Personal Experience with Utopian Concepts

[write4change]

These are thoughts in considering the Zeitgeist movement. I felt it was too long for a comment and would not be seen by those who were interested in just the concepts of cooperative living.

There has never been a time when I have not been fascinated by the idea of cooperative living. I began mine with reading Little Women and Little Men which portrays it as a sort of extended family experience. When I was told by a teacher that Alcott's father was a commune leader under the auspices of Ralph Waldo Emerson. I started my research.

I still carry a small book of Emerson around in my purse. It fits in the palm of my hand and I have always vibrated with his vision as had my grandparents who quoted him all the time. How could someone so wise and so learned combined with other like minded people fail?

In the late 60s and early 70s in the Northern California area I joined several. Never for longer than 60 days. Mostly little ones of sharing work and expenses. Some partial with skills and food. And one big one for a final excruciating experience.

What I believe is true of all of them for failing even the old ones is the ongoing fight for leadership. There is always this drive for top down hierarchal power. My personal experience was that the women do all the work and the men do all the talking. The more educated the men the more complicated the simplest project.

I once watched 4 men and a major pick up truck with chains spend most of an entire day trying to remove a two foot in diameter tree stump. They trashed the yard, created a mud mess, repeatedly broke the chains, and practically destroyed the bumper and the pickup. This place at this time had a $35,000 Caterpillar like tractor. At the end of the day an older Hispanic woman wove the chains around the stump got on the tractor and pulled out the stump in about 5 minutes.

The men had a great time. They bond doing things side by side. (Women bond talking face to face.) Had they been successful, this would have been one of their war stories for all time. How I Beat the Tree Stump.

Emerson provided the money for the project. He did not want to live and work there. He did want it to be self sufficient. Granted work then was continuous and hard. Alcott's father if you read through the lines wanted to be the on site supervisor,do all of the talking and none of the work. The others wanted total equality and thus, everything that needed doing was an argument. Self sufficiency never occurred. Emerson got fed up and refused to supply any more money and everyone just left. This is typical of most small communes.

I lived in one in the north beach area of San Francisco where it was a bunch of young well paid entrance level professionals in the 70s who wanted to live in luxury and its perks and still save money. Getting in one of the old Victorian type town houses with six bedrooms and three baths, library, music room, and garden walk able to a lot of cool places, But there was never a willingness to spend the money for a really good housekeeper. The guys were really irresponsible. They wanted to eat but not really cook or clean. They always had mothers or maids to pick up after them and with women on the scene, it felt just like home. Dividing up chores by the week or month was always a stress scene. There was huge selfishness on the part of the guys who ate far more and resented paying a fair share for common food. The guys wanted their money to bond with other guys and scoring other women. The women wanted the money so they could put a down payment on their own home. So no matter how good it looked, the stress of actual living there undid the place. The communal pot (taxes) was always to be starved but the services and benefits desired (civilization) were most prevalent to those who had the balls to just take it. Women at that time were low on audacity levels.

In American history, the Utopian movements that had any kind of longevity were usually tied together in a common religious belief; like the shakers and the Amish. The Amish succeeded because the big farms remained private property worked by extended families with right of inheritance. But it is not all peace and love. James Mitchner's work The Novel tells the story of two Amish brothers who fought for 40 years since the day of their father's death til one of their own. Their fight destroyed families and communities. Only at the end of the book do you find out what they were fighting about because no one but the brothers really knew. They had a fight over their father's funeral as to whether or not it was permitted by their laws to wear suspenders. It comes as stunning revelation at the end of this book. You are amazed at the stupidity that has just been displayed and then you remember Einstein's quote about the infinite stupidity of mankind. This is hard to deal with in commune's without a huge bond of commitment.

At Stanford, I belonged to a group of young people who were all attached to the big faculty student relationships of the social science department. For a couple of years, these people did cooperative shopping when there was no thought of an internet. What we did was meet every three months as one big group for a whole day of everybody bring something festival and we tested food products and arranged to buy them direct. Because of the nature of California especially then you could drive to another totally different climate in one hour or so. Some of us went to wineries and bought wine for three months for 50 people. Some of us bought whole wheels of Jarlsberg cheese. Bought live pigs, chickens, sheep at from the farmers. Had him arrange to deliver them to local butchers. Bought extra and gave them to the butcher for butchering ours. Divided everything up among us that was staples. Alternated small groups going to farmers market on a weekly basis--they did not come to the cities then. Sharing the tasks.

My closest friends of my life were 4 other single mothers with children. Boy, were we outsiders then. We were all going to nursing school with really tuff hours. Had Friday afternoons off and we went from house to house cleaning each one. Trust me, this is an intimate experience. One would do the laundry, one the dusting and vacuuming. One cleaning and cooking in the kitchen and one in the yard. We did a lot of screaming, crying, cursing, and laughing while we did it. We finished up at the pizza parlor. Both a cleansing and energizing ritual. As far as I know this broke down only when we all graduated and had to move on. It was time consuming in some ways but I would do all this again if I found other people willing to do the same. That memory feels exactly like another dimension in time.

1972 was Stanford's last graduating nursing class. They shut it down during the height of the nursing shortage. 1968 was the implementation of medicare. Cal poly also shut down. That could be another diary.

The huge failure was Synanon. A take over of one city block manufacturing center on Army Steet in the Mission District of San Franciso. About three hundred people living together. Equal division of addicts, thugs, and felons with nuns, young business men and women, some older really wealthy patrons. Playing The Game which it was really called. To join you gave over your paycheck and got colored tokens to use in the communal store and cafeteria. You must weekly play the game at least once of shouting and cursing the truth at one another. Dietrich's vision was top down hierarchal; he would take all the money and gifts but really gave nothing back. It was his power trip. Came down almost at once when sex became a male right.

The biggest known historical failure is almost never taught. I began my education as an American History Major. I had 56 undergraduate semester units. It was a big surprise to me that I almost knew nothing about real history and have spent a lifetime discovering. To this day, I am amazed at how much is known in archeology that is still not taught but is there in front of our faces. Love the interview of the guy with all the small ancient artifacts no one wants to see or explain. (I am bad with names because of my brain injury. What sticks with me is deeply embedded knowledge. I was lucky to have an extensive education 30 years ago. I can build on it. The knowledge weaves but the names don't.)

The big historical failure was the Owens experiment. Owens was a wealthy owner, manufacturer, financier from England who bought a whole town outside of Philadelphia. The people he bought from all moved west. He obtained a complete town with stores, churches, schools, bookbinding, black smith, animals, livestock, 3,000 acres of productive land. He brought over ship loads of English people who needed a new start. These people had skills and experience. It was a complete failure in that no one really wanted to work in what they perceived to have no real stake in. Once here, they would rather go out to the frontier and cut their own homestead. The one thing Owen would not give up was owning the land so he could sell and get his money back.

