Poor Gary Mckinnon

[shaundelear]

I would like to show some support for poor Gary.
This poor guy has been thoughily hung out to dry.
Yes he broached the NASA networks but how easily?
The law has failed to protect him after he has complied to all the conditions they gave him.
They extridited him on dodgy laws that UK citizens are not aware of.
America can accuse a UK citizen and Britain just hands them over?
They verbaly tried to trick him .
Now they want to give him just under 100years because he highlighted thier failings.
Even the European court stitched him up.
Seem to remember in the interview Kerry bringing up the subject-
"what if they cant get a hold of you ?"
On reflection I'd bet he'd rather have taken Kerry up on that and just dissapeared.
But no he stood tall did the right thing and they are going to crucify him .
I think his trial will be very interesting hes been on TV/news and basically admited it and then got out the very stuff that they would hide from us,
How he did it, how easy it was and what he was looking for.
For this I believe they are making him pay.He made a fool of them.
You've just got to love his bottle -very UK.
Good luck Gary my heart goes out to you.

[King Lear]

I cannot believe how slavish the UK and EU is to the US Goverment.
The USA does not sign any treaty that would lead to extradition of any of their citizens, especially soldiers and polticians.

Otherwise the whole Bush Administration would sit now or from next year on in Den Haag next to Karadzic.

SHAME on the EU, giving protest notes to Russia or China bacause of less Democracy but handing over citizen to a criminal Administration and a even worser prison system!:mad3:

Unbeliveable that they claim every computer Gary entered shall be worth $5,000 and that he even damaged every computer he entered, ridiculous.

But even more ridiculous is that they want to send him to Guantanmo for this minor crime.

What does the US Goverment fear so much, as far as I know Gary couldnt save any picture? Perhaps they only want him to improve their systems and then let him go, I very much hope so for him.



http://img393.imageshack.us/img393/3462/breakthechainsfreegarygc4.png (http://imageshack.us)

[Bill Ryan]

Hi, KL:

That is one great graphic.

May we send this to him? We're in close touch. We'd invite him to post here, but he's legally prohibited from using a computer.

As you may have read on Camelot, we've been working behind the scenes to organize him a US lawyer, and also passing on other information that might help.

You may also know that Dan Burisch and Marci McDowell have gone on record to say that they will be willing to be called to the witness box under penalty of perjury to state what they know about the secret space program. This is pretty huge... more on this later.

Very best, Bill

[peacelovinman]

Please pass on my support to Gary. Be very interesting to hear Burisch's and McDowell's testimony if the case did get to trial; however, I fear the USA administration would more likely lock Gary up and throw away the key.

We here in the UK need to get on to that worm Milliband and create as much merry hell as possible.

[TheGhost]

Bill: didn't Gordon Novel offer help? I think it is time that Gary took up Gordon's offer!

[mikey]

It is disgusting how Gary is being treated when looking at the whole thing...

I have a feeling we havent heard the end of Gary and his fight for justice..and ultimately our fight for justice with him. This could well open a tin of very squiggily worms and i for one want for nothing else!

Indeed Bill is right, great graphic King Lear...

peace

bananaman

[King Lear]

Hi, KL:

That is one great graphic.

May we send this to him? We're in close touch. We'd invite him to post here, but he's legally prohibited from using a computer.

As you may have read on Camelot, we've been working behind the scenes to organize him a US lawyer, and also passing on other information that might help.

You may also know that Dan Burisch and Marci McDowell have gone on record to say that they will be willing to be called to the witness box under penalty of perjury to state what they know about the secret space program. This is pretty huge... more on this later.

Very best, Bill


I'm very appreciated:biggrin2:of course you can use and send it Bill!
That's why I posted it here.

I wish him all the best and I'm curious what will come out.



Also thanks to bananaman

[uniconr]

the odds are that the 'trial' will be closed court, you know, matter of national security, no media..

[Free-UFO-Videos]

I support Disclosure and truth about outer space matters.
And I like Gary's personality.
And I would never want to hurt the guy.

But hacking into NASA computers is not the way.
I don't break the law to find out about extraterrestrials and UFOs.

He should have done what Project Camelot did.
Or he should have made dozens of UFO forums
and UFO websites like friends and I did.

We know what is happening on Earth and in Space.
And we didn't commit a crime to learn.

If I owned Area51, I would sentence him in the USA,
put him in jail, then move him to a special jail with a special jail cell
with comforts, a computer, broadband, and nice food, and be friends
with him. Not as a slave, but very good team work, care, respect,
and together do what Gary wanted ... hack (bad dudes) and study
outer space matters.

For the good of all Humanity! :trumpet:

:original:


_______________________________________________

[Jacqui D]

What gary did was very silly, but you get so sick of all this ufo info being hidden from you i can understand in a way why he did it.
He was blunt with his findings and pushed his luck i feel continuing to hack computors when he was caught a few times.
I really feel for the guy, i agree the whole ufo saga needs to be known to the public if it wasn't for people like Gary all us guys would be known as nutters!

I hope Dan Burich keeps his promise and helps this guy he certainly needs it.
Great picture by the way King Lear!!:thumb_yello:

[rustanddust]

I hope all goes well with Gary. thank you for keeping us updated on his situation.

[Theresa]

Lets pray for him, like seriously, that he be freed completely and that all those who seek to imprison him be simply removed from interference...PERIOD.

I declare, in the name of the Christ within us all, that Gary is now completely free of all interference and that all involved in his experience are totally changing their hearts and minds to allow him to walk, and rather than fight him, want to actually work with him. Those who work with him are those who want to see change-his energy influences and totally begins to shift the consciousness within these organizations. It is so, in the name of the source of all that is all~

~Peace Reigns on Earth~OM AH HUM~

[linkes]

love the graphic pic of Garry breaking out,

brilliant!

I think we just got to try and be as positive as possible for garry and hoepfully things will eventually sort themselves out.

I suppose easy things to say when your not the one being extradited

Peace and blessings
Linkes

[Zelphael]

I feel bad for him. I had work the day the protest was on in the city, but it looks like it didn't do much good :(

He is being made an example of. Thanks to Bill and Kerry for their ongoing support in this issue.

[Antaletriangle]

It appears to be a little obvious to me that the U.S. black ops. are feeling some heat here to react in this way over Gary.Regarding the U.K. legal system it stinks!Just hand one of our citizens over freely to the U.S. for this knowing what could/prob. will happen to him!!??It's disgusting;he was trying to open up free enegy to the world as well as wanting to know some answers as we all do on here!

[murnut]

I support Disclosure and truth about outer space matters.
And I like Gary's personality.
And I would never want to hurt the guy.

But hacking into NASA computers is not the way.
I don't break the law to find out about extraterrestrials and UFOs.

He should have done what Project Camelot did.
Or he should have made dozens of UFO forums
and UFO websites like friends and I did.

We know what is happening on Earth and in Space.
And we didn't commit a crime to learn.

If I owned Area51, I would sentence him in the USA,
put him in jail, then move him to a special jail with a special jail cell
with comforts, a computer, broadband, and nice food, and be friends
with him. Not as a slave, but very good team work, care, respect,
and together do what Gary wanted ... hack (bad dudes) and study
outer space matters.

For the good of all Humanity! :trumpet:

:original:


_______________________________________________

I agree

[murnut]

Would it be fair to say, Gary has attracted his current situation unto himself through his own thoughts and actions?

Just a thought.

I agree....since when is a common hacker some kind of ufo hero?

Are ufologists above the law?

[mikey]

Gary has undoutbtedley brought this situation onto himself but he deserves nothing along the lines of treatment he is getting or being threatened with dont u think...

Are ufologists above the law...?...no is the simple answer to that....but neither should anyone else be then, which is quite clearly the case. It seems there is one rule for certain people and another for others.

What he did in terms of hacking into private government computers is wrong yes but the manner in bringing him to ''justice'' for it is wrong and a full public enquiry should be made into these accusations of a secret space cover up. Surely it is about time dont u think? I mean how long is it gona take or how many inquisitive people are gona be hung out to dry before we the people stand up and say NO..they may be on to something here!
Im not saying he should be freed bcos what he did and the manner of it was wrong but he there is no way he should be extradited for it....it wouldnt happen if it were the other way around would it...no, bcos the law is different on the other boot! Madness :winksmiley02:

We are the people..and we should know what is happening in my honest opinion.

Until the government come clean on these matters then i cant see people just shutting up and carrying on like nothing is happening...especially with the current influx of sightings we have had this yr in particular and its only going to increase (imo).

X files have been released from France recently as well as the UK and other nations and this guy is still being trialled like nothing is going on...a massive case of cognitive dissonance and ignorance by the public on one level.
One day all this stuff will come out one way or another and people will rem that guy who got done unfairly for trying to get the truth out.

Gary..if u ever read this...chin up son...the reprocussions of what u have done will be felt all over the world one day and for that we are ever thankful for ur efforts.

Peace

bananaman

[Avid]

Thank you Bill and Kerry for trying to help this poor lad!
He was silly to hack, but young chaps and their bravado with technology sometimes forget the repercussions.
The knee-jerk reaction by the US is ludicrous, especially as they are regularly hacked anyway. Gary should not be allowed by our government to be made an example of. He should serve his penalty here in the UK.
Haven't the US got better things to do at the moment....?

[chaostheory]

Yes you can say that what he did was silly, but also very brave, and something people need these days, to give them a glimpse of what is happening so maybe they will WAKE UP!

I feel really sorry for him the way he is being treated. The American government trying to make an example of him, but is that going to serve any purpose? The damage has been done, and they more or less brought it on themselves, and Gary just single handedly embarressed them due to their lack of security to some of the most secret files in the world!

And as usual the British Governemt are being lapdogs to the Americans and hardly offering any sort of protection. I have got a feelign he will be ok though, he has got a lot of support, and from soem very special people.

Bill and Kerry, please send all our support and best wishes from Avalon to Gary :original:

CT

[atama]

Bill: didn't Gordon Novel offer help? I think it is time that Gary took up Gordon's offer!

good point.

Bill/Kerry, has Mr.Novel been in contact ?

[murnut]

The ends don't justify the means, it makes us no better than those we despise.

Gary was offered 6 mos in a US jail, the balance to be served in Britian.

Unfortunately, many have fallen for Gary's hype.

He should plead out, since he has admitted guilt

[QtesUKStoke]

the odds are that the 'trial' will be closed court, you know, matter of national security, no media..

This would'nt surprise me in the slightist!

[captainlockheed]

The fact remains is the US has great sway over the internal affairs of the UK. In Gary McKinnons original trial here in the UK, US government representatives failed to offer any evidence that he had com mitted any crime and the judge rightly threw out the case. Now he finds himself being extradited with calls from publicity seeking politicians in the US calling for Gary to be fried.

Like it or not this seems to us little englanders as barbaric:mad3:

[murnut]

The fact remains is the US has great sway over the internal affairs of the UK. In Gary McKinnons original trial here in the UK, US government representatives failed to offer any evidence that he had com mitted any crime and the judge rightly threw out the case. Now he finds himself being extradited with calls from publicity seeking politicians in the US calling for Gary to be fried.

Like it or not this seems to us little englanders as barbaric:mad3:



Gary has been charged with a crime.

He has admitted he hacked the computers

But the evidence has not yet been presented.

Gary was offered 6 mos in US prison and the balance to be serve in the UK.
=============================================

10. With those few introductory paragraphs it is necessary to turn in a little detail to the facts of the case.

The appellant’s alleged criminality

11. Using his home computer the appellant, through the internet, identified US Government network computers with an open Microsoft Windows connection and from those extracted the identities of certain administrative accounts and associated passwords. Having gained access to those accounts he installed unauthorised remote access and administrative software called “remotely anywhere” that enabled him to access and alter data upon the American computers at any time and without detection by virtue of the programme masquerading as a Windows operating system. Once “remotely anywhere” was installed, he then installed software facilitating both further compromises to the computers and also the concealment of his own activities. Using this software he was able to scan over 73,000 US Government computers for other computers and networks susceptible to similar compromise. He was thus able to lever himself from network to network and into a number of significant Government computers in different parts of the USA.

12. The 97 computers the appellant accessed were: 53 army computers, including computers based in Virginia and Washington that control the army’s military district of Washington network and are used in furtherance of national defence and security; 26 navy computers, including US Naval Weapons Station Earle, New Jersey, which was responsible for replenishing munitions and supplies for the deployed Atlantic fleet; 16 NASA computers; one Department of Defense computer; and one US Air Force computer.

13. Having gained access to these computers the appellant deleted data from them including critical operating system files from nine computers, the deletion of which shut down the entire US Army’s Military District of Washington network of over 2000 computers for 24 hours, significantly disrupting Governmental functions; 2,455 user accounts on a US Army computer that controlled access to an Army computer network, causing these computers to reboot and become inoperable; and logs from computers at US Naval Weapons Station Earle, one of which was used for monitoring the identity, location, physical condition, staffing and battle readiness of Navy ships, deletion of these files rendering the Base’s entire network of over 300 computers inoperable at a critical time immediately following 11 September 2001 and thereafter leaving the network vulnerable to other intruders.

14. The appellant also copied data and files onto his own computers, including operating system files containing account names and encrypted passwords from 22 computers comprising: 189 files from US Army computers, 35 files from US Navy computers (including some 950 passwords from server computers at Naval Weapons Station Earle); and six files from NASA computers.

15. The appellant’s conduct was alleged to be intentional and calculated to influence the US Government by intimidation and coercion. It damaged computers by impairing their integrity, availability and operation of programmes, systems, information and data, rendering them unreliable. The cost of repair was alleged to total over $700,000.

16. Analysis of the appellant’s home computer confirmed these allegations. During his interviews under caution, moreover, he admitted responsibility (although not that he had actually caused damage). He stated that his targets were high level US Army, Navy and Air Force computers and that his ultimate goal was to gain access to the US military classified information network. He admitted leaving a note on one army computer reading:

“US foreign policy is akin to government-sponsored terrorism these days . . . It was not a mistake that there was a huge security stand down on September 11 last year . . . I am SOLO. I will continue to disrupt at the highest levels . . .”

The plea-bargaining process (including discussion of repatriation)

17. In August 2002 the appellant instructed Ms Karen Todner, senior partner of Kaim Todner, to act as his solicitor. In November 2002 Ms Todner learned that an American prosecutor, Scott Stein, had applied for a formal indictment against the appellant and telephoned him to register her interest. There followed a number of communications during which Mr Stein indicated how much better a deal would be available to the appellant if he went voluntarily to the United States and pleaded guilty than if he contested extradition and denied the charges. Some of these communications were by telephone, some in writing, others at meetings with Mr Ed Gibson, the FBI legal attaché at the American Embassy in London. It is sufficient to set out the substance of what was said at the final such meeting on 14 April 2003, attended by Ms Todner and Mr Edmund Lawson QC for the appellant, and by Mr Stein, his superior Mr Hanly, and Mr Gibson as representatives of the US Government. I take this from a recent witness statement made by Mr Lawson dated 6 June 2008. (A broadly similar account taken from statements made by Ms Todner is set out in the Divisional Court’s judgment which also contains a detailed account of the earlier communications.)

18. Mr Stein confirmed that he was authorised to offer the appellant a deal in return for not contesting extradition and for agreeing to plead guilty to two of the counts laid against him of “fraud and related activity in connection with computers". On this basis it was likely that a sentence of 3-4 years (more precisely 37-46 months), probably at the shorter end of that bracket, would be passed and that after serving 6-12 months in the US, the appellant would be repatriated to complete his sentence in the UK. In this event his release date would be determined by reference to the UK’s remission rules namely, in the case of a sentence not exceeding four years, release at the discretion of the parole board after serving half the nominal sentence, release as of right at the two-thirds point. On that basis, he might serve a total of only some eighteen months to two years.

19. The predicted sentence of 3-4 years was based upon sentencing guidelines themselves based upon a points system. The prosecution would recommend to the court a particular points level which the court would be likely to accept. Similarly the prosecutor would recommend to the section of the US Department of Justice responsible for administering the Convention on the Transfer of Sentenced Persons that the appellant be transferred and this recommendation too was in practice likely to be accepted.

20. If, however, the appellant chose not to cooperate, and were then extradited and convicted, he might expect to receive a sentence of 8-10 years, possibly longer, and would not be repatriated to the UK for any part of it. He would accordingly serve the whole sentence in a US prison (possibly high security) with at best some 15% remission.

21. Mr Lawson clearly recalls the prospect of repatriation being stated to depend upon the appellant’s application for transfer being supported by the prosecution. If the support were withheld as it would be if extradition was contested, there was said to be no prospect of repatriation, a refusal by the Department of Justice being unreviewable in the US courts.

22. The proposed “deal” was conditional upon the appellant entering into a form of Plea Agreement, a lengthy document including the provision in para 4 that:

“the defendant is aware that the defendant’s sentence will be imposed in accordance with the Sentencing Guidelines and Policy Statements. The defendant is aware that the Court has jurisdiction and authority to impose any sentence within the statutory maximum set for the offense (s) to which the defendant pleads guilty. The defendant is aware that the Court has not yet determined a sentence. The defendant is also aware that any estimate of the probable sentencing range under the sentencing guidelines that the defendant may have received from the defendant’s counsel, the United States, or the probation office, is a prediction, not a promise, and is not binding on the United States, the probation office, or the Court. The United States makes no promise or representation concerning what sentence the defendant will receive, and the defendant cannot withdraw a guilty plea based upon the actual sentence.”

The Plea Agreement included a further term in para 12 that the US Attorney’s Offices respectively for the Eastern District of Virginia and the District of New Jersey “will not oppose the defendant’s application to transfer any sentence imposed by the Court made pursuant to the Council of Europe Convention".


23. Subsequent to the Divisional Court’s judgment but prior to Mr Lawson’s statement an affidavit was sworn by Robert Wiechering on behalf of the US Attorney’s Offices for both districts stating that they “will not oppose any prisoner transfer application that may be made by Gary McKinnon (if extradited and convicted) based, in whole or in part, on his refusal to waive or consent to extradition from the United Kingdom.”

24. Following the meeting of 14 April 2003 Ms Todner took advice from an American defense lawyer and, subsequently, the appellant declined the “deal".

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld200708/ldjudgmt/jd080730/mckinn-1.htm


Now whose fault is this?


Gary refused the deal.

At what point is Gary responsible for his own actions?

[Andre]

Gary has been charged with a crime.

He has admitted he hacked the computers

But the evidence has not yet been presented.

Gary was offered 6 mos in US prison and the balance to be serve in the UK.
=============================================

10. With those few introductory paragraphs it is necessary to turn in a little detail to the facts of the case.

The appellant’s alleged criminality

11. Using his home computer the appellant, through the internet, identified US Government network computers with an open Microsoft Windows connection and from those extracted the identities of certain administrative accounts and associated passwords. Having gained access to those accounts he installed unauthorised remote access and administrative software called “remotely anywhere” that enabled him to access and alter data upon the American computers at any time and without detection by virtue of the programme masquerading as a Windows operating system. Once “remotely anywhere” was installed, he then installed software facilitating both further compromises to the computers and also the concealment of his own activities. Using this software he was able to scan over 73,000 US Government computers for other computers and networks susceptible to similar compromise. He was thus able to lever himself from network to network and into a number of significant Government computers in different parts of the USA.

12. The 97 computers the appellant accessed were: 53 army computers, including computers based in Virginia and Washington that control the army’s military district of Washington network and are used in furtherance of national defence and security; 26 navy computers, including US Naval Weapons Station Earle, New Jersey, which was responsible for replenishing munitions and supplies for the deployed Atlantic fleet; 16 NASA computers; one Department of Defense computer; and one US Air Force computer.

13. Having gained access to these computers the appellant deleted data from them including critical operating system files from nine computers, the deletion of which shut down the entire US Army’s Military District of Washington network of over 2000 computers for 24 hours, significantly disrupting Governmental functions; 2,455 user accounts on a US Army computer that controlled access to an Army computer network, causing these computers to reboot and become inoperable; and logs from computers at US Naval Weapons Station Earle, one of which was used for monitoring the identity, location, physical condition, staffing and battle readiness of Navy ships, deletion of these files rendering the Base’s entire network of over 300 computers inoperable at a critical time immediately following 11 September 2001 and thereafter leaving the network vulnerable to other intruders.

14. The appellant also copied data and files onto his own computers, including operating system files containing account names and encrypted passwords from 22 computers comprising: 189 files from US Army computers, 35 files from US Navy computers (including some 950 passwords from server computers at Naval Weapons Station Earle); and six files from NASA computers.

15. The appellant’s conduct was alleged to be intentional and calculated to influence the US Government by intimidation and coercion. It damaged computers by impairing their integrity, availability and operation of programmes, systems, information and data, rendering them unreliable. The cost of repair was alleged to total over $700,000.

16. Analysis of the appellant’s home computer confirmed these allegations. During his interviews under caution, moreover, he admitted responsibility (although not that he had actually caused damage). He stated that his targets were high level US Army, Navy and Air Force computers and that his ultimate goal was to gain access to the US military classified information network. He admitted leaving a note on one army computer reading:

“US foreign policy is akin to government-sponsored terrorism these days . . . It was not a mistake that there was a huge security stand down on September 11 last year . . . I am SOLO. I will continue to disrupt at the highest levels . . .”

The plea-bargaining process (including discussion of repatriation)

17. In August 2002 the appellant instructed Ms Karen Todner, senior partner of Kaim Todner, to act as his solicitor. In November 2002 Ms Todner learned that an American prosecutor, Scott Stein, had applied for a formal indictment against the appellant and telephoned him to register her interest. There followed a number of communications during which Mr Stein indicated how much better a deal would be available to the appellant if he went voluntarily to the United States and pleaded guilty than if he contested extradition and denied the charges. Some of these communications were by telephone, some in writing, others at meetings with Mr Ed Gibson, the FBI legal attaché at the American Embassy in London. It is sufficient to set out the substance of what was said at the final such meeting on 14 April 2003, attended by Ms Todner and Mr Edmund Lawson QC for the appellant, and by Mr Stein, his superior Mr Hanly, and Mr Gibson as representatives of the US Government. I take this from a recent witness statement made by Mr Lawson dated 6 June 2008. (A broadly similar account taken from statements made by Ms Todner is set out in the Divisional Court’s judgment which also contains a detailed account of the earlier communications.)

18. Mr Stein confirmed that he was authorised to offer the appellant a deal in return for not contesting extradition and for agreeing to plead guilty to two of the counts laid against him of “fraud and related activity in connection with computers". On this basis it was likely that a sentence of 3-4 years (more precisely 37-46 months), probably at the shorter end of that bracket, would be passed and that after serving 6-12 months in the US, the appellant would be repatriated to complete his sentence in the UK. In this event his release date would be determined by reference to the UK’s remission rules namely, in the case of a sentence not exceeding four years, release at the discretion of the parole board after serving half the nominal sentence, release as of right at the two-thirds point. On that basis, he might serve a total of only some eighteen months to two years.

19. The predicted sentence of 3-4 years was based upon sentencing guidelines themselves based upon a points system. The prosecution would recommend to the court a particular points level which the court would be likely to accept. Similarly the prosecutor would recommend to the section of the US Department of Justice responsible for administering the Convention on the Transfer of Sentenced Persons that the appellant be transferred and this recommendation too was in practice likely to be accepted.

20. If, however, the appellant chose not to cooperate, and were then extradited and convicted, he might expect to receive a sentence of 8-10 years, possibly longer, and would not be repatriated to the UK for any part of it. He would accordingly serve the whole sentence in a US prison (possibly high security) with at best some 15% remission.

21. Mr Lawson clearly recalls the prospect of repatriation being stated to depend upon the appellant’s application for transfer being supported by the prosecution. If the support were withheld as it would be if extradition was contested, there was said to be no prospect of repatriation, a refusal by the Department of Justice being unreviewable in the US courts.

22. The proposed “deal” was conditional upon the appellant entering into a form of Plea Agreement, a lengthy document including the provision in para 4 that:

“the defendant is aware that the defendant’s sentence will be imposed in accordance with the Sentencing Guidelines and Policy Statements. The defendant is aware that the Court has jurisdiction and authority to impose any sentence within the statutory maximum set for the offense (s) to which the defendant pleads guilty. The defendant is aware that the Court has not yet determined a sentence. The defendant is also aware that any estimate of the probable sentencing range under the sentencing guidelines that the defendant may have received from the defendant’s counsel, the United States, or the probation office, is a prediction, not a promise, and is not binding on the United States, the probation office, or the Court. The United States makes no promise or representation concerning what sentence the defendant will receive, and the defendant cannot withdraw a guilty plea based upon the actual sentence.”

The Plea Agreement included a further term in para 12 that the US Attorney’s Offices respectively for the Eastern District of Virginia and the District of New Jersey “will not oppose the defendant’s application to transfer any sentence imposed by the Court made pursuant to the Council of Europe Convention".


23. Subsequent to the Divisional Court’s judgment but prior to Mr Lawson’s statement an affidavit was sworn by Robert Wiechering on behalf of the US Attorney’s Offices for both districts stating that they “will not oppose any prisoner transfer application that may be made by Gary McKinnon (if extradited and convicted) based, in whole or in part, on his refusal to waive or consent to extradition from the United Kingdom.”

24. Following the meeting of 14 April 2003 Ms Todner took advice from an American defense lawyer and, subsequently, the appellant declined the “deal".

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld200708/ldjudgmt/jd080730/mckinn-1.htm


Now whose fault is this?


Gary refused the deal.

At what point is Gary responsible for his own actions?
Maybe it is not a matter of fault. Maybe it is not as black and white as we think. There are several levels of grey here.

Is it possible that Gary is holding out in the hopes that eventually more will be revealed about what is on those computers and what the controllers are upto.

[murnut]

If that was true...he would have come to the States...instead of releasing false info about the charges he faces....and trying to avoid the extradition be any means.

He will not go to Guantanamo.

He does not face the death penalty.

He will be tried in open court.

He will not be tried by a Military Tribunal.

He is not being treated as an Enemy combatant.

He passed on 3 years...6mos in the US...the balance in the UK..probably a total of 18mos.

Do any of you out there wish that Gary fights these charges and face the maximum penalty...of 60-70 years?

Or should he plead...he has admitted guilt at this point. He should cut the best deal he can.

Many Ufo people seem to think he should fight.

This is not in Gary's best interest.

Too many have given Gary terrible advice.

Had he taken the original deal...he would have been out a year ago.

If Gary really had seen anything, we would have never even heard of him.

Gary is being treated no differently than any other hacker....who got caught.

If anyone says otherwise, I would like to see some proof.

[ucan]

Dear Gary - do a runner.:winksmiley02:

[Theresa]

I am confused about people's reactions about Gary's "criminal" activity. A-hem...last time I checked the government is THE MOST criminal institution on the planet-certainly those involved in clandestine activities that Gary is alleged to have stumbled upon.

My feeling is that his behavior is divinely inspired to expose what has been hidden-all a part of the overall ascension process.

and, right on Andre, of COURSE there are shades of grey....come on, people....get heart centered now....:)

[murnut]

I am confused about people's reactions about Gary's "criminal" activity. A-hem...last time I checked the government is THE MOST criminal institution on the planet-certainly those involved in clandestine activities that Gary is alleged to have stumbled upon.

My feeling is that his behavior is divinely inspired to expose what has been hidden-all a part of the overall ascension process.

and, right on Andre, of COURSE there are shades of grey....come on, people....get heart centered now....:)

So do the ends justify the means?

They do it to us so we can do it to them?

Two wrongs make a right?

They kill so we can kill?

They hack so we can hack?

Can anyone show me some evidence that Gary is being treated any differently than any other hacker who got caught?

Probably not I am afraid, because those folks must have had some decent lawyers who advised their clients to plead and be out in 18mos.

Hackers are hero's to some here, just as long as it suits your agenda.

If you really wanted to support him, if you really had his best interest at heart, what advice would you give?

[droid56]

He hacked an evil government, the 9/11 perpetrators, that is complicit in a long term plan to subjugate its population, with service-to-self Ets at the top echelon of the pyramid of power. Murnut will never get it. His endless diatribe against Gary, the evil hacker, has been played out endlessly on Open Minds forum.

Any action, either legal or illegal (as long as it is non-violent in nature), that sheds even a little light on the ultimate crime I mentioned in my first paragraph is justifiable.

This will be my last posting, and my last reading in this particular thread, because if I keep reading Murnut's inane argument I might end up putting my foot through my computer screen.

My advice. Don't argue with Murnut. While we slowly lose our freedom, he will continue to focus on the importance of "law and order".

[murnut]

He hacked an evil government, the 9/11 perpetrators, that is complicit in a long term plan to subjugate its population, with service-to-self Ets at the top echelon of the pyramid of power. Murnut will never get it. His endless diatribe against Gary, the evil hacker, has been played out endlessly on Open Minds forum.

Any action, either legal or illegal (as long as it is non-violent in nature), that sheds even a little light on the ultimate crime I mentioned in my first paragraph is justifiable.

This will be my last posting, and my last reading in this particular thread, because if I keep reading Murnut's inane argument I might end up putting my foot through my computer screen.

My advice. Don't argue with Murnut. While we slowly lose our freedom, he will continue to focus on the importance of "law and order".

Yes...don't argue with me because I am right....lol.

And I have no problem in fighting for a cause.

Gary is just not one of them.

If Gary would have stood up, and faced the music like a man, instead of a chicken, I might have felt differently.

But instead, Gary has used the ufo community for his own purposes, and for the most part, the Conspiracy crowd has eaten it right up.

Gary and his supporters have constantly misrepresented the facts.

If folks want the ufo community to be taken seriously, then we have to distance ourselves from people and causes which hurt the greater good.

Now tell me...in my diatribe against Gary's supporters, what Have I misrepresented?

Me and a few others have actually had Gary's best interest at heart.

Plead out.

But many others want him to fight and face the maximum term.

Is that really in Gary's best interest?

=======================================



If you believe that the Govt is evil, Droid, don't pay your taxes.

But at least have the guts to stand up for what you believe in.

Is that what Gary has done ?

[murnut]

So I am clear....I hope Gary get's off with as little as time as possible

Really I do.

But it infuriates me when some folks call him some kind of ufo hero.

Heroes stand up and don't cry when they don't get their way.

There are real heroes that the UFO community can be proud of.

Gary is not one of them, in my opinion.

My opinion is largely based on the actions Gary and his "team" took after his arrest

[mikey]

Is this a wind up?!...can u honestly not see the importance of uncovering the informaiton being kept from the public..be it regarding alternative energy, a secret space programme, depopulation etc etc... Can u not see how keeping us in the dark about such monumental information and for such a large amount of time is grossly wrong and unnacceptable?! OR do u think we dont have the right to know?
I really dont care who the person was or people were, i stand by anyone who is trying to bring forward information that is being wrongly witheld...whether that involves hacking into someone elses computer system or stealing their secret diary....these are subjects which have deliberately been hidden from us.
However ''bad'' the crime was and whatever the ''law'' states..it can not be as bad as the crime committed against humanity and the laws of ''freedom'' we have to abide by in my opinion. So with that in mind anyone who tries to free up information on issues which are quite clearly very sensitive and worth lying about on a massive global scale are courageous and undoubtedly attain hero status.

I agree with ucan...leg it son...do a runner :boat:

Peace

bananaman

[chaostheory]

Yeah, its seems murmot doesnt quite get it, or he would prefer to stick up for the laws of a corrupt government than defend the rights of a man whos tried to bring supressed information to the people who have a right to know about it!

Makes me kinda suspicious :sneaky2:

CT

[shaundelear]

The ends don't justify the means, it makes us no better than those we despise.

Gary was offered 6 mos in a US jail, the balance to be served in Britian.

Unfortunately, many have fallen for Gary's hype.

He should plead out, since he has admitted guilt

If they really offered Gary 6mths he would have taken it in fact I seem to remember he asked fo the deal in writing and they refused.

His interest in UFOs was fuelled by an urge to get his hands on free energy.
And his assumtion is correct -the place to find free energy is on craft that would require it.
So Gary was trying to break the illusion barrier created by the oil companys that have syphoned all the patents onto dusty shelves , and free the energy.

As occupants of the planet when new technolages that will help polution,poverty and remove possibly the no.1 reason that humans go to war-

WE SHOULD CONSIDER THAT A BREACH OF CONTRACT
the govs are elected to protect the future for our kids
WHEN FOR ECONOMIC REASONS THE PLANET SUFFERS
They wont stop chopping down rainforrest cause the "debts have to be paid"
WHEN WE ALLREADY HAVE THE TECHNOLAGES TO FIX IT
Did you know that a car running on hydrogen actually cleans the air as it runs? and it only waste product is water?
AND IT IS DELIBERATELY WITHHELD FROM THE POPULCE

THIS IS GROSS NEGLIGANCE AND IRRESPONSIBLE

AND GARRY TRIED TO RELEASE US FROM THE STUPIDITY

So to all those saying well he should not have done this he brought it on himself I say
"Shame on you- this man is a warrior fighting the root of todays evils before 99% of the world was even aware of the problem"
"We need more Garys!" - and thats why they are crucfying him to stop more.

