hope this will help!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6E41vFvPE48&feature=related

[Dantheman62]

Hey D, check my post again up top, there's all kinds of natural candles so light isn't a problem, there's plenty of hand crank pumps out there so water isn't a problem, use wood for heat and cooking so the only thing your missing is refrigeration, which we never had any way in the old days, so there you go!

[Baggywrinkle]

http://www.habmigern2003.info/biogas/Baron-digester/Baron-digester-Dateien/image005.jpg

http://www.habmigern2003.info/biogas/Baron-digester/Baron-digester-Dateien/031905_BFC_BF.JPG

http://www.habmigern2003.info/biogas/Baron-digester/Baron-digester-Dateien/10m3_HDPE1.jpg



Otherpower home built steam powered generator video clip. With an appropriate battery bank you
would run this once a week to charge. Of course it could get as big and fancy as you can dream.
(solar, wind, hydrogen, ect ect ect) You could also run pump jacks or air compressors with this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xksDjfLbcQ0

[333mark333]

Our two largest challenges are pumping water and
refrigeration.

My preferred solutions would be a water tower, a steam
engine, and biogas.

I'm aware of several dairy operations that generate huge
amounts of biogas and convert it into electricity. There
is a Hutterite community in Northern Alberta that sells
excess biogas generated electricity to the local grid.

As far as lighting goes. We've started using strontium based phospholuminescent tape

Check this out.

http://download.101com.com/wa-mcv/ohs/images/feb3/o23exit5%5B1%5D.jpg

http://www.identi-tape.com/phosphor.htm
These techniques can work. No pie in the sky here, and
steam is tried and true; a perfected technology.

That tape looks interesting- may use that up here. Thanks :)

[Baggywrinkle]

That tape looks interesting- may use that up here. Thanks :)

You can also find it as paint. This is a technology waiting
to happen. Entire floors or walls of this stuff. They are
making fireman's plastic hardhats with it to make them
easy to see in a smoke filled room.

In the first five minutes it is almost bright enough to read
by. Then it lingers visibly to the night adjusted eye for
12 hours or more.

We live in the country. Pitch black at night. We put
three small tabs of tape on each of our stairs. At night
it lights up like an airport runway. Fumbling in the dark
for the light switch? Never again.

Ever lost your car in a dark parking lot?

http://www.autospectator.com/uploads/Smart/2007/smart42_lumines.jpg

[Operator]

You can also find it as paint. This is a technology waiting
to happen. Entire floors or walls of this stuff. They are
making fireman's plastic hardhats with it to make them
easy to see in a smoke filled room.

In the first five minutes it is almost bright enough to read
by. Then it lingers visibly to the night adjusted eye for
12 hours or more.

We live in the country. Pitch black at night. We put
three small tabs of tape on each of our stairs. At night
it lights up like an airport runway. Fumbling in the dark
for the light switch? Never again.


Hi,

It sounds very powerful but I was wondering if strontium isn't a radio active isotope ? So I am not sure if it's completely
safe for your health and the environment. Is there any info coming along with this product ?

I was also wondering how the steam generator was powered ... the clip does not show what it used as fuel.

A steam powered generator may work very well in my case. There's lots of bio mass waste to burn in close vicinity.
And I have created a parabolic mirror once to boil water using solar power. Very effective ... you don't even need that much sunlight.

Cheers

[Operator]

B.t.w. Baggywrinkle,

Were you talking about a water tower before ?

I may have an idea for you:
if you vaporize water using whatever fuel you have available or the solar power I just mentioned in my previous post
it will rise upward by itself. Then you condense it on a higher level ....
That may work to lift water a couple of feet up

Cheers

[NorthernSanctuary]

The Canadian Tire solar panels rust around the terminal contacts and don't last. Their products are too cheap.

Steam engines are a last alternative to generate electricity from burning wood. LED lighting is the most efficient; they are expensive now, but lasts for many years, may be decades (tens of thousands of hours). Solar panel breakthroughs will eventually reduce the cost, but the pole shift scenario will cover the sun for years; the same senario will give lots of rain, so hydro would be good where you have changes in elevation. The ZPE device is the answer if we can find the solution before the SHTF.

[Peace of Mine]

Most refrigeration systems require a condensing unit that throws off the heat. The keel-kooled unit is installed underneath the boat so that the heat disipates in the water. The colder the water, the more efficient the unit. Normal boat refrigeration systems have two pumps. One cools the unit by pumping water into the boat. One pumps refrigerant through the system. Two pumps take a lot of power.

With a keel-kooled unit, the compressor is the only pump. It pumps refrigerant through the keel-kooler, keeping the heat outside, thus increasing efficiency AND no need for water inside the boat. Much safer, no leaks, no sinking the boat.

We built a chest-type refrigerator, highly insulated, or you could choose a large unit sold through Boater's World that holds ice for up to a week. You mount the Fridg-O-Boat unit inside the box. Again, a DIY project. J can work on it and troubleshoot, a major benefit. This is, of course, a 12V set-up. It could be used with 24 V.

If you had running water, or a pond, nearby, you could use this technology on land. We put the unit in a bucket of water with a small amount of fresh water going in before we could install it underneath. Worked fine. It provides excellent refrigeration for very little power.

We have seen units that utilize the earth in a similar way. (Installed underground where the temperature remains at a constant cooler temperature)

DON'T FORGET LED LIGHTS! This is space-ship technology that continues to improve. Takes so little power, it hardly registers on the e-meter.

