For "Survivors" Eyes Only [Archive] - Old Project Avalon Forum (ARCHIVE)

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historycircus

09-28-2008, 12:00 AM

For those who believe that good vibrations, wishful thinking, positivity, and love are the only things needed in the coming days, this thread is not for you. I wish you no insult, and quite frankly, I hope you all are right. I respect your beliefs, and wish you well in the coming times.

THIS THREAD IS NOT FOR DEBATING THE VIRTUES OF DEPENDING ON ENLIGHTENMENT ALONE FOR THE COMING TIMES. THIS THREAD IS FOR THE EXCHANGE OF IDEAS, PHILOSOPHY, AND PRACTICAL RECOMMENDATIONS FOR THOSE THAT BELIEVE THAT HUMAN SURVIVAL IN THIS PHYSICAL REALITY IS WORTH FIGHTING FOR.

DO NOT POST TO THIS THREAD IF YOU MERELY ARE AGREEING WITH THE INTENT OF THE THREAD - THAT IS NOT A USEFUL CONTRIBUTION. DO NOT POST TO THIS THREAD IF YOU DISAGREE WITH THE INTENT OF THIS THREAD - YOU ARE NOT MAKING A USEFUL CONTRIBUTION. IF SOMEONE DOES ATTEMPT TO DERAIL THIS THREAD BY POSTING AGREEMENT/DISAGREEMENT STATEMENTS, PLEASE, DO NOT POST REPLIES. ESPECIALLY THE DISAGREEMENT STATEMENTS - DO NOT FEED THE NEGATIVITY.

IF YOU WANT TO DEBATE THE MERITS OF THIS THREAD, DO SO IN THE "SURVIVOR MENTALITY" THREAD.

THANK YOU, AND NOW, DOWN TO THE BUSINESS AT HAND:

We all feel it - we wouldn't be here if we didn't. Something is incredibly wrong with the balance of the planet, and with humanity itself. I don't care what you believe in - Planet X, NWO, extraterrestrial manipulation, rise of the Anti-Christ, WHATEVER - we all feel that something is terribly wrong with our state of affairs as a species, and that things will only get worse before they get better. Brothers and sisters with ears to hear, now is the time we must prepare for getting along with the business of living life in a world that may soon care very little about our notions of freedom, love, kindness, etc. In the very spirit of Project Avalon's stated purpose, I offer this thread as a way we can exchange useful, practical information on preparing the communities that we will be a part of for defense. The communities that come together in times of distress will have old, physically and mentally disabled, and young people who will need to be protected from those who would do harm in the name of personal greed and pleasure.

What types of geographic locations might be best for building defendable communities? What type of structures and building materials might we consider? How should we physically arrange these structures - i.e., fort planning versus camoflaged - to maximize safety? What types of firearms pack the most punch - for hunting and defense? How do we attain firearms and ammunition under regulations today that will insure our uninterrupted ownership of them tomorrow? Are there low-tech solutions to combatting high tech intrusions?

These are just some of the questions I wish the posters in this thread to address - I am sure many of you have your own questions. This is the place for them. I have attempted to answer some of those very questions, and have information I wish to share with you all, but I will do so in later posts - if this thread survives. I choose, for the moment, to just start the thread, and see where it goes. If enough of you want to maintain a dialog, it would make me incredibly happy to share my research, insights, and opinions with you.

As a wise man once said, destiny is for those who seek it, fate finds all the rest.

What is your destiny?

Thank you.

Soul Sequence

09-28-2008, 01:07 AM

What types of geographic locations might be best for building defendable communities? What type of structures and building materials might we consider? How should we physically arrange these structures - i.e., fort planning versus camoflaged - to maximize safety? What types of firearms pack the most punch - for hunting and defense? How do we attain firearms and ammunition under regulations today that will insure our uninterrupted ownership of them tomorrow? Are there low-tech solutions to combatting high tech intrusions?

IMO, regardless of the scenario's that play out, be it total economic collapse, massive food shortages/gas/oil...etc..., disease epidemic, pole shift, alien invasion (terrestrial or extraterrestrial).....the government WILL call up military, local and state police, UN troops, other brigades and declare a national state of emergency or Martial law.

So, we need to protect ourselves and our immediate loved ones. This is my purpose for researching all possible scenario's, I want to know who my enemy is. With all this info in mind, I'm not scared, I'm not afraid, what I am is "PREPARED"! It is my belief also that positive energy and light is also a reality BUT, I dont believe that we can change our current timeline, the only thing that will change is the possible scenario's....regardless, the outcome is the same so one needs to take precautions and become aware and prepared.
The time for nuturing and sending positive energies are in conjunction with now but moreso after you are safe in your communities, which I'm sure, alot of us are not in right now. That being said, here are my responses to your three questions.

1. What types of geographic locations might be best for building defendable communities? How should we physically arrange these structures - i.e., fort planning versus camoflaged - to maximize safety?

IMO, keeping all scenario's in mind, you must research all areas within your reach (financially/physically) look at historical data recorded and publically available on the earthquake/flood activity...find an area above sea level on the most solid of rock. You also want to be in a forested/mountanous of sorts area where your family can utilize natural protection and cover. Keep your communities small at first, once you're aware of the current situation, then reach out to grow your community. Reason being is, if something big happens, natural disaster in the area some have chosen, I would say its better not to destroy an entire community being that its out of our control. Also, get out of the cities and into rural areas....Martial Law will affect the major populated areas before they reach out to rural areas, if they will even care about that,....but all research points to that they will be two busy regaining the control, categorizing people in camps, god forbid, killing ones that speak out and protest without question and chipping the others.

2. What type of structures and building materials might we consider?

IMO, unless you are financially "rich", which the governments have made sure the majority of us arent, and you are already construction your communities, then the immediate is to take care of yourself and your immediate family, get to the place you've determined to be safe from most scenario's as much as possible, then first thing is "SHELTER" to protect you from the elements, be it crude in nature, learn about building shelters out of sticks and mud and leaves and branches....this will provide you shelter and cover. Once the aftermath is over, then, by all means, start building the community, my thinking is if you look like a small town or small city, you will be invaded with the general population........DONT BECOME A STATISTIC. Wait till after you can take proper evaluation of the situation.

3. What types of firearms pack the most punch - for hunting and defense? How do we attain firearms and ammunition under regulations today that will insure our uninterrupted ownership of them tomorrow? Are there low-tech solutions to combatting high tech intrusions?

IMO, personally I've never held a gun so I cant answer that, but how I will answer is that their are plenty of methods, though primitive that are just as useful for protection. Yes, you have to use stealth and knowing your surroundings is your best defence for your offence should it come down to protecting your "safe place"

Untill I intuitively feel threatened from my current location, I will stay put and continue to research and follow current events and deeper into all the possible scenario's that may encumber us. I will learn everything I can where I could survive if I were to be thrust out into the forest, naked without anything to start with..............because you dont know what you will have with you when you have to "GET OUT OF DODGE". So, its best to learn how to survive in nature and utilize your natural surroundings.

I look forward to hearing more ideas and thoughts on this post.

Regards and BLessings,
Soul Sequence

historycircus

09-28-2008, 01:09 AM

historycircus

09-28-2008, 01:39 AM

Note to future posters:

Soul Sequence's response is exactly the sort of stuff I'm looking for.

Alexandra

09-28-2008, 01:42 AM

:original:

Carrie1971

09-28-2008, 01:49 AM

I have a question. Who's land do you all think that you are going to settle on? There is no wilderness in this country. Every square inch of land is owned by someone, including the mountains. Do you think that the government is going to let you live on their land? The farmers are the rural community and they certainly aren't giving up their land to some city slicker so he can survive.

Also, do any of you have any concept of the breadth of surveillance capapbility that the government possesses? They can see you driving in your car, see through the earth several miles [forget about burying anything] and much more.

Every survival dream I have had since I was a small child involves people always on the move and being tracked. In a sense, this can be called herding. Consequently, the best mode of survival is to learn to survive from the land. Gardens will be out of the question-too visible, time consuming, and take months to produce anything. Survival communities can then be formed only when it is all over [Climatic changes, wars, aliens, ect.], providing there is still a planet called the earth. This is not negativity. This is reality.

The physical level is not the only thing that will be out of wack, so to speak. This scenario deals with several levels of existance, remember we are dealing with energy and no level is an island unto itself.

In regard to land in the wild.
At this point if you have filed an Active "mine claim" Which in it's own a long paperwork hassel. However if you have a mine claim you do have "rights" to be on "public land" .....

Which brings me to this point.

The U.S. "forest Service" and the "Department of Lands of each state" are huge areas where there is "Nothing" however if you do not "need" a power cord and a phone line to feel alive you can "make it" out in these wild areas.

Be aware that right now in these Northwoods there are many law enforecment agencys who do not let people "camp" on the Government held lands unless you are in a camp ground area and it is open. Again there is the hassel of having a permint or paying a fee.

bosr

09-28-2008, 01:50 AM

Here are a few suggestions...

Do you really want to setup a fortified permanent dwelling or is it better to stay mobile? You may have to act quickly in the event of nuclear, biological, chemical or earth events.

You may want to consider purchasing (cash only) firearms from non-licensed enthusiasts. The machine will not be able to track these purchases through dealer records. Get an assortment. Rifle for longer range. Handgun for self defense. Shotgun for birds. Compound bow with hunting arrows for stealth. Several quality knives.

Keep a minimum of 1,000 rounds of ammunition for each caliber. Hopefully you have several magazines for each firearm.

Buy some subsonic bullets to reduce noise if you think that will be a problem such as drawing attention to yourself while bagging small game for food.

Stock up on the items you need to stay healthy...
Food: anything that will store for a long time veggies, meats, fruits, beans
Water: absolutely can not have too much, get a Berkey water filter
First Aid: bandages, disinfectant, medicine, peroxide, scalpel, needle, thread
Personal Hygeine: deodorant, toothpaste, shampoo, antibacterial soap
Feminine products
Pest/Bug control
Warmth: blankets, sweaters, sleeping bags
Storage: zip lock bags, garbage bags, 5 gal. buckets w/lids etc.
Fire: lighters, matches, cotton balls for kindling, cooking utensils, etc.

Load up on books, cards, games etc. for entertainment.

Make a plan for each scenario you may encounter.
Setup meeting places for your family/friends.
Get some survival manuals.
Buy gas masks, set them up and know how to use them.
Store some fuel.

Seal everything you need to protect from moisture in ziplock bags.

Keep your mouth shut. You don't want to get killed for your supplies.

Don't forget to add some items to make life a little more pleasant like sugar, coffee, treats etc. after you have your basic necessities in place.

Elderly and disabled are best served by keeping them warm, watered, fed and treated with required medicine(s) and equipment. Do your homework on possible medical items that need special care like refrigeration in which case you will need an electrical generator or gas powered refridgerator.

Looking forward to the other submissions.

historycircus

09-28-2008, 01:58 AM

Alexandra,

Good points, but I disagree that there are no wild places left. Satellites can peek anywhere, but there exist many places that whatever is left of negative contol forces won't be paying attention to. There are rural places, even within 80-100 miles of our oldest metropolitan centers, that will not be given much scrutiny by the PTB or roving bands of scumbags. They will be distracted by the mass chaos that will come from the densly populated areas. Chances are, according to some of the theories, the PTB will be more worried about survival themselves. I'm a hard core skeptic, but the existance of underground facilities is something that has recently hit mainstream news outlets - creating, in my mind at least, a confirmation that the PTB know that short term survival concerns are a fruitful avenue of concern.

I don't know where you grew up, but I grew up in the woods, on a major river draining into the Mississippi River. There were places that, over ten years, I was the only human being there. There are wild places left.

Alexandra does highlight a major concern - should we be considering large, fort like structures, or camoflaged structures that can somehow mask the resultant heat signatures (heat signatures will be what gives these hidden communities away from satellite imagery)?

historycircus

09-28-2008, 02:07 AM

Soul Sequence

09-28-2008, 02:12 AM

(heat signatures will be what gives these hidden communities away from satellite imagery)?

It got me thinking when you said this.....I have researched unmanned planes the military uses that can, in reality, its just a remote controlled spy plane taking heat signatures and I'm sure they can also equip to target certain signatures automatically..........this is scary........but something to be prepared for....I'll do some research and see what I can find to combat this if any.

"Technology has its role. Ground-penetrating radar and heat sensors can locate enemy fighters in tunnels or behind walls.

One such device was quietly loaned to rescue teams after the Sept. 11 attacks on the World Trade Center, Pentagon officials said. Called the Tactical Mobile Robot, this small, remote-controlled vehicle, which is still undergoing tests, burrows through walls or concrete and sends back pictures.

Urban operations would begin after sundown, when American optical technology allows its forces to dominate the battlefield while many adversaries are blinded by the night. Most residents are at home, so they do not fill the streets. The streets are the most dangeous place. "

historycircus

09-28-2008, 02:25 AM

Thank you Soul Sequence - that is your homework for this thread. Tell us everything you can about known and hypothosized (and that is where the whistleblower testimony is important) air monitering capabilities. I personally believe that if it is above 50 degrees, it can be seen from the sky in the dark. We will have to watch using open fires . . .

Let us know what you come up with.

Thanks.

Alexandra

09-28-2008, 02:30 AM

:original:

historycircus

09-28-2008, 02:50 AM

Alexandra,

The population push from the cities to the hinterlands will be pretty traumatic - and PTB focus of control will be on the riots in the cities, and the violent exodus out of them. That, however, is a general statement. The 80-100 miles surrounding a city like New York will definately be different from the 80-100 miles surrounding, say, St. Louis, Detroit, or San Francisco. I am from the trans-Mississippi west, and I know of places that few scumbags will ever journey to - it would be too much work to get to them. I'm more worried about my government than I am any group of gang-bangers or bikers.

It is possible to disguise heat signatures - that ability is what made the Vietnamese so formidable. We had satellites in the sky then that could read heat, and it didn't make a difference. We know only a fraction of thier secrets today. There is also "heat background noise" that will work to hiders's advantage.

Will they really care about a few hundred people out in the woods? Will communities that pose them no threat be worth the effort?

bosr

09-28-2008, 03:00 AM

BOSR,

Tell us more! What is the average shelf life of canned goods one can get from, say, a Save-A-Lot, or Aldis? Given the bulk created by long term storage, should potential communites consider a combination of permanent settlement and mobility?

That very question means that all here must "know their region."

Know your region is exactly right. For example: If you live in a metro area you are screwed if you need to scramble and you can't act quickly. Imagine trying to get out of town when every highway is jammed with traffic or blockaded by military. You need to move FAST!

As for shelf life, who knows. Canned goods are known to last well beyond the posted expiry date. Avoid dented cans and get the freshest you can find, preferrably at a high volume grocery store where stock is moved out fast. If nothing happens at all and life goes on normally eat the food before it expires and replace it with fresh items.

You are not limited to canned goods. Buy items such as peanut butter, crackers, honey, dried fruits and trail mix. If you are hungry, you will not object too much if the food is a little stale. Your local Dollar Store is a good source for some of this.

Long term storage foods are available if you can afford it such as Meals Ready to Eat (MREs) and dehydrated foods. These foods have the advantage of being compact and easy to transport. Here are a couple of suppliers that I like...
MRE Depot (http://www.mredepot.com/servlet/StoreFront)
Ready Reserve Foods (http://www.readyreservefoods.com/)

Waterman

09-28-2008, 03:16 AM

Surviving in the cities with financial collapse creating chaos would be very hard.

Soul Sequence

09-28-2008, 03:23 AM

Excellent link and resource, Waterman:thumb_yello:

Here's what I have found at the moment:

where I found it
http://www.defensereview.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=725

and the link to their site.........
http://www.intermat.gr/

and I'm still looking for more natural methods, btw the "cover yourself with mud" method doesnt work, it will for a few seconds, minutes, then your body heat will just heat up the mud.

Regards and Blessings,
Soul Sequence

Waterman

09-28-2008, 03:28 AM

Remember pine needles block IR and other high tech devices. so keep that in mind in the pine forests.

And when using thermal space blankets to cover your heat signature make sure to use one on the ground to keep the ground from showing where you were.

Alexandra

09-28-2008, 03:30 AM

:original:

Soul Sequence

09-28-2008, 03:31 AM

By the way I've been in a situation where helos were looking for me.

If possible locate yourself next to livestock and in particular if there are two of you. Stay up against each other and try to resemble the larger heat signature of a cow. horse, etc...

When we were located we ignited barrels of wood saturated with oil prior to them arriving so that our signatures were hard to find among the burning barrels.

Remember pine needles block IR and other high tech devices. so keep that in mind in the pine forests.

And when using thermal space blankets to cover your heat signature make sure to use one on the ground to keep the ground from showing where you were.

Waterman

wow, excellent info, waterman...........I understand the rest but how do pine needles work?

Alexandra

09-28-2008, 03:32 AM

efields

09-28-2008, 03:47 AM

I am of 2 minds on the FUTURE. One sell the home and get to a community as in Ecuador Panama Uruguay etc.

The other is I'm not sure I want to be in the world with such low awareness and just stay put and be prepared to make the transition to Home. Enjoy the waterfront till we exist no more on this tiny Orb.

My mind flies back and forth. Do I wish to remain in such an asleep period in Human lack of awareness?

Do I want to live in the world of the 'Postman' I'm not so sure I do. My wife of 36 years and I have a 'love cocoon' Do I need to try to save a worthless collective or spearhead a new bud of growth? Am I to old and lazy for such a task? I know the answers are only within me, but I have been wavering back and forth.

I suppose when the events begin to become frightening I will know what I feel, then it might be to late to take action as in moving....

A part of me desires to give it all over to Creation and allow to come what may as there are no accidents. Though I know inaction is also an 'action'. I feel paralyzed as if I am in a state of homeostasis. I pray and dwell on the inner guidance to know what to do. I trust in my guides and Creation that I can not make a 'mistake'. When I grasp that awareness I feel calm.

Have been trying to sell the Home but rejected offers of 300K less than I knew it was worth.. Now at times I feel I should have took the 700K and gotten 'on with it'. Then again awareness kicks in and I know we can't make a mistake. Perhaps we are more needed in the angelic realms than here. I take a deep breath and repeat some comforting words as I breath 'you are safe' or 'flower fresh' Then I come read Camelot and Avalon and begin to be unsure again. Our lives together have been So Wonderful. And we have done so many wonderful things together, that we feel we have always been ,guided, protected. So I begin to trust again not to worry... then I come here and back in the fire again sometimes. SO I need to hear my inner answers and follow our star wherever it leeds. Thank you all for sharing your innermost thoughts.. It has given much needed comfort as the energies seem to get more urgent. We should all remember that if we remain there is nothing to fear this 'life' that we believe is so important, and it is, but its also just a movie and the Greater Reality ' awaits us in its primal splendor. I have glimpsed this place in a meditation 25 years ago, I wished to see my Grandfather who just had 'passed' on to the core experience.. the other dimension and wrote the experience down. I will post it hear now:

The Reality Of Truth
by, Eugene Fields

The sum of you must come to understand,
that the value that you place,
on what you believe
is your reality,
is causing the separation, and fear
that one experiences on a regular basis.
One must finally come to terms with the fact,
that what one experiences, on a moment by moment basis,
is in fact an illusion the Dream.
This precious reality which we cling to,
and rightly so,
is only a very small portion of activity
which is going on in this very space
that we as physical beings inhabit.
A"Course In Miracles" describes a
'Wholly Instant' as:
Any time that the individual
transcends his immediate reality and
catches a glimpse of the greater truth.
The primary reality.
I have glimpsed the Greater Reality which we inhabit.
I was meditating and I became aware of light.
A glorious light of unparalleled purity and unending power.
A shaft of light which appeared,
and I entered it
after a period of mandalas of 'energy patterns'
like a kaleidoscope,
however these patterns,
were much more complex in a crystalline structure.
I believe I was viewing at the subatomic stage
as to me these were recognizable as structures for matter.
They varied in color and complexity,
but were an obvious
language of some sort.
Much intelligence resided there, but this was only a precursor,
an introduction to a very special journey.
One made by countless people
from the beginning of life in our universe.
Upon the ending of the patterns
the shaft of light is before me.
It is in the distance and the size of a toothpick.
Rather quickly now,
it is I who am the size of the toothpick,
and the shaft looms before me.
I simply think Enter
and I'm inside now,
like a tiny air bubble in the ocean I am flying to the top.
It took a couple of minutes to get there.
Wow! Woo! I look around the top of this tube.
I mean, It Is, Immense!
The whole earth would be a BB in this tube
All around the top
there is what looks like clouds of white water at Niagara Falls and the water is pouring over the sides exactly like the falls. Wow!
As I get my bearings
and glance around the entire circumference of the perimeter
I realize I feel an affinity,
to an area over there somewhere.
As I think about it,
I'm moving there.
Woo! that's not white water,
there are millions of little specks,
all swarming or kind of pulsating all together
and yet all at different times.
Oh, my God those aren't little specks
those are my people, my loved ones from forever
they are coming towards me.
A tear escapes as I feel their love
I can't believe it's really them.
"Poppy? Is that you?"
"Of course my darling It's me,
"Everyone is here to see you.
We are very surprised to see you because you are awake.
"My boychuckal I want to give you a squeeze !"
We're so proud of you.
You are the first of our line to come here when you were awake.
This is a major event for us because,
this must happen for many more
that the world will change,
and we will enter our rightful heritage in
the fabric of life, You see you are here too.
And I met my own light,
who was me.
We were connected by a thread of light.
You see all the dots of light who had physical presence,
on the earth are connected to their light body
by these threads.
That's what was pouring over the side of the tube.
All of humanity is waiting for the ascension of mankind,
at the top of that tube
in order to welcome and greet,
those souls,who are passing over
on the off chance,
that some intrepid traveler such as me,
might make the journey and glimpse
The Greater Reality.
As I gained composure
I said "If you're poppy show me your face"
My poppy's face appeared first
as last I saw him and then younger.
He was smiling his special smile
then many showed me their faces.
My dad’s mom and dad,
Aunt Resnick and faces I could barely place.
One item that was certain however,
was the intensity of love I experienced from all.
I then showed my face,
and realized that I had to think about it to do it.
Then I understood.
I thanked everyone but told them to please stop,
as it took concentration of thought to materialize a face.
I felt bad and they said "don't be silly it was fun.
Good practice to be sure.
I looked around and saw,
what looked like a physical representation of the earth
streets, buildings,horizons,
the whole bit, you Know?
Except it looked like a negative.
The entire background was a deep blue and purple violet.
Almost black, but the outlines were of things,
looking like tubes of blue white light.
I looked back to my group and said,
'I'm only experiencing a little bit of this place?',
and they were glad I understood.
When they told me of the colors and smells
of this wondrous place, which never changes
and which I could not even imagine,
the beauty and bliss in its totality.
I understood and another tear escaped my eye,
at the realization of the utter scope of this thing, 'existence'
They went on to explain,
“that as I was still actually physical, this was all I could experience”.
They told me everyone comes here when sleeping,
but very few had made my journey awake.
I was very pleased to have found "Home" and
I knew in the twinkling of an instant that
This was the ‘Primary Reality’
and my physical body was in the dream.
Even my physical body was actually trapped light.
A holographic representation of a thought.
A movie as it were.
After experiencing this
I realized that I would not and could not ever
be who I was from before that moment.
That moment
of realization.
When all truth is known.
And all illusions pale,
next to the truth of the totality of His love.
I looked up and saw the,
White Light of Creation.
Some call it God.
It matters not by which name you call it.
There it is. One for all life all eternity.
It simply waits for your decision to return.
They told me I could go there when I wanted to
Then I understood that all that is asked of life is that one love.
To love, the one prerequisite to growth.
And that truth be acknowledged and faced.
Change is not a requirement,
It is the only constant in this physical existence
Any action which would ever bring you
separation,
fear or pain or
discomfort would never be required.
Though you may feel,
that you must do something to be truthful,
and this action brings pain, ignore this.
understand that your pain arrives from some
expectation you had which was not fulfilled
expect nothing,
you are safe,
you are safe !
This Reality is an illusion.
God is the dancer, and we are the dance.
Lose the attachment to the moment
and realize the Greater Reality going on forever.
That you are eternally loved.
That there is nothing you could do
that would in any way would detract
from the completeness of the love of creation,
eternity, you all possess.
To realize that is the way to healing and a conflict free life.
If at any time anything takes hold
which is unpleasant and brings, anger or fear, remember
your True place of existence.
We are but experiencing a ‘moment’
already occurred in the perspective of God.
All the lifetimes you ever had,
or could ever have, in His eye,have already happened.
You are divine and victorious.
The only thing you are doing in the present
moment of physical life is deciding
how long a movie you make.
The length depending on,
the quality of actions taken while physical.
The only value coded of or to any action,
being that the motivation sought, was love.
And that it not be at anyone's expense.
That at all junctures of decision,
the betterment of the whole was at heart.
These are the valuable things,
one may do in life,
not earnings,
not things you amassed,
no possession ever imagined,
ever meant anything to 'Creation'.
It was rather the the quality of the thoughts,
at the time all that was going on
that have a lasting meaning,
and so how you will judge yourself,
is on that's basis alone.
One, ought live under the premise,
that “One should not whisper anything in confidence
that one, should find offensive if shouted loud enough
for the world to hear”.
Because, you see, by your hearing it yourself
the world has heard it.
All is known.
There is 100% full disclosure
for all who wish the frankness of the truth.
For truth is known.
There is no secret.
There was never any need.
You have the love and total acceptance of 'The Creation'.
There is no punishment and no hell,
save what you put yourself through,
with useless fear and guilt.
God sees no sin.
In the presence of God,
sin does not exist.
One must choose,
as to his path, at the arrival here, after death
as to what one will do next.
For if there is any sense of regret or unfinished business,
then one usually decides to,
go back the earth school.
To further the accumulated and cataloged experiences,
in order to have a shining beacon,
to bring back to The Creation.
As he brings back
his lives, on his back,
in a sack ,as it were
to add to 'The Creation's' knowledge and light.
As we in spirit are connected,
to our physical earth body,
by this cord of light,
so, we are in turn,
are all connected to God,
Each one of us,
whether we believe it or not.
All saved,
there very own
spot
with millions,
of holographic threads,of light
forming geometric patterns
through timeless creation,
from the Creator, be it God,or It, or Himself
The proportions of this,
truly leave one in awe,
of the beauty,
the safety,
the end of fear,
and the end,
of the need to control.
Total release to God.
Love, has given us all absolution.
Upon realizing this
the outer circumstances
of your life
will lighten perceptibly.
Thus by aligning thought
with awareness of 'The Creation's' love
A life free of pain and,
an end to suffering.
Trust the love.
Be healed.

me

PS

No matter what course of action we take we are all survivors and eternal.

I'll probably start packing soon for Ecuador... We are not 'done' yet I believe...

Creation Bless us all

addalight

09-28-2008, 03:56 AM

How far underground do you have to go before your heat signature goes away?

bosr

09-28-2008, 04:42 AM

Here is a link to a good site with free survival books and nuclear information.
http://www.ki4u.com/webpal/d_resources/index.htm

Waterman

09-28-2008, 04:47 AM

It depends whether you are under rock or dirt. AND it depends on how important you are and whether they have the expensive stuff operating that can find you.

Wearing material like a survival blanket is better than going underground unless it is just really convenient. Remember that there is available material that is like a faraday cage it stops frequencies. It is about $35 per yard and for about $1000 you can canopy your bed and then add a space/survival blanket and you are pretty much gone!

bosr

09-28-2008, 05:17 AM

By the way I've been in a situation where helos were looking for me.
Waterman

I love real-life stories from people who lived what the rest of us can only imagine. You have a lot of practical life saving info that you can share without the BS the wannabes try to pass off.

Your service to your country is to be applauded and appreciated regardless of our so-called political leaders' games.

Please share as much practical advice as possible regarding survival, improvised arms, evasion techniques or anything else related to this thread.

There is too much touchy-feely foo-foo stuff out there that can not be verified. I too would like to see practical, useful "we can make our own future" ideas.

Thank you Waterman!

Peace of Mine

09-28-2008, 05:50 AM

One enterprising couple has been living in the mountains of Oregon by choice, in temporary shelters, for years without being detected or run out of their habitat. They have been editing a newsletter for almost 30 years about their experiences. Pay $20 for the back issues, if for no other reason than to set your fears free.

These people have not only survived, they have thrived. And they have shared the secrets of how to set up a shelter that is not disturbed by hunters, or wardens, or anybody else, on public lands. They take simple ideas, like solar ovens, and tweak it until it works for them. They share exactly how to make the most efficient rocket stoves with simple materials on hand, or build a heater in the earth, and angle the smoke so that it will not be easily detected.

They share specifics of a food storage program under the most daunting of conditions. They'll make you think about basics with down-to-earth clarity that will convince you that it can be done. On the smallest of budgets. With specifics.

Most of us would not choose to live such simple lives, unless it became a matter of survival. Bert and Holly's Newsletter is part of my survival gear.

Dwelling Portably, POB 190, Philomath, OR 97370 $20 cash for (30??) back issues plus I'd send $5. for postage. They don't ask for it, but everything else has gone up, so I'd include it as a donation.

showmemo

09-28-2008, 11:53 PM

A great topic I see allot of things to scare people though as this should be a positive thread of thought though. Have you ever wondered maybe the government says they have this and that to scare people into thinking oh my what ever shall I do they are far to powerful, sure they do have some things we have seen them but here is a thought of something that happened not to long ago. Remember seeing Israel gathering their forces on the news how they news made it seemed they where so mighty and strong? as they where ready to role into Palestine, what did happen they did not stay long did they as a few groups without tanks or jets and even helicopters sent them home hey how about Vietnam no more said there sorry vets I know the powers that be played you guys and guess what they will again to the new soldiers.

This lesson should be taken to heart as there has always been a Goliath and a David all the clenches the bigger they are the harder they fall should be listened to. Mobile is good yet have a base of operation have a way to gather forces and then when not needed split off to smaller groups and KISS (keep it simple stupid) know when to fight and when to run see you must get information on how to survive and how to lead to be able to train groups here is one good read The Art of War is a nobrainer. Good military books from the Ranger and Spacial forces they have ones to teach on how to survive in the cold to learning to read a compass and map. Learn field crafts and how to store caches in the spot you pick with your friends, train on gun use and other weapons such as bows for hunting. At this stage it may be best for you to find like minded people in your area you can train with now do not be afraid to ask questions you can only do so much online, you have to go out and do these things to learn as reading can do only so much.

Go to your local gun shop or sports store let them know you need to find a weapon for hunting game a small cali. such as a 22 for small game squirrel a shotgun for turkey or ducks and larger cal for deer,also a bow but you must train to use them. Learn to field dress your catch and to tan a hide how about a fishing pole cannot go wrong there. Do not get overwhelmed stay focused and figure out your needs such as how to start a fire and what back pack should I use, start to hike with it to get trained with it also.

As for a fortification I feel you should have a spot yes but do not fortify it learn to build shelters and be able to leave it quickly to your next site and next cache always be two steps or more ahead.Think higher ground where you have the advantage of seeing further and for protection build into the side of hills like the Vietnam did LOL I think I have gone on and on enough mabe to much LOL we all have callings and all have speacial things to bring to each other,I feel I was trained in allot without my knowledge but hey that is a diffrent subjet for a diffrent day.

This is the best time to be alive and I thank the creator for every day and the gifts he gives me just think we get to live in the time they have written in the past and we are the players in this play I for one do not want to sit on the side lines do you?

peace hang ten

pineal-pilot-in merkabah

09-29-2008, 12:23 AM

i think we amy face similar here in britain soon.. the pine needle info is interesting.. can anyone elaborate further??

Soul Sequence

09-29-2008, 12:28 AM

i think we amy face similar here in britain soon.. the pine needle info is interesting.. can anyone elaborate further??

