Zeitgeist Adddendum - A Critical Analysis (for the sake of balance)

[peacelovinman]

http://www.freedom-force.org/freedomcontent.cfm?fuseaction=zeit_addendum&refpage=issues

ZEITGEIST ADDENDUM - A CRITICAL REVIEW
© 2008 by G. Edward Griffin 2008 OCTOBER 9

Hello Mr. Griffin. I'm sure you have heard of the popular movie on the internet, Zeitgeist. It had three separate parts about Christianity being fake, the Federal Reserve being a conspiracy and bad, and that the government was involved in 9/11. Well the sequel just came out, Zeitgeist Addendum, and it seems very dangerous. This movie screams controlled opposition/false solution propaganda more than anything I have ever seen.

The movie starts off with why the Federal Reserve is bad. It seems to latch onto valid concerns that the freedom movement/Ron Paul supporters have been worried about. But its solution is really, really bad and is already sending a lot of people in the wrong direction. It goes on to say that money is evil and has caused every problem in the world. If only we abolished all money and private property everything would be great. All resources should collectively belong to all humans of the world. Intelligent management of resources and technology could allow everyone to be free. The world would turn into some utopia. All crime would go away and greed and corruption would go away. We should be a one world community. It even specifically says that voting for liberty candidates like Ron Paul is the wrong thing to do. I guess we should give up all hope and let bad politicians do whatever they want to us.

It is full of doublespeak, wild assumptions, and crazy socialist propaganda. It also put in more about how religion is bad. I am convinced this thing was specifically made to stop the liberty movement from achieving anything. It puts in just enough truths that we believe in to trick people into following the wrong path.

I think statements about what is wrong with this film from liberty organizations like Freedom Force International would do a lot of good and would prevent some people from going in the wrong direction. Some people might think the best idea is to just ignore it and it will go away. But it appears to be incredibly popular online and gaining support. Even the most popular Ron Paul website posted the video. And the most popular Ron Paul message board has three threads with hundreds of posts talking about it. Here is the video link.
Jonathan, 2008 Oct 6

REPLY FROM EG:

Jonathan, I don't like to criticize anything that is helping to spread the truth about the Federal Reserve and 9/11 but I must agree with the substance of what you have said about this video. I watched it two nights ago and was deeply disturbed by its message. At first, I thought it would be best to just let it play itself out in expectation that most viewers would cross it off as whacky. However, the production value is high, the effects and sound score are compelling, and there is enough truth embedded in the beginning to capture the attention and possibly the trust of many within the freedom movement. So here are my comments on a few items of concern:

1. The information about the Federal Reserve is, for the most part, right on target. However, I practically fell out of my chair when the program repeated that old, silly argument about the Fed not creating enough money to cover the cost of interest on debt; and, therefore, the world must forever be in debt. I knew right there that the writer did not read The Creature from Jekyll Island or, if he did, he forgot my analysis of this common myth. For those who are interested in that topic, it is fund on pages 191-192 of The Creature.

2. The next jolt came when the program praised Civil War Greenbacks, calling them debt-free. Actually, Greenbacks were contrary to the U.S. Constitution and, although they were not fiat money issued by the banks, they were fiat money issued by the government. That was better than paying interest on nothing to bankers, but they still wiped out the purchasing power of American money through massive inflation. They can not correctly be called debt-free, either, because they represented debt on the shoulders of the government, which means, of course, on the shoulders of the taxpayers. It never ceases to amaze me how people think that the solution to money created out of nothing by those big, bad bankers is to have money created out of nothing by those nice, trustworthy politicians. Yet, that is what this program supports.

3. There is a lengthy segment in which the author of I Was an Economic Hit Man, John Perkins, tells the story of how propagandists in the U.S. manipulated public opinion to support military action against several Latin American countries. Then Perkins says that these propagandists scared Americans by telling them that the leaders of these countries were Marxists who were aligned with the Soviets. This, of course, is a half truth that is just as dangerous as a total lie. It is true about the propagandists and their strategy to scare the public into supporting military intervention in those countries, but it is false to portray those dictators as great humanitarians who cared only for the well being of their people. That is total bunk. They WERE aligned with the Soviet Union and they WERE part of a Marxist/Leninist strategy to dominate Latin America; a strategy that continues to this day.

There was plenty not to like on both sides of that struggle, but objective historians would never depict the Rhodesians (the CFR crowd in the U.S.) as bad guys but depict the Soviet puppets as good guys. In his book, Perkins reveals this same slant. He exposes the foul tactics of international corporations, the IMF, and World Bank, but he never mentions a Leftist dictator, such as Fidel Castro or Hugo Chavez without praising them. Perkins is a collectivist aligned with the Left, and that strongly influences his telling of this story. Yet the producers of the video make no mention of this bias and give him an inordinate amount of time to present his slanted view without challenge.

4. Perhaps the biggest insult to our intelligence is the main theme of the program. It is that profits are the root of all our problems today. That being the case, we must change mankind to reject profit and we must work together on some other basis. It is never quite clear what that basis is, but, whatever it is, it will be administered and directed by an elite group, at least in the beginning. I was stunned by the fact that this is pure Marxism. Mark theorized that people had to be re-educated (in labor camps, if necessary) to cleanse their minds of the profit motive. He and his disciples, such as Lenin and Stalin and Khruschev, said that, eventually, the character of man would be purged of greed, and then the state would wither away because it no longer would be needed. Sure! We saw that in the Soviet Union and China, right? Yet this Marxist nonsense is exactly what is offered in this video program. It is Communism without using the name.

The profit motive is neither good nor bad. It can be applied either way depending on social and political factors. The desire for profit is merely the desire to be compensated for our labor, our creativity, our knowledge, or even for our risk. Without profit, very little would be accomplished in the world - not even if everyone spent a few years in labor camps to be re-educated. It is a basic part of man's nature and is the mainspring of human progress, as Henry Grady Weaver described it in his book by that same title. Throughout history, whenever man lived in a system that allows him to be rewarded for his work, there has been great productivity and abundance. By contrast, where social engineers gained control of the state and restricted people from receiving the fruits of their labor, productivity fell, and scarcity was the norm.

The profit motive functions differently in different political systems. In a free system where government does not intervene in the market place, the profit motive always will manifest itself as competition, each person or each company trying to deliver better quality products and services at lower prices. That was how it used to be in the early days of America, and that is what led to the greatest outpouring of productivity and abundance the world has ever seen. However, in a collectivist system where government controls every conceivable aspect of economic and commercial activity (the system that now exists in America), the profit motive always manifests itself as a quest for political influence and laws to favor one group over another. The net effect is to eliminate competition in the market place. Under collectivism, success is achieved, not by creating better products and services for less cost, but by controlling legislators and government agencies. It is a system of legalized plunder, as Frederic Bastiat called it in his famous treatise, The Law. Unfortunately, it is the system that dominates most of the world today.

Zeitgeist Addendum ignores this reality. At one point the narrator even says that the greatest evil in the world today is "the free enterprise system." That's an incredible statement, especially inasmuch as the free enterprise system has been dead for several decades. It lives in name only. The whole world now is in the grips of non-competitive monopolies and cartels that have forged partnerships with governments. All of the evils to which this program alludes are the result, not of the free enterprise system, but of the abandonment of free enterprise and the adoption of collectivism. This program creates a mythological boogeyman and then advocates more of the very thing that has brought us to the mess we are in today.

The enemy of mankind is not profit. It is a political system of big government. Yet, this program is supportive of some of the most notable big-government collectivist on the planet. Marxist/Leninists may be enemies of collectivists in Washington, DC, but they are collectivists in their own right. The Communist model is no better than the Nazi model.

There is much more that could be said about other program topics such as technology supposedly being our salvation, about the a future world in which no one has to work, and about common ownership of land, oceans, natural resources, etc. but, for the most part, these merely are sub issues to the ones already described, so I will spare my readers the pain of further discourse.

In summary, this program does NOT offer a cure. It offers a mega dose of the disease itself.

[Tolga]

who financed this film ?

[Phtha]

Edward G Griffin is the very person that woke me up.
I find he is one of the most knowledgeable people around.

Thanks for sharing his review.

@Tolga - I can't answer your question about finances, but according to Alex Jones the person who made the movie is a NY film director who is not using his
real name...

Here is Alex's review:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EyQtN4HY4Ko&sdig=1

[raulduke]

Thank you for the article/letter peacelovinman.

In the title you say "(for the sake of balance)", but I think this issue is more important than that.

I think for all of our own sake's, we should scrutinize this film as much as anything that enters our personal research, especially since the film advocates that we act now.
I watched the film a day or so after it's release. I was impressed w/ the first forty min. of monetary system analysis, although after researching it's claims and now reading this article from Mr. Griffin, it's becoming clear that there are significant holes there too.

Somethig Richard Hoagland often says, is very relevant here, I think:
"The lie is different at every level"

There are good ideas in Zeitgeist Addendum that I have been employing for years. i.e; I beg and plead w/ anyone I meet, that is contemplating joining the military, to consider any other option.

I was alarmed to hear the film link all work to some sort of tedious factory assembly line. Indeed those types of jobs exist, and mainly to serve the greater benefit of the PTB, but humans are creative and in my opinion we are here (earth) to create. It is rewarding to create a business that serves your nieghbor and yourself.

The film also seems to assert that preying personalities and agendas are not part of human nature. While many of us are good people, can we all say that we never consider possible beneficial avenues presented to us, that may take advantage of unwhitting parties? We may never act on those considerations, but the possibility exists because we have free will.

It seems this film wants to subdue free will in the name of what's best for humanity. I realise that this inculdes saving inocent victims from a drunk driver by shutting down his/her car before they can do harm. But who says you're drunk before your car is shut down? A computer. But who programs the computer? Some unseen human authority.
This is a very slippery slope and at the bottom, is you, controlled omnipotently for the "greater good of humanity".

Here is the first third of the Alex Jones take on Zietgiest Addendum. This is, in my opinion, a pretty objective analysis.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EyQtN4HY4Ko


What have many of us learned about the current PTB in our research? They are interested in much more than just money. They are interested in control, over YOU. This film is in my opinion is a mish mash of truths, lies, and, half truths that overall has the potential to blind you w/ production values and fantasy world ideals into forgetting the overall message, which seems to be: surrender your free will for the greater good of humanity.




Thanks for introducing this thread peacelovinman.

[raulduke]

Oops!

Sorry for reposting the Alex Jones review. I was contemplating my response for awhile and forgot to check to see if anyone else had posted.

[nivosh]

quote from 'Jonathan':
If only we abolished all money and private property everything would be great...

The Venus project men is stating that it is not perfect, there is no perfection.
Its an ongoing process of rejecting the old and useless patterns of working for profit, as it encourages greed. the main issue here is a rethinking of the motives. if the motive is money, then you don't care for the environment.
the best way to get an everlasting stream of money is to enslave peaple to buy more and more, and to get that is to make products that will last less and less.

quote from 'Jonathan':
All resources should collectively belong to all humans of the world. Intelligent management of resources and technology could allow everyone to be free...


What is wrong with this idea? it is certainly much better then the one we have today.


quote from 'Jonathan':
It also put in more about how religion is bad...


