Does the Catholic Church get a bum rap

[plumr2007]

I know what most of you are thinking about hypocrites and pedophilia and you are absolutely right. But a church really is about the people in it. The nun who wrote to Bill got me thinking of my childhood and the church I grew up in. From kindergarten to eight grade I was educated by Dominican nuns. These women were sharp always warning us about the Jesuits and the assassination of John Paul 1 by the masonic cardinals in the Vatican. When I got to high school I went to a prep school in New Rochelle run by the Salesians. We had very open discussions about many things . They told us that the Church was going to make a very big thing about homosexuality . then in religion class one priest showed us a book that had all the sacraments and rites of the church and right there in the book was a Mass for same sex marriage. He told us to keep an open mind and not be bulls***ed by any one espousing the opposite opinion.
My dad was a Knight of Columbus. He was a fifth degree ( yes there is a fifth ) and also a member of a sect in the K of C called the Alhambra. They wore fezzes and were only 10,000 ever in the world. My dad was very pious but never stepped foot in a church. He would berate a man for selling X-Mas trees instead of Christmas trees but thought the church was full of it. What I'm saying I guess is that many individuals make up a church and some may be more enlightened than others. Anyway what do you all think.

[mrmalco]

I agree that the current perception, though justifiable because of the Church's faults, also misses a truth that millions are reminded of their own souls by the RC Church (and indeed perhaps all the other religions). I smile when you say the Dominican nuns warned against the Jesuits. The two orders have had a huge rivalry since ever. And one needs to recall that the Dominicans were the mainstay of the Inquisition so they don't have a clean bill of health. But who does? There seems to be no high ground left on planet earth. I still have a sneaking gratitude to the Church - somehow or other it (or at least a few good people - some of them priests) managed to convey to me a sense of the Christ of the Sermon on the Mount.

[plumr2007]

mrmalco , what you say is correct that the Dominicans were put in charge of the Albigensian Inquisition of the Cathars. The Cathars referred to themselves as "the Good Christians" you have to wonder if their secret teachings perhaps fell on their captors the way it is said that the Templars absorbed the mysterys of the Cabala. The Cathars thrived secretly, it is said, for centuries after the Inquisition and continued to spread even into Italy. My maternal grandmother taught me a prayer to ward off the evil eye that could only be taught on Christmas Eve to be effective. She said it was passed on in my family from the " heretics" which is what the Cathars were known as. The Dominicans were given the authority over the Inquisition because the Franciscans were considered too soft on the Cathars. St Augustin was a Cathar who it is rumored became Catholic to avoid torture and death. Maybe the duality of the Church today dates back to the influence of the " heretics ".

[witchy1]

Does the Catholic Church get a bum rap
People can do as much, if not more for humanity without having to be under the guise of organised religion.

They have been caught raping and pillaging, hidding secrets that belong to humanity, stealing from those who cannot afford it, giving false truths and false hopes. etc etc etc, Does one bad apple ruin the whole bunch - those that stay silent when they know what is really going on are just a guilty! They beleive they are above the law.......... I wont go on and on- IMHO They are the creators of their own demise

[Celine]

To answer the op's question.. IMHO..No..

The peoples heart is not represented by the church...

The buildings...the halls...they HOUSE the spirit of the people...

Some individuals are amazingly loving..caring...

Some individuals are amazingly cruel ...angry..

The Church is protecting criminals who have targeted the weakest in our society..


Why do some still want to protect the churches reputation?/

i say they should be BRANDED with the Scarlett letter..and face us with honest hearts.

[Richard]

Live by the sword...

[Icecold]

This is like asking the question does the SS get a bum rap?

For thousands of years the Catholic church has been involved in crimes against humanity. Genocide has been its keynote activity. It is the Roman empire.
No compromise. As is said "Know them by their fruits".

If the masses of humanity that call themselves 'catholic' were truly the spiritual beiings that they claim to be, they would in all honesty abandon that institution and leave it to rot away.
They would seek a spiritual life elsewhere in truth, yet even with the massive evidence of institutionalised evil, they remain.

If one child, just one was made to suffer, it would be enough to turn away from this evil. No, even after the entire murderous history, including the Nazis who are a part of it,
have they the members of this church, turned away. To me that speaks loudly of the nature of the hearts of its members.

No compromise, no excuses, no forgetting.

[Celine]

We should always be disposed to believe that which appears white is really black, if the hierarchy of the Church so decides.
— St. Ignatus Loyola, in Spiritual Exercises

[White Rabbit]

I believe that if you were subjected to the very negative parts of any 'organized religion' that would taint your view of any and all of them. I am all for spirituality, seeking, searching and connecting...

[Celine]

Religion is about "God"..

Spirituality is about Man..

[SKAWF]

no it doesnt get a bum rap. the whole thing is founded upon evil. nothing good comes from it, and everyone, who i've ever spoke to, who said they were a catholic, displayed the remnents of a traumatic experience.
it claims to be a spiritual organisation, but it practices widespread abuse defiling children and destroying innocence. it controls through fear and has been doing so for nearly a thousand years. during which time it's destroyed much of the mayan records, while plundering the treasures, not to mention the spanish inquisition. its an abomination.
its not widely known that if you check to see who actually owns much of america, you'll find its the virginia company or corperation (cant remember which) and that is owned by britain. if you look to see who owns britain, you'll find its the roman catholic church which is why they get away with mass Peadophilia. there was a letter from the pope to priests which said something like 'police investigations should be hindered by a wall of silence. anyone not following this rule will be excommunicated', (when i looked at the title of this thread, i thought it was a sick joke). the organisation shoud be consigned to a bleak period in our history. imo.

[Celine]

There is no heart.. in the Vatican

none..empty..cold..dead.


all i feel is power struggles..sexual tension... buried repressed thoughts..

but no heart

[SKAWF]

Does the Catholic Church get a bum rap

I know what most of you are thinking about hypocrites and pedophilia and you are absolutely right

nuff said

[Celine]

Look at them.

http://blogs.reuters.com/faithworld//files/2010/12/cr_mega_738_abuse-victims.jpg

[Icecold]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3HE7mWQOzU

[modwiz]

I know what most of you are thinking about hypocrites and pedophilia and you are absolutely right. But a church really is about the people in it. The nun who wrote to Bill got me thinking of my childhood and the church I grew up in. From kindergarten to eight grade I was educated by Dominican nuns. These women were sharp always warning us about the Jesuits and the assassination of John Paul 1 by the masonic cardinals in the Vatican. When I got to high school I went to a prep school in New Rochelle run by the Salesians. We had very open discussions about many things . They told us that the Church was going to make a very big thing about homosexuality . then in religion class one priest showed us a book that had all the sacraments and rites of the church and right there in the book was a Mass for same sex marriage. He told us to keep an open mind and not be bulls***ed by any one espousing the opposite opinion.
My dad was a Knight of Columbus. He was a fifth degree ( yes there is a fifth ) and also a member of a sect in the K of C called the Alhambra. They wore fezzes and were only 10,000 ever in the world. My dad was very pious but never stepped foot in a church. He would berate a man for selling X-Mas trees instead of Christmas trees but thought the church was full of it. What I'm saying I guess is that many individuals make up a church and some may be more enlightened than others. Anyway what do you all think.

I think Catholics who are good, solid men like your father are some of the babies who get tossed out with the fetid, corpse-ridden bathwater of the Church. That is not fair and they can end up with an undeserved bum rap for certain.

Modwiz

[Chuck]

Hello plumr2007

I think the Catholic Church hasn't been rapped enough. ha! They have a lot to answer for but so does every other institution that have abused their power.

Having said that. I lived with a priest and several Brothers for 3 years while attending university. Many lofty moments were shared, sometimes over a bottle of scotch. I can tell you, there are many good people working in the church. Many were inspired to serve God and spent many years getting to know God. Some are the most giving people you'll ever meet. Yes, they have their doubts and weaknesses like everyone else.

It is the institution, upheld by power of the ego (not the almighty), that needs to be spanked.

[kevlor]

i had enough of the catholic church (born and bred), once i had a chance to read tony bushbys books (himself a catholic).

i now understand how i have been resqued from the religious clutches of all modern persuasions. free and at peace ... kev

[RedeZra]

its not widely known that if you check to see who actually owns much of america, you'll find its the virginia company or corperation (cant remember which) and that is owned by britain. if you look to see who owns britain, you'll find its the roman catholic church which is why they get away with mass Peadophilia

Actually the Crown owns Britain

the Church of England is not Roman Catholic but Anglican and the British monarch has the constitutional title of Supreme Governor of the Church of England while the Archbishop of Canterbury is the senior bishop and principal leader of the Church of England

Already in the Act of Settlement (1701) did the english parliament decide that those who were Roman Catholic and those who married a Roman Catholic were barred from ascending the throne "for ever"


the Vatican has been infiltrated by unbelievers with the purpose to subvert and pervert it and the same has happened with the State and it's institutions


It's the same Hidden Hand that pulls the strings of the Pope and the President

[Icecold]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBHqGHxBJRs&NR=1&feature=fvwp

[Fury Ra]

Religion is about "God"..

Spirituality is about Man..


hmmm.....I've never heard it put like that before, I'm going to step out on a shaky branch here and say WELL SAID PUT !!!

[Richard]

Religion is about "God"..

Spirituality is about Man..

that's Backwards imo

Religion is about man, power and control

Spirituality is about God, love and respecting creation

[Atticus]

The bird may fly in any direction,do not condemn all the feathers.

The majority of the church are good kind people,they have helped me to hide on many occasions,when my so called friends were gone.

[Fury Ra]

Does the Catholic Church get a bum rap?

it all go's back to the typical saying, one bad apple ruins em all. One bad cop makes all cops look bad yeah dig. Like anything else the Church, the Catholic church specifically here, if originally meant for good etc....has obviously been hi jacked, kind of like money. Was a good idea in the beginning, but now it's just kind of like...."really ? "

[bodixa]

I think the fundamental thing wrong with Catholic Christianity is that it starts from the premise that people are bad. You're born bad, you're a sinner. It's a no brainer. Join and be saved or perish in Hell for all eternity.

I saw a video of Alex Collier talking about this - he gets really passionate about it. I wish I could find it and post it here. If anyone knows the one I mean, help!

I've sort of come to the conclusion tho, that no one is really to blame anymore. Most people involved in it are just fast asleep and following some half cocked, skewed and politicised interpretation of the life of Christ. It's arrogance, control, power, suppression, fear.

But with noone out there to tell the alternative truth in a solid, credible way that works and cuts through the fear, people will get lost and clutch on to whatever works at the time. So - Bum Rap - yes, I think so, for the ordinary people in it.

[Fury Ra]

that's Backwards imo

Religion is about man, power and control

Spirituality is about God, love and respecting creation



What is this "imo" mean? I keep seeing that..but anyways, for the sake of argument this is the problem whith philosophical jargon, religion , spirituality, these are just words. I see what your saying though as when someone asks me, "are you religious?" in my mind I'm like, " hell no ! " however I have definately convinced myself I'm an energy temporarily residing in a physical body thats for sure.