To Quote Waterman
"Pine needles are very dense and hard and IR has a hard time getting signatures throught them. When you are uder trees with needles your heat rises through the needles and cools rapidly as it passes by the needles, and the IR light cannot penetrate the needles verywell. It is something that John Moore talks about." and " If I were to suggest anything I would suggest listening to John Moore at www.thelibertyman.com He is an expert on survival"

Shechaiyah

09-29-2008, 12:45 AM

You know, the planet Mars has a very extended history and it is a very old civilization.

Despite what NASA says about Mars, it is inhabited, as attested to by a number of contemporary informants: Collier, Hoagland, Cooper, and so forth.

In studying NASA interpretations of the Mars landscape, what I find is that their architecture is "hidden." Roofs of their structures look like flat rocks; they are hiding. And I believe they are hiding for the same reason we may want to hide: abductions. Alpha Draconis abduct humans FOR FOOD.

what we learned from Bucky Fuller is that geometric shapes conserve and accumulate energy. What we learn from alternative physics is that we live in an electric universe.

Put this all together, and we may develop a new architecture, clustered energy-conserving homes that are undetectable from satellites and probes.

May we find the way to be safe and appropriate.

Shech--

SynchrOMicity

09-29-2008, 12:59 AM

Well U better hurry! As far as food and self preserevation, a very inexpensive item is a 22 cal. rifle, and you can still get ammo for about 8-13 bucks. That's 500 rounds. Goes along way for eating, etc. Will post other ideas later.

Dantheman62

09-29-2008, 01:01 AM

I grew up in northern Minnesota and yes there is still land that man never goes to, but to be way out means you need to be way out there!. The best way to look at it is to go back to the indian ways, such as tepees which are very easily picked up and moved. I have spent the night outside in 32 degrees below zero and you can't build a fire big enough to survive, for example our fire was 5 feet across and 5 feet high and it was like there was no fire at all!, so you must be able to contain the heat, hence a tepee. On the other hand I've also gone through 3 hurricanes in south florida with no electricity for over two weeks in 97 degree heat and 90% humidity, the worst part about that is you just sweat and stink but you survive! Guns are a must to hunt and protect and I've got plenty with plenty of ammo also, and none are registered. The easist way to deal with whatever happens is to look back about in the past! If you need light, you light a candle, if you need food, you hunt and grow what's needed, if you need heat and cooking, you use wood, if you need water, hopefully there is a lake or river nearby or at least within a days walk. That's the simplistic way of looking at everything. I recommend not staying in a cave although it would hide any heat seeking stuff, there's only one way in and one way out! So piece of cake, just live like the pioneers did, or indians did!

Carrie Todd

09-29-2008, 06:57 PM

Good info. I think it's important to have several contingency plans. If at all possible, especially if you're rural, I think it's a good idea to stay put. You will have access to food (hunting, fishing, farming) and water (streams, ponds, wells if lucky). On that note, I think it would be a good idea to have a bow and arrows. That would be easier to maintain and quieter to attract less attention. Of course, it is only as useful as your, or someone in your family's, ability to use it.
Picking up a survival guide and a manual regarding the properties of plant varieties (for food, medicine, etc) in actual book form is a good idea. If things get really ugly I am in no way counting on having internet access.
This is also why a group of us got together this weekend to share contact info. I think networking with like-minded people in your area is an EXTREMELY good idea. There can be safety in numbers, but only if your numbers are safe...if you know what I mean.

bosr

09-29-2008, 11:25 PM

When everything hits the fan (if it does), then I believe we should be thinking defensively. I would hate to encourage anybody to face our troops, law enforcement, etc. face on. Your focus should be on self preservation. Any weapons you have should be geared towards hunting and self defense.

Be safe.

Download a free survival manual here (http://www.equipped.com/fm21-76.htm)

Sol Invictus

09-30-2008, 04:08 AM

Seems like i found a home here amongst you good folks.

I'm going to share a few thoughts to help discussion along. I am UK based but what i have to say would apply world wide.

First off, stay light and mobile. Do not build forts or visible 'homes' for at least 6 months after the situation goes bad. Those first 6 months are going to be very bad and the authorities if they have retained the ability will go 'all out' on its populations for control.

Light, mobile, stealthy. Organise maybe 5 or 6 temporary shelters and areas, all around or near places where survival has better odds i.e. rivers and forests. You start building structures, you have started to build radar markers for them to aim at. Structures need to be 'random' in nature and highly camouflaged for defense.

My personal opinion? start learning some real field craft now, and get a bit used to living 'out a bergen' for a few days, and build up and up until your hobo fishing, eating off the land and able to make homes and fires from scratch every couple of days.

Its tiring, exhausting even, but believe me, there is a whole world of edible food stuff out there for the taking if you are on the move constantly.

As a person who is very familiar with military and LE kit, i can tell you now that any dwelling above ground in any form of an organised 'shape' is going to get a millimetric radar snap taken and also its IR 'foot print' mapped.

If that foot print changes in the time they are watching, you know boots on the ground are going to come looking.

Sol Invictus

09-30-2008, 04:10 AM

Let me explain a bit about an IR foot print.

They will take both near and far IR photos of an area and measure the reflectivity. Foot prints disturb the earth and change this by small amounts. Enough foot prints disturb alot of top soil, so the 'darker' under soil will be reflecting light as it is exposed.

This will change the 'footprint' and expose any human activity.

bosr

09-30-2008, 04:14 AM

Sol Invictus - welcome.

Do you have any tips for finding food in the winter?

Sol Invictus

09-30-2008, 04:29 AM

Pine needle tea and phloem chips to stave off starvation and vitamin c deficiency.

Trapping and snaring along animal tracks in the snow (animals will use a trail time and time again, its this predicatability that gets them caught). Creating a system of bird lures and traps. A morning collecting wild berries, scattering them for a lure and then springing the trap shut gets the hungry bird time and time again.

Making a 'fish float' and having it rest in the river.

Now, the fish float will catch many many small fish, but does need a bit of preperation. However, once made will keep feeding you and yours for many moons to come.

Winter need not be a time of starvation, it just needs alot more efficiency of energy and thought.

If you have a bow or a rifle, a deer hide or stand will get you a handsome meal for many in one fell swoop.

bosr

09-30-2008, 04:45 AM

Pine needle tea and phloem chips to stave off starvation and vitamin c deficiency.

Found this when trying to figure out what Phloem chips are...

This is a survival tip for those out in the wilds who need a drink and a bit of a health boost

So its snowing, your down to the survival firelighter, your axe and a steel cup. Your thirsty, hungry and feeling a bit under the weather. You come to the edge of a pine forest. So what do you do? eat and drink well, and get a huge vitamin C boost to boot is the answer. Heres how.

See that pine tree? that there is your food, drink, shelter AND fire.

The fires easy, pine goes up well. Shelter? well, the boughs will shelter you well enough for the while in the lee side. Your drink? well you just fill your cup with snow or water, and boil it to kill any nasties. 10 minutes of a rolling boil is well enough to sterilise it. So what to add? Pine needles. Using a patch of material to act as a tea bag, gather up a handful of nice green needles, as close to the trunk and low down as you can - these are packed with vitamin C. Fill your material, and add it to the water. Let this boil until your water takes on a nice deep colour. Remove your make shift tea bag and sup up. There is 5 times more vitamin C weight for weight than a lime or lemon. Thats pine needle tea.

Now for some food.

Take your axe and remove a large square of the lower top bark from your tree. Underneath this bark is a sappy fibrous layer called the phloem. This layer transports all the goodness around the tree - it is packed with sucrose and other goodness. Taking you axe, cut off thin strips all the way down to the hard inner core wood. Take these strips, slice it down further, and place them over your roaring fire to bake. The sucrose will make them go golden crispy, and then you can eat away.

Drink, food, fire AND shelter, all from your good honest pine tree.

NOTE: DO NOT USE OR EAT A YEW TREE. It is a distinctive tree, deep bushy green with red chinese lantern shaped berries with a thick waxy appearence. This tree is deadly poisonous to a human. Do not use, eat or in any way try to consume this tree. Avoid it.

bosr

09-30-2008, 04:55 AM

Sol Invictus

09-30-2008, 04:56 AM

I made a seperate thread for it regarding the phloem and tea.

However, thats Good info, and I forgot to add that a yew tree is deadly poisonous to a human being.

Good point, ill amend my thread.

as for IR tarcking.

One global hawk at 40 thousand feet will be able to cover thouands of square miles per day looking for heat signatures. It helps if its cloudy or raining as they cannot penetrate very well.

However, their millimetric radar can. So don't go near established areas, stay way way out of the way.

conniec818

09-30-2008, 05:00 AM

Excellent link and resource, Waterman:thumb_yello:

and I'm still looking for more natural methods, btw the "cover yourself with mud" method doesnt work, it will for a few seconds, minutes, then your body heat will just heat up the mud.

Regards and Blessings,
Soul Sequence
greetings to all....
as per "covering yourself with mud"....no this doesnt work...but supposedly..solar blankets do...and if my memory serves me correctly..fire resistant blankets do also...ill have to look into that last one though..

bosr

09-30-2008, 05:03 AM

One global hawk at 40 thousand feet will be able to cover thouands of square miles per day looking for heat signatures. It helps if its cloudy or raining as they cannot penetrate very well.

However, their millimetric radar can. So don't go near established areas, stay way way out of the way.

If we setup camp(s) under dense foliage, will this hide our tracks? Might be tough if we don't have leaves in the cold months.

Sol Invictus

09-30-2008, 05:07 AM

To be honest, winter time requires a trade off.

Do you stay still and potentially starve? or do you move out into the open and expose yourself to danger?

Now I cannot see many people having LRRP discipline when out and about, so exposure will have to be traded for the use of the journey.

The real answer here though is to stay as far from civilisation as you can, make your group as tight and disciplined as possible, and stay out of areas with any military or former military bases.

In times of emergency, empty bases can quickly become forward operating areas, and then your screwed.

bosr

09-30-2008, 05:18 AM

I guess maybe stashing food and water in several places in advance may have a big payoff.

I'm out of here for the night. Thanks.

LiquidSwordz

09-30-2008, 05:33 AM

Sorry to tell all of you, but you are all wasting your time talking about your survival. If the worst case scenario does happen, your chances of survival will still be low, and i will tell you why.

The body cannot survive 3 days without water, and 6-7 days without food. Food, i don't think will be your biggest concern, but WATER will! Sure, you can carry a couple hundred purifying tablets and filters, but sooner or later your tablets will run out, and your filters will go bad. If your tagging along additional people with you, it will run out faster.

You can go ahead and try drinking water from a river or lake, but the question is, has your body adapted to drinking from these natural sources? NO! Our immune systems have gotten weaker since the introduction to sterile waters,unknown immunizations, and manufactured medicines! You will all end up getting sick, and now tell me, how will you cure your illnesses? No more going down the street to get an aspirin.

The only people who will survive, will be the people who already live off the land, since birth "indeginous people". They know how to hunt, know where all the food is, immune systems have adapted to the natural enviornment, and know how to treat there own illnesses etc.

I don't know about you guys, but if **** really does go down, i got my gunz ready, and those bastards wont take me alive period! I will take out as much of them as i can! Live free, or die for me!

Sol Invictus

09-30-2008, 05:38 AM

historycircus

09-30-2008, 09:27 PM

Shechaiyan makes a good point about architecture - does anyone have any practical experience with what he is talking about, or the domed structures that George Green discussed in one of his interviews?

You know, the planet Mars has a very extended history and it is a very old civilization.

Despite what NASA says about Mars, it is inhabited, as attested to by a number of contemporary informants: Collier, Hoagland, Cooper, and so forth.

In studying NASA interpretations of the Mars landscape, what I find is that their architecture is "hidden." Roofs of their structures look like flat rocks; they are hiding. And I believe they are hiding for the same reason we may want to hide: abductions. Alpha Draconis abduct humans FOR FOOD.

what we learned from Bucky Fuller is that geometric shapes conserve and accumulate energy. What we learn from alternative physics is that we live in an electric universe.

Put this all together, and we may develop a new architecture, clustered energy-conserving homes that are undetectable from satellites and probes.

May we find the way to be safe and appropriate.

Shech--

historycircus

09-30-2008, 09:34 PM

Welcome Sol Invictus - this is the first chance in days I have been able to check the direction this thread is taking, and I welcome your input - - THANKS!

LiquidSwords - while I am all for being prepared (thus the thread), I am not just concerned about "surviving." After whatever comes, I would like to be in a postion to help as many others as I can. To take a page from the good people on Avalon, let's keep this positive. This thread is not just about simple survival, it is about positioning oneself to live in service-to-others mode after whatever may be on its way.

Thanks everyone!

bosr

10-01-2008, 01:32 AM

Providing a nuke doesn't fall on our head, we inhale smallpox, a volcano erupts under our feet, wer'e thrown off the planet from a pole shift or get smothered in nerve gas; we will not only survive, but we'll do it in style.

Survival comes first, without it nothing else matters. Dead people cannot help others.

There are smarter ways to overcome without going out in a blaze of glory. Be prepared.

Sol Invictus

10-01-2008, 05:00 AM

Trishsgate

10-01-2008, 05:25 AM

Clustered energy efficient homes.

Skara Brae on the Orkney Isles. Bear with me and I will explain.

These are ancient, older than the pyramids houses found after a devastating storm hit the islands. They are stone and wood roofed houses covered with a layer of earth, built semi buried and low to the ground to conserve heat.

Now, they actually had interlinking 'tunnels' between each home, so to move from one to the other you never actually had to go 'outside'. This also had a huge benefit as you would share the heat from a fire between many homes. In short, a 'communal central heating' system.

me thinks it would be a good idea to build this way, as a semi buried and earthed over home would be very hard to spot from the air or ground if it was camouflaged the right way.

That is amazing I had a dream a littlee over a month ago about partially underground homes that were interconnected. Above ground was like your garden\play with streams of water around them while semi-below was your homes. The other thing in the dream was you had a central kitchen,living & greenhouse area which then branched off to the living areas. In this dream they were dome or round type housing was the only difference. Very strange dream indeed but it was so vivid. Still don't know what purpose it served as according to the maps of global changes or polar shift my area would be underwater or too close to risk it.

Sol Invictus

10-01-2008, 05:35 AM

That is amazing I had a dream a littlee over a month ago about partially underground homes that were interconnected. Above ground was like your garden\play with streams of water around them while semi-below was your homes. The other thing in the dream was you had a central kitchen,living & greenhouse area which then branched off to the living areas. In this dream they were dome or round type housing was the only difference. Very strange dream indeed but it was so vivid. Still don't know what purpose it served as according to the maps of global changes or polar shift my area would be underwater or too close to risk it.

Skara Brae had central dining areas with a fire right in the middle for equal heating to all parts of the house. It also served to funnel warm air through the tunnels in a great big doughnut shape. Every one heated every ones homes.

Right by the sea and with very fertile land about it. Its a beautiful place it really is.

Trishsgate

10-01-2008, 05:46 PM

Thanks for the information just checked it out and it truly is amazing. The picture on Wikipedia with the vegetation buildup is pretty similar to what I viewed and yes the heating was in a central location. This may well be the way to proceed for myself as well. Just need to do a little more research on the rise in water. Seems to me my dream was telling me this was the way for me to proceed.

pineal-pilot-in merkabah

10-01-2008, 06:29 PM

ive had similar thoughts of an under ground vilage undetectable to outside forces.. im a bit bothered about going so far up north as i understand we are headed for an ice age??? but i imagined it in the highlands on the side of a hill on the edge of a wood with a lake at the bottom..no visible entrance or a door that was covered in actual plants or turf..

pineal-pilot-in merkabah

10-01-2008, 06:40 PM

im gonna stay in the suburbs as long as possible.. if nuke war erupts then that is where the undergrpound villages come in handy.. we will probably be the only ones left alive, witht he exceptions of a few chipped city dwellers. i think we will be ok as far as hiding goes.. tehy will just let us rot in the northen hemisphere ithink.. not sure how many of us they want to keep..

Sol Invictus

10-01-2008, 06:47 PM

showmemo

10-01-2008, 07:09 PM

What wonderful information shared on this post yes stay positive and think things through we can live and survive have seeds where there is a will there is a way! learn to build shelters find books on survival. What was said about only natives will survive is wrong only those who have the will and the strength will come through this.

You can purify water using different ways I saw some interesting ways on utube using sand and gravel in layers a natural filter system of course boil water. Peace brothers and sisters

EpiphaMe

10-01-2008, 09:24 PM

Important too & lightweight for transport, stores for a looong time, is to have an assortment of seeds, to sprout for food... red clover/alfalfa, teeny tiny, hundreds per sq inch... especially in winter (seasonal warfare strategy right?), powerhouses of nutrition, rich in chlorophyl (think red blood cells) ! Lots of books out there on edible plants ! Sunshine on the skin makes D3 for immune system! I appreciate this thread! ty

Kelle Baley

10-01-2008, 10:33 PM

Alexandra,

Good points, but I disagree that there are no wild places left. Satellites can peek anywhere, but there exist many places that whatever is left of negative contol forces won't be paying attention to.

Alexandra does highlight a major concern - should we be considering large, fort like structures, or camoflaged structures that can somehow mask the resultant heat signatures (heat signatures will be what gives these hidden communities away from satellite imagery)?

Remember all that the ONLY KNOWN CAMOFLAGE AGENT IN OUR ARSENAL IS BY USE OF COPPER ITSELF. If no one has already mentioned this, copper hides infrared beams that satellites put out. Further; malevolent aliens that manipulate our psyche do so between the third and fourth dimensions. What can we do about this???? Think of your second dimension and sacral chakra (sexual) and your third chakra or solar plexus area. THis is where the most attacks and disturbances enter our very bodies. THis can actively confuse a person unawares especially if he/she goes into full animal survival mode. Take it from me, an avatar that has studied the human light fields for many years working one to one with perhaps 800 or so human mirrors. We can counter this. If you are not aware of this tactic playing out, you will soon.
I have encountered and fought many uninvited presences, most of them not human at all. I hope you hear this in the right way -as a survival technique. You must center your thoughts to your hearts and do so WITHOUT FEAR! you must actually OVERCOME FEAR. Then you must learn to meditate. Most survivalist become food easily by a bigger fish and those are the ones that hunt us between these two dimensions. So, if you are still listening to my words hear this: practice meditating formally for no more than ten minutes per day and use simple non forced breathing techniques to enlighten your mind set. The goal before you begin watching your inner screen movies (that always runs) is to simply empty your agenda and have the clear FEELING intent of surrendering your Mind link to your heart chakra for strengthening the inner vehicle. Overcoming fear is not an overnight learning but it does come in a short period of time by dealing with the truth in the inner worlds or astral world between third and fourth dimensions. THese malevolent beings are simply hungry and their food is fear itself-no kidding. A clear mind that follows the heart notices or remembers HOW TO APPLY ESSENTIALLY anything TO BUILD STRUCTURES AND MORE. There is just no substitute for a clear mind that follows the heart which sets up the proper use for grounding all thoughts into action. It becomes effortless including already having NOW supplies you will need and people that may have what you dont whom also know instintively how to link with you future wise. It is happening now anyway so good work doing this part for the few that hope to find you but have inner skills of seeing. THis is important if you decide not to listen and watch your dream time messages, etc.

I for one see already my link to the resources that my family will depend upon that I cannot provide them as I am a female not really trained in the arts of physical survival. He is an ex green beret with much more hidden training even after that for twenty years and is a fourth generation male from the same ways. In a dream four years ago (as an example of how this works) his own father made a contract with me to introduce me to him. I was invited to enter his life one year before we knew each other physically.
I was sort of contracted by his father to spiritually awaken him ( my now partner) and in return I am just now discovering what that return back to me and mine is- physical survival. He has already been a long time survivalist prepared for the worst on land and with facilities to shelter a large family there in mid america and another place way farther north than i can say.

All that i am saying here is to consider this active tool in your tool box as it clarifies and has structure with the Universal laws of attraction. Fear, if not overcome, draws the same no matter how you hide that fear. The third chakra is a receptacle and a gun for creating powerfully for what is needed by that human and it IS limitless. This solar plexus must be harnessed peacefully in order to draw the same from the Universe. It is this process of human electro-magnetic (emotion and mental mind thought) that if intrained cannot be overcome by another no matter the species.

Try this once you set up a safe space during meditation- see your bubble clearly around above and beneath your body and then empower it with the element of Copper to seal both the inner doorways or chakras and the outter bubble's edge where your energy ends -this is about 55 to 65 feet out. This did wonders for my psyche instantly creating peace in my whole house and included others in our house to experience the same feeling of peace!
Now I use the copper like this- i visualize as an addition a copper hour glass that amplifies from third solar plexus chakra above me and below me with the intent of deflection of all malevolent energy including those hunting for easy prey.

Aliens in 3d can see us on radar and send messages quite disguised as your own thoughts once they get in your head -this is easy during sleep time as most of us leave the body and research or link together only to return and find that we have been programed or attacked. THey use infrared beams to penetrate our thoughts and this is how they hear our thoughts too. THey have one very limiting ability; they lack the emotional body materia to combat us. THis is what makes us so dangerous to even them. We can hurt or hinder physically another human or non human by emotionally charged thoughts. If we are in control of that emotional body. See?.

WE are in a Universal lifeform that has not lost this important capability which the heart center operates. If mind link to the almighty follows the heart center and not the third chakra instinct before filtering in the psyche it can not be EVER tricked into forfeiting the vessel or vehicle to another malevolent or distorted thought by these predators among us human or not.

I would like to teach online but was alien contacted and told by a very big unkind and dark individual being (I sensed reptilian) that much mischief would befall my experiment via other vessels not as capable as I should I actually attempt such a class online. I did suddenly realize that the only way to act and get the same results was to meet in a group of only three, hold formal meditation and reach people in the third chakra without going the live feed. It is best if done at the same time each day but truthfully, my inner counsel says that our vessels can overcome the space time separation by honoring the freedom to hold that space with others linked into strong meditation with the personal intent to then increase your skills internally to the order described above. We will both have real time mind-link space shared third chakrally and more that cannot be described. Keep in mind that the more you practice empowering personal space the more invincible you instantly become. I am at your service and i will see any of you within when it serves you.

bosr

10-02-2008, 01:14 AM

What does it mean when all I get is static when looking at inner screens?

I am asking this seriously btw.

Shellie

10-02-2008, 03:09 AM

If going underground is the solution, then I think there will be more Turks who survive this than anyone else... all of central Anatolia is covered by awesome ancient underground cities with running water, food storage, circulating air, and booby traps.

Sol Invictus

10-02-2008, 03:12 AM

You been to Cappadocia cities? Derinkuyu, its mind bogglingly awesome. 20 thousand people could live for a while hidden deep underground.

Question is, all that effort to seal themselves IN so some thing couldn't get them out...

Thats a mystery.

(Actually its not, makes perfect sense if you have a little bit of 'alternate' history' knowledge.

Shellie

10-02-2008, 03:21 AM

I don't think we need alternate histories to explain it. There were invasions after invasions after invasions in that region. Mediterranean peoples went underground for safety- that is just what they did. Temples, churches, burial chambers.. it is all underground.

But I do find it interesting that UFOs are very popular in Turkey- more so than the rest of Europe and the Middle East. Alternative history, conspiracies etc is known by everyone!

Kelle Baley

10-02-2008, 06:02 AM

What does it mean when all I get is static when looking at inner screens?

I am asking this seriously btw.

Apologies for a late return. thanks for asking.

What my experience has taught me regarding the inner movie screen of your own third eye vision is this: The skill to receive or experience the now thoughts (that go on and on) as visuals is at first a game. Its like watching a five year old put on an act and if you wait patiently while sitting still and paying attention, you will then see what the mind is doing lose from the heart. When it is not loose, you will see imagery that reflects your feelings.

Your thoughts are always running and so are your movies of how you feel in the moment. The issue is that most of us get stuck in movies about the past and or the future. If the future seems to draw on you, static makes sense as your own consciousness has less ability to see the future than it does to review the past and in this very now your mind searches outwardly more than inwardly until you are walking in meditation which is saying that you are still minded enough to reflect inwardly for the purpose of self aware beingness -it is a way of being free.

Static as a result of watching the mind link and its activity is a game of letting go of outcomes. This is why many meditation techniques advise you to focus at first only upon breathing which brings you to feel the body. Feeling one part at a time actually slows down brainwaves which then allows you to self observe. once you do, you will likely then witness the state of your mind link which is always searching for God connection as a reality of experience. THis is what motivates many to want natural slow brain emissions like dopamine and endorphine releases -to slow the experience to then register your power to create or observe. This all increases the frequency of link to the source.

Breathe work, the body focus, then wait and get to a point of stillness first then see what happens. It is a process that you can try daily many times but not more than ten minutes at a time. The mind without practice of slowing tends to become like a fantasy horse that wants to be free and create higher. Without the slow down and the surrender to the heart this is always false truth in experience. Static just means that you have yet to engage the real deal objective -the process that is an art of stillness.

happy inner trails not trials

Kelle Baley

10-02-2008, 07:06 AM

[QUOTE=efields;30316]I am of 2 minds on the FUTURE. One sell the home and get to a community as in Ecuador Panama Uruguay etc.
. I have glimpsed this place in a meditation 25 years ago, I wished to see my Grandfather who just had 'passed' on to the core experience.. the other dimension and wrote the experience down. I will post it hear now:

The Reality Of Truth
by, Eugene Fields

The sum of you must come to understand,
that the value that you place,
on what you believe
is your reality,
is causing the separation, and fear
that one experiences on a regular basis. ...

...Thus by aligning thought
with awareness of 'The Creation's' love
A life free of pain and,
an end to suffering.
Trust the love.
Be healed.

me

PS

No matter what course of action we take we are all survivors and eternal.

I'll probably start packing soon for Ecuador... We are not 'done' yet I believe...

You and this amazing arrangement of words are so eternal and inspire a deep place in me. THank you for sharing your hope, your woes and your dreaming body laughing along with the rest of us.

peace is the only thing we must do..to achieve and maintain peace reveals all folds of illusion within and without to then see the choice -joy is priceless now-isms yet peace is timelessness, the sharing of true self.

bosr

10-03-2008, 01:53 AM

Apologies for a late return. thanks for asking.

Static just means that you have yet to engage the real deal objective -the process that is an art of stillness.

Thank you for your answer. Practice, Practice, Practice:)

----------------------------------

Back to the topic.

There is a lot of talk now about an economic collapse resulting in a "bank holiday" in the near future. If these rumors are true then we need to step up our efforts to be prepared. I don't think we have enough time to build new fortified/defensive structures.

Any thoughts on this?

historycircus

10-03-2008, 02:21 AM

Sol Invictus,

I agree - plus, fire heat is quickly distinguished. Depth of the central hearth, seasonal zone, etc. are factors to consider. It will eventually heat up the earth above and will hold its heat for hours (at the least), concievably setting it apart from the rest of the countryside - a community sized heat signature. Oddly enough, I think winter camps would be OK, especially snow pack regions. It is the summer months that would give away locations from the sky.

Trishgate and Pineal: maybe you are connecting mentally with the future we are co-creating here.

EpiphaMe: seeds are essential. Seed bases, as has been discussed on other threads, need to be built now. Some good thread material exists on the types of seeds and foods out there.

Everyone else: fear is bad, and we should all lose it. However, preparedness is not fear. Actually, good plans can eliminate it, or effectively reduce it. UFOs and invading hordes of terrestrial madmen are all the same to me. They can go grok themselves.

Keep posting!

R.Z.

10-03-2008, 03:21 AM

... preparedness is not fear.

That's right !!

Okay folks - my two cents (though most of what I can offer has already been covered):

Regarding guns (well, this much is true of any skill) ... they're no good if you're not practiced with them. I think most of us agree that time is short, so acquire a firearm & start practicing!

Sub-sonic rounds were mentioned as a way of not attracting attention - this is only true if your firearm is silenced ... all rounds make plenty of noise when fired, a silencer will mitigate that noise - but is obviously quite illegal without government issued permits.
If noise is a concern (and it may well be, at times) then a .22 long-rifle firearm may be your best bet. Both guns and ammunition are plentiful (here in the States, anyway), and they are commonly chambered in both rifles and handguns. This is a quiet round because it is relatively low-powered ... which emphasizes my first point - you must be practiced/accurate. An accurately placed .22 long-rifle round can be lethal at quite a long range.

Shotguns have been mentioned as bird-guns. A 12-gauge shotgun (again, a good choice due to availability of ammunition) can be a devastating short-range weapon to the largest of targets - with the proper choice of shells. My own experience may be limited compared to some others here, but my own collection includes equal parts #00 & #4 buckshot, and slugs. These are definitely not bird shot, but I don't intend to hunt quail with those rounds.

To the original question - the firearms that pack the most punch are high-powered (hunting) rifles (we can discuss handguns at another time). The obvious drawback to a high-powered rifle ... one shot will give away your position to anyone within, oh, say - a half mile or so. One thing to keep in mind here - the difference between a hunting rifle and an assault rifle is their designed purpose. A hunting rifle will efficiently take-down big game. An assault rifle is actually designed to wound, not to kill ... the thought behind this, in a military mindset, is: killing a soldier takes one man off the battlefield, wounding a soldier takes three men off the battlefield (the wounded man + two to carry him).
Should you be in the market for a high-powered rifle, I would suggest basing your decision as much on what is the most readily available ammunition in your area. Stop by the local Wal-Mart or sporting goods store & see what's stocked behind the counter. 30-06, 270, 300 are all more than adequate for anything less than the largest of big-game, and there are many, many others to choose from.

... enough for now ...

My best to everyone !!

Sol Invictus

10-03-2008, 04:01 AM

Took £1000 out of the bank.

All the talk of a 'week long' bank holiday IF it is true will have monumental shockwaves through out Europe as well.

This is NOT good news at all.

However, if push comes to shove, I think alot of people will be just able to cope for long enough not to cause carnage. Longer than a week, then I fear it will all fall apart at the seams.

Shechaiyah

10-03-2008, 04:16 AM

Here is a fort layout that was pretty successful. It is typical of the "clubs" design. Its not easy to hide, but pretty defendable, if positioned on a river. Floods will be a potential concern.

http://www.ftdechartres.com/page/page/1926781.htm

http://www.nps.gov/archive/fost/expand/graphicsAdmin/fig1.jpg

This is nice, but with deteriorating atmosphere and ground water, I think we're going to have to do it differently, with tunneling between units, no entrances above ground.

http://www.holyconservancy.org/789005.htm

I hear the water table is going to drop, not increase, due to the polar shift, and the Atlantic seaboard is the best place to enjoy Equator weather during the new Ice Age.

But you may be hearing something else. So, each of us has to go into our inner selves, and figure out what's best for our situation.

: ) Shech-- :wink2:

Luigis Mushroom

10-03-2008, 04:44 AM

First of all I think people like us that are getting prepared now will have a responsibility to those that end up getting caught in the hysteria. Obviously this is within the boundaries of our own reach and security, but when thinking about various scenarios you first have to wonder how much attention should be paid on survival against the elements, and how much should be paid on survival against militia. Tips for self sustainable living and building communities are great, but it's kind of in the long run. I mean, first you got your basics (Water, Shelter, Fire, Food) but after that the primary concern for me personally would be maintaining awareness of who's in my territory, establishing networks with other people in order to create safe zones and escorting people through these safe zones.

Take South America into account during the 70s and 80s when nationalists started a fight against their own Federal Militia and United States Imperialism. On the Urban Level, they could hit hard and surprise the militia to do a lot of damage, but the feds need only capture one person and torture him in order to be able to round up all the rest and disappear them.

On the rural level, people all needed to congregate in communities, and again if the feds could kidnap just one, they could find the site and wipe everybody out.

And there's the question as to what degree of offense should be taken. People talk about bringing lot's of ammunitions into the wilderness and setting up castles or big communities, but what is that point in that? In the wilderness they can find you and bomb you to smitherines without any concern.

But in the urban areas, would-be insurgants are screwed the same, they may be able to pull off a couple good hits but they'll be found eventually. Take it from me, you can't play cat and mouse forever, eventually the cat always wins. There's no point in playing the prey the whole time.

