Need advice - How to live Non-Electrically
 

Looking for creative ideas here!

Here's my thinking ... I grew up non-electric until age 11, so I know how they did it in the old days. However, I want to get away from all things like propane, kerosene, gas, oil, etc., all harmful products.

I've solved most of the heating/cooking problems, but I haven't solved light. Candles -- old fashioned way, made from beeswax, but that's HONEYBEES, in short supply. New way is Parafin, but that's an oil derivative, petroleum. I don't want to support that industry in any way.

So that leaves? Anybody with true alternative energy ideas out there?

Thanks! Peace to all on this beautiful planet.

Re: Need advice - How to live Non-Electrically
 

Hi, I haven't got too much experience with alternative energy. The bad ice storm we experienced here in Quebec a few years ago motivated me quite a bit, however!

We improved our fire place for starters so now the new insert will spread heat thruout the house.

We have been looking at portable solar panels that would connect to a 12 volt battery and then by using an inverter we would have electric power for small appliances eg laptop, small fridge, battery recharging etc. We need to consult with a friend who is an electrician to see is this is a viable way to proceed. And that's as far as we have gotten so far. Diane

Re: Need advice - How to live Non-Electrically
 

Hey D, I went to google and there's all kinds of natural wax candles, including vegetable wax,soy wax, and palm oil wax, if you're in a windy area than a wind turbine is great for free elec., or if you're near a river than a water turbine is great free elec., just my 2 cents! PEACE

Re: Need advice - How to live Non-Electrically
 

Turn out the lights???!!! :roll1:

Sorry . . . . couldn't resist . . . . I really just wanted to use the little rolling laughing face.

Re: Need advice - How to live Non-Electrically
 

go solar...

peace
bananaman

Re: Need advice - How to live Non-Electrically
 

Has anyone mentioned steam power? I think that would be a viable way of charging batteries in order to have light.

You could use it as your main source of generating power, or just as a backup to your Solar/Hydro/Wind set-up.

Jay

Re: Need advice - How to live Non-Electrically
 

Thanks for all the suggestions so far!

Blufire - I do turn out the lights! A lot of the time I live by the sun, go to bed early all that. However, I'm realizing that by "lights" I'm really also meaning (maybe) computer, and some small electrical devices.

Diane and Bananaman -- Can't afford to go major solar, but you just reminded me that my niece took two small portable solar panels with her to Kenya when she was in the Peace Corps and living in a native village. I'll have to find out from her if they worked or not.

The battery part of the solar setup, to store electricity, isn't very much to my liking, but I guess that's where the technology is today in that regard.

I'm going to look into bicycle-recharging of batteries, too. I think I saw something about that somewhere.

More thoughts welcome here!

Re: Need advice - How to live Non-Electrically
 

I heard a story online, allegedly based on fact, about an archeological group that discovered an ever-burning lamp inside one of the pyramids. When they opened the tomb, they discovered the lamp inside, which was in a closed container and had no apparent source of fuel/energy. This is evidently a bit of technology that has been discovered and utilized in the planet's distant past, and since lost. Perhaps a talented researcher and remote viewer in this group could try to scout that out?

Re: Need advice - How to live Non-Electrically
 

Steam -- Am willing to think about it, but I don't live near any hot springs. Energy is needed to make steam -- fire maybe. How would this work?

Re: Need advice - How to live Non-Electrically
 

That's it, sunnyrap! That's what I (and everyone on this planet!) is looking for! I'll have to start another thread, calling remote viewers! Thanks!

Re: Need advice - How to live Non-Electrically
 

There are two issues I'm keen on solving for myself: getting my little Tracker converted to use hydrogen fuel (Texas is just too big to be stuck without wheels!); and, having a generator that also runs on water.

