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Old 12-24-2009, 07:55 PM   #26
mkspllmn
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Peace[/QUOTE]

I definitely want that house!
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Old 12-24-2009, 09:12 PM   #27
Kre8ive Lady
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Kre8ive Lady said,"
There MUST be other options that we are not looking at, or are not yet aware of.

I look forward to your input."


We could just start our own nation on the high seas. The can't tax or control us, if we're in international waters, matey.

Before you laugh, take a look at Sealand.

http://www.sealandgov.org/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principality_of_Sealand

With this option we could kill two birds with one stone. One, we could all survive the pole shift. Two, we could have a sovereign nation.

--sjkted
Wow sjkted! It is so strange that you would mention this. It is the third time in less than a week that something similar has been brought to my attention.

The first time was when a friend mentioned that his plan for when tshtf is building his own boat. He says it is self-righting, unsinkable, and has enough room for his entire family to live quite comfortably for a long time. He has been working on it for quite some time and says it is nearly finished.

The second time was when we had some friends over. Their son, (age 12, intelligent and creative beyond description), mentioned that he had been researching different areas of the world where he could build his own island. He had the entire thing planned out, taking all the various scientific facts into consideration. Way over my head! LOL

And, now you bring these links to my attention. I don’t know if it sounds a bit far-fetched, but I can’t help wondering if Universe is trying to tell me something?!
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Old 12-24-2009, 09:36 PM   #28
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a few of these minisubs might come in handy...



customized subz might become a hot item one day...

Peace
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Old 12-24-2009, 10:36 PM   #29
sjkted
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FYI: I noticed Miriam Delicado just posted to another topic on Avalon. I sent her a PM to see if she will post here and share her experiences in working with some of the native Americans. I'm curious to see how she broke through that barrier we discussed earlier.

--sjkted
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Old 12-24-2009, 10:47 PM   #30
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To get the tribal elders to agree would be difficult I'm sure, but if they had some kind of control over who was allowed residence on tribal lands maybe it would make a difference.
It's totally reasonable for tribes to not want anything to do with the white man... but the bottom line is that their knowledge and wisdom is dying along with their culture. Would they rather do nothing and completely die out? Whoever chooses to discriminate based on skin color really needs to get beyond that one... it's wrong no matter which side of the line you stand on. We are all "red" on the inside.

I believe that the elders who have not yet been corrupted would recognize an honest effort from the heart if it were brought forward with respect.

Perhaps a settlement could start off in a very small area- possibly even on land near the reservation as a starting place- sort of like a holding area that the elders would be invited to visit- to evaluate progress, communicate with members and share ideas. The occupants of the settlement would not have any other contact with the tribe unless invited to.

However, it would be important to find out which of the tribal leaders are in tune with the old wisdom.

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If either or both of you would like to talk more, PM me and we'll take it from there.
I can not PM because I have not graduated to senior status on Avalon and the PM feature has not been activated for my account. I will write to the moderators and ask to be upgraded. Until then feel free to email me at: shift[at]shiftpages[dot]com

I posted this biotechture video in another thread but I am posting it again here because I think some of you might find it interesting: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ozX_nt5A4o
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Old 12-24-2009, 11:11 PM   #31
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As for the Four Corners Region, the link below has me questioning the safety of this area. Go to:

http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/map_s...#united_states

After clicking on the above link, scroll down and click on United States - Department of National Security Facilities (Monthly Review) This will bring up a map of those facilities. Now right click on the map, click on Save As, now instead of saving that picture look carefully at the file name THEY chose to give this picture! Does this raise any red flags for anyone? It does for me.
That is totally creepy- endgame. If you look at the map it gets even creepier. The FEMA facilities on the map are called DRO which stands for Detention and Removal Operations: http://www.monthlyreview.org/mrzine/Endgame.jpg

