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Ty
4th January 2011, 14:57
I'm opening this thread to redirect a subtopic that was opened in Ahkenaten's "Can We Withdraw Consent from the Control Paradigm?" thread. That thread got sidetracked into these topics starting around post 206 and was the main focus of it from post 213 to 236 when Teakai suggested a separate thread.

While I am opening this thread please don't consider it "mine." I will not likely have time to reply to all posts and claim no authority on the subjects in question. I broached the subject in Ahk's thread because it had some relevance there and I was seeking other opinions on this. I doubt there is a definitive answer to the two primary questions but there is no shortage of opinions here.

I invite all to keep things cordial and inquisitive and explore these two ideas...

1) Free will is an illusion
2) What is consciousness?

Some background:

1) Free will is an illusion. I don't believe this but can't penetrate an argument made by a friend of mine which boils down to this. Every choice we make, belief we hold, thought we have arises from neural activity. Neural activity is the process of certain neurons firing in a certain order. Which neurons fire and in which order determines, among many other things, a thought, which ultimately is at the basis of our choices and beliefs. Neurons fire as the result of bio-chemical and electrical triggers. Free will would require that we are in control of these triggers and not at their mercy. By all indications we aren't. Intraphase posted a very interesting piece from Scientific American in post 230 of Ahk's thread, which starts out:


A good pointer for physical consciousness is a google search for "Default Mind Network"from Scientific American. It seems the mind never stops chatting itself up. Sometimes the conversation is kicked upstairs through the sub mind filters and arrives at a conscious thought or progression of inner dialogue. For the more eclectic levels of so called quantum consciousness as the wave particle duality battle I suggest this page. http://www.quantumconsciousness.org/penrose-hameroff/orchOR.html About a third of the way down the illustration drill right down to lattices of positive and negative charged water pockets engaged in quantum computing deep deep deep in the micro realm.

(Please advise if article is inappropriate so I can edit it :mad2:out)


The Brain’s Dark Energy

Imagine you are almost dozing in a lounge chair outside, with a
magazine on your lap. Suddenly, a fly lands on your arm. You grab the
magazine and swat at the insect. What was going on in your brain after
the fly landed? And what was going on just before? Many
neuroscientists have long assumed that much of the neural activity
inside your head when at rest matches your subdued, somnolent mood. In
this view, the activity in the resting brain represents nothing more
than random noise, akin to the snowy pattern on the television screen
when a station is not broadcasting. Then, when the fly alights on your
forearm, the brain focuses on the conscious task of squashing the bug.
But recent analysis produced by neuroimaging technologies has revealed
something quite remarkable: a great deal of meaningful activity is
occurring in the brain when a person is sitting back and doing nothing
at all.

The article is a fairly easy read but long. To paraphrase, it seems that the brain more or less has it's own agenda. It is busy 24/7 doing "something" and whatever that is, it temporarily diverts resources from it as needed to respond to our conscious requests, which constitute a small fraction of the overall activity.

While I would like to think that we have free will, this is more than just an intellectual curiosity. There is much discussion in some threads about a "control paradigm." If we aren't in the driver's seat at the bio-chemical, electrical level of the origin of thought, is that not the ultimate control paradigm?

2) What is consciousness? Closely related to the first question, perhaps this is just another way to ask the same question. To get the ball rolling I include here two posts from Ahk's thread

Ba-ba-Ra captures the essence of this in post 206:




It's still a bit of a leap for me, though, to believe that we somehow created this reality, either accidentally or on purpose.

Ty
Ty, I'd like to suggest a simple concept to begin this process, if you're interested. Take a lucid dream. You see people, you feel emotions, you preform tasks - and while you're in it - it all feels real, as if it's happening. For example if someone is chasing you, you feel the fear, you think you're running, you feel your heart beat. Where is all this happening?.... and who created it?

I think most of us would say that's just a state of consciousness. Of course, what we call awake, is another state of consciousness, but who's to say that we aren't creating this one as well? A scientist will tell you the chair you're sitting on is mostly space, with some molecules (atoms, electron, protons, etc) whirling around at phenomenal speeds. Yet to you the chair is solid and stationary. You can't put your finger through it. Science keeps breaking down matter, and the more they break it down, the less solid they find. We all accept this as true, yet we also believe it's all solid. So, would you say that somehow we've accepted two diametrically opposed beliefs systems about the world we live in?