Religion is not bad it is simply irrelevant.
it had a purpose of controlling the masses. now is the time for educating people not to be afraid of some god figure that will punish you if you touch your winnie...


quote from 'Jonathan':

I am convinced this thing was specifically made to stop the liberty movement from achieving anything


What have you and all the other movements achieved exactly?
Nothing on a global scale.
There is more poverty, more pollution, more ignorance.
The idea is to change the system totally, change the motive for success totally so human beings will want to celebrate life without wanting to get something out of it except the feeling of the joy of sharing.


quote from 'Raulduke':

The film also seems to assert that preying personalities and agendas are not part of human nature. While many of us are good people, can we all say that we never consider possible beneficial avenues presented to us, that may take advantage of unwhitting parties? We may never act on those considerations, but the possibility exists because we have free will.


We do not have a free will!
Tell that to the person who try to quit smoking...
we have free will to the extent the EGO allows us to have.
and the current system supports the GROWTH of the EGO, therefore the GROWTH of the human suffering.

you have to build and work in order to have free will.
this is where spirituality education comes in.

quote from 'Raulduke':
It seems this film wants to subdue free will in the name of what's best for humanity...



This is nonsense!
The film creator is trying to show a part of the truth and offer a different path to a better world.

quote from 'Raulduke':
...I realise that this inculdes saving inocent victims from a drunk driver by shutting down his/her car before they can do harm. But who says you're drunk before your car is shut down? A computer. But who programs the computer? Some unseen human authority.
This is a very slippery slope and at the bottom, is you, controlled omnipotently for the "greater good of humanity".



Come on man!
This is just a blue print of ideas. we have a long way until we will succeed
in creating a better human race.

quote from 'REPLY FROM EG':
...That being the case, we must change mankind to reject profit and we must work together on some other basis. It is never quite clear what that basis is

How about the basis of love?

quote from 'reply from EG':

...The desire for profit is merely the desire to be compensated for our labor, our creativity, our knowledge, or even for our risk.


The desire of profit is an EGO desire like all desires, that comes from the notion we are separate from one another and from the universe.
When we will understand that all is one the desire will be to serve the others, therefor to serve ourselves.
And there is your motive!

quote from 'reply from EG':
...Without profit, very little would be accomplished in the world.


The idea of profit will change from "profit to the little me" to the "profit for the big whole."

I totally agree that the second part of ZeitGeist is somewhat biased toward a social idea, but what is wrong with that?
I also agree that it lacks a certain objectivity and balance in the presentation of the ideas but it is still a powerful step on the way of change.

WE NEED A TOTAL CHANGE OF THE SYSTEM, NOT JUST A FIX OF THE OLD ONE!

peace and love to all!

[Mike_Jetson]

I think its slightly misguided. I dont believe its deliberate from the PTB

[raulduke]

nivosh,
I would like to say that I am not happy that you have chopped and spliced quotes from the CRITICAL REVIEW and my post w/o labeling either.

For now, I am too tired to adequately respond to your misrepresentations.
I will respond thoroughly as soon as I can.

peace and good night.

[LiquidSwordz]

Adam Smith in his book "The Wealth of Nations" in 1776. Capitalists favor a system of free enterprise which means the government should NOT interfere in the economy - that the laws of supply and demand will make sure that the economy runs most efficiently in meeting people's needs.

[sehnsuchtben]

Thanks heaps for posting that. The Creature was also the first book I read about the Fed and the US money supply etc. I have a high reverence of G.E. Griffin for his contributions over the years, and I still read from The Creature regularly.

I would also recommend a book called The Web of Debt by Ellen Brown, which I think is also excellent and in many ways more contemporary, however a little less 'conspiratorial' in a sense. It goes into derivatives, sub-prime, economic collapse etc. She actually puts forward a different argument to Griffin re: Greenback dollars [see below] - she asserts that debt-free govt-issued money is NOT inflationary and simply 'primes the pump' for more business activity. This is in opposition to the dollar backed by the gold-standard that Griffin and Ron Paul (go, Ron!) are all about. I absolutely love both books, but I must say that I refer to The Web of Debt far more regularly for info about market manipulation (PPT etc.), derivatives and collapse. The Creature is great for things like the bailout game, the NWO, fabians and socialism, along with all those interesting little alternative historical takes on events like the Russian revolution etc., and depopulation and The Report from Iron Mountain.

Cheers
Ben


2. The next jolt came when the program praised Civil War Greenbacks, calling them debt-free. Actually, Greenbacks were contrary to the U.S. Constitution and, although they were not fiat money issued by the banks, they were fiat money issued by the government. That was better than paying interest on nothing to bankers, but they still wiped out the purchasing power of American money through massive inflation. They can not correctly be called debt-free, either, because they represented debt on the shoulders of the government, which means, of course, on the shoulders of the taxpayers. It never ceases to amaze me how people think that the solution to money created out of nothing by those big, bad bankers is to have money created out of nothing by those nice, trustworthy politicians. Yet, that is what this program supports.

[RaKaR]

Namaste, Honorable Avalon Members,

'For the sake of balance' is an interesting way of putting it, as if Balance is something one(WE) can find outside of ONESELF.

So to see, The-Powers-That-Be, the Champions of the Status Quo, are contre-attacking big Way! And spreading fear.
I think that Member Nivosh has plainly expressed it; i will just add that it is really time that People understand that No one needs anymore Someone else to teach him/her what/how to think. We are independent and make our choices freely. Our Consciousness is ever evolving.
A couple of points, though:
Reading this 'balancing review', i could not help but think that some People out there do not seem to understand or are not willing to accept that the Paradigm is shifting, that a New Era is being born, that the Reality and the System behind it need some thorough rethinking and fixing.
I also noticed that the whole 'Apology' is based on the Absolute and Unchallenged Value of Market, Free-ride Capitalism, Profit and Material Expansion.
I think that the current state of the hereupon based Economy speaks for itself.
Marxism/Socialism/URSS.
Those Experiences were in no shape or form better or different from Free-Market-Economy, with regard to the Environment, Harmony between Humans, Nature and other Life Forms; but this being said, it remains also interesting to see how the authors of that paper carefully avoided any reference to the role the Western Capitalist Alliance and the Church (remember the 'merits' of the Late Pope John Paul II) massively played in the Fall of that Alternative Structure.
I see nothing perse wrong in being 'Left' - as a part of the all covering Humans Experiences in their Search of Happiness.

This paper neglected, in my opinion, also one Crucial Element of Project Venus, namely the Inner Connection and Balance to be searched and, hopefully, be established between Spiritual Needs, Human Development and Nature as a Whole.
Ecology and Harmony are here paramount.

Finally, this article is, in my understanding, just another interpretation - and everyone is entitled to that - and it treats mainly of Details, for the authors themselves acknowledged that the Core of the Analysis of 'Zeitgeist: Addendum' has some grounds.

I made freely my Choice upon Discernment. And i have some work to do.


Regards,

RaKaR
www.futureofmankind.co.uk

[Richard T]

Isn't calling Chavez a dictator a little disinformative? Was Salvador Allende a dictator as well?
If it must again fall in the American trap of Leftist vs Conservatives argumentation as a basis for analysis, then there is no true dialogue possible. The ideology will drive the intent.

Those people would benefit from talking to each other, without the stain of polarity. In other words from outside of their boxes, whether it be the right or left box. And they might find that they have not the answer individually but have it together.

There won't be money forever on this planet. Money is part of a system that binds man to a form of slavery.
On the other hand, man has no real will, so the few would have to carry the many if all boundaries afforded by a monetary system was to disappear right now. When the planet is more evolved, the consciousness of individuals won't need artificial incentives to move forward.

Today's two major lines of power tension, sex and money, are used to funnel the energy of humanity into the sphere of a civilization that uses that energy for its own good at the expense of the individual. Those lines of tension are the basis for the instinctual drive to dominate. It is therefore not surprising that those two lines of tension are at the base of the greatest number of homicides on the globe. Therefore, people are not free, for all the talks of freedom they have, freedom remains a philosophical concept.

And intelligent, articulate people, should leave the prison of their ideologies to really talk, which also means to really listen, to each other. Unfortunately they would rather argue as representatives of their ideologies, instantaneously losing the ability to represent themselves as free minds.

Money systems remains because human psychology is not fundamentally real but is a construction based on the rules of the civilization. And this civilization is based on the strong emotions that are activated by sex and money. When psychology is deprived of those, the psychological man becomes quite depressed. And those who are spiritual and abandon those forces become useless to themselves and to others, because they develop no will.

Freedom will begin when the mind cannot be hypnotized with ideologies. And it is then only that people will start talking instead of chatting.

[Richard T]

The film also seems to assert that preying personalities and agendas are not part of human nature. While many of us are good people, can we all say that we never consider possible beneficial avenues presented to us, that may take advantage of unwhitting parties? We may never act on those considerations, but the possibility exists because we have free will.

I agree that this is a weakness of the addendum, which has to assume that the human mind results only from its material condition.

On the other hand, since we agree that there are influences that come from the invisible side of the mind, we must wonder about what we mean by free will.

It is not free will that the forces that be want to subdue, on the contrary. They want you to believe and reinforce the concept of free will. What they want to subdue is freedom. And the concept of free will is used to hide the prison that is holding humanity captive.

[NOWIAM]

This video was VERY compelling. But I would contend with a couple of issues in it and also make a comment if I may.

1. Although a “resourced based economy” sounds promising, “technology” would not be the only valuable commodity that humans wield. We must be careful in limiting personal or social value to only materialistic things. There are other potentially shared values which can be realized. Of course I realize the problems that have arisen in history with non-tangible based “values” which reside beyond scientific observation and consensus. But what I am speaking about is not beyond social sciences and certainly not limited to mere beLIEf.

2. I don’t agree that religions only value is in “emotional” solace for its believers. However, I should state that I feel the core of the Zeitgeist argument is against the institutionalization of spirituality, which is “religion”. And they have clearly demonstrated in both of their videos major problems with religious “beLIEf” systems. So, let me just say there are indeed practitioners of religions and others forms of non-institutionalized spirituality who EXPERIENTIALLY recognize numerous values beyond mere “emotional” appeasement.

3. Economics isn’t my strong point so I’m curious. Since the “power elite” can create “fiat” money (money created out of thin air backed by no substance), why couldn’t they just one day increase the value of gold (etc) to be equal with their paper (or digital) money?

[RaKaR]

I agree that this is a weakness of the addendum, which has to assume that the human mind results only from its material condition.

On the other hand, since we agree that there are influences that come from the invisible side of the mind, we must wonder about what we mean by free will.

It is not free will that the forces that be want to subdue, on the contrary. They want you to believe and reinforce the concept of free will. What they want to subdue is freedom. And the concept of free will is used to hide the prison that is holding humanity captive.

Deep, impartial analysis, indeed!

Thanks for reminding us of the Studies of Mr Sigmund Freud and others on this domain, Member Richard T.
It would be fair, i guess, to state that, sometimes things are not quite what they seem to be or what we assume them to be.