How can we deal with creepy things like that? I have a friend who has learned a great deal from the natives. He told me of a saying... I don't remember the exact words but it goes something like this: May my life be consecrated to the service of the people and to the land and may fear never guide my feet.
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Old 12-25-2009, 02:23 AM   #32
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I think community living will be EXTREMELY hard to hold together for long. Hippie communities in the 1960s didn't last for long. People will fight, freeload, try to control the ghe group. I went to my first groundcrew meeting and was shocked at how self-righteous these people were.
I like the idea of a town or city that allows me to befriend some people and be "strangers" with others. But this is unlikely to eventuate as building streets, plumbing, electricity production, etc. is too expensive.
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Old 12-25-2009, 07:44 AM   #33
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I think community living will be EXTREMELY hard to hold together for long. Hippie communities in the 1960s didn't last for long. People will fight, freeload, try to control the ghe group. I went to my first groundcrew meeting and was shocked at how self-righteous these people were.
I like the idea of a town or city that allows me to befriend some people and be "strangers" with others. But this is unlikely to eventuate as building streets, plumbing, electricity production, etc. is too expensive.
I think the current system will be EXTREMELY hard to keep together for long. I'm not normally a betting-type person, but I'd be willing to wager that our entire currency will be going belly up in the next few years. The only problem is that betting in US dollars would have no value.

Yes, the hippies did try this. For them, it was an interesting experiment. If it didn't work, they could always go home. For us, it could very well be a matter of survival and also the continuance of civil - ization. For us, we may never make it back to Kansas after the larger pillars start falling.

The old model of building streets, plumbing, and electricity is based on centralization. The community model is de-centralized. Since each community is an autonomous unit, a sovereign nation onto itself, there is no need for a grid to hold all of them together.

--sjkted
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Old 12-26-2009, 04:01 AM   #34
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Interesting so far. Although the "suggested community agreement" that I posted for discussion was dismissed immediately, just about every well-thought-out post on this thread has been about one or another item on that agreement.

Speaking for myself, I have no problem with guidelines that I agree to, and I'm not too sure that I want to try starting a community with someone who is unwilling to commit to any agreements.

Lets look at the "little hitler" thing:

a. No psychopaths allowed. No one with a desire for power or control over others may ever be in a position of authority.

Any objections?

Here's another area of concern:

a. Coercion is not allowed or tolerated, nor is freeloading or taking advantage of others.

Workable or not? Who votes for allowing coercion and freeloading as their right?

How about land ownership?

1. Each family or resident has their own space that they own free and clear. Once vested they cannot lose their space. There are no taxes to be paid or other obligations to be met to retain ownership of this space.

Community focus?

2. The community has a common economic focus, i.e. the goods/services produced for sale or trade are those that the members are interested in producing. (Example: The economic focus of this community will be decorative arts and crafts and growing flowers and ornamental plants.)

Are any of these ideas workable? Are they of any value?

This is not meant to be pie in the sky, nor is it meant to be something that must wait for the collapse of the economy, government, and civilization in order to begin or to succeed.

The idea is to discuss a setup that appeals to and is agreeable to those who agree to it. Not to everyone in the whole world. Not to be enforced on those who don't want to play. If there were fifty separate communities each with the agreements that appealed to them, could you find one that you might fit into or even be eager to be a part of?
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Old 12-26-2009, 06:28 AM   #35
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asteram: I think these are all great guidelines. The point is the the golden rule -- i.e. he who has the gold makes the rules. In other words, the mini-Hitler's are normally the one who has greater ownership over the land and resources. It's one thing to have a community agreement, but can the members who have not put up a significant amount of money oust the one member who has due to bad behavior. In most cases, I would say it would be difficult to do.

The other point is that rules constrain both the people enforcing the rules as well as those who must live by them.

For example, you say taking advantage of others is not allowed. Let's say the community's economic focus was to produce food for sale and there was a rift between members who wanted to produce food for consumption and others who wanted to produce food for sale. The members who wanted food for consumption would feel that the food-traders were trying to take advantage of their labor and not producing enough food for them. Likewise, the members who wanted food for sale would feel that the food-consumers were taking advantage of their financial investment and not allowing them to produce a return on investment.

It's a silly example, but the point is that rules are not always cut and dry and there is often a gray area. In our society, the members who felt the most deprived would end up hiring a lawyer, or contacting their local politician or congressman to change the laws. That's the last thing we need in a community.

It's a question of how to change this type of power dynamic. My view is that both of these are based on an idea of scarcity and the solution would be to create more abundance -- i.e. more food for both consumption and for sale, but in reality this may not always be possible. So, what's left? How do differences get decided? I'm afraid for the communities that have a mini-Hitler, despite all of their neat and clean rules, he's probably the one calling the final decisions.

