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Old 12-20-2009, 08:51 PM   #1
sjkted
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Default Community Project

Hello All,

When I first bumped into Project Camelot a few years ago, I was inspired by George Green's concept of the groundcrew and communities. It seems like a community is the model that will ultimately work today and well into the future. With all of the research I've done, I feel we are reaching an ending point: our current structures are crumbling including government, industrial food, transportation systems, environment, monetary, moral/ethical standards. There is no doubt in my mind that these are all completely unsustainable -- the big question is when they will fall apart and by what will they be replaced?

I've set about to research Intentional Communities or Self Organized Communities and have been a little disappointed by what I have seen. The majority of communities I have found are for followers of a specific religious path. Many of the others are basically real estate deals to buy a parcel of land with the opportunity to build your own home and join a Home Owner's Association with a eco-friendly bent.

I have nothing ill to say about either of these paths, but I have found that neither is right for me and I am unconvinced that these models are the solution to the above issues, although they are a big improvement over the concrete empire that many of us loosely call home.

I'm writing a blog on the major issues regarding the creation of a community and how a tribe of people can be as self sufficient as possible and live off the land with minimal dollar/money cost. In order for these solutions to work, they must be renewable, good to the environment, and relatively inexpensive and easy to use. There are many survival guides on topics such as surviving in the woods or surviving a nuclear catastrophe, but none of them seem to detail how to survive the long-term destruction of our civilization. It has been said that no man is an island unto himself. Just as it is nearly impossible to survive by oneself in a system dominated by money, it will be almost impossible to make it in the future alone. Any topics discussed must be applicable to groups who can split up tasks and create new ways of organization never before seen.

Here are the main topics on the list:

1. Sanitation / Hygiene
2. Water
3. Communication
4. Living / Shelter
5. Security/Protection
6. Health/Medical/Healing
7. Transporation
8. Food / Cooking
9. Energy

Following these are a discussion on topics such as financing, legal issues, property ownership, rules, community organization, etc.

The goal is to produce some sort of a "business plan" on how a small number of individuals can take ownership of a land and create a community and sustainable economies with other local communities. It need not be a rigid plan, but it should be able to guide urbanites to switching over their lifestyle without making too many mistakes.

I am proposing that I post these topics and my research here on Avalon first and then after receiving comment from other members and input who have topic experience and expertise on other methods. Once this is done, I'll post in an edited (condensed) form on the blog.

I'm writing here not as an expert who has been there, done that but as a researcher who is very interested in creating a model that people could use to transition from the corporate world into a community/nature world.

I would appreciate your comments and ideas here.

-- sjkted
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Old 12-22-2009, 05:22 AM   #2
asteram
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Default Re: Community Project

Some ideas to discuss:

Planned Community General Agreements (draft)

1. Each family or resident has their own space that they own free and clear. Once vested they cannot lose their space. There are no taxes to be paid or other obligations to be met to retain ownership of this space.

a. Space cannot be sold unless one is leaving the community.

b. Space may be traded with another if all neighbors (how close?) approve.

c. Space may only be sold to someone from outside with the approval of all members of the community.

Q: How does one "buy in" or become vested?

Q: Under what circumstances could a member lose their membership in the community?

2. The community has a common economic focus, i.e. the goods/services produced for sale or trade are those that the members are interested in producing. (Example: The economic focus of this community will be decorative arts and crafts and growing flowers and ornamental plants.)

Income from these activities will be used in this order of priority:

a. First priority is the payment of the common external debts and bills. (e.g. taxes)

b. Second priority is to maintain/improve community infrastructure (and buy food?).

c. Third priority is to distribute income to individual members based on their contribution to earning the income.

Each member is free to earn personal income as well, and to keep their earnings.

3. Qualifications for joining the community:

a. No psychopaths allowed. No one with a desire for power or control over others may ever be in a position of authority.

b. Psychological tests will be a part of qualifying. This is far more important than applying for a job, this is long-term commitment to living and working together towards common goals. There are some good tests out there, including emotional IQ tests.

c. Each prospective member must have a strong interest in the goals and economic activity of the community. Spouses and dependent children are excepted from this requirement.

d. Each member must have clearly defined skills and abilities that contribute to the goals and economic focus of the community.

e. Each member must be approved and accepted by all other members of the community.