Re: water-for-fuel
There is a bewildering variety of material on this topic and I'm no engineer. I did download a set of plans for a device you could build yourself and attach to your fuel system that supplemented your gasoline with hydrogen for cleaner, more efficient fuel power, but that had some drawbacks, imo. Not the least of which if there is a total break in the gasoline supply, expensive or not. I'd much rather go for the full hydrogen solution. However, I've read that you have to tweak your onboard computer to not respond to fuel sensors that shut down the engine if they sense improper fuel mixture. If there are any engineer types or even car geeks in the group--I'd sure like all the input on this project I can get. Maybe we can put together a library of links with notes on the various set ups/plans available?

Re: generators.
Someone on Avalon had posted a link to a YouTube that demo'd the zero-point generator (i.e., it runs on 'no' energy, once the battery gets the generator motor started). Tremendous concept, but I sure can't afford the $20,000 pricetag for that kind of machine, myself (but I bet a municipality could, forced to supply their own citizen's power--hmmm!). But waxing self-reliant appeals to me, so a hydrogen generator or magnetic type that George Green demo'd seem the least problematical for that. Any of you given this some in depth thought?

.

Re: Need advice - How to live Non-Electrically
 

Also, considering that there may be electromagnetic changes on this planet, that will possibly disable all electrical devices, it would be good to be thinking of -- not ways to generate electricity -- but more along sunnyrap's thought, things that work entirely in a different way. (So forget my mention of computers and small electrical devices!) The thinking is evolving as I read these various posts. Good brainstorming.

Re: Need advice - How to live Non-Electrically
 

Sorry for being a smarty pants. Actually Solar, wind, steam are all valid.

Do look up info on the bicycle generated stuff. I have a couple websites on this and will look them up,

The bike is attached to an alternator (car type) which in turns generates the battery. I wanted a couple of these especially in an bunker/shelter situation as a form of pragmatic energy producing exercise. Also attach to treadmills . . . which could also serve to exercise your dog! :sweatdrop:

Re: Need advice - How to live Non-Electrically
 

Don't forget hydro-power. If you live near a stream, creek or river. Great source or never ending motion.

Re: Need advice - How to live Non-Electrically
 

Hydro -- if the stream is big enough and has enough force behind the water! I do live near a stream and at first thought I would build a waterwheel, but the stream isn't deep enough and doesn't move fast enough. Any thoughts on this?

And yes you were a smartypants, but you seem like a good soul nonetheless.

TO ALL: I have to go now, but will check back in later. Thanks for the discussion. It's getting the brain cells moving!

Re: Need advice - How to live Non-Electrically
 

Up here where i am WIND POWER is the way to generate, but if we have an electromagnetic spike then????????????? maybe we will have to base our lives around the rise and fall of the sun!

Re: Need advice - How to live Non-Electrically
 

We live quite well now "off the grid" on our boat. We utilize wind and solar to run lights, tvs, fans, laptops, refrigeration, whatever our power needs. Yes, as long as it is available, I LIKE my laptop with PC Card that lets me pick up the internet wherever we roam.

We installed a keel-kooled refrigerator that uses 40 amps a day. It holds a month's supply of veggies, breads, dairy, whatever. Granted, i had to get used to a top-load. No big deal.

For lights, we found LED flashlights for $1.00 and converted them to excellent reading/ambient lighting. There are now lots available, more expensive, but very workable for almost NO power. We searched out low-amp fans, which keep us cool even in the high-humidity of SW Florida.

For cooking, we still use LPG. We carry a 3-month supply. We built a solar oven, but it needs constant tweaking. Jacques Fresca (The Venus Project) used prisms to focus sunlight for an efficient cooker, but we haven't figured out how to do this yet. We truly don't need cabin heat or air-conditioning.

We use 2 8-D AGM Glassmat batteries to store energy. Runs everything we need. Wind power recharges much faster, but is not as dependable as slow, steady solar. Occasionally, we have to top the batteries with our diesel generator. It takes 1/4 gal of diesel to recharge full. We use an e-meter to keep up with everything. J installed everything himself, and we both understand how to keep our power supply running smoothly. (Even when I stay on Avalon way too many hours lately!!)