--sjkted
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Old 12-26-2009, 02:49 PM   #36
Kre8ive Lady
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Interesting so far. Although the "suggested community agreement" that I posted for discussion was dismissed immediately, just about every well-thought-out post on this thread has been about one or another item on that agreement.

If, as you say, nearly every well thought-out post on this thread has been about an item of your proposed agreement, then how can you say it was dismissed?

Speaking for myself, I have no problem with guidelines that I agree to, and I'm not too sure that I want to try starting a community with someone who is unwilling to commit to any agreements.

Did I miss the post where someone invited you to a community in which NO ONE was willing to commit to ANY agreements?

Lets look at the "little hitler" thing:

a. No psychopaths allowed. No one with a desire for power or control over others may ever be in a position of authority.

How do you propose weeding them out before it becomes a problem? How will it be enforced? Who will enforce it?

It is often the power itself that brings out the worst in some people. A valuable lesson to be learned from many “stories”, Lord of the Rings comes to mind.


Any objections?

Here's another area of concern:

a. Coercion is not allowed or tolerated, nor is freeloading or taking advantage of others.

Once again, how do you propose weeding out these “trouble Makers” before it becomes a problem? How will it be enforced? Who will enforce it?

Workable or not? Who votes for allowing coercion and freeloading as their right?

Do you honestly believe that other communities, (that have these problems) actually voted in favor of allowing freeloading and taking advantage of others?

How about land ownership?

1. Each family or resident has their own space that they own free and clear. Once vested they cannot lose their space. There are no taxes to be paid or other obligations to be met to retain ownership of this space.

Try not paying your taxes and see just how long the government allows you to keep that land. When you say “no other obligations to be met”, will you please clarify what you mean by this?

What happens when someone in the community decides that it is just not working for them, and they want to move on? Are they “allowed” to sell their piece of land and all of the improvements on it to anyone they choose? If not, what kind of “approval process” will be put in place to determine who the “new people” are that will become part of the community? How will that process affect someone who wants to move on? To what extent will they get back all that they invested? What about new members? What “visitor process” will be implemented? How will it be enforced? Who will enforce it? Where will the visitors stay while you determine whether or not you “approve” of them? How will they earn a living? How long should the visiting process be?


Community focus?

2. The community has a common economic focus, i.e. the goods/services produced for sale or trade are those that the members are interested in producing. (Example: The economic focus of this community will be decorative arts and crafts and growing flowers and ornamental plants.)

To ask a clarifying question, do you mean that everyone involved in the community needs to agree upon one specific area of financial earnings? If everyone involved in the community has the same area of knowledge and interest, how will there be enough diversity for the community to be “self-sustaining”? Who gets the money earned from this common economic focus? How will it be distributed? Who will distribute it? How do you ensure it is fair? Would a single person with no children earn the same as a family with five children?

Are any of these ideas workable? Are they of any value?

Yes, you have some great ideas! To go along with those great ideas, a method of implementation is needed in order to make them work. Our constitution is also filled with great ideas. The reality of how that turned out is becoming more and more apparent even to those who have been “asleep.”

This is not meant to be pie in the sky, nor is it meant to be something that must wait for the collapse of the economy, government, and civilization in order to begin or to succeed.

I agree with you.

The idea is to discuss a setup that appeals to and is agreeable to those who agree to it. Not to everyone in the whole world. Not to be enforced on those who don't want to play. If there were fifty separate communities each with the agreements that appealed to them, could you find one that you might fit into or even be eager to be a part of?
Absolutely!

Sjkted made some very good points! And, the example he gave, even though he thinks it was a silly example, was a very good one. Those are exactly the types of problems that do arise that divide a community. And, if it divides the community, it no longer seems quite so silly.
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Old 12-28-2009, 04:31 AM   #37
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I wonder if the situation would be more favorable if we were all to just stake out some land in a South American country that supported the concept. Any takers?

--sjkted
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Old 01-04-2010, 05:28 AM   #38
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I wonder if the situation would be more favorable if we were all to just stake out some land in a South American country that supported the concept. Any takers?

--sjkted
Used to think the same thing, but lately I'm not to sure how safe I would feel down there and wouldn't be surprised to see war breaking out there once everything blows up and the PTB get their WWIII. Go to http://globalresearch.ca and read all the articles about military build up in the various countries in South America.