Regards,

RaKaR
www.futureofmankind.co.uk

[Reveling John]

You know what, cutting this review up and exploring the language out-of-context is frankly the only way to demonstrate how fool hardy the statements are. These individual statements are absolute mis-truths (lies), which have been strategically placed into the middle of a valid argument or tacked on to the end. They are already out-of-context, in the way in which they are originally used!

http://www.freedom-force.org/freedomcontent.cfm?fuseaction=zeit_addendum&refpage=issues

If only we abolished all money and private property everything would be great. All resources should collectively belong to all humans of the world. Intelligent management of resources and technology could allow everyone to be free. The world would turn into some utopia. All crime would go away and greed and corruption would go away. We should be a one world community.

So, what's the argument here? Are we supposed to be cajoled by the cynical sarcasm that he leaves dripping from a simple synopsis of the message?
Let me show you what this same content means to me:

In the wake of a once eminent collapse, human beings realized that they had the opportunity to take steps towards an evolutionary leap in social, ecological, spiritual, moral and emotional health. Like the ancient thought of traditional indigenous peoples, they recognized the inherent value of their connections to the earth, the stars, each other and the underlying mechanism that is responsible for the eternal dance of awareness and perception. The acceptance of a universal obligation of each and every element to the well-being of every other element became not only the rule-of-law, but the foundation of logic, incentive, and fulfillment (as opposed to these things hanging on the thread of monetary gain). In such a society would crime as we know it still exist? Would corruption have any motive or method of operation? Would this picture of a inter-universal dynamic civilization be accurately analyzed as a "One World Community"?

So, how does that sound without the sarcastic tom-foolery?

It even specifically says that voting for liberty candidates like Ron Paul is the wrong thing to do.
This is implied, but it is not stated in this way. That would be one interpretation.
I guess we should give up all hope and let bad politicians do whatever they want to us.
Nope. This is neither implied nor said.


It is full of doublespeak, wild assumptions, and crazy socialist propaganda.

Show me.... like I'm a small child. Be specific


It puts in just enough truths that we believe in to trick people into following the wrong path.

If you think that anything that comes out of this video is dictating that you should follow any, and I mean ANY imperative that is contrary to your own internal impression of Love, then you have just about completely turned your mind off to the intent of the author and of the entire movement. DO NOT FOLLOW. How can anyone *trick* you, when they are telling you to DO YOU? JUST DO YOU. :lmao:


...
Jonathan, 2008 Oct 6
...

And here's the reply:


REPLY FROM EG:

... I watched it two nights ago and was deeply disturbed by its message... So here are my comments on a few items of concern:

1. The information about the Federal Reserve is, for the most part, right on target. However, I practically fell out of my chair when the program repeated that old, silly argument about the Fed not creating enough money to cover the cost of interest on debt; and, therefore, the world must forever be in debt. I knew right there that the writer did not read The Creature from Jekyll Island or, if he did, he forgot my analysis of this common myth. For those who are interested in that topic, it is fund on pages 191-192 of The Creature.


Ok, so is he trying to sell me his book? Why doesn't he make specific arguments, right here, addressing specific claims from Addendum that he feels are inaccurate? Notice that he does not specifically say that any sentence in the Fed section is false. He implies that something may be false, and allows that implication to be broadly applied to the entire section. So, in short, he has made NO commentary about anything, allowing for his implications to speak for themselves, unless of course you go out, buy his book, and desperately search for what ever argument he may have made in said book.


2. The next jolt came when the program praised Civil War Greenbacks, calling them debt-free. Actually, Greenbacks were contrary to the U.S. Constitution and, although they were not fiat money issued by the banks, they were fiat money issued by the government. That was better than paying interest on nothing to bankers, but they still wiped out the purchasing power of American money through massive inflation.... It never ceases to amaze me how people think that the solution to money created out of nothing by those big, bad bankers is to have money created out of nothing by those nice, trustworthy politicians.
Ok, that never ceases to amaze me either, BUT....

Yet, that is what this program supports.

This statement is what we call a lie. Addendum does not support the creation of a government produced fiat currency. Addendum does not support ANY economy founded on ANY form of monetary system/relationship. Did this guy even get half-way through the film? If he watched the entire piece, which he seems to indicate he did, then his use of this tag statement is an expression of insincerity (i.e. lying).

...This, of course, is a half truth that is just as dangerous as a total lie. It is true about the propagandists and their strategy to scare the public into supporting military intervention in those countries, but it is false to portray those dictators as great humanitarians who cared only for the well being of their people. That is total bunk. They WERE aligned with the Soviet Union and they WERE part of a Marxist/Leninist strategy to dominate Latin America; a strategy that continues to this day.

This is SOOOOO transparent. This guy is screaming "I'm a free-market economist who cannot bare to face the truth of my ideology's impact in the real world, on real people!" So is Bolivia part of some Marxist ploy to dominate South America? Are the indigenous peoples of those lands, who have been exploited, bamboozled and sucked dry for centuries, demonstrating psychosis when they move to elect leaders who champion change, fairness and compassion?

That's f'n horse-**** and that guy is too intelligent to not know that.


...In his book, Perkins reveals this same slant. He exposes the foul tactics of international corporations, the IMF, and World Bank, but he never mentions a Leftist dictator, such as Fidel Castro or Hugo Chavez without praising them. Perkins is a collectivist aligned with the Left, and that strongly influences his telling of this story. Yet the producers of the video make no mention of this bias and give him an inordinate amount of time to present his slanted view without challenge.

WITHOUT CHALLENGE?

Decades of unchallenged, unmediated propaganda have informed every aspect of the American experience of these events. DECADES. Perkins comes on and speaks for about 15 minutes on subjects into which the government has sunk billions of dollars for hundreds of thousands of hours of fictional media to keep us *informed*. UNCHALLENGED?

Are you kidding me?!!!


That being the case, we must change mankind to reject profit and we must work together on some other basis. It is never quite clear what that basis is...

IF IT IS NOT IMMEDIATELY CLEAR TO YOU WHAT THE NEW *BASIS* OF HUMAN INTERACTIVITY SHOULD BE, WILL BE, ACTUALLY IS, AND HAS ALWAYS BEEN, then let me help you out:

The Basis of the new paradigm is Love.

Unconditional Love.


... but, whatever it is, it will be administered and directed by an elite group, at least in the beginning.

No. This is never said. This is never implied. This statement is a LIE.



...The desire for profit is merely the desire to be compensated for our labor, our creativity, our knowledge, or even for our risk.

This is not true. The desire for PROFIT has no relationship to the incentive for a CREATIVE act, whatsoever. I create because I fill compelled to express something that can only be expressed as an act of creation. Money is no incentive. Someone who makes art for the sake of profit, using profit as an incentive to do her work, is not partaking in an act of creation. She is working, which is very, very different. Someone who receives compensation subsequent to producing a genuine artifact of creation is not being payed for the act of creation; they are being paid for the use of the intellectual property which represents the creation itself. Money does NOT generate art.


Without profit, very little would be accomplished in the world - not even if everyone spent a few years in labor camps to be re-educated.

Show me. Prove it. Give specific examples of the non-accomplishments of a society in which financial or political profit did not play a fundamental role. This statement is based on NOTHING. It is complete presumption based on no 'real world' experiences, whatsoever.


It is a basic part of man's nature and is the mainspring of human progress, as Henry Grady Weaver described it in his book by that same title. Throughout history, whenever man lived in a system that allows him to be rewarded for his work, there has been great productivity and abundance.

Does he live in a hole in the ground? What does he have to say about these societies/cultures?

Anasazi/Hopi
Maya
Yuman
Quechua
Inuit

Where is the proof that reward (profit) has lead to "great productivity and abundance"? For WHOM? And who was left on the ass end of the stick? What's the ratio of reapers-of-abundance to reapers-of-mysery and pain?
1:1 - no
1:10 - no
1:100 - nope
1:1000 - hmmm, so for every one on this planet that feels his basic needs are totally and fully accounted for and be rest assured in the continuity of his situation, how many folks around the world cannot feel that safety and well-being?


...By contrast, where social engineers gained control of the state and restricted people from receiving the fruits of their labor, productivity fell, and scarcity was the norm.

As if these socialized societies were developing in bubble, completely unhindered by the pouring of historic amounts of wealth and resources into the concerted effort to destroy those societies. What simple minded being accepts this argument as being made upon any kind of sound foundation?


Ok, and this is how he ends his tirade:

In summary, this program does NOT offer a cure. It offers a mega dose of the disease itself.
What disease! This is a meaningless statement. He may as well have said, "Zeitgeist Addendum does not support patriotism." So, what?!

In what way is it promoting a diseased world-view? In what way are it's principles inhibiting, restrictive, or hateful? In what way does it promote fear and anger?

In what way does it promote Love?

In what way does it promote Empowerment?

In what way does it promote Trust?

In what way does it promote Honesty?

In what way does it promote Hope?

In what way does it promote Personal Relevance?

In what way does share with us a vision of an intelligent and meaningful civilization, which we now have the opportunity to dream into being?

[raulduke]

Hi guys. I'm back after a brief rest. I could not sleep w/ this wieghing on my mind.

nivosh,
I was planning on addressing you point by point, but I realised that this would only serve to further muddy the waters.
Instead I would like to address the two most imortant points (IMO) of your post that can be found in the quotes below.

1. WE NEED A TOTAL CHANGE OF THE SYSTEM, NOT JUST A FIX OF THE OLD ONE!

Agreed. But rest assured that the PTB will not simply step aside because we all want them to. It seems to me that Zietgiest Addendum dances around the notion (w/o ever addressing it) that in order for their utopia to exist: something very huge has to rock society so hard, as to deconstruct it completely. And then we could begin building this utopia.

Well trust me, the PTB are banking (no pun intended) on this something going their way and remaining on top in the wake of its aftremath.
I want a utopia too, but wanting one will not help. We must operate in their system (reality) in order to bring it down.


2.
We do not have a free will!


This confuses me. Without free will, how can you expect to change the system?

Free will, I suppose, is a subjective term. You can educate yourself to the best of your abilty in order to make a decision. By the same token you can (regarding the same decision) rely on nothing but how you feel. Or you can combine the two and then decide. This is free will to me.

A selfless act is beautiful, in part, because it not forced. The option to do nothing or even to do evil is present.

We do have free will. It can be hi-jacked, but only so long as we remain ignorant.
If you belive that we do not have free will, then all is lost.

Sincerely, nivosh, I am interested to hear you clarify your opinions on these subjects, if you do not mind.


peace.

[nivosh]

nivosh,
I would like to say that I am not happy that you have chopped and spliced quotes from the CRITICAL REVIEW and my post w/o labeling either.

Raulduke, i am sorry, I should have stated what quotation came from.
It was laziness that held me there...

i look forward to your adequately response to my misrepresentations.

[nivosh]

I have changed my earlier post to clearly state the quote source.

