Go Back   Old Project Avalon Forum (ARCHIVE) > Project Avalon Forum > Project Avalon > Preparations / Advice

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-07-2010, 10:19 PM   #1
Steven
Avalon Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Temiscouata
Posts: 873
Default Today, the problem isnít over-population, itís over-consumption

Hi everyone. Since there is a thread about over-population, I will make one on over-consumption. Presently, my point-of-view tells me that there is no over-population problem, but rather an over-consumption problem, this is my view and here is why.

Knowing the Earth has limited resource and capacity, at a given number of inhabitants there is a maximum amount of resource available to consume. Or/and at a given amount of resource available to consume, there is a maximum number of inhabitants able to live without causing depletion. So, it is logical to know that there is a maximum number of people that Earth can sustain at a given amount of resource consumption for each inhabitant.

I do not agree with the over-population movement because of two reasons:

1-The maximum number of inhabitants Earth can sustain according to this movement. 500 millions.
2-The origin of this information, who are the sponsors. And the reasons behind.

My argument is that 500 million people on Earth is extremely under estimate Earth and humanity. So much, that it leaves few options. Or the ones who propagate this idea are completely insane, or they are totally unaware of Earth and human possibilities, or they know it too well and are not insane at all, but do it for the sake of more control over the global population... I think it is the later reason. Here is why.

The club of Rome is certainly the one group of people at the origin of this movement. It generates all sorts of studies about over-population problems since over 30 years. So, who created the Club of Rome? Here is a bit on its origin:
http://www.modernhistoryproject.org/...arn08-5#Origin

There are many known names appearing about the ones behind the scenes who sponsored this group. Those who know will recognize them. They are among the richest people on Earth and our voice is rarely listened by them. They have this old habit of saying to others what they should do and how to do it. Sponsoring the best studies to nail it firmly in our minds. Here is more on their claim on Earth population: http://www.overpopulation.org/solutions.html

The Georgia guidestones are also a sign of the Elite’s origin behind this idea, especially the number of 500 million inhabitants on Earth: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgia_Guidestones

A young man, spreading the vision of his fathers: http://freedominacage.com/Rothschild...Reduction.html (this link is broken) It was about the young Rothchild who began his crusade on over-population...

Some people pointing out the possibility of a hidden agenda from the Elite about population control: http://socioecohistory.wordpress.com...ion-reduction/

http://robertscourt.blogspot.com/200...al-from-6.html

What is population control and where it comes from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_control

On the other hand, if we take a look at the over-consumption problem, the first question to ask is what is the origin of this problem?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Over-consumption

http://www.globalissues.org/article/...ng-populations

Well, it isn’t that hard to resume. Over consumption comes from an economical system based on consumption. The more consumption, the more production, the more production, the more economical growth, the more economical growth, the more profit... Health, food, transport, housing, etc... More than ever, the things we consume are designed to last a short time and to be addictive, so we ultimately have no much choice but to participate in it. What amazes me is the tremendous amount of energy and resources wasted in the process. If we would ONLY produce less waste and manage it with common sense, we could drastically diminish the depletion of Earth resources.

Why so much waste in our economical system? It makes me think of a sister in Brazil. When I lived in Brazil I was working with the CDDH. Centro de defesa dos direitos humanos. I witnessed a human movement that would change the life of hundreds of the poorest citizen of Earth. In Belo Horizonte, there was a group of poor people living from the waste of the city’s citizen. Traveling in the city’s streets, they filled up there small horse carriage with all sorts of recycling waste, like paper, metal, wood and plastic. Impressive piles of recycling material were created and organized to packed up and sell them to different industries who would use them for their production. Their work condition was precarious and insalubrious. No need to say their salary was pretty low. Then came this sister with a vision. She fought ten years meeting mayors and other officials to convince them to employ these people. After all, they were already working for the city’s best future and many people were gratifying about their work for the community. She gathered enough influential people around the idea and succeeded to make her vision come true. When I left Brazil in 1998, they were employed by the city. With a uniform provided by the city, the workers had a salary and vacation. This is a small example on how we could shift our direction when we look for solution to resource depletion.

Instead of promoting this kind of solution, the same rich persons who sponsor the idea about over-population are the ones creating all kind of addiction in the masses, so they can rest assured that we will always come back to their stores. You want to sell food and drink? Put some sugar in it! Or salt! The amount of sugar (in weight) consumed on Earth is more than twice the amount of fruits and vegetable consumed. Keep them sick, weak and addicted... It’s very profitable and they stay asleep this way... The amount of paper was supposed to be reduced with the coming of the computer. What happened instead, more than ever we consume papers. Printers are available so we go and print! We ask for it. Create the need and we’ll provide the product.

Where fits Free energy in the script? Nowhere, it was pushed aside and covered. We as a race were heading there, following our technological and scientific advancement. It is natural to design and produce new technology that would be used for the benefit of all, but not in a world were a rich Elite governs self appointed. Tesla was one among others who stumble across free energy. And it felt right in the hand of the Elite, if they could not make money with it, than nobody would have it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wardenclyffe_Tower

Patents bought and locked hidden...