4. Rules and obligations of community members:

a. Coercion is not allowed or tolerated, nor is freeloading or taking advantage of others.

b. Each member will have those duties and obligations that they have freely taken on. Their compensation in the way of money, goods, services, or privileges as reward for these duties and obligations will be clearly defined and understood. Failure to perform will result in the loss of these rewards.

c. No one is owed anything simply by virtue of being a community member.

d. All members may freely contract with other members of the community for any goods or services, including the performance of the person's community obligations. The responsibility for performance remains that of the person who originally agreed to perform the community obligations.
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Old 12-22-2009, 01:51 PM   #3
Neo
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Default Re: Community Project

I have often thought about this and have come to at least a semi conclusion...

There can be no rules and no system, people can choose to co-operate with others or not. The moment you make another rigid system that everyone must conform to then you create the new world order all over again.

People have thought they have had the best concept for human living time and time again, but any system that does not include everyone and every concept is doomed to fail. We need no more systems!!!!!!!
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Old 12-22-2009, 01:54 PM   #4
Stardustaquarion
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Default Re: Community Project

Great Neo

I agree with you, I think that all comes to personal responsibility and love for self and others

All the other systems fail sooner or later

So basically, we need to grow within in order to have meaninfull interactions and only volunteer for what makes our heart sing

Love
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Old 12-22-2009, 02:09 PM   #5
Seashore
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Default Re: Community Project

Quote:
Originally Posted by asteram View Post

Some ideas to discuss:

Planned Community General Agreements (draft)

1. Each family or resident has their own space that they own free and clear. Once vested they cannot lose their space. There are no taxes to be paid or other obligations to be met to retain ownership of this space.

a. Space cannot be sold unless one is leaving the community.

b. Space may be traded with another if all neighbors (how close?) approve.

c. Space may only be sold to someone from outside with the approval of all members of the community.

Q: How does one "buy in" or become vested?

Q: Under what circumstances could a member lose their membership in the community?
Is this along the lines of what in the United States is called legally a "cooperative" set up?
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Old 12-22-2009, 03:04 PM   #6
Stardustaquarion
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Default Re: Community Project

Yeah, I do think cooperatives work amongst likeminded people and friends, we have one food cooperative were we live and they are very good, prices are reasonable and the sell local produce in preference rather than branded goods. They also buy bulk and fraction themselves, etc

The key is that one must like what one does otherwise it will fall appart sooner of later

Cheers
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Old 12-22-2009, 04:25 PM   #7
Kre8ive Lady
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Default Re: Community Project

We, (my family and I), have spent nearly two years on the road in an RV full-time visiting many of the “Intentional Communities” across the country. We visited dozens of the communities that were listed on the ic.org website, in many different states. Generally speaking, what we found was that most of the written profiles and what the various communities were really like were two completely different things.

Nearly all of them have a few things in common:

No matter what “rule(s)” were written and agreed to were enforced unfairly and inconsistently.

No matter what type of legal land ownership was in place, (and there are many), no matter whether they had a community income producing mechanism and the income produced was shared by the community, or individual earnings that were kept entirely separate, there was still a lot of disagreement and constant hard feelings over money, and over land ownership.

No matter what list of “rules” were written and agreed to, someone always found a way to misuse it to their advantage and someone else’s advantage.

No matter what financial structure was put in place, it always came down to; whoever had the most money “wins.”

There was, in every case that we came across, one or more people, (usually the “founder”), who was on a power trip and turned into a “mini Hitler”, acting as dictator over the other members.

I could write a VERY long list here, but I hope you all get the idea.

The truly interesting thing is that completely by accident, (or was it?) during our travels, we came upon a “community” that was not listed in any directory we could find. It was made up entirely of “full-timers”. These people, even though they did not belong to any specific “community” embodied what the word “community” means. Whenever someone went to the store, if something happened to be on sale, they bought an extra one or two and freely gave it to whoever needed it the most. If someone was going to make a trash run, they offered to take others trash as well as their own. If someone was sick, others jumped in to make meals, share herbal remedies or whatever else was needed. All of this was done without any “rules”. They did it because it was the right thing to do, not because some authority figure told them they “had to.”

This community was such a joy to be part of! It was made up of people who were tolerant of differing beliefs, differing backgrounds and differing political opinions. Because the large majority of full-time Rvers are older, retired people, it was also a community of experts, people who had spent their entire lives working in one field or another. It was, in a way, like going to school. This was real, hands on learning, not a list of theories in a book. You see, these people LOVED to visit and freely share the knowledge that took them a lifetime to learn. Because these people (most of them) grew up in a different era than we did (referring to my age group), they were tolerant, respectful, helpful, and they had manners. For the most part they were not greedy brats trying to take advantage of each other or spending their time trying to figure out a way to take advantage of others or trying to work out a way to bend the rules.