If things go tits up for us all, " lower " forms of life suffer with us where is the logic or justice in that ?
As we are the caretakers of the whole biosphere the responsibility is ours.

Be strong Gary

[orwellsbud]

You'd have thought they'd at least offer him a job, seeing as he exposed the poor state of security and the ease in which he accessed information. It would've been much easier to keep whatever he saw quiet. I think the indifference the UK and EU have shown regarding his extradition is deplorable and perhaps serves as an indicator as to what the one world state style of justice will be like. (maybe that should be, is like? ...hmm):winksmiley02:

It will be interesting to see what happens when this goes to trial, if it ever gets that far. I personally think world events will foreshadow this before that happens and the whole case will slip away unnoticed.

Best of Luck to Gary!

Great Job on the poster by the way KL.

OB:smoke:

[punter2003]

I say well done to Gary. He has obviously huge skills on a computer and what a refreshing change that he didnt just take a tenner from everyones bank accounts and live like a king. Also im sure that the us goverment would like him to go on the payrole. so however it ends i think he will be alright.

[murnut]

Is this a wind up?!...can u honestly not see the importance of uncovering the informaiton being kept from the public..be it regarding alternative energy, a secret space programme, depopulation etc etc... Can u not see how keeping us in the dark about such monumental information and for such a large amount of time is grossly wrong and unnacceptable?! OR do u think we dont have the right to know?
I really dont care who the person was or people were, i stand by anyone who is trying to bring forward information that is being wrongly witheld...whether that involves hacking into someone elses computer system or stealing their secret diary....these are subjects which have deliberately been hidden from us.
However ''bad'' the crime was and whatever the ''law'' states..it can not be as bad as the crime committed against humanity and the laws of ''freedom'' we have to abide by in my opinion. So with that in mind anyone who tries to free up information on issues which are quite clearly very sensitive and worth lying about on a massive global scale are courageous and undoubtedly attain hero status.

I agree with ucan...leg it son...do a runner :boat:

Peace

bananaman

So where do any of you draw the line?

Kidnapping for ransom?

Terrorist attacks?

In for a penny, in for a pound?

Maybe you all want to stoop to the level of those others...but then you are no better...and you replace these PtB with new PtB that are the same.

If you want to break the cycle, then it must be done the right way.

Otherwise it is for nothing

[murnut]

Yeah, its seems murmot doesnt quite get it, or he would prefer to stick up for the laws of a corrupt government than defend the rights of a man whos tried to bring supressed information to the people who have a right to know about it!

Makes me kinda suspicious :sneaky2:

CT

Here come the new boss, same as the old boss.

Mark my words....T Ptb know far less about what is going on than you think.

They are in a loss-loss scenario.

No matter is the real truth is disclosed, most won't believe it.

You won't believe, because you will say it does not go far enough.

Joe six pack won't believe, because it goes too far.

I don't need to get my truth from the Govt.

Govt's are not about truth, never have been , never will be...and that is a fact.

It is about control.

I support the quest for the truth, through peaceful, law abiding means.

I drew my line...just where do your draw yours?

[Colin]

[MOD EDIT]
Ok people, the thread is now open again, but with conditions
There have been some very good arguments put across both for,and against Garys conduct in this thread.

The major sticking points have been Garys treament by the PTB,and the fact that in some peoples opinions Gary should be regarded as some sort of folk hero.

Everyone has the right to an opinion, but not the right to impose thier opinion onto others. Please bear that in mind before posting!

My locking of the thread was not a form of censorship on any individual, it was an enforced time out to allow everyone to calm down

Healthy debate & questioning are good - personal attacks & insults are not

Gary McKinnon is a former Project Camelot interviewee, and therefore should be afforded the same courtesy that is shown to other Project camelot interviewee's by members of this forum.

I shall be watching this thread closely & any repeat of yesterdays behaviour will leave me no option other than to close the thread permenantly,and issue warnings to those concerned
[END OF SERMON]
Post away..

[Colin]

..

[epo3]

It would be heroic for Gary to push for a jury trial of his peers (which might drag out for years) and force the US gov to accept evidence and testimony from Dan and Marci and maybe some surprise wittnesses.

Good Luck Gary, and Best Wishes...(Give'em Hell)...!

epo3

[murnut]

Sorry if I was hard on Gary.

My problem is not with Gary, but with the symbol Gary has become.

I hope Gary gets no or very little time.

But if Gary is the best example of a hero the ufo community can come up with, ufology is deader than dead.

Many of us, including me, have a predisposition to believe in anything that promotes the idea of an evil Ptb cover-up.

Certainly all is not what it seems, nor all has been told.

Govts have secrets, always have and always will.

But when it is obvious, that the facts about Gary's have been manipulated, to promote public sympathy, don't we have a duty to point that out?

How can ufology ever be taken seriously, when it can't get the simplest of facts straight about this case.

Gary does not deserve hard time, but he does not deserve special treatment either.

[murnut]

It would be heroic for Gary to push for a jury trial of his peers (which might drag out for years) and force the US gov to accept evidence and testimony from Dan and Marci and maybe some surprise wittnesses.

Good Luck Gary, and Best Wishes...(Give'em Hell)...!

epo3

Is that really in Gary's best interest to go to trial when he has admitted his guilt?


This perplexes me...many of Gary's supporters want Gary to have no charges, no charges enforced or they want a trial.

Why not plead to a lesser term especially when he does not deny the hacking?

Even if the Govt admitted the ufo cover up, Gary has still admitted the hacking.

What good does Dan and Marci testifying do?

And what evidence do they bring to the table?

Many seem to want to bet Gary's possible long sentence if he goes to trial on the premise that it could bring disclosure......this is not in Gary's best interest. Then he does face the maximum jail time.

Gary has made poor decisions to this point.

Are there those that would encourage yet another mistake?

[anonypony]

The ends don't justify the means, it makes us no better than those we despise.

Gary was offered 6 mos in a US jail, the balance to be served in Britian.

Unfortunately, many have fallen for Gary's hype.

He should plead out, since he has admitted guilt



Gary was offered 3, 4 years or frying, but when he asked for the offer to be guarantied in writing, he was refused.

Gary has admitted to being on the systems and snooping around, but always insisted he did not do ANY DAMAGE!!!!

Damage is a key component in this case, as without it, there could be no extradition! That is until a week ago when the legal goal post was moved once again to facilitate the ECHR refusal to hear the case.

Moving the legal goal post in this case is monumental to put it mildly...


When Gary was doing what he did and was caught doing it,

The law regarding his offences had very little to do with terrorism or extradition - the PROPORTIONATE penalty was 6 month community service at the max. This was the first change to the law effecting this case which made Hacking = terrorism.
At this point in time to extradite their citizen the UK gov had to see EVIDENCE of the alleged crime and for a court to be satisfied that the evidence is real and there is a case to answer. This law has changed too as I am sure we are all well aware, no evidence is necessary now, accusation alone is sufficient to ship ‘em out.
However for it to become an extradition offence, the accusation had to include the ‘damage component’ to the tune of a certain $ value per hacked machine. Magically that minimum value of damages is claimed to be the case here.
As the case was going through the ECHR the law has changed again in the US (same week) ... This time the necessity to PROVE any damage is no longer needed! This was done to signal the ECHR that ‘Human rights’ does not come into it on the basis that if there is no need to prove damages, there is no need for secrecy and therefore no need for the case to be heard as a military trial, but rather as a strait forward criminal court case.

One has to ask - what is it, they are so eager to hide or achieve through this case? So eager in fact that they where willing to twist and turn their legal muscle 3 times to make it happened... This is ‘some determination’ that is being demonstrated here, 8 years is a long time, some patience too....

Best wishes
Anony Pony

[Phoenix]

I think the main point may have been missed.

Is Gary guilty? I don't care.

What I do care about is how a UK citizen can be forcefully removed from his country on the orders of a foreign government. Every citizen of the UK should be deeply troubled by this.

[Steve_G]

No no no! He BROKE the LAW! It's WRONG to BREAK the LAW! No matter what the CIRCUMSTANCES are! No matter what the INTENTION is! :eek:

BULL***T!!!

The Powers That Be write the laws FOR THEIR OWN BENEFIT. Not ours. They apply them when it suits them. And when they no longer serve TPB they change them so they do.

I keep seeing the same arguments, comparing Gary to a terrorist and a murderer. Get real.

Slavishly following the law just because it's the law means you're not using the greatest gifts you have- your own mind and heart.

ILLEGAL does NOT always mean WRONG. Binary thinking like that is best used by robots- program them and watch them go.

Don't question, just obey.

TPB position: Don't take independent action if you feel something is unjust, just do what we tell you and go back to sleep. If you break the rules THAT WE CREATED to PROTECT US AT YOUR EXPENSE you will be severely punished.

BLACK OR WHITE thinking is exactly what TPB hoped to achieve and that's exactly what they've got.

This will be my only post. I too got dragged into this on the Open Minds forum and I won't waste my energy again.

Peace and love to all.

[STARCHILD]

Hello lightworkers and Co-Creators,
I believe that Gary Mckinnon is a truely brave soul.
I believe that this case has the potential to 'open ' many pathways to the exposure of TRUTH.
Shifting from 3rd density into 4th and 5th density is going to be a time of many 'great revealings'.And we will begin to witness a multitude of deeply hidden truths emerging from everywhere!! My word we already are!
All that is hidden will be revealed.
Project Camelot is playing a beautiful role in this revealing of truths.
Together we stand stronger x

[King Lear]

How do you want to proof the damages?
We all know that damages can be maked up post-crime.
I hope the judge/jury considers that.

In dubio pro reo - benefit of the doubt




And I would like to know if there are any sketches or so of the things Gary saw, I'm very curios because only from his narrations it's hardly to imagine.
He also was quite vaguely.

[anonypony]

There are few points raised here which I would like to respond to, lets begin with the House of Lords hearing of the case, I noticed that murnut quoted some of it here, with own emphasis and highlights, I am grateful, it gives me the opportunity to discuss it.

The credibility of the House of lords report and what has happened in reality

The basis of the house of lords hearing of the case stemmed from the difference between the legal system in the UK and the USA.
And aimed to determine if the plead bargain that was offered was pure threat or mere outlining to the accused of his options!

Gary’s legal team had documented evidence of the meeting where the threat was made, including a RECORDING of the meeting which could prove his case (of being threatened) either way, That evidence was STOLEN from Gary’s solicitors office in the last minute before the hearing.

Officials that were not present in this meeting (where Gary was threatened) are suddenly giving evidence that they were present with very little to prove the fact...

And more such anomalies were abundant throughout...

I ask myself: If Gary had no leg to stand on, why go to such length to eliminate all the evidence?

When I read the House of Lords report for the first time, I was amazed at the inaccuracies that appeared in it and the purpose those serve in ‘creating a particular perception’. Here is one example to highlight my point:

The house of lords report reads:

“16. Analysis of the appellant’s home computer confirmed these allegations. During his interviews under caution, moreover, he admitted responsibility (although not that he had actually caused damage). He stated that his targets were high level US Army, Navy and Air Force computers and that his ultimate goal was to gain access to the US military classified information network. He admitted leaving a note on one army computer reading:

“US foreign policy is akin to government-sponsored terrorism these days . . . It was not a mistake that there was a huge security stand down on September 11 last year . . . I am SOLO. I will continue to disrupt at the highest levels . . .” “

“Analysis of the appellant’s home computer confirmed these allegations.” In reality we are yet to see this evidence if you read what are these allegations, you will see that a lot of it centres on DAMAGE and MALICIOUS INTENT, both always denied by Gary!

Malicious Intent: The HL ruling reads:

“15. The appellant’s conduct was alleged to be intentional and calculated to influence the US Government by intimidation and coercion. It damaged computers by impairing their integrity, availability and operation of programmes, systems, information and data, rendering them unreliable. The cost of repair was alleged to total over $700,000.”

This is based on the way his massages are interpreted however In reality Gary left 3 separate messages on 3 different occasions

1.US foreign policy is akin to government-sponsored terrorism these days
2. It was not a mistake that there was a huge security stand down on September 11 last year
3. I am SOLO. I will continue to disrupt at the highest levels

Presenting it as one whole message takes it out of context and exaggerate the severity of it...

Another example of creating a false perception is not by what you say, but by what you don’t say.
The lords deliberate and present that the difference in severity of punishment between taking the plea offer or not, is not that great! 3, 4 years compared with 8-10 years, it stats:

“20. If, however, the appellant chose not to cooperate, and were then extradited and convicted, he might expect to receive a sentence of 8-10 years, possibly longer, and would not be repatriated to the UK for any part of it. He would accordingly serve the whole sentence in a US prison (possibly high security) with at best some 15% remission.”

In reality what they failed to mention throughout the report - is how many counts of 8 to 10 years are added up, which will be up to 70 - 80 years!

Creating a perception is the name of the game ‘WINING OUR HEARTS AND MINDS’ at all cost, is the real war here!

And the only effective way I know to fend this off, is by GETTING INFORMED so perception become based on facts not fantasy!

P.S Did I mention the lord presiding over this case is a high ranking ex UK secrete service?

Best wishes
Anony Pony

[Lochinvar]

Yeah, its seems murmot doesnt quite get it, or he would prefer to stick up for the laws of a corrupt government than defend the rights of a man whos tried to bring supressed information to the people who have a right to know about it!

Makes me kinda suspicious :sneaky2:

CT

Makes me very suspicious as well. Just the sort of opinion that I´d expect Garys prosecutors to have.

The motto of the MacKinnon family is:

"Fortune favours the daring"

Let´s hope its true.

[murnut]

Maybe it just is what it is....a hacker got caught.

If gary had really seen anything, he would have been eliminated.

All the hype about this case has come from Gary's side.

I have no problem with Gary, but I do have a problem with a distortion of the facts.

Either the US govt can prove the damage, or they can't.

Gary admitted hacking the network.

Why do so many advocate Gary pleading not guilty?

Is this in Gary's best interest?

[murnut]

Makes me very suspicious as well. Just the sort of opinion that I´d expect Garys prosecutors to have.

The motto of the MacKinnon family is:

"Fortune favours the daring"

Let´s hope its true.

Gary's side has distorted the facts.

Lies are not the way.

Not every conspiracy theory is true.

Gary has gotten terrible legal advice....and it amazes me that most don't see this.

[King Lear]

Maybe it just is what it is....a hacker got caught.

If gary had really seen anything, he would have been eliminated.

All the hype about this case has come from Gary's side.

I have no problem with Gary, but I do have a problem with a distortion of the facts.

Either the US govt can prove the damage, or they can't.

Gary admitted hacking the network.

Why do so many advocate Gary pleading not guilty?

Is this in Gary's best interest?

And why do you consider him as GUILTY a priori?

Have you inspected "the damgead computers"?


Begging your pardon, but
I think you do take this position because of a wrongly understood patriotism.

[anonypony]

Again I would like to thank murnut for repeatedly making the point that all cases of hacking are dealt with in a similar way and challenging anyone to come up with references to such cases that did not attract such treatment.

The article quoted below highlights this issue and give such reference. Mathew Bevan alleged crimes were cited as examples of cyberterrorism at Senate hearings in 1996. But no attempt was ever made to extradite Bevan to the US. Instead he was prosecuted in the UK. The case eventually fell apart after 18 months, when prosecutors decided not to proceed.

Best wishes
Anony Pony

McKinnon a 'scapegoat for Pentagon insecurity' US mil still wide open to attack, says reformed hacker

By John Leyden
Published Wednesday 3rd September 2008 08:02 GMT on > The Register » Security » Crime » http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/09/03/mckinnon_bevan_interview_analysis/

As accused Pentagon hacker Gary McKinnon hopes against hope to avoid being extradited to the US, another reformed military systems meddler considers his own case - and how different the outcome was.

McKinnon is probably days away from extradition. Only a last minute plea to the Home Secretary "Wacky" Jacqui Smith - based on McKinnon's recent diagnosis with Asperger Syndrome - now stands between the Scot and a US trial for hacking into US government and military systems. Friends and family staged a demonstration outside the Home Office on Tuesday in a bid to draw attention to McKinnon's plight.

The handling of McKinnon's case is in marked contrast to how US authorities handled a similar one ten years ago. Like McKinnon, reformed computer hacker Mathew Bevan was charged with breaking into US military computer systems. Bevan was also curious about searching for evidence that the US military had harvested technology from crashed UFOs. Bevan's alleged crimes were cited as examples of cyberterrorism at Senate hearings in 1996.

But no attempt was ever made to extradite Bevan to the US. Instead he was prosecuted in the UK. The case eventually fell apart after 18 months, when prosecutors decided not to proceed.

Bevan put the legal fight behind him and has since gone on to become an ethical hacker and security consultant. Speaking exclusively to El Reg, Bevan said McKinnon is being used in a political game that has more to do with securing funds than deterring or preventing attacks.

"Clearly, lessons have not been learned since I breached similar systems and as I have always suggested - perhaps stopping the intrusions is not the goal of the administration," Bevan said. "Tacitly allowing access to machines by ensuring that default passwords or in fact access methods without passwords is suggestive of a system that really does not care too much about many of the machines connected to it."

Bevan questions why Windows PCs on US military networks are connected to the internet via direct IPs. Thousands of attackers regularly use the same remote access port accessed during McKinnon's hack, but little or no action has been taken in their cases, Bevan adds.

McKinnon has said that many other hackers had gained access to the same systems he was accessing, questioning why US authorities singled him out for prosecution. The fact that McKinnon did nothing to disguise his tracks and lived in a country with a friendly extradition regime probably has a fair bit to do with this.

Bevan supports McKinnon's contention that he was far from alone in rooting around US military systems. "You ask any military hacker about the machines they broke in to and they will tell you they were not the only people on those systems. Of course, they weren't the only people, as there were great numbers of people whiling away their time hacking computers."

Pork barrel ploy

McKinnon, according to Bevan, was far more than simply unlucky.

"Why is it that only a tiny number of those people ever face prosecution? It is clearly not because the others cannot be found. You cannot believe that out of so many people, Gary just happened to be caught."

McKinnon is being used as a scapegoat in a bid to secure extra funding to protect US military networks, according to Bevan, who reckons a commercial organisation would never get away with such trickery.

"I think it's all about timing and whether or not the hacker will make a good scapegoat whilst allowing the administration to request further money. The fear machine can keep churning out propaganda as per normal, but don't expect those machines to actually get better security. They are not businesses, have no shareholders and therefore do not have to answer to the same stringent rules and tests that the computer systems of corporations would."

Bevan compared hacking attacks to an infestation by pests. Both stem from a failure to follow basic housekeeping rules, he argued.

"My cynical side believes that those 'pesky hackers' are treated just like any bug infestation, the odd one or two or even a handful is not much of an issue until the place becomes overrun. It is then that you can call in the exterminators and make a big fuss about the problem, of course it never addresses that the usual problem with an infestation is someone has not been keeping their place tidy. You leave scraps around for rats to find and in a short time you will have many, many more rats sniffing around for the goodies."

With such lax security, the US authorities are lucky that McKinnon only had peaceful intentions in mind, Bevan noted.

"Gary is a self-confessed stoner and perpetrated the 'biggest military hack of all time' whilst completely wasted. This is clearly a sign of how lax the security of these systems was. If Gary had been clear minded and deliberate about what he wanted to achieve and was a malicious person rather than the pacifist he is - where exactly would we be now?"

Fast-track extradition is a one-way street

The US Congress has not ratified the fast-track extradition treaty between the UK and the US. UK prosecutors would need to present a compelling case before a US court before securing an extradition, whereas US authorities, as in the McKinnon case, have far fewer hurdles to clear.

"If it was an American hacker who had breached our computers - would we be fighting for extradition? I doubt it. In fact, we would most likely have to issue a public apology for our lapse in security and the media would be up-in-arms about how weak our defences are."

He added that the human factor is often ignored in the debate over McKinnon's fate, which is split between the 'burn him' camp and the 'deal with him here or let him go' lobby.

"People seem to forget that Gary is not just a meme or a 'hacker' - he is a real person. This guy has been waiting for six and a half years already. Now the chances are that if it had been dealt with over here he would have long served his time and be free to carry on his life.

"Due to political wranglings, all we are going to see is more time lumped on top of what has already been spent waiting in the wings and as many expect that time could be way in excess of the sentences for murder here."

According to papers submitted to his failed House of Lords appeal, McKinnon was offered a plea bargaining deal featuring a sentence of between three and four years in jail, if he cooperated with the US authorities and dropped his opposition to extradition against eight to ten years behind bars in a high-security prison after a US trial. Lawyers acting for McKinnon said that this deal might not be binding, and expressed concerns that McKinnon might be prosecuted by a US military rather than civilian court.

McKinnon (AKA Solo) has always admitted that he broke into US government computer systems but denies causing any damage. Bevan said McKinnon has not had enough credit in admitting responsibility for his misdeeds.

"Under UK law we are supposed to be more lenient on criminals who admit their crimes and accept the consequences. In this case, the effect appears to be the opposite - plead guilty then wait for the consequences. In the meantime have your charges upgraded as new laws are introduced and applied retrospectively."

Supporters of McKinnon argue that the prosecution may yet blow up in their faces by placing the security shortcomings of US government systems under the microscope, especially if the case goes to trial. Sysadmins may be faced with awkward questions about why their systems were so easy to infiltrate. Even if such questions fail to arise at trial, they might spark unwelcome Congressional scrutiny.

Stars and prison stripes

Bevan said McKinnon can expect to be treated harshly by a US court, especially if (as expected) he is tried in Virginia.

"Virginia is not exactly the most friendly state to foreigners and somehow I do not think that someone who 'attacked the United States' is going to be treated that well," Bevan said, adding there was a "high chances of abuse, torture, rape and drug abuse" in US prisons.

McKinnon's supporters argue the case has wider political implications involving the UK's willingness to deport suspects to the US and Europe without requiring evidence to be presented. Bevan is also critical of the fast-track deportation system.

"Is this the new way forward for the UK justice system, to allow citizens to be removed from the country without any evidence having to be presented? To allow them to go to a penal system which allows torture and brutality of its inmates is a clear violation of his human rights."

McKinnon has shown clear signs of remorse, according to Bevan, yet this has not counted in his favour. Bevan predicts that the case sets a pattern for how the prosecution of other UK hackers accused of committing offences in the US will be treated - marking a permanent move away from local prosecution to extradition as the preferred route.

"It saddens me that the USA can remove our citizens without any prima facie evidence, yet we cannot do the same when we wish to prosecute one of their citizens. This always felt like one of the main test cases and I am sure that we will see more people being treated in this way - guilty or not makes no difference," Bevan told El Reg. "If you do not have to argue your case or can justify closed hearings based on 'national security', we are clearly moving deeper into a system of control and away from any kind of democracy."

"People talk about 'Don't do the crime if you can't do the time', but what if the crime did not have the consequences at the time that it has now? When he was doing what he was doing, the extradition laws were not made and hacking was not a terrorist offence."

McKinnon was recently diagnosed with Asperger syndrome. Bevan is sceptical whether this, and more especially his heavy use of marijuana while hacking, will be counted as mitigating by the US court system.

"People clearly forget to consider that Gary has Aspergers, was using huge quantities of skunk. Is this a person that was thinking clearly?"

"Do you think that he had any real comprehension of what he was doing? The internet is 'not real' to many people, it's just stuff that happens somewhere else. It is here that people can do things they would never normally do in the real world and do not see the correlation between online activities and real world consequences. Someone who is wasted on weed can suffer many mental effects of doing so. Here, this would be taken into consideration, but in the States, he could be looking at ten years on top of his sentence for committing a crime under the influence of drugs." ®

[mikey]

"People talk about 'Don't do the crime if you can't do the time', but what if the crime did not have the consequences at the time that it has now? When he was doing what he was doing, the extradition laws were not made and hacking was not a terrorist offence."

back of the net... :thumb_yello:

peace bananaman

[anonypony]

"People talk about 'Don't do the crime if you can't do the time', but what if the crime did not have the consequences at the time that it has now? When he was doing what he was doing, the extradition laws were not made and hacking was not a terrorist offence."

back of the net... :thumb_yello:

peace bananaman

Indeed!!!!
(see my post on page 2 for more details) since the crime was committed 3 majors laws have been changed to facilitate a successful prosecution of this case.

You would think this in unlawful as it is unjust, but the way the law views retrospective prosecution is that it is unfair but acceptable!


best wishes
Anony Pony

[chaostheory]

Dont worry guys, you always find people like murmot on every forum. likes to to give an opinion against the majority. Some peopel like to try to provoke attention

If he'd seen anythign he would have been eliminated? Thats where going public helps

Gary has distorted that facts and got terrible legal advice? Are you in close relation to this case? Have you done an exceeding amount of research into it? More than Kerry, Bill, any of us? Do u relaise the laws have changed on the prosecutions favour?

But if theres any substasnce in mine and Lochinvars suspicions, is there any real point coming on here trying to convice us all he is in the wrong and deserves his punishment and hes lying? What would that do? No...i think we're offering more credit than deserved.

Anyway, enough replying to these kind of comments, we all know what we belive and where our morals stand, its fairly obvious.

Standing together is standing stronger :thumb_yello:

CT

[JSErwine]

I'm trying to understand why anyone thinks that any "secret information" will be revealed to the public through this hearing by the prosecuting side?

Even if they get enough of the publics attention to this case and are asked to reveal the information viewed by Gary. They will just take the stand of "The information is a matter of national security" and will just become more historical fodder for conspirecy theorists.

I find Project Camelot's video interview with Gary interesting to say the least. Gary comes across to me as sincere and pretty much a normal Joe, like you and I.

This whole thing is a classic "David vs. Goliath" scenario on the grandest scale. Personaly I would plea bargain unless the inforamtion viewed was so important to mankind, that I could not moraly live with myself.

Governments can make as many laws as they want. But in truth there is only one set of laws I try to abide by, and those are the laws given to me by my maker. Anything else is nothing more than shackles upon my spirit.

Just my .02

Jeff

[anonypony]

Does the cause justify the means

Murnut favourite point...

It might surprise you to learn, that on both sides of the Atlantic, courts have ruled that in particular cases - the cause does indeed justify the means. Particularly when the cause is preventing an even bigger crime from being committed.

I can point to a very recent (September 12, 2008) and relevant legal cases:

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24331561-26040,00.html

“LONDON: The fight for the planet has broken new ground, with a British jury acquitting environmental activists who caused more than pound stg. 35,000 ($76,000) worth of damage to a coal-fired power station.

In a decision that will send chills down corporate spines across Britain, the jury decided the dangers of global warming were so enormous that the Greenpeace campaigners were justified in trying to close down Kingsnorth power station in Kent.”

What Gary did, can be viewed in similar vain...

Which brings me to another of Murnut favourite argument - how can Dan and Marcia’s testimony help? Let me spell it out: If Gary’s defence centres around the principle as in the above case, Dan and Marcia’s testimonies could be highly relevant!

However this is not the time to relax...the ptb are already sorting out a precedent to negate this possibility in the future. This is very well highlighted in the following Newsweek Web Exclusive, about another recent and relevant court case, where the Justice Department has threatened to file criminal charges against a former top National Archives official if he testifies as a defence witness in a high-profile national security case. (For full story See below)

Best wishes
Anony Pony



Shut Your Mouth ... Or Else
Why are federal prosecutors threatening a government secrets expert?

Michael Isikoff and Mark Hosenball
Updated: 4:36 PM ET Sep 9, 2008
http://www.newsweek.com/id/158107

The Justice Department has threatened to file criminal charges against a former top National Archives official if he testifies as a defense witness in a high-profile national security case.

J. William Leonard, who resigned last January as the U.S. government's chief expert on classified information, after a bitter clash with Vice President Dick Cheney's office, has been cooperating with defense lawyers in a case charging two former officials of the American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC) with improperly disclosing national security secrets, according to recently filed court papers.

The threat to file charges against Leonard—for allegedly violating federal ethics laws—was laid out by prosecutors in a public-court filing last spring, but got no public attention. In recent weeks, however, it has become the latest point of contention in a case that has generated enormous controversy in foreign policy and civil liberties circles.

The case charges that Steven Rosen, the former chief foreign policy aide at AIPAC, and Keith Weissman, the group's former chief Iran analyst, violated a World War I-era law, called the Espionage Act, when they allegedly passed along national security secrets to officials at the Israeli Embassy and to reporters. They had learned the alleged secrets in meetings with high-level government officials, including then national security adviser and now secretary of state, Condoleezza Rice. The two men are the first non-government officials ever to be prosecuted for disseminating "national defense information" under the law, raising concerns that others—including members of the news media—could ultimately face similar kinds of charges if the government's case is successful.

But the secret information Weissman and Rosen are being accused of passing along might not have been secret at all. Lawyers in the case told NEWSWEEK that, after reviewing a large volume of sealed evidence, Leonard was prepared to testify that the information at issue was either not properly classified or was already available from public sources, including newspaper accounts.

"This is a bizarre twist," said Steve Aftergood, a national security specialist for the Federation of American Scientists, who has followed the case closely. "If [Leonard] is right, not only are the defendants innocent, there was no crime."

As director of the National Archives' Information Security Oversight Office, Leonard was known as the government's "classification czar" because of his authority to enforce rules on the handling of classified information. He was also a strong critic of government classification practices, contending that far more information was branded "classified" (and therefore barred from public disclosure) than was justified.

But Justice Department prosecutors have aggressively struck back with an unusual maneuver to block Leonard from ever airing his views in court. After defense lawyers signaled their intention to use Leonard as an "expert witness," federal prosecutors filed a motion asserting that if Leonard appeared on the witness stand he could be criminally prosecuted under federal ethics laws.

The reason: Leonard had once briefly met with prosecutors on the AIPAC case when he still served in government. Therefore, the prosecutors now assert, he is covered by a federal ethics laws that bars former officials from appearing in court on behalf of a private party in any matter in which they had participated "personally and substantially" while they were in public office. "These ethics laws provide both criminal and civil penalties for violations," the prosecutors wrote in their motion. "Knowing violations of the law can be punished by not more than one year in jail and fine, and willful violations may be punished by up to five years in prison and fines." (A Justice Department official, who asked not to be identified, talking about an ongoing case, said that prosecutors did not view their motion as a threat, merely a statement of the applicable laws governing Leonard's cooperation with the defense lawyers.)

Defense attorneys and Leonard's lawyer, Mark Zaid, say the Justice Department's position is a stretch at best. Leonard never worked directly on the AIPAC case, they assert, and played no role in the decision to charge Rosen and Weissman with a crime. After the two men were indicted, government prosecutors met with Leonard for less than an hour in March 2006, to ask him if he would serve as a government witness to talk about the importance of protecting classified information. But when Leonard told them about the inconsistent ways in which national security information is classified, the prosecutors lost interest in using him as a witness and never contacted him again.

"It's an outrage" says Baruch Weiss, a defense lawyer representing Weissman, who is seeking to call Leonard as a witness in the case. "When they thought he might say what they wanted him to say, they said, 'Terrific.' When it turns out he's going to say something that is helpful to the defense, they say, "We're going to prosecute you for a crime.' I have never seen anything like this before."

Since then, defense lawyers have sought to subpoena Leonard, who, through his lawyer, Zaid, moved to squash the subpoena. The idea behind this legal back and forth was to force the judge in the case, T.S. Ellis III, to issue a ruling requiring Leonard to testify, thereby protecting him from criminal prosecution if he does. (Leonard had sought an ethics opinion from the Archives and was told he should seek a court ruling on the matter of his testimony.) There is no indication when Ellis might rule—or even when the AIPAC case might come to trial. Although it was scheduled to begin next month, lawyers say the date is certain to be moved back—most likely to next year—because of continued clashes over what national security secrets can be declassified and disclosed to the jury during the trial.

The case is being watched closely because of a decision by judge Ellis last year, in which he ruled that when the case does come to trial, current and former high- level government officials, including, Rice; former undersecretary of defense Douglas Feith; and former deputy secretary of state Richard Armitage; must testify about their own conversations with the two former AIPAC lobbyists. The defense lawyers have said they want to call them and other high-level current and former Bush administration officials as witnesses. The lawyers want to show that the kind of conversations Bush officials had with the AIPAC lobbyists (about Mideast issues, including the terrorist ties of the Iranian government) were common.