What about this fast food culture suddenly making its coming out in the ‘70s’? Once again, who profits and what are the consequences? No need for link I presume. The list goes on and on about entire sectors of our economy which are based on profits, consumerism and depletion of our resources. This is, in my point-of-view, the major problem Humanity is facing. The abyss between the richer and the poorer of our world is wide and increasing. We absolutely need to address this issue because all other attempt will lead to less freedom and more tyranny already way too much overused. This is where we will head if we accept this idea of over-population without addressing the real problem of the gap between riches and poors and the over consumerism system in which we are slaves.

If we take a step back and look at it with another point of view, more detached. Look at Earth’s nature, what is Earth’s nature? It is full of life and diversity of life. Life is abundant on Earth, it is its nature. 500 million is way too few for Earth. If we simply reduce our consumption and manage our waste with more responsibility, if we focus on respect of life instead of profits and money, if we address this issue of the increasing gap between riches and poors to reduce it by half of its size, Earth could maintain a population of 30 billion without even noticing a scratch.

What we need to do as a race is finding our rhythm. Earth and everything that lives has a rhythm. At a certain pace, we will maintain balance, but we need to do our part by addressing our own inner sickness mentioned above. Consuming with moderation, managing waste with common sense and imagination to reduce them to a minimum, and reducing the large gap between the poorers and the richers of our race. Sharing technologies that will bring FREE energy to the world. Let the real knowledge on health and how the body function to be shared with the public, so instead of poisoning us with food and pills, we will take care of our own little hiccup. Do I need to say, the richers have to be less, much less rich and participate actively in the real solutions. We the people are poorly represented at their courts.

The real living examples about solutions to another way of life are already here living their day-to-day life by millions. They have many names; I like to call them natives. I am not saying I envision to be as poor as they are, but rather as strong as they are. In a world where all will live a descent life without all these abominable economical gap...

My view...

Namaste, Steven

Last edited by Steven; 02-14-2010 at 07:38 PM.
Steven is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2010, 03:18 AM   #2
Steven
Avalon Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Temiscouata
Posts: 873
Default Re: Today, the problem isnít over-population, itís over-consumption

It certainly looks and sounds utopian and it is. It is the New Paradigm I envision and more then ever, it is a vision shared by more people. The crumbling foundation of the old mentality is fading away because of a global shift in consciousness. People are changing. Our kids are different. And the Universe we live in is bringing upon us the evolution our consciousness needs to make this vision a reality.

There is a bad news and there is a good news... When both are known, the good news solves the bad news and the problem is gone .

Namaste, Steven
Steven is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2010, 03:37 AM   #3
illuminate
Avalon Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: earth
Posts: 261
Default Re: Today, the problem isnít over-population, itís over-consumption

I agree... EXCELLENT view Steven!!!!

there's a lilly allen song called "the fear"
where some of her lyrics are:

" And I am a weapon of massive consumption
and its not my fault itís how Iím program to function... "


here in the U.S. we over consume everything
we're even called "consumers"

THX for staring this thread!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven View Post
There is a bad news and there is a good news... When both are known, the good news solves the bad news and the problem is gone .
very nice!

~ one love ~
illuminate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2010, 05:41 AM   #4
J_rod7
Avalon Senior Member
 
J_rod7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Florida, USA
Posts: 301
Arrow Re: Today, the problem isnít over-population, itís over-consumption

*******
***
*


Best Greetings All

Hi Steven. You've been expecting this call ... Yes?

In all Respect, these statements of Truth are submitted for Thoughtful Consideration:

1. The terrestrial human race is entering and witnessing a phase of very powerful cosmic change. It is a new era, a new age, which continually and distinctly becomes clearer to the eyes of observant, consciously more advanced human beings.

2. While most of mankind here on Earth lies in a deep abyss of ignorance and of consciousness' enslavement, it has become an urgent necessity, through thorough investigations, to find the causes of mankind's decline, and to demonstrate this to human beings in a correct, clear, and revealing message and lesson.

3. Simultaneously, it necessitates showing new ways, which would guide mankind toward a future of conscious comprehension and harmony.

4. It is now time, therefore, for the Earthling to open his eyes and ears and detach his enslaved thoughts from false teachings, to free himself from traditional falsehoods and all evil, and to finally comprehend everything according to the truth."


<From source:> ARAHAT ATHERSATA (Sanskit) which means: ďThe precious one who contemplates the timesĒ.

Excerpt from the inspired writing from a higher spiritform. Transmitted from a bodiless, immaterial and purely spiritual level.


Reference Link for additional Teachings to the Humans of Earth: ...


http://theyfly.com/spiritual/spiritu...rituallife.htm


Consume some Peace from these places while they still exist.










Find your Spirits' Truth and Peace in the Wild places left on the Earth,
before they are chopped-up for condos and strip-malls for more people.



http://www.theCircleForHumanity.net/

Salome = Peace

*
***
*******
J_rod7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2010, 04:14 PM   #5
Steven
Avalon Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Temiscouata
Posts: 873
Default Re: Today, the problem isnít over-population, itís over-consumption

Quote:
Originally Posted by illuminate View Post
I agree... EXCELLENT view Steven!!!!

there's a lilly allen song called "the fear"
where some of her lyrics are:

" And I am a weapon of massive consumption
and its not my fault it’s how I’m program to function... "


here in the U.S. we over consume everything
we're even called "consumers"

THX for staring this thread!


very nice!

~ one love ~
Thank you Illuminate. I do not know this song, but I totally agree with the lyrics.

