Clear Your Debts 70% of Credit Agreements Are Unenforcable Therefore NON repayable.

[alternative-answer]

A work colleague came in with a big beaming smile to tell us how he had just discovered that his credit agreement was unenforcable and as such he is no longer required to make any more repayments on it. After some digging around it appears that this is true, watch the BBC news clip and listen to Radio 4 discussion on this site and decide for yourselves.
www.nomoredebts.me.uk

[Mike_Jetson]

I have not mentioned this before as I thought it could be deemed spam or advertising but my private club with members (a club i am a member of) teaches people how to take care of this themselves without involving claims companies like this one.

www.libertywealthclub.com

A very small part of what we teach is credit illimination and anyone can do it, you just have to understand how and where we are being lied to and use correct terminology when challenging the banksters.

Study the pages of the club site and listen to the recorded conference calls, any questions dont hesitate to ask me

[Jenny]

Getting out of debt is imperative to be free.

imho.

[alternative-answer]

We are conditioned to believe that there is no escape from debt, we are told that the only escape is to borrow more money and we accept this without question. Banks have been cheating us and now the time has come to claim back what is rightly yours. Power to the people....

[borrasca2012]

.....how does this sound for people who never took depts or

was working hard for it to come out..........

or don"t drive car

was not able to go on holiday the last 10 years

don"t by new clothes

.....and so on..............


.....................some people just don"t wanna learn:nono:

[pineal-pilot-in merkabah]

hmmm. june 2007 i signed onto job seekers allowance.. then i want to the local court. i filed for bankruptcy. it cost £360.. i stayed on JSA for one year.. after that the court sent me a letter saying i am now no longer liable for the debt.. i had the help of a few good friends to keep me alive duting this time.. a converted garden shed at the bottom of someones garden did the job.. now totally off the grid.. about to get back on it in some small way... eceonomic collapse will further help me. as long as we dont get repossesed en masse in britian.. me and a friend will jsut squat in his house..

[pineal-pilot-in merkabah]

.....how does this sound for people who never took depts or

was working hard for it to come out..........

or don"t drive car

was not able to go on holiday the last 10 years

don"t by new clothes

.....and so on..............


.....................some people just don"t wanna learn:nono:they woulda collapsed it in another way if we didnt do it.. :zip:

[pineal-pilot-in merkabah]

off the cliff of hopes tomorow trapped in worlds of debt and sorrow

[Knightbk]

Getting out of debt is imperative to be free.

imho.

I agree. The only problem with that is that many people own Mortgages that will take 10,20 or 30 years to get out of them and today really isn't the day to sell those homes.



Look, if the SHTF like many people here think it will, it wont matter if you have debt, nobody is going to come after you for it and plus, the Government would end up socializing all of that.

[alternative-answer]

Banks falling under state control is healthy either, we know who controls the state, ppwer and money in the hands of the few means more control.

[Humble Janitor]

Good thing I got the help I needed in repaying BoA over a year ago. I had a credit card that I could not pay off as I was making less money at the time. They threatened to haul me to court and make me pay $10,000. Settled for half that.

Besides student loans and medical bills, owe money on a computer but it is possible to call and negotiate it down to something that's easier to pay.

[Elephant Man]

I have not mentioned this before as I thought it could be deemed spam or advertising but my private club with members (a club i am a member of) teaches people how to take care of this themselves without involving claims companies like this one.

www.libertywealthclub.com

A very small part of what we teach is credit illimination and anyone can do it, you just have to understand how and where we are being lied to and use correct terminology when challenging the banksters.

Study the pages of the club site and listen to the recorded conference calls, any questions dont hesitate to ask me


This lloks like a very expensive way to become "free"

[alternative-answer]

I have decided to that this is the best option to clear my credit card, they have told me I will be able to stop paying in a couple of weeks as I will be in dispute with the bank.

[Baggywrinkle]

>Clear Your Debts 70% of Credit Agreements Are >Unenforcable Therefore NON repayable

Scuse me,

YOU borrowed the money. No one held a gun to your head. You took the bait hook line and sinker. Suck it up or give it back!

This attitude is why the financial world is collapsing today. Greed, graft, and corruption. Oil arms and drugs.

What is being proposed here is called theft. The corruption which rots our institutions originated in our own hearts. They are but a reflection of ourselves.

Not so long ago, a man's word was his bond and his handshake was good as gold.

It isn't the high cost of living. It is the cost of living high

Where is Roy Rogers when you need him? Release your inner Roy or Dale. Hold your head up and do
what's right. Make Trigger proud.

Talk the talk, walk the walk.

[Orion11]

:mfr_lol: at baggy wrinkle.

suck it up or give it back! hahaha, riiiight,
your obviously clueless arent you.
tsk tsk

edit: ok, I now see why it is that your unaware of how all of this works.
Your way of life is beautiful,
but clearly you are not as "involved" with all of this , as most of us are.

You are not right in the middle of the banks and the government pushing you and pulling you every which way, like they do to most who do not live the way you do.

Much respect on the simplicity you have all created, indeed it is beautiful.

but you really are not stuck into what most ppl are stuck into.
and no, it is not their fault for being in debt. Some ppl yes, but even then, you have to look at the WHOLE picture.

Blessings

[alternative-answer]

If you sign an agreement with a bank and they have not been complying with the law when enforcing that agreement then surely someone has the right to challenge them. The consumer credit act 1974 is an act of parliament is statute law, banks have not written their agreements correctly and have actually been albeit unwittingly cheating the consumer. Someone who lives on the other side of the world clearly is uninformed about UK law and the rights of consumers to be able to challenge bad practise. If you broke your agreement with a bank they would be knocking on your door yesterday wanting to seize back your assets to repay them. Finally the consumer has a chance to put the banks to task.

[Orion11]

If you sign an agreement with a bank and they have not been complying with the law when enforcing that agreement then surely someone has the right to challenge them. The consumer credit act 1974 is an act of parliament is statute law, banks have not written their agreements correctly and have actually been albeit unwittingly cheating the consumer. Someone who lives on the other side of the world clearly is uninformed about UK law and the rights of consumers to be able to challenge bad practise. If you broke your agreement with a bank they would be knocking on your door yesterday wanting to seize back your assets to repay them. Finally the consumer has a chance to put the banks to task.

Indeed. well said.

[alternative-answer]

Thanks Orion 11, it worries me when people are so quick to judge without being privvy to all the facts and information. People should be applauded for having the courage to take on big institutions, the very same institutions who would trample you into the ground to serve their needs

[Orion11]

and thank you alternative-answer, I agree.....

its time that the Elephants (We) stop being afraid of the mice (them),
and all run full force to trample them down, and its easier now than ever, they are doing a majority of the trampling themselves into the ground, all we need to do is stop being afraid, and help them with the final 'push' or 'stomp'.

A stampede of the People , if you will. lol

Bless you, my friend, thanks for standing.
Andy

[Baggywrinkle]

If you sign an agreement with a bank and they have not been complying with the law when enforcing that agreement then surely someone has the right to challenge them.

Agreed.

You can challenge your mortgage holder to produce the original note in court proving that you owe them anything.

With mortgages being sold as they are the original paperwork is often misplaced. No original note, mortgage dismissed.

But the fact remains that you did indeed borrow the money and you have a moral obligation to pay that money back whether or not you have the legal obligation.

There is precedent for this in America. In 1969 Jerome Daly stopped paying his mortgage. When faced with forclosure he argued;

that the bank had not provided any consideration for Daly's promise to pay back the loan. Consideration is one of the requirements for a valid contract, and without it, a contract is void. Daly was arguing that the mortgage contract was void and did not need to be repaid because the bank had not actually given him any money. The lender had created the money out of thin air in response to the promise to repay the loan.

This credit, argued Daly, was not real money that counted as consideration and therefore did not need to be paid back. Without valid consideration, the mortgage contract was null and void and nothing was owed to the bank. Astoundingly enough, the jury agreed with him and declared that the mortgage was not a valid contract.

See credit river decision for more detail.

Yet Mr Daly had the home!

This is a moral ethical issue. Something tangible with
nothing in return. Mitigating circumstance such as losing
your job aside. If you skate, you are wrong. This is not
to argue that widows and orphans should be turned out
into the streets. Perhaps some other arrangement could
be made in an enlightened society other than foreclosure. It might involve giving up your granite counter tops and trading down to another bank owned property.

Enjoy your wide screen television and beamer that aren't paid for.

If you are in debt, get out of debt.
If you are not in debt never get into debt.
Then you are beholden to no man.

Use it up
wear it out
make it do
or do without.

This ethic is about to be imposed on the masses. Your
great grandparents would be quite familiar with it.
Soon you will be too. Remember that meat rationing didn't end in
the UK until 1954

If that makes me clueless, so be it. Go enjoy your Ipod and don't forget
to run by the deli to pick up something for dinner.

[alternative-answer]

This is not a matter of morals, we are conditioned to believe and feel morally obliged and society polices itself. Personaly I don't feel any sense of moral obligation at all, the law is the law, if you do not follow the law s we all know we would have to account for ouselves, it is no different for large companies, organisations, they also must be called to account. I don't care for ipods and delis, I do however have a sense of what is right, fair and just.

[Baggywrinkle]

I do however have a sense of what is right, fair and just.

Then we have a commonality we can work from.


What is right just and fair. That sword cuts both ways.
If someone cannot believe you would repay your obligation why would they loan to you in the first place?
That is what the world wide credit crunch is all about. It starts in the hearts of men. Men set policy for institutions.

Quid pro quo.

That is my point.



Neither a borrower nor a lender be;
For loan oft loses both itself and friend,
And borrowing dulls the edge of husbandry.
This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.

[Orion11]

This is not a matter of morals, we are conditioned to believe and feel morally obliged and society polices itself. Personaly I don't feel any sense of moral obligation at all, the law is the law, if you do not follow the law s we all know we would have to account for ouselves, it is no different for large companies, organisations, they also must be called to account. I don't care for ipods and delis, I do however have a sense of what is right, fair and just.

:wub2:

:wub2: at baggy wrinkle to,
i think your still missing the point a little, but its all good.

<3 <3 <3

[Orion11]

ps... to whoever left me the -rep comment,(understandable)
but if i knew your nym i propably would contact you, but I dont know who the rep was left by, so I cannot contact the one who said "contact me i can help", thank you, Bless

[Humble Janitor]

Baggywrinkle has a good point but I wonder how he/she feels about student loans? If someone wants to pursue a higher education and they are poor, is that also considered stretching beyond your means?

[Shellie]

I agree with Baggywrinkle that this was all a choice. You CHOOSE. It's not even a matter of "simple lifestyle". It's a matter of following principles.

Look at the Islamic community in the US. They don't pay interest. They don't deal in usury. After one generation in this country, know what? Because dad didn't have to pay interest on the mortgage, he can pay cash for most of the the kids' college. The kids stay home until they are married and can afford to move out- which means their salaries get spent on essentially NOTHING. I have known many 25-30 year-olds who have written a check for the entire cost of their own home. Just think; 30 years old and no student debt, no car payments, no mortgage. They don't have credit cards either.

[Baggywrinkle]

Baggywrinkle has a good point but I wonder how he/she feels about student loans? If someone wants to pursue a higher education and they are poor, is that also considered stretching beyond your means?

Quid pro quo.

If you borrow it, you pay it back. Period.

Even if you thrash them in court for breaking the contract
the HONORABLE thing to do is make good on your end of
the agreement because it is the right thing to do.

I could not have graduated without student loans. It took me ten years to pay it back. We took food off the table to do it.

But then, I'm just a rambling scumbag for feeling that way.

Blessings all

[Mike_Jetson]

This lloks like a very expensive way to become "free"

You're joking right?

The type of knowledge we share and the information which has been taught in the past had prices many times over and above any initial cost for members right now.

But I guess its not always easy to spot a good deal froma bad one when theres so much trash out there. Keep looking, I hope you find what youre looking for, I know I have

[ADAM KADMON]

Agreed.

You can challenge your mortgage holder to produce the original note in court proving that you owe them anything.

With mortgages being sold as they are the original paperwork is often misplaced. No original note, mortgage dismissed.

But the fact remains that you did indeed borrow the money and you have a moral obligation to pay that money back whether or not you have the legal obligation.



If someone made the mistake of borrowing money before they were educated as to "how the system works" then it is the person's decision how s/he is to handle paying back the bad debt.

You see, all money is debt. It never existed. And once you understand that the money you borrowed was lent to you on a fractional-monetary system which is designed to create perpetual, thus never-repayable dept, then you can see it will not end.

The banks, should have never lent you money to begin with, because that money never existed. It is not backed by anything of value. So why would you work, trading your time for dollars which is of real value, to pay back and illegal loan that given to you without any real value backing it?

A change in consciousness leads to a change is what is ethically right/wrong. For once you wake up to the fact you are a rat in a maze, just because you entered the maze, does not mean you are ethically responsible for finishing it. You are free to jump the wall and run out of the maze at any time. It is the fear based "you borrowed it, you have to pay it back" based mentality which traps people their entire lives.

No one should have to pay to live in the world in which they were born. Or be forced into a slave labor lifestyle just to pay for their basic needs. That is absolute control of the population by the few who designed the system, and maintain it with fear based consciousness and psy-op ploys.

If you yield the consciousness and strength required to "unplug" then do so.

Money being the root of all evil, it's a psycological control mechanism, and it will have power over you as long as it has power over you.

Think about it,
Adam K.

[pineal-pilot-in merkabah]

If you owe the bank $100 that's your problem. If you owe the bank $100 million, that's the bank's problem.
J. Paul Getty i was part of the latter grouping

[alternative-answer]

Money is not the root of all evil, the LOVE of money is the root of all evil .

[alternative-answer]

'The New York Times recently reported on page one that credit cards may be the next to go in the financial crisis. Danny Schechter published this similar warning last June in City Beat, a weekly newspaper in Los Angeles.'

http://www.mediachannel.org/wordpress/2008/10/29/house-of-cards/

[mmerlinn]

Why worry about it? - Let the government do it for you.

http://news.moneycentral.msn.com/provider/providerarticle.aspx?feed=AP&date=20081029&id=9333928

[alternative-answer]

I don't worry about it, it's all relative, it's just part of the experience the ride we call life.

[TAXMASTER]

here is how i see it. laws will come and laws will go, doesn't make them morally or ethically right. we reap what we sow. if we knowingly receive an item or service of value and elect to pay for it later then we have an obligation to keep that contract regardless of the law. it is called integrity. even if the banks illegally harass you when you are late, it is because you did not keep up your end of the deal.

the same justification can be used for a poor man if he wants something from a rich man so he decides to take it. it is called stealing. yet if the poor man agrees to pay in the future for an item he gets from the rich man, and he later decides that the rich man already has more money than he needs, so the poor man decides not to pay him, is this not stealing too? you received the item by deception in both instances.

i think we are all on the "rung on the ladder of life" due to our decisions. it is called free agency and we decide how prosporous we are going to be. if we cheat a man out of $50 then next week our car breaks down and it costs us $60, it is karma coming back to us. picture it as casting a stone out in the middle of a big puddle. the ripples go to the edge of the water and then the land casts the ripple back to the center where the rock landed. whatever we dish out comes back to us. jesus taught us to turn the other cheek.

if the bad banker is doing wrong, don't borrow money from him. if you do borrow, then pay it back thankfully. give your money mental energy and pay your debts with gratitude. you will find that as your ripple out changes, so will the ripple coming in.

Namaste'

[alternative-answer]

While I appreciate peoples comments, it is clearly people own conditioning that makes them keep suggesting they there is some moral and ethical obligation. They are projecting thier own conditioning out onto others. People have the right to self determine and no one should be moralising or judging. if you were truly free you would be doing the same.

[Baggywrinkle]

While I appreciate peoples comments, it is clearly people own conditioning that makes them keep suggesting they there is some moral and ethical obligation. They are projecting thier own conditioning out onto others. People have the right to self determine and no one should be moralising or judging. if you were truly free you would be doing the same.

Then we can agree to disagree. You do have the right to be wrong.
:roll1:

[Average Joe]

I do not agree with trying to cheat your way out of debt..

You borrow money, you know the terms of repayment, you pay it back.

Obviously people can get into difficulties due to changes in income etc, and have to sometimes go bankrupt, or renegotiate their debt, and that is the risk the lenders take.

But I find the idea of for arguments sake, trying to get a £10,000 car loan written off because somebody didn't dot an i or cross a t, absolutely morally repulsive. YOU KNOW you borrowed that money and are trying to cheat your way out of it.

