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Old 09-17-2008, 09:49 AM   #101
atama
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Talking Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon

don't close the thread!
closing this thread is like giving up on Gary. I'm sure the guys calling Gary a 'criminal' would love that.

They can put 1 cop on here to ruin a thread and it's closed? that's making it real easy for 'em.
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Old 09-17-2008, 10:20 AM   #102
anonypony
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Default Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon

I think it is a good idea to keep it open.
The information on the thread is valuable and informative.
The fact that there is no agreement, serves the exploration of the many issues this case presents.

I say keep it on!

However I would ask that we debate it in a mature way, repeating oneself and shouting loud does not make someone right.
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Old 09-17-2008, 11:28 AM   #103
murnut
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Default Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon

Musado....

I end posting in this thread.


Quote:
Originally Posted by bluestix View Post
Any slave with the audacity to question the masters is sure to be whipped.

Heaven forbid I should question the ufo "masters"

Last edited by murnut; 09-17-2008 at 11:31 AM.
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Old 09-17-2008, 11:36 AM   #104
Orion11
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Default Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon

love the drama eh?

crazyness.

why should it even matter to anyone if this thread is here?

if your tired of it.. stop clicking on the link for it.
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Old 09-17-2008, 11:46 AM   #105
murnut
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Default Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon

Sorry...one more

Steve Bass says it better than me.

http://www.ufodigest.com/news/0908/Ufology.html
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Old 09-17-2008, 12:09 PM   #106
anonypony
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Default New thread - Gary Mckinnon | News and Call for Action

A new thread - Gary Mckinnon | News and Call for Action
For those who are interested in the latest news about Gary's case,
or wish to help Gary by providing useful information,
or joining in protest,
let this space be the hub for this purpose.
http://www.projectavalon.net/forum/s...ead.php?t=2340

Gary McKinnon Protest

4:00 pm, Sunday, 28 September
Outside the US Embassy
Grosvener Sq. London


A letter from Janis (Gary's mum)
Tuesday, September 16, 2008

Dear All

Any day now, my son, Gary McKinnon, could face extradition from Britain to the United States where he would stand trial for hacking into US government computers and could face a sentence of sixty years (Charged with 7 counts, proposed sentence Ten Years Per Count)

Gary has recently been diagnosed as suffering from Lifetime Aspergers Syndrome, which is why I and his family and his many friends and supporters around the world are arguing that Gary should be allowed to stay in the U.K and face the courts in the country where the offence, if offence there was, was committed.

The United States authorities waited two years to call for Gary's arrest because of a then unratified, unsigned extradition treaty between the two countries which would make it easier for them to have a British citizen sent for trial in the US. Yet, when he was first arrested in London, Gary was told he would probably get a sentence of community service for his hacking activities. He naively admitted computer misuse before he had engaged a lawyer and without a lawyer even being present. We were still unaware that he had Aspergers Syndrome.

Gary gained no leniency for his honesty and on the contrary, his extradition has been relentlessly pursued by the British and American authorities, despite the crown prosecution service (CPS) declining to prosecute Gary in Britain. This attitude will hardly encourage British citizens to come clean regarding any crimes they may have committed. If no leniency or consideration is given when a person accused of a crime immediately and openly tells the truth, there is little point in them admitting to anything.

The CPS refusal to prosecute Gary here was clearly done to allow the Americans to arrest him two and a half years later, once the one-sided extradition treaty was introduced and then made retrospective. In addition, in order to indict Gary, the US authorities had to claim a specific amount of financial damage. Gary has always denied causing damage and without proof of such, the U.S could not prosecute him. Then, just a month ago the U.S prosecutors stated in an interview, that once Gary was extradited, the most difficult thing to prove would be the damage!

Several weeks ago the goal posts were changed yet again when the U.S brought in a new law whereby no proof of damage was required where military computers were concerned. For the American law to then have been conveniently changed at such a crucial time, so that proof of damage is no longer required speaks volumes and does little to give us any faith in such a "legal" system. (Gary has always denied the alleged damage)

Surely as a vulnerable adult with Aspergers Syndrome, Gary should be allowed to stay in the U.K and face the justice system of the country where his alleged offence took place. So why is Gary's Extradition still being sought? He admitted computer mis-use six an a half years ago and the U.S have changed the law so that they now have no need to prove the alleged damage. So why is there now any need for a trial?

Gary could be sentenced to serve an appropriate time in an open prison in the U.K

If we can somehow keep up the pressure, the Home Office just might rule in gary's favour, as they are now apparently re-considering his case.

If this happened Gary & Lucy (and us "Janis & Wilson") could all have our lives back again.

Every morning for six and a half years we have woken up gripped by fear at the prospect of Gary being extradited and spending most of his life in a hard line U.S prison, or even dying there.

On most days it's difficult to wake up and put one foot in front of the other and this intense long term stress and fear has taken its toll of us all for the past six and a half years. This in itself has been a sentence of continual Torment.

