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Baggywrinkle
12-29-2008, 03:52 AM
Is Social Security a Ponzi Scheme?

Posted by: Michael Mandel on December 28

(This is the first in a series on technology and the crisis)

In the aftermath of the Madoff implosion, quite a few people have pointed out the parallels between a Ponzi scheme and Social Security. Arnold Kling, whom I respect, has written:

I’ve been thinking that Madoff is a perfect analogy for the public sector. The government gives people money, which it expects to obtain by taking the money from people in the future. Even the Center on Budget Policy and Priorities, not known as a right-wing organization, sees the U.S. fiscal stance as unsustainable (pointer from Ezra Klein via Tyler Cowen)—in other words, a Ponzi scheme.


Other people have gone farther. Paul Mulshine of the New Jersey Star Ledger wrote a column entitled “The Ponzi scheme that Baby Boomers are waiting to cash in on.” And Jim Cramer has called Social Security the biggest Ponzi scheme in history.


Superficially, these critics have a point, and there is a parallel between Social Security and a Ponzi scheme. But on a fundamental level, they are very wrong, and it’s worth explaining why.

First, the parallel. Social Security taxes current workers to pay Social Security benefits for current retirees. In other words, the new entrants into the Social Security system, the young workers, pay off the previous entrants, the older workers. And despite the fact you have a Social Security “account”, there is no necessary link between what you paid into the system in taxes, and what you receive.

That’s very similar to the structure of a Ponzi scheme, where new investors pay off the original investors. As long as enough new ‘victims’ are brought into the scheme, it keeps growing and growing. But when the new investors runs out, the Ponzi collapses. Analogously, the slowdown in population growth puts pressure on Social Security finances.

But there is one enormous difference between Social Security and a Ponzi scheme: Technological change. Over the past century, new technologies have enabled the output of the country to grow much faster than its population. To be more precise, the U.S. population has more than tripled since the early 1900s, while the U.S. economic output has gone up by more than 20 times.

This long track record of technology-powered growth has enabled the enormous rise in living standards in the U.S. and other developed countries. In fact, this increase in productivity—output per worker—is the key fact which gives us our way of life today.

Assuming that technological progress continues over the next 70 years, and output productivity growth continues over the next 70 years, the finances of Social Security are relatively easy to fix. A fairly minor cut in benefits, combined with a relatively small increase in taxes, will bring the system back into balance again. (the latest Social Security report projects a 75-year deficit of $4.3 trillion. That sounds like a lot of money, but over 75 years it’s roughly $60 billion a year…not chicken feed, but not overwhelming).

But here’s the rub. Ultimately our ability to make good on the “Ponzi-like” nature of Social Security depends on the continued march of technological progress—and in particular, innovation which boosts output and living standards. If we leave the younger generation a good legacy—a sound scientific and technological base, combined with an innovative and flexible economy and an educated workforce—then Social Security is not a Ponzi scheme. The economy grows, and there’s more than enough resources for everyone.

But if instead we—the current generation—invest in homes, flat-screen televisions and SUVs, then we don’t leave the next generation with the technological “seed corn” they need. If the technological progress slows, then Social Security does turn out to be Ponzi-like—with unfortunate consequences for everyone.
http://www.businessweek.com/the_thread/economicsunbound/archives/2008/12/is_social_secur.html?chan=top+news_top+news+index+-+temp_news+%2B+analysis

Dantheman62
12-29-2008, 04:03 AM
For those that don't know about a Ponzi scheme......A Ponzi scheme is a fraudulent investment operation that pays returns to investors out of the money paid by subsequent investors rather than from profit. The term "Ponzi scheme" is used primarily in the United States, while other English-speaking countries do not distinguish colloquially between this scheme and other pyramid schemes.

The Ponzi scheme usually offers abnormally high short-term returns in order to entice new investors. The perpetuation of the high returns that a Ponzi scheme advertises and pays requires an ever-increasing flow of money from investors in order to keep the scheme going.

The eponymous Ponzi scheme was orchestrated by Charles Ponzi, who went from anonymity to being a well-known Boston millionaire in six months using such a scheme in 1920. Profits were supposed to come from exchanging international postal reply coupons. He promised 50% interest (return) on investments in 45 days or “double your money” in 90 days. About 40,000 people invested about $15 million all together; in the end, only a third of that money was returned to them.

On December 11, 2008, former chairman of the NASDAQ Stock Market Bernard Madoff was arrested and charged with a single count of securities fraud, but one which, if proved, may rank among the biggest frauds ever - totaling $50 billion of fraudulent losses. If these figures are accurate, this would be the biggest Ponzi scheme in history. It is alleged that one of Madoff's biggest investors, René-Thierry Magon de la Villehuchet, of Access International Advisors, committed suicide following the disclosure of the scheme. At the time of this writing, it is unclear to what extent Access International's funds were involved in the scheme. Villehuchet is alleged to have lost as much as $1.4 billion in Madoff's scheme.

Egg
12-29-2008, 04:15 AM
Villehuchet is alleged to have lost as much as $1.4 billion in Madoff's scheme.

I feel not a single shred of pity for any one who has billions and loses it because of sheer naked avarice. Dammit, people around the globe live on pennies, and these people moan and kill themselves because of soem money when they have billions left to spare?

Pity? not from me they won't get a shred.

alyscat
12-29-2008, 01:21 PM
SS would not be anywhere NEAR being a "Ponzi scheme" if our elected officials hadn't robbed it so often to pay for other things when funds came up short, like floods in the midwest, etc. After all, why plan for a future possibility when we can claim that we are against raising taxes and want to cut taxes, but use the money that we've already raised. Oh, and if it gets rid of that bugaboo, SS, all to the better!

Think what you might about Gore, his "put SS in a locked box" idea was one I really approved of.

alys

Dantheman62
12-30-2008, 06:27 PM
Here's another one...WASHINGTON (Reuters) - U.S. securities regulators obtained an emergency court order to stop an alleged Ponzi scheme that collected more than $23 million from thousands of investors in Florida's Haitian-American community, the Securities and Exchange Commission said on Tuesday.
The SEC alleged that Creative Capital and its principal, George Theodule, launched a scheme as early as November 2007 urging investors to form investment clubs to funnel funds to Theodule and Creative Capital.

The SEC alleged Theodule has lost at least $18 million trading stocks and options over the last year and that Creative Capital repaid early investors with money from later investors. Theodule combined investor funds with his personal funds and misappropriated at least $3.8 million for himself and his family, the SEC alleged.

peaceandlove
03-11-2009, 12:04 PM
:cool: :rolleyes: :eek:

http://i43.tinypic.com/2n061b9.jpg

Connecting with Sauce
03-11-2009, 11:41 PM
This is from another post on here but at 2 minutes in he actually states Ponza scheme and social security in the same sentence!!! :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndoJHxX3cKA

Also talks of higher interest rates being needed! Is that hinting at hyper-inflation...

Soulmate7
03-12-2009, 12:00 AM
Isn't fiat money the biggest ponzi of all when you realize how money is "created"? Social security being a ponzi, is a consequence of the ponzi system. It's a scam within a giant scam.