This isn't the first time Leonard has been the center of controversy. Leonard become embroiled in a bitter dispute with Cheney's chief of staff, David Addington, when he sought to conduct a mandatory inspection of the vice president's office to determine if it was complying with an executive order governing the handling of classified information. Addington refused to provide Leonard's aides with access, claiming that the vice president's office was not covered by the executive order because, technically speaking, Cheney was not part of the executive branch. Addington argued that, under the Constitution, the only official function of the vice president was to preside over the Senate so therefore Cheney was really part of the legislative branch. When Leonard challenged Addington's creative argument and sought an official Justice Department legal ruling on the matter, Addington sent an e-mail suggesting that Leonard's office (and his job) be abolished. The dispute, which was made public last year by House Government Reform committee chairman Rep. Henry Waxman, created an uproar [http://www.newsweek.com/id/81883/page/1]. Ultimately, Leonard told NEWSWEEK, it was a "contributing factor" in his decision to resign after 34 years of government service.

Terror Watch appears weekly on Newsweek.com

[Citizen Zeitgeist]

If Gary issued a Notice of Understanding and Intent & Claim of Right, stating that he revokes his consent to be governed as a corporate entity, it would be illegal for the US to extradite him, as they are doing so under the jurisdiction of Commercial Law, which relies upon his contractual consent.

Peace, freedom, love and light,

Citizen Zeitgeist
http://www.freetheplanet.info

[anonypony]

If Gary issued a Notice of Understanding and Intent & Claim of Right, stating that he revokes his consent to be governed as a corporate entity, it would be illegal for the US to extradite him, as they are doing so under the jurisdiction of Commercial Law, which relies upon his contractual consent.

Peace, freedom, love and light,

Citizen Zeitgeist
http://www.freetheplanet.info

Many thanks for that, it sounds interesting...

Can you tell us some more about the 'Notice of Understanding and Intent & Claim of Right, stating that one revokes his consent to be governed as a corporate entity' what it is, how it can be used, and if used what follows.

Could you point to references that expand it and maybe to other cases where this was used.

Best Wishes
Anony Pony

[murnut]

Does the cause justify the means

Murnut favourite point...

It might surprise you to learn, that on both sides of the Atlantic, courts have ruled that in particular cases - the cause does indeed justify the means. Particularly when the cause is preventing an even bigger crime from being committed.

I can point to a very recent (September 12, 2008) and relevant legal cases:

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24331561-26040,00.html

“LONDON: The fight for the planet has broken new ground, with a British jury acquitting environmental activists who caused more than pound stg. 35,000 ($76,000) worth of damage to a coal-fired power station.

In a decision that will send chills down corporate spines across Britain, the jury decided the dangers of global warming were so enormous that the Greenpeace campaigners were justified in trying to close down Kingsnorth power station in Kent.”

What Gary did, can be viewed in similar vain...

Which brings me to another of Murnut favourite argument - how can Dan and Marcia’s testimony help? Let me spell it out: If Gary’s defence centres around the principle as in the above case, Dan and Marcia’s testimonies could be highly relevant!

However this is not the time to relax...the ptb are already sorting out a precedent to negate this possibility in the future. This is very well highlighted in the following Newsweek Web Exclusive, about another recent and relevant court case, where the Justice Department has threatened to file criminal charges against a former top National Archives official if he testifies as a defence witness in a high-profile national security case. (For full story See below)

Best wishes
Anony Pony



Shut Your Mouth ... Or Else
Why are federal prosecutors threatening a government secrets expert?

Michael Isikoff and Mark Hosenball
Updated: 4:36 PM ET Sep 9, 2008
http://www.newsweek.com/id/158107

The Justice Department has threatened to file criminal charges against a former top National Archives official if he testifies as a defense witness in a high-profile national security case.

J. William Leonard, who resigned last January as the U.S. government's chief expert on classified information, after a bitter clash with Vice President Dick Cheney's office, has been cooperating with defense lawyers in a case charging two former officials of the American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC) with improperly disclosing national security secrets, according to recently filed court papers.

The threat to file charges against Leonard—for allegedly violating federal ethics laws—was laid out by prosecutors in a public-court filing last spring, but got no public attention. In recent weeks, however, it has become the latest point of contention in a case that has generated enormous controversy in foreign policy and civil liberties circles.

The case charges that Steven Rosen, the former chief foreign policy aide at AIPAC, and Keith Weissman, the group's former chief Iran analyst, violated a World War I-era law, called the Espionage Act, when they allegedly passed along national security secrets to officials at the Israeli Embassy and to reporters. They had learned the alleged secrets in meetings with high-level government officials, including then national security adviser and now secretary of state, Condoleezza Rice. The two men are the first non-government officials ever to be prosecuted for disseminating "national defense information" under the law, raising concerns that others—including members of the news media—could ultimately face similar kinds of charges if the government's case is successful.

But the secret information Weissman and Rosen are being accused of passing along might not have been secret at all. Lawyers in the case told NEWSWEEK that, after reviewing a large volume of sealed evidence, Leonard was prepared to testify that the information at issue was either not properly classified or was already available from public sources, including newspaper accounts.

"This is a bizarre twist," said Steve Aftergood, a national security specialist for the Federation of American Scientists, who has followed the case closely. "If [Leonard] is right, not only are the defendants innocent, there was no crime."

As director of the National Archives' Information Security Oversight Office, Leonard was known as the government's "classification czar" because of his authority to enforce rules on the handling of classified information. He was also a strong critic of government classification practices, contending that far more information was branded "classified" (and therefore barred from public disclosure) than was justified.

But Justice Department prosecutors have aggressively struck back with an unusual maneuver to block Leonard from ever airing his views in court. After defense lawyers signaled their intention to use Leonard as an "expert witness," federal prosecutors filed a motion asserting that if Leonard appeared on the witness stand he could be criminally prosecuted under federal ethics laws.

The reason: Leonard had once briefly met with prosecutors on the AIPAC case when he still served in government. Therefore, the prosecutors now assert, he is covered by a federal ethics laws that bars former officials from appearing in court on behalf of a private party in any matter in which they had participated "personally and substantially" while they were in public office. "These ethics laws provide both criminal and civil penalties for violations," the prosecutors wrote in their motion. "Knowing violations of the law can be punished by not more than one year in jail and fine, and willful violations may be punished by up to five years in prison and fines." (A Justice Department official, who asked not to be identified, talking about an ongoing case, said that prosecutors did not view their motion as a threat, merely a statement of the applicable laws governing Leonard's cooperation with the defense lawyers.)

Defense attorneys and Leonard's lawyer, Mark Zaid, say the Justice Department's position is a stretch at best. Leonard never worked directly on the AIPAC case, they assert, and played no role in the decision to charge Rosen and Weissman with a crime. After the two men were indicted, government prosecutors met with Leonard for less than an hour in March 2006, to ask him if he would serve as a government witness to talk about the importance of protecting classified information. But when Leonard told them about the inconsistent ways in which national security information is classified, the prosecutors lost interest in using him as a witness and never contacted him again.

"It's an outrage" says Baruch Weiss, a defense lawyer representing Weissman, who is seeking to call Leonard as a witness in the case. "When they thought he might say what they wanted him to say, they said, 'Terrific.' When it turns out he's going to say something that is helpful to the defense, they say, "We're going to prosecute you for a crime.' I have never seen anything like this before."

Since then, defense lawyers have sought to subpoena Leonard, who, through his lawyer, Zaid, moved to squash the subpoena. The idea behind this legal back and forth was to force the judge in the case, T.S. Ellis III, to issue a ruling requiring Leonard to testify, thereby protecting him from criminal prosecution if he does. (Leonard had sought an ethics opinion from the Archives and was told he should seek a court ruling on the matter of his testimony.) There is no indication when Ellis might rule—or even when the AIPAC case might come to trial. Although it was scheduled to begin next month, lawyers say the date is certain to be moved back—most likely to next year—because of continued clashes over what national security secrets can be declassified and disclosed to the jury during the trial.

The case is being watched closely because of a decision by judge Ellis last year, in which he ruled that when the case does come to trial, current and former high- level government officials, including, Rice; former undersecretary of defense Douglas Feith; and former deputy secretary of state Richard Armitage; must testify about their own conversations with the two former AIPAC lobbyists. The defense lawyers have said they want to call them and other high-level current and former Bush administration officials as witnesses. The lawyers want to show that the kind of conversations Bush officials had with the AIPAC lobbyists (about Mideast issues, including the terrorist ties of the Iranian government) were common.

This isn't the first time Leonard has been the center of controversy. Leonard become embroiled in a bitter dispute with Cheney's chief of staff, David Addington, when he sought to conduct a mandatory inspection of the vice president's office to determine if it was complying with an executive order governing the handling of classified information. Addington refused to provide Leonard's aides with access, claiming that the vice president's office was not covered by the executive order because, technically speaking, Cheney was not part of the executive branch. Addington argued that, under the Constitution, the only official function of the vice president was to preside over the Senate so therefore Cheney was really part of the legislative branch. When Leonard challenged Addington's creative argument and sought an official Justice Department legal ruling on the matter, Addington sent an e-mail suggesting that Leonard's office (and his job) be abolished. The dispute, which was made public last year by House Government Reform committee chairman Rep. Henry Waxman, created an uproar [http://www.newsweek.com/id/81883/page/1]. Ultimately, Leonard told NEWSWEEK, it was a "contributing factor" in his decision to resign after 34 years of government service.

Terror Watch appears weekly on Newsweek.com

You all have made excellent arguments....but.....if we are going to make a case that it is okay to break laws....just where do you draw the line, in the name of the cause?

Maybe Suicide bombing is okay?

I am saying it is a slippery slope, and when you over throw the current ptb, we are no better, and the cycle continues.

The new ptb are the same as the old.

Either we hold ourselves to a high moral standard, or we don't.

This is not the way to gain credibility in the mainstream population.

It only firmly cements us as fringe.
===============================

I did not post in this thread to create controversy.

I posted to try to bring some balance.

I have no problem with Gary being tried in the UK, but the UK did not charge him.

I still think it is foolish for Gary to go to trial, but that is his right.

Yes the US would have to prove it's case.

I also doubt the level of the cover up to include all that would have to be included to make this work....to get Gary.

There would have to be hundreds in on it.

Gary has no proof he saw anything.

Dan Burisch has no proof either.

If Gary really had seen anything, He would have just been disappeared, long before being charged.

To me it is not logical...on one hand many speculate to the level of evil that enforces the cover up, but on the other this evil is incompetent?

Really would the biggest secret in the history of mankind, be left on a computer network?

Is this super evil really so stupid?

I wish Gary well, and the rest of you also.

Maybe what is really occurring here, is a simple hacker who got caught, who does not want his penalty.

Many encourage Gary to fight, not because it is in Gary's best interest, but because it is in the conspiracy fringes best interest.

This to me is disingenuous.

[Citizen Zeitgeist]

When blessed living souls are incarnated as Human Beings on Planet Earth, they are almost always registered with the government of the country of their physical birth. Undisclosed to the parents is the knowledge that each new born is then allocated a bond number and a trust account with the IMF, valued at what they perceive to be our financial worth over the course of an average lifetime of tax-paying enslavement. This transaction is known as the Security of the Person and is bought and sold on various securities exchanges by the international banksters.

Each Human Being is worth the value of the country’s resources divided by the population at the time of their birth. This method is used by all members of the IMF to securitise interest payments, on what is commonly known as the ‘national debt'. This system has been created for the dual purposes of perpetuating the power and wealth of the international banksters, controlling governments and enslaving the rest of us with a debt that can never be repaid. Since all credit that is created out of nothing adds to the balance it is supposed to reduce, there is no possible way to eradicate the debt within the current system.

However, our registration at birth serves another purpose; it creates a corporate entity associated with our name, almost always denoted in capital letters. It also constitutes the legal consent of parents to the registration of their children as the 'chattal property' of the state’s creditors (the banksters), under the jurisdiction of Admiralty Law, also known as Commercial Law, or the law of the seas.

Withiin the boundaries this legal jurisdiction, all matters are matters of contract, and no contract is legally enforcable unless full disclosure exists between the parties and provable consent has been appropriately given. Birth certificates are, in reality, the registration documents of our enslavement, since they register our names as future government employees, whom, until such time that we start paying government taxes, will be considered a ward of the state.

For the avoidance of doubt, it is my considered opinion that registering the birth of our children waives all legal rights we might think we have over the lives of our offspring, meaning that most of us are not actually the legal guardians of our own children. It is also the means by which the government takes possession of our share of the nation's wealth, before surrendering it to the banksters.

Paradoxically, this little known universal deception is what invalidates the government’s contract with the corporate entity associated with our name, or the legal person. The fact that our parents are never furnished with these crucial terms and conditions represents a clear case of non-disclosure. Furthermore, this material breach renders every contract that we have ever entered into with a government agency unenforcable, but only once we revoke our consent to be governed by issuing a Notice of Understanding and Intent & Claim of Right.

To illuminate this complicated concept by way of example, when we apply to the DVLC for our driving license, by signing our name on the form we are in reality granting our consent to be governed by any punitive statutes, acts or codes they might impose upon our legal person’s right to free movement, when there is no law that compels us to apply for a driving license. It is at this point that we must recognise the difference between a statute and the law.

Statutes, acts, bye-laws and codes are rules drawn up by a corporation that are given the force of the law, but they only apply to its employees, partners and executives. The law, or more accurately, Common Law, or the law of the land, has been constructed to protect all Human Beings living on Planet Earth. We are all at liberty to act according to our own free will, provided we do not infringe the ability of others to do the same. In other words, as long as we don’t infringe the the rights to life, liberty and property of another Human Being, no judge has the legal authority to order us to do anything, including appear in court, unless we grant them jurisdiction by entering into a contract with them.

There are a myriad of ways in which we are tricked into granting our legal consent. When we accept a traffic violation in order to avoid going to court, or to avoid being charged a heavier fine, we are confirming our consent to be governed according to the Department of Transport’s fee schedule for the public highway, upon which we already have a Common Law right to travel freely.

Similarly, when we admit a speeding offence to the clerk to the justices, we are granting our consent to be bound by the verdict of the court that hears the charges against us. Just agreeing to be ‘the defendant’, or standing in the dock, grants our consent to be judged according the ruling of a de facto commercial tribuneral, that has no lawful jurisdiction over Human Beings, only the legal persons associated with them.

It is our failure to recognise these crucial distinctions that grants the government the legal right to hold us as collateral against the national debt. It also represents the reason why it has been so easy for the Global Collectivists to pass so many draconian statutes in North America and the European Union; they are merely the rules that govern corporations and their employees and do not require the consent of parliament, since they are merely corporate rules that are given the force of law by mutual consent of the parties.

By establishing a Notice of Undertanding and Intent & Claim of Right, witnessed by a Notary Public and delivered to the government by recorded post, provided it is not rebutted under oath and full commercial liablity, under penalty of perjury, within the stated time constraints, lawful excuse can be established that enables us to revoke our consent to be governed by the rules of a soulless corporation with a similar name to our country of birth.

This is the means by which we can all reclaim our individual sovereignty from those who have enslaved us for their own gain, as well as the method that Gary McKinnon can employ to render the extradition proceedings illegal, even at this extremely late stage.

I will post some links to relevant documents, definitions and success stories following this post. Suffice to say, there is credible anecdotal evidence to suggest that even legal proceedings issued by the most powerful military-industrial corporation on Earth can be halted in their tracks.

A good place to start researching is:

http://www.thinkfree.ca

This essay is the considered opinion of the author and does not constitute legal advice. All rights reserved.

Peace, love and light to all,

Citizen Zeitgeist
http://www.freetheplanet.info

[Lochinvar]

.....if we are going to make a case that it is okay to break laws....just where do you draw the line,



There are people on this site that are/were employed by the people that run the UK (and probably the US) to break the law for a living (most often to the detriment of the masses). I think you are living in a bubble of naivete.

[initialstate]

when the law is an ass, you should kick it.

[murnut]

There are people on this site that are/were employed by the people that run the UK (and probably the US) to break the law for a living (most often to the detriment of the masses). I think you are living in a bubble of naivete.

I just won't stoop to their level.

Again no one answers the question on where do you draw the line.

Once you do what they do, what's the difference?

EDIT

Am I really so naive to believe that not all conspiracy theories are true?

Certainly all is not what it seems, I would agree.

But just WHAT is true and WHAT is disinfo?

Is it not possible that some of these whistleblower's are feeding disinfo?

At this time, we must all decide for ourselves, and not fall into the trap of group think.

If Ufology wants to be anything more than a fringe counter culture, then we should be embracing the real heroes.

Like Leslie Kean, James Fox, Bruce Maccabee, Robert Collins, etc.

When whatever is called the truth comes, wrapped in the tag of disclosure, many just won't believe for different reasons.

Some will say it does not go far enough(Ufo community fringe)

Joe Sixpack really does not care, and won't believe the proof that is offered, unless there is some type of demonstration.

So what is the incentive for the Govts to disclose?

Disclosure is lose-lose for those in charge.

Govts are not about truth, they are about control.

So why believe or trust anything with regards to disclosure from the govt?

[nomadrush]

It may only be a matter of days now before one of the biggest breaches of human rights in recent years takes place. Abu Hamza a known terroist stays here in the UK whilst Gary McKinnon is extradited!

Our government is throwing one of it's own citizens to the lions and turninga blind eye to a massive injustice.

Whether Gary is guilty or not, he does NOT deserve the potential 70 YEARS in prison he is being threatened with in the USA.

His "crime" was committed from a house in North London and therefore he should be tried HERE int he UK.

We are not letting this rest, we have been writing to everyone, MP's, the Mayor of London, The Home Secretary, Obama, McCain and even celebrities in the hope someone will stand up and speak for this young man with Ashbergers Syndrome.

Don't give up everyone, the battle is not yet lost!

Ross Hemsworth
http://www.nowthatsweird.co.uk

[murnut]

It may only be a matter of days now before one of the biggest breaches of human rights in recent years takes place. Abu Hamza a known terroist stays here in the UK whilst Gary McKinnon is extradited!

Our government is throwing one of it's own citizens to the lions and turninga blind eye to a massive injustice.

Whether Gary is guilty or not, he does NOT deserve the potential 70 YEARS in prison he is being threatened with in the USA.

His "crime" was committed from a house in North London and therefore he should be tried HERE int he UK.

We are not letting this rest, we have been writing to everyone, MP's, the Mayor of London, The Home Secretary, Obama, McCain and even celebrities in the hope someone will stand up and speak for this young man with Ashbergers Syndrome.

Don't give up everyone, the battle is not yet lost!

Ross Hemsworth
http://www.nowthatsweird.co.uk


To be tried in the UK, would not the UK have to actually charge him?

To date the UK has not charged Gary.

His offense was not committed against the UK.

Based on Us sentencing guidelines, I doubt he gets more than 2 or 3 years....max 5.

How come many of you are against Gary cutting a plea bargain arrangement?

He was offered 6 mos in the US prison and the remain 18 in the UK.

He turned it down?

Why?

[murnut]

18. Mr Stein confirmed that he was authorised to offer the appellant a deal in return for not contesting extradition and for agreeing to plead guilty to two of the counts laid against him of “fraud and related activity in connection with computers". On this basis it was likely that a sentence of 3-4 years (more precisely 37-46 months), probably at the shorter end of that bracket, would be passed and that after serving 6-12 months in the US, the appellant would be repatriated to complete his sentence in the UK. In this event his release date would be determined by reference to the UK’s remission rules namely, in the case of a sentence not exceeding four years, release at the discretion of the parole board after serving half the nominal sentence, release as of right at the two-thirds point. On that basis, he might serve a total of only some eighteen months to two years.

19. The predicted sentence of 3-4 years was based upon sentencing guidelines themselves based upon a points system. The prosecution would recommend to the court a particular points level which the court would be likely to accept. Similarly the prosecutor would recommend to the section of the US Department of Justice responsible for administering the Convention on the Transfer of Sentenced Persons that the appellant be transferred and this recommendation too was in practice likely to be accepted.

20. If, however, the appellant chose not to cooperate, and were then extradited and convicted, he might expect to receive a sentence of 8-10 years, possibly longer, and would not be repatriated to the UK for any part of it. He would accordingly serve the whole sentence in a US prison (possibly high security) with at best some 15% remission.

21. Mr Lawson clearly recalls the prospect of repatriation being stated to depend upon the appellant’s application for transfer being supported by the prosecution. If the support were withheld as it would be if extradition was contested, there was said to be no prospect of repatriation, a refusal by the Department of Justice being unreviewable in the US courts.

22. The proposed “deal” was conditional upon the appellant entering into a form of Plea Agreement, a lengthy document including the provision in para 4 that:

“the defendant is aware that the defendant’s sentence will be imposed in accordance with the Sentencing Guidelines and Policy Statements. The defendant is aware that the Court has jurisdiction and authority to impose any sentence within the statutory maximum set for the offense (s) to which the defendant pleads guilty. The defendant is aware that the Court has not yet determined a sentence. The defendant is also aware that any estimate of the probable sentencing range under the sentencing guidelines that the defendant may have received from the defendant’s counsel, the United States, or the probation office, is a prediction, not a promise, and is not binding on the United States, the probation office, or the Court. The United States makes no promise or representation concerning what sentence the defendant will receive, and the defendant cannot withdraw a guilty plea based upon the actual sentence.”

The Plea Agreement included a further term in para 12 that the US Attorney’s Offices respectively for the Eastern District of Virginia and the District of New Jersey “will not oppose the defendant’s application to transfer any sentence imposed by the Court made pursuant to the Council of Europe Convention".


23. Subsequent to the Divisional Court’s judgment but prior to Mr Lawson’s statement an affidavit was sworn by Robert Wiechering on behalf of the US Attorney’s Offices for both districts stating that they “will not oppose any prisoner transfer application that may be made by Gary McKinnon (if extradited and convicted) based, in whole or in part, on his refusal to waive or consent to extradition from the United Kingdom.”

24. Following the meeting of 14 April 2003 Ms Todner took advice from an American defense lawyer and, subsequently, the appellant declined the “deal".


http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld200708/ldjudgmt/jd080730/mckinn-1.htm

[murnut]

According to the House of Lords decision above, the plea agreement was in writing.


Disinfo from Gary?

Ya don't say.

Should I list all of the inaccuracies coming from Gary's supporters?

[anonypony]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7697103931283962361&hl=en

[murnut]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7697103931283962361&hl=en


All of this to get Gary?

Maybe it is what it is, ....Gary got caught.


Is it in Gary's best interest to make a plea arrangement, or go to trial?

[nomadrush]

You're missing the whole point here....#

The alleged "crime" was committed from a house in North London and that means that under British law he should be tried and sentenced if found guilty, in the UK, that is not up for dispute it's a fact of British law.

Despite Gary initially pleading guilty, the Crown Prosecution Service failed to make a strong enough case to go to court, therefore had the US not enforced the terms of a very one-sided extradition treaty signed by a BLIND home secretary, he would probably have walked free by now, or got away with a Police caution.

Under US law each indictment carries a possible sentence of 10 years and there are as I understand it seven charges. These will not run concurrently under US law, but back to back. So my understanding is a possible sentence of 70 years!!!

If Gary is extradited and sentenced, it will set a very dangerous precedent for all British citizens who can then be shipped out whenever Uncle Sam demands.

In the UK, a British citizen is "innocent until proven guilty" and that does not appear to be happening here!

Ross Hemsworth
http://www.nowthatsweird.co.uk
English and Proud of it!

[murnut]

I understand your point.


No hacker has ever gotten any sentence more than 10 years in the States.



I am sorry that Gary's appeals to the courts of the UK and Europe have failed.

But the 70 year thing is an exaggeration,

More disinfo from Gary's team include, but not limited to.

Gary is being tried as an enemy combatant....NOT

Gary faces the death penalty.....NOT

Gary is going to Guantanamo.....NOT

I am sorry Gary did these acts without considering the consequences.

I am sure that many have committed acts thinking the punishment would be one thing, only to find out it is another.

Why is Gary not responsible for his own actions?

If you read the house of Lords decision, it is unlikely Gary get more than 8 to 10 years.

Yes Gary is entitled to his day in court.

But if found guilty, he faces the maximum time.

This is the same for all defendants.

Some are offered plea bargains, some are not.

Gary was offered a fair plea bargain, and he turned it down.

Are the Ptb responsible for this?

Is Gary not responsible for his own actions?

Did you read the House of Lords Decision?

My question is, why do so many want Gary to go to trial, against his best interest?

If 6 month plea bargain was offered again, 6mos usa minimum security jail, and 18 mos uk jail, would we be encouraging him to take the deal, or go to trial?

[murnut]

Under US law each indictment carries a possible sentence of 10 years and there are as I understand it seven charges. These will not run concurrently under US law, but back to back. So my understanding is a possible sentence of 70 years!!!

If Gary is extradited and sentenced, it will set a very dangerous precedent for all British citizens who can then be shipped out whenever Uncle Sam demands.

In the UK, a British citizen is "innocent until proven guilty" and that does not appear to be happening here!

Ross Hemsworth
http://www.nowthatsweird.co.uk
English and Proud of it!


20. If, however, the appellant chose not to cooperate, and were then extradited and convicted, he might expect to receive a sentence of 8-10 years, possibly longer, and would not be repatriated to the UK for any part of it. He would accordingly serve the whole sentence in a US prison (possibly high security) with at best some 15% remission.

Gary has not had a trial yet on the US charges., the trial occurs , and evidence is presented.

The extradition trial has occurred, and Gary lost .

[draconine]

“US foreign policy is akin to government-sponsored terrorism these days . . . It was not a mistake that there was a huge security stand down on September 11 last year . . . I am SOLO. I will continue to disrupt at the highest levels . . .” “

That pretty much closes the case. I believe that Gary broke into the most classified computer networks on earth only with the best of intentions. And perhaps this whole case is just to show what happens when you break into such places... but Gary is an adult and should have been prepared for this possibility, or shouldn't have been hacking in the first place.

[nomadrush]

20. If, however, the appellant chose not to cooperate, and were then extradited and convicted, he might expect to receive a sentence of 8-10 years, possibly longer, and would not be repatriated to the UK for any part of it. He would accordingly serve the whole sentence in a US prison (possibly high security) with at best some 15% remission.

Gary has not had a trial yet on the US charges., the trial occurs , and evidence is presented.

The extradition trial has occurred, and Gary lost .


The Law Lords got this wrong as they took this to mean the indictments would if found guilty, run concurrently. This has been a well-publicised balls-up by the Lords.

The trial has NOT taken place, we have only heard the presentations as to why Gary should not be extradited.

In my opinion, there has been a major cover-up here, no real press attention and no-one daring to stand-up up to the Americans and saying NO you can't have him ,he will be tried here!

It makes me wonder if amongst the stuff Gary allegedly downloaded, there may be some evidence so damaging, that the US do not want it presented as evidence in a UK courtroom for all to see????

Ross

[murnut]

What hacker has gotten 70 years?

What hacker has gotten more than 10?

Most are under 5.

Many plead out to less than 2.

In order for Gary to be tried in the UK, the UK would have to charge him.

This has not happened.

Besides, the UK does not evidence of a crime committed against the UK.

Gary should have hacked the UK military network.

For all of Gary's efforts, he in fact has no proof of anything he claims.

If he had any real proof, we would have never of heard of him, he would have been "heart attacked"

It goes against logic that the Ptb would want this out in the open don't you think?

It goes against logic that the biggest secret in the history of mankind would be available to common hackers.

Since Gary decided he did not like his potential punishment, he has been "selling" his story.

You bought it.

But there is little reality in it.... In my opinion.

[Bill Ryan]

Hi, Murmut:

We'll always welcome intelligent, well-informed passion here, but regardless of your passion to criticize Gary, and your presumed intelligence, you don't seem to be well-informed.

I've not yet read every post of yours here, but I believe I get the gist. You've certainly got your teeth into this for some reason that is not clear to me.

As best I know, Gary has never personally made any of the claims (re his legal situation) that you seem to be assigning to him. These are the conjectures of other pundits in the UFO community.

Gary is legally prohibited from using a computer. He can't even send an e-mail himself. He does not post on any forums. He does not manage his own website. As best I understand, his mother, Janis, does that.

It's legitimate to debate the interesting issues, but not to criticize him personally. That's way out of order. It sounds as if you've never seen a single interview he gave, which is puzzling because I assume you would have informed yourself well before posting.

As a separate issue, Gary has no proof of anything which he saw or read on screen. He was using a dial-up modem and was not able to download anything (although I believe he did try, but it took too long.) He readily admits he broke the law.

I have two questions:

1) Can you help us understand where you're coming from?

2) (as Einstein would have called a thought experiment) - If Gary was here, what would you like to ask him? (Between us, we MAY be able to answer fairly on his behalf.)

Very best wishes, Bill

[JoinTheFun]

I would like to ask him if he holds any bargaining chips.

[King Lear]

I would ask him:
If he, or another one could make sketches of what he saw.

But probably, that only will happen after his trial.

[Bill Ryan]

I would like to ask him if he holds any bargaining chips.

As best I know, he doesn't... except that Dan Burisch and Marci McDowell have stated that they will testify under penalty of perjury about the details of the secret space program - if called to do so.

That's a real wild card that might actually cut both ways... it COULD mean that it never goes to trial (i.e. gets delayed forever).

To King Lear's question: the only images he saw, as best I recall, were 'unairbrushed' lunar photos. They were clearly in two folders: the original images, and the same images when 'treated'. [My paraphrase - I don't recall what Gary said the folder names were.]

He found one original and was trying to download it on his 56k modem, but was interrupted and never completed the download. It was a very large file.

Very best, Bill

[King Lear]

To King Lear's question: the only images he saw, as best I recall, were 'unairbrushed' lunar photos. They were clearly in two folders: the original images, and the same images when 'treated'. [My paraphrase - I don't recall what Gary said the folder names were.]



Dear Bill,
I don't rember if it was in your interview or the others he gave on tv, but he mentioned to have seen a kind of space station, of that he was pretty much sure that it wasn't earth-made.


Something like that:
http://img185.imageshack.us/img185/2292/indiengtterschiffefp3.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[murnut]

Hi, Murmut:

We'll always welcome intelligent, well-informed passion here, but regardless of your passion to criticize Gary, and your presumed intelligence, you don't seem to be well-informed.

I've not yet read every post of yours here, but I believe I get the gist. You've certainly got your teeth into this for some reason that is not clear to me.

As best I know, Gary has never personally made any of the claims (re his legal situation) that you seem to be assigning to him. These are the conjectures of other pundits in the UFO community.

Gary is legally prohibited from using a computer. He can't even send an e-mail himself. He does not post on any forums. He does not manage his own website. As best I understand, his mother, Janis, does that.

It's legitimate to debate the interesting issues, but not to criticize him personally. That's way out of order. It sounds as if you've never seen a single interview he gave, which is puzzling because I assume you would have informed yourself well before posting.

As a separate issue, Gary has no proof of anything which he saw or read on screen. He was using a dial-up modem and was not able to download anything (although I believe he did try, but it took too long.) He readily admits he broke the law.

I have two questions:

1) Can you help us understand where you're coming from?

2) (as Einstein would have called a thought experiment) - If Gary was here, what would you like to ask him? (Between us, we MAY be able to answer fairly on his behalf.)

Very best wishes, Bill

Hi Bill

Great site you have here.

I am a great admirer of what you and Kerry have done, are doing, and will do.

By the way...it is murNut, with an N.

I am disappointed that you would make a comment about me being uninformed, without reading my other posts.

I hope that Gary does as little time as possible, or none at all.

I don't think this is likely though.

If you would read some of my other posts on this matter, you would see that my main criticism is of Gary's supporters...speaking it would seem on his behalf.


I don't believe the ends justifies the means.

Some here do.

The circle must be broken, IMO, other wise how are we any different than those we despise?

I do have some problems, with some of the misinformation that has been floated by those that have identified themselves as Gary supporters.

Gary is not a terrorist, and was offered a fair plea arrangement in my opinion.

He declined, and this is his right.

If the issue is that the UK should not allow Gary to be extradited, that is a different matter.

I have no real opinion...other than Gary has had his day in court, 3 times on this issue, and lost.

Are all of these judges in on the conspiracy to get Gary?

Yes, I have seen multiple interviews of Gary, and read many news accounts.

If I am being asked if I believe Gary is credible, no, sadly I don't.

I don't believe secret ufo/space files are on computer networks.

Just my opinion, I could be wrong.

The biggest secret in the history of the world on a network?

I just don't think it is logical to believe this is true.

I am not aware that I have criticized him personally.

Maybe I questioned some of his decisions?

I have no questions for Gary.

Many have posted that Gary is a hero.

I can't say I agree.

The ufo community has hero's that don't break the law.

What about those that break their security oath, you might say?

Who has been prosecuted for this?

Gary's supporter making wild claims, hurts the credibility of the ufo community as a whole.

I believe only the best cases, that have the best witnesses, with supporting documentation, should be the cases that are debated in the public.


