Zeitgeist Addendum**must see** [Archive] - Old Project Avalon Forum (ARCHIVE)

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able

10-04-2008, 07:14 AM

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7065205277695921912&ei=rBLnSMuaNZrUqAPKl7TkCw&q=Zeitgeist+-+Addendum

and

http://zeitgeistmovie.com/

EYES WIDE OPEN

10-04-2008, 09:15 AM

Zetgeist Adenndum http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7065205277695921912

first part is about the economy.

Circlewerk

10-04-2008, 09:38 AM

I thought about the 2nd one coming out this month, perfect timing.
I was in tears by the end, not because i was sad, but because the truth delivered so eloquently, moved me.
Addendum is a must see.
Whether you have seen Zeitgeist or not, it is powerful, it reminds you of the perfect, beautiful truth.
One.
Division, on any level, is a lie.

Thank you for bringing the link here, I've expanded, again.

Circles,
CW

Evolution22

10-04-2008, 09:44 AM

Make sure you have a clear head cuz its loaded with info...

http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/

aiwass322

10-04-2008, 09:49 AM

Zetgeist Adenndum http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7065205277695921912

first part is about the economy.

Thank you! :trumpet:

EYES WIDE OPEN

10-04-2008, 10:10 AM

I alreadt made this thread half an hour ago. http://www.projectavalon.net/forum/showthread.php?t=4130

please check before you post. :)

EYES WIDE OPEN

10-04-2008, 10:11 AM

No problem. I have not seen it yet. Will watch later today.

Racsouran

10-04-2008, 10:29 AM

relax a bit about this :P

VEC

10-04-2008, 11:35 AM

henners

10-04-2008, 12:39 PM

Just watched the new Zeitgeist movie "Addendum". WOW:shocked: Not that we didn't suspect as much but the way it was explained makes it obvious to all what is going on. I am showing it to some friends soon to guage their opinion. Will report on the findings.

Pomguymguy

10-04-2008, 01:10 PM

Zetgeist Adenndum http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7065205277695921912

first part is about the economy.

Thanks, Eyes Wide Open - Much more meaning than the first Zeitgeist - This is for ALL the children of the World - :mfr_lol:
But it will be very difficult for many to give up the TOYS - not just the kids either - Bring it on - can't wait - but it has to happen and I am sure it will
Pomguymguy:)

smat

10-04-2008, 01:22 PM

Thanks for this, I've just watched it and I think that everyone on this forum should watch it too. It is really informative on how inflation and interest work and how these corporations use this to enslave the world.

Sarahmay

10-04-2008, 01:31 PM

Exarx

10-04-2008, 02:17 PM

i consider this movie to be the most important movie ever made. This one really opens ones eyes in a way that no other movie/documentary ever made.

really in line of my beleifs as well.

Mike_Jetson

10-04-2008, 02:28 PM

Halfway through. This is easily so far my fave film to get others involved. So much fact and no fear mongering. Terrorstorm and Zeitgeist 1 are close but so far this one is the one

THE PEACEFUL WARRIOR

10-04-2008, 02:52 PM

I hope you have not missed the new Zeitgeist movie that is available at http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/

Should fit the purpose of this site as a glove i think. Its everything but doom. And it is free.

Hey VEC,

Nice one THANKS for the HEADS UP on this being posted on google, I knew it was imminent and up and coming but didn't have a date.

EVERYONE and I mean EVERYONE...MUST WATCH THIS NOW!

If you wanna understand the truth of reality, you need to understand the LIE your LIVING IN.

Note to you all: THERE IS NO REAL MONEY!!

It's the truth and it is fundamental to understanding WHY you work, WHY you pay taxes and WHY...YOU ARE an ECONOMIC SLAVE and WHY the whole house is tumbling down around our ears....

THE SYSTEM is fatally flawed...ITS ALL A LIE, IT DOESNT EXIST, none of it, not a cent, not a dime, not a penny, not a peseta! I will say it again in case you missed me THERE IS NO REAL MONEY!

PLEASE Guys and Gals WATCH THIS MOVIE IT WILL HELP YOU LOADS!

One Love - One World - One People

PEACE OUT :yikes:

Mike_Jetson

10-04-2008, 02:55 PM

Its not a re-edit of the 1st one, its a completely different film and prob the best film to pass on to friends i have ever seen so far

Luigis Mushroom

10-04-2008, 03:11 PM

Yeah, the first part could have been much better if he did a little bit more research instead of making impossible jumps in symbolism and history. He should have just read "The Sun: A Universal Deity."

I honestly felt like the first zeitgeist was government conspiracy for 12 year olds.

Jeremiad

10-04-2008, 03:17 PM

I think this is the movie we all need to burn to DVDs and pass out. I know what I'm going to be doing next weekend...

333mark333

10-04-2008, 03:25 PM

Awesome........if the people who watch this fall back into the great sleep then what's it gonna take??

Thanks VEC

SpaceMonkey

10-04-2008, 03:28 PM

WOW! just as great as the first, it very important that as many people as possible watch both films. I sadly feel that it is getting too late for us to do anything, but each day i am amazed at how many people are waking up, and that gives me hope.

Adarajones

10-04-2008, 04:00 PM

Dear friends, brothers & sisters,

This new movie " The Zeitgeist" (ADDENDUM) is so profound....... I have no other words to describe it. It is truly earth shattering.

Enjoy it, share it with others.

http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/main.htm

FREEDOM & LOVE TO ALL:lightsabre:

LightSaber

10-04-2008, 04:05 PM

Loved the first, suspect I'll love this. Thank you.

:lightsabre:

pineal-pilot-in merkabah

10-04-2008, 04:13 PM

concur with space monkey :)

Ampgod

10-04-2008, 04:14 PM

Just ordered dvd, thx. Good to have for my collection.:thumb_yello:

Peace,
Ampgod

Mike_Jetson

10-04-2008, 04:52 PM

Its never too late. And a decent length venus project vid from jacques the legend :)

http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-499406752461114587&ei=n4_nSJq4HIvSjgKoyoiVCw&hl=en

I totally agree if your friends and family dont get inspired by this after watching it through fully then its pretty much all over for them until their lives become hell and they are forced to come looking for advice and help.

This is in my view the best 2 hour vid you can show friends, if anyone has something better right now id be surprised

Oiran

10-04-2008, 04:57 PM

An eye opener:

"Of all the social institutions we are born into, directed by and conditioned upon, there seems to be no system as taken for granted and misunderstood as the monetary system. Taking on nearly religious proportions, the established monetary institution exists as one of the most unquestioned forms of faith there is. How money is created, the policies by which it is governed, and how it truly affects society are unregistered interests of the great majority of the population.

In a world where 1% of the population owns 40% of the planet's wealth, in a world where 34,000 children die every single day from poverty and preventable diseases and where 50% of the world's population lives on less than 2 dollars a day, one thing is clear -- something is very wrong.

And whether we are aware of it or not, the lifeblood of all of our established institutions and thus, society itself, is money. Therefore, understanding this institution of monetary policy is critical to understanding why our lives are the way they are. Unfortunately, economics is often viewed with confusion and boredom. Endless streams of financial jargon coupled with intimidating mathematics quickly deters people from attempts at understanding it; however, the fact is, the complexity associated with the financial system is a mere mask designed to conceal one of the most socially paralyzing structures humanity has ever endured." ~Zeitgeist II

SirKnight

10-04-2008, 05:23 PM

WOW the wait is over. Just downloaded it, watching it now. Another GREAT job. A continuation of the 1st one.

:thumb_yello::trumpet:

Hypnotize

10-04-2008, 05:25 PM

Zetgeist Adenndum http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7065205277695921912

first part is about the economy.

Thx for the link man. I'm watching it now.

EpiphaMe

10-04-2008, 05:27 PM

I'm only 40 minutes into the production and I'm just sickened. In the word's of the economic hitman, humanity, certainly the American people are just not aware of how this elitist "empire" has been built, the American govt's clandestined involvment. Explosive exposure! Pass it on to everyone.

EYES WIDE OPEN

10-04-2008, 05:39 PM

i too agree that paret one of the 1st film is very poor. the rest is great mind you. I am now about to watch addendum....

Softy1107

10-04-2008, 05:44 PM

Thanks 4the headsup, will defenetly watch this!!!! :biggrin2:

Jenny

10-04-2008, 05:50 PM

http://www.projectavalon.net/forum/showthread.php?t=4148

I merged that thread with this one so you won't have to hop from this one to the other.
You are welcome.

Jenny

Steve_G

10-04-2008, 05:58 PM

I think people are being too hard on the first film. I think it was meant as an introduction for people who had little or no knowledge of the conspiracies that surround us. The different areas are hugely complex but if you want people to begin to see you need to show them an overall picture first. I think it does that job very well. Details of over-simplifications can be sorted out later.

EpiphaMe

10-04-2008, 07:28 PM

Absolutely Revolutionary... 2nd half is the hope of mankind, factual presentation of technological solutions.. blows everything wide open! YES ! Please pass on to everyone. I hope it's already been translated into other languages!

Chris Parson

10-04-2008, 07:29 PM

ugh carl sagan's smarmy voice makes my skin crawl

EYES WIDE OPEN

10-04-2008, 08:27 PM

I actually love Sagans voice. i find it rather trance like.

I love this bit of wisdom :

Chagellenging ones belief system usually results in insult and apprehension, for being wrong is incorrectly associated with failure when infact to be proven wrong should be celebrated, for it is elevating someone to a new level of understanding, furthering awareness.

OceanWinds

10-04-2008, 08:46 PM

I loved the first one... it was very thought and conversation provoking . And the second one.... is BRILLIANT!

I love it because it doesnt go into conspiracies. It puts light on degenerative actions of pretty much everything that is hold humanity back, and then offers solutions. And like someone else said, this is best introductory movie I have seen.

Thankyou Zeitgeist :thumb_yello:

tandiwe

10-04-2008, 08:51 PM

Just watched it. Can't say I loved it because what of what I (and we) are all living now. However the fact that it actually proosed solutions was the one thing I truly thought was valuable. Most of the other docs that expose the dreadful con that is being perpetrated on the human race do not propose anything and one is left thinking well what can I do? But this is truely an excellent piece of film as it proposes solutions that are viable and achievable. So i did "love" it. I just wish I was in a detached property so I could get myself off the grid. And bring the non-wage slavery on, I know I will be spending my time in philosophy and art if I live to see it!

:trumpet:

Tx

Pure_energy

10-04-2008, 09:49 PM

Cheers mate. Very good vids... it makes me wonder why are we living like this... its just not right... I saw the zeitgeist the movie about 2 months ago and now the new one is even better... thank you again for post it...
Lets make the changes and give the true life for ours ofsprings.

Jenny

10-04-2008, 09:52 PM

http://www.projectavalon.net/forum/showthread.php?t=4125

I merged again 1 more thread on Zeitgeist addendum.

have a nice time.

Jenny

Lare

10-04-2008, 09:55 PM

This is a must watch for every human. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7065205277695921912

Jenny

10-04-2008, 09:58 PM

And again I merged 1 more thread...

Thanks guys!

Jenny

human

10-04-2008, 10:28 PM

great movie, thanks to the author and all people involved in making this

the political system should be discredited to... just don't vote, i know i only voted once, then i realized what BS is everything

not voting is the easiest thing to do in order to show them that you do not need them

not using banks, using alternative energy, those are things a little more complicated this days, but not impossible; it takes some time, but will be done :naughty:

Seva

10-05-2008, 12:01 AM

Zeitgeist: Addendum

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7065205277695921912

http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/eye2.jpg

Machinamentum

10-05-2008, 12:36 AM

Awesome Job Zeitgeist! Just watched it thanks to Avalon. I had been waiting for this for over a year and had forgotten all about it. :biggrin2:

Chris Parson

10-05-2008, 01:19 AM

I actually love Sagans voice. i find it rather trance like.

he's a lying liar
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nAUCr9OorXU

convergence

10-05-2008, 01:38 AM

This crucial documentary was just released:

Zeitgeist part 2

http://zeitgeistmovie.com/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SAZi-gQENkk

Also available through bittorrent/usenet

An eye opener for many, I think.
And the contents of this documentary might just align many in a vision of a more positive future path.
First half is an evaluation, second half describes a positive alternative.

Let's all focus on a harmonious future.

Or you could do both.

Prepare for the worst Deagle scenario just posted on the Camelot frontpage, but don't panic, and at the same time meditate for the best, most positive vision that you can create within yourself.

May we all succeed together in bringing this about

Circlewerk

10-05-2008, 02:03 AM

he's a lying liar
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nAUCr9OorXU

I see you focus on what you don't like, which is the messenger instead of the message..
Anything you DID find positive?

tacodog

10-05-2008, 02:33 AM

I watched Zeitgeist 2 in the wee hours of the morning. Towards the end of the movie, when the light started to travel all over the world, tears were rolling down my cheeks. Tears of hope and joy and an understanding that yes, there is something I, we can do. To create such change may be to some impossible, but I say, it is worth striving for. Envision a world of light and acting upon that vision….what better way to be of service to others as well as myself. I did something I have never done before. Usually I don’t say anything unless one asks my opinion. Like many of you, they think I am nuts. Today I sent my whole family and extended family links, clippings, and asking them to prepare themselves for a financial crisis. To wake up and research what is happening in the world around them. I even went so far as to say: Let us not fear, let us be brave and ride out the storm, and let us not succumb to darkness - envision a world of light instead. I normally do not impose such things on people.
I totally agree on a date, time, and duration for mass meditation, not just once but often. 100th monkey syndrome until all can see that yes, we can envision and have such a world. If we specify a time such as everyday perhaps, we will all know the time and can participate in mass meditation should the internet go down.

Chris Parson

10-05-2008, 02:39 AM

I see you focus on what you don't like, which is the messenger instead of the message..
Anything you DID find positive?

about what? zeitgeist addendum is amazing. i just don't like carl sagan or his smug voice.

EYES WIDE OPEN

10-05-2008, 09:13 AM

And again I merged 1 more thread...

Thanks guys!

Jenny

just want to say you are really on the ball when it comes to moderating & merging. you are doing a great job. :)

EYES WIDE OPEN

10-05-2008, 09:21 AM

he's a lying liar
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nAUCr9OorXU

Carl was one fo the most inspiring people to walk the planet. Do some reserch. Read Contact, Pale blue dot or Cosmos.

Sagan did think it plausible that governments were misleading their citizens about UFOs, and that "some UFO reports and analyses, and perhaps voluminous files, have been made inaccessible to the public which pays the bills ... It's time for the files to be declassified and made generally available."

Dont be so negative. If a beliver like myself can admire Sagan, even given his skepitcal views on ufology, then I dont see why he should be labled a liar. :thumbdown: He is only stating his opinion. big difference.

love & light.

bennycog

10-05-2008, 10:11 AM

we must all be doing something right if these guys can get this information out and not be killed.
who are all the people associated with this doco?
who is funding this doco?
now we have all seen this documentary. we need to look at all people involved and quickly. we need to see the credibility of those involved to help us know that what is in this to be true. the proof in this doco is immense i know. there is probably not much time left to figure it all out, (if most other threads are to go by). if you wanted total love, truth, and pure light to break through, we need to discuss these and every issue. remember this whole project was created for the ground crew.
The ground crew is supposed to help people wake up by teaching or calming those that have not woken. Those asleep are not going to think love and being calm will save us.
Therefore it needs to be broken slowly to them. and our investigations into this documentary might just be our only way to communicate. so bound together ground crew.
benny

bennycog

10-05-2008, 12:15 PM

one of the people involved in the documentary is.

Jaque Fresco. he has a website called simpleology.com.
in this website he is teaching people how to draw, and tells them to use this teaching to make money.

i think this needs to be explained as he is asking everyone to get away from the monetary system.

Roxanne Meadows (another person involved in the documentary) backs him up on this website.

I understand that we have to make money in this society, at the moment, until we are self sufficient. i think we just need to hear from these people as to why they participate in helping others participate in globalism.
benny

bennycog

10-05-2008, 12:41 PM

http://www.prahlad.org/gallery/krishnamurti.htm

the guy talking in black and white.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Carlin

comedian quoted.

zuni

10-05-2008, 01:03 PM

Thanks...i watched it yesterday.....wow it gave me hope for our future again !!!!!!!

bennycog

10-05-2008, 01:17 PM

http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/sources.htm

lists all involved.

EYES WIDE OPEN

10-05-2008, 02:28 PM

bump...

Chris Parson

10-05-2008, 03:08 PM

Carl was one fo the most inspiring people to walk the planet. Do some reserch. Read Contact, Pale blue dot or Cosmos.

Sagan did think it plausible that governments were misleading their citizens about UFOs, and that "some UFO reports and analyses, and perhaps voluminous files, have been made inaccessible to the public which pays the bills ... It's time for the files to be declassified and made generally available."

Dont be so negative. If a beliver like myself can admire Sagan, even given his skepitcal views on ufology, then I dont see why he should be labled a liar. :thumbdown: He is only stating his opinion. big difference.

love & light.

if you take anything burisch or wilcock has to say seriously about looking glass, then sagan was clearly informed about it all.

and i've got a carl sagan book on my shelf right now. demon haunted world. its all about how each and every one of us on this forum is delusional and hallucinating.

Zynox

10-05-2008, 03:16 PM

I actually love Sagans voice. i find it rather trance like.

Trance is one tool utilized to impregnate mind memes, mind-fu*ks and all forms of mental parasites. Once we enter trance, we are susceptible to suggestions, as many religious ceremonies and rituals have adopted ~

~ love and namaste, my sisters and brothers ~

Zynox

10-05-2008, 03:24 PM

iits all about how each and every one of us on this forum is delusional and hallucinating.

I accept that my experience may be perceived as that of an inmate in an asylum, however, I have been spitting out my meds after the orderly leaves the room, soon, as all the residual toxins clear, I'll be outside the hallucinatory realm ... and, the War in Heaven will be more clear ... white hats, black hats or free-soul > I Choose Free Soul (Magi, creative in imagination) ...

~ love and namaste my sisters and brothers ~

cakewhole

10-05-2008, 05:01 PM

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7065205277695921912&hl=en

Kundaflower

10-05-2008, 05:27 PM

My dear seva,

Nice that you put this here...
I think biggest gift in this is the simple explanation of the monetary system..

Explanation of imperium building section was ok..

" Weapons of mass creavity " ok... list here...

1. expose the bank cartel
2. boycott the news
3. boycott the military
4. boycott the energy companys if possible...
5. reject the political system
6. create critical mass..

