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Old 08-09-2009, 01:15 AM   #1
Karen
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Default Posting long passages of outside text is prohibited.

It is time to begin enforcing a long ignored forum guideline:

Posting long passages of outside text is prohibited.

POSTING ‘NAKED’ LINKS

When sharing outside material with the list, please do it in the form of links with summary paragraphs. Posting long passages of outside text, regardless of relevance, is prohibited.

We do ask that you either summarize the content of the link in a paragraph of your own words and / or with a single-paragraph excerpt from the text itself. “Naked” links, i.e. links without summary text, should be avoided, as most members do not have the time to blindly research such links.

Naked link = just a link with no description or explanation

Last edited by Karen; 11-11-2009 at 05:37 AM.
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Old 08-09-2009, 01:37 AM   #2
Karen
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Default Re: Posting long passages of outside text is prohibited.

This is the guideline that is most difficult for me to have the heart to enforce.
And it is the one that people will ignore the most and actually fight to maintain their "right" to post huge sections of work written by other people.

I love the ease with which you can read an entire offering within the context of staying in this forum and not having to click an outside link.

However, it is one of the most important to enforce as it prevents massive infringement upon the copyrights of others - and more reasons which you can find by searching the web.

The term "netiquette" brings up some great resources for understanding why these guidelines are put in place across all forums and discussion lists.
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Old 08-09-2009, 02:06 AM   #3
Unified Serenity
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Default Re: Posting long passages of outside text is prohibited.

Karen, excuse me if I am wrong here, but isn't there a "fair use" policy online that as long as you give proper credit you can post a great deal of another's writing?

I have even seen the clause posted on websites that do cite a lot of other's works.

I am taking this short bit from "Fair use of copyrights material":

Copyright does not protect, this Policy does not apply to, and anyone may freely use*:

* Works that lack originality
o logical, comprehensive compilations (like the phone book)
o unoriginal reprints of public domain works
* Works in the public domain
* Freeware (not shareware, but really, expressly, available free of restrictions-ware -- this may be protected by law, but the author has chosen to make it available without any restrictions)
* US Government works
* Facts
* Ideas, processes, methods, and systems described in copyrighted works

RULES OF THUMB FOR RESEARCH COPIES
Limit research copies to

*
single chapters
*
single articles from a journal issue
*
several charts, graphs, illustrations
*
other similarly small parts of a work.

*My opinion is that most of the quoted works are single articles, charts, graphs, and works from the public domain. Granted some people are quoting some vast works including many chapters, and for this I would say put in one chapter and if the reader is so inclined they may go to the link and read the rest.

This is not a forum to make a profit, but rather share ideas with one another. I do not think anyone can claim the small subscription fee is to get a chance to read others works free of charge. It is about sharing information from many sources and discussing that information. I am of course happy to only cite a chapter or paragraph, but sometimes the article is just easier to copy if it is six or seven paragraphs and I do believe that fits the fair use rule. I am also aware of the owners of this site not wishing to get entangled in some legal battle, but a simple fair use pop up or notice on the sign-in page would probably protect the site.
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Old 08-09-2009, 02:25 AM   #4
Marian-Librarian
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Default Re: Posting long passages of outside text is prohibited.

No....

Fair use is applied to academic settings..........

Sorry!

I've been down this road before....Avalon is NOT academic usage....

I've had many conversations with my professors and other professionals her at school....and one is an attorney!!!!
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Old 08-09-2009, 02:29 AM   #5
Marian-Librarian
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Default Re: Posting long passages of outside text is prohibited.

Fair usage on websites is often abused....



yikes...don't want to get into an academic debate...but...

unfortunately, most people do what they want,and think they are correct in doing it...

since the web is such a large and vast place to play.

Karen is talking about one thing...keeping the forum easy to read...and you are talking about another issue...information sharing...

if I read this correctly....
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Old 08-09-2009, 02:34 AM   #6
Karen
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Default Re: Posting long passages of outside text is prohibited.

