Hey Dope Heads, Give it a Break!

[Steve_A]

Hi Everyone,

We've seen the situation on the US Mexican border with wars going on between the drug cartels to take and keep control of the drug market.

Years ago I heard the excuse of a drug pusher justifying his trade declaring that he only sells what his client wants. At that time I thought that it wasn't a very good justification until the other day when a 'pundit' on one of the news channels justified the sale of guns to Mexico using the same excuse.

So I'm using this same theory for this post. The other side to the logic is, if there is no market, there can be no sales, if there are no sales there can be no supplier.... and the list goes on, you know where I'm getting to.

It's also clear that 90% of drug sales in the US is for Marajuana, which is not an addictive drug - so users say.

The users know what's going on in the border towns. Do we suppose that dope users support and are in favour of the problems? Is the wasteful killing worth it for a toke? Are the users so egoist to let people die for their little high?

Health groups and Earth friendly groups talk about organic farming, healthy drinking water, buying politically correct coffee and tea, looking at labels on products to see if they are bio-organic-recyclable etc. and yet many individuals let people get slaughtered for their half hour high.

So here's the thing. Stop buying dope. Let the market dry up. If you really need to get a high, take a page out of Mathew Deloozes book and go to a place where it's legal (Holland, UK (not criminal), Brazil (not criminal), Peru etc.).

If the markets dry up so the problem will at least be reduced and can be managed easier.

Best regards,

Steve

It's criminal again now over here Steve.

I reckon the real solution is to legalise it. It's ludicrous that a plant can be made illegal anyway, and if people can grow it in their own back yard then instantly you signal the end of the marijuana cartels and all the crime associated with them.

Legalise weed and criminalise alcohol and we'd see a very different and much improved world

[Machinamentum]

Alright

Number one drug import from Mexico to America is meth. I don't care what the news says.

Swag is the majority of weed that comes up here from Mexico. Most potheads that I know, get dank weed, that pretty much is grown locally all over America. There is no reason to buy swag. There is no reason to buy meth, if people want it, they should be able to have a tweaked out life and die a tweaked out death.

As for drug markets drying up, that will never happen. Drugs have shamanic-spiritual lessons and are needed for proper evolution. That is why they are here. Some need em some don't, but don't hate em. Except for tweekers, they can be hated.

[Lorien]

Originally Posted by Machinamentum

Alright

Swag is the majority of weed that comes up here from Mexico. Most potheads that I know, get dank weed, that pretty much is grown locally all over America. There is no reason to buy swag. There is no reason to buy meth, if people want it, they should be able to have a tweaked out life and die a tweaked out death.

As for drug markets drying up, that will never happen. Drugs have shamanic-spiritual lessons and are needed for proper evolution. That is why they are here. Some need em some don't, but don't hate em. Except for tweekers, they can be hated.

Amen to that brotha! And yes, just like with most of my goods, I buy home grown marijuana, grown right in my home town.

[AussieG]

The questions I ask is
Why is it illegal?
Who benefits?
Who is generating a society where escapism is promoted?
Where is the money going?

[Machinamentum]

Drugs are illegal because society is more controllable that way. That's all.

Drugs are a very powerful tool for those who know how to operate drugs properly. Entheogenic drugs can instantly open the minds eye to realities that takes many many years of meditative practice to achieve.

They use bad drugs to make the good drugs look bad.

Originally Posted by AussieG

The questions I ask is
Why is it illegal?
Who benefits?
Who is generating a society where escapism is promoted?
Where is the money going?

1- Because Big Pharma has been unable to synthesise the active ingredient THC despite repeated and costly efforts.

2- Big Pharma and the Alcohol Industry primarily. Big Pharma through it's attacks on medical marijuana gets to push more toxic drugs and the Alcohol Industry because in my experience people who are smoking marijuana drink a lot less. And the governments of course because of the huge taxes they impose on legal drugs.

3- TPB ultimately because there's a lot of money in it and people on drugs do not make an effective opposition to them. The "work hard play hard" ethic doesn't leave much room for waking up and smelling the coffee. Control is most definitely a prime concern- look at how opium was used by the British govt against China in the 1800s.

4- TPB ultimately, both through taxes on the legal drugs like alcohol and tobacco to the various governments and the illegal international drugs rings primarily operated by the CIA and MI6. All that money goes to the banking families one way or another. Everything does eventually.

Zeddo's point about Afghanistan is spot on- the Taliban would not allow people to grow the poppys, but since the UK and US military was sent in opium output has skyrocketed. CIA/MI6 again, and all paid for by us.