I didnt like so much tecnology religion kind of preaching...
I think there is other solutions for that...who want..

Otherwise better than first zeitgeist..

kundaflower..:wub2::wub2::wub2::wub2:

Zelphael

10-05-2008, 06:51 PM

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7065205277695921912

Or at www.zeitgeistmovie.com

A must watch. This film is meant to tell us the answers to the problems the first film revealed. I'm about it watch it now.

AndyH

10-05-2008, 08:31 PM

This should perhaps be made a sticky?
One of the best (if not the best) truth vids I've seen thus far.
At this present time of economic crisis, showing this to others would be a real hard hitting eye opener.
I'm going to be emailing this link to as many people as possible (using bcc of course).
My own personal opinion is that we are on the brink of a change in conciousness...from power to ethics. It merely takes a critical mass.

Theresa

10-05-2008, 08:35 PM

just want to post a consideration of this film.

A patriot friend of mine said that the promoter of the film festival in LA recently that featured this film is connected to the UN.

He found that info by following the links from this website www.zeitgeistmovie.com. His take is that they may be "highjacking" this film for their luciferian agendas, as in using it in "reverse psychology."

The only way I could imagine that would serve them is in their plan to emerge as the "white knight" to save humanity after they "punish" or expose the bad guy front men, ie, banks, politicians, when they are done with them.

Just something important to consider.

EYES WIDE OPEN

10-05-2008, 08:39 PM

Trance is one tool utilized to impregnate mind memes, mind-fu*ks and all forms of mental parasites. Once we enter trance, we are susceptible to suggestions, as many religious ceremonies and rituals have adopted ~

~ love and namaste, my sisters and brothers ~

I didnt say sagan put me in a trance! Jesus, thats a jump! Are you suggesing that I was in an actual trance? get a grip amigo! :LOL: I just like the meter of his voice.
You cant say anything on here without it being interpreted to the nth degree!

EYES WIDE OPEN

10-05-2008, 08:43 PM

if you take anything burisch or wilcock has to say seriously about looking glass, then sagan was clearly informed about it all.
.

Right, once again, thats a massive leap & I cant see your logic at all. How did you reach the conclusion that Sagen was "clearly informed about it all".

What has that got to do with wilcock or burisch? (The least 2 convincing of the camelot witnessess IMO) Please explain. Otherwise your comments just seem totally unrelated.

I also have demon haunted world. Its a great book! You seem to have missed its point.

Anyway, this is all going horribly off topic.

Chris Parson

10-05-2008, 08:43 PM

rather than moving all the zeitgeist threads into one that doesn't even say zeitgeist in the thread title, why not at least change that thread title to say zeitgeist so we don't get a new thread every hour that gets moved

Chris Parson

10-05-2008, 08:47 PM

Right, once again, thats a massive leap & I cant see your logic at all. How did you reach the conclusion that Sagen was "clearly informed about it all".

What has that got to do with wilcock or burisch? (The least 2 convincing of the camelot witnessess IMO) Please explain. Otherwise your comments just seem totally unrelated.

I also have demon haunted world. Its a great book! You seem to have missed its point.

Anyway, this is all going horribly off topic.

all the looking glass stuff seems to be 'hidden in plain sight' in contact.

even if sagan was not informed, he's still delusional and CONVINCED that there's never been any ET contact and there's never been a demonic possession and there's never been telepathy, etc etc.

i just don't think anybody can be that smart and that deluded.

i don't like him.

elirien

10-05-2008, 08:56 PM

http://www.prahlad.org/gallery/krishnamurti.htm

the guy talking in black and white.

about krishnamurti:

http://www.gnosticteachings.org/the-teachings-of-gnosis/the-writings-of-samael-aun-weor/the-krishnamurti-case

notice that this is a theosophic society page, whom were behind aryanism and their 'mistress' helena petrovna blavatsky's book "the secret doctrine" was one of adolf hitler's most favored ones.

addition: the writer of that paper: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samael_Aun_Weor

(..)Into the 1960s, he continued to write many books on topics, such as Hermetic Astrology, Flying Saucers,[21] and the Kabbalah. However, he also wrote sociopolitical works such as the Platform of POSCLA, a Latin-American Christian Socialist Party, which attacks the doctrines of Marxism-Leninism and any other aspect of "Materialistic Atheism". Members should be well versed in the Protocols of the Elders of Zion [24] and have a profound knowledge of Buddhist egolessness [25] and Yoga Ahimsa[26] to eliminate the Secret Enemy (the cause of war) from the macrocosmic social milieu: the personal life.(..)

EYES WIDE OPEN

10-05-2008, 09:01 PM

all the looking glass stuff seems to be 'hidden in plain sight' in contact.

even if sagan was not informed, he's still delusional and CONVINCED that there's never been any ET contact and there's never been a demonic possession and there's never been telepathy, etc etc.

i just don't think anybody can be that smart and that deluded.

i don't like him.

You are still making a leap. Hidden in plane sight? Come on man!
You are adding 2 and 2 and getting 5.
Carl spent years speaking with physicist Kip Thorne about how long distance space travel would be possible for research for his book Contact. They came up with the Einstein-Rossen Bridge mechanism that is used in contact. It has NOTHING to do with stargates, Burish & so on. Because you don't like him, you are twisting facts to fit your agenda of him being a liar.
Carl has said some incredibly profound things. If a contactee like myself can admire the man, even given his sceptical views on ufology, then I think you should be able to go back and give him another chance.
Just because he has a different truth to your truth or my truth it does not make him a liar. That he is a liar is YOUR assumption and betrays your biasness.

Also, I see you totally ignored the quote from Sagen I posted where he says its likely the governments of the world may be holding back UFO files.

RIP Carl. You are much missed.

Chris Parson

10-05-2008, 09:06 PM

i hold sagan responsible for this bizarre wave of science zealots who have no regard for common sense. they are so certain that "strange things do not happen" that they dismiss any and all evidence immediately and without scrutiny. sagan assures them that they are completely safe and sound in their assumptions.

don't make me start quoting this book
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y297/mentalnote/Photo1197.jpg

my suspicion is that he was informed. just like you said. he said it is likely that the government was hiding stuff. he probably knew a lot more than that. doesn't change the fact that he influenced the collective psyche in profoundly negative ways.

you might miss him, but he would still say this entire forum is collective insanity and that we're all deluded and hallucinating.

EYES WIDE OPEN

10-05-2008, 09:16 PM

"he influenced the collective psyche in profoundly negative ways."

How can you say that..?! Sagan was an inspiration to millions. I have no idea why you posted that photo either. Baffled.

If you want to talk about those that are so certain that "strange things do not happen" that they dismiss any and all evidence immediately and without scrutiny, the look no further than Michael Shermer.

Anyway, its clear you are unwilling to even consider changing your mind.

Lets just agree to disagree & leave it at that.

Chris Parson

10-05-2008, 09:18 PM

inspiration to millions to keep their heads buried in the sand. new york times best seller.

Chris Parson

10-05-2008, 09:22 PM

"sorry you think you were abducted. turns out you're just crazy."
- carl sagan

EYES WIDE OPEN

10-05-2008, 09:26 PM

carl had his faults, I am not disagreeing with you but I think you need to reconsider your view of him. It is terribly one sided.

And yes, he was inspiring & profound :

For small creatures such as we the vastness is bearable only through love.

Imagination will often carry us to worlds that never were. But without it we go nowhere.

In order to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first create the universe.

Personally, I would be delighted if there were a life after death, especially if it permitted me to continue to learn about this world and others, if it gave me a chance to discover how history turns out.

Where we have strong emotions, we're liable to fool ourselves.

halebox

10-05-2008, 09:28 PM

I just loved the end great.

EYES WIDE OPEN

10-05-2008, 09:29 PM

"sorry you think you were abducted. turns out you're just crazy."
- carl sagan

As I stated before, I am a contactee and have accepted that people have a hard time dealing with that. Just like carl did! :naughty:

However, I still consider Carl a hero of mine.

Acceptance is a great thing but not easy to do. :winksmiley02:

wes_whitewolf

10-05-2008, 09:30 PM

It was once again an excellent piece and very well done. Glad they brought to light the Venus Project and their vision. Just wish we could get the rest of the world to watch it so they can pull their heads out of their asses and do away with this monitary system and the criminals behind it.
Can you imagine what the rest of the Universe thinks of us?:tears:
I can see my star brothers and sisters shaking their heads in disgust.:lmfao:

Chris Parson

10-05-2008, 09:30 PM

he even said he thought panspermia was likely in cosmos. that comets could very likely be seeding life all over the universe.

he seems too informed to be as naive as he pretended to be.

Colin

10-05-2008, 09:30 PM

Chris Parson

10-05-2008, 09:32 PM

Ummmm..the title does say Zeitgeist Addendum

didn't say that when i wrote that.

Zelphael

10-05-2008, 09:33 PM

Guys, please keep this on topic, about the film directly.

My opinion:
No other film has made me cry so many times, and I can't remember the last time I cried.

This is the answer. This is the way forward. The way that we can live abundantly and in harmony, and practically. This isn't airy fairy new age nonense - this is the plan, the things we can start doing individually to make the change.

Chris Parson

10-05-2008, 09:34 PM

he's a lying liar
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nAUCr9OorXU

listen to the smug arrogance in his tone

he sounds like reverend lovejoy

EYES WIDE OPEN

10-05-2008, 09:34 PM

Apologies for going off topic. I said what I wanted. :)

wes_whitewolf

10-05-2008, 09:37 PM

Of course its always a wonderful thing when someone uses Bill Hicks' comedy to drive home a point.
Really miss Bill...along with George Carlin:lmfao:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSH6ofHbeUw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J10w3FuCwfQ

EYES WIDE OPEN

10-05-2008, 09:37 PM

listen to the smug arrogance in his tone

he sounds like reverend lovejoy

Quoting yourself? Change the record. Its getting repetative & boring. We both said our peice. No need to repeat yourself.
Stop being so negative. OK, I will say no more.

sunnyrap

10-05-2008, 09:39 PM

Thought I might interject before anyone starts duking it out that Mercury is retrograde and Mars and Pluto are in aspects that make miscommunication and hasty words almost irresistable. Something to keep in mind if it seems someone is 'coming at you'. Energies and emotions are really overamped right now with all the events of the hour anyway. I've seen people over-reacting on just about every thread (and have been snapped at several times myself over comments I thought had zero reactivation value).

Chris Parson

10-05-2008, 09:43 PM

bennycog

10-05-2008, 10:13 PM

hey guys,

can we have a chat about how they were able to get this to the public. and how fantasticly it was made. without intervention by the shadows.

Sol

10-05-2008, 11:14 PM

I honestly felt like the first zeitgeist was government conspiracy for 12 year olds.

That was the idea. And i tell you, by my own experience, it's way hard to achieve.
Look at the all buzz that the film got from mainstream around the world. And how many millions views on google?! How many "awakenings" is it responsable for?

Innacuracies? Shure has! Like we all have, say or write.

peace

EpiphaMe

10-05-2008, 11:50 PM

I, for one, will admit that I was ignorant of the fractional reserve banking system and had to backtrack a few times to take notes for later review & comprehension.
Through the yrs I ran across bits & pcs but never had it portrayed in such a manner that is so easily understood.

And I've not yet read one critical word on this thread that negates the portrayal of the system ! To me, this film was revolutionary in its presentation and we simply must be the ones to endure the transition, however ugly it may be!

In the light of the present global economic crisis, it doesn't matter to me who put it out, nor what agenda might be behind it because the system has to GO... is responsible for the pain & suffering of the entire world. But I will say that it took a long time for this to be revealed, considering the pervasive use of the internet these days.

Thank you Chris Parson for letting your take on Sagan fall to the wayside, as 1) your opinion of someone is none of my business 2) it's not required in life to like everyone 3) ad hominems do tell of intention.

The 2nd half of the film gave the entire presentation its true value. Solution, vision, for without this, it's just another venting without direction.

Here we stand, quite possibly facing a very ugly revolution... but it has to be.

lotusflower

10-06-2008, 01:20 AM

Hello all,
I just finished watching Zeitgeist Addendum and feel a renewed sense of hope for our futures here on Earth. There can be NWO but not in the negative, slavery driven way intended by the Elite to control us but a global awakening of conciousness that all will benefit from. It is possile if we all stand together. The movie suggests ways of how to begin this positvie transformation. Please to all, watch the movie..It is a bit long but definitly worth it.

"Emancipate yourselves from mental slavery, none but ourselves can free our minds." Bob Marley

IT STARTS NOW

Reveling John

10-06-2008, 01:28 AM

With a much lighter heart than I had a couple days ago, I concur.

This work (not really a documentary, more of an art piece) is one of the most awesome new media creations I've ever watched. It's about SOLUTIONS.

This can work. We can do this!

:thumb_yello:

Reveling John

10-06-2008, 01:30 AM

Just in case, here's the link,
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7065205277695921912

Great Love,
John

Reveling John

10-06-2008, 01:33 AM

Peace of Mine

10-06-2008, 03:16 AM

Jacques Fresco, and Roxanne Meadows, who are featured in ZII, wrote the book: The Best That Money Can't Buy. They built a Model of their vision in Venus, Florida, near Okeechobee. [URL="www.thevenusproject.com"]

We took our grandchildren, 8 and 12 at the time, for a visit. Jacques sat us down in front of a model of his perfect world. He talked about organizing society to meet the needs of the people, for shelter and food and transportation, for education and recreation, time for family and community and travel. As he talked, Jacques illustrated by manipulating the robots and digging out the canals or showing a family sitting in front of a computer choosing and furnishing their home. Even the 8-year old was so enthralled he sat still and hung onto every word.

Roxanne then escorted us around the 25 acres where the domes they built themselves replicated the IA homes envisioned. It was easy to imagine everyday life with survival taken care of, with music, drama, art, or time to check out a kayak or a skateboard or a computer. It seemed so simple, why weren't we living this way now?

Our grandkids could discuss the ideas with depth and intelligence after spending two hours with Jacques and Roxanne. All the way home, we talked about how we could live in a world without the need for jobs and money and business and profits.

Now, my Granddaughter struggles to pay for insurance and fuel for her vehicle by working after school at Winn-Dixie. Tired to her toes, working for peanuts, does she dream radical dreams of a fair and sane future? Is she the generation that will Just Say No to Wage-Slavery?

Zeitgeist II makes it easy for me to stir the pot so that her discontent builds. Isn't it fun, creating this new world with delicious anticipation? This chaos signals that our time is at hand.

Operator

10-06-2008, 03:49 AM

Here I have yet another post :naughty:

The film introduces this project (http://www.thevenusproject.com/), which I had never heard of. Now I want to work on the front lines, in whatever way possible.

The Venus Project (http://www.thevenusproject.com/)

Yeah, me too ... would start there right tomorrow morning ...
Sadly, there is no contact page on the website ...

Maybe we should get inspired about starting something like this ourselves scattered all over the world.

Boy have I failed so far ... that's why I originally moved to this place almost 5 years ago. I started a few things
but not close to something like this. The feeling is there though and the inspiration too ...

man did this film awake me ! (on this front) :trumpet:

raulduke

10-06-2008, 07:10 AM

Just watched it last night. Useful information and suggestions indeed.

Did anyone see the trailer:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1172807855110808149&ei=QLjpSJ6GB4KM-QHv2-3IBg&q=zeitgeist&hl=en

George Carlin: "...and eveyone's got a cell phone that makes pancakes, so they don't want to rock the boat"

Spot on.

George nails it again:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-818425435261424499&ei=gLnpSKCbDovw-QHQyNkC&q=george+carlin+nails+it&vt=lf&hl=en

UsAndThem

10-06-2008, 08:38 AM

I love how everyone bashes the first zeitgeist for the start? Why is it false? What makes any religion factual, where are any facts indeed that are not stories or beliefs that disprove his findings which mind you are based on Jordan Maxwell and Acharya S research? What he says is very true, that it is one gigantic story. And in the newest one he solidifies this. His work is based on the research of Jordan Maxwell. I challenge anyone out there to research as much as this man has done. Everyone is very quick to write off things that are outside of there belief systems and ideas of what is reality, this movie is asking you to look outside of these pathetic illusions we believe to be true and WAKE UP!! Religion is the biggest tool of divide and conquer and prays on the weak minded. What Joseph presents on religion, and what Maxwell's research has shown is no more nonfactual than all religious belief structures and what they preach to be right! Religion is a massive tool in what they plan to achieve, and if you cannot get your head around that...........well then you have a long way to go. He may not be right in all aspects of the religious story, but who the hell is??? Not even religious scholars can agree on anything!!!! Hence all of the wars and bloodshed!

bennycog

10-06-2008, 08:56 AM

i am just trying to get my head around how this movie can actually be one of the most perfect i have seen that really would wake, well, everyone up who watches it.
now dont you think that these elite would have prior knoweledge of such a tool to wake up the masses. they did not interesect and still have not.
does this show that they are now dead in the water or they were never there at all?

swordsmith

10-06-2008, 10:17 AM

Just want to say I briefly met Peter Joseph ( Zeitgeist 1&2 creator) in London and found him to be a very sincere and even humble person. He took the time to talk with me and my daughter , we spoke about mind control, chemtrails etc, and what he was going to do next. He was a good listener , too.
I am thrilled with how he has worked out how to reach people where they live in his latest film, ie MONEY and the big lie behind it all.This could just work. And how incredibly timely, too!

It's a fantastic job and I think Zeitgeist 1 is a wonderful introduction for people who know nothing of the conspiracy against us, but are willing to take a peak behind the curtain at the string pullers.

I'm going to send this to all the people who thought I was talking bollocks.
I am grateful TPTB are taking the **** with this orchestrated money collapse, finally we may get some sheeps turning into peeps.

BTW, I also love Peter Joseph's voice as well as Carl's, kind of like a mental massage.Whats wrong with that?

elirien

10-06-2008, 10:56 AM

Tuza

10-06-2008, 10:58 AM

I would appreciate your links elirien please. Thank you in advance.

swordsmith

10-06-2008, 11:23 AM

oh, and just wanted to say, the mode of highspeed travel mentioned by the venus project is apparently already in existence/use in the deep underground military bases according to Phil Schneider and others.
What would jet lag be like from 4000 mph travel ?

UsAndThem

10-06-2008, 01:29 PM

lumping religion all together into one cult is quite wrong factually. jordan maxwell has many deliberate errors which he refuses to correct (like the other persons who use his research like tsarion and icke). I'm not pro religion but pro fact.

I could direct you to some sites that have checked their evidence if you'd like and feel that you are ready.

