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Old 09-14-2008, 08:46 PM   #1
Baggywrinkle
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Default Standing on moving ground; get out of debt

Back in the day, my grandparents lived through the depression. Their generation was much better equipped to live through such an event than we are today. They lived on a cash basis. They owned their home free and clear or they rented. They were not far removed from the land and still knew the skills to sustain themselves.

We will suffer more than they did. If the web bot project and hawkeye are correct it will be soon.

The bankruptcy laws have changed in America. Bankruptcy no longer clears you of unsecured (credit card) debt. If the unsecured debt is not cleared and you cannot pay, what secures the debt? You do. Your person secures the debt. You become an indentured servant to your creditor. Does this clarify some of the purpose behind the FEMA concentration camps built all around the country? Debtors prison is coming back. Labor camps....

In 2006 Steve Shenk made us aware of a debt payoff idea known as the HELOC shuffle. This system worked well for us. We were on track to pay off our thirty year mortgage in just under five years. Seriously.
The economic climate has changed. The banks are failing, and the equity in the homes is going away.

So what are we left with?

Using the HELOC shuffle changed the way we look at our money.

How deep in debt are you? Be honest now.
Are you a paycheck from the poorhouse?
Are you upside down?
Are you swirling the drain?
Are you bankrupt?

Do you even know?

I do. As we sit here I am one hundred thirty eight thousand dollars in debt. That's a lot of freedom chips.
At least I know, to the penny.

We are still working a modified version of the original
HELOC shuffle. I can tell you more about it and how to work it if you'd like.

In the current economic climate we are more like our
grandparents then we dare admit. The appropriate solution to debt is simple. Earn more than you spend. Spend on a cash basis.

Here is a system that will show you how.
http://www.youneedabudget.com/blog/
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Old 09-14-2008, 11:15 PM   #2
Mizar
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Default Re: Standing on moving ground; get out of debt

Good Post Baggy;
10 years ago we started a strong Debt elimination program, most debts are now gone, while others were getting HELOCS to purchase fancy holidays, cars and rental properties we stayed the course.
Now we have cash to buy gold and stuff for the final getaway.
It is never too late to start getting out of debt. Start tomorrow morning by making a PB&J sandwich for lunch and keep doing it.
M
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Old 09-15-2008, 02:39 AM   #3
TribalWealth
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Default Re: Standing on moving ground; get out of debt

Thanks for the info Baggywrinkle.

That helps me to understand more about the relationship between our present economic climate and the FEMA camps.
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Old 09-15-2008, 02:57 AM   #4
doodah
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Default Re: Standing on moving ground; get out of debt

Baggywrinkle

We are still working a modified version of the original
HELOC shuffle. I can tell you more about it and how to work it if you'd like.


Yes, please, Baggywrinke. I am not aware of this thing you speak of. My debt is not nearly so burdensome as yours, but there is some that I'm whittling away at. Would this help me whittle faster? Thanks!
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Old 09-15-2008, 03:44 AM   #5
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Default Re: Standing on moving ground; get out of debt

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Originally Posted by doodah View Post
Yes, please, Baggywrinke. I am not aware of this thing you speak of. My debt is not nearly so burdensome as yours, but there is some that I'm whittling away at. Would this help me whittle faster? Thanks!
In the current economic climate the HELOC shuffle as it
was taught to me is not safe. You must trust that your
bank will not freeze your HELOC leaving you high and dry.

View these videos by Harj Gill to see how the shuffle
worked.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRDWnKHZOM8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUWvQD9zbQ8
http://www.youtube.com/user/speedequity

btw; you don't need anyone's software to make this work...

We were taught to use two and one half times our
monthly take home pay as a cap on the HELOC.

Our modified version will entail one month's take
home as a heloc cap with one month held in savings as
emergency reserve in case the heloc is frozen on us.
We also will not be paying primary bills from the heloc.
The heloc will only be used for lump sum payments toward
the mortgage, and emergencies
It is less efficient and will take longer, but it will still work.

