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Old 04-18-2009, 09:29 PM   #26
Dantheman62
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Default Re: The Fallacy of "Healthy" Competition

I would say that there is good and bad competition, so true, and the bad competition like war, is more ego driven.But war goes all the way back to cavemen, if they lost a battle with the clan over the next hill wouldn't they make better spears next time to try to win/survive?
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Old 04-18-2009, 09:29 PM   #27
777 The Great Work
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Default Re: The Fallacy of "Healthy" Competition

A magical life demands the abandonment of comfort security and safety. Combat, competition, extremes, and adverseries are essential to produce higher evolution. A time of desperation is required for life to live close to the edgeone must be living by ones wits and intuition.

In a stagnant ,environment the body and mind will create its on advesary,disease, circumstances and fantasy. Only in Xtremes can spirit discover itself.
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Old 04-18-2009, 09:32 PM   #28
Dantheman62
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Default Re: The Fallacy of "Healthy" Competition

Very good 777, stagnation would be a problem without competition.
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Old 04-18-2009, 09:51 PM   #29
Carmen
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Default Re: The Fallacy of "Healthy" Competition

Okay Dan, a great example for me as I have competed many times in our equivalent of State Fairs. We call them Agricultural & Pastural Show, or A & P Shows. My god do you find bitchy competitive people there! And its all one or two judges opinion of beautiful or useful. Lovely to look at some of these animals, but they are a bit like human beauty compietitions. They don't necessarily correlate to usefulness. Its all surface stuff. For example exotic bulls are often shown, huge handsome and shiny. Put them out with cows on hill country and they are bloody useless. They are used to a pampered down country, well fed environment. Put them on hills to forage and work and they just can't perform!!!!LoL

Dog shows are another example. Competitive silly people are breeding purebreds that are weakening the physical bodies of many breeds. Nature is competitive to a certain degree. Inbred or line bred animals are so removed from survivalbility that without human pampering and interference they would have died out years ago. But nature overall is co-operative. Each species is part of the whole.

Competition as in war ian, is always destructive, but its also co-operative. At the top its competition, on faction over the other. At the lower levels soldiers have to co-operate extremely well with each other to be an effective unit.

Looking at competition from a higher level it is also co-operative. Without the opponent, there is no competition. So its one thing. Weird huh!
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Old 04-18-2009, 09:57 PM   #30
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Default Re: The Fallacy of "Healthy" Competition

I gotta go now and I will be back later. Apprieciate all of your comments. I think that we are looking, or should be, at different levels of this subject with very different reactions or responses. Keep it coming!
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Old 04-18-2009, 11:05 PM   #31
Dantheman62
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Default Re: The Fallacy of "Healthy" Competition

Good point Carmen, it is weird how it works. I think ego has something to do with winning, but you could look at that differently too.
I've been involved in thousands of competitions, ok we can call them pool tournaments, LOL, and of course I wanted to win everytime but mainly just to see if my skills were polished enough to beat somebody better than me.

I'm not sure if you would call that ego based or not, but I looked at winning as an accomplishment. I would play 30 or 40 games just to warm up before the tournament.
So I guess I looked at it as accomplishment of my hard work and concentration that I put into it. I don't know if that "good" feeling you get when you win is from ego or not.

What did I get out of it in the end?, just a closet full of trophies and a lot of bar tabs paid for by other people, LOL, and the satisfaction of knowing that all my years of practice and playing thousands of games paid off, at least by making me happy.
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Old 04-18-2009, 11:15 PM   #32
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Default Re: The Fallacy of "Healthy" Competition

I think what Carmen may be speaking of is similar to 'The Fallacy of "Healthy" Wife-Beating'!!! However, a would be dictator can ruthlessly compete for power...and when achieved...demand that everyone cease competing...and cooperate fully...or else. Is this in the world's future? A violent overthrow of the world's governments...followed by peace and cooperation under a dictator? See how tricky this discussion can get? Those who are advocating non-competition are competing with those of us who think competition can be a 'healthy' thing! Stop competing with us. Your full cooperation is expected. Thank-you. How does that make you feel?
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Old 04-18-2009, 11:26 PM   #33
Jacqui D
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Default Re: The Fallacy of "Healthy" Competition

It would be nice to think that we are all the same but we are not!
There will always be someone quicker than you, stronger, intellectually more clever so forth so forth.
It would be a strange world if we were all the same but saying that i know what Carmen means. This striving to be better does not feel right for me.