Thank you for helping me improve my self, Raulduke...:original:

[bennycog]

what did YOU think after YOU seen this documentary?
how did it make YOU feel?
did you feel it would wake the people up around you?
did you feel it would change our planet and how we conduct our lives?
did you feel it would create understanding among your brothers?
what does the person you most trust, feel about the information this documentary has brought into view? (not that most of us did not know how we are being manipulated).

answers dont need to be givin. they just need to be thought about.

for me i feel it can be the begining of the thought process that the masses can use to awaken themselves.

most definitly like any infomation we have been givin at anytime, has another agenda ,or not quite managed to embrace us with what we feel within ourselves is the truth.

benny

[Providence]

Hi Richard T -

Its me again on another thread....! I really enjoy reading your posts.

So... if money systems remain because human psychology is a construction based on the rules of the civilization, and civilization is based on strong emotions.... then what logically follows is that strong emotions are rooted in human psychology. What you postulated seems like a circular argument to me - unless I am misunderstanding it here.

Also, if pyschology is deprived of sex and money, and those who are spiritual abandon those forces, I don't believe they become useless at all - they are freed indeed and are revered in history as our most outstanding philosophers.

P

[RaKaR]

Precisely, Member Reveling John; i would just add: let them show us the Money!:-)


And again, what are they complaining about? What are they afraid of?
Is rationally choosing and getting ready for a Sound Spiritual Growth a Dangerous Path?
Isn't gathering and critically examining information( both intuitively and by way of contre-checking); building Sound Communities upon shared views and values and drawing plans in order to move forward, upon Rationality, Faisability and Harmony with Nature and Mother earth the True Essence of Project Avalon?
Isn't Project Avalon about making Fundamental Choice; heartfully embracing what one intuitively feels as an Expression of the New times; accepting the New Paradigm, getting ready for the Shift of Consciousness; care for one another?
Is 'Zeitgeist: Addendum' not about all that?
Just wondering, really.

Regards,

RakaR
www.futureofmankind.co.uk

[Truth voice 2012]

This doesnt really sound like a balanced analysis to me. Sounds like a terrified PTB attempt at a debunk. I love how obvious ye make it. Its funny. The final truth of the matter is the profit based society were in doesnt work for any one except the PTB. It has to end or freedom and possibly humanity will end. Im afraid one of the very few ways out of this prison happens to be a resource based society. I know the debunkers here will have to lose their power, status and money and drop down to the same level as every one else. It will damage your large ego's and make ye throw a strop but everything will be ok. I dont think youll be able to stop the movement now anyway. It started even before the film came out :tongue2:

[raulduke]

i look forward to your adequately response to my misrepresentations.
I am sorry and I apologize for the way I phrased that. I was sleepy, but that's no excuse. It was antogonistic and does not further this debate in a positive direction.

I noticed that our most recent posts ovelapped somewhat in terms of time, but did you have a chance to read my 4th post in this thread, just above your 2nd and 3rd?
These are the concerns I really hold about Zietgeist Addendum and your original post nivosh.

I really think we are on the same page here regarding the kind of society we would like to live in.
I'm just concerned that what Zietgiest Addendum is proposing, while extremely well meaning, is easily corruptable.



Thank you for helping me improve my self, Raulduke...:original:

If you meant this honestly, then, I could not be happier.

peace.

[RaKaR]

I am sorry and I apologize for the way I phrased that. I was sleepy, but that's no excuse. It was antogonistic and does not further this debate in a positive direction.

I noticed that our most recent posts ovelapped somewhat in terms of time, but did you have a chance to read my 4th post in this thread, just above your 2nd and 3rd?
These are the concerns I really hold about Zietgeist Addendum and your original post nivosh.

I really think we are on the same page here regarding the kind of society we would like to live in.
I'm just concerned that what Zietgiest Addendum is proposing, while extremely well meaning, is easily corruptable.




If you meant this honestly, then, I could not be happier.

peace.


Thanks for your sincere concern and for urging us to remain wise and vigilant, Member raulduke("I really think we are on the same page here regarding the kind of society we would like to live in.
I'm just concerned that what Zietgiest Addendum is proposing, while extremely well meaning, is easily corruptable.").

We shall do our best.

Regards,
RaKaR
www.futureofmankind.co.uk

[Steve_G]

This thread is one of the most impressive I've seen here for a long time. I haven't formed an opinion on it yet (I want to watch the movie again before I say anything) but the points raised by both 'sides' are very, very good.

Kudos to all involved. :wub2:

[stefaan]

The best post here (so far), IMO, is the one by Reveling John. He dares to question...

Well, let's say... I am always so stunned to see how deep to the bone most americans are indoctrinated... for instance with the idea that nothing is good except capitalism... when they talk about socialism, communism and anything resembling, it's as if they are talking about the devil, no worse... full of hate.

During and after 9-11, our journalists looked up, as much americans as possible, who were visiting europe, or were working here, just to get their view, their opinion, their feelings on what had happened... A remark a lot of them made during the interviews, was "you're so well informed here". With this they meant, our media are not so one-sided as in the US. Our media was looking at things from different angles. We would get more information than they would in the US, etc.

This "one-sidedness" harms the american people. (And I am sad to say, but europe moves in the same direction.) Internet could break it open, give american more possibilities, more views, more angles. If only they would be prepared to put down their colored spectacles and really see what's out there.

Whatever... We all, americans, european, asians... we all will have to change our ways. None of us is right. If you look at the results, you have to see that. And I hope ASAP.
If we are living in some Endtime period, we will have made this end ourselves.

If you agree or don't agree with Zeitgeist I & II ... it doesn't matter. If only it could make you think, make you wiser in some way...

[Zira]

Controlled opposition.Throw out some good information and then promote the totalitarian technocratic society.Naomi Wolf and Glenn Beck are talking about these things in the mainstream and any child knows they are gatekeepers.

[sunnyrap]

This is an interesting thread worth the debate, imo. I just watched Alex Jone's response to Addendum. He made some good points, but a good bit of what he said comes from his well established distrust of almost anyone offering any kind of new solution-system--and validly so. Alex is predisposed to do this because he's created a strong position for himself doing it. But I felt like
this distrust/skepticism is a double edged sword, and he could be throwing out the baby with the bath water with Addendum. I felt that the core concept behind Addendum is valid: service to all over money-power. Translating that correctly is going to be the job, and involve all. Watchdogging decisions running the technology will be very involving. (Isaac Asimov's future visions come to mind).

Any system/solution does not work if there is no intentionality of service to all behind it; and all 'systems' followed blindly will fail a good bit of the time when not supported/checked by personal responsibility. Even staying with the founding father's system had holes in it, because lack of individual responsibility and blind faith in the American system allowed some clever bandits to use our trust in it to hijack it.

Alex seems to want to stay with the original system, minus the elements of The Federal Reserve. But the information on how banking and profit structures work that has been disseminated lately, once everyone is exposed to them and understands it, seems to me to make returning to the profit/free enterprise system almost impossible. Because, according to what I've seen anyway, it ALWAYS leads to inflation and separation of people into haves and have-nots.

His point about Capitalism and Communism being two sides of the same coin is valid also. Communism doesn't really work because someone has to assume control, just like in capitalism. Still the pyramid structure.

It looks to me that we almost need to be freed of the NEED for interdependance for survival, so that we can just join up for the pleasure and stimulation of working on projects together. If there is no survival need to do so, then you are never enslaved. People who enjoy work and accomplishment will still have plenty to do. People who don't needn't get in the way of people who do out of necessity. If plenty can be created for all--no one's coming after someone else's house or stuff... They'll be ignored as uninteresting human beings if they do nothing and don't contribute, so they will quickly find some place to plug in. We are social beings, after all.

Therefore, I don't think Alex vision of people sitting around doing nothing because they don't have to work--therefore being subject to sociopathic behavior is valid, either. It's only valid in the current paradigm.

If you and your fellows have the resources to be out there joyously creating things of interest to them,
and doing whatever you wish is freely available, the array of entertainments we now have will pall very quickly for all but the most immature people, and a desire for new, more exciting frontiers will call, or the intrinsic social instinct will inspire joining some group trying to create something.

I also didn't like Alex' across the board panning of religion. The ancient roots of religion were a training system for teaching universal spiritual concepts and the values--something we must have to advance as a species. How far this training needs to be taken is for better minds than my own. But like any other system unquestioningly followed, it allowed the unscrupulous to take advantage of it. I optimistically believe there will be a point where there is enough spiritual learning absorbed by a critical mass of people that worry about spiritually deformed people doing mischief will evaporate.

There is a Zen aphorism that 'ethics is the best survival'. That's been absolutely reliable in my experience. Unethical behavior eventually leads to the extinction of those who refuse to give it up.

[nivosh]

Raulduke, It's a real pleasure to make this conversation with you.
You really touched my heart with the sincerity and wisdom in your words.


Originally Posted by Raulduke
If you meant this honestly, then, I could not be happier.

i meant it totally, and mean it still.

And now for the matter at hand.


Originally Posted by Raulduke
It seems to me that Zietgiest Addendum dances around the notion (w/o ever addressing it) that in order for their utopia to exist: something very huge has to rock society so hard, as to deconstruct it completely. And then we could begin building this utopia.

I think this notion is pretty much the notion (or the desire) of all of us here.
I personally feel this strongly. it might be a child like desire but i do want a total change, and the destruction of the old.

regarding Zietgiest Addendum, i felt they where talking about a progressed shift (remember the flower that opens up?)
not a one day doom that will change everything we know.
it's like the change in conciseness, 10 years ago i read books on the matter of ego, free will, the power of now, stilling the mind, energy feeling and so on.
I couldn't really understand what i read but i felt a certain truth in it.
today, i can understand (know in the biblical sense) some of those things and as i progress i experience them more and more.
if the change will be too drastic alot of people will not be able to cope with it. that is why spiritual practice is so important.
we need to know ourselves (or at least to know that most of the time we are not ourselves) in order to be ready to awake.


Originally Posted by Raulduke
Free will, I suppose, is a subjective term. You can educate yourself to the best of your abilty in order to make a decision.

I agree completely.
i meant that most of the time we don't have the capacity to have free will.
our mind is full of old paradigms and blockages and our ego self is controlling us.
Most of the people are unaware that they are in the jail of the mind and desires, therefor without a true free will.

I do feel that we are on the same page and i enjoyed elaborating this with you.
i also thank you for improving my English skills (what would i do without the right mouse button dictionary...)

peace and love
Nivosh

[Richard T]

Hello Providence.

We have invested animal bodies. We are extremely susceptible to the dense energies that this kind of body regulate. Civilization, as it stands on this globe, is created to make use of those energies.

A civilization such as ours is based on a mental architecture that is enforced at the psychological level by the values that the cultural context enforces progressively through familial and public education. Those values are solidified by emotions that account for the values, positive or negative. Emotions are therefore the value of the memory of the race.

Does it make more sense now?

Being deprived of sex and money creates great tensions in a psychological person. Psychology associates itself to the energies that inhabit the psychic territory. So, it associates with the animality of its body that is strong in instincts of survival and reproduction, and those instincts tell the psychological entity that it must subdue its environment to survive, in other words that he must dominate, or be dominated.

If the basis for psychology are taken away, and in this case we are talking about the means by which psychology has been trained to react, the power lines that are sex and money, and that there has not been a solid base made ready to replace the illusory psychological persona, the individual is lost.