Ironically, this has been repeated in Israel. The kibbutz's only survived with huge state subsidies. The third generation of those born on this land shared in this manner have been democratically slowly unwinding the legal ties that bind. There is a documentary about them. What sticks in my mind is a woman at 40 who is so pleased to at last own her own car. The kibbutz's were democratically created and democratically destroyed.

What is interesting about discussions in the Zeitgeist movement is the willingness to talk about allowing the 80% to coast on the 20%. There is recognition that about 20% of the population is driven to be productive or needs to work no matter what the others are doing. Zeitgeist actually says let them have their TV and games, leave them alone, and let them eat themselves to death. They believe like attracts like and that people choosing a looser lifestyle is dead end, serves no purpose, and thus will die a natural death. In such a situation they believe there is no desire to have children because there is no need for such interaction. These are people who do not want to be bothered by anything. These discussions are not written but orally explored as worse case scenarios.

The one group I know who succeeded was Murietta Hot Springs. These people formed a corporation and held shares according to the power to participate. The corporation owned the land. The share holders all had to have some money for the down payment and some skills that contributed to the community. The community was a non-profit retreat where people came to experience again living without TVS and Phones and radios. Regular schedules of interacting with nature and cleansing their bodies and minds. The share holders were also the employees of the corporation each having jobs contributing to the experience. All vegan cooking and teaching vegan cooking. Communal meals. Ritual using of the spas. Different kinds of body work and spiritual experience. Small homes or multifamily homes and at least in the beginning no children. No advertising. Word of mouth. In thing for celebrities to do. Highly successful for 30 years. Sold to another corporation of private resorts with each share holder receiving at least a million.

The last aspect of coming to community I tried was with my husband and other quite successful middle age adults. We joined Scott Peck of the Road Less Traveled community foundation. He began leading and training people how to come to community. Hundred's of thousands were poured into it. Another failure for the exact same reason. I never attended a weekend session where we did not spend the first half with five males jocking for leadership positions. It was truly a sophisticated form of mental masturbation. As far as I can see, we all pretended to have come to community so we could all get back to our "normal" lives.

This is my first thread. I have no idea about the rightness or the wrongness of it. I have the skin of an alligator and will take all comments as constructive criticism. This is my first chance to see how or if people will respond.

Part of my reason for coming here is to make decisions about how to take action. I believe the issue of manifesting money is not difficult if done in the right way, at the right time, for the right reasons. I think I could begin again if we were not having a physical calamity. That is what I am really trying to determine. It is logical if you knew the earth was going semi crack up--- to blow as much up as possible first. Only those who have the gold and something gold holders want survive. If this has happened before, they always choose wrong.

I have already wasted a million plus dollars trying to do it my way. Like Owens and a failure for the same reason. This time I lack money but still have the skills and knowledge it would take to survive. I think groups of around 36 could go off to some places and make it. I think like minded people could survive in the Postman scenario but not in Mad Maxx which will go back to the stone age.

If I get some response here, I would set up a scenario type game to play based on a reality I knew of.

Those of you who got this far, have my appreciation.

[bluestflame]

just glad you were able to retrieve your post , and thanks for sharing it ~☼~

[jeannacav]

Very interesting post, write4change,

I became hopeful for a completely different society when Alex Collier described Vissases's statement that he couldn't understand why anyone should pay to live on a planet they were born on.
Many of my neurons reset at that moment.

I too spent much of my life wanting to be part of a collective group.
I never got as far along as you did, but I did get far along enough to see that this kind of thing is at best tricky and usually just a failure.

After contemplating this completely out-of-the-box statement, I wanted to think about this topic again. (I gave up even thinking about it in the 90's)
Alex adds that on the Andromedan planet he was on, nobody needed anything and everything was available to anyone; and the children, as part of learning what there is to learn, made things in schools and provided the technological items necessary to the citizens.

It is intriguing to hear that on another planet people live in a communal manner without the usual ills that seem so natural here on this planet.


I do not have answers either.
Yet, I am enjoying going back to this intriguing subject.


So, for me, at least now, I have come to understand that the real problem is money or making a "value" judgment on something.
Being compensated for your time is the basis of a slave state and if we are going to move ahead, we must simply contribute from our passions and assume it will all fall into place.

I think we will have to re-train ourselves away from greed, because greed must be the natural expression of a slave who never has enough.


Thank you for this thread.
(I have become busy again and I may not be able to contribute more for a while, but I do like thinking about these things.)

jeanna

[truthseekerdan]

Interesting thread thank you, write4change!

When the power of unconditional love will overcome the need of money and self gratitude, the world will be a different place.
In the current paradigm most of humanity is not ready to come together as One due to its low consciousness level.
However, I'm positive that soon a change and a shift to a new paradigm will raise the humanity's consciousness to new higher levels where many things will be possible again.

Namaste :pray: ~ Dan

[write4change]

jeanna,

I read your reply a couple of times. I will try to address the issues directly that you kind of allude to.

One of the reasons why I am sure man wrote the bible is because it would bore a creator to death. Creating is a rush and it is also a deep satisfaction. On a simple level as a woman who gives birth screaming, crying, and cursing as soon as that baby is out and the monstrous contractions stop--we want to see what we have wrought. There is still pain and things to be done. They do not matter let me see what has evolved here. Unfortunately, for men they never get that experience or the one of being pregnant. I understand a lot of women love it. I hate it. There is never a time I don't feel like there is something else taking over my body. The only way it works well is to surrender to the process.

My pleasure in the child is seeing the world new again. Consciously experiencing what it is like to see and do for the first time. I am not into here follow this pattern I am teaching. I am not into honor thy father and mother and obey. I am just part of the process. But many people are because they were raised that way and their parents were raised that way etc. Most people do what they were taught until it stops working for them.

Anthropology says man was developed as he is today at least 100,000 years ago. Nothing changed until about 40,000 years ago. The why and how of that is still hotly contested. In taking the most likely theory---man had out of body experiences from eating hallucinogenic plants and that made him contemplate all kinds of things and art, music, cooperative strategic hunting, and concepts of god were born. The concepts of god gave man, not I think women, the desire to say we praise you, we bless you, we adore you. etc. I think women would on their own think god was moving on and too busy with his newest creations to hang around listening being praised and blessed. god craved experience not the same old same old.