Once you can accept that each state we live in is really just another state of consciousness -(deep sleep, dream state, lucid dream state, daydreaming, awake) then can you expand that to the possibility of other states of consciousness that we either haven't learned to access, or potentially we access and don't remember. Many people now have had out-of-body experiences. Perhaps that's one of them.

Okay, now go back to what we call awake state. Begin paying attention to each action you originate or respond to. Can you watch where it goes and see how life might have gone differently if you had reacted differently. I think we're all pretty much aware of how our actions create our reality with other humans. Now try it with something none human. Plants are often a good place to begin. Find one plant that you can truly love - and just love it. Sing and talk to it as if it were a baby, touch if affectionately, etc. Now see what happens. But you must do it from the heart & truly feel it.

Ty, I know this sounds simplistic and maybe eerie-fairy to some. But I encourage you to try it. Once you see results (and the first attempts may take some time- but as with learning to play an instrument as you practice your skill will grow), then keep expanding outward, love your house and property in the same way, then your street, then neighborhood, etc.

I replied to this as follows:


Hi Ba-ba-Ra,

I used to marvel at the similarity between the structure of the universe as we currently understand it and the structure of matter. Within a table leg, at the atomic and subatomic level lies another universe. Who's to say that our universe isn't a table leg in some higher dimension?



Of course, what we call awake, is another state of consciousness, but who's to say that we aren't creating this one as well? A scientist will tell you the chair you're sitting on is mostly space, with some molecules (atoms, electron, protons, etc) whirling around at phenomenal speeds. Yet to you the chair is solid and stationary. You can't put your finger through it. Science keeps breaking down matter, and the more they break it down, the less solid they find. We all accept this as true, yet we also believe it's all solid. So, would you say that somehow we've accepted two diametrically opposed beliefs systems about the world we live in?


No. I wouldn't say these are diametrically opposed. That solid matter is mostly empty space I just accept as the nature of matter. Kind of like accepting that humans are, if I remember right, 78% water. Everything is made up of something else and, like you said, each time we think we've drilled down to the basic building block we find another level. Last I heard we are now down to the muons, pions, gluons and such in the quantum realm. Have they detected anything smaller? I know they theorize now with String Theory that all matter is the result of vibrating strings, but there is a sharp divide among theoretical physicists on this theory.

There are several important differences I see betweeen dream-state and awake-state that lead me to believe that awake-state is more than just a state of conciousness. The main one is scope. In the dream-world our dreams (at least mine) always center around ourselves. It's like watching a movie where we are in every scene, nothing happens beyond the frame and only the people in that frame share the experience. I have tried to have "shared" dreams before with no success. To meet someone in the dream-state who I know in my awake-state and see if we have the same memory of the dream. So far have never been able to link up in the dream-world. Perhaps it's worth trying again. Interested?

At any rate, it seems that in the awake-state the world rolls on outside of the frame of it we occupy. That events outside of our frame are perceived identically by dozens, hundreds, thousands of people. If "we're" creating this, are we all creating the same shared remote events? Or is the reality I perceive in my awake-state just my reality and everyone in it who I consider to be "real" are just manifestations I interact with like in my dream-state?

If so then you don't actually exist and whatever response you give to this is actually me, whoever I really am, offering Ba-ba-Ra's perspective. And all the thousands of posts in this forum which I didn't even know existed a month ago, many sharply different opinions, are just me discussing and debating with myself?

I'm not denying that there are other states of conciousness. The problem I have believing that our awake-state is nothing else, beyond what I said above, is... where does it end? If what I experience in my day to day life isn't "reality" is the Earth? The solar system? The universe? Maybe that's the case. I don't know one way or the other. If it is, then it would be easier for me to believe that none of us really exist and our shared perceived reality is just the manifestation of someone else's dream. Wouldn't that be the ultimate control paradigm? That would rob us of any power at all to change things.

Of these three choices...