He is lost because psychology fundamentally powerless on its own. It is not centered on reality, it is in periphery of it. It counts on the memory of his civilization to provide him with the means to survive, psychologically.

There is a sort of internal strength required to support the bringing down of the basis for security that represents a civilization to which psychology identifies. A true identity does not identify to anything else than itself. This is what I mean by being centred. If an individual identifies to his civilization and that this civilization is destroyed, he is left with nothing unless this particular inner strength makes him realize on the spot that he is, outside of the memory of the race, he endures.

It is because man has so little internal strength that he remains stuck with a civilization that is inadequate. And, if he feels it is adequate, it is because he still needs it. And he will always seek to keep it going in time. Because the mental architecture afforded through the values of his race are meant to perpetuate the race, not to make him free.

Does this work?

[weareone]

ok, the first zeitgeist was good, the second was either misinformed or misguided, i feel this is either the powers that be or a genuine error. Anyways you should watch 'the esoteric agenda' on google video its must better, balanced and logical

[Reveling John]

We have invested animal bodies. We are extremely susceptible to the dense energies that this kind of body regulate. Civilization, as it stands on this globe, is created to make use of those energies.


This is quite an insight, Richard. Thank you.

...
If the basis for psychology are taken away, and in this case we are talking about the means by which psychology has been trained to react, the power lines that are sex and money, and that there has not been a solid base made ready to replace the illusory psychological persona, the individual is lost.

He is lost because psychology fundamentally powerless on its own. It is not centered on reality, it is in periphery of it. It counts on the memory of his civilization to provide him with the means to survive, psychologically.

The great thing about this economic crisis is that it provides demonstrable PROOF that people's identities are completely wrapped up in social inventions (money, security, predictability). I have heard even newscasters report that this entire calamity is being driven by fear, because the things that people have thought were *real* and *trustworthy* are being unmasked for what they are: psychological constructs compelled into being through the focus of the mass zeitgeist.

Now look what happens when money looses power because people cease to give power to money: the people are at a loss as to comprehend who they are and what they are doing. We clothe ourselves in the artifacts of society. We cover our feelings with ideas and use those ideas to describe one another.

I am not an idea. You are not an idea.

We see our selves as snapshots of the eternal process of emergence. But we are NOT snapshots.

WE ARE THE PROCESS.

When you play two musical tones simultaneously, there is a harmony that comes into existence, essentially this harmony is a new musical component, not describable in either of the tones; it is the other.

We are instances of the harmony between notes and we are also the space between each of those instances, a kind of hyper-harmony. All of the notes are part of our existence, but there is no one note or combination of notes that can describe what we are. We are the experience that exist between the nodes of the network. And we are the dynamic process of growth that is consistently and progressively increasing in sophistication as groups of interconnected nodes graduate into representations of nodes themselves, profoundly re-imagining the structure of the previous network.

If, in your life, you find that everything is falling apart, then you can rest assured that you are doing what you need to do. You are letting the false mirror shatter into a million pieces, revealing that in the *space* between the pieces, the unrecognised, unnamed abyss, there is the potential for true reflection; True Self-Awareness.

[raulduke]

nivosh,
I would like to thank you for this converation. It has been enlightening.
Please allow me to share what I have learned.

We are unique individuals here, and we have more similarities than differences.
We all dream of the day when our differences are demolished and we can truly begin to evolve.

For now, as I see it, our differences are as follows:

People like my new friend nivosh (hope I'm not being presumptuous), are concerened primarily w/ LOVE. That is a very good thing. The best thing. These people are so very important to what's going on here (earth). They must be promoted and protected at all costs, because they will help people like me to shed all of our useless indoctrinated preconceptions of what being a human being really means. This though, is only likely to be possible after there has been a paradigm shift.

I truly hope that this something like a peaceful renaissance that David Wilcock and others have been explaining, but my motto is: Hope for the very best for all life, but prepare for the absolute worst.

Now for people like me. I will readily admit that in terms of spiritual education and growth, I am somewhat behind the curve here at Avalon. In my estimate though, I still have time.
For now though I have concerned myself w/ what seems to be the more pressing issue: the plans the PTB have in store for the likes of rogues like us and the rest of humanity for that matter.
Some here believe that fear is the opposite of love. I don't believe that to be be the case. Fear can inspire the opposite of love (selfishness/hate) when it goes unchecked. Fear is a human reaction that can benefit us if we can identify the exact source and react w/ understanding.
Unfortunately it is true that fear has been manipulated by the PTB to paralyze us throughout history.
The fear they use is baseless and crafted for specific purposes. It is, as our friendly nieghborhood Thunderbird puts it: F.alse E.vidence A.ppearing R.eal.
If thouroughly researched though we can hone in on the real source of beneficial fear which, as I see it is:

The PTB know that this paradigm shift is a reality and that, while they control the show now, they are losing control. The playing field, so to to speak, will soon be leveled. This is the source of thier fear and I am screaming this to all who will listen: They want to hi-jack the paradigm shift by creating chaos and further dividing/enslaving us.
The price of freedom (right now) is eternal vigilance.

I am so grateful that this forum exists.
This is not the first time here, that I have become very fond of someone that initially, I thought I was at odds with.


peace.

[milk and honey]

And again, what are they complaining about? What are they afraid of?
Is rationally choosing and getting ready for a Sound Spiritual Growth a Dangerous Path?
Isn't gathering and critically examining information( both intuitively and by way of contre-checking); building Sound Communities upon shared views and values and drawing plans in order to move forward, upon Rationality, Faisability and Harmony with Nature and Mother earth the True Essence of Project Avalon?
Isn't Project Avalon about making Fundamental Choice; heartfully embracing what one intuitively feels as an Expression of the New times; accepting the New Paradigm, getting ready for the Shift of Consciousness; care for one another?
Is 'Zeitgeist: Addendum' not about all that?
Just wondering, really.
Maybe 'Zeitgeist: Addendem' is not all about that ^^^ .

As i said before elsewhere here....

Just like the false promises of Hitlers fascists, the Marxist-Lenninist Russians and Chinese communists -- to name just a few -- the schemers always appeal to the dreamers' highest aspirations for a just society. They play the idealists like fiddles because it is they, as unwitting intruments of the schemers, who will pour out their guiless souls to the masses with emotional pleas for wholesale destruction of the old and unmitigated acceptance of the new.

Without a suspicious bone in their bodies (except of the old order) they fail to see or acknowledge even the possibility that we're being set up again in exactly the same way as our grandfathers (and theirs) were in the past. The same empty utopian promises are being offered again with hardly even a change of mask and again, the same pressures are applied by undiscerning idealists who know everything about their own aspirations for humanity but nothing about the nature of the beast that resides within us all.

With no illusions (because they knew they were flawed themselves) the 'founding fathers' of the United States Constitution assumed upfront that people are deeply flawed, greedy, corrupt and corruptible and that central planning (of everything) can only play into the hands of the beast.

There is no possibility at all that a centralised global government with major economic and political power in it's hands, could deliver justice and good governance to the world's people. But there is every reason to suspect that those who are trying to construct one (those who've built the old order by wresting the US Constitution from our gullible hands) are doing everything in their power to misrepresent themselves in our midst in exactly the same way as the fascists and communists did in the 20th century to kick start their own phony people's revolutions.

Once again they will tell us everything we want to hear. They will perfectly describe to us the problem AS WE SEE IT while pretending to be interested in the changes WE want. As always they are "opposing" themselves in order to control the wave of contempt which is building in the mass consciousness and yes, even the wave of hope that is building in the hearts of those breaking free of it. Control of this wave -- by "complete spectrum dominance" as they call it in 'propaganda colleges' -- equals control of the outcome.

If we simply allow the power elite to impersonate ourselves and to dictate the tone and the perameters of the discussion, they'll make mince meat out of us... again. The psychopathic controllers have their sleeves rolled up. They're right in the thick of the alternative media with their smooth, understanding voices. Sometimes they're shrill in their feigned empathy with us. So we need to develop the discernment to read what's behind every concerned smile, every outstreched hand, every overture of understanding for the fix we're in.

If we succeed in this we are through to a future brighter than ever before. If we fail it will not be for the want of communications technology, communication skills and voices in the wilderness urging caution for the wolves in sheeps clothing who, be sure, are preparing a banquet. And we are not invited......as the guests that is.

[Richard T]

WE ARE THE PROCESS.


I concur to this.

We are the process. And the process creates impressions. And psychology clings to the impression as a reflection of his reality. But it is just a glimpse, like you said: a snapshot.
But if the individual thinks of himself as a snapshot to which he identifies, he effectively becomes that snapshot.

Well said Reveling John.

We must also realize that the civilization also is a process. A process meant to support a collective of processes and give this collective a specific controlled environment for a specific means, namely the agenda behind a phase of the process. When the phase is over, it goes on to the next phase. But it remains a process.

Working from a snapshot psychology, the masses evaluate their reality from a snapshot taken within a particular phase of a process, not even in relation with the whole process. And the real identity is the sum of the whole process. Which cannot fit within a snapshot.

The system will collapse but neither will it collapse in the time of the ego nor in relation with an idea projected from a snapshot taken from within a phase soon to be caduc.

The personal process as a whole is extremely intelligent. But the snapshot thinks he is the whole. Then he believes he has a choice.

[Richard T]

ok, the first zeitgeist was good, the second was either misinformed or misguided, i feel this is either the powers that be or a genuine error. Anyways you should watch 'the esoteric agenda' on google video its must better, balanced and logical

The only problem, if we can say it is a problem, that I see with it, is that it is ahead of its time and will prompt people to do moves that will put them in initiation.

So, in a sense, it is preparing the way by giving a small glimpse at what could be.

But it won't change because people wish it to change. It won't change because people have no will yet. And there is a certain dose of pain required for people to develop will.

In the mean time, they are wishful. And they believe that by thinking, they can change the world. Yet, they don't know what thinking is.

An evolved planet has no need for money.

The simple reason being that each individual within an evolved society is a pillar in itself.

Here, on this planet, we have the edifice of civilization and a bunch of people seeking shelter under its roof. All they find for an answer is wishful thinking. And only those who are artful at the use of the energy of evil, the energy behind will, the polarity to intelligence, get their way.

At one point, people will have to integrate will to intelligence and become a pillar of their own. Then, civilization will change.

[RaKaR]

Maybe 'Zeitgeist: Addendem' is not all about that ^^^ .

As i said before elsewhere here....

Just like the false promises of Hitlers fascists, the Marxist-Lenninist Russians and Chinese communists -- to name just a few -- the schemers always appeal to the dreamers' highest aspirations for a just society. They play the idealists like fiddles because it is they, as unwitting intruments of the schemers, who will pour out their guiless souls to the masses with emotional pleas for wholesale destruction of the old and unmitigated acceptance of the new.

Without a suspicious bone in their bodies (except of the old order) they fail to see or acknowledge even the possibility that we're being set up again in exactly the same way as our grandfathers (and theirs) were in the past. The same empty utopian promises are being offered again with hardly even a change of mask and again, the same pressures are applied by undiscerning idealists who know everything about their own aspirations for humanity but nothing about the nature of the beast that resides within us all.