Unfortunately, this community existed on government land and people were only allowed to park there for so many months out of the year. Yet, most of them continue to go there for those “allowed” months every year. If it were in a more permanent location, we would still be there!

The way things are going, and with many of the changes already taking place, privately owned land is becoming a thing of the past. Government is finding more and more ways to take over privately owned property. They are stealing water rights. They are taking private land away only to give it to someone else to make a buck.

Our family has learned a lot about what makes a community work and what makes it fail. I realize that we are not experts by any stretch of the imagination, but we have learned a few things that we would be glad to share with any who are interested. I am not saying that we have all the answers, far from it. But perhaps if many of us put our heads together and if we all shared with each other what we have learned, maybe, just maybe, together we could create something that could work for all of us?
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Old 12-22-2009, 06:07 PM   #8
sjkted
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Default Re: Community Project

Kre8ive Lady: Thanks for the post! I've seen the same with each co-op having a "mini-Hitler".

Do you think this would be solved by not having one single member who had any more of a controlling interest in the land than any other?

On the flip side, there are two trends I see that could completely change the power dynamic between everyone in the community. One is the impending financial implosion and the other is the 2010 food crisis.

http://www.infowars.com/2010-food-crisis-means-financial-armageddon/

http://www.thetreeofliberty.com/vb/showthread.php?t=87117&highlight=2010+Food+Crisis


Not that I would wish hard times upon anyone, but I wonder if money had no value and if food was slightly more scarce if people would come together.

--sjkted
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Old 12-22-2009, 06:28 PM   #9
sjkted
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Default Re: Community Project

My idea for how communities could operate in an economic sense is that each community would have 25-50 members. Each of the adult members would have some type of lead position (i.e. construction, medical, mechanic, gardener, etc.) which would be self-appointed. The community would produce its own food and be self-sufficient with energy and water. Members would provide basically unlimited services to each other without need for immediate payment or reciprocation.

The community would have reciprocal agreements with other local communities (i.e. we trade 1/3 of our wheat harvest for 1/3 of your milk production or we trade 20 hours of our member's labor each month for 20 hours of your member's labor). Other outside goods/services that could not be bartered could use gold or silver or the like as a currency.

One reason why we don't see this happening right now is that this is not quite as efficient as using money. In many ways, it would be harder to make this work, but IMO it would be much more effective in serving each member's needs. I think that if the money issue was out of the picture the dictators in each group would settle down, as there wouldn't be any incentive to "game" the system or take advantage of others.
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Old 12-22-2009, 06:34 PM   #10
Peace of mind
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Default Re: Community Project

Sounds similar to a system we already have in place. Once the community grows, corruption will seep in thru the cracks.

You say the community decides who gets in, but how is the community started and who will put who in charge? Judgmental mentalities is a big reason why we are in the situations we’re in today.

IMO, there should be free range for all. It’s a fact that when systems are set up to exclude others they often fail. Fear creates borders, borders creates imprisonment of the body and mind. Don’t put images of despair into your intentions; such communities are designed out of anxiety…not peace and awareness.

Life here is an expansion of the experience, be free to roam and express. If the world is going to change into a spiritual paradise, than there’s no need for separation. Everyone will just play their part.

I don’t think we will be in the same frame of mind when/if this time comes. I imagine a way of life where everyone is respectful, benevolent, trustworthy and accountable.

Any ideas resembling what we have now is like rebuilding of the old, and it will be just a matter of time before it gets out of hand again. We are all one living being and alienating is to neglect…and when you neglect you will have sickness like wars, strife, and a hard and sad life. self inflicting wounds I shall say. We don’t want this again….well not me anyway……

I’m not worried about establishing communities in the future. Live in the now and the universe will work everything out.

Peace
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Old 12-22-2009, 06:55 PM   #11
Ammit
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Default Re: Community Project

I agree with a few statements above especially the no rules system, if we are getting out of one then why the hell start another.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sjkted View Post
My idea for how communities could operate in an economic sense is that each community would have 25-50 members. Each of the adult members would have some type of lead position (i.e. construction, medical, mechanic, gardener, etc.) which would be self-appointed. The community would produce its own food and be self-sufficient with energy and water. Members would provide basically unlimited services to each other without need for immediate payment or reciprocation.