[Baggywrinkle]

The two compounds in these long acting photoluminescent
pigments are strontium and europium. They are not radioactive and are cousins to the luminescent zinc oxide
of our youth. These are much brighter and longer lived then the zinc compounds.


http://www.hylinesafety.com/images/280_EN-GW-1.gif

examples of products using these compounds. Move your mouse over the photos in the link below

http://www.ez-bright.co.jp/en/products/products.html

Any source of heat will make steam. That engine will run
on government paperwork! My train of thought would
be to use biogas (methane) generated from decomposing
organic matter. True sustainable permaculture in action.
This would be best done at a community level rather than an individual level. Think city sewage plant. The methane is there waiting to be utilized. On a farm using
the already available manure/humanure which must be
disposed of anyway, is also highly viable. The process produces fuel for heating
and highly valuable compost for crops. It is also independent of centralized control

Refrigeration.

An already perfected technology exists using ammonia
as the refrigerant. Any heat source; kerosene, propane,
natural gas, biogas, heats the ammonia and starts
the cooling cycle. There are no moving parts!

http://home.howstuffworks.com/refrigerator5.htm

I have lusted for a propane refrigerator like this one
made by the Amish

http://www.propanerefrigerator.com/

but they are not mass produced, and are therefore very
expensive (2-3000 dollars). Their consumption of propane/kerosene is also fairly dear. The second issue
could be circumvented by using one configured for natural gas and piping home made biogas into it. Voila!
Sustainable refrigeration that will last as long as your
livestock produce manure!

Once again, this technology would best be implemented
at a community level. Aspects of the technology are time intensive - you don't fire up a steam engine and just
walk away and leave it. It needs watching and tending. In a radiant zone community this would be one of the many regular chores to be done to make a community work.

[doodah]

THANKS EVERYBODY! many great suggestions here.

I am at a disadvantage in having an old computer that cannot handle youtube ... so, those who gave youtube references ... do you have any other link to the same material? Something that could be read, maybe?

Dantheman - Thanks for your post. I'm still thinking about all this ... OK you stock up on candles, then you use them up. Remember those Medieval Cathedrals that had thousands of candles burning? How many candle-makers did it take to light by candles? Point being ... how do you make candles from vegetable oil, after you can't buy them anymore? Old cultures used oil lamps made from stone that burned animal fat.

For that matter, how would you make vegetable oil anyhow? (one of the great mysteries) :tears:

Baggywrinke - I've read about the photoluminescent paints. These are a nano product, as I understand it, but will have to do more research. There are paints now that will deodorize your house! That's nano too. Any nano is very scary as far as I'm concerned ... most of our technology has given with one hand and taken with the other, and nobody knows whether any of this stuff is safe in the long haul at the molecular level.

LED lights sounds good. I've read of a guy in Virginia who invented a light that somehow works in a long tube filled (with something ... research needed) that requires that you turn the tube every couple hours to keep the light working. He's probably got a patent on this though!

Peace of Mine -- Thanks for descriptions. You are reminding me about in-ground ... very doable for moderate refrigeration/ in-water also, yes, non-electrically.

I once kept milk fresh for 2 days in the trunk of a car in 90 degree heat by lining a box with newspaper. Which reminds me that books make terrific insulation.

[Carol]

I love this thread! :thumb_yello:

[Peace of Mine]

Where I grew up, a cold mountain spring was utilized as refrigeration, even after electric refrigerators came into common use. My Grandpa built an 8 X 10 block and brick building on top of the spring, which was captured in a trough of concrete that could hold gallons of fresh-made apple cider, or milk when the cows all came in at once, or handle 6 huge watermelons for a family gathering.

There were two parts to our spring. The main spring was damned up in a concrete catchment, maybe a six by six foot area. A concrete walkway was paved to connect to the main building described in the first paragraph.

This was kept super-clean, with a screened-in window and sturdy door. It maintained a constant temperature year-round that would have served as adequate refrigeration.

This temperate rainforest area, with 80+ inches of annual rainfall, is now experiencing a severe drought and record summer temperatures. Snowfall, when I was growing up, was steady and dependable. That has changed drastically over the last few years. I wonder if the Springhouse would be as dependable in future years.

BTW, lots of these ideas are captured in the FOXFIRE series, a journalism class started in my school, that is internationally known. My sister served as the first student editor, and my grandparents are featured in many of the earlier issues. www.foxfire.org Very in-depth articles teach homesteading skills which were passed from one generation to the next.

[doodah]

Thanks, Peace of mIne. I live in what used to be reliable farming country, but rain has definitely become a problem. Last year we had two solid months with no rain, in July and August, in the middle of the growing season. Many farmers couldn't grow enough hay to get their animals through the winter. So, yes, it's getting more difficult in many areas.

I was thinking about my wind-up kitchen timer and my wind-up clock. These work very nicely non-electrically. Is a hand-pump flashlight something similar? Anybody know how hand-pump flashlights work?

Thanks for the Foxfire reference. Many hours of research ahead!

Putting forth positive intent to create a completely dull and boring October.

[TonyB]

There are two issues I'm keen on solving for myself: getting my little Tracker converted to use hydrogen fuel (Texas is just too big to be stuck without wheels!); and, having a generator that also runs on water.

Re: water-for-fuel
There is a bewildering variety of material on this topic and I'm no engineer. I did download a set of plans for a device you could build yourself and attach to your fuel system that supplemented your gasoline with hydrogen for cleaner, more efficient fuel power, but that had some drawbacks, imo. Not the least of which if there is a total break in the gasoline supply, expensive or not. I'd much rather go for the full hydrogen solution. However, I've read that you have to tweak your onboard computer to not respond to fuel sensors that shut down the engine if they sense improper fuel mixture. If there are any engineer types or even car geeks in the group--I'd sure like all the input on this project I can get. Maybe we can put together a library of links with notes on the various set ups/plans available?