I feel bad for Gary, but time to man up.

[anonypony]

I don't believe the ends justifies the means.
Some here do.

Dear Murnut
You are of course entitled to believe anything you like, but that does not necessarily make it true or factual.

The fact is, as I have illustrated in an earlier post, the legal system in both the UK and the USA does not agree with your believe!

The courts on both side of the Atlantic have ruled on a number of occasions, that in some cases 'the end justifies the means'. I am afraid 'your believe' - does not come into it.

If you asked 'Does ANY cause ALWAYS justify ANY means'? I suspect the courts will say NO! But it seems, that when 'damage' to property - is the only injury, and the cause is to prevent, or expose an even bigger crime, the courts after considering the particular case and it's merits, do sometimes rule, that the ends justifies the means.

When you keep on insisting that YOUR believes are better or juster then others while your believes do not align with the law as it stands, you are in fact mirroring the behaviour you are attributing to those who don't agree with your views - 'the supporters'.

What we also need to bear in mind here, is that Gary admitted ONLY to un authorised access and ALWAYS denied the accusations of DAMAGE.

What happened to 'one is innocent until proven guilty'?

[King Lear]

I'm astonished of the manner how many energy murnut does expense on this thread.:yikes:
Posting yards-long posts and ongoing to criticise Gary's behaviour and our understanding of law.

There are only a few explenations:
- He has to be a Neo-Con
- an Ex-CIA agent
- an Ex-NASA employee who's computer got hacked and "damaged" and he disgraced
- or he is just a guy who's banking account got hacked by Gary;)


And Yoda says:

The

Enter

Key,

he

seems

to

love,

young

Padawan.
http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/384/250pxyodaop8.jpg

[anonypony]

"I do have some problems, with some of the misinformation that has been floated by those that have identified themselves as Gary supporters.

Gary... was offered a fair plea arrangement in my opinion. He declined, and this is his right."...



Dear Murnut and all

Was it a fair plea?

The question of 'a fair plea' and the notion that it was guarantied in writing, something you repeat ad infini with an air of authority, is where you are grossly misinformed in my view.

I would be very interested if you could provide any documented EVIDENCE to support this claim. Quoting the House of Lords decision, is not sufficient. and here is why:
When Gary was offered the plea he was inclined to take it. However when he asked for all the promises offered, to be guarantied in writing, the prosecutors refused. Within the bundle of documents submitted to the courts, there is a letter from the prosecutors, which clearly states that they reserve the right to declare Gary a terrorist and reserve the right to prosecute and lock him up ‘tanamo style. This letter was part of the evidence submitted to the house of lords hearing, it was never refuted as authentic, and it was discussed as part of the hearing, but despite it all, there is no mention of it in the HL ruling.
With this information in mind what do you think - Is that a fair plea?

Can we trust this people?

Lets look at another similar case, that of Kevin David Mitnick - he was left to rot in jail for four and a half years pre-trial, until he agreed to a plea! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_Mitnick

In other words there is a great chance, that there is never going to be any court case, UNLESS there is a guilty plea!

Should one plea if s/he did not do the crime they are accused of?

This is a huge question. What would you do? (question to all)

[anonypony]

I'm astonished of the manner how many energy murnut does expense on this thread.:yikes:
Posting yards-long posts and ongoing to criticise Gary's behaviour and our understanding of law.

There are only a few explenations:
- He has to be a Neo-Con
- an Ex-CIA agent
- an Ex-NASA employee who's computer got hacked and "damaged" and he disgraced
- or he is just a guy who's banking account got hacked by Gary;)




Or just the thought police paid to post?
:bash:

In any case I am grateful, as I said before, it gives me an opportunity to talk about it taking it a point at a time...
:trumpet:

[murnut]

I'm astonished of the manner how many energy murnut does expense on this thread.:yikes:
Posting yards-long posts and ongoing to criticise Gary's behaviour and our understanding of law.

There are only a few explenations:
- He has to be a Neo-Con
- an Ex-CIA agent
- an Ex-NASA employee who's computer got hacked and "damaged" and he disgraced
- or he is just a guy who's banking account got hacked by Gary;)





I was responding to Bill Ryan.

He asked me to reply and I have.

I respect Bill and owed that to him.

I am none of the above.

Plea arrangements are never guaranteed, in the US, they must be approved by the court.

But they are approved as written, 99% of the time.

[Phoenix]

Just in case you missed it!


You're missing the whole point here....#

The alleged "crime" was committed from a house in North London and that means that under British law he should be tried and sentenced if found guilty, in the UK, that is not up for dispute it's a fact of British law.

[murnut]

Dear Murnut and all

Was it a fair plea?

The question of 'a fair plea' and the notion that it was guarantied in writing, something you repeat ad infini with an air of authority, is where you are grossly misinformed in my view.

I would be very interested if you could provide any documented EVIDENCE to support this claim. Quoting the House of Lords decision, is not sufficient. and here is why:
When Gary was offered the plea he was inclined to take it. However when he asked for all the promises offered, to be guarantied in writing, the prosecutors refused. Within the bundle of documents submitted to the courts, there is a letter from the prosecutors, which clearly states that they reserve the right to declare Gary a terrorist and reserve the right to prosecute and lock him up ‘tanamo style. This letter was part of the evidence submitted to the house of lords hearing, it was never refuted as authentic, and it was discussed as part of the hearing, but despite it all, there is no mention of it in the HL ruling.
With this information in mind what do you think - Is that a fair plea?

Can we trust this people?

Lets look at another similar case, that of Kevin David Mitnick - he was left to rot in jail for four and a half years pre-trial, until he agreed to a plea! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_Mitnick

In other words there is a great chance, that there is never going to be any court case, UNLESS there is a guilty plea!

Should one plea if s/he did not do the crime they are accused of?

This is a huge question. What would you do? (question to all)



Thanks for proving my point....he did 5 years...not 70.

Gary has admitted the hacking.

When I get a speeding ticket, I pay the fine

[murnut]

Just in case you missed it!

So why again was he not charged by the UK?

[mikey]

Hi people...with all due respect to gary i have got to say this thread is becoming ridiculous.
I think the majority of people (please shout if u think otherwise) on here and in general who are ''aware'' actually want to see this man not extradited either unjustly or unfairly...which seems to be what is happening.
Murnut, i mean no disrespect in any way but i find ur ongoing posts and arguments quite repetitive and dismayingly suspicious. I am by no means hailing gary as a hero nor am i ignoring the ''real'' heroes in the ufo community but one has to ask if u can not see how unjust this case has gone then one can only assume it is a matter of ur awareness on gary mckinnon's case and/or the global/universal/multiversal issues and tptb in general. It is a struggle to see how u can persistantly argue in somewhat of an inhumanely, negative manner and still wish for the best result for gary in his case.

Again i stress, i mean no disrespect or offense to u or anybody and whole-heartedly apologise if iv done so...

Whatever happens to gary is happening to us...we are all we are

peace
bananaman

[EchosLament]

To me, this is civil disobedience.

Rosa Parks was arrested for civil disobedience.

If we never break the unconstitutional laws and we always stay within the confines of laws that harm other humans... we are no better than those who would oppress us.

I am not saying that this is on the same level as civil rights, but they know and they aren't telling US... the people.

The Governments keep secrets from us, the people. The same people who they are supposed to be representing.

[murnut]

H
It is a struggle to see how u can persistantly argue in somewhat of an inhumanely, negative manner and still wish for the best result for gary in his case.



What have I suggested that is inhumane?


Govts have secrets, govts will always have secrets.

I don't like it, but it is a fact.

Sorry my opinion have offended.

Apparently, my opinion is not the "approved" opinion.

Do you realize this is exactly what the "other" side does as well?

[murnut]

Lets look at another similar case, that of Kevin David Mitnick - he was left to rot in jail for four and a half years pre-trial, until he agreed to a plea! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_Mitnick



Are you sure this is the case you want to use as an example?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_VYWefmy34

[Colin]

Ok guys We've had some very valid arguments, both for, and against the way Gary is being treated, but now we appear to be going round in circles, and I think the thread has run it's course.

So, I've created a Poll (http://%3Cbr%20/%3E%0Ahttp://www.projectavalon.net/forum/showthread.php?t=2327) which will run for 24 hours.

http://www.projectavalon.net/forum/showthread.php?t=2327

There are 2 options:


Close the thread, we agree to disagree, time to move on
Leave the thread open, more discussion is needed



I cant stress enough that this is in no way any form of censorship.

Please vote guys, it's your choice :original:

[bluestix]

Any slave with the audacity to question the masters is sure to be whipped.


It is terrible and sad but such is the nature of the Babylon Slavery System (http://www.google.com/search?q=babylon+slavery+system).




Rasta free the people
Over hills and valleys too
Don't let them fool you
Don't believe one minute that they are with you
Jah free the people
Over hills and valleys too
Don't let them fool you
Don't believe for a minute that they are with you

[atama]

don't close the thread!
closing this thread is like giving up on Gary. I'm sure the guys calling Gary a 'criminal' would love that.

They can put 1 cop on here to ruin a thread and it's closed? that's making it real easy for 'em.

[anonypony]

I think it is a good idea to keep it open.
The information on the thread is valuable and informative.
The fact that there is no agreement, serves the exploration of the many issues this case presents.

I say keep it on!

However I would ask that we debate it in a mature way, repeating oneself and shouting loud does not make someone right.:original:

[murnut]

Musado....

I end posting in this thread.


Any slave with the audacity to question the masters is sure to be whipped.




Heaven forbid I should question the ufo "masters"

[Orion11]

love the drama eh?

crazyness.

why should it even matter to anyone if this thread is here?

if your tired of it.. stop clicking on the link for it.

[murnut]

Sorry...one more

Steve Bass says it better than me.

http://www.ufodigest.com/news/0908/Ufology.html

[anonypony]

A new thread - Gary Mckinnon | News and Call for Action
For those who are interested in the latest news about Gary's case,
or wish to help Gary by providing useful information,
or joining in protest,
let this space be the hub for this purpose.
http://www.projectavalon.net/forum/showthread.php?t=2340

Gary McKinnon Protest
4:00 pm, Sunday, 28 September
Outside the US Embassy
Grosvener Sq. London

A letter from Janis (Gary's mum)
Tuesday, September 16, 2008

Dear All

Any day now, my son, Gary McKinnon, could face extradition from Britain to the United States where he would stand trial for hacking into US government computers and could face a sentence of sixty years (Charged with 7 counts, proposed sentence Ten Years Per Count)

Gary has recently been diagnosed as suffering from Lifetime Aspergers Syndrome, which is why I and his family and his many friends and supporters around the world are arguing that Gary should be allowed to stay in the U.K and face the courts in the country where the offence, if offence there was, was committed.

The United States authorities waited two years to call for Gary's arrest because of a then unratified, unsigned extradition treaty between the two countries which would make it easier for them to have a British citizen sent for trial in the US. Yet, when he was first arrested in London, Gary was told he would probably get a sentence of community service for his hacking activities. He naively admitted computer misuse before he had engaged a lawyer and without a lawyer even being present. We were still unaware that he had Aspergers Syndrome.

Gary gained no leniency for his honesty and on the contrary, his extradition has been relentlessly pursued by the British and American authorities, despite the crown prosecution service (CPS) declining to prosecute Gary in Britain. This attitude will hardly encourage British citizens to come clean regarding any crimes they may have committed. If no leniency or consideration is given when a person accused of a crime immediately and openly tells the truth, there is little point in them admitting to anything.

The CPS refusal to prosecute Gary here was clearly done to allow the Americans to arrest him two and a half years later, once the one-sided extradition treaty was introduced and then made retrospective. In addition, in order to indict Gary, the US authorities had to claim a specific amount of financial damage. Gary has always denied causing damage and without proof of such, the U.S could not prosecute him. Then, just a month ago the U.S prosecutors stated in an interview, that once Gary was extradited, the most difficult thing to prove would be the damage!

Several weeks ago the goal posts were changed yet again when the U.S brought in a new law whereby no proof of damage was required where military computers were concerned. For the American law to then have been conveniently changed at such a crucial time, so that proof of damage is no longer required speaks volumes and does little to give us any faith in such a "legal" system. (Gary has always denied the alleged damage)

Surely as a vulnerable adult with Aspergers Syndrome, Gary should be allowed to stay in the U.K and face the justice system of the country where his alleged offence took place. So why is Gary's Extradition still being sought? He admitted computer mis-use six an a half years ago and the U.S have changed the law so that they now have no need to prove the alleged damage. So why is there now any need for a trial?

Gary could be sentenced to serve an appropriate time in an open prison in the U.K

If we can somehow keep up the pressure, the Home Office just might rule in gary's favour, as they are now apparently re-considering his case.

If this happened Gary & Lucy (and us "Janis & Wilson") could all have our lives back again.

Every morning for six and a half years we have woken up gripped by fear at the prospect of Gary being extradited and spending most of his life in a hard line U.S prison, or even dying there.

On most days it's difficult to wake up and put one foot in front of the other and this intense long term stress and fear has taken its toll of us all for the past six and a half years. This in itself has been a sentence of continual Torment.

Please try and come to the protest and get everyone you can to attend, as it just might change things for the better and at the moment the only hope we have is to draw attention to the injustice, extremely flawed treaty and proposed disproportionate sentence

This is not just about Gary; it's about the fact that any U.K citizen can now be extradited to America on the strength of an allegation alone. These allegations are presented to our courts as Facts and accepted as such by our courts and Law Lords without the accused having any opportunity to challenge or rebut the allegations. Our courts and Law Lords have publicly pronounced Gary guilty of Damage to military computer systems without him having the benefit of a trial in which to challenge the allegations. This has severely prejudiced any trial Gary might have in the future.

This treaty was signed in secret under the "Queens Prerogative" by David Blunket a day prior to Parliamentary recess, so that no debate by Parliament was able to take place.

This so called treaty was not signed by the U.S and despite the fact that it did not come into effect until April 2007, it was made retrospective in 2004 to allow them to request the Extradition of my son Gary and others without any proof having to be shown. A Prima Facie case was effectively dispensed with.

How can a treaty by its very nature be one sided and how can it be made retrospective?

The Nat West Three, British business men and white collar workers have been extradited under this one sided treaty without any proof having to be provided, although Politicians were told that the treaty was to be used for Terrorists.

We used to have a statute of limitations in this country and I don't know when that changed.

Many Thanks for the support given to us by friends and compassionate strangers who have become friends. Your help is appreciated more than you could ever know.

Yours Sincerely

Janis (Gary's mum)

Note Pinochet and others accused of extremely serious crimes lost their legal battles - Pinochet in fact lost twice in the Lords before the Secretary of State intervened at the last minute (Jack Straw ˆ who also prevented the extradition of Roisin McAliskey to Germany for an allegation of IRA terrorism) to prevent removal from the UK and end the extradition process. McAliskey was on the grounds of mental health and Pinochet I believe primarily physical health. However they were viewed at the time as political decisions in sensitive areas.

Gary's crime of computer misuse is so miniscule in comparison to either of the two cases just mentioned.

[Mike_Jetson]

I cant believe people here and at other sites are debating Garys actions. Garys actions pale into insignificance in comparison to the way ours and the American governments have changed and manipulated laws in their favour. Not our favour. Theirs.

Standing up for Gary is standing up to the nonsense that has been ruling over us for hundreds if not thousands of years.

Anyone who decides to think the right thing to do is send him to America is totally beyond reckoning in my view. Can you not see the laws have not been working in our favour for so long. Madness

[zorgon]

Just a couple of points...

1) He confessed... he should have plead 'not guilty' then they would have had to bring proof... bad move on his part

2) WHY did Britain give in so easy on this case? THAT needs to be looked at... have they done this before? If not why this time?

3) Gary's computer skills... "He should be thanked and given a job..."
For what? because he randomly looked for open password computers?

I am willing to bet that at least half of you out there right now do not have a password on your computer... I bet even more do not have a password on your wireless internet or network... (6 of my neighbors don't... anyone can use their connection within a several block radius... ever wonder why your connection is SLOW? :lol3: Why pay for WIFI when your on the road when you can just 'hop on' )

I will also bet that many of you out there if you have a home security system are still using the installer default of 1234 or 12369 for ADT systems (Yup better go change it RIGHT NOW )

Why? because people are LAZY and creatures of habit... All Gary did was use this weakness and found someone who was stupid to leave their terminal online when they were not at the desk and had no password.

On top of that he did not d/l stuff... he viewed it online knowing full well that anyone walking by the terminal could see what he was doing.

This is not skill... this should not be rewarded. 75 years? Heck we don't even give murderers that much...

SO WE ARE MISSING SOMETHING HERE

4) I see a lot of talk about accessing secret government computers...

Look... the internet WE use was designed by DARPA and then given to the public because they had something BETTER... there is NO WAY to access the Secret stuff from the regular internet... ONLY if some idiot took some work 'home' with him and stored it on a PC at work would you find anything... and you can bet THAT person is in Gitmo :bleh: And that would be an internal matter... you would NEVER see it on the news...

The OTHER nets are...

NIPRNET... for below top secret but sensitive and confidential traffic
SIPRNET... for secret

If you are brave enough and want to look at the front door go here..

NIC dot MIL Its okay they won't bite, but they will know you knocked... I did not post a direct link as a lot of dot mil sites play havoc with threads... merely opening the thread on a link will cause a 'ping' . You will see what is required to get in... This is the ONLY portal to SIPRNET on the internet and requires a DoD password AND calling from a dot mil computer... Go look... but don't be stupid

The top secret stuff is handled by JWICS

Joint Worldwide Intelligence Communications System (JWICS)

The Joint Worldwide Intelligence Communications System (JWICS pronounced jaywicks) is a system of interconnected computer networks used by the U.S. Department of Defense and the U.S. Department of State to transmit classified information (up to and including information classified TOP SECRET and SCI) by packet switching over the TCP/IP protocols in a secure environment. It also provides services such as hypertext documents and electronic mail. In other words, the JWICS is the DoD’s classified version of the civilian Internet together with its counterpart, the SIPRNet.

The US Marines Portal is Here... front page is accessible
http://www.marcorsyscom.usmc.mil/sites/cins/INTEL/SIGNINIT/JWICS.html#sd

Bear in mind that most likely none of these links will work from OUTSIDE the USA :bleh:

There is one higher... usually only referred to as "the Global"... No I won't give out any more on that one... some dogs are best left sleeping :wink2:

5) I hear a lot of UFO talk... what Gary found was a list of non terrestrial officers and an 'alleged' photo of one of our 'other' spaceships nothing to do with UFO's but to do with a project that is so secret it's hard to even find clues...

Every one of us researchers would love to get our hands on such evidence... and we seek for it every day in documents at .mil sites... all publicly accessable to be sure... and not trying to sneak in any back doors ( errmmm ya...)

If 'they' ever wanted to 'get' one of us they could simply leave a sensitive document lying around for us to 'find'... track the IP and kick in your door because they KNOW you now have a restricted file on your computer...

So that means there is a LOT more to this than we currently know...

One other caveat.... all skeptics scream for proof of this secret space program... yet if it IS secret... merely possessing a document that proves it is a treasonable offense... something to think about

And you can scream all you want about the EVIL governments but until you are ready to grab arms and oppose them... it is a truth that they have all the cool toys like stealth planes and smart bombs that a kid with a joystick in Area 51 can fly right into your bedroom window...



Conclusion...

THERE IS MORE TO THIS THAN WE KNOW

[zorgon]

don't close the thread!.

WOW That's two threads in a row I hear the words "Closing thread" and one was deleted?

I left another popular board because they started doing that and deleting certain posts as well...

I hope I don't see a trend here...

[Colin]

Just a couple of points...

1) He confessed... he should have plead 'not guilty' then they would have had to bring proof... bad move on his part

2) WHY did Britain give in so easy on this case? THAT needs to be looked at... have they done this before? If not why this time?

3) Gary's computer skills... "He should be thanked and given a job..."
For what? because he randomly looked for open password computers?

I am willing to bet that at least half of you out there right now do not have a password on your computer... I bet even more do not have a password on your wireless internet or network... (6 of my neighbors don't... anyone can use their connection within a several block radius... ever wonder why your connection is SLOW? :lol3: Why pay for WIFI when your on the road when you can just 'hop on' )

I will also bet that many of you out there if you have a home security system are still using the installer default of 1234 or 12369 for ADT systems (Yup better go change it RIGHT NOW )

Why? because people are LAZY and creatures of habit... All Gary did was use this weakness and found someone who was stupid to leave their terminal online when they were not at the desk and had no password.

On top of that he did not d/l stuff... he viewed it online knowing full well that anyone walking by the terminal could see what he was doing.

This is not skill... this should not be rewarded. 75 years? Heck we don't even give murderers that much...

SO WE ARE MISSING SOMETHING HERE

4) I see a lot of talk about accessing secret government computers...

Look... the internet WE use was designed by DARPA and then given to the public because they had something BETTER... there is NO WAY to access the Secret stuff from the regular internet... ONLY if some idiot took some work 'home' with him and stored it on a PC at work would you find anything... and you can bet THAT person is in Gitmo :bleh: And that would be an internal matter... you would NEVER see it on the news...

The OTHER nets are...

NIPRNET... for below top secret but sensitive and confidential traffic
SIPRNET... for secret

If you are brave enough and want to look at the front door go here..

NIC dot MIL Its okay they won't bite, but they will know you knocked... I did not post a direct link as a lot of dot mil sites play havoc with threads... merely opening the thread on a link will cause a 'ping' . You will see what is required to get in... This is the ONLY portal to SIPRNET on the internet and requires a DoD password AND calling from a dot mil computer... Go look... but don't be stupid

The top secret stuff is handled by JWICS

Joint Worldwide Intelligence Communications System (JWICS)

The Joint Worldwide Intelligence Communications System (JWICS pronounced jaywicks) is a system of interconnected computer networks used by the U.S. Department of Defense and the U.S. Department of State to transmit classified information (up to and including information classified TOP SECRET and SCI) by packet switching over the TCP/IP protocols in a secure environment. It also provides services such as hypertext documents and electronic mail. In other words, the JWICS is the DoD’s classified version of the civilian Internet together with its counterpart, the SIPRNet.

The US Marines Portal is Here... front page is accessible
http://www.marcorsyscom.usmc.mil/sites/cins/INTEL/SIGNINIT/JWICS.html#sd

Bear in mind that most likely none of these links will work from OUTSIDE the USA :bleh:

There is one higher... usually only referred to as "the Global"... No I won't give out any more on that one... some dogs are best left sleeping :wink2:

5) I hear a lot of UFO talk... what Gary found was a list of non terrestrial officers and an 'alleged' photo of one of our 'other' spaceships nothing to do with UFO's but to do with a project that is so secret it's hard to even find clues...

Every one of us researchers would love to get our hands on such evidence... and we seek for it every day in documents at .mil sites... all publicly accessable to be sure... and not trying to sneak in any back doors ( errmmm ya...)

If 'they' ever wanted to 'get' one of us they could simply leave a sensitive document lying around for us to 'find'... track the IP and kick in your door because they KNOW you now have a restricted file on your computer...

So that means there is a LOT more to this than we currently know...

One other caveat.... all skeptics scream for proof of this secret space program... yet if it IS secret... merely possessing a document that proves it is a treasonable offense... something to think about

And you can scream all you want about the EVIL governments but until you are ready to grab arms and oppose them... it is a truth that they have all the cool toys like stealth planes and smart bombs that a kid with a joystick in Area 51 can fly right into your bedroom window...



Conclusion...

THERE IS MORE TO THIS THAN WE KNOW

Well informed & well written zorgon, AND the most compelling reason I've seen so far to keep this thread alive :naughty:

[Kerry Cassidy]

A good article...

Yes, good post zorgon.

And for the record, if we/they start closing threads I'm also outta here.

Kerry

***
McKinnon a 'scapegoat for Pentagon insecurity'
US military still wide open to attack, says reformed hacker
By John Leyden -- September 2008
www.theregister.co.uk/2008/09/03/mckinnon_bevan_interview_analysis/
-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
As accused Pentagon hacker Gary McKinnon hopes
against hope to avoid being extradited to the US,
another reformed military systems meddler
considers his own case - and how different
the outcome was.

McKinnon is probably days away from extradition.
Only a last minute plea to the Home Secretary
"Wacky" Jacqui Smith - based on McKinnon's recent
diagnosis with Asperger Syndrome - now stands
between the Scot and a US trial for hacking into
US government and military systems. Friends and
family staged a demonstration outside the
Home Office on Tuesday in a bid to draw attention
to McKinnon's plight.

The handling of McKinnon's case is in marked
contrast to how US authorities handled a
similar one ten years ago. Like McKinnon,
reformed computer hacker Mathew Bevan was
charged with breaking into US military
computer systems. Bevan was also curious
about searching for evidence that the
US military had harvested technology from
crashed UFOs. Bevan's alleged crimes were
cited as examples of cyberterrorism at
Senate hearings in 1996.

But no attempt was ever made to extradite
Bevan to the US. Instead he was prosecuted
in the UK. The case eventually fell apart
after 18 months, when prosecutors decided
not to proceed.

Bevan put the legal fight behind him and
has since gone on to become an ethical
hacker and security consultant.
Speaking exclusively to El Reg, Bevan
said McKinnon is being used in a political
game that has more to do with securing
funds than deterring or preventing attacks.

"Clearly, lessons have not been learned
since I breached similar systems and as
I have always suggested - perhaps
stopping the intrusions is not the goal
of the administration," Bevan said.
"Tacitly allowing access to machines
by ensuring that default passwords or
in fact access methods without passwords
is suggestive of a system that really
does not care too much about many of
the machines connected to it."

Bevan questions why Windows PCs on US military
networks are connected to the internet via
direct IPs. Thousands of attackers regularly
use the same remote access port accessed
during McKinnon's hack, but little or no
action has been taken in their cases,
Bevan adds.

McKinnon has said that many other hackers
had gained access to the same systems he
was accessing, questioning why US authorities
singled him out for prosecution. The fact
that McKinnon did nothing to disguise his
tracks and lived in a country with a friendly
extradition regime probably has a fair bit
to do with this.

Bevan supports McKinnon's contention that
he was far from alone in rooting around
US military systems. "You ask any military
hacker about the machines they broke in to
and they will tell you they were not the
only people on those systems. Of course,
they weren't the only people, as there
were great numbers of people whiling
away their time hacking computers."

Pork barrel ploy

McKinnon, according to Bevan,
was far more than simply unlucky.

"Why is it that only a tiny number of
those people ever face prosecution?
It is clearly not because the others
cannot be found. You cannot believe that
out of so many people, Gary just happened
to be caught."

McKinnon is being used as a scapegoat in
a bid to secure extra funding to protect
US military networks, according to Bevan,
who reckons a commercial organisation
would never get away with such trickery.

"I think it's all about timing and whether
or not the hacker will make a good scapegoat
whilst allowing the administration to request
further money. The fear machine can keep
churning out propaganda as per normal,
but don't expect those machines to actually
get better security. They are not businesses,
have no shareholders and therefore do not
have to answer to the same stringent rules
and tests that the computer systems of
corporations would."

Bevan compared hacking attacks to an
infestation by pests. Both stem from
a failure to follow basic housekeeping
rules, he argued.

"My cynical side believes that those
'pesky hackers' are treated just like
any bug infestation, the odd one or
two or even a handful is not much of
an issue until the place becomes overrun.
It is then that you can call in the
exterminators and make a big fuss about
the problem, of course it never addresses
that the usual problem with an infestation
is someone has not been keeping their
place tidy. You leave scraps around for
rats to find and in a short time you
will have many, many more rats sniffing
around for the goodies."

With such lax security, the US authorities
are lucky that McKinnon only had peaceful
intentions in mind, Bevan noted.

"Gary is a self-confessed stoner and
perpetrated the 'biggest military hack
of all time' whilst completely wasted.
This is clearly a sign of how lax the
security of these systems was. If Gary
had been clear minded and deliberate
about what he wanted to achieve and was
a malicious person rather than the
pacifist he is - where exactly would
we be now?"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
www.theregister.co.uk/2008/09/03/mckinnon_bevan_interview_analysis/

[Colin]

Ok guys, the poll is now closed, results below:

Close the thread, we agree to disagree, time to move on


40.63%



Leave the thread open, more discussion is needed


59.38%



SO, I'm very pleased to say, that by an overwhelming majority the thread stays OPEN! :naughty:

Thanks to everyone that took the time to vote :thumb_yello:

Now let's have lot's more well argued post's like zorgon's above!

[EDIT - Thread is now stickied so it stays in plain view]

[anonypony]

Dear Zorgon and all

You have raised many important questions and flagged up even more interesting information... Thanks for taking the time to educate us all...
I would like to relate to what you wrote and would be glad to hear your views. (All of you)

Here we go

1) He confessed... he should have plead 'not guilty' then they would have had to bring proof... bad move on his part
You are very right on this one. Here is what happened: When the police raided Gary's home in the middle of the night and arrested him, they have also arrested his girl friend at the time (T). Gary was very concerned about (T) being jailed, as she had nothing to do with what he was doing. He was told they would let her go if he confessed!!!!! He asked what would be the penalty if he confessed and was told - max 6 month community service. At the time he DID NOT THINK OF HIMSELF (which is typical Gary by the way). He did not think he needed a lawyer either. HE TRUSTED THEM...

That is why and how he came to fess up to his actions.
STUPID? YES! He would be the first to admit that now!

I am being told, that this kind of behaviour of rescuing others to one's own detriment and overly trusting... is typical to those with Asbergers Syndrome...

3) Gary's computer skills... "He should be thanked and given a job..."For what? because he randomly looked for open password computers?
That is very true too. Gary himself has always emphasised this fact! He always dismissed claims of being particularly skilled in the art of hacking and maintains any kid with basic computer skills could do what he did.

2) WHY did Britain give in so easy on this case? THAT needs to be looked at... have they done this before? If not why this time?
That is the million dollar question... And I, like many others who are watching this case unfold, wonder endlessly... I can only speculate and here is what I think:

In order to explore this question we would do well to put this case in the context of it's TIMING. Although Gary maintains he has been exploring those networks for over 2 years before being detected, he was arrested shortly after 911. Regardless of what views one takes on who were the perpetrators of this event, we can not dispute it's role as a fundamental linchpin in the transformation of our reality beyond recognition from that point on.

Far more interesting question here is WHY THE USA ADMINISTRATION WANTS HIM SO BADLY? What and who’s agenda this case would further and help cement into reality?

From there on we can ask, Is the British Government a fully consenting party to this agenda? Or was the British Government, or individuals members of it compromised, blackmailed, or coerced to implement changes to the UK law system, which will help facilitate that agenda later on?

It is my observation that the legislation process is often pre-empting the agenda it aims to serve by at least 10 years. Often a test case is brought forward, shortly after the new laws or bills are passed to make sure there are no unforeseen loop holes. If undesirable loop holes are found, amendments are introduced, way before those laws are really needed to be used for some agenda or another...

I believe Gary's case was viewed as such a test case to begin with.

There are many views regarding the ‘WHY THE USA ADMINISTRATION WANTS HIM SO BADLY’ question.
Many in the UFO community maintain it is to do with where he has been and what he has seen. That might be the case or maybe part of it. However Gary, initially was not talking at all about what he has seen. He only started talking about it in public interviews, when he could see no hope...

I think LIMITING THE FREEDOM ON AND OF THE INTERENT was one of the agendas this case was aimed to serve. In hindsight this has been achieved already, without Gary’s case even going to trial!!!!

It is also my observation that the minions of those who own this world often TELL US IN ADVANCE AND OPENLY WHAT THE PLAN IS! No wonder they think we are all stupid sheeple, ‘they tell us exactly what they are doing right to our face and we still don’t get it!’

I recall watching the news on the evening of that monumental day Sep 11, G Bush senior was televised giving a speech to some business conference. Out of all the things he could have said on this day and out of all the things he did say, this is what was televised (in the UK) He said - This event will change the way you use the internet for ever, it is too free and needs to be limited.

Needless to say the freedom we enjoyed using the internet pre 911 is but a faded memory now! And not just that freedom...

In the UK, pretty much anyone working in local council, can look into any aspect of an individual’s means of communication, without a court order! This includes emails, web browsing, telephone conversations - on line, mobile, or land lines, and snail mail too. Under the guise of terror legislation and despite huge public opposition, this is now a reality.

If you look at how this has been used so far? You will find it was also used against a normal family, registering their kids to a desirable local school.Their emails were accessed by their local council on suspicion that they have lied on a school application form and to check if they indeed lived within the catchment's area of this school.

I also think that limiting the freedom we used to have using the internet, is but a small part of a bigger agenda, which goes something like this:

THERE IS NO WHERE TO HIDE! OUR EVERY MOVE COULD BE RESTRICTED AND IS MONITORED AND, WE ARE WILLINGLY TO PAY FOR THE PREVELAGE!