Please try and come to the protest and get everyone you can to attend, as it just might change things for the better and at the moment the only hope we have is to draw attention to the injustice, extremely flawed treaty and proposed disproportionate sentence

This is not just about Gary; it's about the fact that any U.K citizen can now be extradited to America on the strength of an allegation alone. These allegations are presented to our courts as Facts and accepted as such by our courts and Law Lords without the accused having any opportunity to challenge or rebut the allegations. Our courts and Law Lords have publicly pronounced Gary guilty of Damage to military computer systems without him having the benefit of a trial in which to challenge the allegations. This has severely prejudiced any trial Gary might have in the future.

This treaty was signed in secret under the "Queens Prerogative" by David Blunket a day prior to Parliamentary recess, so that no debate by Parliament was able to take place.

This so called treaty was not signed by the U.S and despite the fact that it did not come into effect until April 2007, it was made retrospective in 2004 to allow them to request the Extradition of my son Gary and others without any proof having to be shown. A Prima Facie case was effectively dispensed with.

How can a treaty by its very nature be one sided and how can it be made retrospective?

The Nat West Three, British business men and white collar workers have been extradited under this one sided treaty without any proof having to be provided, although Politicians were told that the treaty was to be used for Terrorists.

We used to have a statute of limitations in this country and I don't know when that changed.

Many Thanks for the support given to us by friends and compassionate strangers who have become friends. Your help is appreciated more than you could ever know.

Yours Sincerely

Janis (Gary's mum)

Note Pinochet and others accused of extremely serious crimes lost their legal battles - Pinochet in fact lost twice in the Lords before the Secretary of State intervened at the last minute (Jack Straw ą who also prevented the extradition of Roisin McAliskey to Germany for an allegation of IRA terrorism) to prevent removal from the UK and end the extradition process. McAliskey was on the grounds of mental health and Pinochet I believe primarily physical health. However they were viewed at the time as political decisions in sensitive areas.

Gary's crime of computer misuse is so miniscule in comparison to either of the two cases just mentioned.
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Old 09-17-2008, 10:12 PM   #107
Mike_Jetson
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Default Re: New thread - Gary Mckinnon | News and Call for Action

I cant believe people here and at other sites are debating Garys actions. Garys actions pale into insignificance in comparison to the way ours and the American governments have changed and manipulated laws in their favour. Not our favour. Theirs.

Standing up for Gary is standing up to the nonsense that has been ruling over us for hundreds if not thousands of years.

Anyone who decides to think the right thing to do is send him to America is totally beyond reckoning in my view. Can you not see the laws have not been working in our favour for so long. Madness
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Old 09-18-2008, 08:05 AM   #108
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Default Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon

Just a couple of points...

1) He confessed... he should have plead 'not guilty' then they would have had to bring proof... bad move on his part

2) WHY did Britain give in so easy on this case? THAT needs to be looked at... have they done this before? If not why this time?

3) Gary's computer skills... "He should be thanked and given a job..."
For what? because he randomly looked for open password computers?

I am willing to bet that at least half of you out there right now do not have a password on your computer... I bet even more do not have a password on your wireless internet or network... (6 of my neighbors don't... anyone can use their connection within a several block radius... ever wonder why your connection is SLOW? Why pay for WIFI when your on the road when you can just 'hop on' )

I will also bet that many of you out there if you have a home security system are still using the installer default of 1234 or 12369 for ADT systems (Yup better go change it RIGHT NOW )

Why? because people are LAZY and creatures of habit... All Gary did was use this weakness and found someone who was stupid to leave their terminal online when they were not at the desk and had no password.

On top of that he did not d/l stuff... he viewed it online knowing full well that anyone walking by the terminal could see what he was doing.

This is not skill... this should not be rewarded. 75 years? Heck we don't even give murderers that much...

SO WE ARE MISSING SOMETHING HERE

4) I see a lot of talk about accessing secret government computers...

Look... the internet WE use was designed by DARPA and then given to the public because they had something BETTER... there is NO WAY to access the Secret stuff from the regular internet... ONLY if some idiot took some work 'home' with him and stored it on a PC at work would you find anything... and you can bet THAT person is in Gitmo And that would be an internal matter... you would NEVER see it on the news...

The OTHER nets are...

NIPRNET... for below top secret but sensitive and confidential traffic
SIPRNET... for secret

If you are brave enough and want to look at the front door go here..