Indeed, being called consumers says a lot about the mentality behind this system. Sellers sees humans as "consumers" and employers sees them as "human resources". So, we are consumers and human resources in this system mentality, which is in a long term view, very dangerous. Where does it stops?

There is a Universal Law called Balance/Harmony and I have neglected this Law in the thread "Where focus goes, Energy follows". I will update it soon. But this Law says that to have harmony, or to maintain or obtain harmony, you got to be in balance, or sometimes, in rhythm with the natural Creation.

This consumption system, with its mentality, does create a tremendous lack of balance, a tremendous unbalance in the world, which result in a tremendous lack of harmony. If we want to put ourselves on the track of harmony with nature/Creation, we got to respect this Law and going back to balance. That is why the gap between the riches and the poors of our world can not be avoided in order to improve our situation and assure a better future for our children.

Balance in All things, especially in our economical system is the way for a better future, no need to reduce the population or control it, no need for extra-terrestrial help, it is in our hands...

Hello J-Rod 7. Thank you for your sharing. I knew you would come to this thread and you are very welcome. We might have different point-of-view, but it is only good for the both of us to share them with respect. I must tell you that I really don't trust Billy Meir. He is manipulated the poor man. He might throw out some wisdom, but it does not mean his ultimate intends are for the best of humanity. And from what I have read from him, population control among other things, looks like the elite agenda on his table.

Namaste, Steven

Namaste, Steven
Steven is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2010, 04:20 PM   #6
aroundthetable
Avalon Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 410
Default Re: Today, the problem isnít over-population, itís over-consumption

The prob is over consumption, in so many ways. The prob would be the same if the world had only 12 people. Eating and collecting more than required is theft.
aroundthetable is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2010, 05:12 PM   #7
Steven
Avalon Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Temiscouata
Posts: 873
Default Re: Today, the problem isnít over-population, itís over-consumption

Quote:
Originally Posted by aroundthetable View Post
The prob is over consumption, in so many ways. The prob would be the same if the world had only 12 people. Eating and collecting more than required is theft.
Exactly, it all depends how we manage our resources. The idea of over-population implies a deep selfish/evil spirit to human people. "If they are too many, they will cause destruction..." And it is not the case, because the course of our society is brought and imposed upon us as soon as we born, by a rich elite caste who do not represent the masses, self-appointed sovereigns in whom nobody voted maintained over centuries at the top of the "detached" pyramid.

Here is an example how dangerous it might become to propagate this idea, this shows how far we can be brainwashed and beleive human poeple are deeply foreign to Nature. J-Rod 7, tell me what you think about this: The Voluntary Human Extinction Movement

http://www.vhemt.org/

Of course, it is the extreme. But still says a lot only by its existence. The reality is that WE ARE PART OF NATURE AND EARTH'S WILL, controlled by few powerful brainwashers...

Namaste, Steven
Steven is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2010, 06:40 PM   #8
beren
Avalon Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Belgrade,Serbia
Posts: 508
Default Re: Today, the problem isn’t over-population, it’s over-consumption

Steven you are absolutely right. Whole post is good.
But there is a catch with us humans now. We are hooked on drugs and drugs are everything that you have described in thread.

95% or even more WISH not to change their life style. Well they `d like clean earth and better life for all and rest but IT must include that they DO not abandon their SUV`s or seven bedroom houses (where actually three people lives)...

Core of the matter is soul and heart and they are corrupted.

You have read Bible ,I guess that by your posts . Or if you have not yet , you will find that this is EXACTLY the thing we are in war of. Our heart and our soul. If someone rules that ,he controls everything in this earth.

It is written there that that evil entity named Satan (adversary - hmmm to whom?!?) wishes nothing else but our soul and heart.
He does not need riches or gold or whatever physical , he needs our very essence. He ( or whatever he is - spirit,or any other entity) did very hard work and almost 100& of humanity is deceived.

We simply can not go forward into all light and beautiful future that we can create until we fix the core problem. That is ,where we wish our heart and soul to stand for. On and for the light or we choose darkness?

We can choose ,that is our gift. No matter what do we think about Creator of the universe or this or that. We reap what we sow and if we sow in dark we reap darkness...and you see the fruits of darkness we reaped throughout history.

I choose to sow in light... my wish is to help others ,at least one person on this ,earth to open their eyes and choose wisely...

I came a long journey in my life , a journey of hard days and hard nights in learning and opening my eyes , in learning to live ,to love .
I still have many things to learn and to grow in love ,wisdom and all other light fruits.
I wish that we all do that- to sow the seeds in light, love and wisdom.
I wish that we all have heart of love.

Last edited by beren; 02-14-2010 at 06:44 PM.
beren is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2010, 06:45 PM   #9
viking
Avalon Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 1,709
Default Re: Today, the problem isnít over-population, itís over-consumption

Hi Steven....you've had your thinking hat on again...

Great thread...gets you thinking doesn't it!!

A start would be to replace 'competetion' with 'co-operation' ... that would be a start to a new way... problem is there are too many greedy bastards on this planet not wanting to give way!!...