This agenda has already been fulfilled, save the biometrics ID, which is still to come worldwide.

Talking of pre-emptive legislation, please look into the changes to bankruptcy laws introduced (in the USA) in the last few years and, how relevant it suddenly became due to the current financial climate!!!! Those changes may also explain the rapid expansion of the building of boot camps/concentration camps/ work camps, what ever you want to call them.

Back to our subject, saying all of this, I don’t dismiss for a moment the possibility, that what Gary has seen on his cyber visits to those networks, is something that the PTB are willing to defend at all cost, in order to keep it secret.

Bevan’s Case, which was highlighted in one of my earlier posts and more recently by Kerry’s post may explain partly, why Gary was never charged in the UK. Beyond the fact that those who arrested him and had access to his computer, were satisfied that he was not a terrorist and he did not inflict any damages. It is possible, that Bevan case demonstrated the LOOP HOLES and Gary’s case was to be used to close all those loop holes. This may also explain why this case has been such a ‘work in progress’ in terms of moving the legal goal post...

[BJ ∞ Trust Yourself]

N.L.P. thought:

I have to ask anyone why the title "poor Gary" was used? That's simply setting up for more poverty thinking.... I just wonder sometimes. Because there is no poor. Its simply choosing to hold ourselves back by using thoughts like that.

Ok, off the box of soap....

[Antaletriangle]

Atama and mike jetson are straight to the point with this issue-it stands outright to me that this is a media exercise by UK and US govts. in 'setting an example in what happens to those who don't play by the rules'.These govts. should scrutinise their own actions before casting the first stone.Gary's actions are very pale compared to that of the warmongers who wish him interned.I hope that the U.K. judicial system finds some measure of balance in this case and restore some sense of sanity and hope to the legal system.Not that there's much there initially!lol.

[BJ ∞ Trust Yourself]

The courts and governments are reflections of consciousness. We don't change consciousness through voting. ALTHOUGH voting is a reflection.... and expression, if you will, of your thoughts. We express it outwardly from the state of change INTERNALLY.

Namaste~

[Antaletriangle]

The courts and governments are reflections of consciousness. We don't change consciousness through voting. ALTHOUGH voting is a reflection.... and expression, if you will, of your thoughts. We express it outwardly from the state of change INTERNALLY.

Namaste~

It can also be a vicious circle-the govts. and courts feed their consciousness back into society,an en masse break away from this circle is what's required.

[anonypony]

N.L.P. thought:

I have to ask anyone why the title "poor Gary" was used? That's simply setting up for more poverty thinking.... I just wonder sometimes. Because there is no poor. Its simply choosing to hold ourselves back by using thoughts like that.

Ok, off the box of soap....


I so agree with you on this one 100% !!!!! I felt the same way when I found this
thread a while after it was open.

The title of any thread is determined by the person who opened it, when they did,
and I am not sure if you can alter it later on, other then to ask the moderators or
administrator to change it.

Whoever opened this thread chose this title...

[Orion Morris]

What a great thread, and good post as well zorgon. I was wondering who made the quote that went something like, "it is more important to do the right thing even if it is against the rules of the establishment then it is to go along with it knowing its wrong." That is not even close to the quote but I figured someone would know what I am talking about. I think it could be one of the trancendentalist authors or maybe Einstine.

[lawyerforliberty]

I am only mildly familar with Gary's legal predicament, but it is my understanding he has been accused of hacking into secured US government and/or quasi-governmental computers alledgedly in violation of federal law.

I suspect that he will eventually plea to the charges and spend sometime in a federal prison, before being send back to the UK, after they have made a sufficient example of him. The vast majority of all criminal and civil cases resolve by pleas and settlements--80 to 90% or so of all cases end this way.

In the relatively unlikely event that he does go to trial, I doubt very much that the court will permit any evidence of the contents of the computers and the substance of what Gary claims to have found to be admitted into evidence. Indeed, before trial the prosecution will most likely obtain an order from the judge excluding any such evidence on the ground that it is irrelevant. They will do this by way of a motion in limne. Such a motion is filed by litigants asking the court to exclude evidence that is irrelevant, immaterial, cumulative, or unduly prejudicial in the sense that it appeals to passion, prejudice and bias, rather than sense and reason.

I have not looked at the laws under which he is charged, but I will bet you that the "crimes" he is charged with committing are committed by the act of hacking, and in no way is guilt or innocence a function of what you find when you hack. (Think about that for a minute.) Thus, what is found will be ruled irrelevant to establish the elements of the crime or any defenses thereto, and the federal judge (his case will be or already is in federal court) will rule that any such evidence is inadmissible.

For that reason no one, including Dan Burich, will be permitted to testify as to what Gary found in the computers nor give any factual testimony or expert opinion as to the truth or falsity of the contents of the computers.

The powers-that-be will, therefore, have no need to keep the media out of the trial, or assert national security, state secrects or some other legal fiction to keep the truth concerning the contents of the computers out of evidence, because the court will not permit the contents or substance of what Gary discovered in the computers into evidence, having determined that it is irrelevant to prove the elements of the crime or to prove Gary's innocence.

I'm sorry folks but, in my humble opinion, Gary's case will not provide the opportunity to prove that the government engages in black ops or is aware of extraterrestrial life forms who are in contact with we mere and mortal Earthlings, any more than the few cases filed by family members of the victims of 9/11 proved that 9/11 was an inside job. Albeit, the reasons the latter cases failed to get to the truth of 9/11 (immunity, failure to state a calim etc...) are different than why Gary's case will fail to get to the truth about alien life forms and visitations or government black ops.

Regards,

Stevan Looney

[colesmommy1117]

....hate to be off-the-wall here, but i just have to say it...

amazing that this guy is getting all this heat. even more astounding is the possible sentence this man faces for hacking into a computer....

meanwhile....child abusers (of all types) are slapped on the wrist daily and walking away with meager sentences....


gotta love america....

[murnut]

I am only mildly familar with Gary's legal predicament, but it is my understanding he has been accused of hacking into secured US government and/or quasi-governmental computers alledgedly in violation of federal law.

I suspect that he will eventually plea to the charges and spend sometime in a federal prison, before being send back to the UK, after they have made a sufficient example of him. The vast majority of all criminal and civil cases resolve by pleas and settlements--80 to 90% or so of all cases end this way.

In the relatively unlikely event that he does go to trial, I doubt very much that the court will permit any evidence of the contents of the computers and the substance of what Gary claims to have found to be admitted into evidence. Indeed, before trial the prosecution will most likely obtain an order from the judge excluding any such evidence on the ground that it is irrelevant. They will do this by way of a motion in limne. Such a motion is filed by litigants asking the court to exclude evidence that is irrelevant, immaterial, cumulative, or unduly prejudicial in the sense that it appeals to passion, prejudice and bias, rather than sense and reason.

I have not looked at the laws under which he is charged, but I will bet you that the "crimes" he is charged with committing are committed by the act of hacking, and in no way is guilt or innocence a function of what you find when you hack. (Think about that for a minute.) Thus, what is found will be ruled irrelevant to establish the elements of the crime or any defenses thereto, and the federal judge (his case will be or already is in federal court) will rule that any such evidence is inadmissible.

For that reason no one, including Dan Burich, will be permitted to testify as to what Gary found in the computers nor give any factual testimony or expert opinion as to the truth or falsity of the contents of the computers.

The powers-that-be will, therefore, have no need to keep the media out of the trial, or assert national security, state secrects or some other legal fiction to keep the truth concerning the contents of the computers out of evidence, because the court will not permit the contents or substance of what Gary discovered in the computers into evidence, having determined that it is irrelevant to prove the elements of the crime or to prove Gary's innocence.

I'm sorry folks but, in my humble opinion, Gary's case will not provide the opportunity to prove that the government engages in black ops or is aware of extraterrestrial life forms who are in contact with we mere and mortal Earthlings, any more than the few cases filed by family members of the victims of 9/11 proved that 9/11 was an inside job. Albeit, the reasons the latter cases failed to get to the truth of 9/11 (immunity, failure to state a calim etc...) are different than why Gary's case will fail to get to the truth about alien life forms and visitations or government black ops.

Regards,

Stevan Looney

Nice post...Thank you

[Myra]

Dear Gary - do a runner.:winksmiley02:

If he can he should. I would NOT want to be in their meat grinder.

[murnut]

If he can he should. I would NOT want to be in their meat grinder.

What does running accomplish?

[murnut]

Just curious.

Did this guy do anything wrong in the eyes of Hacking supporters?

Proxy server trail leads FBI to Palin email hacker

By Humphrey Cheung
Friday, September 19, 2008 21:44

Anchorage (Alaska) – FBI agents are using proxy server logs to track down the hacker who broke into Sarah Palin’s Yahoo email account. The hacker gained access to the Republican Vice Presidential candidate’s account by resetting the password. He then posted details of his adventures up on a popular online forum, but that information is now leading reporters and federal investigators to the suspect – a Tennessee university college student and son of state democratic representative Mike Kernell.

A few days ago, someone going by the name of “Rubico” gloated on 4chan.org that he managed to hack into Sarah Palin’s Yahoo account. He forced a password reset by answering questions about Palin’s birthdate, zip code and where she met her spouse, Wasilla High School. Of course, by being the Republican candidate for Vice President, this information is all very easily found on the Internet. After answering the questions, Rubico reset the password to “popcorn” and read through Palin’s emails.

And it seems he was pretty thorough, saying he read, “ALL OF THEM” on the boards. He even posted up screenshots of the Yahoo email page, complete with the full URL (we’ll talk about that later). Rubico says he didn’t find anything incriminating and the emails were actually fairly mundane family pictures and correspondence. But his jubilation turned into horror as he realized that he didn’t take proper precautions in covering his tracks.

Rubico used a proxy server that shields the source IP address from website logging scripts. While this sounds great, Rubico posted, “Yes I was behind a proxy, only one, if this sh** ever got to the FBI I was FU****”

In his gloating, Rubico posted up screenshots of the Yahoo account complete with the full URL which included the proxy server url (ctunnel.com) appended with a unique identifier. For example, we used ctunnel.com to surf to YouTube and the URL reads - http://ctunnel.com/index.php/1010110A/58a5cd1e8ab47088982c83282fd768456ebe14f44221026. So it doesn’t take a genius to go through the logs and match up the ID to the appropriate IP address and BAM, you got the hacker.

But aren’t proxy servers supposed to anonymize your information? Yes and no. Dan Goodin over at The Register talked to Gabriel Ramuglia, the owner of the ctunnel.com proxy server that Rubico allegedly used. Ramuglia is upset about the ordeal because his service was never meant to be used for illegal activies and says Rubico definitely broke his site’s terms of service. Ramuglia added that every incoming IP address is logged with the time and destination website.

Ramuglia told Goodin that he hasn’t a chance yet to examine his logs, but added that there is a good chance that it will lead to the hacker. Since the interview, he’s received a call from the Anchorage Alaska FBI field office and agents there are highly suggesting that he not lose the logs.

But it gets even better. White hat hackers didn’t even need proxy information to find the culprit because they discovered that the Rubico forum handle was linked to rubico10@yahoo.com.This e-mail address is being protected from spam bots, you need JavaScript enabled to view it A few searches on Google and YouTube further links this email address to 20-year-old David Kernell, a student at the University of Tennessee-Knoxville. His father is Democratic Tennessee state representative Mike Kernell.

As you can expect, the Yahoo account has been frozen and all the incriminating forum posts on 4chan.org have been deleted. But this didn’t stop Wired.com from printing some of the posts. Don’t you just love it when hackers brag about the “leet” skills?

http://www.tgdaily.com/index2.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=39405&pop=1&page=0&Itemid=108

================================================== =

So...this guy was looking for dirt on Palin.

Since she is an evil Republican, this is okay....right?

What if it was Barrack who was hacked?

What if it was you?

What if it was Project Camelot?

Many will say that Project camelot was hacked many times.

This could be true.

So do we really want to validate this, by saying that since the PtB did it first, we are okay it retaliating?

Do we fight evil with evil?

[King Lear]

http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/4564/glfjc0.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Stand up and be counted...

[murnut]

Is violence really the way?

What's with the guns?

[King Lear]

They're filled with "Love"!

[seeing clearly]

Just my view:

but in many people there is a pronounced
suffering savior archetype.
These will stand out in front of tanks and raise a hand to
tyranny. Their contract before reincarnation here may well
be to be a suffering savior.

He cannot do it alone.

He needs people to keep him before the public eye or
his sacrifice will go in vain

If a mass support is kept going he will become martyr material
and TPTB will not disappear him . Tyranny does not want martyrs!
They can ignite rev ol ushun!

To really help him AND OURSELVES, keep his name and work circulating
across web. If not , and he becomes innocuous, it is easy to lose him
in the massive system of misnamed justice.

Send him kind words, keep his name on every forum, send emails ,
( eyes read them ) and generally let tyranny KNOW we will
follow him to his freedom.

This way he stands a chance of getting out before he rots!

This is how Ernst Zundel was saved from twenty years or more.

He was kept in fornt of the public moment by moment, day by day
from the day he was illegally arrested and kept incognito for
two weeks in a Tenessee sheriffs jail W/O any charges !

An international cadre of supporters screamed across the web
and even the insane courts of siun Germany would decide to stick
to the law and give him what that law stated, five years but no
time off for two years he sat in soiltary in Canada UNCHARGED
for ANY crime.
( he was eventually charged with a thought crime, denial of a hoax is
a thought crime in Germany and many other nations and Liberman and
his cohorts are trying to pass same law here in America ! )

This even tho so many kept his name in the faces of TPTB
He became an International HERO and martyr!

This is NOT what tyranny wanted to happen.

if we stand tall for Gary he will survive and be an ICON
for all of us who want to get free of tyranny.

He is a rev ol ush nerie of the first order !

re vol ushuns are ignited by FIREBRANDS who most often die
in that process and become LEGENDS

It is these very seemingly small events that re ignite the fighting
Spirit in we older persons and LIGHT IT IN THE YOUNGER ONES!

Creating rev ol ushun takes days, weeks, years ,to gather up enough
Spirit to stand up to the OGRE with a thousand weapons.


when that Spirit reaches its CRUX one sufferig savior will stand up
and be the catalyst that fires that shot to be heard and welcomed
round the world and across the web.

It MAY be GARY, it MAY be one who comes after, but as the
cycle ripens one will be.


TRUST NATURE, one will BE.


cycles overlapping cycles. and so it is...

[seeing clearly]

DO NOT EVEN THINK OF CLOSING THIS THREAD

More people will come in and read of Garys problems
and how to help him.

If any cannot see his problem is ALL OF OUR problem
u r not seeing the core and tendril ends as all of the
same octopus, tyranny

worlds crises need exposure by such as GARY.

we cannot seperate every crisis and focus our attentions on
only the ones we feel threatend by

they are all cut from ONE cloth and must be seen as usable to
show people just who/were TYRANNY is

his actions are inspiring many young people who get bored with
some of the older ones ( me included) who post OTT
intellectual and DOOM/ crisis stuff.


......................

free Gary
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iz_GtLJyUTo

we are already using anti-ravity ( OOPS !)

..............

HOMIES on the job:

Project Camelot interviews Gary McKinnon
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_fNsah-0vpY&feature=related


.....


Keep GARY in front of the public !


`

[seeing clearly]

Is violence really the way?

What's with the guns?


YES

the only way to precipate change is violence

but it must be prepared, laid out, planned,
right down to the most infinite details

and then the violence will only be quick and fierce
and a BLOODLESS coup is accomplished.

If one faction doesnt do it another will when
the ruling body is toppling and rotten.

several entities are right now plotting OT
of American nation.

study history ! :mad3:


`


,

[murnut]

Then you trade the current PtB for new PtB that are no better.

So the point would be what exactly?

[anonypony]

Just curious.

Did this guy do anything wrong in the eyes of Hacking supporters?
Proxy server trail leads FBI to Palin email hacker....

So...this guy was looking for dirt on Palin.
Since she is an evil Republican, this is okay....right?
What if it was Barrack who was hacked?
What if it was you?
What if it was Project Camelot?
Many will say that Project camelot was hacked many times.
This could be true.
So do we really want to validate this, by saying that since the PtB did it first, we are okay it retaliating?
Do we fight evil with evil?


Interesting case...

Do you think David Kernell, the son of Democratic Tennessee representative Mike Kernell,
will get 70 years in gail for what you suggest is 'looking for dirt on an evil Republican'?

Do you see Gary's escapade as 'looking for dirt on an evil PTB'?

Is looking into the private life of a public servant, the same, as looking for
suppressed truth - the actions of those who rule without a mandate?

Does it matter if the door was open?
Does it matter if you just look around?
Does it matter if you steal the information (property) that you find?
Does it matter if you alter the information (property) in it's original location?
Does it matter if you damage the information (property)? or to what extent?
Does it matter who’s door it was? or what the information was?
Does it matter who you are? and who your father is?

What would be a proportionate punishment?

[murnut]

I' ll answer your questions....just as soon as you answer mine:wink2:

Fair enough?

[anonypony]

I' ll answer your questions....just as soon as you answer mine:wink2:
Fair enough?

I did not direct the questions at you and to be fair I don't recall you ever answering any of mine in the past.

But since you asked I will state this:

I think it is stupid to do anything, which involves breaking the law!
There are always creative ways to get to the truth without breaking the law!

However in the event that someone has been guided or misguided to do so,
and they have admitted to it (or partially have)
and have publicly admitted that what they have done was wrong,
I would like to see them judged PROPORTIONATELY AND FAIRLY!

I wish someone will judicially review the UK government in the high court for their decision to engage in a non reciprocal extradition treaty and especially their agreement to wave off any need for EVIDENCE before shipping their citizens off to a country that practice torture, trauma based mind control, radiation experiments... Shell I go on?

[murnut]

Oh....I thought since you quoted me, you were responding.

I always try to answer questions posed to me.

I don't know enough about extradition law, in the UK.

It would seem that since he has had 3 hearings on the matter, and lost them, I see no violations of his rights.

I will quote your other post and respond

[murnut]

Interesting case...

Do you think David Kernell, the son of Democratic Tennessee representative Mike Kernell,
will get 70 years in gail for what you suggest is 'looking for dirt on an evil Republican'?

Do you see Gary's escapade as 'looking for dirt on an evil PTB'?

Is looking into the private life of a public servant, the same, as looking for
suppressed truth - the actions of those who rule without a mandate?

Does it matter if the door was open?
Does it matter if you just look around?
Does it matter if you steal the information (property) that you find?
Does it matter if you alter the information (property) in it's original location?
Does it matter if you damage the information (property)? or to what extent?
Does it matter who’s door it was? or what the information was?
Does it matter who you are? and who your father is?

What would be a proportionate punishment?


Do you think David Kernell, the son of Democratic Tennessee representative Mike Kernell,
will get 70 years in gail for what you suggest is 'looking for dirt on an evil Republican'?

No, and neither will Gary


Do you see Gary's escapade as 'looking for dirt on an evil PTB'?

No, I believe he was doing what he said he was doing

Is looking into the private life of a public servant, the same, as looking for
suppressed truth - the actions of those who rule without a mandate?


Breaking into someones private email account is wrong.

Does it matter if the door was open?

No

Does it matter if you just look around?

No

Does it matter if you steal the information (property) that you find?

No, but penalty should be more severe

Does it matter if you alter the information (property) in it's original location?

No but penalty should increase


Does it matter if you damage the information (property)? or to what extent?

Increased penalty

Does it matter who’s door it was? or what the information was?
Does it matter who you are? and who your father is?


No

What would be a proportionate punishment?

That is not for me to decide

[murnut]

before shipping their citizens off to a country that practice torture, trauma based mind control, radiation experiments... Shell I go on?

What's your point?

You really think that the Brits are innocent of these as well?

Do you really believe that this fate awaits Gary?

[seeing clearly]

Then you trade the current PtB for new PtB that are no better.

So the point would be what exactly?

***********




*************************

to get in the act and try to create a better social construct

and you suggest what...
to sit back and do nothing?

or go to a neutral location and criticize
all who get involved??

IF we do not take a stand for something

we will be forced to live in the stand of
views we find abhorrent !

not to get into SOME activity to make life
better is to invite stagnation/death.

CREATE change
PLAN it to be better
and it will get better

not all at once, but noticeably so.

keep practicing until it gets waaaay better

and then,

keep practicing.


NO LIMITS.

:wub2:

.

[murnut]

seeing clearly,

I agree with your post.

I am just suggesting that breaking the law, specifically hacking, is not the way to accomplish what we seek.

Once we decide, what laws are right and wrong as it relates our own particualr views, it is a slippery slope that can only escalate.

We have so little credibility already.


Oh.....and violence is not the way.

[motov]

is it just me or????
Gary have try`d to unveil a crime by the black ops parties with another crime by hacking, i got a problem with that, if these forces are to be disposed it should be done via whistle blowers and so forth, and not by sinking down to their level and do crime to expose crime.
i think Gary is a person that are taking to much heat for this then he should, but a crime is a crime anyways....

criminal behavior is for lo life`s and not for serious investigators...

[seeing clearly]

seeing clearly,

I agree with your post.

I am just suggesting that breaking the law, specifically hacking, is not the way to accomplish what we seek.

Once we decide, what laws are right and wrong as it relates our own particualr views, it is a slippery slope that can only escalate.

We have so little credibility already.


Oh.....and violence is not the way.

***************************



If a tyranny has set up laws that make a playing field with trap doors we can stay on that playing field in anxious attempts to avoid the inevitable trap door to our own demise or use " ANY MEANS NECSSARY "
to create change.

If animals are locked in cages you want to FREE them even if you get caught and go to jail.

since all humans are in one huge invisible cage we must use what ever actions we can to get free, and we do have more than ONE life to give up to get all humanity FREE ! :sneaky2:


or we bow to the current rulership

As a female I cannot do that anymore.......!

Unjust laws not made with the consent of the people are to be walked
over to get to the chamber where we again make laws for US and not an elite!


Uranus planet of revo lush un is powerful in my chart , cantcha feel it !?:lmao:


I am not trying to make anyone a rev ol ushun erie here as I wish to keep respectful all round but ...


OOOPS..

BS ! YES I AM!

come stand in the line of resistance!

just look at apppeasment and where it gets you.

I can tell you stories about the justice system and keeping with
in the laws all day , and you will never sleep good again.:mad3:

will you stand on laws made to tighten the yoke around your neck??

or start acting now and to perdition with laws made to keep us
bound to a Master not of our own choosing.

we call for a REAL leader,

one WE choose !

not efffete elites who live on the beaches of Baku and eat
the rarest Beluga and keep hareems of women and children
stolen from Western cities for slavery to perverted desires.

and I know many here know what I am speaking of !

If people could really stand together it would never need to become
violent...

but as people will NOT stand together it takes a handful of very dedicated Folks to make as bloodless rev ol ushun as possible as
is done often in history and is bloodlesscoup.

We are fast approaching that level of BOIL and frogs are trying to jump out
of it.
Now there is no cool place to jump to so the young Folks will simply go wilding and be needlessly killed in the streets.

Wiser heads must make the great flip called political coup
or we will have many years of CIVIL WAR in American again.


Cycles do go as cycles do go.

s

[murnut]

Well then...we do disagree.

What you suggest just puts us in a new cage.

[anonypony]

Do you think David Kernell, the son of Democratic Tennessee representative Mike Kernell, will get 70 years in jail for what you suggest is 'looking for dirt on an evil Republican'?

No, and neither will GaryI wonder how you can say this with such confidence? Do you have inside information?
It is not what the persecutors PROMISSED Gary - that is for sure!
Otherwise why would they make such a concerted effort to eliminate the evidence?
Saying 'neither will Gary', is also saying a UK QC (queens Counsel) was LYING to the house of Lords in his evidence of what was PROMISSED to Gary?

No, I believe he was doing what he said he was doingDoes that include Gary's many statements that he never did any damage?

[murnut]

Because no hacker has even gotten anything beyond 10 years....99% are under 5 years.

How would Gary know if he caused damage or not?

What about the damage you are said to have caused?
McKinnon: What they call damage is really just them realizing that they have been accessed without authorization. Then they say things like I deleted 300 users, deleted systems files and such. That was one instance when I did a batch file to clean up all my stuff--I think once and only once, though perhaps I ran it on the root drive of the "c:" drive. But it certainly wasn't every machine I was on and, if you believe them, they talk about 94 networks being damaged.

http://news.cnet.com/Gary-McKinnon-Scapegoat-or-public-enemy/2008-7350_3-5786782.html
***************************************

McKinnon unearthed unprotected computer systems operated by the US army, the navy, the Pentagon and Nasa. On every system he hacked, he left messages. 'It was frightening because they had little or no security,' he said. 'I was always leaving messages on the desktop saying, "your security is really crap".'

One message has come back to haunt him. 'I said US foreign policy was akin to government-sponsored terrorism and I believed 9/11 was an inside job. It was a political diatribe,' he admitted.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/jul/27/internationalcrime.hacking
************************************************** *

Next

[seeing clearly]

Well then...we do disagree.

What you suggest just puts us in a new cage.

*******************************




finally found a quote that was sticking in back of my mind

I was looking for Jefferson as he said something similar
but this will do:


On the Duty to Rebel

"If, by the instrument of governmental power,
a people is being led toward its destruction,
then rebellion is not only the right of every
member of such a people—it is his duty."

**********************************************


and it is time now for all who still resist that yoke to do whatever
is POSSIBLE to do our duty. If we can only educate ourselves and
others,

so be it...........

if we are able to do more active participation it is right to
do so and hacking is a revolutionary act. :sneaky2:

,

[anonypony]

Back to Zorgon's earlier post...
I gave the following somethought

Look... the internet WE use was designed by DARPA and then given to the public because they had something BETTER... there is NO WAY to access the Secret stuff from the regular internet... ONLY if some idiot took some work 'home' with him and stored it on a PC at work would you find anything... and you can bet THAT person is in Gitmo And that would be an internal matter... you would NEVER see it on the news...

The OTHER nets are...

NIPRNET... for below top secret but sensitive and confidential traffic
SIPRNET... for secret
We are being told by the prosecution where they claim he has been, which includes Nasa, the Army and the Navy among others. I assume some within those, are using the internet or using the internet as well as the other secure networks. Maybe both from the same machines. Which would explain how Gary might have hopped from one network to another and eventually stumbled on what he claims to have seen.

Here is someone else deliberating this and other issues

http://ufo-evidence.com/

Gary McKinnon Loses European Appeal

No big surprise that Gary McKinnon has lost his appeal to the European Court of Human Rights in Strasbourg, which has refused to hear the appeal.

Articles covering this have McKinnon listed as a, “Computer Expert” which is a term he vehemently rejects, describing himself more as a stoner come truth-seeker.

Surely this description is more damaging to the public perception of the US military and NASA whom have apparently allowed a stoner with a Perl script access to their most frequently denied secret, i.e. prior knowledge to/and first hand experience of the UFO/ETH phenomenon.

Perhaps the UFO was an ‘elaboration’ by McKinnon?

Personally I struggle to see the rationale involved if that was the case as surely the last thing Gary needs is people (often on) the fringe of the UFO community lobbying for his freedom. All of which makes it quite a strange case in itself, add to that the refusal of the US to allow Gary to be tried in the UK (which let’s face it for all intents & purposes was where the crime was committed) and I can’t help but wonder why the US haven’t swept this under the carpet rather than allow it to drag out and turn into the media circus that it is inevitably becoming.

Surely regardless of what punishment the US judge deems fit to bestow it can only be unwanted publicity further highlighting the weakness of the computer systems and the amateurish personnel charged with defending some of the countries most delicate secrets (UFO/ETH related or not).

I believe there is a little more going on than is immediately apparent but I’m hesitant to state my opinion at this juncture other than to reiterate my puzzlement at how the US is allowing itself to be publicly perceived as little more than petty bureaucrats intent on proving a point. And in doing so is instilling/reinforcing distrust in an already apprehensive public regarding their general modus operandi as it relates to handling secret information, and it’s an MO that ultimately exposes their massive negligence and incompetence as it directly relates to locking even the simplest ‘backdoor’ into their highly sensitive network.

[shaundelear]

Been watching this develop and good arguments that have ensued.

To the "he's had his chance in courts and deserves what he gets"
I am dissapointed.
Surely moraly he does not deserve the years of torment for breaking ******** laws that aply to virtual crime- it is not real.
He could have mugged a pensioner on pension day and got less grief.
If the system is as corrupt as it seems why should a citizen be squeaky clean and obey?surely exposing the corruption is a higher purpose.

Its a different set of rules for the rulers -they just do what they want.

Wonder if the extradition receipts come back at $700 billion?

The UK gov handed over Gary when they know the States is being run by crooks/war mongers/terrorists and blasphemers.What does that say?
"God bless America?" -God help us from America/n law/lawyers.

To all the posts on Garys side "tob job"
Poor Garys' mum ,keep going.
The idea for the thread was to get a little bit of empathy for Gary.
I liked the way he came across in the interviews.
To put him in jail is a crime in it's self ,is he a danger ?
is it worth the expense?
NO send him home to his family .

[seeing clearly]

Been watching this develop and good arguments that have ensued.

To the "he's had his chance in courts and deserves what he gets"
I am dissapointed.
Surely moraly he does not deserve the years of torment for breaking ******** laws that aply to virtual crime- it is not real.
He could have mugged a pensioner on pension day and got less grief.
If the system is as corrupt as it seems why should a citizen be squeaky clean and obey?surely exposing the corruption is a higher purpose.

Its a different set of rules for the rulers -they just do what they want.

Wonder if the extradition receipts come back at $700 billion?

The UK gov handed over Gary when they know the States is being run by crooks/war mongers/terrorists and blasphemers.What does that say?
"God bless America?" -God help us from America/n law/lawyers.

To all the posts on Garys side "tob job"
Poor Garys' mum ,keep going.
The idea for the thread was to get a little bit of empathy for Gary.
I liked the way he came across in the interviews.
To put him in jail is a crime in it's self ,is he a danger ?
is it worth the expense?
NO send him home to his family .


*********************************************

a very clear view and well stated !


:thumb_yello:

.

[murnut]

Been watching this develop and good arguments that have ensued.

To the "he's had his chance in courts and deserves what he gets"
I am dissapointed.
Surely moraly he does not deserve the years of torment for breaking ******** laws that aply to virtual crime- it is not real.
He could have mugged a pensioner on pension day and got less grief.
If the system is as corrupt as it seems why should a citizen be squeaky clean and obey?surely exposing the corruption is a higher purpose.

Its a different set of rules for the rulers -they just do what they want.

Wonder if the extradition receipts come back at $700 billion?

The UK gov handed over Gary when they know the States is being run by crooks/war mongers/terrorists and blasphemers.What does that say?
"God bless America?" -God help us from America/n law/lawyers.

To all the posts on Garys side "tob job"
Poor Garys' mum ,keep going.
The idea for the thread was to get a little bit of empathy for Gary.
I liked the way he came across in the interviews.
To put him in jail is a crime in it's self ,is he a danger ?
is it worth the expense?
NO send him home to his family .


Hey yeah...great post....maybe we should all stop paying our mortgages, since it only supports the evil PtB.

Hacking is not a crime, just as long as it is for ufo's.....or whatever we can make up.

Good luck UFO vigilantes!

No wonder we are considered the fringe, and are never taken seriously.

I am sorry for Gary and his family....6mos in jail would have been horrible.

Gary has one person to blame, himself.

[anonypony]

Thank you King Lear for being the humour king and keeping us smiling...
P.S. who is 'the third man' from the left?

http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/4564/glfjc0.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Stand up and be counted...

[anonypony]

"he's had his chance in courts and deserves what he gets"

That is just it. HE DIDN'T! Throughout all the legal comings and goings till this moment, all that was discussed in the courts is the law itself.

Gary was accused, his crimes alleged, but NO EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER WAS SUBMITTED and he had not once the chance to refute it!

The questions the court system was deliberating was: should Gary be extradited under the new extradition treaty, which by the way, was only ratified by both sides in 2007. So while most of these legal steps dealing with this point were going on, the treaty was only sighed by the UK.

Like a lamb to the slaughter....