Men are literally not surrendered to labor. They are into male bonding. They only do what women can't. All the hard tedious labor rather it is curing leather for clothes, grinding corn for meals, or raising teepees is women's work. Women do all the work involved in sustaining the tribe and thus have always had cooperative groups to get all the work done. Women's work in hunter gathering tribes cannot be completed individually. A skilled hunter can support a family with food but he cannot provide the shelter, childcare, take turns stuff that making clothes and all the other things require.

The hunt is dangerous etc. but it is fun. A lot of vets in the right setting will admit they never felt more alive than when they were in combat and their war buddies were buddies for life. No aspect of life is it now possible to be Jeremiah Johnson. You can look at him as the apex of time when all natural resources were available essentially for free but you still had to be skilled and knowledgeable to reap them. This is the only time on this planet that you could live an essentially stimulated and sensuous life with so little effort. Up until 1950, almost all forms of home entertainment or friendly socializing had to be created.

Meanwhile, the one place on the planet that was able to sustain the garden of Eden for about 4,000 years were the islands of Oceania. They didn't need clothes and they didn't have to work very hard to eat. They had a stable spiritual society until they were captured by the western man. Easter Island is an exception to the norm. As long as things were working for them, they did not change.

Is the one thing we can count on change? If it is, is that a big attribute of god. If god is constantly cocreating to reexperience the how and why of it like looking thru the eyes of his new creation would he just plop everyone down on a perfect planet and say enjoy? And if that always came with the gift of life, is it his responsibility to have to continually slap our hands to stop us from messing up his creation.

Looking historically we were given a beautiful delicate planet that fulfilled all our needs. No one messed it up but us. It got this way collectively and it can only be redeemed collectively. There is no avoiding you are part of the problem or part of the solution.

From following all the interviews and knowledge presented here, I am convinced that we still have all we need to solve our problems. The immensity of the problems now mean they can only be solved collectively. That begins on the simplest terms of every one starting to discuss what are you willing to give in order to survive? The 33 answer is that the stupid should perish and if you don't have the gold or the moxy or the knowledge or the skill to save yourself and your family you are stupid and deserve this to happen to you.

Those people who are visiting planets with no needs have yet to tell us how they got that way. Or if they sustained this throughout their evolution how they stayed that way. In Carl Sagan's book Contact the first question is how did your planet survive evolution?

There is no theology that encompasses god to me. god is the universe known and unknowable. one of the reasons for believing in god is being in awe of the intricate complex immensity of the universe. god in my understanding would not create without a plan. but like having any kind of children that you allow to be themselves--life is what happens when you were making your plans. so god like the many of us has surrendered to the ride of life.

I am sure there is both joy and blackness over all the good we have done and all the bad we have created. sitting down doing nothing is making a choice. Assume---the old ass out of u and me is possible. I may have waited too long out of my own personal disappointments to survive a catastrophe in the physical sense. then again necessity is the mother of invention. what better place than here to find new thoughts, new feelings, new understandings, and new inspiration? I can feel my vibrations working up, gearing up--it is a much better place than my apathy of the last ten years.

thank you so much for taking the time to write and giving me the impetus to write back.

[write4change]

Dan,

I hear you but I think any shift that takes place has to be consciously participated in. If the Ra material is any kind of validity--only 20% of us are worth harvesting. LOL

I had a guide tell me this planet resists love harder than they ever resist war.

It is difficult to give what you have never received or experienced. Lots of people will say they don't even believe in love. That sex is just another function like eating and sleeping. These are habitual patterns of thought that have to be broken.

I have gotten to the place where I trust almost no one. To change I have to reach out and open my heart--to essentially strangers. And I have to do it first. The only filter I am using is this site's stated purpose and mission.

An E ride of going with the flow! LOL

[Annie]

This is a wonderful post Write4change.Thank you for sharing it.Coming from South Africa,and spending a lot of my formative years in a rural farming community I have seen first hand how communal living can work,but not in an unstructured way.As you acknowledged there will always be a jostling for power at the top.One of the main reasons for the breakdown in communal settlements in first world countries is the way we are raised to think as individuals and believe in the greatness of ourselves usually before that of the group.A lot of this is due to the fact that we no longer have to struggle just to survive.Our lives no longer depend on the communal system working effectively for the greater good of the whole,but I have to admit that even in the smallest of African villages it is the woman who go out and tend the fields with their babies strapped to their backs while the men sit in front of their huts pondering the meaning of life...or bonding:)

[truthseekerdan]

Dan,

I hear you but I think any shift that takes place has to be consciously participated in. If the Ra material is any kind of validity--only 20% of us are worth harvesting. LOL

I had a guide tell me this planet resists love harder than they ever resist war.

It is difficult to give what you have never received or experienced. Lots of people will say they don't even believe in love. That sex is just another function like eating and sleeping. These are habitual patterns of thought that have to be broken.

I have gotten to the place where I trust almost no one. To change I have to reach out and open my heart--to essentially strangers. And I have to do it first. The only filter I am using is this site's stated purpose and mission.

An E ride of going with the flow! LOL

Hello to you write4change -- indeed it seems difficult to accept a change if we stay 'locked in the mind' which is the current state that most of us are in; however, this habit must be broken. Each one of us needs to understand that in order to see a change in the world, it has to start with the self first. Like a wise man said: "We must be the change you wish to see in the world".

What we believe produces experience and when we experience our existence only through what we believe, we may have inadvertently imagined uncertainty, which in turn has created fear. When we fully understand this, we begin to understand our inner domain and our whole reality begins to change. We start to realize that our happiness is not created as a result of certain conditions. Certain conditions are created as a result of our happiness.

Love (not talking about sex here ;)) in our life is not created as a result of certain conditions. Certain conditions are created as a result of our love. Compassion is not created as a result of certain conditions. Certain conditions are created as a result of our compassion, et cetera. If we did not have this understanding before, we probably only imagined certain things must occur in order for us to live a more meaningful life.

Love and blessings to you and yours,

Dan

[TWINNICK]

These are thoughts in considering the Zeitgeist movement. I felt it was too long for a comment and would not be seen by those who were interested in just the concepts of cooperative living.

There has never been a time when I have not been fascinated by the idea of cooperative living. I began mine with reading Little Women and Little Men which portrays it as a sort of extended family experience. When I was told by a teacher that Alcott's father was a commune leader under the auspices of Ralph Waldo Emerson. I started my research.

I still carry a small book of Emerson around in my purse. It fits in the palm of my hand and I have always vibrated with his vision as had my grandparents who quoted him all the time. How could someone so wise and so learned combined with other like minded people fail?