NIC dot MIL Its okay they won't bite, but they will know you knocked... I did not post a direct link as a lot of dot mil sites play havoc with threads... merely opening the thread on a link will cause a 'ping' . You will see what is required to get in... This is the ONLY portal to SIPRNET on the internet and requires a DoD password AND calling from a dot mil computer... Go look... but don't be stupid

The top secret stuff is handled by JWICS

Joint Worldwide Intelligence Communications System (JWICS)

The Joint Worldwide Intelligence Communications System (JWICS pronounced jaywicks) is a system of interconnected computer networks used by the U.S. Department of Defense and the U.S. Department of State to transmit classified information (up to and including information classified TOP SECRET and SCI) by packet switching over the TCP/IP protocols in a secure environment. It also provides services such as hypertext documents and electronic mail. In other words, the JWICS is the DoD’s classified version of the civilian Internet together with its counterpart, the SIPRNet.

The US Marines Portal is Here... front page is accessible
http://www.marcorsyscom.usmc.mil/sit.../JWICS.html#sd

Bear in mind that most likely none of these links will work from OUTSIDE the USA

There is one higher... usually only referred to as "the Global"... No I won't give out any more on that one... some dogs are best left sleeping

5) I hear a lot of UFO talk... what Gary found was a list of non terrestrial officers and an 'alleged' photo of one of our 'other' spaceships nothing to do with UFO's but to do with a project that is so secret it's hard to even find clues...

Every one of us researchers would love to get our hands on such evidence... and we seek for it every day in documents at .mil sites... all publicly accessable to be sure... and not trying to sneak in any back doors ( errmmm ya...)

If 'they' ever wanted to 'get' one of us they could simply leave a sensitive document lying around for us to 'find'... track the IP and kick in your door because they KNOW you now have a restricted file on your computer...

So that means there is a LOT more to this than we currently know...

One other caveat.... all skeptics scream for proof of this secret space program... yet if it IS secret... merely possessing a document that proves it is a treasonable offense... something to think about

And you can scream all you want about the EVIL governments but until you are ready to grab arms and oppose them... it is a truth that they have all the cool toys like stealth planes and smart bombs that a kid with a joystick in Area 51 can fly right into your bedroom window...



Conclusion...

THERE IS MORE TO THIS THAN WE KNOW

Last edited by zorgon; 09-18-2008 at 08:11 AM.
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Old 09-18-2008, 08:14 AM   #109
zorgon
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Default Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon

Quote:
Originally Posted by atama View Post
don't close the thread!.
WOW That's two threads in a row I hear the words "Closing thread" and one was deleted?

I left another popular board because they started doing that and deleting certain posts as well...

I hope I don't see a trend here...
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Old 09-18-2008, 08:25 AM   #110
Colin
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Default Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon

Quote:
Originally Posted by zorgon View Post
Just a couple of points...

1) He confessed... he should have plead 'not guilty' then they would have had to bring proof... bad move on his part

2) WHY did Britain give in so easy on this case? THAT needs to be looked at... have they done this before? If not why this time?

3) Gary's computer skills... "He should be thanked and given a job..."
For what? because he randomly looked for open password computers?

I am willing to bet that at least half of you out there right now do not have a password on your computer... I bet even more do not have a password on your wireless internet or network... (6 of my neighbors don't... anyone can use their connection within a several block radius... ever wonder why your connection is SLOW? Why pay for WIFI when your on the road when you can just 'hop on' )

I will also bet that many of you out there if you have a home security system are still using the installer default of 1234 or 12369 for ADT systems (Yup better go change it RIGHT NOW )

Why? because people are LAZY and creatures of habit... All Gary did was use this weakness and found someone who was stupid to leave their terminal online when they were not at the desk and had no password.

On top of that he did not d/l stuff... he viewed it online knowing full well that anyone walking by the terminal could see what he was doing.

This is not skill... this should not be rewarded. 75 years? Heck we don't even give murderers that much...

SO WE ARE MISSING SOMETHING HERE

4) I see a lot of talk about accessing secret government computers...

Look... the internet WE use was designed by DARPA and then given to the public because they had something BETTER... there is NO WAY to access the Secret stuff from the regular internet... ONLY if some idiot took some work 'home' with him and stored it on a PC at work would you find anything... and you can bet THAT person is in Gitmo And that would be an internal matter... you would NEVER see it on the news...

The OTHER nets are...

NIPRNET... for below top secret but sensitive and confidential traffic
SIPRNET... for secret

If you are brave enough and want to look at the front door go here..

NIC dot MIL Its okay they won't bite, but they will know you knocked... I did not post a direct link as a lot of dot mil sites play havoc with threads... merely opening the thread on a link will cause a 'ping' . You will see what is required to get in... This is the ONLY portal to SIPRNET on the internet and requires a DoD password AND calling from a dot mil computer... Go look... but don't be stupid

The top secret stuff is handled by JWICS

Joint Worldwide Intelligence Communications System (JWICS)

The Joint Worldwide Intelligence Communications System (JWICS pronounced jaywicks) is a system of interconnected computer networks used by the U.S. Department of Defense and the U.S. Department of State to transmit classified information (up to and including information classified TOP SECRET and SCI) by packet switching over the TCP/IP protocols in a secure environment. It also provides services such as hypertext documents and electronic mail. In other words, the JWICS is the DoDís classified version of the civilian Internet together with its counterpart, the SIPRNet.

