Poor Gary Mckinnon

[leeboy]

Originally Posted by murnut

1)All humans are equal under the law.

You and Gary want to choose what laws you choose to obey.

Flaw #1


2) Knowledge is power if obtained lawfully, that is if it does not infringe the rights of others.

Knowledge obtained via poisoned fruit is worthless.

The road to disclosure cannot be built on lies.

Flaw #2

YES your right knowledge IS power
Why do you think the powers that be are the only ones with knowledge. You seem to be arguing for arguments sake and straying away from the main topic of this thread.
You keep slating the ufo community yet you purport to be a believer, doesnt that make you a member of said community or are you more equal than the rest of us in your ability to disseminate fact from fiction?
DO you honestly think that we have no rights to information which may very well change our perception of each other, the earth, and the universe? I personally feel that given the fact that the only people with ths information are the military then we should certainly:
A) be worried over their ultimate intent with this knowledge
B) question why they feel they are the only ones capable of understanding and dealing with this information
or are we the ones asking questions and wanting answers ( THE UFO COMMUNITY) lesser people to them that keep us in the dark for their own benifits.

[murnut]

Originally Posted by leeboy

YES your right knowledge IS power
Why do you think the powers that be are the only ones with knowledge. You seem to be arguing for arguments sake and straying away from the main topic of this thread.
You keep slating the ufo community yet you purport to be a believer, doesnt that make you a member of said community or are you more equal than the rest of us in your ability to disseminate fact from fiction?
DO you honestly think that we have no rights to information which may very well change our perception of each other, the earth, and the universe? I personally feel that given the fact that the only people with ths information are the military then we should certainly:
A) be worried over their ultimate intent with this knowledge
B) question why they feel they are the only ones capable of understanding and dealing with this information
or are we the ones asking questions and wanting answers ( THE UFO COMMUNITY) lesser people to them that keep us in the dark for their own benifits.

I merely responded to what was asked of me.

Certainly there much that is being kept from us...I don't like it.

But I have to ask myself, in the absence of any proof, what it is I actually believe is occurring.

Yes there is a phenomena that occurs that is unexplained to this point.

Yes, govts have secret projects, secret flying devices etc.

There is no right to know what these are, unfortunately.

Govts may have recovered crashed vehicles.

But beyond that, what is really known?

I would venture a guess that the govt knows far less about the phenomena than most here would believe.

If the govt "came clean", many here will not believe that the govt knows very little about what has occurred.

They cannot answer even the most basic questions, beyond a few.

It is a lose-lose situation for them.

Personally, I don't need disclosure.

I think that it fair to say, whatever is disclosed won't be the truth.

I don't need the govt to disclose to me that God exists, so what's the point?

Disclosure happens on a personal level....at least it did for me.

The govt is not responsible for what I choose to believe or not.

It is fine to ask questions....but it is up to the individual to find answers for themselves.

As far as how this relates to Gary...... in my opinion, he saw nothing.

Why would they crash a plane, when he could have been silenced before you ever heard his name?

The biggest secrets are not hooked up to the internet...never have been.

Gary uses the ufo community for sympathy, and the ufo community uses Gary as a push towards disclosure.

Too bad neither side is being truthful about its intentions.

[TheGhost]

"The govt is not responsible for what I choose to believe or not. "

If the government is suppressing information and/or putting out disinformation, they ARE responsible for shaping your beliefs, to an extent.

[TheGhost]

"Gary...... in my opinion, he saw nothing."

What Gary was likely to have seen would probably be the military versions / military applications of ET technology, rather than the raw ET info/ships itself.

His claim of a seeing a list of 'non-terrestrial officers' and downloading a picture of a UFO are completely believable if you consider that the military are not going to just sit on advanced technology - they are going to use it.

The picture of the UFO that he claims to have seen was not necessarily an ET one but could easily be a military one (built using ET technology).

You may be correct in your assessment, murnut, that info on aliens is not going to be deliberately accessible via the internet. However, with decades for the technology to profliferate throughout the military and very lax computer security I think it is possible for 1 or 2 files to have slipped through the net to become accessible via the web.

[murnut]

Originally Posted by TheGhost

"Gary...... in my opinion, he saw nothing."

What Gary was likely to have seen would probably be the military versions / military applications of ET technology, rather than the raw ET info/ships itself.

His claim of a seeing a list of 'non-terrestrial officers' and downloading a picture of a UFO are completely believable if you consider that the military are not going to just sit on advanced technology - they are going to use it.