1) That "reality" exists outside of our conscious or subconscious creation of it
2) That "reality" is being manifested by someone, somewhere and we are all living in his dream world
3) That "reality" is being consciously manifested by each of us, knowingly or unknowingly, and only the appropriate "I" exists, everyone else is just a manifestation...

... it seems to me that 1 or 2 are the more likely. I'm sure there are more than these three and would like to explore them as well if someone wants to elaborate on this.

It's been demonstrated that this has a positive effect on plants. I don't know if it's been shown to be anything more than the benefits of increased CO2 though. But even if it has, it indicates a level of communication and connectedness that we don't currently understand and can't explain. It doesn't necessarily imply that "reality" is just a state of consciousness.

I have a friend with some psychic abilities. He grew up in an atypical environment and had to rely more on his primitive or innate instincts to survive. I think that resulted in him developing an ability we probably all have but fail to develop. But again, it doesn't necessarily imply some kind of shared consciousness.

Thanks Ba-ba-Ra for the encouragement. I have not yet looked at the videos posted a few posts back. Perhaps they will help me see things in a different light.

So these are the areas I'd like to explore in this thread. All views are welcome.

gryphynsclaw
4th January 2011, 17:02
This is a thread I want to be active in, yet my problem is not one of comprehension it is one of diversity. How many points are on the surface of a sphere sort of thing. So, please excuse my country bumpkin simplicity.
In recent years I have often heard it incorrectly expressed that shaman shape changing is the person trying to take on the caricaturist of various animals and as such believing they are that animal. Yet in reality it is a process of transferring the consciousnesses to an already existing animal. An integrating with the animal on a partial or complete level. This speaks a couple things to me, the body is really a shell or more likely in my mind a separate animal we are in a symbiotic relationship with. Which would play to your free will question on how you define the self. If you define the self as the animal you live within, then free will is in question. If you define it as what is living within the body then it is much more open.
The question becomes difficult due to the extent of our integration with the animal we live in. When they are looked at as two completely separate things it fits very nicely, opening up an abundance or possibility's .

BTW: I lean more toward #3 in that we all knowingly and unknowingly take part in creation every day. Yet rather then just the I existing everything conceivable exists or can exist.

Brad

Gone002
4th January 2011, 17:14
this is a great topic like so many others on this forum.

Ba-ba-Ra
4th January 2011, 18:17
What is consciousness! .... I've been playing with this for a long time. (Doesn't necessarily mean I've learned a lot - I could just be a slow learner- or I've found this is a better way to amuse myself than TV!)

First let me clarify: I don't think the dream state is "like" the awake state. It seems that in each state of consciousness we have different abilities.

For example: The difference between regular dream state and lucid dream state is that in lucid dream state you are observing what's going on in the dream as well as participating, so at some level you are in a sort of split consciousness - the You watching the dream and the You involved in the dream. Some people in the lucid dream state have learned to be able to allow the You watching, change things that are happening to the You partaking.

Then there is the day-dreaming or automatic pilot state. How often have you driven from point A to point B on automatic pilot. Who was consciously driving the car, looking out for traffic, etc. - So again, it seems that in this state you have split consciousness, but they are so split that they aren't aware of the other - as with the lucid dream where you are the watcher.

There are many documented cases of split-personalities. But to me the important thing is the physical attributes each personality has. For example: Let's give the main personality a name so it's easier to follow - Linda. Linda in one personality needs glasses - in another she doesn't. What? How is Linda doing this. In another personality Linda is allergic to peanut butter which gives her a violent reaction requiring medical attention. Yet in her other personalties she can eat peanut butter without a problem. What? How is this happening. Many documented cases of these types of behavior. Mind is incredibly powerful - that's why placebos work. But then why don't they work consistently for everyone? Again mind( or consciousness). (For clarification: I will always use mind & consciousness as the same. Brain is very different.)

I believe the more we probe this subject is our best chance for learning how we create so that we can learn to do it at a conscious level and thereby create what we really want. However, there has to be great honesty here and by that I mean with ourselves. Because some of us parrot the things we think we're supposed to say, but they are not what we really want. Many want to keep sparing - they enjoy the exercise and that is all right. Not to judge but to recognize.