The main reason we have the credit crisis, is a) banks lending to much money, and b) people not paying back because they can't afford it or are trying to dodge out of it.

Some will say "serves the banks right" and maybe so, but doing this makes you no better than them.

I thought the people on this forum would have morals and standards and and understanding of what is right and what is wrong considering all the love, light and peace flying around.

I completely agree with baggywrinkle.

[Mike_Jetson]

Soooooooo many people completely missing the point and its not your fault, you just dont understand the intricate law breaking the banks do to create the debt.

If you understood how the banks use your agreement to create money and then use this money to pay retailers before you have even got home then you may understand.

Obviously you know yourself you have borrowed money that should be paid back but what you dont know is that in effect, the bank has created an account in your name using your signed agreement and a nice slight of hand trick. This account is then used to pay for your purchases. Then they send you a bill. They use YOU to create money that belongs to YOU and then BILL YOU after youve spent it, thus technically paying for it twice. Once to the retailer and once to the bank, plus the interest if you dont pay it off short term. They even sell certain papers that were used to create this debt at near full value so they dont give a toss if you default. Why do you think they SELL your debt to third parties? Because they make even more money. If they were being ethical this information would be disclosed on your credit agreement but then you wouldnt sign it. Also they would state on this agreement which asset of theirs was used to fund the debt. Therefore if you dont pay, the loss would be allocated.....which it most certainly is not. The curtains are getting drawn back folks and the battles will be big

Regardless of how this thread started and the companies out there than class your debt as unenforcable, what myself and other freedom seeking individuals do is different and when you realise what the **** is going on youll soon see the ethical side is firmly with us.

Now anyone who wants to know more can find me on facebook at:-

The Liberty Wealth Club - http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=30880572383

soon to go online - http://www.freedomandwealth.net

and club site http://www.libertywealthclub.com


average Joe those 2 reasons for banking crisis are unfortunately nowhere near correct

[Average Joe]

Well Mike you seem to know a lot more about the banking crisis than me, so what do you reckon is the causes.

As for what you said about what banks do.....well nobody said they were saints and the are in it for maximum profit are they not? We know this when we take a loan. What you said, if correct...and sounds good...does seem a bit unethical, but really what difference does this make to you or me if we borrow money?

If you want to borrow money and the rate of repayment is acceptable, that is your only concern surely?

I've had debts before, and suffered with them due to the way they spiral, due to borrowing more to live on because too much income was servicing debts, and it went on. Yeah they made some money out of me alright.

I got out of that situation, it is very doable if you can negotiate the freezing of interest on your cards etc, but I couldn't sleep at night if I basically tried to get it completely written off on technicalities.

Whether the banks deserve it or not is irrelevant to me, morally I wouldn't go down that route.

[THE eXchanger]

if you "borrow" from anyone ...
then you should "pay it back"

if you short change someone...
somewhere, you will end up getting short changed back

getting things,
before you earn the things,
is a costly way of having things,
esp. since, if you did NOT do the right energetic things,
to deserve them in the first place

i believe in borrowing money for three things

1) school

2) a house

3) a car, is you need it, to do what earns you a living,
and, you can absolutely NOT, be without one
(1,000,000's of professionals, in new york/toronto/london,
etc., live without having a car)
and, you rent one, when you absolutely need to have one

if you are into your credit cards/and,
that is how you live - month to month
minimum payment to minimum payment
it is a good idea to realise,
that money is energy, and, energy can be raised,
and, normally, if you raise your energy,
and, order up the universe,
by offering "good exchange",
all that you require, will be given to you

i also agree with "baggywrinkle"

on the topic of "the money exchangers-or banks"
they thrive on your greed, and, your ability to say
charge it, when you can NOT afford to charge it
you are an asset to them, as long as you pay
you are a liability to them, if you do NOT pay
but, either way,
it is a liability to you/and, rarely are assets you acquire
on time, worth the price you pay to get them that way,
they are normally worn out/and, useless,
by the time, you ever get around to paying them off

if you have bad debt / consolidate it
and, then, if you do NOT want to pay cash for something,
then, do without it

at this point, the only thing i have,
is a mortgage, and, i hope to soon get rid of that,
by paying off 25% of the balance of it,
once a year
(yup...you can pay off a house in 5 years,
if you really focus on it)

also, perhaps more of us,
need to explore private mortgages,
instead of bank ones

my great-great grandfather was a money lender/
and, helped many immigrants, get into business/and, into houses/and, farms, esp. since banks would NOT help them,
and, he never charged anyone a lot of interest,
his rates, were 1% less than the bank--
and, where quite appealing to many people,
also, he never had to take anyone to court,
and, no one ever took him to court,
which says, a great deal about what a true money lender,
is all about

we need to exchange with one another,
and, side-swipe the bandits !!!

learn to barter/
and, trade with your neighbours
pass on things that you no longer use to someone else
buy somethings you need second hand

cheers/
susan
the eXchanger

[Average Joe]

After my experiences I don't believe in borrowing money period. Not anymore.

I don't have a mortgage, never took one out, partly because I had so much debt at the time when I was interested in buying a house, and then house prices shot up, which took mortgage affordability above my disposable income at that time.

I could afford a mortgage now and if I was ever going to borrow money ever again, I would only consider a mortgage, nothing else.

But I just don't want to go down that route again.

I have no loans, no credit cards, no store cards anymore, everything I buy these days is cash. My current car was bought cash etc. Everything, new TV, new cooker, redecorating, clothes, whatever, cash. If I don't happen to have the cash I don't buy it.

The banks do not control me anymore. Its liberating and satisfying.

[THE eXchanger]

that is great "average joe"
who is NOT really an "average" joe
i think he is a way "above average" joe :thumb_yello:

love/susan
the eXchanger

[Average Joe]

that is great "average joe"
who is NOT really an "average" joe
i think he is a way "above average" joe :thumb_yello:

love/susan
the eXchanger

Thank you susan.

I think average joe suits me though.

[isotelesis]

Check this out:

http://www.the7thfire.com/debt_elimination/media.htm#01

[alternative-answer]

Excellent, we should have the right to challenge bad practise, it is about recognising our own power and worth in effecting change on an individual and global level.

[Average Joe]

Recognising your own power and worth by ripping off creditors, and that is effectively what you are doing, negates everything about what you want to become and who you are.

Like I said, personally I couldn't sleep at night if I took the opportunity to walk away from owing a company x amount of money, knowing full well that we had an agreement.

These alleged bad practices by banks are no excuse for doing this, IMO.

Lets think of it this way, a person wants to be a good person and spread love and light, yet on the other hand wants to rip off or steal money that they owe out. That is hypocritical.

What is it that people say? I can think of two things that usually hold fairly true....

1 "Treat others as you would wish them to treat you"

2 "What goes around comes around"

In other words, going down this route to free yourself of debt, may give you a temporary feeling of empowerment and satisfaction, but I just feel you are going to be laying yourself open to a whole lot of trouble just waiting to come back at you later down the line.

Love, light, peace to you all but beware if I owe you money I'll try and rip you off.

Joe.

[QueenOfLeon]

These criminals have been robbing us for years. Literally taking the food out of babies mouths and feeding it to the fat cats! The rich get richer, the poor get poorer, it was engineered that way, so if I can finda loop hole to stop filling there pockets, phuck yeah im gonna take it! Now, my debts were run up by the fact that I had no disposable income at all and had to live off my credit card, its not as if I was going out and buying gucci handbags!! Also I ahve never defaulted and am always consious of my bills, they always get paid and I have always felt that I should pay it back, HOWEVER, now I know how utterly corrupt it all is, and how we have been manipulated, I say they can swivel.

It should be our god given right to have shelter and food without having to ask for pay outs and die through stress in the process of providing for our families! Meanwhile sickingly rich people get things free!!

They want the banks to fail, they set up this system so that it will be brought down so I say help them. If they are that bloody concerened why dont they just right off everyones mortgage and freeze interest. Yeah they will lose alot, but not everything!!
But they want it to fail.

PROBLEM, REACTION, SOLUTION.

[Mike_Jetson]

QueenofLeon youre pretty much there.

Im still tearing my hair out here.

isotelesis, that link is great and shows EXACTLY what i am talking about.

Joe, i know its a weird thing to get your head around but its not the banks money you have got. Nobody looses out when you dont pay. WE ARE KARMA correcting the evil they have made.

Seriously.

[Average Joe]

A bank lends you ten grand.

You steal the money by pointing out a loophole.

SOMEBODY has lost 10 grand.

End of story.

So we disagree on that one, you think its OK to theive money from financial institutions, I think it is immoral. Fair enough.

Onto the other point you made, why is it that we are in a credit crisis?

[Mike_Jetson]

A bank lends you ten grand.

You steal the money by pointing out a loophole.

SOMEBODY has lost 10 grand.

End of story.

So we disagree on that one, you think its OK to theive money from financial institutions, I think it is immoral. Fair enough.

Onto the other point you made, why is it that we are in a credit crisis?

Nobody has lost 10 grand. Here:-

"First you must understand that in our money system there are no funds because there is technically, no money. There is only debt and debt instruments that are used in place of money. They used your name to create a trust with themselves named as trustees, and they have used that trust as collateral on the national debt. That collateralization is in an asset account for the trust after it was monetized on the world money market. The process #3 establishes YOUR right as the trustor and takes that trust back under your control. Under your control you can transfer trust assets to the trust debt account, thereby discharging the debt.

You next must understand that the debt is not yours personally. You have, since you began doing money transactions, functioned as a voluntary fiduciary representative for that trust account, paying its bills with your own phony money. When you set up your first checking account, you accepted this relationship with the trust the government had set up in your name. You have not had control of this trust because you never claimed it and your parents could not control it for you because they were wards of the State like you. "

Research Fractional Reserve Banking. Banks at one point could lend £9 for every £1 they took on deposit. The problem is, when that £9 is paid back into the bank, the banks decides to multiply it by £9 again. In one step all this money has appeared from £1

The only reason we hit crisis this time around was a lack of confidence among banks. If they has stuck to the fractional reserve banking ratio then it wouldnt matter so much when debtors had trouble paying. They would hold enough cash on deposit to cover it. Not if they have unlawfully bypassed the system and created way too much 'money' from fresh air.

This is not about a loophole. Its about the law being broken by the creators of debt

[Average Joe]

Well it looks convincing, is there evidence to back this up?

I still can't get my head around it though. If a bank can lend £9 against a £1 deposit, to me that doesn't mean they are creating money out of fresh air. It means they can lend the money against the repayments + interest that they will collect. Where does the money come from? Well they are collecting payment from other debtors anyway, that can provide the capital to lend to new debtors. Theres no two ways about it that they will profit, but that is what businesses are in operation for.

Besides whether "I get it or not", that is not my gripe Mike.

If I want money up front by loan, it does not make any difference to me whether that money is fresh air, real or what.

All I care about is that a) I now have the 10 grand for example, to buy a car with and b) that I can pay it back. It matters not if it is all one big illusion, all that matters is that I am now able to buy the object that I borrowed money for. That is the bottom line.

So, I borrowed the money, I now owe the money and that is that. And that is my gripe. You borrow knowing that you're supposed to pay back.....even if not paying would apparantly leave no "victim"......it doesn't matter! We call this integrity.

If a friend lent you money, you'd pay it back.

[Esther]

Then we have a commonality we can work from.


What is right just and fair. That sword cuts both ways.
If someone cannot believe you would repay your obligation why would they loan to you in the first place?
That is what the world wide credit crunch is all about. It starts in the hearts of men. Men set policy for institutions.

Quid pro quo.

That is my point.




Neither a borrower nor a lender be;
For loan oft loses both itself and friend,
And borrowing dulls the edge of husbandry.
This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.

I think your point is judging, something you do really well. When people pay a debt over and over and interests rate and rules keep changing so much one cannot keep up, when people loose their homes to lies, it's time to say stop. And when banks sell loans to other banks with different rules, it's time to say stop. And when governments allow the rules to change to the detriment of a nation, it is time to say stop. And when that same government gives corporations a huge bailout to companies that have had obscene profits, it is time to say stop!!!!!!

In insiders circles, banks are known as legal thieves.

At one point, my husband had to pay a deductible of over $24,000 because he ended up in intensive care. Did we get in debt? Yes, we did. I was not about to let him die.

Get off your high horse and stop judging others.

[alternative-answer]

Average Joe stop taking the moral high ground with people on here, if you wanna be stiffed by banks then you crack on, but for the rest of us who will not roll over and be shafted that's our choice to seize back our power and take on the very people who would be knocking on your door if I was late paying my mortgage, loan, credit card etc, etc and would be quite happy to take my property to cover themselves.

[Mike_Jetson]

This is the exact reason that the big players dont need any more money. They have long ago created real wealth and assets and now hold almost all of the power. It started many moons ago by hoarding the gold and then creating all the cash to buy everything they would ever need, including governments.

The evidence is everywhere. Even Woodrow Wilson spoke about it 3 years after he sold his country to the bankers:-

""I am a most unhappy man. I have unwittingly ruined my country.
A great industrial nation is controlled by its system of credit.
Our system of credit is concentrated. The growth of the nation,
therefore, and all our activities are in the hands of a few men.
We have come to be one of the worst ruled, one of the most completely
controlled and dominated governments in the civilized world.
No longer a government by free opinion, no longer a government by
conviction and the vote of the majority, but a government by
the opinion and duress of a small group of dominant men."

Your birth certificate is used to create a bond that is sold by government to foreign powers, against your future taxes.

[Esther]

For the 'ethical' posters using the Bible to their advantage:

About the Jubilee... During this year the land was to be fallow, and the Israelites were only permitted to gather the spontaneous produce of the fields (Leviticus 25:11,12). All landed property during that year reverted to its original owner (13-34; 27:16-24), and all who were slaves were set free (25:39-54), and all debts were remitted.

Why? Because through the years abuses became rampant and this was the way to stop it.

[Mike_Jetson]

Sounds very much like what could happen now.

Eliminate third world debt. Oh hold on but that wouldnt be ethical. We still need to squeeze their blood and tears for the money they owe us which we created from thin air.

Another point. Some solicitors will know this but many wont. When you buy a house with a mortgage the reason you have certain papers to sign without putting a date on them is because you technically own the house before the mortgage is created. You dont get the money to buy the house. You borrow the money against the value of a property you own. You must first own the property. It is simply transfered from one to another

[isotelesis]

I believe in paying back repayable debts, I don't believe in perpetuating a monetary system based on usury, it depends on who and what is paying for your loan. All I suggest is people understand how their loan has been financed, then taking appropriate action to protect their rights, preferably through legal recourse. If somebody loans you money they don't have, should you pay them back? It depends on who owns the debt instrument. If nobody does, then why let someone else claim ownership if they did not own it in the first place? If I lend you $100 I don't have because I have the monopoly to create money based on nothing, do I have the right to force you to pay me back, even though I cheated you for something I never had in the first place? It depends on the circumstance, but all too often, people are being swindled by predatory lenders. The absolute power to create new credit out of nothing corrupts absolutely. Unfortunately, the entire world is now based on this fraudulent system. People are either too interested from its profits or too dependent on its favors to oppose this system. Therefore, we should all put our heads back down and keep chewing that grass, don't bother escaping, we've got snipers all around waiting to act on our orders. Accept the necessary evil, it is good for you, don't start thinking for yourself, that is bad for the collective, we must teach you to behave like the rest...good...don't bite the hand that feeds you now.

[zorgon]

YOU borrowed the money. No one held a gun to your head. You took the bait hook line and sinker. Suck it up or give it back!

Back in Canada I had occasion to help a friend through debt crisis... one case went to court...

When the Judge came in he made a little speech. He told the creditors not to expect sympathy from the court...

His reason? The creditor obviously made the loan easy to get without checking to see if the person had the ability to repay... Credit companies make it so easy to get in on purpose...

The courts do NOT favor the guy wanting his money back. This is why most companies will easily settle for 50% of the original.

Also a court will never collect accrued interest... only the initial debt will be considered...

Obviously saying "STOP BUYING ON CREDIT" comes to mind... but that is not the reality of todays market. If we stopped doing that tomorrow, the financial world would indeed crumble over night

Not paying back your debt does not hurt the company, as they can write off the entire amount from their taxes... so only the tax man gets hurt...

And I doubt many will sympathize with him :tongue2:

THEY set up this debt system, not us... WE are made victims not by choice...

For the few who can break away... congratulations :thumb_yello: but the rest do not know how...


Mortgage... instead of that shopping spree, put 100.00 extra a month on the principal... (or more if you can) In a short time you will not miss that 100.00 as it becomes routine...