So for those planning aggressive activities, firstly I recommend to spend most of your time in the wilderness and don't try to enter Federally Controlled Zones. In the wilderness, the most important thing is simply awareness of who's in the area, and because of that it's important to establish a network and type of communication with other settlers in the area. It's also important to train as many people as possible in combat. Furthermore, large communities in permanent dwellings are a bad idea. It's pretty much one or the other, if you choose to dwell permanently then maintain contact with other networks but keep a very low, non-assertive profile. If you choose to go with a large community, stay mobile.

Both would be necessary, one as a lookout and checkpoint for people escaping federal zones, the other for offensive purposes.

Networking is the key to maintaining security and a successive offensive, if you can't contact other people, you're just wandering around the woods with a bunch of guns. Remember to be devoted to a higher purpose, this is not you vs the world, it's the world vs the cancer that's developed on it.

Sol Invictus

10-03-2008, 05:26 AM

http://www.aclu.org/natsec/emergpowers/14444leg20021206.html

Now, stop with immediate effect any discussion of any guerilla activity. The Patriot act has very long arms, and the PTB have a very long reach.

I'm new here, but let me give you this advice. Stop with immediate effect. If this is a US server, it falls under US juridiction, as does every one entering a message on it. Review laws to ascertain this fact.

Secondly.

Whats coming down the pipe line will require us to hide, not fight any one. Nature and 'other forces beyond us and our control' will do the rest.

Luigis Mushroom

10-03-2008, 05:47 AM

Okay my post was edited. I'm not speaking in reality, honestly I don't think Martial Law is going into effect in the United States. I was speaking hypothetically. Because of that, I wasn't worried about the patriot act because I don't consider myself an enemy. My friend is part of a branch of the military that hunts down people using tools the patriot act enabled them to use, and it's not as simple as bag and tag. There's a lot of red tape to slide through on these matters, and I doubt the US economy will hold out long enough for all 10 steps of destroying democracy to go into effect. If something were to go down, I think it's more likely that the banking families would bankroll and invasion of the United States rather than Martial Law.

As far as "other forces beyond our control" I don't understand, could you clarify? I'm not waiting for Jesus to rescue me, if I were in a situation where us civs were under attack, I would respond by maintaining a territory, changing that territory regularly, and helping people get to safe zones.

Sol Invictus

10-03-2008, 06:02 AM

Red Tape?

Oh you mean 'hidden prisons', NSA 'black bag' troops, 'Civilian pilots' flying fake tail number aircraft and no over sight by Congress?

Yeah, if thats red tape, i'd hate to see free and easy operations.

Almost every single person in Gitmo right now was taken with no red tape involved. Bagged, tagged and in a prison suit within hours. Some in there were talking terrorism over the web.

Oh and as for no martial law in the USA? every one said Chile would never fall to a military dictatorship either, but it did and look where that led to.

Luigis Mushroom

10-03-2008, 06:32 AM

First of all I'd like to know who is supposed to save us if martial law occurs.

Secondly, I'm not saying it couldn't, just that by most accounts it isn't yet. In Eastern Germany during the 80s, most people were not under Stasi surveillance, it's the fact that they all thought they were that made it effective.

What follows is my friend's answer to a question I posed about how I'm supposed to trust a government with no accountability.

No, you don't understand the process. This is exactly what I mean. If they are not absolutely guilty, BEYOND what it takes to convict somebody in the United States, they are released by our unit on the spot. There is no chance for the shady higher ups to get their hands on the EPW's. That only comes later, with HVT's (high value targets).

The evidence is purely physical, ie [hard evidence] etc etc. We are the average joes. We have no interest in top secret detaining for information or anything like that. If they do nothing wrong, they are released. Also, it is MANDATORY that pictures of the evidence are included in the arrest. If photographs are absent, the detainee is released.

If they ARE guilty, with pure physical evidence AND photographs to back it up, then away they go. And I don't give a **** where they go or what happens to them. Maybe if your friends had been blown up like mine have you would understand that statement.

All I'm saying is that you don't understand how the EPW system works, and you shouldn't pretend that you do.

I know, it's not freedom, but it's not quite fascism yet.

Sol Invictus

10-03-2008, 08:05 AM

Luigis,
I can respect the position of a ground trooper. Theres is a world of laws and rules.

However i am very very familiar with the dark side and how they operate.

Believe me when I say there is a world were men knock on doors and even scores, no questions asked.

Gitmo is full of people who never had a seconds thought that the long arm and mailed fist of the NSA and CIA could reach that far and so fast.

Verity

10-03-2008, 09:11 AM

Something that I haven't seen discussed it the averaage person's appaling lack of physical fitness.

My partner and I have been planning for months, getting a BoB ready, practicing outdoor living skills, learning about native edible plants, and preparing mentally for a situation which would require us put our plans in motion. We do this not just for a potential apocalypse but also for any type of situation where we couldn't depend on the modern comforts of life.

One thing we didn't think about though in all our planning was the fact that with rather heavy backpack on my back I can't walk all that far. I'm not totally out of shape, I'm sure I could walk twenty miles easy, but to do it for several days/weeks/months at a time, I find that thought rather disconcerting. As our plan involves leaving the immediate area quickly, and staying mobile and as invisible as possible the fact that we aren't as physically fit as possible is a wrench.

But, we've recognized this rather blatant oversight and have started preparing. Walking with our backpacks on to try and get used to it, excesing more regualrly and generally trying to train our bodies as much as possible.

Some great advice in these posts and I will keep reading to learn as much as possible.

historycircus

10-03-2008, 04:23 PM

Sol and Luigi (I'm shocked by the bong in your avatar, I pegged the Mario Brothers as trippers, ya' know, because of the mushrooms),

Your exchanges here have forced me consider the possibility and necessity of aggressiveness. Again, as elsewhere, I find myself in agreement with Sol. If the PTB become our worst enemy in the near future instead of the environment, and we find ourselves in a geographic zone that attracts their scrutiny, offense will not be an option. This is the perfect opportunity for me to say that spiritual preparation for the future is just as important as the physical. Some of us here will find that the best laid plans might not matter at all. Offense would be pointless. That is not to say that offensive activity in the spirit of say, the American Revolution, is not an admirable thought, just merely impossible in the era of sattelites, laser and microwave weapons, and robots. Washington would have had his ass handed to him if Cornwallis had just one COMSAT - one of the most important factors that led to the colonial victory was that the Continental Army (a federalized collection of local militias) knew the terrain, while British forces (especially the officers - the tacticians) knew next to nothing about it beyond what others told them. If offense will be pointless, then it is violence for violence's sake - a paradigm of the past and present I personally don't want to be a part of in the future. I tend to think that the immediate survivors of whatever is coming will be too busy surviving to worry about such things - the generation after us will have to make those decisions for themselves.

With that being said, I am an advocate for defense, but in that regard, it is not the PTB I worry about. If a small village of fifty souls, armed with fouling pieces and a few rifles, confronts a well equipped outfit of PTB stormtroopers, well, they are screwed - that will be a moment where spiritual preparation is of the utmost importance. Defense preparations for these small communities, in my mind, will be necessary for dealing with other survivor bands who may be one can short of a six-pack. We know that there are some pretty unpleasant groups that have been preparing for the apocalypse since the first successful Russian nuclear tests in 1949. I'm not so much worried about the PTB as I am them. What happens when one of these well armed white supremacist groups crawls out of their fallout shelter, investigates the countryside, and finds a multiethnic camp close by? Maybe thier experiences in the hole will draw them closer to humanity and enlighten them, but more than likely, it won't, and the realization that they can do as they please may lead them to do ugly things. Keep in mind that the larger organized crime syndicates (street gangs, mafia, drug cartels, etc.) may also make it through to the other side - they are probably more well organized than most of us here on Avalon. In terms of arms and ammunition for defense, that is the sort of conflict I see: defending peaceful communites from other survivors. I just don't think that whatever is coming will selectively weed out the *******s, and leave the enlightened. Defense and hunting should be the goal in weapons preparation for the coming decade or two.

Verity,

You raise a good point. As a former fat guy, I can tell you, physical fitness will be paramount to survival. I tend to think that when the SHTF, however, lack of food, migration, and stress will do wonders for the obescity plague. If you are say, 100 pounds or less overweight, it only takes a few weeks of reduced caloric intake and increased physical activity to lose enough fat and build enough muscle mass to become reasonably fit. Hell, I lost ten pounds in two weeks by stopping my soda intake alone - PepsiCo, McDonalds, etc. probably won't have much of a business/distribution plan in place for the type of future all of us here expect. But you are right; those reading this thread now who are overweight should make the effort to become fit. Even if we are all wrong and the future is filled with peace, love, and teddy bears that shoot rainbows from thier eyes, they will live longer to enjoy it.

Thanks for the posts, and keep em' coming.

Shellie

10-03-2008, 04:59 PM

historycircus

10-03-2008, 05:15 PM

It is my understanding that once the body has metabolized its intake, and produced "fat," that fat can only be remetabolized if ingested - a most yucky proposition. Fat is lost in the fitness process, not remetabolized, i.e., you lose it, not use it. Mammals that store fat for hibernation use it for warmth, not sustinance. We are not a hibernating species, so excess fat only hampers ideal biological functions.

Swanny

10-03-2008, 05:26 PM

The fat people are going to struggle, but it's their own fault for over eating, or is it just because they are big boned?? :naughty:

Shellie

10-03-2008, 05:31 PM

I don't think it will be "fat" people who struggle, it will be those who are totally out of shape. There are lots of overweight people who are physically healthier, stronger, and have more stamina than skinny people.

Luigis Mushroom

10-03-2008, 05:31 PM

I don't suggest violence for the sake of violence, I suggest that defending fringe communities by sitting in one spot with a rifle is impossible and that certain tactics are necessary because otherwise you're just a target for some of the advanced artillery you mentioned.

The elements are no fun to deal with, but the best way to prepare is take a survival course, not read up on theories. I think that survival material is very prevalent in society today, you got Bear Grills and Survivorman on TV and numerous magazines and training courses available all over the United States. Anyone that wants to, in this time period right now, can learn how to handle the wilderness, you just need to actively learn it.

But one none of that teaches you is the unique situation we will be facing. In my original post, I stressed 3 things, 1. Awareness of the trespassers in your territory 2. Establishing relationships and communication with other settlers and safe zones 3. Helping other survivors to these safe zones.

We have a responsibility that for most of us will go beyond knowing how to survive the elements to helping as many other people as we can survive the elements. For 90% of people, defense will probably only be in regard to bandits and outlaws, and the PTB will be mostly focused on its own zones. However, defense against outlaws is still defense, and building camps in areas with no awareness, no friends, and no ammunition makes you a sitting duck.

My suggestions were not that we should take an offensive role, that's simply not the objective of project avalon, but that we should be prepared for the possibility of violence and no how respond appropriately, and the most effective ways are 1. Running away and 2. Ambushing. Defending yourself from your home base is not included on that list, and that is my main point about this.

historycircus

10-03-2008, 05:36 PM

I'm not sure I agree with the tone of your post. I agree that being overweight, suffering the resultant health problems, and having great difficulty if the SHTF should be viewed as a personal choice, and the overweight should own their mistakes.

With that being said, there are external factors that come into play, unrestrained and manipulative advertising, the addition of addictive chemical compounds, etc. have had their impact.

Ridicule is not what motivates people to change, and has no place on this thread.

Swanny

10-03-2008, 05:50 PM

With all the talk of IR tracking...

I'm curious what we should expect if marshall law were to become a reality? How much resolve would the authorities have in tracking us down? Given the numbers of deployed forces covering the entire populace of a country, would they have enough resources and desire to find all of us?

Metro areas should be fairly easy to contain, but what about rural areas?

In short, how concerned should we be?

Yea I wonder why anyone would bother tracking us down????
What would be the point in them doing that???
I have a stock of food and am able to defend myself from people that might want to take my food and water but why would a army/police force want to bother it's self with me???

Swanny

10-03-2008, 06:40 PM

Personally I intend to travel down to Cornwall and live in one of the many holiday homes there before finding myself a nice yacht :boat: and heading off to warmer climates :mf_rosetinted:

Hopefully the **** wont hit the fan before the end of April when it starts to warm up a bit :sweatdrop:
In the mean time I will carry on getting myself ready :boxing::winner_first_h4h:

historycircus

10-03-2008, 07:19 PM

I don't think individuals who make through will have much to worry about initially from the PTB - they'll have herds to manage, and in the middle of something terrible. The little fish who get through the net will not command much interest.

But here's the thing. When the dust settles from whatever may come, the PTB - if they manage to make it through to the other side, and actually remain the PTB - will have a vested interest, as always, in dominating the Earth's surface resources. Individuals who make it through, and remain isolated, won't be of any real consequence. But the COMMUNITIES that form, on the other hand, will be raising a new generation - probably with an ideology in direct opposition to whatever remains of the dominant power structure. That is where concerns about sattelite imaging and such come in. Hiding and confrontation will be the only options, and as I and others have stated before, confrontation will probably prove futile.

Kelle Baley

10-03-2008, 09:41 PM

You know, whatever predator of people is left will most likely have already chosen those they prefer in their cult to live 'ideally' underground. The enemy that lurks now are nefariously inspired humans as you are aware of. THey will not last long. This seems somewhat obvious if at all they actually do pull some dramas that the rest of the collective is forced to deal with economically.

The real and bigger issue will end in perhaps a decade or more from now -the cataclysmic effects of cosmic weather. They that devise to depopulate humanity are counting on the negative weather to wipe out the small colonies or people unprepared for such (explains most the underground cities).

Then, considerations for trade with those who have survived will begin. It will be a split in humanity..perhaps.

If not, we could all end up awakening on a level that one remembers fully personal and spiritual identity at the moment of the galactic crossing-after dec21, 2012 we will then experience the planet shift from planet X that because it is a brown dwarf smoldering not lighted sun, it will affect the earth as it passes through our solar system -this is a given. How will anyone hide from this? research the best source of this from the Gnostics via gnostic radio.com -all saturday talks on internet and free ipod download rss feeds. search out what they term planet X and call it Huron -they have records still that prove it happened many times. it is called the destroyer because it wipes away all deception from the astral field here and literally initiates the earth and the enlightened people here. You are correct in that you must prepare to survive these changes but inner preparation is the end all.

Becoming peaceful within is key to comprehending what is truth, period. Re-education can begin safely after this. if not, in this situation, survival on the surface without inner preparation is the ultimate in futility. Even the bible says that many ran to the caves and hill trying to escape these things of change that come and many were crushed inside the cities underground-built to escape the horrendous weather issue.

i have included a couple of links to see what I mean about learning more of the hidden historical to sense what comes and how to stand still to even know what is needed. While these vids may not seem more than a fictitious story, it is not. Also, it is understandably what we signed up for that has nothing to do with religion and i think comes from a source that left one of these illuminati cults. Remember that while you watch this (if you do) that it is a hidden inner view of history unfolding even now and that they whom are self proclaimed as the elite will fall into chaos -their plans and devices will not really work - that is why they are working day and night to force globally felt chaos. dont buy into any of it as thier time is short for being in power and they know it.
They are who kept all the higher knowledge hidden away from us while using many techniques to program each of us. you need to see the missing history lesson first. like the inter-terrestrials that live inside the earth that are humans (perhaps giants compared to us, but perfect DNA that are benevolent). They sent in the enlightened to help humanity ascend and then return back there to establish a new school of wisdom.

there are way more that are here and they are not all enemies.

try it! re-education takes only some observing while you gather supplies. you will be amazed. there are five parts of this series and they are all over an hour long. the following is the final two part video research about what that concerns us all.

part five -1 of 2
http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=legends+of+atlantis+5&emb=0#q=legends%20of%20atlantis%205&emb=0

part five 2 of 2
http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=legends+of+atlantis+5&emb=0#q=legends%20of%20atlantis%205&emb=0

the first one is this link;
part one movie;

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7380611327825391213

see the following as legend of atlantis part 1,2,3,4

Peer

10-03-2008, 09:42 PM

Untill now I saw only Verity mention the personal and physical thing.
I've seen guns mentioned but that requiers aming skills and the knowledge how to clean the weapon.
A dirty weapon is more dangerous to you as to the opponent so we'll have to learn those skills as well.
How to shoot a bow. I would not suggest compoundbows. They may have more power but also need more maintenance and once it's broken it's very hard to fix.
Give a compound bow to an unskilled archer and you may find it in pieces within a minute.
1000 rounds for each weapon is nice but heavy.
Once the amo is gone the gun is useless but arrows can always be made/reused.
So train yourself to hit a remote target, be it with a gun, a bow, a slingshot, a stone or a boomerang.
Be sure you can handle a sharp knive and learn how to sharpen it.
Once you killed a rabbit, can you skin it and prepare it?
Clean it, cook it, eat it, use the skin for clothing by cleaning and preparing it.
Learn how to use a stick to defend yourself so take aikido lessons.
Good for your skills, for your mind, for your physical condition.
These are things you can already learn now. if you have to learn them when the heat is on you are too late and the people who know it are too busy surviving to teach you.
They say hunger is a good teacher but what if you are a slow learner?
Spend your next holiday to learn how to survive in the outdoors instead of going to Hawaii or Turkey because there is still time.
Learn to shoot and maintain a bow. Learn how to make bowstrings and their several knots and splicetechnics. Learn how to make wooden arrows.
Learn how to recognize several birds by their feathers, shapes and calls, animals and their footprints.
Learn how to run like hell if you find a bears footprint :lol3:.
Learn how to fish, make rods, lines, hooks etc.
Realize that if we loose our civilization as we know it now and if we have to live in the open and if we will have to learn how to hunt again that that will not be for a certain amount of time.
Realize that there will not be a certain day that a message will come from headquarters telling us the good news that it's all over and that we can return to our happy homes again.
Realize that you have to build a new community, new city's, new schools.
Your iPod will not work anymore.
Music will be homemade and laws will no longer exist so new rules have to be made.
Realize that we will be in such a situation for at least a few generations and that you will not survive it, at least not see the new civilization and that you must trust the children that they will.

That's all for now

Sol Invictus

10-03-2008, 09:49 PM

Obesity epidemic.

Want to know a secret? It was manufactured by the powers that be. Think I am kidding you? Do some research through medical papers (if you have access) and look at the effect of monosodiumglutemate on the livers, kidneys and pancreas of test animals.

Oh and whilst your at it, look at the effects of their blood sugars and prevelance of diabetes.

Then think long and hard as to why if these toxic effects were know, was it allowed en mass into the human food chain.

Fat unhealthy mentally sedated people cannot run far or put up much oppostition.

Sol Invictus

10-03-2008, 09:54 PM

Peer,
:thumb_yello: now thats what i call a post! :winner_first_h4h:

People I meet out in the mountains often stop for a chat. Its amazing how setting up a bivvie on a mountain side, fire going and a brew on makes people feel 'safe'. Weird, but if I was sat there with nothing they would never stop to talk. My point being that they are curious as to why I am there. I explain a little (never too much) and have enetered into email discussions with a few of them.

I take this period as a time for learning, a time for deep reflection on whats within, and most importantly, a time to start letting go of what i think I need, and concentrating on what i know I will need in the future.

Peer

10-03-2008, 09:57 PM

Would you leave your too fat grandmother behind?
No you wouldn't.
You would push her rollerchair, cursing but pushing hard.
I know you would...:thumb_yello:

And yes, you will have time to think again.
And peace will come by itself then.
It will not be so bad for us as we think.
Anyway, I am not afraid because I will survive I know and I will not mind being burried under a great oaktree.

historycircus

10-03-2008, 10:04 PM

Good point on bows Peer. Bows and arrows will be a lot easier to replace/maintain if guns are not availiable. Here are some DIY sites:

http://www.primitiveways.com/sapling_bow.html
No pictures, but very detailed.

http://www.primitiveways.com/pt-composite_bow.html
Same site, diffrent bow, some pictures.

http://www.onagocag.com/knapping.html
This is a good site for stone flint knapping. It has some good links. Natural history museum book shops are also great resources for one wanting to learn this skill, and some of the best can be accessed online. The National Museum of Natural History, and the National Museum of the American Indian are two I reccomend. But, as many tribal societies discovered at the onset of the fur trade, metal is really where it is at. Thin pieces of copper or iron will probably be the way to go.

http://www.primitiveways.com/fletching_by_hand.html
I didn't want to leave out fletching - making your own arrow shafts - since I'd come this far. Also taken from the Primitive Ways site.

If anyone finds anything better than this please post.

Peer

10-03-2008, 10:10 PM

The good thing is that there will be enough game to hunt because pleasure hunting, the useless killing of animals just for the fun it will be over.

Sol Invictus

10-03-2008, 10:13 PM

Would you leave your too fat grandmother behind?

Yes.

Sorry but the brutal truth of it is that if she was wheel chair bound, the needs of the many out weigh the needs of the few.

Times coming will require movement over heavy terrain and in as much silence as possible. Granny? I love you but not that much.

As for the bows, I totally agree - best if you get practise in now, and avoid as stated the compound bow (illegal here in the Uk as they can penetrate UK spec Police body armour).

Peer

10-03-2008, 10:23 PM

It was more or less meant like a joke after your first post on obesitas.
Fortunately I don't have to worry about that anymore.
If it takes much longer they have to push my wheelchair or maybe I'll just stay put and stop a tank with it.

Peer

10-03-2008, 10:34 PM

Hey historycircus,
those are good sites.
I live at the german border and I know it 's very popular in germany to go out in the woods and live primitively (for a day or three) and play around with selfmade bows and do targetpracticing.
I used to be part of that scene (I was third on dutch archery-championships once) and we always tried to come as close to reality as possible.
I also have friends who make their own bows and they do really good jobs.
I myself have always been busy making bowstrings and fletching arrows.
I have no time for that anymore at the moment but the skill is still there.
Very good material is also bamboo: Cheap, fastgrowing, strong and longlasting.

Swanny

10-03-2008, 10:38 PM

I used to work in PNG as a rural water supply engineer
My advise to readers of this thread is set up a rain catchment system.
Rain water is great :thumb_yello:

What does PTB stand for??

historycircus

10-03-2008, 10:39 PM

Peer

10-03-2008, 10:44 PM

Ok I'll see what I can find but for now I am going to sleep, it's far after midnight here in the old world.

Sol Invictus

10-03-2008, 10:47 PM

Peer,

You sound like an expert! Can you contribute some more posts on Archery and the like? Whatever knowledge you have applies here, so spill it man! Remember, the info you share could save a life someday.

Thanks a lot Peer,

The HistoryCircus - because history is full of clowns.

I'll second that. Advice is always welcome from a man of talent (or lady).

Bamboo - now thats some thing I have used again and again to make fishing traps out of. Its amazingly effective as it can be sharpend to a point where it will slice flesh as easily as a steel blade.

historycircus

10-03-2008, 11:00 PM

PTB is simply shorthand here for "Powers that be." Sorry for the confusion - I realize I have been using it for a while.

What sort of rainwater collection systems do you recommend - beyond putting out a bucket in a thunderstorm? Are there systems you are familiar with, either commercial or homemade?

Swanny

10-03-2008, 11:11 PM

Any roof that has a guttering can be used to collect rainwater.
I would recommend getting some water butts and placing them under the downpipes from the gutter.
We used to make similar to southern cross water tanks and feed them from either church roofs or just a few sheets of corrugated iron. You can either link the butts together or just redirect the flow to each. I recommend using some type of cover that lets water through but stops crap like leaves, flies etc from contaminating the water. You can get a membrane that stops weeds from growing in your garden that is ok for this.
Hope this helps

Seva

10-03-2008, 11:55 PM

Maybe this is slightly off topic, but I've thought about the "obesity plague" and have wondered something strange; what if this "plague" is really a collective unconscious preparation for what is to come? After all, fat is the only all-natural famine insurance we have.

Dude maybe so, so in a way im carring my stocked food supplies "on me"? I heard someone way once it was a way for us to ground, to get the munchies more ect. But it might be a subconscious was of preparing even if our minds cant really grasp whats comming.

This thread rocks BTW i know effort has to be put into maintaining exhistance and sititng in a circle singing Cum By Ya will only go so far LOL

Seva

10-04-2008, 12:02 AM

You mean like a hobbit house?

http://blissful.co.nz/blog/archives/2004_04_21st_century_hobbit_house.php

http://www.greenhomebuilding.com/index.htm

That is amazing I had a dream a littlee over a month ago about partially underground homes that were interconnected. Above ground was like your garden\play with streams of water around them while semi-below was your homes. The other thing in the dream was you had a central kitchen,living & greenhouse area which then branched off to the living areas. In this dream they were dome or round type housing was the only difference. Very strange dream indeed but it was so vivid. Still don't know what purpose it served as according to the maps of global changes or polar shift my area would be underwater or too close to risk it.

Sol Invictus

10-04-2008, 12:05 AM

Actually, fatty deposits are a bad source of energy for the body. The body would rather metabolise muscle tissue for energy as it is far far more efficient, and fat cannot be converted into carbohydrates either...

Ask your Dr or Nurse about it, and they will show you or tell you why this is so - its all about glycogen storage and ATP production for use as the cellular energy source. (unless its red blood cells then they need direct glucose transport for energy, as does the brain.

Luigis Mushroom

10-04-2008, 02:02 AM

Yeah I don't think we should confuse being a society programmed to eat unhealthy foods as our unconscious minds preparing us for hard times.

bosr

10-04-2008, 04:26 AM

Here is a very nice source of survival information. I especially like the Bow Bed (http://wildwoodsurvival.com/survival/furniture/bowsbushbed/index.html)

http://wildwoodsurvival.com

Fun 4U Leader

10-04-2008, 10:42 AM

"I would like to teach online but was alien contacted and told by a very big unkind and dark individual being (I sensed reptilian) that much mischief would befall my experiment via other vessels not as capable as I should I actually attempt such a class online. I did suddenly realize that the only way to act and get the same results was to meet in a group of only three, hold formal meditation and reach people in the third chakra without going the live feed. It is best if done at the same time each day but truthfully, my inner counsel says that our vessels can overcome the space time separation by honoring the freedom to hold that space with others linked into strong meditation with the personal intent to then increase your skills internally to the order described above. We will both have real time mind-link space shared third chakrally and more that cannot be described. Keep in mind that the more you practice empowering personal space the more invincible you instantly become. I am at your service and i will see any of you within when it serves you.
__________________
MariGaia"

Thanks! This is important information and why I am convinced that conventional wisdom will need to change in these times so that this positive energy can be applied in these "Safe Place" communities. TPB will be focused (at least initially) on the haters who are armed to the teeth, one opportunity away from insurgent/terrorist actions. We must insist on appearing harmless as well as being positive. More on that in late posts.

As a Spirit filled Christian for decades, I have prayed daily, loud and long, but rarely listened. Over recent months, I have grown tired of overlooking the many distortions and contradicting behavior, and sought a divergent path toward the light. I have only recently started Meditation which has had no noticable changes as yet. Ever since I was very young, I have wanted to be a healer and only now am looking earnestly toward Reiki. I expect good things to come. I would be interested in more of what you have to say.

I also have more to say soon on this thread, but not on this subject directly.

For the cause!

Peer

10-04-2008, 12:21 PM

How to make traditional bowstrings:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24-J-RpbxFo

Peer

10-04-2008, 12:35 PM

We'll need Stirling engines because they can operate on solar-energy and using hollow mirrors as described in the solar-cookersthread it can drive generators to produce electricity.

http://library.thinkquest.org/C006011/english/sites/stirling.php3?v=2

Peer

10-04-2008, 01:17 PM

We'll need to plant and grow hemp.

Did you know that before 1937 every farmer in the US was forced by law to grow a certain amount of hemp?
It produces about 4 times as much fibers every year as the same amount of wood in about 30 years.

You can make clothes that feel soft like silk and last 5 times as long as cotton without the polution cotton causes.
You can make paper out of it that is whiter and stronger than any wood produces.
The oil from hemp cures cancer, erases scars from old wounds and cures many other diseases.

From the oil of the hempseeds you can produce plastics and biofuel for engines.
Did you know that the worldfamous T-ford was partly made from plastic produced from hempseed-oil?
That it ran on hempseed-oil?
That these plastics were stronger than steel and biologically degradeble and recycleble?

Hemp doesn't exhaust the soil, on the contrary: You can use the soil year after year and it gets better and better.

Now why isn't hemp used anymore?

In 1937 Dupont invented plastics made out of earth-oil.
The petro-chemical industry had to get rid of its greatest rival: Hemp.
So they renamed it into Marihuana, started a huge propaganda-campaign that it was the youth's worst enemy and lobbied untill there was a law that forbade the growth and use of Marihuana.

Only after this law was passed people discovered that Marihuana actually was hemp and that a huge source of good things was stolen away from them because of the greed of a few.
Where or when have I heard this story before? Or after?

Actually in one campaign it was said that Marihuana made the youth passive so they would fall asleep and that it was the biggest enemy of the "American dream" and in another campaign it was stated that it was supposed to make the youth very agressive and that it would lead to total chaos and war.....

One thing is sure:
If the same amount of hemp was grown in the USA as it was before 1937 all the fuel-, health- and environmental problems would be solved within a year.

No rainforest was needed anymore, no need anymore for expensive chemical medicines.

But that would give us another problem wouldn't it?

Natoka

10-04-2008, 09:51 PM

What a thread! Here's a link for those who are inclined to make the tools needed after all the high tech supplies have 'expired'. Covers the areas from music, household, weaponry and so very much more.

URL="http://paleoplanet69529.yuku.com/directory" Cut and paste if I didn't get it right.

Natoka

historycircus

10-04-2008, 10:55 PM

Thanks Nakota - I'll check that site out as soon as I have time.

As for Peer's comments on hemp - I'm in 100% agreement. It can also be used as an alternative fuel. A great book that documents the very historical dicline that Peer discusses in his post is called "The Emperer Wears No Clothes" by Jack Herer. His book is the standard.

Sol Invictus

10-04-2008, 11:34 PM

Hemp.

Natures very own 'miracle mile' gift to us.

Fuel, medicines, clothes, you name it hemp can do it cheaply, efficiently and all the time keeping the soil in tip top condition because it doesn't just take take take from the soil, it gives back, making its habitat stronger each passing year.

I hope in times ahead we will see miles upon miles of this growing freely in fields with nervous laughter when we look back at the sheer naked greed of the plastics industry aka petrochemical stasi.

Peer

10-05-2008, 12:08 PM

And you don't get addicted.
After almost 40 years of smoking it I just quit from one day to another and never had any addiction symptoms.

Peer

10-05-2008, 01:12 PM

On bows:
There are a lot of sites about bowbuilding but many are about traditional (=longbow) bows.
I prefer the recurve bow because it is much faster, smaller, much easier to handle and to draw than the slow and backbreaking longbow.
Also the power of the bow is often exaggerated.
Big guys want to draw 60 or 80 pound bows.
(The drawing weight is measured at 28# drawing length).
As it is ridiculous to hunt for little game on a distance of more than about 15-25 metres no such drawingweight is required.
A 35-50 pnd bow will do fine and if you put on a razorhead point it will penetrate a bullitproof vest on about 25 metres as well.
Much easier (and cheaper) than building your own bow you can buy Korean (Samick) huntingbows for a very reasonable prize.
Some bows you buy for $ 50-$ 100.
Remember you don't want to be the worlds Archerychampion but you want to get yourself a rabbit a day and if nessecary be able to "shoot it from the hip" and that requires a completely different skill.
And it may seem a joke but last summer I practiced shooting sitting in my lazy chair but that is not so funny as it seems as you sometimes must be able to shoot laying on a big branch of a tree.

http://picasaweb.google.nl/peervanderhout/Targetpracticing?authkey=WElPSfQQgdU

You can see the longbow my friend is shooting is not half as comfortable as my shorter recurve and although my friend draws about 10 Lbs more my arrow is faster (we tested that with an electronic device).
The beercan I hold between my thighs shows that targetpracticing should be fun.
If it is not your thing don't do it but if it attracts you go ahaed and you'll have a wonderfull sport untill you need the skill in a practical way.
The two video's also show the difference between the comfort of a recurve bow and the longbow

There are also very good american huntingbows so check out this site:
http://www.beararcheryproducts.com/

Here you can see what a bow is capable of. This is no trick.
Talking about accuracy. Also look at the arrow in flight in slow motion.
See the vibration and the bending?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZcNY2t0h-HE

On the other hand you wouldn't be able to move in the forest with that equipment but hitting an egg at 30-40 metres without site and stabilisors is no exeption.
I have seen arrows being split by the second one many times.