The US Marines Portal is Here... front page is accessible
http://www.marcorsyscom.usmc.mil/sit.../JWICS.html#sd

Bear in mind that most likely none of these links will work from OUTSIDE the USA

There is one higher... usually only referred to as "the Global"... No I won't give out any more on that one... some dogs are best left sleeping

5) I hear a lot of UFO talk... what Gary found was a list of non terrestrial officers and an 'alleged' photo of one of our 'other' spaceships nothing to do with UFO's but to do with a project that is so secret it's hard to even find clues...

Every one of us researchers would love to get our hands on such evidence... and we seek for it every day in documents at .mil sites... all publicly accessable to be sure... and not trying to sneak in any back doors ( errmmm ya...)

If 'they' ever wanted to 'get' one of us they could simply leave a sensitive document lying around for us to 'find'... track the IP and kick in your door because they KNOW you now have a restricted file on your computer...

So that means there is a LOT more to this than we currently know...

One other caveat.... all skeptics scream for proof of this secret space program... yet if it IS secret... merely possessing a document that proves it is a treasonable offense... something to think about

And you can scream all you want about the EVIL governments but until you are ready to grab arms and oppose them... it is a truth that they have all the cool toys like stealth planes and smart bombs that a kid with a joystick in Area 51 can fly right into your bedroom window...



Conclusion...

THERE IS MORE TO THIS THAN WE KNOW
Well informed & well written zorgon, AND the most compelling reason I've seen so far to keep this thread alive
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Old 09-18-2008, 08:51 AM   #111
Kerry Cassidy
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Default Re: More than meets the eye...Gary Mckinnon

A good article...

Yes, good post zorgon.

And for the record, if we/they start closing threads I'm also outta here.

Kerry

***
McKinnon a 'scapegoat for Pentagon insecurity'
US military still wide open to attack, says reformed hacker
By John Leyden -- September 2008
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/09...view_analysis/
-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
As accused Pentagon hacker Gary McKinnon hopes
against hope to avoid being extradited to the US,
another reformed military systems meddler
considers his own case - and how different
the outcome was.

McKinnon is probably days away from extradition.
Only a last minute plea to the Home Secretary
"Wacky" Jacqui Smith - based on McKinnon's recent
diagnosis with Asperger Syndrome - now stands
between the Scot and a US trial for hacking into
US government and military systems. Friends and
family staged a demonstration outside the
Home Office on Tuesday in a bid to draw attention
to McKinnon's plight.

The handling of McKinnon's case is in marked
contrast to how US authorities handled a
similar one ten years ago. Like McKinnon,
reformed computer hacker Mathew Bevan was
charged with breaking into US military
computer systems. Bevan was also curious
about searching for evidence that the
US military had harvested technology from
crashed UFOs. Bevan's alleged crimes were
cited as examples of cyberterrorism at
Senate hearings in 1996.

But no attempt was ever made to extradite
Bevan to the US. Instead he was prosecuted
in the UK. The case eventually fell apart
after 18 months, when prosecutors decided
not to proceed.

Bevan put the legal fight behind him and
has since gone on to become an ethical
hacker and security consultant.
Speaking exclusively to El Reg, Bevan
said McKinnon is being used in a political
game that has more to do with securing
funds than deterring or preventing attacks.

"Clearly, lessons have not been learned
since I breached similar systems and as
I have always suggested - perhaps
stopping the intrusions is not the goal
of the administration," Bevan said.
"Tacitly allowing access to machines
by ensuring that default passwords or
in fact access methods without passwords
is suggestive of a system that really
does not care too much about many of
the machines connected to it."

Bevan questions why Windows PCs on US military
networks are connected to the internet via
direct IPs. Thousands of attackers regularly
use the same remote access port accessed
during McKinnon's hack, but little or no
action has been taken in their cases,
Bevan adds.

McKinnon has said that many other hackers
had gained access to the same systems he
was accessing, questioning why US authorities
singled him out for prosecution. The fact
that McKinnon did nothing to disguise his
tracks and lived in a country with a friendly
extradition regime probably has a fair bit
to do with this.

Bevan supports McKinnon's contention that
he was far from alone in rooting around
US military systems. "You ask any military
hacker about the machines they broke in to
and they will tell you they were not the
only people on those systems. Of course,
they weren't the only people, as there
were great numbers of people whiling
away their time hacking computers."

Pork barrel ploy

McKinnon, according to Bevan,
was far more than simply unlucky.

"Why is it that only a tiny number of
those people ever face prosecution?
It is clearly not because the others
cannot be found. You cannot believe that
out of so many people, Gary just happened
to be caught."

McKinnon is being used as a scapegoat in
a bid to secure extra funding to protect
US military networks, according to Bevan,
who reckons a commercial organisation
would never get away with such trickery.