Another idea.... (we do this) make 100 envelopes... mark them 1 to 100...
Now any extra cash you get... say a yard sale, a little side job or money you feel you can set a side... start filling the envelopes... $1,000.00 each

As soon as one is full... put it on the principal... because if you leave it around the house you will spend it :tongue2:

As long as you make a conscious effort you will be amazed at how your mortgage shrinks :thumb_yello:

Past Debt... I do not know if this works out side Canada or the USA... but there is a law that allows you to contact the credit bureaus and get your report Here in the US we have three main ones...

As soon as you get the lists... WRITE A PROTEST on every item on the list...

By law the credit bureau now is obligated to verify the debt. They do this by contacting the original debtor and requesting confirmation of the debt...

The debtor has 30 (maybe 60) days to respond. IF THEY DO NOT RESPOND then the credit reporting agency MUST remove it from your credit history

When we bought our house... the finance company we used did this for us. Like the OP stated 70% of them literally vanished, the rest all settled for 50%

Here is what happens...

Company A you owe 500.00 or less... after one year of no activity they sell off the account to a collection agency for a percentage of the debt.

At this point they have written you off literally on their taxes. The collection agency takes a gamble that they can harass you into paying... In most cases it works... or they would not be in business :tongue2:

After a year this agency sells it to another agency, again at a percentage... the lower down the food chain the nastier they get :lol3:

So if you protest and the ORIGINAL debtor has washed his hands of it and already processed it in the books... it comes off you credit report...

Also if there has been no activity on a debt, after 4 years it is removed and no longer collectible. Though be aware that some can still check back 7 years... but no longer...

As they say "Time heals many wounds"

Now I am not showing you this so you can go out and do something stupid, but to show those that are in serious debt a way out. It takes diligence and effort but you don't need to pay someone to do this. A credit report is free on yourself (3 or 4 times a year I believe)

Countrywide mortgage helped us this way, and I am sure other realtors do the same for their clients.


Next installment... Once you cleaned up your past, how to build it up again...

:wink2:

[zorgon]

For those who wish a relatively simple way to rebuild credit or those who are starting out with zero credit...

There is a way...

It requires a few things you MUST have...

A) $500.00
B) A steady job (does not have to be a high pay job but must be steady income for one year
C) A desire to make this work...
D) A good friend...

Okay get a pen and paper....:tongue2: Someone somewhere will be 'upset' with me for this revelation... (a lot of these 'get rich' companies use this secret and sell it to you :tongue2: )

You take the 500.00 and open a SECURED CREDIT CARD ACCOUNT in a bank that has no annual fee. If you secure a card with cash, you will get one with NO PROBLEM.

This card comes with a credit limit of 750.00 in most cases. Some only give 500.00 but look for the one that offers 750.00.

When you have the card... go and withdraw a cash advance of 500.00 no more...

With this 500.00 go to another bank and get a SECURED credit card...

Do this with 10 cards. I say 10 because it is easy to handle for an average person. You can do more but don't get greedy... that's what got you into the mess in the first place and you won't be able to handle the payments...

This is where the desire comes in... it will take a little work to track these cards...

Okay so now you have 10 card each with a credit value 750.00 each, plus each card is secured by 500.00 cash...

YES it is the SAME 500.00 used 10 times :wink2: This is what they call using other peoples money...

Now bear with me...

THIS is where the steady job comes in... because you now have 9 credit cards that you owe 500.00 on... (9 because you did not need to withdraw from the last one as you started with 500.00 of YOUR money...)

The average monthly payment on a 500.00 card is 12.50 to 15.00..

So 15.00 x 9 = 135.00 per month....

135.00 a month is all this will cost you... If you can afford that you can do this easily...

Not done yet...

This is where the friend comes in. Give the friend the 10 cards for safe keeping. You DO NOT want to use these cards for the year... PERIOD. You can cut them up if you don't have a friend. This is VERY IMPORTANT DO NOT USE THEM... Lock them away...

Now the payback.


After 1 year you will have..

10 credit cards that you have made a monthly payment ON TIME.

You will have in each of the 10 banks 500.00 cash. How?

Because you borrowed each 500.00 that you used to secure each card from your other card in other words from YOURSELF. You made the payments for 1 year and except for the interest charged by the card company, you are in effect repaying YOURSELF...

At the end of 12 months of paying on time... a majic thing happens... your credit on that account is great and the card becomes unsecured and they raise or double your limit to 1,500

So at the end of one year you have
$5,000.00 cash in savings (10 x 500.00)
$7,500.00 in credit if you decline the increase in your limit
15,000.00 in credit best case scenario

And the next time someone asks you to list your credit referals you have 10 bank references in good standing

So there you have one of THEIR secrets...

As long as you make the 9 monthly payments on time this is totally legit and a fast track to get you on your feet...

After that you are on your own to keep it that way and not give into temptation...



:welcomeani:

[calico]

Average Joe stop taking the moral high ground with people on here, if you wanna be stiffed by banks then you crack on, but for the rest of us who will not roll over and be shafted that's our choice to seize back our power and take on the very people who would be knocking on your door if I was late paying my mortgage, loan, credit card etc, etc and would be quite happy to take my property to cover themselves.

I agree with Average Joe.

It is energy. If you voluntarily took part in a system and now want to get out, get out honorably. Pay what you committed to pay to those who you made commitments to. If you want to stop dancing the same old dance, then let your partner down gracefully, for your own sake, not for your partner's sake. Very little in life is 'real'. To get mad at 'the man' and to stop honoring a commitment that you made, albeit in an 'unreal' currency, will not energetically charge you in the least. In fact, it will bring you down a few notches. You don't need to seize back your power .. no-one has it, you still have it. Go and use it wisely.

[Baggywrinkle]

=


Also a court will never collect accrued interest... only the initial debt will be considered...

Obviously saying "STOP BUYING ON CREDIT" comes to mind... but that is not the reality of todays market. If

There is one system I have found which originated in Australia & The UK which does work **IF** you are disciplined. As stated above you eliminate your mortgage by paying the principal off. This program will
work provided you earn more than you spend, even if it is only a small amount. I have opened a Home Equity
Line of Credit. This is not unusual. What is unusual is I deposit my entire paycheck into the HELOC which
keeps the average daily balance low resulting in less interest paid out. Spending less than I make allows
the HELOC to approach a zero balance. When it gets close to sero the sum of your gross monthly salary plus five
thousand dollars is borrowed and paid directly to the principle of your primary mortgage. How is this different
from a biweekly system or an extra payment? If you have an urgent need for money, the car blows up or you owe
the IRS a balance, the HELOC is there to buffer the cost. The is known as an MMA or money merge account.
I used to keep 5,000 dollars in a savings or checking account for those rainy day emergencies. This is called
lazy money. Now it sits in the HELOC keeping the average daily balance down while it is waiting to be spent.
Want to cut yourself an interest free loan? My credit cards and HELOC are with the same company. Transfers for
payment occur the same day. I purchase EVERYTHING on the credit card which has a twenty five day grace period.
The money for payment lies in the HELOC keeping the average daily balance lower and saving me money until the due
date, then the credit card is paid off in full each month. Using this system I can look forward to paying thirty
thousand dollars a year on the principle of my primary mortgage without pain. That translates into being free and
clear in 5-7 years depending on how disciplined we are vs twenty seven years playing the old game. Interest savings will be seventy thousand dollars

[QueenOfLeon]

EVERYBODY IS IN THE SYSTEM!!

The fact is way back when some smart **** presuaded people to swap their gold for peper. Our money is worthless. Then credit was leant off of the back of the fact that their were assets in the bank *gold* to back up any transctions if need be. But we kept using paper. Then they started charging interest on the paper money....which would work as long as everybody didnt ask for their gold back at once.

YOU DO THE MATH.

There is not enough assets to back up the fiat money people. The banks dont lose, the mint doesnt even print it, they are numbers on screen! The point being - you use cash you are in the system, like it or not.

[Esther]

Does anyone here understand what a contract is? One of the parties cannot change the rules. Otherwise, the contract is null and void.

This is what has been going on and proclaiming that one has to pay and perpetuate a detestable and fraudulent system, is working for the dark.

Humanity needs to rise and change the system, period. It is the only thing that will work.

All have a right to shelter, food and basic needs. The lenders have been taking the creditors for a ride into the unknown. If they can twist the rules, well...so can we.

[371]

I got out of over $20,000 of reckless credit debt by paying $2500 few years ago.

I did it myself, you just gotta know what to say

[Esther]

Chase Bank was taken on by the Attorney General of California. In federal court, Chase Bank lost and had to contact their clients and offer a very low interest rate in their credit cards.

Guess what Chase did? They wrote the letter, offered it to some people and defied Federal Court by oops!!! forgetting to write to all of their clients.

This is happening over and over. Taking the lenders to court becomes a lengthy process once again in which the bank makes billions of dollars. The courts will decide against the bank once more, but by that time, their money arks are bursting in dough.

Capitol One has a 'mistake' in their programming and this is also an oops! Their system makes a wrong addition and puts clients to pay interest in a now phony amount. People do not check on this and end up being literally robbed. When the bank is faced, they credit the original amount, but all interests made are kept on their coffers.

Who can make decent business deals with these thieves? No one.

[Baggywrinkle]

Who can make decent business deals with these thieves? No one.

Eliminate usuary!

Eric Whoru came up with decent solution.

Federalize the loan industry. Renegotiate the toxic loans to fixed rate loans.
Use the interest collected to fund new loans in a nonprofit system.

http://truthseekersnews.com/

But the fact remains, if you fail to repay the principle of your loan then you
are no better then the loan sharks you are railing against. Cut straight to the
chase. Eliminate the money exchange. You have a house or wide screen television - just hand it over. You have the goods and give nothing in return
it is theft or a very nice gift.

[Average Joe]

Zorgon.

Yes you would have £5,000 in savings across the banks.

But in paying £135 a month across those cards over a year you would still owe £4,000 approximately on the cards.

Net result = £1,000 profit approximately.

Except you have paid £1,670 out of your monthly salary to have this £5,000 savings and £4,000 debt. (£1,000 net profit)

Yeah, you'd have a great credit rating, but in reality you have LOST money not gained it.

Here is the simplest way to do it..... open no secured credit card accounts and save £135 a month. Then you have £1,670 plus a bit of interest at the end of the year.

If anything you draw has interest applied to it, and you do not pay the full balance off within the interest free period, you will LOSE money, no two ways about it. Then debt accumulates.

[daisiray]

I got out of over $20,000 of reckless credit debt by paying $2500 few years ago.

I did it myself, you just gotta know what to say

what did you do? how did you do it and what did you say??

[Baggywrinkle]

what did you do? how did you do it and what did you say??

Contact these folks. This company was founded by a woman whose daughter fell deep into debt back in the
eighties. Using their techniques we will shave twenty two
years off our thirty year mortgage and save seventy thousand dollars in interest that will not be paid.
http://payaccel.com/index.php

[Truther21]

Contact these folks. This company was founded by a woman whose daughter fell deep into debt back in the
eighties. Using their techniques we will shave twenty two
years off our thirty year mortgage and save seventy thousand dollars in interest that will not be paid.
http://payaccel.com/index.php

Thanks for all your info but the money you use is not real. Why are you here and what is your intent? People want good answers and solutions and not some dude telling them to suck it up. You, I am wondering are posting on wrong site for your thought pattern. You cant repay something that does not exsist. Please refrain from making people think the way you do. I want to hear people with an open mind, and not blind eyes. Peace to you my friend and may your journey be swift and smooth.


Also, in my books everyone is equal. Just becuase there are rich people dosn't mean anybody else should not be able to have anything they want.

[Average Joe]

Anyway people, the moral of the story is - don't take financial advice from Zorgon.:naughty:

[Baggywrinkle]

Thanks for all your info but the money you use is not real. Why are you here and what is your intent? People want good answers and solutions and not some dude telling them to suck it up. You, I am wondering are posting on wrong site for your thought pattern. You cant repay something that does not exsist. Please refrain from making people think the way you do. I want to hear people with an open mind, and not blind eyes. Peace to you my friend and may your journey be swift and smooth.


Also, in my books everyone is equal. Just becuase there are rich people dosn't mean anybody else should not be able to have anything they want.

The money may not be real but the exchange of labor and goods is real.

Open your mouth my idealistic friend and manifest a meal. Go ahead, I'm watching. If it fails then wander to the nearest house for sale and convince the owner to turn the house over to you. Eliminate the money. Eliminate the middle man. No bank. Just you and the owner. Trade him something for nothing. Surely your good looks will be enough. I'm watching...

There now, you have told me off. There is nothing more to say


You have an ignore button.

I suggest you use it.

[Mike_Jetson]

Great. some valuable comments coming. I will quote and reply to these one by one as we are getting somewhere now.

I believe in paying back repayable debts,

All I suggest is people understand how their loan has been financed, then taking appropriate action to protect their rights, preferably through legal recourse.

Yes this is exactly what myself and other members do. We have studied the law hard and now know exactly how and where we have been swindled.

It depends on who owns the debt instrument. If nobody does, then why let someone else claim ownership if they did not own it in the first place? If I lend you $100 I don't have because I have the monopoly to create money based on nothing, do I have the right to force you to pay me back, even though I cheated you for something I never had in the first place?


Bingo! Guess what. The debt instrument is your signature but they have used it to create a promise to pay. Under the law, once the debt is repaid you are supposed to get your instrument returned to you so they should be able to supply you with the promissary note, BUT THEY CANT! :) Your example was good. If you had lent me $100 and I had paid back this $100 to you, you should keep the interest and I should get my $100 back as my name was used to create it. Its technically mine.

Then they started charging interest on the paper money....which would work as long as everybody didnt ask for their gold back at once. There is not enough assets to back up the fiat money people. .

Same as now. There is not enough money (the paper stuff) for people to even withdraw the money they own. The same problem can easily happen and this is a major reason the banks had big problems. all it took back then was for 10 % to ask for their gold. Now its less than 5%. A small amount of customers can take down any bank simply by moving their money elsewhere.



I got out of over $20,000 of reckless credit debt by paying $2500 few years ago.
I did it myself, you just gotta know what to say

Very true. One of the things we teach and share is a bookfull of techniques used by credit negotiation companies. The ones that charge you a fortune and sometimes cant get even 50% deleted.


Federalize the loan industry. But the fact remains, if you fail to repay the principle of your loan then you
are no better then the loan sharks you are railing against.

http://payaccel.com/index.php

Go back to 1912 before the federal reserve act was passed. Many problems solved right there. If the government creates the money the government keeps the profits which results in lower taxes and even more growth, resulting in more taxes, its a great circle that creates abundance.

The people running that site seem to be offering a councilling service, creating budgets, getting your cash to work for you etc rather than using the law in our favour

Anyway people, the moral of the story is - don't take financial advice from Zorgon.:naughty:

Really its a good plan. The problem is paying the interest. Its a good plan for folk who really are in the deep end with their credit and are trying to repair it. There are some good variations on the technique. It wouldnt work well here in the UK because cash withdrawals from a credit card are between 20-30 percent for a good cards, way more for bad. However I havnt looked into the details of the secureed cards which are held against your deposit. If they let you withdraw cash at a rate lower than 15% is a decent deal to get your credit back on good feet.

However, the techniques that we know about can get disputed debt changed/removed etc. And also the technique you suggested for getting the agencies to check individual accounts for accuracy is a good one. Slow banks mean a deleted record for you. Just make sure you try and keep the good ones on file.

For UK folk - totally free reports online with great info on each payment too - http://www.annualcreditreport.co.uk/

More info about us again check out:-

www.freedomandwealth.co.uk (enter email for info to your inbox)
& main site www.libertywealthclub.com (audio links recommended)

[Average Joe]

Sorry Mike, but I can only agree that Zorgon's plan is good for restoring credit and nothing else. It certainly does not benefit you financially.

The way he put it across, unless I misunderstood it, was as a kind of secret way of making yourself money, and obviously that is impossible.

As for the opening of credit card accounts and making monthly payments on time to repair your credit rating, I thought that was fairly common knowledge?

And why create a £5,000 debt for yourself from nothing and a £135 monthly payment just to have another £15,000 credit available on top just waiting to **** you over?

As you can tell, I'm not a fan of debt, even if my mantra is pay back what you owe.

[Mike_Jetson]

Sorry Mike, but I can only agree that Zorgon's plan is good for restoring credit and nothing else. It certainly does not benefit you financially.