Thank you Marian-Librarian ...

Like I say I have multiple reasons for not wanting to enforce this one - the Fair Use argument sounds so enticing. Thank you for the clarification.
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Old 08-09-2009, 02:38 AM   #7
Karen
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Default Re: Posting long passages of outside text is prohibited.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marian-Librarian View Post
Karen is talking about one thing...keeping the forum easy to read...and you are talking about another issue...information sharing...

if I read this correctly....
No, this one is not about easy to read. For me, it is easier to read if the whole article is posted right here ... click one more link and I go from 44 open browser windows to 45.

It's about legal, moral, ethical ... and the standard rules of netiquette.
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Old 08-09-2009, 02:43 AM   #8
Unified Serenity
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Default Re: Posting long passages of outside text is prohibited.

Hello Marian,

Well as you can see it is a much debated topic even in the realm of academia. Have you ever heard the quip that where there are 3 lawyers there are 5 or more opinions? ( I should know, my sister is a judge, ugh)

Now here is a site that is dealing with the whole internet issue, and part of it says:

Copyright on the internet

"Fair use is one of the most important, and least clear cut, limits to copyright. It permits some use of others' works even without approval. But when? Words like "fair" or "reasonable" cannot be precisely defined, but here are a few benchmarks.

Uses that advance public interests such as criticism, education or scholarship are favored -- particularly if little of another's work is copied. Uses that generate income or interfere with a copyright owner's income are not. Fairness also means crediting original artists or authors. (A teacher who copied, without credit, much of another's course materials was found to infringe.)

Commercial uses of another's work are also disfavored. For example, anyone who uses, without explicit permission, others' work to suggest that they endorse some commercial product is asking for trouble! Yet, not all commercial uses are forbidden. Most magazines and newspapers are operated for profit; that they are not automatically precluded from fair use has been made clear by the U.S. Supreme Court."

As we can see, it is limited and it cannot harm the authors means of income generation. It would be highly unethical to purchase someone's newsletter they charge for and then put it on a forum for all to read free of charge, but if they have it on their free to public website, it would not harm them to post a few paragraphs along with a link. In fact, it would probably be helping them as it would send people to their website if they saw merit in the work and thus generate income for them from site hits and/or interest to purchase their products or other works.

I also think the idea is "limited" sharing and not posting more than a chapter or an article. This is a site for criticism, research and education. No, it is not an academic institution, but I would not call this site a dating service or gaming site. It's about intellectual discussion and sharing of information and ideas.

I think the biggest problem is people plagiarizing (something I have personally dealt with when others stole my poetry and stories and posted them on their sites). It is very important to have some means to show you wrote it first and putting it up on a forum with a prior date shows who wrote it.

If you cannot agree with my points then we will agree to disagree. It is not a concluded topic by experts by any means.
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Old 08-09-2009, 01:28 PM   #9
orthodoxymoron
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Default Re: Posting long passages of outside text is prohibited.

Naked Links? That sounds kinda sexy!

Seriously...is this new restriction internally or externally motivated? Have there been threats and/or lawsuits? Is this a prevention...or is it a remedy?
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Old 08-09-2009, 07:44 PM   #10
Unified Serenity
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Default Re: Posting long passages of outside text is prohibited.

I could be wrong, but I think the 'sexy' naked link issue is so people can get a gist of what the link is about and not waste time going somewhere to see what a link is about and then discovering it's not something they are interested in reading. Just post a short summary of what the link is discussing.
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Old 08-09-2009, 08:31 PM   #11
Karen
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Default Re: Posting long passages of outside text is prohibited.

Quote:
Originally Posted by orthodoxymoron View Post
Seriously...is this new restriction internally or externally motivated? Have there been threats and/or lawsuits? Is this a prevention...or is it a remedy?
As far as I know, this guideline has existed from day one of this forum and it has simply not been enforced. But I wasn't a moderator at the beginning so all I know is what I was told. Gareth says Bill and Kerry wrote the guidelines and I take that to mean adapted a standard set of guidelines to fit their group because the language is so similar to other sets. But that is an assumption.