I remember well when my kids were small i use to loathe their school sports day.Whilst my two sons loved the competitions because they simply loved running my daughter who found the whole thing boring use to hate every minute of it but was forced to take part knowing that she would get no where in the races but did try bless her.
Whilst the winners would all get their winners badge the runners up were ignored and not even praised for trying and the one that always came last was almost boooooed.

Thank goodness today the same school to which my grandson now attends has changed it's attitude and now has a strict rule with the tiny ones that they all receive a badge and the winner wins points for their house team.
more sensible i feel leaving those who are less able to compete in these races feeling a little more like they tried and less like they failed.

But of course the older children still have to do their bit so although age has lessened the blow for some it seems to catch you up again as you go up in years.
I really have no answer to this one but this is an interesting thread i feel because their are pros and cons for this discussion.
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Old 04-18-2009, 11:32 PM   #34
Dantheman62
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Default Re: The Fallacy of "Healthy" Competition

Ortho, did you read the whole thread?, just curious. Without competition you would get stagnation and no evolution of quality. Things would stay the same and never improve!
I think that competition has nothing to do with cooperation, or lack of cooperation.
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Old 04-19-2009, 12:24 AM   #35
Carmen
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Default Re: The Fallacy of "Healthy" Competition

I actually quite like this thread, cos its making me think!! Just been for my walk and continued this discussion with friends up the road. My friend Michael is reading (for the umpteenth time) The Inner Game of Golf. Some good stuff in that book about different levels on consciousness! The conscious and the sub-conscious mind.

I don't agree with you Dan that competition has nothing to do with co-operation. I think at the next level they are two sides of the same coin. They are ying and yang, male and female. Their is no creation without both. But it does take energy and effort to light the flame.

Ortho, what a dictator would get, wouldn't be co-operation, it would be coercion. Quite different. Slavery is not co-operation. Co-operation is something that is given freely.

Dan, your excellence (congratulations BTW) would have been as much about competiting and improving yourself to win than it was about "beating' someone?

One aspect of straight competition is that the person is extremely jealous of anyone else ranging alongside or winning. Other competitors are never celebrated by a very competitive person. They are resented and sometimes hated.

Jaqui D, There is nothing crueler than sportday at school for the non-competitive or non-sporty child. My heart goes out when I see the pain of failure in some poor kids faces.

I do think that when are society advances to higher levels competitiion as we know it today, will cease to exist. Enlightened people will just refuse to be part of winning and losing.

I know that in the striving, we have the excellence. I know that because I have experienced that. But there has to be a better way.

Love and Light

Carmen
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Old 04-19-2009, 12:28 AM   #36
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Default Re: The Fallacy of "Healthy" Competition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dantheman62 View Post
Ortho, did you read the whole thread?, just curious. Without competition you would get stagnation and no evolution of quality. Things would stay the same and never improve!
I think that competition has nothing to do with cooperation, or lack of cooperation.
I did read the whole thread...did you?

Competition and Cooperation are closely related. When a baseball game is played...there is a cooperative agreement to follow the rules and cooperate with the rulings of the referees. The team members cooperate with each other to pursue success in the game. A lone ranger team member quickly ends up on the bench. In survival of the fittest competitive evolution...cooperation is a competitive survival skill. I recall discussing this with Terrence McKenna. He agreed with this view. That day...I talked to Dr. Timothy Leary about Jesus. What a trip!