"I think it's all about timing and whether
or not the hacker will make a good scapegoat
whilst allowing the administration to request
further money. The fear machine can keep
churning out propaganda as per normal,
but don't expect those machines to actually
get better security. They are not businesses,
have no shareholders and therefore do not
have to answer to the same stringent rules
and tests that the computer systems of
corporations would."

Bevan compared hacking attacks to an
infestation by pests. Both stem from
a failure to follow basic housekeeping
rules, he argued.

"My cynical side believes that those
'pesky hackers' are treated just like
any bug infestation, the odd one or
two or even a handful is not much of
an issue until the place becomes overrun.
It is then that you can call in the
exterminators and make a big fuss about
the problem, of course it never addresses
that the usual problem with an infestation
is someone has not been keeping their
place tidy. You leave scraps around for
rats to find and in a short time you
will have many, many more rats sniffing
around for the goodies."

With such lax security, the US authorities
are lucky that McKinnon only had peaceful
intentions in mind, Bevan noted.

"Gary is a self-confessed stoner and
perpetrated the 'biggest military hack
of all time' whilst completely wasted.
This is clearly a sign of how lax the
security of these systems was. If Gary
had been clear minded and deliberate
about what he wanted to achieve and was
a malicious person rather than the
pacifist he is - where exactly would
we be now?"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/09...view_analysis/
__________________
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Old 09-18-2008, 09:04 AM   #112
Colin
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Default Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon

Ok guys, the poll is now closed, results below:

Close the thread, we agree to disagree, time to move on
  • 40.63%


Leave the thread open, more discussion is needed
  • 59.38%


SO, I'm very pleased to say, that by an overwhelming majority the thread stays OPEN!

Thanks to everyone that took the time to vote

Now let's have lot's more well argued post's like zorgon's above!

[EDIT - Thread is now stickied so it stays in plain view]

Last edited by Colin; 09-18-2008 at 09:14 AM.
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Old 09-18-2008, 01:58 PM   #113
anonypony
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Posts: 42
Default Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon

Dear Zorgon and all

You have raised many important questions and flagged up even more interesting information... Thanks for taking the time to educate us all...
I would like to relate to what you wrote and would be glad to hear your views. (All of you)

Here we go

Quote:
1) He confessed... he should have plead 'not guilty' then they would have had to bring proof... bad move on his part
You are very right on this one. Here is what happened: When the police raided Gary's home in the middle of the night and arrested him, they have also arrested his girl friend at the time (T). Gary was very concerned about (T) being jailed, as she had nothing to do with what he was doing. He was told they would let her go if he confessed!!!!! He asked what would be the penalty if he confessed and was told - max 6 month community service. At the time he DID NOT THINK OF HIMSELF (which is typical Gary by the way). He did not think he needed a lawyer either. HE TRUSTED THEM...

That is why and how he came to fess up to his actions.
STUPID? YES! He would be the first to admit that now!

I am being told, that this kind of behaviour of rescuing others to one's own detriment and overly trusting... is typical to those with Asbergers Syndrome...

Quote:
3) Gary's computer skills... "He should be thanked and given a job..."For what? because he randomly looked for open password computers?
That is very true too. Gary himself has always emphasised this fact! He always dismissed claims of being particularly skilled in the art of hacking and maintains any kid with basic computer skills could do what he did.

Quote:
2) WHY did Britain give in so easy on this case? THAT needs to be looked at... have they done this before? If not why this time?
That is the million dollar question... And I, like many others who are watching this case unfold, wonder endlessly... I can only speculate and here is what I think:

In order to explore this question we would do well to put this case in the context of it's TIMING. Although Gary maintains he has been exploring those networks for over 2 years before being detected, he was arrested shortly after 911. Regardless of what views one takes on who were the perpetrators of this event, we can not dispute it's role as a fundamental linchpin in the transformation of our reality beyond recognition from that point on.

Far more interesting question here is WHY THE USA ADMINISTRATION WANTS HIM SO BADLY? What and who’s agenda this case would further and help cement into reality?

From there on we can ask, Is the British Government a fully consenting party to this agenda? Or was the British Government, or individuals members of it compromised, blackmailed, or coerced to implement changes to the UK law system, which will help facilitate that agenda later on?

It is my observation that the legislation process is often pre-empting the agenda it aims to serve by at least 10 years. Often a test case is brought forward, shortly after the new laws or bills are passed to make sure there are no unforeseen loop holes. If undesirable loop holes are found, amendments are introduced, way before those laws are really needed to be used for some agenda or another...

I believe Gary's case was viewed as such a test case to begin with.

There are many views regarding the ‘WHY THE USA ADMINISTRATION WANTS HIM SO BADLY’ question.
Many in the UFO community maintain it is to do with where he has been and what he has seen. That might be the case or maybe part of it. However Gary, initially was not talking at all about what he has seen. He only started talking about it in public interviews, when he could see no hope...