Yeh but what is fact to you? Like i say, what is fact or fiction? They are all just beliefs. See beyond the mistakes Maxwell makes, and the belief structures and holy books in all religious structures, it just confuses everyone. Maxwell may be wrong about some "facts", but that's not the point, the point is that religion has been used to brainwash society dude, not help.

Got to see the big picture, not these pathetic little factual games. This is what divides people!! Hence my original post. I never said it was a cult, i said it was a tool, a system to control, much like the monetary system we live in. Just another tool! Money divides people into classes, and religion divides people "spiritually" not that it is spiritual at all. I don't need to see the evidence, what is their evidence based on? The bible? What they were told in school? Geee sounds like everyone else. I have seen the Jordan Maxwell debunked links, I've seen them all. No need for the links thanks.

EYES WIDE OPEN

10-06-2008, 01:46 PM

Stephen

10-06-2008, 03:40 PM

Sir-Chi

10-06-2008, 05:36 PM

The first was excellent now the very timely "Zeitgeist 2" which happens to deeply go over the economic system along with much more.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7065205277695921912

Hope my galactic brothers and sisters at this amazing forum get as much out of this as i did.

To a Rise in Consciousness
with much,
love, light and laughter
Sir-Chi:wink2:

Jenny

10-06-2008, 05:39 PM

,

Jenny

nestingwave

10-06-2008, 07:14 PM

I carefully watched both movies twice.

How timely!

As this huge fraud collapses people will really start to wake up fast. Some will manifest their me me my my mine selfishness and others will cooperate to help others. Eventually, the New Paradigm which is a growing vision in so many will become manifest. Meanwhile the old must die because it simply is not sustainable any longer.

It has been a zombification of total insanity and all of us have bought into that meme. We are now seeing the expected outcome of such selfish illusion.

I know many are panicing as they loose everything they cling to and have assumed was the meaning of their life. However, the old way is FINISHED FOREVER. The age of "for sale" is over permenantly.

This econimic melt down was suppose to be controlled and go down according to schedule but that was a miscalculation. The illuminati controllers are now fully EXPOSED and can no longer dupe the world.

They will be dismayed to see that do many people will cooperate and use teamwork to overcome the deprivation. You see, these selfish despots just assumed that eveyone was a greedhead like them. A tremendous miscalculation due to their tunnelvision and arrogance.
Yes, we are facing some years of chaos and turmoil but what we saw in at the end of Zeitgeiss II will no longer be hindered to rise up.

I think David Wilcock was right. The controllers are very scared and upset because THEY HAVE LOST and inwardly know it. Hoisted upon their own petard because in their assumptions did not take the human heart into consideration. Nor its valor, apprecaition and compassion. These are things which they simply cannot relate to and they are the undoing of those tyrants.

I also think David is correct that there will be no "nuclear war" because ETI has shown us several times that they will NOT allow that because they are the caregivers of Mother Earth and want us to wake up to the fact that we are too. When it comes to raping Mother Earth by splitting the atom to murder millions, this simply cannot be allowed because what happens here EFFECTS the entire Universe and other realms beyond our frequency. Such insanity is cedrtainly not the will of the peoples of this planet and the hand full of despots that would trash this planet in thier suicidal self destruction as their hatred lashes out in their dying moments, will not be allowed.

Many think ETI is just an onlooker. Contactees know better. ETI is VERY interested in our transformation out of this total insanity.

I thought it was interesting in Zeitgeiss II how clean energy alternatives were shown that didn't even include the biggest one of all, which is already waiting in the wings --- energy from the vacuum (Dr. Tom Bearden, John Bidini and many others.) FREE energy forever. ALL the free energy we could ever need.

The fact is, we ALREADY have the technology to accomplish what was shown and much more.

NO MORE MONEY. PERIOD. No need for it. When people are free to follow their biss for the good of all, there will be NO lack of motivation as the mind control programming has enculcated us to believe.

So, in the long run, this economic melt down is necessary and positive. No more banks? So what. Good riddance. No more politics? Excellent. No more "for sale?" No more STATE? Some simply cannot conceive of that because they are so brain washed. All these things are ... transformative.

This is the greatest leap in consciousness that can be imagined and is beyond imagination.

Peace be unto all,

nestingwave

md3inaustin

10-06-2008, 08:53 PM

Hope they have fixed the inaccuracies, because mostly it was a powerful film except for the first part. (I have no problem being down on religion, but it just wasn't factual). Thanks for posting this!
Hi Sarahmay: What in whole or part was not factual? I'm looking for info.

Thanx,
~ md3inaustin

STicKY_EyEs

10-06-2008, 08:59 PM

WOW!!!!!:yikes: I JUST WATCH IT AND I AM TRULEY SPEECHLESS!!!!!!!
This movie is a true eye opener. I TRULEY DONT FEEL THE SAME.....:rm_robot:
People please pass the word about this movie please!!!!!

Peace and Love to ALL!!!!!

Sir-Chi

10-06-2008, 09:09 PM

I'm very happy this film finally came out. The first was awesome and i must have handed out at least a 100 copies.

Peter Joseph does an excellent job of giving everyone a spherical look at our reality from a micro to a macrocosmic view.

Zeitgeist films & the amazing interviews of Project Camelot are excellent examples of how easy it can be to effect the consciousness of many and uplift life.

Chris Everards films though on the darker side .... really gives a close look at who the secret societies really are but i feel the real key is to focus on a global ascension.

TO A Rise In Consciousness
with much,
love, light and laughter
Sir-Chi

Stephen

10-06-2008, 11:11 PM

Now watch this by Naomi Wolf:

YouTube Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_XgkeTanCGI

This was a recent inteview on October 3rd.

I believe she has a good grasp on what is going on directly under our noses....

undetected

10-07-2008, 02:04 AM

Just watched it. The movie is brilliant. The mere fact that somebody put this together and managed to spread it among thousands of people in a few days is a great sign of the transformation already in progress.
[I wonder, do we have some hackers who could hijack some satellites and broadcast the movie on some mainstream TV channel? That would be fun, heh. Well, wishful thinking but anyway.]
I want to express thanks and respect to the makers of this movie. The timing is perfect too. Great job!

DJModer

10-07-2008, 03:54 AM

Does anybody know the people who made the Zeitgeist movies? They spend time to do research and to make these wonderful movies yet to give them away for free. I appreciate the work they do and would like to know how they are able to compile the latest financial information into movie and release it at the right time.

The project venus is very interesting and is very futuristic, but it seem to be difficult to implement without reeducating people to learn how to take care of each other. The new system will never operate properly using people from the current monetary system that are full of greed and laziness. I also want to know where do they get this idea from since it is very similar to what Alex Collier indirectly described.

To make this project a reality, people need to see a real example of a city. They will probably need to convince the oil companies and the corporate bankers to step down from their power and how could this be possible?

To make this possible, we need to make the money useless, most of the earth population will be wiped out and start over from the people with the new education system and philosophy. In addition, the zero-point energy technology needs to be revealed and introduced to make to VTOL aircraft a reality. This can be as evil as the NWO or is this a result of the NWO?.

RaKaR

10-07-2008, 04:43 PM

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7065205277695921912&ei=rBLnSMuaNZrUqAPKl7TkCw&q=Zeitgeist+-+Addendum

and

http://zeitgeistmovie.com/

Dear Able,

Thanks for the links.

I just watched 'Zeitgeist: Addendum', it is one of the most revealing experiences i have ever had.
I have the feeling - i would actually better say, i am convinced - it is The Line i have always been looking for in this physical Incarnation.

I have therefore taken the Decision, from now on, to invest all my Will and Strength to bring the Ideal of Zeitgeist as close to my daily Reality as possible.

No matter what happens further, i will not go back to the System i am now leaving behind. Definitely.

I would like to share this Choice with all the Comrades on this Forum.

Behold The Future, it is within You!

RaKaR
www.futureofmankind.co.uk

Reveling John

10-07-2008, 05:29 PM

The burden of proof lays with the producer of Zeitgeist. If he wants to convince skeptics & change peoples minds, he is going to have to be accurate.

Burden of proof? Who's trying to prove anything?

If you do not already have some inward suspicion that what you have been trained to believe and the *way things work* is profoundly false, these movies will not prove a damn thing to you.

Zeitgeist and Zeitgeist Addendum are confirmations of what those who resonate with the films feel as an intuitive condemnation of our society. An *intuitive* and *experiential* wisdom that this is not the way things aught to be and that anyone who is attempting to preserve the relevance of existing institutions and societal structures, or of belief systems like *religion*, *scientism*, and *history*, is utterly and dismally out-of-tune with the current wave of reality.

Proof and corroborative evidence are paradigms of a past system of belief.
Experience, what you feel inside, is the new truth and it will necessarily be different for every single entity who has an awareness of this existence.

Down with materialism. Down with abstractionism.

Welcome Experientialism.

What do you FEEL is TRUE?

Reveling John

10-07-2008, 05:39 PM

I have therefore taken the Decision, from now on, to invest all my Will and Strength to bring the Ideal of Zeitgeist as close to my daily Reality as possible.

Right on, Rakar. I also felt, possibly from beginning to end, that I was in full resonance with the film. By the time I reached the final list of possible actions that can be taken, I felt,

"I am unwilling to continue to participate in a system that is so blatantly unfair, unjust, and unwilling to commit to a future that is guided by Love."

And to counter that:

"I am compelled to commit to any service or task that will bring into being a society in which all basic needs of ALL peoples are accounted for and allows humanity to pursue it's central and most significant objective: The Creation of Dreams as Experience."

Yesterday, while out for a long walk I had this great thought:

"I am here on Earth for the beginning of civilization. This is so awesome."

:lmfao:

I suggest that anyone who feels in resonance with the film go to this site on October 10th (Friday):

http://www.thezeitgeistmovement.com/

Levi

10-07-2008, 05:45 PM

RaKaR

10-07-2008, 07:58 PM

Good Vibes to you, Reveling John,

Watching Zeitgeist was like listening to your own dream being, somehow, told by a third person. It profoundly resonated with my entire Essence.
I just wanted to do something. Straight away.
The conviction which i always have, that is, that there is not such a thing like fatality, that we, Humans, are co-creators - that the reality and the World we live in are but the result of my choices, decisions and deeds - is utterly strengthened by that Experience.

After i read the testimony of the first member at the thread 'Zeitgeist: Addendum - interactive', i went on to send the link to all the addresses i have on my PC - including even those of compagnies by which i applied for work in a recent or far past!

It is indeed up to us. It is Time for a Change a Paradigm.

I would like, in this respect, to find a way to bring the Perspective of Zeitgeist, as a Global Vision, in the context of the Communities, the Ground Crew, we are now building at Avalon.
One idea is to open a list of Avalon Members willing to go the Path of Zeitgeist; to have, already here within this Forum, some thorough exchanges of ideas about the Practical Ways Forward and to join The Venus Project - when it get launched, Oct. 10th, indeed - as a Solid Crew, united by Will and Convictions.

Any suggestion in this sense would be highly appreciated.

Peace and Wisdom.

RaKaR
www.futureofmankind.co.uk

Happy_Days

10-08-2008, 10:58 AM

:shocked: WOW!! What an amazing film!! :shocked:

I think everybody should watch this and pass the link on to everyone they can.

I think it would also help for people to view it via Google Videos, that way, there is a chance it will appear on the top of the 'Most Watched' lists and become visible to even more people.

Andy

RaKaR

10-08-2008, 03:23 PM

:biggrin2: Very Nice Movie :biggrin2:

I think it's i very good movie to awake people, because it's explained
pretty good for 'normal' people. I already sent the link to much of
my friends!

I'm very curious about the zeitgeist movement! Hopefully it
will be such a success as Project Avalon!!!:thumb_yello:

Hi, Honorable Levi,

I am utterly convinced that Zeitgeist/Venus Project will see the light.
The movement is already gaining some steady pace here, at Avalon.
In case you are not yet aware of it, there is a thread opened by Member Xammy, where the Practical Steps and the Emotional/ Spiritual Preparations towards this New Paradigm could be thoroughly discussed - 'What we are supposed to do' onder the section 'General Discussion'.

Behold The Future, it is within You.

RaKaR
www.futureofmankind.co.uk

elirien

10-08-2008, 08:06 PM

Yeh but what is fact to you? Like i say, what is fact or fiction? They are all just beliefs. See beyond the mistakes Maxwell makes, and the belief structures and holy books in all religious structures, it just confuses everyone. Maxwell may be wrong about some "facts", but that's not the point, the point is that religion has been used to brainwash society dude, not help.

Got to see the big picture, not these pathetic little factual games. This is what divides people!! Hence my original post. I never said it was a cult, i said it was a tool, a system to control, much like the monetary system we live in. Just another tool! Money divides people into classes, and religion divides people "spiritually" not that it is spiritual at all. I don't need to see the evidence, what is their evidence based on? The bible? What they were told in school? Geee sounds like everyone else. I have seen the Jordan Maxwell debunked links, I've seen them all. No need for the links thanks.

First of all, if you don't like facts then you're entitled to your oppinion. i don't get mad at that idea. it's a ride. everyone doesn't have to search for fact and truth.

Although if you'd like to open up a little bit more and check out some christian guy's research which is not bible based but fact based then i can redirect you to these links (I didn't check them all out):

NTR - William (Bill) Cooper Debunks Jordan Maxwell

http://nowheretorun.podomatic.com/enclosure/2008-08-26T20_53_45-07_00.mp3

http://conspiracyclothes.com/nowheretorun/ra/movie/cooper_debunks_%20maxwell.wmv

"Astro-Theology" is ********

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mtmO36tmuT0

Nowhere To Run - Evidence for the Existence of Jesus

http://conspiracyclothes.com/nowheretorun/audio/ntr_062108.mp3

http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=36830437

Nowhere To Run Zeitgeist Challenge responds to Acharya S

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8296054934404709290

NTR - The Nicaea Myth Debunked

http://nowheretorun.podomatic.com/enclosure/2008-09-22T23_16_21-07_00.mp3

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmS90DPa6cw

Zeitgeist debunking links
http://zeitgeistchallenge.com
http://ct.grenme.com/index.php/Zeitgeist_Part_I
http://www.preventingtruthdecay.org/zeitgeistpartone.shtml
http://www.tektonics.org/copycat/copycathub.html
http://www.thedevineevidence.com/jesus_similarities.html
http://www.kingdavid8.com/Copycat/Home.html
http://zeitgeistchallenge.com/component/option,com_weblinks/task,view/catid,2/id,8/
http://educate-yourself.org/lte/zeigheistandacharya01aug0...
http://www.zeitgeistresponse.info/
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7572663630528394775
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPXc1QcmYDY
http://www.alwaysbeready.com/index.php?option=com_content...
http://benwitherington.blogspot.com/2007/12/zeitgeist-of-...
http://www.christian-forum.net/index.php?act=ST&f=15&t=14...
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread286883/pg1
http://zeitgeistchallenge.com/component/option,com_seyret/Itemid,32/
http://www.allaboutreligion.org/is-jesus-god-aar-afb2.htm

source: http://www.conspiracyclothes.com/nowheretorun/index1.html
http://nowheretorun.podomatic.com/

note: I couldn't care less if Chris White is wrong on his claims. Actually it would be quite nice if you could prove him wrong since that would further the debate.

Here you go guys.

Zelphael

10-08-2008, 10:11 PM

Elirien,

When are you going to let go of the shackles you keep yourself in, and finally be free?

Heretic

10-08-2008, 10:29 PM

from the similarities between the Jesus figure and many other figures found in theo-mythological texts alone, one can see that the Jesus story is not an account of the man who we base Jesus on but a superimposed character. These similarities should shock and alarm people concerning Jesus

these proofs are in the public domain and are simply a part of history which predates Christ, it is rather undeniable when compared to these mythological figureheads that the Jesus figure is a composite character

I have yet to see any explanation brought forth from the Christian community that can explain away the shocking similarities between the Jesus story and countless others that are near xerox copies of themselves

looking at proofs written by people desperately clinging to a beautiful belief structure that they refuse to let go of, will do nothing because the basic proof of the similarities of the Jesus story with older stories told over and over are absolutely undeniable

Although

lets not forget that the message the Christ myth brought us is very profound and has merit all on its own. We can certainly learn alot from it if we simply cut out the parts that require blind obedience and submission.

Do not turn your back on religion altogether simply because some of it is regurgitated rhetoric spoken from a priesthood of control. There is great wisdom to be found there and many great secrets rest in religion, especially the ancient ones.

peace

Stephen

10-08-2008, 11:42 PM

elirien

10-09-2008, 09:11 AM

Elirien,

When are you going to let go of the shackles you keep yourself in, and finally be free?

I'm free more then a bird Zelphael. I'm not bound by group think and movements. I am not even bound by any religion. Although most truth researchers are beginning to tie themselves down with the teachings of the mystery schools. Zelphael, listen to the links. It will help you open your mind to other perspectives which are from real awakened people who happen to be real christians (couldn't care less).

If you are gonna listen to your prejudice then think about this:

- they bring facts to the table (which no channeller or even david icke can for his reptilians)
- Even though they are christians they don't use biased information except when so called truth people use the bible and either have misinterpreted it or totally quoted it wrong (mostly on the sitchinite stuff).
- christians aren't the bogiee man and christians doesn't mean catholics. there is a huge difference of time before the catholics take the scene.
- I am from a Muslim country trying to push this information from some american christian dudes that are just checking out the claims these people made. I am the least likely guy to promote christianism. That doesn't mean you should trust me but hear me just say "I couldn't care less if these guys are wrong or not. I just want to further the debate so that we can see the whole picture on this matter".

please check the info out and write me back.
don't be new age biggots or fundy truth seekers :biggrin2:

elirien

10-09-2008, 09:14 AM

elirien....
Have you watched this:

America: Freedom to Fascism - Director's Authorized Version - 111 min - May 5, 2007

Google Video Link: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1656880303867390173&hl=en

oh yeah man. wonderful film. I don't know if I had exactly watched the director's authorized version (it was last year i think). thanks for the recommendation. You should watch "The Corporation" if you still didn't old dood. It's like an introduction into these matters. man, if just the other forums were open we could have posted these as individual topics so people could have written comments.

---kinda spoiler---
Anyways, very good film starting with the federal reserve system and ending well like... Zeitgeist The Movie :)
---kinda spoiler end---

elirien

10-09-2008, 09:22 AM

EpiphaMe

10-09-2008, 05:36 PM

RaKaR

10-09-2008, 05:59 PM

Excuse me, but this thread is about ZEITGEIST ADDENDUM, not the first Zeitgeist film (about religion). It's is not about Beliefs, it's about the FRACTIONARY MONETARY SYSTEM, explained in an easy to understand manner, the origins of the monetary crisis we find ourselves in....then goes on to talk about solution.