I guess why I liked this that it was put:

Religion is about God : because Religion is used to manipulate man into fearing a God that is judge, jury and executioner.

Spirituality is about Man: because man has the potential to become like a God when unlocking true potential.

once again though philisophical jargon mate! :cool:

[jackovesk]

I know what most of you are thinking about hypocrites and pedophilia and you are absolutely right. But a church really is about the people in it. The nun who wrote to Bill got me thinking of my childhood and the church I grew up in. From kindergarten to eight grade I was educated by Dominican nuns. These women were sharp always warning us about the Jesuits and the assassination of John Paul 1 by the masonic cardinals in the Vatican. When I got to high school I went to a prep school in New Rochelle run by the Salesians. We had very open discussions about many things . They told us that the Church was going to make a very big thing about homosexuality . then in religion class one priest showed us a book that had all the sacraments and rites of the church and right there in the book was a Mass for same sex marriage. He told us to keep an open mind and not be bulls***ed by any one espousing the opposite opinion.
My dad was a Knight of Columbus. He was a fifth degree ( yes there is a fifth ) and also a member of a sect in the K of C called the Alhambra. They wore fezzes and were only 10,000 ever in the world. My dad was very pious but never stepped foot in a church. He would berate a man for selling X-Mas trees instead of Christmas trees but thought the church was full of it. What I'm saying I guess is that many individuals make up a church and some may be more enlightened than others. Anyway what do you all think.

You asked me what I think?

plumr2007 Quote: "But a church really is about the people in it."

If the people "IN IT" had any idea whatsoever of what the church has done to Humanity throughout the ages?

Sure there are good people within the church, but their Leadership is questionable at the best of times!

[Celine]

that's Backwards imo

Religion is about man, power and control

Spirituality is about God, love and respecting creation

Thank you for correcting that babe.

Backwards or forwards... sometimes i am not sure which side of the mirror i am on

* kisses your cheek *

[buffski]

might I also humbly suggest that spirituality can at times, depending on the person, weave itself around dogma thus itself becoming a form of religion? :)

[buffski]

There is no heart.. in the Vatican

none..empty..cold..dead.


all i feel is power struggles..sexual tension... buried repressed thoughts..

but no heart

Indeed! In the Vatican as a whole, but respect to those with heart who cling on in there with all their might, to keep a window open....now that must be one HELL of a mission.

[Binaryspellbook]

For my part, I don't care for any of the mainstream religions. You don't have to be religious to be a thoroughly decent human being. I think my fellow Scot Billy Connolly said it best. Take note however, if you are easily offended, an anal retentive or an Islamic fundamentalist nutter. This video clip may not be suitable for you.

Jamie.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMx8QvhULIs

[plumr2007]

jackovesk any group , religious or not , runs the same risk of being co-opted or highjacked by a sect with an agenda. I am a past president on the Rotary Club and quit after I found out about its involvement with the United Nations and the polio vaccines. My children were brought up in the Methodist Church because my ex is Methodist and after hearing stories from my youngest son ( who is gay ) I can tell you they are plaqued with the same problems albeit on a smaller scale. But the people who make up the Catholic church are no more prone to evil than the members of my Rotary club. They were by and large people who thought they were doing good but were at the same time being led by evil hierarchies.
As for this pope I'm with you all the way. This man is the co-founder of the Bilderbergers and a known Nazi sympathizer during the war.Pure evil. Malachi Martins book A Windswept House I believe was prophetic of this man's rule.
St. Malachi's prophecies of the lineage of popes says he is the second to last before the end of the Church.
However that all being said I believe that the premise of the Church's original ( pre Nicean ) tenets to be based on a spiritual life and worthy of emulating. You just have to look past the false facade presented to the world today by these co-opters.

[bodixa]

The bird may fly in any direction,do not condemn all the feathers.

The majority of the church are good kind people,they have helped me to hide on many occasions,when my so called friends were gone.

when did you sneak that one in? didn't see that. Must be going senile..:cool:

[Caren]

"The majority of the church are good kind people, they have helped me..."
Thank you Atticus - true words spoken from a very wise man. I also like "Walk a mile in my shoes" and "The golden rule" as well just for starters.
Please.. we need to stop JUDGING and CONDEMNING others and work on our COMPASSION and FORGIVENESS!!! (I am in no way singling out any one person here.) "I love you" - pass it on.. :)
It's certainly OK to have our opinions and express them.. but wouldn't it be more fruitful to spend our valuable time thinking about ways we can help our beautiful Mother earth to heal?.. There is Never enough LOVE being shared.. I respectfully suggest we focus our energies on that please. The rest will fall into place.
"Give Peace A Chance" Sir John
Love and Peace to all. :love:

[aikya]

I will have a look and see if I can find some links to information which would confirm this, but there seems to be a widespread misunderstanding that 'The Crown' means 'the Queen' or 'the British Crown', when in fact it means the 'Crown Temple' based in the City of London, which is private and separate from the British Crown, and which I believe is ultimately under the control of the Vatican.

[aikya]

It seems to me there are good people in the Roman Catholic church DESPITE the Vatican, not because of it. To me the Vatican represents the dark, corrupt, institutional side and is more about suppressing spiritual evolution and retaining supremet control for nefarious ends.

[Steven]

There are two distinctive churches.

One that stands in materiality, institutional, makes the laws (dogma) and rules over the flock.

The other is spiritual, manifest everywhere, any time, and comes from the heart. It is truly 'universal', knows no boundary of religion, culture or gender.

The two fights all of the time. See the life of Oscar Romero : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%93scar_Romero

He knew quite well both of them and ultimatly chose the second, at the cost of his Life.

Namaste, Steven

[aikya]

imo = in my opinion. :)

[cowens66]

The bird may fly in any direction,do not condemn all the feathers.

The majority of the church are good kind people,they have helped me to hide on many occasions,when my so called friends were gone.


I have very strong feelings on this but will try to keep it cool. I think the majority, or just some, of the people in the church are good kind people, but the church and every religion was set up and intended, from the beginning, as a means of control and brain washing.IMO. I have met plenty of people in the RCC who could not, by any stretch of the imagination, be considered good or kind but have been lead to believe that they are justified in their malice because they are "right". Having said all that, I too have met the rare catholic, like the nun who wrote to Bill, who is beginning to awaken and is genuinely kind and loving. Btw I was raised RC in a large Portuguese, Italian, American family. :)

[bodixa]

What is religion anyway? Religion is people organising themselves around a set of common beliefs, practices, purpose and history. Like any other structure in society, in religion, the richest, best educated, better communicators and strongest, maybe even wisest, personalities are in the driving seat. People need to connect around a common purpose and need to be led. Even the Elite!!

People organise themselves. It's what we do as part of our deepest insecurities. QED

[cowens66]

George Carlin on Religion. lol warning- Strong Language.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeSSwKffj9o

[jackovesk]

St. Malachi's prophecies of the lineage of popes says he is the second to last before the end of the Church.
However that all being said I believe that the premise of the Church's original ( pre Nicean ) tenets to be based on a spiritual life and worthy of emulating. You just have to look past the false facade presented to the world today by these co-opters.

St. Malachi's prophecies were wrong on 1 front.

Pope Benedict the Pirate will be the last Pope...Why? Because the Catholic Church is finshed as you said yourself.

When good honest people stop believing in their Church leaders, there is no return!

The unfortunate thing about this is, I hope they can start believing in theselves again, the way God intended before the Church stuck their noses in it!

Good Luck to you and your family plumr2007, an remeber true spirituality & strength has always come from within!

[InTheBackground]

It isn't religion or dogma that is the problem. The problem is that so many people seem to need to be led, to be told what to do, what to think, what to believe, rather than searching those things out for themselves. Religion is just one more thing that a few people originally endorsed and that a whole lot of people have since latched onto with gratitude, with relief. "Help me, lead me, tell me what to do and I will follow you to the end of my days..." ?? The same kind of thing comes about as relates to our government. People have lost so much of their ability to discern. To even begin to question.

As far as words to live by, I have always been fond of the Golden Rule, and practice it as best I can. It is enough for me.

[bodixa]

Well, up until relatively recently, most people were illiterate and unable to travel. So they would have very little awareness outside of their own immediate community. Of course more people are asking now - because they can. If you are raised in the structure of the Parish or the local community - your conciousness grows within those boundaries. There are still generations of people out there without access to information or travel - why would they know any different? Why would they need to? Is it a better place to be to be on a journey of enlightenment or is ignorance bliss? And can anybody really judge it as ignorance?

I don't ever feel I can comment on any one person's journey or awareness - that is theirs to own, whatever world they were born into.

I need help and I need to be led. Don't leave me in this mess alone! Tell me what you know and show me your stuff!!

[greybeard]

"The majority of the church are good kind people, they have helped me..."
Thank you Atticus - true words spoken from a very wise man. I also like "Walk a mile in my shoes" and "The golden rule" as well just for starters.
Please.. we need to stop JUDGING and CONDEMNING others and work on our COMPASSION and FORGIVENESS!!! (I am in no way singling out any one person here.) "I love you" - pass it on.. :)
It's certainly OK to have our opinions and express them.. but wouldn't it be more fruitful to spend our valuable time thinking about ways we can help our beautiful Mother earth to heal?.. There is Never enough LOVE being shared.. I respectfully suggest we focus our energies on that please. The rest will fall into place.
"Give Peace A Chance" Sir John
Love and Peace to all. :love:

I agree with Caren and Atticus
In spite of everything the church kept the teaching of Christ alive for 2010 years.
It is human nture to focus on what is wrong it would seem.
The good is so common place it is almost not noticed.
While I am not of any religion I used to drink with a Priest and he was a fascinating and caring man.
In any organization you will find a certain % who are selfish out for themselves no matter the cost to others.
Christ on the Cross "God forgive them for they know not what they do" Spiritually ignorant, they did not know any better.
The first two Commandments say it all.
Love God = Search ye first the Kingdom of Heaven = Heaven lies within = you true Divine Self.
Love thy fellow man = your very own true Self = Only One Consciousness.

So if we claim to be on a spiritual path we have to look for the good in all without exception.
It may be difficult to find but it is within all.

Love all serve all.
Chris

[DawgBone]

We humans crave certainty. We want to understand our lives. We want to understand the world and our place in it. We want answers. We want answers even if they are the wrong answers.

Religions are in the business (literally) of supplying answers. They offer complete explanations. They provide a complete cosmology and world view. No thinking is required. Follow their beliefs, adhere to their dogmas, and all will be well. Have faith, because reason is a whore.

But to be truly alive requires a tolerance of uncertainty. As soon as you are secure in your knowledge and beliefs, you stop perceiving the world as it really is. You project you beliefs and filter reality to fit. This is a sorry state of affairs.


Religions are drug pushers. They sell certainty. Just say NO.