Ok for now.

davefla73

10-05-2008, 04:14 PM

here is one of the best links to survial in all conditions urban outdoor, everything CHECK IT OUT! http://www.endtimesreport.com

unloadedgunn

10-05-2008, 05:19 PM

Peer

10-05-2008, 07:17 PM

You got some good ideas there UG.
I've been thinking about that as well and exept for the firearms I agree.
In the US you can buy firearms on every streetcorner but here in Europe it is hard for averige people to get a gun, let alone enough rounds of amo and as I stated before: A bad maintained gun is more dangerous to yourself than to an opponent.
Situating a community near water or a well is almost a must there you're totally right and of course the builders, crafters, trackers etc.
Guys (or girls) that can build transmitters from old PCs or televisions, people who know how things work.
These are good sites:http://howthingswork.virginia.edu/
Lots of fun too.

historycircus

10-05-2008, 08:57 PM

Great thread here. I have synthesized a few different "earth changes" maps I have found on the internet, and combined this with my gut feelings about what lies ahead. I have already decided where I will be relocating to, and my present house is on the market as we speak, or as we post :original:

As a builder with over 25 years experience building in a very "green" and progressive state I have come up with what I think is a very good and inexpensive design for an earth sheltered house. This is the ONLY way to go for many reasons, not the least of which is that the ambient ground temp. makes it easy to heat and cool.

I agree with previous post about the governments' ability to surveil. But one variable is that with so much chaos and societal meltdown in the urban centers, how many years do you think it will take the PTB to get to the little isolated communities which are self sustaining, and pose no problem? It might never happen in fact. I see "getting back to the woods" as a way to weather the storm. Who knows, in a decade or so the PTB might loose its steam due to military desertions, bad moral, change in the political agenda, anything could change the course of events. I certainly DO NOT plan on rounding up my family and getting a free ride to a FEMA camp, and will wait quietly to see where the chips fall.

I think that talk of bows and arrows is crazy (no disrespect intended). When you and your loved ones are barely eking out a living and you are trying to provide food I think a firearm is the only way to go, that said, it is true that the bovine ensephalitis which has infected wild deer and elk herds, makes trapping, snaring, smaller mammals and birds a better choice. Wildcrafting herbs for food and medicine will be necessary as well. Regardless of a "nuclear winter" scenario, mother nature is pretty resilient, and will always provide for those willing to look.

Gun shows, last I knew were a great place to purchase arms without going through the permitting process.

Earth roofs are a great means of evading detection from satelites.

This minimal visual footprint approach eliminates the ability to have solar panels (as they would be very visible), so be prepared to really rough it if you use that approach.

Collecting rain water is good, but anyone serious about a small community had better be serious about locating it around WATER. A couple of hours with a backhoe and some concrete well tiles, and you've got an artesian well for about 1K. The beauty of this is you don't need to have a submersible pump. You can use a low voltage DC (solar) pump or even mount a old school cast iron handle on your community well.

Clusters of houses allow you to have shared utilities like solar arrays, outhouses, wells, septic, gardens, generator, greenhouse etc. This also allows somewhat for specialties. You might have an electrician, a builder, some people with green thumbs, a tracker, a wildcrafter, potter...you get the idea. The problem is times a wastin'. This financial collapse, though not a surprise was pretty precipitous, and will leave many folks without the means or the time to prepare for what is coming.

I could go on forever. This is a good topic and has made me rethink some of my plans. I will be looking into military camouflage fabric and whether it would alow enough light transfer to photovoltaic panels. I think the bottom line is COMMUNITY. I agree that foreign UN troops will be more willing to shoot at Americans, but a close knit independent group is bound to be left alone. Worst case scenario is that the first few might fall, but it will be this exact thing which causes the low moral/desertions. Look no further back than Vietnam or even Iraq to see that this kind of unjust genocidal conflict foments dissension in the ranks.

I hope some of us take this beyond the discussion stage, and start walking the walk, because the fate of homo sapiens lies in the balance.

Hey unloaded,

I can't agree with you more in many respects. The only disagreement I have is your dismissal of the bow - there are many folks out there who will not have firearms, who will hit the road and survive. It is going to be pretty hard for these folks to hunt and defend themselves with nothing, and you can't manufacture a twelve-gauge out of saplings. The bow may be the only choice these folks have to make it, and I think that info has its place here.

I do think, however, while one still can, acquiring a firearm and amunition, and learning how to use them is really a good idea. They need to forget the brainwashing - guns are tools, nothing more. They are not evil, and you are not a bad person for owning one. Someone who knows nothing about them needs to learn, and quick. People who are uncomfortable with them need to GET comfortable soon.

I, too, think the wild is the way to go. But think about the people who have brought us to the brink of disaster. Was Iraq the most efficient way to get access to oil and bring down Saddam? NO. They are madmen, and it is all about control - flexing one's might as an act of juvenile, schoolyard dominance. I think that as time goes by, these folks will not tolerate anyone existing outside of their sphere of control - no matter how inconsequential these communites may be in terms of opposing their agendas. If the PTB make it to the other side of whatever comes, unchanged in philosophy, those who exist outside of their control will be targets. Stealth must be a priority for those who have already established safe zones, and for those who will do so in the future.

It sounds like many here are taking it beyond discussion, but with this format, discussion is all we got. I thank you for your contribution, and anything you can add is GREATLY appreciated. Please post all that you know.

ON RAINWATER COLLECTION: For those who may find themselves in a situation where the guttering of traditional housing is not applicable, are there any designs for a boonie system for free, or anything commercial? Will it come down to plastic dropcloths above rotating buckets? And again, I agree with unloaded - locating these safe zones as close to freshwater as possible will be key. But there is no shame in harnessing what comes from the sky.

unloadedgunn

10-05-2008, 10:42 PM

Well I will concede that a bow which could penetrate a bullet-proof vest (quietly) would make be great at protecting ones interests. Better for protection than hunting, and of course in places where guns are illegal then bows are the only way to go.

I plan to buy a fairly large tract of land in an area where building codes are relatively nonexistent. I hope that when that time comes that there will be some people here who are ready to DO. Let's face it folks, even if none of the "worst case scenarios" ever comes to fruition. The system is totally corrupt, and built to fail and steal every man's, woman's, and child's sovereignty, wealth, dignity, etc.... so let's get out of it!!!

historycircus

10-05-2008, 10:49 PM

Agreed. An honest man or woman has no place in the system that exists.

unloadedgunn

10-05-2008, 10:57 PM

One thing I forgot to bring up in the last post... I have done some research into the possible earth changes. Whether caused by the galactic equinox, or the approach of planet-X, I think that a geographic pole-shift is in the cards. For that reason, a passive solar house which provides much of the energy needed to heat FOR FREE will be extremely hard to site, because the earth will be like a giant roulette wheel, "where she stops nobody knows".

Has anyone ever seen a website/book which has predicted the eventual location of the poles based on past events, or future (2012) planetary alignments?

I am listening to Michael Tsarion right now, and appropriately enough he is talking about letting go of fears and desires, simplifying, and "getting rid of dead weight". Gives new meaning to the term "enlightenment" doesn't it?

Tez

10-05-2008, 11:51 PM

Hi there,
I had been on 2012Forum regularly before the avalon site came up, and have posted quite a bit there over time, under the How to Survive" thread.
The posts are still up, and all downloads can be accessed from this area - a bit too many to relist here, but can do if needed in a single post.

http://www.2012forum.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=10

A lot of the downloads are at Rapidshare.

Tez

historycircus

10-06-2008, 12:55 AM

A RUDIMENTARY LESSON IN 4-10 SHOTGUNS
Base on the personal experience and opinions of the HistoryCircus

4-10 shotguns are an incredible resource for the hunter. I’ll spare you the details about the gauge, shot size, etc. I’ll just give you what works for me, and how I am planning to prepare to hunt my own food, and defend my people if need be.

4-10:
http://www.prosefights.org/msd/shotgun/shotgun.jpg
This is basic – all one really needs (The old guy is not me by the way).

The most common ammunition (called “buckshot”) looks like this:

http://www.4-10.freeuk.com/buck410shells.jpg

There are a plethora of different guns, and properly gauged ammunition. The shells above spray a wave of small lead pellets toward the target. You can buy single projectiles to shoot (not small pellets, a single bullet), and they typically look like this:

http://images.cabelas.com/is/image/cabelas/s7_212291_imageset_01?$main-Medium$

They are commonly called “slugs,” and shoot one single projectile (like a rifle or pistol) instead of a bunch of small lead pellets. Quite frankly, and this is my opinion, “slugs” are for killing people – hunting turkey, pheasant, etc. does not require the precision necessitated by launching such a projectile. Nevertheless, keep both types of ammunition on hand, and put much more emphasis on buckshot than slugs.

A 4-10 is a fowling piece. You will kill a deer or a moose if you manage to sneak up on them, get the barrel right in their face, and shoot point-blank. There are moose and deer in North America that even the best 4-10, at fifty feet, will only bounce off of their skin. The 4-10 is not a big animal gun. It is for birds.

For all birds, shoot for the head. For anyone here, once you practice – and while time allows, dear god, you need to go to the woods or the nearest range and practice – you will find the 4-10 the most accurate, distance shooting shotgun in existence. It is the perfect turkey gun, but all birds, in a pinch, can be eaten.

PRICES AND RULES:

Brand new, all guns can be pricy. Wal-Mart wants $500+ for their models. You can find them in pawn shops cheaper. The cheapest is a private sale – some of the cheapest I have found have been through www.craigslist.com, and other classified sites. You don’t have to register shotguns in any state in the United States – other places may vary (especially the UK). You can show up at the seller’s house, put out cash, and drive home with it. Be aware, if you have been convicted in the United States of a felony charge – even if it is non-violent – you can be prosecuted for owning a shotgun. If you are a reformed criminal who has truly changed, that does not matter. You can’t vote either – go figure.

Anyway, the 4-10 shotgun is the best bird-hunting gun on the market.

R.Z.

10-06-2008, 01:06 AM

No pictures showing above (yet, anyway) - H.Circus ...

Please clarify -

A 10 gauge (the largest gauge for which ammo is commercially available) has a bore diameter of .77 inches.

A 410 shotgun (the smallest shotgun) has a bore diameter of .41 inches.

BIG difference.

Also - Craigslist actively deletes gun listing when they are reported.

And to Unloaded's post - most gun shows now require permitting if purchasing through a vendor, but private sales on-site are a different story.

historycircus

10-06-2008, 01:09 AM

Sorry, I can't figure out how to get images on here. Still trying to figure it out, and edit appropriately.

bosr

10-06-2008, 01:39 AM

4-10 is light gauge shotgun.
10 gauge is a much bigger load.
I have seen slugs bounce off of targets without doing any damage.
http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/learning/hunter_education/homestudy/redoimages/sggauge.gif

I would suggest that you stay with .12 ga as the ammo is commonly available and if you run out of ammo you will have an easier time finding it.

In most states purchase of ANY gun requires a background check if purchased through a dealer operating under a federal firearms license (FFL).

It is legal to purchase from any individual (Non-FFL) without going through a background check or licensing procedure. Unless you are a felon.

Personal Opinion:
The entire concept of gun registration is the most absurdly stupid idea I have ever seen. I have been to gun shows where licensed dealers have display tables next to non licensed enthusiasts. The dealers are required to do the background checks, etc. while the guy right next to him does not. Please tell me this is not a government run operation.:lmfao:

historycircus

10-06-2008, 01:47 AM

4-10 all the way - my haste made waste. Thanks for the correction. I have edited the earlier post so as not to confuse anyone taking notes. For the record, in my earlier post on the 4-10 shotgun, I confused it narratively with the 10 gauge, but have changed the earlier post. It is the 4-10 I recommend as the premier fowling piece. Again, thanks R.Z. - I call super brain fart on that one.

In the early days of Craig's list, I saw many types of gun for sale - the change must have have been within the last two years or so. Nevertheless, I just went on Craig's list, and noticed the gun entries were no longer there.

However - plow through the barter sections - they are still there. 4-10s specifically, no, as I only spent a few minutes there, but guns in general yes. There might be a 4-10 there.

But, there are a host of other web sites that a simple google search will turn up - I did a quick search, and found many. The most important resource one might take advantage of is pawn shops. They will have the cheapest prices. Gun shows will also have cheap prices, and shotgun and rifle transactions can be made a lot easier in that venue than handguns.

Still trying to get those pictures up.

bosr

10-06-2008, 01:57 AM

shotgun and rifle transactions can be made a lot easier in that venue than handguns.

Handguns typically have a mandatory waiting period unless you have a state issued concealed weapon permit. If you don't have a conceal permit, get one.

Just a reminder, do NOT alter your gun unless you know the regulations. You can very easily find yourself with a free vacation courtesy of the ATF.

historycircus

10-06-2008, 03:25 AM

I'll say more on this later, but I think hand guns are kind of pointless. They are not the optimum hunting weapon, nor are they the optimum combat weapon. They are close-quarters combat weapons, and in many ways, a status-symbol holdout from the nineteenth century. They'll get you out of the city - which make them a worthwhile consideration - but they won't keep you fed.

bosr

10-06-2008, 03:58 AM

I would argue that after dropping your long gun while climbing a tree to avoid being eaten by a bear that you would be very open to having a hand gun for survival.

truthhound

10-06-2008, 04:24 AM

Anyone looking to quickly relocate to a rural wonderland next to a lake and a river in Arkansas? I can help you find long term accommodations that can be worry free if you can pay a year rent up front...with all that cash you have in the Bank of Posturpedic.

sadly, people here are still clueless...blind to what is coming...but we are salt of the earth simple folks ...people can hunt, fish, very resourceful, lots of land and trees and camping options...housing of all kinds from the riverside cabin to the economy studio...to just straight camping facilities. The reason for all of the excess lodging is that we are a tourist town in the summer months.

i just want city dwellers to know that a place like this feels right for hunkering down...if you come now you can find a place and just fit right in...we are a dry county, mostly older and families 7k people in our town...92% white folks around here...and lots of guns, normally only used for hunting and target practice. We are not as rural as you can get but you can get to nowhere from here.

your travel agent...for the big earth change adventure 2008!

let me know if you would like more information.

efields

10-06-2008, 04:56 AM

'They' have a suspected 'number' in mind, and thats 500 million people world wide.

500,000,000. Thats a figure that is thought to be a 'stabilised' amount for the earth to cope with.

Now, will they let 'us rot'? For certain they will, thats why soon will come the time of the small well hidden village that is totally self sustainable.

Funny, '500 million' is the number Billy Meier mentioned that the Plejaeren told him was the maximum number that the earth should be supporting. I wonder if 'they' read his material and value it more that we realize?:mfr_omg:

Sol Invictus

10-06-2008, 05:02 AM

500 million, not a soul more is what they want, and they aim to get it too.

Now this figure was first bandied about in the early 1960's when the worlds population was creeping past its third billion. Now it looks like we are going to have to see when their 'breaking point' will be.

historycircus

10-08-2008, 01:10 AM

How does the Iron Mountain report square with that? Didn't that figure go as high as a third? Either way - scary stuff if it is true. To think that there are those who think like that.

Sol - I'm not saying that handguns are useless, but just like all tools, they are made for specific jobs. I chose to discuss the 4-10 because it is the shotgun I am most familiar with and had the most success with hunting birds. I think anyone making such an investment, both in money to acquire them and time to learn how to use them properly, should plan on having multiple guns and plenty of ammo for all. I am hoping some other experts on these matters will contribute for those that don't know.

More to come . . .

Dantheman62

10-08-2008, 02:26 AM

I own a 4/10 shotgun and it folds in half and very useful, carry around anything bigger for a day and you wish you had another choice, that's where a handgun comes in, as far as bamboo in U.S., good luck. I know that winter is actually better for fishing and easier to hunt animals.Best thing overall for multiple uses is a roll of plastic, catching rain water and shelter and can be used over and over again.Surviving is fairly easy unless you were raised in the city!, one of the best posts here is the one about being out of shape, that's where only the strong will survive.And to PEER, hunting is necessary, not just for fun!, if people didn't hunt deer for example, thousands of them would just die from starvation in the winter, hunting keeps herds down to a number than can live on the food thats available.

historycircus

10-08-2008, 03:59 PM

SHELTER FROM NATURE

Native Americans of North America had housing that was designed to accommodate many people, and be assembled and dismantled easily. Thanks to them, we have numerous models to consider from a multitude of different environments. These shelters could do in pinch, and can be constructed from what you find around you. Granted, they won’t stand up to five hundred mile an hour winds, but barring that, they might be well considered for a winter layover in the wilderness. Many reading this might not be able to lug tents around, nor will most commercial tents of reasonable price be ideal for winter quartering. Native American housing will allow for thicker walls, the accommodation of many people, and a hearth fire within the enclosure.

Here is a kids’ site – no directions for building, but there are images of several different types of lodging.

http://www.native-languages.org/houses.htm

This next site is designed for people trying to put together boy scout activities. I am posting the teepee page, but there is so much more on this site. It has step by step, detailed directions for building teepees, rush mats, skin coverings, etc. It is a big site with much to explore, and note the books that the guy has posted – a lot of information on building shelter from natural surroundings.

http://www.inquiry.net/outdoor/shelter/tepee.htm

Here are some books:

Pocket Guide to Field Dressing Game by Ron Cordes, Steve Gilbert, and Gilbert Cordes

Field Dressing and Butchering Upland Birds, Waterfowl, and Wild Turkeys by Monte Burch

The Complete Book of Tanning Skins and Furs by James E. Churchill

Field Dressing and Butchering Big Game: Step-by-Step Instructions, from Field to Table by Monte Burch

Field Dressing and Butchering Deer: Step-by-Step Instructions, from Field to Table by Monte Burch

Field Dressing and Butchering Rabbits, Squirrels, and Other Small Game by Monte Burch

Preparing Fish & Wild Game: The Complete Photo Guide to Cleaning and Cooking Your Wild Harvest by Editors of creative Publishing

The Ultimate Guide to Skinning and Tanning: A Complete Guide to Working with Pelts, Fur, and Leather by Monte Burch

Hope some of that helps – and I welcome any additional advice/specifics on housing or skin preparation.

Peer

10-08-2008, 04:15 PM

Hai Dan,
I agree hunting is nessecary but no more than you need, no more than you can eat.
The idea that it is nessecary because they otherwise would starve in winter is turning things upside down.
Why didn't they starve before mankind had firearms?
I've heard these story's before and it is nonsense.
Nature will rule itself and doesn't need the white man's infinite wisdom.

What's more important is:
When you have shot an animal, be it rabbit or elk do you know how to skin it?
What to do with the skin?
Will you use the liver and kidney's
What can we make out of the guts and the tendons or will we leave them there to rot and eventually contaminate a watersource or attract foxes, wolves, bears and wolverines?

Absolute nono's:
Aftershave, soap (perfumed or not).
No chewing-gum.
It will take about 3-4 days for your smell to become "natural" and by natural I mean non-chemical and you will not scare animals away by your strange "non-forest" smell.
Many soldiers died in Vietnam because the VC detected them by the smell of their aftershave and their chewing-gum and they themselves were packed in such a cloud of chemical smell that they wouldn't detect a pile of elephantdung if they stood in it.
No shaving cause a beard is good camouflage.
No talking.
By talking you don't hear the birdsounds changing.
Ever heard birdsounds changing when you were walking in the forest?
They see you and warn each other.
Every animal hears it too and detects you long before you detect the animal.
Listen to the birds and if they suddenly become silent be very attentive because it might mean there is another hunter nearby and you yourself are probably the prey.

Dantheman62

10-08-2008, 05:04 PM

kamchadon

10-08-2008, 06:14 PM

Dantheman62

10-08-2008, 06:33 PM

Thanks for this thread! Great information from everyone.

I have a question though--->
For those of us here in the US on the East Coast who are living check to check, hand to mouth. When do we stop paying the bills and start using the little money we have on Survival Supplies, i.e dried meats, canned goods, water, and protection?

I have been taking a small piece of my grocery budget to buy more canned goods, but I do not have anyway of purchasing a 6 month supply.

Any suggestions is greatly appreciated.
Hey k, there is no real way of knowing when, just keep a very close eye on the news and such and if need be run to the store quickly. For now it sounds like you're doing the right thing, alittle at a time and don't forget dehydrated stuff too. I know if I have to I'll break into the store if need be,just to survive.

kamchadon

10-08-2008, 06:37 PM

Thanks Dan!

I will keep doing it a little at a time. If I think of anything else that can benefit others who are on a tight budget, I will be sure to add to the thread/discussion.

Peace & Light
Kam

Dantheman62

10-08-2008, 06:45 PM

I'm actually unemployed and just about broke so like I said, if I have to go to extremes I will, but growing up in minnesota has prepared me to pretty much survive on the land.

Peer

10-08-2008, 07:19 PM

If I could ever make it back to northern Minnesota in the event of some disaster, there's more deer,rabbit,squirrels,and all kinds of birds than you know what to do with! The fishing is excellent and easy, and there is still land which is almost untouched by man. The only drawback of going to MN. is it gets extremely cold in the winter, like -20 degrees below zero for days on end. I know all this because I grew up there and also left there when I was 18(way to cold) and moved to Florida. But I am experienced in the wildlife and fishing there, after all it is the land of 10,000 lakes!(state motto) P.S. Squirrel tastes exactly like chicken! and If I knew I was going to a cold climate I wouldn't need the skins of animals because I'd already have coats, sweaters,gloves, and all needed items to stay warm so I don't think we would have to resort to extreme primitive means, unlike the indians and settlers of old had to. P.S.,P.S. I like you're quote about the queens english, funny!

Hai Dan,
I am sure you'll have the right equipment for you.
But what about if the problems outlast your gear?
What if children are born?
I don't suppose you'll go into the nearest shopping mall and get yourself 15 boxes of pampers and get back into the forest again.
If things become so bad that we have to rely on wildlife it is not going to be for a few weeks or a year.
It will be for generations then.

If you hear Naomi Wolfe stating that the administration of G.W.(W.W.worldwidewar)B. is preparing for a fascist policestate it will never be the same afterwards.
We here in Europe have seen what a war will do to a country.
When the Germans were finished with Rotterdam there was nothing left.
When the English and Americans were finished with Stuttgart there were only a few walls left standing.
And that was nothing compared to what is possible now.
If America gets involved in a civil war (not unlikely with a president who likes to see himself as a dictator) the chance of being thrown back into the middleages isn't unthinkable.
If another CIA-orchestrated attack like 9-11 should take place you will be confronted with martial law and it will probably be nuclear so the area involved will be impassible for the next century's.
Do wonder what the first brigade is doing on American soil right now.
I wonder if there will be elections in November.
I wonder if we will be able to make our planned trip to the USA in November.

And about the Queens English: You're the first one to mention it. :mfr_lol:

historycircus

10-08-2008, 07:34 PM

Peer has just raised a point that needs to be carefully considered by any who post here about hunting and other "how to" survivalist topics.

Whatever is coming down the pike - if anything - our dependence upon natural resources needs to be tempered by first appreciation, and secondly by the understanding that reliance upon nature for our survival may indeed be a multi-generational situation. Wise and efficient resource use should be the goal. After all, it is excess, greed, and carelessness that has brought us to this point in the first place. That is why in the present and the future, the camper's motto is so important: try to leave your site a better place than it was when you found it.

Peer has also asked "what if children are born?" I started this thread with the assumption that children will be around in these communities from the beginning - it is that circumstance that served as the catalyst for starting this thread . . . to exchange ideas that ensure the next generation's safety and survival.

Wise words Peer, and let's live by them, now, and in the times to come.

Dantheman62

10-09-2008, 02:16 AM

Hai Dan,
I am sure you'll have the right equipment for you.
But what about if the problems outlast your gear?
What if children are born?
I don't suppose you'll go into the nearest shopping mall and get yourself 15 boxes of pampers and get back into the forest again.
If things become so bad that we have to rely on wildlife it is not going to be for a few weeks or a year.
It will be for generations then.

If you hear Naomi Wolfe stating that the administration of G.W.(W.W.worldwidewar)B. is preparing for a fascist policestate it will never be the same afterwards.
We here in Europe have seen what a war will do to a country.
When the Germans were finished with Rotterdam there was nothing left.
When the English and Americans were finished with Stuttgart there were only a few walls left standing.
And that was nothing compared to what is possible now.
If America gets involved in a civil war (not unlikely with a president who likes to see himself as a dictator) the chance of being thrown back into the middleages isn't unthinkable.
If another CIA-orchestrated attack like 9-11 should take place you will be confronted with martial law and it will probably be nuclear so the area involved will be impassible for the next century's.
Do wonder what the first brigade is doing on American soil right now.
I wonder if there will be elections in November.
I wonder if we will be able to make our planned trip to the USA in November.

And about the Queens English: You're the first one to mention it. :mfr_lol:
Good point PEER!, I forgot about the little rugrats, I mean children LOL!, I'm single,46, and no kids so I wasn't thinking,(smoke another one Dan). I guess I'll have to skin the deer and tan the hides and wrap the little buggers up! Anyway, I like the idea of the old indian teepees, easy to make and very transportable. And having a big roll of construction plastic will be put to many uses like water catcher,shelter,wrapping meat, and for keeping things dry.

Peer

10-09-2008, 08:37 PM

Teepee is a good thing 'cause you can burn a fire inside.
There is an Indian (sorry dear natives) way of preserving meat and that is wrapping it up in certain herbs and dry it.
It feels like leather but tastes good and you only need half of the amount you normally would consume. Alas I don't know exactly how it is done. (pemican)
Mayby somebody else knows?

I am so lucky to live in a small village where we have a brewery with its own source.
They used to provide water for the whole village untill the official watersupply took over but they would be able to provide again.
And of course they have their way to preserve the water by adding some yeast, hops and malt so surviving here will be not such a big problem.:mfr_lol::offtopic:

historycircus

10-09-2008, 10:16 PM

Peer, I just checked the thread, and all this talk of beer and pemmican is making me hungry!:mfr_lol:

Pemmican is essentially powdered jerky. For those that don't know how to make either, let me explain. You take slices of meat about a quarter inch thick, and dry them on racks above a low fire. In an ideal situation, you would let the meat soak in saltwater for a bit, and maybe add some spices. You check it often, making sure that is not cooking - basically just dehydrating. When its done, you can grind it up - a mort and pestle would be ideal, smooshing the bejeezus out of it between two rocks will work - into a powder. This powder can be injested straight, or mixed with fresh animal fat or water for a hot meal. French fur traders lived off of pemmican, as large amounts of powder and jerky can be stowed for travel. Its lightweight and supplies the body's protien.

Mobile groups won't need to worry, for whatever reason, about brewing beer. But stationary folks might want to brush up on beer and winemaking - if anything, it could become an incredible exchange commodity. Does anyone here want to give this thread some advice on brewing wine and spirits?

Dantheman62

10-09-2008, 11:58 PM

Hey guys, my parents used to make wine and I think I can get the recipe, I think it's very easy, just takes alot of sugar and yeast and some kind of fruit that you want, I remember it being very good because of course I had to steal some when I was a kid!

historycircus

10-10-2008, 12:43 AM

Thanks Dantheman,

I kick myself in the rear for not taking the opportunity of paying more attention to my Dad and Grampa when they were brewing their own beer. They did it for years, and it was the stuff that really stuck to the ribs. I also kick myself for not taking the opportunity to learn more from a buddy I had years ago - he made the sweetest raisen, cherry, and strawberry wines I ever tasted. Anything you could share would be great.

Dantheman62

10-10-2008, 12:54 AM

In fact my aunt was just telling me yesterday about something they make in Iceland very similar to everclear or pure grain alcohol which could be used probably for an antiseptic also. I'll check into it tomorrow, she's in bed already.(she's 83 and always has a few drinks before dinner)

Peer

10-10-2008, 04:41 PM

Hai HC,
I am not trying to advertise alcoholic drinks for fun but our ancestors the Germans brewed beer because you cannot always trust the water, espescially in summer and beer contains alcohol and hops, a natural antiseptic so you can drink it without too much danger.
So you should only drink beer if there is no good drinkingwater around and out in the open there isn't unless you find a well.
So no party party for you. You only drink beer because you have to.!!:mfr_lol:

historycircus

10-10-2008, 05:23 PM

Howdy Peer,

I know that Europeans drank beer because of bad water. When they arrived in the so-called "New World," some historical authors have found there was something else at work - water was for poor people and savages, beer and wine for gentlemen and the nobility. Believe it or not, John Smith, John Rolfe, and others snubbed their noses at some of the clearest waters in the Chesapeake at times to drink bad beer.

I gotta' disagree with you about drinking for fun. I'm not saying that one has to drink for fun, but it is fun to get together with friends, drink a few hearty beers that are just a few degrees above freezing, and tend a bonfire. I grew up in house where alcoholism ruled the day, and spent my later teenage years essentially drunk. At 21, ironically, I recognized it was a problem for me, and had been my entire life. I went for years without touching the stuff, thinking that a couple beers would lead me to the gutter. Eventually I realized that all the stuff that had made it terrible for me as a kid - the violence, blackouts, and porcelain prayer - was due to a rotten mindset. I always drank to get messed up - the wrong goal when approaching any substance that alters our perceptions. I believe that a couple of beers every now and again with a few friends is good for the soul. I think some sort of brewing and winemaking has its place in future safe/radiant zones.

With that being said, did you know that there is one brand name mentioned in the Bible. When Jesus turned the water into wine at the wedding, he didn't turn it into any old **** - he turned it into Falernum, the best wine in the empire. It can still be purchased today.

historycircus

10-11-2008, 05:58 AM

My last post just had the word "c""r""a""p" edited out of it. Is it just me, or are the PA censors a wee bit too vigilant?

Swanny

10-11-2008, 06:40 AM

My last post just had the word "c""r""a""p" edited out of it. Is it just me, or are the PA censors a wee bit too vigilant?

That's carp :adminpower:

Dantheman62

10-11-2008, 07:36 AM

My last post just had the word "c""r""a""p" edited out of it. Is it just me, or are the PA censors a wee bit too vigilant?
Unreal!!!!!!, there they go treating us like kids again, you would think that all of us being adults here can say what we want as far as swearing goes. To the mods. GROW UP! No wonder you're so busy because you're nitpicking everything. P.S. Did I cross my T's and dot my I's? Did I spell everything correctly? I'm 46 not 3, jesus.

pvt714

10-11-2008, 07:40 AM

Wat tha pho!...lol:naughty

pineal-pilot-in merkabah

10-11-2008, 08:07 AM

also on a side note you can get cetain multi fuel burners that can burn diff alcohols and petrol ect.. i went into a survial store and the assistant said soldiers in iraq(brit) are drinking metholated spirits cos of an alocohol ban and actually pizz into the feul cap on the stove nesxt day and it runs off that lol.. just another thought about alcohol use.. :)

pineal-pilot-in merkabah

10-11-2008, 04:07 PM

http://militarykit.com/products/camping/coleman_dual_fuel_feather_422_stove.htm

not sure about usa stockists butyou get the rough idea with this.. multipurpose fuel burner

Peer

10-11-2008, 05:29 PM

Unreal!!!!!!, there they go treating us like kids again, you would think that all of us being adults here can say what we want as far as swearing goes. To the mods. GROW UP! No wonder you're so busy because you're nitpicking everything. P.S. Did I cross my T's and dot my I's? Did I spell everything correctly? I'm 46 not 3, jesus.

Maybe I'll have to teach you all to swear in Dutch then?
And when they've banned that we can switch to German or French. Merde!