Machinamentum is also correct about certain drugs / plants being here to teach us. Psychedelics / teacher plants (when used properly) can open the mind and soul to new possibilities and can increase our awareness of the innate connection to the divine that we all possess. That could well be the main reason than psilocybin, fly agaric, marijuana, salvia divinorum etc have come under such sustained attack from TPB. The LAST thing they want is a humanity conscious of its own divinity and power.

[Rainchild]

Originally Posted by AussieG

The questions I ask is
Why is it illegal?
Who benefits?
Who is generating a society where escapism is promoted?
Where is the money going?

Believe it or not making marijauna illegal actually benefits the drug cartels because there is more demand for it in that situation. This is simple supply and demand. By decriminalizing marijuana it becomes part of the market and can be more easily suppressed because it's out in the open. This is why the war on drugs is failing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pd_3H...e=channel_page

[alyscat]

late coming to this thread. Whether you buy weed or not, the killing will continue. I have friends who have moved out of Nuevo Larado, not because they're drug running, but because the crimelords are now having a great time with kidnapping. Her daughter was nearly dragged off the street by a kidnapper. It's not just drugs, it's greed.
alys

[Machinamentum]

Originally Posted by alyscat

It's not just drugs, it's greed.

BINGO

[Argante]

First of all... what an insulting, small minded, obviously baiting title for a thread.... especially from a moderator. I know we all have our opinions, but most try to avoid such insulting, immature posts.

Secondly, please feel free to write your elected Representatives and express your concern about this matter. I am sure the Brazil Government would be more than happy to listen to you seeing that they are the Country that your taxes go to.

There are many marijuana smokers that never buy or sell. They grow their own, thereby avoiding every slanted claim you have made in your op. Prohibition did not, and does not work. It's the making the substance illegal that brings in the criminal element.

By using your own logic... I will say that most of these murderers, kidnappers, and drug runners are males. Perhaps we should accuse all men of being drug lords and criminals. Perhaps we should have a law that makes it illegal for men to buy or own weapons, drive a vehicle, or be within fifty miles of the border. I am sure that would clear up the problem.

This OP is so obviously filled with anger and bias... I'm not even going to waste my time on it anymore. [/QUOTE]

[Iceman]

[Humble Janitor]

Actually Steve_A, the problem is NOT the drug cartels or violence but rather the mere fact that drugs are illegal in the first place.

Legalize drugs and the black market will dry up.

[cantaloupe]

The most serious problems are being caused by the meth labs that have moved south of the border due to the fact that raw materials are more tightly controlled here. We have outsourced one more industry and it's biting us on the ass. Though I agree that we can affect change by altering our habits it's not often easy with meth. Pot is only a small part of that problem because it is so abundantly produced right here at home.

[Dantheman62]

HaHa Steve A you got bashed hard dude! LOL, but he deleted it.

[Machinamentum]

Originally Posted by Dantheman62

HaHa Steve A you got bashed hard dude! LOL, but he deleted it.

I can't believe he did that!

That was a proper bashing.

[Dantheman62]

HaHa yeah Machinamentum,he should've left it, Steve's a big boy he can handle it.

[recallone]

Arm-chair quarterbacking and knee-jerk solutions that don't take into consideration all the facts really chap my ass.

'The War on Drugs' was manufactured as a means of making money. American C130s were flying cocaine into the U.S. out of Panama for a very long time. They provide a means of getting the drugs into the country so that they can have jobs to address the problem. This is 100% true, by the way.

The cure for cancer and aids ? They already exist. But there's no money in cures...only in research. Or 'wars'.

If it grows out of the ground, back the f#ck off and let a human commune with his planet in his or her own way. What's happening in Mexico is manufactured, same as so many other things. See through the headlines and rhetoric.

[Steve_A]

Hi Argante,

I took the liberty to replace your message in its' entirety. They say that first thoughts are the most honest and candid. I appreciate that. As dantheman62 said I am a big boy now and can handle my own.

In reply and with all due respect, I didn't think that the post was insulting nor immature. It was offering and leaving open for discussion a possible solution to the serious problem that is taking place on the US / Mexican border towns.

I was sent on a drugs awareness course when I worked as a projects manager for NACRO (National Association for the Care and Resettlement of Offenders) in the UK back in the 1980s and have seen so many excuses to justify use of skank, from "It doesn't give you a beer belly" to "It helps me reach my spirituality" more recently.