Re: generators.
Someone on Avalon had posted a link to a YouTube that demo'd the zero-point generator (i.e., it runs on 'no' energy, once the battery gets the generator motor started). Tremendous concept, but I sure can't afford the $20,000 pricetag for that kind of machine, myself (but I bet a municipality could, forced to supply their own citizen's power--hmmm!). But waxing self-reliant appeals to me, so a hydrogen generator or magnetic type that George Green demo'd seem the least problematical for that. Any of you given this some in depth thought?

.

I am a newbie even to posting on forums, so I hope this is readable. I believe this concerning hydro generators. They are currently showing on you tube and websites how to build one of these, it is very simple. The problem seems to be that they can only create a small amount of brown gas(hydrogen). My thoughts go this way. If a small container that they show in these videos can produce upto 40% of the fuel needed to run a car engine, then building a much bigger container can supply more brown gas. So lets say the containers shown could only realisticly supply 10% ( this is just for example) of the fuel for a 150 horsepower engine. A container 10 times larger could supply 100% of the energy? except that would be to big for a car to carry around. The point I am trying to make is that even if there is a lose of created brown gas pretaining to size of container, you only need to power a 20 horse power engine to supply 100% of the fuel to turn a 200 amp generator, which is more than enough to power a house totally. I guess thats explains my thoughts, I hope it makes sense. Also if the first post stated above was stating that it was to big to be moblie, then he could build it in seires, using mulitable 50 gallon plastic durms, and fill them with water when you reach where ever

[Baggywrinkle]

Compensating for Doodah's video challenged computer:

Here is a link to Other Power's home built steam generator.
http://www.otherpower.com/steamengine.shtml



I also am intrigued by human and animal power.

Maya Pedal is a project to assist electricity challenged folks
in South America. They have done some magnificent work
making human powered machines that do everything from
making smoothies to pumping water

http://www.pedalpower.org/?q=maya_pedal
http://www.mayapedal.org/index.html

http://www.bikeroute.com/BentImagesFolder/MayaPedalbikepump.jpg

Animal powered treadmills are also an alternative

http://blog.makezine.com/dog-treadmill.jpg


The good news is you get the afternoon off.
The bad news is the Captain wants to water ski this morning...
http://is2.okcupid.com/users/140/704/14070528096255816086/mt1133913028.jpg

[Anchor]

The trouble with all these generator ideas are that they are completely off-topic. The OP was about living non-electrically !

[doodah]

True, Anchor, that keeps happening here.

Baggywrinkle, thanks for the reference, photos and humor. A previous post of yours here about a setup for methane production shows pits with black plastic covers. I understand the prinicple in the use of the plastic, but don't want to use anything made from petroleum (ie plastic). The only other non-permeable materials that come to mind are glass, metal, and possibly glazed ceramic. Have you seen methane production using anything else but plastic?

[Shechaiyah]

As in camping, I'll go with kerosene or propane lamps, til we can figure out something else.

Also, better have lots of journal notebooks handy and practice up on your penmanship.

I'm so old that, when I was learning to write cursive in school, we had to use ink-pens and dip them in ink wells. Probably not a bad idea, to have some Luddite technology on hand.


: ) Shech--

[Baggywrinkle]

True, Anchor, that keeps happening here.

Baggywrinkle, thanks for the reference, photos and humor. A previous post of yours here about a setup for methane production shows pits with black plastic covers. I understand the prinicple in the use of the plastic, but don't want to use anything made from petroleum (ie plastic). The only other non-permeable materials that come to mind are glass, metal, and possibly glazed ceramic. Have you seen methane production using anything else but plastic?

The bladder is the simplest technology. It is just a large
balloon. The problem is storing the methane which remains in the gaseous state. The other feasible system
consists of a steel or concrete container in a container.
as the methane builds it pushes the inner container
vertically to the limit of it's travel (Think of a glass inside
a glass). These are low pressure systems easily utilized
by folks like you and me. You start adding compressors
and tanks the price skyrockets rapidly. Not to mention complexity breeds problems.

The beauty of the bladder system is it was designed in
the phillipines for use by third world farmers. It is inexpensive and will provide cooking gas for a family
easily. With some planning all of your basic needs can be provided from this one source of energy -
Even lighting! At my home we use petromax kerosene mantle lanterns and one propane mantle lantern
At the web site below Dr David Fulford has a biogas lamp design which uses the mantles in the same
fashion as the lamps mentioned above. If you are a smallholder all you need is a few pigs, chickens,
and cows and no qualms about shoveling poop. Addng a steam engine you would have the means to
pump water into a water tower using a pump jack AND compress the biogas into tanks.

Paul Harris at the University of Adelaide has been all
over it.
http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/

[MMe M]

You are much appreciated!~ I find myself contemplating methane every day lately. We all produce it and it sits there in the ground due to idiot regulations by local governments. People with dairy farms are using it to heat, power and also supply their neighbors with energy. Its the best alternative presentlyy I think. As long as were alive, we will be making it and so why not put it to use?


To the guy with the hydrogen idea, Its excellant but you must remember that hydrogen causes metals to harden, therefore making them brittle. I am not a molecular scientist but you can look it up. Its on this level that it hapens. The computer will adjust after so many miles I am told. Something like the change between ethanol and petrol.

[doodah]

Thank you, Baggy, once again. I understand the principle. But are those bladders made of plastic? Rubber? What?