The ideal solution is a "free energy" generator. We have seen one work, but none of the models have ever made it to market. They ARE available, and they DO work. SOON??? We wanted to build a magnet motor generator, but couldn't find plans that were reliable enough to justify the cost.

The waterfall/hydropower system is pretty complicated to install, and doesn't give much power, regardless of the size of the wheel or amount of water. You lose a lot through the electric lines to reach your power supply.

It is very liberating, to be so self-sufficient. Our budget went down 75% when we cut the docklines. We use our bikes and kayaks to provision, can get to excellent farmer's markets within "sail" power, spend the rest of the time enjoying a more natural environment.

Re: Need advice - How to live Non-Electrically
 

Dear Peace,

Sounds wonderful! Just a quick question, just passing through again, will be back later, but what is a keel-cooled refrigerator?

Re: Need advice - How to live Non-Electrically
 

Go here to learn how to inexpensively build your own electric generating solar panel(s). He includes links for the electronics as well as a DIY wind generator.

http://www.mdpub.com/SolarPanel/index.html

Enjoy!

Re: Need advice - How to live Non-Electrically
 

Hi all.......

Interesting thread......I know I read somewhere (or was it in a flyer) that either IKEA or Canadian Tire are actually selling small solar panels. Does anyone know about this? Are they worth the money? As I recall they were fairly inexpensive - so again....are they worth it? OR do you get what you pay for? :thumbdown:


Any thoughts?

K

Re: Need advice - How to live Non-Electrically
 

Hi again ... just checking in quickly to see what's new. OK, collecting enough references here to keep me deep in research for a while!

Must reiterate ... solar, wind, steam, water... we talk about them here that they will generate electricity to drive our currently existing electrical devices. At best, I am now looking at those alternate means as a temporary jump off the grid ... until there is an electromagnetic pulse when all the electrical devices will be useless, as well as the solar, wind, steam, water set up to drive them.

BIG JUMP needed here! Truly alternate! No electricity or electrical devices.

I'm not saying I won't go to solar if I can or any of the others ... as an in-between thing, but I don't think it will be permanent.

Going back to early industrial times, there was mechanical power ... like water-driven mills for grinding grain (the same kind of mechanical power horses or oxen provide when they walk round and round in circles and grind grain in older cultures, turning two stones with the grain in between). Early power in America was steam from burning something ... coal, wood.

We're thinking here that solar, wind, etc. will provide electricity.

Any thoughts about what else it could do? Water can provide direct mechanical energy, as in the mill. Wind can also provide direct mechanical energy, as in lifting water out of the ground (windmills), no electricity involved. Solar can cook directly, no electricity involved.

Still haven't solved the problem of providing light! So far, it's either candles or some form of electric, or the mysterious globe found in the pyramids that we need some remote viewers to take a look at to see how it works.

Also, we've engaged so far three of the four denser elements: water, fire, and air. Earth energy could be geothermal, but I don't live near any hot springs.

Re: Need advice - How to live Non-Electrically
 

Our two largest challenges are pumping water and
refrigeration.

My preferred solutions would be a water tower, a steam
engine, and biogas.

I'm aware of several dairy operations that generate huge
amounts of biogas and convert it into electricity. There
is a Hutterite community in Northern Alberta that sells
excess biogas generated electricity to the local grid.

As far as lighting goes. We've started using strontium based phospholuminescent tape

Check this out.

http://download.101com.com/wa-mcv/oh...it5%5B1%5D.jpg

http://www.identi-tape.com/phosphor.htm
These techniques can work. No pie in the sky here, and
steam is tried and true; a perfected technology.

Re: Need advice - How to live Non-Electrically
 

I hope this will help!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6E41v...eature=related

Re: Need advice - How to live Non-Electrically
 

Hey D, check my post again up top, there's all kinds of natural candles so light isn't a problem, there's plenty of hand crank pumps out there so water isn't a problem, use wood for heat and cooking so the only thing your missing is refrigeration, which we never had any way in the old days, so there you go!