With no illusions (because they knew they were flawed themselves) the 'founding fathers' of the United States Constitution assumed upfront that people are deeply flawed, greedy, corrupt and corruptible and that central planning (of everything) can only play into the hands of the beast.

There is no possibility at all that a centralised global government with major economic and political power in it's hands, could deliver justice and good governance to the world's people. But there is every reason to suspect that those who are trying to construct one (those who've built the old order by wresting the US Constitution from our gullible hands) are doing everything in their power to misrepresent themselves in our midst in exactly the same way as the fascists and communists did in the 20th century to kick start their own phony people's revolutions.

Once again they will tell us everything we want to hear. They will perfectly describe to us the problem AS WE SEE IT while pretending to be interested in the changes WE want. As always they are "opposing" themselves in order to control the wave of contempt which is building in the mass consciousness and yes, even the wave of hope that is building in the hearts of those breaking free of it. Control of this wave -- by "complete spectrum dominance" as they call it in 'propaganda colleges' -- equals control of the outcome.

If we simply allow the power elite to impersonate ourselves and to dictate the tone and the perameters of the discussion, they'll make mince meat out of us... again. The psychopathic controllers have their sleeves rolled up. They're right in the thick of the alternative media with their smooth, understanding voices. Sometimes they're shrill in their feigned empathy with us. So we need to develop the discernment to read what's behind every concerned smile, every outstreched hand, every overture of understanding for the fix we're in.

If we succeed in this we are through to a future brighter than ever before. If we fail it will not be for the want of communications technology, communication skills and voices in the wilderness urging caution for the wolves in sheeps clothing who, be sure, are preparing a banquet. And we are not invited......as the guests that is.


Thanks for your perspective, Member milk and honey.
Hitlers fascists, the Marxist-Leninist Russians and Chinese Communists, as you put it, did indeed promised happiness and a just society to Mankind.
However, i would not 'name just a few' and would add, so did and still do the Free-market Capitalists.
I think that the conlusion to draw here is that all those systems have failed for one or another reason; one earlier than the other and incidentally it is the Free-market Ideology that is NOW onder discussion.

Discernment and wisdom are a great weapon in those troubled but Spiritually highly charged times.

Regards,

RaKaR
www.futureofmankind.co.uk

[Richard T]

It is always the same problem.

Why are people afraid of being lied to? Because they are influenceable.

The future evolution will see the raising of pillars. These pillars will be individuals, not collective animals. And it is on those pillars that the new civilization will be based. It will not be a civilization created to direct the destiny of individuals dumbed down into a mass.

If people are afraid to be screwed, it is because it is possible to screw them, therefore, they will be screwed.

And they will be screwed because they still are capable of believing. A pillar cannot believe. He could not even if he tried. So, he has no problem allowing anyone say anything, because he cannot be threatened by words. Because he gives no psychological values to words. Because he does not implicate himself psychologically in the experience.

That is why I say that it is not time yet. Much must happen first.

Man has too much to lose, psychologically.

So, he will project forms that are in conformity to his desires that in turn are based on the conditioning of his civilization, and he calls that free will. And his desires are in opposition to his reality. So, the shock will be great, because opposition means that quite litterally, in other words his reality moves in a direction that is totally opposite to the wishes of the ego.

This gives the ego a false impression of choice. Finally all choices he likes to contemplate are always escape routes to what his own real self needs. These choices are not from him, they are part of his conditioning.

There are no choices in reality. Reality does not care about wishes. And when reality hits, when there is no choice left, then and only then does the ego do what he is supposed to do and that he postponed until the crisis.

So, the crisis is saint and holy. Because without the crisis there is no movement from a psychology enamored with the positive values of his memory.

When the crisis hits, it is reality that hits. And then the ego has no choice.
If he can support the energy charge of reality, he moves. He does not chooses to move, he moves. If he can't support the energy of reality, as it unfolds in the crisis, he breaks down.

And in a time of crisis that encompasses the whole of humanity, the one who breaks down cannot expect the one who moves to stop and pick him up. Because he has no choice but to move.

People have a hard time enduring the little stress of their personal lives. What will they do when it is the Earth itself that shakes under their feet?

People must start creating force fields around their mental centre to not be affected psychologically by worlds events and keep a clear mind when faced with the crisis. This is what people must do. When the crisis hits, if they have the internal strength, they will move and do what they are supposed to do. If not, they will follow whatever flow of panic or others' movements that will happen around them. They will not lead their destiny, they will still seek choices.

Free will is the illusion of those choices that are given him as tests of his intelligence to eventually bring him to develop will in the evil of the crisis, in the strong opposition of life against is search for peace.

To be free is to be in perfect accord with one's own energy movement. It is not a question of choices, it is a question of being real. Choices are red herrings. In the end, there is one thing to do. Not what the ego wants to do but what he must do.

And all this question of free will has always kept him away from what he must do, keeping him into such a slow evolutionary pace that he was forced to stick with a life condition that is equivalent to universal hell and still believe that this is normal.

The ego can rationalize ad infinitum.

Everything is known. And if everything is known, it is clear that there is no choice.

[unloadedgunn]

I like your observations, Richard T. You hit the nail on the head, in my opinion. The huge paradigm shift is so overwhelming that people are fighting it. There is no doubt any longer in anyones' mind (I hope) that the current "system" is broken, and that it must change totally in order for anything like peace, prosperity, and equality to be more than just empty words or distant memories. To give you an idea of most peoples' comfort level a thread in which a person asked effectively; "What am I holding in my hand? Try to guess." receives 5 pages of replies/guesses. I typed a serious post announcing a meeting in real time...yes this means face to face folks! Guess how many people are willing to more than cyber-babble about the coming times ahead? Last count, zero. Betcha can't guess what I'm thinking right now?!?

[Richard T]

The karma of the planet must be done with.

[unloadedgunn]

I agree Richard. WE, meaning humanity in general might have a lot to atone for. This is why all this "airy fairy" stuff about positive intention winning the day is a gross oversimplification. Be positive AND realize you had better start storing food, creating community, bartering, building root cellars, familiarizing yourself with firearms, etc. Show me one peaceful passive protest which ever elicited lasting substantial gains for mankind, and I will show you another media fabrication.

[Ashatav]

Touching the economic system...

The rorum novarum enciclic (that's it's name on english?) says that the Need is the indicator of what you must have. If any have needs of your car, can have it, and that's obiously is screwed up.

In southafrica if you go to vacation and when you return to your house you house are occupied you Cannot kick the occupant out.

That's because that the source of the NWO thing is actually the Vatican.

The illuminati are a group started by Ignatius as part of the couterreform to take over the political power using several conductual psicological technics.

In the economic side they started by they Rothchilds (the vativan bankers) the soviet union and communism.

I don't remember if they have something to do with capitalism But the ideology of them are.

Tesis
Antisesis
=
Syntesis

And that's what they want to do with this 2 opossite economical systems.

As a Syntesis, a middle one who is based on the idea of need.

Search on this!

Cheers!

[Richard T]

Just try and imagine the karma against woman, the karma against children, the karma against animals, the karma against the races, the karma against the weak, the karma against domination, the karma against lies and manipulations, the karma against the planet.

All these are imprints upon which life plans are built to adjust those energies over time within the fabric of the soul. But now, we are at the end of a cycle, and another cycle, totally different in its purpose must be started.

This means that all the material that is used to support a form of life plan, at the personal as well as the collective level by extension, has to be cleared first. Otherwise, you would just have another version of the same thing.

So, the karma of humanity must be burned. And that does not get done with fluff.

[tandiwe]

Yeah you know Alex Jones normally winds me up bcause he is SO confrontational, his is SO emotional inhis verbiage. BUT he has got some very good points!!!!

[Fuglybugger]

I did like the ZG addendum. I am inspired to share this one more than most other stuff. It brought some sort of meaning to my search, though I'm just a human being... helping me to become.

There are other places to become human though.. some at the woodpile, just by stacking wood. I prefer fishing though, with a cigar and a flask.

I think I'm on to more relaxing stuff after having stocked my pantry and woodpile, taking out money from the bank and making my parents tiss their pantries. At least they too have a plenty of flour though.

Much good stuff here in this thread and elsewhere...

I know that our present "reality" won't work (thank you ZG addendum folks). Been taught that stuff since 5th grade. Most know it. Not much longer before the stuff hits the fan? My generation knows it. Period. Given.

What they don't know is that we deserve better as beings. Get it. Somebody has to get it out. Thank you Project Avalon and others like David Wilcock for that. Should I continue to help get it out is the question for me.

(Thanks Henry D, I followed your breadcrumbs.)

I say Flush it. Flush the ties with the banksters and kiss my hairy ***... with as much compassion as possible. Take what I have in my 401k as a gift for my freedom. That is (what I sense) what's going on whether I like it or not. I choose to embrace it. I could resist it. It is our/your/my choice.

I recognize which way the river flows. I fish with my bait going downstream. I know how to catch fish. I embrace the flow. I know.

Either our Senators are really smart, or they are really, really stupid. Maybe they are allowing the stream to take it's course by storm.
We all knew it. Just never thought it would come through fake voting machines.

I allow the enema flush along with it's control and it's trappings... rather than try to trap as much as I can while it happens. The ongoing flush allows me to create anew with clarity. Otherwise I'd spend my time contemplating and spying on the trappings (corn, gum weenies, swallowed marbles, etc.).

I prepare for the transition... and realize that I'll (we'll) be better for it after all. My philosophy is to take care, and take care of my neighbor. I'll soon be clean, helping others get along with what I've stored for them and my family. We all live in this yellow submarine, you know.

I am. You are. We can.

With purpose... with intention.

It's all good. Better even.

It's just a ride. I remember that. I am not afraid.

My ride ends with me in charge of me. You with you. With compassion. We'll all be celebrating.

I'll pop the first cork if I'm the one with the first bottle standing. Celebrating all of us. Thank you for being part of me too.

Cheers.

Back to the woodpile and a bit of fishing.

[8080028]

hi all just reading your comments on this film with interest.
If I may add my two cents worth.
I think Addendum as with all the other info we are all trawling through has its good and bad points, of course. Nobody out making these info pieces is EVER going to make a piece that everyone agrees with, that nails the issues exactly correctly and offers a solution perfect in presentation and possibility of success.
Its impossible. The issues are too many and too complex.

The problem we are discussing on Avalon and elsewhere is no less than the complete remake of our society. Not because it wouldn't be a bad idea and might be nice, but because it will have to change, its changing already, and it will change with or without our input. We have to get to grips with a system that is irreparably broken and try to point it in a better direction.

Jaques Fresco says in the film that his way isn't perfect, its just a lot better.
Exactly.


I forwarded the link to this film to everyone I know for two main reasons. Firstly because it exposes the banking fraud. As a start point for the uninitiated this is a very good one, especially as the proof of it is all over the news and they can see that although it sounds bizarre that the whole world could be taken for a ride by the bankers, its true. And it affects them, so they get interested. I've put people onto films like The Money Masters and Money as debt before but this one seems to be having more success.
Secondly, at the end it offers valuable solutions in terms as plain as can be.
Expose the fraud, boycott the banks who are doing this and don't join the military.