HC, I agree with you that a few good beers are good for understanding and accepting one another.
I remember the archery-compatitions where the blokes were running around with deadly weapons as compound and hunting bows, with big razorsharp bowieknives on their hips and at night we all enjoyed a nice fire having a few (sometimes a lot) of beers and nothing bad ever happened.

historycircus

10-11-2008, 06:16 PM

C'est merde, vraiment!

But, its their forum, they can do as they please.

Dantheman62

10-11-2008, 06:30 PM

C'est merde, vraiment!

But, its their forum, they can do as they please.
You're right I guess, haven't they heard that "sticks and stones will break my bones but words will never hurt me"..... Wow, I haven't said that in about 40 years! LOL

historycircus

10-11-2008, 06:39 PM

Hi all,

I just found the following site - it has some useful information about water procurement in the wild. Granted, the ideal will be locate on a source of freshwater, or have local control of communal water distribution system (as is the case for Peer), but some of this might be useful for folks on the go, or those who can't settle themselves near water.

I apologize in advance - the pop-up ads on this cite are a pisser, but there is some good info on this site. I particularly like the fact that the authors deal with the psychological ramifications of survival - something that should be considered by all.

Here it is: http://www.wilderness-survival.net/

historycircus

10-12-2008, 04:39 AM

Speaking of the psychology of survivalism, here is a sight that offers a succinct analysis of the Buddhist belief about the survivalist perspective.

Whether you agree or disagree with it, it is something to to consider. Perhaps it will bring us humility while we prepare.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/walshe/wheel261.html

historycircus

10-17-2008, 07:00 PM

Some Suggestions for a Mobile Medical Kit

My mobile medical kit goes with me on every camping trip, and may be an invaluable resource while “on the go.”

A simple backpack will work – and the simpler (and cheaper) the better. What you should really care about is the width of the main inner compartment, and the quality of the zipper. You should pick something dark; mine is dark forest green. Once you have it, cram it full of the following:

A big roll of masking tape (commercial medical tape is flimsy and expensive), and a big roll of duct tape.
A big roll of gauze (forget band aids).
Two elastic bandages, and a package of safety pins.
A big tube of antibiotic cream.
A pack of needles, and spool of black medium gauge thread.
One bottle of alcohol, and one bottle of hydrogen peroxide.
One pint of Everclear – doubles as alcohol when you run out, and anesthesia if needed.
One bottle of high dose acetaminophen, and one bottle of high dose aspirin.
One package of water purification tablets, and one big bottle of water (from the store).
One scalpel or exacto knife and one pair of hemostats.
A cigarette lighter.
A set of clean syringes – for fluid and poison extraction, not for injection.
Take a heavy duty bath towel, cut it into two inch wide strips running length ways, put them on top of each other and roll them up into a disk, and cram them into your backpack. They’ll serve as tourniquets and splint ties.
A big bottle of good multi-vitamins.

That will leave a little space for person-specific needs, such as prescription medicines for the body, and other herbal remedies for the soul.

If I have left any of the basics out – please note it.

Dantheman62

10-17-2008, 07:37 PM

Good things to have for sure!, I would also suggest some zip lock baggies for lighters and matches just in case everything gets wet. Question, why does it matter what color the bag is?, you said pick something dark, just wondering.

Marian-Librarian

10-17-2008, 10:31 PM

I've finally found the right thread to post in!

I have no clue about military stuff, so thanks to all of you guys who share your abilities from the military.

I'm the other half-I can build, sew, cook, make soap, etc.

I have been gathering info on how to sustain in one area...water, filtration, etc.

I'm thinking caves-would that stop the heat seeking? Please share more on a Farady Cage.

I've seen some concrete posts going in the threads like this, but they are far and few, and are not practical.....

I'm gonna start gathering info together FOR ALL of us, but I need your help....

Start thinking if you were writing a training book....
Then....Pick a topic

List supplies needed to do/make the topic
List steps 1.2.3 etc
List anything special you might need to do...skills, knowledge etc
Keep it to one page if possilbe.

I will gather and start shooting to whomever hollars for it....

You can email me off list, if you wish via private message, that way we don't clog up the list.....and I will then ask the mods/admins to make a general topic button for this so all can see.

Hope this sounds good.....

Suggestions? Thoughts?

I'm glad to be brainstorming with all of you. Let me know what we need researched....I am at a large university and have access to alot of sources I can pull from to get answers. I feel this is the way I can contribute to all of us best.

Peace,love and JOY.

Marian-Librairan

Marian-Librarian

10-17-2008, 10:40 PM

PS..yes I have info on brewing...wine,mead and stuff from vinegar..

yup....they use it in the desert, and yes, it tastes good...

Will post on the spirits....good thought on trading...

"So,gents what's your pleasure???"

What shall I post first? Beer? Cordials?

Told ya you would find me handy...<wink> <LOL>

Marian

aiwass322

10-17-2008, 10:53 PM

At last a thread of action! I have not been able to read half of all the information here but I just want to thank you historycircus and other constructive people for finally making this effort. I will catch up to your initiative, in a day or so.

My DNA might mutate into whatever, ET´s might come and give me a 6 week vacation in La La land, "prophets" might actually come down to earth and offer a straightforward and down to earth hint of what to expect. Whatever.
But finally an initiative.

I spend my time on a journey to make dues with karma. I am not going to waste this lifetime on being ignorant and passive due to what may be disinformation in the highest degree. I want to know and I want to live. As long as fate lets me. My dharma is this. And finally a thread that actually gets down to the main issue.

Do what thou whilst shall be the whole of the law!
Love is the law, Love under will!

You rule! :trumpet:

Dantheman62

10-17-2008, 11:53 PM

historycircus

10-18-2008, 12:32 AM

Dantheman62

10-18-2008, 06:00 AM

I know, I know, but I did find a recipe for chokecherry wine, but I think chokecherries are native to Minnesota, I don't know, but I haven't forgot! I've been busy posting jokes in camelot off-topic., Dan

Humble Janitor

10-18-2008, 06:26 AM

Mobile groups won't need to worry, for whatever reason, about brewing beer. But stationary folks might want to brush up on beer and winemaking - if anything, it could become an incredible exchange commodity. Does anyone here want to give this thread some advice on brewing wine and spirits?

I'm a homebrewer and basically, you need to either have access to liquid/dry malt extract or access to grains in order to brew. You also need access to yeast (dry is best) and hops. It could be difficult to brew if supplies are cut off but if you can find a farmer that grows malt and you can find a yeast source (possibly brettanomyces or other wild yeasts?), you could make a basic hop-less beer with spices and herbs or try growing hop rhizomes.

Dantheman62

10-18-2008, 03:54 PM

Hi aiwass,

Thanks for the kind words, and if you have anything to contribute, please do so.

Dantheman,

Weren't you supposed to ask your aunt about the home-brew recipies? Did you find out anything you could share? Where are the Icelandic secrets?

Peace, love, and funny colors,

Historycircus
[edit] Iceland
Icelandic moonshine (landi) is distilled gambri or landabrugg [12]. It is largely made by hobbyists due to high liquor taxes [13], but used to be a prolific business during the prohibition [14]. Due to the lack of natural cover and harsh weather conditions, most "moonshining" activity occurs indoors in a controlled environment. Although potatoes are the most common constituent of Icelandic moonshine, any carbohydrate can be used, including stale bread. Landi is often consumed by people who cant buy alcohol, either due to their young age or distance from the nearest alcohol store
This is all I could find on it! I talked to my aunt and she said the people she knew that made it have moved, so I guess it's still a mystery.

historycircus

10-18-2008, 06:24 PM

Here is website on making several different types of stills. I think End-times is right - if the SHTF, we may, sadly, be looking at a potentially beer-less future. My German blood recoils in horror at that potentiality, but it may be a reality at least for a while.

Fortunately, if our federal prison inmates can make Sangria in their toilets, surely we can figure something out. Here is the site - there is a lot of info here.

http://www.moonshine-still.com/

If you can find something better - please post.

Marian-Librarian

10-19-2008, 11:10 AM

Wearing material like a survival blanket is better than going underground unless it is just really convenient. Remember that there is available material that is like a faraday cage it stops frequencies. It is about $35 per yard and for about $1000 you can canopy your bed and then add a space/survival blanket and you are pretty much gone![/QUOTE]

This faraday cage-what does it block frequencies of? Heat seeking tech? Other things? Please tell more. I am thinking about constructing a shelter(large) that would use concrete and wire meshing to support it-I think it would function as the farady cage part, and want to know what technology it might block. Just musing for the future. Thanks for your wisdom.

Dantheman62

10-19-2008, 07:30 PM

The faraday cage blocks all kinds of radio freguencies, when I worked at Motorola we all sat in our little cages to block each others transmissions, I worked on pagers and cell phones, the guy in front of me worked on cell phones, the guy behind me worked on mobile radios(police,fire,rescue,and such). There were 8 of us in all and we each had our booths with heavy metal doors too. The cages were to block each others transmissions from our frequency generators that we used for repairs and testing. I don't know if they block heat seeking stuff or not.

astropsyche

10-19-2008, 08:48 PM

I would just like to add something to the list of survival supplies. If you are taking strong medications try to build up a store of these - this is so that usage can steadily be reduced and not lead to crippling withdrawal symptoms which would be very undesirable in a survival situation. You healthy folk may not get this but those of you who do use such medications certainly will. I am not sure how diabetics will fare in maintaining sugar levels?

Swanny

10-19-2008, 09:21 PM

historycircus

10-19-2008, 10:14 PM

Swanny,

Is there a shelf life for insulin? Also, doesn't it need to be kept cool? Does friend have a "mobile" contingency?

Swanny

10-19-2008, 10:28 PM

Swanny,

Is there a shelf life for insulin? Also, doesn't it need to be kept cool? Does friend have a "mobile" contingency?

Sorry I dont know I will ask him next time I see him.
I said to him that it mite be a good idea to get some stock built up and he told me he already had a years worth so I guess it must be ok for that long. He does carry some with him and checks quite regularly.

Cosmic Seer

10-20-2008, 03:27 PM

http://dotconnectoruk.blogspot.com/2008/10/one-hundered-items-to-disappear-off.html

The One Hundred Items To Disappear Off The Shelves First

1. Generators (Good ones cost dearly. Gas storage, risky. Noisy...target of thieves; maintenance etc.)
2. Water Filters/Purifiers
3. Portable Toilets
4. Seasoned Firewood. Wood takes about 6 - 12 months to become dried, for home uses.
5. Lamp Oil, Wicks, Lamps (First Choice: Buy CLEAR oil. If scarce, stockpile ANY!)
6. Coleman Fuel. Impossible to stockpile too much.
7. Guns, Ammunition, Pepper Spray, Knives, Clubs, Bats & Slingshots.
8. Hand-can openers, & hand egg beaters, whisks.
9. Honey/Syrups/white, brown sugar
10. Rice - Beans - Wheat
11. Vegetable Oil (for cooking) Without it food burns/must be boiled etc.,)
12. Charcoal, Lighter Fluid (Will become scarce suddenly)
13. Water Containers (Urgent Item to obtain.) Any size. Small: HARD CLEAR PLASTIC ONLY - note - food grade if for drinking.
14. Mini Heater head (Propane) (Without this item, propane won't heat a room.)
15. Grain Grinder (Non-electric)
16. Propane Cylinders (Urgent: Definite shortages will occur.
17. Survival Guide Book.
18. Mantles: Aladdin, Coleman, etc. (Without this item, longer-term lighting is difficult.)
19. Baby Supplies: Diapers/formula. ointments/aspirin, etc.
20. Washboards, Mop Bucket w/wringer (for Laundry)
21. Cookstoves (Propane, Coleman & Kerosene)
22. Vitamins
23. Propane Cylinder Handle-Holder (Urgent: Small canister use is dangerous without this item)24. Feminine Hygiene/Haircare/Skin products.
25. Thermal underwear (Tops & Bottoms)
26. Bow saws, axes and hatchets, Wedges (also, honing oil)
27. Aluminum Foil Reg. & Heavy Duty (Great Cooking and Barter Item)
28. Gasoline Containers (Plastic & Metal)
29. Garbage Bags (Impossible To Have Too Many).
30. Toilet Paper, Kleenex, Paper Towels
31. Milk - Powdered & Condensed (Shake Liquid every 3 to 4 months)
32. Garden Seeds (Non-Hybrid) (A MUST)
33. Clothes pins/line/hangers (A MUST)
34. Coleman's Pump Repair Kit
35. Tuna Fish (in oil)
36. Fire Extinguishers (or..large box of Baking Soda in every room)
37. First aid kits
38. Batteries (all sizes...buy furthest-out for Expiration Dates)
39. Garlic, spices & vinegar, baking supplies
40. Big Dogs (and plenty of dog food)
41. Flour, yeast & salt
42. Matches. {"Strike Anywhere" preferred.) Boxed, wooden matches will go first
43. Writing paper/pads/pencils, solar calculators
44. Insulated ice chests (good for keeping items from freezing in Wintertime.)
45. Workboots, belts, Levis & durable shirts
46. Flashlights/LIGHTSTICKS & torches, "No. 76 Dietz" Lanterns
47. Journals, Diaries & Scrapbooks (jot down ideas, feelings, experience; Historic Times)
48. Garbage cans Plastic (great for storage, water, transporting - if with wheels)
49. Men's Hygiene: Shampoo, Toothbrush/paste, Mouthwash/floss, nail clippers, etc
50. Cast iron cookware (sturdy, efficient)
51. Fishing supplies/tools
52. Mosquito coils/repellent, sprays/creams
53. Duct Tape
54. Tarps/stakes/twine/nails/rope/spikes
55. Candles
56. Laundry Detergent (liquid)
57. Backpacks, Duffel Bags
58. Garden tools & supplies
59. Scissors, fabrics & sewing supplies
60. Canned Fruits, Veggies, Soups, stews, etc
.61. Bleach (plain, NOT scented: 4 to 6% sodium hypochlorite)
62. Canning supplies, (Jars/lids/wax)
63. Knives & Sharpening tools: files, stones, steel
64. Bicycles...Tires/tubes/pumps/chains, etc
65. Sleeping Bags & blankets/pillows/mats
66. Carbon Monoxide Alarm (battery powered)
67. Board Games, Cards, Dice
68. d-con Rat poison, MOUSE PRUFE II, Roach Killer
69. Mousetraps, Ant traps & cockroach magnets
70. Paper plates/cups/utensils (stock up, folks)
71. Baby wipes, oils, waterless & Antibacterial soap (saves a lot of water)
72. Rain gear, rubberized boots, etc.
73. Shaving supplies (razors & creams, talc, after shave)
74. Hand pumps & siphons (for water and for fuels)
75. Soysauce, vinegar, bullions/gravy/soupbase
76. Reading glasses
77. Chocolate/Cocoa/Tang/Punch (water enhancers)
78. "Survival-in-a-Can"
79. Woolen clothing, scarves/ear-muffs/mittens
80. Boy Scout Handbook, / also Leaders Catalog
81. Roll-on Window Insulation Kit (MANCO)
82. Graham crackers, saltines, pretzels, Trail mix/Jerky
83. Popcorn, Peanut Butter, Nuts
84. Socks, Underwear, T-shirts, etc. (extras)
85. Lumber (all types)
86. Wagons & carts (for transport to and from)
87. Cots & Inflatable mattress's
88. Gloves: Work/warming/gardening, etc.
89. Lantern Hangers
90. Screen Patches, glue, nails, screws,, nuts & bolts
91. Teas
92. Coffee
93. Cigarettes
94. Wine/Liquors (for bribes, medicinal, etc,)
95. Paraffin wax96. Glue, nails, nuts, bolts, screws, etc.
97. Chewing gum/candies
98. Atomizers (for cooling/bathing)
99. Hats & cotton neckerchiefs
100. Goats/chickens

From a Sarajevo War Survivor:
Experiencing horrible things that can happen in a war - death of parents and friends, hunger and malnutrition, endless freezing cold, fear, sniper attacks.
1. Stockpiling helps. but you never no how long trouble will last, so locate near renewable food sources.
2. Living near a well with a manual pump is like being in Eden.
3. After awhile, even gold can lose its luster. But there is no luxury in war quite like toilet paper. Its surplus value is greater than gold's
.4. If you had to go without one utility, lose electricity - it's the easiest to do without (unless you're in a very nice climate with no need for heat.)
5. Canned foods are awesome, especially if their contents are tasty without heating. One of the best things to stockpile is canned gravy - it makes a lot of the dry unappetizing things you find to eat in war somewhat edible. Only needs enough heat to "warm", not to cook. It's cheap too, especially if you buy it in bulk.
6. Bring some books - escapist ones like romance or mysteries become more valuable as the war continues. Sure, it's great to have a lot of survival guides, but you'll figure most of that out on your own anyway - trust me, you'll have a lot of time on your hands.
7. The feeling that you're human can fade pretty fast. I can't tell you how many people I knew who would have traded a much needed meal for just a little bit of toothpaste, rouge, soap or cologne. Not much point in fighting if you have to lose your humanity. These things are morale-builders like nothing else.
8. Slow burning candles and matches, matches, matches

Peer

10-20-2008, 05:10 PM

[quote=
This faraday cage-what does it block frequencies of? Heat seeking tech? Other things? Please tell more. I am thinking about constructing a shelter(large) that would use concrete and wire meshing to support it-I think it would function as the farady cage part, and want to know what technology it might block. Just musing for the future. Thanks for your wisdom.[/quote]

A Faradaycage blocks electronic frequencies but not light frequencies and heat is infra-redlight.
When your environment is well isolated it will also block warmth=infraredlight but so will an earthroof or concrete.

Anchor

10-21-2008, 10:36 AM

Dantheman62

10-21-2008, 05:07 PM

O.K. Historycircus, here's what I call hippie wine,..... Dandelion Wine.....2 quarts of dandelion blossoms(just the tops), 4 pounds of sugar, 3 thinly sliced oranges, 3 thinly sliced lemons, 1 package dry yeast.......Pour one gallon boiling water over dandelion blossoms in a container, let stand 3 days stirring each day, then strain. Disslove yeast in alittle warm water. Add sugar, fruit, and dissolved yeast to strained dandelion water and let stand 3 days, stirring each day. After 3 days strain again and let liquid stand for 4 weeks lightly covered. Then strain through cheesecloth and pour into wine bottles, lightly corked and relieve pressure every so often. Best if aged 6 months and enjoy!..... My hippie sayings for the day,"Make love not war", "Draft beer not students"...PEACE

Swanny

10-21-2008, 07:23 PM

A faraday cage is complete if the sheilding material is solid. If you use a mesh, it will only filter frequencies that are longer than the "holes" in the mesh. That's is why Microwave oven doors all look the same with those little holes, the little holes are just shorter than the wavelength of the RF used to cook your food.

So: the question then becomes, what are the frequencies found in your average EMP etc.

A..

So you could stick all your stuff in the mircowave and it would be safe??
As long as you dont turn it on :naughty:

If your in UK or Oz and you had a old one you could take out the fuse and leave it plugged in then its still earthed and your kit is safe????

Shellie

10-22-2008, 01:36 AM

Cosmic Seer, that was a great list!

historycircus

10-22-2008, 03:32 AM

I second that Cosmic Seer - fantastic list for all of those who can remain where they are in coming times.

For those anticipating leaving their current situations at the onset of whatever - especially urban dwellers - this list will definately need a bit of pruning. Perhaps that is a way we could steer the discussion here - the development of mobility kits - beyond medical care.

Lance

10-22-2008, 08:53 AM

A friend of mine is a diabetic, he has a years supply of insulin and loads of chocolate :naughty:

Get your friend to go on the 'Simpson Oil' diet...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjhT9282-Tw

And they won't NEED insulin, I've freed a few...

Swanny

10-22-2008, 09:18 AM

Thx Lance he is reading this thread :original:

mr.komie

10-22-2008, 02:41 PM

hi guys and gals, just to let u know that i recently saw adverts for a new water filter bottle. portable filtration of up to 4000lt or 6000lt. the LIFESAVER bottle is great and filters everything down to virus size particles. i searched the web for the best price and global gizmos came up with £20+ cheaper than the manufacturers so i thought woohoo ill have 2. that was 2 months ago and they do NOT respond to emails or phone calls.

with everything thats going on, u dont need the grief like i have. be warned....:mad3:

Swanny

10-22-2008, 07:42 PM

I have this water filter
http://www.trailspace.com/news/2006/08/13/katadyn-vario.html

Swanny

10-23-2008, 10:28 AM

Not sure if it's been mentioned in this thread yet.
It's ok having a stock of supplies to see you through IF the **** hits the fan, remember others will want what you have, so it would be a good idea to have materials availiable to be able to block up windows and doors etc.
You only need one working door to enter and leave your property.
Just imgine you were leaving your house for 5 years and wanted to make sure no one got in, you would board up windows and screw doors shut.
Get your self some 18mm ply wood and some 4x2 timber, some 4" screws, a good battery drill/driver.
Your home needs to be your fortress dont make it easy for them to get in :original:

Peer

10-23-2008, 11:55 AM

How about not leaving your house for five years or your survival cellar and when you try to get out discover they build a whole new block upon your ceiling?
Stop blocking in.

Go out and share and be part of a community because you cannot survive alone.
Imagine sitting in your safeplace with just your family day in day out and not being able to avoid meeting eachother.
Go out and share what you have with everybody else and there will be abundance.

Feel how you folks get more and more tight up about things.
Imagine eating canned ravioli for five years.

Forget those Hollywoodhorrorscenarios and befriend your neighbours because those are the ones you're gonna need or get together with the people you meet here that live closest to you.
See what you can do together.

Make an index of what abilities you have.
You cannot do everything alone so you need others with other abilities and share.

Do NOT exchange or think how much you can gather or make profit.
That time is definitly over and if you are still not aware of the results of barring doors and trying to survive on your own go out and look around you and see that this mentality has ruïned the world, relationships, environment, made species go extinct and brothers kill eachother.

Go ahead and bar your doors and your windows from the inside and I will come to help you and bar them from the outside as well.
If you really want to bar something out:
Bar your fears.

Remember the worst thing that ever happened to you.
You survived didn't you?
Then why shouldn't you survive now?
Afraid to loose what you have now?
Is it really yours to begin with?

Go out and spread the news: The word is SHARING and not owning or holding onto what you have now, it wasn't enough anyway was it?

SO SHARE AND LIVE IN ABUNDANCE.

Swanny

10-23-2008, 01:05 PM

Yea good point :)
I wont want to stay here, I'll pack my stuff and hit the road, see who I can find.

Swanny

10-23-2008, 02:14 PM

Peer

10-23-2008, 02:57 PM

Dont forget that there are some bad people out there that wouldn't care whether if live or die as long as they get food. These people will take the easy option everytime.
Some people have children that they want to protect and help survive so self protection is a good thing to have.
Making your house a safe place is better than being thrown out on the streets with nothing.
Then at least you have a base from which you can feed your family and work with others from.

But this isn't going to happen anyway :original:

Those people are there now too. They are the cause of what is happening right now.
Hiding for those couple of robbers is nothing compaired to what is going on now.
Making your house a safeplace will only draw their attention.

Being out in the open and knowing how to survive is always better than being a sitting duck but then again there is a time for evey purpose under heaven:
You may find a group you can join and start an community or become part of one.
Chances to survive by staying alone in your house are zilch because if it happens it won't be for five years but for generations to come.
You will have to deal with it, whether you like it or not.
Hoping it will pass by your door is like trying to arrest Katarina and bring her to justice before she hits New Orleans.

historycircus

10-25-2008, 03:06 AM

Agreed.

If you are going to stay in an urban area, then you must be prepared to help all who seek it. You will not end up an island unto yourself, no matter where you end up in the coming years. Wherever you find yourself in the future, never be afraid to start the kickball game - if you can't get a game going, reevaluate where you are.

Neighbors will have to be neighbors. City, burbs, countryside - we all gotta' start getting along.

Seriously though, those of you reading this, consider getting out of the heart of any urban area. At least for right now. The countryside is good for the health, and the mind.

Wolfladyk

10-25-2008, 07:44 PM

Anyone interested in joining a small (2-3) community in northern Arizona who actually HAS some money to invest, please contact me. I have put together several places that are very doable. You can email me at Helkado@yahoo.com to get more info and talk. PLEASE...only serious people reply. I have been working on a survival scenario for almost a year knowing what is coming.

historycircus

10-26-2008, 04:00 AM

THE IMPORTANCE OF UNDERSTANDING GEOGRAPHY

I have no links to offer, or any books to recommend on this topic, as I am self taught, and most of what I know is specific to me.

Apocalypse or not, it never hurts to know the lay of the land. No matter where you live, having a working, usable knowledge of local, regional, and global topography, civilian road infastructures, and commercial trade routes (plane, train, and boat) is a good idea. Buy a map for the nearest local municipality, or the county in which you reside. Study it and figure out how it works - using your residence or local haunts as points of reference. Then, expand outward. Get a detailed state map, then move up to a national atlas - one that has detailed info on train tracks, airports, and waterways. Just in case a drunk driver takes out the pole at the end of the street at the very exact moment you need to know how to get to where you want to be, and thus you can't MapQuest it, get to know some physical, paper maps. Maps can be difficult, so put the effort into figuring out how to read one now. Build a small map collection - its fun if you travel a lot. Learn how to read them, or the trees sacrificed to our knowledge base will have died for nothing.:rip_1:

Always keep in mind that knowing where not to go can be just as good as getting where you want to go.

historycircus

11-03-2008, 12:45 AM

I just posted this on the "Capitalism" thread:

"I think that we will see an incredible surge in the stock market this week, especially after Obama "wins" the election.

Here is the good news. The stock market, despite what a lot of you folks believe, is still subject to the whims of thousands still willing to make market decisions for their own best interests - not do what they are told to do. Obama's victory, hyped as the presidency of change, will inspire those who can make their own decisions to be calm, keep their money in certain U.S. industries (yes, we still have some), and wait till January to do anything of any significance.

Here is another bit of silver lining to the coming months. If you have the money, buy property. Be smart about it. Don't sign a lease for space at the local failed strip mall. Buy property. No matter how miniscule the gain, it will be a gain nonetheless. Afraid that the bank is going to default on your twenty grand in savings, and that FDIC - although mandated - will fail at the exact moment you need it to work? Got a savings invested in useless 401ks? Buy a hunk of ground - put your money in hard land. Gold mongers will tell you different, and you can bet, they will have all kinds of advice on how to get into the precious metals market. Anywho, if you are looking for something to put your dollars in before dollars become worthless, and will hold its value (or considering the current real estate situation, only increase in value) for years to come, go buy land. You can either A: resell it at a profit in ten years, B: resell it and break even in a few years, C: live off it for now, sell it later for a profit, or D: keep it forever, live off it, and love it - passing it on to the next generation and learning where you come from in the process.

Buy land, not gold.

Just a thought. I'm willing to listen to reasons for why I am wrong, as long as those reasons are researched and knowledgeable.

What do you think?"

Long story short, if you are looking to invest in something now, that will at least retain the bottom end of what it is worth 24 or more months from now, buy land. Find something that is a four or less hour walk to fresh water. It could be refuge in tough times.

Land is better than precious metals. The Earth is always a safe a bet, eh?

Baggywrinkle

11-03-2008, 08:26 PM

Thoughts on Urban Survival

My brother visited Argentina a few weeks ago. He’s been living in Spain for a few years now. Within the first week, he got sick, some kind of strong flu, even though climate isn’t that cold and he took care of himself. Without a doubt he got sick because there are lots of new viruses in my country that can’t be found in 1st world countries. The misery and famine lead us to a situation where, even though you have food, shelter and health care, most of others don’t, and therefore they get sick and spread the diseases all over the region.

What got me started on this post is the fact that I actually saw this coming, and posted on the subject here, months before the new viruses spread over the country and the news started talking about this new, health emergency, which proves that talking, thinking and sharing ideas with like minded people (you guys), does help to see things coming and prepare for them with enough time. So I started thinking about several issues, what I learned (either the hard way or thanks to this forum) after all these years of living in a collapsed country that is trying to get out an economical disaster and everything that comes along with it. Though my English is limited, I hope I’m able to transmit the main ideas and concepts, giving you a better image of what you may have to deal with some day, if the economy collapses in your country. Here is what I have so far:

URBAN OR COUNTRY?

Someone once asked me how did those that live in the country fare. If they were better off than city dwellers. As always there are no simple answers. Wish I could say country good, city bad, but I can’t, because if I have to be completely honest, and I intend to be so, there are some issues that have to be analyzed, especially security. Of course that those that live in the country and have some land and animals were better prepared food-wise. No need to have several acres full of crops. A few fruit trees, some animals, such as chickens, cows and rabbits, and a small orchard was enough to be light years ahead of those in the cities. Chickens, eggs and rabbits would provide the proteins, a cow or two for milk and cheese, some vegetables and fruit plants covered the vegetable diet, and some eggs or a rabbit could be traded for flower to make bread and pasta or sugar and salt.

Of course that there are exceptions, for example, some provinces up north have desert climate and it almost never rains. It is almost impossible to live of the land, and animals require food and water you have to buy. Those guys had it bad; no wonder the Northern provinces suffer the most in my country. Those that live in cities, well they have to manage as they can. Since food prices went up about 200%-300%. People would cut expenses wherever they could so they could buy food. Some ate whatever they could; they hunted birds or ate street dogs and cats, others starved. When it comes to food, cities suck in a crisis. It is usually the lack of food or the impossibility to acquire it that starts the rioting and looting when TSHTF.

When it comes to security things get even more complicated. Forget about shooting those that mean you harm from 300 yards away with your MBR. Leave that notion to armchair commandos and 12 year old kids that pretend to be grown ups on the internet.

Some facts:

1) Those that want to harm you/steal from you don’t come with a pirate flag waving over their heads.

2) Neither do they start shooting at you 200 yards away.

3) They won’t come riding loud bikes or dressed with their orange, convict just escaped from prison jump suits, so that you can identify them the better. Nor do they all wear chains around their necks and leather jackets. If I had a dollar for each time a person that got robbed told me “They looked like NORMAL people, dressed better than we are”, honestly, I would have enough money for a nice gun. There are exceptions, but don’t expect them to dress like in the movies.

4) A man with a wife and two or three kids can’t set up a watch. I don’t care if you are SEAL, SWAT or John Freaking Rambo, no 6th sense is going to tell you that there is a guy pointing a gun at your back when you are trying to fix the water pump that just broke, or carrying a big heavy bag of dried beans you bought that morning.

The best alarm system anyone can have in a farm are dogs. But dogs can get killed and poisoned. A friend of mine had all four dogs poisoned on his farm one night, they all died. After all these years I learned that even though the person that lives out in the country is safer when it comes to small time robberies, that same person is more exposed to extremely violent home robberies. Criminals know that they are isolated and their feeling of invulnerability is boosted. When they assault a country home or farm, they will usually stay there for hours or days torturing the owners. I heard it all: women and children getting raped, people tied to the beds and tortured with electricity, beatings, burned with acetylene torches. Big cities aren’t much safer for the survivalist that decides to stay in the city. He will have to face express kidnappings, robberies, and pretty much risking getting shot for what’s in his pockets or even his clothes.

So, where to go? The concrete jungle is dangerous and so is living away from it all, on your own. The solution is to stay away from the cities but in groups, either by living in a small town-community or sub division, or if you have friends or family that think as you do, form your own small community. Some may think that having neighbors within “shouting” distance means loosing your privacy and freedom, but it’s a price that you have to pay if you want to have someone to help you if you ever need it. To those that believe that they will never need help from anyone because they will always have their rifle at hand, checking the horizon with their scope every five minutes and a first aid kit on their back packs at all times…. Grow up.