Last edited by Baggywrinkle; 09-15-2008 at 04:03 AM.
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Old 09-15-2008, 04:38 AM   #6
doodah
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Default Re: Standing on moving ground; get out of debt

Baggywrinkle

View these videos by Harj Gill to see how the shuffle
worked.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRDWnKHZOM8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUWvQD9zbQ8
http://www.youtube.com/user/speedequity


Thank you, but let me explain that I have an old computer that cannot run any video from youtube. Is there another source I could reference that I could read? I could just google this thing, but I was hoping you could point me to known resources instead of wading through everything on the web. You say HELOC isn't safe now, anyhow ...

Thanks for your reply.
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Old 09-15-2008, 05:23 AM   #7
Oiran
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Default Re: Standing on moving ground; get out of debt

Great post... but I have to correct one thing... while the bankruptcy laws have certainly become much stricter, it is still possible to clear credit card debt by filing for Chapter 7 Bankruptcy. You have to go through a lot of red tape and pass the hearing, but it is still a workable option, at this point, anyway...
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Old 09-15-2008, 05:32 AM   #8
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Default Re: Standing on moving ground; get out of debt

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oiran View Post
Great post... but I have to correct one thing... while the bankruptcy laws have certainly become much stricter, it is still possible to clear credit card debt by filing for Chapter 7 Bankruptcy. You have to go through a lot of red tape and pass the hearing, but it is still a workable option, at this point, anyway...

Thank you for the correction. I am not a financial type and
hopefully will never need a working knowledge of chapter 7

It still sounds like your freedom hinges on the mercy and good humor of the Queen's court.

Last edited by Baggywrinkle; 09-15-2008 at 05:35 AM.
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Old 09-15-2008, 09:37 PM   #9
THE eXchanger
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Default Re: Standing on moving ground; get out of debt

is that 158,000 debt including YOUR mortgage ???
or, is that 158,000 debt incurred in
regular day to day type of living ???
to have that much credit extended,
you must either
1) make a lot of money or,
2) you serviced credit cards very well, and, they kept extending you, more and more credit cards,
til, they have you buried
somewhere in the total equation--
do you own a house ?
if a line of credit of $158,000 is 2.9% at 192.92/mo
or, 385.32/mo at 10% (or somewhere, in between)
that could be a logical alternative
& yet, if it's at 18% it costs $2370.00 to carry monthly.
(that would really hurt)
is there a way to rearrange your assets ?
is there a way to consolidate the debt/and, stop the interest ?
what contents do you have you don't need ?
(and, get rid of things-sell stuff you do NOT need)
or, do you have a massive collection of some kind ?
(and, you could turn that over into some cash)
wow, that i a lot of debt !!!

*****************************************
thankfully, outside of a modest mortgage
(which, i would NOT have, if i didn't re_mortgage
to stay out of 3D work world, in 2004, and, 2008)
*here, you get that money ALL TAX FREE !!!
so, why NOT, if i die, i can't take any of it with me

Recently, i arranged a new mortgage,
NOT, to pay off debt, but, to have funds available,
so, i can MAKE a shift - besides, i have a business,
and, here, we can write off a lot of things,
the first $25,000 i earn,
is offset by home office expenses,
and, after that, well, like everyone else, i pay something.

I did this, because, i love to be here, and, work
then, work for someone else...
i can do what i want to do
and, NOT have to be bossed around by anyone else,
but, myself - also, it is so much easier

i do NOT owe anyone anything--
just a simple/low mortgage payment
it costs to live, so, if i sell, i can just transport that equity
elsewhere

the only thing, i service, is others
and, i invest in futures
(those things that get me/and,
move me, in my heart)

if i do NOT really desire something,
i go without it

i know what i need, and, i discarded my wants list, aeons ago

i invest in art, and, if it appreciates,
more, than i appreciate it, i sell it

i have invested strongly in a collection
of crystals, and, minerals/rocks and stones
and, some gold/and, silver (and, keep it yourself)
in a safe place

i followed my parents rules,
do NOT go into debt for anything, but a house

also do NOT allow yourself to have something,
if you have NOT already earned it ...
if you do NOT have the money - then, it's a NO GO until you do