We can live in hope!!

viking
viking is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2010, 06:55 PM   #10
J_rod7
Avalon Senior Member
 
J_rod7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Florida, USA
Posts: 301
Arrow Re: Today, the problem isnít over-population, itís over-consumption

*******
***
*


Greetings in Truth: in Peace to All,

Steven, we need to get beyond this "elite versus the rest of us" stuff and 'drill-down' to what's going on in this world. For this, we should find some 'common ground' to work from to explore the problems. Our perceptions are almost 'polar-opposites', and the Truth is somewhere in the middle.

First, do we really understand what is meant by "Creation?"

This is an easy concept, once proper 'terms' are defined. This subject leads us to understand the SOVEREIGNTY of EVERY INDIVIDUAL HUMAN.

We are given to understand Creation ...

[ Creation is The Creation and there exists no Creation other than it within its own Universe.]

[ Creation is the Creation of all creations such as the Universe, the galaxies, stars, earths (earth is equivalent to 'planets' in this context), skies, light and darkness, time, space and all multitudes of life forms in existence, each according to its own species.]

[ Creation is justice, love, strength, wisdom, knowledge, compassion, freedom, mercy, laws, directive, alliance, fulfillment, evolution, life, support, joy, beauty, peace, infallibility, equilibrium, spirit, forever, logic, growth, perfection, contentment, inexhaustibility, omnipotence, sweetness, infinity, solidarity, perception, harkening, elevation, the Sohar, gentleness, lucidity, purity, transformation, origin, future, power, reverence, allness and BEING.]

[ Creation is the BEING and non-BEING of life. It is the most immense mass of spiritual energy in the Universe.]

[ Creation is spirit in its purest form and immeasurable in its wisdom, knowledge, love and harmony in truth.]

[ Creation is a spiritually dynamic, pure-spirit energy that prevails over everything. Incomprehensible for human beings, it is an active, creative wisdom in the midst of its own incessant evolution; it is all-encompassing for all times.]


Reference: http://www.futureofmankind.co.uk/mei...s/glossary.htm

To this, I will add that every Human Spirit in this Universe is a part of the Creation, in essence: a 'hologram' of Spiritual Energy sent forth from the Creation in the innumerable Billions. As such, individual Spirit-Forms never lose connection with Creation, are endowed with Free Will by which each is Sovereign.

Human Spirit takes on material embodiment on the Billions of habitable Worlds in the Universe. Human Spirit Evolves through Millions of lifetimes by a process of reincarnation which takes 60-B to 80-Billion years, gaining vast Knowledge, Light, Wisdom, Truth, Love, Powers &c which increases through each life. The ultimate goal of every Human is to merge again in fullness with Creation, bearing the total sum of all this, as our gift to enhance the Evolution of the Creation itself.

These thoughts are really only the 'tip-of-the-iceburg' in understanding Creation and the Humans' part in the total Evolution process. To do proper justice to this would fill books. There is an excellent short essay (about one page) = Introduction to the Creation, What Is the Creation? Recommended to read here: ...

http://www.theyfly.com/spiritual/creation/creation.htm

Once we have a common understanding here, let's continue with our dialog -- "Over-Consumption vs Over-Population." Also, having just a quick look at -- The Voluntary Human Extinction Movement -- I'll say that THOSE people need a strong infusion of common-sense into their thinking.

Namaste


*
***
*******

Last edited by J_rod7; 02-14-2010 at 08:01 PM.
J_rod7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2010, 11:28 PM   #11
Steven
Avalon Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Temiscouata
Posts: 873
Default Re: Today, the problem isnít over-population, itís over-consumption

Quote:
Originally Posted by beren View Post
...95% or even more WISH not to change their life style. Well they `d like clean earth and better life for all and rest but IT must include that they DO not abandon their SUV`s or seven bedroom houses (where actually three people lives)...
Hello Beren. I know many are hooked to their lifestyle, but it's not the majority of the world. The world economic system is build upon a small 20% percent of the populace who consume 80% of the production. Maybe 95% of this 20% would not want to reduce their consummation rate... But, the 80% populace who produce most of what we consume is certainly open for equality.

Just to give you a very concrete example of what I am referring to. In 1989, I worked in Sulawesi, Indonesia in a region called Kolaka, in a village near the sea called Uluwolo. I was working for... human rights, under a development project, because Human rights at that time in Indonesia was rather taboo, I am referring to what happened in Timor. Anyway, the familly who welcomed me was coffee and cocoa farmer. They used to produce fairly large quantity of cocoa and coffee and once a month, trucks came to the village to take the crops to bring them to Kolaka. In a year living with them, if I drank 7 cups of coffee from their crops, I am being generous... Why? Because they had to sell it all. Every single grain of coffee was sold for a bit of money. Same for cocoa. They were living in a simple house in a beautiful valley near the sea. A paradise. They lacked of nothing, but their life was very very simple. This is the life of more than 5 billions of people on Earth. These people are the ones who are, by their lifestyle, an example to the world.

I know what I am saying is drastic and very hard to contemplate for some of us. But their is no other way if we want to obtain balance.

There is enough land for all of us to have a piece of land to live from it. There is enough technology for all to receive a decent life with the primary needs to be meet. There is enough resource for all to be healthy and in good shape. There is enough work for all to participate in the society. The lack is hidden behind an enormous greedy system based on profits and selfishness...

Quote:
Originally Posted by viking View Post
...A start would be to replace 'competetion' with 'co-operation' ... that would be a start to a new way...
Indeed, it is all about consciousness, this is where real change born... That is what's coming dear friend.