Biogas & Steam
 

http://www.habmigern2003.info/biogas...n/image005.jpg

http://www.habmigern2003.info/biogas...905_BFC_BF.JPG

http://www.habmigern2003.info/biogas...10m3_HDPE1.jpg



Otherpower home built steam powered generator video clip. With an appropriate battery bank you
would run this once a week to charge. Of course it could get as big and fancy as you can dream.
(solar, wind, hydrogen, ect ect ect) You could also run pump jacks or air compressors with this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xksDjfLbcQ0

Re: Need advice - How to live Non-Electrically
 

That tape looks interesting- may use that up here. Thanks :)

Re: Need advice - How to live Non-Electrically
 

You can also find it as paint. This is a technology waiting
to happen. Entire floors or walls of this stuff. They are
making fireman's plastic hardhats with it to make them
easy to see in a smoke filled room.

In the first five minutes it is almost bright enough to read
by. Then it lingers visibly to the night adjusted eye for
12 hours or more.

We live in the country. Pitch black at night. We put
three small tabs of tape on each of our stairs. At night
it lights up like an airport runway. Fumbling in the dark
for the light switch? Never again.

Ever lost your car in a dark parking lot?

http://www.autospectator.com/uploads...42_lumines.jpg

Re: Need advice - How to live Non-Electrically
 

Hi,

It sounds very powerful but I was wondering if strontium isn't a radio active isotope ? So I am not sure if it's completely
safe for your health and the environment. Is there any info coming along with this product ?

I was also wondering how the steam generator was powered ... the clip does not show what it used as fuel.

A steam powered generator may work very well in my case. There's lots of bio mass waste to burn in close vicinity.
And I have created a parabolic mirror once to boil water using solar power. Very effective ... you don't even need that much sunlight.

Cheers

Re: Need advice - How to live Non-Electrically
 

B.t.w. Baggywrinkle,

Were you talking about a water tower before ?

I may have an idea for you:
if you vaporize water using whatever fuel you have available or the solar power I just mentioned in my previous post
it will rise upward by itself. Then you condense it on a higher level ....
That may work to lift water a couple of feet up

Cheers

Re: Biogas & Steam
 

The Canadian Tire solar panels rust around the terminal contacts and don't last. Their products are too cheap.

Steam engines are a last alternative to generate electricity from burning wood. LED lighting is the most efficient; they are expensive now, but lasts for many years, may be decades (tens of thousands of hours). Solar panel breakthroughs will eventually reduce the cost, but the pole shift scenario will cover the sun for years; the same senario will give lots of rain, so hydro would be good where you have changes in elevation. The ZPE device is the answer if we can find the solution before the SHTF.

Keel-kooled refrigeration
 

Most refrigeration systems require a condensing unit that throws off the heat. The keel-kooled unit is installed underneath the boat so that the heat disipates in the water. The colder the water, the more efficient the unit. Normal boat refrigeration systems have two pumps. One cools the unit by pumping water into the boat. One pumps refrigerant through the system. Two pumps take a lot of power.

With a keel-kooled unit, the compressor is the only pump. It pumps refrigerant through the keel-kooler, keeping the heat outside, thus increasing efficiency AND no need for water inside the boat. Much safer, no leaks, no sinking the boat.

We built a chest-type refrigerator, highly insulated, or you could choose a large unit sold through Boater's World that holds ice for up to a week. You mount the Fridg-O-Boat unit inside the box. Again, a DIY project. J can work on it and troubleshoot, a major benefit. This is, of course, a 12V set-up. It could be used with 24 V.

If you had running water, or a pond, nearby, you could use this technology on land. We put the unit in a bucket of water with a small amount of fresh water going in before we could install it underneath. Worked fine. It provides excellent refrigeration for very little power.