The way he put it across, unless I misunderstood it, was as a kind of secret way of making yourself money, and obviously that is impossible.

As for the opening of credit card accounts and making monthly payments on time to repair your credit rating, I thought that was fairly common knowledge?

And why create a £5,000 debt for yourself from nothing and a £135 monthly payment just to have another £15,000 credit available on top just waiting to **** you over?

As you can tell, I'm not a fan of debt, even if my mantra is pay back what you owe.

Well its a good way of looking creditworthy. Its very important if you either want a mortgage or have a mortgage but have gone and messed up your credit somehow. Especially if you are coming to the end of a fixed deal or simply spot a better deal with our rates moving down.

This method does require discipline and isnt for anyone who lost discipline and got in a mess in the 1st place.

Yes I agree its not a way to make money. I will read it again as im sure ive read something similar.

Remember this method is for people who simply cant get credit. That could mean no landline phone, no mobile phone etc Many companies will credit check you even if they dont have to create credit for you. If you pay a bit of cash anyone can credit check you if they like. hell quite a lot of employers do it.

Technically its the best way of getting some good credit records with lots of lenders and it will cost you about $700

[Baggywrinkle]

I think your point is judging, something you do really well. When people pay a debt over and over and interests rate and rules keep changing so much one cannot keep up, when people loose their homes to lies, it's time to say stop. And when banks sell loans to other banks with different rules, it's time to say stop. And when governments allow the rules to change to the detriment of a nation, it is time to say stop. And when that same government gives corporations a huge bailout to companies that have had obscene profits, it is time to say stop!!!!!!

In insiders circles, banks are known as legal thieves.

At one point, my husband had to pay a deductible of over $24,000 because he ended up in intensive care. Did we get in debt? Yes, we did. I was not about to let him die.

Get off your high horse and stop judging others.

So did you pay it? Did you make arrangement to pay eighty dollars a month taking food off the table to do it until it was paid. I have Miss Esther and I have been in your shoes. My daughter was hit by a car and we did.

Or did you cry poor mouth and skate like another poster in this thread bragging how he paid pennies on the dollar for foolish debt and offering to show others how to do it?

Don't try to play high and mighty with me till you have
paid for your neighbors medicine out of your own pocket. I work in health care and I've done that several times on occasion through the years for my patients and coworkers.

We made an interest free loan to a man who needed a leg up of two thousand dollars three years ago. He paid me a thousand dollars back when I threatened him with
the felony of grand theft. Three years later he still owes me 1000 and is full of excuses. Fifty five dollars a month
would have seen it paid by now. I'd have been happy with ten dollars a month because it shows good faith.

I don't have too much sympathy for the sense of entitlement that I see on a daily basis among the very rich and the very poor. I love and have great respect for the working stiff who comes to me who has no insurance and no respect at all for the medicare recipient that I bring gatoraide for who then complains that they wanted orange and not green. Or the man driving the jag flipping his medicare card at me

Don't talk to me about high and mighty until you have been so poor that you have to save for months to buy a pair of shoes at the good will. My wife has been. Have you ever counted potatoes to make sure you had enough to last the week? My wife has.

Buy a sixty thousand dollar home instead of a four hundred thousand dollar home just because you can.

If your government has gone rogue on you and I agree with you that it has, honey, it's your own fault. You get the government you deserve. I suggest that you scrape together the money, perhaps join with your neighbors to buy a copy of Naomi Wolfs book Give Me Liberty. Then get up off your duff and do something about it.

I'm impressed with action, not excuses. If someone has done you a favor, you are in debt. Don't pay it back, pay it forward. Do your part to make the world a better place. America's greatest generation is all but gone now.
They had ethics. They had morals, and they had honor.
Do you?

[THE eXchanger]

I got out of over $20,000 of reckless credit debt by paying $2500 few years ago.

I did it myself, you just gotta know what to say

Although, this comment is NOT aimed directly at 371
take this for what it is worth:

there was $20,000.00 of energy taken
(reckless, or, otherwise, it does NOT much matter)
you used $20,000.00 worth

then there was $ 2,500.00 of energy paid back

the $17,500.00 is still floating / NOT yet paid back

one way/or another the universe will haul it out of your ass

NOW...another thing to ponder

whatever you have ever been, you always get to be

and,

whatever you have lost,
will always, & in all ways,
be returned to you, in some other way

energy is energy

a contract is a contract - it is an oath (to pay back)
(or, to get paid back) depends on what side of the equation you are on

there is NO getting out of any kind of energetic transfer !!!

some of us, do hit a point,
where we start to get, philantrophic karma,
and, there are a lot of people, who benefit,
from that type of energetic transfers,
when parents/or family, or friends,
who pass on & leave money in their wills,
to us

oft times, if you raise your energy,
the flow of dollars, will also increase,
however, i am glad, that anything,
i have ever borrowed,
i have always, been able to pay back.

when i look, at people, who borrowed from me,
and, never did pay me back, i do NOT need to wonder,
why they are still floundering and, struggling,
and, what is worse,
is they do NOT even realise why,

a few of them,
do NOT appear, to be doing that badly,
however, i look at them, and, they buy the wife,
a 2nd hand BMW, to look good, and,
yet, they do NOT have the $5,000 to pay me back -- sooner, or later,
some of them, might get wise,
and, realise, that, they could pay me $50/mo
instead of nothing
& a lot of things would change for them

however, what is the purpose,
to hound them for the money ?
they know they owe me

the universe, will take it from them,
one way or another
and, the universe, will give it back to me,
one way or another
it is really an intrique weaving process,
which is merely, the way in which, the score gets kept

personally, i do NOT think you escape anything

it is a time to be responsible -- live simple !!!

love
susan
the eXchanger

[Mike_Jetson]

Susan youve missed the point entirely. If you missed some of the facts I wrote then this could be why youve maybe missed the point. If you want to look at it as transference of energy than I can handle that easily.

A true asset that the bank has the possibility to lose creates risk. The risk factor decides the interest rate. Now, if the bank has no risk of losing any asset then how do they decide on the rate? Its a fact that they create an asset which you lawfully own. You own the instrument that is held against the debt which you are supposed to get back once the debt is paid. This is most definately not like loaning a neighbour some cash, thats entirely different as the asset held is trust. Your neighbours doesnt pay he loses the trust he had with you.

The banks fraudulently create an asset in your name and use this to create the debt that you can use. You are using your own money. Its like the secured credit card zorgon talked about except instead of you paying the bank cash so you can use their credit facilities the bank creates the cash for you. Its your cash before you even start to borrow it.

I strongly suggest people watch http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-1380205823510161893&ei=ot4WSfG7KILm2QLCm9W9DQ&q=big+swindle

It was uploaded by a club I was a member of before I joined Liberty Wealth Club. Fast forward to 14min and the key part is around the 15min mark

[peacelovinman]

Hi everyone

I'd like to add my two-penneth worth into this discussion.

Some years ago I managed to get myself out of all personal debt by selling a house that had apprecaited in worth. The reason was three fold:

1) So I didn't waste time working just to pay interest on what I borrowed.
2) To ensure as few people/organisations had any hold over me (when you owe someone, they have power over you).
3) Because I DETEST the immoral banking system.

Let's get one thing straight here: the majority of money in our economy HAS BEEN CREATED FROM THIN AIR! Where did the billions come to bail out the banks? It was created from nothing! Nobody put anything of worth into the deal - the money was simply created from nothing. This money is backed by nothing of worth - it is "fiat" currency.

Now, I don't have any credit card debts so I can't test out the fact that the agreements are uneforceable. But for those of you that, like me, would like your view of how the financial world works blown apart, I suggest you read "Spiritual Economics: How I Clobbered Every Bureaucratic Cash-Confiscatory Agency Known To Man" by Mary Elizabeth: Croft. You can download it for free from various places on the net.

For those of you who argue that, if you borrow $ 10,000 and don't pay it back, someone loses out show a naive understanding of how our economy works. If I spend $ 10,000 on my credit card, who has actually loaned me the money? No-one! It's just credit that has been created by my signature. That's why the contract is unenforceable. If you ask the credit card company to show you the actual accounting to validate the debt, they can't! They do not sustain a loss if you do not repay because the credit was created from nothing!

Lastly, a question for Mike. I quite like the sound of the Liberty Wealth Club but I have fallen victim to some of these network marketing scams before. Does the club offer something of real value or does it just teach people a "system" whereby you get paid for recruiting people into the system?

In other words, does it provide worthwhile financial information to their members in return for a fee, with those members that recommend others to join being paid a small commission or residual on their subscription (nothing wrong with that in my book)...

or...

Do they simply show you how to make money by recruiting people into the system who, in order to make money, have to recruit others with no actual worthwhile service or product being offered (a con, in my book)?

[Baggywrinkle]

Hi everyone



Let's get one thing straight here: the majority of money in our economy HAS BEEN CREATED FROM THIN AIR! Where did the billions come to bail out the banks? It was created from nothing! Nobody put anything of worth into the deal - the money was simply created from nothing. This money is backed by nothing of worth - it is "fiat" currency.



Agreed.

But that does not address the exchange of energy [labor] for goods and services, or goods and services exchanged for goods and services.

No one wants to talk about that aspect

If you want a wide screen television that is valued at
1.36 ounces of gold, which is [B]real money by any accounting that would be 1000 fiat dollars for discussion.

It took labor and materials to build that television. You need to come up with an equivalent amount of energy or goods to compensate the builders for their effort. Or you need to build your own television.

Put another way. The jerk that owes me 1000 fiat dollars. You are saying that he owes me nothing because I gave him nothing. This is not correct. I gave him forty hours of my life. He took the equivalent of my time and translated it into goods and services. Now he refuses to return the equivalent of my time to me. In order to replace that stored energy I am required to give up forty more hours of my time just to return to where I was before I encountered him. I am eighty hours older to maintain my lifestyle because of him.

You purchase a home for twohundredthousand dollars.
The owner walks away with the equivalent of 8000 hours of labor/life time that he will not have to work (using the pay rate of twenty five fiat dollars an hour). Now if you only give 1000 hours of your time, the owner has the time and your lender does not.

The value of an object or service is relative. If you can convince the owner to trade that home for a paper clip -
than it is a fair exchange because both parties are content with their exchange. However, if one of those parties is not content, then you have disparity and a problem. The point is, at the time of exchange you agreed that the value of that home was 8,000 hours of your life. Then, down the road you change your mind and only want to give 1000 hours of your life, yet can still exchange that home for eight thousand hours of another persons life? There is a disparity apparent here which I do not understand. Perhaps you could enlighten me.

Money is just an exchange medium. A system of stored
energy. What is the value of your life? A paperclip? It is all negotiable.

I do not have a problem with renegotiating the entire system. But rest assured, it will be replaced with another system unless you are clever enough to get the rest of the world to give you their lives with nothing in return as the money changers have. In the end it all comes down to meeting the needs and wants of people.
On a small scale this is fairly easy. Face to face, you know when you have been swindled. You also know when you look in the mirror if you have behaved without integrity. But on a larger scale, it is much easier to lose sight of the ethics of living in the world.

[Average Joe]

For those of you who argue that, if you borrow $ 10,000 and don't pay it back, someone loses out show a naive understanding of how our economy works. If I spend $ 10,000 on my credit card, who has actually loaned me the money? No-one! It's just credit that has been created by my signature. That's why the contract is unenforceable. If you ask the credit card company to show you the actual accounting to validate the debt, they can't! They do not sustain a loss if you do not repay because the credit was created from nothing!



Absolute utter rubbish. Get in the real world people.

It does not matter a toss whether the money is real or created from fresh air. It does not matter if the money is indeed fresh air. The FACT is that if you go to a shop and spend 10 grand on your credit card, the credit card company gives the shop 10 grand for your goods. The shop WOULD NOT accept your card if it thought it would not get the 10 grand from your credit card company!

The credit card company has PAID out 10 grand to the shop, who want their money, and is thus 10 grand down, and YOU owe it to the credit card company who advanced the money to the shop! There is no two ways about it and no getting away from this very basic fact!

It matters not that the credit card company did not send 10 grand in notes to the shop, and that it is just numbers on a computer screen or statement.

I can't believe the **** that people come out with to justify things.

[Esther]

Absolute utter rubbish. Get in the real world people.

It does not matter a toss whether the money is real or created from fresh air. It does not matter if the money is indeed fresh air. The FACT is that if you go to a shop and spend 10 grand on your credit card, the credit card company gives the shop 10 grand for your goods. The shop WOULD NOT accept your card if it thought it would not get the 10 grand from your credit card company!

The credit card company has PAID out 10 grand to the shop, who want their money, and is thus 10 grand down, and YOU owe it to the credit card company who advanced the money to the shop! There is no two ways about it and no getting away from this very basic fact!

It matters not that the credit card company did not send 10 grand in notes to the shop, and that it is just numbers on a computer screen or statement.

I can't believe the **** that people come out with to justify things.

The problem is that it is also **** to change the rules on the ones who owe, to make them pay incredble amounts of money, something that constitutes government sponsored ususry by continually changing the rules. That is also an unfair exchange of energy. And I repeat, a repeal of the original contract.

What lalaland some people live in...

[THE eXchanger]

for those who are creating "the money"
there is major karma for them to pay, for doing so

i, for one, am very glad, i am NOT in their shoes

in fact, the only shoes, you can be in, are your OWN

do you honour the ones you are in ???

brightest blessings
susan
the eXchanger

[peacelovinman]

Put another way. The jerk that owes me 1000 fiat dollars. You are saying that he owes me nothing because I gave him nothing. This is not correct. I gave him forty hours of my life. He took the equivalent of my time and translated it into goods and services. Now he refuses to return the equivalent of my time to me. In order to replace that stored energy I am required to give up forty more hours of my time just to return to where I was before I encountered him. I am eighty hours older to maintain my lifestyle because of him.



No, I am not saying that. The original question talked about credit agreements; what you allude to is not a credit agreement but a contract to supply goods or services. You do not have a legal right to create credit as banks do. If you attempted to do so, you would be arrested for counterfeiting.

In the transaction you detail above, you are more than able to show the accounting (i.e. that you have suffered material loss by somebody not paying you). Therefore, if you can also show that you have a legally binding contract with that person for supply of goods, you can collect, in fiat currency or any other medium of exchange agreed in your contract.

Banks and credit companies have given NOTHING and can therefore not show where a liability has occured. Again, I suggest you read the Mary Elizabeth: Croft book if you want to study the arguements.

Thanks for your comments, friend, and for advancing the discussion.

[peacelovinman]

Absolute utter rubbish. Get in the real world people.

It does not matter a toss whether the money is real or created from fresh air. It does not matter if the money is indeed fresh air. The FACT is that if you go to a shop and spend 10 grand on your credit card, the credit card company gives the shop 10 grand for your goods. The shop WOULD NOT accept your card if it thought it would not get the 10 grand from your credit card company!

The credit card company has PAID out 10 grand to the shop, who want their money, and is thus 10 grand down, and YOU owe it to the credit card company who advanced the money to the shop! There is no two ways about it and no getting away from this very basic fact!

It matters not that the credit card company did not send 10 grand in notes to the shop, and that it is just numbers on a computer screen or statement.

I can't believe the **** that people come out with to justify things.

Please read the "Croft" book I have already alluded to and you will see a different side to the arguement.