In the late 60s and early 70s in the Northern California area I joined several. Never for longer than 60 days. Mostly little ones of sharing work and expenses. Some partial with skills and food. And one big one for a final excruciating experience.

What I believe is true of all of them for failing even the old ones is the ongoing fight for leadership. There is always this drive for top down hierarchal power. My personal experience was that the women do all the work and the men do all the talking. The more educated the men the more complicated the simplest project.

I once watched 4 men and a major pick up truck with chains spend most of an entire day trying to remove a two foot in diameter tree stump. They trashed the yard, created a mud mess, repeatedly broke the chains, and practically destroyed the bumper and the pickup. This place at this time had a $35,000 Caterpillar like tractor. At the end of the day an older Hispanic woman wove the chains around the stump got on the tractor and pulled out the stump in about 5 minutes.

The men had a great time. They bond doing things side by side. (Women bond talking face to face.) Had they been successful, this would have been one of their war stories for all time. How I Beat the Tree Stump.

Emerson provided the money for the project. He did not want to live and work there. He did want it to be self sufficient. Granted work then was continuous and hard. Alcott's father if you read through the lines wanted to be the on site supervisor,do all of the talking and none of the work. The others wanted total equality and thus, everything that needed doing was an argument. Self sufficiency never occurred. Emerson got fed up and refused to supply any more money and everyone just left. This is typical of most small communes.

I lived in one in the north beach area of San Francisco where it was a bunch of young well paid entrance level professionals in the 70s who wanted to live in luxury and its perks and still save money. Getting in one of the old Victorian type town houses with six bedrooms and three baths, library, music room, and garden walk able to a lot of cool places, But there was never a willingness to spend the money for a really good housekeeper. The guys were really irresponsible. They wanted to eat but not really cook or clean. They always had mothers or maids to pick up after them and with women on the scene, it felt just like home. Dividing up chores by the week or month was always a stress scene. There was huge selfishness on the part of the guys who ate far more and resented paying a fair share for common food. The guys wanted their money to bond with other guys and scoring other women. The women wanted the money so they could put a down payment on their own home. So no matter how good it looked, the stress of actual living there undid the place. The communal pot (taxes) was always to be starved but the services and benefits desired (civilization) were most prevalent to those who had the balls to just take it. Women at that time were low on audacity levels.

In American history, the Utopian movements that had any kind of longevity were usually tied together in a common religious belief; like the shakers and the Amish. The Amish succeeded because the big farms remained private property worked by extended families with right of inheritance. But it is not all peace and love. James Mitchner's work The Novel tells the story of two Amish brothers who fought for 40 years since the day of their father's death til one of their own. Their fight destroyed families and communities. Only at the end of the book do you find out what they were fighting about because no one but the brothers really knew. They had a fight over their father's funeral as to whether or not it was permitted by their laws to wear suspenders. It comes as stunning revelation at the end of this book. You are amazed at the stupidity that has just been displayed and then you remember Einstein's quote about the infinite stupidity of mankind. This is hard to deal with in commune's without a huge bond of commitment.

At Stanford, I belonged to a group of young people who were all attached to the big faculty student relationships of the social science department. For a couple of years, these people did cooperative shopping when there was no thought of an internet. What we did was meet every three months as one big group for a whole day of everybody bring something festival and we tested food products and arranged to buy them direct. Because of the nature of California especially then you could drive to another totally different climate in one hour or so. Some of us went to wineries and bought wine for three months for 50 people. Some of us bought whole wheels of Jarlsberg cheese. Bought live pigs, chickens, sheep at from the farmers. Had him arrange to deliver them to local butchers. Bought extra and gave them to the butcher for butchering ours. Divided everything up among us that was staples. Alternated small groups going to farmers market on a weekly basis--they did not come to the cities then. Sharing the tasks.

My closest friends of my life were 4 other single mothers with children. Boy, were we outsiders then. We were all going to nursing school with really tuff hours. Had Friday afternoons off and we went from house to house cleaning each one. Trust me, this is an intimate experience. One would do the laundry, one the dusting and vacuuming. One cleaning and cooking in the kitchen and one in the yard. We did a lot of screaming, crying, cursing, and laughing while we did it. We finished up at the pizza parlor. Both a cleansing and energizing ritual. As far as I know this broke down only when we all graduated and had to move on. It was time consuming in some ways but I would do all this again if I found other people willing to do the same. That memory feels exactly like another dimension in time.

1972 was Stanford's last graduating nursing class. They shut it down during the height of the nursing shortage. 1968 was the implementation of medicare. Cal poly also shut down. That could be another diary.

The huge failure was Synanon. A take over of one city block manufacturing center on Army Steet in the Mission District of San Franciso. About three hundred people living together. Equal division of addicts, thugs, and felons with nuns, young business men and women, some older really wealthy patrons. Playing The Game which it was really called. To join you gave over your paycheck and got colored tokens to use in the communal store and cafeteria. You must weekly play the game at least once of shouting and cursing the truth at one another. Dietrich's vision was top down hierarchal; he would take all the money and gifts but really gave nothing back. It was his power trip. Came down almost at once when sex became a male right.

The biggest known historical failure is almost never taught. I began my education as an American History Major. I had 56 undergraduate semester units. It was a big surprise to me that I almost knew nothing about real history and have spent a lifetime discovering. To this day, I am amazed at how much is known in archeology that is still not taught but is there in front of our faces. Love the interview of the guy with all the small ancient artifacts no one wants to see or explain. (I am bad with names because of my brain injury. What sticks with me is deeply embedded knowledge. I was lucky to have an extensive education 30 years ago. I can build on it. The knowledge weaves but the names don't.)

The big historical failure was the Owens experiment. Owens was a wealthy owner, manufacturer, financier from England who bought a whole town outside of Philadelphia. The people he bought from all moved west. He obtained a complete town with stores, churches, schools, bookbinding, black smith, animals, livestock, 3,000 acres of productive land. He brought over ship loads of English people who needed a new start. These people had skills and experience. It was a complete failure in that no one really wanted to work in what they perceived to have no real stake in. Once here, they would rather go out to the frontier and cut their own homestead. The one thing Owen would not give up was owning the land so he could sell and get his money back.

Ironically, this has been repeated in Israel. The kibbutz's only survived with huge state subsidies. The third generation of those born on this land shared in this manner have been democratically slowly unwinding the legal ties that bind. There is a documentary about them. What sticks in my mind is a woman at 40 who is so pleased to at last own her own car. The kibbutz's were democratically created and democratically destroyed.