[conk]

The church is not the people in it, but the ideas and influence coming out of it. These ideas, lies really, have had tremendous negative impact on all of us. Granted, most people in church are good people that have had their minds co-opted by the big lie.

No! We are not born of dust (dirt), but are an expression of wonder made of light. HUGE difference! No! We are not born sinners. We come into this world as magnificent beings that have had our potential stolen from us.

Does the church get a bum rap. NO! It's not rapped enough. And now we find evidence of the Vatican directing the subordinates NOT to disclose child abuses. Incomprehensible and totally unacceptable. Wear a fancy dress and a big goofy hat, and get a free ride on the kiddie coaster. Sickening. Vile, putrid scum is what they are.

[barefoot]

My heart goes out to all the kind, giving of self people
who are trapped within the walls of the CC, or, any
other religious/institutional teachings.

I was there.

The FEARS of eternal hell for my "sins". This is akin
to Santa Claus "Be good or you won't get any presents"
So many mind-twisting, FEAR-producing doctrines, held
up to the enslaved minds as "Truth".

How is one who is enslaved going to break free? There
are no guaranteed methods.

For me (emotional change) ;) post-natal depression. All
hell broke loose within my mind. A mental explosion!!
I was free to think any thought I wished (which was forbidden
in my religious training). Freedom, sweet freedom.

And now the fun begins. What is true? Where does one
find the Truth? Why am I here?

Perhaps it would be better to send our loving energies
to these enslaved people rather than our angry energies to the ones
that enslave them, empowering those rascals more.

Many Blessings

Bobbe

Part of the reason I came here was to taste chocolate. mmm
To feel a warm spring rain, to smell the earth as she receives
it. To see a sunset, a sunrise, snow falling, ripples in a stream,
waves upon a shore,,,,, Things that I could not experience as a
spirit, or soul.

[Carmody]

To me, the world is full of people, some good, some bad.

To me, politics is full of people. Some good, some bad.

To me, the church is full of people. Some good, some bad.

The bad people are learning lessons about the value of not being bad, and the good are helping them.

The next time you are born, the roles may just be - reversed.

Tomorrows victim -can be today's perpetrator.

And to day's victim..can..be...tomorrow's...

So don't speak to harshly. :p

[Binaryspellbook]

George Carlin on Religion. lol warning- Strong Language.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeSSwKffj9o

Carlin is a comedy genius. Loved the quote about God definitely having to be a man. That was priceless.

[Icecold]

The bird may fly in any direction,do not condemn all the feathers.

The majority of the church are good kind people,they have helped me to hide on many occasions,when my so called friends were gone.

Atticus is the name of a christian martyr, burned at the stake....among other people.

The church are NOT good kind people....human beings are good kind people. The problem with these human beings is that they think they belong to things called 'churches'. They are fundamentally 'owned'...in both senses of the word.

[East Sun]

It's like everything else in out human existence, there are dedicated martyrs and manipulators and those who lost any idea of they started out to be--the priests who fell. Countless thousands of Catholic Priests and Nuns have given their entire lives to doing what they believed to be right. They can be compared to innocent young soldiers who believe they are patriotic and doing the ultimate for their country only to be blown to pieces or survive when they would be better off to die instantly.
No one can just blame an organization totally. There are the best and the worst. Of course in times like this evil can take over and bad things happen, hopefully to eventually result in a better beginning at a higher level. I grieve for the ones who mean well and suffer. I hope there is a reckoning where all is leveled off. If not it's all for nothing really.

[Icecold]

It's like everything else in out human existence, there are dedicated martyrs and manipulators and those who lost any idea of they started out to be--the priests who fell. Countless thousands of Catholic Priests and Nuns have given their entire lives to doing what they believed to be right. They can be compared to innocent young soldiers who believe they are patriotic and doing the ultimate for their country only to be blown to pieces or survive when they would be better off to die instantly.
No one can just blame an organization totally. There are the best and the worst. Of course in times like this evil can take over and bad things happen, hopefully to eventually result in a better beginning at a higher level. I grieve for the ones who mean well and suffer. I hope there is a reckoning where all is leveled off. If not it's all for nothing really.

That's not the point. OK they were all fooled. The question is WHY are they remaining in a criminal organisation? When you have knowledge you act on it. Their actions or lack of action is the reality, catholics that remain in the organisation are as guilty as the perpetrators by the act of complicity and support.

[Teakai]

I don't think the catholic church gets a big enough bum -rap.

Gospel of Thomas:
39. Jesus said, "The Pharisees and the scholars have taken the keys of knowledge and have hidden them. They have not entered nor have they allowed those who want to enter to do so.

[mrmalco]

Yes the Catholic Church ... Inquisition, torture, Witch Trials, forgery, 'Index', hidden agendas, pedophilia and general guilt-spread ... etc .
Mongolians (Genghis Khan); Chinese (approx 700 years of civil wars, recently Mao - millions dead); Israelites (cf Deuteronomy: massacres in Canaan); Phoenicians - (worship of Moloch - child sacrifice); Aztecs (mass sacrifice); Hurrians, Goths, Vandals - massacre and rapine; Romans (hundreds of years of public butchery); Vikings (murder pillage fire and rape throughout North Europe and British lands; Franks (crusades) Normans (executed the Cathar 'crusade); Protestants (witch hunts 16th, 17th and early 18th centuries bad-as/worse-than than that of Catholic Church); 100 years of religious wars in Europe - million died; 1st world war - millions killed for profit and elite control agendas; colonial massacres in Africa and the East by British, French, Portuguese, Spanish ... and America's founders (estimate 60 million); massacres and murder by oppression by Brits in Australasia; USSR under Stalin (conservative estimate 18 million, mainly deliberately starved to death; Hitler and Nazidom - Jews, Poles, Gypsies, Gays - perhaps 8 million all told; Japan - millions killed in the East; UK - carpet bombing of Dresden, Hamburg and Cologne; USA - atom bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki; genocidal massacres in Serbia, Albania, Croatia; genocidal inter-tribal massacres in emerging African countries; France - Algeria; France and USA Indochina/Vietnam; USA and UK - Iraq .....
... and all the other stuff. These were just off the top of my head.
No high ground.

The greatest hope is the Reconciliation process- tried and tested in Southern Africa. Involves honest admission as step 1. It has taken the human race all these millennia to begin to begin to begin ... how can any of us ask for other than forgiveness for our ancestors, our countries, our religions, our races.

[John Parslow]

Hello all


Atticus
The bird may fly in any direction, do not condemn all the feathers.
The majority of the church are good kind people, they have helped me to hide on many occasions, when my so called friends were gone.



Caren
"The majority of the church are good kind people, they have helped me..."
Thank you Atticus - true words spoken from a very wise man. I also like "Walk a mile in my shoes" and "The golden rule" as well just for starters.
Please.. we need to stop JUDGING and CONDEMNING others and work on our COMPASSION and FORGIVENESS!!! (I am in no way singling out any one person here.) "I love you" - pass it on.. It's certainly OK to have our opinions and express them.. but wouldn't it be more fruitful to spend our valuable time thinking about ways we can help our beautiful Mother earth to heal?.. There is Never enough LOVE being shared.. I respectfully suggest we focus our energies on that please. The rest will fall into place. "Give Peace A Chance" Sir John
Love and Peace to all.



Greybeard
In spite of everything the church kept the teaching of Christ alive for 2010 years.
It is human nature to focus on what is wrong it would seem. The good is so common place it is almost not noticed. While I am not of any religion I used to drink with a Priest and he was a fascinating and caring man. In any organization you will find a certain % who are selfish out for themselves no matter the cost to others. Christ on the Cross "God forgive them for they know not what they do" Spiritually ignorant, they did not know any better. The first two Commandments say it all. Love God = Search ye first the Kingdom of Heaven = Heaven lies within = you true Divine Self. Love thy fellow man = your very own true Self = Only One Consciousness. So if we claim to be on a spiritual path we have to look for the good in all without exception. It may be difficult to find but it is within all.
Love all serve all.


I have a tendency to agree wholeheartedly with all of the above. I am not a ‘religious’ man but have faith in many who are believers. My own father was a lay-preacher in the Baptist church and one could not wish to meet a kinder more gentle man who went out of his way to assist others and I am sure this is the case with the greater majority of people who dedicate their energies; time and money and indeed lives to the service of others - please do not tar all ‘religions’ with the same brush - all are made up from disparate peoples everywhere; some bad; some angelic - just learn to love all races; colours; creeds with the same compassion and the world will be much better for it.

My love and peace to all. JP :cool:

[plumr2007]

That's not the point. OK they were all fooled. The question is WHY are they remaining in a criminal organisation? When you have knowledge you act on it. Their actions or lack of action is the reality, catholics that remain in the organisation are as guilty as the perpetrators by the act of complicity and support.

The best way to change an organization is from within. There are two choices here, either scrap the entire concept of the Church and lose the good as well as the bad or attempt a change from within. As mrmalco pointed out so well in the above post there are no religions or organizations or countries or ideologies that are free from blame . But a change from within will be I think the better result if one maintains the knowledge that the Church teaches. That we all have a soul and it is worth saving. If you get that from the Catholic Church or Buddhism so be it, its better than not having it at all.

[RedeZra]

I will have a look and see if I can find some links to information which would confirm this, but there seems to be a widespread misunderstanding that 'The Crown' means 'the Queen' or 'the British Crown', when in fact it means the 'Crown Temple' based in the City of London, which is private and separate from the British Crown, and which I believe is ultimately under the control of the Vatican.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Crown


The Crown is a corporation sole that in the Commonwealth realms, as well as in any provincial or state sub-divisions thereof, represents the legal embodiment of governance, whether executive, legislative, or judicial.

It evolved naturally first in the United Kingdom as a separation of the literal crown and property of the nation state from the person and personal property of the monarch; a concept which then spread via British colonisation and is now rooted in the legal lexicon of the other 15 independent realms.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Crown


Yes we are governed by materialistic merchants

---




Gospel of Thomas:
39. Jesus said, "The Pharisees and the scholars have taken the keys of knowledge and have hidden them. They have not entered nor have they allowed those who want to enter to do so.

He is talking about Judaism ; )

[Lifesong]

The bird may fly in any direction,do not condemn all the feathers.

The majority of the church are good kind people,they have helped me to hide on many occasions,when my so called friends were gone.


Perhaps enough feathers with a common mind may alter the bird's course.

The alternative community, to me, seems more and more expansive:
The Well: Awakening to Our Place in the Universe Story (http://http://www.sistersofsaintjosephfederation.org/Sabbatical%202011%20Brochure.pdf)
Sisters of Saint Joseph
Springtime Sabbatical
May 9 - June 19, 2011

[Teakai]

He is talking about Judaism ; )

He was talking about the Pharisees and the scholars - and they're still doing it. Different religion, same story.

[Icecold]

The best way to change an organization is from within. There are two choices here, either scrap the entire concept of the Church and lose the good as well as the bad or attempt a change from within. As mrmalco pointed out so well in the above post there are no religions or organizations or countries or ideologies that are free from blame . But a change from within will be I think the better result if one maintains the knowledge that the Church teaches. That we all have a soul and it is worth saving. If you get that from the Catholic Church or Buddhism so be it, its better than not having it at all.