The picture of the UFO that he claims to have seen was not necessarily an ET one but could easily be a military one (built using ET technology).

You may be correct in your assessment, murnut, that info on aliens is not going to be deliberately accessible via the internet. However, with decades for the technology to profliferate throughout the military and very lax computer security I think it is possible for 1 or 2 files to have slipped through the net to become accessible via the web.

I doubt it.

Anything at all "found" is because the govt wants it "found"

My opinion is (sorry for repeating myself) govts know far less than what the ufo community is willing to believe

[murnut]

Originally Posted by TheGhost

"The govt is not responsible for what I choose to believe or not. "

If the government is suppressing information and/or putting out disinformation, they ARE responsible for shaping your beliefs, to an extent.

What the govt does or says doesn't affect my beliefs at all.

It should not affect yours either

[leeboy]

Originally Posted by murnut

I merely responded to what was asked of me.

Certainly there much that is being kept from us...I don't like it.

But I have to ask myself, in the absence of any proof, what it is I actually believe is occurring.

Yes there is a phenomena that occurs that is unexplained to this point.

Yes, govts have secret projects, secret flying devices etc.

There is no right to know what these are, unfortunately.

Govts may have recovered crashed vehicles.

But beyond that, what is really known?

I would venture a guess that the govt knows far less about the phenomena than most here would believe.

If the govt "came clean", many here will not believe that the govt knows very little about what has occurred.

They cannot answer even the most basic questions, beyond a few.

It is a lose-lose situation for them.

Personally, I don't need disclosure.

I think that it fair to say, whatever is disclosed won't be the truth.

I don't need the govt to disclose to me that God exists, so what's the point?

Disclosure happens on a personal level....at least it did for me.

The govt is not responsible for what I choose to believe or not.

It is fine to ask questions....but it is up to the individual to find answers for themselves.

As far as how this relates to Gary...... in my opinion, he saw nothing.

Why would they crash a plane, when he could have been silenced before you ever heard his name?

The biggest secrets are not hooked up to the internet...never have been.

Gary uses the ufo community for sympathy, and the ufo community uses Gary as a push towards disclosure.

Too bad neither side is being truthful about its intentions.

your right the governments may know little but thats because they are the "front men", so to speak and like us have very little knowledge themselves. The basics of compartmentalisation. Or to quote a film "plausible denyability"
The biggest secrets will be hooked up to the internet because in its early days the internet was designed for military use only, and paper files are a very bulky item to store and easily destroyed, whereas computer files can, and are, backed up many many times.
Im afraid that at present the masses are not yet ready for any disclosure wether it be planned by the ptb or others "off world". Simply because of religion, any advanced race that wanted to create a following on this planet could very easily perform the miracles that jesus did in the bible and hey presto the religion that only existed upto that point in a book is suddenly in front of your eyes and something tangible that you can touch and see. Imagine what this would do to the vatican and the power that they hold over the masses (just one example) The flip side of this is a race that could do these miraculuos acts would be looked upon as deities and they may NOT want that, given that we should be expanding our knowledge of self and the universe, pretty hard to do when your on your knees praying.

[murnut]

Originally Posted by leeboy

your right the governments may know little but thats because they are the "front men", so to speak and like us have very little knowledge themselves. The basics of compartmentalisation. Or to quote a film "plausible denyability"
The biggest secrets will be hooked up to the internet because in its early days the internet was designed for military use only, and paper files are a very bulky item to store and easily destroyed, whereas computer files can, and are, backed up many many times.
Im afraid that at present the masses are not yet ready for any disclosure wether it be planned by the ptb or others "off world". Simply because of religion, any advanced race that wanted to create a following on this planet could very easily perform the miracles that jesus did in the bible and hey presto the religion that only existed upto that point in a book is suddenly in front of your eyes and something tangible that you can touch and see. Imagine what this would do to the vatican and the power that they hold over the masses (just one example) The flip side of this is a race that could do these miraculuos acts would be looked upon as deities and they may NOT want that, given that we should be expanding our knowledge of self and the universe, pretty hard to do when your on your knees praying.

Many will bow down before these beings.

That's the problem

But back to the topic.....the cover up has work for so long and so well, that I doubt there is really much to it.

The govt knows far too little, than what you or most would believe.

If there was something tangible, it would have leaked with proof.

It hasn't.

IMO


This is why I say Gary saw nothing....this and the fact that Gary's name is public.