We have seen units that utilize the earth in a similar way. (Installed underground where the temperature remains at a constant cooler temperature)

DON'T FORGET LED LIGHTS! This is space-ship technology that continues to improve. Takes so little power, it hardly registers on the e-meter.

Re: Need advice - How to live Non-Electrically
 

The two compounds in these long acting photoluminescent
pigments are strontium and europium. They are not radioactive and are cousins to the luminescent zinc oxide
of our youth. These are much brighter and longer lived then the zinc compounds.


http://www.hylinesafety.com/images/280_EN-GW-1.gif

examples of products using these compounds. Move your mouse over the photos in the link below

http://www.ez-bright.co.jp/en/products/products.html

Any source of heat will make steam. That engine will run
on government paperwork! My train of thought would
be to use biogas (methane) generated from decomposing
organic matter. True sustainable permaculture in action.
This would be best done at a community level rather than an individual level. Think city sewage plant. The methane is there waiting to be utilized. On a farm using
the already available manure/humanure which must be
disposed of anyway, is also highly viable. The process produces fuel for heating
and highly valuable compost for crops. It is also independent of centralized control

Refrigeration.

An already perfected technology exists using ammonia
as the refrigerant. Any heat source; kerosene, propane,
natural gas, biogas, heats the ammonia and starts
the cooling cycle. There are no moving parts!

http://home.howstuffworks.com/refrigerator5.htm

I have lusted for a propane refrigerator like this one
made by the Amish

http://www.propanerefrigerator.com/

but they are not mass produced, and are therefore very
expensive (2-3000 dollars). Their consumption of propane/kerosene is also fairly dear. The second issue
could be circumvented by using one configured for natural gas and piping home made biogas into it. Voila!
Sustainable refrigeration that will last as long as your
livestock produce manure!

Once again, this technology would best be implemented
at a community level. Aspects of the technology are time intensive - you don't fire up a steam engine and just
walk away and leave it. It needs watching and tending. In a radiant zone community this would be one of the many regular chores to be done to make a community work.

Re: Need advice - How to live Non-Electrically
 

THANKS EVERYBODY! many great suggestions here.

I am at a disadvantage in having an old computer that cannot handle youtube ... so, those who gave youtube references ... do you have any other link to the same material? Something that could be read, maybe?

Dantheman - Thanks for your post. I'm still thinking about all this ... OK you stock up on candles, then you use them up. Remember those Medieval Cathedrals that had thousands of candles burning? How many candle-makers did it take to light by candles? Point being ... how do you make candles from vegetable oil, after you can't buy them anymore? Old cultures used oil lamps made from stone that burned animal fat.

For that matter, how would you make vegetable oil anyhow? (one of the great mysteries) :tears:

Baggywrinke - I've read about the photoluminescent paints. These are a nano product, as I understand it, but will have to do more research. There are paints now that will deodorize your house! That's nano too. Any nano is very scary as far as I'm concerned ... most of our technology has given with one hand and taken with the other, and nobody knows whether any of this stuff is safe in the long haul at the molecular level.

LED lights sounds good. I've read of a guy in Virginia who invented a light that somehow works in a long tube filled (with something ... research needed) that requires that you turn the tube every couple hours to keep the light working. He's probably got a patent on this though!

Peace of Mine -- Thanks for descriptions. You are reminding me about in-ground ... very doable for moderate refrigeration/ in-water also, yes, non-electrically.

I once kept milk fresh for 2 days in the trunk of a car in 90 degree heat by lining a box with newspaper. Which reminds me that books make terrific insulation.

Re: Need advice - How to live Non-Electrically
 

I love this thread! :thumb_yello:

Mountain Springhouses were purpose-built refrigerators
 

Where I grew up, a cold mountain spring was utilized as refrigeration, even after electric refrigerators came into common use. My Grandpa built an 8 X 10 block and brick building on top of the spring, which was captured in a trough of concrete that could hold gallons of fresh-made apple cider, or milk when the cows all came in at once, or handle 6 huge watermelons for a family gathering.