ONE thing that helped me,
was, when i wanted something big,
i had to want it for 3 months, before i could have it
oft times, something better was developed in those 3 months,
so, i got something even better, when i got around to buying it
and, sometimes, after 3 months, it just was something
i didn't need anymore, so, i was glad i didn't buy it

*****************************************
sometimes, when you get into a mess,
it's a good idea, to detail,
by separting, all the things, that made the mess in the first place,
it's often very surprising, where the money went
sometimes, that can help you trim a few things
and, NOT repeat those errors again

someone should be publically be hung,
for allowing people to get into these types of debt--
i think, that is coming

*****************************************
remember energy is everything,
and, everything is energy
start a process to rise your energy,
and, that ought to help to get more funds flowing
to you

brightest blessings
susan
the eXchanger

Last edited by THE eXchanger; 09-15-2008 at 09:42 PM.
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Old 09-16-2008, 04:28 AM   #10
Baggywrinkle
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Default Re: Standing on moving ground; get out of debt

That is 138,000 total debt including the mortgage.

It is all mortgage debt plus HELOC debt which went to
pay down the mortgage. In the current climate the HELOC
interest rate is less then the primary fixed rate mortgage.
We won't be strong A.R.M.ed out of our home, though we
may be unemployed out. That would be a sad day for the
country since I am a federal employee

We live on less then half our take home. The rest is split between preparations for what is coming and paying down the mortgage.
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Old 09-17-2008, 06:31 PM   #11
pineal-pilot-in merkabah
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Default Re: Standing on moving ground; get out of debt

if your from the uk just dump it all. i went bankrupt last june and it cost £360.. if its over a certain amount your throwing your money away. just walk away from yourt house and what not if you can. stock up on foods ans survival stuff first then try and just leave it all behind. i live in a friends garden shed lol. so im half way there as far as living in the wilds and getting ready to live off the land!! dont be scared just do what you feel is roight
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Old 09-17-2008, 11:40 PM   #12
Ampgod
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Default Re: Standing on moving ground; get out of debt

Debt won't matter if it goes to full on depression.

Aside from that,

Being in debt is economic slavery controlled by the big bankers.
Take your power back!
Don't spend what you don't have.
Stop being a greedy pig.



Ampgod
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Old 09-18-2008, 03:40 AM   #13
MargueriteBee
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Default Re: Standing on moving ground; get out of debt

A friend who is a retired financial advisor said to not pay off my debt (just a few credit cards, no mortgage) because when the dollar crashes so many people will not pay their debts it won't matter. On the other hand I want to pay it all off if I retire this year. I'm not sure what to do so I think I will ask my higher self in meditation.
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Old 09-18-2008, 03:46 AM   #14
Shellie
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Default Re: Standing on moving ground; get out of debt

That's funny, I've been wondering; if the dollar crashes, or if we switch to Ameros, will I still owe on my car and student loan (which are in dollars)?

Just think- if we could ever hope to get a raise after the dollar crashes, think of how many less hours we would have to work to pay off a dollar debt from the past... I owe $19,000 in student loans, and about $8,000 on a car... that might very well be just one paycheck in the near future!
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Old 09-18-2008, 03:46 AM   #15
Baggywrinkle
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Default Re: Standing on moving ground; get out of debt

Quote:
Originally Posted by MargueriteBee View Post
A friend who is a retired financial advisor said to not pay off my debt (just a few credit cards, no mortgage) because when the dollar crashes so many people will not pay their debts it won't matter. On the other hand I want to pay it all off if I retire this year. I'm not sure what to do so I think I will ask my higher self in meditation.
One avenue which we consider valid - especially if you
are uncertain is to invest in gold/silver. Using this
vehicle to protect the value of your wealth may allow
you to pay off your home with devalued dollars later.

During the thirties a one ounce gold piece would buy a nice
mans suit. Today that same one ounce gold piece will still
buy a nice mans suit.