I'll just leave it there for now - otherwise this could be a book!!!!!! But hopefully some food for thought and discussion.

bashi
4th January 2011, 21:22
Recent research has shown that the brain already reacts BEFORE the signal from the fly/arm reaches it. So everybody is moving in this reality-field in a kind of automatic precog-mode.
That squashes the mechanistic view of reality manifestation and of course then the argument of a non existent free will.
Another argument against would be the proven influence of will or willful imagination onto the reality of the body. There had been experiments where a person was touched briefly by a cold spoon and was made to believe it was hot. The blister developed rapidly...

BTW: A lucid dream is (per definition) a state where you know that you are dreaming and acting in a dream-world which you can change and form by willful manifestation.
It gives room for some quite unique experiences...

Ba-ba-Ra
4th January 2011, 23:35
Recent research has shown that the brain already reacts BEFORE the signal from the fly/arm reaches it. So everybody is moving in this reality-field in a kind of automatic precog-mode.
That squashes the mechanistic view of reality manifestation and of course then the argument of a non existent free will.
Another argument against would be the proven influence of will or willful imagination onto the reality of the body. There had been experiments where a person was touched briefly by a cold spoon and was made to believe it was hot. The blister developed rapidly...

BTW: A lucid dream is (per definition) a state where you know that you are dreaming and acting in a dream-world which you can change and form by willful manifestation.
It gives room for some quite unique experiences...

Just curious Bashi - do you think the brain and consciousness are one and the same or different as I do?

So, if you believe that you can change a lucid dream by willful manifestation than do you also believe that be true in the awake state or not?

Ty
5th January 2011, 04:23
Hi Bashi,



Recent research has shown that the brain already reacts BEFORE the signal from the fly/arm reaches it. So everybody is moving in this reality-field in a kind of automatic precog-mode.
That squashes the mechanistic view of reality manifestation and of course then the argument of a non existent free will.

Does it? It would seem to reinforce it to me. If the brain is anticipating the fly and reacting to it before we are consciously aware of it, how does that become an argument FOR free will?

I would like to know more about that study, too. Do you have a link? The one I provided the beginning of in the opening post discusses the brain as always active, always ready to respond when needed. Did the study rule out the possibility that the brain heard or saw the fly and was reacting to that, only appearing to have pre-cognition?



Another argument against would be the proven influence of will or willful imagination onto the reality of the body. There had been experiments where a person was touched briefly by a cold spoon and was made to believe it was hot. The blister developed rapidly...

That demonstrates that you can fool the brain/mind and cause it to create a blister when it needn't. But crediting that to the will or willful imagination jumps to what seems to me an unsupported conclusion. And may in fact be evidence of the opposite.

If the implication is that the subject willfully caused the blister, why did the brain/mind need the stimulation of the spoon it thought was hot to trigger creation of the blister? If we know the brain can cause a blister to form then why can't we all cause the creation of blisters at will by just directing the brain to do so? Why is an external stimulus needed to do that?

Ty
5th January 2011, 04:47
Hi Brad,


This is a thread I want to be active in, yet my problem is not one of comprehension it is one of diversity. How many points are on the surface of a sphere sort of thing. So, please excuse my country bumpkin simplicity.
In recent years I have often heard it incorrectly expressed that shaman shape changing is the person trying to take on the caricaturist of various animals and as such believing they are that animal. Yet in reality it is a process of transferring the consciousnesses to an already existing animal. An integrating with the animal on a partial or complete level. This speaks a couple things to me, the body is really a shell or more likely in my mind a separate animal we are in a symbiotic relationship with. Which would play to your free will question on how you define the self. If you define the self as the animal you live within, then free will is in question. If you define it as what is living within the body then it is much more open.
The question becomes difficult due to the extent of our integration with the animal we live in. When they are looked at as two completely separate things it fits very nicely, opening up an abundance or possibility's .

BTW: I lean more toward #3 in that we all knowingly and unknowingly take part in creation every day. Yet rather then just the I existing everything conceivable exists or can exist.