There were two parts to our spring. The main spring was damned up in a concrete catchment, maybe a six by six foot area. A concrete walkway was paved to connect to the main building described in the first paragraph.

This was kept super-clean, with a screened-in window and sturdy door. It maintained a constant temperature year-round that would have served as adequate refrigeration.

This temperate rainforest area, with 80+ inches of annual rainfall, is now experiencing a severe drought and record summer temperatures. Snowfall, when I was growing up, was steady and dependable. That has changed drastically over the last few years. I wonder if the Springhouse would be as dependable in future years.

BTW, lots of these ideas are captured in the FOXFIRE series, a journalism class started in my school, that is internationally known. My sister served as the first student editor, and my grandparents are featured in many of the earlier issues. www.foxfire.org Very in-depth articles teach homesteading skills which were passed from one generation to the next.

Re: Mountain Springhouses were purpose-built refrigerators
 

Thanks, Peace of mIne. I live in what used to be reliable farming country, but rain has definitely become a problem. Last year we had two solid months with no rain, in July and August, in the middle of the growing season. Many farmers couldn't grow enough hay to get their animals through the winter. So, yes, it's getting more difficult in many areas.

I was thinking about my wind-up kitchen timer and my wind-up clock. These work very nicely non-electrically. Is a hand-pump flashlight something similar? Anybody know how hand-pump flashlights work?

Thanks for the Foxfire reference. Many hours of research ahead!

Putting forth positive intent to create a completely dull and boring October.

Re: Need advice - How to live Non-Electrically
 

I am a newbie even to posting on forums, so I hope this is readable. I believe this concerning hydro generators. They are currently showing on you tube and websites how to build one of these, it is very simple. The problem seems to be that they can only create a small amount of brown gas(hydrogen). My thoughts go this way. If a small container that they show in these videos can produce upto 40% of the fuel needed to run a car engine, then building a much bigger container can supply more brown gas. So lets say the containers shown could only realisticly supply 10% ( this is just for example) of the fuel for a 150 horsepower engine. A container 10 times larger could supply 100% of the energy? except that would be to big for a car to carry around. The point I am trying to make is that even if there is a lose of created brown gas pretaining to size of container, you only need to power a 20 horse power engine to supply 100% of the fuel to turn a 200 amp generator, which is more than enough to power a house totally. I guess thats explains my thoughts, I hope it makes sense. Also if the first post stated above was stating that it was to big to be moblie, then he could build it in seires, using mulitable 50 gallon plastic durms, and fill them with water when you reach where ever

Re: Need advice - How to live Non-Electrically
 

Compensating for Doodah's video challenged computer:

Here is a link to Other Power's home built steam generator.
http://www.otherpower.com/steamengine.shtml



I also am intrigued by human and animal power.

Maya Pedal is a project to assist electricity challenged folks
in South America. They have done some magnificent work
making human powered machines that do everything from
making smoothies to pumping water

http://www.pedalpower.org/?q=maya_pedal
http://www.mayapedal.org/index.html

http://www.bikeroute.com/BentImagesF...albikepump.jpg

Animal powered treadmills are also an alternative

http://blog.makezine.com/dog-treadmill.jpg


The good news is you get the afternoon off.
The bad news is the Captain wants to water ski this morning...
http://is2.okcupid.com/users/140/704...1133913028.jpg

Re: Need advice - How to live Non-Electrically
 

The trouble with all these generator ideas are that they are completely off-topic. The OP was about living non-electrically !

Re: Need advice - How to live Non-Electrically
 

True, Anchor, that keeps happening here.

Baggywrinkle, thanks for the reference, photos and humor. A previous post of yours here about a setup for methane production shows pits with black plastic covers. I understand the prinicple in the use of the plastic, but don't want to use anything made from petroleum (ie plastic). The only other non-permeable materials that come to mind are glass, metal, and possibly glazed ceramic. Have you seen methane production using anything else but plastic?