SERVICES

What ever sort of scenario you are dealing with, services are more than likely to either suffer in quality or disappear all together. Think ahead of time; analyze possible SHTF scenarios and which service should be affected by it in your area. Think about the most likely scenario but also think outside the box. What’s more likely? A tornado? But a terrorist attack isn’t as crazy as you though it would be a few years ago, isn’t it?
Also analyze the consequences of those services going down. If there is no power then you need to do something about all that meat you have in the fridge, you can dry it or can it. Think about the supplies you would need for these tasks before you actually need them. You have a complete guide on how to prepare the meat on you computer… how will you get it out of there if there is no power? Print everything that you consider important.

WATER

No one can last too long without water. The urban survivalist may find that the water is of poor quality, in which case he can make good use of a water filter, or that there is no water available at all. When this happens, a large city were millions live will run out of bottled water within minutes. In my case, tap water isn’t very good. I can see black little particles and some other stuff that looks like dead algae. Taste isn’t that bad. Not good but I know that there are parts of the country where it is much worse. To be honest, a high percentage of the country has no potable water at all.

If you can build a well, do so, set it as your top of the list priority as a survivalist.
Water comes before firearms, medicines and even food. Save as much water as you can. Use plastic bottles, refill soda bottles and place them in a cool place, preferably inside a black garbage bag to protect it from sun light. The water will pick some plastic taste after a few months, but water that tastes a little like plastic is far way better than no water at all. What ever the kind of SHTF scenario you are dealing with, water will suffer. In my case the economical crash created problems with the water company, that reduces the maintenance and quality in order to reduce costs and keep their income in spite of the high prices they have to pay for supplies and equipment, most of which comes from abroad, and after the 2001 crash, costs 3 times more. As always, the little guy gets to pay for it. Same would go for floods or chemical or biological attacks. Water requires delicate care and it will suffer when TSHTF in one way or another. In this case, when you still have tap water, a quality filter is in order, as well as a pump if you can have one. A manual pump would be ideal as well if possible. Estimate that you need approximately a gallon per person per day. Try to have at least two-four weeks worth of water. More would be preferable.

POWER

I spent WAY to much time without power for my own taste. Power has always been a problem in my country, even before the 2001 crisis. The real problem starts when you spend more than just a few hours without light. Just after the SHTF in 2001 half the country went without power for 3 days. Buenos Aires was one big dark grave. People got caught on elevators, food rots; hospitals that only had a few hours worth of fuel for their generators ran out of power. Without power, days get to be a lot shorter. Once the sun sets there is not much you can do. I read under candle light and flashlight light and your head starts to hurt after a while. You can work around the house a little bit but only as long as you don’t need power tools. Crime also increases once the lights go out, so whenever you have to go somewhere in a black out, carry the flashlight on one hand and a handgun on the other.

Summarizing, being in a city without light turn to be depressing after a while. I spent my share of nights, alone, listening to the radio, eating canned food and cleaning my guns under the light of my LED head lamp. Then I got married, had a son, and found out that when you have loved ones around you black outs are not as bad. The point is that family helps morale on these situations.

A note on flashlights. Have two or three head LED lights. They are not expensive and are worth their weight in gold. A powerful flashlight is necessary, something like a big Maglite or better yet a SureFire, especially when you have to check your property for intruders. But for more mundane stuff like preparing food, going to the toilet or doing stuff around the house, the LED headlamp is priceless. Try washing the dishes on the dark while holding a 60 lumen flashlight on one hand and you’ll know what I mean. LEDs also have the advantage of lasting for almost an entire week of continuous use and the light bulb lasts forever. Rechargeable batteries are a must or else you’ll end up broke if lights go out often. Have a healthy amount of spare quality batteries and try to standardize as much as you can. I have 12 Samsung NM 2500Mh AA and 8 AAA 800mh for the headlamps. I use D cell plastic adaptors in order to use AA batteries on my 3 D cell Maglite. This turned out to work quite well, better than I expected.
I also keep about 2 or 3 packs of regular, Duracell batteries just in case. These are supposed to expire around 2012, so I can forget about them until I need them.
Rechargeable NM batteries have the disadvantage of loosing power after a period of time, so keep regular batteries as well and check the rechargeable ones every once in a while.

After all these years of problems with power, what two items I would love to have?

1) The obvious. A generator. I carried my fridge food to my parent’s house way to many times on the past. Too bad I can’t afford one right now.

2) A battery charger that has both solar panel and a small crank. They are not available here. I saw that they are relatively inexpensive in USA. Do yourself a favor and get one or two of these. Even if they don’t charge as well as regular ones, I’m sure it will put out enough power to charge batteries for LED lamps at least.

GAS

Gas has decreased in quality as well, there is little gas. Try to have an electric oven in case you have to do without it. If both electricity and gas go down, one of those camping stoves can work as well, if you keep a good supply of gas cans. The ones that work with liquid fuel seem to be better on the long run, since they can use different types of fuel.
You can only store a limited amount of compressed gas and once you ran out of it, you are on your own if stores are closed of they sold them out. Anyway, a city that goes without gas and light for more than two weeks is a death trap, get out of there before it’s too late.

A DIFFERENT MENTALITY.

I was watching the People & Art channel with my wife the other night. It was a show where they film a couple for a given period of time and some people vote on who is the one with the worst habits, the one they find more annoying. We were in our bed, and this is when I usually fall asleep but since the guy was a firearms police instructor I was interested and managed to stay awake. At one point the guy’s wife said that she found annoying that her husband spent 500 dollars a month on beauty products for himself. 500 USD on facial cream, special shampoo and conditioner, as well as having his nails polished! If you are that guy and happen to be reading this, or if you know him, I’m sorry, but what an idiot!! “500 USD, that’s a small generator or a gun and a few boxes of ammo” I told my wife. “That’s two months worth of food” she said. We were each thinking of a practical use for that money, the money this guy was practically throwing away. Once the SHTF, money is no longer measured in money, but you start seeing it as the necessary goods it can buy. Stuff like food, medicine, gas, or the private medical service bill. To me, spending 500 dollars on beauty products, and to make it worse, on a guy? That’s simply not acceptable. The way I see it, someone with that mentality can’t survive a week without a credit card, no use in even considering a SHTF scenario.
And this guy is a firearms instructor?… probably the kind of guy that will say that a handgun is only used to fight his way to his rifle… and his facial night cream…

Once you experience the lack of stuff you took for granted, like food, medicines, your set of priorities change all of a sudden. For example, I had two wisdom tooth removed last year. On both occasions I was prescribed with antibiotics and strong Ibuprofen for the pain. I took the antibiotics (though I did buy two boxes with the same recipe just to keep one box just in case) but I didn’t use the Ibuprofen, I added it to my pile of medicines. Why? Because medicines are not always available and I’m not sure if they will be available in the future. Sure, it hurt like hell, but pain alone isn’t going to kill you, so I sucked it up. Good for building up character if you ask me.

Make sacrifices so as to ensure a better future, that’s the mentality you should have if you want to be prepared. There’s stuff that is “nice to have” that has to be sacrificed to get the indispensable stuff. There’s stuff that is not “basic need stuff” but it’s also important in one way or another. My wife goes to the hairdresser once every month or two. It’s not life or death, but it does make her feel better and it boosts her morale.
I buy a game for the Xbox or a movie to watch with my wife every once in awhile, just to relax. 7 or 10 dollars a month are not going to burn a hole in my pocket. Addictions such as alcohol, drugs or even cigarettes should be avoided by the survivalist. They are bad for your health; cost a lot of money that could be much better spent, and create an addiction to something that may not be available in the future. Who will have to tolerate your grouchy mood when your brand of smokes is no longer imported after TSHTF?

FerFAL

PART II

GRAY/BLACK MARKET

Once the SHTF the black/gray market will take no time to appear all around you.
In my country, gray markets were even accepted in the end. At first it was all about trading skills or craft products for food. Districts and towns would form their own barter markets, and created their own tickets, similar to money, that was used to trade.
This didn’t last long. Those tickets were easy to make on your home computer, there was no control and eventually people went back to paper money.

These markets were usually placed on warehouses or empty land, and were managed by some wise guy and a few thugs or hired security. Anyone can go rent a kiosk inside these markets for about 50-100 pesos (about 20-30 dollars) a day and sell his goods and services. Peace within these markets is usually respected… lets just say that these managers don’t call the police if someone tries anything funny, like stealing, fighting or taking advantage of women. That’s not good for their business and anyone that tries to mess with their business finds out how much pain the human body can actually experiment or gets a free ticket to meet the Lord. Sometimes even uniformed cops manage security on these markets, for a small fee of course. As always, you still have to be careful. They may still try to pick your pockets or even attack you once you leave the market. Once you leave the market, you are on your own, as always.

These markets evolved and now a lot of different products are available. Today I visited my local market, a warehouse that is fairly well set up and cleanly managed. They had problems for selling stolen merchandise and fake Brand name clothes a few days ago.
What can be found at a local markets? Mostly food and clothing. Some have more variety than others but cheese, canned food, spices, honey, eggs, fruits, vegetables, beer, wine and cured meat are generally available, same as bakery products and pasta. These are less expensive than those found at supermarkets. Fresh fish is sometimes available but not always, people don’t trust much products that need refrigeration, and they get those at supermarkets instead.

Clothes are also popular and you can find copies of brand name clothes, imitations, or even original stolen new clothes, the same goes for shoes and snickers. Children clothes, underwear, socks, sheets and towels are all very popular. Some sell toys, but they are always China made, mostly poor quality though there are some few exceptions. Others sell tools, also made in China can be found as well, but they are of poor quality. Some offer their services and repair stuff or offer work as handyman.
You would be amazed of the junk that these guys manage to fix: TVs, CD players, Power tools, etc. They even manage to solder the small integrated circuits boards sometimes. Give one of these guys a screw driver and a bar of chocolate and he will fix a nuclear submarine.

After food and clothes, the 3rd most popular item has to be CDs and DVDs, movies, music, play station 2 and Xbox games, programs, it all ends up there just one or two days after the official release in USA. Seems that they have a guy hidden under Bill Gate’s desk or something. Anyway, almost everything can be found there, and if you want, you can ask around, talk to the right guy and buy illegal stuff like drugs or black market guns and ammo. The quality of the drugs is questionable, of course, and a lot of addicts die from the mixtures these guys sell. Guns are mostly FM High Powers, Surplus 1911s and Colt .45s, Sistemas, and old Colt Detective revolvers in 38 special that found their way from police and military armories into the black market. Condition isn’t very good but if you have money you’ll be amazed of what you can end up with. Everything that is used by the military and police, including SMGs a, Browning 50 BMG Machine guns, and even frag grenades, is available in the black market, if the customer has the amount of money and a little patience, of course. The big guns may take a while, but the handguns and grenades are readily available.

GOLD!!

Someone hit me in the head please because I messed up about the gold issue.
Everyone wants to buy gold! “I buy gold. Pay cash” signs are everywhere, even on TV! I can’t believe I’m that silly! I just didn’t relate it to what I read here because they deal with junk gold, like jewelry, either stolen or sold because they needed the money, not the gold coins that you guys talk about. No one pays for the true value of the stuff, so big WARNING! Sign on people that are buying gold coins. Since it is impossible to determine the true mineral percentage of gold, small shops and dealers will pay for it as regular jewelry gold. What I would do if I were you: Besides gold coins, buy a lot of small gold rings and other jewelry. They should be less expensive than gold coins, and if the SHTF bad, you’ll not be loosing money, selling premium quality gold coins for the price of junk gold. If I could travel back in time, I’d buy a small bag worth of gold rings.
Small time thieves will snatch gold chains right out of your neck and sell them at these small dealers found everywhere. This is VERY common at train stations, subways and other crowded areas.

So, my advice, if you are preparing for a small economical crisis, gold coins make sense. You will keep the value of the stuff and be able to sell it for its actual cost to gold dealers or maybe other survivalists that know the true value of the item. In my case, gold coins would have been an excellent investment, saving me from loosing money when the local economy crashed. Even though things are bad, I can go to a bank down town and get paid for what a gold coin is truly worth, same goes for pure silver. But where I live, in my local are small time dealers will only pay you the value of junk gold, no matter what kind of gold you have. So, I’d have to say that if TSHTF bad, gold jewelry is a better trade item than gold coins. Forgive me for not talking about this before, but I didn’t realize this until today, when I visited my local market warehouse and saw a “Buy Gold” sign.

PART III: GUNS, AMMO AND OTHER GEAR

After TSHTF in 2001, only the most narrow minded, brain washed, butterfly IQ level idiots believed that the police would protect them from the crime wave that followed the collapse of our economy. A lot of people that could have been considered antigun before, ran to the gun shops, seeking advice on how to defend themselves and their families. They would buy a 38 revolver, a box of ammo, and leave it in the closet, probably believing that it would magically protect them from intruders.

Oh, maybe you don’t think that firearms are really necessary or your beliefs do not allow you to buy a tool designed to kill people. So you probably ask yourself, is a gun really necessary when TSHTF? Will it truly make a difference? Having gone through a shtf scenario myself, total economical collapse in the year 2001, and still dealing with the consequences, 5 years later, I feel I can answer that question. YES, you need a gun, pepper spray, a machete, a battle axe, club with a rusty nail sticking out of it, or whatever weapon you can get hold of.

A LOT has been written on survival weapons. Everyone that is into armed survival has his or her own idea of the ideal gun battery. Some more oriented to a hunting point of view, others only as self defense means and others consider a little of both, and look for general purpose weapons. Talking about guns, there is one special subject I want to rectify, and it’s the point on what’s the primary weapon for the survivalist, specially an urban survivalist that has to function in a society, yes, even after the SHTF. The primary defensive weapon for the survivalist is his HANDGUN. It’s the weapon that stays with him when he is doing his business around town of working on the field. The survivalist IS NOT a soldier, even though you are a soldier or you once were the meanest mother on the battle filed, your home town is not a battlefield and it wont be, even if the SHTF. A LOT of water has to go under the bridge until the situation gets to a point where you can calmly walk down the street with a rifle on your shoulder. People, if you are interested in real world SHTF situation and you want to prepare for the real deal, then understand that this isn’t black or white. You wake up one day and listen on the radio that the economy collapsed and that the stock market closed indefinitely. What do you do? You still have to go to the office/work/whatever .Kiss the wife good bye and walk to the office with your AR across your back, or across your chest, Israeli style, and ready to shoot? You won’t get far. Someone will shoot you or throw you in jail, or in a mental institution.

What I’m trying to explain, is that it’s ok to prepare for China invading you country, Germans and UN or Martians. That is the extreme, less likely worst case scenario.
There is an infinity spectrum of gray between the black and white. White being your average normal day and black being total TEOTWAWKI, lizard men invading the planet.
Rifles do have a place in the survivalist’s arsenal, and a very important one. But you have to understand that 90% of the time, the handgun will be the weapon you have available when you need one. You can’t compare to a trooper in Iraq that has his weapon with him at all times. I ask you how many soldiers do you know that keep wearing cammo and totting their M4s around town when they return home?

What works for war does not work for the survivalist, especially the urban survivalist.
Even if you live in a retreat far from town, you have to work, don’t you? Or do you have employees that take care of all your mundane tasks, leaving you all day to keep watch with your rifle ready? A soldier is part of a huge machine; HIS job is to carry that rifle, while others take care of other needs. A survivalist, one that is not part of a large survivalist group, has no one to cover for him. When a new guy looks for advice on what to get for defense, some will recommend a rifle or shotgun as a first defensive weapon.
Let’s say race riots start in this guy’s city. He still has to go to work every day. What is he supposed to do? Shove his pump shotgun in his pocket? A handgun, even though less powerful, can be used for home defense AND go with you wherever you need to go. If the place floods, he can still hop into an evacuation boat without leaving his weapon behind. I’m sure no rescue team will pick you if you are carrying a long arm. They’ll ask you to leave it behind for sure. What if your government, realizing that TSHTF and that they lost control of the events, bans all firearms indefinitely? Don’t know about you, but if things are that bad, I’d like to be armed. You can hide a handgun under a jacket. You can’t hide a long arm under your clothes.

I think it was Clint Smith who said that the handgun is only used to fight his way to his rifle. Man! That sounds “macho”. I’d love to see him walking into Wal-Mart with his tactical M4, taking the subway, visiting the doctor or going to the bank. “Over here Mr. Smith, you can hang you M4 right next to my coat” I don’t think so. Guys, unless you have your own shooting school, you do not get to carry your rifle to work.

OK, now that I got that out of my chest lets look at some options.

Handguns: Revolver or Pistol? Pistol ALL THE WAY! Yes, I saw the video of the guy that accurately emptied his S&W in ½ a second. I also saw the shooting range and the crowd behind him, watching the event. Can he shoot and reload that way if he is in his car, driving with one hand and shooting with the other, while a bunch of scum bags in another car are shooting at him? Hey, maybe he can. I know I can’t. Can you?
Generally speaking, the revolver is more difficult to master than the pistol. The double action is hard and it affects speed and accuracy. It can be done, but I found that pistols are easier, as did many shooters. Also, even though they seem to be more simple, revolvers are not as rugged as service pistols, the mechanisms that cycles the cylinder and cocks the hammer is both complicated and fragile compared to auto pistols.
Before anyone starts casting evil voodoo spells at me for insulting their prized S&W or Ruger: I own revolvers and like shooting them, I just don’t think they are the best option for self defense, and I see that everyone I talk to in my country who is worried about security as I am also chooses pistols. Quality pistols resist sand, mud and dirt in general better than revolvers, where a small pebble locked in the mechanism may render the revolver inoperable.

I personally had a problem with a new stainless steel Taurus Tracker .357 magnum. After shooting it a couple of times I reloaded it and shot all 7 rounds as fast as I could and when I tried to empty it, I found that the empties were stuck because they expanded because of the heat. I had to wait until the gun cooled a little so I could empty the gun. Stuff like this can get you killed, even more in a 7 round handgun. I once saw a man walk into a gun store wanting to trade his 357 magnum revolver for a 9mm high capacity pistol. He said he was driving when thugs from another car started shooting at him. He was chased for a few blocks. He said that he pulled his revolver and started shooting at them, and ran out of ammo real fast. He wanted more capacity and fast reloading. I could not agree with him more. Some will consider this “Spray and pray”, thinking that all rounds should hit the target and if some don’t then it means that you need more time at the range. Those same people will tell you that they intend to use bolt action rifles as defensive rifles, making each shot count, without ever missing their target, one shot one kill. I don’t agree with this. One shot one kill is ok for snipers, but the survivalist should have other alternatives.

I don’t see anything wrong with shooting four or five rounds at a chasing car. If those rounds make them think twice about their intentions, they are rounds well spent in my book, even if they don’t kill the attacker. Suppressive fire is possible if you have a high capacity pistol. I wouldn’t doubt on using such a tactic if it serves my purposes, or if it buys me time to get out of there. Also keep in mind that criminals are cowards and therefore attack in groups. The survivalist should be able to face more than just one attacker. Getting into a gunfight with two or three armed men while packing a 6 round revolver is rather hard to deal with. A high capacity pistol can load about 15 or 19 rounds, and that can certainly make a difference in a gunfight where you are outnumbered.

A forensic doctor that used to live in my neighborhood got killed last year. He was ambushed when he exited a restaurant by 5 or 6 men. Even though they did kill him he managed to kill 4 of them and severely injure another. He shot regularly and carried a Glock .40. I’m sure he was lucky but I also think that his choice of weapon was also important in the outcome. If anyone is wondering, people in my country that are serious about self defense carry Glocks. Those that don’t have the money for a Glock carry Bersas, FM High Powers or 1911 surplus .45s. At first I wasn’t sure about the Bersa, but once I tried them I saw that they are very descent guns. I now own two Bersas and am pleased with they performance.

The caliber choice calls for endless debate and it is not my intention here. Let’s just say that 9mm, 40S&W and 45ACP are the obvious choices. 40S&W seem to be the most adequate, both in FMJ and HP, while 9mm lacks some stopping power and hollow points should be used if possible. Though the 9mm lacks power compared to the 40S&W, it is more popular world wide, a factor to consider seriously when choosing a handgun for SHTF. Besides, 9mm can also be used in a number of carbines and SMG, another important fact to be considered.

SMGs and carbines chambered for 40S&W and .45 ACP are also available, but they at not nearly as popular as those chambered for 9mm. Whatever you choose keep 500 or better yet 1000 rounds of quality ammo for your handgun at all times. 100 rounds won’t last much if the crisis lasts long. Also consider that once the balloon goes up, governments tend to restrict guns and ammo.

Rifles
I previously stated that the urban survivalist will be using his handgun 90% of the time he needs to defend himself and family from attackers. I didn’t pull this figure out of thin air; it is quite accurate based on what happens here on daily basis, even a little optimistic. Cold harsh reality has shown us that most attacks occur when entering or exiting your home, when you are more vulnerable. Almost no one is stupid enough to try to enter a barred house with armed occupants. Believe me people; the gene pool will clean itself rather fast once the SHTF. So, is a rifle necessary? Of course it is! There is still that 10%, and that 10% can still ruin your day. And this percentage sky rockets if you intend to use that same rifle for putting meat on the table. If you have to settle with just one rifle, go for a semi auto. Ideally you should have a bolt action one and a semi auto rifle. A bolt action and a semiautomatic 308 would make a nice combination.
Whatever you choose, try to keep it within military calibers and military weapons if possible.

It may seem that I have something against bolt rifles but I don’t. I think they are fantastic weapons, but I think that semi autos are much better fighting weapons. The idea of “picking them out” 300 meters away with your bolt rifle, as they come in a row blowing whistles and firing warning rounds is laughable at best. Bolt rifles do have advantages over semi autos, accuracy not being the most important one. Bolt rifles such as Mausers last forever and are harder than rocks, THAT’S important. They are simple, easy to repair tools that will serve you (within their limitations of course) longer than any other weapon. For example, the coil spring on my Mauser 1891 safety broke into 3 separate parts, after almost 100 years of faithful service. I dug into my tool box and found a spring left over from a kitchen shelve door. I cut it approximately to the length of the previous spring, replaced it and the rifle was fixed. There are not many weapons that allow this. And it is a very valuable attribute once the SHTF and spare parts are no longer available.

Stick to common calibers, 223, 7.62x39mm, or 7,62x51 (308). 223 vs. 308? I’m not going there. If you prefer 223 because it has less recoil, it’s lighter, or you favor the AR rifle go ahead. If you think that 223 is more powerful than 7,62 sign up to Physics I.
Just remember what I said before, a survivalist is not a soldier serving in Iraq, and you don’t have the entire USMF to back you up. You are on your own. You are not going to pin your attackers down with a questionably effective round and wait until someone hits them with artillery.

About ARs… I wouldn’t trust my life to a rifle that has more versions than Rocky sequels… the way I see it, it means that the basic design was the problem and there is no solution. On AK … all has been said. The most popular rifle on the planet, and popular not because of politics, but because it works. It also fires an intermediate power, effective round, available world wide. SKS are also good, but I’d rather have removable magazines. Again, don’t use voodoo on me because I say I wouldn’t trust my life to a AR. If you keep your weapon clean, know its limitations and feel comfortable with it, go for it please. A couple of rounds of 223 will kill anyone just as well.

If you want a rifle that can do a little bit of everything relatively well, do yourself a favor and get either a M1A or a FAL in 7,62 (308) with a carbine length barrel. Preferably with a red dot scope and some kind of light mount. Leave full length barrels to hunters and bench rest shooters. Do your homework on both guns and you’ll see what I mean.
Choose 308 not because of the added range you can get out of it, but because of its power at all ranges, choose it because it turns cover into concealment. Think about all the possible cover material you can find in a city, like cars, trees, low walls and other structures. The 308 will go right through it, or destroy it after a few rounds. It’s a proven cartridge through out the years.

Shotguns.

Shotguns are good general purpose guns. The main advantage I see is the devastating stopping power and the ability to use special ammo, like slugs and less than lethal ammo. I’m not so sure about the role as an “inside house” gun. The muzzle blast is great and quick follow up are not easy, especially when adrenalin is pumping through your system or, even worse, when someone is shooting back at you.

Pistol caliber carbines and SMG.

If possible, I’d choose a SMG reduced to semi auto (only if necessary, of course, full auto selector is better if possible) or other kind of short, small, pistol caliber carbine.
The combination of a 9mm handgun and a 9mm carbine or SMG reduced to semi auto or full auto class III has lots of advantages in my book and is a fine combination.
Some think that full auto is a waste of ammo. I don’t think so, not if you know how to use your head, and use this feature wisely. If you can get a short barrel and collapsible stock, you’ll also have a weapon that can be hidden under a heavy coat. A red dot scope would enhance accuracy a lot. The advantage of having the same ammo for long and small arm is not to be taken lightly. From the logistical, survivalist point of you, this is one big thumbs up! Think about cowboys and Americans that lived in the west, they also knew the value of using the same ammo for rifle and handgun. They had single action handguns and lever action handguns chambered for the same ammo, the modern survivalist can have the same ammo for his auto pistol and his sub-rifle as well.

Some think that a pistol caliber long arm is just one big clumsy pistol or a rifle sized gun that delivers pistol power and accuracy. This is BS. Anyone that ever fired a pistol caliber rifle or SMG knows that they are much more accurate, hitting torso targets at 100 yards is easy, and a little more if you have a red dot scope. Also, SMGs can manage hot ammo specially made for such guns, much more powerful than the one for handguns. Even if you use regular handgun ammo, the added barrel length adds a few extra feet per second making it more powerful. Just check the information on boy armor. Body armor that is rated to stop 9mm, for example, is not rated to stop the same 9mm ammo out of a SMG or carbine, because the added speed will make that same round penetrate the vest. Anyway, +P ammo is more than enough power out of a SMG or carbine; you don’t have to go looking for special SMG ammunition.

If you can get full auto that’s one nice feature to have, not worth it if you are on a tight budget, but if you can get it, it may come in handy someday. Full auto SMG are giving police in my country a lot of headaches. A criminal with little or no training will put 3 or 4 cops armed with pistols and shotguns on their toes, just because of the sheer volume of fire these high capacity 9mm deliver. There was this case of a bad guy standing in front of a patrol car full of cops on a red light stop, pulling a 9mm SMG out of his coat and emptying it on full auto. The cops didn’t have a chance, he killed them all. The car looked like Swiss cheese with 40 9mm holes all over the vehicle.

SOUND SUPPRESSORS

All I’m going to say on this subject is: Have one if you can. That’s it. I’ll leave the rest of it to your imagination, don’t make me say it. Today it may seem like a “nice to have” feature… after the SHTF, it may be an “O God I’ve got to get a suppressor!!” feature.
I’d buy a good suppressor instead of an ultra high dollar scope like the SOG. Buy a good quality scope, but don’t spend a fortune on it, and use the rest of the money on a suppressor. If you are serious about preparing for SHTF, you’ll thank me one day; just trust me on this one. 9mm and 45 suppress quite well. Not as well as .22, but there is much more power on the big bore ammo. Combined with a full auto SMG, the possibilities are much greater. Sometimes it’s just better to go unnoticed, especially in a SHTF crisis.

BODY ARMOR

Dear God! Buy body armor PLEASE!! Its dirt cheep in USA. Preferably, get the police concealable kind (class II) then continue to work on it and get class III A military armor and some rifle plates, just as you do when you start buying guns. You’ll end up with 2 or 3 sets of armor which are great to have for family members and spares. Just so you know, I got so desperate about body armor I ordered it from USA through internet (bulletproofme.com), I ended up paying a total of nearly 600 USD for body armor that costs 200 USD in USA. Buy it while you still can. When the SHTF you’ll end up wearing it, believe me. I don’t wear mine all day long but I do wear it when I have to go some place dangerous, deal with people I don’t trust, or when I have to go teach Architecture Representation late at night, and must travel through a much dangerous road at 12 PM.

Anchor

11-03-2008, 10:02 PM

I moved Baggywrinkles post from PAGD to this thread as it was the best place. I dont have a way to inform him right now as he wont accept PM's

Baggywrinkle

11-03-2008, 10:09 PM

PART IV

-Interlude -Studying the SHTF at the University: Dark omens.

I forgot it! Darn, same as the gold stuff but worse, much worse. I’ve never been good at remembering some things, like numbers and names of people I meet, I forget those (instantly), they just flee my mind, uneventfully, but I do remember some other things that don’t seem to be as important. I do remember living in USA as a kid. I remember my school, Pierce School, Don’t remember exactly were it was, because we lived some in Boston, Massachusetts and some in New Hampshire. I remember my best friend, Freddy, and a girl (why is there always a girl? ) Samantha, Sam. She was red haired and tall, I had a picture of her playing together but I lost it. Some time between the age of 3 and 26 I lost that picture that was so dear to me. I remember the smell of an orange shaped “scratch and smell” sticker my kindergarten teacher stuck in a small book we made once. But I almost forgot this forever. This, this was important, a moment where the life we once knew stopped existing, and a group of students, in a class room that looked like and abandoned building, realized it, all 60 of us at the same time.

It’s 1:06 AM over here. I just finished showering and my wife and son are asleep. I was putting shampoo on my hair, thinking about what I wrote today on this post, and remembered the exact moment when I realized along with several other people, not only that TSHTF (that we all knew) but that the world we once new no longer existed, and that this was not a hurricane, this was an ice age period, it wouldn’t just go away.

We understood it the same way a kid understands photosynthesis: Because a teacher coldly explained it to us, even used graphics. I slept 5 hours yesterday, 2 hours the day before yesterday. Saturday night I didn’t sleep at all. I’m already used to it. Deadlines at the University, staying late at night, drawing in CAD 3D, waiting until Renders are ready. It’s a competitive world out there, and no one sympathizes with what you are going through, they just want you to perform as expected, and the standard is always high. It happened 4 years ago, almost a year after the December 2001 crisis. It was a social studies class and this teacher, don’t remember if it was a he or a she, was explaining the different kinds of social pyramids. God! Now I remember more! We even had a text book with those darn, cruel pyramids! The first pyramid explained the basic society. A pyramid with two horizontal lines, dividing those on top (high social class) those in the middle (middle class) and the bottom of the pyramid (the poor, proletarian). The teacher explained that the middle of the pyramid, the middle class, acted as a cushion between the rich and the poor, taking care of the social stress. The second pyramid had a big middle section, this was the pyramid that represents 1st world countries. I which the bottom is very thin and arrows show that there is a possibility to go from low to middle class, and from middle to the top of the social pyramid. Our teacher explained that this was the classic, democratic capitalist society, and that on countries such as Europeans one, socialists, the pyramid was very similar but a little more flat, meaning that here is a big middle section, middle class, and small high and low class. There is little difference between the three of them.

The third pyramid showed the communist society. Where arrows from the low and middle class tried to reach the top but they bounced off the line. A small high society and one big low society, cushioned by a minimal middle class section of pyramid. Then we turned the page and saw the darned fourth pyramid. This one had arrows from the middle class dropping to the low, poor class.

“What is this?” Some of us asked.

The teacher looked at us. “This is us”

“It’s the collapsed country, a country that turns into 3rd world country like in pyramid five where there is almost no middle class to speak, one huge low, poor class , and a very small, very rich, top class.”

“What are those arrows that go from the middle to the bottom of the pyramid?” Someone asked.

You could hear a pin drop. “That is middle class turning into poor”.

I won’t lie, no one cried, though people rubbed their faces, held their heads and their breath.

No one cried, but we all knew at that very moment that all we thought, all we took for granted, simply was not going to happen.

“You see, the income from the middle class is not enough to function as middle class any more. Some from the top class fall to middle class, but the vast majority of the middle class turns into poor” Said the teacher.

I don’t know how many people in that room suddenly understood that he/she was poor.

The teacher continued “You see, we have a middle class that suddenly turns to poor, creating a society of basically poor people, there is no more middle class to cushion tensions any more. Middle class suddenly discovers that they are overqualified for the jobs they can find and have to settle for anything they can obtain, there for unemployment sky rockets, too much to offer, too little demand. You see they prepare, study for a job they are not going to get. You kids, you are studying Architecture because you simply wish to do so. Only 3 or 4 percent of you will actually find a job related to architecture.”