The community would have reciprocal agreements with other local communities (i.e. we trade 1/3 of our wheat harvest for 1/3 of your milk production or we trade 20 hours of our member's labor each month for 20 hours of your member's labor). Other outside goods/services that could not be bartered could use gold or silver or the like as a currency.

One reason why we don't see this happening right now is that this is not quite as efficient as using money. In many ways, it would be harder to make this work, but IMO it would be much more effective in serving each member's needs. I think that if the money issue was out of the picture the dictators in each group would settle down, as there wouldn't be any incentive to "game" the system or take advantage of others.
Lovely idea and may work easier then you might think, my neibours and I have exchanged garden produce and some services for years without any bartering or expected payback. One neibour was going to pay silly money to have their car repaired, cost was cut with my free labour, some months after this my satelite dish got moved by a football, within 2 hours it was realigned without me walking out the house or climbing a ladder.

I have supplied eggs ( duck and chicken ), potatoes, tomatoes, pakchoy, cabage and sometimes even meat ( either my own birds or a handout from a friend farmer of pheasant, and they return of their own free will cucumbers, lettuce, raddish, marrow, squash blah blah blah. You see where I am going here, it does and will happen naturally as long as people wish too.

We just need to forget where we are at the moment and start a new.
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Old 12-22-2009, 08:52 PM   #12
housemouse2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sjkted View Post
Hello All,

When I first bumped into Project Camelot a few years ago, I was inspired by George Green's concept of the groundcrew and communities. It seems like a community is the model that will ultimately work today and well into the future. With all of the research I've done, I feel we are reaching an ending point: our current structures are crumbling including government, industrial food, transportation systems, environment, monetary, moral/ethical standards. There is no doubt in my mind that these are all completely unsustainable -- the big question is when they will fall apart and by what will they be replaced?

I've set about to research Intentional Communities or Self Organized Communities and have been a little disappointed by what I have seen. The majority of communities I have found are for followers of a specific religious path. Many of the others are basically real estate deals to buy a parcel of land with the opportunity to build your own home and join a Home Owner's Association with a eco-friendly bent.

I have nothing ill to say about either of these paths, but I have found that neither is right for me and I am unconvinced that these models are the solution to the above issues, although they are a big improvement over the concrete empire that many of us loosely call home.

I'm writing a blog on the major issues regarding the creation of a community and how a tribe of people can be as self sufficient as possible and live off the land with minimal dollar/money cost. In order for these solutions to work, they must be renewable, good to the environment, and relatively inexpensive and easy to use. There are many survival guides on topics such as surviving in the woods or surviving a nuclear catastrophe, but none of them seem to detail how to survive the long-term destruction of our civilization. It has been said that no man is an island unto himself. Just as it is nearly impossible to survive by oneself in a system dominated by money, it will be almost impossible to make it in the future alone. Any topics discussed must be applicable to groups who can split up tasks and create new ways of organization never before seen.

Here are the main topics on the list:

1. Sanitation / Hygiene
2. Water
3. Communication
4. Living / Shelter
5. Security/Protection
6. Health/Medical/Healing
7. Transporation
8. Food / Cooking
9. Energy

Following these are a discussion on topics such as financing, legal issues, property ownership, rules, community organization, etc.

The goal is to produce some sort of a "business plan" on how a small number of individuals can take ownership of a land and create a community and sustainable economies with other local communities. It need not be a rigid plan, but it should be able to guide urbanites to switching over their lifestyle without making too many mistakes.

I am proposing that I post these topics and my research here on Avalon first and then after receiving comment from other members and input who have topic experience and expertise on other methods. Once this is done, I'll post in an edited (condensed) form on the blog.

I'm writing here not as an expert who has been there, done that but as a researcher who is very interested in creating a model that people could use to transition from the corporate world into a community/nature world.

I would appreciate your comments and ideas here.

-- sjkted
all the answers to your question can be found in the past. The world didn't get this way on it's own. What we are in is the last stages of a failed economic experiment started in 1950. The economy we grew up with is not the economy that was originally here.

after ww2 a linear economy system based on consumption was established. Prior to this economic model the economy was based on recycling and using few resources.