[anonypony]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/sep/22/hacking.usa

A vindictive sort of justice

The US authorities are so desperate to extradite my son that they have changed the law. Now he faces 60 years in jail
Janis Sharp (http://www.guardian.co.uk/profile/janissharp)

Monday September 22 2008 11:30 BST
Article history

Any day now, my son, Gary McKinnon (http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2008/aug/29/hacking.law), could face extradition from Britain to the United States, where he would stand trial for hacking into US government computers and could face a sentence of up to 60 years.
Gary has recently been diagnosed with Asperger's syndrome (http://www.nas.org.uk/asperger), which is why I and his family and his many friends and supporters around the world are arguing that he should be allowed to stay in the UK and face the courts in the country where the offence – if offence there was – was committed.
The US authorities waited two years to call for Gary's arrest because of a then-unratified, unsigned extradition treaty between the two countries, which would make it easier for them to have a British citizen sent for trial in the US. Yet, when he was first arrested in London, six years ago now, Gary was told he would probably get a sentence of community service (http://www.vnunet.com/vnunet/news/2225136/mckinnon-supporters-cause-home) for his hacking activities.
He naively admitted computer misuse before he had engaged a lawyer and without a lawyer even being present. We were still unaware at that time that he had Asperger's syndrome.
Gary gained no leniency for his honesty and on the contrary, his extradition has been relentlessly pursued by the British and American authorities, despite the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) declining to prosecute him in Britain. This attitude will hardly encourage British citizens to come clean regarding any crimes they may have committed. If no leniency or consideration is given when a person accused of a crime immediately and openly tells the truth, there is little point in them admitting to anything.
The CPS's decision not to to prosecute Gary here was clearly made to allow the Americans to arrest him two-and-a-half years later, once the one-sided extradition treaty was introduced and then made retrospective.
In addition, in order to indict Gary, the US authorities had to claim a specific amount of financial damage. Gary has always denied causing damage and without proof of such, the US could not prosecute him. Just a month ago the US prosecutors stated in an interview that once Gary was extradited, the most difficult thing to prove would be the damage!
Several weeks ago the goalposts were moved yet again when the US introduced a new law whereby no proof of damage was required where military computers were concerned. For the American law to then have been conveniently changed at such a crucial time does little to give us any faith in such a legal system.

There is a London demonstration outside the US embassy (http://www.usembassy.org.uk/ukembmap.html), scheduled for 4pm on September 28 in Grosvenor Square. See the campaign website (http://www.freegary.org.uk/) for more details.

[anonypony]

New YouTube video - An interview with Rasagy

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=JykjcYWdB9o (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=hNvbh3LM0UQ)

An interview with Rasagy

In late September a group of concerned people came together outside the American Embassy in London, to highlight the plight of Gary McKinnon, recently confirmed as having Aspergers Syndrome, a form of Autism.
McKinnon faces extradition to the USA for alleged damage to various computer systems operated by the US military.
The demonstration was organised by the London Autistic Rights Movement, to highlight that Aspergers Syndrome is considered a disability, and as such no extradition should even be considered.

[broken arrow]

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[broken arrow]

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[broken arrow]

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[Ampgod]

I wanted to give my personal opinion on this case.

I feel the facts are going to come out regarding the secret space program Anyway. I feel our government does not want them released in this manner at this time. I think all the facts will come out when the timing is correct. Right now we need to get ready for the orchestrated global financial collapse. I believe this is a carefully constructed positive plan that is happening now in steps. Also, What happens with the presidency will be very interesting as well.

I think Gary McKinnon won't do much time.
I would be very surprised if he does. If they really wanted to make a example out of him it would be much bigger headline news.

So what are your thoughts on this?
I'd love to hear some more personal opinions on this. :)


Peace,
Ampgod

[bill7907]

People won't make a big story of him is because he does not want to.

If, as Kerry said, he stood up and said: NASA and the American Government has been lying to its people and taking all the Tax of the people to finance the Secret Space Program and hide the Existence of Extraterreestrials, watch how the story will turn out.

In my opinion, Kerry and Bill should concentrate deeply on that alternative because it might set Gary free if the lies are uncovered publicly.

[freekatz]

I would think that the last thing the government wants at this point is a lot of publicity, that would get the public curious. Far better to spirit Gary away without too much fanfare, find out what he knows. try him and just let the media report want they want us to hear and then as Kerry suggested in another thread they can tighten up the laws on this kind of thing. I just hope for Gary's sake that it doesn't happen.

[TickTockTickTock]

I wanted to give my personal opinion on this case.

I feel the facts are going to come out regarding the secret space program Anyway. I feel our government does not want them released in this manner at this time. I think all the facts will come out when the timing is correct. Right now we need to get ready for the orchestrated global financial collapse. I believe this is a carefully constructed positive plan that is happening now in steps. Also, What happens with the presidency will be very interesting as well.

I think Gary McKinnon won't do much time.
I would be very surprised if he does. If they really wanted to make a example out of him it would be much bigger headline news.

So what are your thoughts on this?
I'd love to hear some more personal opinions on this. :)


Peace,
Ampgod

Although nothing is fixed, I don;t think that he will be allowed to say much about the things he discovered - the judge will probably rule it to be irrelevant, and I think that he will be given a long sentence. I hope it doesn't go that way, but that's what I expect. A good psychiatric input could help a lot.

[Ampgod]

I feel there are to cases here.

1. illegal hacking
2. What he found

So there should be 2 cases.

Regarding ET's...
I think there is already a planned time for this release so it will be released to the public in a constructive manner.

What do you think?

[martian31v]

i would base my defense on freedom of information. we have an existential right to know our reality. the u.s gov. while keeping e.t related information from the world, the u.s gov/military is committing crimes against humanity. therefore, gary was justified in seeking/searching for that information. it is a similar argument to the one used by Dr. Greer in his whistleblower justification (the u.s was acting outside the constitution when forcing individuals to sign confidentiality clauses, therefore breaking confidentiality is not a crime.) kerry is right, gary needs to play hardball not softball.

[bill7907]

i would base my defense on freedom of information. we have an existential right to know our reality. the u.s gov. while keeping e.t related information from the world, the u.s gov/military is committing crimes against humanity. therefore, gary was justified in seeking/searching for that information. it is a similar argument to the one used by Dr. Greer in his whistleblower justification (the u.s was acting outside the constitution when forcing individuals to sign confidentiality clauses, therefore breaking confidentiality is not a crime.) kerry is right, gary needs to play hardball not softball.

Absolutely.

The Governments worlwide are scared of such disclosure because it will bring the world to economic collapse(even though it is already happening now).
How will people react when they will know that we do not need Fuel to turn on our cars?

They want to continue ripping off the people for at least the next 200 years by standing on the idea of the "need to use Fuel and Oil".
Revealing Extraterrestrial Technology will ruin their plan.
Anyhow, those people are all criminals towards the population.

[zorgon]

i would base my defense on freedom of information. we have an existential right to know our reality. the u.s gov. while keeping e.t related information from the world, the u.s gov/military is committing crimes against humanity. therefore, gary was justified in seeking/searching for that information.

FOIA is superceded by National Security issues... basing a defence on a need to know by circumventing normal FOIA channels and hacking into National Security computers is not only stupid, but illogical

It is hard enough for US citizens to get the info through legal channels... but then some guy that is a foreign citizen is snooping around in a foreign gov. secured systems... now that is classed as espionage

All this does is defeat the purpose of hunting for info and make them clamp down even harder. No matter what you think of his intentions, no matter what you think of the current laws, no matter what you THINK you have a right to know...

The METHOD does NOT justify the REASON

John and I have for years (him longer than me) been talking and showing evidence of the secret astronaut corps. What happened? Ridicule, scorn, being labeled lunatics... yet you all claim you have a 'need to know' about the very same issue that we get ridiculed for...

Then suddenly PBD NOVA does a one hour documentary... called ASTROSPIES... using all the same data we have presented and WHAMMY there is the beginning of the secret astronaut corp on public display and they, because of better resources had the ability to go to the Pentagon and interview the people involved...


it is a similar argument to the one used by Dr. Greer in his whistleblower justification (the u.s was acting outside the constitution when forcing individuals to sign confidentiality clauses, therefore breaking confidentiality is not a crime.) kerry is right, gary needs to play hardball not softball.

If you haven't noticed, the Constitution doesn't much matter anymore to the PTB since 911. We let them sign in the Patriot Act, We let them create Homeland Security... all because we were led to believe the Terrorists are gonna get us...

Gary needs to play hardball? With what? He pled guilty... he committed (effectively) espionage... he admitted doing this while under the influence of an illegal drug... and he didn't save any evidence...

How will he play 'hardball' when the Judge says "Can you show evidence that what you say you found is true?"

Easy for arm chair critics to say "Be a Martyr" but how many here are writing a letter to their representative at the outrageous length of the sentence?

Has someone started a petition here in the US to send to congress asking for lieniency?

Talk is cheap...

the u.s gov. while keeping e.t related information from the world

He is not on trial about ET or UFO information... the issue is the SECRET astronaut corp. They may or may not have anything to do with ET and may simply be a space task force that is watching over Russia or China... and as such is a purely MILITARY issue not a UFO/ET issue...

Judging by the recent responses on Avalon re .mil links... I am surprised that anyone doesn't see the difference her..

If people would spend less time chest thumping and actually do research they would find that NASA is the small fish in the Space Program. They are the public front, the scapegoat... Why do you think they never take legal action against Hoagland or all the other "NASA lies" websites?

The US NAVY and USAF Space Command are the REAL space program. I can (and have) shown tons of legally obtained data on these very programs and just how extensive they are and have been.

You want to help Gary?

Take it to the media, lobby for lesser a sentence, write letters to officials...

But don't expect him to fall on his sword for people who really don't want the truth if it doesn't fit their preconceived niche

For those wishing more info on Space Command et all... feel free to drop me a line and I will point you to it :thumb_yello:

[Jacqui D]

What Gary did was commendable on the part that information of Et's be made public, but how and why he let himself be caught like he did i do not understand.
Having watched the interviews he did reveal that at one point a security guy was actually communicating with him! through the computor.
Now i would have got out then and there, why push the bounderies further when he already had evidence.

I wonder if he was allowed to find this info, if so what real agenda was going on there?

Could it really be that easy to hack into highly secret compartments like that, hm! i'm not sure. But i really do feel for the guy and hope he get off but that seems unlikely.:mfr_omg:

[PodWORLD]

He's not getting off. They specifically created a one way street law just for him.

Zorgon could you give me a nod in the right direction re the program. I tried pming but was logged out as usual.

Also there is a thread discussing secret UN meetings about disclosure. Do you have any info on this?

Kindest regards.

[bill7907]

After reading Kerry's report, she states the following:
"[...]his apparent lack of sophistication during the initial arrest[...]"

Does that mean he pled guilty by showing that he does not know to much about Hacking and he was just there as a very beginner hacker in this field and that the information was not to hard to find.

Anyhow, I believe that Garry is not that much of a beginner. I think he would be a pretty talented hacker to enter that security field.



As for Zorgon, I have not been following your story up to now.
It seems you have stuff to tell us but are you reluctant?

By the way, what we can do now is having contacts in the media field and let someone re-talk about the Gary McKinnon case on the news and divulge straight what he saw.

[Colin]

Whilst I sympathise with Gary's plight, this has nothing whatsoever to do with Project Avalon..

We already have a HUGE 'Gary' thread running in Project Camelot General Discussion..so I'm gonna merge this one with that:original:

[Tyler Macmillan]

Sigh. So I was just reading Bill and Kerry's update today about Gary KcKinnon, and their disappointment that he isn't seeking to bring forth testimonies about the Secret Space Program. I'm not exactly sure how I feel about this yet, but I must admit it seems like it would be a shame to miss a golden opportunity to have Burisch et al testify in a US court about what's really going on.

I must express my sincere support for Gary here, and what he has been through so far.

[Ampgod]

The thing I just can't understand here is that people defend his actions of hacking. That is wrong. Period. Gary's actions were illegal. What he found is secondary to his initial wrong doing. Not that what he found is not important. It is very important. But he was wrong to hack anything and he knows it.

What do you guys think?

[murnut]

The thing I just can't understand here is that people defend his actions of hacking. That is wrong. Period. Gary's actions were illegal. What he found is secondary to his initial wrong doing. Not that what he found is not important. It is very important. But he was wrong to hack anything and he knows it.

What do you guys think?

I agree with you, but I don't believe Gary "found" anything

[freekatz]

The thing I just can't understand here is that people defend his actions of hacking. That is wrong. Period. Gary's actions were illegal. What he found is secondary to his initial wrong doing. Not that what he found is not important. It is very important. But he was wrong to hack anything and he knows it.

What do you guys think?

Why is it so wrong to "hack" into government computers? they are after all supposed to be civil servants paid for by our taxes, they are not holy people above us. We all know full well that governments all over the world are witholding vital information from us.

Do you consider governments "hacking" into our email, phone lines and computer IP addresses is acceptable but god forbid we should try and check up on what they are up to? I think it is gross hypocrisy on the part of the government and the laws.

[bill7907]

The thing I just can't understand here is that people defend his actions of hacking. That is wrong. Period. Gary's actions were illegal. What he found is secondary to his initial wrong doing. Not that what he found is not important. It is very important. But he was wrong to hack anything and he knows it.

What do you guys think?

So it is wrong to try to see what the Government has been doing with all the American Tax they have collected from the people without telling them what they have used them for?

Right...


I am 100% with Gary.

[murnut]

Why is it so wrong to "hack" into government computers? they are after all supposed to be civil servants paid for by our taxes, they are not holy people above us. We all know full well that governments all over the world are witholding vital information from us.

Do you consider governments "hacking" into our email, phone lines and computer IP addresses is acceptable but god forbid we should try and check up on what they are up to? I think it is gross hypocrisy on the part of the government and the laws.

So by your reasoning, murder would be okay since the Govt does it...right?

Besides that, Gary is not a US citizen.

[murnut]

So it is wrong to try to see what the Government has been doing with all the American Tax they have collected from the people without telling them what they have used them for?

Right...


I am 100% with Gary.

Again...Gary is not a US citizen, therefore he had no right, by your own logic.

When a group says that the law does not apply, because the GOVT breaks the same law, they lose all credibility, in my eyes anyway.

Gary just refuses to accept the reality, that the accused don't get to choose their own punishment.

[freekatz]

So by your reasoning, murder would be okay since the Govt does it...right?

Besides that, Gary is not a US citizen.

Comparing computer hacking to murder is a little far fetched and infantile in my opinion.

I take it you would have as all click our heels and blindly obey rules no matter how arbitrary and unfair? Anyone who has the courage to break through the boundaries imposed by an oppressive system has my respect - I certainly don't see anyone being harmed by Gary's actions.

Being a U.S. citizen is neither here nor there, we are all citizens of this planet and the information Gary was seeking was relevant to us all.

Peace to you Murnut, I really dislike conflict:original:

[murnut]

Comparing computer hacking to murder is a little far fetched and infantile in my opinion.

I take it you would have as all click our heels and blindly obey rules no matter how arbitrary and unfair? Anyone who has the courage to break through the boundaries imposed by an oppressive system has my respect - I certainly don't see anyone being harmed by Gary's actions.

Being a U.S. citizen is neither here nor there, we are all citizens of this planet and the information Gary was seeking was relevant to us all.

Peace to you Murnut, I really dislike conflict:original:

We disagree, and I am allergic to cats.

I am trying to make a point that the way to defeat evil is not more evil.

Condoning hacking because ufology wants answers is no different than terrorists hacking networks.

Both think that they are in the right.

But let's assume for a moment that Gary is some type of noble Robin Hood, doing us all a favor, what happened to his balls once he got caught?

If he had any sense of right and wrong, he would have faced the music, but decided he did not like the tune of the consequences of his actions.

When the Ufo community anoints a coward as a hero, it is a sad day.

I don't post in reply to cause conflict, but to alert people that the reasons for supporting Gary are seriously misguided and hurt the credibility of work being done by the real heroes.

Gary was offered a plea agreement of less than 3 years and refused.

I have nothing against Gary, I feel bad that he has made so many poor decisions, but poor Gary has nobody to blame but himself.

[Ali Quadir]

The thing I just can't understand here is that people defend his actions of hacking. That is wrong. Period. Gary's actions were illegal. What he found is secondary to his initial wrong doing. Not that what he found is not important. It is very important. But he was wrong to hack anything and he knows it.
First of all, look up the definition of hacking.. Hacking is not illegal, it's slang for making something work for you that is not inclined to do so automatically. I'm a computer programmer. When we're in a hurry we hack things all the time... It's completely legal.. Just a little messy sometimes.

Since there was no protection on those computers and they were wide open you could even argue if Gary was in fact hacking... He made unauthorized access.

What do you guys think?

I think there's a difference between 6 months community service illegal and 60 years in a foreign jail, possibly Guantanamo illegal...

In real life: if there is no lock or notice keeping you out. Then you cannot determine if access is indeed illegal. And therefore it is not.. The owner of a real world site should make an effort to protect his site with a fence, a lock, or signs.

In cyberspace the laws are not different. Otherwise, if you enter a random IP address in your internet explorer. Then you might unknowingly break the law by making an "Unauthorized access"... In fact everyone on the web could trick you into doing so... If there is no attempt to protect the site by (for example) setting a password or placing a sign.. How would you know? You would not and therefore connecting to an open port with an appropriate client is not considered a crime.

It happened to me. I downloaded an SSH client. (Like a remote dos box) I ran it, and it had a default address. I figured it was to test drive the client like happens so often. So I connect. Next thing I know I have this screen which says that "connecting to the service" without authorization is a crime... Which I had apparently already committed...

How was I supposed to know that hitting connect would be a crime? Nobody told me. And it wasn't a crime.. To commit a crime you should at least know it is a crime. Or reasonably be able to suspect your act to be a crime.

Needless to say I disconnected. Trying to break a password I can understand IS a crime. Someone wants me to stay out, so I stay out. I'm not stupid.. But if they had not put a password there I would have effectively done a McKinnon on who knows whose site it was... And since I expected an open site to test the ssh client on I might not even have figured it out.


If I understand correctly it was not his "unauthorized access" that they used against him but the false claims that he damaged the computers he was on for a minimum of 5000 pounds... They should have asked the prosecutors to prove this. But since they were USA national security guys they did not have to prove it. Their word was enough... They say he "Intended" to damage those computers. And so that was the crime... His claims that he intended no such thing were not even heard..

The whole illegal access thing wasn't an issue to the prosecution... I think they didn't want to advertise that they didn't actually protect those computers. So they sued him on the damages but never really proved that there were in fact damages.

All you people talking about hacking and illegal access isn't even relevant to this case.

[murnut]

First of all, look up the definition of hacking.. Hacking is not illegal, it's slang for making something work for you that is not inclined to do so automatically. I'm a computer programmer. When we're in a hurry we hack things all the time... It's completely legal.. Just a little messy sometimes.

Since there was no protection on those computers and they were wide open you could even argue if Gary was in fact hacking... He made unauthorized access.



I think there's a difference between 6 months community service illegal and 60 years in a foreign jail, possibly Guantanamo illegal...

In real life: if there is no lock or notice keeping you out. Then you cannot determine if access is indeed illegal. And therefore it is not.. The owner of a real world site should make an effort to protect his site with a fence, a lock, or signs.

In cyberspace the laws are not different. Otherwise, if you enter a random IP address in your internet explorer. Then you might unknowingly break the law by making an "Unauthorized access"... In fact everyone on the web could trick you into doing so... If there is no attempt to protect the site by (for example) setting a password or placing a sign.. How would you know? You would not and therefore connecting to an open port with an appropriate client is not considered a crime.

It happened to me. I downloaded an SSH client. (Like a remote dos box) I ran it, and it had a default address. I figured it was to test drive the client like happens so often. So I connect. Next thing I know I have this screen which says that "connecting to the service" without authorization is a crime... Which I had apparently already committed...

How was I supposed to know that hitting connect would be a crime? Nobody told me. And it wasn't a crime.. To commit a crime you should at least know it is a crime. Or reasonably be able to suspect your act to be a crime.

Needless to say I disconnected. Trying to break a password I can understand IS a crime. Someone wants me to stay out, so I stay out. I'm not stupid.. But if they had not put a password there I would have effectively done a McKinnon on who knows whose site it was... And since I expected an open site to test the ssh client on I might not even have figured it out.


If I understand correctly it was not his "unauthorized access" that they used against him but the false claims that he damaged the computers he was on for a minimum of 5000 pounds... They should have asked the prosecutors to prove this. But since they were USA national security guys they did not have to prove it. Their word was enough... They say he "Intended" to damage those computers. And so that was the crime... His claims that he intended no such thing were not even heard..

The whole illegal access thing wasn't an issue to the prosecution... I think they didn't want to advertise that they didn't actually protect those computers. So they sued him on the damages but never really proved that there were in fact damages.

All you people talking about hacking and illegal access isn't even relevant to this case.


He hasn't even gone to trial yet, and obviously, you have not read the indictment.

Gary could get off completely, if he goes to trial.

60 years and Guantanamo are a complete exaggeration.

No "hacker" has ever gotten more than 10 years, and 95% are sentence to under 5.

Gary and some of his supporters have deliberately stretched the limits of the truth to play the sympathy card.

[zorgon]

Comparing computer hacking to murder is a little far fetched and infantile in my opinion.

So then...
If someone hacks a government computer..
And finds a list of names of foreign agents...
Then posts that list of names on the internet resulting in said agents being killed
How would you feel then?

What Gary supposedly found was a list of names...

IF these really were non terrestrial officers of some secret space fleet... and their names got out, their families could instantly become targets...

[zorgon]

How was I supposed to know that hitting connect would be a crime? Nobody told me. And it wasn't a crime.. To commit a crime you should at least know it is a crime. Or reasonably be able to suspect your act to be a crime.

So your support is based on the idea that Gary didn't know he was commiting a crime when he went DELIBERATELY looking into gov computers for a left open door?

So by that logic if I go out of my house one day and forget to lock the door, though its closed, that gives you the okay to walk in and rob me because I did not have a sign on my door saying keep out?

[anonypony]

The real questions here are

* What was the crime?
* And what is a PROPORTIONATE punishment?

Expanding on zorgon's analogy, Gary did no robbing, he just snooped around.
He did not murder anyone, nor did he cause anyone to become a target.

On the flip side if you did indeed leave your front door open and got robbed, you will most likely be treated by the police as the criminal, rather then the victim. No action whatsoever would be taken to investigate, find the robber, or pursue them in any way shape or form.

Gary admits to snooping around... Nothing more!

But snooping around is not enough to extradite someone, so we see an allegation of damage unfolds miraculously to the value of what would be sufficient to extradite someone.

Since the new one sided extradition agreement between the UK and USA, no evidence needs to be provided of an alleged crime, before the person is shipped off.

After the EU human right court refused to hear Gary's case, USA prosecutors admitted in a statement to the press, that the alleged damage would be very hard to prove, while at the same time a change to an existing law is introduced in the USA, where by damage is not needed to be proven to go after and hit the likes of Gary with the full wrath of the law. (Just a coincidence I am sure...)

Can we trust the USA to punish this crime PROPORTIONATELY?

What do you all think?

[murnut]

Can we trust the USA to punish this crime PROPORTIONATELY?

What do you all think?

What "hacker" has served more than 5 years?

One or two?

Most are out in less than 3.

But feel free to correct me, with facts.

[Ali Quadir]

So by that logic if I go out of my house one day and forget to lock the door, though its closed, that gives you the okay to walk in and rob me because I did not have a sign on my door saying keep out?

You're making a strawman here... If you leave your door open and I walk in, notice you're not at home and walk out, without robbing you then I did not commit a crime. Even if while Inside I look at the photo album on your desk...

Theres a difference between ethical behavior and committing crimes. It would not be ethical of me. But it would technically not be a crime.

If I ROB you then I commit a crime... If I take something that belongs to you that is not inside your house then I would commit a crime. The fact that there is a house around the object makes no difference.

No "hacker" has ever gotten more than 10 years, and 95% are sentence to under 5.

Gary and some of his supporters have deliberately stretched the limits of the truth to play the sympathy card.

Foreigners were kidnapped and trialled by the US some were even subjected to torture. People who committed less of a crime than McKinnon. Without any hearings. If I were the British I'd demand some very reliable guarantees for this man's welbeing and fair trial.

[murnut]

You're making a strawman here... If you leave your door open and I walk in, notice you're not at home and walk out, without robbing you then I did not commit a crime. Even if while Inside I look at the photo album on your desk...

Theres a difference between ethical behavior and committing crimes. It would not be ethical of me. But it would technically not be a crime.

If I ROB you then I commit a crime... If I take something that belongs to you that is not inside your house then I would commit a crime. The fact that there is a house around the object makes no difference.



Foreigners were kidnapped and trialled by the US some were even subjected to torture. People who committed less of a crime than McKinnon. Without any hearings. If I were the British I'd demand some very reliable guarantees for this man's welbeing and fair trial.

Gary installed software....he "changed the locks".

Not exactly "no harm"

You refer to enemy combatants, this is not how Gary has been charged.

If you read the decisions which Gary has lost there are multiple assurances of fairness.

Gary has had due process.

He has gotten terrible legal advice.

And Gary's side has only been interested in distorting the facts.

I understand how they feel, but understand how it hurts the overall credibility of UFO researchers who have never broken the law and are doing everything they legally can do to bring about disclosure.

[zorgon]

I understand how they feel, but understand how it hurts the overall credibility of UFO researchers who have never broken the law and are doing everything they legally can do to bring about disclosure.


This may in fact be the KEY to this whole issue... Had Gary been US citizen it would not have gone this far... but he was a foreigner... As such they can use this to make a bigger issue of it...

Add that to these three items...

1) Bill HR 1955, passed in the House

2) Pentagon: The internet needs to be dealt with as if it were an enemy "weapons system".
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=7980

2a) US plans to 'fight the net' revealed
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4655196.stm

3) Internet presents web of security issues
http://www.defenselink.mil/specials/websecurity/

Perhaps they are using this to further their plans to control the internet. If they can show that outsiders like Gary with minimal skills can do what they claim he did... it would give them leverage to place heavy restrictions on the internet

[bill7907]

What "hacker" has served more than 5 years?

One or two?

Most are out in less than 3.

But feel free to correct me, with facts.


This is not a normal hacker case.
He saw very confidential documents that are probably responsible for all this secrecy.
They would put him far from everyone so that he doesn't spread the truth concerning that issue.
You are corrected.

[murnut]

This is not a normal hacker case.
He saw very confidential documents that are probably responsible for all this secrecy.
They would put him far from everyone so that he doesn't spread the truth concerning that issue.
You are corrected.

Ha....his story is all over every paper in the UK. Secrecy indeed!

Do you really think the people that run the cover up are this stupid?

If he had really had seen anything worth covering up, you would have never had heard his name ever.

Gary I think has exaggerated his claims.

I doubt the "Secret Space Program" files or UFO files are on/were on networks able to be accessed.

The Greatest secrets in the history of the world, enforced by the best cover up ever.....were left on a open network?

Not believable!

[anonypony]

Perhaps they are using this to further their plans to control the internet. If they can show that outsiders like Gary with minimal skills can do what they claim he did... it would give them leverage to place heavy restrictions on the internet
I tend to agree with you (Zorgon) all heartedly.

It has been my personal view right from the word go, that controlling the internet was always the main reason for this case. Other aspects of this case may serve a purpose too, but restricting and controlling the internet was the main aim.

I say 'was' because I think whoever is behind the original master plan, underestimated how long it will take to get Gary and since he was first caught till now, the control and surveillance over the internet has changed beyond recognition. (The agenda achieved without Gary’s case)

One thing is clear - when there is an 'agenda' - it always manifests one way or another, and those who are behind it, never relay on just one avenue to achieve their aim.

I also hold the view that 9 out of 10 they tell us well in advance what the plan is, but very few take note of those nuggets when they appear a mid the white noise the media constantly generates.

To illustrate both points I can recall a televised speech by bush senior it was the evening of 911 and the speech was before some business association. He said amongst other things related to the events of that morning: The internet as you know it will change! It can not stay free as it is. We will control and restrict it. Easy to ignore such statements when they are made a mid the biggest mass mind control exercise ever unlashed on the people of this earth... Nevertheless the agenda was clearly stated wide in the open.

Did the internet change? I can share with you that since I made contact with Bill and Kerry regarding this case, my phone, email and skype are all taped! Now, I have nothing to hide, as far as I know supporting the ply for justice of another human being is no crime, yet the initial feeling I experienced was that of violation and intimidation... The outcome of such actions is a clear violation of ones privacy and freedom of speech and designed to intimidate one to stop their activities. So yes from my perspective the internet has changed!

Take this forum and thread, the ‘paid to post’ thought police is here in full force - keep reiterating the same points ad infinitum, no matter what the discussion is about, just like well media trained politicians, when interviewed by the likes of Snow and Paxman who insist on getting answers to their questions...

Another thing that supports the view that this case aims to further their plans to control the internet, is the fact that Gary did not tell the media what he has seen until the USA ordered his extradition in 2004, some 4 years into the case. Viewing this case from that perspective also explains why this case started with such hype, branded by the USA as the ‘biggest ever hack’ or as ‘cyber terrorism’ with great damage alleged to later on being played down as time passes and the agenda being fulfilled anyway, too many questions are raised and finger pointing towards torture and abuse of human rights, law changes, shorter sentence promises, and on and on.

The reason why Gary would never get a fair trial is perfectly illustrated by posting such as Murnat’s : “Gary installed software....he "changed the locks". Not exactly "no harm" If you read the decisions which Gary has lost there are multiple assurances of fairness. Gary has had due process. And Gary's side has only been interested in distorting the facts.”
The truth can’t be further from those statements. The facts are: if you do indeed read the House of Lords decision, you will see the word ‘alleged’ before any accusation, because that is precisely what they are UN PROVEN ALEGATIONS! Presenting it like Murnat does here, where what is alleged is presented as proven fact, when in fact the allegations has never been proven, or even discussed in all the legal coming and going to date. That is the real distortion not to mention libellous...

Through years of research it is my observation that beyond the existence of conspiracies lay a vast sea of incompetence, which we tend to underestimate... As I understand it, it only takes one user having his/her computer unprotected and plugged to both networks at the same time, for someone like Gary to have open access to hundreds of un protected machines and users who incompetently think they are secure by the fact that their network is separate from the public internet.

[murnut]

Apony,

Not exactly. Gary has has due process in his extradition process.

He has lost his appeals.

Just how many do you think are in on the "Get Gary" campaign?

Yes, he has not had his day in court yet.

But he has done nothing except try to avoid it.

I hope he gets off, I really do.

I just hope he does not further damage the credibility of the Real heroes along the way.

Paid to post my ass

[EliaDempsey]

I was saddened and disturbed to read in the October 13th Camelot up-date about Gary Mc Kinnon's extradition from the U.K. to the United States to stand trial. However dire his situation might appear, there is a divine Law of Adjustment that can overturn his situation and bring forth a positive outcome. I would like to enlist the support of every member of Project Avalon to keep Gary in our thoughts and prayers. No so-called human power can withstand the power of Truth and Love. Let's not underestimate the power of our collective intention.

[beauwalton@rocketmail.com]

I half heard something on the BBC to day, they said the Scottish government are going to try to keep him here on medical grounds, or something along those lines, pretty vague I know but if it's true we will hear something soon!

Hope so.

[Antaletriangle]

Gibson:Is Mckinnon still here?
Thursday 30 October 2008, 5:39 PM

Posted by Tom Espiner



http://community.zdnet.co.uk/blog/0,1000000567,10009656o-2000331828b,00.htm?new_comment

You wouldn't expect one of the FBI agents involved in the case of Gary McKinnon to have much sympathy with the alleged Nasa hacker. Ed Gibson, who now works for Microsoft as its security adviser to the UK, in a previous life worked as an FBI legal attache in the UK, and was involved in McKinnon's controversial plea bargaining process.

McKinnon is accused of "the biggest military hack of all time" for accessing US military computers, and faces almost certain extradition. McKinnon, who claims he was looking for evidence of UFOs, has never denied accessing the military computers, but denies deliberately deleting files and causing damage. He was recently diagnosed with Asperger's Syndrome, a condition on the autistic spectrum.

The temperature at an RSA Conference Europe press event plummeted when I raised the subject of McKinnon's probable extradition with Gibson. I asked the ex-FBI agent whether he thought Gary McKinnon's Asperger's diagnosis should have any bearing on whether or not McKinnon should be extradited. Gibson replied:

"I think Jacqui Smith made the determination -- the Asperger's diagnosis shouldn't have any bearing [on whether McKinnon is extradited]," said Gibson. "Is he still here?"

When I said that yes, McKinnon was still here, Gibson said: "Why?" I said that his defence lawyers were seeking a judicial review of Home Secretary Jacqui Smith's decision to extradite the self-confessed hacker, given his Asperger's diagnosis.

The already chilly atmosphere in the press room dropped still further when I quizzed Gibson as to his role in the plea bargaining. Gibson is believed to have told Karen Todner, McKinnon's solicitor, that the New Jersey authorities were determined to see McKinnon "fry" for his alleged crimes, should he be extradited. New Jersey has the death penalty.

When I asked Gibson whether he had threatened that McKinnon could "fry", Gibson muttered: "That was never said. The court records are really clear."