I'm taking a very serious look at Kauai, Hawaii. The cost of living there isn't as high as on Maui or Oahu, and you can get some decent places to live for less than here in Los Angeles. It's absolutely beautiful there and has a spiritual vibe like no where else I've been before. It's also about the closest thing you can get to moving out of the US, it has a foreign or international feel and you don't need a passport.

You can garden year round and if there are ever food shortages you can just go into the jungle and live on fruit and catch seafood. It's also"off the grid" so to speak.

Kauai is the most magical place I've ever been to and when I left it was with a tear in my eye promising myself to return, so maybe now is the time. There are intentional communities forming all over the islands...or if there is any one on PA who likes this idea and would like to join me on the islands please speak up or PM me
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Old 01-04-2010, 07:47 AM   #39
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Used to think the same thing, but lately I'm not to sure how safe I would feel down there and wouldn't be surprised to see war breaking out there once everything blows up and the PTB get their WWIII. Go to http://globalresearch.ca and read all the articles about military build up in the various countries in South America.

I'm taking a very serious look at Kauai, Hawaii. The cost of living there isn't as high as on Maui or Oahu, and you can get some decent places to live for less than here in Los Angeles. It's absolutely beautiful there and has a spiritual vibe like no where else I've been before. It's also about the closest thing you can get to moving out of the US, it has a foreign or international feel and you don't need a passport.

You can garden year round and if there are ever food shortages you can just go into the jungle and live on fruit and catch seafood. It's also"off the grid" so to speak.

Kauai is the most magical place I've ever been to and when I left it was with a tear in my eye promising myself to return, so maybe now is the time. There are intentional communities forming all over the islands...or if there is any one on PA who likes this idea and would like to join me on the islands please speak up or PM me
The way I see it is that South America has some benefits and some detractors. The benefits are that many of the people are already self-sustaining and may not be hit that hard by the economic crisis. If/when the economic collapse hits the fan, it might be much better to be in a small self-sufficient community in South American than here with the sheeple who may just end up losing their sanity en mass, which could logically be followed by implementation of fascism and civil unrest. I'm no big fan of any South American government, but I think in this respect they might be much better off than we are.

The detractors of course are the language barrier for those who don't speak fluent Spanish, our lack of citizenship, and the big question of whether the local government would respect our property rights and generally leave us alone.

I haven't felt too compelled by Hawaii for some reason. I've heard that the islands are heavily dependent on imports from the mainland for survival and that there truly aren't enough resources for everyone on the islands without substantial imports. I haven't researched this, so I'm not 100% sure this is correct information. Do you know if this is the case? Aside from that, I can't see any reason why it wouldn't be a great idea to move to Hawaii

--sjkted
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Old 01-04-2010, 09:07 AM   #40
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Unfortunately South America isn't the right destination for me since I'm a female who's alone, don't speak the language...

Yes the islands rely on imports, but I can take my electronics, computer and other necessities with me to the islands. Once I have a place to live I've learned to live fairly simply on a shoestring budget when necessary. As humans we really don't "need" a whole lot to survive...I've learned to live inexpensively so I'm not too concerned about that. I don't care where you live, there are ways of acquiring what we need inexpensively - you just have to be resourceful.

Even tho Hawaii depends on imports, the US mainland does too and I'm starting to see signs of inflation with price increases across the board. So, if you can grow your own food year round that helps, which you can do on the islands. If you get desperate, you can also find food in the jungle there...and the weather is good year round.

The whole idea of living a self sustained lifestyle is the goal here, part of which means not needing a whole lot of $$$ to survive because you're self sufficient.
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Old 01-04-2010, 09:31 AM   #41
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One thing that Kauai has going for it is that the islands have enormous spiritual energy. When I was there it impressed me as being the most spiritual place I've ever been too....the only other place I can compare it too would be the four corners region.

Kauai has a magical feel to it that I've never experienced anywhere else I've been, living with that kind of energy is ultimately what I'm seeking out. I've been all over the US, traveled down the West coast of Mexico to Acapulco and also into Canada to Toronto, Ottawa and Vancouver. No place felt as magical as Kauai....