Contempt, prior to complete investigation, enslaves men to ignorance. – Dr. John Whitman Ray

All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident. – Arthur Schopenhauer Philosopher, 1788-1860

Capital must protect itself in every possible way, both by combination and legislation. Debts must be collected, mortgages foreclosed as rapidly as possible. When through the process of law the common people lose their homes, they will become more docile and more easily governed through the strong arm of government applied by a central power of wealth under leading financiers. These truths are well known among our principal men who are now engaged in forming an imperialism to govern the world. By dividing the voter through the political party system we can get them to expend their energies in fighting for questions of no importance. It is thus by discreet action we can secure for ourselves that which has been so well planned and so successfully accomplished. – 1924 US Banker’s Association Magazine

When Rothschild said, Let me issue and control a nation’s money and I care not who writes its laws, it was the beginning of the modern era’s financial, political, social, commercial, and military strife and subversion. – perfecteconomy.com

The financial system has been turned over to the Federal Reserve Board. That board administers a finance system by authority of a purely profiteering group. That system is private, conducted for the sole purpose of obtaining the greatest possible profits from the use of other people’s money.
This (Federal Reserve) Act establishes the most gigantic trust on earth. When the president signs this bill, the invisible government by the monetary power will be legalized. The people may not know it immediately but the day of reckoning is only a few years removed, the worst legislative crime of the ages perpetrated by this banking bill. – Charles A. Lindbergh, R-MN

We have in this country one of the most corrupt institutions the world has ever known. I refer to the Federal Reserve Board. This institution has impoverished the people of the United States and has practically bankrupted our government. It has done this through the corrupt practices of the money
vultures who control it. A superstate controlled by international bankers and international industrialists acting together to enslave the world for their own pleasure. – Louis McFadden, D-PA

Most Americans have no real understanding of the operation of the international money lenders. The accounts of the Federal Reserve system have never been audited. It operates outside the control of Congress and manipulates the credit of the United States. – Barry Goldwater, R-AZ

I have unwittingly ruined my country. – W. Wilson, upon passage of Federal Reserve Act, 1913

If one understands that Socialism is not a “share the wealth” program but is in reality a method to consolidate and control the wealth, then the seeming paradox of super rich men promoting Socialism becomes no paradox at all. Instead it becomes logical, even the perfect tool of power-seeking
megalomaniacs. Communism, or more accurately Socialism, is not a movement of the down-trodden masses but of the economic elite. – Gary Allen

It (the Great Depression) was not accidental; it was a carefully contrived occurrence. The international Bankers sought to bring about a condition of despair here so that they might emerge as rulers of us all. – Louis McFadden

The Federal Reserve definitely caused the Great Depression by contracting the amount of currency in circulation by one third (1/3) from 1929 to 1933. – Milton Friedman

There may be a recession in stock prices, but not anything in the nature of a crash. – Irving Fisher, leading U.S. economist, New York Times, Sept. 5, 1929

Practices of the unscrupulous money-changers stand indicted in the court of public opinion, rejected by the hearts and minds of men. The money changers have fled from their high seats in the temple of our civilization. – FDR, who admitted he never read the Act which recalled the gold in 1933

History records that the money changers have used every form of abuse, intrigue, deceit, and violent means possible to maintain their control over governments by controlling the money and its issuance. –
James Madison

It is well enough that the people of this nation do not understand our banking and monetary system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning. – Henry Ford

The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace in a continual state of alarm (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing them with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary. – H. L. Mencken

[peacelovinman]

Here is an interesting thread from the "Think Free" forums that give a perspective of "money" straight from the horses mouth, as it were, the Bank of England.

http://www.thinkfreeforums.org/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=3797

[Average Joe]

It does not matter what money is or where it comes from, it is just a system of credits and debits anyway.

What i said in my last post is fact, fact and only fact.

You spend money on the credit card, it is somebodys money no matter what, and you owe it.

Now the extortionate interest rates, which they change as and when they feel like, now thats a point well made by esther.

[peacelovinman]

It does not matter what money is or where it comes from, it is just a system of credits and debits anyway.

What i said in my last post is fact, fact and only fact.

You spend money on the credit card, it is somebodys money no matter what, and you owe it.

Now the extortionate interest rates, which they change as and when they feel like, now thats a point well made by esther.

Yes, this is the game of commerce.

"A deposit created through lending is a debt that has to be paid on demand of the depositor, just the same as the debt arising from a customer's deposit of checks or currency in the bank. Of course they do not really pay out loans from the money they receive as deposits. If they did this, no additional money would be created. What they do when they make loans is to accept promissory notes in exchange for credits to the borrowers' transaction accounts." – Federal Reserve Bank, Chicago, Modern Money Mechanics, p. 6

So, if you want to keep playing the game and pay back money that they never lent you, go ahead. I've done the same thing, but I'm learning the rules of the game fast.

To quote Mary Croft:

" When we ‘borrow money’ from a bank, which seems to be the only entity from which we can borrow, our signature upon a ‘promise to pay’ is not only what gets us the loan but also what immediately repays the loan. Did the bank lend us money? No. There is no money. It didn’t lend ‘money’, it exchanged the credit we created for bank promissory notes. I watch people’s eyes glaze over when I mention this concept so think of this:

I take my credit card over to Sears and purchase $100 worth of goods. I sign on the line which states, “I agree to pay...” I do agree to pay, just as soon as they can devise a method for me to do this. Since 1933, when the USA declared bankruptcy and who knows when in Canada (since Canada was on and off the gold standard for some time after the uSA fell to the banksters) public policy (in the uSA: HJR 192 of June 5, 1933, and in Canada, Order in Council No. 16, April 10, 1933) has dictated that since there is nothing of
substance with which to pay, the best I can do is promise to pay. All public debt will be discharged by the feds. Those who hold the gold pay the debt. The only way to do this is to sign a note with the number attached to it. It is a promissory note – the same as that which we sign in a bank just before we are told they won’t lend us cash.

I have asked ‘loan officers’ why they won’t just hand over to me the cash which we’ve just agreed I was going to borrow. They say, “I don’t have the cash right here; I’ll give you a cheque which you can take over to the teller and she’ll either deposit it into your account from which you can then withdraw cash, or you can just cash the cheque.” I ask, “If its right over there with the teller, why can’t you go over for me and get the cash?” They then tell me that I have to endorse the cheque they intend to give me. But I signed for cash. I promise to pay $10,000 plus interest for ... $10,000, not a piece of paper with numbers and a date on it. Why isn’t this a straight exchange – note for cash? Because they want two signatures. Keep in mind that every time we sign anything, we are creating credit, rather, bringing forth our unlimited credit, and if for some reason we don’t receive this credit, count on the fact that someone else did – by stealing our exemption. To
boot, we have agreed to it – take a look at the (unilateral and hence, unenforceable) contract, whether it is your driver’s licence or your credit card application. Your exemption is being stolen through your signature. It is
worth a fortune. Time to take control, eh?

Let’s get back to Sears. When I went into the store for the goods and I made payment, in whatever form, what did I get for my payment? No, not the goods; I got a receipt. The direct exchange was signature for
receipt. The goods were already mine; I just came to collect them. So, the merchant is happy because I signed for the goods; i.e.: he exchanged goods for my signature which that day was worth $100, so his accounts are
balanced. He doesn’t see that he exchanged his receipt for my signature. My books are balanced because I exchanged my signature for his receipt, I also happened to get the goods, which were pre-paid. Then, the merchant sends to the bank, my signature along with the hundreds of others which he gathered that day. The bank then transfers funds electronically over to Sears. The bank did not gather up cash (or anything of substance) and send it over to Sears; it transferred to Sears, by the clicking of computer keys (Electronic Funds Transfer), the amount of credit matching, and hence balancing the amount of, the credit slips. I’ll say it again, because it is so stunning: NO MONEY ever left the bank to PAY Sears.

The next thing I know I get a bill from VISA for $100. For what? I’ve already ‘paid’ – at least to the extent of my ability. Public Policy has dictated that this is all I can do. How do you want to ‘pay’ for goods which are already yours? Via working forty hours a week? Or via your signature, thereby giving them your tax exemption?"

[Average Joe]

"If you want to play the game and pay back money that they never lent you"...:lmao: Come on man.

You get a loan off a bank, its in your account, they lent you it! You owe it! Its money that you never had before you signed the form!

On another note, I'm increasingly disappointed at the "blame culture" that has sprung up in the last 10-20 years, and that blame culture is alive and kicking on this forum.

Its never our fault, always somebody elses. Its the banks fault that some people are drowning in debt, you fall over and cut your knee its somebody elses fault, you over eat and get fat or ill its somebody elses fault. Its never my fault or your fault though is it?

Why can people no longer take responsibility for their own actions? "Oh its not my fault I'm in debt - its the banks fault, and anyways they never really lent me the money in the first place! - so I shouldn't have to pay it back"

Truth be told it makes me sick.

How are we supposed to move forward as a population if nobody can take responsibility for their own actions, if people are looking for immoral ways out of debt and so on? What about other areas that we talk about?

Fact is if the SHTF and we've actually managed to build communities, how likely is it that these communities are full of not highly tuned, loving, giving people, but "Average Joe's" who will take no reponsibilty in the community, blame everybody else in the community when things go wrong, and given half a chance will stab you in the back?

Hell, a lot of us have a looooong way to go in personal development, and dodging agreed debt will set us back.

[Truther21]

well all take our responsibility when they quit screwing everyone. No one has any money to pay it back with cuz the jobs suck and you 2 know it. We all dont work for the CIA. If I have a choice and I do, then the tables are turning. Debt is your game not mine.

Bring back all the jobs oh smart ones, make all this NWO stuff go away.

Peace out

[Truther21]

:sleep_1:

[MMe M]

Money is created from nothing. Zilch. Zero.


You are doomed to fail no matter your lifestyle when the lenders are in charge of the economy. What you could once afford with a little belt tightening is now beyond your income by large sums. Incomes have decreased and at best stagnated for twenty plus years in this country. You must eat, have transportation to work and live, shelter and clothing. If your income does not keep up with the cost of shelter, food, clothing and transportations costs you cannot maintain even a very frugal lifestyle without credit. The lenders know this. The money exchangers are in the house so you will be in debt till they are removed from power. It is that simple.

Many of you are pious and self rightous and say if you had only went without as I have you would not be in debt. If you werent so lazy you could work as I did to stay out of debt. If you didnt self indulge so often you wouldnt be in this mess. To those of you that go on and on in this vein, I say to you "Beware the words you spew today for you will live to see the others side in the most extreme example that can be visited upon you". This is quite simply the laws of fate and you asking for an abject lesson in humility to add insult to injury. The system is designed for many to fail and few to prosper. We are none of us indulgant in anything save survival currently. Many of us homeless or soon to be. How much more must we do without?

[Baggywrinkle]

simple.Money is created from nothing. Zilch. Zero.




Many of you are pious and self rightous and say if you had only went without as I have you would not be in debt. If you werent so lazy you could work as I did to stay out of debt. If you didnt self indulge so often you wouldnt be in this mess. To those of you that go on and on in this vein, I say to you "Beware the words you spew today for you will live to see the others side in the most extreme example that can be visited upon you". This is quite simply the laws of fate and you asking for an abject lesson in humility to add insult to injury. The system is designed for many to fail and few to prosper. We are none of us indulgant in anything save survival currently. Many of us homeless or soon to be. How much more must we do without?

You say that like it's a bad thing. Righteousness is the wellspring that gives you the power to move
mountains. No man, no system, and no government can stand against you when you move with the
conviction of righteousness. The problem right now is, you aren't mad enough.

When you got nothin, you got nothin to lose. If you are prepared to bleed, if you are prepared to die,
then ready your sauce pans for battle and bring them down. I will meet you there. Together we shall
speak truth to power.

HOOAH HOOAH!

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0gwTa5JdeZ8OB/610x.jpg


You have forgotten the symbolism and the power that resides here
http://www.shroomliberationfront.com/Images/modified%20in%20fireworks/phrygian.gif
You no longer know what it is let alone what it means or why it is important. You don't know why this symbol adorns the emblem of your military and the seal of the U.S. Senate.

When you are angry enough with the conviction of righteousness to once again don the bonnet rouge contact me
and we shall have a tea party.

[MMe M]

[QUOTE=Baggywrinkle;76268]Then prepare your sauce pans for battle and bring them down


You are not in any position to disagree being that you use money. You know where you can put your sauce pans. I dont even know where your comments are coming from or what your intention is with that picture but if that is supposed to be some sexist commentary focused at me regarding the truth about the money lenders and this society we live in, then you can just shove your visuals along with any other utensils up your haystack! You are out there to be certain. For one, taking an Amish persons picture is creating a graven image, a bigtime no no in their religion, for another you live in the city but go on and on about primitive ways and means.

You presume to know what I have lost or not. You have no idea, nor sense enough to know the difference.

[MMe M]

I am not French this go round, had a public school education and had to look up the red bonnet rouge. Fer chrizs sake. What does that have to do with pots and pans?

Its a wise child as kens it own father, fold and press.

Id host the tea party but I havent lost enough yet. Maybe next month. January for sure.

[Baggywrinkle]

.

[MMe M]

[QUOTE=MMe M;76271]

I love you, and I honor and respect you enough to challenge you to remember your heritage.

We are Quakers, with strong Anabaptist leanings. As a seeker I do not yet have the conviction to take
the Dordrecht confession. That makes me a fighting quaker. Smedley Butler is a hero of mine.

Now go and do your homework, to see what those images really mean.

With loving intent

-d-

okey dokey. Ill go look.

You just cant judge those that appear as though they arent careful and are seemingly wanting to shirk their responsibilities. Those that do will pay with their own lessons to be learned. Goodness knows I must have had more money than my share in a previous incarnation to be on this end of the stick this go round. Some are less fortunant than others and its duced hard to budget what isnt in existance. Its just a trap set by others.

There but for the grace of the Gods go I. Thats the ideal I try to live by.

Love to you too, Baggs

[Average Joe]

well all take our responsibility when they quit screwing everyone.

Course you will. Why don't I believe this?

All I've been saying is that two wrongs don't make a right.

[peacelovinman]

Course you will. Why don't I believe this?

All I've been saying is that two wrongs don't make a right.

You know, I can really empathise with Av Joe's point. No-one forces us to borrow money in excess of our means. However, for most of us it is a necessary evil, particularly where property is concerned. I was taught the principles of living within my means and all the rest that goes along with it but I am prepared to accept that my behaviour and attitudes have been conditioned to a certain extent.

I believe there is much evidence that our monetary system is corrupt and is manipulated by the central banks to achieve social change and profit. There is also ample evidence that our currency is backed by nothing except our own confidence in it's ability to be accepted as a means of exchange.

However, recently much information has been put in the public domain regarding the actual mechanics of money creation. For instance, there is the arguement that all money is actually debt, borrowed into existence by our governments, backed by government bonds which are in turn backed by...what? The resources of a country? The population's labour? Some assert that our birth certificates are floated as bonds...Some assert that the money that accrues from this is put into trust as our share of the national wealth. Governments then borrow against these bonds.

What is the truth?

Does it matter?

The system is clearly corrupt, outdated, unworkable and unsustainable. It is my opinion that these credit card agreements are unenforceable because of what I have said above. Because nothing of value is involved - only movement of debt (money being a debt instrument, not an instrument of value).

If people challenging these agreements hastens the end of the monetary system and gets us all thinking about new ways to order our lives, then I for one shall be glad.

[Mike_Jetson]

edit - Im just reading all the other posts after the ones quoted below. If i did i wouldnt have had to write so much as others have started explaining it a bit too, with links :D

Im going to enjoy this post as I will be sharing information that is not easy to come across. Firstly, baggywrinkle and Avg joe, and anyone who is still arguing about energy and what not, I will not be explaining this again as if you read my words correctly in this read you would understand by now. I will edit the people im quoting to highlight the most important points i agree with.



Some years ago I managed to get myself out of all personal debt

3) Because I DETEST the immoral banking system.

This money is backed by nothing of worth - it is "fiat" currency.

I suggest you read "Spiritual Economics: How I Clobbered Every Bureaucratic Cash-Confiscatory Agency Known To Man" by Mary Elizabeth: Croft. You can download it for free from various places on the net.

If I spend $ 10,000 on my credit card, who has actually loaned me the money? No-one! It's just credit that has been created by my signature.

Lastly, a question for Mike. I quite like the sound of the Liberty Wealth Club but I have fallen victim to some of these network marketing scams before.

Does the club offer something of real value or does it just teach people a "system" whereby you get paid for recruiting people into the system?

Does it provide worthwhile financial information to their members in return for a fee, with those members that recommend others to join being paid a small commission or residual on their subscription (nothing wrong with that in my book)...

or...

Do they simply show you how to make money by recruiting people into the system who, in order to make money, have to recruit others with no actual worthwhile service or product being offered (a con, in my book)?

Excellent questions. Firstly, Mary Croft. This is almost mandatory reading for LWC members. This is exactly what we are about and we are active in practicing what she preaches. If anyone wants a copy emailing just ask me. I have a new version which has all the same info but has been organised in a much better way to get through quicker. Its just better :)

Pyramid schemes, also known as cash gifting schemes only make people money by recruiting others into it, there is no other way of explaining it, this is why they are ILLEGAL. Anyone watching Watchdog in the UK last night would have seen ex-Apprentice girl (black girl cant remember her name) getting lynched by the BBC for holding a 'networking meeting' of ladies where they pay £1000 to join and advance up alevel when they have recruited 8 themselves before paying £3000 to the next level. There is no product, people at the bottom who fail to get anyone involved will have lost their £1000 and have nothing whatsoever to show for it. Pyramid schemes use the positive side of multi level marketing and network marketing to make the ambitious folk a lot of money while people who cant lie have trouble promoting it. Ive seen many before and am thankful ive never lost out to any before.