Quote:
Originally Posted by J_rod7 View Post
...Steven, we need to get beyond this "elite versus the rest of us" stuff and 'drill-down' to what's going on in this world...

Well, "elite versus the rest of us" is part of whats going on in the world. You can not avoid it if you want to make a significant change in the society. If not, we will simply perpetrate the same old Paradigm with new players as Elite...

For this, we should find some 'common ground' to work from to explore the problems. Our perceptions are almost 'polar-opposites', and the Truth is somewhere in the middle. First, do we really understand what is meant by "Creation?" This is an easy concept, once proper 'terms' are defined. This subject leads us to understand the SOVEREIGNTY of EVERY INDIVIDUAL HUMAN. We are given to understand Creation.
..
I agree that we need "common ground", but I am not buying the Billy Meir version of Creation. I do not rely on "others" to define my understanding of Creation, I simply rely on the spirit in me. I hope you would do the same and leave this "guru" behind for a time. Nevertheless, I find a lot of wisdom in what you have written.

Tell me, what is Creation from your heart's point of view?

Namaste, Steven
Steven is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2010, 07:32 AM   #12
J_rod7
Avalon Senior Member
 
J_rod7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Florida, USA
Posts: 301
Arrow Re: Today, the problem isnít over-population, itís over-consumption

*******
***
*


Hi Steven,

I'm going to write "short and simple" at this time. My wife just left for two weeks to go stay with her niece in another state, which is the daughter of her dying sister - in and out of Hospitals and Hospice - are living. She is keeping me updated now with daily phone calls. Her Sister, now in her 80s, was also a good friend of mine, along with all the rest of my wife's family, when we also lived there (30-26-yrs ago). Everyone there is on a 'Death watch', giving mutual comfort as is natural in such situations. I have several appointments with my doctors and Oncologists at the Tampa VA Hospital, or otherwise I would also be there with her and the family.

Personally, the Creation is the source of my Being, and the source of my inspiration in Nature.

The Creation is far above all the 'gods' which came to Earth (from the various different Stars) to impose their will on various segments of Humanity. These blinded the minds of the people, enslaved them to produce gold and treasures for them, and taught the Humans the ways of War to battle the Humans under the control of the other 'gods.'

Far worse are all the 'gods' invented in the minds of those which established the various religions to further control the Human 'masses', otherwise known as the 'sheeple.' The wort of all is the unholy roman Catholick chirch which slaughtered more innocent Humans in fires &c during 'the Inquisitions' than ever did the Nazis, which, by the way: look at who's now the most-high unholy pope.

Now then, I have been a long-time supporter and reader of Project Camelot, ... Long before Project Avalon was ever an idea. If you would like to see the large numbers of 'insiders' (interviewed by Bill and Kerry over the years) which consider the Overpopulation to be THE priority issue, simply go on over to Camelot and type overpopulation into the 'search' box. Then read what they each has to say on the subject (inter-woven into their full interviews).

After all my own 'running around in circles' yesterday and today, I feel like I've been pulled through a knothole, it's now 2:30 in the morning, an gotta get some rest. So much for 'short nand simple,' G'nite, Good day, or whatever it is.

Namaste


*
***
*******

Last edited by J_rod7; 02-16-2010 at 07:55 AM.
J_rod7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2010, 02:59 PM   #13
Steven
Avalon Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Temiscouata
Posts: 873
Default Re: Today, the problem isnít over-population, itís over-consumption

Quote:
Originally Posted by J_rod7 View Post
...Personally, the Creation is the source of my Being, and the source of my inspiration in Nature...

The Creation is far above all the 'gods' which came to Earth (from the various different Stars) to impose their will on various segments of Humanity. These blinded the minds of the people, enslaved them to produce gold and treasures for them, and taught the Humans the ways of War to battle the Humans under the control of the other 'gods.'...

I like your personal view on Creation.

Now then, I have been a long-time supporter and reader of Project Camelot, ... Long before Project Avalon was ever an idea. If you would like to see the large numbers of 'insiders' (interviewed by Bill and Kerry over the years) which consider the Overpopulation to be THE priority issue, simply go on over to Camelot and type overpopulation into the 'search' box. Then read what they each has to say on the subject (inter-woven into their full interviews)...
I disagree with the idea of overpopulation even if it comes from camelot whistleblowers. Here is a careful study resume which bring the problem in perspective:

Quotes:
'Who most affects the environment? According to one estimate, a person in the U.S. has 50 times more adverse impact than someone in Bangladesh. An American, on the average, consumes 50 times as much steel and 300 times as much plastic as someone in India. When one examines consumption rather than just population, the environmental problem of scarcity looks very different.'

Here the whole text: http://www1.umn.edu/ships/ethics/consume.htm

Just take the population of India, which is enourmous, almost 5 times the U.S. population. If you only look at population, one would say, India has too many people. But if you also consider the consumption, U.S. consume 50 times more steel and 300 times more plastic with 5 times less people!!! How one can avoid this data?

The burden should NOT be only on the poor countries shoulders, once again, because they are more populated, because when you talk about overpopulation, India/China/Asian countries and Africa are the ones pointed at. It is also imperative that northern rich countries take an objective look at their own behaviors in this imposed system...