I'm writing this gentle reminder because after I had passed the link on to my friends the very day it was released, a few wrote back that they'd already seen it, assuming I was talking about the first Zeitgeist.

The discussions above indicate that you've lost track of the thread's title.

Absolutely correct, EpiphaMe, and discussions around particularly the Future oriented(solution) of 'Zeitgeist: Addendum' are currently held at the thread 'What we are supposed to do' by Xammy and the thread 'Zeitgeist: Project Venus Pioneers' (http://www.projectavalon.net/forum/showthread.php?t=4658; http://www.projectavalon.net/forum/showthread.php?t=46230.

Your contribution would be highly appreciated.

Regards,

RaKaR
www.futureofmankind.co.uk

Red

10-10-2008, 02:11 PM

Have anyone seen "the Zeitgeist Addendum Review" by Alex Jones??
Apparently he hated it..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EyQtN4HY4Ko&feature=related

hmm :winksmiley02:

RaKaR

10-10-2008, 02:32 PM

Red

10-10-2008, 04:02 PM

Yes, obviously..
maybe my "winksmiley02" there was confusing, so just want to make it clear that I realy loved the Addedum movie. Just so you know! :naughty:
But I allmost lost some respect for Alex Jones after listening to this. Tho I guess he means well.. Tho then again, I almost feel like he WANTS people to live in fear sometimes..

It's like you say, a matter of taste and Weltangschauung

Take care friend!

RaKaR

10-10-2008, 04:33 PM

You too, Red.

See you around!

RaKaR
www.futureofmankind.co.uk

Norval

10-10-2008, 05:57 PM

Zeitgeist Addendum,

Ok, They threw out the baby (bible) with the bath water. :thumbdown:

I wonder if they would rethink their understanding with acceptance of ET / UFO bible connection knowledge? :original:

Many great points in the movie, except their religionization of the bible. I am in full agreement
about religions, bad governance, national attitudes and that we should become one as knowing
our true humanity. With comprehension of a much bigger picture than just our world mankind is
also on the brink of the ET / UFO disclosure. That then puts the spin to how about mankind
learning about ET governance and social acceptance in the galaxies? The bible, it's not about
religion but about an intergalactic oneness that is already established. You may want to read it. :original:

elirien

10-10-2008, 08:00 PM

Excuse me, but this thread is about ZEITGEIST ADDENDUM, not the first Zeitgeist film (about religion). It's is not about Beliefs, it's about the FRACTIONARY MONETARY SYSTEM, explained in an easy to understand manner, the origins of the monetary crisis we find ourselves in....then goes on to talk about solution.

I'm writing this gentle reminder because after I had passed the link on to my friends the very day it was released, a few wrote back that they'd already seen it, assuming I was talking about the first Zeitgeist.

The discussions above indicate that you've lost track of the thread's title.

So talking about the films perspective on belief which was detailed in the first film has nothing to do with the film it self. Wow. Sorry but you sound like people that use the sentence: "I think god meant to say...".

It is a piece of the film. I think debating the details of a film is a indication that you liked it.

Zira

10-10-2008, 10:05 PM

Utter rubbish. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EyQtN4HY4Ko

lovepromoter

10-10-2008, 11:14 PM

very good video, bring on the resource economy of tommorow..... spread the word, join the www.zeitgeistmovement.com

dolphin

10-11-2008, 12:45 AM

Have anyone seen "the Zeitgeist Addendum Review" by Alex Jones??
Apparently he hated it..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EyQtN4HY4Ko&feature=related

hmm :winksmiley02:

yeah, i lost some respect for alex jones too...i don;t think he quite got the whole concept of zeitgeist addendum and project venus. he made points referring that the elitists do the same thing then control the monetary rewards...what he doesn't get is that project venus is suggesting a NON-monetary system. so alex is assuming that someone at the very top will reap all the rewards.

alex just doesn't get it.

dolphin

10-11-2008, 12:48 AM

yes me too RAKAR, i'm going to send the zeitgeist addendum and project venus links to EVERYONE i know. you have to remember that people can't unhear something.

i think just by taking the small steps that the film suggests, we all can in some way participate right now in our NON-Compliance to the current paradigm!

Heretic

10-11-2008, 01:10 AM

elirien

10-12-2008, 08:41 PM

I agree that Acharya's book was interpretive as far as trying to UN-define Christ, in fact it was a dreadful read and difficult. Yet that isn't the evidence that has most people scratching their heads. It is the near blatant similarities between the characters she claims he was based off of.

She really doesn't even have to do alot of convincing here for me. The mythologies hold their own weight. I have checked many of your links and none do any more than nit-pick on dates and minor discrepancies that in no way challenges the similarities as a whole.Most make a subjective attempt to pick on enough minor issues to cause doubt, and then cry foul because there are some minor discrepancies.

I don't think that these are minor issues if someone claims something and it is not based on fact but on opinion. Which mythologies have you read and of which similarities do you speak? I know of Horus that he was conceived by Isis who was impregnated by Osiris in the land of the dead (nothing virgin about her. You could even claim she was one sick **** lol).

If it were just Horus, Dionysus, or Mithra and the similarities that border on exact matches on a couple maybe...but there are sooo many that it is undeniable that there is an existing blueprint out there that has been used over and over again. You can even remove Christ from this entire puzzle and still the the footprints remain of an archetype used over and again.

Yet I am open to being wrong here, in fact that would be cool because this issue has alot of people asking questions. Screw all of the other literature on why anyone is or is not correct, the focus can stay only on the mythology to solve this riddle in my eyes. I would LOVE to understand more why the similarities are so remarkably alike amongst so many figures of worship in our ancient past, so I remain open to further proof along these lines only because the rest is just a quagmire of rhetoric that even the scholars cannot agree on.

I can understand that. But the main problem here is not what religion is but what Zeitgeist thinks religion is. As far as I have seen the Jesus of the Bible and the Jesus of the Quran are not solar deities that Acharya S, Zeitgeist and Jordan Maxwell (as well as the people that reference him like David Icke) claim he is. At least not on a historical, theological level and of course factual level. Once again, I'm not claiming anything but that these claims are proven to be false and must be corrected.

By the way, I totally agree with Alex Jones on his analyses of the second film. The Venus project just smelled centralization on the first watch and that is not a good thing for me. Someone in the David Icke forum mentioned that even before Alex had posted his comments. There are alternatives to what Zeitgeist and The Venus Project present for energy production and monetary solutions. I need to analyze marx and engels approach more to comment further.

These are my opinions which have nothing to do with the topic but I think I have to share:

I have people proving me that masonry, satanism, mormonism and many other conspiratorial beliefs are in their core luciferianism. Now why the hell would that be important to people that are very intelligent and do many occult rituals? Why do many conspiracy researchers abhore christianity, make these false claims that they can't prove and don't admit that they are wrong and that they can make errors (like any normal human being)? That messes up their credibility in my opinion and casts big shadows on their other works and sources.

It makes christianity look holier then ever in my opinion (and I'm not a christian) since it is being battled with such ferver to no success. I see the same thing with these unjust wars against the muslims that are raging on for years now. these people probably have some very important truth which is trying to be slandered and disguised for years.

h0lyh0ly

10-12-2008, 09:08 PM

am downloading it right now.

Reveling John

10-12-2008, 10:01 PM

just check the info out my friend and especially acharya s. claims. there is no historical fact pointing to that as far as I have seen and if you got one get your butt over to zeitgeistchallenge.com and get your money of these dudes and please post your conversation with these people containing all info you have shared. I can't get myself to trust just Maxwell/Massey/Acharya S. rhetoric of existing evidence which I can't see.

I feel quite blessed by your informed skepticism, Elirien. It will only make the truth more clear for everyone. It is especially appreciated because of the heat you have to take from those who are still unsure of their own truth, and therefore attempt to bully you into believing (is this not what all religions do?).

Having said that, have you read this statement from the zeitgeist movie (http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/q&a.htm)site?

(1) There are many in the religious community making films and posting websites denying the relationship of prior religions' influence on Christianity and maintain the disposition that Horus and others do not share the attributes the film claims. What is your response to this?

All Part 1 "debunkers" do one or more of the following:

(1) They attack / marginalize the messengers:
I have read countless posts where rather than reading any of the knowledge produced by a particular scholar, they simply dig up or invent some "flaw" in regard to that person and dismiss their work based on that association. For example, Thomas Paine, an American founding father, who was intimately aware of the Solar Nature of Jesus Christ and the fraud of Christianity, wrote about true Christian origins during his life. However, from the biased debunkers point of view, he was just a "Freemason" and therefore he must have some "Anti-Christian" bias and cannot be taken seriously. This is absurd. From another angle, people will marginalize certain scholars as "fringe" due to the fact that their information isn't "well known" and therefore not to be taken seriously. Little do they understand that the most important discoveries of our time always come from the minority. Historically, the majorities belief's have almost always been proven to be wrong over time.

(2) They do no real research:
Based on what I have seen, 95% of all "debunkers" who claim the information in Part 1 is unfounded have never opened anything other than the Bible and an Encyclopedia. 10,000 yrs of religious history is not going to be represented in any Encyclopedia beyond the most superficial assessments. (For instance, Horus had many permutations during the thousands of years he was portrayed, as opposed to the singular definitions one would find in an Encyclopedia) The other 5% have blindly read Establishment, Apologist literature on the Internet and nothing more. I have yet to be contacted by a single person who has, for example, read the total works of Egyptologist Gerald Massey or Egyptologist E. A. Wallis Budge on the subject and can argue any specific point. It must be understood, for example, that in regards to the Egyptian religion specifically, it wasn't until the late 1700s that the hieroglyphics where correctly interpreted to a high degree. This is important because for many centuries prior, this information was lost.

(3) They blindly ask "Where are the 'Primary Sources'?"
or ancient original texts. These individuals declare that 'If we cannot see it in the original texts, then it cannot be known as true'. Well, even though we do have many of the original texts from the Egyptian religion, many other religions have no available primary sources, and the information comes down through analysis of traditions that each religion practiced, as recorded by historians. The idea that the "original" must be available in order to prove truth is absurd and a double standard. Where are the original manuscripts of the Bible? And why are just four gospels used when it is well known that many dozens existed? Which does one believe? And what are the "primary sources" upon which the Bible stories were created? Who actually wrote them? Why isn't there any other historical documentation or supporting evidence? Is the whole species supposed to just believe one single book without any critical analysis or confirming evidence?
The bottom line is that analysis of religious ideas is not confined to what is "on paper" as all religions are slowly evolving structures where 'Tradition' is just as important as 'Scripture'. Many early religions did not have official texts but communicated their beliefs through traditional practice. The historians' documentation that account for these practices are all we have in certain instances. This should not be dismissed and should rather be taken in with everything else to reach a logical, cumulative understanding. Collectively, the primary sources that are available, coupled with the historian documentation, present an overwhelming amount of evidence to support the argument that Judaism, Islam and Christianity specifically, are manifestations of a gross misinterpretation of prior mythology. This mythology is rooted in the Solar and Stellar cults of the ancient world.

(4) They projected their own subjective interpretation of a piece of information by using "semantic manipulation". Rather than making an objective assessment about presented information in context, situations are narrowly defined and adapted to the debunkers cause by redefining the terms by which the meaning is extrapolated. This is classic religion. Seeing things that are not there, or only that which fits the dogmatic belief system, is a staple of the interpretive mess, self projecting "believers" maintain.

Anyone who questions any part of Part 1 should first go through the Interactive Transcript (http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/transcript.htm) and then begin reading the sources. I also highly recommend Acharya's Companion Guide (http://www.stellarhousepublishing.com/zeitgeist.html) which elaborates on the Egyptian aspects more thoroughly. She has also produced
a Video Response (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_9ZyddjaM4).

Maybe this little bit should be posted amongst all the debunker forums so that they can adequately respond. :lmao:

elirien

10-12-2008, 11:21 PM

I feel quite blessed by your informed skepticism, Elirien. It will only make the truth more clear for everyone. It is especially appreciated because of the heat you have to take from those who are still unsure of their own truth, and therefore attempt to bully you into believing (is this not what all religions do?).

Having said that, have you read this statement from the zeitgeist movie site?

Maybe this little bit should be posted amongst all the debunker forums so that they can adequately respond. :lmao:

Thank you for your kind words Reveling John. Believe me, I'm just trying to further the debate. I mostly can't get bothered with posts that don't add anything to the debate. Although it sometimes saddens me to see the type of posts that you pointed out. Loved your opinion on religious behavior by the way :)

I've read that section of their site. I was quite 'enchanted' during the times when I first watched Zeitgeist and that was the time when I read that section.

On that:

- -This is just my opinion- The style in which the q&a is written is awful. I mean it just smells ego and non-debatability. What are these words? They blindly ask "Where are the 'Primary Sources'?". Let's move on.

- Well we had this very good debate with TranceAM about Thomas Paine right here on this forum: http://www.projectavalon.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1700&page=2

- I'm not sure about Massey. One of his books was thrown before me as 'evidence' but I didn't have time to read what this individual wrote. I could use some input on this one since the refutal people have quite the books on this subject (which are non-biblical and some are written by pagan-roman historians). I will check his stuff later on. His wikipedia page doesn't look promising but let's be unbiased.

By the way I found this site (which I had the time to only read briefly). Very interesting stuff on this very subject:

http://www.conspiracyscience.com/articles/zeitgeist/part-one

Take care. Will look into this tomorrow. It's too late for research :)

Morgan

10-13-2008, 04:36 AM

yeah, i lost some respect for alex jones too...i don;t think he quite got the whole concept of zeitgeist addendum and project venus. he made points referring that the elitists do the same thing then control the monetary rewards...what he doesn't get is that project venus is suggesting a NON-monetary system. so alex is assuming that someone at the very top will reap all the rewards.

alex just doesn't get it.

I just watched Addendum tonight (finally) after having read/heard many reviews, including the first part of this Alex Jones review that you refer to from another poster. I have to agree with what you say. I saw the film, and didn't see the same problems Alex saw. I think it's hard to envision a world operating totally different to how this current one works, so we apply some of our current rules to the new world and find holes. We must remember, the same rules don't apply once you change the game.

stresswon

10-13-2008, 07:44 PM

franciejones

10-13-2008, 08:03 PM

I just watched it. It IS A MUST SEE. Love the Venus Project as well.

elirien

10-14-2008, 11:33 AM

googleboy

10-14-2008, 12:49 PM

I found one more very very interesting article on Zeitgeist Addendum which explains the connections between the Venus project, the film, the theosophical society, the U.N., the N.W.O. and what is there to come again written by Chris White. I'll be back with the article.

or this one:

Venus is synonymous with the old Testament name Lucifer.

and here is a good read :)

The new Zeitgeist film features and is seemingly dedicated to a man named Jacque Fresco. He is the man behind the Venus Project. It’s been my belief for a while now that Peter Joesph and most of those behind ZG are Mystery School Initiates and more specifically Theosophists.

Now, what does this have to do with the cybernetic/mystical symbol above? Please reread my initial post and then read the following taken from a PDF file on the Venus Project’s home page enitled, Imagining the Cybernetic City: The Venus Project.

Having identified today’s problems as technical in nature it is not surprising that Fresco foresees a cybernated society where as ‘AI develops, machines will be assigned the tasks of complex decision-making in industrial, military and governmental affairs … This would not imply a take-over by machines’ (Ibidem 56).9

It won’t be a take-over because, as it is already argued – at various degrees of alarm and/or approval – within contemporary post-humanist discourse, ‘the division between living bodies and technology is increasingly difficult to maintain’ and ‘we are well on our way to becoming machinic’ (Armitage 1999, 2)10. In other words, we will become machine ourselves, our salvation as a species resides in the loss of our humanity as we know it: ‘When biological technology becomes further advanced, human beings as we know them, will become a modified species. If we as human beings fail to include the possibility of this development in our overall, social evolution we will witness the decline of our
species’ (Fresco 2002, 141).

Besides the obvious, that this type of communal living is based completely on socialism… ask yourself about the timing of this film with the economic turmoil of the hour. Ask yourself why PT1 of ZG attacking Christianity is exactly the same thing that Bill Cooper exposed as the teachings of the Mystery Schools before he was killed.

According to Alice Bailey’s The Externalization of the Hierarchy, “The new world order must be appropriate to a world which has passed through a destructive crisis and to a humanity which is badly
shattered by the experience.
”
The new world order must lay the foundation for a future world order which will be possible only after a time of recovery, of reconstruction, and of rebuilding.”

Don’t believe that everyone exposing the NWO is fighting on the right side of things. The NWO we’ve had revealed to us is the scapegoat for the coming NWO which will be billed as the kingdom of God.

Zeitgeist is all part of the global shift in consciousness that the Theosophists have been calling for, for well over a century. Lots of truth, but just enough BS to indoctrinate you into their train of thought.

There’s much more to Fresco than just a man that hates commercialism… then again, he charges a hundred bucks for a photo of one of his egg carton like homes, or space ages robo-builders.

Looks to me this “thing” shows a link between cybernetics and occultism that shouldn’t be overlooked. Especially when the core of Theosophy teaches that through science and technology the god of this world will be able to manifest. Their god, is named for Venus… and his name is Lucifer.

be well
GB

*****

elirien

10-14-2008, 01:29 PM

or this one:

Venus is synonymous with the old Testament name Lucifer.

and here is a good read :)

The new Zeitgeist film features and is seemingly dedicated to a man named Jacque Fresco. He is the man behind the Venus Project. It’s been my belief for a while now that Peter Joesph and most of those behind ZG are Mystery School Initiates and more specifically Theosophists.

Now, what does this have to do with the cybernetic/mystical symbol above? Please reread my initial post and then read the following taken from a PDF file on the Venus Project’s home page enitled, Imagining the Cybernetic City: The Venus Project.

Having identified today’s problems as technical in nature it is not surprising that Fresco foresees a cybernated society where as ‘AI develops, machines will be assigned the tasks of complex decision-making in industrial, military and governmental affairs … This would not imply a take-over by machines’ (Ibidem 56).9

It won’t be a take-over because, as it is already argued – at various degrees of alarm and/or approval – within contemporary post-humanist discourse, ‘the division between living bodies and technology is increasingly difficult to maintain’ and ‘we are well on our way to becoming machinic’ (Armitage 1999, 2)10. In other words, we will become machine ourselves, our salvation as a species resides in the loss of our humanity as we know it: ‘When biological technology becomes further advanced, human beings as we know them, will become a modified species. If we as human beings fail to include the possibility of this development in our overall, social evolution we will witness the decline of our
species’ (Fresco 2002, 141).