I mean if Gary really did see what he claims, we would have never ever even heard of him.

The PtB can't be so smart and so stupid at the same time.

[King Lear]

WOW Murnut you have already 150 posts!
I bet they are only in this thread

Why are you such a Gary-stalker? Did he hack your bank account?


And

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[Subsonik]

Murnut, I have to wonder why you feel so incredibly strongly towards something that is so obovioulsy wrong. There is no way that Gary did $5000 of so called damage to all those computers he used and you're acting like it somehow affects you personally. What side are you on here?

These people use the dirtiest tactics in the book and out of the book, including hacking, assassination, abduction and for them it is somehow legal - even though their hackers are malicious and steal secret info that really does has to do with other country's national security. They are going to take down Gary as hard as they possibly can and that is the reason they want him in the US. Sometimes you need to fight fire with fire. I completely sympethise with the guy - he did what was right in his heart.

And something you said made me laugh - 90% of citizens believe they're within the law - what are you, a politician? Did you just pluck the figure from the air?

[murnut]

Originally Posted by Subsonik

Murnut, I have to wonder why you feel so incredibly strongly towards something that is so obovioulsy wrong. There is no way that Gary did $5000 of so called damage to all those computers he used and you're acting like it somehow affects you personally. What side are you on here?

These people use the dirtiest tactics in the book and out of the book, including hacking, assassination, abduction and for them it is somehow legal - even though their hackers are malicious and steal secret info that really does has to do with other country's national security. They are going to take down Gary as hard as they possibly can and that is the reason they want him in the US. Sometimes you need to fight fire with fire. I completely sympethise with the guy - he did what was right in his heart.

And something you said made me laugh - 90% of citizens believe they're within the law - what are you, a politician? Did you just pluck the figure from the air?

If they were going to take down Gary as hard as they could, he would be dead, and you never would have heard of him.

Yes I pulled that number of the top of my head, but I am right, aren't I?

Gary has not had a trial yet, so no evidence has been presented.

I sympathize with those that say the extradition law is unjust.

My problem is not so much with Gary, but his supporters who see nothing wrong with his actions.

It devalues the serious research done by the real heroes of ufology.

By your reasoning, what Islamic terrorists do is justified, because they believe they are right.

UFO vigilantes bring no credibility to fields that struggles to maintain any in the public eye.

Gary is has made himself sick over this....he was offered 18 mos served in US, 18 mos served in Britain....as part of plea agreement.

He declined

He got terrible legal advice.

Now whose fault is that?

Add it up folks, the tale Gary spins does not add up.

King Lear, you are most kind.

[TheGhost]

"If they were going to take down Gary as hard as they could, he would be dead, and you never would have heard of him."

This isn't necessarily true, murnut. Assassination is not always the best solution to their problems. They have people arrested on trumped up charges routinely. They also have people sent to mental hospitals routinely. Discrediting people in a very public way (using their pawns in the corporate media) is also done routinely.
Assassination is not the only tool they use. They pick whichever 'deterent' is the most appropriate for whatever situation they are dealing with.

Also, I think the East German authorities split people into four psychological categories when deciding how to deal with dissent. The punishment was different for each category and tailored to the psychology of the people in that category.

Murdering Gary (in an obvious way) would simply act as confirmation that he was telling the truth.

If they lock him up for 70 years they can say it was because of the hacking, not because of what he claims to have seen.

However, I am concerned that they might murder him in a not-so-obvious way, i.e. the plane crashing into the Atlantic as he is being transported over there. It would just be called a 'tragic accident', probably, and no-one would ever suspect the plane was crashed deliberately just to kill one man (except for paranoics like me! lol).

If you don't believe the PTB would kill a plane-load of people in this manner I suggest you research Lockerbie, JKF Jr, Senator Wellstone, the airliner that crashed in New York or New Jersey in November 2001, that Egyptian Airlines crash which happened, I think, in early 2001, and so on.

[TheGhost]

As for the 'offer' Gary received from the US authrities, I have answered this point before. The offer was unsigned - so not worth the paper it was written on - it was not a legally binding offer. It was most likely just made to tempt him over into their hands and once they had him they would do whatever they wanted.