This is also why we get this question a lot because people are wary of anything that rewards you for getting more people involved.

We at Liberty Wealth put honesty, integrity, truth and freedom before everything else. We never ever sell anything. We simple show folk what is available and wait for them to say they are in. Put it this way. At the very first step, we have a package known as Foundation of Freedom, its an investment of £650. We can easily give this information away for free (as helping people help themselves is our 'goal' and becoming service to others is the ultimate reward) but you need an incentive to put our knowledge into practice rather than having it sitting on a shelf while you are a slave to monthly pay day. To non members this is £1250. Its obvious that joining the club at the same time as investing in the package is better than investing twice as much without joining.

Here is part of what the Foundations of Freedom is about (more but i cant remember whilsy typing):-

* Credit Cancellation & Remedy
* Building Blocks of Freedom
* Our Economic Heritage
* Conditioning of Man & The World
* The Gold Standard
* Asset Protection
* Offshore Havens
* Government & Economic History
* Law & Taxes
* Present Day Strategies
* Future Seminars - What to Expect

Initially its amazing and just gets better. Cash gifting/pyramid schemes simply dont have worthwhile products. We dont even ask that people recruit others. Some of our members make the initial investment and are gone forever or maybe go to a seminar for advanced teaching then go off and make their own money outside the club, or spend months studying our material and researching related stuff on their own before deciding to make money from helping more folk get free. Usually the ones that have cancelled their unsecured credit are keen to spread the word. Put it this way, without real worth, youd be reluctant to get friends and family involved because if its false promises then youve lost more than their trust. I have trouble keeping this in when I meet new people. I try so hard but when people say "so what do you do" I can only pretend that Im a property developer for so long. Probably because im barely spending any time with renovation right now.

You can study the main site. My splash page is now online at
http://www.freedomandwealth.co.uk You can enter your email for regular info and free products such as Marys book etc. My tel numbers, skype etc are all on there and Im happy to answer questions any time.

But going back to original thread idea. This is different to us. We dont exploit legal loopholes. We simply expose where real laws have been broken by banks for many years and use the power of the law to play their game.


But that does not address the exchange of energy
No one wants to talk about that aspect
It took labor and materials to build that television. You need to come up with an equivalent amount of energy or goods to compensate the builders for their effort. Or you need to build your own television.



This is how 'the system' works. Its actually how a secured credit facility works. You deposit an asset and the bank agrees to give it value and gives you 'money'. Your asset doesnt have to be what we call 'cash' You could pay in a gold watch for example. When you the 'money' back you get your assset back.

Fast forward to banking fraud. Your application form with signature (loan or card) is then stamped on the reverse with a value. Just like a note would be stamped and attached to your gold watch with the amount of 'money' of value attached to it. Instead of the gold watch which has value, the bank use your 'promise to pay' which is in fact the application form and assign a value to this. This value could be any number. They usually decide on a value based on risk of you not paying. The risk is not their risk of losing money. The risk is the risk of you simply not being able to pay your alleged 'debt'.

Now that your application has been converted into an asset, this asset is paid into a deposit account. When you buy something in a store, the retailer keeps the receipt (bill of exchange / promise to pay). This is then paid into a bank minus a fee and the retailer gets 'money' so this widescreen TV you talk about has been paid for. Energy allocated. The bank sells the bill to Visa/Mcard minus a small fee and Visa/Mcard sell it back to your credit card company/bank minus a small fee. So in effect, your asset has been exchanged for goods but a few banks have acted as middlemen along the way making money from it.

Best bit. You get a statement in the post asking you for the full value. You pay for the item again, plus any interest if you dont pay immediately.

Ask yourself, why do credit cards have no fee any more and good payers are seen to use the service for free and cost the bank money? Its not because they are hoping you suddenly stop paying or are making too much money from non fast payers to care. They are making money from every single transaction.

Imagine if you started making fake money, youd be in jail if caught. This is why the law can work for us because it has been broken by them. It just takes time and some studying and thankfully having a lot of people on hand with the same goal helps.

Im done :)

[Baggywrinkle]

Regarding using the law to your benefit.

Credit cards have three income streams.

They get paid at the point of purchase by the vendor
They make money from the various fees.
They make money from interest on outstanding balances.

We have eliminated the second two streams for over a year now by taking advantage of the grace period. In effect, we cut ourselves an interest free loan which we use to earn interest in our HELOC. We purchase EVERYTHING on credit card. I have not carried cash in years. The money needed to pay off the balance at the end of the grace period remains in the HELOC (or in an interest bearing checking account) until the last possible day before default. We are using the HELOC to pay off our mortgage. By leaving the credit card money in the HELOC we earn "negative interest" that we will not have to pay at a rate currently of five percent. When we started it was eight percent. Payments are done electronically to allow the money to work for us until the last possible moment. Since our HELOC and our credit cards are with the same bank that is the date due.
Transfers in house take one day.

The electronic transfer is also important out of house. By law it must occur in the U.S within three days. This circumvents the hold used by banks to to make interest on your payment while it "clears" the bank.

A last way to use their own regulations against them is the rewards card. Cash rewards using this system build up. My son makes 900 dollars extra by doing business in this way. He has a second card that collects travel points, using it for one or two free trips every year.

That is too fancy for my blood. We are totally focused on being mortgage free in seven years or less shaving twenty three years off a thirty year mortgage and saving over seventy thousand fiat dollars in interest not paid.

[Mike_Jetson]

"If you want to play the game and pay back money that they never lent you"...:lmao: Come on man.

You get a loan off a bank, its in your account, they lent you it! You owe it! Its money that you never had before you signed the form!

On another note, I'm increasingly disappointed at the "blame culture" that has sprung up in the last 10-20 years, and that blame culture is alive and kicking on this forum.
.

How many more times will you miss the point entirely even after more than 2 members have explained to you how it works? Apologies for being so abrupt.

"You get a loan off a bank" - This alone doesnt even happen. Its like me pissng on you and telling you its raining. Or stealing your wife and inviting you to the engagement party. Read Mary Croft! :D and my post above

[Mike_Jetson]

Regarding using the law to your benefit.

Credit cards have three income streams.

They get paid at the point of purchase by the vendor
They make money from the various fees.
They make money from interest on outstanding balances.

We have eliminated the second two streams for over a year now by taking advantage of the grace period. In effect, we cut ourselves an interest free loan which we use to earn interest in our HELOC. We purchase EVERYTHING on credit card. I have not carried cash in years. The money needed to pay off the balance at the end of the grace period remains in the HELOC (or in an interest bearing checking account) until the last possible day before default. We are using the HELOC to pay off our mortgage. By leaving the credit card money in the HELOC we earn "negative interest" that we will not have to pay at a rate currently of five percent. When we started it was eight percent. Payments are done electronically to allow the money to work for us until the last possible moment. Since our HELOC and our credit cards are with the same bank that is the date due.
Transfers in house take one day.

The electronic transfer is also important out of house. By law it must occur in the U.S within three days. This circumvents the hold used by banks to to make interest on your payment while it "clears" the bank.

A last way to use their own regulations against them is the rewards card. Cash rewards using this system build up. My son makes 900 dollars extra by doing business in this way. He has a second card that collects travel points, using it for one or two free trips every year.

That is too fancy for my blood. We are totally focused on being mortgage free in seven years or less shaving twenty three years off a thirty year mortgage and saving over seventy thousand fiat dollars in interest not paid.

Exactly

But if you think those 3 income streams are the only ones you simply have not seen the one they hold on to in the back room :)

To believe a blood sucking evil bank would let folk take money away from them in way of cashback and rewards is naive. But most people who work this system believe. I did until I learned the truth.

We have a lender or two over here in the UK that lets you reduce your mortgage interest and amount oweing with cash you have with them saved and deposited. Your HELOC is almost the same as our 'One account'

[Average Joe]

How many more times will you miss the point entirely even after more than 2 members have explained to you how it works? Apologies for being so abrupt.

"You get a loan off a bank" - This alone doesnt even happen. Its like me pissng on you and telling you its raining. Or stealing your wife and inviting you to the engagement party. Read Mary Croft! :D and my post above

Apologies for being even blunter, but how many times will you miss my point? We could do this all day. Actually no we couldn't, because I give up.

So, £650 or £1,250 of your hard earned to cancel your debts eh? And can you guarantee to get out of ALL debts? I bet you can't.

£650 or £1,250 you have to pay for the privelidge of ripping your creditors off?

Splendid.

I'm done here.

[Mike_Jetson]

Apologies for being even blunter, but how many times will you miss my point? We could do this all day. Actually no we couldn't, because I give up.

So, £650 or £1,250 of your hard earned to cancel your debts eh? And can you guarantee to get out of ALL debts? I bet you can't.

£650 or £1,250 you have to pay for the privelidge of ripping your creditors off?

Splendid.

I'm done here.

Ha hell no. You still believe they are loosing something dont you?

Like I said, in no way at all is our club a debt cancellation service. Its a flow blown financial education programme and then some. Millionaires dont even have a clue about half of what we teach.

In fact just to prove a point id be happy to spend time writing letters backwards and forwards for you just to show you how the banks are acting outside of the law and how we act inside of the law when challenging them.

I know we cant do this as you have no debt. Im not selling anything, it just so happens that I saw this thread and dont like seeing people advertise themselves for getting rid of 70 percent of folks debt because of legal 'loopholes' and errors in the agreement etc. Its just not what we do. We go much deeper and ethics and honesty are too important for us.

Oh and in this world there are no guarantees and I make no promises but if one of own friends or family get into financial trouble and are pretty guaranteed to default then I will help them out with what I know. Corruption is everywhere as you know. The judges are involved too but they cant bend their own rules too much or else they get exposed so we have to bery careful when we play their game.

[peacelovinman]

Apologies for being even blunter, but how many times will you miss my point? We could do this all day. Actually no we couldn't, because I give up.

So, £650 or £1,250 of your hard earned to cancel your debts eh? And can you guarantee to get out of ALL debts? I bet you can't.

£650 or £1,250 you have to pay for the privelidge of ripping your creditors off?

Splendid.

I'm done here.

They are not your creditors, that is the point. They cannot show you the accounting to that effect, that is the point. You are making no effort to research the matter fully, simply relying on what you think to be true.

This is what keeps the human race in bondage, a complete inability to challenge established thought patterns and ways of doing things. I am reminded of the Wright Brothers and the fact nobody would take them seriously when they said they had built a flying machine; nobody would even take a look for years. After all, nothing heavier than air would fly, or so they thought at the time...

[Gnosis5]

i have decided to that this is the best option to clear my credit card, they have told me i will be able to stop paying in a couple of weeks as i will be in dispute with the bank.

does this work in canada?

[Gnosis5]

Nobody has lost 10 grand. Here:-

"First you must understand that in our money system there are no funds because there is technically, no money. There is only debt and debt instruments that are used in place of money. They used your name to create a trust with themselves named as trustees, and they have used that trust as collateral on the national debt. That collateralization is in an asset account for the trust after it was monetized on the world money market. The process #3 establishes YOUR right as the trustor and takes that trust back under your control. Under your control you can transfer trust assets to the trust debt account, thereby discharging the debt.

You next must understand that the debt is not yours personally. You have, since you began doing money transactions, functioned as a voluntary fiduciary representative for that trust account, paying its bills with your own phony money. When you set up your first checking account, you accepted this relationship with the trust the government had set up in your name. You have not had control of this trust because you never claimed it and your parents could not control it for you because they were wards of the State like you. "

Research Fractional Reserve Banking. Banks at one point could lend £9 for every £1 they took on deposit. The problem is, when that £9 is paid back into the bank, the banks decides to multiply it by £9 again. In one step all this money has appeared from £1

The only reason we hit crisis this time around was a lack of confidence among banks. If they has stuck to the fractional reserve banking ratio then it wouldnt matter so much when debtors had trouble paying. They would hold enough cash on deposit to cover it. Not if they have unlawfully bypassed the system and created way too much 'money' from fresh air.

This is not about a loophole. Its about the law being broken by the creators of debt

Money only works if people have trust and confidence and that is disappearing. There goes the great god of materialism.

[Gnosis5]

Back in Canada I had occasion to help a friend through debt crisis... one case went to court...

When the Judge came in he made a little speech. He told the creditors not to expect sympathy from the court...

His reason? The creditor obviously made the loan easy to get without checking to see if the person had the ability to repay... Credit companies make it so easy to get in on purpose...

The courts do NOT favor the guy wanting his money back. This is why most companies will easily settle for 50% of the original.

Also a court will never collect accrued interest... only the initial debt will be considered...

Obviously saying "STOP BUYING ON CREDIT" comes to mind... but that is not the reality of todays market. If we stopped doing that tomorrow, the financial world would indeed crumble over night

Not paying back your debt does not hurt the company, as they can write off the entire amount from their taxes... so only the tax man gets hurt...

And I doubt many will sympathize with him :tongue2:

THEY set up this debt system, not us... WE are made victims not by choice...

For the few who can break away... congratulations :thumb_yello: but the rest do not know how...


Mortgage... instead of that shopping spree, put 100.00 extra a month on the principal... (or more if you can) In a short time you will not miss that 100.00 as it becomes routine...

Another idea.... (we do this) make 100 envelopes... mark them 1 to 100...
Now any extra cash you get... say a yard sale, a little side job or money you feel you can set a side... start filling the envelopes... $1,000.00 each

As soon as one is full... put it on the principal... because if you leave it around the house you will spend it :tongue2:

As long as you make a conscious effort you will be amazed at how your mortgage shrinks :thumb_yello:

Past Debt... I do not know if this works out side Canada or the USA... but there is a law that allows you to contact the credit bureaus and get your report Here in the US we have three main ones...

As soon as you get the lists... WRITE A PROTEST on every item on the list...

By law the credit bureau now is obligated to verify the debt. They do this by contacting the original debtor and requesting confirmation of the debt...

The debtor has 30 (maybe 60) days to respond. IF THEY DO NOT RESPOND then the credit reporting agency MUST remove it from your credit history

When we bought our house... the finance company we used did this for us. Like the OP stated 70% of them literally vanished, the rest all settled for 50%

Here is what happens...

Company A you owe 500.00 or less... after one year of no activity they sell off the account to a collection agency for a percentage of the debt.

At this point they have written you off literally on their taxes. The collection agency takes a gamble that they can harass you into paying... In most cases it works... or they would not be in business :tongue2:

After a year this agency sells it to another agency, again at a percentage... the lower down the food chain the nastier they get :lol3:

So if you protest and the ORIGINAL debtor has washed his hands of it and already processed it in the books... it comes off you credit report...

Also if there has been no activity on a debt, after 4 years it is removed and no longer collectible. Though be aware that some can still check back 7 years... but no longer...

As they say "Time heals many wounds"

Now I am not showing you this so you can go out and do something stupid, but to show those that are in serious debt a way out. It takes diligence and effort but you don't need to pay someone to do this. A credit report is free on yourself (3 or 4 times a year I believe)

Countrywide mortgage helped us this way, and I am sure other realtors do the same for their clients.


Next installment... Once you cleaned up your past, how to build it up again...

:wink2:


Pardon me, but if it goes to court and the judge says you owe the money then the creditor will garnish your wages, will he not?

[Mike_Jetson]

Yes this 'works' in Canada. Its all based on the same type of law. In fact Id say its easier in the US too than here in the UK

The judge knows exactly what is going on which is why you cant just turn up and say they created money from air so you dont owe it, its much more complicated and you need to understand exactly when you are contracting with someone and when you are not, etc

If the judge finds in their favour then youve messed up somewhere. The judge can only bend his own rules so much because depending on what you do and say he wont be able to do it because he is lmited by his own laws.

[peacelovinman]

Yes this 'works' in Canada. Its all based on the same type of law. In fact Id say its easier in the US too than here in the UK

The judge knows exactly what is going on which is why you cant just turn up and say they created money from air so you dont owe it, its much more complicated and you need to understand exactly when you are contracting with someone and when you are not, etc

If the judge finds in their favour then youve messed up somewhere. The judge can only bend his own rules so much because depending on what you do and say he wont be able to do it because he is lmited by his own laws.


From what I have learnt, you need to know the process in exact detail if you are going to challenge credit agreements, let alone go to court.

Once you step into a courtroom, you are in "their" domain. If you do not know how to handle yourself and have not educated yourself as to the language they use ("legalese"), you will get no-where.

Much information is to be found at www.thinkfree.ca.

[Mike_Jetson]

From what I have learnt, you need to know the process in exact detail if you are going to challenge credit agreements, let alone go to court.