What is interesting about discussions in the Zeitgeist movement is the willingness to talk about allowing the 80% to coast on the 20%. There is recognition that about 20% of the population is driven to be productive or needs to work no matter what the others are doing. Zeitgeist actually says let them have their TV and games, leave them alone, and let them eat themselves to death. They believe like attracts like and that people choosing a looser lifestyle is dead end, serves no purpose, and thus will die a natural death. In such a situation they believe there is no desire to have children because there is no need for such interaction. These are people who do not want to be bothered by anything. These discussions are not written but orally explored as worse case scenarios.

The one group I know who succeeded was Murietta Hot Springs. These people formed a corporation and held shares according to the power to participate. The corporation owned the land. The share holders all had to have some money for the down payment and some skills that contributed to the community. The community was a non-profit retreat where people came to experience again living without TVS and Phones and radios. Regular schedules of interacting with nature and cleansing their bodies and minds. The share holders were also the employees of the corporation each having jobs contributing to the experience. All vegan cooking and teaching vegan cooking. Communal meals. Ritual using of the spas. Different kinds of body work and spiritual experience. Small homes or multifamily homes and at least in the beginning no children. No advertising. Word of mouth. In thing for celebrities to do. Highly successful for 30 years. Sold to another corporation of private resorts with each share holder receiving at least a million.

The last aspect of coming to community I tried was with my husband and other quite successful middle age adults. We joined Scott Peck of the Road Less Traveled community foundation. He began leading and training people how to come to community. Hundred's of thousands were poured into it. Another failure for the exact same reason. I never attended a weekend session where we did not spend the first half with five males jocking for leadership positions. It was truly a sophisticated form of mental masturbation. As far as I can see, we all pretended to have come to community so we could all get back to our "normal" lives.

This is my first thread. I have no idea about the rightness or the wrongness of it. I have the skin of an alligator and will take all comments as constructive criticism. This is my first chance to see how or if people will respond.

Part of my reason for coming here is to make decisions about how to take action. I believe the issue of manifesting money is not difficult if done in the right way, at the right time, for the right reasons. I think I could begin again if we were not having a physical calamity. That is what I am really trying to determine. It is logical if you knew the earth was going semi crack up--- to blow as much up as possible first. Only those who have the gold and something gold holders want survive. If this has happened before, they always choose wrong.

I have already wasted a million plus dollars trying to do it my way. Like Owens and a failure for the same reason. This time I lack money but still have the skills and knowledge it would take to survive. I think groups of around 36 could go off to some places and make it. I think like minded people could survive in the Postman scenario but not in Mad Maxx which will go back to the stone age.

If I get some response here, I would set up a scenario type game to play based on a reality I knew of.

Those of you who got this far, have my appreciation.


And this is why I like living alone.

Great post by the way but I can't see myself putting up with all the BS and drama's.

I like peace and quiet and solitude, and minimal testosterone LOL.

..Nick..

[doodah]

Dear write4change,

Thank you for this thread. There's nothing like actually going out there and experiencing it!

I've spent some time visiting around to a few intentional communities, looking for a home, so to speak and I've been very disappointed - but I've also had a wakeup call, I think, a reality check. It seems to me now that wherever you go, people still have the same problems and they bring their problems, their baggage so to speak, into those intentional communities.

I've yet to find a community composed of "whole" people, "healed" people who have done their personal work, understand themselves deeply, and are working toward actualizing a higher spiritual state. I've yet to find that combined with the willingness to do the hard work of self sufficiency. I guess I've discovered I'm looking for both aspects. Self-realized people don't care about power, they care about getting things done that need to be done, and understand that solutions can come from ANYBODY. As long as everyone is working toward the same goal, leadership can be fluid; structure can be the structure that WORKs. There are so many things that just don't matter, artificial divisions that are piffle and nonsense. I'm still running into men who won't let me make the campfire! How absurd is that? It doesn't really matter who does what - everyone needs to have many skills - as long as there are some common goals and genuine values motivating everyone at very deep levels. Those things matter... like living in harmony with the planet!

I agree with Nick! At this point it's a lot easier and more fun to live alone, except there are truly times when it would be nice to have many hands to do the work! That's why I'd kind of like to live in a village, in my own hut, separate but together in common purpose. Dream on, I guess...

Good luck to us all!

[doodah]

oops, forgot to say... "structure can be the structure the WORKS" harmoniously. I didn't mean TPTB kind of "works", where it only works for themselves and everyone else be damned. Nothing on this planet is working very well at the moment; there are too many sick and unhappy people, plants, animals, environments, etc., sure signs that it ISN'T working right.

[9eagle9]

What Nick Said.

Cept I add in estrogen drama's too. And I have encountered the same thing over and over in loose spiritual communities where people didn't live on site but were supposed to work towards making the community work. The retail, gardening, healing end of it. This was mostly women, the men were shunted off into a corner with their thumb up their @55, everyone was for, some reason, afraid to ask the men to do or contribute anything yet let all this resent towards them build. Because they wouldn't let them do anything. ...lol.

And the women struggled to compete. Who was better psychic, better healer, most popular, more spiritual, backstabbing, gossip. Because I have no problems speaking up it was somehow unofficially decided I was community mediator.

These are things I mediated.

"She's stealing my power." She put a curse on me. "She's using black magick in the herb garden"

I left. And I opened my own lodge. Everyone was all gung ho about having a lodge in the country where everyone would contribute.

First order of business was erect sweat lodge.

This turned into > Hey lets us know when the sweat lodge is ready and we'll show up.

Food? I have to bring a dish to pass? What I can't run up the electric bill. Aren't you paying for it out of all our donations.

What donations? If you scream about bringing a pot of potato salad I should expect you are donating?

Closed my doors real fast. I wasn't their parent's house. This wasn't my idea of community either. Waiting on people hand and foot and resolving their paranoia. They aren't integrated in themselves to oneness let alone be shunted into a crowd of other un-integrated people.

If anyone has any ideas I am all ears but I'm basically out here in seclusion to get away from Communities...lol. Drama comes from testosterone and estrogen equally, I'm fair about that anyway although everyone maintains its just because I'm evil because I won't play the game.

However someone may wish to google Holocracy.

Let me know what you think.

[jeannacav]

What I think will change this kind of problem is the total lack of money and working for a living.

I think we do not know how to do this at all and I would like to see the resources of the planets where this works first, but it is a hunch I have that this is workable when we are not slaves any more.

I saw one community before I moved from Massachusetts.
This was interesting because you had to make your own living and create your own building in order to live there, so in this way the reliance on the group as a financial net was not there.
and in a way the posturing for power was not as evident either. (I never lived there so this part could be wrong.)
This was a long standing home community for many people.
It was a great place for vegetarian farmers and natural builders who had a day-gig.