Thanks.

[MMe M]

The bladder is the simplest technology. It is just a large
balloon. The problem is storing the methane which remains in the gaseous state. The other feasible system
consists of a steel or concrete container in a container.
as the methane builds it pushes the inner container
vertically to the limit of it's travel (Think of a glass inside
a glass). These are low pressure systems easily utilized
by folks like you and me. You start adding compressors
and tanks the price skyrockets rapidly. Not to mention complexity breeds problems.

The beauty of the bladder system is it was designed in
the phillipines for use by third world farmers. It is inexpensive and will provide cooking gas for a family
easily. With some planning all of your basic needs can be provided from this one source of energy -
Even lighting! At my home we use petromax kerosene mantle lanterns and one propane mantle lantern
At the web site below Dr David Fulford has a biogas lamp design which uses the mantles in the same
fashion as the lamps mentioned above. If you are a smallholder all you need is a few pigs, chickens,
and cows and no qualms about shoveling poop. Addng a steam engine you would have the means to
pump water into a water tower using a pump jack AND compress the biogas into tanks.

Paul Harris at the University of Adelaide has been all
over it.
http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/

But you can easily use a generator made to run on propane with this gas. The up front cost would be a lil high but telling the power company to go to the devil would be worth every blasted penny!!!! Much cheaper than solar set up costs.

[Operator]

Refrigeration.

An already perfected technology exists using ammonia
as the refrigerant. Any heat source; kerosene, propane,
natural gas, biogas, heats the ammonia and starts
the cooling cycle. There are no moving parts!


Thanks Baggywrinkle,

This is something I needed badly. I am in the tropics, we have a lot of heat here and need refrigeration.
Of course my heat source will be solar power !

I read the article but still have to figure out how the 'separator' works. But that's the fun part ... :lmfao:

We have tons of heat (until a polar shift :shocked:) here to produce tons of cold air ... I like that, knew it was possible
but did not practically create that yet.

Cheers

[sakuna]

Bioluminescence is probably the most efficient naturally occurring light source.
Think fireflies. In NZ we have an insect commonly known as a glow worm (arachnicampa luminosa) or cannabilistic maggots with shiny **** which is more accurate as they are larvae & not actually a worm. They predominately live in dark, damp, & drafty areas specifically caves, where they spin vertical silk feeding lines to catch their prey, utilising their glowing excrement as a lure.
My point is, that in areas heavily populated with glow worms, they collectively emit enough light that, you could almost read a book. Perhaps you could breed a colony then populate your living areas as required.
Impractical i know, but i thought it worth mentioning.
A couple of free energy hydraulic devices for consideration/research are the self acting water ram & the vortex generator, both can provide mechanical advantage in numerous applications and/or generate electricity.
Best regards

[Baggywrinkle]

But you can easily use a generator made to run on propane with this gas.

You would do far better to order your generator set up
for running natural gas. Propane requires larger jets since
it is a larger molecule than methane.

When you start burning the biogas in an internal combustion engine you need to scrub it first to remove
contaminants that corrode engines such as sulphur. It isn't a big deal but it is an extra step with extra complexity and another chance for adding problems.
This is why this idea is best suited for the community level with dedicated workers tending the process.

At the level of the small holding farmer (me) the best
solution is burn the gas directly and utilize the heat for
getting work done. Remember the KISS principle. The
goal is simplicity. Theoretically elegant, technically simple. We are, after all, neo-luddites. Occam's razor
rules.

[doodah]

Thank you, Baggy, once again. I understand the principle. But are those bladders made of plastic? Rubber? What?

Thanks.


In answer to this question, I scroogled "methane bladders". Here's what I found:

Suitable materials for the bladder include reinforced gco-membrane materials such as XR-5® 8130 or XR-3® 8228 reinforced geo-membranes available from the Seaman Corporation, Wooster, Ohio, and reinforced geo-membranes from Cooley

geosynthetics

Geomembranes are made of various materials. Some common geomembrane materials are Polyvinyl Chloride (PVC), High-Density Polyethylene (HDPE), Low-Density Polyethylene (LDPE) and Polypropylene (PP).


"Polyvinyl Chloride (PVC). General Info. Center for Health, Environment and Justice: PVC: The Poison Plastic -- The Campaign for Safe, Healthy Consumer ..." www.ejnet.org/plastics/pvc/

High-Density Polyethylene (HDPE) -- "High-Density Polyethylene(HDPE) or PolyEthylene High-Density (PEHD) is a polyethylene thermoplastic made from petroleum. It takes 1.75 kilograms of ..." en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDPE

Polypropylene (PP) -- polypropylene-pp petrochemicals, www.commodityonline.com/commodities/petrochemicals/polypropylene-pp.php

All these products are made from petroleum, which, according to my hundreds of hours of research, is probably the most poisonous substance on this planet -- not something I really want to take with me into the future. This gives pause for thought.

[sunnyrap]

Reading your post tweaked my brain about something I read sometime back...about dual, even triple sources of energy generating. In a boat, you have solar, wind and hydro. Meaning, you can have a series of small paddlewheels churning up electricity and sending it to your batteries even as the wind moves the vessel and the solar panels suck down energy...

I just listened to Cliff (C2C HalfPastHuman interview) say he was building a big boat. 3/4 of the planet is water. Plenty of all energy sources out there, and food, and water (assuming you have desalination capability).

Not sure any of this matters if you get caught in a tsunami...how do you guys propose to handle big bad weather, of which there is plenty forecast?

Just thinking out loud, here...