I think LIMITING THE FREEDOM ON AND OF THE INTERENT was one of the agendas this case was aimed to serve. In hindsight this has been achieved already, without Gary’s case even going to trial!!!!

It is also my observation that the minions of those who own this world often TELL US IN ADVANCE AND OPENLY WHAT THE PLAN IS! No wonder they think we are all stupid sheeple, ‘they tell us exactly what they are doing right to our face and we still don’t get it!’

I recall watching the news on the evening of that monumental day Sep 11, G Bush senior was televised giving a speech to some business conference. Out of all the things he could have said on this day and out of all the things he did say, this is what was televised (in the UK) He said - This event will change the way you use the internet for ever, it is too free and needs to be limited.

Needless to say the freedom we enjoyed using the internet pre 911 is but a faded memory now! And not just that freedom...

In the UK, pretty much anyone working in local council, can look into any aspect of an individual’s means of communication, without a court order! This includes emails, web browsing, telephone conversations - on line, mobile, or land lines, and snail mail too. Under the guise of terror legislation and despite huge public opposition, this is now a reality.

If you look at how this has been used so far? You will find it was also used against a normal family, registering their kids to a desirable local school.
Their emails were accessed by their local council on suspicion that they have lied on a school application form and to check if they indeed lived within the catchment's area of this school.

I also think that limiting the freedom we used to have using the internet, is but a small part of a bigger agenda, which goes something like this:

THERE IS NO WHERE TO HIDE! OUR EVERY MOVE COULD BE RESTRICTED AND IS MONITORED AND, WE ARE WILLINGLY TO PAY FOR THE PREVELAGE!

This agenda has already been fulfilled, save the biometrics ID, which is still to come worldwide.

Talking of pre-emptive legislation, please look into the changes to bankruptcy laws introduced (in the USA) in the last few years and, how relevant it suddenly became due to the current financial climate!!!! Those changes may also explain the rapid expansion of the building of boot camps/concentration camps/ work camps, what ever you want to call them.

Back to our subject, saying all of this, I don’t dismiss for a moment the possibility, that what Gary has seen on his cyber visits to those networks, is something that the PTB are willing to defend at all cost, in order to keep it secret.

Bevan’s Case, which was highlighted in one of my earlier posts and more recently by Kerry’s post may explain partly, why Gary was never charged in the UK. Beyond the fact that those who arrested him and had access to his computer, were satisfied that he was not a terrorist and he did not inflict any damages. It is possible, that Bevan case demonstrated the LOOP HOLES and Gary’s case was to be used to close all those loop holes. This may also explain why this case has been such a ‘work in progress’ in terms of moving the legal goal post...

Last edited by anonypony; 09-18-2008 at 02:15 PM.
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Old 09-18-2008, 06:36 PM   #114
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Default Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon

N.L.P. thought:

I have to ask anyone why the title "poor Gary" was used? That's simply setting up for more poverty thinking.... I just wonder sometimes. Because there is no poor. Its simply choosing to hold ourselves back by using thoughts like that.

Ok, off the box of soap....

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Old 09-18-2008, 06:49 PM   #115
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Default Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon

Atama and mike jetson are straight to the point with this issue-it stands outright to me that this is a media exercise by UK and US govts. in 'setting an example in what happens to those who don't play by the rules'.These govts. should scrutinise their own actions before casting the first stone.Gary's actions are very pale compared to that of the warmongers who wish him interned.I hope that the U.K. judicial system finds some measure of balance in this case and restore some sense of sanity and hope to the legal system.Not that there's much there initially!lol.
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Old 09-18-2008, 06:58 PM   #116
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Default Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon

The courts and governments are reflections of consciousness. We don't change consciousness through voting. ALTHOUGH voting is a reflection.... and expression, if you will, of your thoughts. We express it outwardly from the state of change INTERNALLY.

Namaste~
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Old 09-18-2008, 07:11 PM   #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BJ ∞ Trust Yourself View Post
The courts and governments are reflections of consciousness. We don't change consciousness through voting. ALTHOUGH voting is a reflection.... and expression, if you will, of your thoughts. We express it outwardly from the state of change INTERNALLY.

Namaste~
It can also be a vicious circle-the govts. and courts feed their consciousness back into society,an en masse break away from this circle is what's required.
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Old 09-18-2008, 07:43 PM   #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BJ ∞ Trust Yourself View Post
N.L.P. thought:

I have to ask anyone why the title "poor Gary" was used? That's simply setting up for more poverty thinking.... I just wonder sometimes. Because there is no poor. Its simply choosing to hold ourselves back by using thoughts like that.

Ok, off the box of soap....

I so agree with you on this one 100% !!!!! I felt the same way when I found this
thread a while after it was open.