I remember they told us they arrived at every decision by consensus.
It means everyone agreed to the final decision = unanimous.
I think that is amazing.

For what it is worth,

jeanna

[NancyV]

Thanks for sharing write4change! I'm enjoying everyone's perspective and experiences.

I have had a few experiences with communal type living and had done a lot of reading on intentional communities, Utopian ideals, etc. when I was in my mid teens in the 60's. I actually thought it would be possible and a good idea, but I had to come to the conclusion that it was not workable. The problem is not men, nor is it women, it's human nature. Men and women just deal with the hierarchical and territorial tendencies differently.

The worst experience was when my 2nd husband and I invited 4 families to live on our 50 acres in Oregon. We were a part of a group who followed an Indian guru, so we all had the same thoughts that we were special... saved.... you know, the typical self righteous "we're right and everyone else is ignorant" mantra. LOL..

People were supposed to help in exchange for their rent free living space. We all lived in separate buildings so that was not a problem, but I was irked when some of them did very little compared to what my husband and I did. When I asked some of them to do things they would get annoyed at times. There was a lot to do since we had planted an acre garden and had 5 horses.

I finally realized that living with others in cooperation and harmony was not possible for ME, and I didn't think it would work for many other people either. Certainly men are very different from women and I would not change them at all. I love men the way they are. I actually have more problems with women because I prefer how much more straight forward and uncomplicated many men are and I also feel that they are generally more trustworthy.

If you are a loner or introvert, as I am, then you don't really WANT to cooperate with other people. You just want to do things your own way when you want to and not be responsible to or for others. Of course I always took great care of my children and husband-children. Men love to have women cater to them and I don't mind treating them like a king. It's a little game I play. If you play the game right you always get your way without too many arguments. I never expected or wanted my husband to do housework, laundry, dishes or much of anything in that realm, unless they wanted to and did it on their own without urging. Then if I really needed their help they were always willing and happy to help. It's not that I am a passive woman, in fact I can be rather aggressive and opinionated, but I do know how to treat men and I know what they need from a woman in order to feel valued and cherished.

So I gave up any thoughts of living in some sort of ideal Utopian cooperative community and I think it's basically naive to think it will work. I've never seen it work for long. People need to feel in control of their own lives, which is why communism and socialism do not work well. Even if a community looks like it's working I bet if you lived there you would see a lot of resentment beneath the surface. It's difficult enough to live in a single family without adding other families into the formula.

Nancy :)

[write4change]

Hi, you all, I was surprised to find this revived. I want to first start with my failures.

With the first Gulf War in 1990, I began having huge internal feelings that everyone was soon going to hit a brick wall and how could I get my family to survive? We had moved from LA to Las Vegas in 1988, we were part of the first wave. We sold our LA house for $450,000 dollars all cash and bought for $243,000 cash a fully furnished model in The Lakes of Las Vegas, the first man made lake there. It was an architecturally award winning house. Of all our houses, it was my daughter's favorite.

It was two story with high ceiling living room and very expensive to heat and cool. I wanted a sitting room in the master bedroom and a deck leading out of it, a solarium facing the lake. We did all the right things by the book to get it approved by a severe homeowner's association. The first thing we learned was how badly these houses were built and ours as a model had to be one of the best. To put these houses up fast and cheap, they were essentially make of Styrofoam and chicken wire. When the mortgage is done most of these homes will be too--planned disposable housing. In order to build we had to steel pier. The other thing I wanted was insulation. I am facing west with new addition and the sun is hugely intense from 10 AM to 7 PM in the summer. And the law says you only have to insulate to R 13. I insulated the entire addition to R 32 everywhere and special double pained insulate windows. The result was instantaneousness dropping of my air conditioning bill by at lest 500 a month. This is 1988 gives you some idea how draining all those Las Vegas houses are to the environment.

We truly did not realize when we were planning this that we would block the view of the single story next to us belonging to an old retired couple. Since they were only one they could not mount any kind of protest at the homeowner's meeting. We never attended and hired people to do all this.
Trust me, the undying enmity of one person can make your life miserable. But had I known I would have done it anyway, thinking in the grand scheme of things it was not a big deal and they would get over it. They had three free sides to their house and our extention only meant they could not see across the lake when they were in the breakfast nook.

My husband had represented as a tax attorney CPA some major players for over 30 years. He had commuted to Vegas from LA all that time spending 3 days there and 4 days in LA. We decided to reverse it when our five year old daughter attended a birthday party for one of her classmates in Bell Aire. You drove thru two sets of gates. The party was in the pool house which was 5,000 sq feet. I never saw the main house. You should have seen the goodie bag! My daughter is just gleeful. She says to me Mommy, I am going to marry Eric, the birthday boy. So I say well he certainly has your attention---why do want to marry him. And she says because he's filthy rich. I do not speak that way--not only is he rich--but filthy rich. At five we take our daughter to her first visit to a psychiatrist because she is "dieting." She does not have an ounce of fat on her body. According to the pediatrician she is in the low quartile of her age and height for weight. She would flex her knee and pat her calf and it wiggled which was proof to her she was fat. We were sending her to a preschool that cost 8500 per year not counting temple dues in Beverly Hills. I could write a book about what I observed that first year. I was born poor white trailer trash, and this was not the way I wanted my daughter raised and I could already see peer pressure was going to have a much bigger influence than I. Thus, the move to Las Vegas.

From private to public school, they wanted to skip my daughter three grades which I knew she emotionally could not handle. I said no and the next year enrolled her back into Jewish private school where she was once again average.

I take her to a sleep over with a girlfriend who has a maid, chauffeur, and housekeeper and parents who are almost never home and around the world. I again learn to feel sorry for the poor little rich girls. When I come to pick her up, I hear screaming and carrying on and I run up the huge double ended stairway to the kids room where she has her own bath and bedroom size closet with electric rotating shelves. In the bathroom, both girls have wet wash clothes and are slapping each other with them. One is saying I am the richest and the other is saying I am the prettiest. I cannot believe this and I start my speech of peace and harmony and universal souls. And I say, you never see other women cat fighting like this way and they look at me and say Chrystal and Alexis--Dallas--do this all the time.

In the two years, we live there I watch the clear skies turn to smog and junk like Mexico City which also is totally surrounded by mountains and has an inverted system. I watch all the golf courses go up which is worse on water than a man made lake. I watch the Hoover damn and lake drop a foot a year.