[sunnyrap]

most photoluminesent problems have to store light from another lightsource--is this tape that type or is it truly self-luminating, like the chemical filled straws that are sold at fairs? (and they fizzle out after a while...)

[MMe M]

You would do far better to order your generator set up
for running natural gas. Propane requires larger jets since
it is a larger molecule than methane.

When you start burning the biogas in an internal combustion engine you need to scrub it first to remove
contaminants that corrode engines such as sulphur. It isn't a big deal but it is an extra step with extra complexity and another chance for adding problems.
This is why this idea is best suited for the community level with dedicated workers tending the process.

At the level of the small holding farmer (me) the best
solution is burn the gas directly and utilize the heat for
getting work done. Remember the KISS principle. The
goal is simplicity. Theoretically elegant, technically simple. We are, after all, neo-luddites. Occam's razor
rules.

Ok natural gas. I was a little confused as to which one is most like methane in nature. Everybody uses propane here. We converted our 92+ furnace for propane when it was new and we were installing it. It was simple, just different jets is all we had to change. The only thing I have a problem with is the fact that the ones for residential use arent meant for continuous run, therefore not heavy duty. Im not really sure which way would be the best economically and maintenance wise. Heating water to turn turbines or just buying a continuos run model.

Umm..... ya lost me on the last part but thanks for the info.:thumb_yello:

[Baggywrinkle]

The only thing I have a problem with is the fact that the ones for residential use arent meant for continuous run, therefore not heavy duty. :

No generator is intended for continuous run. Some are
stouter than others. The rule of thumb is you buy the
best you can afford, then use it as little as possible.
So the question becomes how do you store the generated
power. Batteries, water towers, hydrogen, and gasoline
all have one thing in common. They store potential energy for use later when you need it. Your method of
storage depends on the route you take. I wish Henry
or perhaps an engineer were about to explain it better
then I can. Storing the energy for when you need it is
the weak link in the chain. Batteries are okay. Kerosene
is better as a storage medium with a much longer shelf
life. At the moment, storage is the rate limiting step in
my personal scheme of things. So we have settled for
large quantities of kerosene and propane till we can come up with something better.

One really intriguing storage medium is the kinetic battery. This is a flywheel spun at high speed
by your engine. From what I have read, a flywheel the size of a refrigerator buried in the ground
could power your home. There are still technical issues to overcome. Using the earth to store your
energy as in geothermal is another route. But my favorite is Stan Deyo's work based on research by
Henry T Moray. In a nutshell, a tribolumenscent compound turns heat or light into electricity. Stan Deyo is basically talking about using the universe as your storage medium.....I know, I know, way
off topic and absolutely pie in the sky. We would all love to jam a stick into the earth and get all of
our heat light and power from it. {Deep sigh} Biogas steam or wind is real. You can touch it and you can use it right now if you are mechanically clever.



Umm..... ya lost me on the last part but thanks for the info.:thumb_yello:

Just a reference to our personal lifestyle.

[bosr]

Just a thought, but would it be practical to build a still for making alcohol and using that to power your generator and such?

Alcohol Can Be A Gas (http://www.alcoholcanbeagas.com/)

[zorgon]

Looking for creative ideas here1

So that leaves? Anybody with true alternative energy ideas out there?
.

Oil lamps burn brite with vegetable oil :thumb_yello:
But what you have against solar power?

Or do like the old days...

Get up with the Sun, go to bed when it gets dark

[MMe M]

[QUOTE=Baggywrinkle;32570]No generator is intended for continuous run. Some are
stouter than others. The rule of thumb is you buy the
best you can afford, then use it as little as possible.



Weel, actually the military does have continuous run generators with hardened circuits. It just isnt cost effective for me to buy, which is most certainly a contradiction in terms. If I cant afford it, neither should my government.:wink2:

[doodah]

Zorgon -- I have nothing against solar as an intermediate alternate power source. But solar is intended to produce electricity to run current-design electrical devices. If electromagnetic flux on this planet leads to all current-design electrical devices going kaput, then this kind of solar is dead-ended. I'm trying to think beyond that dead-end.

MMe M -- The military does have, I'm pretty sure, just about all the alternative tech we could use here. Whether we'll ever get it is the question. In the meantime, I kind of like the glow worm excrement idea, but we don't have those larvae here in North America, at least not where I live. But maybe a lightning bug farm idea could be developed. As kids we caught them in a jar, but they didn't live very long, and they are seasonal to the summer mating season, so that would require some exploration.

Baggywrinkle -- Tesla was working on the "stick in the ground" universal energy field, free energy, back in the 1920s and all that happened was the military stopped him and used whatever they could of his ideas as weapons. All those alternative-energy people who have been killed in the past 60 years also had free or near-free energy inventions. Maybe some of this will emerge after everything collapses. :original:

Also, remember Leedskallen? The guy who built the "coral castle" in Florida without any kind of machinery except a wooden tower of some kind, lifting enormously heavy blocks of coral by himself, without helpers? He said he had rediscovered the secret of how the pyramids were built, and refused to share any of his research with the military when they approached him. So they didn't get it, but unless somebody can rediscover what he rediscovered (and he did it through research at public libraries!), this secret is lost once again!

[zorgon]

Zorgon -- I have nothing against solar as an intermediate alternate power source. But solar is intended to produce electricity to run current-design electrical devices. If electromagnetic flux on this planet leads to all current-design electrical devices going kaput, then this kind of solar is dead-ended. I'm trying to think beyond that dead-end.