Besides the obvious, that this type of communal living is based completely on socialism… ask yourself about the timing of this film with the economic turmoil of the hour. Ask yourself why PT1 of ZG attacking Christianity is exactly the same thing that Bill Cooper exposed as the teachings of the Mystery Schools before he was killed.

According to Alice Bailey’s The Externalization of the Hierarchy, “The new world order must be appropriate to a world which has passed through a destructive crisis and to a humanity which is badly
shattered by the experience.
”
The new world order must lay the foundation for a future world order which will be possible only after a time of recovery, of reconstruction, and of rebuilding.”

Don’t believe that everyone exposing the NWO is fighting on the right side of things. The NWO we’ve had revealed to us is the scapegoat for the coming NWO which will be billed as the kingdom of God.

Zeitgeist is all part of the global shift in consciousness that the Theosophists have been calling for, for well over a century. Lots of truth, but just enough BS to indoctrinate you into their train of thought.

There’s much more to Fresco than just a man that hates commercialism… then again, he charges a hundred bucks for a photo of one of his egg carton like homes, or space ages robo-builders.

Looks to me this “thing” shows a link between cybernetics and occultism that shouldn’t be overlooked. Especially when the core of Theosophy teaches that through science and technology the god of this world will be able to manifest. Their god, is named for Venus… and his name is Lucifer.

be well
GB

*****

Beautiful :)

Here you go guys. http://conspiracyclothes.com/nowheretorun/ra/movie/zeitgeist_2review.wmv

Please watch this 14 minute video about Zeitgeist addendum if you liked the film. It gets a little deeper then what googleboy has written (which is very good imho). Thank you googleboy.

addendum :P : This is also a very interesting video about Zeitgeist http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPXc1QcmYDY

googleboy

10-14-2008, 01:42 PM

Beautiful :)

It gets a little deeper then what googleboy has written (which is very good imho). Thank you googleboy.

it was just copy - paste work :))
(someones else view that I liked...)

but thanks anyway :thumb_yello:

be well
GB

***

edit: typo

Southsea

10-15-2008, 03:42 AM

elirien

10-15-2008, 11:13 AM

A few hours ago I heard that Alex Jones is going to try and get the producer of Addendum on to his show to discuss the points raised by Alex, once he's satisfied himself about where they're coming from with it. I think AJ is just being protective, like any shepherd worth his salt.

Just my thoughts

I think that is a good idea to question the films motives though. Who better to answer then the producer/director/.. ? What do you think Alex is protecting?

anonypony

10-19-2008, 11:26 AM

For those who have already seen Zeitgeist Addendum and are interested to know more about the world financial system and how it came to be, I recomend 'The money Masters'.

It is long and detailed documentary, but as I said if you are interested to know more, it is well worth watching. It is very well documented throuout and although it seems it was produced in the mid nineties, it is so relevant now!!!

The money masters can be viewed from here http://lawparadox.com/ (http://lawparadox.com/) top of the page

The more people understand how it really works, the better it is for us all!

anonypony

10-19-2008, 11:39 AM

Last week a friend send me the 'Commons committee invites 'viewers' to send in questions' news item (see below). She wrote: "I reckon you might have some good questions for them"

I wrote back saying:

I will ask a succession of questions seeking short factual answers:

Q: Who does the British gov borrow the money from?

Q: Who owns the bank of England, the federal reserve, all other central and world banks including the IMF?

Q: Who issue the money the British gov borrows?

Q: Since most of world governments, their services and the assets of most people of this earth, are based on borrowed funds, who really owns the world?

Should be interesting.... If at all allowed...

Commons committee invites 'viewers' to send in questions

One of the privileges of being a member of a Commons select committee is that you get to interrogate ministers and other powerful figures. But now it seems that the Treasury select committee is contracting part of that job out to members of the public.

It's just sent out a press release saying that it's inviting members
of the public to submit questions to be put to Alistair Darling,
Mervyn King and Adair Turner at a subsequent hearing. I'm sure it
won't be quite the same as a radio phone-in – "Clive from Maidenhead
wants to know what you're doing about the inter-bank lending rate" –
but that seems to be the direction in which they're heading.

As far as I know, this is a first for a select committee. John McFall,
the chairman, explains why he's doing it in the press notice (which
should be on the committee's website soon).

Taxpayers are naturally very concerned about the scale of this
investment. The committee hopes that by providing people with the
chance to have us put their questions to those in charge, we can
provide a constructive way of engaging the public on a matter of such
deep concern to the whole country.

TranceAm

10-19-2008, 05:13 PM

What a wonderful movie.

They didn't rework ZG 1. And most facts INCLUDING the reuse of the meme about resurrection by Jesus still stand. (Why be original, if it worked before?)

The money system.... What can one say, but "Bankers, something not to bank on!"

The Future, hopeful, but dare we make THAT change... And what are we going to do with people, that are like ticks embedded in the current system, and won't come out voluntairy, or give up their power voluntairy.. One would almost say or claim that that is why 911 happened was set of as justification to "prevent" a system change from happening.

Funny that ZG 2 mentioned something I stated not to long ago to Magii in another thread about money and products he made.

OK, when do we start working towards this world.. And how to initiate the first steps?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AyqfEo7FMeo

http://www.totse.com/en/ego/literary_genius/162642.html

elirien

10-20-2008, 11:47 AM

What a wonderful movie.

They didn't rework ZG 1. And most facts INCLUDING the reuse of the meme about resurrection by Jesus still stand. (Why be original, if it worked before?)

Interesting isn't it? Those questions are still unanswered and undermine imho the whole theory Peter puts out. Shouldn't that be addressed first for the case of reliability or credibility?

The money system.... What can one say, but "Bankers, something not to bank on!"

The Future, hopeful, but dare we make THAT change... And what are we going to do with people, that are like ticks embedded in the current system, and won't come out voluntairy, or give up their power voluntairy.. One would almost say or claim that that is why 911 happened was set of as justification to "prevent" a system change from happening.

Funny that ZG 2 mentioned something I stated not to long ago to Magii in another thread about money and products he made.

OK, when do we start working towards this world.. And how to initiate the first steps?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AyqfEo7FMeo

http://www.totse.com/en/ego/literary_genius/162642.html

Even with the venus project there is this main problem: How could anyone expect to 'convert' the people that scammed the masses with illusionary money (and this is on a world scale because of the IMF and world bank) and systems to suck them dry? I mean the main problem was not the guy who earned a buck working as a waiter anyway. The problem were the people that created centralized banking or banking on itself that prophecied money out of nothing which means energy or resources out of nothing (so that venusian people can understand it as well :D just joking).

TranceAm

10-20-2008, 08:57 PM

Interesting isn't it? Those questions are still unanswered and undermine imho the whole theory Peter puts out. Shouldn't that be addressed first for the case of reliability or credibility?

Hello my friend.
Well, isn't the NOT adressing them, an answer by itself, and now the credibitly and reliability part is on the other side... They claim ressurection so they prove.... 1st that Christ did it, and did it first. (The "Original" so to speak.)
And extraordinary claims demand extraordinary proof beyond the 5th.

Even with the venus project there is this main problem: How could anyone expect to 'convert' the people that scammed the masses with illusionary money (and this is on a world scale because of the IMF and world bank) and systems to suck them dry? I mean the main problem was not the guy who earned a buck working as a waiter anyway. The problem were the people that created centralized banking or banking on itself that prophecied money out of nothing which means energy or resources out of nothing (so that venusian people can understand it as well :D just joking).

Just my opinion, but isn't the first step explaining to ALL people how that money system works.. And I think we are in the middle of that phase... And by giving all the people the information connected to the problem, we might get the critical mass needed to get to the solving of that problem.

First of all: The DEBT they claim you have to them, doesn't exist. It is an illusionary chain around people's necks, that is there as long as people want to believe it is there.

Second of all, There is an honor debt to all the people Non-American that exchanged their lifetime and countries resouces for American Debt bills. That WAS the "Free Lunch".

Your thoughts?

sprocket

10-20-2008, 11:52 PM

Yes, the 'Addendum' was very good. It's sobering to think that every dollar/euro/yen/GBP etc. in existence, be they real or 'virtual', in reality hold a negative value - to clear a nation's debt would require all that have been created, (from nothing!) PLUS the accumulated interest on the principal - but since there would be none outstanding, this shortfall would have to be 'borrowed' - hence, you find yourself in a Hell of sorts!!!

Looked at another way, with every penny you earn, bill you pay, or product you buy, you are in reality an active participant in indebting your country, creating nothing, just generating more debt! :mfr_omg:

Death to all Bankers... :thumbdown:

elirien

10-21-2008, 10:13 AM

Hello my friend.
Well, isn't the NOT adressing them, an answer by itself, and now the credibitly and reliability part is on the other side... They claim ressurection so they prove.... 1st that Christ did it, and did it first. (The "Original" so to speak.)
And extraordinary claims demand extraordinary proof beyond the 5th.

Hi TranceAm, here we are again and I'm happy to be here.

Well the thing they didn't address was if all religions were solar cults in its essence. The 'debunkers' (don't like that word. Sounds like they were offering an alternative to truth), or fact checkers so to speak claim that the facts they show on Maxwell's research is bs. Not just the ressurection aspect but also if Jesus of Nazareth was real or just some concept embedded in astro-theology (which just reeks bs imho but one has to have an open mind on this matters). The claims which were false in the first film and from biased information which were unproven theories from secret society members (the secret society membership is here the un-important part imho). They didn't find any facts supporting these claims.

Just my opinion, but isn't the first step explaining to ALL people how that money system works.. And I think we are in the middle of that phase... And by giving all the people the information connected to the problem, we might get the critical mass needed to get to the solving of that problem.

First of all: The DEBT they claim you have to them, doesn't exist. It is an illusionary chain around people's necks, that is there as long as people want to believe it is there.

Second of all, There is an honor debt to all the people Non-American that exchanged their lifetime and countries resouces for American Debt bills. That WAS the "Free Lunch".

Your thoughts?

Well actually no. The first part explains how the federal banking system works not how money works. It details how what represented the people's effort and labor as a transactional medium based on gold (which makes it a resource based economy) was transformed into a system which is based on nothing and sucks the labor of the people and transfers it to a select few which is not the problem of money but how it is being used. Am I wrong in interpreting it this way?

Later on the venus project tries to throw the baby out with the bathwater by generalizing problems which are very localized on the administration of money.

Well this is how I see it. I hope you can find the holes in my story because I think I convinced myself pretty much with this. :)

cheers

sprocket

10-21-2008, 02:52 PM

.....Well actually no. The first part explains how the federal banking system works not how money works. It details how what represented the people's effort and labor as a transactional medium based on gold (which makes it a resource based economy) was transformed into a system which is based on nothing and sucks the labor of the people and transfers it to a select few which is not the problem of money but how it is being used. Am I wrong in interpreting it this way?

Later on the venus project tries to throw the baby out with the bathwater by generalizing problems which are very localized on the administration of money.

Well this is how I see it. I hope you can find the holes in my story because I think I convinced myself pretty much with this.

cheers

The notion of a monetary system's ability to enslave a nation was well known even to Lincoln, who declined offered loans (and the exorbitant interest rates they would entail) from european banks to finance the war, instead opting to create a 'real' currency instead - the Greenback! This 'problem' was further acknowledged by the european banks themselves in corrospondence where they stated that the greenback could not be tolerated and allowed to stand, as they would have no control over it...

The point of this opener is to highlight that this corrupt monetary system is very much a global issue, and not just confined to the US - afterall, this was the system of 'choice' (at least for the Bankers!) in use in Europe, long before it 'spread' to the USA. Presently, practically every major monetary system is a Fiat currency based on fractional banking - and the 'Addendum' movie does a great job in showning what a farce this system is!

And when you realise that banks worldwide are right now in the process of being "baled-out" by taxpayers - in essence, getting Central banks to generate more worthless 'money' from nothing, while passing all liabilities to the taxpayers - and ultimately, what will have changed? Just more debt created! In Chess parlance, we are being set-up for a Check-Mate! Maddening... :wall:

elirien

10-21-2008, 06:54 PM

The notion of a monetary system's ability to enslave a nation was well known even to Lincoln, who declined offered loans (and the exorbitant interest rates they would entail) from european banks to finance the war, instead opting to create a 'real' currency instead - the Greenback! This 'problem' was further acknowledged by the european banks themselves in corrospondence where they stated that the greenback could not be tolerated and allowed to stand, as they would have no control over it...

The point of this opener is to highlight that this corrupt monetary system is very much a global issue, and not just confined to the US - afterall, this was the system of 'choice' (at least for the Bankers!) in use in Europe, long before it 'spread' to the USA. Presently, practically every major monetary system is a Fiat currency based on fractional banking - and the 'Addendum' movie does a great job in showning what a farce this system is!

And when you realise that banks worldwide are right now in the process of being "baled-out" by taxpayers - in essence, getting Central banks to generate more worthless 'money' from nothing, while passing all liabilities to the taxpayers - and ultimately, what will have changed? Just more debt created! In Chess parlance, we are being set-up for a Check-Mate! Maddening... :wall:

O.k. but don't you think that the greenback is the resource based economy model? Can you see a difference?

sprocket

10-21-2008, 09:23 PM

O.k. but don't you think that the greenback is the resource based economy model? Can you see a difference?

Technically, it is "resource-based", but I prefer to go along with the Venus project's definition (or at least, my understanding of it) - ie. a currency-less society. Afterall, what changes with a gold-backed currency? Nothing imo, sure it is actually worth something - in contrast to all current fiat currencies - and therefore the current farcical situation of "monetising" away money shortages (with the inevitable de-valuation this necessitates) would not exist.

However, you are still stuck with all the greed-based problems associated with this current system - a perfect example relates to oil: despite our 'space-age technology', the internal combustion engine is largely identical in construction and performance to what was available 120 years ago, despite hugely more efficient designs being available even that long ago! This is the result of greed, pure and simple. If the greed-incentive to impede progress didn't exist, polutionless cars that ran on water would have been available a century ago...

TranceAm

10-22-2008, 01:08 AM

Hi TranceAm, here we are again and I'm happy to be here.

Well the thing they didn't address was if all religions were solar cults in its essence. The 'debunkers' (don't like that word. Sounds like they were offering an alternative to truth), or fact checkers so to speak claim that the facts they show on Maxwell's research is bs. Not just the ressurection aspect but also if Jesus of Nazareth was real or just some concept embedded in astro-theology (which just reeks bs imho but one has to have an open mind on this matters). The claims which were false in the first film and from biased information which were unproven theories from secret society members (the secret society membership is here the un-important part imho). They didn't find any facts supporting these claims.

But the point is that they don't have to. The one with the first claim proves.
The claim is that Jesus existed and did extraordinairy things.. (All fine and dandy, since it ain't mandatory anymore to believe in that..)
The strange thing that happens is that one first has to approve to this claim, before one can have a counter claim or have an alternative claim... And has to come up with proof that discounts the first claim before we even can get to the second claim, or back to the neutral situation without the now disproven first claim.. And giving the information to justify a reasonable doubt ain't enough to counter the first claim, although reasonable doubt was enough to stake the first claim...

Well actually no. The first part explains how the federal banking system works not how money works. It details how what represented the people's effort and labor as a transactional medium based on gold (which makes it a resource based economy) was transformed into a system which is based on nothing and sucks the labor of the people and transfers it to a select few which is not the problem of money but how it is being used. Am I wrong in interpreting it this way?

The way I see it, is that the real wealth of people, "life time converted to money by work", becomes a wealth expressed in paper/fiat money, that can be stolen from, by the means of devaluation or inflation of the money supply. This in contradiction to an exchange of life wealth to gold, since gold has its own value, and thus lifetime has a "hard" value....:-) and that is hard to steal from if you can't get your hands in the sock under that matress.
Am I wrong in seeing it this way, or Am I defining your point of view differently?

Later on the venus project tries to throw the baby out with the bathwater by generalizing problems which are very localized on the administration of money.

I don't know, the bigger picture does reveal that wars are created by the bankers to get countries on their knees with the loans they need for warfare.
If that wasn't the case, then the US & the WOrld would be full of libraries, and palaces thus without the need for the Venus Project. That ain't the case, although a double wide is still luxury over that war torn piece of concrete in Bagdad.

cheers

Cheers...

elirien

10-22-2008, 08:32 AM

But the point is that they don't have to. The one with the first claim proves.
The claim is that Jesus existed and did extraordinairy things.. (All fine and dandy, since it ain't mandatory anymore to believe in that..)

Wait a second. The claim by Zeitgeist is that every religion they show on there (Islam is not shown by the way) is an astro cult, which the elite and the sheople believe in as the worship of the one true god, which is bs. in the case of christianity (not catholicism by the way. That is a pantheistic cult). I don't know how much you care about slandered people in this case but I get upset if someone is called a schill or psy-ops (which Alex Jones was called before he pressed the israeli side of 9/11).

The strange thing that happens is that one first has to approve to this claim, before one can have a counter claim or have an alternative claim... And has to come up with proof that discounts the first claim before we even can get to the second claim, or back to the neutral situation without the now disproven first claim.. And giving the information to justify a reasonable doubt ain't enough to counter the first claim, although reasonable doubt was enough to stake the first claim...

What do you mean by approve? I can't approve plain unproven falsehood. Did you approve what Commander Adama over here or all the 14th October Rescue squad spread? If you mean that I should see it as a proposition then be sure that I did. Why would I discuss this if I didn't? These seem like word games rather then a debate here :)

The way I see it, is that the real wealth of people, "life time converted to money by work", becomes a wealth expressed in paper/fiat money, that can be stolen from, by the means of devaluation or inflation of the money supply. This in contradiction to an exchange of life wealth to gold, since gold has its own value, and thus lifetime has a "hard" value....:-) and that is hard to steal from if you can't get your hands in the sock under that matress.
Am I wrong in seeing it this way, or Am I defining your point of view differently?

Lifetime :D nice phrasing :D Well not different altogether but there are certain details. First of all the sweat of your brow (or other organs) doesn't necessarily exchange to fiat money. I do believe that not all money is fiat money in every country. I e-mailed our central bank over here to get an answer for the country I live in right now. Beyond that, it's exactly what I meant.