With magic in our lives nothing is impossible, and that is where I want to be in a place that connects with our inner magic....when times get tough we will to be in a place where we can access easily our inner magic, our higher power. So we can manifest that which we need for our survival and to ascend.
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Old 01-04-2010, 09:02 PM   #42
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Kauai has a magical feel to it that I've never experienced anywhere else I've been, living with that kind of energy is ultimately what I'm seeking out. I've been all over the US, traveled down the West coast of Mexico to Acapulco and also into Canada to Toronto, Ottawa and Vancouver. No place felt as magical as Kauai....

With magic in our lives nothing is impossible, and that is where I want to be in a place that connects with our inner magic....when times get tough we will to be in a place where we can access easily our inner magic, our higher power. So we can manifest that which we need for our survival and to ascend.
I tend to agree with the "magic" of a place being important.

How do you feel about the volcanic aspect of Hawaii? Do you think the concern is more economic than one of earth changes? I've considered Hawaii but I've never been there. Kauai sounds nice.

I've been considering various locations over the past few years and I haven't figured out a place that has all the right pieces. At the moment I live in a mountain area with a pretty magical vibe- but the climate gets a bit to cold in winter for my liking and I can't grow year round.
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Old 01-05-2010, 02:44 AM   #43
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I tend to agree with the "magic" of a place being important.

How do you feel about the volcanic aspect of Hawaii? Do you think the concern is more economic than one of earth changes? I've considered Hawaii but I've never been there. Kauai sounds nice.

I've been considering various locations over the past few years and I haven't figured out a place that has all the right pieces. At the moment I live in a mountain area with a pretty magical vibe- but the climate gets a bit to cold in winter for my liking and I can't grow year round.
The volcanic aspect doesn't bother me, especially living on Kauai because is several islands West of the big island where the active volcano is. I feel the concerns are both economic and environmental, that both are entering into a perfect storm scenario. Both humanity and the planet are on an unsustainable course....

Survival is a matter of reconnecting with the Earth on as much of self sustainable course as possible. I've been to Kauai and it has the best of all worlds there....it's the called the Garden Island because of all the beautiful flora and exotic plants, there's an area there that's called the miniature Grand Canyon, awe inspiring cliff's line the North coast, I think Hanalei Bay was where the song "Puff the Magic Dragon" was written - some how the song and the place are tied together?? Kauai is kind of the forgotten island, the Big Island, Maui and Oahu tend to get more of the tourists. Kauai still gets enough tourist $$ to keep the island going...

It's about the only place in America I can think of that has a climate where you can grow year round, that has fertile soil and isn't in the South. And, right now if I had my choice I would get as far away from America as possible, unfortunately there aren't too many places in the world where Americans are welcome. In fact we're hated most every where, so even if I went to another country I'd probably be paranoid that I was a target for hate crimes or kidnapping.

What I liked about Hawaii was it was far enough away that it almost felt like being in another country and you don't need a passport
to get there. The more I think about it the better it sounds...
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Old 01-05-2010, 03:09 PM   #44
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I have often thought about this and have come to at least a semi conclusion...

There can be no rules and no system, people can choose to co-operate with others or not. The moment you make another rigid system that everyone must conform to then you create the new world order all over again.

People have thought they have had the best concept for human living time and time again, but any system that does not include everyone and every concept is doomed to fail. We need no more systems!!!!!!!
This is an interesting string. T-Y

If this is true then I'm free to be picky, plunder, rip, lie, cheat and cut corners, decieve, and manipulate. Oh My...

Maybe 'system' could be replaced with another word that more aptly describes community, no matter the size.... Golden rule neighbors thrive best next to neighboring golden rule neighbors.

My definition of a self sufficient community would include developing practical skills, sharing work and rewards.

What with all the truth out there and things to learn, there would be no idle time because everyone would be busy working together...

We are capable and ready to begin the work of community and all that this involves including how to get along and work with one another. Encouragement = Progress. Teamwork is knowing when to take control and when to yield.

It's conceivable. These ideals can permeate. It's happened before and it'll happen again successfully as priority dictates.

Education, developing skills, coaching, encouraging others with patience, promotes and maintains community focus and is a working model.

One of our choices is to remain where we are now and grow where we're planted, as they say. Ask the trees, they know.

Kind Regards,
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