Change an organisation????? Change an organisation?????

That's a joke right? Obviously you didn't read the quote. You want to forgive and forget right? They'll admit their mistakes and turn over a new leaf..... :moony:

...after 2000 years of crime and genocide.. :nono:

What good??????? Haven't you been learning? The whole edifice is built on lies. It's a crock of ****. Let me repeat that in case it didn't sink in....

The whole edifice is built on lies. It's a crock of ****


How do you reformn that? :der:

This isn't a reflection on you or your intellect BTW. You are definitely a good honest person who has, in seeking the betterment of mankind, been led up the garden path by trickery and subterfuge.
That's not a reflection on you, it just goes to show

HOW DEVIOUS THEY ARE! ;)

[plumr2007]

Your passionate responses ( which you don't need to apologize for, I totally understand them ) are the reason I thought of this thread in the first place. But what I am referring to is the fundamental tenets of the teachings of the Church. It didn't start off evil, it was co-opted by the Roman Empire when they saw an opportunity to bolster their flagging empire. They did so at the Nicean conference which took place 430 years after the beginnings of the Church. However it is clear that 30% of the people in the world aren't morons they saw something in this religion that inspired them. When you cut through all the BS the basic tenets are there for those who search them out and that is the reason for this thread. I don't want to throw out the baby with the bath water ,as modwiz put it. I am in no way a practicing Catholic but when questioned I identify myself as such because I recognize that I agree with those basic tenets .
The Catholic Church you rail against has truly done some vile things, but on a personal level the Catholic community does some fine and noble things. For instance: my ex-wife's brother was disowned by his Methodist family because he was gay and was a source of embarrassment to them. Bruce contracted AIDS and required hospitalization but had no insurance. A Catholic hospital admitted him for free and he passed away there in comfort and loving environment. The day before he died he called me and told me he tried to convert to Catholicism but the priest told him it wasn't necessary to do so as a means of thanks; that as a human being he was welcome to stay with them and the next day he passed on holding that priest's hand. My Protestant in-laws never visited him and had to be shamed into attending his funeral for fear that some of their Methodist friends might see them. That caring and soulful approach to life is what I'm talking about.

[cayman]

Catholic or any religion is just a name tag, a concept we need in order to communicate with no other means but languages. But you see, any kind of concept, in essence, it is a division. If we form an organisation under any concept, the division begin, let alone the organisation will become self-interest(that´s what they call ¨Agency Self-Interest Problem¨), years gone by, people will just fight for the face value of the concept with each others,under the name of defending their belief--and that´s how division,mistrust,betray,war get their way.

Babel----that´s the ultimate curse

[Icecold]

My last post was actually light-hearted banter. ;)

I get your drift plumr. But they missed the boat. Its coming into a new age in which the archetypes of christianity will be as useful as tits on a bull. The universe is on the move and there will be new archetypes to which the masses will likely relate. Well, that's my guess. Let's say its highly likely. I believe the church for what its worth, behaved exactly as it was supposed to behave given the time in which it existed. The death throes will last some time. Not so much with a bang but with a whimper. A slow leaking balloon is another apt metaphor. :amen:

LOL @ Cayman

[Lifesong]

I would agree that the edifice is built on lies and must needs be done away with. There is much to be answered for in many, many respects.

The dismantling of the church, however... must be done with care of the followers, with love. People will create new structures to unite in their charity and goodness.

If there is any truth to a law of one or a universal life force, then we who are aware of the breadth, length, and depth of the deception must develop eyes to recognize ourselves in all of the others. For the evil are then fully as much of the same life force as the followers and the aware. For now, at least, punishment of the liars is simply not my provenance.

I can merely stand grateful, humble, and eager to grasp the suggestion we might busy ourselves with a plan for dismantling, and we can save the punishing for when we see who we are when its gone.

JMO & only MO.

In love and peace.

[Billy]

All I do know is that Jesus was never a Catholic or a Christian. He was an Essene and he embraced and was learned in all religions in his time. Pope John Paul even announced in 2008 that Jesus celibrated the Essene Passover. I think we sometimes have to be carefull not to tar everyone with the same brush. There are Catholics that live from the heart and there are Catholics that follow the road to damnation. The Vatican itself has allowed damnation to enter into it's kingdom, and it shall surely fall.

[Mike]

see 'Christopher Hitchens'.

though I do believe in God, I do not believe He/She can be squeezed into this bureauocratic box we call religion. Are there good Catholic people? Of course. But on the whole, I believe it's done more damage than good. Google 'Christopher Hitchens debate'. There's nothing I can say that he can't say better.

[InTheBackground]

Gospel of Thomas:
39. Jesus said, "The Pharisees and the scholars have taken the keys of knowledge and have hidden them. They have not entered nor have they allowed those who want to enter to do so.


This is fascinating, Teakai, and something I've long suspected . . . because it always seemed to me that bits and pieces of the truth was there, if one looked at it from a slightly different perspective. Not the whole of it, obviously, but pieces. Thanks for posting that.

[RedeZra]

He was talking about the Pharisees and the scholars - and they're still doing it. Different religion, same story.

the Pharisees did not swap religion - they are today the Rabbis of Judaism

You just fail to see who's been running the Western world for the past 200 years -filling your head with propaganda and misinformation

[Icecold]

Quoting scripture is like eating Corn Flakes.

[RedeZra]

Well it's better then parroting propaganda against scripture

[Teakai]

the Pharisees did not swap religion - they are today the Rabbis of Judaism

I wasn't using it literally, Redezra - only that the religious leaders were keeping the real knowledge for themselves.


You just fail to see who's been running the Western world for the past 200 years -filling your head with propaganda and misinformation

Well, I have a few ideas who that might be - but would you like to narrow it down and just tell me who so I don't have to guess at who you mean?

[Teakai]

This is fascinating, Teakai, and something I've long suspected . . . because it always seemed to me that bits and pieces of the truth was there, if one looked at it from a slightly different perspective. Not the whole of it, obviously, but pieces. Thanks for posting that.

Hi Inthebackground, that's from the gospel of Thomas - it wasn't included in the bible as it was considered gnostic. Gnostic and control systems don't go together :)

http://www.westarinstitute.org/Polebridge/Excerpts/thomas.html

The Nag Hammadi Library is a good source to check out the gnostic texts.

[RedeZra]

Well, I have a few ideas who that might be - but would you like to narrow it down and just tell me who so I don't have to guess at who you mean?

Why would you have to guess ?


You are aware that a 'group of private people' are in control of the financial instruments of cash credit stock and trade - but perhaps you don't know the background of this 'group of private people' - and that they share a common blood bond and ideology which make them a big Family

Since the world evolves around money then it's only natural that those who have most of it get to decide the politics - and the policy is pretty straightforward and clear...


" Abolish petty nationstates and implement a one world government "


"We shall have world government, whether or not we like it. The question is only whether world government will be achieved by consent or by conquest." - James Paul Warburg (Feb. 17, 1950, to the United States Senate Committee on Foreign Relations)

His father Paul Moritz Warburg was an early advocate of the U.S. Federal Reserve system and a director of the Council on Foreign Relations at its founding in 1921


You can check the ideology of this big Family yourselves but suffice to say they are antagonistic to Christ Christianity and the Church - and since they are the big media moguls and corporate czars in the Western world they pretty much own your bodies and minds - but not your souls I hope

[Icecold]

:focus:





http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqB3F6N527U

[RedeZra]

Only good puppets of the Money Masters bashes the Catholic Church

[Teakai]

Why would you have to guess ?



ohhhh OK, because I thought maybe you meant the devil.
Which, if the reptilian theory is valid may have something to it.

¤=[Post Update]=¤


Only good puppets of the Money Masters bashes the Catholic Church

Not only them :)

[RedeZra]

the Church has made mistakes and so has the various nation states up through history but it's been centuries since the nation states separated from the Church

today the Church has been successfully subverted - still it is the perfect scapegoat for everything that is wrong

when you attack the Church you are attacking a subverted enemy of those who want to enslave you


the Church is the least of your problems !

[Teakai]

the Church has made mistakes and so has the various nation states up through history but it's been centuries since the nation states separated from the Church

today the Church has been successfully subverted - still it is the perfect scapegoat for everything that is wrong

when you attack the Church you are attacking a subverted enemy of those who want to enslave you


the Church is the least of your problems !

I don't think so, Redezra, nasty things happen at the Vatican - aside from the paedophilia that is.
Have you ever listened to Svali?
She was an illuminati mind programmer who defected. She had an experience at the Vatican which she speaks about - it involved her witnessing a child sacrifice.
You can find her on google if you're interested in following it up and finding out the truth about the catholic church.

I think the catholic church is already infiltrated by those bloodlines you're referring to.

[RedeZra]

I don't think so, Redezra, nasty things happen at the Vatican - aside from the paedophilia that is.

I think the catholic church is already infiltrated by those bloodlines you're referring to.

Yes Teakai that's what I'm trying to express ; )

the Church has been successfully infiltrated and subverted by the Great state or sate which governs the Western world

[Teakai]

Yes Teakai that's what I'm trying to express ; )

the Church has been successfully infiltrated and subverted by the Great state or sate which governs the Western world

We agree then.
Only when did that happen?

The roman catholic church killed off the cathars, persecuted the pagans, burned the library at Alexandria, flailed the skin from the bones of Hypatia, burned the witches and corrupted science.

It only became the roman catholic church through murder and persecution. Anything good that has come from that has happened despite it, not because of it.

[silentghost80]

>>>>>>>>>no<<<<<<<<<<<

[Icecold]

Only good puppets of the Money Masters bashes the Catholic Church



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOAOMu916v4
:fans:




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aq0lZ57AdWU



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q0MuzDLk5mk
:painkiller:

[araucaria]

Messianism arises from a misunderstanding of the message ‘I am authentic by being me’, which for a follower becomes ‘I am authentic by being (like) him, i.e. not me’. The teacher-pupil relationship is itself a mistake, implying knowledge to be given and received, hence a power structure. We are actually truly authentic by all learning together. For the Kabbalists, the messiah is ‘made not to come’, it is that which is to come, not perfection now but perfectibility: ‘Man’s perfection lies in his perfectibility’ (Levinas).

This is why I have a problem with someone like David Wilcock, who claims to be a teacher, and has to contradict people who see him as a messiah figure. To say one is not a messiah figure is like saying do not think of elephants: you can’t stop people thinking about elephants, however much you tell them not to. I like David, but teaching is one thing I am not into at all.

If by the Church we mean the people, I know of many wonderful folks who are Catholics, and being Catholics definitely has something to do with their being wonderful. Go figure. C G Jung has some answers I know. Basically I think it comes down to basic goodness; seeing no evil tends to create goodness everywhere. This can be confused with naivety, but I prefer the notion of ‘positive disingenuousness’ (don’t go googling it, I’ve just made it up ;)). I think this is what has happened to Charles on this forum, he has had to go with the flow.