I don't know, the bigger picture does reveal that wars are created by the bankers to get countries on their knees with the loans they need for warfare.
If that wasn't the case, then the US & the WOrld would be full of libraries, and palaces thus without the need for the Venus Project. That ain't the case, although a double wide is still luxury over that war torn piece of concrete in Bagdad.

Cheers...

Well exactly my friend. Although not only are the bankers to blame but all of us who give them their support. If the Venus project was just about that then I would have no problem with it (which would be a very just cause by the way). But re-phrasing the NWO with all this "info" based on the theosophic crowd with occult visuals like that "handmade pyramid shining through the sun" is not for me.

By the way it would also be nice to hear from the "I luv Zeitgeist" crowd. Not that I am singling (spelling!?) myself out here. Let's look at it in more detail rather then a piece of entertainment (I say it every time. I luv this series soundtracks :) )

elirien

10-22-2008, 08:40 AM

Technically, it is "resource-based", but I prefer to go along with the Venus project's definition (or at least, my understanding of it) - ie. a currency-less society. Afterall, what changes with a gold-backed currency? Nothing imo, sure it is actually worth something - in contrast to all current fiat currencies - and therefore the current farcical situation of "monetising" away money shortages (with the inevitable de-valuation this necessitates) would not exist.

However, you are still stuck with all the greed-based problems associated with this current system - a perfect example relates to oil: despite our 'space-age technology', the internal combustion engine is largely identical in construction and performance to what was available 120 years ago, despite hugely more efficient designs being available even that long ago! This is the result of greed, pure and simple. If the greed-incentive to impede progress didn't exist, polutionless cars that ran on water would have been available a century ago...

Do you really think that when the white collar slave decides to rephrase his monetary system that greed would just swish away? Abolishing fiat money is just one minimal step to the moral and ethical high ground that would remember people that nothing comes from nothing.

I didn't read their book after their wondrous simplifications and demagogy in Zeitgeist addendum. I would be very glad if you could 'enlighten' me what does really change besides labels on the economy that so much resembles just any other economy model (communism, socialism or even capitalism).

Suppression of technology has nothing to do with economy model but has to do with the unmoral behavior of the central banking profession whom we know is used by corrupt, sick, occultist individuals. But that spiritual aspect is unimportant now is it? Just the corrupt behavior of Joe sixpack is the problem not bohemian grove, illuminism, luciferianism, theosophism etc. :)

sprocket

10-22-2008, 02:35 PM

Do you really think that when the white collar slave decides to rephrase his monetary system that greed would just swish away? Abolishing fiat money is just one minimal step to the moral and ethical high ground that would remember people that nothing comes from nothing.

I didn't read their book after their wondrous simplifications and demagogy in Zeitgeist addendum. I would be very glad if you could 'enlighten' me what does really change besides labels on the economy that so much resembles just any other economy model (communism, socialism or even capitalism).

Suppression of technology has nothing to do with economy model but has to do with the unmoral behavior of the central banking profession whom we know is used by corrupt, sick, occultist individuals. But that spiritual aspect is unimportant now is it? Just the corrupt behavior of Joe sixpack is the problem not bohemian grove, illuminism, luciferianism, theosophism etc. :)

It will never be the remit of white-collar workers to decide a monetary system - decisions like this have and always will be made by a tiny minority so long as tyrannical organisations such as the Illuminati are allowed to exist! Just consider the present US elections, they continually talk of freedom and choice, yet the only candidates that can even hope to stand a chance of being elected must by default have hundreds of millions of dollars in campaign funds - so by default, anyone who makes it this far, are bought and paid for, this having been decided long in advance by a select few!

Neither did I read their book and I would agree that their 'vision' as presented is indeed simplified, but considering they had 15-20 minutes, I think they did a pretty good job! And as they themselves admitted, it is far from perfect, but is a lot better than what is currently available. As for what changes it could manifest, consider what would happen if tomorrow the world governments told us that we were in imminent danger of being invaded by little green guys, and the world as a whole must prepare for this. Instantly, this inslaving monetary system would be forgotten about, with the whole world adopting a true "resource-based" existence - the farmers would feed us, their machinery and equipment needs would be met by industry, and on and on. This didn't happen during our own major wars precisely because they were orchestrated to a large extent by bankers, who were funding both sides simultaneuously! Remove this 'dead-wood' though and you would see just how well the human race as a whole can work together, while also highlighting how un-necessary a currency-based economy really is...

I'm well aware that technology suppression has nothing to do with an economic model, but it nicely highlights just one of the ugly facets of a greed-based monetary system, how technological advancement, however necessary, can be stunted or stopped althogether (as with the I.C.E) by a tiny minority of unscrupulous individuals...

TranceAm

10-22-2008, 10:59 PM

Wait a second. The claim by Zeitgeist is that every religion they show on there (Islam is not shown by the way) is an astro cult,

I thought they made a very good case of that... And since Islam acknowledges Jesus Christ as another Messiah, they acknowledge the other religions basis for existence, and get credibility back from it. (If Jesus was a Messiah, then Mohamed can be a Messiah.) I think they upped the ante a little bit, and place the bar a lot higher by adding the claim, the "last" one... No other will follow. I might be wrong, on hearsay.

What do you mean by approve?

Sorry about that, My bad, I should have written acknowledged.

Let me give an example of what I mean, and see how far you approve of it.

A person mind can (Considering believing anything but in this case say "God".) in a virgin state, when he has never heard of that meme before... Needles to say, In this world, one has to be a little child unable to understand language to be in this state.

The moment the meme is introduced in the persons mind, accompanied with the proof as surrounding us and supplied by the religions that go around (Complete sometimes with the carrot/stick approach and endless indoctrination from several sources..),
The person can do 2 things, Either accept it, or reject it.
Accepting it means becoming in a believer. (And Xerox the meme.)
Rejecting it means changing from virgin to an unbeliever...

However, in case unbelieving or later believing something different, now in every discussion case this meme, the person has to prove that the meme is untrue before putting forward his own proof for his own case... He has to acknowledge the meme as something that can be disproved, while it has never been proven to start with...

These seem like word games rather then a debate here :)

Word games? Nono, it is World Games. And according to religions that go around: Winner takes all. :-)

Again a pleasure.

P.S Commander Adama? Lorne Greene or Edward James Olmos?
http://www.battlestargalactica.com/index.htm

Reveling John

10-23-2008, 05:23 AM

Hi TranceAm, here we are again and I'm happy to be here.

The first part explains how the federal banking system works not how money works. It details how what represented the people's effort and labor as a transactional medium based on gold (which makes it a resource based economy) was transformed into a system which is based on nothing and sucks the labor of the people and transfers it to a select few which is not the problem of money but how it is being used. Am I wrong in interpreting it this way?
cheers

First off, this is a really interesting thread and I thank everyone for submitting their unique arguments.

Now, as far as the quote above is concerned, let me state that:

GOLD IS NOT A RESOURCE. Gold is a commodity that we have historically used as a measure of wealth, but a currency system backed by gold is NOT resourced-based because GOLD IS NOT A RESOURCE.

Neither is silver, platinum, diamonds, rubies, jewels..... the wealth that these commodities represent is not resource-based. The idea of these things measuring wealth is a complete ABSTRACTION.

For more on that line of thought, check out Alan Watts (http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=ABBD8B87DD121906&playnext=1), who I've mentioned on this forum before.

And if you are wondering what a commodity is, here is wikipedia to the rescue:

A commodity is anything for which there is demand, but which is supplied without qualitative differentiation across a market. In other words, copper is copper. Rice is rice. Stereos, on the other hand, have many levels of quality. And, the better a stereo is, the more it will cost. The price of copper is universal, and fluctuates daily based on global supply and demand..

Also, socialism, as you can conclude for yourself by studying the economies of western/northern Europe gives the government control of capital, not resources. Here's another important fact: CAPITAL IS NOT A RESOURCE. Thus socialism (and communism for that matter) is not a resourced-based economy.

Once again wikipedia provides us with an definition of capital:

In economics, capital or capital goods or real capital refers to items of extensive value. The term can also be applied to the amount of wealth a person controls or is capable of controlling.

Capital goods may be acquired with money or financial capital. In finance and accounting, capital generally refers to financial wealth, especially that used to start or maintain a business, sometimes referred to as Cash flow.

To some of the other points: When people dispute the credibility of Zeitgeist (1st or 2nd) they NEVER, NOT ONCE mention what they would do if they interpretted the movies and their messages as literal communications. I don't care if you think this religioun or that religioun are real. I don't care if you think the Venus project is a veil for socialism or the new world order.

What are you going to DO about the social/economic/humanitarian crisis that we face?
What ACTION have you decided upon, if any?

Let's talk about that.

By the way, instead of attacking Jaque Fresco on the basis of his appearance in Zeitgeist Addendum, why not respond to his actual writings? There is plenty to be found on the Venus Project website (http://www.thevenusproject.com/intro_main/essay.htm), from which this excerpt has been pulled:

The monetary system has been a useful, but interim tool, it came into being as a means of placing a value on scarce objects and labor. The monetary system of course replaced the barter system, which involved direct trading of objects and labor. However, just as there was no universal-bartering standard in the past, there is no global monetary system today. Individuals and groups, now as in the past, however, still need to exchange objects and labor for today’s goods and services. The unequal distribution of skills, resources and materials throughout the world necessitates global trade.

Until the last few decades, the monetary system functioned to a degree. The global population of three billion was not over consuming world resources and energy, global warming was not evident, and air and water pollution were only recognized by a relative few. The start of the 21st century however finds global population at an exponentially rising six billion, with resources and energy supplies dwindling, global warming a reality, and pollution evident worldwide. Planet earth is in crises and the majority of world population cannot meet their basic needs because people do not have the means to purchase increasingly expensive resources. Money is now the determinant of people’s standard of living rather than the availability of resources.

The monetary system is now an impediment to survival rather than a means of facilitating individual existence and growth. This imaginary tool has outlived its usefulness. The limitations on earth’s population now caused by the monetary construct can be phased out. It is not money that people need but the access to goods and services. Since humanity requires resources to exist, the replacement system should provide those resources directly to people without the impediment of financial and political interest for their private gain at the expense of the lives and livelihood of the populous. The replacement system is therefor logically a resource-based economy. This global resource based economy would be gradually phased in while the monetary system is phased out.

All of the world's economic systems - socialism, communism, fascism, and even the vaunted free enterprise capitalist system - perpetuate social stratification, elitism, nationalism and racism, primarily based on economic disparity. As long as a social system uses money or barter, people and nations will seek to maintain positions of differential advantage. If they cannot do so by means of commerce they will resort to military intervention.

War represents the supreme failure of nations to resolve their differences. From a strictly pragmatic standpoint it is the most inefficient waste of lives and resources ever conceived by any creature on the planet. This crude and violent way of attempting to resolve international differences has taken on even more ominous overtones with the advent of elaborate computerized thermonuclear delivery systems, deadly diseases and gases, and the threat of sabotage of a nation's computer networks. Despite the desire of nations to achieve peace, they usually lack the knowledge of how to arrive at peaceful solutions.

War is not the only form of violence in the developed and underdeveloped countries that is superimposed upon the populace by inadequate social arrangements. There is also hunger, poverty, and scarcity. As long as there is the use of money, the creation of debt, and economic insecurity these conditions will perpetuate crime, lawlessness, and resentment. Paper proclamations and treaties do not alter conditions of scarcity and insecurity. And nationalism only tends to help propagate the separation of nations and the world's people.

Even the signing of a peace treaty cannot avoid another war if the underlying causes are not addressed. The unworkable aspects of international law tend to freeze things as they are. All of the nations that have conquered land all over the world by force and violence would still retain their positions of territorial and resource advantage. Whether we realize it or not, such agreements only serve as temporary suspensions to conflict.

Attempting to find solutions to the monumental problems within our present society will only serve as temporary patchwork, prolonging an obsolete system.

In this world of constant change it is no longer a question of whether we choose to make the necessary changes; it is now mandatory that we take on this challenge and adopt these new requirements or face the inevitable decay of our present social and economic institution.

This is the dilemma we must face head-on, and the solutions we arrive at must fit the circumstances of the "real-world." There appears to be no other way than to update our outlook and create a newer direction by relegating the old values to past civilizations. Unfortunately, this may not be accomplished prior to the point of no return in the global economy.

RESOURCE-BASED ECONOMY

Presented here is a straightforward approach to the redesign of a culture, in which the age-old inadequacies of war, poverty, hunger, debt, and unnecessary human suffering are viewed not only as avoidable, but totally unacceptable. This new social design works towards eliminating the underlying causes that are responsible for many of our problems. But, as stated previously, they cannot be eliminated within the framework of the present monetary and political establishment. Human behavior is subject to the same laws that govern all other physical phenomena. Our customs, behaviors, and values are byproducts of our culture. No one is born with greed, prejudice, bigotry and hatred - they are learned. If the environment is unaltered similar problems will reoccur.

These aspirations cannot be accomplished in a monetary based society of waste and human exploitation. With its planned obsolescence, neglect of the environment, outrageous military expenditures and the outworn methods of attempting to solve problems through the enactment of laws, these methods are bound to fail. Furthermore the belief that advanced technologies would lead to an improvement in the quality of life for most people is not the case in a monetary system. More and more companies are adopting the tremendous benefits of automation, resulting in increased production with fewer employees.

Corporations’ short-term concern with profit will ultimately result in the demise of the world monetary based economies. If the monetary system continues to operate, we will be faced with the condition of more technological unemployment, today referred to as downsizing. From 1990 to 1995, companies dismissed a staggering 17.1 million employees, many of these due to automation. Automation will continue to replace people well into the foreseeable future, resulting in the lack of purchasing power for these displaced workers. Despite expanding global markets, the human cost in terms of displaced workers and a disenfranchised populous, will inevitably bring about massive and unmanageable social problems.

During the 1930's, at the height of the Great Depression, the Roosevelt administration enacted new social legislation designed to minimize revolutionary tendencies and to address the problems of unemployment. Jobs were provided through the Works Progress Administration, Civilian Conservation Corps, National Recovery Act, transient camps, and Federal Arts projects. Ultimately, however, World War II pulled the U.S. out of that worldwide depression. If we permit current conditions to take their natural course, we will soon be faced with another international recession of potentially greater magnitude.

At the time of this depression the US had only 600 first class fighting aircraft at the beginning of World War II, we rapidly increased production to 90,000 planes per year. Did we have enough money to pay for the required implements of war? The answer is no. Neither did we have enough gold. But, we did have more than enough resources. It was the available resources and personnel that enabled the U. S. to achieve the production and efficiency required to win the war. Unfortunately, such an all-out effort is only considered in times of war or disaster.

We live in a culture that seems to work collectively only in response to a crisis. Only in times of war do we call upon and assemble interdisciplinary teams to meet a threat from human aggression. Only in times of national emergency do we do the same to resolve a natural or man-made threat. Rarely, if ever, do we employ a concerted effort to help find workable solutions to social problems. If we apply the same efforts of scientific mobilization toward social betterment as we do during a war or disaster, large-scale results could be achieved in a relatively short time.

The Earth is still abundant with resources. Today our practice of rationing resources through monetary methods is irrelevant and counter-productive to the well-being of people. Today’s society has access to highly advanced technologies and can easily provide more than enough for a very high standard of living for all the earth’s people. This is possible through the implementation of a resource-based economy.

Simply stated, a resource-based economy utilizes existing resources rather than money, and provides an equitable method of distribution in the most humane and efficient manner for the entire population. It is a system in which all natural, man-made, machine-made, and synthetic resources would be available without the use of money, credits, barter, or any other form of symbolic exchange. A resource-based economy would utilize existing resources from the land and sea, and the means of production, such as physical equipment and industrial plants, to enhance the lives of the total population. In an economy based on resources rather than money, we could easily produce all of the necessities of life and provide a high standard of living for all.

To further clarify the concept of a resource based economy consider this example: A group of people is stranded on an island with enormous purchasing power including gold, silver and diamonds. All this wealth would be irrelevant to their survival if the island had few resources such as food, clean air, and water. Only when population exceeds the productive capacity of the land do problems such as greed, crime, and violence emerge. On the other hand, if people were stranded on an island that was abundant with natural resources producing more than the necessities for survival, then a monetary system would be irrelevant. It is only when resources are scarce that money can be used to control their distribution. One could not, for example, sell the air we breathe, the sand on the beach, or the salt water in the ocean to someone else on the island who has equal access to all these things. In a resource-based economy all of the world's resources would be held as the common heritage of all of the earth’s people, thus eventually outgrowing the need for the artificial boundaries that separate people – this is the unifying imperative.

We must emphasize here that this approach to global governance has nothing whatever in common with the present aims of a corporate elite to form a world government with themselves and large corporations in control, and the vast majority of the world's population subservient to them. Globalization in a resource-based economy empowers each and every person on the planet to be the very best they can be, not to live in abject subjugation to a corporate governing body.

All social systems, regardless of political philosophy, religious beliefs, or social customs, ultimately depend upon natural resources, e.g. clean air and water, arable land, and the necessary technology and personnel to maintain a high standard of living. This can be accomplished through the intelligent and humane application of science and technology. The real wealth of any nation lies in its developed and potential resources and the people who are working toward the elimination of scarcity and the development of a more humane way of life. A resource-based economy would use technology to overcome scarce resources by utilizing renewable sources of energy; computerizing and automating manufacturing, inventory and distribution; designing safe, energy-efficient cities; providing universal health care and relevant education; and most of all, by generating a new incentive system based on human and environmental concern.

Unfortunately, today science and technology have been diverted from these ends for reasons of self-interest and monetary gain through the conscious withdrawal of efficiency, or through planned obsolescence. For example, it is an ironic state of affairs when the U. S. Department of Agriculture, whose function is to conduct research into ways of achieving higher crop yields per acre, pays farmers not to produce at full capacity while many people go hungry. Another example is the choice of some companies to illegally dump solid waste into oceans and rivers to save money, when more ecologically sound disposal methods are available. A third example is the failure of some industries to install electrostatic precipitators in their factories’ smokestacks to prevent particulate matter from being released into the atmosphere, even though the technology has been available for over 75 years. The monetary system does not always apply known methods that would best serve people and the environment.

In a resource-based economy, the human aspect would be of prime concern, and technology would be subordinate to this. This would result in a considerable increase in leisure time. In an economy in which production is accomplished primarily by machines, and products and services are available to all, the concepts of "work" and "earning a living" would become irrelevant. But if the human consequences of automation are unresolved, as they are today, then it renders all the advances of science and technology of much less significance.