And by the way, who are these people saying there is an overpopulation problem, all northern poeple... It is way more easy to put the blame on someone else rather than taking responsibility on the global aspect of the problem.

Namaste, Steven

Last edited by Steven; 02-16-2010 at 03:08 PM.
Steven is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2010, 03:00 PM   #14
beren
Avalon Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Belgrade,Serbia
Posts: 508
Default Re: Today, the problem isnít over-population, itís over-consumption

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven View Post
Hello Beren. I know many are hooked to their lifestyle, but it's not the majority of the world. The world economic system is build upon a small 20% percent of the populace who consume 80% of the production. Maybe 95% of this 20% would not want to reduce their consummation rate... But, the 80% populace who produce most of what we consume is certainly open for equality.



Namaste, Steven
Hey Steven!

I agree with you. But in the middle of our mutually painted picture here bumps human greed. Say if you give all other 5 or more billion people same means and choices as the first 1 or more billion that live kinda recklessly in the mildest way or spending heavily and waste all around them ,will they still wish to live decent ,humble and very simple life?

I doubt it.
beren is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2010, 03:18 PM   #15
housemouse2
Avalon Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 117
Default Re: Today, the problem isnít over-population, itís over-consumption

I saw a presentation on the disappearing middle class in America not long ago. I cannot recall the lady's name that did the presentation but is on the web.

The presentation was done by a Harvard professor who merely crunched numbers and compared a 4 person family from 40 years ago to today. What she found to my surprise was not "over consumption" but rather the cost of living had surpasses the rate of inflation even with 2 income homes of today.

Housing had increased 75% past the rate of inflation alone.

The average male now makes 5% less a year than the average male did 40 years ago.

Cost of food was interesting: We buy less meat than our parents did but we do buy more pasta. We also rely on grocery stores when in the past we had more family farms.

transportation: We do have more cars per familily today but also keep them longer than they did 40 years ago.

Insurance has increased 50% past the rate of inflation.

Education is also different now. Public schools have gone up 50% past the rate of inflation. But more concerning is college which has shot up 400% past the rate of inflation. And due to the abundance of degrees and lack of jobs...college is now a waste of an investment.
housemouse2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2010, 06:02 PM   #16
Steven
Avalon Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Temiscouata
Posts: 873
Default Re: Today, the problem isnít over-population, itís over-consumption

Quote:
Originally Posted by beren View Post
Hey Steven!

I agree with you. But in the middle of our mutually painted picture here bumps human greed. Say if you give all other 5 or more billion people same means and choices as the first 1 or more billion that live kinda recklessly in the mildest way or spending heavily and waste all around them ,will they still wish to live decent ,humble and very simple life?

I doubt it.
If the system would stay the same, of course it could not do a difference. The economical system in place is based on consumption. If we do not answer to this foundamental problem first and simply offer to the poeple of the southern countries the same power of buying that we have in the north, they will go shopping until the last cents. We do not do better, worse, we borrow when the last cent is spent.

What I think would be an alternative is an economical system based on harmony with nature. It might look funny at first glance, but ultimatly, there is no other better choice, simply because what we consume comes from nature.

Let me give you an example. Actually, it is hard for any country in the world, to buy locally. Almost anything comes from outside, especially China. What a waste of energy to transport all these products. 'Made in China' to me means a sacrifice from the chinese poeple to enrich already rich people, cutting drastically the work charge for all other contries in the world. As template to produce cheap quality products that will last a very short time and will need to be bought again and again... That is the root of the problem with waste.

If only we, as a race, answer to this problem we will find solution. It is already happening in many countries. It is slow because of the tremendous inertia created by World Organisations like the World Trade Organisation. I do not beleive 'they' will care to create such a change, we got to get into the popular movement when it passes by and 'they' will have no other choice but to come along.

Namaste, Steven
Steven is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2010, 05:42 AM   #17
J_rod7
Avalon Senior Member
 
J_rod7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Florida, USA
Posts: 301
Arrow Re: Today, the problem isnít over-population, itís over-consumption

*******
***
*


Greetings to all,

This came to me in an email, the linx do not seem transfer >>>

!!!~~~!!!~~~!!!~~~

Having trouble viewing this email? Click here
Hooked on Growth: Help for an intoxicated society!

The UK Guardian published a particularly poignant column by George Monbiot in December 2009 - This is bigger than climate change. It is a battle to redefine humanity. I'll share the very essence of it here, but please be sure you read the entire column. You will not regret it.

While economies grow, social justice is unnecessary, as lives can be improved without redistribution. While economies grow, people need not confront their elites. While economies grow, we can keep buying our way out of trouble. But, like the bankers, we stave off trouble today only by multiplying it tomorrow. Through economic growth we are borrowing time at punitive rates of interest.

Even if we manage to prevent climate breakdown, growth means that it's only a matter of time before we hit a new constraint, which demands a new global response: oil, water, phosphate, soil. We will lurch from crisis to existential crisis unless we address the underlying cause: perpetual growth cannot be accommodated on a finite planet.

This sums up why Dave Gardner's documentary, Hooked on Growth: Our Misguided Quest for Prosperity, is so important. In Hooked on Growth, Dave is holding up a mirror and waking us from our drunken stupor. Yes, our society is drunk on growth, and it is time for an intervention.