If you go back prior to ww2 you will find exactly how they did it. Material was more expensive, so was labor. however, money was sound and inflation non existent.

to get back to that model we need to change a few fundamental ideals:

fractional banking, credit cards, federal reserve all need to end.
minum wage needs to end
government needs to get out of private industry
anti-monopoly laws need to be placed back in.

how to start:

you cannot due this all be yourself but there is a number of things you can do to start the ball rolling.

first stop wasting money on convenience foods, things you don't need.
I suggest you get some old books that tell how things were done before the 1950's. Cooking, gardening, ect.

it is legal to make your own community money, backed by gold in a community bank. As long as the money doesn't look like federal reserve notes and you don't mint coins.

Get your community accustomed to a community owned bank, with gold stock, print own money. This is a key part.

set up an exchange for the federal reserve note to community money as well.

utilities:

depending on area, you will have to address water, sewage, electric. Those are all easily fixed.

Taxes: this is tricky. Unless you can get your community declared a sovereign entity and no subject to taxes, like an Indian reservation or religious compound you are screwed on taxes.

To be more self sufficient you simply need land to farm or product to produce to sell. Everyone in rural communities used to have their own farms. Small family farms to have food.

Electricity is only been around 100 years. Solar panels are good and so is non electrical units...like oil lamps.

It doesn't matter how off the grid you house is...without reestablishing sound money and a recyclable economy you won't get that new community. You must start with a community bank, gold stock and community cash.
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Old 12-22-2009, 08:55 PM   #13
Kre8ive Lady
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sjkted, I honestly do not know the best way to get around the issue of “land ownership” being perceived by the owner(s) as being MINE, from their perspective. No matter how you slice it, referring to land ownership, it is still working with the current paradigm. In other words, it must come from an entirely new point of view, rather than trying to rework the system that already exists. Personally, I think one of the reasons the community I mentioned worked so well and so harmoniously was the fact that no one staying there perceived that they “owned” the land.

I do agree with you sjkted that the impending financial implosion and food crisis will play a very large part in people being put in the position of completely rethinking their current perspective on a lot of things. In my personal opinion, many will have to rethink their entire perspective on reality, our current social structure, and way of life. If, or should I say when, these things happen, people will have no choice but to come together and learn to work out their differences in order to survive.

If everyone freely shared the knowledge they had with everyone willing to learn, a community could be self-sufficient in all the ways you mentioned. If money had no value, then knowledge, physical ability, and time would be seen quite differently than they are now. That is where the true value lies!

You made some really great points regarding trading and bartering. Ammit made some great points also regarding freely giving what was needed. A site pertaining to this that I just recently came across is http://www.timebanks.org I would love to get your feedback (sjkted and Ammit) on this site and in what ways you think this might be helpful in a community setting.

I love Ammits post! And, yours too Neo! You made some great points and gave several really good examples of how this could work! I especially agree with your statement, “If we are getting out of one [system] then why the hell start another?” The best “system” I have seen so far, is one in which people share freely because it is in their own best interests to do so. The hard part for some people is, like you said Ammit, is forgetting where we are at the moment, and starting anew. You mentioned freely sharing with your neighbors, not expecting anything specific in return. And, that is a perfect example of what I am saying here.

Thank you, sjkted, Neo, and Ammit! I really appreciate your input on this thread. You all have some really great ideas!
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Old 12-22-2009, 10:11 PM   #14
Ammit
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Quote:
Originally Posted by housemouse2 View Post
all the answers to your question can be found in the past. The world didn't get this way on it's own. What we are in is the last stages of a failed economic experiment started in 1950. The economy we grew up with is not the economy that was originally here.

Probably because there was no economy.
after ww2 a linear economy system based on consumption was established. Prior to this economic model the economy was based on recycling and using few resources.

And queing up for rations with a little book of stamps, nah not again i hope.

If you go back prior to ww2 you will find exactly how they did it. Material was more expensive, so was labor. however, money was sound and inflation non existent.

Wood for housing, animals and crops for food, learning how to save and aquire seeds, so on and so forth.
to get back to that model we need to change a few fundamental ideals:

No, we need to change a lot of ideas and the system.
fractional banking, credit cards, federal reserve all need to end.
minum wage needs to end
government needs to get out of private industry
anti-monopoly laws need to be placed back in.

Exactly, there would be no need for a currency, would there?

how to start:

you cannot due this all be yourself but there is a number of things you can do to start the ball rolling.

first stop wasting money on convenience foods, things you don't need.
I suggest you get some old books that tell how things were done before the 1950's. Cooking, gardening, ect.

it is legal to make your own community money, backed by gold in a community bank. As long as the money doesn't look like federal reserve notes and you don't mint coins.

