Cliff High view on Bill Ryans accusations

[chitty]

Originally Posted by Excalibur

i think PC should present the evidence and let people draw their own conclusions. I thought that was the intent of PC? Maybe I'm missing something. There is no need to 'endorse' anyone in particular. That is a road that leads to trouble and blowback. If tany whistleblower speaks truth, it will stand on its own. If disinfo, people will eventually see through it or something will leak out. Personally, I don't trust Dr. Deagle, or 'Dr. Pete Peterson' for that matter...I choose not to listen to them. Clif High on the other hand, is someone I do trust.

Ditto

[mkspllmn]

If Bill Ryan and Cliff High are fighting publicly on this forum is it any wonder that the members fight amongst themselves?

[Seburo]

Dr. Bill Deagle puts my ******** meter in the red zone, yes some of his stories may corroborate with others, and yes he may hold the title of "Dr.", but the many of his claims are so far out very few can be scientifically validated. The oddest thing about Dr. Deagle is that he's coincidentally had a part in nearly all major conspiracies for the last 30+ years; this understanding alone sets off a ginormous red flag. Now I'm not saying everything word out of Deagles mouth is a lie, but Clif's suspicion on Deagle's credibility is well warranted.

A few links I found through Google regarding Bill Deagle's lack of credibility:
http://www.christianissues.com/updates.html - Post Dated 10/9/09
http://www.ripoffreport.com/suppleme...agle-2e2e8.htm
http://swallowingthecamel.blogspot.c.../02/dr_27.html
http://www.christianmediaresearch.com/billdeagle.html

This public record shows a clear revocation of Deagle's medical license "as recommended by Administrative Law Judge" from the state of Colorado:
https://www.doradls.state.co.us/alis...kwNTAz&t_o_p=0


A thought provoking thread making swiss cheese out of Mr. Deagles "credentials":
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread434552/pg1

EDIT:
On the other hand Deagle does have a few filed patents, one specifically under Dynatens Research Corporation which gives some credibility to his claims.
http://www.google.com/patents?q=Will...Search+Patents
http://www.patentstorm.us/search.htm....x=0&s.y=0&s=s - I double checked =)

Though I can't find Mr. Deagle as a registered physician in all of Canada which strikes me as odd (I went through all the records of the College of Physicians and Surgeons of each province.)


...waits for the Medical Board of California physician license lookup to stop doing maintenance... Update: No Record Found.
http://www.medbd.ca.gov/lookup.html

Edit2: Nutrimedical is registered to a house.... 1995 Quail View Drive, Vista, CA‎
http://maps.google.com/maps?oe=utf-8...h&z=19&iwloc=A


Please note that all information gathered has been through the use of the Google search engine and is in no way, shape, or form divulging any information on Dr. William Deagle that isn't already in public access.
----
Regards,
SeburoX43 - http://www.youtube.com/user/SeburoX43

[YinYangMind]

Seburo,

Excellent post! I hope Bill & Kerry check out the links you provided. If they had done some of the research you did, perhaps they'd have a different opinion!

I, like others here, didn't have a good feeling about Deagle while listening to or after the interview. While I greatly appreciate Bill & Kerry's work and effort, they do have a certain responsibility to perform better due diligence with their approach and presentation of those they interview. It's interesting to see how some guests are pilloried while others are given a free pass without proper skepticism.

It's obvious that Bill needs to 'man up' and take responsibility for the slanderous **** he's thrown at Clif...and he keeps saying he 'found the email from Clif' that supposedly backs up his initial claim but never produces the damn thing!

Makes you wonder what's going on...

Peace,

YinYangMind

[sjkted]

Originally Posted by YinYangMind

Excellent post! I hope Bill & Kerry check out the links you provided. If they had done some of the research you did, perhaps they'd have a different opinion!

I, like others here, didn't have a good feeling about Deagle while listening to or after the interview. While I greatly appreciate Bill & Kerry's work and effort, they do have a certain responsibility to perform better due diligence with their approach and presentation of those they interview. It's interesting to see how some guests are pilloried while others are given a free pass without proper skepticism.

This is largely the conundrum I have with Avalon and Camelot. Overall, I like Bill and Kerry. For a long while I questioned with they were CIA operatives. Today, I don't think they are but I remain a little skeptical about some of their influences and sources of funding. I enjoyed the Burisch interviews, although much in the same way I might enjoy a Star Trek movie. In other words, the facts involved have absolutely no bearing on my reality except for entertainment.