I'm writing to remind you that whatever noble cause you're working on, Dave has your back. His film draws a laser-like focus on the root cause of nearly every problem we're trying to rectify. We all need to help Dave raise the funds to finish the film and build the network to organize screenings. Dave tells me he will complete Hooked on Growth in 2010, with our help.

If you haven't yet encouraged everyone in your network to join the grassroots support network for this film; if you haven't kicked in a tax-deductible contribution, it's not too late. But as Monbiot wrote, "we are borrowing time at punitive rates of interest." The clock is ticking.

Here are the links you need to help:

Hooked on Growth Trailer & Info.
Make a Tax-Deductible Contribution
Subscribe to E-mail Updates
Extended Preview/Discussion with Filmmaker
Facebook Page
Twitter
Join Our Collaborators & Volunteers Network
Contact Dave
Photos, Graphics & Description to Help You Publicize the Film

!!!~~~!!!~~~!!!~~~!!!~~~

So the question arises = How do we encourage Humans to consume less or to procreate less , which will have the greatest impact going forward into the future of life on this Earth>

In Peace =Salome = Namaste

*
***
*******
J_rod7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2010, 07:33 AM   #18
Humble Janitor
Avalon Senior Member
 
Humble Janitor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 3,201
Default Re: Today, the problem isnít over-population, itís over-consumption

Why are we so fixated on "problems"? The only problem is that we have a power structure that despises people and will do anything to put these thoughts into our heads.
Humble Janitor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-20-2010, 03:21 AM   #19
Steven
Avalon Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Temiscouata
Posts: 873
Default Re: Today, the problem isnít over-population, itís over-consumption

Thank you J-Rod7 for this letter. I am in agreement with the absurdity of continual growth. It is totally illogical to pursue continuous growth in a definite world. And if it means that a compromise between conscientious limited birth and production/consumption reduction plus efficient waste management would bring forth harmony with nature, then we have a vision, bearer of a true hope. But the solution is certainly in a shift in consciousness for everyone walking on Earth. Until this day, we may still struggle in between half-solution.

On the other hand, it is easy to fall into the trap of scientific "evidence". The trust we put into these "evidence" shroud the faith we should keep in Creation. It is always good to remember, especially in dire times, that Nature is a sentient, caring living and she considers each of us as a child. When you look at history, you always find a time where Nature provided the means for humanity to stay. Just before the last Ice Age, humanity learned the use of fire...

Namaste, Steven
Steven is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2010, 12:40 PM   #20
Steven
Avalon Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Temiscouata
Posts: 873
Default Re: Today, the problem isnít over-population, itís over-consumption

The dept

In my opinion, the dept is directly link with the root of the problem. Because the dept grows continuously, the concept of national growth has all its reason to exist. We got to produce more because we are more in dept... What an abominable pattern. The economical concept of dept serves only one purpose, to assure a position of strength from the loaner. If the loaner has already this advantage worldwide since centuries, it assures a near total control over the masses. If a dept could be ruled itself, by a more ethical way, it wouldn’t reach the level of economical “slavery” that causes so many problems to the majority of humanity plus an aggressive impact on Earth’s life. A simple example to improve how the mechanism of the dept could be by limiting the amount of times the original capital has been already paid.

The ethical and acceptable reason why interest is included in the deal is to make profits. Not to enslave. It also forces the borrower to pay back in due time. The reality is that interest becomes the tool to maintain a relationship of dependence between the loaner and the borrower. This relationship has all the element of a victim consciousness in which freedom is oppressed in favor of the power of one over another. If this practice last for too long, the progressive influence of a few becomes worldwide and controls the life of millions of people, this is our situation after more than 500 years of Western financial activities.

Pay it twice, not more...

If we limit this concept in a more ethical way, after the initial capital would have been paid twice, no matter if there’s still an amount of the dept left, the transaction would become completed, considering the loaner has made enough profit. The financial activities would be still viable, but reduced to lesser impact in our life.

It is unacceptable to be continuously ruled by economical powers. Life is much more than economy alone and much has been put aside for the profit of this gluttonous human activity. When you look at countries in the world, the very large majority of them are in dept. Many have already paid several times the initial capital, some of them up to more than ten times! And for an increasing number, it becomes clearer that the dept will never be paid...

We should review this activity with a new perspective, from nature. Does Earth’s nature enslave itself? Why is this behavior still ongoing in our society and almost never questioned? Are we unaware? Do we lack trust in ourselves and afraid to change the economical rules? Do we feel not united enough to create a change?

A waste of human work

When our taxes go into a hole without bottom, we should wake up and say enough of this masquerade. Imagine all the human energy put into this waste, just to make a few richer and more influential over the population. Money from taxes = human energy. All this energy could be put into solution to solve our environment impact on nature. Of course, we can come out with “realistic” view saying; there is nothing we can do about it because we lack unity. Or that everyone disagrees on details and forgets the more important things to do first. Or that we do not have the leadership to bring it forward. Views all understandable, but we got to keep the faith alive if we want to produce a change. Because changes will not come from an effort of the will, nor an armed revolution, but from a shift in consciousness. So, we got to stay focus on our goal. Be realist, ask for the impossible!