I was curious as to whether that was correct, so I gave Karen Todner a ring. She told me she had sworn an affadavit that Gibson had said McKinnon could "fry", while Gibson had sworn an affadavit that he hadn't said that.

"[Gibson] later sent me an email insisting he hadn't said that," said Todner.

Hmmm, sounds to me that it still isn't "really clear" exactly what was said at all.
http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/scotland/Calls-grow-to-save-.4643340.jp
Calls grow to save autistic Scots hacker from threat of US prison

Published Date: 30 October 2008
By Gerri Peev
PRESSURE is growing on the Home Secretary to step in and halt the extradition of a Scots-born autistic computer hacker who is facing up to 60 years in a US prison.

Shadow justice minister David Burrowes MP was today set to put down a motion in parliament calling on Jacqui Smith to review the medical records of Gary McKinnon who is only weeks away from being sent to the US.

Mr McKinnon's supporters claim he was merely looking for information on his UFO hobby rather than being "the biggest military computer hacker of all time" as the US claims.

The supporters say the unemployed UFO obsessive, who suffers from Asperger's Syndrome, has become a recluse and is on suicide watch after becoming depressed while awaiting his looming extradition.

In the US he faces life in prison for using his dial-up modem to hack into computer systems at the Pentagon and at Nasa between 2001 and 2003.

The Glasgow-born 42-year-old went from being a cannabis-smoking hacker looking for conspiracy theories on UFOs to America's most wanted cyber-terrorist after 9/11.

So far, an appeal to the House of Lords has been rejected and now Mr McKinnon's legal team is waiting for a judgment on a judicial review which it has asked for in light of his recent diagnosis with Asperger's.

A decision on the review is due imminently. Should this be turned down, he will have just ten days to pack his bags, possibly never to return.

Mr Burrowes, his MP, is demanding his extradition be halted until his condition has been more carefully assessed. Last night he said: "My concern is also over this extradition treaty where UK citizens are being plucked out of our country without evidence and facing the full force of the American law."

The Home Secretary is also facing pressure to ensure Mr McKinnon is at least allowed to return to the UK on bail before the many months that could await him before a trial.

Mr Burrowes pointed out nationals of countries such as Israel and the Netherlands are allowed to serve their sentences at home, and asked why Mr McKinnon has to be sent to America.
cont.on link above.

[RSF]

How do you want to proof the damages?
We all know that damages can be maked up post-crime.
I hope the judge/jury considers that.

In dubio pro reo - benefit of the doubt




And I would like to know if there are any sketches or so of the things Gary saw, I'm very curios because only from his narrations it's hardly to imagine.
He also was quite vaguely.

---

Hah ? I'd like to know what dimension your flowering in ?

------------------

As far as Gary?, Would like to respect the USA will treat him and his proved hacking and/or espionage with the same jurisprudence the UK would under similar circumstances.

Seems to me the man's in some serious trouble if convicted.

RSF

[anonypony]

Just to let you know what is going on at the mo. The following article was published in the Guardian this morning and it reflects the state of things as far as I know. However it does not mention the fact, that you can send a letter to your MP or all MPs and ask them to sign the Early Day Motion No. 2388 ‘Extradition of Gary McKinnon’ (brought by his local MP David Burrowes, 30/10/2008) at the earliest opportunity.

If you like to support Gary Please keep the pressure on...

When I hear the phrase 'Cross Party' I can't help but think - what they really mean and are signalling to the public is - Don't get exited, we all agree here, that something needs to be done, go back to sleep and we will swipe this under the carpet, ops... take care of it, while you are not looking, you will not even know it was ever here...
:harp::harp:
Please keep the pressure on...

I think the UK Government is concerned, that the public will wake up to the fact that the extradition laws they have signed are one sided and should have never been signed in the first place. But when the blind leading the blind what can we expect...



Cross-party attempt to fight extradition of British hacker


Duncan Campbell (http://www.guardian.co.uk/profile/duncancampbell)
The Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/theguardian),
Monday November 3 2008

Senior politicians from all parties are urging the home secretary, Jacqui Smith, to halt the extradition of the computer hacker Gary McKinnon unless she receives a guarantee from the US that he will be allowed to serve any sentence imposed in Britain.

The former home secretary David Blunkett is among those who believe that, because McKinnon has been diagnosed with Asperger's syndrome, he should be immediately repatriated if convicted.

In an early day motion, the shadow justice minister, David Burrowes, has urged Smith not to permit the extradition without assurances from the US that McKinnon would be repatriated to serve any sentence in the UK if found guilty.

Burrowes, the MP for the Enfield Southgate constituency in north London, where McKinnon lives, has alerted the home secretary to the "accepted practice" of the Dutch and Israeli governments requiring assurances from the US that any nationals with medical or mental health disabilities being deported to face trial should be repatriated to serve any sentence imposed.

Blunkett, who was in office when the 2003 Extradition Act was passed, said yesterday that he was supporting calls for McKinnon to serve any sentence in the UK because of his "special needs".

Burrowes's motion has already been supported by Chris Huhne, the Lib Dem home affairs spokesman, Chris Mullin, the former Foreign Office minister, and the Tory MP John Bercow.

Burrowes has also asked Harriet Harman, the leader of the house, for a debate on the proposed extradition. He noted that the house had debated the case of the NatWest Three, also known as the Enron Three, and asked Harman: "Can at least similar efforts be made on behalf of my constituent, who is a vulnerable young man of little means who was ... recently diagnosed with Asperger's syndrome?"

Lord West, the Home Office minister with responsibility for security, wrote to Burrowes last week telling him that "we reconsidered ... but found no grounds for overturning the order to surrender".

McKinnon has also had support from the leading constitutional lawyer Geoffrey Robertson QC. "Jack Straw bent over backwards to accommodate Pinochet's medical condition," said Robertson, in a reference to the decision not to extradite the late Chilean dictator because he had been diagnosed with Alzheimer's.

"It is highly unsatisfactory that this gifted and unusual British citizen should be extradited to face a massive sentence when he could have been prosecuted here before a British jury."

Lawyers acting for McKinnon, 42, are seeking a judicial review of the case.
McKinnon's mother, Janis Sharp, said: "Gary has Asperger's syndrome ... He believed the UK police when, almost seven years ago, they told him he would probably get six months' community service. Without having engaged a lawyer, he naively admitted to computer misuse but has always denied the alleged damage."

[anonypony]

This is a sample letter asking your MP and all MPs to sign Early Day Motion No. 2388.

The best thing you can do, is write your own, second best - modify the one here to suit you view, if all of the above is not an option please feel free to use this one add mp name and you signature at the end.

BW
AP

MP -
House of Commons
London, SW1A 0AA

Dear MP

I am writing to you that you may consider and sign the Early Day Motion No. 2388 ‘Extradition of Gary McKinnon’ (brought by his local MP David Burrowes, 30/10/2008) at the earliest opportunity.

The purpose of EDM 2388 is to have the current Extradition Treaty between the UK and the USA amended whereby vulnerable people, such as those with Aspergers Syndrome, a form of Autism, or other mental health issues could not be extradited to the US until they have been given express assurances from the US authorities that in the event of being found guilty, and facing a period of imprisonment, they would be immediately repatriated to serve their sentence in the UK.

Thus the vulnerable would be close to their family, and within reach of long term doctors or specialists who may have worked with them in the past and understand their requirements.

Accused by the US authorities of hacking into and damaging US military and NASA computers, Gary McKinnon admits entering their computer systems in search of information about UFO’s and free energy but denies causing damage.

Gary has recently been confirmed by a number of leading professionals in the field as having Aspergers Syndrome, a form of Autism. It was brought to his family’s attention by members of the Autism community who recognised common traits in his behaviour during recent media exposure. Unfortunately the discovery and diagnosis only came to light after the various unsuccessful appeals in the UK against his extradition.

The emphasis of my letter to you concerns Gary, yet it has far wider implications. Whether you feel Gary should be extradited or not, is it not imperative that UK citizens are protected by their country? Whilst the extradition treaty currently subjects all UK residents to the unanswerable and unproven demands of a foreign state, allowances must be made, as I believe in the Netherlands and Israel, to protect the vulnerable.

Thank you for reading this – please sign EDM 2388 and request your fellow MP’s to also sign. This issue is far too important – I urge you to view it and act with compassion.

Yours sincerely,

[murnut]

Trial in the States, sentence to be served in Britain, if any.

This, I have no problem with.

Fair enough?

[anonypony]

So I take it you will be sending your letters too?

[murnut]

No...I won't.

I am an American.

I am not represented in the UK.

But I have semi-relatives in the UK that do support Gary.



So you would support Gary's trial in the States, and serving in UK?

[zorgon]

I would think that the last thing the government wants at this point is a lot of publicity, that would get the public curious.

Really? If that was true... they would have handled it quietly... simply...

All it would have taken was a deal... with a promise to never say another word or get the full sentence...

Or a car accident... or a sudden illness :wink2:

The fact that they are pushing this to this point is actually BROADCASTING the affair... DELIBERATELY drawing public attention to it...

Think about that... many more important people have simply 'disappeared' in the past...


So WHEN is he actually being brought over? I though the last appeal was done?:smoke:

[Kathleen]

So you see this as prelude to disclosure? Or make an example or both?

[murnut]

Really? If that was true... they would have handled it quietly... simply...

All it would have taken was a deal... with a promise to never say another word or get the full sentence...

Or a car accident... or a sudden illness :wink2:

The fact that they are pushing this to this point is actually BROADCASTING the affair... DELIBERATELY drawing public attention to it...

Think about that... many more important people have simply 'disappeared' in the past...


So WHEN is he actually being brought over? I though the last appeal was done?:smoke:

Gary has a new hope...the Saviour Obama.

If that doesn't work, he might try the Pope.

You raise some excellent points Zorgon.

At one point in time i thought Gary might be some sort of catalyst for disclosure.

But that brief moment faded when it became apparent that he was scared to face the music.

The only thing that makes sense is Gary is simply a computer hacker who got caught intruding into the US military, and they won't drop the case as much as "poor gary" wants them to.

This is all much ado about nothing more than military hacking.

[murnut]

I hate the forum in green

how can I change it...or have I been hacked?

[David]

I guess because this is a government offense, trial will be held behind closed doors and the public will never get to hear the true story.

[murnut]

I guess because this is a government offense, trial will be held behind closed doors and the public will never get to hear the true story.

No, it will be in open court.

What Gary saw or did not see, is not what is on trial, therefore irrelevant.

Why do we feed the enigma of making this case, something that it is clearly not.

[murnut]

Wow...the forum is back to blue.

Thank you dear PtB

[sleepingnomore]

Hi, KL:

That is one great graphic.

May we send this to him? We're in close touch. We'd invite him to post here, but he's legally prohibited from using a computer.

As you may have read on Camelot, we've been working behind the scenes to organize him a US lawyer, and also passing on other information that might help.

You may also know that Dan Burisch and Marci McDowell have gone on record to say that they will be willing to be called to the witness box under penalty of perjury to state what they know about the secret space program. This is pretty huge... more on this later.

Very best, Bill

My gut feeling tells me they will never allow this trial to be public in any way. There is no justice in the US. They will probably lock him away in Langley for a very long time and hope interest wanes in this case.

[murnut]

My gut feeling tells me they will never allow this trial to be public in any way. There is no justice in the US. They will probably lock him away in Langley for a very long time and hope interest wanes in this case.

dream on

[NancyV]

I have just finished reading this entire thread and a few very good logical arguments and comments have been posted, most notably by Murnut and Zorgon (in my opinion of course). If Gary had not been an inept, stoner who seems to have been playing at this like it was a computer game, what with leaving threats on government computers and hacking from a DIAL UP computer, for heavens sake!!!!, he probably would have been "offered" a choice - go to work for the government, or be disappeared.

He's most likely only being made an example of because he's a foreigner AND he is a bungler. GREAT hackers are a true danger to the PTB, and most of them end up working FOR the government or having an accident. Inept hackers are a bother and occasionally get made examples of. Whether or not Gary was a random choice out of the many inept hackers, so what. He played the game, he took his chances knowing there were laws he was breaking that might have serious consequences, and he did it very stupidly. Far from a hero I feel that he is now just a rather pathetic pawn for both sides. He is being used as an example by the PTB and he's being used as a "hero" or cause celebre by the UFO or alternative community. He's still just a pawn, and apparently not very intelligent or he might have cut his losses when he had the chance. If you're going to play with the big boys, get ready for the backlash if you are found out.

As far as breaking laws to find out information, I have no real problem with that, but only if you're an EXPERT at finding out things and BETTER at it, than the guys who are keeping things secret. Otherwise you should stick to finding out through channels where you won't be tangling with the PTB, because they play for keeps, and for the most part the guys in the intelligence field aren't stupid just because they work for the government. Underestimating them is a sign of very poor judgement.

Gary obviously (at least to me) was a loose cannon with no finesse and no knowledge of what he was dealing with, or if he had some knowledge, maybe the dope smoking gave him a false and ignorant sense of bravado. It is imperative to truly know the scope of your own abilities. If you decide to do something illegal, no matter WHAT your motivations and whether or not you agree with the law, be prepared for the results if you get caught. That's just plain common sense.

You may think the US Government is a "terrorist" government, but they are no different than other governments. The true PTB manipulate all governments. If you want to be a counter terrorist against "terrorist" governments you darn well better train and prepare yourself instead of thinking that just because you have certain beliefs in "truth" and "goodness" that makes you better than the bad guys. You have to know how to be BADDER than the bad guys, and yes, it can endanger your own soul, at least temporarily. You will often be using the same means you despise to fight that which you wish to destroy. But it's all a game in the long run, isn't it.

That is ONE way to fight the PTB, but there is another way. Develop your innate "spiritual" powers to the point where you don't have to fight with the same tools the PTB use. Do not engage with them on their level and don't play their game. If you remain in conflict you will perpetuate the game you seem to want to escape. As Murnut says, what will you replace them with? Just more of the same. In order to end the game you may only end it for yourself! This battle will never really be a group effort. But if you do want to continue living in their world of conflict, fear, action and reaction, please at least do not be a bungler like "poor" Gary McKinnon was and still seems to be.

Nancy

[murnut]

I do feel bad for Gary.

I know he is sick.

He is making himself sick perhaps, worrying about what was going to happen to him.

He would have been out long ago had he not just faced up to it.

There was never any threat of Guantanamo, or military tribunals, or torture.

Gary got very poor advice along the way, or maybe he got good advice that he chose to ignore.

Gary if you read this, get this over with.

Make a deal and move on with your life.

Don't listen to those that would use you to further their own cause

[TheGhost]

Use this web page to find your MP and email the letter:

http://www.writetothem.com/

People need to HASSLE their MPs about this. I sent an email and got a reply from my MP the next day saying, essentially, he is not interested. So, I will be going to see him at his surgery on Friday to speak to him in person about the matter!!
Maybe you could do the same thing.



This is a sample letter asking your MP and all MPs to sign Early Day Motion No. 2388.

The best thing you can do, is write your own, second best - modify the one here to suit you view, if all of the above is not an option please feel free to use this one add mp name and you signature at the end.

BW
AP

MP -
House of Commons
London, SW1A 0AA

Dear MP

I am writing to you that you may consider and sign the Early Day Motion No. 2388 ‘Extradition of Gary McKinnon’ (brought by his local MP David Burrowes, 30/10/2008) at the earliest opportunity.

The purpose of EDM 2388 is to have the current Extradition Treaty between the UK and the USA amended whereby vulnerable people, such as those with Aspergers Syndrome, a form of Autism, or other mental health issues could not be extradited to the US until they have been given express assurances from the US authorities that in the event of being found guilty, and facing a period of imprisonment, they would be immediately repatriated to serve their sentence in the UK.

Thus the vulnerable would be close to their family, and within reach of long term doctors or specialists who may have worked with them in the past and understand their requirements.

Accused by the US authorities of hacking into and damaging US military and NASA computers, Gary McKinnon admits entering their computer systems in search of information about UFO’s and free energy but denies causing damage.

Gary has recently been confirmed by a number of leading professionals in the field as having Aspergers Syndrome, a form of Autism. It was brought to his family’s attention by members of the Autism community who recognised common traits in his behaviour during recent media exposure. Unfortunately the discovery and diagnosis only came to light after the various unsuccessful appeals in the UK against his extradition.

The emphasis of my letter to you concerns Gary, yet it has far wider implications. Whether you feel Gary should be extradited or not, is it not imperative that UK citizens are protected by their country? Whilst the extradition treaty currently subjects all UK residents to the unanswerable and unproven demands of a foreign state, allowances must be made, as I believe in the Netherlands and Israel, to protect the vulnerable.

Thank you for reading this – please sign EDM 2388 and request your fellow MP’s to also sign. This issue is far too important – I urge you to view it and act with compassion.

Yours sincerely,

[TheGhost]

"Gary has has due process in his extradition process"

Really?? Because the Extradition Act 2003 does not require the US authrorities to provide the British courts with ANY evidence before demanding the extradition of a British citizen.
This is part of the fast-track extradition "treaty" between the US & Britain which was only signed by the British side and not the Americans (so not really a treaty, then).
The Extradition Act 2003 constitues TREASON by the British government, in my humble opinion, as it favours the interests of a foreign government over the interests of British citizens.

Would you like it if you faced extradition to Britain with no evidence of an alleged crime being presented by British authorities at your court hearing?

How does one defend themselves when the prosecution is not required to provide evidence? The claim of a crime is now enough for British citizens to be extradited to the US.


Apony,

Not exactly. Gary has has due process in his extradition process.

He has lost his appeals.

Just how many do you think are in on the "Get Gary" campaign?

Yes, he has not had his day in court yet.

But he has done nothing except try to avoid it.

I hope he gets off, I really do.

I just hope he does not further damage the credibility of the Real heroes along the way.

Paid to post my ass

[Antaletriangle]

Recent links to Gary's plights,nov 5th news:
http://www.computerweekly.com/Articles/2008/11/03/233184/politicians-rally-behind-hacker-gary-mckinnon.htm
British politicians are coming out in support of self-confessed hacker Gary McKinnon to prevent him serving a jail term in the US.

McKinnon faces imminent extradition to the US to face trial for allegedly hacking more than 73,000 computers belonging to the US Army, Navy and Department of Defense.

David Burrowes, shadow justice minister, has urged home secretary Jaqui Smith to halt McKinnon's extradition unless the US allows him to serve any sentence in Britain.

cont.on link above.
http://news.zdnet.co.uk/security/0,1000000189,39539057,00.htm
New song by gary mckinnon,'Only a fool':
Gary McKinnon, the British hacker, has been gaining support from politicians for his fight against extradition to the US, but the UFO obsessive has also won fans amonst MySpacers.

McKinnon has managed to storm the MySpace charts with a tune of his own creation called Only A Fool.

The song reached number five in the MySpace video chart within 48 hours of being posted.

"Don't stop don't say it don't matter," sings McKinnon, "If it ain't easy, try harder; Only a fool would let it go."

Hit the arrow button to hear what must be one of the most unexpected tunes of the year.


http://www.pocket-lint.co.uk/news/news.phtml/18951/19975/view.phtml

http://www.projectavalon.net/forum/picture.php?albumid=17&pictureid=4439

[murnut]

I understand what you are saying, but extradition does not mean conviction.

Gary should NOT have admitted his guilt, but he did.

Gary, I am sure you will feel better when this is behind you.

Get it over with, and go back to having a life.



"Gary has has due process in his extradition process"

Really?? Because the Extradition Act 2003 does not require the US authrorities to provide the British courts with ANY evidence before demanding the extradition of a British citizen.
This is part of the fast-track extradition "treaty" between the US & Britain which was only signed by the British side and not the Americans (so not really a treaty, then).
The Extradition Act 2003 constitues TREASON by the British government, in my humble opinion, as it favours the interests of a foreign government over the interests of British citizens.

Would you like it if you faced extradition to Britain with no evidence of an alleged crime being presented by British authorities at your court hearing?

How does one defend themselves when the prosecution is not required to provide evidence? The claim of a crime is now enough for British citizens to be extradited to the US.

[Orion11]

hi mur, well said.

and your page was really green?? lol
ive never seen that before here....

[TheGhost]

"extradition does not mean conviction" - he shouldn't even be facing trial in a foreign country!

"Gary, I am sure you will feel better when this is behind you." - he's facing up to seventy (70) years in prison. At what point, specifically, does he put it behind him if he is convicted and sentenced to seventy years??


I ask you again: how does one defend themselves when the prosecution is not required to provide evidence?


I understand what you are saying, but extradition does not mean conviction.

Gary should NOT have admitted his guilt, but he did.

Gary, I am sure you will feel better when this is behind you.

Get it over with, and go back to having a life.

[murnut]

hi mur, well said.

and your page was really green?? lol
ive never seen that before here....

it was green...bright lime green

[murnut]

"extradition does not mean conviction" - he shouldn't even be facing trial in a foreign country!

"Gary, I am sure you will feel better when this is behind you." - he's facing up to seventy (70) years in prison. At what point, specifically, does he put it behind him if he is convicted and sentenced to seventy years??


I ask you again: how does one defend themselves when the prosecution is not required to provide evidence?

The 70 years is exaggerated, 90 % of hacking crimes have sentences below 5 years, most serve less than 2, which is about what Gary was offered in a plea agreement, WHICH HE REFUSED.

Gary should not have admitted his guilt, but he did.... and his health has been made worse by the ufo community putting their concerns before Gary's.

They have urged Gary to fight their fight for them.

Shame on them!

They are just as much to blame as anyone for this debacle.

But the ultimate blame lies with Gary himself.

Make a deal Gary, you will feel so much better.

And if you want to improve your chances of a deal in your favor, stop with the insinuations of Guantanamo, torture, and tribunals.

You might catch more flies with honey.

Your offer of vinegar, has obviously not worked.

PC's offer of Danny B and Marcia M to testify in your behalf only serves the agenda of the ufo fringe, and has no legal standing in relation to the charges.

Those who get favorable plea agreements, generally apologize and are contrite.

Those that do this serve less than 18 mos on average.

Please get some competent legal advise.

[TheGhost]

The 70 year possibility is not an exaggeration whatsoever. He found some VERY sensitive information about the US military's capabilities (non-terrestrial officers).

The plea agreement he was offered was not legally binding for the US authroities, i.e. it wasn't worth the paper it was written on, therefore it was not an offer he could accept.

He admitted to "hacking" (and I use that term loosely) but he did not admit to causing damage to the computers, which is what the US authorities are charging him with (lo-and-behold, precisely $5,000 worth of damage per computer - the minimum necessary to bring charges).

Gary is not the one who is making insinuations. The prosecutor said he wanted to see him "fry" - insinuating the death penalty (or perhaps an acccident?).


And I ask you yet again: how does one defend themselves when the prosecution is not required to provide evidence?


The 70 years is exaggerated, 90 % of hacking crimes have sentences below 5 years, most serve less than 2, which is about what Gary was offered in a plea agreement, WHICH HE REFUSED.

Gary should not have admitted his guilt, but he did.... and his health has been made worse by the ufo community putting their concerns before Gary's.

They have urged Gary to fight their fight for them.

Shame on them!

They are just as much to blame as anyone for this debacle.

But the ultimate blame lies with Gary himself.

Make a deal Gary, you will feel so much better.

And if you want to improve your chances of a deal in your favor, stop with the insinuations of Guantanamo, torture, and tribunals.

You might catch more flies with honey.

Your offer of vinegar, has obviously not worked.

PC's offer of Danny B and Marcia M to testify in your behalf only serves the agenda of the ufo fringe, and has no legal standing in relation to the charges.

Those who get favorable plea agreements, generally apologize and are contrite.

Those that do this serve less than 18 mos on average.

Please get some competent legal advise.

[murnut]

The 70 year possibility is not an exaggeration whatsoever. He found some VERY sensitive information about the US military's capabilities (non-terrestrial officers).

The plea agreement he was offered was not legally binding for the US authroities, i.e. it wasn't worth the paper it was written on, therefore it was not an offer he could accept.

He admitted to "hacking" (and I use that term loosely) but he did not admit to causing damage to the computers, which is what the US authorities are charging him with (lo-and-behold, precisely $5,000 worth of damage per computer - the minimum necessary to bring charges).

Gary is not the one who is making insinuations. The prosecutor said he wanted to see him "fry" - insinuating the death penalty (or perhaps an acccident?).


And I ask you yet again: how does one defend themselves when the prosecution is not required to provide evidence?

First you hire a competent attorney, then at the trial you put on a defense.

But if he was smart, he would plead.

That is what most caught hackers do.



Garys lawyers have exhausted his legal options in fighting the extradition charges.

How many appeals has he had? 3? 4? Is everyone out to get Gary?

Think about that.


You my friend, have been sold on the hype.

But if he is actually foolish enough to go to trial, then his lawyers will put on the best defense he can....which is what exactly?

The evil PtB defense?

The Danny B defense?


In fact Gary has no defense other than to ask for proof of the damage....since he already admitted the hacking.

The anti American statements did not help either.

Guess what, they have the a paper trail of repair receipts.

Then you may say that all of the evidence is faked.

But where is the evidence that supports Gary innocence?

Even if he really saw what he says he saw, and he had evidence, this would only be evidence of his guilt.

I still maintain that this info Gary claims to have seen, has never been on open servers.

[TheGhost]

"Is everyone out to get Gary?" - no, the US military/Shadow Government is out to get him and they are exerting pressure on others so that they can get their hands on him.
Asking the question "Is everyone out to get Gary?" suggests you think my arguments mean there must be a vast conspiracy involving thousands of people, or something. Obviously this is not the case.
You appear to be resorting to the arguemnet that if I believe he is being treated unfairly or even illegally it must be because I think it is being done by a vast network of people and it is unthinkable that a vast network of people could/would be out to get him and so I must be wrong. This is a very poor argument.

You seem to think that he should/deserves to be in this situation.
1) the alleged crimes occurred on British soil and so if any charges are brought it should be under British law in a British court,
2) the Extradition Act 2003 is essentially a treasonous document - selling out the rights of British citizens in favour of a foreign government.
He should not be faced with extradition to and trial in a foreign country, whatsoever.

"You my friend, have been sold on the hype." - I've been sold on the hype?!? You do not (or cannot) give me any counter arguments to the points I have made and so you resort to ridiculous statements like that.

"if he is actually foolish enough to go to trial" - it's foolish to defend oneself, is it?? Wow, that is a very big statement. I wonder what kind of justice would be served if you created the laws of the land!

"The evil PtB defense? The Danny B defense?" - there is a provision in law that says, essentially, that if the authorities have gone to excessive lengths (disproportionate to the alleged offence) to pursue the alleged criminal then the jury can find the defendant not guilty even if they think he did commit the crime. It is a way of telling the authorities that the jury thinks their money can be better spent (catching real criminals)! So, to some extent, yes, the "evil PtB" defence could be employed.
Because the authorities have pursued Gary so long and arduously the jury may very well be interested in the content of what he found as it is undoubtedly the reason why the authorities want him so badly. If Gary had hacked into a toy store's database of merchandise no-one would ever have heard his name. It could therefore be a factor in his defence.
When the jury hear about what he found, possibly corroborated by Dan Burisch/Marcia McDowell, it may persuade them to find him not guilty as a way of sending a message to the "evil PtB" that they want the UFO/free-energy information released to the public.

"paper trail of repair receipts" - are you serious?? Seriously, are you serious??

"where is the evidence that supports Gary innocence?" - defendants are not required to prove their innocence. What country/legal system are you in??

"Even if he really saw what he says he saw, and he had evidence, this would only be evidence of his guilt." - it would be evidence that he is telling the truth about hacking into the systems and finding some very interesting information about off-planet activity (which is something he has already admitted). It would NOT be evidence of causing precisely $5,000 worth of damage per computer (which is what he is being charged with).

"I still maintain that this info Gary claims to have seen, has never been on open servers." - why do you asert this? Who are you? Were they 'open' servers, if it is necessary to hack into them?


Murnut, are you really unable to figure out on your own that the charges against him are trumped up? $5,000 worth of damage per computer - the minimum necessary to bring charges. Not $6,500 here, $7,000 there; no, $5,000 each. Think about it.

I'll ask you once again (with regard to his extradition hearing): how does one defend themselves when the prosecution is not required to provide any evidence?




First you hire a competent attorney, then at the trial you put on a defense.

But if he was smart, he would plead.

That is what most caught hackers do.



Garys lawyers have exhausted his legal options in fighting the extradition charges.

How many appeals has he had? 3? 4? Is everyone out to get Gary?

Think about that.


You my friend, have been sold on the hype.

But if he is actually foolish enough to go to trial, then his lawyers will put on the best defense he can....which is what exactly?

The evil PtB defense?

The Danny B defense?


In fact Gary has no defense other than to ask for proof of the damage....since he already admitted the hacking.

The anti American statements did not help either.

Guess what, they have the a paper trail of repair receipts.

Then you may say that all of the evidence is faked.

But where is the evidence that supports Gary innocence?

Even if he really saw what he says he saw, and he had evidence, this would only be evidence of his guilt.

I still maintain that this info Gary claims to have seen, has never been on open servers.

[freekatz]

If all this information that Gary accessed is so top secret and hidden for our own "good" , shouldn't the people whose job it was to protect this vitally "dangerous for the public" information be the ones being prosecuted? For their utter incomptence? Surely these people should be the ones on trial...not Gary.:tongue2:

[leeboy]

i agree....since when is a common hacker some kind of ufo hero?

Are ufologists above the law?
do any of you remember or know of robin hood? For those who dont, he basically fought the establishment stole there food and money and dished it out to the poor so they could survive. Isnt what gary did or tried to do a mere modern day version of this. Robin hood is considered a hero of the people. Sometimes we all have to do things that are against the rules to get what we feel in our hearts is right.instead of people judging him and saying he got what he deserved when will the d***heads who are keeping this info to themselves get what they deserve?

[Antaletriangle]

do any of you remember or know of robin hood? For those who dont, he basically fought the establishment stole there food and money and dished it out to the poor so they could survive. Isnt what gary did or tried to do a mere modern day version of this. Robin hood is considered a hero of the people. Sometimes we all have to do things that are against the rules to get what we feel in our hearts is right.instead of people judging him and saying he got what he deserved when will the d***heads who are keeping this info to themselves get what they deserve?

Along these lines?
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=OnkWvh1pvU8

[murnut]

One, I have no opinion on British law...from the house of lords decision I read, it seemed reasonable that Gary was treated fairly.

I have countered your opinions, with facts.

Gary put himself in the situation he faces.

I said that you have been sold on the hype because you quoted it.

Hackers generally plead out or face a longer sentence.

He admitted his guilt.

The ufo defense is laughable in the real world.

No "real" attorney would recommend something so stupid.

Yes the US military has evidence.

Yes, I misspoke, Gary is innocent until proven guilty.

He just has admitted to the hacking but not the damage.

I have not seen the evidence, but I have read about it.

Seems convincing to me

US military secrets are not hooked up to the internet...in my opinion.

In my opinion, Gary saw nothing

The $5000 number per unit means little to me until the evidence is presented, but that is the rumored amount.

I have no opinion on the UK extradition law...the house of lords seems okay with it though.


"Is everyone out to get Gary?" - no, the US military/Shadow Government is out to get him and they are exerting pressure on others so that they can get their hands on him.
Asking the question "Is everyone out to get Gary?" suggests you think my arguments mean there must be a vast conspiracy involving thousands of people, or something. Obviously this is not the case.
You appear to be resorting to the arguemnet that if I believe he is being treated unfairly or even illegally it must be because I think it is being done by a vast network of people and it is unthinkable that a vast network of people could/would be out to get him and so I must be wrong. This is a very poor argument.

You seem to think that he should/deserves to be in this situation.
1) the alleged crimes occurred on British soil and so if any charges are brought it should be under British law in a British court,
2) the Extradition Act 2003 is essentially a treasonous document - selling out the rights of British citizens in favour of a foreign government.
He should not be faced with extradition to and trial in a foreign country, whatsoever.

"You my friend, have been sold on the hype." - I've been sold on the hype?!? You do not (or cannot) give me any counter arguments to the points I have made and so you resort to ridiculous statements like that.

"if he is actually foolish enough to go to trial" - it's foolish to defend oneself, is it?? Wow, that is a very big statement. I wonder what kind of justice would be served if you created the laws of the land!