The utilization of today’s high speed and large capacity computer systems, otherwise known as the "Information Superhighway" or Internet, could assist us in defining the variables and parameters required for the operation of a resource-based economy that conforms to environmental needs. Over-exploitation of resources would be unnecessary and surpassed.

Many people believe that there is too much technology in the world today, and that technology is the major cause of our environmental pollution. This is not the case. Rather, it is the abuse and misuse of technology that should be our major concern. In very simple terms, a hammer can be used to construct a building, or to kill another person. It is not the hammer that is the issue, but how it is used.

Cybernation, or the application of computers and automation to the social system, could be regarded as an emancipation proclamation for humankind if used humanely and intelligently. Its thorough application could eventually enable people to have the highest conceivable standard of living with practically no labor. It could free people for the first time in human history from a highly structured and outwardly imposed routine of repetitive and mundane activity. It could enable one to return to the Greek concept of leisure, where slaves did most of the work and men had time to cultivate their minds. The essential difference is that in the future, each of us will command more than a million slaves - but they will be mechanical and electrical slaves, not fellow human beings. This will end forever the degrading exploitation of any human being by another so that he or she lives an abundant, productive, and less stressful life. Perhaps the greatest aid in enhancing the survival of the human race is the introduction of cybernation, the electronic computer, and artificial intelligence, which may very well save the human race from its own inadequacies.

A resource-based economy calls for the redesign of our cities, transportation systems, and industrial plants so that they are energy efficient, clean, and conveniently provide the needs of all people both materially and spiritually. These new cybernated cities would have their electrical sensors' autonomic nervous system extended into all areas of the social complex. Their function would be to coordinate a balance between production and distribution and to operate a balance-load economy. Decisions would be arrived at on the basis of feedback from the environment. Despite today’s mania for national security, and subsequent intrusions into everyone’s personal affairs, in a world-wide resource-based economy where no one need take from another, it will be considered socially offensive and counterproductive for machines to monitor the activities of individuals. In fact, such intrusion would serve no useful purpose.

To further understand the operation of cybernation in the city system, for example, in the agricultural belt the electronic probes imbedded in the soil would automatically keep a constant inventory of the water table, soil conditions, nutrients, etc. and act appropriately without the need for human intervention. This method of industrial electronic feedback could be applied to the entire management of a global economy.

All raw materials used to manufacture products can be transported directly to the manufacturing facilities by automated transportation "sequences" such as ships, monorails, trains, pipelines, and pneumatic tubes, and the like. All transportation systems are fully utilized in both directions. There would be no empty trucks, trains, or transport units on return trips. There would be no freight trains stored in yards, awaiting a business cycle for their use. An automated inventory system would be connected to both the distribution centers and the manufacturing facilities, thus coordinating production to meet demand and providing a constant evaluation of preferences and consumption statistics. In this way a balanced-load economy can be assured and shortages, over-runs, and waste could be eliminated.

The method for the distribution of goods and services in a resource-based economy without the use of money or tokens could be accomplished through the establishment of distribution centers. These distribution centers would be similar to a public library or an exposition, where the advantages of new products can be explained and demonstrated. For example, if one were to visit Yellowstone National Park, one could check out a still or video camera on-site, use the camera, and if they do not want to keep it, return it to another readily accessible distribution center or drop-off point, thus eliminating the individual’s need to store and maintain the equipment.

In addition to computerized centers, which would be located throughout the various communities, there would be 3-D, flat-screen televised imaging capabilities right in the convenience of one's own home. If an item is desired, an order would be placed, and the item could be automatically delivered directly to a person's place of residence.

With the infusion of a resource-based, world economy and an all-out effort to develop new, clean, renewable sources of energy, (such as geothermal, controlled fusion, solar heat concentrators, photovoltaics, wind, wave, tidal power, and fuel from the oceans), we will eventually be able to have energy in unlimited quantity that could serve civilization for thousands of years.

To better understand the meaning of a resource-based economy consider this: If all the money in the world were to suddenly disappear, as long as topsoil, factories, and other resources were left intact, we could build anything we chose to build and fulfill any human need. It is not money that people need, but rather it is freedom of access to most of their necessities without ever having to appeal to a government bureaucracy or any other agency. In a resource-based economy money would become irrelevant. All that would be required are the resources, manufacturing, and distribution of the products....

-From The Future and Beyond (http://www.thevenusproject.com/intro_main/essay.htm) by Jacque Fresco

While we are all furiously researching, which I believe most people on this site are doing in earnest, let's try to remember that there is a point to all of this homework. I can't tell you what the point is for you, but I know that for myself, I want to determine the most appropriate action to take for the betterment of my life and the life of everyone on this planet. I suppose yall have to figure out your own individual objectives and when you do find it, make sure that your intellectual efforts are being properly directed toward that goal.

Great Love,
John

elirien

10-23-2008, 10:56 AM

As for what changes it could manifest, consider what would happen if tomorrow the world governments told us that we were in imminent danger of being invaded by little green guys, and the world as a whole must prepare for this. Instantly, this inslaving monetary system would be forgotten about, with the whole world adopting a true "resource-based" existence - the farmers would feed us, their machinery and equipment needs would be met by industry, and on and on. This didn't happen during our own major wars precisely because they were orchestrated to a large extent by bankers, who were funding both sides simultaneuously! Remove this 'dead-wood' though and you would see just how well the human race as a whole can work together, while also highlighting how un-necessary a currency-based economy really is...

Besides the quote above I agree with you totally. What I didn't like on your approach is again the same thing I mentioned before. Yes the bankers are scum but that's it. There is nothing more that would change if you continue with a centralized system. Those war scenarios where the people work their ass off for resources happened every time. Not only with wars but also natural disasters like the earthquakes in my country and other various occasions in other countries. If you take the stealing element out of the system it will work. Of course there are other non-beneficial details like representative democracy but these can be altered for a better existence and choice in government.

I'm well aware that technology suppression has nothing to do with an economic model, but it nicely highlights just one of the ugly facets of a greed-based monetary system, how technological advancement, however necessary, can be stunted or stopped althogether (as with the I.C.E) by a tiny minority of unscrupulous individuals...

That I agree upon too. You are very right.

elirien

10-23-2008, 11:35 AM

I thought they made a very good case of that... And since Islam acknowledges Jesus Christ as another Messiah, they acknowledge the other religions basis for existence, and get credibility back from it. (If Jesus was a Messiah, then Mohamed can be a Messiah.) I think they upped the ante a little bit, and place the bar a lot higher by adding the claim, the "last" one... No other will follow. I might be wrong, on hearsay.

Yup you are right as far as I know (please correct us if we write bs here). But if Jesus is not to proven a myth then I don't think that would work either. His station as a prophet is of course another issue. I won't comment on that one since I don't think that I have read enough Torah, Bible and Koran to detail this.

Sorry about that, My bad, I should have written acknowledged.

Let me give an example of what I mean, and see how far you approve of it.

A person mind can (Considering believing anything but in this case say "God".) in a virgin state, when he has never heard of that meme before... Needles to say, In this world, one has to be a little child unable to understand language to be in this state.

The moment the meme is introduced in the persons mind, accompanied with the proof as surrounding us and supplied by the religions that go around (Complete sometimes with the carrot/stick approach and endless indoctrination from several sources..),
The person can do 2 things, Either accept it, or reject it.
Accepting it means becoming in a believer. (And Xerox the meme.)
Rejecting it means changing from virgin to an unbeliever...

However, in case unbelieving or later believing something different, now in every discussion case this meme, the person has to prove that the meme is untrue before putting forward his own proof for his own case... He has to acknowledge the meme as something that can be disproved, while it has never been proven to start with...

I approve your ideas :) Well the thing is you have a third option besides believing (as you said xeroxing the meme) and rejecting and thus being a non-believer. Researching it. Convincing yourself based on your research before this meme. Truth is the ultimate meme since it can't be copied and not spread. It is a constant that is not open for interpretation based on physical entities. You can acknowledge its existence or not. That are the only options.

In case of Zeitgeist's claims on religion it is just a meme rather then obvious truth. It fails when being tested. Jesus was not a myth as neither was Aleister Crowley for example. Both are individuals that have claims about the beyond. Both have documentation that proves their existence. Both have religious scripture.

Word games? Nono, it is World Games. And according to religions that go around: Winner takes all. :-)

Yeah, that's the main thing that bothers me with religion anyway. Don't get me wrong. I'm not a supporter of religion and mass movements. The idea of a winner in this universe where I just know of a little bit about life on this particular planet seems too human derived to be universal truth anyway :)

Again a pleasure.

P.S Commander Adama? Lorne Greene or Edward James Olmos?
http://www.battlestargalactica.com/index.htm

As it always is for me. Oh I know of the comparison. Makes me also think about George Green :D

elirien

10-23-2008, 12:17 PM

First off, this is a really interesting thread and I thank everyone for submitting their unique arguments.

Now, as far as the quote above is concerned, let me state that:

GOLD IS NOT A RESOURCE. Gold is a commodity that we have historically used as a measure of wealth, but a currency system backed by gold is NOT resourced-based because GOLD IS NOT A RESOURCE.

Neither is silver, platinum, diamonds, rubies, jewels..... the wealth that these commodities represent is not resource-based. The idea of these things measuring wealth is a complete ABSTRACTION.

Well first of all I want to thank you for joining the debate. It is very important that at least we in the "truth seeker" milieu look at what actually is meant in all the documentaries, documents, philosophy and conspiracy of course. It begins to feel like an obligation for me almost and I'm very happy to see like minded, curious people.

The definition of resource in Dictionary.com is:

–noun
1. a source of supply, support, or aid, esp. one that can be readily drawn upon when needed.
2. resources, the collective wealth of a country or its means of producing wealth.
3. Usually, resources. money, or any property that can be converted into money; assets.
4. Often, resources. an available means afforded by the mind or one's personal capabilities: to have resource against loneliness.
5. an action or measure to which one may have recourse in an emergency; expedient.
6. capability in dealing with a situation or in meeting difficulties: a woman of resource.

source: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/resource

Well since we all write on a computer which uses gold as a resource to transfer data in the central processing unit I think that this idea is a fallacy alone by the idea that Gold, Silver, platinum, etc. have no use and are a distraction. I won't go into monatomic gold since I don't know its composition directly but I know it is made from gold and it is being claimed that it has direct effects on the human body.

I want gold the same as I want a roof over my body and food to feed my self. It is useful in the necessary setting and has become a necessity for humans that want to research anything based on their life. Products of mining are resources.

For more on that line of thought, check out Alan Watts (http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=ABBD8B87DD121906&playnext=1), who I've mentioned on this forum before.

And if you are wondering what a commodity is, here is wikipedia to the rescue:

Dictionary.com definition:

–noun, plural -ties.
1. an article of trade or commerce, esp. a product as distinguished from a service.
2. something of use, advantage, or value.
3. Stock Exchange. any unprocessed or partially processed good, as grain, fruits, and vegetables, or precious metals.
4. Obsolete. a quantity of goods.

source: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/commodity

Let's look at it in the case of gold.

1. Yes that is defining it in one use.
2. This as well.
3. Well obviously.
4. Kinda.

We could conclude that the use of gold is what is its definition in this aspect. You can either use it as a Resource or a commodity.

Also, socialism, as you can conclude for yourself by studying the economies of western/northern Europe gives the government control of capital, not resources. Here's another important fact: CAPITAL IS NOT A RESOURCE. Thus socialism (and communism for that matter) is not a resourced-based economy.

Once again wikipedia provides us with an definition of capital:

Same problem here imho. If money is based on gold and if you have a fort knox still going then capital is a resource or at least capital is comprised partly of resource (I don't know what is being used by governments as physical evidence for capital. I could use some help here, especially from you government agents lurking around here :P ).

To some of the other points: When people dispute the credibility of Zeitgeist (1st or 2nd) they NEVER, NOT ONCE mention what they would do if they interpretted the movies and their messages as literal communications. I don't care if you think this religioun or that religioun are real. I don't care if you think the Venus project is a veil for socialism or the new world order.

What are you going to DO about the social/economic/humanitarian crisis that we face?
What ACTION have you decided upon, if any?

Let's talk about that.

Sure. This will be pretty off topic but you asked for it buddy :)

---Rant ahead---

My problem with his the thesis of non religious and religious solutions to this problem is this: No one knows where the heck we are from and where the heck we are going. We don't even know what the heck we are for certain.

Now a solution for this would be "attacking" occultism and don't mean hermetic orders or other secret societies for that matter. The occultism I'm talking about is embedded right here in your backyard so to speak. This occultism starts when your mom tells you that you have been brought here by birds and ends with a scientist telling you that you are a chemical chance. It's covering up information and fallacies. It's finding the intellect "holier" then the human being itself. What do I think is a solution? Don't lie neither to others nor to yourself (which is the most perpetrated crime around). Do you think that this "satanic" system so to speak could live one second if there were a decent and un-romanticized answer to why this is happening. People love to support liars because they know that these will cover up their own. And people love to also blame them for their indifference and ignorance. That rethoric about "God" or "The Devil" made me do it is the main thing about this mental prison.

What do I think I should do? I should close the channels supporting this system without damaging the free will of others. I should inform myself in every aspect of everything that I can find without prejudice and other dramatized memes or thought forms. If someone likes my approach they are open to implement that, but I couldn't care less if they didn't because it is their life even if we are one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively.

That's the action. Be sure what you meddle with and get informed. Share that information so that it can be bettered through your fellow men and women. The most beautiful thing that I find in this movie the ending of a sentence: "...because they are no longer relevant anymore." (or something like that). Truth dissolves falacies and gives you the power to choose wisely.

---Rant over---

By the way, instead of attacking Jaque Fresco on the basis of his appearance in Zeitgeist Addendum, why not respond to his actual writings? There is plenty to be found on the Venus Project website (http://www.thevenusproject.com/intro_main/essay.htm), from which this excerpt has been pulled:

I know I am stretching my limits here but could you post this in a topic just about the venus project. I know that Zeitgeist Addendum and the project are kind of embedded but I think the venus project should be discussed just as the venus project. Even though I am sure even if the venus project is proven to be completely out of context that the director won't change his mind that connects him to this project as he didn't when his views on religion were proven false.

While we are all furiously researching, which I believe most people on this site are doing in earnest, let's try to remember that there is a point to all of this homework. I can't tell you what the point is for you, but I know that for myself, I want to determine the most appropriate action to take for the betterment of my life and the life of everyone on this planet. I suppose yall have to figure out your own individual objectives and when you do find it, make sure that your intellectual efforts are being properly directed toward that goal.

Great Love,
John

I second that.

Be good John.

Reveling John

10-23-2008, 09:04 PM

Well first of all I want to thank you for joining the debate. It is very important that at least we in the "truth seeker" milieu look at what actually is meant in all the documentaries, documents, philosophy and conspiracy of course. It begins to feel like an obligation for me almost and I'm very happy to see like minded, curious people.

I feel the same way, Elirien, like it's become my new job. Ironic, seeing as I'm currently unemployed :)

The definition of resource in Dictionary.com is:

–noun
1. a source of supply, support, or aid, esp. one that can be readily drawn upon when needed.
2. resources, the collective wealth of a country or its means of producing wealth.
3. Usually, resources. money, or any property that can be converted into money; assets.
4. Often, resources. an available means afforded by the mind or one's personal capabilities: to have resource against loneliness.
5. an action or measure to which one may have recourse in an emergency; expedient.
6. capability in dealing with a situation or in meeting difficulties: a woman of resource.

source: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/resource

The problem with dicitionary definitions is that when you we use words to create sentences we have to choose which definitions apply to each word. If you use all six of those definition for 'resource' and apply that same approach to each word in the sentence, you'll get more than a billion different meanings for that sentence, because of course, the definitions themselves are made up of words, each of those words having multiple definitions. So we need to choose ONE definition in order for this conversation to have any meaning. Further more the way Jacque uses the term resource, he is using it as a synonym for NATURAL resources, which is even more specific. Here's what I mean:

In actuality, no one should make decisions as to how this blueprint will be designed. It must be based on the carrying capacity of our planet, its resources, human needs and the like.

-From The Future and Beyond (http://www.thevenusproject.com/intro_main/essay.htm) by Jacque Fresco

So, since my use of the term RESOURCE will always be in reference to NATURAL RESOURCES let's look further into the definition of natural resource:

Natural resources are naturally occurring substances that are considered valuable in their relatively unmodified (natural) form. A natural resource's value rests in the amount of the material available and the demand for it. The latter is determined by its usefulness to production. A commodity is generally considered a natural resource when the primary activities associated with it are extraction and purification, as opposed to creation. Thus, mining, petroleum extraction, fishing, hunting, and forestry are generally considered natural-resource industries, while agriculture is not.
-wikipedia.org (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_resource)

Now, when it says that a resource's value "rests in the amount of the material available and the demand for it," it is defining VALUE within the context of a monetary-based economy. All of your definitions that use the terms VALUE, MEASURE, WEALTH, CAPITAL, and ASSETS are projections of a monetary-based understanding of the resources available to us. So basically when using such definitions as a foundation for argument, you are arguing from the perspective of consciousness that measures everything and defines everything on a scale of supply and demand, which in this manifestation of the world economy are total ABSTRACTIONS. Look at what's happening to the stock market. The economy is shrinking despite that fact that there has been NO CHANGE IN THE QUANTITY OF NATURAL RESOURCES in the last three weeks AND NO CHANGE IN THE DEMAND FOR THESE RESOURCES. If there is an observable change in REAL demand it would actually be an increase, which should result in an expanding economy, and yet...

Think about the housing "bubble" in the US. In July it was reported that the foreclosure crisis had left 2 MILLION homes (in the US alone) standing empty, with the price of these properties plummeting. Is there no demand for houses? My city (los angeles) alone had EIGHTY THOUSAND homeless people at the beginning of this year. San Francisco has TWENTY THOUSAND. New York has FORTY THOUSAND. Is there a demand for homes? Google the term "Tent City" or "Bushville", and you will find that the rate of homelessness in this country is SKY-ROCKETING EXPONENTIALLY. There is SUPPLY and there is a HUGE DEMAND, so why aren't these houses selling, and why is the market price crashing? This would indicate that supply and demand AS DEFINED IN A MONETARY-BASED WORLD ECONOMY IS A COMPLETE ABSTRACTION, having very little relationship to the actuall PHYSICAL MEASUREMENT of SUPPLY and the actual human need expressed as DEMAND.

Well since we all write on a computer which uses gold as a resource to transfer data in the central processing unit I think that this idea is a fallacy alone by the idea that Gold, Silver, platinum, etc. have no use and are a distraction. I won't go into monatomic gold since I don't know its composition directly but I know it is made from gold and it is being claimed that it has direct effects on the human body.