Brad

I haven't decided yet if I'm primarily a biological creature or an energy/spiritual being. Still wrestling with that. I was a lot more open to possibilities when I was younger. Not sure if I'm getting more practical as I age or just less flexible.

My main problem with #3 is resolving the uniformity of the "reality" that occurs outside of the frame we occupy. When does the creation start/stop? If everyone is contributing to it, where does the organization and continuity come from?

Ty
5th January 2011, 05:05
Hi Ba-ba-Ra,


What is consciousness! .... I've been playing with this for a long time. (Doesn't necessarily mean I've learned a lot - I could just be a slow learner- or I've found this is a better way to amuse myself than TV!)

I've been contemplating this for a long time too. I've had one experience that exposed the oneness of the universe to me. It was a long time ago and under the influence of a mind-altering substance so not sure if I was seeing things more the way they are or less.


First let me clarify: I don't think the dream state is "like" the awake state. It seems that in each state of consciousness we have different abilities.

For example: The difference between regular dream state and lucid dream state is that in lucid dream state you are observing what's going on in the dream as well as participating, so at some level you are in a sort of split consciousness - the You watching the dream and the You involved in the dream. Some people in the lucid dream state have learned to be able to allow the You watching, change things that are happening to the You partaking.

I'm a very deep sleeper and in the past 10 years or so have probably remembered only a dozen or so dreams. Before that I did occassionally have lucid dreams and would take off and fly like Superman. It was great. Carols Castenada (The Sorcerer's Apprentice.... etc) suggests focusing on your hand when in the dream state as a trigger to alert you that you're dreaming so you can then take control of it. I think I was able to do that once or twice but not in many years.


There are many documented cases of split-personalities. But to me the important thing is the physical attributes each personality has. For example: Let's give the main personality a name so it's easier to follow - Linda. Linda in one personality needs glasses - in another she doesn't. What? How is Linda doing this. In another personality Linda is allergic to peanut butter which gives her a violent reaction requiring medical attention. Yet in her other personalties she can eat peanut butter without a problem. What? How is this happening. Many documented cases of these types of behavior. Mind is incredibly powerful - that's why placebos work. But then why don't they work consistently for everyone? Again mind( or consciousness). (For clarification: I will always use mind & consciousness as the same. Brain is very different.)

I hadn't heard of the split-personality cases you mentioned. The questoin that reinforces for me is, are the personalities driving the brain to not require glasses etc or are the personalities manifest from the brain/mind along with the physical differences in the personalities?


I believe the more we probe this subject is our best chance for learning how we create so that we can learn to do it at a conscious level and thereby create what we really want. However, there has to be great honesty here and by that I mean with ourselves. Because some of us parrot the things we think we're supposed to say, but they are not what we really want. Many want to keep sparing - they enjoy the exercise and that is all right. Not to judge but to recognize.

I'll just leave it there for now - otherwise this could be a book!!!!!! But hopefully some food for thought and discussion.

At any rate I do look forward to exploring these topics with you and others and see where it leads.

gryphynsclaw
5th January 2011, 15:36
Hi Brad,



I haven't decided yet if I'm primarily a biological creature or an energy/spiritual being. Still wrestling with that. I was a lot more open to possibilities when I was younger. Not sure if I'm getting more practical as I age or just less flexible.

My main problem with #3 is resolving the uniformity of the "reality" that occurs outside of the frame we occupy. When does the creation start/stop? If everyone is contributing to it, where does the organization and continuity come from?

Hi Ty,

The reason I started with that rather then the stages of awareness, is that it shows at least a limited amount of location or movement of the consciousness. There is a number of phenomena events that are explainable without absolute faith or advanced physics with the simple notion that the "who we are" is separate from the body. Animals are not the only things a trained person can inhabit if they wish, other humans are also not that difficult in many cases they are easier then what we think of as animals. Ba-ba-Ra's split personalities I contend may actually be examples of 2 or more beings within one body. At what stage the other came in and the circumstances around it may account for no need of glasses.