As we can see from almost all the posts in this thread, no-one is ready to give up their toke for a week or so in support of an idea, whether the idea is good or not, or will produce positive results or not.

For example, last Saturday was energy awareness day and the whole world was to turn off their electricity energy for one hour. Will this act change the face of the Earth? Probably not. Since then I haven't seen any great change. Have you? However millions of energy users did without to send a message.

When Live Aid was strong, people did without something to be able to donate money to the cause. Did that act change their lives? I imagine not much. However the important thing is they took part to make a statement.

There are millions of blood and organ donors that give up their body. Does that change their lives. No. But also they are saying something important.

If a consumer does not agree with the politics of a company they stop buying that companys' product and will buy from another company, even if it isn't the same product. They are taking a stand and are beginning to change the way commerce sees the world.

The list is endless.

However this thread, far from being childish is searching for the willingness to find solutions to problems.

It is not for me to comment too much about the replies to this thread, other readers will draw up their own conclusion.

My job has been done in opening the subject for discussion.

Best regards,

Steve

Originally Posted by Argante

First of all... what an insulting, small minded, obviously baiting title for a thread.... especially from a moderator. I know we all have our opinions, but most try to avoid such insulting, immature posts.

Secondly, please feel free to write your elected Representatives and express your concern about this matter. I am sure the Brazil Government would be more than happy to listen to you seeing that they are the Country that your taxes go to.

[Argante]

You had no right to replace a message that a user deleted or removed. Then to add insult to injury... you wrote your words into my post so that others think I wrote something I did not! You had no right to alter my post with your own words.... so not only did you reinstate it against my wishes, you rewrote it too!! WTF!!

This is why Avalon is ridiculed by other forums... the inexperience, partiality, and immaturity of it's moderators who throw their weight around for their own satisfaction instead of for the good of the forum.

That you are moderating a thread in which you are posting is unheard of on such a large site, and goes against the first BASIC rule of moderating...

DO NOT MODERATE YOUR OWN THREAD

I removed my post because I found it to be too angry. I knew if I took the time to cool down and rewrite it, I would present my reply far more clearly. It was my choice... not yours. It is only your EGO that makes you think I removed my post for you... I know we have never really gotten along, but for you to use your moderator advantage to push your own point of view is, in my opinion, proof that you need more instruction on how to moderate.

Does anybody on this forum even follow Project Camelot anymore? The interviews are barely discussed. The Major Announcements are not even commented on. The Witness area is a joke. Instead it has become a forum for "news of the weird" or money making "gloom and doomers".

WAKE UP AVALON!!

DON'T LET THESE YAHOO'S MODERATE THEIR OPINIONS DOWN YOUR THROAT.

It is so sad what Avalon has become. Does anybody even remember what Avalon was supposed to be?

Originally Posted by Steve_A

Hi Argante,

I took the liberty to replace your message in its' entirety. They say that first thoughts are the most honest and candid. I appreciate that. As dantheman62 said I am a big boy now and can handle my own.
<snip>
Steve

[Steve_A]

Hi Argante,

I'm really sorry that you are upset because of your experience in this thread, it certainly wasn't my intent, nor the intent of Project Avalon.

However, I feel it important to advise you that legally, once a message is posted in the forum, it becomes part of the forum, deleted or not (every forum uses the same policy Avalon, ATS, Open Minds etc.).

Check out the FAQ page about editing messages. "Administrators and moderators may also edit your messages".

I only reinstated your message, nothing more. There is nothing more I can add as the code doesn't allow me.

In my reply I cut most of what you put to keep the text to a minimum.

Others on the forum had already seen your comments so the comments were no secret. If you're going to call a spade a spade, call it.

As for moderating my own thread, I am allowed to do so. What I can't do is remove text of others to reinforce my point or to sway the opinion of others.

If you are not satisfied with the service by me, or others of this forum, enter in contact with site admin. They are here for this sort of thing.

The forum is used not only and exclusively o discuss Project Camelot inerviews. Once again you are invited to read the FAQ page of the forum.

Best regards,

Steve

Originally Posted by Argante

You had no right to replace a message that a user deleted or removed. Then to add insult to injury... you wrote your words into my post so that others think I wrote something I did not! You had no right to alter my post with your own words.... so not only did you reinstate it against my wishes, you rewrote it too!! WTF!!

[Argante]

On my message, at the bottom you wrote...

"that's exacting what i was thinking......you guys do realize that Mexico is one the biggest suppler of coke, heron, Meth,,,,,I don't know in you guys ever smoked mexican weed before but it is not very good so l don't really see much of a market for it...but what do i know"

I did not write it... and you say you didn't... so who did?