I have started Yahoo groups for around 10 years, and during that time I have frequently studied the "netiquette" rules for discussion groups and forums in detail. PROJECT AVALON GUIDELINES very much mirror the standard guidelines in any online group.

I will make the analogy with traffic rules. The stop signs, the traffic signals, the drunk driving rules are all there for a reason - to sustain a reasonable order of behavior where the least amount of people get hurt. You can disobey the traffic rules if you want to.

Here is the beginning of the guidelines: "Most online discussion forums quickly descend into chaos worthy of the Roman coliseums. In order to maintain a higher quality discussion, we ask that you follow these guidelines:"

This is what I know for sure, first-hand: Several years ago, while co-moderating a huge indigo Yahoo group, it came to the fore that if there were complaints about copied material, Yahoo without warning or explanation, would nuke the group out of existence. So the rule was strictly enforced and moderating team was frequently bucked by everyone who thought they didn't need to follow the "no copied material, just post a link with a summary or snippet" rule. Indigos pretty much object to rules and demands about behavior. I understand why.

*This is not a new restriction ... I am simply taking the initiative at this time to enforce it.
*There have been no threats or lawsuits specific to this forum, (other than the Mannatech supplements/health claims fiasco which has all been deleted) but there have been actions taken against other groups and individuals.
*I would call it preventative AND a remedy for unthinking trespasses against those who write and place information on the Internet.

The Internet has been a real boon for free and easy access to information previously hard come by. Some (not pointing fingers at anyone here, just in general) carry this a bit too far and think (no demand) that the internet should be a free-for-all with no rules.

Rules/guidelines come into play where ever a group of people gather because there are those that think they can run amok how ever they want to. Back to the traffic analogy - so in America, they say everyone drive on the right side of the road so we don't crash into each other so often. And most will agree to do so for the common good.

It's about respect for others. Courtesy. Netiquette. You can burp and fart in the conference room or at the dinner table if you want to, but it's a sign respect for your companions not to do so.

Hope this helps,
Karen
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Old 08-25-2009, 11:45 PM   #12
Karen
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Default Re: Posting long passages of outside text is prohibited.

Reminder -
Posting long passages of outside text is prohibited.

It is time to begin enforcing a long ignored forum guideline:

Posting long passages of outside text is prohibited.

When sharing outside material with the list, please do it in the form of links with summary paragraphs. Posting long passages (i.e. more than a few short paragraphs) of outside text, regardless of relevance, is prohibited.

We do ask that you either summarize the content of the link in a paragraph of your own words and / or with a single-paragraph excerpt from the text itself. “Naked” links, i.e. links without summary text, should be avoided, as most members do not have the time to blindly research such links.

Naked link = just a link with no description or explanation
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Old 08-25-2009, 11:50 PM   #13
mntruthseeker
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Default Re: Posting long passages of outside text is prohibited.

oh geeze I must of broken a rule or two

Oh well.............moving on
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Old 08-25-2009, 11:53 PM   #14
sammytray
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Default Re: Posting long passages of outside text is prohibited.

I think I was Guilty of this... oops, sorry Karen. Will try and comply.

(although I can't stand rules!)
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Old 08-25-2009, 11:53 PM   #15
Karen
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Default Re: Posting long passages of outside text is prohibited.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mntruthseeker View Post
oh geeze I must of broken a rule or two

Oh well.............moving on
OK then, could you just go back and delete all but the most juicy paragraph or two?
It's an important rule that lot of people are not aware of.
I don't like following it myself - but it's important.
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Old 08-25-2009, 11:57 PM   #16
Karen
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Default Re: Posting long passages of outside text is prohibited.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sammytray View Post
I think I was Guilty of this... oops, sorry Karen. Will try and comply.