[Arrowwind]

The Catholic Church gets exactly what it has created Karmically. Not one iota less. Not one iota more. Most of the enforcers, liers, pedophiles, murderers from the church are buring in thier own self created hell or will be soon... the minons that have supported them are just mindless dupes, that have been subject to control. They have not thier own minds for the most part and they will pay for that too with living without freedom and not seeing a pathway to their own enlightenment, and leaving it to others to medel with their spiritual destiny

I suspect this will be the last pope.

[shiva777]

the "church" is just a tool used to justify wars,mind control and disempowerment...as the "elite" or "33" or whatever you want to call them lose their control,their instruments of control also get exposed and lose their mesmerising influence over the masses...only the truths will remain,the deceptions are being seen by even the most blinded

...this forum seems to have taken a very dark turn towards a new instrument of the "elite" and anyone who speaks out about it gets banned because the moderators have been intimidated and conned in to believing the spokesperson for the new "tool"

[RedeZra]

The roman catholic church killed off the cathars, persecuted the pagans, burned the library at Alexandria, flailed the skin from the bones of Hypatia, burned the witches and corrupted science.


Stop parroting simple propaganda and at least backup your blames


We don't know who burnt the the Great library of Alexandria !

the sources disagree between three suspects - Julius Caesar, Patriarch Theophilus of Alexandria and Moslem Caliph Omar

http://www.bede.org.uk/library.htm


Pope Innocent III declared the Crusade against the Cathars and permitted a confiscation of captured Cathar land in Languedoc when the papal legate Pierre de Castelnau was assassinated allegedly by an agent serving the Cathar count of Toulouse

And so the northern French nobility raised up against the Cathar nobles of the south primarily for the prospect of conquering new lands

When a Cistercian commander was asked how to tell Cathars from Catholics he replied "Kill them all, the Lord will recognise His own."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catharism


Alexandria in the time of Hypatia was the scene of a bitter power struggle between the Patriarch Cyril and the Roman governor Orestes which escalated to include the Pagan and Jewish supporters of Orestes against the Christian supporters of Cyril

When Orestes by the instigation of Jews publicly tortured Hirax - a supporter of Cyril - then a group of desert monks brutally killed Hypatia who was a supporter of Orestes

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyril_of_Alexandria



If you only focus on the past errors of the Catholic Church then you might miss the atrocities being commited by the Western governments today !

[RedeZra]

The Catholic Church gets exactly what it has created Karmically. Not one iota less. Not one iota more. Most of the enforcers, liers, pedophiles, murderers from the church are buring in thier own self created hell or will be soon... the minons that have supported them are just mindless dupes, that have been subject to control. They have not thier own minds for the most part and they will pay for that too with living without freedom and not seeing a pathway to their own enlightenment, and leaving it to others to medel with their spiritual destiny


What then has karma in store for the aggressive American Empire ?

[truthseekerdan]

RedeZra my friend, may I suggest that you take some time and read this fascinating book by Dolores Cannon: "Jesus and the Essenes" (http://books.google.com/books?id=ouQG_K9UOHkC&printsec=frontcover&dq=jesus+and+the+essenes&hl=en&ei=kAxFTdidEojVgQeg3cCRAg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CDAQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false)
If you need an ebook copy just let me know, I'm more than happy to send you one. :)
Meantime let's stop the blaming game and start showing some love. After all this is what Jesus would do -- isn't that right?

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSFLezcGcONrl89bMi0ruP0CKr79mXhaxWIHtdRvQ2e-5kKzk3o&t=1

[RedeZra]

RedeZra my friend, may I suggest that you take some time and read this fascinating book by Dolores Cannon: "Jesus and the Essenes" (http://books.google.com/books?id=ouQG_K9UOHkC&printsec=frontcover&dq=jesus+and+the+essenes&hl=en&ei=kAxFTdidEojVgQeg3cCRAg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CDAQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false)
If you need an ebook copy just let me know, I'm more than happy to send you one. :)
Meantime let's stop the blaming game and start showing some love. After all this is what Jesus would do -- isn't that right?


Tnx Dan but you know that I don't subscribe to the whispers of etheral entities ; )

[Teakai]

Stop parroting simple propaganda and at least backup your blames

We don't know who burnt the the Great library of Alexandria !

the sources disagree between three suspects - Julius Caesar, Patriarch Theophilus of Alexandria and Moslem Caliph Omar

http://www.bede.org.uk/library.htm


Pope Innocent III declared the Crusade against the Cathars and permitted a confiscation of captured Cathar land in Languedoc when the papal legate Pierre de Castelnau was assassinated allegedly by an agent serving the Cathar count of Toulouse

And so the northern French nobility raised up against the Cathar nobles of the south primarily for the prospect of conquering new lands

When a Cistercian commander was asked how to tell Cathars from Catholics he replied "Kill them all, the Lord will recognise His own."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catharism


Alexandria in the time of Hypatia was the scene of a bitter power struggle between the Patriarch Cyril and the Roman governor Orestes which escalated to include the Pagan and Jewish supporters of Orestes against the Christian supporters of Cyril

When Orestes by the instigation of Jews publicly tortured Hirax - a supporter of Cyril - then a group of desert monks brutally killed Hypatia who was a supporter of Orestes

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyril_of_Alexandria


If you only focus on the past errors of the Catholic Church then you might miss the atrocities being commited by the Western governments today !


I don’t know, Redezra, I think you give me too much credit in regard to the attention and interest I have for the roman catholic church.

I know the roman catholic church was made official by Constantine, who was a ruler, who slayed people and raped and pillaged to extend his empire. I'm doubting that he was really interested in people getting spiritual knowledge, so much as uniting warring religious factions within his empire and being able to control them.
He was hardly a spiritually oriented man and yet he decided what stayed and what didn’t.
Not a good start.
Following on from that we have a succession of power hungry men – forget the women, they’re out - interested only in their own promotion, prestige and power.

The man who said this: "Kill them all, the Lord will recognise His own." Was later made a saint by the catholic church, except what he said where I read it was “Kill them all, let God sort them out.” This is a religion about a man who said ‘love each other’, ‘turn the other cheek’. Are we seeing the hypocrisy, yet?

I think there might be two versions of history – the history as written by the church and the history written by others. I think the church history is likely to be biased in its own favour.

I don’t much like organised religions at all – your examples above are part of the reason why. They are separatist and hypocritical, violent when it suits and rarely spiritual.

The roman catholic church with all it’s money and pomp and ceremony and sleazy child molesting priests is up there as the worst of them imo.

You obviously disagree and that’s fine.

[Icecold]

In 415 A.D. Under the command of bishop Cyril, the Alexandrian Library and university and the Serapis Temple were destroyed by the Christian mob under the orders of their bishop, and the professors and governors were killed, Hypatia, head of the philosophy school in Alexandria, was dragged out of her chariot and then skinned alive by the Christian mobs using oyster shells, killed and then burned. Orestes, the governor of Alexandria, according to the contemporary accounts, objected to Cyril (the future saint) expelling the Jews from the city, and was murdered by Christian monks for his opposition. Orders were then given to exile the Jews of Alexandria after the slaughter of few thousands Alexandrians. then they moved onto every other Egyptian city doing the same thing, killing every Egyptian priest or priestess, burning of libraries and the destruction and burning of temples and schools, no one can stop them nor escape from this new evil, They destroyed the Gnostic and Hermetic Schools through out the country. With these dark bloody events thus begun the dark ages of Europe.


Let's have a look at the life of Hypatia?


There was a woman at Alexandria named Hypatia, daughter of the philosopher Theon, who made such attainments in literature and science, as to far surpass all the philosophers of her own time. Having succeeded to the school of Plato and Plotinus, she explained the principles of philosophy to her auditors, many of whom came from a distance to receive her instructions. On account of the self-possession and ease of manner, which she had acquired in consequence of the cultivation of her mind, she not unfrequently appeared in public in presence of the magistrates. Neither did she feel abashed in going to an assembly of men. For all men on account of her extraordinary dignity and virtue admired her the more.[13] ”
—Socrates Scholasticus, Ecclesiastical History


...and christians skinned her alive. What a great loss to the world. A fine and rare woman. How many other fine rare women did christian mobs murder in the last two thousand years? We will probably never know. Because their exists a despicable depraved type of christian that would pervert history where possible and change it to suit their own agenda. There is even one on this thread.

[aroundthetable]

Grrrr, i'm trying to sit quietly at the back but this post itched me enough to pop my head up. Here's my thoughts on this. I believe the Catholic church is under a sustained smear campaign, as is religion in general. I think religion/spirituality is the last obstacle to be got rid of in order for the reptilian minded to push through their final solution. It has become a popular witch hunt, an easy target for lazy thinkers, a jerk reaction for the sheeple to cry pedophile (sp?) and cut the branch they sit on. If there is one thing that protects us it is our spiritual connection to God, this is our total protection whatever comes our way. I don't intend to get into a debate about 'organised' religion, why should religion be disorganised? So let's get to the point over pedophiles and abuse in general. Spiritual organisations are by their essence very open and welcoming in line with their scriptures. Therefore they are very easy/soft targets for infiltration by pedophiles and the like. Now imagine the horror and shame of the realisation that some so called members of this religion are abusers. This is a dilemna i wouldn't wish upon anybody. So the problem here is how it is dealt with and not about the validity of the mass of it members who are as caring and loving as anybody here. Don't try to throw the baby out with the bath water. I myself am a Hare Krishna and our organisation too has been infiltrated by these mentally ill individuals, and yes we too found it hard to deal with, after all we are so loving and devoted, how could this possibly happen to us!!! Infact the ensuing lawsuits from abused children nearly crippled our whole organisation. Now we have systems in place to prevent the horrors of abusers, unfortunately there will always be this kind of personality that seeks easy access amongst loving and trusting devotees. But before you light your witch burning torch and cry foul in the streets, be carewful what you wish for, love of God, organised or not, is our best and only protection of what we are all about. Please read the following article from a senior member of the Hare Krishna movement.

The writer suggests that the scandals in the Irish church could be partially attributed to the fact that Catholic priests were dealt with as ‘victims of their impulses’ and therefore deserving compassionate treatment. For this reason none of them were handed over to civil authorities.

Compassion is an extremely important quality, especially for those involved in cultivating a more spiritual life. And it’s true that, in general, we all tend to judge each other harshly, and with prejudice, so the general instruction for all aspiring spiritualists of any religious tradition might be: ‘Be more compassionate – and don’t judge others prematurely.’

But the ancient Greeks said that even virtues, when overly applied (and in the wrong circumstances) can become vices, and do a lot of harm. Compassion is one of the virtues, and its a great virtue; indeed, the great Pandava, Maharaja Yudhisthira, said that applied compassion – mercy – is the king of all the virtues. However, there is a time for compassionate action to become transformed to measures of discipline, so that a person may ultimately improve themselves, and that others may be protected. Not everyone in a group or society can be the recipient of compassion at all times and in all circumstances. Any society – even one based primarily on compassionate dealings – can only properly function when there is justice and discipline. If there is no discipline then continued compassion itself will serve to unbalance that society.