The Life Blood of the Universe is Plasma Energy... it is constantly in 'flux'. It is the source of ALL electrical energy... Just were did you think electricity comes from? Look at a generator on a dam... Water falls down a height... the natural force of gravity (free energy) that simply turns a turbine... this turbine turns a magnet which 'generates' electricity... which we use. But where does this electricity come FROM?

You have seen the power of a lightning bolt... this is PLASMA energy (and yes we call it electricity) but WHERE does the electricity come from?

Water molecules rub together in the air and create friction which generates static electricity... just like when you walk across a carpet.. When there is enough in the air... a small streamer seeks ground... Then the BIG bolt of PLASMA follows the trail up from the ground and you have a tremendous discharge we call lightning (free energy)

Did you know that one side of your house current is the EARTH? That is why its called a 'ground'

Did you know that if you take a simple copper wire... say 12 miles long... and drag it through space at orbital speed of 17,500 MPH you generate electricity the same way you do at the dam? Noving a wire through a magnetic field... Only in the space situation you create a LOT of electricity... so much so that it fried the STS 75 tether and continued generating PLASMA long after it broke free... the most famous continous arc event in mankinds history :biggrin2:

You talk of wanting a free energy device...

TH Moray had the answer... he was refused a patent because he could not explain to the patent clerk WHERE the electricity came from... so was refused
Later his machine was destroyed...

Nikola Tesla had the answer. Few people know him, yet without him your car ignition (tesla coil) would not work and your home electricity would not exist.

He had the answer to wireless power, built an electric motor for a car that used transmitted energy via radio waves... but Westinghouse asked "Where can I put the Meter?" and that was the end of that.

Yet today those same radio waves (radio was invented bt Tesla and stolen by Marconi) cook your food in a microwave... and MIT has announced that they have rediscovered wireless power transmission (Only 100 years later... not bad :bleh:)

Did you know that your body runs on electricity? Wonder why they call blood PLASMA?

Like I said PLASMA is the life blood of the Universe..

See all those beautiful Nebulae out there from Hubble? Those are PLASMA remains of an exploded Star... we know that energy travels forever, or we would not be able to see the stars billions of light years away (and billions of years into the past) so all the energy of every star that ever exploded in the history of the universe is stilll out there waiting for us to wake up and tap it

Anyone that tells you otherwise does NOT have your best interests at heart

:biggrin2:

[zorgon]

Tesla was working on the "stick in the ground" universal energy field, free energy, back in the 1920s and all that happened was the military stopped him and used whatever they could of his ideas as weapons.

Our electricity comes to us through wires and 'returns' to ground...

Tesla's secret is that it works better in reverse :biggrin2:

Tesla himself created the weapon. It is this that cause his problems.. his idea was a beam weapon... a weapon so powerful that it would end all wars... but he forgot that the PTB do not wish to end wars

War clouds were again darkening Europe. On 11 July 1934 the headline on the front page of the New York Times read, "TESLA, AT 78, BARES NEW 'DEATH BEAM.'" The article reported that the new invention "will send concentrated beams of particles through the free air, of such tremendous energy that they will bring down a fleet of 10,000 enemy airplanes at a distance of 250 miles..." Tesla stated that the death beam would make war impossible by offering every country an "invisible Chinese wall."

http://www.pbs.org/tesla/ll/ll_wendwar.html

[zorgon]

He said he had rediscovered the secret of how the pyramids were built, and refused to share any of his research with the military when they approached him. So they didn't get it, but unless somebody can rediscover what he rediscovered (and he did it through research at public libraries!), this secret is lost once again!

His secret is encoded in his work at the Castle. It lies in Sacred Geometry and Sonic Levitation.

The ancient esoteric societies will tell you that the Pyramids were built using sound frequencies to levitate the blocks into place. The Tibetan Monks do this with chanting

Before anyone says this is BS and not possible...

Acoustic Levitation Chamber

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94KzmB2bI7s

Warning turn down your volume so you don't float away :bleh:

Ultrasonic Levitation

This one is silent... but shows the level of control possible

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4exO4CuoSU

The Possible coming Pole Shift? Don't worry HAARP will have us covered :biggrin2:

[zorgon]

Candles -- old fashioned way, made from beeswax, but that's HONEYBEES, in short supply. New way is Parafin, but that's an oil derivative, petroleum. I don't want to support that industry in any way.

How about supporting the farmers then?

SOY WAX

http://www.cajuncandles.com/soy-wax.html

[sunnyrap]

Most solutions discussed here are on a personal level. I think it would be more productive to think on a community level. We have an existing setup that has worked quite well. How can your part of the grid be set up to keep giving power to the community? Where's your power coming from now? How can at least a percentage of it be kept up, should be the question, imo. I liked 'Mad Max' movies too, for the adventure of it, but I'd like them to stay interesting movies, not become real life.

[doodah]

Zorgon, thanks. I was referring to the George Green/Bill Deagle/Michael St. Claire statements about electromagnetic disturbances, or changes, which I called "flux" in a non-scientific manner, that would inactivate all currently designed electrical devices, an EMP-type event produced by the movement of our planet through what they are calling "energetic space," or some call a "photon belt", as this planet approaches galactic center.

Right, Leedskallen tapped sound energy. I don't know how the acoustic levitation chamber works, but does it require common era design electrical devices? Leedskallen certainly had electrical power available to him, through the power grid, although I don't know if he used that. Makes me wonder how the Egyptians might have generated the sound they used. Chanting is not a thing I associate with ancient Egyptian culture, but who knows?