My problem was that when the forum turned paid, I was unwilling to support these types of interviews. My other issue was that as a paying member, I would no longer be an Avalon guest or viewer, but a customer, and as a customer, I didn't want to be paying for disinfo. I felt somewhat disillusioned by the fact that Bill and Kerry didn't seem very interested in listening to or being attentive to their customers. I applaud Bill for his recent thread to be attentive to what everyone is saying and asking. I think it is most appropriate that PA/PC are supported by their members by donations and also by selling some type of merchandise(?) or products/exclusive services, but in order for skeptics such as myself that Bill and Kerry (or even someone in a new position like operations manager) be more responsive to the members and their concerns about particular whistleblowers.

--sjkted

[truth and integrity]

Has anyone else noticed he has calmed down quite a bit and seems to be awakening himself to the spiritual side of things?

Yes. I have noticed this. I could see how David Icke inspired him. Alex has shown his strenghts when he openly appologized to David Icke for calling him opportunistic or misinfo. David has integrity and inner strenghts, and it was not an issue for him. I have noticed that Alex has changed since he has built relationships with David. There are people who bring the worst in us and those who bring the best. David brings the best.

Best regards,

[THE eXchanger]

WE all need to get on one side of these boulders - and, PUSH !!!

[Zeddo]

Originally Posted by truth and integrity

Yes. I have noticed this. I could see how David Icke inspired him. Alex has shown his strenghts when he openly appologized to David Icke for calling him opportunistic or misinfo. David has integrity and inner strenghts, and it was not an issue for him. I have noticed that Alex has changed since he has built relationships with David. There are people who bring the worst in us and those who bring the best. David brings the best.

Best regards,

My personal opinion is that I owe David so much in my journey to waking up. I hold him in high esteem and that is a position I give to very very few people. There has been so much BS going on we've had to have the wipers going full tilt to keep it out of our eyes for some time now and all the while David has remained constant. He is the true whistle blower.....the "whistle-blowers" whistle blower, if you will.
I enjoy Alex a lot too, full of enthusiasm and while we jabber and complain, he is out there "doing the stuff". When I do a 10th of what he does, I might start to be happy that I am indeed doing anything at all.

As for the rest, I'll leave everyone else to do the dissecting as I don't want to go there.....Oh yes, I really get a good vibe from Michael ST Claire also and I really don't care too much what anyone else has to say about him. He definitely resonates with me.

LL&P

Z

[truth and integrity]

Listen to Bill's last interview....FANTASTIC!

I felt that Bill has just hijacked David Icke's work, even though he quoted him again and again.I would rather listen to Bill's own insights than to "David Icke said" Maybe this is my issue but I always protect people whom I respect and love deeply. I love and respect David Icke very much.

Best regards,

[madgolem]

I'm glad everyone is on the same boat and came to an agreement that deagle and burish are disinfo agents and kudos to Cliff for coming up with it and telling everyone to do their own research. Also Miriam Delicado seems to be a shill in her CoasttoCoast dec 22 interview as the comments on youtube indicates she has nothing of value when she speaks.

Conclusion deagle and burish are disinfo agents. miriam delicado is a shill looking to sell her book. PC lost their integrity about 18 months ago when they ignored everyone's warning about deagle and burish. At least they admitted leo zagami was a disinfo agent.

[Carol]

Both I and my husband listened to Miriam Delicado on Coast. First he was put off because she had said she had promised not to say anything about what the Hopi had shared with her but she thought they were wrong and she would share anyway. He thought her credibility went down the toilet with that comment that went out to millions of people. And he also realized that she talked, and talked, and talked without really saying anything we weren't already aware of. I suspect she is a nice person but she isn't the type of speaker I would spend any more time listening to because I don't find value in what she has to offer - specifically meaning, there isn't anything new being shared... it's all old hat.