At a hearing on 12 April 2006 the prosecution produced an unsigned note from the US Embassy, claimed to be a guarantee that McKinnon would not be tried under U.S. Military Order 1 (November 13, 2001 - 66 Fed. Reg. 57,833 "Military Order"), which allows suspected terrorists to be tried under military law. However, the defence argued that the note was not binding as it was unsigned. The defence called as a witness Clive Stafford-Smith, a US-based lawyer who has defended inmates of Guantanamo Bay. Stafford-Smith argued that the note would not prevent McKinnon from being treated as a terrorist.

[murnut]

Originally Posted by TheGhost

As for the 'offer' Gary received from the US authrities, I have answered this point before. The offer was unsigned - so not worth the paper it was written on - it was not a legally binding offer. It was most likely just made to tempt him over into their hands and once they had him they would do whatever they wanted.

At a hearing on 12 April 2006 the prosecution produced an unsigned note from the US Embassy, claimed to be a guarantee that McKinnon would not be tried under U.S. Military Order 1 (November 13, 2001 - 66 Fed. Reg. 57,833 "Military Order"), which allows suspected terrorists to be tried under military law. However, the defence argued that the note was not binding as it was unsigned. The defence called as a witness Clive Stafford-Smith, a US-based lawyer who has defended inmates of Guantanamo Bay. Stafford-Smith argued that the note would not prevent McKinnon from being treated as a terrorist.

I understand what you are saying, but it is not reality as far as I am concerned.

Gary has no proof of anything...so why is he a threat?

Your using an argument, that contradicts itself when approached logically.

Maybe....just maybe, it is what it is.

A hacker who got caught, who has had terrible legal advice.

Gary's supporters and you unfortunately play the fear card, when it suits your "theories"...but when I play along, you decide it is not valid.

UFO vigilantism will not help the cause, has not helped the cause.

Making excuses doesn't help either...in my opinion

[Orion Morris]

Murnut... you are crazy... why do you care if we support Gary so much? You have been arguing on this thread for weeks!

It is wrong for Gary to be treated like a terrorist!

[murnut]

Because when the ufo community supports criminal actions, it damages the credibility of the of serious work that is being done.

We need more credibility...not less.

And by the way...Gary has not been charged as a Terrorist....although the notes he left indicate malicious intent.


Again...The ufo community needs credibility, not vigilantes.

Is my point so hard to understand?

[anonypony]

Thought police, or paid to post, or both as I have questioned many many times before.

If it smells like a fish, most likely it is a fish.


Shouting loud doesn't make one right, more importantly as evident here, dose not inspire others to listen.


The word bulling comes to mind.... Anyone who bothered to read the whole of this thread, can't claim I didn't give it a very good try...

but hey many other fish to fry...

[murnut]

Sticks and Stones

But thanks for playing anyway.

This is about the soul of the ufo community....which is being manipulated.

I won't sit back and say nothing when I see it falling apart right before my eyes.

If one cares about the soul, one tries to save it.

Granted that I can't do it by myself, and I blame myself for not being as clear as i wanted to be.

But when I see posts from apony and ghost such as the above, I realize I have for the most part failed in expressing myself.

Did I reach anyone?

Anyway...I will be gone when Avalon goes pay to post...no one is going to gift me...hehe....but I will be at OMF as always.

Gentle people, I wish you all well

Andy

[TheGhost]

Originally Posted by murnut

I understand what you are saying, but it is not reality as far as I am concerned.

Gary has no proof of anything...so why is he a threat?

Your using an argument, that contradicts itself when approached logically.

Maybe....just maybe, it is what it is.

A hacker who got caught, who has had terrible legal advice.

Gary's supporters and you unfortunately play the fear card, when it suits your "theories"...but when I play along, you decide it is not valid.

UFO vigilantism will not help the cause, has not helped the cause.

Making excuses doesn't help either...in my opinion

Huh???



"Your using an argument, that contradicts itself when approached logically."

Please explain how my argument contradicts itself when approached logically. - This is what I meant in a previous post about you giving vague answers that don't actually counter the point being made.

[murnut]

Ghost,

I have done all I can do here....at the moment.

You don't get what I am saying.

I will be back, if I feel it is necessary.

I wish you the best

[leeboy]

Originally Posted by TheGhost

Huh???



"Your using an argument, that contradicts itself when approached logically."

Please explain how my argument contradicts itself when approached logically. - This is what I meant in a previous post about you giving vague answers that don't actually counter the point being made.

Ghost, i think your wasting your time and being led up the garden path by this one. Every question asked of him/her (but i feel its a him) is NEVER answered in a straight forward way. Like i tried to point out to him he hasnt actually answered anything thing yet just keeps spouting rehtoric. I bet he/she is a politician or president of the school debate team!!!