Get your community accustomed to a community owned bank, with gold stock, print own money. This is a key part.

set up an exchange for the federal reserve note to community money as well.

And the cycle begins again....

utilities:

depending on area, you will have to address water, sewage, electric. Those are all easily fixed.

Water and sewage yes, electricty!!, why?

Taxes: this is tricky. Unless you can get your community declared a sovereign entity and no subject to taxes, like an Indian reservation or religious compound you are screwed on taxes.

Would you need to pay taxes once everything was crashed?

To be more self sufficient you simply need land to farm or product to produce to sell. Everyone in rural communities used to have their own farms. Small family farms to have food.

Yes they did, in the realms of what we have now, why go back to the days of the sheriff of Notingham and start paying taxes again?
Electricity is only been around 100 years. Solar panels are good and so is non electrical units...like oil lamps.

So, prior to a hundred years ago we did without it, um, so why not again? you can make lamp oil from animal fats and such, unless you need a laptop to talk to people who no longer have electric to run one themselves?

It doesn't matter how off the grid you house is...without reestablishing sound money and a recyclable economy you won't get that new community. You must start with a community bank, gold stock and community cash.
If you need to start a community bank then we just as well stay where we are, the cycle will restart , without a doubt

Ammit
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Old 12-22-2009, 11:55 PM   #15
sjkted
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housemouse2: I appreciate your post and I understand where you're coming from, but our entire model post-WWII is set up around a system of false scarcity. It's also based around having a small minority of people control the majority of resources. The problem we are having right now is that the entire model has failed. It failed about 2 years ago when we started the first round of bailouts.

Fractional reserve banking is a ponzi scheme. Just look around at the wages vs. standard of living now vs. post WWII. They have been declining for about 15 years. I could go on in detail about this, but there are better references elsewhere.

The solution for me is not to go back to where we were and try to re-create the hell we have right now, but to go back to where we were and create a system based on abundance and compassion. IMO, the only way to do this is by distributing a form of free energy which already does exist and has existed for a long time, but has been heavily suppressed because it is totally diametrically opposed to a free-market capitalist system.
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Old 12-23-2009, 12:00 AM   #16
sjkted
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Default Re: Community Project

Kre8ive Lady: I've seen this system before with Ithaca Hours (http://www.ithacahours.com/). Correct me if I'm wrong, but these look almost the same to me.

I like this system because it invests in the community, brings local people closer together, and it brings everyone back to the concept of sound money. Overall, I don't think it's the final answer, but it's a pretty good solution until we get there.

--sjkted
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Old 12-23-2009, 12:14 AM   #17
sjkted
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Peace of Mind said:
You say the community decides who gets in, but how is the community started and who will put who in charge? Judgmental mentalities is a big reason why we are in the situations we’re in today.

-----------

I agree with this in part. I think if our predominant system of organization was decentralized/community structures that there would be much less of this type of judgmental issues. Right now, one thing that I think really sucks about our culture is how easy it is to get stuck in one position in life. This stuckness affects our personal growth and just contributes to people being downright unhappy about life.

For example, buying a house and taking on a mortgage, having children, getting a job, etc. are all great things in a sense but in another they tie you to one thing in life often without an exit option.

My idea is that if there were a bunch of communities that one could freely move in between them. There may be an application process, but it would be more on the lines of matching energy and vibrations rather than the "in" group deciding whether the new group makes the cut.

I think the whole judgmental mentalities is also rooted in our perceived lack of abundance. If we had this setup, everyone would know that regardless of what they did in life, they would always have a place to sleep and food to eat. I also think that a genuine community ownership model would really take out the incentive for some people to take advantage of others.

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Old 12-23-2009, 12:17 AM   #18
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Another thing is that if this type of a model was set up, would there be any need for any type of taxes? IMO, all government does is take resources (money) from one group of people and give it to another. There are people who genuinely need welfare and public services, but if there was a community economic model that accommodated people in need, would we still need the government?

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Old 12-24-2009, 05:29 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by Kre8ive Lady View Post
sjkted, I honestly do not know the best way to get around the issue of “land ownership” being perceived by the owner(s) as being MINE, from their perspective. No matter how you slice it, referring to land ownership, it is still working with the current paradigm.
I think land ownership is the key issue for all of society not just intentional communities. I always think that there must be some way to completely opt out of the system and live without the need to participate in the money game- but no matter how I slice it, it always comes back to land ownership.