The point in discussing Tesla, Leedskallen, and Moray, etc., is to toss around some ideas about whether these non-standard approaches can be used in some way by non-scientific folk like most of us on this thread appear to be. If the grid goes down, and most motors and currently existing electrical devices won't work anyhow no matter how they're powered, I'd like to have some alternatives in place. Methane is an available alternative that can produce heat and light.

Re candles and supporting the farmers: I asked this question further up the thread: You buy up lots of candles and use them up. Then what? How do you make soy wax? I'm not aware that vegetable oils were a common product in earlier cultures, except maybe olive oil. That's why they used lard, animal fat, whale oil, for similar purposes, such as oil lamps. This is still do-able to some extent if animal fat is kept and stored for that purpose.

Sunnyrap: I guess I have been thinking in terms of the smallholder, and that perhaps individual residences having their own sources of power might be more doable than huge power grids in future small communities. Cities will be a problem from every angle.

[Baggywrinkle]

Just a thought, but would it be practical to build a still for making alcohol and using that to power your generator and such?

Alcohol Can Be A Gas (http://www.alcoholcanbeagas.com/)

I've done extensive research in this area and have a ton
of stuff on the topic including the plans to Robert Warren's Charles 803 reflux still.

I've not done anything with it - yet.

Alcohol is just another energy storage medium. It works.
Problem is, it takes energy input from some source to concentrate the ethanol to the point of being useful as
a fuel for an internal combustion engine (E-85 or higher)

This takes heat. Either solar or from some other source.

Biodiesel would make more sense in the long run. I'd do it in a heartbeat if I had 100 acres of rape seed and an oil press.

Instead of going to the trouble of making the ethanol why not just build a woodgas generator. It would take
the same amount of effort and would be functional faster.

Ultimately you are always converting light/heat from the
sun into some other form which is usable by your machines. One day perhaps we can be efficient enough
to use the sun's output directly in an efficient way.

Storing the energy from the sun for when you need it is the key. Hold that thought, and remember the name
Daniel Nocera!

http://www.boston.com/business/articles/2008/08/01/cheap_solar_at_night_mit_may_have_answer/

[Baggywrinkle]

most photoluminesent problems have to store light from another lightsource--is this tape that type or is it truly self-luminating, like the chemical filled straws that are sold at fairs? (and they fizzle out after a while...)

Strontium and europium, along with zinc oxide compounds all store ambient light, then release it over time. The advantage of the first two is the amount of light released and duration of release blow the older zinc compounds out of the water.

Everyone has had a watch with luminous hands. It was
great for perhaps and hour or two, then barely visible.
The new compounds are BRIGHT all night long
to the night adjusted eye.

Strontium and europium are not self luminating and are not radioactive like
tritium or radium.

[whitecrow]

Consider building a Minto wheel. You can Google this...here's a site with good info: http://www.eagle-research.com/fenergy/gravwhl/minto/minto1.html

This would make a great community project. Minto wheels turn slowly but develop incredible torque which is multiplied as the diameter of the wheel is increased. There is at least one YouTube video of a Minto wheel in operation, however this is a sloppily-built wheel that barely functions.

The secret, it appears to me, is to determine the optimum number of flasks at the circumference, and to pay close attention to the bearings and transmission that will convert torque to power. Not a perpetual motion machine, but close.

[granny]

Thanks, Peace of mIne. I live in what used to be reliable farming country, but rain has definitely become a problem. Last year we had two solid months with no rain, in July and August, in the middle of the growing season. Many farmers couldn't grow enough hay to get their animals through the winter. So, yes, it's getting more difficult in many areas.

I was thinking about my wind-up kitchen timer and my wind-up clock. These work very nicely non-electrically. Is a hand-pump flashlight something similar? Anybody know how hand-pump flashlights work?

Thanks for the Foxfire reference. Many hours of research ahead!

Putting forth positive intent to create a completely dull and boring October.


Terrific thread

Instead of "wind up" for lights and radios ... think "crank"
I don't have crank lights, but do have shake lights ... some better than others, but the crank radio is great.

... am doing same as above

Granny

[MMe M]

Zorgon -- I have nothing against solar as an intermediate alternate power source. But solar is intended to produce electricity to run current-design electrical devices. If electromagnetic flux on this planet leads to all current-design electrical devices going kaput, then this kind of solar is dead-ended. I'm trying to think beyond that dead-end.

MMe M -- The military does have, I'm pretty sure, just about all the alternative tech we could use here. Whether we'll ever get it is the question. In the meantime, I kind of like the glow worm excrement idea, but we don't have those larvae here in North America, at least not where I live. But maybe a lightning bug farm idea could be developed. As kids we caught them in a jar, but they didn't live very long, and they are seasonal to the summer mating season, so that would require some exploration.

Baggywrinkle -- Tesla was working on the "stick in the ground" universal energy field, free energy, back in the 1920s and all that happened was the military stopped him and used whatever they could of his ideas as weapons. All those alternative-energy people who have been killed in the past 60 years also had free or near-free energy inventions. Maybe some of this will emerge after everything collapses. :original:

Also, remember Leedskallen? The guy who built the "coral castle" in Florida without any kind of machinery except a wooden tower of some kind, lifting enormously heavy blocks of coral by himself, without helpers? He said he had rediscovered the secret of how the pyramids were built, and refused to share any of his research with the military when they approached him. So they didn't get it, but unless somebody can rediscover what he rediscovered (and he did it through research at public libraries!), this secret is lost once again!