The title of any thread is determined by the person who opened it, when they did,
and I am not sure if you can alter it later on, other then to ask the moderators or
administrator to change it.

Whoever opened this thread chose this title...
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Old 09-18-2008, 08:30 PM   #119
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What a great thread, and good post as well zorgon. I was wondering who made the quote that went something like, "it is more important to do the right thing even if it is against the rules of the establishment then it is to go along with it knowing its wrong." That is not even close to the quote but I figured someone would know what I am talking about. I think it could be one of the trancendentalist authors or maybe Einstine.
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Old 09-18-2008, 09:38 PM   #120
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Default Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon

I am only mildly familar with Gary's legal predicament, but it is my understanding he has been accused of hacking into secured US government and/or quasi-governmental computers alledgedly in violation of federal law.

I suspect that he will eventually plea to the charges and spend sometime in a federal prison, before being send back to the UK, after they have made a sufficient example of him. The vast majority of all criminal and civil cases resolve by pleas and settlements--80 to 90% or so of all cases end this way.

In the relatively unlikely event that he does go to trial, I doubt very much that the court will permit any evidence of the contents of the computers and the substance of what Gary claims to have found to be admitted into evidence. Indeed, before trial the prosecution will most likely obtain an order from the judge excluding any such evidence on the ground that it is irrelevant. They will do this by way of a motion in limne. Such a motion is filed by litigants asking the court to exclude evidence that is irrelevant, immaterial, cumulative, or unduly prejudicial in the sense that it appeals to passion, prejudice and bias, rather than sense and reason.

I have not looked at the laws under which he is charged, but I will bet you that the "crimes" he is charged with committing are committed by the act of hacking, and in no way is guilt or innocence a function of what you find when you hack. (Think about that for a minute.) Thus, what is found will be ruled irrelevant to establish the elements of the crime or any defenses thereto, and the federal judge (his case will be or already is in federal court) will rule that any such evidence is inadmissible.

For that reason no one, including Dan Burich, will be permitted to testify as to what Gary found in the computers nor give any factual testimony or expert opinion as to the truth or falsity of the contents of the computers.

The powers-that-be will, therefore, have no need to keep the media out of the trial, or assert national security, state secrects or some other legal fiction to keep the truth concerning the contents of the computers out of evidence, because the court will not permit the contents or substance of what Gary discovered in the computers into evidence, having determined that it is irrelevant to prove the elements of the crime or to prove Gary's innocence.

I'm sorry folks but, in my humble opinion, Gary's case will not provide the opportunity to prove that the government engages in black ops or is aware of extraterrestrial life forms who are in contact with we mere and mortal Earthlings, any more than the few cases filed by family members of the victims of 9/11 proved that 9/11 was an inside job. Albeit, the reasons the latter cases failed to get to the truth of 9/11 (immunity, failure to state a calim etc...) are different than why Gary's case will fail to get to the truth about alien life forms and visitations or government black ops.

Regards,

Stevan Looney
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Old 09-19-2008, 12:30 AM   #121
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Default Re: Poor Gary Mckinnon

....hate to be off-the-wall here, but i just have to say it...

amazing that this guy is getting all this heat. even more astounding is the possible sentence this man faces for hacking into a computer....

meanwhile....child abusers (of all types) are slapped on the wrist daily and walking away with meager sentences....


gotta love america....
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Old 09-19-2008, 01:07 AM   #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lawyerforliberty View Post
I am only mildly familar with Gary's legal predicament, but it is my understanding he has been accused of hacking into secured US government and/or quasi-governmental computers alledgedly in violation of federal law.

I suspect that he will eventually plea to the charges and spend sometime in a federal prison, before being send back to the UK, after they have made a sufficient example of him. The vast majority of all criminal and civil cases resolve by pleas and settlements--80 to 90% or so of all cases end this way.

In the relatively unlikely event that he does go to trial, I doubt very much that the court will permit any evidence of the contents of the computers and the substance of what Gary claims to have found to be admitted into evidence. Indeed, before trial the prosecution will most likely obtain an order from the judge excluding any such evidence on the ground that it is irrelevant. They will do this by way of a motion in limne. Such a motion is filed by litigants asking the court to exclude evidence that is irrelevant, immaterial, cumulative, or unduly prejudicial in the sense that it appeals to passion, prejudice and bias, rather than sense and reason.

I have not looked at the laws under which he is charged, but I will bet you that the "crimes" he is charged with committing are committed by the act of hacking, and in no way is guilt or innocence a function of what you find when you hack. (Think about that for a minute.) Thus, what is found will be ruled irrelevant to establish the elements of the crime or any defenses thereto, and the federal judge (his case will be or already is in federal court) will rule that any such evidence is inadmissible.

For that reason no one, including Dan Burich, will be permitted to testify as to what Gary found in the computers nor give any factual testimony or expert opinion as to the truth or falsity of the contents of the computers.