Once you step into a courtroom, you are in "their" domain. If you do not know how to handle yourself and have not educated yourself as to the language they use ("legalese"), you will get no-where.

Much information is to be found at www.thinkfree.ca.

Im ready to rock n roll.

Conditional Acceptance is a nice way of 'discussing' in court

[peacelovinman]

To anybody who still accepts that "money" has some kind of value, even heads of banks in court admit that, in the case of a mortgage, the money DOES NOT EXIST until a mortgage is created and a promise to pay it back is obtained.

This landmark case has been supressed; read all about it here:


http://ezinearticles.com/?Is-it-Possible-All-Mortgage-Contracts-Are-Void-and-Foreclosures-are-Invalid?&id=1069976

[Baggywrinkle]

To anybody who still accepts that "money" has some kind of value

http://ezinearticles.com/?Is-it-Possible-All-Mortgage-Contracts-Are-Void-and-Foreclosures-are-Invalid?&id=1069976

They pretend to pay us so we pretend to work....

Sorry couldn't resist


Ahh yes, the credit river decision.

While you are at it, don't forget the ongoing Robert Kahre tax fraud case.
http://suzieqq.wordpress.com/2007/10/05/exposed-the-us-federal-income-tax-is-a-fraud/

Robert paid his employees in junk silver coins at face value. The employees
would then exchange the coins for the spot rate of silver. IRS called foul.
It resulted in a hung jury. The case is ongoing.

It would seem to come down to who has the biggest guns.

Sherry Peale Jackson (show me the law) was convicted (framed)

[Mike_Jetson]

They pretend to pay us so we pretend to work....

Sorry couldn't resist


Ahh yes, the credit river decision.

While you are at it, don't forget the ongoing Robert Kahre tax fraud case.
http://suzieqq.wordpress.com/2007/10/05/exposed-the-us-federal-income-tax-is-a-fraud/

Robert paid his employees in junk silver coins at face value. The employees
would then exchange the coins for the spot rate of silver. IRS called foul.
It resulted in a hung jury. The case is ongoing.

It would seem to come down to who has the biggest guns.

Sherry Peale Jackson (show me the law) was convicted (framed)

Thats true

Its a game and we are approaching the 85th minute(soccer/football) and are 3 goals down but the players have just realised the ref has been paid so are trying to get the game cancelled before the final whistle blows. We cannot possibly 'win' we can only prevent ourselves from losing until the game is destroyed and a fair game is created.

[pilot]

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned - sorry if it has but there is an excellent video called "money as debt" on google, everyone who hasn't seen it should-it explains fractional reserve banking and how the money is created out of thin air...it's really not about morals when it comes to banks people. The banks exist to enslave us, period. C'mon yall.

If I borrow $500 from a friend, you bet I am morally responsible for paying it back - my friend doesn't charge interest and use that $500 to tell other people she has $5,000 to lend out, at interest. This is what banks do continuously.

If the game is rigged and the creators of the game cheat, how is it that minor players are required to play by the rules the cheaters set up to give themselves the advantage??

What some of you have been saying essentially is that the game is rigged, yeah, but we play so we have to play by the rules, even though the creators of the game cheat. Hm.

Why?

Watch that movie, it really nails it.

[Mike_Jetson]

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned - sorry if it has but there is an excellent video called "money as debt" on google, everyone who hasn't seen it should-it explains fractional reserve banking and how the money is created out of thin air...it's really not about morals when it comes to banks people. The banks exist to enslave us, period. C'mon yall.

If I borrow $500 from a friend, you bet I am morally responsible for paying it back - my friend doesn't charge interest and use that $500 to tell other people she has $5,000 to lend out, at interest. This is what banks do continuously.

If the game is rigged and the creators of the game cheat, how is it that minor players are required to play by the rules the cheaters set up to give themselves the advantage??

What some of you have been saying essentially is that the game is rigged, yeah, but we play so we have to play by the rules, even though the creators of the game cheat. Hm.

Why?

Watch that movie, it really nails it.

Even the people here who are against debt elimination are fully aware of fractional reseve banking and thin air money creation, which is why we had to bring detail in about the actual accounting. Fractional reserve banking is technically legal but the way debt is created by arguably fraudulent accounting is not. It is a great vid though, nice cartoons :)

[pilot]

Another good video to watch :

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-9016886482738598023

"In Debt We Trust"

This goes into more detail about how credit is used as a weapon, actually. I think this might be what you are talking about Mike, more in depth into banking practices...talk about immoral!!

We are here to broaden our perspectives and gain knowledge, so I hope the folks who are ready to dismiss debt elimination would be willing to at least take a look and get all the facts before they presume it is wrong to do so.

Conditioning is deep and pervasive, and it is done to benefit the few to the detriment of the many. I personally don't think our current system is "moral".

If it's true that international banking cartels engineer crisis and lack, well then it's clear we are not obliged to keep a corrupt system afloat.

[peacelovinman]

Another good video to watch :

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-9016886482738598023

"In Debt We Trust"

This goes into more detail about how credit is used as a weapon, actually. I think this might be what you are talking about Mike, more in depth into banking practices...talk about immoral!!

We are here to broaden our perspectives and gain knowledge, so I hope the folks who are ready to dismiss debt elimination would be willing to at least take a look and get all the facts before they presume it is wrong to do so.

Conditioning is deep and pervasive, and it is done to benefit the few to the detriment of the many. I personally don't think our current system is "moral".

If it's true that international banking cartels engineer crisis and lack, well then it's clear we are not obliged to keep a corrupt system afloat.

This is a good point. I am continually surprised to find closed minds on forums like this.

Our only recourse is to leave the system entirely and declare "lawful rebellion". This is something I am looking into closely.

[Mike_Jetson]

Peaceful non violent non compliance is probably the best way that works for our whole movement not just banking.

This is a problem for many reasons financially even if you only have a few thousand to take care of or you are relatively well off. If you leave the banks and go cash only then you risk getting burgled or worrying more about having so much cash at home or on you. Paying higher utilities and other services that reward folk for direct debit and other forms of direct digital payment. Wages that need paying into a bank is another. There are many. It comes back to being self sufficient for me again.

Thankfully (and this is not an advert) but myself and the club do get taught by experts similar to some Camelot interviewees about how to fully protect our assets, especially offshore and other options which become especially necessary the more wealth you have. Its when you come to try and help friends and family that they wont really consider giving up as much banking as possible. I mean even I cant see myself doing it any time soon but as for everything else, non complicance will be the way this revolution goes down hopefully

[TAXMASTER]

you all can call it what you want, play semantics all day but if you get (take) something for nothing it is not morally correct on any level.

if you "buy" a house from your friend and do not pay him, you got a house for nothing and your friend loses the value of the house. i think we all will agree that this is wrong.

if you "buy" a house off of your friend and pay for it with a mortgage loan that you do not pay back then you got a house for nothing. who suffers.....everybody who has or deals in currency. because the bank increased the money supply to loan you the money to buy the house and you do not return that money back to the bank then the existing money supply is watered down and worth less.

anyone who truly understands the videos that you all use as evidence to your case knows this. while it is clear in the first instance that you have screwed your friend and received a free house, it is also equally clear that in the second scenerio that you have screwed everyone else and received a free house.

as money supply increases, inflation ncreases and money becomes less valuable. by paying the bank back, you are taking that money back out of circulation and you stablize the value of money.

your theory doesn't hold water, isn't right, and if the banks and credit card companies are shysters, then don't borrow the money. save your money and pay cash for it like people did in the old days. 2 wrongs never made a right.

Namaste'

[pilot]

I closed my checking account about one month ago. I go to the bank that checks I receive are drawn on to cash them, and pay utilities, etc in person. This is possible for me because I live in a small town, but I remember in NYC, if you did not have a bank account, banks refuse to cash checks---so one had to rely on check cashing spots that charge a fee.

I have to give my FINGERPRINT to cash checks on occasion even here...very troubling.

I just watched In "Debt We Trust" again and I urge everyone to take a look if they have not seen it. If after that you still must take the side of BANKS over CITIZENS...:wall:

I am all for personal responsibility-no question. If you can't afford something-do without until you can, period.

But no matter what, I will not agree predatory lending should be allowed so a few can rape the poor.

[peacelovinman]

you all can call it what you want, play semantics all day but if you get (take) something for nothing it is not morally correct on any level.

if you "buy" a house from your friend and do not pay him, you got a house for nothing and your friend loses the value of the house. i think we all will agree that this is wrong.

if you "buy" a house off of your friend and pay for it with a mortgage loan that you do not pay back then you got a house for nothing. who suffers.....everybody who has or deals in currency. because the bank increased the money supply to loan you the money to buy the house and you do not return that money back to the bank then the existing money supply is watered down and worth less.

anyone who truly understands the videos that you all use as evidence to your case knows this. while it is clear in the first instance that you have screwed your friend and received a free house, it is also equally clear that in the second scenerio that you have screwed everyone else and received a free house.

as money supply increases, inflation ncreases and money becomes less valuable. by paying the bank back, you are taking that money back out of circulation and you stablize the value of money.

your theory doesn't hold water, isn't right, and if the banks and credit card companies are shysters, then don't borrow the money. save your money and pay cash for it like people did in the old days. 2 wrongs never made a right.

Namaste'

The banks ARE shysters and the money has NO VALUE. The Corporations called UNITED STATES, UNITED KINGDOM etc are BANKRUPT. The money you talk about merely says "I promise to pay...". It is a promissory note.

You need to go the hard yards and do some research, as others on this thread have been saying.

No-one is talking about borrowing anything of value from friends. If you believe banks and governments are your "friends", you are in big trouble, in my humble opinion.

[Mike_Jetson]

you all can call it what you want, play semantics all day but if you get (take) something for nothing it is not morally correct on any level.

Normally I would agree. Getting something for nothing is possible in many scenarios and morals wouldnt even come into.


if you "buy" a house from your friend and do not pay him, you got a house for nothing and your friend loses the value of the house. i think we all will agree that this is wrong.


I dont even know how you see this scenario at all. And why some of you bring borrowing from friends into this is beyond me. We are fighting evil here. Its not like we are fighting fire with fire. We are fighting evil with the TRUTH. And most of us are not even talking about mortgages anyway.


if you "buy" a house off of your friend and pay for it with a mortgage loan that you do not pay back then you got a house for nothing.

The friend again. The friend has his money and it doesnt matter whether he is a friend or a stranger. What you do after buying a house wont affect the seller at all.


who suffers.....everybody who has or deals in currency. because the bank increased the money supply to loan you the money to buy the house and you do not return that money back to the bank then the existing money supply is watered down and worth less.

Im not the best person to understand the ins and outs of money supply and its affects in inflation and the value or currency however this statement doesnt make sense to me.

For starters, the bank didnt increase the money supply to 'loan' us the money. They FRAUDULENTY used our paper promise and broke the law where the accounting is concerned. If you are happy to take part in unlawful fraudulent activity then stay quiet about it. This goes way beyond the negative side of fractional reserve banking.

Now you say that if we dont pay the money back then the money supply will be watered down and it would be worth less. Sorry I dont really get it. Maybe someone who shares this view can have a good at this in detail as I cant see how this could happen. When you pay back some money to a bank this adds to their deposits and even if they used the more conservative fractional reserve accounting this deposit is multiplied by 9 and someone else borrows it creating yet even more money and surely this devalues the currency. Simply by not paying it back this would mean the bank has one less payment to multiply by 9. And this is conservative estimates on my part.


anyone who truly understands the videos that you all use as evidence to your case knows this. while it is clear in the first instance that you have screwed your friend and received a free house, it is also equally clear that in the second scenerio that you have screwed everyone else and received a free house.

Nonsense. Sorry. Just my opinion.


as money supply increases, inflation ncreases and money becomes less valuable. by paying the bank back, you are taking that money back out of circulation and you stablize the value of money.

So using fractional reserve banking, which they all do at different levels, doesnt increase the money supply and devalue currency? Im pretty sure it does.

By paying it back it doesnt get removed from circulation. Am I wrong? Someone please tell me.


your theory doesn't hold water, isn't right, and if the banks and credit card companies are shysters, then don't borrow the money. save your money and pay cash for it like people did in the old days. 2 wrongs never made a right.

If I dont borrow another penny I will help as many people as possible get out of debt my any means possible. AND I will use the laws that were made to protect us to expose the laws broken to control us.

What we are doing is not wrong, it is not a legal loophole. We are drawing the curtains back and exposing the laws which have been broken. Read that sentence again please.

You said "if the banks and credit card companies are shysters, then don't borrow the money" I know im twisting this a bit far but I could say "If the man who lives at the end of the street is a murderer, then simply make sure you dont go near him"......or

"Your next door neighbour has been mugging half the people in the street when they come home" so the best way is to look out for him and not worry about everyone else getting done over.

Its time to step up. Youre advocating doing nothing.

"all that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing"

[TAXMASTER]

the point is mike, if it is a fraudulent system, then do not participate in it at all. don't use money, don't trade labor for money, don't borrow money. i used these analogies to illustrate the concepts at it's simplest way. forget the friend the bank the house, these were tools to show you that you think it is ok to get something for nothing.

people such as yourself can twist it any way you want to as long as you get goods and services for nothing. you get a charge card and go to the store and buy a sweater and charge it. you now have a sweater that you did not have. you then claim that the credit card company is ripping you off with tremendous rates so that is your reason for not paying them. you are no different from someone that goes into the store and steals the sweater. in both instances, you got the sweater for nothing. at least when you stole the sweater you were up front about it. when you agreed to pay the credit card company for letting you charge items, and you failed to pay them then that means that you have no integrity. if you did not intend to pay back what you charged then you should not enter into that contract. you cannot control what the charge card company does right or wrong but you can control your actions.

it seems that those that think like yourself want to piece meal segments of what our society has to offer. you want to participate as long as you benefit for nothing in return. you want that new car but when the bank loans you the money to buy it, then because the bank is corrupt you don't want to pay them for it. you want something for nothing.

Namaste'

[peacelovinman]

the point is mike, if it is a fraudulent system, then do not participate in it at all. don't use money, don't trade labor for money, don't borrow money. i used these analogies to illustrate the concepts at it's simplest way. forget the friend the bank the house, these were tools to show you that you think it is ok to get something for nothing.

people such as yourself can twist it any way you want to as long as you get goods and services for nothing. you get a charge card and go to the store and buy a sweater and charge it. you now have a sweater that you did not have. you then claim that the credit card company is ripping you off with tremendous rates so that is your reason for not paying them. you are no different from someone that goes into the store and steals the sweater. in both instances, you got the sweater for nothing. at least when you stole the sweater you were up front about it. when you agreed to pay the credit card company for letting you charge items, and you failed to pay them then that means that you have no integrity. if you did not intend to pay back what you charged then you should not enter into that contract. you cannot control what the charge card company does right or wrong but you can control your actions.

it seems that those that think like yourself want to piece meal segments of what our society has to offer. you want to participate as long as you benefit for nothing in return. you want that new car but when the bank loans you the money to buy it, then because the bank is corrupt you don't want to pay them for it. you want something for nothing.

Namaste'

I'm sorry my friend, but you have absolutely no understanding of money, credit agreements, money creation mechanics, contract law, commerce or any of the related subjects that govern the way our monetary system works. You arguements are invalid because you are ignorant of how the system works. You are bringing forth simplistic, erroneous arguements without doing the research.

Our society has absolutely no hope for redemption whilst we allow privately owned banks to regulate and issue the "money" we need for the basics of survival.

Children will continue to starve, wars will continue to be fought, new technology will continue to be surpressed; misery and strife will plague us for now and evermore. If money could solve these problems, it would have done so hundreds of years ago. It cannot; it is in fact the cause of them.

This is why we are trying to show you and people like you that all is not what it seems. We have all been blinded to the truth.

I have no axe to grind. I have no personal debt. I do not borrow money. I attempt to withold my custom from organisations I know to be corrupt. But I can only do so much; at present I need the worthless pieces of paper money my labour returns in exchange for food to feed my family.

Please, please, please, do the research and at least look into what we are saying. If you and others like you do not, then you condemn us all to the tyranny of the banks.

[Gnosis5]

That is very smart of you to not have any debt nor credit cards. The usury on credit cards is immorally high and I fell into that temptation but I'm out of it now and paying back all our debts. We have considered closing out by paying just the principle and not the interest. I think that is fair at this point.

Aside from the regret of having fallen in the trap, it has woken me up to the something out of nothing mentality of some bankers. When the confidence goes it becomes nothing out of nothing.