As for Cliff High. I like Cliff but also have some reservations based on specific things he has said. He was a real supporter of Patrick Geryl and I tend to lean more toward the scientific presentation of LaViolette. When listening to Geryl I wonder where is the scientific method that he used to come up with his conslusions. As Cliff really likes Geryl it makes me wonder a bit about Cliff and his data. I suspect that Cliff's work was pretty much on target when they first started off but wondered if it has been contaminated by how fast info flows across the net and if their data gets out to compromise their data collection results. Irrespective of some of the confusing data collection I still enjoy listening to Cliff talk.

[ramallamamama]

Originally Posted by DAYDREAMER

Whenever there have been questions about Bill Deagle and Dan Burisch on Camelot, I have said that they are both disinfo agents and I have come to that conclusion by watching almost all of their videos and reading their testimonies (tall stories). In fact I distincly remember both of them (conspiring together no doubt) together in one video that was quite old, cause they looked 10 years younger at least, where they were talking on a radio show of Deagle's, talking their nonsense.

They have both managed to take advantage of Bill and Kerry and gained their trust by misleading them and then being presented to Project Camelot's followers as trustworthy whistleblowers. I also believe that Arthur Neumann (Henry Deacon) is conspiring with them to mislead PC, after seeing him in their European conference tour and being very unimpressed with the little that he had to say and Bill Ryan claiming his info was the same as other whistleblowers like Burisch.

How can Bill be convinced to question what these people are saying?


Deagle and Burisch have been around for a while now and nothing they have said adds up or any predictions been accurate. Deagle has been saying things about prison camps in the USA for probably more than a decade.

Why should Bill disregard information about Deagle that is proof of his untrustworthyness? It has to be taken into consideration. He also fails to question Burisch after what he did recently, breaking ties with PC...

I don't mean to say anything bad towards Bill Ryan, just that in my opinion as a faithful PC supporter and follower think that he should be more careful when dealing with people claiming to be real whistleblowers and not be too easily trusting. If there is any doubt from himself or from what others have experienced with these whistleblowers, then it is certainly prudent to not believe all that they say and to look into and investigate them.

Hi DAYDREAMER,

I missed the Burisch confab, do you have a link?

Thanks!

[DAYDREAMER]

@RAMALLAMAMAMA

The video I saw of Deagle and Burisch, I saw about a year ago. Somewhere on youtube probably. Deagle has a radio show I think it's called Clay and Iron. The video is of the 2 of them in the radio studio and they were a lot younger. Deagle was much thinner, thats for sure. They know each other well is what I was trying to infer, and it leads me to believe that they are working together in providing disinformation.

If you wanted to know about Burisch's break with PC, you will find info on this forum.

Anyway, here is another video that was easy to find with Cliff High talking to a caller of his show about Burisch and a bit about Deagle, that is relevant to this discussion.



http://vodpod.com/watch/2071558-vide...e-not-credible


and here is a page exposing Burisch that I found on a link from the Project Avalon forum long after I came to my own conclusions about Dan Burisch: http://www.ufowatchdog.com/burischdirtbag.html

[ramallamamama]

Originally Posted by DAYDREAMER

@RAMALLAMAMAMA

The video I saw of Deagle and Burisch, I saw about a year ago. Somewhere on youtube probably. Deagle has a radio show I think it's called Clay and Iron. The video is of the 2 of them in the radio studio and they were a lot younger. Deagle was much thinner, thats for sure. They know each other well is what I was trying to infer, and it leads me to believe that they are working together in providing disinformation.

If you wanted to know about Burisch's break with PC, you will find info on this forum.

Anyway, here is another video that was easy to find with Cliff High talking to a caller of his show about Burisch and a bit about Deagle, that is relevant to this discussion.



http://vodpod.com/watch/2071558-vide...e-not-credible


and here is a page exposing Burisch that I found on a link from the Project Avalon forum long after I came to my own conclusions about Dan Burisch: http://www.ufowatchdog.com/burischdirtbag.html

Thank you, DAYDREAMER.

[TruthWillSetUFree]

Originally Posted by Phtha

My opinions on this.. if anyone cares.

Calling people (in this case Cliff) "dumb" and "idiot" as Bill has done in both his original post and his response is an action fueled by ego for the ego. Insults do not exist otherwise.

It worked as cliff had to defend himself, and who can blame him?

Both Cliff and Bill are voices I respect and I find it unfortunate that people who are on the same side (at least on the surface) are turning against one another.

This is of course... the old divide and conquer. So my question is, who is the third party who has started this ancient wheel to turn? There is one involved, have no doubt. Is it Deagle himself? I dare not guess....