At the age of 16 I had a spontaneous experience of seeing an event from 3 perspectives (physical locations) at the same time. There was no drugs involved. But, here is the interesting part. I was able to see the 3 me's and the triangle of energy that connected all 3. Little or no focus was needed to switch for views. Then it presented itself to me that I did not need the full perspective of any corner or me, but was able to see the events going on from any location along the triangle. In my mind that was a case where my consciousness set up a perimeter allowing the observation to be as full as possible. The body being the anchor point of this event. Yet, in other cases where the consciousness projects or more fully integrates with an animal or person, consciousness can be (not always) more integrated with the target subject (got tired of animal or person. ;) ) To the point of either fully losing awareness of your body or your body's surroundings. There is enough real world validation to support and validate these statements, even if there is little or no public documents to do the same.

Maybe #3 is as simple as critical mass of the majority belief. When a % of the current population believes something it becomes real to all. For the world view maybe it is not just the human population that needs to believe.. I don't know, but the 100th monkey showed us something, a bit of truth? or maybe it was all designed to get us to think? But, not willing to give up on the free will concept yet so am going with a bit of truth.

Brad

Ba-ba-Ra
5th January 2011, 18:19
Ba-ba-Ra's split personalities I contend may actually be examples of 2 or more beings within one body. At what stage the other came in and the circumstances around it may account for no need of glasses.


I have contemplated this explanation myself and believe it could be a possibility. In that case would you then agree that the disabilities involved are not of the body, but of the consciousness. Keeping with that thought, then, to heal the body mustn't one heal the consciousness or belief system?

Brad, I found your spontaneous experience at 16 interesting as I have had a similar experience, which happened in awake consciousness Also an experience of seeing an event and then experiencing it 3 more times, each time from a different perspective of 3 different individuals involved in the event. (Rather like the movie Roshoman). This happened in lucid dream consciousness.

So, regarding the spontaneous event, do you believe your (will call it) higher consciousness did this or do you believe (it was done to you) or any other options you'd care to share.

Regarding #3 I believe critical mass plays a huge part, but I also believe an individual can somehow break through on their own (as with the guy that built the Coral Castle or Tesla), but they are wise enough to not share their knowledge as they realize it would be like giving a 3-year old a loaded gun and expecting something good to come of it. Barbara

Ba-ba-Ra
5th January 2011, 18:42
I haven't decided yet if I'm primarily a biological creature or an energy/spiritual being. Still wrestling with that. I was a lot more open to possibilities when I was younger. Not sure if I'm getting more practical as I age or just less flexible.

My main problem with #3 is resolving the uniformity of the "reality" that occurs outside of the frame we occupy. When does the creation start/stop? If everyone is contributing to it, where does the organization and continuity come from?

Ty, this tread is quite complicated as each part could be a thread in itself, but to me it's even more complicated when I hear you say you haven't decided if you're primarily biological or energy/spiritual. This surprised me - so if that's the case for you, I'm assuming that could be true of others participating here - adds another spin on it. I would say we all are both biological & energy beings and we become primarily whichever one we focus on more.

Think of the time spent on the body: feeding it, keeping it warm, cool, clean, entertained. And we're working to provide all the before mentioned for what? The body. If we think of the body as the earthly vehicle for the soul, then yes, we have to keep it in good working order, but I would say we've become obsessive about it. How much time does the average person spend connecting to the spirit. We don't have to meditate or go into a cave to do this. Just have an awareness. We talk to our dogs - how often to our spirits?

As for #3: Does it have to be one or the other? Is it possible that it's part of more than one listed?

gryphynsclaw
6th January 2011, 01:56
Ba-ba-Ra,
In my understanding or more correctly belief, the symbiotic relationship is what makes the distinction between body and spirit the tough one. But the consciousness seems to have the driver seat in many aspects. So, if the consciousness believed it needed glasses to see then the body it occupied would need glasses regardless of the condition of the body. What is interesting is the degree that it is all intertwined, we think if we do not eat or drink the body will die, yet most believe that the soul/spirit or what ever the correct word is will go on to another plain, heaven, another planet what ever. So, we know the distinction yet for some reason doubt the distinction during life.