If you think you own your property try not paying your taxes- see what happens. Essentially you are just leasing it.

How does one live if they do not want to contribute to the current system at all? Is there any place on the planet that has land set aside for this purpose?

What about Indian reservations? These places are decimated by poverty, but they are sovereign territories (although the federal government has strings attached). Some reservations might welcome new ideas and just maybe new people.

What if some like minded people went over to the Indian reservations scattered about and said "hey we would like to live with you and build communities within the boundaries of your reservation...

many of us have knowledge of sustainable systems and modern permaculture techniques. We want to live close to the earth. We would like to learn the ways of your people and we would like to share our new knowledge and skills with your youngsters...

some of us are lawyers and we would like to assist you in your efforts to lessen infringement on your territories by the federal government...

some of us are healers and would like to share our love and medicine with your people."

The Hopi and other tribes have been fighting a losing battle against the federal government because of mining interests. Their lands are constantly being chipped away and their traditions and languages undermined by the government. Their children are forced to attend public schools where they are not allowed to sing the songs of their ancestors- robbing them of their own heritage. Casinos have become a new form of gold fever for the newer generations of the tribe... it's all part of the Fed's plan of assimilation.

Is there a way to be adopted by a tribe? I'm totally serious about this.

If thousands of people lived on the Indian reservations it would not be an easy task for the Fed to push these people around. If people flocked to these places in numbers the Fed would not have the man power to deal with it.

I believe that we are at the right moment for this... people are waking up en-masse. Large numbers of people looking for a place to live and to form communities. It just needs some organization and diplomacy with the tribal elders.

These tribes need our help people- and I'm not talking about donating a used computer to their cause. They need us. The effort has to come from outside the system because the government just keeps screwing them. If we do nothing we will lose the only sovereign territories left on the planet and entire cultures will be assimilated into the system- this is already happening but it's not too late. Yet.

look here: http://www.shundahai.org/bigmtbackground.html

http://cheyennefreedom.wordpress.com


On another note- there is also something called an agricultural land trust. From what I understand you can designate your land for agricultural purposes. Basically you would be giving up private ownership of it but in the trust you can give members the right to live on the land forever. They can even hand it down to family members as long as they are like minded and actually live on the land and contribute to the community. I don't know much about it- has anyone heard of it?

Last edited by shiftmonkey; 12-24-2009 at 09:34 PM.
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Old 12-24-2009, 08:46 AM   #20
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Shiftmonkey: I think part of the solution is going to involve working with the native tribes, but I'm not sure how. I agree they could use some skills from the outside.

FWIW, I've visited a few tribes in California and Arizona. From what I can tell, many of these tribes don't want any contact with us. It's hard to imagine what they've gone through -- first from having their land stolen and being relocated, then having their children kidnapped and educated by the Christian's in the white man's ways, and then to the controls placed on them by the Federal Government.

I wonder how many Native Americans would be interested in participating in this movement.

-- sjkted
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Old 12-24-2009, 10:42 AM   #21
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Shiftmonkey: From what I can tell, many of these tribes don't want any contact with us. It's hard to imagine what they've gone through -- first from having their land stolen and being relocated, then having their children kidnapped and educated by the Christian's in the white man's ways, and then to the controls placed on them by the Federal Government.

I wonder how many Native Americans would be interested in participating in this movement.
This is an idea I would be very interested in Shiftmonkey, but my concerns are similar to sjkted and I can understand why the tribes would have their reservations I'd like to live with Native Americans so I can get away from the ways of the white man too ...

Just as Kre8tive Lady brought up every community has their little Hitler, or control freak who wants to run the show and it just seems like we can be real difficult to live with. There are always inherent problems and bad behaviors that seem to pop their ugly heads up. To get the tribal elders to agree would be difficult I'm sure, but if they had some kind of control over who was allowed residence on tribal lands maybe it would make a difference. Take for instance setting up guidelines for living in harmony with nature and the Spirit, people who are willing to spend a predetermined amount of time with the each of the elders to determine whether they are the right fit. Only spiritually fit, or balanced people would be permitted membership, based on their criteria.

Anyone who doesn't live by the Golden Rule, shouldn't be considered. The world would be a much better place and most problems would be eliminated if we were more thoughtful, considerate and compassionate towards others. It's easy, all you have to do is ask yourself how you would feel if you were in the other persons shoes and that will always give you a good barometer on how to conduct yourself with others in just about any situation.