I also don't agree with Bills stance on defending his whistleblowers. I think the whistle blowers words should speak for themselves, and they (thanks to the internet) have many methods to defend themselves should the need arise.

Love you guys both! But I really think there is a 3rd here causing this friction... is it ever any other way?

Very well written post phtha, I concur wholeheartedly.

Actually, this was the question I posed to Bill Ryan on his thread about disinfo and Bill Deagle specifically.

I still stand by the very wise words "By their fruits you shall know them"

Bill Deagle has shown himself to have rotten fruits.

When I first saw the Granada Forum video 2 years ago, I liked and admired Bill Deagle. Now, since I have been following him and his 'work', not only am I less fond of him, I do not believe a word that comes out of his mouth.

I did not like what he did to Jane Burgermeister, at that time involving Dr True Ott, by pasting an unfortunate woman's picture inside a youtube video saying all kinds of nasty things about her just because she was having such an impact in the conspiracy community and making a name for herself, which btw, she was not intending to do as her intent was always to help humanity by getting out the information.

Thank God Bill Ryan did the interview on Jane which, again IMO, really showed who she is as a decent human being sticking her neck out to help the rest of us.

No, I will not listen to Deagle again, especially since whenever/where ever he is involved, there will always be separation, chaos, disinformation, fear mongering and strife between good people.

Bill and Clif are good people. I hope Bill begins to see who Deagle truly is and what his motives are.

I don't know what kind of spell Deagle holds over some who are so mesmerized by him, I don't get it at all.

Truth

[DiVineEnvy]

Originally Posted by TruthWillSetUFree

...Bill Deagle has shown himself to have rotten fruits... I did not like what he did to Jane Burgermeister, at that time involving Dr True Ott, by pasting an unfortunate woman's picture inside a youtube video saying all kinds of nasty things about her just because she was having such an impact in the conspiracy community and making a name for herself, which btw, she was not intending to do as her intent was always to help humanity by getting out the information.

Thank God Bill Ryan did the interview on Jane which, again IMO, really showed who she is as a decent human being sticking her neck out to help the rest of us.

Agreed. What Deagle did to 'character assassinate' Jane Burgermeister was rotten beyond belief. I simply stopped listening to him after that.

[Steve_A]

Hi Phtha,

The Camelot Website was set upto INTERVIEW people and let them get their story out.

More recently the site carried a disclaimer saying that the site owners do not necessarily agree with everything being said.

This last six months or so, both site owners have been stepping beyond the bounds of the object of the site, with criticisms of several 'professionals' of the area.

My area of profession is music. I would never say to another professional musician that I think they're ****. I would just keep quiet and say nothing. It's the politically correct thing to do within the professional area (even because you will get more enemies than friends if you're caught slagging people off publicly).

I think the Camelot name this year has had it rough and it may be a good idea to assess damage control to make 2010 better for the 'brand'.

Best regards,

Steve

Originally Posted by Phtha

My opinions on this.. if anyone cares.

Calling people (in this case Cliff) "dumb" and "idiot" as Bill has done in both his original post and his response is an action fueled by ego for the ego. Insults do not exist otherwise.

It worked as cliff had to defend himself, and who can blame him?

Both Cliff and Bill are voices I respect and I find it unfortunate that people who are on the same side (at least on the surface) are turning against one another.

This is of course... the old divide and conquer. So my question is, who is the third party who has started this ancient wheel to turn? There is one involved, have no doubt. Is it Deagle himself? I dare not guess....

I also don't agree with Bills stance on defending his whistleblowers. I think the whistle blowers words should speak for themselves, and they (thanks to the internet) have many methods to defend themselves should the need arise.

Love you guys both! But I really think there is a 3rd here causing this friction... is it ever any other way?

[Carol]

Originally Posted by Steve_A

Hi Phtha,

The Camelot Website was set upto INTERVIEW people and let them get their story out.

More recently the site carried a disclaimer saying that the site owners do not necessarily agree with everything being said.

This last six months or so, both site owners have been stepping beyond the bounds of the object of the site, with criticisms of several 'professionals' of the area.

My area of profession is music. I would never say to another professional musician that I think they're ****. I would just keep quiet and say nothing. It's the politically correct thing to do within the professional area (even because you will get more enemies than friends if you're caught slagging people off publicly).