Srila Prabhupada tells the true story of a young man who was never disciplined throughout his childhood and who grew up a quite wayward fellow. He fell into bad company, was arrested by the police for a serious crime, and was about to be sentenced to a term in prison. He was asked if he had anything further to say, and motioned that he would like to speak to his aunt who had raised him. When he leaned over to whisper in her ear, instead of speaking to her he bit off a piece of her ear lobe. As she screamed and the blood ran down her cheek, he called out: “That’s for never disciplining me when I was a child! Now look at the result of your kindness!”

A Catholic priest applies God’s compassionate nature in his dealings with others, and particularly in the Rite of Reconciliation, where the confessions of the supplicant must be dealt with by his representation of the divine compassion of God. Its natural that within the very social institution of compassionate priesthood, that the dealing between priests should reflect the nature of the service they extend to others.

But there does come a time for discipline; which is only compassion applied in a different way. Forgiveness must be there, but that is never a substitute in any society for social discipline.

The whole affair becomes further complicated and problematic due to a Christian theological point which is often used to explain bad behaviour in the lives of otherwise good people: ‘evil influences’. Whether the individual actually believes in the Devil – and many priests these days do not – the notion that bad behaviour arises from forces external to the person can easily turn a perpetrator into a ‘victim’ of outside evil influences. Evil then becomes objectified and externalized.

For the Vaishnavas it is theologically impossible, in the ultimate sense, to talk of a Devil. We don’t have one, at least one that makes it his duty to force good people to commit evil deeds. External influences – yes; and demonic universal forces – yes. But ultimately the responsibility for the action lies with the actor. And the karma-phala - the fruit of actions – will accrue to the actor. Vaishnava theology puts any blame fairly and squarely with the individual, with the family, friends and mental disposition a product of former actions.

ISKCON has seen evil committed within its ranks, and unfortunately is no stranger to the pestilence of paedophile priests. And we, also like the Catholic Church, did not respond to the problem fast enough or in the appropriate way. We also tended to treat our priestly perpetrators as the ‘victims’ and preferred that their rectification be made in private, before God, without the involvement of civil authority. We, like the Catholic Church, could not countenance the embarrassment that the very people put on Earth to represent the Godhead were guilty of such heinous actions. We concluded that any localized incident of child abuse was a temporary aberration that could never – would never – possibly occur again. So nobody talked about it – and nobody saw certain patterns emerging. We will be paying for the consequences of those errors for years to come.

But we don’t have a Devil to blame, so how did we have so much compassion for our own priests that went astray? One reason might be that we are not entirely free from the sentimentalization of western society that has been growing for some decades now. It is quite fashionable in our ‘post-modern’ world to describe someone who resorts to criminal behaviour as a ‘victim’ of their upbringing; or of the educational system; or of their poor mental health; or that they were ‘victimized’ by falling into the wrong company at a crucial point in their life. Now all they need is love and understanding – and compassion – to reverse the process. It makes for everyone in western society understanding themselves as being a victim of someone or something else; and that there is always somebody to blame for their inadequacies.

Our theological loophole – the one that is most often misunderstood and regularly misused – is the verse in the Bhagavad-gita (9.30) where Shri Krishna says that: “Even if one commits the most abominable action, if he is engaged in devotional service he is to be considered saintly….” In his purport to this verse, Srila Prabhupada quotes a verse from the Nrsimha Purana (bhagavati ca harav ananya-ceta..) which explains that just as the spots on the moon do not impede the moonlight, similarly occasional accidental falls from the path of a saintly character do not make a devotee abominable.

But I have also personally sat before Srila Prabhupada when he used a comparable illustration in another way. He was perturbed by an illegality committed by his disciples and wanted to convey to us that we should not break the law in the name of Krishna. He said that if you have a white sheet with some black spots on it, everyone will look at the spots; and that if an ordinary man does something wrong then people may not talk, but that if a man who is supposed to be saintly does something wrong – then everyone will notice and talk about it.

So Bhagavad-gita 9.30 does not mean that a devotee of Krishna can do no wrong. In anticipation of our misuse of this verse Srila Prabhupada concludes: “…No one should take advantage of this verse and commit nonsense and think that he is still a devotee…”

ISKCON is a Society, but it is not separate from society in general. We have our internal rules but we do not have a process of law which runs separate from civil law. We don’t have our Vaishnava equivalent of the Islamic sharia. We are a branch of society, not something apart. If a devotee breaks the law then he must accept the consequences, the same as any member of society. God will forgive him, of course, but along with that state of grace may come social disgrace – and that’s good for the soul too.

http://deshika.wordpress.com/

[Arrowwind]

If you only focus on the past errors of the Catholic Church then you might miss the atrocities being commited by the Western governments today !

She is probably focusing on errors of the Catholic Church because this is what this thread is about. I doubt she is missing much about the atrocities commited by Eastern governments today either.

[Arrowwind]

Grrrr, i'm trying to sit quietly at the back but this post itched me enough to pop my head up. Here's my thoughts on this. I believe the Catholic church is under a sustained smear campaign, as is religion in general. I think religion/spirituality is the last obstacle to be got rid of in order for the reptilian minded to push through their final solution. It has become a popular witch hunt, an easy target for lazy thinkers, a jerk reaction for the sheeple to cry pedophile (sp?) and cut the branch they sit on. ]

Makes me think you were not raised catholic nor suffered from some of their tyranny.
I was and I did.
Subjected to a methodical, planned and executed brainwashing to control me
my reproduction, my money and the children that I might create....to steal my potential for evolution and to find my truth. So cut me off from my own spiritual powers through rote reptition of meaninless garbage they call prayers. To cut me off from my own source. It is a grevious assault.


To me the devil is merely life lived backwards, just look at the word. its says it all.... not living life according to her sacred and natual laws.
Living life backwards... not doing what brings you to light and love.

The church as been involved in too much oppression, in too many lies. They have really damaged people. So why should the people not rise up and call them on their wickedness? and repeatedly over and over with each revelation, with each insight as they gain insight in to what has happened to them and now that we can, now that we don't have to fear for our lives and livelihood as we once did? or the fires of hell for we now know that is not real as the church taught.

I will slam then at every opportunity untill they are on their knees for what they have done to me, to my family, to my ancestors. I have made it known to my children their evil ways, their life lived backwards methods so they will never be inticed by the sheer bull sh..!
There is no forgiveness and there is also no hate. There is just sheer intent to see them done. There is only the intent to break their structure so they can no longer do what they have always done. When they are left powerless then, I will not forgive... for much of what they done should not be forgiven. It should be stood against and not allowed to have power.... and I will never forget so that when I am faced with such energies again I will know them. I will not forgive what should not have been done and was done with full knowledge. I will remain aware and awake so that I and those I love will not be enslaved again.

[Arrowwind]

What then has karma in store for the aggressive American Empire ?

Probably about the same as for all aggressive empires, both east and west. I don't know why you keep trying to turn this thread off topic.

If you want to talk about how screwed up the American Empire is start another thread. Im sure you will find lots of support for it.

[silentghost80]

Grrrr, i'm trying to sit quietly at the back but this post itched me enough to pop my head up. Here's my thoughts on this. I believe the Catholic church is under a sustained smear campaign, as is religion in general. I think religion/spirituality is the last obstacle to be got rid of in order for the reptilian minded to push through their final solution. It has become a popular witch hunt, an easy target for lazy thinkers, a jerk reaction for the sheeple to cry pedophile (sp?) and cut the branch they sit on

religion should be abolished it is a horrid construct used to control people.
spirituality is different and offers freedom of choice and belief you walk your own path not the one people tell you that you should .
the catholic church has responsibly for mass genocide.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rx8PdvOELvY
50 million killed over 605 years
btw i am not a christian,i walk the spiritual path and will defend it to the death and in life again

[Icecold]

Aroundthetable wrote:


I myself am a Hare Krishna and our organisation too has been infiltrated by these mentally ill individuals, and yes we too found it hard to deal with, after all we are so loving and devoted, how could this possibly happen to us!!! Infact the ensuing lawsuits from abused children nearly crippled our whole organisation. Now we have systems in place to prevent the horrors of abusers, unfortunately there will always be this kind of personality that seeks easy access amongst loving and trusting devotees. But before you light your witch burning torch and cry foul in the streets, be carewful what you wish for, love of God, organised or not, is our best and only protection of what we are all about. Please read the following article from a senior member of the Hare Krishna movement.

Would you like me to name them? I was a member of the Sydney Temple when the **** hit the fan. His personal servant was a very good friend of mine. But let's not go there eh?

The entire succession of gurus within the movement is now corrupted as you well know.


However, there is a time for compassionate action to become transformed to measures of discipline, so that a person may ultimately improve themselves,

Yes compassion and mercy. Yes there is compassion and mercy for individuals, for souls. An organisation does not qualify for the focus of the virtue of compassion and mercy. You are misinterpreting the intent.

[aroundthetable]

Most victims of pedophiles are from within familiies, perhaps we should destroy families too, no even better, lets destroy everything that isnt perfect!

[Icecold]

Most victims of pedophiles are from within familiies, perhaps we should destroy families too, no even better, lets destroy everything that isnt perfect!

You an I both know that your statement makes no sense whatsoever.

You didn't read my last post. I said the organisation responsible is the problem and deserves no mercy as a constructed institutional appendage of the Roman Empire.


What did Krsna say to Arjuna regarding Arjuna's reticence in attacking his enemies?

[silentghost80]

Most victims of pedophiles are from within families, perhaps we should destroy families too, no even better, lets destroy everything that isn't perfect!
pedophiles that rape family members already destroyed their own family.
too bad if the victim is embarrassed they need to know they can not ever let it happen to them again. instead of teaching them that nothing will be done

[aroundthetable]

Here is a lecture titled, controlling your reactions, i hope some may find it helpful.

http://www.utahkrishnas.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=977:controlling-your-reactions&catid=113:sunday-talks-on-demand&Itemid=386

Sorry op, i most certainly didn't want to divert this thread towards the Hare Krishna movement!!! Still, evil everywhere needs to be dealt with, even when its on your doorstep.

Simply wishing to serve the Lords feet,

Positive thoughts to you all.

[silentghost80]

Here is a lecture titled, controlling your reactions, i hope some may find it helpful.

http://www.utahkrishnas.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=977:controlling-your-reactions&catid=113:sunday-talks-on-demand&Itemid=386 that is a waste of time "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing"

[Icecold]

Maybe some time in the future when you are older perhaps you will understand that you are mind controlled from within your organisation. It will be a bitter lesson.

You are not free. Institutionalised religion is a mind trap. You can't carry that baggage and expect to be awakened. You can't see that yet.