[murnut]

Originally Posted by TheGhost

"If they were going to take down Gary as hard as they could, he would be dead, and you never would have heard of him."

This isn't necessarily true, murnut. Assassination is not always the best solution to their problems. They have people arrested on trumped up charges routinely. They also have people sent to mental hospitals routinely. Discrediting people in a very public way (using their pawns in the corporate media) is also done routinely.
Assassination is not the only tool they use. They pick whichever 'deterent' is the most appropriate for whatever situation they are dealing with.

Why would Gary need to be discredited?

He was an unemployed, pot smoking, insomniac....and,

He has no proof!....and no credibility.

He was offered 36mos....oh the humanity.

Originally Posted by TheGhost

Also, I think the East German authorities split people into four psychological categories when deciding how to deal with dessent. The punishment was different for each category and tailored to the psychology of the people in that category.

Murdering Gary (in an obvious way) would simply act as confirmation that he was telling the truth.

Not if you never heard of him

Originally Posted by TheGhost

If they lock him up for 70 years they can say it was because of the hacking, not because of what he claims to have seen.

However, I am concerned that they might murder him in a not-so-obvious way, i.e. the plane crashing into the Atlantic as he is being transported over there. It would just be called a 'tragic accident', probably, and no-one would ever suspect the plane was crashed deliberately just to kill one man (except for paranoics like me! lol).

On one hand, you make a case that they would not murder him, but on another hand, you believe they murder a whole plane load.

He could have been silenced long ago...but instead the ptb's are calling all the shots in the British courts, European courts...to stick it to Gary for 70 years.

Do you realize how many would have to been in on your charade?

You contradict yourself when you say they will stop at nothing to silence Gary...but for the last 3 years, Gary has given plenty of interviews.

The evil threats have not worked?

Imagine that.

Originally Posted by TheGhost

If you don't believe the PTB would kill a plane-load of people in this manner I suggest you research Lockerbie, JKF Jr, Senator Wellstone, the airliner that crashed in New York or New Jersey in November 2001, that Egyptian Airlines crash which happened, I think, in early 2001, and so on.

Evil does what evil does...911 for instance....it just is not as stupid of making a 36mos martyr for the ufo community to use as a rally cry for disclosure.

Come on now,. think logically about the events in Gary's case.

Why would Gary frighten anyone, he has no proof, no names, no photos, no nothing.

So how is Gary a threat to the PtB?

Could it be he is just a hacker who got caught?

Of course not, that would be too simple...right?

Thanks for the kind words as always leeboy.

I guess I get the venom because no one has any facts to back up their wild claims.

I was not going to post here any more, but I could not refuse leeboys invitation....so bring it on

[anonypony]

"I have done all I can do here....at the moment."

You keep on promising and here we are on page 15 and you are still here with much of the same.

Not sure you are the best self appointed defender the ufo community could hope for...
But I would leave each to arrive to his/her conclusion.

It is also quite revealing how you are revelling and reviling at the misfortune of someone who is obviously in difficulties.

[murnut]

I changed my mind...besides...what would this thread be without me?

Y'all would have no one to be angry at anymore.

I am providing a valuable service

I have had Gary's best interest in mind all along.

The ufo community is using Gary, and Gary is using the ufo community...imo.

PC also attempted to use Gary to it's own end.

I found this most disappointing.

Plead out and it is over Gary.

You can put this all behind you.

The sooner you do this, the better you will feel.

[shaundelear]

Originally Posted by murnut

I changed my mind...besides...what would this thread be without me?

Y'all would have no one to be angry at anymore.

I am providing a valuable service

I have had Gary's best interest in mind all along.

The ufo community is using Gary, and Gary is using the ufo community...imo.

PC also attempted to use Gary to it's own end.

I found this most disappointing.

Plead out and it is over Gary.

You can put this all behind you.

The sooner you do this, the better you will feel.

Well I have been watching this going round in circles and my conclusion is that murnut you need to find something more positive to spend your time on ,your posts are well writen and you make logical arguments, but the intent?
I believe your enjoying winding Garrys' mum up.
Whom by the way deserves some empathy.
If it was my son I would be stressed and depressed and your not making it any easier.
Your NOT providing a valuble service here .
If you had Garys best interests at heart you would not be winding his mum up.
So peace brother and a little consideration.