A dictator might insist upon reeducation in a mental hospital for someone who felt and acted coerced...and who exhibited signs of deep seated hostility toward the state. This maladjusted rebel might be a potential terrorist. This mentally ill person must learn to be happy with their servitude. They must learn to love Big Brother. After all...didn't Jesus tell us to love our enemies? Doesn't the Bible tell us that the powers that be are ordained by God? Is God a dictator...or is it Satan who is the dictator? Or...are both terms really Reptilian/Luciferian creations designed to control and enslave the human race? Does Lucifer(and friends) masquerade as BOTH God and Satan? I'm not suggesting that these beings are merely figments of the imagination...but rather that they may be demonic deceptions. Warning: Heresy Inside. I hope the good guys win...or I'm in deep snake ****!

Last edited by orthodoxymoron; 04-20-2009 at 05:02 AM.
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Old 04-19-2009, 12:35 AM   #37
Czymra
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Default Re: The Fallacy of "Healthy" Competition

Dunno what you're on about. Tone3Jaguar answered the question as masterfully as I can imagine. Go back and read his post.

If you fight to win you lose, if you fight the good fight you grow.
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Old 04-19-2009, 12:40 AM   #38
Dantheman62
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Default Re: The Fallacy of "Healthy" Competition

OK first off ortho, I didn't mean it like that, I really, really hate this thing called a computer because it truly is the emotional dumbing down of the world, gadget!
I meant that sincerely!!!!!!
Secondly........ I forgot now, I'll be back if I don't throw this stupid thing out the window!, LOL
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Old 04-19-2009, 12:42 AM   #39
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Default Re: The Fallacy of "Healthy" Competition

Quote:
I really, really hate this thing called a computer because it truly is the emotional dumbing down of the world, gadget!
Spake the wise man.
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Old 04-19-2009, 12:46 AM   #40
Carmen
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Default Re: The Fallacy of "Healthy" Competition

Stick with it Dan, I know what you mean though. Explaining can be damn difficult on a computer!!

Yes, Czymra, Tone3 explained it well, but there are many facets to this subject. Just indulge us will ya please. Competition is so ingrained in our society that we do not see the damage it does. If competition was so bloody marvellous why is the world in such a mess?
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Old 04-19-2009, 01:01 AM   #41
Dantheman62
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Default Re: The Fallacy of "Healthy" Competition

OK I'm back, LOL, I think there's so many different types of competition that it can't be talked about as one thing.
If we didn't have any type of industrial competition, every industry would then have a monopoly in their section.
If we didn't have any sporting competition then there really wouldn't be any sports. And nobody being pushed to better themselves.
If we didn't have any educational competition then wouldn't all schools and colleges and such be teaching on the same level, and at the same rate?

I just think that without competition everything would be monotone stagnation.
Boring to say the least and with no advancement of quality!
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Old 04-19-2009, 01:47 AM   #42
Carmen
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Default Re: The Fallacy of "Healthy" Competition

Well Dan, as far as industry goes, I can put forward the example of our co-operative dairy industry as an effective model of co-operation. My family are fourth generational farmers. We started off as sheep farmers and my husband became more and more disillusioned with this branch of our agricultural industry. The meat companies were run by mainly an old boy network that competed with each other for overseas markets. One company would go overseas and carefully market their meat products, spend the money advertising and sorting out sometimes tricky markets where one had to be intelligent, patient and intuitive to achieve the objective. It would all be a done deal, then another meat company from New Zealand would come straight in after that and undercut the price!!

This sort of thing went on all the time. When we shifted over to dairying it was a whole different ballgame. The Dairy industry in New Zealand is owned by all the dairy farmers. This has changed somewhat in the last few years and I'm not sure to what degree. The farmers collectively own their industry. The best young brains are employed in marketing. When they go looking for new markets overseas they seem to always enter into a partnership or co-operate venture with the country to which they sell product to. They do not undermine the existing country's own dairy industry.