(although I can't stand rules!)
Oh, I know {shudder} I despise senseless rules myself.
This one does make some sense though,
I cringe at having to try to enforce it.
I have put it off for a long time ...
Please go back and edit the long ones.
Thank you!
Many Blessings,
Karen
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Old 08-26-2009, 12:09 AM   #17
sammytray
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Default Re: Posting long passages of outside text is prohibited.

trying to figure out how to go back. Is it quicker if you just remove what needs to be removed? ya have my permission
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Old 08-26-2009, 12:21 AM   #18
Karen
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Default Re: Posting long passages of outside text is prohibited.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sammytray View Post
trying to figure out how to go back. Is it quicker if you just remove what needs to be removed? ya have my permission
Well, I don't mean you have to go all the way back, but I would appreciate if you could do at least the last month of long quotes of outside material yourself. There are quite a few ways to find your posts. Click "search" then "advanced search" type in your username and scroll down to hit the search button.

You can click your user name in a forum thread (by your avatar) and it will give you some options. You can click "Find more post by (username)."

So many people are not aware of this "guideline" that it would take me forever to fix them all myself. It would take a long long time to PM everyone that is doing it.

It's not the end of the world if you don't fix the old ones ...

Many Blessings,
Karen
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Old 09-12-2009, 12:07 AM   #19
Karen
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Default Re: Posting long passages of outside text is prohibited.

Please help - follow the rule.
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Old 09-26-2009, 06:10 AM   #20
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Default Re: Posting long passages of outside text is prohibited.

This outside text also uses up bandwidth for nothing.

I also think, that on any forum it is more important that you the member's originality is far more valuable than anyone's work or material outside of the forum. At least I get to know you as a member on some kind of a personable level. It's difficult to do that with material that comes from elsewhere, gets posted by someone, and we have no idea who wrote it because we don't know them in the first place. I will also not get a chance to know in the first hand.

A link should just be considered like a footnote for reference. If others are interested they can go directly to that site and have an eye full. Another thing to consider is that what you treasure may seem like junk to someone else. At least it is not in their face when you post a link. This also helps the quality of the forum to become more valuable. I'll take that any day over quantity. We forget that a forum is not a website. The idea of a forum is to discuss issues and hopefully prove things out.

I concur! You Go Karen!
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Old 09-26-2009, 06:17 AM   #21
Karen
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Default Re: Posting long passages of outside text is prohibited.

Thank you Lionhawk, thank you. It's rare to get much agreement on following this guideline. What a pleasant surprise!
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Old 09-26-2009, 12:05 PM   #22
Luminari
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Default Re: Posting long passages of outside text is prohibited.

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Old 09-26-2009, 02:53 PM   #23
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Default Re: Posting long passages of outside text is prohibited.

No problem Karen. As soon as I wrote my posting in this thread last night, I left here to go to another thread and there it was. Someone responding by using someones' work. What is the value of that? Granted the material content is important in the eyes of the beholder but it was like a slap in the face. Are people that lazy I asked myself?

Been there done that, on website management, and only if people knew what it takes to steer it along. They wouldn't do these kind of things just based out of consideration and respect for everyone involved. I also believe some don't even know what they are doing or realize what they are doing.

I would put a major sticky on this topic on the forefront of this forum and have the mods take care of business. The terms of use, is just to much to keep in mind, but a sticky on the forefront might do a better job for you. This shouldn't be all on you. It is just to much to handle in terms of enforcement.

Namaste'
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Old 11-04-2009, 10:55 AM   #24
Karen
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Default Re: Posting long passages of outside text is prohibited.

Please help us out and follow the guidelines.
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Old 11-04-2009, 06:01 PM   #25
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Default Re: Posting long passages of outside text is prohibited.

I have a cat (Einstein) who knows more about computers than I do, but even I understand that outside text quotes uses up bandwith etc.

Instead of long quotations you could point out to what you're refering by telling just that. ('Refering to ...')
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