"The evil PtB defense? The Danny B defense?" - there is a provision in law that says, essentially, that if the authorities have gone to excessive lengths (disproportionate to the alleged offence) to pursue the alleged criminal then the jury can find the defendant not guilty even if they think he did commit the crime. It is a way of telling the authorities that the jury thinks their money can be better spent (catching real criminals)! So, to some extent, yes, the "evil PtB" defence could be employed.
Because the authorities have pursued Gary so long and arduously the jury may very well be interested in the content of what he found as it is undoubtedly the reason why the authorities want him so badly. If Gary had hacked into a toy store's database of merchandise no-one would ever have heard his name. It could therefore be a factor in his defence.
When the jury hear about what he found, possibly corroborated by Dan Burisch/Marcia McDowell, it may persuade them to find him not guilty as a way of sending a message to the "evil PtB" that they want the UFO/free-energy information released to the public.

"paper trail of repair receipts" - are you serious?? Seriously, are you serious??

"where is the evidence that supports Gary innocence?" - defendants are not required to prove their innocence. What country/legal system are you in??

"Even if he really saw what he says he saw, and he had evidence, this would only be evidence of his guilt." - it would be evidence that he is telling the truth about hacking into the systems and finding some very interesting information about off-planet activity (which is something he has already admitted). It would NOT be evidence of causing precisely $5,000 worth of damage per computer (which is what he is being charged with).

"I still maintain that this info Gary claims to have seen, has never been on open servers." - why do you asert this? Who are you? Were they 'open' servers, if it is necessary to hack into them?


Murnut, are you really unable to figure out on your own that the charges against him are trumped up? $5,000 worth of damage per computer - the minimum necessary to bring charges. Not $6,500 here, $7,000 there; no, $5,000 each. Think about it.

I'll ask you once again (with regard to his extradition hearing): how does one defend themselves when the prosecution is not required to provide any evidence?

[murnut]

do any of you remember or know of robin hood? For those who dont, he basically fought the establishment stole there food and money and dished it out to the poor so they could survive. Isnt what gary did or tried to do a mere modern day version of this. Robin hood is considered a hero of the people. Sometimes we all have to do things that are against the rules to get what we feel in our hearts is right.instead of people judging him and saying he got what he deserved when will the d***heads who are keeping this info to themselves get what they deserve?


ah yes...the ufo vigilante approach.

Two wrong make a right.

Good luck with that

If Gary is a hero of the ufo community, than we don't deserve disclosure.

Heroes face the music, Cowards find excuses

[btsumm]

Gary is not alone...

He will have the strength he needs when he needs it...

Bill and Kerry...please pass this message along to Gary with my love...


Much Love,
Brian

[sunflower]

Message from James Gilliland www.eceti.org expressing support and sympathy for Gary McGinnon. (Yahoo Group)


Entire UFO Community Drops the Ball

It seems in our attempt to bring forward disclosure we have forgotten
one young man which history will eventually reveal as one of the
major players in ending the ufo cover-up. Gary McCannon revealed to
us there are entire fleets of ufos, a navy based space fleet which
has been going back and forth to the moon and mars for quite some
time. Sounds outrageous? Do a search on Gary McCannon and you will
see he has been literally erased from the scene as if he never
existed. With all the ufo lawyers and disclosure organizations one
would think this would be drawing a lot of attention in the ufo
community considering the fact that he is being extradited and facing
70 years.

When I was under fire myself experiencing death threats, car sabotage
and false liens placed against me for speaking out about ufos I went
to the ufo community, yes even the UFO lawyers and disclosure people.
All turned a deaf ear most caught up in their personal agendas
forgetting the contactees and whistle blowers. I also found many in
the community are not who they profess to be and this has become
epidemic. Such is the case with Gary McCannon who has been shoved
aside and ignored by the ufo community. Rather than writing letters
for disclosure why not flood Obama with letters on Gary's behalf. Ask
for a full pardon. He is a hero not a felon and his only crime was
exposing a greater crime and that is the deception of the American
People. Officials swore an oath to defend the constitution and the
American people yet they are operating with no oversight, in total
secrecy often using deadly force spending billions to continue the
ufo cover-up. They are also with holding technologies that would
restore the environment and free the people.

Gary is a symptom of a serious problem within the entire ufo
community and that is there is no community. The ufo community known
to the public is riddled with disinformation agents, selfish agendas
and ill intent or motives that are far from service oriented. I
assure you if it was up to the ufo community we will never hear about
Gary again. Lets make some serious noise about this one. Write the
letters asking for a full investigation by public courts not military
and see who are the real criminals. Those that expose the truth or
those who hide it then engage in criminal activity unchecked to
insure the truth stays hidden. Write these letters first and support
those who are working on Gary's behalf. Believe me I know what it is
like to have these experiences with no one to turn too. I also know
the total lack of support for the truth in the UFO community. Be
well, James Gilliland www.eceti.org

[sunflower]

Another message from James Gilliland:

When passing on this information we did not check the spelling of
Gary's last name. Here are the websites concerning a complete injustice
concerning a man who should get a medal verses 70 years in prison.
Those who are continuing the cover-up, sending astronaughts up into
space on primitive firecrackers keeping alternative energy we
desperately need from the people are the real crimminals. Call on the
disclosure groups to get their priorities in order and take care of
their own. In the past the ufo community is riddled with self interest,
competition etc. Maybe this one selfless act might start a pattern of
cooperation. Be well James Gilliland www.eceti.org
PASS THIS ON TO ALL YOU KNOW

http://freegary. org.uk/

http://video. google.com/ videoplay? docid=-425290280 7834262581

[murnut]

Again, the ufo community puts itself before the well being of Gary.

Shameful....imo

[Antaletriangle]

McKinnon turns to internet fame in extradition battle
http://www.mxlogic.com/securitynews/disaster-recovery/mckinnon-turns-to-internet-fame-in-extradition-battle535.cfm
Monday, November 10, 2008

Campaigners for Gary McKinnon, the 44-year-old Scot who is facing a 60-year jail sentence in the US after breaching network security at the Pentagon between 2001 and 2003, are hoping a song released on the internet will help him fight extradition.

According to Scotland on Sunday, McKinnon's melancholic track entitled Only a Fool has stormed mySpace charts and is now competing with the likes of Christina Aguilera, the Pussycat Dolls and Rihanna for the title of most viewed video.

He has always fought his extradition, saying that he will be tried under terrorism laws in the US, but his appeal was overturned British law lords in August of this year.

Supporters of McKinnon - who suffers from a form of autism and has claimed that no ill will was directed at the US government - are now hoping that the widespread media exposure will help to raise awareness of his situation.

Meanwhile, Freegary.org.uk is also calling on supporters to lobby president-elect Barack Obama not to try McKinnon under US anti-terror laws.

[Antaletriangle]

http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquirer/news/2008/11/07/myspace-law-courts-dump
Myspace bans McKinnon as latest deadline looms-why have they done this??!!
Top tune hacked

By Mark Ballard: Friday, 07 November 2008, 12:56 PM


PENTAGON HACKER Gary McKinnon received a double blow yesterday when Myspace took down his music video and the UK's High Court refused his application for a judicial review.

Gary's music video, Only a Fool, had stormed the Myspace video charts, reaching number three the last time we checked, not three days after it was posted.

His application for a judicial review had sought to prevent his extradition on the grounds that it would be cruel to send him, as a sufferer of Asperger's Syndrome, to a US jail. The government should secure him the right to serve time in a British prison if he was found guilty in a US court, said the application.
Janice Sharp, Gary's Mum and lead campaigner, said that Myspace had removed his video because it was being used to promote his campaign.

She said the High Court had given Gary until 5 December to apply for an oral judicial review. The High Court's refusal yesterday had been for a written review. This may be his last recourse.

Myspace was unable to explain what had happened to the video. But The INQUIRER understands that the video was pulled by someone in the US without explanation.

[freekatz]

myspace is run by a bunch of fascist drones, I've seen many "liberal" people have their pages deleted with no warning or explanation, they also used to scramble links that the Kucinich campaign would put out....pathetic really.

I wonder if we did a big email campaign to Obama the new man of "change" would that help Gary? Has he ever managed to get Larry King involved, he does a lot of UFO stuff?

[martian31v]

YES, email the obama transition team ASAP. the link is provided at http://freegary.org.uk/. address email to Mr. Podesta co-head of obama transition team and outspoken proponent of disclosure. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2Sz-MgoFos. his last words were disclosure should take place because "it's the LAW". the u.s government has no right to withhold existential information from the human race. there are NO actual national security risks. therefore, gary was only exercising his right know. everyone has the right to know what our reality consists of. the u.s government is breaking the law. gary was merely responding to that injustice. this is NOT a two wrongs makes a right case. if someone attempts to steal your property, you have a right to defend your property. existential information is the property of the human race, which was stolen by the u.s government. gary and every other sentient being has a right to pursue that information by any non-violent means necessary. YES, there is a sound and valid argument to defend gary's actions. we need to advance that position to the obama transition team. WE WANT OUR EXISTENTIAL PROPERTY BACK NOW!!!!!!!

[Antaletriangle]

I've just sent a letter to Obama concerning mckinnon.
I realise my letter isn't the best in the world ;just wanted to be straight to the point.
Hi there; congratulations on becoming president elect,
i would simply like to voice my concern regarding Gary Mckinnon and his potentially soul destroying experiences with the investigations into his computer hacking into your ministry of defence and NASA.
He is simply asking for a trial in his own country and hasn't once stated any innocence concerning his behaviour.Other countries allow their citizens a fair trial at home as he is willing to take punishment for the crimes in hand.
I personally think it would be a great and postive move on your behalf if you'd consider the U.K. for his trial and punishment (which he is willing to serve)
Thankyou for taking the time to read this small yet strong plea to allow him to be tried at home.
I hope you can find a little compassion in this world that we presently live in..Thanks again.
W.
http://www.projectavalon.net/forum/picture.php?albumid=17&pictureid=4710

[murnut]

McKinnon turns to internet fame in extradition battle


He has always fought his extradition, saying that he will be tried under terrorism laws in the US, but his appeal was overturned British law lords in August of this year.



This is false...he is not being tried under terrorism laws

[LeBossu]

It's interesting that Billy Cox - "The mainstream media's lonely UFO web log" - is pitching in, and mentioning the John Podesta angle...with just a hint of a threat to the UFO secrecy hawks:-

http://www.heraldtribune.com/apps/pbcs.dll/section?CATEGORY=BLOG32

They play these things out in msm...so that's 2 whitehats getting into gear - wonder what the reply will be?

Paul

[Antaletriangle]

Well-i'm glad you stated that; i posted what i read and the link is provided.

[martian31v]

ah yes...the ufo vigilante approach.

Two wrong make a right.

Good luck with that

If Gary is a hero of the ufo community, than we don't deserve disclosure.

Heroes face the music, Cowards find excuses

hi mur. i have read all of your posts on this issue, both at avolon and open minds. i think you are confused. as stated above this is NOT a two wrongs makes a right case. (i.e if you punch me in the face, it is o.k for me to steal your pussy cat.) this is a human rights issue. all humans have an equal right to existential information. gary was exercising that right. Therfore gary's actions were justified.

this case is akin to the days when slavery was legal. if a slave escaped, then under the the law of that time he would be found guilty of escaping. likewise, gary was escaping from the mental/existential slavery being imposed on him by the u.s government. we are the existential slaves. the u.s government is the existential slave owner. gary is the slave who has escaped and been caught. will the slaves unite on gary's behalf??? or will the slaves bend over to the will of their master??? in seeking the truth of OUR reality, gary has done nothing wrong. history will see gary as a hero. wanna bet:sneaky2:


anyone agreeing with this line of reasoning please contact Mr. Podesta (director of Obama transition team) through the link provided and stand up against our collective existential slavery, because we do deserve disclosure. it is our existential right.

http://change.gov/page/s/contact

[murnut]

hi mur. i have read all of your posts on this issue, both at avolon and open minds. i think you are confused. as stated above this is NOT a two wrongs makes a right case. (i.e if you punch me in the face, i steal your pussy cat.) this is a human rights issue. all humans have an equal right to existential information. gary was exercising that right. Therfore gary's actions were justified.

I believe you are mistaken....Govts are not for the rights of the people...they are about control.

There will always be information that is kept from public view, some of it for our own good.

Most will disagree with the above...hell I would have disagreed with it not too long ago.

But just where does one draw the line fighting evil with evil.

Slippery slope where the ends justify the means.

Your theory would seem to imply that it is okay to steal from the rich to give to the poor?

Who defines who is rich.

The UFO community should not sell its soul, become what they despise in the name of disclosure.


this case is akin to the days when slavery was legal. if a slave escaped, then under the the law of that time he would be found guilty of committing a crime. likewise, gary was escaping from the mental/existential slavery being imposed on him by the u.s government. we are the existential slaves. the u.s government is the existential slave owner. gary is the slave who has escaped and been caught. will the slaves unite on gary's behalf??? or will the slaves bend over to the will of their master??? in seeking the truth of OUR reality, gary has done nothing wrong. history will see gary as a hero. wanna bet:sneaky2:



Nice try...I applaud the effort to try to tie this to slavery.

To make your case here, you would have to admit that all forms of govt are wrong, any govt, any rule imposes slavery.

The difference between those that opposed slavery and Gary is that the abolitionist felt so strongly about what they were doing was right, they stood and were counted by serving jail time, and even facing death.

Gary has chickened out for his cause.

Gary has no proof of what he saw....I maintain he saw nothing...the biggest secret in the history of the world was not, has not ever been hooked up to the internet.

Truly if he had actually seen anything, you would have never had heard his name.

He may have been looking for proof I don't doubt.

But since he got caught, he has done nothing but use the ufo community because he does not want to face the music.

And the ufo community is using Gary as well, as way to force disclosure.

As near as I can tell, in my opinion, Gary is a loser for not pleading, and the ufo community is a loser for using a loser to promote it's agenda.

There are real heroes in the ufo community, Gary is self imposed pawn.

He is worthy of pity, and that is about it.


PS I have no problem with him serving his time in Britain, if any.

[martian31v]

I believe you are mistaken....Govts are not for the rights of the people...they are about control.

There will always be information that is kept from public view, some of it for our own good.

Most will disagree with the above...hell I would have disagreed with it not too long ago.

But just where does one draw the line fighting evil with evil.

Slippery slope where the ends justify the means.

Your theory would seem to imply that it is okay to steal from the rich to give to the poor?

Who defines who is rich.

The UFO community should not sell its soul, become what they despise in the name of disclosure.



Nice try...I applaud the effort to try to tie this to slavery.

To make your case here, you would have to admit that all forms of govt are wrong, any govt, any rule imposes slavery.

The difference between those that opposed slavery and Gary is that the abolitionist felt so strongly about what they were doing was right, they stood and were counted by serving jail time, and even facing death.

Gary has chickened out for his cause.

Gary has no proof of what he saw....I maintain he saw nothing...the biggest secret in the history of the world was not, has not ever been hooked up to the internet.

Truly if he had actually seen anything, you would have never had heard his name.

He may have been looking for proof I don't doubt.

But since he got caught, he has done nothing but use the ufo community because he does not want to face the music.

And the ufo community is using Gary as well, as way to force disclosure.

As near as I can tell, in my opinion, Gary is a loser for not pleading, and the ufo community is a loser for using a loser to promote it's agenda.

There are real heroes in the ufo community, Gary is self imposed pawn.

He is worthy of pity, and that is about it.


PS I have no problem with him serving his time in Britain, if any.

YOUR WHOLE ARGUMENT IS>
wrong... governments are supposed to represent the rights of the people. when they don't (like withhold existential information) we have the right to oppose their oppression. exactly what gary did, therefor his actions are justified.

wrong.... there will not ALWAYS be information withheld from the public. transparency is the way of the future because transparency of information ensures equality. if you need me to elaborate on this point i can.

wrong... not a slippery slope argument. very straight forward. when an injustice is perpetrated by our government, we have a right to combat that injustice by any non-violent means necessary.

wrong... my argument does NOT imply justification for stealing from rich to give to poor. my argument dictates the right to take back what has been stolen from us.

wrong... the ufo community is not selling its soul. it is standing up for what is right. i will state the argument AGAIN. all humans have a right to equal access of existential information. in searching for that information, gary or any other sentient being is justified in their non-violent search.

wrong... in making my case i do not have to prove that all forms of govt are wrong. it is only necessary to show that their particular action of withholding existential information is wrong. therefor justifying gary's search for said infromation.

wrong... the only difference between gary and the abolitionist is that one was a physical slave, and the other a mental/existential slave. both have risked harm to self for sake of greater good.

who cares... there is no point in what gary saw. the point is his motivation for action. what he did or did not see is totally irrelevant.

subjective... the rest of your argument is subjective drivel. the usual route taken by those who fail at responding to an objective argument.

i can continue to squash your arguments, or we can watch the rest of the world series of poker final table.

Gary's actions were just. Express this fact to Mr. Podesta. http://change.gov/page/s/contact

[murnut]

wrong... governments are supposed to represent the rights of the people. when they don't (like withhold existential information) we have the right to oppose their oppression. exactly what gary did, therefor his actions are justified.

wrong.... there will not ALWAYS be information withheld from the public. transparency is the way of the future because transparency of information ensures equality. if you need me to elaborate on this point i can.

wrong... not a slippery slope argument. very straight forward. when an injustice is perpetrated by our government, we have a right to combat that injustice by any non-violent means necessary.

wrong... my argument does NOT imply justification for stealing from rich to give to poor. my argument dictates the right to take back what has been stolen from us.

wrong... the ufo community is not selling its soul. it is standing up for what is right. i will state the argument AGAIN. all humans have a right to equal access of existential information. in searching for that information, gary or any other sentient being is justified in their non-violent search.

wrong... in making my case i do not have to prove that all forms of govt are wrong. it is only necessary to show that their particular action of withholding existential information is wrong. therefor justifying gary's search for said infromation.

wrong... the only difference between gary and the abolitionist is that one was a physical slave, and the other a mental/existential slave. both have risked harm to self for sake of greater good.

who cares... there is no point in what gary saw. the point is his motivation for action. what he did or did not see is totally irrelevant.

subjective... the rest of your argument is subjective drivel. the usual route taken by those who fail at responding to an objective argument.




Far be it for me to rain on your fairy tale view of the world.

Supposed to be and the way things actually are vastly different.

Transparency only works in a perfect world and this certainly is not.

There is no equality, only equality of assimilation.

Govt's have every right to withhold information, if it is in the the Govt interest of maintaining control.

Govt's steal from us every day...it is laughable to think the ufo community has the right to ask for anything.

There a bigger injustices than the denial of the ufo reality.

And it just might be that the govt really does not know much more about what is going on than me or you.

How about a little proof with your claims?

Whistle blower testimony you say?

They contradict each other.


So with no proof of any govt complicity with regards to the ufo "phenomena"

Who is spouting drivel?

Me or you?

Gary is a misguided hacker who got caught, who will do or say anything to get off.

There are more lies coming from Gary and his team, than me.

[freekatz]

Murnut, surely you are not trying to imply that computer hacking is "evil"?

You couldn't possibly be putting it on the same level as torture or genocide or any other number of "evil" acts.

Forgive my stupidity if I have misunderstood you....


I believe you are mistaken....Govts are not for the rights of the people...they are about control.

"But just where does one draw the line fighting evil with evil.

Slippery slope where the ends justify the means."......

[martian31v]

Far be it for me to rain on your fairy tale view of the world.

Supposed to be and the way things actually are vastly different.

Transparency only works in a perfect world and this certainly is not.

There is no equality, only equality of assimilation.

Govt's have every right to withhold information, if it is in the the Govt interest of maintaining control.

Govt's steal from us every day...it is laughable to think the ufo community has the right to ask for anything.

There a bigger injustices than the denial of the ufo reality.

And it just might be that the govt really does not know much more about what is going on than me or you.

How about a little proof with your claims?

Whistle blower testimony you say?

They contradict each other.


So with no proof of any govt complicity with regards to the ufo "phenomena"

Who is spouting drivel?

Me or you?

Gary is a misguided hacker who got caught, who will do or say anything to get off.

There are more lies coming from Gary and his team, than me.


WOW, DID I STRIKE A NERVE?

"Supposed to be and the way things actually are vastly different."
MY POINT EXACTLY... INFORMATION IS SUPPOSED TO BE FREE FOR ALL, BUT IT"S NOT. THEREFOR, GARY'S ACTIONS ARE JUST.

"Transparency only works in a perfect world and this certainly is not."
STATING TRANSPARENCY ONLY WORKS IN A PERFECT WORLD ONLY SERVES TO PROVE ITS SUPERIORITY OVER THE LACK THEREOF.

"There is no equality, only equality of assimilation."
RU SERIOUS. BESIDES NOT RELATING AT ALL TO THE GM CASE, EQUALITY JUST IS. IF WE ARE ALL 1 (or equal parts to the whole), THEN WE JUST IS.

"Govt's have every right to withhold information, if it is in the the Govt interest of maintaining control."
GOVERNMENTS HAVE NO RIGHT TO WITHHOLD EXISTENTIAL INFORMATION. IF WE ARE ALL EQUAL PARTS OF A WHOLE, THEN WE AS INDIVIDUALS HAVE AN EQUAL RIGHT TO THE INFORMATION RELATIVE TO THAT WHOLE. WE ARE NOT THE GOVERNMENTS PROPERTY OR SLAVE. WE ARE NOT OBJECTS TO BE CONTROLLED. WE ARE TO EQUALLY CO-EXIST.

"Govt's steal from us every day...it is laughable to think the ufo community has the right to ask for anything."
DUDE YOU NEED TO TAKE LOGIC 101. YES, GOVERNMENTS STEAL FROM US EVERYDAY. THEY STEAL OUR EXISTENTIAL INFORMATION AND WE WANT IT BACK... IT'S ACUALY NATURAL THAT THE UFO COMMUNITY ASK FOR AND DEMAND FOR THAT WHICH IS RIGHTFULLY THEIRS. (you sound a little disgruntled with the ufo community. but thats just my opinion.)

THE REST IS MORE IRRATIONAL DRIVEL THAT MAINTAINS NO RELATION WHATSOEVER TO THE UNJUST ARREST OF GARRY McKINNON. CLASSIC SOPHISTRY. ARE YOU A LAWYER, FED, OR SOMEONE WHO JUST CANT ADMITT WHEN HE/SHE IS WRONG.

ACTUALLY READ WHAT MURNUT WRITES AFTER HIS LAST QUOTE. IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH AN EXISTENTAIL ARGUMENT RELEVANT TO THE JUSTIFICATION OF GARY'S ACTIONS. (here is the rest of his confusion.)


"here a bigger injustices than the denial of the ufo reality.

And it just might be that the govt really does not know much more about what is going on than me or you.

How about a little proof with your claims?

Whistle blower testimony you say?

They contradict each other.


So with no proof of any govt complicity with regards to the ufo "phenomena"

Who is spouting drivel?

Me or you?

Gary is a misguided hacker who got caught, who will do or say anything to get off.

There are more lies coming from Gary and his team, than me."[/QUOTE]


ARE YOU KIDDING. NO PROOF TO U.S COMPLICITY IN WITHHOLDING INFORMATION REGARDING UFO"S??? ARE YOU REALLY GOING STATE THAT??HOW MANY DOCUMENTS DO YOU WANT??? REVERTING BACK TO THAT POSITION, IS TANTAMOUNT TO A COLLEGE GRADUATE GOING BACK TO 1ST GRADE.

GARY IS A SLAVE WHO GOT CAUGHT TRYING TO FLEE HIS SELF-APPOINTED MASTER. WE ARE FELLOW SLAVES WHO SHOULD STAND IN SUPPORT FOR GARY>

WHOEVER YOU ARE. YOU ARE WELL DIS-INFORMED. AND YOUR LAST STATEMENT IMPLYS THAT YOUR LYING.


gary's actions were just. contact Mr Podesta at http://change.gov/page/s/contact

[Antaletriangle]

Everyone has their own opinions on such matters;mine being i think it's a harsh treatment -he's probably already served a life sentence through worry and anxiety.O.K. he's 'done wrong'-i feel this is blown way out of proportion-and where's human compasssion?-This lad's beng tortured for essentially being found out and telling the truth;people talk about setting examples to the younger sector of the populace?-well, i feel the govts. on both sides of 'the pond' aren't setting any precedents for civilised behaviour.Where have the qualities formally known as compassion and understanding vanished to?
With this in mind i find it astonishing that we can call the west a democracy and a civilised community when the very act of running it is based on fear.
He owned up to his activities from the outset and he wishes to serve a sentence for it-now, i think that alone should command at least a little justice in terms of where his trial should be held-it's not asking for the crown jewels!
As far as Jacqui Smith stands, i find her actions highly distasteful as a 'labour' minister and a citizen of the U.K.
She hasn't a clue on the morals of socialism.
Apologies for any negative vibe from this post but everyone has their opinion and i'm with a fair trial in his own country.
it appears that the 'fear factory' is still in full production from how it currently stands.:thumbdown:

[murnut]

Murnut, surely you are not trying to imply that computer hacking is "evil"?

You couldn't possibly be putting it on the same level as torture or genocide or any other number of "evil" acts.

Forgive my stupidity if I have misunderstood you....


My fault for not being clear.

The ends do not justify the means.

We lose our moral authority when we rationalize what we do, in response to what we perceive has been done to us.

Hacking may or may not be "evil"...but from what I have read from some of Gary's supporters, escalation of crimes in the name of disclosure, is something that is being considered as "justified"

Do you understand my concern?

[TheGhost]

Good luck, everybody, arguing with Murnut! lol

This guy clearly just doesn't get it. He equates computer hacking with evil, for crying out loud! And he probably thinks we should take his arguments seriously.

Murnut, you really shouldn't confuse right and wrong with legal and illegal, and you shouldn't confuse legal and illegal with lawful and unlawful.

The ends DO justify the means to a certain extent. Every civil right we have was once illegal. Trade unions, civil rights organisation, etc, etc, FOUGHT (physically usually) with police and the authorities to obtain the freedom and rights we enjoy today.

Governments are not benevolent (even the democratic [sic] ones). They do not bestow rights upon their people. Their raison d'être is control and they are constantly trying to tighten the noose around our necks - and are succeeding.

Murnut, you appear to be equating anyone who stands up to the PTB as evil; any action taken against them is evil. Those who stand up to them are as bad as they are. Are you serious, dude??

How many wars has Gary McKinnon started?
How many innocent civilians has he killed through sanctions?
How many people has Gary used as human guinea pigs for experimentation?
How many people (children in particular) have been kidnapped, tortured, raped and ritually sacrificed by Gary?


You imply that he or anyone who stands up to the PTB is evil. What is your definition of evil, please??

NOTHING that ANY of US could EVER do will EVER come close to even being compared in the same sentence to the EVIL that has been and is being committed by the PTB.

Murnut, I think you need a period of serious re-evaluation of your point of view.

[murnut]

WOW, DID I STRIKE A NERVE?

"Supposed to be and the way things actually are vastly different."
MY POINT EXACTLY... INFORMATION IS SUPPOSED TO BE FREE FOR ALL, BUT IT"S NOT. THEREFOR, GARY'S ACTIONS ARE JUST.

Where in the law does it say all information is owed to the public?





"Transparency only works in a perfect world and this certainly is not."
STATING TRANSPARENCY ONLY WORKS IN A PERFECT WORLD ONLY SERVES TO PROVE ITS SUPERIORITY OVER THE LACK THEREOF.

"There is no equality, only equality of assimilation."
RU SERIOUS. BESIDES NOT RELATING AT ALL TO THE GM CASE, EQUALITY JUST IS. IF WE ARE ALL 1 (or equal parts to the whole), THEN WE JUST IS.


I am missing your point here



"Govt's have every right to withhold information, if it is in the the Govt interest of maintaining control."
GOVERNMENTS HAVE NO RIGHT TO WITHHOLD EXISTENTIAL INFORMATION. IF WE ARE ALL EQUAL PARTS OF A WHOLE, THEN WE AS INDIVIDUALS HAVE AN EQUAL RIGHT TO THE INFORMATION RELATIVE TO THAT WHOLE. WE ARE NOT THE GOVERNMENTS PROPERTY OR SLAVE. WE ARE NOT OBJECTS TO BE CONTROLLED. WE ARE TO EQUALLY CO-EXIST.

In a perfect world ..yes...this world.... no.

The people have no right to information.

Show me where it says we do please?



"Govt's steal from us every day...it is laughable to think the ufo community has the right to ask for anything."
DUDE YOU NEED TO TAKE LOGIC 101. YES, GOVERNMENTS STEAL FROM US EVERYDAY. THEY STEAL OUR EXISTENTIAL INFORMATION AND WE WANT IT BACK... IT'S ACUALY NATURAL THAT THE UFO COMMUNITY ASK FOR AND DEMAND FOR THAT WHICH IS RIGHTFULLY THEIRS. (you sound a little disgruntled with the ufo community. but thats just my opinion.)

I am extremely disappointed with the ufo community.

Again, there is no right to know National security issues.

You are entitled to disagree.


THE REST IS MORE IRRATIONAL DRIVEL THAT MAINTAINS NO RELATION WHATSOEVER TO THE UNJUST ARREST OF GARRY McKINNON. CLASSIC SOPHISTRY. ARE YOU A LAWYER, FED, OR SOMEONE WHO JUST CANT ADMITT WHEN HE/SHE IS WRONG.

ACTUALLY READ WHAT MURNUT WRITES AFTER HIS LAST QUOTE. IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH AN EXISTENTAIL ARGUMENT RELEVANT TO THE JUSTIFICATION OF GARY'S ACTIONS. (here is the rest of his confusion.)


"here a bigger injustices than the denial of the ufo reality.

And it just might be that the govt really does not know much more about what is going on than me or you.

How about a little proof with your claims?

Whistle blower testimony you say?

They contradict each other.


So with no proof of any govt complicity with regards to the ufo "phenomena"

Who is spouting drivel?

Me or you?

Gary is a misguided hacker who got caught, who will do or say anything to get off.

There are more lies coming from Gary and his team, than me."


ARE YOU KIDDING. NO PROOF TO U.S COMPLICITY IN WITHHOLDING INFORMATION REGARDING UFO"S??? ARE YOU REALLY GOING STATE THAT??HOW MANY DOCUMENTS DO YOU WANT??? REVERTING BACK TO THAT POSITION, IS TANTAMOUNT TO A COLLEGE GRADUATE GOING BACK TO 1ST GRADE.

GARY IS A SLAVE WHO GOT CAUGHT TRYING TO FLEE HIS SELF-APPOINTED MASTER. WE ARE FELLOW SLAVES WHO SHOULD STAND IN SUPPORT FOR GARY>

WHOEVER YOU ARE. YOU ARE WELL DIS-INFORMED. AND YOUR LAST STATEMENT IMPLYS THAT YOUR LYING.



You are part of the reason why the ufo community is not taken seriously.

You and your kind are damaging serious efforts for disclosure.

Most of the ufo cover up whistle blower testimonies are pure disinfo.

They contradict each other for God's sake.

Yes, the phenomena is real.

Yes, there is a cover up.

Beyond that, there is no proof to what is actually being covered up.

But going back to GM....he and his supporters has misrepresented that facts of his case.

That's lying.

So if he lies about this, what else is he lying about?

[murnut]

Good luck, everybody, arguing with Murnut! lol

This guy clearly just doesn't get it. He equates computer hacking with evil, for crying out loud! And he probably thinks we should take his arguments seriously.

Murnut, you really shouldn't confuse right and wrong with legal and illegal, and you shouldn't confuse legal and illegal with lawful and unlawful.

The ends DO justify the means to a certain extent. Every civil right we have was once illegal. Trade unions, civil rights organisation, etc, etc, FOUGHT (physically usually) with police and the authorities to obtain the freedom and rights we enjoy today.

Governments are not benevolent (even the democratic [sic] ones). They do not bestow rights upon their people. Their raison d'être is control and they are constantly trying to tighten the noose around our necks - and are succeeding.

Murnut, you appear to be equating anyone who stands up to the PTB as evil; any action taken against them is evil. Those who stand up to them are as bad as they are. Are you serious, dude??

How many wars has Gary McKinnon started?
How many innocent civilians has he killed through sanctions?
How many people has Gary used as human guinea pigs for experimentation?How many people (children in particular) have been kidnapped, tortured, raped and ritually sacrificed by Gary?


You imply that he or anyone who stands up to the PTB is evil. What is your definition of evil, please??

NOTHING that ANY of US could EVER do will EVER come close to even being compared in the same sentence to the EVIL that has been and is being committed by the PTB.

Murnut, I think you need a period of serious re-evaluation of your point of view.

I don't claim that to stand up is wrong...but is that really the message Gary is sending?

He stood up to the point that he decided he did not like the outcome of his actions.

To call him a hero is a disgrace to all the serious researchers.

Anointing Gary as a hero has set back the credibility of serious researchers by years.

================================================== ========


How many here pay their taxes?

Nobody likes to pay them, one might say that we fund the PtB.

So should we just stop paying are taxes because it is "justified"

Or should we work within the law to reduce the burden on us?

Which way is more credible do you think?