I think the Camelot name this year has had it rough and it may be a good idea to assess damage control to make 2010 better for the 'brand'.

Best regards,

Steve

Steve, I agree. Trashing other professionals is crass and generally stems from those who are caught up in ego. Being humble is a goal worthy to aspire to.

[franciejones]

He escalated it in my opinion to refute your comments on this forum AND in an email that you sent to me which I did not request from you. I forwarded to Clif what you had said in the email...unedited ofcourse and he chose to reply on his site. I will post the email here for others to read.

Originally Posted by Bill Ryan

Actually, the thread title should be Bill Ryan on Clif High's accusations!

I was appreciative that Clif posted my original message correct and unchanged.

(Please do read it carefully, by the way.)

It had been a reply to a question on the Bill Ryan thread, asking why Clif had stated publicly that Bill Deagle was a paid agent. So I answered the question, because that was the purpose of the thread.

Clif was correct about my getting the 'PI' wrong. That was my error. The rest of what I wrote was essentially correct.

The substantive issue is that Clif was trying to smear a whistleblower for reasons best known to himself, and was searching for information he could use to discredit him. For me, that's an integrity issue.

What I'd called a PI [Private Investigator] was described in the original e-mail (sent to me on 14 April) by Clif as a "researcher/detective". This person was NOT hired by him. My mistake, and I'm happy to correct that.

Meanwhile, Clif's reason for escalating this issue publicly was - I'm as sure as I can be - an excuse to raise the profile of his allegations against Bill Deagle. So I will not be wrestling with him anywhere.

But I'll make this simple response here (or else people will wonder why I'm not saying anything) - and then Clif can shout from the rooftops if he wants to make an idiot of himself.

The issue is this. We will protect Camelot whistleblowers against smears and innuendo. If not us, then who? This is our job and is one of the reasons Camelot exists.

If someone wants to create a wonderful new world by raking through the personal finances of someone they disagree with without directly facing to the person they're trying to make a case against, then I suggest that this is not the direction to take to create a new civilization.

It sounds terribly like the old one to me.

Very best wishes to all - Bill

______

Note:

* For me the issue feels closed, and the above is a pretty good statement of where I stand.
* I won't be visiting this thread again. You're welcome to ask me questions on the Bill Ryan thread, and I'll answer them. The reason for this is simply limited time - I can only reasonably monitor one long thread on the forum, and it's helpful for members to have just one place where they can find me. So please forgive me if this is my only post here.
--Cheers, B

[YinYangMind]

Originally Posted by franciejones

He escalated it in my opinion to refute your comments on this forum AND in an email that you sent to me which I did not request from you. I forwarded to Clif what you had said in the email...unedited ofcourse and he chose to reply on his site. I will post the email here for others to read.

Curious, how could someone be 'banned' and still post?!?

Very strange indeed...the mystery thickens...

[YinYangMind]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Ryan
Actually, the thread title should be Bill Ryan on Clif High's accusations!

I was appreciative that Clif posted my original message correct and unchanged.

(Please do read it carefully, by the way.)

It had been a reply to a question on the Bill Ryan thread, asking why Clif had stated publicly that Bill Deagle was a paid agent. So I answered the question, because that was the purpose of the thread.

Clif was correct about my getting the 'PI' wrong. That was my error. The rest of what I wrote was essentially correct.

The substantive issue is that Clif was trying to smear a whistleblower for reasons best known to himself, and was searching for information he could use to discredit him. For me, that's an integrity issue.

What I'd called a PI [Private Investigator] was described in the original e-mail (sent to me on 14 April) by Clif as a "researcher/detective". This person was NOT hired by him. My mistake, and I'm happy to correct that.

Meanwhile, Clif's reason for escalating this issue publicly was - I'm as sure as I can be - an excuse to raise the profile of his allegations against Bill Deagle. So I will not be wrestling with him anywhere.

But I'll make this simple response here (or else people will wonder why I'm not saying anything) - and then Clif can shout from the rooftops if he wants to make an idiot of himself.

The issue is this. We will protect Camelot whistleblowers against smears and innuendo. If not us, then who? This is our job and is one of the reasons Camelot exists.