My husbands knows and has friends who are really friends with Steve Winn who has just announced his plans for the Mirage with huge water usage and waste. He is going to put dolphins in the desert. I get 5 minutes with him at a break in the big basketball game. I beg him to reconsider and give him a quick thematic presentation of what he could do with sand and the environment and imagination by switching from an Oasis in the desert to Xanadu of mysticism. He essentially laughs in my face. One of their big R and D was spending three million to produce a neon sign that was black in the daytime and white at night.

They bring in rare and exotic plants from all over the world to put a mini jungle in the entrance inside the Mirage. They refused to do silk plants etc even though they were advised that natural plants would not make it. They did it any way. The plants all died. And they had to rush the silk ones by bringing over the Japanese to make them on the premises. I do not know how the dolphins felt about living in the desert and totally away from the sea unlike SeaWorld which is bad enough. For them the sun no longer exists.

I have now been married for seven years as the trophy wife never really understanding what that means before. Making the story now quick and simple. My husband buys the oldest casino on the strip without asking permission of the jewish casino mafia feeling he has worked for them so long thinking he has earned his chance. Wrong. I tell him he is breaking the cardinal rule of business because he knows nothing about a casino. He bought it out of probate because two of the three partners were dead and the heirs could come to no agreement so the court put it up for sale. It is preapproved for demolition and for reconstruction and already pre leased. My husband says it is not a casino but a real estate deal. I say a casino is a casino is a casino. I was right and he was wrong. First, thing that happened was all previous approval withdrawn and we had to begin all over again. Suddenly, there is a WWII fuel storage facility underground that no one ever knew about before. We spend 50,000 a month on a gaming attorney alone. We are going to go bankrupt with this. At the last moment, my husband sells at a considerable loss to a New York syndicate who is fronting for the current mayor.

To survive this mess, I convince my husband to at least buy us a house in San Antonio where I originated and where my public education was good enough to stand up to Stanford. There is no income tax, homesteading is still inviolate, and while we are going to have to live on 30% of what his income was in San Antonio that 30% put us in the upper 2% bracket.

I have to go out for a while and what I see is that stories are better broken down in sequels. So I will leave this for a while and then tell my Texas tall tale. I think people from foreign countries may find this more interesting than Americans.

[9eagle9]

OMG that's incredible...

[doodah]

9eagle9: This wasn't my idea of community either... They aren't integrated in themselves to oneness let alone be shunted into a crowd of other un-integrated people.

Exactly. So how do we find integrated people who want to form community? Shall we do an experiment? Start another thread, make up a questionnaire, and see what responses we get? I'd be rather curious, myself... Here are some questions I'd ask:
1. Do you have any experience handling farm animals? If not, are you willing to learn? (This would eliminate the "Oooo the goats are too smelly" types.)
2. Are you willing to teach others everything you know how to do? (This would weed out those who cling too much to the idea that their knowledge makes them superior.)
3. Do you have confidence that if the world imploded and you were the only one left, you'd be able to make quite a good run at making it on your own? (Very important question, I think. This is not about who's the toughest but who might be the most creative problem solvers.)

This is kind of fun... anyone else want to contribute questions?

[write4change]

Doodah,

I think this is a good idea and would make a good parallel thread. It would also do faster what I am trying to do here. I have decided to keep this thread going to some extant. Because experience does count for something. I spent over a million dollars learning this. I believe as it progresses you will see why. Because if you just start at the beginning thinking commitment, understanding, sufficient funds, etc. will allow you to succeed--it is because you do not know why other people failed.

Had I known the depths of the Owens project, I probably would have gone ahead but there are things that i would have done differently because I was warned.

On a simple one to one level this is looking at the macro level of assessing and collecting taxes for the mutual good of society/civilization.

And your last question is about the most important.

After I lay out all my failures, I will then draw a scenario that was actually possible and my experience with it on the net. Now I know it was a good thing not to have started that one. And I will also offer two other scenarios that are completely different that I don't know so much about. When I get there. We will break off into three threads of creation and let people discuss and ad their ideas. At least that is my plan for now. If nothing else, it gives us more stuff from new people to replace the Charles material if he is gone.

One of the things we might discuss is closing the threads just so the 33 cannot see how really creative and focused we can become. But I guess that is also an illusion as nothing on the net is really secret in any way. LOL

Thanks for joining me here and go for the animal one I will write some animal stories periodically because I have lots about how we learn from animals.

[truthseekerdan]

For those interested please read below:

With his scientific and business background Ivan Stein from Los Angeles is a grounded but still very spiritual person. He envisions the potential dangers that might occur on Earth around December 2012 and tells us how to prepare for this major shift. He also reveals some details about a project of creating a big sustainable community that might also be a raw model for the future society. This is certainly a video to watch for all conscious human beings.

www.projecttristar.net


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sB5-WY6e_2M

[write4change]

A synthesis of the above posted obstacles:

1. People who want to join communes on a whole want as much as possible with giving as little as possible. People who can make it independently do so.

2. These people are also seeking relief from responsibility or making judgment that directly impact themselves. They always want a fall back of some one else to blame.

3. These people are not whole integrated people and we already know that a half a person plus a half a person does not make one whole person but still equals two broken people.

4. It is better to be alone than endure high drama screwed up relationships.

check, check, check, check We are all in agreement of the fundamentals of failure.

Next up continuing the story of my failures.

[doodah]

On a simple one to one level this is looking at the macro level of assessing and collecting taxes for the mutual good of society/civilization.

w4c... I'd prefer to not go into any community with the word "taxes" in our vocabulary. If we're going to shift the paradigm, don't take taxes or any concept of taxes with you, please. Words are important; they encapsulate concepts. If you're going to bust open the box, take chicken soup with you, not taxes LOL

[write4change]

Truthseekerdan,

I cannot thank you enough for posting the Stein explanation. There is nothing I disagree with and I share parallel experiences in many ways. I have not clicked on his presentation yet but I will after writing this.

It makes me more convinced I was brought here for a reason. Had I met him or his work sooner, I would have gone there. My instant reaction is that while he is right in everything he says on this clip, the universe is going to send multiple ideas of cocreation to insure the survival of diversity. One of the things I would fear from such a big group is its visibility. Having not yet read their plans, those of us not going to the underground cities and survive will be met by those people once they emerge and they will emerge with everything that has already failed. They will go for the big groups first.

I have two thoughts on the underground cities: I think I know people who think they will go there and these people generally dislike and distrust one another. Imagine them living underground for a couple of years together? Based on some things found, this may have been tried in the ancient past and failed for the same reason: these people could never form community. Thus, my goal is to take 36 somewhere. And to enable other groups of around that number to do the same.