We opted instead for the Alpha strategy, stock piling
stuff we actually use because you cannot eat gold.
As I sit here I am awaiting delivery of a case of #10 cans
of dehydrated potatoes. These may be bartered or
consumed later

Last edited by Baggywrinkle; 09-18-2008 at 03:48 AM.
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Old 09-18-2008, 05:55 AM   #16
Ampgod
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Default Re: Standing on moving ground; get out of debt

This rush for silver and gold will make us crash even faster.
Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeee enjoy the ride friends. We need this!
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Old 09-29-2008, 07:07 PM   #17
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Default Re: Standing on moving ground; get out of debt

Hi, this is my first post and I greet you all! I live in Europe, engylish is not my native language, so please bear with my grammar.

In Serbia, during the economic isolation and sanctions in the '90, the economy just went bananas. The inflation rate was huge: people would get their monthly salaries in the morning, and in the afternoon, when they went home, they couldn't even buy a loaf of bread for that money!

Peoples mortgages were paid off in no time, as the loans were with fixed interest rates. In view of that the whole banking system colapsed, and the last thing the government would think of was to help the banks from falling through. They were preoccupied with the health care, housing problems, roads, railroads, power grid, schools, police, firebrigades ect.

Some people bought their own homes for 100$.

All of this lasted for 10 years, some years worse than others, but nevertheless it was pretty hard to survive. Gas was almost impossible to buy, and the black market thrived, making some people very rich in a very short while. People in the cities relied on their own wit, their friends, family, connections ect. with a lot of help from the family in the rural areas, or because they had a small garden lot, outside the cities.

Maybe we should learn from people that have been through those circumstances, people that have been in wars, or had their countries occupied, or simply poor people, who don't have more in stock than necessary for the present day.

How are people in Iran living now? How did they survive through 16 years of sanctions and war? Their daily living is what we are trying to prepare us self for. Lot's of lessons to be learned there, I'm sure.

Peace!
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Old 09-30-2008, 04:31 AM   #18
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Default Re: Standing on moving ground; get out of debt

Quote:
Originally Posted by Montenegro View Post
How are people in Iran living now? How did they survive through 16 years of sanctions and war? Their daily living is what we are trying to prepare us self for. Lot's of lessons to be learned there, I'm sure.

Peace!
Please Please, tell us more. Start a new thread and tell
us in detail what it was like in Serbia, and how people
survived. This is SO IMPORTANT

Thank you for your post!

Blessings

D&D
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Old 10-13-2008, 05:21 AM   #19
Kelphi
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Default Re: Standing on moving ground; get out of debt

If the financial institutes are going away who will own our house notes? Who do we pay?
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Old 10-13-2008, 05:31 AM   #20
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Default Re: Standing on moving ground; get out of debt

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelphi View Post
If the financial institutes are going away who will own our house notes? Who do we pay?
In the short term your notes will be bundled up and sold/
merged acquired.

There is an opportunity here should they move to foreclose. You may demand that they prove that they
own the note. You may demand that they produce the original note in court. If they cannot, you are free.
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Old 10-13-2008, 05:45 AM   #21
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Default Re: Standing on moving ground; get out of debt

Excellent post. In Canada you are not allowed to claim student loans in a bankruptcy until 10 years after you've been out of school. Different countries have different rules. I also know our debt to the penny. It's important for me to know our financial situation and not hide my head in the clouds. I've discussed money quite a bit with my parents and one thing that was concluded was that it was very different back in the 1940's when my parent's built their house. For one, you were allowed to build one room at a time and live in the house until it was finished. Now, you must have a home inspected and it must me almost entirely complete before you can move in. I also learned about the prices. If you looked at an average income of say, $200/month the property was only about $2000 and food was grown in your yard and groceries were not that expensive. Now, an average income could be anywhere from $
2-4000/month, more or less, but a lot is anywhere from $50-150 000 and houses are beyond reasonable. It takes at least 25 years to pay a mortgage off and you pay the banks a mint in interest. Everything is bought on credit because saving for a car or a home could take a lifetime. We are constantly seeing images of everything we could buy - just use that credit card. It's scary that "credit" is pushed on society as a good thing. We tried living without a credit card for a year. It was nearly impossible. It seemed like everyone wanted a credit card - we couldn't even book a hotel room without one. It really opened my eyes. It will be interesting to see how things might change in "this era" for us and what it will be like for future generations.
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