If someone wants to create a wonderful new world by raking through the personal finances of someone they disagree with without directly facing to the person they're trying to make a case against, then I suggest that this is not the direction to take to create a new civilization.

It sounds terribly like the old one to me.

Very best wishes to all - Bill

______

Note:

* For me the issue feels closed, and the above is a pretty good statement of where I stand.
* I won't be visiting this thread again. You're welcome to ask me questions on the Bill Ryan thread, and I'll answer them. The reason for this is simply limited time - I can only reasonably monitor one long thread on the forum, and it's helpful for members to have just one place where they can find me. So please forgive me if this is my only post here.
--Cheers, B

Does this read like a private email to anyone here? If it's the response to the original message that Bill sent to franciejones who in turn sent it to Clif who then posted it and his reply to Bill, then it's becoming more and more clear that the post original email actions and responses have been the work of childish ego-centric minds not interested in truth or integrity.

More Payton Place to me...somebody needs to clean the castle!

YinYangMind

[truth and integrity]

Bill Ryan asked her not to post it. franciejones posted it. I removed it and the other mods and I discussed this behavior, all were in agreement. It had nothing to due with the subject being discussed.

I have a big problem here. Bill forwarded to francie a private e-mail sent by Cliff. As he asked francie not to post it indicates that he did not asked Cliff’s permission. So he asked francie to keep a secret, be dishonest, and not to post an e-mail. When francie refused to play his game she was banned. So Bill can be unethical and dishonest as he wishes because he owns this website. But people who want to have their integrity keep intact are banned? Are we not playing the same game of those who want to rule us?

Best regards,

[Majorion]

Originally Posted by truth and integrity

I have a big problem here. Bill forwarded to francie a private e-mail sent by Cliff. As he asked francie not to post it indicates that he did not asked Cliff’s permission. So he asked francie to keep a secret, be dishonest, and not to post an e-mail. When francie refused to play his game she was banned. So Bill can be unethical and dishonest as he wishes because he owns this website. But people who want to have their integrity keep intact are banned? Are we not playing the same game of those who want to rule us?

Best regards,

Frankly, if I had a private conversation with someone, an email no less, and that someone suddenly decided to go against my wishes clearly and post our personal exchanges on a forum belonging to myself, you bet I'd ban them too.

Besides, I don't think Bill was even involved with this decision, it seems to have been a staff consensus based on simple forum rules.

I've seen a lot of people on different forums get banned for truly nefarious reasons, but I'm sorry to say, this definitely ain't one of them.

[Carol]

I still don't see where francie did anything wrong. Dood was correct as Bill did not have an agreement with francie about not posting her email from him ~ which was unsolicited by francie. Last year when one of the mods ousted a witness and even contacted the FBI to make a report against him, Kerry did not ban that mod.

The reality is that if something is posted and the person involved (Bill) made a complaint, then the offending member is asked in a PM by a mod to delete the offending post. Did Bill make a complaint against francie (who he had high enough regard for to request she be a moderator)? Was francie contacted and asked to delete her post? Was it also approved of by Bill, as he is the other person involved?

I think these questions are pertinent to the issue, as clearly an injustice has occurred in the minds of other members here.

This is not about an issue of trust or betrayal. Bill never asked for an agreement from francie not to post what he wrote to her before sending his email. He is also well aware of francie's nature and knows her well enough that her being open with others about what was shared was a risk he took in sending her his email. Subsequently, with no prior agreement there is no betrayal of trust.

Both Bill and Kerry from the onset have promoted transparency when it comes to communication and both have had total freedom to express their personal opinions. Why is that not allowed for the members of the forum? Or am I missing something here?

[truth and integrity]

Frankly, if I had a private conversation with someone, an email no less, and that someone suddenly decided to go against my wishes clearly and post our personal exchanges on a forum belonging to myself, you bet I'd ban them too.

Besides, I don't think Bill was even involved with this decision, it seems to have been a staff consensus based on simple forum rules.

I've seen a lot of people on different forums get banned for truly nefarious reasons, but I'm sorry to say, this definitely ain't one of them.

You have missed my point. Before we can talk about Bill and francie we have to go back to Bill and Cliff. Did Bill get Cliff’s permission to forward Cliff’s private messages? No, he did not. Therefore, he asked francie not to post it and keep a secret.

Best regards,