Furthermore, the DEMAND for gold, silver, or platinum is not based on their uses as conductive or semi-conductive materials, which has only come about in the last 60 years or so, although this may be changing at this point in time. However, in the periods of time when money was backed by a gold standard it was not a useful resource of any kind, except as a representation of wealth or capital.

And I didn't say DISTRACTION although that could be applied ironically. The term I'm using is ABSTRACTION:

In philosophical terminology, abstraction is the thought process wherein ideas are distanced from objects.

Abstraction uses a strategy of simplification, wherein formerly concrete details are left ambiguous, vague, or undefined; thus effective communication about things in the abstract requires an intuitive or common experience between the communicator and the communication recipient.

For example, many different things can be red. Likewise, many things sit on surfaces (as in picture 1, to the right). The property of redness and the relation sitting-on are therefore abstractions of those objects.

-wikipedia.org (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abstraction#Thought_process)

I want gold the same as I want a roof over my body and food to feed my self. It is useful in the necessary setting and has become a necessity for humans that want to research anything based on their life. Products of mining are resources.

And yet your DEMAND for gold is not effecting the PRICE (i.e. VALUE) of gold. Rather the value of gold, which fluctuates daily, despite a finite REAL supply and an exponentially increasing REAL demand, is determined by how gold COMMODITIES are selling on the stock market. Notice that COMMODITY is an inherently monetary-based distinction and would have no use in a (natural) resource-based economy.

We could conclude that the use of gold is what is its definition in this aspect. You can either use it as a Resource or a commodity.

Yes you can and the fact that you can use it as a COMMODITY gives owners of gold and gold stock an incentive to ARTIFICIALLY LOWER THE SUPPLY of gold in circulation (which they do, in the same way that they control the supply of silver, diamonds, plantinum, oil, beans, rice, corn, EVERYTHING - despite millions of people having a REAL need/demand for these items). For this same reason stock traders who speciallized in short-selling are given incentive to ARTIFICIALLY INCREASE SUPPLY so that when the commodity looses value they can make money off of the sale (short sellers make money when a stock sells at a loss). This is EXACTLY what they did in the MORTGAGE and DERIVATIVE markets, which led to the sub-mortgage crisis because (and this is freaking insane) THEY PROFIT FROM OUR LOSSES. If gold were ONLY a resource, and it's value were ONLY determined by your REAL need and my REAL need to harness it as a conductive material, our valuation would be completely disconnected from the way we currently assign value to this material. In other words it would have REAL VALUE, but this is IMPOSSIBLE IN A MONETARY SYSTEM.

If money is based on gold and if you have a fort knox still going then capital is a resource or at least capital is comprised partly of resource (I don't know what is being used by governments as physical evidence for capital. I could use some help here, especially from you government agents lurking around here :P ).

That's the whole point, friend. NOTHING IS BEING USED AS PHYSICAL EVIDENCE FOR CAPITAL. That's the whole freakin point.

NOTHING.

Our entire economic model is base on FAITH. It is pure ABSTRACTION. That is why when people get afraid the whole thing starts to fall apart.

From BBC News:

Fear grips global stock markets

...In a day of major panic selling, the Dow Jones index fell as much as 5% in the US before ending down 1.5%.

The fear is that the financial crisis will tip the world into a recession....

Investors increasingly fear a global recession, despite interest rate cuts and cash injections by central banks...

"Fear has been running all over Wall Street," said Dave Henderson, a floor trader on the New York Stock Exchange...

-BBC News (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7662572.stm)

It's right in front of our faces and in the very language that we use to describe the collapse. We have lost FAITH which is the only thing that our capital is supported by. Better put:

CAPITAL IS FAITH.

Those that wield capital and leverage wealth are wielding FAITH and leveraging FAITH. Now that we are loosing FAITH, now that we are SEEING that the whole system revolves around a MIND GAME, the whole thing is falling apart. The ABSTRACTION is no longer believable.

Everyone who reads this and feels that there is atleast some truth to what I'm saying should check out Alan Watts (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Watts). In this short lecture he lays it out sooooo clearly:
http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=ABBD8B87DD121906&playnext=1

I will leave this responce to the realm of capital V.S. resource management. I did read what you had to say about religioun and I quite agree with your position that nobody really knows what's going on and that you've made it your goal to find out for yourself. I love it. DO YOU!:lol3:

As you formulate further responses on this subject try to apply this meme to your thought process:

"Is this thought the product of a monetary system? What would this thought look like in the absence of wealth and capital?"

Great Love,
John

P.S. I've started a new thread for discussing the venus project here:
http://projectavalon.org/forum/showthread.php?p=59869#post59869

elirien

10-24-2008, 11:09 AM

I feel the same way, Elirien, like it's become my new job. Ironic, seeing as I'm currently unemployed :)

Well I am employed but if this continues this way I'll be probably broke, have an internet documentary, some esoteric books and shot by a U.N. peace officer that tried to "reason" with me for an rfid chip :) Not that I see death as doom and gloom but I also don't see it as a "release" from something. I like to give my back to uncle "I dunno ****" on this matter :) Well let's continue with the main topic.

"Is this thought the product of a monetary system? What would this thought look like in the absence of wealth and capital?"

I like to first adress this sentence since it is exactly reflecting my feelings. I don't know if feelings are to be trusted on anything (not that I'm against them. Their heaps of fun many of the times :) ) but this is an important sentence that kind of sets the stage or is sort of a point of reference to return when one get's lost in the "fact jungle".

I don't define myself with an external source anymore. I still have some connections to the external on this matter but I'm trying hard to root them out. I couldn't care less if this monetary system fails (which it will). I don't believe that I am a product of any system. I'm not trying to define myself with the past. I am neither a grandson of Jesus neither of Atatürk. I am what I am and I don't know what the hell it is :)

The problem with dicitionary definitions is that when you we use words to create sentences we have to choose which definitions apply to each word. If you use all six of those definition for 'resource' and apply that same approach to each word in the sentence, you'll get more than a billion different meanings for that sentence, because of course, the definitions themselves are made up of words, each of those words having multiple definitions. So we need to choose ONE definition in order for this conversation to have any meaning. Further more the way Jacque uses the term resource, he is using it as a synonym for NATURAL resources, which is even more specific. Here's what I mean:

Well that sentence from Mr. Fresco doesn't define his view on resources. It just states the blueprint of his theory should be customized for the elements he lists there. Gold is a natural resource by the way.

So, since my use of the term RESOURCE will always be in reference to NATURAL RESOURCES let's look further into the definition of natural resource:

Again applies to gold.

Now, when it says that a resource's value "rests in the amount of the material available and the demand for it," it is defining VALUE within the context of a monetary-based economy. All of your definitions that use the terms VALUE, MEASURE, WEALTH, CAPITAL, and ASSETS are projections of a monetary-based understanding of the resources available to us.

So basically when using such definitions as a foundation for argument, you are arguing from the perspective of consciousness that measures everything and defines everything on a scale of supply and demand, which in this manifestation of the world economy are total ABSTRACTIONS. Look at what's happening to the stock market. The economy is shrinking despite that fact that there has been NO CHANGE IN THE QUANTITY OF NATURAL RESOURCES in the last three weeks AND NO CHANGE IN THE DEMAND FOR THESE RESOURCES. If there is an observable change in REAL demand it would actually be an increase, which should result in an expanding economy, and yet...

If the theory here is that natural resources worth or value should be evaluated by their appliances and rarity then I'm all for that. But I can't see how that could tie in with the idea of using papers representing the resource itself. Ok. The economy model of today is bs. I am saying that of course and the ideals built on scarcity (which is virtual anyway) are also bs. Still I can't see the connection of a representative paper.

Think about the housing "bubble" in the US. In July it was reported that the foreclosure crisis had left 2 MILLION homes (in the US alone) standing empty, with the price of these properties plummeting. Is there no demand for houses? My city (los angeles) alone had EIGHTY THOUSAND homeless people at the beginning of this year. San Francisco has TWENTY THOUSAND. New York has FORTY THOUSAND. Is there a demand for homes? Google the term "Tent City" or "Bushville", and you will find that the rate of homelessness in this country is SKY-ROCKETING EXPONENTIALLY. There is SUPPLY and there is a HUGE DEMAND, so why aren't these houses selling, and why is the market price crashing? This would indicate that supply and demand AS DEFINED IN A MONETARY-BASED WORLD ECONOMY IS A COMPLETE ABSTRACTION, having very little relationship to the actuall PHYSICAL MEASUREMENT of SUPPLY and the actual human need expressed as DEMAND.

As I said above you are totally right on that one. The basis on defining worth with supply and demand graphs is moronic to say the least. I'm a fresh business student and am reading about this bs lately and I can just perceive not optimization of the usage of natural resources but digitization of the human being with these hollow and idiotic economic models. You don't need to change your transactional media to make them better. You just need a brain and good will.

Furthermore, the DEMAND for gold, silver, or platinum is not based on their uses as conductive or semi-conductive materials, which has only come about in the last 60 years or so, although this may be changing at this point in time. However, in the periods of time when money was backed by a gold standard it was not a useful resource of any kind, except as a representation of wealth or capital.

Yeah or perhaps used as a resource for making cups, perhaps the holy grail :P. But there is this monatomic gold issue that reaches far into the times of moses and the pharaohs. I'm not sure if you are familiar with that. It does put a lot of worth on the gold.

And of course there is the sitchin story with enlil and enki creating us as gold miners... Since I don't trust him I can skip that as some sort of father christmas story.

And I didn't say DISTRACTION although that could be applied ironically. The term I'm using is ABSTRACTION:

Sorry. That was my fault. Although it is kinda close :D

And yet your DEMAND for gold is not effecting the PRICE (i.e. VALUE) of gold. Rather the value of gold, which fluctuates daily, despite a finite REAL supply and an exponentially increasing REAL demand, is determined by how gold COMMODITIES are selling on the stock market. Notice that COMMODITY is an inherently monetary-based distinction and would have no use in a (natural) resource-based economy.

Yes.

Yes you can and the fact that you can use it as a COMMODITY gives owners of gold and gold stock an incentive to ARTIFICIALLY LOWER THE SUPPLY of gold in circulation (which they do, in the same way that they control the supply of silver, diamonds, plantinum, oil, beans, rice, corn, EVERYTHING - despite millions of people having a REAL need/demand for these items). For this same reason stock traders who speciallized in short-selling are given incentive to ARTIFICIALLY INCREASE SUPPLY so that when the commodity looses value they can make money off of the sale (short sellers make money when a stock sells at a loss). This is EXACTLY what they did in the MORTGAGE and DERIVATIVE markets, which led to the sub-mortgage crisis because (and this is freaking insane) THEY PROFIT FROM OUR LOSSES. If gold were ONLY a resource, and it's value were ONLY determined by your REAL need and my REAL need to harness it as a conductive material, our valuation would be completely disconnected from the way we currently assign value to this material. In other words it would have REAL VALUE, but this is IMPOSSIBLE IN A MONETARY SYSTEM.

That's the whole point, friend. NOTHING IS BEING USED AS PHYSICAL EVIDENCE FOR CAPITAL. That's the whole freakin point.

NOTHING.

Our entire economic model is base on FAITH. It is pure ABSTRACTION. That is why when people get afraid the whole thing starts to fall apart.

From BBC News:

It's right in front of our faces and in the very language that we use to describe the collapse. We have lost FAITH which is the only thing that our capital is supported by. Better put:

CAPITAL IS FAITH.

Those that wield capital and leverage wealth are wielding FAITH and leveraging FAITH. Now that we are loosing FAITH, now that we are SEEING that the whole system revolves around a MIND GAME, the whole thing is falling apart. The ABSTRACTION is no longer believable.

Everyone who reads this and feels that there is atleast some truth to what I'm saying should check out Alan Watts (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Watts). In this short lecture he lays it out sooooo clearly:
http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=ABBD8B87DD121906&playnext=1

Very true all of the above except again money as a media for transaction. I still think the problem is with the wrong interpretation of the system. Using resource not as resources but as symbols for virtual assets or as you above mentioned as symbols for blind submission is the problem. Capital became faith years ago first when the priest dudes began collecting gold for their "church". It's a long subject which I won't go into here. But as I stated before the only problem I have with your research is that you see money as what it is defined by the federal bank of america. Money is not only that.

I will leave this responce to the realm of capital V.S. resource management. I did read what you had to say about religioun and I quite agree with your position that nobody really knows what's going on and that you've made it your goal to find out for yourself. I love it. DO YOU!:lol3:

Great Love,
John

P.S. I've started a new thread for discussing the venus project here:
http://projectavalon.org/forum/showthread.php?p=59869#post59869

Well at least I'm gonna try which is more fun and interesting then simulations of this search that is being presented to us in moronic plots in TV-Cinema :)

Thank you for your posts John. I'm sure we will arrive at a conclusion in a short time. Maybe we should gather these in a text file and use them on the forums we visit, blogs etc. I2ll be over at your new post later on in the day (got to work occasionally :) ).

Be good all of you.

Reveling John

10-25-2008, 12:59 AM

Very true all of the above except again money as a media for transaction. I still think the problem is with the wrong interpretation of the system. Using resource not as resources but as symbols for virtual assets or as you above mentioned as symbols for blind submission is the problem. Capital became faith years ago first when the priest dudes began collecting gold for their "church". It's a long subject which I won't go into here. But as I stated before the only problem I have with your research is that you see money as what it is defined by the federal bank of america. Money is not only that.

I suppose this is simply a matter of difference in opinion since we have not experienced the society where a genuine attempt to use money simply as a means of resource representation and management was made. Maybe a fair and just society that uses money as it's transactional medium is possible. I don't think that money or currency is bad, anymore than religioun is bad. I'm trying to emphasise the observation that in our history and in our current situation the economic market has been used as tool for control, oppression and the preservation of ignorance. Is that the only way which it can be applied to our society? No, I don't think so. Is it inherently designed for that purpose? Yes, I believe so.

I understand that you have choosen not to put this polar judgement on money and I respect that and feel as well that the judgment is not helpful. At the same I would really like everyone to get into the habit of asking themselves, "Why money?" Money can be a dirge to humankind or an enhancement, and it has certainly been both of those things, but so few people ever get the chance to ask the simple question, "Is money necessary?"

Is money necessary?

Thank you for your posts John. I'm sure we will arrive at a conclusion in a short time. Maybe we should gather these in a text file and use them on the forums we visit, blogs etc. I2ll be over at your new post later on in the day (got to work occasionally :) ).

Be good all of you.

I feel you clearly and resoundingly. Maybe a text compilation of many of this forum's topics would be a useful resource, so yeah, that's an awesome idea. On that matter of reaching a "conclusion" I prefer to side with Terrence McKenna:

We don't need any gurus here, we don't need any Laying Down of the Law. Anybody who tells you they have a clue as to what's happening should be suspect for mental illness and delusions of grandeur. The thought is (and I haven't said this yet but this is the conclusion from all of this): culture is an effort to satisfy this weird desire human beings have to close off experience, to live with closure, to force closure. That's why cultural trips are so bizarre, why they don't make sense to anybody but the Witoto or the Waorani or the Americans or the Japanese; if you're not inside the culture it seems crazy. The cultures don't make sense because they're not trying to make sense. What they're trying to do is produce closure, which then somehow makes a human being, who is living in the light of closure, a more manipulateable, a more malleable, a lesser thing.

So if the experience of the Twentieth Century didn't do it for you, if psychedelics didn't do it for you, I don't know what could do it for you! The message coming back at all of us is: live without closure. That's the honest position, given that you are some kind of a talking monkey, some kind of a primate, some kind of creature, on a planet, in an animal body, incarnate in a time and space. In the face of that, life without closure is the only kind of intellectual honesty there is.
- McKenna speaking (http://www.abrupt.org/LOGOS/tm980728.html) at the Wetlands Preserve, NYC
July 28, 1998

Great Love,
John

elirien

10-25-2008, 10:41 AM

I suppose this is simply a matter of difference in opinion since we have not experienced the society where a genuine attempt to use money simply as a means of resource representation and management was made. Maybe a fair and just society that uses money as it's transactional medium is possible. I don't think that money or currency is bad, anymore than religioun is bad. I'm trying to emphasise the observation that in our history and in our current situation the economic market has been used as tool for control, oppression and the preservation of ignorance. Is that the only way which it can be applied to our society? No, I don't think so. Is it inherently designed for that purpose? Yes, I believe so.

I understand that you have choosen not to put this polar judgement on money and I respect that and feel as well that the judgment is not helpful. At the same I would really like everyone to get into the habit of asking themselves, "Why money?" Money can be a dirge to humankind or an enhancement, and it has certainly been both of those things, but so few people ever get the chance to ask the simple question, "Is money necessary?"

Is money necessary?

There it is actually :D That was my whole point and I knew that we were talking about the same thing just from different perspectives. Is money necessary? Well of course not. But, and this is a big but it is far too early to "dump" it. It is still necessary because of the ethical, physical and also spiritual implications. Which are not addressed in Zeitgeist Addendum. To get rid off money is the last step which we as a species and a collective unconscious are far far far away to achieve right now. It's like saying "I think I can fly" and jumping off a cliff rather then learning the process either by levitation through meditation or researching the proper technology that will open the way.

I feel you clearly and resoundingly. Maybe a text compilation of many of this forum's topics would be a useful resource, so yeah, that's an awesome idea. On that matter of reaching a "conclusion" I prefer to side with Terrence McKenna:

Great Love,
John

Exactly my sentiments again. There is this quote from mckenna that i like very much: "Culture is an operating system" :) I expressed myself wrongly in the previous post. It shouldn't be conclusion but beginning for a new experience/work to be had/done.

Well we are actually half done here on the text part. If TranceAM and the others have nothing to add I will make a pdf out of the posts relevant to the topic to spread around. I will wait until Monday. Perhaps there are still details to discuss on the subject.

Thank you John and every other person in here. This has been an interesting and beautiful experience.

Seva

11-26-2008, 04:04 AM

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7065205277695921912&ei=rBLnSMuaNZrUqAPKl7TkCw&q=Zeitgeist+-+Addendum

and

http://zeitgeistmovie.com/

Great post :)

Ashatav

01-03-2009, 01:38 PM

I found This Video So Good that I Must to put it here:

The THEOSOPHIC NEW AGE connection part 1 (http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=SPgwX9ZX8eA&feature=related)

The THEOSOPHIC NEW AGE connection part 2 (http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=VeparEFkJzg&feature=related)

Cheers!