We all sat there, letting it all sink in. After a few months, it all proved to be true. Even the amount of students that dropped out of college increased to at least 50%. They either so no point in studying something that would not make much of a difference in their future salaries, had no money to keep themselves in college, or simply had to drop college to work and support their families.

Someone once said, in this forum, that if this had happened in USA, the social unrest would have been much worse, because people from S. America are stronger. At first, I told him that I didn’t think so, I said that all humans adapt when they have no other choice. But now that I consider it more, maybe he was right. Not that S. Americans are stronger, but they are more used to adversities. Most of us are children from grandparents that escaped civil war, either in Spain or dictators in Italy, our parents survived the dirty war, even more dictators, and therefore their children are of strong character too. Can USA citizens survive what we survived? Of course they can, though I think that there are too many that are not like you, many that don’t prepare, and take everything for granted. Those are the ones that will be responsible for the increase in the social unrest once the SHTF, those that were too lazy to take care of themselves before the SHTF, or that had gone soft through out the years, believing that the government will “take care of them because they pay their taxes”. But in the end, they will pull through. People will adapt, they always do. You’d be surprised. And those that don’t want to adapt to the new reality they live in, will die young, thus cleaning the gene pool and ensuring the continuity of the specie. It’s been this way for thousands of years.

Note: I’m sorry I took so long to continue this post. I spent the last few days drawing on the computer, I have to present this sort of thesis for the University, a school project, to a board of 4 teachers in 3 weeks.

CRIME AND INSECURITY

Even though crime has always been an issue in South America, my country was quite the exception. It was dangerous, yes but nothing like after the 2001 economical crisis. One used to be able to let kids play on the sidewalk, or walk back home from a party, a few blocks, and be somewhat safe. This all changed now. There are no kids playing on the sidewalks anymore. I should emphasize this a little more. There are absolutely NO kids playing on the sidewalks at all, at any time of the day. Maybe a kid rides his bike a few meters on the sidewalk, but always under the supervision of an adult. A kid riding a bike on his own will get that bike stolen in no time, probably get hurt in the process, therefore no responsible parent leaves a kid alone on the street. Teenagers present a greater problem. You can’t keep a 15 or 16 year old inside a house all day long, and even though they are big enough to go out on their own, when the sun goes down things get much worse.

This is when parents organize themselves; either taking them to someone’s house or to a club and picking them up at a certain time. Taxis and remises are used sometimes , but there have been lots of cases of girls getting raped, so no parent worth a buck leaves his son or daughter in hands of a stranger. After years of living like this, almost everyone learned to be careful; sometimes they had to learn the hard way. Practically no one leaves a door or window opened or unlocked. Nor do they hang out in front of the house talking to friends. A bad guy might just see you there, like a sitting duck, pull a gun on you and take you inside your house.

There are no “bandit’s law” anymore. One used to hear people talk about “You shouldn’t resist a robbery, give them what they want and they’ll go away”. That holds true no more. These guys are under the influence of drugs, epoxy glue, or just hate your guts so much, because you have a better life than they ever dreamed of, because they were abused since the day they were born, that they will hurt and humiliate you as much as they can. Letting a criminal inside you house almost guaranties you that he will rape/beat/ torture and abuse whoever they find inside.
I personally drew a line a few years ago and decided, after one long, serious conversation with my wife; that no one would be allowed inside the house, no matter what. We figured that there are worse things than death. Having decided that, I make sure I always have a weapon on me. They’ll have to pay dearly for my life, plus interests.

By far, the most dangerous moment of the day, is when I (or my wife) leave/enter my house. A solid, secure house cannot be broken in easily, so criminals wait until you are standing on front of the door with the keys on your hand to jump on you. This is why we are extra alert when approaching our house, look all around us and if we see anything strange, keep walking around the block or keep on driving. No door is ever opened when there is a strange person around. Whenever someone knocks on our door (and we don’t know him/her), they are answered from a second story window. Criminals sometimes disguise as electric company guys or something like that, saying that they have to fix something. NO! If there is something to be fixed they can fix it on the sidewalk. Anything inside your house is your responsibility and the company is not going to fix it for you. Either way, it’s always better to play it safe, Better to be rude than dead.

On the car/driving issue, that calls for an entire post dedicated to SHTF driving. For now I’ll just say that windows and doors have to be closed at all times, a weapon must be within arms reach, and that stop signs and traffic lights have a hole new meaning once TSHTF. If your country ever falls as mine did, you’ll remember me whenever you see a traffic light. You never stop at a red lights or stop sign unless there is traffic, especially at night.

At first, police would write you a ticket for not stopping at a red light if they saw you (another way of saying that they will ask for a bribe if they see you pass a red light), but after a few months they realized that nothing could be done, people would rather risk a ticket than risking their lives, so they decided to turn traffic lights to permanent yellow at night, after 8 or 9 PM. This is, of course, very dangerous. Night car accidents are both frequent and brutal since sometimes both cars hit each other at full speed.

MissinLink asked some good questions that might interest others as well, and since we are on the security issue, here they are:

quote:

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“Do the invaders of homes in the country just drive up in cars or trucks? Do they hide and sneak up? How do these home invaders attack a home in the country? A similar question could be asked for homes in the city.”

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Sometimes they just drive up to where you are working, if you are far away from the home, but most of the time they sneak up on you. Criminals are not stupid, and they will spend days checking the place and specially YOUR ROUTINE. For example, if they see that you lock the gate at night, as most do, they will wait for you behind a tree until you are close. This is done a lot. Dogs are the best alarm you can find, and criminals know that. They will poison them with pills when you go to sleep and attack the place in the middle of the night. I know of many that had their dogs killed. If they think that security is tight, they will just hide near the main gate, and wait for you to leave or return. When you stop at the gate and must get out of the truck to open/close the main gate, they attack. I’d say that the most frequent kind of attack is attacking by surprise when you enter/leave your home.

quote:

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“Most common times of attack? Day night evening morning? I understand occur when coming or going from ones home, etc.”

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7 am, 9 am, 1pm 7pm, all are common times for attacks. There is no “safe” hour of the day. Night is particularly dangerous. Maybe attacks during the day are faster, they want to get some money or jewelry and leave fast, while at night they might stay inside more time, maybe till the next day. But there are no fixed patterns. If I could give one advice concerning SHTF security, it would be: Eyes and ears wide open when you enter/leave your home. If possible, keep a gun on your hand when doing either one. If something looks, even “feels strange, then go around the block and check again, carefully. If you see them still there, either call the police (if still available) or get help. If you approach the house with a large number of people they will leave. One time, I saw a couple of strange looking guys at my door. I went round the block and saw them still there. I started flashing the car lights and the horn and they left. I had a gun with me, though, so be careful when trying this. Also, remember that a car is one heavy, powerful piece of machinery. I know a guy that had one of those big chrome–tube bumpers installed on his truck, especially for hitting those that were stupid enough o try to make him stop by standing in front of the car.

If I had a truck, I would do so myself. Though I would keep my mouth shut about it, as always. Just say that you think it looks cool or something. Every now and then someone tries to force me to stop my car by standing in front of it (I suppose there are still fools out there that get robbed this way), in the middle of the street. I just aim at them and accelerate at full speed. They always jump out of the way before I hit them. By the way, at first, doing this made me feel nervous, but can you believe that now it’s just common driving, as normal as changing gears? I guess it’s a little sad.

PART V

Note: Sorry for the delay. This thread started ok and it seems to have a lot of acceptance so I give it serious thought before I post, try not to leave anything out so it can serve the better, as a mini guide of things that may come.

A LIST OF THINGS THAT "If you had it to do over again" YOU WOULD GET.

Nomad came up with this one. It’s a good idea because it may help some of you from making the same mistakes I did. There are things you don’t think about until you need them, and then it’s too late.

OK, if I had to do all this from scratch? Say, for example, if I had a 2 year warning, fairy godmother appears one night, all dressed in blue waving a magic wand, saying
“Your country will go down the sewage in 2 years, consider yourself warned dear”
There are several things I would have done differently, and things I would have bought:
Food: I’ll get to the food issue soon enough, but you can never have too much canned or other long shelf life food. This was probably one of my greatest mistakes, I overlooked the food problem.

I was talking to my wife today while driving, asked her the same question “Nomad asked me ‘what would you do if you could go back in time, before the 2001 crisis’”.

My wife, though smart, isn’t much into preparedness, but she answered “I’d buy food” in a heartbeat. Don’t you remember that you could only buy one small bottle of oil at a time, same with sugar, flour and milk? Don’t you remember all those empty shelves at the supermarket?”

Definitely, more food, especially food that lasts for a few years.

CAR: I would have bought a 4x4, even though I live in the city. A 4x4 allows you to dive over the sidewalk or through wasteland, away from roadblocks or riots. I’ve see those that have 4x4s simply go off road, climb over a boulevard and leave while the rest of us poor car owners have to stay.

A 4x4 truck also has more mass and power in case that someone tries to cut you off or rams you with the car. It’s less likely to stop running if you hit someone or several people (in a riot situation) since it’s prepared for cross country use and the engine is much more protected.

Fuel containers: Not only jerry cans, but those big metal containers, that hook up like small “u-hauls”? I’m not sure about their capacity; maybe they can hold one or two barrels of gas. I saw them at construction sites, and they were not that expensive if bought used, before the 2001 crisis. Now, I don’t know, haven’t seen them for a while.

A generator: These are imported and very expensive for us. I think that they are now making them here, but I’m not sure about the quality.

A nice TV and DVD player: I know what you are thinking “this guy has gone … “nuts” ” Please, let me explain. Going out for dinner or to the movies is not only dangerous but also expensive. You WILL find much better use for that money if SHTF.

There are places in Buenos Aires where you can go out for dinner, movies, or theater shows and have a good time, safely. They either have their own security or arrange with the police for added security. These are the kinds of places you are likely to visit if you ever come to Argentina; places were tourists can move around, relatively safe (there are always exceptions, of course). But these places are either for tourists or for the extremely wealthy. I have a good socio-economical level, better than 96% of the population at least, yet I can’t afford to spend that amount of money every weekend or even two weekends a month. Going out for a walk is a possibility, and we do go out for a walk every now and then, but lets just say that the view isn’t that good, and you can only walk about 6 blocks in the same direction before you get out of the are which is guarded by private security, after that you are on “you are on your own” land. You CAN go for a walk (just like millions that live in Somalia or Afghanistan go for a walk as well) millions of citizens do, but I’d rather not risk it.

Just the day before yesterday, a young woman was waiting at the bus stop in my neighborhood, holding her 6 month old daughter. A cop that was chasing a bad guy opened fire with his High Power, with no regard to bystanders as they always do. The 9mm FMJ (JHP are not allowed for the average police) went right through the baby’s buttocks and through the mother. Miraculously, the bullet didn’t hit any of the baby’s internal organs and the mother also survived after a few days at the hospital. Was that just luck? Maybe, I prefer to think that God does work in mysterious ways. We have a lot of cases like this, were innocent people get shot by the police, and the stupid “no JHP” rule makes it worse, since 124 gr. FMJ 9mm will penetrate walls, windows, even bad guys and end up injuring or killing innocent people.

So, back to the TV, good places are too expensive and just going out for a walk at night with your wife/girlfriend is out of the question. All of a sudden popcorn, pizza and a movie sounds like a good plan. I’m not saying that you should spend all day in front of the screen like a zombie. Reading is nice, I love reading myself, but once the SHTF, going out with a date at night won’t be that easy, nor will it be that cheap. You will end up paying for that added security the shop/bar/theater owner hired, the higher price of gas and food, while a DVD copy can be found everywhere, and costs only a couple of bucks. After the SHTF there will be a lot of “why don’t we watch a movie” nights. Like it or not TV is cheep, safe entertainment. A play station or Xbox is also nice to have. Even if the country collapses, there will always be a guy with a DVD writer making copies. Just something to think about if you like movies.

BOOKS: Oh, almost forgot. If you like reading a lot, buy books now, even if you won’t read them for some time. If your economy crashes, paper will become a source of income for many. We have thousands of scavengers collecting cardboard and paper all day long, specially at night when people take out the trash. As a result, books are not cheap, because they have a value of its own in the form of paper. Also, consider that books are heavy, making transportation expensive and many are printed abroad. Just as an example: I returned from visiting my parents in Spain with three suitcases. ONE suit case was entirely full of books. Books cost about 80%-200% more than what they cost in USA or Spain.

Guns & ammo: I always liked guns, so I always had weapons. But I didn’t have an adequate survival battery. If you don’t have a good survival selection of weapons, buy them now, or as soon as your budget allows. Make it one of your priorities, just after food, water and shelter. There are several posts on the ideal choice of weapons. Get at least a service size pistol and a military semi auto rifle and a 22 handgun/rifle. (Try to get both if you can, they are not that expensive). A bolt rifle (preferably in the same caliber as the semi) a pump 12 ga shotgun and a sub rifle, like a SMG or pistol caliber semi auto carbine (same caliber as pistol) would complete the package. I forgot to buy a 22 pistol until after 2001, and ended up paying for a Norinco 22 pistol the same price I would have paid for a Ruger pistol before the crisis.

Other Stuff: My advice is to see what you use regularly and what you expect to need after TSHTF. Of those goods, see where they are made. If they are made outside your country, they will either increase in price of stop importation entirely after TSHTF. In my case, one good example (of many, many others) is Gillette disposable blades. They are made in USA, and right now they cost a fortune. But as I said before, check what is being imported. No point in buying cases of Cubans for trade after TSHTF if you live in Cuba, right? I wouldn’t think of these items as trade goods, but as “gifts” to buy favors, build up relationships with police, government officials, doctors, people you might need favors from. Stuff, like liquor/wine, a nice pen, perfume, makeup and other “free shop” kind of items can go a long way when you need some strings pulled, or a “friend” within certain circles. And it’s not only the item, sweet talking also must be applied.

For example, you need renew your driver’s license after the XXXX crisis. The problem is that the office is low on personal (they had to let go 25% and 50% are on strike) so you’ll have to wait 4 months until you get an appointment. You approach the information desk were you find Betty. Now, Betty hasn’t had a date since the age of 10, and she weights as much a healthy manatee (though she’s not THAT pretty) you kindly ask her to please help you fill the paperwork, and though she’s as cold as a Popsicle, you keep calling her by her first name and when you leave she smiles and says good bye.

The next day you drop by and give Betty a Revlon lipstick for “helping” you fill the form, which had difficult questions like “name?”” Age?”. It cost you about 4 bucks before the crisis but, since it’s made in France, it went up to 20 dollars and then, 2 months ago, they no longer imported it. Revlon saw that they no longer had a market for their 4 Euro lipstick, which now costs Americans 20 dollars and the segment that used to buy it is spending that money in other items like food, so their marketing experts told them that the 4 Euro lipstick is no longer profitable in USA. Betty used to love that particular lipstick, she though it made her look like Cindy Crawford (poor Betty) but 20 dollars was more than she could spare in her good looks, and when she finally decided to drop the 40 pounds of M&M’s she ate a month in favor for the lipstick, the girl at the drugstore told her that the item is no longer imported into the USA. Her face lights up when she sees your present, and tells you that you shouldn’t have bothered, and she asks “how did it go with your license”. You tell here that you actually have a problem, it seems that it takes 4 months to renew, and you ask her if, well, maybe she can do something about it… you get the picture.

In other occasions people will let you know that they want a plain and simple “bribe”, and there 50 bucks or 100 bucks according to the situation will get the job done. I’ve used “gifts” (a perfume) to get my passport faster, saved a few months, and I’ve used bribes every single time the police stopped me for “inspection”. I know this does not apply to 1st world countries were most officers are honest self sacrificed people, I mean no insult to the law enforcement community on this forum, but please understand that it does apply to 3rd world countries, and I’m not getting shot by an angry cop over 10 or 20 pesos, let them have their bribe. I tried it once and I will never try it again. A cop stopped me and started BS me. I told him “ok officer, guess you’ll have to write me a ticket, I understand”. He didn’t want to write a ticket, he wanted money and things got ugly. I’m never doing anything that stupid again.

FOOD A delicate issue. Even though not in the same way, it does affect us all. Keep in mind that if TSHTF, prepared or not, food will always be in your thoughts. If you don’t have it you’ll do ANYTHING to get it, and if you are prepared you’ll worry about being able to get more for the future. Once you see food prices go up between 200% and 300%, or simply see it missing, you’ll realize what a valuable commodity food really is. To those that think that food will never be a problem in USA: Come visit my country, even though there are desert areas up north, most of the country is fertile “Pampa”.

Just after WWII Argentina practically fed Europe, Argentina was known in Europe as “the world’s granary”. Cattle and wheat was enough to feed our own country and another continent. So, what happened? Why are there so many that have little or no food and end up eating out of dumpsters? I mean, the land is still there, isn’t it? Well, the country is the same country that used to be called the “world’s granary” but some things changed. Several big, multinational corporations, such as Benetton, bought hundreds of thousands of acres of natural resources. I don’t know the exact number, but I do remember that the media started talking about the integrity of the sovereignty of the country being at risk because of these massive purchases of land, so you can imagine how many acres were bought. Mysteriously, the media suddenly dropped the subject.

Another important factor is that now, with our new economy, it’s not good business to sell Argentine food to Argentina. Why sell a kg of meat to the local market for 17 pesos when they can now sell it to Spain for 17 Euros when 1 Euro = 3, 5 pesos? [Editors note: The Irish Potato Famine was not the result of not enough food being in Ireland…but rather the Irish peasants were too poor to purchase anything and English land owners selling their goods to the highest payer] All this combined with high unemployment, salaries that are not enough to buy the minimal amount of calories for a typical family, and the high prices resulted in a country that slowly started to suffer hunger.

Again, I can pin point the exact moment when the entire country realized what was happening. After the 2001 crisis things had been bad, but people in Buenos Aires, the capital city and the richest province, didn’t realize how bad things actually where in the other provinces. This was until teachers noted that kids had problems with education. You see, they noticed that they had problems to concentrate, that they fell asleep, and that they found it difficult to resolve mathematical equations.
They later found out that this was due to malnutrition, kids where not receiving the minimum amount of nutrients for a healthy working body. The braking point was when a reporter interviewed a little girl about 8 or 9 years old. The reporter lady asked her what she wanted to be when she grew up, the usual kiddy questions. The girl, crying, said that she didn’t want to be anything; that she didn’t care. The lady asked her why was she crying. She said that she cried because she was hungry, that she had nothing to eat for days, and it was then that I noticed how skinny the little girl actually was.
Seeing children starve is terrible, I guess we all saw those images of the starving kids in Africa. But when you see them speak your same language, with your same accent, in your own country, it hits a nerve.

People talked about it for weeks, and they interviewed pediatricians that confirmed that the number of children dieing because of hunger had increased drastically in the last few months. So whatever happens, let it be a hurricane, economical collapse, earthquake or meteor hitting earth, food and water always come first.

Ideally you already have a food plan and have a year worth of food in your basement… You don’t? hmm… neither did I when the SHTF and lets just say that I had my manhood up my throat all the time, fearing that supermarkets would definitely close and me and my family would be left without food. If you don’t have your food needs sorted out already, just do what I did; start buying a little extra every time you go to the supermarket. The points you want to look for your storage food are, in order of importance:

1) No need of fridge.

2) High nutritious value/volume

3) Long shelf live, between 1-5 years.

4) That they don’t need water

5) That they don’t need cooking

This will usually take you to canned meats, canned tuna, canned vegetables, dried pasta, dehydrated soups, chocolate, milk powder, marmalades, soups, rice and dried beans. Canned food is excellent when it comes to long shelf life. Most of the time they are already hydrated, so they don’t need water, and you can eat them out of the can. Just watch out not to dent the can, if this happens air may get inside and ruin it. If you have a dent or bump in a can, consume it fast. Also remember that once the can is opened, you have to remove the food from the can. My favorite canned food is tuna. It lasts forever, it’s full of proteins and no matter how often I eat it, it always tastes good. Besides you can combine it with frozen vegetables or rice.

Canned fruits and vegetables are also good, but they have much less vitamins than the fresh ones, and you loose most of it unless you drink the liquid they come in.
Dried pasta may need a lot of water to cook, but its one of the best ways to store carbs in convenient to use form. Flower or wheat can also be stored in large quantities and are nutritious, but they require more preparation to consume.

We’ve become quite independent form the fridge, and only use it to keep frozen our fresh pasta (ñoqui) pizza and frizzed vegetables. We practically freeze everything, because it lasts longer, practically indefinitely, and because if the lights go out a large mass of frozen food will last for hours, even a day or two. The more mass of food you have frozen to longer it will hold. The survivalist, especially the urban one, should try to rely as little as possible on the fridge. That’s why canned food and freeze dried food is your best friend. Yet, anyone who has been for a while with no fresh fruit knows that after some time the skin starts to suffer. Sores will appear after a while, especially on delicate skin like the lips and mouth. [Editor’s Note: This condition is commonly known as Scurvy] Once you start eating fresh fruits and vegetables again they go away.

This happened to me once, spent too much time without fresh vegetables and my mouth was a mess, full of sores. After a week of eating fresh vegetables regularly the symptoms disappeared. That’s why you should try to have some fresh food to supplement you storage food. Not much, just 2 or 3 fruit trees on your garden and a small orchard would be fine. You don’t have to feed out of this, you just need a little fresh veggies or fruit every once in a while.

On the news right now while I write this: We had elections last Sunday, we voted senators. It seems that in one of the north provinces people where surrendering their ID documents for bags of groceries, some for water, or for 10 pesos ( 3 USD) they were later taken to warehouses were they spent the night to ensure that they voted. The next day the candidate’s men took them to vote, hauled inside cattle trucks, like animals. When they arrived they were given their ID documents back with the number of list they had to vote. Thugs guide them and ensure they vote who they want.

HEALTH & FITNESS Visit you doctor NOW. Get yourself fixed. Visit the dentist and make sure your mouth is in perfect conditions. Nothing is worse than having toothache and no one available to take care of it. Remember that doctors may not be as available as they are now, in the future. For example I got eye surgery to take care of my sight problem. Now I see perfectly without glasses. The advantage of laser eye surgery isn’t limited to not needing glasses. (Which can break and would be nearly impossible to replace after TSHTF)

Even people react to you in a different way. Humans are after all instinctive animals.
Bad guys will look at you as a weaker person if you wear glasses. Maybe they don’t know that at a conscious level, maybe they do, but they do react differently. This is not me imagining stuff, it’s the way things are. Old people and women are especially vulnerable. After old people and women and children, come small framed people, the smaller you are, the weaker you look, the more likely you are to be chosen as a victim by a bad guy. It sounds, cruel, and it sure is, but that’s the way it works. A young man with a well formed body, broad shoulders, muscled arms and a “don’t f*** with me” face, is less likely to be a victims of small time thieves. If a professional group chooses you as a target that’s a completely different story, of course.

Talk to your doctor a lot. Just like “The little Prince”, never stop yourself from asking a question. Adopt that as a general philosophy and you’ll end up learning a little about everything. Mechanics, doctors, policemen, you can always learn something new from people with skills. As a survivalist, and as a smart person, you should try to know a little about everything, Always be curious. That’s how I learned that I had to diversify my stock of antibiotics. A doctor told me, that the body will adapt if you always use the same, making that particular antibiotic not that effective, especially in small children, so now I keep two different kinds of antibiotics.

Working out 3 times a week, for a couple of hours will keep you in shape. I work out at home; I have a bench and some weights. Try to compliment some aerobics and weight lifting. Working the boxing bag is good exercise, works most muscles if done right, and you’ll have a much more powerful punch. Keep in mind that a bag is no replacement for a sparring partner and that the bag does not faint nor does it punch back. Still, it good exercise and your punch will be more powerful if you connect.

Running belts and bicycles are also good. Research on the subject and make your own routine, join a gym and talk to a professional if possible. Whatever you do, the idea is to have a fit, healthy body; no use in shooting ½ MOA at 100 yards if you have a gut that hangs half way to the floor and you can’t run that same distance without needing an oxygen mask. I know, shooting is fun, and working out isn’t. At least for most, but after some time you’ll start to enjoy it, your stamina and morale will definitely increase, and you’ll start looking forward to working out.

The survivalist that spends 3 hours a week on his gun skills and no time at all on his own body is not doing things right. Imagine if you have to run away from a riot/gunfight/attack while carrying your BOB or fighting bare handed against someone that got you by surprise. This applies for life in general, before or after TSHTF a man has to now how to fight bare handed. You don’t have to be Bruce Lee or Mike Tyson, just know how to through a decent punch, cover your face, or some kind or martial art classes.

I once had a fight that got a little ugly. It happened in my mother in law’s house, which proves that thing can go bad everywhere at any time. A guy my wife’s sister was dating argued with me and things got physical. He had problems with the police for beating up an ex girlfriend (which he was proud of, go figure) and had spend 2 years in jail for stealing cars. My wife’s sister was showing up with mysterious bruises on her body, from “falling while working out”. So you could say this guy wasn’t my favorite person. Anyway, he grabbed my neck by surprise; I grabbed his arm with both hands, one in his hand and the other in his elbow, and twisted it around. The leverage made him let go of my neck and a kept on twisting it forcing him around. He punched me with his other hand but the position wasn’t in his favor so it was just a glancing blow. He pushed with his back against me, so I placed my left arm around his neck, my elbow flexed over his Adam’s apple. The guy went berserk so I decided that I had to hold on until he passed out, or I would get seriously hurt. I had practiced this choking move with my friend, the one that has the farm I talked about before. He told me that after 30 seconds of choking the person passes out, and after 60 seconds, if you keep choking him, he dies.

So I placed my left arm firmly around his neck while holding my left hand firmly with my right arm, pressing as hard as I could. The guy went nuts. He slammed me against the walls, trying to get me away from his back. He started clawing with his fingers on my biceps, desperate. Me? I just held my lock around his neck, mentally counting. As if by magic, after 20-25 seconds. He lost all strength and fell to his knees like a rag doll, and I let him go.

Meanwhile my wife, her sister and my mother in law were all screaming me to stop.
Once he caught his breath he said that I was psycho, and that he was just fooling around. Not believing a word he said, I said I was sorry and we both got into the elevator, since we were leaving. As soon as I close the elevator door, the s*** bag attacks me again. I guess he felt humiliated in front of the woman he beat up. He tried to grab me the same way I did. I knew that this was getting out of hand and I completely lost patience with this clown.

I brought my serrated Cold Steel El hombre from my pocket and placed the dull side against his arm. He got the message instantly a let go of me. Once he did this I shoved him against the elevator, my forearm pressing against his neck and the knife under the neck as well. He calmed down instantly, saying he was sorry, bla ,bla, bla. When we got out of the elevator I told him that if he ever got close to me or my family again I would put a bullet in his head. I never saw him again. This guy was a thief and women beater and I had no use him. Besides these are the kind of rats that would brake into your house when you leave, or worse.

I’m ranting all over the place again. What I mean is that practicing defensive moves is useful, especially if you spar with someone that knows his stuff. My friend practices Judo. He won the state championship and was left in 3rd place in the nationals final.
Practice as you would fight in real life. Getting chocked isn’t nice, but you get to know what you are working with and know how effective it actually is. Being in shape will also make you less prone to diseases, such as high pressure, heart problems, and will boost your immune system in general.

Knowing first aid procedures is always helpful. I’ll take the Red Cross course this summer. Keep a first aid kit and any other special medicine you may need. If you take drugs regularly try to have at least a year’s worth of the stuff. Medicines are hard to get and expensive, many are made in other countries and if SHTF they might not be available. My father in law has Parkinson and needs a special medicine that is no longer imported. He asks friends that travel to get it for him.

I stock pile as much medicines as I can. Apart from the regular 1st aid kit stuff you usually have at home, I concentrate on Ibuprofen and antibiotics, both for children and adults. Antibiotics are precious here, with all the viruses that are floating around. Lung infections are particularly dangerous. Also remember that keeping a clean, ventilated house goes a long way when it comes to preventing diseases. This is hard when the city is full of filth and there are cockroaches and rats everywhere but it can be done. My neighborhood isn’t that bad, there are places that are much, much worse, where people literally sleep and eat with rats. Cockroaches are a problem, but I keep them somewhat controlled with that poison that comes in syringes and you place around the house.

That reminds me, stock up on rat and cockroach poison. Services are bad in general, and the garbage collectors are no exception. Once, they went on strike for about a week (though there are worst places where they go months without collecting) and you could see rats running around eh piles of garbage that people threw on the street’s boulevard. This is not healthy, of course. And helps spread diseases all over the city, so keep that in mind as well.

Baggywrinkle

11-03-2008, 10:13 PM

PART VI

MORE ON SECURTY: KIDNAPPING

The theory behind kidnapping is simple to explain, yet it evolved into a complicated issue that presents itself in several forms and the survivalist should understand to better defend his family and himself. The way kidnapping just popped out of nowhere it astonishing to say the least. One day kidnapping for money is almost unheard of, and within a couple of months, after the economical collapse, everyone starts getting kidnapped. The news report of about 3 or 5, sometimes even 10 kidnaps in one day in Buenos Aires city.

As time went by, the news dropped the issue and you don’t hear much about people being kidnapped any more. Does this means that the kidnaps stopped? I don’t think so. I still hear about people getting kidnapped in my own neighborhood, express kidnaps (I’ll explain later). Since my neighborhood is “nice” compared to most of Buenos Aires, I can only conclude that kidnapping is still VERY popular, but that the media isn’t reporting about it any more because of obvious political reasons. Why did kidnaps start in the first place? In a country where there were nearly 0 cases?
Because since the economy crashed, suddenly there where lots of poor people that didn’t have enough money to feed their families. This was the main reason, but not the only reason though. After the first riots and looting, it was quite obvious that the government and police had no true control of what was going on. Obviously they were overwhelmed.

Once the veil of crime=jail is lifted and people comprehend that they will not be punished for their crimes, it’s the beginning of the end people. All of a sudden, bank robbery, stealing, kidnapping and murdering people is just a matter of personal moral values, nerve and determination, and punishment is almost left out of the equation.

1) The first kind of kidnap to appear was the most common one. People were intercepted, either when walking or driving, by the band of kidnappers. Well organized bands of at least 5 or 6 members, with battle rifles, SMG’s and communications, intercept the victim with at least 2 cars.

Do not be mistaken; these guys know what they are doing. In most bands you will likely find a LEO gone bad that decided to increase the poor cop salary the gov. pays.
The victim is taken to a far away location in one of the many extremely poor neighborhoods in Buenos Aires. They call asking for a ransom, a ridiculously high one, and the negotiation starts. The person is held for a few days, maybe even a couple of weeks. If a month goes by and the person doesn’t show up, forget about it, he’s already dead. Some times they torture him too much, covered his mouth with tape “As seen on TV” and the victim chocks to death, dies of heart or health complications or they just get scared of getting caught and shot the poor guy. They get scared of getting caught not because of the police efficiency, but because most of the time one of the kidnapers KNOWS the victim. Either an employee, friend, neighbor or relative that knows that X person has money available for Y reason, either he is already wealthy, or he sold or inherited and has a large sum of cash available. These kinds of kidnap are generally very gruesome, with tapes of the victim being tortured sent to the family, fingers getting cut and other creative means of encouraging the family to pay. Survivability of this kind of kidnap is about 60%-70%, give or take. Not good.

2) The second kind of kidnap is called “Express kidnap” because it occurs fast, a smaller amount of money is asked as ransom, so that the family can come up with it within an hour or so, and if everything goes as planed the victim is released with an hour or two. This is, by far, the most popular kind of kidnap we see today in my country. Even police advice you to pay and get over with when they ask for small ransoms. The victim is chosen randomly, because of the way he/she dresses, because he/she seems to be easy to control and dominate and isn’t likely to resist the attack.
Kidnapers found out that this low profit, but fast, low risk kind of kidnap is very profitable in the long run, and does not involve the complicated and expensive logistic of long term kidnaps, where you need a place to keep the victim, feed him, someone to watch over him 24/7 , etc.