I sure wish we had a jubilee year coming up soon.

[THE eXchanger]

How money is created is all wrong
there is no doubt, about that
part of the "inside plan" to pull wool over our eyes
and, make a group of people, very rich

and, yet, we go to a job
and, earn the dollars
and, we go to the market, and, spend the dollars
and, if we utilise credit
there is a debtor/and, a creditor in that equation

once upon a time, we forged
our own money --

called The bronze dolphin coinages of ancient Olbia
are one of the most interesting bronze coinages
of the Black Sea area.

They are unique in both shape and format.

Olbia Thrace was located in the area of modern Bulgaria and Ukraine and was populated by Greek peoples.

It is interesting and quite unusual that the Olbians adopted a casting method and the dolphin shape rather than the traditional round coinage of their neighbors and indeed the entire Greek world.

The reason for this is fairly simple. It is common knowledge that even to this day there is a large population of bottlenose dolphins in the Black Sea and the native peoples would have seen these playful creatures almost daily. Bottlenose dolphins are the easy to train, playful dolphins that you will see in aquariums and water shows.

The Olbians evidently enjoyed the dolphins to the extent that they pattered their coinage after them. There may also have been a religious significance as ancient Greek Mythology places the dolphin, Delphinus, as the "Sacred Fish" which appears as a theme many times in Greek mythology.

Once a dolphin helped Poseidon locate the mermaid Amphitrite whom he brought back to his golden palace to be his Queen.

As a reward, Poseidon placed the dolphin in the constallation Delphinus. There are many instances of dolphins coming to the aid of sailors in peril so it is not completely unreasonable that they would have patterned their coinage in the shape of their beloved dolphins.

This series was minted from the fifth to third centuries BC and includes many varieties including some rarer issues with legends. Most of the dolphins are rather crudely cast but the better specimens show dorsal fins and eyes as well as a mid fin that runs along the body. It seem the casting method employed was a standard method adopted by the Celts in France who originated in this area. The dolphins were was in a tree connected by the tail, which is why you find so many short examples, the tails were trimmed off in a hurry to finish and get on to casting the next batch. Many premium examples will have a large blob at the end of the tail, which is actually part of the stem or casting tree. Some examples seem to be cast as singles as the tail is quite distinct and well formed which would point to a second form of casting or perhaps, as was the practice of the Celts of France, a second casting was made using an original piece as a copy.

and, when weights or measures were used
we pressed them from bronze/copper/silver and gold

maybe, we should go back to forging our own money

however, it all boils down
to eXchange --

How people make contracts-
and, the karma that comes out of it,
as, how you honour agreements
affects your karma

the way to solve it all
is, to STOP trading WITH THE BANDITS
and, eXchange
and, trade with ourselves

love/susan
the eXchanger

[Gnosis5]

I have been admiring the self-sufficiency of the Amish and Mennonite people.

[Mike_Jetson]

the point is mike, if it is a fraudulent system, then do not participate in it at all. don't use money, don't trade labor for money, don't borrow money.

You cant do much without our currency right now. I am actively participating less and less as time goes on and this is another area im hitting hard. Self sufficiency in areas of food and energy. Avoiding digital transactions as much as possible. Your statement reminds me of all the angry patriotic english folk who say "if you dont like our country then **** off home". Im not saying you say those things, just reminds me of it as these people dont know the difference between asylum seeker and illegal immigrant and you dont know how banking and debt works and refuse to listen to what people are openly spending time here trying to help people learn.


people such as yourself can twist it any way you want to as long as you get goods and services for nothing. you get a charge card and go to the store and buy a sweater and charge it. you now have a sweater that you did not have. you then claim that the credit card company is ripping you off with tremendous rates so that is your reason for not paying them

Youve messed up big time there. I never mentioned anything to do with interest rates and i dont remember anyone here saying thats the reason either. Id be using the law to tackle it even at zero percent. And I am not twisting anything. I am exposing what has been twisted behind our backs and deceived us.


you are no different from someone that goes into the store and steals the sweater. in both instances, you got the sweater for nothing. at least when you stole the sweater you were up front about it. when you agreed to pay the credit card company for letting you charge items, and you failed to pay them then that means that you have no integrity. if you did not intend to pay back what you charged then you should not enter into that contract. you cannot control what the charge card company does right or wrong but you can control your actions.

I think youre a lost cause. Theres apparantly no such thing as a lost cause but i cant see the light here. Dont bring integrity into it. Sorry have you completely missed the financial meltdown caused by the greed of bankers? Come back to our planet please. Nobody encouraged anyone to go out and apply for debt just to get things for 'free'. Which actually is incorrect if youd bother to read what is wrote here. The money belongs to you. Your promise to pay was converted into a deposit for you, hidedn from you and used when you buy things. all we are doing is simply deciding that we do not want to pay for it twice and we do not want to pay interest on it.

I havnt even started yet on actually claiming money back from the banks but that is a reality.


it seems that those that think like yourself want to piece meal segments of what our society has to offer. you want to participate as long as you benefit for nothing in return

I suppose you want to work hard and pay your taxes? Is that right. Good luck to you. Im having trouble understanding how youre on the Avalon forum and dont agree with people wanting to keep the good bits of society and cast out the bad.


you want that new car

Only a fool with too much money to burn buys a new car. It has to be the worse 'investment' known to man.

but when the bank loans you the money to buy it
The bank isnt loaning any money, sorry for saying that for the fifth time.


then because the bank is corrupt you don't want to pay them for it. you want something for nothing.

I dont want to pay them twice for it thats for sure.

Namaste'

Same to you too dude. I know this is having an impact in that brain somewhere, putting so much energy into it just prooves your conditioning is fighting hard :D

www.tpuc.org - give that a go, i dare ya :)

[Mike_Jetson]

I have been admiring the self-sufficiency of the Amish and Mennonite people.

Too true.

Susan. I love those dolphin coins. You may have strayed a bit off topic there ;)

But yeah, as you know there are many people in villages and towns all over the world using their own currency. Like Lewes in England. Not many of them get media attention

[peacelovinman]

the way to solve it all
is, to STOP trading WITH THE BANDITS
and, eXchange
and, trade with ourselves

love/susan
the eXchanger

I agree. Money has had it's day. Exchange between individuals is incorruptible by a third party. New communities, new ways of doing things, focussing on what is REAL (LOVE, COOPERATION, HARMONY) and not FICTION (corporations, money, courts, politics, laws, etc, etc...); this is what we need.

[Mike_Jetson]

I agree. Money has had it's day. Exchange between individuals is incorruptible by a third party. New communities, new ways of doing things, focussing on what is REAL (LOVE, COOPERATION, HARMONY) and not FICTION (corporations, money, courts, politics, laws, etc, etc...); this is what we need.

Yep, what real free trade is supposed to actually be when they talk about it.

Free trade is more free reign for the elite

[TAXMASTER]

This will be my last post on this issue. you cannot teach ethics or morality. this thread was started to let people know that the credit agreements that they made may be unenforceable by the credit institutions. While it is alarming how many people have gotten theirselves into debt and the rates of interest and other charges can be very high and even unethical. I am not here to defend those institutions or their practices. I am making a statement about honoring one's agreement. for if you enter into an agreement to receive or get something on a condition that later you must pay or do something, then you must honor that agreement. If the agreement is unfair, then don't make the agreement. If the agreement is unfair and you make the agreement, then honor your end of the contract and chalk it up to education and learn from it.

The points I was making were simplistic sure but the truth is there if you look for it. The credit institutions do not issue you credit unless you promise to pay the debt. the key words are "PROMISE TO PAY". You do not end up in debt unless you purchased something of value or something that you valued at that time. You knew what the rules were because you signed the contract, if you didn't read the contract then that is too bad because in the print it clearly states that you have read and understand the contract.

Now let us talk about my expertise. You say that I don't understand how money is made. That I need to do research. Well my friend, you know nothing about me. I fully understand how money is created and I fully understand that our currency is a fiat system with nothing backing it. I am not naive, for I understand it all. As a CPA, and CFP, and a Licensed NASD broker, I have had years of wheeling and dealing in the world of money. I have bought and sold busnesses and have made and lost millions.

In all my travels, I have learned to size up a man (sorry ladies) by one thing. His integrity. You cannot buy integrity. Integrity is sometimes not on the side of the law. It has its own virtue and rules. Integrity follows the rules of Karma. I shall not speak again on this thread.

Namaste,

[Jasper]

From the original post on this issue, I read in the paper the other day that the couple had lost a court case trying to write off all their debts. They were quite successful, of the £120,000 they owed, they got it down to £20k.

Not bad, but then the Judge ruled against the basis of their claim and they had to pay Court costs............guess what, it was £100k, so they were back to where they started.

I must admit that it made me laugh a lot.

[Average Joe]

This will be my last post on this issue. you cannot teach ethics or morality. this thread was started to let people know that the credit agreements that they made may be unenforceable by the credit institutions. While it is alarming how many people have gotten theirselves into debt and the rates of interest and other charges can be very high and even unethical. I am not here to defend those institutions or their practices. I am making a statement about honoring one's agreement. for if you enter into an agreement to receive or get something on a condition that later you must pay or do something, then you must honor that agreement. If the agreement is unfair, then don't make the agreement. If the agreement is unfair and you make the agreement, then honor your end of the contract and chalk it up to education and learn from it.

The points I was making were simplistic sure but the truth is there if you look for it. The credit institutions do not issue you credit unless you promise to pay the debt. the key words are "PROMISE TO PAY". You do not end up in debt unless you purchased something of value or something that you valued at that time. You knew what the rules were because you signed the contract, if you didn't read the contract then that is too bad because in the print it clearly states that you have read and understand the contract.

Now let us talk about my expertise. You say that I don't understand how money is made. That I need to do research. Well my friend, you know nothing about me. I fully understand how money is created and I fully understand that our currency is a fiat system with nothing backing it. I am not naive, for I understand it all. As a CPA, and CFP, and a Licensed NASD broker, I have had years of wheeling and dealing in the world of money. I have bought and sold busnesses and have made and lost millions.

In all my travels, I have learned to size up a man (sorry ladies) by one thing. His integrity. You cannot buy integrity. Integrity is sometimes not on the side of the law. It has its own virtue and rules. Integrity follows the rules of Karma. I shall not speak again on this thread.

Namaste,

You'd be wasting your time. They don't want to know.

But, you are completely correct.

At least I understand your stance.

[Mike_Jetson]

There is no lack of understanding from 'our' part to understand your point of view because I would have said exactly what you are saying if I was sitting here logging on 2 years ago before I gained the knowledge that people here are trying to help you to see. It doesnt surprise me that you dont wish to comment further as your reasoning only goes as far as arguing the integrity of honoring a contract when you have no idea what laws were broken and which facts were hidden in the creation of this contract.

You emphasise the contract but in doing so show you have no idea how contract law works, you would know that full disclosure must be provided and this is just one item which is hidden which is not supposed to be hidden as it exposes the unlawful game they play.

[Average Joe]

I don't care about any of that.

What I care about is my integrity and morality, and yours too.

I feel morally bound to honour my obligations to the best of my ability and why shouldn't I?

It matters not, on a personal level, what rules have been broken and where the lender got the money from. All that matters, is that in reality, as in you the customers reality, the reality that actually matters, you have money to buy something that you did not have, and you owe it back.

Yeah, yeah, yeah but they didn't lend you it in the first place. Oh, they did. They really did.

All you're basically saying in Layman's terms is that their agreement with you is pretty much worthless. So don't pay the money back.

The bottom line is after that it is a choice. A choice that thankfully I don't need to make, but if I did have to make it I would make the right choice.

I'll give you this, your information must be very attractive to somebody in a terrible debt situation. A way out if you like.

[Mike_Jetson]

I don't care about any of that.

Sorry to bore you with the facts. Without understanding the facts the ethics and integrity are a blank consideration.

It matters not, on a personal level, what rules have been broken and where the lender got the money from

The banks & The mafia. At least when people borrowed from the mob the money actually existed in the 1st place. So youre saying it doesnt mater where they got the money from. Ignorance must be bliss. How do people with your mindset even land on this forum/Camelot. Its like saying, "well yeah sure theres a bunch of folk controlling lots of things in the background which cause massive death and destruction all around the world but what do i care, I am still warm and have an income and can eat" Yes its an exageration and this is the exact mindset that a lot fo the public have.


All that matters, is that in reality, as in you the customers reality, the reality that actually matters, you have money to buy something that you did not have, and you owe it back.

Again I will repeat myself. Its your money that was used to buy the goods on the credit card. Or the cash that was created by you to buy the car.

Yeah, yeah, yeah but they didn't lend you it in the first place. Oh, they did. They really did.

No they didnt. Dudes levitate in the street and take the heads off doves and put them back on again and the dove lives. Its a wonderful illusion.

All you're basically saying in Layman's terms is that their agreement with you is pretty much worthless. So don't pay the money back.

Thats probably way beyond laymens terms but yes. The physical original agreement is not worthless though. This cna be proved by paying off a credit card, closing the account and asking for your original signed agreement to be returned. Its almost certanly not possible because it has been sold. Ask yourself why your signed agreement cant be returned. In fact, if youve had a card in the past ask your lender for it. And why would a signed piece of paper be worth anything?

I'll give you this, your information must be very attractive to somebody in a terrible debt situation. A way out if you like.

Ofcourse. We have had people on the verge of bankruptcy ultimately save the 600 a month they were paying out immediately while they tackled the lenders with the right questions and demands backwards and forwards.

Like I said before, its no massive secret, its just the result of some major studying and understanding of the law and is only one small part of our overall picture. Not the Law that students are taught. Well in fact yes its the same law but we dont have the education system conditioning us into a certain mindset. Obviously many members joined initially for debt reasons.

If you continue to think that the money was created from thin air and THEN belonged to the bank to lend then the first hurdle will carry on catching you out. Ask yourself something else. Why are the days gone, where you had to sit with the bank manager to argue your case for a loan even though you may have a large disposable income and secure job and this was easily proven back then. The chances are the banks were playing by the rules and were in fact lending their assets which were a multiplication of deposits held. Who knows. What we do know is that there were massive and almost suddent changes in banking that resulted in banks being able to lend to anyone with no risk.

Ask yourself this. Why is confidence more important than people not paying?

Why is confidence the most important factor in deciding how safe the current banking system is. Surely people no longer paying would be more important than a small percentage of customers taking cash out. NOPE

No asset is at risk when people dont pay. If any asset was at risk then getting hold of the cash in the 1st place wouldnt be so easy.

So please dont say again that they lent you the money because they never.

Im deep in this myself. Its not just talk for me. I have a 48 hour deadline to file my defence to court for a debt. I will keep you posted on the outcome.

[Average Joe]

Are you unable to pay or unwilling to pay Mike?

[Mike_Jetson]

Are you unable to pay or unwilling to pay Mike?

I am able and willing to pay upon production of required (by law) documents

[MMe M]

[QUOTE=Average Joe;82014]I don't care about any of that.

What I care about is my integrity and morality, and yours too.

I feel morally bound to honour my obligations to the best of my ability and why shouldn't I?

QUOTE]

How much does that cost again?

Im pretty sure your doomed from the onset and that those morals and ethics your spouting are guilt instilled by those running the game and making the rules. If we all had no compassion or guilt about being good little slaves for the evil banksters, they would be outa bizness!

[alternative-answer]

I have had my agreement audited and re-audited and it is found to be in breach of the consumer credit act 1974 and the bank will be challenged on the basis that it is unenforcable therefore non repayable.

[alternative-answer]

Credit Cards; No Need to Pay...you already have!

http://www.thetruthwillout.com/common_law.html

[alternative-answer]

ThinkFREE is dedicated to helping achieve a freer and more just society, where authority is achieved without deception and exercised with restraint, understanding, accountability and compassion. We employ satire, comedy shows, guerrilla videography, Notarial justice, advocacy, public action and dance.
www.thinkfree.ca
www.thinkfreeforums.org
http://www.thetruthwillout.com/

“Think Free – Bursting Bubbles of Government Deception”
http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=-7040453665540929835&q=&hl=en

“Think Free – The Magnificent Deception”
http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=6729904244308031068&ei=ost0SLiPFIf2iQK4jPmDCw&hl=en

The great FREE pdf book by Mary Elizabeth Croft;http://www.hackcanada.com/canadian/freedom/mary_croft.pdf

[reikione]

Anyone from Michigan in the Liberty Wealth Club? I'm currently listening to their conference call. Anyone know where I can get this information without joining the club?