Everyone benefits from this co-operative model and it is a very competitive one. It has to be because we are too small a country, too small to not get it right. Farmers share information and improvements are constant. In this case the farmer holds the power and is not the recipient of whatever the industry decides they will pay him or her.
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Old 04-19-2009, 06:35 AM   #43
giovonni
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Lightbulb Re: The Fallacy of "Healthy" Competition

Competition~ like most things in life~ is healthy in pursuing~ when there is a balance achieved> through the process and experience.
Nothing motivates me more, than when I attempt to give up on myself;
I believe the sweatest and best victories come> when competing with oneself



These quotes best> sum-up my sentiments on this subject matter;

There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow men. True nobility lies in being superior to your former self.
unknown


"The world is divided into people who do things and people who get the credit. Try, if you can, to belong to the first class. There's far less competition."
Dwight Morrow

"The essence of competitiveness is liberated when we make people believe that what they think and do is important - and then get out of their way while they do it.”
Jack Welch

"The biggest things are always the easiest to do because there is no competition."
Willian van Horne

Last edited by giovonni; 04-19-2009 at 06:37 AM.
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Old 04-19-2009, 07:23 AM   #44
burgundia
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Default Re: The Fallacy of "Healthy" Competition

Quote:
Originally Posted by giovonni View Post
Competition~ like most things in life~ is healthy in pursuing~ when there is a balance achieved> through the process and experience.
Nothing motivates me more, than when I attempt to give up on myself;
I believe the sweatest and best victories come> when competing with oneself



These quotes best> sum-up my sentiments on this subject matter;

There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow men. True nobility lies in being superior to your former self.
unknown


"The world is divided into people who do things and people who get the credit. Try, if you can, to belong to the first class. There's far less competition."
Dwight Morrow

"The essence of competitiveness is liberated when we make people believe that what they think and do is important - and then get out of their way while they do it.”
Jack Welch

"The biggest things are always the easiest to do because there is no competition."
Willian van Horne
Beautiful and wise quotes giovonni. i do not agree that where there is no competition there is stagnation.
Let's look at nature. I do not see any competition(unless for a beter mate or place to breed) just cooperation:animals with plants, plants with plants,etc.
Tesla, Skłodowka-Curie, Newton,Copernicus,Faraday, just to name a few, weren't competing with anybody. When I like something and I know I am good at it, I do it for my own pleasure or satisfaction. Was the washing machine invented as a result of competition or to make our lives easier(and of course to make money)?
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Old 04-20-2009, 03:44 AM   #45
Carmen
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Default Re: The Fallacy of "Healthy" Competition

Competition in the science world does not advance science. Head scientists jealously guarding their positions, and being the ones receiving funding have often held back scientific advances. Ill repeat the saying I wrote somewhere else that, the science progresses one dead scientist at a time. Brilliant scientists are often in the boondocks till well after their death!
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Old 04-20-2009, 04:23 AM   #46
giovonni
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Thumbs up Re: The Fallacy of "Healthy" Competition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carmen View Post
Competition in the science world does not advance science. Head scientists jealously guarding their positions, and being the ones receiving funding have often held back scientific advances. Ill repeat the saying I wrote somewhere else that, the science progresses one dead scientist at a time. Brilliant scientists are often in the boondocks till well after their death!

Universities are full of closed minds> fields of study and dead ends!
dog and pony shows for grants and funding~
by governments and corporations seeking more control~
It all leads back too the [EGO] not competive scientific advancements
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Old 04-20-2009, 04:50 AM   #47
Dantheman62
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Default Re: The Fallacy of "Healthy" Competition

From Wikipedia.............

Competition is a combat between individuals, groups, nations, animals, etc. for territory, a niche, or allocation of resources. It arises whenever two or more parties strive for a goal which cannot be shared. Competition occurs naturally between living organisms which co-exist in the same environment. For example, animals compete over water supplies, food, and mates, etc. Humans compete for water, food, and mates, though when these needs are met deep rivalries often arise over the pursuit of wealth, prestige, and fame. Business is often associated with competition as most companies are in competition with at least one other firm over the same group of customers.

Competition may give incentives for self-improvement. For example, if two watchmakers are competing for business, they will hopefully lower their prices and improve their products to increase sales. If birds compete for a limited water supply during a drought, the more suited birds will survive to reproduce and improve the population.

Rivals will often refer to their competitors as "the competition". The term can also be used to refer to the contest or tournament itself.
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