The spontaneous experience was just that, I was fully aware, actually in a class at school, but I never believed it was caused by anything other then a mental reaction. In the roughly 40 years sense that experience I have experimented with various mental exercises and have found it duplicatable as well as other events.

giving a 3-year old a loaded gun LOL I received a rifle for my 3rd birthday.... seriously

Brad

Deega
6th January 2011, 03:14
Great Tread Ty, and what a challenge...!,

I see two different discovery paths, the first one that many of you have developed (very interesting) is in light of science. And the second less known path, is the spiritual, the emotional, or combinaison.

On the science side, here is a link (Wired - Brain Scanners Can See Your Decisions Before You Make Them) (http://www.wired.com/science/discoveries/news/2008/04/mind_decision) that would confirmed Bashi post that the brain make decision before one consciously make that decision.

Seem paradoxal...!, but the brain is seeded with the divine spirit, and science has a long way to go to know the mechanic (hope the word doesn't undergrade the spirit aspect) of the brain.

"Free will is an illusion", Wired Scienc (http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2008/04/is-free-will-an/)e has an article on the subject, and, it seems that our brain is swifter by 7 seconds in decision making. How interesting...!, it changes my overall perception on freewill if this study is conclusive.

All my blessings.

Deega

Ty
6th January 2011, 04:08
I'm sure the 3 options I listed aren't the only ones, just the ones I was wrestling with at the time. I've seen reference elsewhere in the forums to us (and I assume all matter) being manifestations of a single source of energy.

As to being a biological vs energy/spirit entity, what I was trying to say is I'm not sure which is in control. I have no doubt I am both. I'm just not sure what role the spirit plays. Is it a factor in my day to day decisions and the source of free will or not? Is it something I was born with, the result of the "white noise/dark energy" 24/7 brain activity, part of a universal energy field or something else? Is it even possible to know one way or the other?

I'm sure different people believe different things. Beyond a strong conviction that there is more to this life/reality than meets the eye ,I don't know what I believe about the nature of it all.

Ty
6th January 2011, 04:46
Hi Deega.

Interesting articles. They do make free will seem more a function of the subconscious sorting through accumulated memories and beliefs than something we have conscious control over. I also like the analogy that reason is used vs free will. I suppose our brains are being programmed by us as part of our learning so the "reason" applied is "ours." Then again I may be falling into the illusion that we control the learning. I like the end of the "Brain Scanner..." article:


"It's not like you're a machine. Your brain activity is the physiological substance in which your personality and wishes and desires operate," he said.

The unease people feel at the potential unreality of free will, said National Institutes of Health neuroscientist Mark Hallett, originates in a misconception of self as separate from the brain.

"That's the same notion as the mind being separate from the body -- and I don't think anyone really believes that," said Hallett. "A different way of thinking about it is that your consciousness is only aware of some of the things your brain is doing."

Hallett doubts that free will exists as a separate, independent force.

"If it is, we haven't put our finger on it," he said. "But we're happy to keep looking."


Though I'm sure there are plenty who believe that mind is separate from body. Not sure where I am on that concept either.

Thanks for posting,
Ty

trenairio
6th January 2011, 07:21
A person who has not undergone spiritual refinement does not have so much free will, as you said it is because of the physical conditioning that influences many if not most actions of the ordinary human. But does total free will exist at more pure levels of consciousness?

Deega
6th January 2011, 17:35
Hi Ty,

What is consciousness?, I share an article in the "Big Think" Web (http://bigthink.com/ideas/22979) site from the author Daniel C. Bennett (http://bigthink.com/danieldennett), philosophy professor at Tuft University. He says of consciousness: "On a base level, consciousness is the fact of being awake and processing information" and "But being conscious is also a neurological phenomenon, and it is part of what allows us to exist and understand ourselves in the world".

At the neurological level, Dr. Antonio Damasio (http://bigthink.com/antoniodamasio) says, being conscious is a "special quality of mind" that permits us to know both that we exist and that the things around us exist".

So, in reading, listening to these people, I understand that we are not well advance in this field. And it's a research area that will take philosophers, neurologists, and other fields sometimes, to get at the bottom of this great énoncé (consciousness).

But I feel excited that it challenges our way of seeing this phenomenon, that it's more than we have been led to believe in our Educational System.

Amazing future ahead...!

All my blessings.

Deega