[Argante]

I am very aware of the TOS Steve... that you are moderating your own thread to suit your whims, that you are posting words in my post that I did not write. is just wrong.

I know that you are wrong, you know it too... why should I go running to the Collin about this when IT IS YOUR JOB TO MAKE IT RIGHT! You already know where you screwed up, you already know what needs to be done to fix it... it's just that you never could admit that you screwed up. Instead you manipulate the members posts and hide behind the TOS to cover up your mistake.

I watched you do this to members who disagreed with you when I was a moderator here. It is one of the main reasons why we never got along. I am sure you find your type of moderating as creative... I find it manipulative, immature, and dishonest. Unfortunately... you also represent Avalon.

[Steve_A]

Hi Argante,

Once again your message was already in public domain. Have I not the right to see it as it was commented on and directed to me and relevant to the discussion?

You will notice that the end of your message has the [/quote] sign. The other text is not mine. With all due respect, my English is a lot better than that. I will remove it right away. I will also look for the source.
If the terms of service allow me to edit posts I am NOT doing anything wrong.
I'm sorry if you feel so.

I have never made any editions of people who do not agree with me. Ever. I have merely openly discussed our differences. It's for the onlooker to arrive at their own conclusions. I don't need to edit posts to justify my argument.

What is the point of a forum for discussions if there is no discussion?

Unfortunately if people don't agree with my opinions they tend to take cheap shots as their side of the argument. What can you do?

I respresent proudly the Avalon forum. You're right.

Best regards,

Steve

Originally Posted by Argante

I am very aware of the TOS Steve... that you are moderating your own thread to suit your whims, that you are posting words in my post that I did not write. is just wrong.

I know that you are wrong, you know it too... why should I go running to the Collin about this when IT IS YOUR JOB TO MAKE IT RIGHT! You already know where you screwed up, you already know what needs to be done to fix it... it's just that you never could admit that you screwed up. Instead you manipulate the members posts and hide behind the TOS to cover up your mistake.

I watched you do this to members who disagreed with you when I was a moderator here. It is one of the main reasons why we never got along. I am sure you find your type of moderating as creative... I find it manipulative, immature, and dishonest. Unfortunately... you also represent Avalon.

[recallone]

This is just plain embarrassing that anyone should have to explain this to you, but here goes..

"...has been agreed on both sides of the border, by politicians, police and public alike"
You're a moderator on a website that regularly uncovers the lies of politicians, police and the media and you're standing on a soapbox about their merits?! Are you for real?

I know that everybody watching this thread is shaking their head at your back-pedaling and complete oblivion to the obvious factors involved in this topic, so let me explain it real slow for you - politicians are compensated financially to pass laws that give big business leverage in making more money with almost complete disregard for the rights and safety of the population.

Your point about the electric car went straight above my head. To me it made absolutely no sense to the topic in this thread. will you explain it in another way?

The reason why I mentioned the electric car and the oil industry was to illustrate for you how big business and government are in cahoots with one another. You're repeating what you must have picked up on Fox news or something about how marijuana is the root of the problem that Mexico is facing, and therefore we must divide ourselves further by alienating these deviants that are okay with people dying for their little recreational toke, as you so aptly put it. Does that sound about right to you? Or has it occurred to you that the war on drugs is just another excuse to ramp up the military industrial complex? Hmmmmmmmmmm?

Have I suggested that home growers are responsible for the Mexico problem? I don't think so.

No, you just issued a blanket statement to include ALL who use.

Is the wasteful killing worth it for a toke? Are the users so egoist to let people die for their little high?

I don't have the time to provide you with a list of links to show you how the 'Drug War' is financed by the same people that fight it, but maybe someone else with more patience will enlighten you. I don't have any left at this point.

Once again, I'm really suprised that pot smokers defend themselves to the bitter end, even those who have nothing to do with the subject matter in hand. Must be the paranoia that cannabis gives one after prolonged use.

Don't you think your little back-handed accusations and insults are transparent? They are to me, and I'm embarrassed to see you employing the same kind of tactic the PTB uses in swaying people's opinions - not with fact, but with innuendo. Whether or not I, or anyone else discussing this topic smokes marijuana is besides the point. If you don't think people have a right to smoke what they can grow from the ground, that's your opinion. But trying to lay the responsibility of all that suffering at the feet of pot smokers is about as laughable as jet fuel bringing down the twin towers.

I'm done.
Peace