I don't believe this is a PTB disinfo piece because they give this advice. No matter what plans the PTB have, the monetary system is the means of control, and exposing this and moving to stop it functioning can only be good for us and bad for them.

The ideas and vision of the Venus project are just that, Ideas and Visions. They are not finished products, only attempts to offer an alternative. I personally don't like the look of their buildings, they lack taste. So should I go off on a diatribe about how they want to make us all live in Future-commie housing blocks and take away our free will? No.
They are showing that all is not doom and gloom, that there are other ways to do this living-on-planet-Earth thing.

A total switch from our current setup to a money-less resource based economy would be very difficult and I don't know if it would even work. Surely we would need some money to operate. But the current system where profit is the biggest objective has quite obviously been wrong and must be changed.

The concept of abundance and the mechanisation of any work that can be mechanised is very attractive, and if people had the increased leisure time this would provide to further their pursuits and all the aspects of human existence that enrich us creatively, artistically, intellectually and spiritually how could that possibly be bad? At the very least its 'just a lot better'.

All work can never be mechanised, humans are needed to do many things. And lots of people do enjoy their work, of course they do. Its this left/right paradigm thing cropping up yet again. its either one thing or the other. people work or they dont, machines do it. Its not that simple.
The problem with working and the attraction with 'doing away with work', is not the 'doing away with work' at all. Its doing away with HAVING to work.
having to pay the bills, and make ends meet, and work 40 hours, and hire child minders, and work night shifts, and get two weeks holidays a year.

Thats the point. We are slaves, and we should not be.

I have a conversation nearly every day with my friends at work talking about what we could do and invent and explore and perfect if only we had the free time.

If humanity had the free time to follow their interests, while at the same time the major problems of our societies in the areas of crime and anti social behaviour were to start to be a thing of the past because the poverty that drives most of them is fixed, then imagine what would happen?

For me that is the point of this film. People nowadays have a deficit of hope and don't see a way out and this film offers a suggestion, not a manifesto.

Also a point worth noting is that it came out at just about the peak of the doom and gloom on this forum over Oct 7th.

I'm not saying the doom and gloom is unjustified, its not, but personally addendum cheered me up a bit and was therefore gold.

[nivosh]

This thread has SO many great people in it i want to hug you all!!!

Raulduke, i consider you as my friend too, as well as all of you.

one thing that cought my eye:


quote from 'unloadedgunn':
Show me one peaceful passive protest which ever elicited lasting substantial gains for mankind, and I will show you another media fabrication.
what about Gandhi?

Richard T. man, you are amazing!
very clear presentation of difficult stuff!
Thank you all!

I have hope,
I am love,
I believe,
We are one.

[nivosh]

On that note, and maybe on a different thread.

can somebody (Richard T maybe?) please make a list of some of the best eye opening movies that can be seen through the Internet?

movies that show the true agenda, the true banking system etc'...

thank you.

[peacelovinman]

Just a short note to say thank you to everybody for the debate, thoughts and comments. Just for the record, when I posted this entitled "for the sake of balance", I am not implying that I thought the arguement was balanced, I meant it to serve as an example of an alternative view to The Venus Project.

This film excited me and gave me hope. Personally, a technocratic society is not the way I would want to go. Machines are still fictional creations and I cannot picture myself living in an ocean city, growing my food using hydoponics. I am also sceptical of any "solution" that seems to imply that the world is overpopulated (as Fresco's writings seem to). This is a myth as can be clearly shown by simple maths.

The idea that gives me the most hope is proposed by Vladimir Megre in the "Ringing Cedars" series of books (www.ringingcedars.com). To those that have read my posts before, you will know I mention this guy a lot; the reason is that I'm passionate about the idea, so please forgive me?

[milk and honey]

Thanks for your perspective, Member milk and honey.
Hitlers fascists, the Marxist-Leninist Russians and Chinese Communists, as you put it, did indeed promised happiness and a just society to Mankind.
However, i would not 'name just a few' and would add, so did and still do the Free-market Capitalists.
RaKaR, you are making my point. That's exactly why i used the simile of "Hitler's fascists, and Marxist-Lenninist Russians and Chinese communists". I am suggesting that the current pusch for utopia by (propaganda agents of) the 'power elite' who govern the USA, is nothing more than the same old trick from the same old dog with a slightly different mask. With only a slightly new (age) lexicon the mask looks and sounds the same to me.
I think that the conlusion to draw here is that all those systems have failed for one or another reason; one earlier than the other
From our perspective, those systems were NOT set up to succeed. From their perspective, their idea of success (a phony people's revolution) was a failure from the start. They very successfully ingratiated themselves with the citizens by making (knowingly) false promises of utopia. They certainly were not well motivated 'great ideas' which simply failed. They were scams from the outset, concieved by 'old money'. And now? There is nothing new under the sun. At least it has us talking about it though.

... and incidentally it is the Free-market Ideology that is NOW onder discussion.
Incidently, nothing could be clearer. But even that contention is a straw man constructed by the 'power elite's "Zeitgeist: Addendum". There is no "free-market" operating in the USA and other economies under 'elite' control. It is a centrally planned, highly corrupt mockery of the "free-market" principle. The "free-market" principle has been replaced at the big end of town by "monopoly-cartelism" with only the veneer of freedom and the crumbs from the cartel's table left to the people.

None of this means that i am unwilling to parse so called 'utopian' ideas. But not from the 'Zeitgeist' crew. Zeig Heil!

[milk and honey]

Adam Smith in his book "The Wealth of Nations" in 1776. Capitalists favor a system of free enterprise which means the government should NOT interfere in the economy - that the laws of supply and demand will make sure that the economy runs most efficiently in meeting people's needs.
And this of course exposes the duplicity of monopoly cartelist capitalists.

They supposedly favour non-intervention by government regulatory agencies yet they have utterly hijacked the entire machinery of government in order to grant themselves privileges and to neuter those regulatory agencies. This is certainly NOT a system of "free enterprise".

Thankyou LiquidSwordz for posting Adam Smith's quote. It allows me to point out the lastest attempt by the 'power elite' (through 'Zeitgeist' this time) to demolish the last vestiges of "free enterprise" by pretending that such a system (which we haven't actually got) is responsible for society's ills.

True free enterprise, properly regulated under law, would solve a lot of the current problems and so would an honest money system. Humanity, motivated as it is, is simply not ready for a system without a monetary medium of exchange. In the interim, a lot of changes could be made to the current system to reclaim our economic power from the fascist monolith that is strangling America to death.

[stefaan]

On that note, and maybe on a different thread.

can somebody (Richard T maybe?) please make a list of some of the best eye opening movies that can be seen through the Internet?

movies that show the true agenda, the true banking system etc'...

thank you.

On the Project Camelot Forum there is a section Books, Videos, Articles, etc.
About the true banking system you'll find there, one of the best IMO, The Money Masters (http://www.projectavalon.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1280)

[Bill Ryan]

To NASA LIES:

This is a publicly readable personal message to you - so to speak.

You have done nothing (yet) to warrant being banned. But I personally find your energy unpleasant and so I'd be grateful if you would leave this forum.

This is not a ban. It's a personal request to take your energy elsewhere where it may be appreciated by more people, more attuned to wherever it is that you are at.

With best wishes, Bill

[RaKaR]

Well said, Bill.

Peace and Wisdom.

RaKaR
www.futureofmankind.co.uk

[Mystica]

I watched some of this movie.

Recognizing propaganda, I turned it off.

[Citizen Zeitgeist]

For anybody who believes that ZEITGEIST: ADDENDUM is advocating communist principles, here are the ten planks of the Cummunist Manifesto, along with my own critical analysis of the frenzied allegations made against both the filmmakers and Project Venus.

1. Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes.

This is what is being used by critics of the film to discredit its philosophical essence, but at no point does anybody in the documentary call for the abolition of all property. What they do advocate however, is common ownership of the natural resources of the planet we share and a world without elitism.

2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.

Since the film calls for the abolition of money, this would be virtually impossible to implement in such a set of circumstances. However, this system has already been imposed upon every nation, enslaved by debts that can never be repaid.

3. Abolition of all rights of inheritance.

At no point in the film does anybody advocate this policy.

4. Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels.

Since the filmmakers and Project Venus would be targets of this order, it is already self-evidently irrelevant to this discussion.

5. Centralization of credit in the banks of the state, by means of a national bank with state capital and an exclusive monopoly.

The abolition of money would necessitate the abolition of the banking industry, therefore the accusation that the filmmakers advocate this cannot be sustained. Nevertheless, what we are currently witnessing across the world is state monopoly of the high street banks and mortgage companies, pure and simple.

6. Centralization of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the state.

This has already been done by the bankers and their puppet governments right across the globe and is at no point advocated by the filmmakers.

7. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the state; the bringing into cultivation of waste lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.

Western governments, who are secretly controlled by the international banksters, are currently implementing these policies by taking ownership of the commercial banking industry and all the property and assets contained within it, while the privately-owned central banks are already synonymous with the state.

8. Equal obligation of all to work. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture.

Since the fimmakers predict that technology can and should replace the vast majorty of the human labour force, for the greatest benefit of all, this is both irrelevant to the discussion and the means by which the Nazis almost completely eradicated unemployment from 1933-36.

9. Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of all the distinction between town and country by a more equable distribution of the populace over the country.

Commonly known as global monopolisation of the food industry and urbanisation of the rural heartlands. This is in no way alluded to or implied by any of the values, opinions and beliefs expressed in the film.

10. Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children's factory labor in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production, etc.

I suspect most of the people on this forum would agree with one or two of these policies. The makers of the film advocate education that empowers our children with knowledge and technical ability, rather than the mandatory system that we have now, which coerces young people into becoming compliant wage-slaves who never question what they are told by established authority.

With respect to the comments of the much-admired Mr Griffin, I can only imagine that he has misconstrued the filmmakers' philosophy, or that he is too long in the tooth to change his fundamental beliefs about why the corrupt system doesn't work. Otherwise, I find it difficult to imagine how he could aim so wide of the mark in his accusation of an obvious communist agenda.

As for the genuinely disappointing Mr Jones, he does himself more discredit than his ever-increasing number of critics could ever hope to sustain every time he advocates violent revolution and free market capitalism, while raking in advertising revenue by ramping up the fear factor to the max. If the best solution to our problems he can offer is to give everybody a bible and a gun, it is time for the truth movement to tune out of his frequency.

Peace, freedom, love and light,

Z
http://www.freetheplanet.info

[stefaan]

For anybody who believes that ZEITGEIST: ADDENDUM is advocating communist principles, here are the ten planks of the Cummunist Manifesto, along with my own critical analysis of the frenzied allegations made against both the filmmakers and Project Venus.
...


You're totally right.
However, to repeat myself... Some here (a lot in fact) are indoctrinated with the idea that : communism equals bad. It's spooned in from birth on. When they talk about communism, they talk about anything but communism, not having any clue of what communism is all about. They cannot help it. It's like a defect juke boxe: if you push that button, you get this song, if you push another button, you get the same song, etc...
The top... corporations, banks... toke over media, schools... more than a century ago, and fed the people the same lies, over and over again. When the "communist treat" came along, just another new lie, amongst the other lies, couldn't harm, could it?
I don't know if it's not too late for all those indoctrinated people, but it would be nice if they could learn communism is as bad as capitalism, or capitalism is as bad as communism. We will have to find something new, something better. Maybe something between both (socialism?). Or something completely different (project Venus?)