[aroundthetable]

Maybe some time in the future when you are older perhaps you will understand that you are mind controlled from within your organisation. It will be a bitter lesson.

You are not free. Institutionalised religion is a mind trap. You can't carry that baggage and expect to be awakened. You can't see that yet.

Please try to resist the urge to personally attack me and my lifestyle. I am simply trying to engage with this thread because i felt it worthy of a response. Of course it is a sensitive issue, and i fully expected such reactions from some. Quick judgements about my ability to choose a lifestyle i like is not helpful. Harsh judgements are also baggage that prevents enlightenment.

Peace to you,
I mean that.

[Icecold]

Dont patronise me. You should follow your own advise....


Sorry op, i most certainly didn't want to divert this thread towards the Hare Krishna movement!!! Still, evil everywhere needs to be dealt with, even when its on your doorstep.

As an observation, and someone with experience of 30 years and more, I would have never have believed that a true devotee, could have put up such a weak argument. I don't know what temple you attend, but they are neglecting your education.

[aroundthetable]

Dont patronise me. You should follow your own advise....



As an observation, and someone with experience of 30 years and more, I would have never have believed that a true devotee, could have put up such a weak argument. I don't know what temple you attend, but they are neglecting your education.

Your right, i am not a true devotee, i am very unintelligent. One day i pray, to be wiser.

and thankyou for your learned method of teaching me better. That 30 years is certainly not wasted.

[Icecold]

Your right, i am not a true devotee, i am very unintelligent. One day i pray, to be wiser.

and thankyou for your learned method of teaching me better. That 30 years is certainly not wasted.

Then i wish you well and hope that you find what you desire most as a spiritual being.

[aroundthetable]

Then i wish you well and hope that you find what you desire most as a spiritual being.

I wish you well too, Haribol.

[truthseekerdan]

Unconditional Love does not attack others. Fear of losing something does... It's time to realize that and come together in order to change this paradigm. :love:

Namaste ~ Dan

http://www.mycrunkspace.com/content/graphics/7d81e8abdc9a390f85d4c40da34666ca.gif

[aroundthetable]

Unconditional Love does not attack others. Fear of losing something does... It's time to realize that and come together in order to change this paradigm. :love:

Namaste ~ Dan

http://www.mycrunkspace.com/content/graphics/7d81e8abdc9a390f85d4c40da34666ca.gif

Dan!!!! BIG hugs to you dear soul xxx

[RedeZra]

I don’t know, Redezra, I think you give me too much credit in regard to the attention and interest I have for the roman catholic church.



Are you not really saying Teakai that you parrot propaganda you have picked up against the Catholic Church without knowing if they are true or not ?

If you're going to blame someone you should at least know something about them and cross-check the background behind popular propaganda

I know you know that information today is heavily infiltrated with deceit and outright lies so don't be too lazy to investigate information for yourselves


Before the Roman Emperor Constantine converted to Christianity and issued the Edict of Milan in 313 the Christians had been persecuted for 300 years !


Constantine was the son of Helena and the co-emperor Constantius I but because the vast Roman Empire was ruled by a tetrarchy at that time Constantine was sidelined by schemes and personal ambitions of powerful players after his father's death. Constantine had to fight for the right to rule and so the Empire witnessed the civil wars of the Tetrarchy between 306 and 324 AD

Before Constantine's final battle against Maxentius much bigger army Constantine and his men supposedly saw the sign of the 'Chi-Rho' - a symbol representing the first two letters of the word Christos - in heaven with a message "In this sign, you will conquer" - so Constantine had his soldiers mark the symbol on their shields. Later this Chi-Rho symbol was incorporated in Constantine's labarum or millitary standard

Constantine sought first and foremost social stability in the vast empire which was Rome and instructed that Christians and non-Christians alike should be united and observe the 'venerable day of the sun' or Sol Invictus which was a winter solstice festival celebrating the sun turning northward bringing brighter days again - it is possible that's why we celebrate Christmas to this day

Constantine saw it as his duty to ensure that God was properly worshipped in his empire and what proper worship consisted of was for the Church to determine so he summoned the bishops to come to Nicea in 325 to solidify and unite under one universal Christian teaching

Oh and Constantine made new laws regarding the Jews. They were forbidden to own Christian slaves or to circumcise their slaves

[RedeZra]

In 415 A.D. Under the command of bishop Cyril, the Alexandrian Library and university and the Serapis Temple were destroyed by the Christian mob under the orders of their bishop, and the professors and governors were killed, Hypatia, head of the philosophy school in Alexandria, was dragged out of her chariot and then skinned alive by the Christian mobs using oyster shells, killed and then burned. Orestes, the governor of Alexandria, according to the contemporary accounts, objected to Cyril (the future saint) expelling the Jews from the city, and was murdered by Christian monks for his opposition. Orders were then given to exile the Jews of Alexandria after the slaughter of few thousands Alexandrians. then they moved onto every other Egyptian city doing the same thing, killing every Egyptian priest or priestess, burning of libraries and the destruction and burning of temples and schools, no one can stop them nor escape from this new evil, They destroyed the Gnostic and Hermetic Schools through out the country. With these dark bloody events thus begun the dark ages of Europe.


Are you aware that you quote information from just one pro pagan and anti Christian website called the perankhgroup ?



Probably about the same as for all aggressive empires, both east and west. I don't know why you keep trying to turn this thread off topic.

I'm not turning this Catholic bashing thread off topic just because I don't bash in

I'm not even Catholic... but I can't stand uninformed and prejudiced attack on anyone - not even the Catholic Church - just because agents of the elusive illuminati has successfully infiltrated insulted and subverted the Vatican and many of it's churches


Attacking the Catholic Church is like attacking a subverted enemy of those who want to enslave you

Why don't you grow some guts and tackle and topple the real problem - the Jewish-Masonic power behind our governments ?

[araucaria]

If by the Church we mean the people, I know of many wonderful folks who are Catholics, and being Catholics definitely has something to do with their being wonderful. Go figure. C G Jung has some answers I know. Basically I think it comes down to basic goodness; seeing no evil tends to create goodness everywhere. This can be confused with naivety, but I prefer the notion of ‘positive disingenuousness’ (don’t go googling it, I’ve just made it up ;)). I think this is what has happened to Charles on this forum, he has had to go with the flow.

Just to add something to my earlier post, and tie in with something I wrote on the The Key thread, this is to do with Catholic veneration of the divine feminine, which is one of the major factors in the persecutions in the later 15 th and early 16th centuries

[Teakai]

Are you not really saying Teakai that you parrot propaganda you have picked up against the Catholic Church without knowing if they are true or not ?

If you're going to blame someone you should at least know something about them and cross-check the background behind popular propaganda

I know you know that information today is heavily infiltrated with deceit and outright lies so don't be too lazy to investigate information for yourselves


Before the Roman Emperor Constantine converted to Christianity and issued the Edict of Milan in 313 the Christians had been persecuted for 300 years !


Constantine was the son of Helena and the co-emperor Constantius I but because the vast Roman Empire was ruled by a tetrarchy at that time Constantine was sidelined by schemes and personal ambitions of powerful players after his father's death. Constantine had to fight for the right to rule and so the Empire witnessed the civil wars of the Tetrarchy between 306 and 324 AD

Before Constantine's final battle against Maxentius much bigger army Constantine and his men supposedly saw the sign of the 'Chi-Rho' - a symbol representing the first two letters of the word Christos - in heaven with a message "In this sign, you will conquer" - so Constantine had his soldiers mark the symbol on their shields. Later this Chi-Rho symbol was incorporated in Constantine's labarum or millitary standard

Constantine sought first and foremost social stability in the vast empire which was Rome and instructed that Christians and non-Christians alike should be united and observe the 'venerable day of the sun' or Sol Invictus which was a winter solstice festival celebrating the sun turning northward bringing brighter days again - it is possible that's why we celebrate Christmas to this day

Constantine saw it as his duty to ensure that God was properly worshipped in his empire and what proper worship consisted of was for the Church to determine so he summoned the bishops to come to Nicea in 325 to solidify and unite under one universal Christian teaching

Oh and Constantine made new laws regarding the Jews. They were forbidden to own Christian slaves or to circumcise their slaves


It’s really difficult to avoid parroting the truth, Redezra.

Did the inquisiton not happen under the banner of the r/c church?
Were the r/c church not responsible for the witch trials?
Did the roman catholic church not rid women from being able to spread Jesus’ message?
Did the r/c church not slaughter pagans and Cathars and an exhaustive amount of people in their quest to be the ruling religion?
Did the r/c church not stop scientific progression in it's tracks and spiral Euprope into what is known as the 'dark ages' for several hundred years?
Is the r/c church sitting on a forune while people are starving?
Does child molestation not run rampant within the catholic church?

I am not interested in why they did/do these things – only that they did/do them. I’m sure, like Constantine slaughtering his own family members – they felt they were justified.

From the sources I’ve read there is no evidence that Constantine ever converted to Christianity. Did you read that – or are you just looking at the pro-Christian propaganda? :)

And I can see how Christianity would be a big draw for the slave section of the population. However, this wasn’t done out of humanity for the slaves – it was about persecuting the Jews.
Christians could still own Jewish slaves.

[Teakai]

Please try to resist the urge to personally attack me and my lifestyle. I am simply trying to engage with this thread because i felt it worthy of a response. Of course it is a sensitive issue, and i fully expected such reactions from some. Quick judgements about my ability to choose a lifestyle i like is not helpful. Harsh judgements are also baggage that prevents enlightenment.

Peace to you,
I mean that.

I don't think it was meant as a harsh judgment, aroundthetable, it was just a statement of fact. Religion is a baggage - and unecessary baggage.
If a person requires religion to tell them what is right and what is not, what they should do and what they shouldn't -then they are not yet spiritually aware - for the spiritually aware already know their truth.

It's also not a sensitive issue. Anyone who gets offended by discussing this topic is acting from ego - getting defensive about what they see as being attacked. How can discussing religion be a personal attack or judgment - people are not their religion.
People are people - some people are deluded people :)

[9eagle9]

I look at what people say in context to what they are asking an find the answer in the question. Yes, the Catholic church gets a bum rap most noticeably for the bum rapping (should I say raping) that has occurred there. Among other things.

Celine posted photos of innocents. (Innocence) Presumably of those whose innocence was lost to the Church? Those children represent all of us collectively that had our innocence our inner child, our connection with God(SELF) wounded by institutions like the church. Their congregations are as much a victim as we are. Or once were.

Jesus spoke of the suffering that would incur when the innocents (innocence) were degraded and abused. Didn't he?

If the Church believes anything it says it believes why should any of them be shocked the organization is suffering for its theft and degradation of innocents (Innocence).

They brought it on themselves. The Church authorities are constantly extolling the consequences of Sin. So they are suffering the consequences of their own sins. Shocking? No. You reap what you sow.

[Teakai]

Are you aware that you quote information from just one pro pagan and anti Christian website called the perankhgroup ?