The victim of an “express kidnap” rarely leaves the car/van he/she was pulled into. The criminals Survivability is much greater than in the 1st kind of kidnap, I’d say about 90%. This doesn’t mean that the victim is in good hands. Girls are raped by the gang most of the time. Men may fare a little better, probably get beaten up a little if they are problematic. The chances of surviving are greater because kidnapers don’t know the victim most of the time, they don’t have time to worry about the “what if’s” get scared and decide to get rid of the victim, and because police is almost never involved in them. As I said, when small sums of money are asked for they recommend to just pay.

3) The third kind of kidnap isn’t nearly as dangerous as the previous ones, but you should still know about it to prepare of it better. After all, it’s all about preparing and covering as many scenarios as possible, right? “Virtual kidnaps” caught all of us by surprise. It consists on someone knowing that a wealthy person is going to be “away from town” or unable to communicate for a certain period of time and taking advantage of it. They will call the family and say that X person has been kidnapped and that they have 30-60 minutes or sometimes more to pay( depending on the time the person will be unable to communicate) The family, unable to get in contact with the family member pays, only to later realize that it was all a scam.

Some SOBs even took advantage of real kidnaps, pretending to be the kidnapers and asking for ransom before the real kidnapers got in contact. This kind of “virtual kidnap” isn’t as popular anymore, though some get caught every now and them. Most smart people make sure they always know where family members are and communicate with cell phones or tell each other when they wont be available to prevent these situations.

I dedicated some time to the kidnap issue because I firmly believe that if your country goes through an economical crisis for any given reason, desperate immoral people will find out about the fine art of kidnapping soon enough and Americans may have to face this kind of threat, which they are not used to. I personally know a man that escaped his kidnapers 3 times. Once he escaped through the roofs, by removing some sheet metal in the room, and the other two he jumped out of the moving vehicle. You must think the man is 7 feet tall, all muscle, and trained with some of the best defensive schools… of course not. He’s a short, stocky, barrel chest fellow, now in his 50s that looks like a neighborhood Italian butcher.

This man’s weapons of choice? A frag grenade and a 357 revolver. He had the grenade rolling inside the car floor among the pedals the last time I heard of him. The thing would get caught under the pedals and at least once he crashed his car because of it.
He once even shot his own mother on the hip with the 357 magnum. A patient had escaped from a mental institution and broke into the woman’s house from the back yard. The old woman called his sons and the first to arrive was “grenade guy”. As soon as he entered the house he saw the man and shot him without saying a word, missed and wounded his mother in the hip. The poor escaped patient froze right were he stood when he heard the shot.

Right after this, the woman’s other son arrived and saw his mother bleeding on the floor next to his brother, and thought that the nut case had hurt her. Thank God they stopped him before he blew the poor man’s head off. This man obviously knows nothing about the proper equipment and defensive tactics, but hey! Anyone that escapes kidnapers 3 times has my respect. So, what can we learn from this?: That even though your weapons of choice may be a little “exotic” or even down right inappropriate, DETERMINATION, MENTAL ATTITUDE, ( along with a nice dose of good old luck) is enough to make the difference. The training helps a lot, and so does the gear, but in the end it’s all about attitude.

This man gets a 0 when it comes to weapons, shooting skills and tactics, but it’s all about proper survival mentality. He’s quite the SSS (shoot, shovel and shut up guy) and for sure has a few dead bad guys on his debt, not that I’ll ever know anything about that. He managed to survive and excel in a rough business, the recycling of paper, where they deal with paper scavengers, which are not exactly Berkley college boys, if you get my meaning. His recycling company made him and his family very rich, specially now, that there are lots of poor people that scrounge paper and cardboard to survive.

Bragging about the people you kill is not a good survival attitude, and should be avoided. Seriously, if you have problems keeping your mouth shut when it comes to stuff like this, do some serious soul searching and change it. Same goes for new guns, large food supplies or new equipment you may me proud of. The word gets around fast so keep it to yourself.

And this takes us back to the kidnapping issue.

“My Scout/Squad M1A1 looks SO cool! And it shoots like a champ. They cost a fortune right now, but I was smart enough to buy it before the economy crash back in XXXX! ” You tell your mechanic, a guy you’ve known for years. Now, the guy that your friend just hired, who just happened to overhear the conversation, him you never met before. Neither do you know that he’s a problematic kind of guy that has drug problems and is always looking for expensive stuff to sell.

You are also clueless when you are held at gunpoint some days later, just when you were leaving to the office, and the first thing the guy says is “I want the guns”.
So, what can you do to protect you family and yourself from kidnapers?

1) Keep you mouth shut about everything that has economical value, or your family’s schedule. Especially be careful around people that have economical problems or drug problems, people that always need cash. Don’t trust your employees with internal business affairs. Remember, most of the time the informant is someone close to the victim.

2) Keep a low profile. I know people that even though they have the money to buy any car they want, they stick to common low profile cars. Even the private school I went to when I was a kid that has its own mandatory uniform, encouraged parents to send kids wearing regular clothes instead. Kids dressed in private school uniforms where being kidnapped all over the place.

3) Learn evasive driving. Never allow cars to cut off escape routes. Again, the use of body armor may make the difference between escaping a well organized kidnap or not.

SHTF DRIVING

Get yourself comfortable and fix yourself a cup of coffee because this is one long subject that calls for a book of its own. I’ll do my best to synthesize and tell how driving changed after the economical collapse. As always, crime directly affects the way you will drive after TSHTF. As will the price or availability of spare parts determine what car should you get. Another factor to consider is that, as I said before services will suffer in quality after TSHTF. This means that roads will no longer be what they used to be.

People that live in 1st world countries are used to well kept streets and roads. Let me tell you, after only a few months of no maintenance, street will look as if bombed from an airplane. Rain and temperature difference destroys the pavement very fast.
Right now in Buenos Aires there are holes in the street the size of trucks. There were cases of cars actually falling inside these craters, so you can imagine the conditions streets are in.

A low car, designed for perfect pavement should be avoided as much as possible. That’s why I said that if I could do everything all over again I would get a 4x4 SUV.
This doesn’t mean that you should buy a huge 4x4 truck to drive around the city all day long. That’s not very practical and you do need a fast, easy to maneuver vehicle that can get out of problems fast. A medium size SUV should be the ticket for both agility and 4x4 power. Getting stuck in a roadblock because your truck is to darn big to maneuver around it, then what’s the use of the 4x4?

There are many options out there. The small Suzuki 4x4 are good options, though a little bit fragile for my taste, maybe a Jeep Wrangler would be better. Anyway, just keep in mind that your vehicle should be a compromise between speed, ease of maneuver or agility, and 4x4 traction.

Ok, so now you spent some hours on the Internet, searched for the best option, and you bought your brand new SHTF 4x4 car. Now what? Is that it? Unfortunately no. Choosing the right vehicle gives you the tool, but you now have to learn how to use it, and it’s not exactly what you learned when you got your drivers license, as a matter of fact, it’s quite the opposite. I can read your mind “Go to sleep FerFAL. You are burned out and you make no sense” Let me explain.

Close your eyes. Look inside you. Find that little politically correct driver guy inside you, the one that was born the day you learned how to drive. You see him? Good! Grab him before he sneaks away. Now hit him, choke him, and kill that little PC driver guy inside you. I killed mine a couple of years ago. It took me about 2 years to drive the way I do now, to react without thinking. What does it mean? I no longer flinch, or stir the wheel when something comes close to the car; I keep driving as if nothing happens. A dog runs in front of the car and I don’t move an inch, a ball hits the windshield and nothing. I killed the little PC guy inside me, the one that used to say” Watch out! You are going to hit something/someone! Turn the other way!”. Reacting like that can get you killed after TSHTF.

Guys, you have to prepare for people throwing objects at your car, standing themselves in front of the vehicle so that you stop or crash against a light/tree/whatever, so that they can rob you. It takes time and determination, but you MUST get to a point where if the windshield blows in you can continue driving as best as you can, if someone puts twisted nails on the road and blows your tires, you keep calm and keep driving, always keep driving no matter what, until you get to a gas station or other place safe. Especially at night, or early morning you have to keep the car moving all the time. Of course this is not always possible. Sometimes there is too much traffic and you have to stop. In this case, slow down before you get to the cars, and keep the car moving slowly until the light changes, in order to always keep the car moving. Never cut away your own escape routes by getting too close to the car in front. Leave at least 5 meters or so in front of you, so that you have enough place to maneuver.

At night, no one stops at red lights in Buenos Aires. That’s why many districts decided to turn the traffic light to a permanent yellow at night, in order to reduce car accidents. There are places in Buenos Aires where you don’t stop at the traffic lights all day long. Today, when I was retuning from the University at 1.30 PM, I passed a red light right in front of a police patrol car. The cop didn’t say a word. He understands that no one stops on the Dark road (the road I take back home) unless it’s inevitable. This won’t happen over night. It will take at least a few months after TSHTF until cops and authorities understand the new reality of the country. Even now, there are those that may stop you from crossing on a red light at night. But most patrol cars will understand, even crossing the red light themselves.

Another variable that has to be dealt with on the street is people. People that live in 1st world countries have little problems and low stress compared to guys that don’t know where they are going to get money to feed their families next week, or when they are going to finally find a job. Fights among drivers in 1st world countries may end up in the beating of someone in the worst-case scenario. Over here, people are so nervous and aggressive that many times people kill each other. This should not be ignored guys, if SHTF the sheep will turn aggressive and might be dangerous. They will usually start a fight over a minor problem, just because they are nervous, or angry at the world. You can still get beat to death with a bat or bare hands you know? You car weaponry should take all of this into consideration. A handgun should be with you at all times, but it may be excessive for dealing with a mad driver. A bat and pepper spray will be enough to face an unarmed attacker, most times. I keep one canister of pepper spray and a small bat in my car at all times, apart form the 9mm pistol I may be carrying.

The pepper spray car tactic is the following:

1) Idiot driver starts a fight over XYZ.

2) Mad driver chases you, honking the horn, flashing lights and insulting.

3) I slow down, and let him place the car next to mine

4) 9 out of 10 times, the mad driver will lower the passenger window to insult you the better.

5) That’s when you grab the can of pepper spray, lower your own window as if for insulting and you spray him into his own car by surprise.

This will ensure that the mad driver will stop chasing you, and you prevent an even more violent episode where you would end up using lethal force. I had more than a couple of problems myself with other drivers. One Saturday night a guy in an armored truck chased me for several blocks, flashing lights and staying on my tail. I don’t know if he was mental, or on drugs, drunk or if he wanted to rob me. In this case having a smaller faster car allowed me to escape the nut driver. In another occasion a driver broke my right mirror. One time a guy got out of his car on a red light and started hitting my car. Of course, I didn’t get off the car. That would have been stupid and dangerous. What did I do? I had left some space between my car and the one on front. They guy was kicking my car on the right side. I put the gear on reverse, catching the guy between my car and his, and rolled him between the two like a freaking burrito. The guy fell to the ground, I never knew how bad he was hurt or not. I suppose that not too bad, because my car didn’t even show a small bump or dent, so it couldn’t have applied much force to the man’s body. I don’t care much, either. After going on reverse for a few meters, I shifted to 1st, turned left and left the place.

You should get to know your car and what it’s capable of. 180 degree turns using the hand brake isn’t that hard and after a day or two of practicing it you should be able to do it easily. If someone is chasing you and the situation is serious, suddenly hitting the brakes will bust the chasing car’s front, ruining the radiator and engine. You’ll crash you back side but your car will still work, his won’t.

Cars blocking the road (kidnapers, thieves) should be avoided with a 180 degree turn, or going on reverse fast and turning using the regular foot brake can also achieve a almost 180 degree turn. If you can’t go back because they have cars cutting the road there too, don’t crash your car as fast as you can “As seen on TV”. What you should do is: SLOWLY, place the front bumper of your car against the back wheel axis of the car blocking the road (they usually place the car ACROSS the road to cover more area) and accelerate. The trunk compartment, the back part of the car, isn’t nearly as heavy as the front part where the engine is, so it should turn quite easily when you accelerate. Shooting your handgun while maneuvering will keep them away from you while you do this.

These are just a couple of defensive driving techniques. If possible, take some defensive-dissuasive driving classes. They are almost as important as shooting classes, in my opinion. Almost forgot. As many, I like hearing music when driving, and I used to set it rather loud. I quickly found out this isn’t the smartest thing to do, since you can’t hear what is going on around you; shooting, people screaming, a car running out of control, for example. Keep the volume low so as to listen to what’s going on around you. Or turn it off completely if you are in a high risk area.

Of course windows and doors must be closed at all times. Also try to keep at least half a tank full worth of gas in jerry cans. There are times when a roadblock will force you around alternative roads that you didn’t count on. Extra fuel is nice to have. If room in the vehicle is an issue, have at least one small can. And, as always, keep eyes on the road. But not only for other cars and people, but for bumps on the street (that can sometimes be like craters) or rocks and other objects bad guys may put so as to make you crash or force you to stop. Your eyes should be focused much further away most of the time, so as to anticipate to this.
Part VII

Tea with aunt Sheeply

“Why do you want to move to Spain? Here you can live much, much better. Her you can afford 3 maids, and a gardener, private school, private health and tennis lessons. You can live in what Europeans would consider a mansion”.
The argument was an old one already. My mother, my aunt and my grandmother where having tea in my parents living room.
My mother was arguing with my aunt again. My father was gone before it even started. He went to fix something in the house as he usually does when my aunt is around. It’s been years since he last had the patience to withstand even 5 minutes of the woman’s narrow minded, sheep mentality ramble.
“Alicia, I don’t care about how many gardeners or maids I can afford here. You can afford to have that many people working for you precisely because there is so much misery that people will almost work for food. I’d rather live in a country where I can safely walk the streets and not have a maid. Don’t you see that the same reality that allows you to have 3 maids and a gardener is the one that can get you killed every time you walk out of your house?”
The argument went on and on, with my grandmother siding with my aunt. Not because she thinks that the reality of this country is good, no, but because she doesn’t want to see one of her two daughters leave to a country at the other end of the world.
Most Spanish immigrants, like my grandparents, hate to see the new generations, sons and grandsons, leave to the country they once escaped from, because it promises greener pastures. They escaped hunger, civil war, and now, 50 years later, they want to go back?
Old folks just don’t understand that. They had to leave everything behind, family, possessions, to give their family a better life. And in those days you just didn’t take a plane, my grand parents had to spend a month in a stinking boat to get here. They all remember that trip, and they just don’t get used to the idea of, thanks to airplanes, being just 24 hours away.
For all of them, moving to Spain means that their loved ones are a month worth in a stinking boat away.
There are many like my aunt in this country. People that, surprisingly, don’t fear SHTF, but actually look forward to it.
It means cheaper workers, cheaper services, and new exploitation opportunities. And I’m not only talking about locals, I’m talking about large international corps. as well.
What locals seem to ignore, or simply don’t care, is that you still have to live WITH those that are in a much worse position. Maybe you are incredibly wealthy, yes, but wherever you go you will have to go with an armored car and bodyguards. You wont have freedom, not real one at least.
As I said before a number of times, people will surprise you for being incredible resourceful and /or incredibly stupid.
Most of the “Herd” will simply sail through life being happy that their favorite soccer team won the finals and that they can go have a couple of beers with their friends.
Notice that not much changed since the ancient Roman times, where the emperor claimed that you only have to give the population “circus and wine” to keep them content and under control.
People like my aunt, these are the fools that love vacationing in Brazil, and think that Cuba’s communism is the greatest creation right next to sliced bread. They will come back from Cuba in love with the place. Oh! The resorts, the food, so many cheerful people. They seem to forget that if Cubans don’t put a happy face they get executed, and that they have a great time because they are tourists with money that can afford to live like kings. Why don’t they move over there without a penny, and live as Cubans really do? Let’s see if the like pimping their wives and daughters to survive, lets see if the y like living like rats. Of course they don’t.
Another issue I want to point out. SHTF such as political crisis or economical collapses take time to settle.
There wont be a declared SHTF day. Yes, there are events that are like landmarks, milestones in the course of history. But it will take time, society will change little by little, until the new reality is assimilated and accepted, consciously or not, by the entire population. After a few months, you’ll se people talking about before and after certain event that changed their world. For you it may be S-11, for me it’s life before and after the 1:1 (meaning the 1 dollar, 1 peso conversion) or life before and after the 2001 crisis. People use it on their daily conversations. “ So, you’ve been to Hawaii?, wow!” , “Yes, yes but we went back before the 1:1, now it’s impossible to pay for such a trip”, “ Yes, too bad”
This time of uncertainness, until people accept that the world around them changed, takes time, months or even years, and it’s a SLOW decline, slowly slipping down. One day you’ll start seeing more people begging, more prostitutes, houses not painted, cars will start to look a little more shabby, because people don’t have money to fix them, until one day you will tell yourself “wow, this wasn’t like this 6-12 months ago.” Things do not get accepted day over night, a SHTF event may occur in a matter of seconds, but it takes MONTHS to sink in.
That’s why you should keep an open, independent mentality, and eyes and ears listening all around you, so as to stay ahead of the herd.

Financial security, and the ability to move:
The greatest survival trait.

Which brings me to my final consideration on survival, my final conclusion concerning surviving mayor crisis.
Money.
Yes, some paper money, gold, silver, but mostly money in accounts in a couple of “safe” countries and money invested in real estate.
We had people going from middle class to poor over here. We had people going through some terrible situations, and it’s safe to say that those that fared better where those with solid finances.
Our society runs on money, people. Not only paper money, but accounts and virtual money. It would take a world wide collapse, practically the end of humanity for money to be useless as a concept.
A country, or several, even a continent can go down into misery, dragging it’s local paper money with it, but the other end will rise proportionally. I truly believe this, and history also shows that there are always losers and winners, conquered and conquerors, the balance, the ying yang always remains.
A giant meteor could destroy earth and little green men could enslave us, yes, but in the infinite spectrum of possibilities, that scenario is the less likely one. I’d rather prepare for those that are more likely. And it’s very likely that though your country can go down with an economical collapse, suffer civil war or natural disasters, you will probably have the possibility to escape to somewhere safe, greener pastures.
Hel!, that’s what thousands of Argentines ultimately did, what my family did, and what I intend to do as soon as possible.
Just last week my parents told me that they ran across some old friends that recently moved to Spain. Bad guys broke into their home with them inside, don’t know exactly what happened but it must have bee ugly, so they got fed up of the insecurity and moved to Spain with their daughter.
I consider myself a citizen of the world, and have no problem to move if I must. I strongly suggest you think about this, because it may be the ultimate survival solution. While I do believe in the stronghold, retreat concept, I do not believe it is possible to fight off an entire starved, crazed nation.
If we are going to consider long term, permanent TEOTWAWKI, do consider moving to another country, far away, and plan accordingly. This means, having money in accounts, documents and passports ready, maybe even learn a second language.
Now that I think of it, a solid financial situation and making sure his kids had a worldly, ample mentality, was all my father did, unconsciously or not, to make sure his family survived, and he sure did succeed where millions of others failed. Considering he lived in a shack with earth floor when his parents moved from Spain 50 years ago, he sure did better than the rest.
My father’s “survival arsenal” ? a 22 semi auto, a .22 revolver and a box of ammo, until I convinced him of buying a 1911. Still, we did ok. Savings and investing was the key to our survival.
The survivalist that has 5000-10000 bucks worth of weapons, years worth of food and a safe water source but no money invested anywhere is not doing things right. Even if you invest all you have on your retreat, and manage to get of the grid and live in your retreat without the need of anything else, you are pinning yourself down to one single point in the map, from which you can’t move.
Look to what happened to an entire generation of Spanish. They fled Spain escaping civil war. Look at what we are now doing over here. Moving to Spain, escaping from a economical/political SHTF scenario. See a pattern here?
I know that some refuse to leave their country because of patriotism, but you still CAN be a patriot and still leave if you have to.
Many of the most dedicated fighters had to leave my country during the “Dirty War” civil war/dictatorship in the 70’s. They where alive to come back and bring those dictators and murderers to justice, while those that stayed and fought simply got executed. Which would you rather be?
Save money, invest, travel, make new friends, visit those long lost parents in the old continent, they will be happy to see you, travel around and learn about different cultures, how to be flexible and adapt to them. This is, by far, the best advice I can give you all when it comes to bad, bad, SHTF.
Sometimes, you simply run out of options. Happened here, happened before, and happened in several places. It can happen to you.
A person is not a survivalist simply because he lives in the woods, wears camo all day long, and has always a rifle hanging from his shoulder and looking for trespassers to shoot. That is not what I want in life, and that is not what I consider a flexible, adaptable person. In my humble opinion, the survivalist can feel as comfortable in the woods as in a cocktail party surrounded by sheep. He can play both games, he can adapt. He’s a person that can smile back at those that think differently and keep his convictions to himself if needed. A person that cannot tolerate the presence of others that are not like him has a limited adaptation capability and therefore is limited when it comes to survival. Maybe he’s great at wild life survival, but not at the real world, society surviving. He’s good at the kind of survival required to survive a plane cash in the Amazons, which is great, but he cant deal with society and other people.
You have to get over the idea of the retreat being the ultimate, final survival answer to a crisis. That’s incorrect. The final, terminal solution is to leave the country or region. And that requires some social skills and savings. Keep that in mind before you spend every single penny you have on the ultimate retreat. Before anyone beats me in the head with a cinder block, the retreat/bug in house is very important, yes, it’s the semi-last solution, it’s the place that keeps you safe through small and medium crisis (which are more likely than big time SHTF), and it’s also your home, the place you are more than likely to spend the rest of your life in if nothing goes WAY down the swage. But when TSHTF in a large scale, you have to get out, as many of you advised me to do.

Final thought: A Message of Hope

Finally, I want to give a message of hope to you all, and remind you and me both that survival is about surviving, but not for the mere fact of living , but to live happy, rich lives.
Prepare because it’s the smart thing to do, and not because you are looking forward to SHTF and other disasters.
Do not make the mistake of thinking that TSHTF will be a brand new start for you, and that all your problems will just go away and you’ll have a new start in the brave new world.
It doesn’t work that way. Quite the contrary, everything will get worse, small problems will turn into bigger, more serious problems. If you have drinking problems, you’ll drink more, if you can’t keep a job, you’ll spend years unemployed, if you have a disease, you’ll see that it’s harder to get attention and medications. Again everything gets WORSE.
Someone once asked me, “How is it that you cant shoot a criminal 200 meters away, but police don’t do anything to stop them?”.
SHTF, whatever type of crisis it may be, isn’t fair. It will be absolutely unfair.
You’ll have good, honest people starving, while corrupt ones make profit, you wont have a cop to protect you but they sure will come after you when a criminal presses false charges against you. That’s the way it works.
So, anyone looking forward to TEOTWAWKI for a fresh start, better think again, and get your life straighten out NOW.
Survivalists are often considered as dark fatalists, doomsday worshipers. This is not so, the real survivalist should not be like this.
Negative people will have a hard time dealing with a crisis. It takes a positive, good natured person to make it through.
Know that there are dangers, and situations you can not predict and prepare as best as you can for them. But never forget to live life at it’s fullest.
You and I, we don’t know how long we have on this Earth, so make the best out of it, each passing minute.
A survivalist should not be a pessimist, he should always be positive, happy and enjoying life more than anyone else because he understands that each minute of peace we have is precious and unique, and he never takes it for granted.
The way I see it, the survivalist is a vital, fit, ever curious, good humored person. He’s fit because he takes care of his body, and his body takes care of him, he’s curious, because he thinks that it’s important to learn new things all the time, and he enjoys learning, he has a good humor because he’s sure of himself, and treats others the way he wants to be treated.
That’s how we should behave. Being a survivalist is 90% mental attitude. And even if SHTF does not occur in our life, that attitude makes our life more rich and fulfilling.
There are things in life we can control and others we can’t, the survivalist way of thinking makes sure we control those we can and accept those we cant.
So, if you have that mentality, either by having a fully independent homestead or simply a few funds, some supplies, a couple of weapons and bug out bags, set that chin a little higher, walk a little bit straighter, no mater if you are a doctor or accountant, trucker or plumber, be proud my friend, because you are a dyeing breed.
You are, without a doubt, a better person.

FerFAL

historycircus

11-08-2008, 02:21 AM

I would just like to ask visitors here to this thread (thus harnessing its power as a temporary top thread) to read Baggywrinkle's multi-post essay above on this page. It was placed in this thread a while back by the mods, and should be read by all Avalonians. Whether you agree or disagree, there is a lot of good effort and INTENT in Baggywrinkle's posts.

I basically just made this post to bring it back on top for a while - so that Baggywrinkle's work gets another shot at being read.

Thanks, and more from me about survival later. . .

R.Z.

11-08-2008, 03:10 AM

"FerFAL" maintains a blog here:

http://ferfal.blogspot.com/

What happened in Argentina could, very well, happen here - pointers from one who has experienced what is only "theory" to most of us, should not be overlooked.

historycircus

11-08-2008, 03:22 AM

I actually had an altoid survival kit when I was younger (I was out on my own younger than most) - Not nearly that good (or well thought out) however. I think this blog is a good reminder about the possibilities in maximizing space. It is amazing what you can pack in a candy tin, is it not?

historycircus

11-21-2008, 05:13 PM

Before reading the following post, please review these two websites:

This site shows exactly where the U.S. federal government owns land in the United States:

http://www.nationalatlas.gov/printable/fedlands.html#list

This site takes the above numbers and puts them in a percentage map format:

http://strangemaps.wordpress.com/2008/06/17/291-federal-lands-in-the-us/

33% percent of all U.S. land is currently owned by the federal government. 80% of that federal land is in the American west.

Keep in mind that Native American "reservations" are owned by the federal government "in trust," and given the historical nature of U.S. Indian policy, some are more heavily watched than Times Square. The BIA infests these lands with agents, and sadly, use many Native Americans for this purpose. Also keep in mind that under BRAC, there has been a slow drain of military personel from the east to the west. We all know the rumors about Denver - some of which, despite my own skepticism, have an eerie basis in known fact (almost as if there is no attempt to hide it anymore). Also keep in mind that some sort of coastal or seismic cataclysm in Cali would send millions of refugees streaming into the immediate interior, and while they might just be confused and hurting souls looking for a place to stay, they will invite great scrutiny from our friends at FEMA.

Long story short, I am not the type that sees the boogey man in everything - I often tend to think that the boogey man most tend to see is thier own shadows. However, for those who may be planning communities or seeking refuge in the American west in the coming years, you may find yourself in a crowded neighborhood, surrounded by the very lot who motivated you to move in the first place.

My advice to all of you buying land in the west, or settling in pre-established communities there: take a four day hike in every cardinal direction from where you plan on sleeping at night. Know the terrain - the creeks, ditches, obstacles, etc. Be prepared to leave at the drop of a hat, and to do so on foot. Know where the closest military installation is; know where the nearest local town or towns are located. Do your homework before investing, and always, ALWAYS, have a plan B.

KathyT

11-29-2008, 10:05 PM

How to shoot a bow. I would not suggest compoundbows. They may have more power but also need more maintenance and once it's broken it's very hard to fix.
Give a compound bow to an unskilled archer and you may find it in pieces within a minute.

My husband is a tournament archery shooter, and my son as a youth was a state champion for his age group. My husband has hunted with bows and disagrees with you when it comes to compound bows. Compound bows would be his first choice.

One, they are far more accurate. Two, they are stronger. Three, there is a ‘let off’ at full draw so that you can aim better. He has shot in tournaments for five years and never has had to rebuild or repair the bow.

My husband suggests not making home made arrows, they can be dangerous if you don’t know what you are doing. They can shatter when you release/shoot them because the force can bend them in half. My husband has seen it happen. He suggests, join an archery range and learn from those who are experienced.

He also suggest subscribing to the magazine, "The Backwoodsman".

Big guys want to draw 60 or 80 pound bows. As it is ridiculous to hunt for little game on a distance of more than about 15-25 metres no such drawingweight is required. A 35-50 pnd bow will do fine .
Remember you don't want to be the worlds Archerychampion but you want to get yourself a rabbit a day and if nessecary be able to "shoot it from the hip" and that requires a completely different skill.

Here we have deer, turkey and bear, and when you run out of rabbits, you'll wish you had something larger. Instead of taking rabbits with a bow, use a snare, it's more efficient.

In Calif., and some other states, the law says you can not hunt with a bow less than 55 lbs.

Kimmie

11-29-2008, 10:14 PM

bump...

Alot of great info on this forum

thank you all who have posted it

bump...bump, bump!!

Much love and support,
kimmie

Peer

11-30-2008, 12:52 AM

My husband is a tournament archery shooter, and my son as a youth was a state champion for his age group. My husband has hunted with bows and disagrees with you when it comes to compound bows. Compound bows would be his first choice.

One, they are far more accurate. Two, they are stronger. Three, there is a ‘let off’ at full draw so that you can aim better. He has shot in tournaments for five years and never has had to rebuild or repair the bow.

My husband suggests not making home made arrows, they can be dangerous if you don’t know what you are doing. They can shatter when you release/shoot them because the force can bend them in half. My husband has seen it happen. He suggests, join an archery range and learn from those who are experienced.

He also suggest subscribing to the magazine, "The Backwoodsman".

Here we have deer, turkey and bear, and when you run out of rabbits, you'll wish you had something larger. Instead of taking rabbits with a bow, use a snare, it's more efficient.

In Calif., and some other states, the law says you can not hunt with a bow less than 55 lbs.

Hai KathyT, being an archer for over 25 years, having made my own arrows for a long time I do know what I am talking about.
I know what I am talking about, I have repaired bows and strings.
For instance putting a string on a compound bow requires special equipment that you will have to carry with you.
Deer and turkeys can be had with 45 lbs easily.
Remember native americans shot buffalows with 20 lbs bows.
Once carbon arrows are damaged they can't be reused, same with aluminum actually the same problem with firearms: Once out of amo they're worthless.

I believe your husband saying he did 5 years without having any trouble with his bow but if you are out in the open all day, every day there are a lot of other dangers for the bow:
A sharp stone could cut the string and that will in most cases mean the end of a compoundbow because it IS so powerful.
Then all of a sudden just the grip will have to handle all that power and the chance that the bow will fly to pieces in one single snap is very likely, the stronger the bow the more likely and I hope I will not be sitting near it.
I 've seen it happen but as far as accuracy is concerned: yes you can be more accurate with a CPbow although I am trained to shoot without any sight or release or other aiminghelps and I never lossed a duel when there was a couple of beers to win. :naughty:

And I agree: One must train, as you must with a rifle or a handgun and not only the shooting but also the making of arrows, bowstrings and repairing the stuff because when things really go wrong you can't go to a store and buy whatever you need.
You are on your own.
Also the different kind of arrows like razorheads, blunts and birdstoppers.

Bows have an advantage over guns as well:
You can't commit suicide with a bow. :mfr_lol:

KathyT

12-03-2008, 04:11 AM

One way to get started with learning about ‘woodsman’ type of things… is go to your local library and seek some books.
One I recommend, if you can find, is “Wildwood Wisdom”, written by Ellsworth Jaeger, published in 1945. It may be difficult to get unless cooperative Library sharing can dig it up. Arrows and guns are not even mentioned in the book… because these other things really are broad and important.

There is a ton of important stuff in a book like this.
The chapters, by content, are as follows:
Outdoor Clothing
Packs and Packing
Blankets and Beds
Shelters
Fire Making
Use of Ax and Knife
Outdoor Sanitation and Health (drinking water, garbage disposal, poisonous insects and reptiles)
Camp Cookery Equipment
Camp Cookery
Useful Animals and Birds
Edible, poisonous and Useful Plants and Trees
Barkcraft
Canoes, Canoeing and Portaging
Trailcraft
Stalking and Calling Animals
Lost… nature’s compasses
Indian Lore
Camp furnishings
Woods in the Winter

A lot of this you can’t learn in weeks… it takes years to gain the experience. Getting away from cities and living where you have the opportunity to experience the plants, animals, and terrain, will be helpful. Get youth involved in 4-H, Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts where you can learn together.

See what else your Library has to offer.