Since my plans are to leave LA in January, I would be willing to pursue this idea further. Ever since I made my decision to leave LA two months ago, for some reason I've been heavily drawn to the four corners region, as well as a desire to learn more about the ways of Hopi tribe. So this post got my attention. If either or both of you would like to talk more, PM me and we'll take it from there.

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Old 12-24-2009, 05:16 PM   #22
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I too have wondered what is the best way to opt out of the current system altogether. During our travels, we visited many of the Indian Reservations personally, including the Hopi in the Four Corners Region. Like sjkted mentioned, most of them want NOTHING to do with anyone if they are white. They really do not care who you are, why you are there, or what your spiritual beliefs are. After all the horrors they have been through, I really cannot say I blame them one bit!

We spoke with many people living on the various reservations, only to find that the majority of the people were not happy with their own group of Elders or how they were running things. They also had a strong dislike for the “feds” (their word choice, not mind), who had infiltrated their leadership.

The way things are being run right now, on most of the Reservations I have been to, is far from the “Golden Rule.” Just like in our current government, it is all about who is the best at “milking the system”, or who is the most manipulative, or controlling. Sad, but true.

What saddens me the most about the current Native American situation is the loss of their culture, including their individual languages and customs. The worst part is, when speaking with them, is that they do not seem to have any interest in reviving these things.

I would love to find a way to help rebuild what has been nearly destroyed. Like the Phoenix rising from the ashes.

If you would like to research US Indian Reservations further, a map of them can be found here:

http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/unite...icanindian.jpg

As for the Four Corners Region, the link below has me questioning the safety of this area. Go to:

http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/map_s...#united_states

After clicking on the above link, scroll down and click on United States - Department of National Security Facilities (Monthly Review) This will bring up a map of those facilities. Now right click on the map, click on Save As, now instead of saving that picture look carefully at the file name THEY chose to give this picture! Does this raise any red flags for anyone? It does for me.

As far as a Land Trust goes, the majority (not all) of the current Intentional Communities use this method of land ownership. If the original group has a good plan of action put together that ALL of them agree on, a well-thought out list of By-Laws, and good leadership to start with, for some people this does seem to work. However, from what I have seen, it more often than not becomes a HUGE problem for everyone involved. Just like with what is going on in our current system, it is misused, abused and taken advantage of to the detriment of most of the people involved. This would take much too long to explain here.

When it comes down to the reality of making a Land Trusts work, there is a lot involved in it than most people realize. You could invest years of your life building something, hundreds of thousands of dollars, not to mention the mental and emotional investment, only to lose it all literally overnight. I have seen it happen.

There MUST be other options that we are not looking at, or are not yet aware of.

I look forward to your input.
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Old 12-24-2009, 05:38 PM   #23
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Kre8ive Lady said,"
There MUST be other options that we are not looking at, or are not yet aware of.

I look forward to your input."


We could just start our own nation on the high seas. The can't tax or control us, if we're in international waters, matey.

Before you laugh, take a look at Sealand.

http://www.sealandgov.org/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principality_of_Sealand

With this option we could kill two birds with one stone. One, we could all survive the pole shift. Two, we could have a sovereign nation.

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Old 12-24-2009, 06:04 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by sjkted View Post
Kre8ive Lady:

Do you think this would be solved by not having one single member who had any more of a controlling interest in the land than any other?

Not that I would wish hard times upon anyone, but I wonder if money had no value and if food was slightly more scarce if people would come together.

--sjkted
I think the only way to avoid the "Mini Hitler" situation is to make it against the rules of the community. If someone is storing too many resources or is power grabbing, the person would be considered for reprimand. We now know what can happen when power grows to monstrous proportions. Its a lesson well learned and, if we are ready, will carry us into the new paradigm.

The second point is more involved but it also ties in. When there is plenty then the community will fight, when there is scarcity then the community comes together. This is a remnant of the reptillian part of the brain. If there is any such thing as a viable community we are going to have to abandon this way of thinking. Think in terms of a higher purpose.

I just think it will take a major shift in the way people think. I'm not sure we are ready for that, but I could be wrong.

Also, I think everyone should have their own free energy.

I wouldnt be opposed to a Counsel of Elders but not a Government.
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Old 12-24-2009, 06:20 PM   #25
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There was a special on National Geographics about future cities on the seas...









now if I can just get rid of the aquaphobia...

--
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