I'm not turning this Catholic bashing thread off topic just because I don't bash in

I'm not even Catholic... but I can't stand uninformed and prejudiced attack on anyone - not even the Catholic Church - just because agents of the elusive illuminati has successfully infiltrated insulted and subverted the Vatican and many of it's churches


Attacking the Catholic Church is like attacking a subverted enemy of those who want to enslave you

Why don't you grow some guts and tackle and topple the real problem - the Jewish-Masonic power behind our governments ?

Redezra, just to be clear, I'm not talking about people I'm talking about the institution. I realise there are lovely kind people who have done much for humanity and been roman catholics - Mother Theresa is one who stands out, I also realise that there are not so nice people within it's ranks - some of these people even get to make major decisions.

The thing is - if you buy into religion of any kind - you are susceptible to the plan of the nwo. The same thing that is happening now to Christianity happened to the Jews when the age of Pisces came in. It is unavoidable - the only way to not be affected by it, is to find your own spiritual truth.

By protecting these institutions you are unknowingly continuing to buy into the system.

[RedeZra]

From the sources I’ve read there is no evidence that Constantine ever converted to Christianity. Did you read that – or are you just looking at the pro-Christian propaganda? :)



Well is wikipedia pro-Christian ?

the great thing about wikipedia is the nice nuanced way with which it presents it's topics and cites it's sources - so we can cross-check the information for ourselves and not depend on simple slogans or popular propaganda taken all out of context and read somewhere on the net


Tnx Teakai for the discussion ; )

[Icecold]

By Socrates Scholasticus, from his Ecclesiastical History


THERE WAS a woman at Alexandria named Hypatia, daughter of the philosopher Theon, who made such attainments in literature and science, as to far surpass all the philosophers of her own time. Having succeeded to the school of Plato and Plotinus, she explained the principles of philosophy to her auditors, many of whom came from a distance to receive her instructions. On account of the self-possession and ease of manner, which she had acquired in consequence of the cultivation of her mind, she not unfrequently appeared in public in presence of the magistrates. Neither did she feel abashed in going to an assembly of men. For all men on account of her extraordinary dignity and virtue admired her the more. Yet even she fell victim to the political jealousy which at that time prevailed. For as she had frequent interviews with Orestes, it was calumniously reported among the Christian populace, that it was she who prevented Orestes from being reconciled to the bishop. Some of them, therefore, hurried away by a fierce and bigoted zeal, whose ringleader was a reader named Peter, waylaid her returning home, and dragging her from her carriage, they took her to the church called Caesareum, where they completely stripped her, and then murdered her with tiles.* After tearing her body in pieces, they took her mangled limbs to a place called Cinaron, and there burnt them. This affair brought not the least opprobrium, not only upon Cyril, but also upon the whole Alexandrian church. And surely nothing can be farther from the spirit of Christianity than the allowance of massacres, fights, and transactions of that sort. This happened in the month of March during Lent, in the fourth year of Cyril's episcopate, under the tenth consulate of Honorius, and the sixth of Theodosius.


Mathematician, Astronomer, and Philosopher (d. 415 C.E.)

Hypatia was a mathematician, astronomer, and Platonic philosopher. According to the Byzantine encyclopedia The Suda, her father Theon was the last head of the Museum at Alexandria.

Hypatia's prominence was accentuated by the fact that she was both female and pagan in an increasingly Christian environment. Shortly before her death, Cyril was made the Christian bishop of Alexandria, and a conflict arose between Cyril and the prefect Orestes. Orestes was disliked by some Christians and was a friend of Hypatia, and rumors started that Hypatia was to blame for the conflict. In the spring of 415 C.E., the situation reached a tragic conclusion when a band of Christian monks seized Hypatia on the street, beat her, and dragged her body to a church where they mutilated her flesh with sharp tiles and burned her remains.

From Damascius's Life of Isidore, reproduced in The Suda

Translated by Jeremiah Reedy


HYPATIA, daughter of Theon the geometer and philosopher of Alexandria, was herself a well-known philosopher. She was the wife of the philosopher Isidorus, and she flourished under the Emperor Arcadius. Author of a commentary on Diophantus, she also wrote a work called The Astronomical Canon and a commentary on The Conics of Apollonius. She was torn apart by the Alexandrians and her body was mocked and scattered through the whole city. This happened because of envy and her outstanding wisdom especially regarding astronomy. Some say Cyril was responsible for this outrage; others blame the Alexandrians' innate ferocity and violent tendencies for they dealt with many of their bishops in the same manner, for example George and Proterius.

Regarding Hypatia the Philosopher and the Sedition of the Alexandrians

Hypatia was born, reared, and educated in Alexandria. Since she had greater genius than her father, she was not satisfied with his instruction in mathematical subjects; she also devoted herself diligently to all of philosophy.

The woman used to put on her philosopher's cloak and walk through the middle of town and publicly interpret Plato, Aristotle, or the works of any other philosopher to those who wished to hear her. In addition to her expertise in teaching she rose to the pinnacle of civic virtue. She was both just and chaste and remained always a virgin. She was so beautiful and shapely that one of her students fell in love with her and was unable to control himself and openly showed her a sign of his infatuation. Uninformed reports had Hypatia curing him of his affliction with the help of music. The truth is that the story about music is corrupt. Actually, she gathered rags that had been stained during her period and showed them to him as a sign of her unclean descent and said, "This is what you love, young man, and it isn't beautiful!" He was so affected by shame and amazement at the ugly sight that he experienced a change of heart and went away a better man.

Such was Hypatia, as articulate and eloquent in speaking as she was prudent and civil in her deeds. The whole city rightly loved her and worshipped her in a remarkable way, but the rulers of the city from the first envied her, something that often happened at Athens too. For even if philosophy itself had perished, nevertheless, its name still seems magnificent and venerable to the men who exercise leadership in the state. Thus it happened one day that Cyril, bishop of the opposition sect [i.e. Christianity] was passing by Hypatia's house, and he saw a great crowd of people and horses in front of her door. Some were arriving, some departing, and others standing around. When he asked why there was a crowd there and what all the fuss was about, he was told by her followers that it was the house of Hypatia the philosopher and she was about to greet them. When Cyril learned this he was so struck with envy that he immediately began plotting her murder and the most heinous form of murder at that. For when Hypatia emerged from her house, in her accustomed manner, a throng of merciless and ferocious men who feared neither divine punishment nor human revenge attacked and cut her down, thus committing an outrageous and disgraceful deed against their fatherland. The Emperor was angry, and he would have avenged her had not Aedesius been bribed. Thus the Emperor remitted the punishment onto his own head and family for his descendant paid the price. The memory of these events is still vivid among the Alexandrians.


Now here is a christian view......notice the difference in intepretation to the three earlier accounts....

By John, Bishop of Nikiu, from his Chronicle 84.87-103

Reprinted with permission from Alexandria 2
AND IN THOSE DAYS there appeared in Alexandria a female philosopher, a pagan named Hypatia, and she was devoted at all times to magic, astrolabes and instruments of music, and she beguiled many people through (her) Satanic wiles. And the governor of the city honored her exceedingly; for she had beguiled him through her magic. And he ceased attending church as had been his custom. But he went once under circumstances of danger. And he not only did this, but he drew many believers to her, and he himself received the unbelievers at his house. And on a certain day when they were making merry over a theatrical exhibition connected with dancers, the governor of the city published (an edict) regarding the public exhibitions in the city of Alexandria: and all the inhabitants of the city had assembled there (in the theater). Now Cyril, who had been appointed patriarch after Theophilus, was eager to gain exact intelligence regarding this edict. And there was a man named Hierax, a Christian possessing understanding and intelligence who used to mock the pagans but was a devoted adherent of the illustrious Father the patriarch and was obedient to his monitions. He was also well versed in the Christian faith. (Now this man attended the theater to learn the nature of this edict.) But when the Jews saw him in the theater they cried out and said: "This man has not come with any good purpose, but only to provoke an uproar." And Orestes the prefect was displeased with the children of the holy church, and Hierax was seized and subjected to punishment publicly in the theater, although he was wholly guiltless. And Cyril was wroth with the governor of the city for so doing, and likewise for his putting to death an illustrious monk of the convent of Pernodj [1] named Ammonius, and other monks (also). And when the chief magistrate [2] of the city heard this, he sent word to the Jews as follows: "Cease your hostilities against the Christians." But they refused to hearken to what they heard; for they gloried in the support of the prefect who was with them, and so they added outrage to outrage and plotted a massacre through a treacherous device. And they posted beside them at night in all the streets of the city certain men, while others cried out and said: "The church of the apostolic Athanasius is on fire: come to its succour, all ye Christians." And the Christians on hearing their cry came fourth quite ignorant of the treachery of the Jews. And when the Christians came forth, the Jews arose and wickedly massacred the Christians and shed the blood of many, guiltless though they were. And in the morning, when the surviving Christians heard of the wicked deed which the Jews had wrought, they betook themselves to the patriarch. And the Christians mustered all together and went and marched in wrath to the synagogues of the Jews and took possession of them, and purified them and converted them into churches. And one of them they named after the name of St. George. And as for the Jewish assassins they expelled them from the city, and pillaged all their possessions and drove them forth wholly despoiled, and Orestes the prefect was unable to render them any help. And thereafter a multitude of believers in God arose under the guidance of Peter the magistrate -- now this Peter was a perfect believer in all respects in Jesus Christ -- and they proceeded to seek for the pagan woman who had beguiled the people of the city and the prefect through her enchantments. And when they learnt the place where she was, they proceeded to her and found her seated on a (lofty) chair; and having made her descend they dragged her along till they brought her to the great church, named Caesarion. Now this was in the days of the fast. And they tore off her clothing and dragged her [till they brought her] through the streets of the city till she died. And they carried her to a place named Cinaron, and they burned her body with fire. And all the people surrounded the patriarch Cyril and named him "the new Theophilus"; for he had destroyed the last remains of idolatry in the city.


http://www.google.com.au/#q=How+the+church+distorts+history&hl=en&safe=off&biw=1280&bih=911&prmd=ivns&tbs=tl:1&tbo=u&ei=hxFGTfbYOoa-vgPh2vTxAQ&sa=X&oi=timeline_result&ct=title&resnum=11&ved=0CF8Q5wIwCg&fp=a485abfb9ab19e5f

[Teakai]

Well is wikipedia pro-Christian ?


I wouldn't call Wikipedia a reliable source at all, Redezra - it can be altered by anybody who cares enough to make the effort.


Tnx Teakai for the discussion ; )

A pleasure. Any time :)

[the_flyingboy]

my opinion about same sex marriage is that its not natural at all, i dont have anything against homosexual people but in my mind it isn't right same thing applies to homosexuals adopting a child.

[RedeZra]

my opinion about same sex marriage is that its not natural at all, i dont have anything against homosexual people but in my mind it isn't right same thing applies to homosexuals adopting a child.

So you don't subscribe to the idea that nothing is right or wrong in the world and that anything goes as long as it's neither good or bad ?

[Icecold]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FMEe7JqBgvg

[enoch]

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