[Citizen Zeitgeist]

The most enduring political misconception of the 20th century was/is the myth of the left-right paradigm. Whether we are talking about Socialism, Capitalism, Corporatism, Communism or Fascism, the banksters, the monied aristocracy and the Vatican are able to entend or consolidate their power and wealth. Anybody who is defending any kind of monetary system is either guided by mypoic thinking, limited research and social programming, or hidden agendas and self-interest.

Localised, self-sufficient, sustainable communities built upon the ideological foundations of individual responsibility and mutual cooperation will bring freedom, peace and unprecedented prosperity for all humanity on Planet Earth. However, this will not be possible without the abolition of the monetary systems that perpetuate violence and inequality, the life-blood of the Capitalist-Communist-Financial-International.

[Richard T]

Anybody who is defending any kind of monetary system is either guided by mypoic thinking, limited research and social programming, or hidden agendas and self-interest.


Thoughts are always myopic. They reflect on memory.
And since the beginning of this cycle, all man has known was a trading system based on currency.

So it is not surprising.

Leaving what you know to enter the field of inexperience, without the support of experimented guarantees, is not something humanity is willing to do short of having no choice.

Even those who hope for such a possibility will still wait for someone else to establish solid foundations before they agree to trade their condition for another one.

People want proof. They need to be secured with the form. Because the mind is trapped in the form. And they will trade forms if they see a potential gain for them.

You cannot change the system without the individuals changing themselves. Otherwise, it will just be another version of the same. People will still seek leaders to show them the way. They will look for a model that suits them. They will perpetuate their ancient consciousness that needs support from the form. And this cannot be.

The system is there to effectively maintain a lock on the ancient psychology. To maintain the mind in check in a feeling of powerlessness. And I do not believe that the implementation of a new system will change man at a fundamental level. Man will adapt to it but will remain attached to it, seeking his security in the system. He will not have evolved, he will have adapted from the same psychological foundation. The form will mold the psychology again and the individual will remain dependant from the form.

A fundamental revolution is required within man himself, rather than around the form of his civilization. In the past, revolutions affected the form used by civilization, tomorrow the mind will be the seat of a permanent state of internal revolution. And the form of his civilization will be constantly adjusted to the internal state of consciousness rather then the other way around, as it has been historically.

Without this total change in man, without the death of psychology, there cannot be the emerging of a new paradigm for that man. The foundation for a new level of energy cannot be built on top of the foundation of the ancient energy.

Ancient psychology cannot project something that is totally new, because psychology always reflects on its memory. So it extrapolates forms that agree with it.

What must be is something totally new that cannot be before the old has been ejected.

And the old is within man himself.

[peacelovinman]

The most enduring political misconception of the 20th century was/is the myth of the left-right paradigm. Whether we are talking about Socialism, Capitalism, Corporatism, Communism or Fascism, the banksters, the monied aristocracy and the Vatican are able to entend or consolidate their power and wealth. Anybody who is defending any kind of monetary system is either guided by mypoic thinking, limited research and social programming, or hidden agendas and self-interest.

Localised, self-sufficient, sustainable communities built upon the ideological foundations of individual responsibility and mutual cooperation will bring freedom, peace and unprecedented prosperity for all humanity on Planet Earth. However, this will not be possible without the abolition of the monetary systems that perpetuate violence and inequality, the life-blood of the Capitalist-Communist-Financial-International.

I would agree with this, apart from your comment on those folks who defend a monetary system. Your point about all socio-political "isms" being the same is what Griffin has been telling people for years.

Griffin is someone I respect because he says what he honestly believes and has done the research to back it up (see www.freedom-force.org). However, I don't agree with everything he says.

Your point about communities is spot on, I believe. I also agree with you about the monetary system - some may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one (as someone once said!).

[Richard T]

It is unfortunate that so many intelligent men get caught with ideologies.

Ideology makes both blind and deaf. people don't talk, they argue. And they end up the mouth piece of an ideology that controls them. And no man should be controlled by an ideology.

An ideology is as much a rape of intelligence than death is an insult to intelligence.

[d. macaluso]

A fundamental revolution is required within man himself, rather than around the form of his civilization. In the past, revolutions affected the form used by civilization, tomorrow the mind will be the seat of a permanent state of internal revolution. And the form of his civilization will be constantly adjusted to the internal state of consciousness rather then the other way around, as it has been historically.

Without this total change in man, without the death of psychology, there cannot be the emerging of a new paradigm for that man. The foundation for a new level of energy cannot be built on top of the foundation of the ancient energy.

Ancient psychology cannot project something that is totally new, because psychology always reflects on its memory. So it extrapolates forms that agree with it.

What must be is something totally new that cannot be before the old has been ejected.

And the old is within man himself.

http://www.davidmacaluso.com/images/large/david.jpg

Your words resound, Richard T.

[martian31v]

hi all. i have to disagree with richard t on his latest point "you cannot change the system without the individuals changing themselves", especially relative to the zeitgeist position.

you cannot separate the individual from the system, nor the system from the individual. they exist symbiotically. the system emerges from the individual, while the individual evolves from the system. we are all products of the system(s) we create. thus, (we) individuals will/do create systems, which will inevitably change ourselves as individuals. i believe this is the central argument in the zeitgeist addendum, which is sound and valid.

[Richard T]

This is why people have no identity and this lack of identity makes them seek to identify to forms that gives them promises of security.

When people have an actual identity, they can't be influenced. They are masters of their personal destiny. In the mean time, they take free will as the consequence of being influenced and in the future they will be free.

If people are molded by society, it is no surprise that we have such a sad situation. Their consciousness is not based on the reality of their source, it is based on the experimental conditions of the planet.

[martian31v]

This is why people have no identity and this lack of identity makes them seek to identify to forms that gives them promises of security.

When people have an actual identity, they can't be influenced. They are masters of their personal destiny. In the mean time, they take free will as the consequence of being influenced and in the future they will be free.

If people are molded by society, it is no surprise that we have such a sad situation. Their consciousness is not based on the reality of their source, it is based on the experimental conditions of the planet.

hi richard. i respectfully disagree with your understanding of personal identity. we all have actual identities to some degree, and that identity is always being influenced by our surroundings. to maintain a fixed identity at this point in our reality is extremely shortsighted. it ignores a massive amount of information/change that is constantly streaming in. people are molded by society, and people mold society. again, we do exist symbiotically with our environment and the systems or social structures we create. i don't see that as a sad or negative relationship. it is an evolutionary relationship that allows for the individual to co-create its reality. and this relationship does allow for consciousness to be connected to an absolute or fixed source. there is nothing in this perspective of identity that would necessarily disconnect us with source. hope to hear back, its been nice communicating with you. martian31v :)

[Richard T]

Hey martian31v, that's perfect. The idea is not to agree but to see clearly in the end, which requires creative opposition.

If you consider that the reality of man does not have its origin in matter, that this origin decided to descend in this dense plane of reality. If you consider that this is the actual identity behind consciousness and that being on an experimental planet the conditions of infusion in matte forced a loss of consciousness. If you consider that the soul, that extraordinary memory accumulated as it went along in its ancient experience must at one point be recuperated by the original identity. You might then consider that psychology, its attachement to memory, is simply a temporary artifact of the limit imposed on the soul.

The original identity of the individual could not have penetrated matter directly itself. Its energy requiring extremely advanced and refined force fields, what we refer to as subtle bodies. In order to create those bodies, the light seed that was sent as the central atom of the soul ended up becoming attached, or fused, to what became cellular consciousness accross the aeons of cellular evolution. And it lost the absolute consciousness of its origin, an origin that already is located in a world that has access to all the information concerning all of the universal sciences that are repertoriated, not just at the astral level and the mental level, but even beyond those layers of reality, layers that even those lovely alien visitors cannot directly access.

Symbology is a consequence of a science manipulated by what is called the spirits of the form. They create forms to contain programs that are perceived as symbols in their interpretation by psychology, but in reality those symbols contain an energy that can be used to manipulate the organization of worlds that evolve in the astral, and that includes the soul as a progressive intelligence.

But the spirit is not a progressive intelligence. It is a creative intelligence. But so long as we are captive of the soul as a vehicle, we are englobed by the soul function that is to accumulate experience to adjust its science of cellular consciousness and this is perceived, at the level of the ego, as memory, a memory upon which it is forced to reflect because the full reality of its origin lies beyond the hull of that vehicle.

People talk of a new paradigm.

What I am saying is that a new paradigm cannot be made of the old paradigm.

And the historical function of rationalized comparative knowledge, based on reflection on the memory of the experience, as much as it is important today will be of no value tomorrow.

I have to run for now.

Take care.

[martian31v]

[What I am saying is that a new paradigm cannot be made of the old paradigm.]


can a new paradigm emerge from the old?

[Richard T]

[What I am saying is that a new paradigm cannot be made of the old paradigm.]


can a new paradigm emerge from the old?

The old paradigm, the one that is currently nearing the end of its time, was based on the movement of light descending in the dense zones of the material universe. As it descended, it had to do it using the laws of matter, and was segregated to the astral laws of psychology. This is what we called devolution.

The new paradigm. will be based on the reversal of that movement and even though the material body will remain subjected to the laws of matter, the psychic entity will be returned to the laws of the systemic worlds, what people refer to the laws of light, what we will call evolution.

Those laws, those of the astral and those of light, are in total opposition. They do not belong to one another. This implies that the new paradigm cannot emerge on the basis of the old one, but that the energy that was spent in the experience, isolated in a material capsule, made ignorant of the science of its consciousness, miust be transmutated, not just transformed using the same material, but totally transmutated into a radically new quality. It must be transmutated from dark to light.

What was learned and was useful during the devolutive experience will not be useful then. Not because what was learned had no purpose, but because it cannot be useful for a consciousness that does not abide by the laws that what was learned belonged any more.

What was planetary in nature will revert to its cosmic identity.

To give an idea, fear has been intrinsically tied to the human experience. In order to face the materialization of his reality, he will have had to eliminate all fear. Otherwise, he would be so shocked by the extraordinary influx of science that comes from his own reality on another plane than that of his devolutive experience, that he would implode and his planetary mind would be destroyed. So there is a time necessary and fear must first be erradicated.

So, as much as fear appeared a natural part of human consciousness, even though fear is not psychological but psychically induced but was psychologically identified to, as much will fear be alien to the new consciousness.

As much as ignorance forced humanity to learn based on empirical methods, as much will he be infused with a science that is already part of the quality of his own reality and rather than learning, he will increase the rate of vibration of his consciousness to become more and more capable of absorbing higher levels of energies and sciences.

The new man, as an individual will have no bearing whatsoever to the ancient collective humanity, except for the appearance of his material body, a body whose evolution and construction is now completed.

So, the answer I would give to this question is no, the new paradigm cannot sprout from the old.