The powers-that-be will, therefore, have no need to keep the media out of the trial, or assert national security, state secrects or some other legal fiction to keep the truth concerning the contents of the computers out of evidence, because the court will not permit the contents or substance of what Gary discovered in the computers into evidence, having determined that it is irrelevant to prove the elements of the crime or to prove Gary's innocence.

I'm sorry folks but, in my humble opinion, Gary's case will not provide the opportunity to prove that the government engages in black ops or is aware of extraterrestrial life forms who are in contact with we mere and mortal Earthlings, any more than the few cases filed by family members of the victims of 9/11 proved that 9/11 was an inside job. Albeit, the reasons the latter cases failed to get to the truth of 9/11 (immunity, failure to state a calim etc...) are different than why Gary's case will fail to get to the truth about alien life forms and visitations or government black ops.

Regards,

Stevan Looney
Nice post...Thank you
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Old 09-19-2008, 06:55 PM   #123
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Quote:
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Dear Gary - do a runner.
If he can he should. I would NOT want to be in their meat grinder.

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Old 09-20-2008, 02:26 AM   #124
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If he can he should. I would NOT want to be in their meat grinder.
What does running accomplish?
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Old 09-20-2008, 12:46 PM   #125
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Just curious.

Did this guy do anything wrong in the eyes of Hacking supporters?

Proxy server trail leads FBI to Palin email hacker

By Humphrey Cheung
Friday, September 19, 2008 21:44

Anchorage (Alaska) – FBI agents are using proxy server logs to track down the hacker who broke into Sarah Palin’s Yahoo email account. The hacker gained access to the Republican Vice Presidential candidate’s account by resetting the password. He then posted details of his adventures up on a popular online forum, but that information is now leading reporters and federal investigators to the suspect – a Tennessee university college student and son of state democratic representative Mike Kernell.

A few days ago, someone going by the name of “Rubico” gloated on 4chan.org that he managed to hack into Sarah Palin’s Yahoo account. He forced a password reset by answering questions about Palin’s birthdate, zip code and where she met her spouse, Wasilla High School. Of course, by being the Republican candidate for Vice President, this information is all very easily found on the Internet. After answering the questions, Rubico reset the password to “popcorn” and read through Palin’s emails.

And it seems he was pretty thorough, saying he read, “ALL OF THEM” on the boards. He even posted up screenshots of the Yahoo email page, complete with the full URL (we’ll talk about that later). Rubico says he didn’t find anything incriminating and the emails were actually fairly mundane family pictures and correspondence. But his jubilation turned into horror as he realized that he didn’t take proper precautions in covering his tracks.

Rubico used a proxy server that shields the source IP address from website logging scripts. While this sounds great, Rubico posted, “Yes I was behind a proxy, only one, if this sh** ever got to the FBI I was FU****”

In his gloating, Rubico posted up screenshots of the Yahoo account complete with the full URL which included the proxy server url (ctunnel.com) appended with a unique identifier. For example, we used ctunnel.com to surf to YouTube and the URL reads - http://ctunnel.com/index.php/1010110...ebe14f44221026. So it doesn’t take a genius to go through the logs and match up the ID to the appropriate IP address and BAM, you got the hacker.

But aren’t proxy servers supposed to anonymize your information? Yes and no. Dan Goodin over at The Register talked to Gabriel Ramuglia, the owner of the ctunnel.com proxy server that Rubico allegedly used. Ramuglia is upset about the ordeal because his service was never meant to be used for illegal activies and says Rubico definitely broke his site’s terms of service. Ramuglia added that every incoming IP address is logged with the time and destination website.

Ramuglia told Goodin that he hasn’t a chance yet to examine his logs, but added that there is a good chance that it will lead to the hacker. Since the interview, he’s received a call from the Anchorage Alaska FBI field office and agents there are highly suggesting that he not lose the logs.

But it gets even better. White hat hackers didn’t even need proxy information to find the culprit because they discovered that the Rubico forum handle was linked to rubico10@yahoo.com.This e-mail address is being protected from spam bots, you need JavaScript enabled to view it A few searches on Google and YouTube further links this email address to 20-year-old David Kernell, a student at the University of Tennessee-Knoxville. His father is Democratic Tennessee state representative Mike Kernell.

As you can expect, the Yahoo account has been frozen and all the incriminating forum posts on 4chan.org have been deleted. But this didn’t stop Wired.com from printing some of the posts. Don’t you just love it when hackers brag about the “leet” skills?

http://www.tgdaily.com/index2.php?op...e=0&Itemid=108

================================================== =

So...this guy was looking for dirt on Palin.

Since she is an evil Republican, this is okay....right?

What if it was Barrack who was hacked?

What if it was you?

What if it was Project Camelot?

Many will say that Project camelot was hacked many times.

This could be true.

So do we really want to validate this, by saying that since the PtB did it first, we are okay it retaliating?

Do we fight evil with evil?
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