Namaste, Steven

Last edited by Steven; 02-21-2010 at 03:17 PM.
Steven is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2010, 05:12 PM   #21
Steven
Avalon Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Temiscouata
Posts: 873
Default Re: Today, the problem isnít over-population, itís over-consumption

Quote:
Originally Posted by Humble Janitor View Post
Why are we so fixated on "problems"? The only problem is that we have a power structure that despises people and will do anything to put these thoughts into our heads.
I agree Humble, but balance in all things. The thread is about presenting a problem under another perspective. Instead of saying humanity is the problem (overpopulation), it says human behavior is the problem (overconsumption). And the solutions for both option are quite different. Instead of talking about birth control and depopulation, it talks about reviewing completely our economical system to adapt it to Nature. Which is a totally New Paradigm...

Namaste, Steven

Last edited by Steven; 02-22-2010 at 01:27 AM.
Steven is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-22-2010, 09:27 PM   #22
Frank Samuel
Project Avalon Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: i live in puerto rico
Posts: 643
Talking Re: Today, the problem isnít over-population, itís over-consumption

Hi Steven while I do agree that Humans tend to over consume. We do have the resources to feed twice the amount of people of this Earth. Learning to create nutritionist foods they do not have to be completely natural as long as they are nutritionist. For example my two youngest children drink powder milk, a lot cheaper than Cow milk . They are very healthy. Our concepts about nutrition, energy and the use of living spaces needs to change. Recently in India a new car came into the market that runs on compressed air call the Nano car. This car is 4x cheaper than the average car in the markets today and it runs on compressed air. Learning to create cheaper more effective technologies, food sources, living spaces you name it is all in the way we approach a problem. Is too convenient for the ptw to try and justify population and resources control to lower the population rate by any means necessary . They are quickly loosing control of the general populace as many people are learning to use their resources, shopping smarter , in general relearning how to live a simpler healthier life and in the process trying to help our neighboring countries to do the same. We can learn from many poor countries about how to use everything in nature as sustenance, and how to live in Harmony with our surroundings. Do we really need the fast cars the large houses and all of the toys and expensive foods that we enjoy or could we do with less. So while I agree with you it is our misconceptions about what our lives on this planet should be in terms of how we coexist with one another and how we learn to share our lives and resources with one another, there's a lot of room for improvement in this area and a lot of innovative solutions to resolve our problems from every corner of the globe there are futurist inventors who already have incredible solutions to the problems we are facing today, like I said while we let these dummies in the political arena run our lives the solutions are found elsewhere with the common folks who are implementing these solutions already.. I am looking forward to our future and being a part of the innovative solutions to create a world that could coexist in Harmony and Balance with one another.
Frank Samuel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-22-2010, 10:45 PM   #23
tintagelcave
Avalon Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 76
Default Re: Today, the problem isnít over-population, itís over-consumption

http://www.fritzhaeg.com/webvideo/ee08-lenape-web.mov

Hi there, here's a link to a video with the natural history and indiginous folk of Manhattan, by Fritz Haeg, an artist and designer, who initiated the edible landscape concept. There's lots of inspirational ideas on his website and he just started, since childhood, from working on designing a world around him as he dreamed it should be. Isn't that great? I met Fritz in my 3-D garden in the park near my home, in a meeting on creating animal housing in there.
This picture is the center of that garden, all used material, recycled.

Groenkapel 05-2008 (13).jpg


There's great value in growing your own food and join hands in a community, I think. Even sitting in nature, a special spot, every day, being aware and awake, while sungazing or fairies gazing........getting to know nature, is a beautiful healing experience, even for 15 minutes a day.
tintagelcave is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-22-2010, 11:24 PM   #24
Steven
Avalon Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Temiscouata
Posts: 873
Default Re: Today, the problem isnít over-population, itís over-consumption

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Samuel View Post
...We can learn from many poor countries about how to use everything in nature as sustenance, and how to live in Harmony with our surroundings. Do we really need the fast cars the large houses and all of the toys and expensive foods that we enjoy or could we do with less. So while I agree with you it is our misconceptions about what our lives on this planet should be in terms of how we coexist with one another and how we learn to share our lives and resources with one another, there's a lot of room for improvement in this area and a lot of innovative solutions to resolve our problems from every corner of the globe there are futurist inventors who already have incredible solutions to the problems we are facing today...
Hello Frank. I totally agree with your whole post. I agree that the post have not concentrate its focus on alternate means to use Earth's resources, it was more a response versus the overpopulation idea. There is indeed many awesome alternative to improve the way we produce and consume. In Canada, we are lucky to count on David Suzuki. This guy proposed about 20 years ago, to use all the space available on the top of city's buildings to transform them into garden. From a plane view, a city would look like a green garden.

The solutions are all there already, it is our will (I'm talking globally) that is not there yet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tintagelcave View Post
...Hi there, here's a link to a video with the natural history and indiginous folk of Manhattan, by Fritz Haeg, an artist and designer, who initiated the edible landscape concept. There's lots of inspirational ideas on his website and he just started, since childhood, from working on designing a world around him as he dreamed it should be. Isn't that great? I met Fritz in my 3-D garden in the park near my home, in a meeting on creating animal housing in there.
Thank you so much tintagelcave for your sharing. I agree 100%. The problem is not us, human, but our behavior. Like a child in a daycare, it can be improved to a better harmony...

Namaste, Steven
Steven is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 01:58 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Project Avalon