Ill just adress my dumbed down glow worm answer. The government auctions surplus equipment all the time, hence I wouldnt have made the statement without seeing one online. It was not near enough to me logistically to be feasible and still not cheap enough but a girl can dream, cant she? As for the glow worms, we have them here in Michigan and ill send you some of their leavings as soon as you say where. I hear they glow best when left on a door step and set on fire, but ill leave that part of the experiment up to you.

[Realview]

For daytime use -- there's a guy (I think on You tube) that effectively lights his home but poking clear liter water bottles (full of water and some chlorine) through the roof and letting them hand down half way. Kind of like the solar tubes or sky lights. Not sure what happens when it rains but the water magnifies the light and it works pretty good.

Other than that, I suppose a large mirrors like in the old Egyptian tomb movies or lots of windows or setup your kitchen near the windows or cook outside under a canopy.

At night crank or shake flash lights?

There are various generator systems but they require research, the right skills and time.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=zlinM1wAI5U
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=tKuHFNQCMto

That's all I've got.

[SamWhiteHopi]

Zilch electricity required. Appropriate depending on the climate and water availablity:

Clay Pot Fridge. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pot-in-pot_refrigerator

How to make one. http://www.wikihow.com/Make-a-Pot-in-a-Pot-Refrigerator

Very humid here in the NT of Australia six months of the year. But gonna give this a try during the dry season.

[EarthBowl]

SOLAR Cooking

Here is a link to site that have info on solar ovens. You dont need to buy one... you can use a cardboard box and aluminum foil to make one. no electricity needed!
http://www.solarcooking.org/plans/
If you have the money....... and want a longer lasting option
http://www.eartheasy.com/sun_oven.htm

I think you could make a more permanent oven using that silver (aluminun?) flashing they use on roofs...

[Carmen]

My family and friends are planning to build a mini hydro. It will supply three houses and the excess will be fed back into the national grid and we be paid for what we feed back into the grid. Hopefully this will pay for the scheme and for maintenance. My house is the only one that is on the grid currently. I also have to rearrange my house to make it more energy efficient.

Cheers

Carmen

[Carol]

A well know chef told me about this book which I ordered from amazon. The author of this book lives in Florida and was without electricity for weeks.

The Storm Gourmet: A Guide to Creating Extraordinary Meals Without Electricity (Paperback) $9.95

This book proves that, with a little planning and minimal effort, you can eat surprisingly well during power outages. In hurricane season, this book is a crucial resource. It can be used for any emergency or anytime you are without power. And you can use this book for quick, easy meals anytime, especially for camping or for quick summer meals. You will find shopping lists for creating the ultimate emergency pantry; more than 70 recipes using nonperishable and shelf-stable food items; suggested menus for quick, well-balanced meals; a practical guide to growing a storm-proof herb garden; advice, tips, and anecdotes about weathering the storm. The 12-page color insert displays the colorful and appetizing—yes, gourmet!—meals that can be prepared from canned goods with some fresh ingredients.

The Storm Gourmet: A Guide To Creating Extraordinary Meals Without Electricity is a unique cookbook to creating nutritious gourmet meals without a heat source or refrigeration. A valuable resource for when power is down, when one is without a refrigerator, or simply when one wants to use less energy, The Storm Gourmet is packed with shopping lists for the ideal emergency pantry, more than 70 recipes using nonperishable and shelf-stable food items, suggested menus for balanced meals, a guide to growing a storm-proof herb garden, and tips for weathering storms. Dishes to prepare include Greek-style Bean Salad, Savory Ham with Dijon Cream, Black Forest Tarts, Mock Sangria, and much more. An index for quick and easy reference complements this excellent guide to living healthy and well under simple conditions.


Amazon.com: The Storm Gourmet: A Guide to Creating Extraordinary Meals Without Electricity: Daphne Nikolopoulos: Books

[Carol]

Another couple items worth having on hand are these camper type gas stove and gas oven.

$229.99 Camp Chef Outdoor Camp Oven
Item:IK-518463


This Camp Oven has just what every camp needs to enjoy superior eating in the outdoors – compact size, portability and raw cooking power. Don't let its compact size fool you. The Outdoor Camp Oven features more than 14,000 total BTU of cooking energy. Twin burners and a spacious oven have plenty of power to get your cooking/baking done the way you like it, right there in camp. The unit uses a disposable 1-lb. propane tank, or it can be adapted to use a 20-lb. tank for increased cooking time. The range's dual burners put out a whopping 5,300 BTU per burner. The oven heats at 3,500 BTU per hour with a maximum temperature of 400°F. Two oven racks allow you to cook your main meal and dessert at once. An oven thermometer helps keep heat constant and monitors your meal's cooking progress. The matchless burner igniters mean you won't have to fumble for a lighter or matches while in the field. The stove's folding lid and carry handles were designed with portability in mind, so it's easy to get into and out of camp. Stainless steel construction resists corrosion for years of cooking without problems. Nonstick enamel cooking surface makes cleaning swift and easy with just soap and water.
Top burner dimensions: 12" x 21".
Oven dimensions: 16"W x 11"D x 8-1/4"H.
Weight: 35 lbs.


and

Gas Stove Propane Range Three Burners
Item# 11815
$46.99
http://store.homevillage.us
Dimensions: 31" x 12" x 4"

Three Burners
http://ep.yimg.com/ip/I/yhst-86980199984851_2052_2338

and

Gas Stove Propane Range Three Burners
Item# 11815
$46.99
http://store.homevillage.us
Dimensions: 31" x 12" x 4"

Three Burners
http://ep.yimg.com/ip/I/yhst-86980199984851_2052_2338
Sturdy Construction.
You may use any standard propane tank, you can use a BBQ tank or larger.
Company: Home Village
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