Learning from his knowledge and mine will be all good. Like him even though I am old, I was born for this and I have seen myself active and happy surprisingly healthy at 95 so if I do this right I get another manifestation in this lifetime. I have already lived three and have been actively looking at how I would choose. If I die no big deal, I died trying and I would like to leave some stuff to those who might make the future. All forms of knowledge.

I mentioned Steve Winn by name because he recently did a round of interviews on CNN and is one of the destroyers now telling other people how they must live in austerity. BS This man was raised as the son of a liquor store owner. He has limited education and fancies himself as a self made man instead of someone who used Mike Milken with junk bond letters of credit to finance his original fantasies. He is the classic case of not what you know but who you know and is too stupid to know what he does not know. Mike Milken made a billion dollars in illegal fees. He was fined 400 million by the SEC and he did 2 years in minimal security jail. Raise your hand if you would go to jail for 2 years if you could keep 600 million dollars. He was a test case to see what the American people would tolerate as financial fraud. After him came the S and L debacle which was people in the know getting monstrous loans without even having a feasibility study while those not in the know carried on their normal business practices and were destroyed by the crooks who then bought their projects for pennies on the dollar.

What Steiner alludes to but does voice is that the PTB created this financial mess knowing this was coming and used a lot of this disappeared money to build these underground facilities etc. Their last plan is that since much of China may survive: is to kill them off with war as a final solution to the Anglo Saxon Mission.

Small prepared groups might sustain themselves long enough for the big guys to finally finish each other off. That is my goal.

I am off to read his stuff and will be back and continue my story because it does show both sides now. And for the first time I realize how different this site is and I feel safe here. When I first came I want to bring tons more people immediately but after hanging out here---Stein and others have been around a while putting this information out there. Now is the time to act but it does not require a spotlight. One of the things we know is that in the past highly spiritual people were highly secretive and for just reasons. I do not know if that is a good thing or not this time around but it bares thinking about.

Again my deep appreciation for your very informative post that is so appropriate now and in this place.

Doodah, I hope you start your animal thread. If you do PM me.

[write4change]

Doodah,

I hear what you say about taxes. the reason I put that there is the ridiculous way we have gotten here financially in this country because no one wants to pay taxes. Taxes alone is not the issue -- it is what do you get for them.

Most middle class Americans given the reality of 50% in taxes for free education, free childcare, universal health care, and a months vacation and sick leave would be by far happier.

[modwiz]

I think groups of around 36 could go off to some places and make it. I think like minded people could survive in the Postman scenario but not in Mad Maxx which will go back to the stone age.

The right people and the right climate. The closer you are to a year round growing climate that does not threaten an minimally/unclad body with hypothermia the less you need to depend on technology. Eskimo parkas and mukluks are a technology you would die without.

Climate is really important to keep stress low and joy high.

[John White]

Cracking stuff write4change: nothing like wisdom from experience. I would definitely like to discuss it with some of my friends

There is already a lot of material here, so just some initial thoughts:

I've never felt drawn to the "go off over the horizon and live in a perfect community" dream... some sense in me tells me that it doesn't matter where I go, I take me with me. There are certain intangible links to community that are hard to forge from scratch.... especially from intellectual ideas rather than environmental need... whoever we are we have got there by being who we were before. And there is all sorts of set pathways and behaviours that make it a struggle to beat our own past behaviours to live in a new way

Your observations about men are so amusing they must be accurate (or is it so accurate they are amusing?) LOL yes we just need something useful to go off and do and keep us out the way so we can't mess everything that's important up.... perhaps men are god's way of making sure women don't have the spare time to get bored? We can make quite decent gardeners and craftsmen so its not a complete loss

OK, moving along.... my focus therefore, being as its not finding a "perfect" community, is reform of the broken community I've found myself in... I see the times ahead as about the challenge of transition.... its generally a truism that adults over the age of 30 find fundamental change very challenging.... they might be able to adapt to a certain extent, but really changing their patterns is a tough one. Transition therefore means there needs and limitations need to be considered while allowing social change to occur. Young adults are a different matter, and children, especially under 11, are the real hope. I consider these issues a lot, and its promising where I am, we are moving towards sustainability and resilience... its taken the old consensus reality to break up for that to start to come through though, and other towns are far further behind. I'm very aware we are on an event curve... if we can't make the curve, a lot of people are going to suffer and die. I'm committed to doing all I can to avoid that. Some think its not possible and try to look ahead... I understand that, but I also understand that considering disaster (preferably postman to mad max, agreed) inevitable is also feeding disaster in that we didn't place our energy into heading it off but in surviving that... no judgement there, it is a genuinely tough choice and people must follow their hearts. I believe we can see what is important, care for the old, nuture the young, and live usefully as adults... if we can release what is toxic and unhealthy and holding us back.... chiefly greed and self pity... in this I must trust to consciousness as my ally

Anyway, this post will do for making a start:) looking forward to learning more

John

[write4change]

Okay, I am getting revvvvved up. Guys like to do the talking etc. They bond by working side by side. They bond with women by talking or making love face to face which to them is both being vulnerable and being threatened. We note these things because they will have to be dealt with. If you believe there is a geological or galactic event coming on the magnitude of what appears to be past history you will not survive with out coming to community. We need to know what each of us does well and bring that to bare while we brain storm with others.

When I reviewed Stein's site I realized that I had run into this in the last 18 months, and I felt I would not be selected. One of the things, I have personally learned is that you only take people on who bring stuff on their plate to the table. In using his recalculator it would cost at least a million to build his way for 36 people. People are going to have to bring a least 100,000 to join his group. Consensus is bonded by having a stake in it.

I want to be able to do it faster and cheaper. He has been doing this for a decade. It is only recently that I realized there would a physical event prior to this I thought it would be total economic and political collapse which I felt I could survive. Getting totally subterranean requires thinking.

So guys to the site: where would you go. I have checked out some place in Ecuador where a small American Intelligentsia have gone and I think they will survive. If they are not part that faces three days in the sun. that third of the earth burns to a crisp. Does anyone have any idea if they know where that is going to be? Can it be researched? Three days in the sun with 30 degree increase in heat would be tough. I have felt 120 once in Vegas area but not for long. Do you want to survive in this country or any country? Then Ecuador might still be a really good choice. And it would take a year to get all the paper work done for many.

What I had come up with was building housing like some of these earth ships I have seen on this site. I have some plans and it is on the internet. Some Japanese students built one in 24 hours. I have to hunt to post it. But before you see it--- think in terms of filling up tubes about two feet in diameter with a mixture of dirt and cement and then winding them up and around like a beehive. Natural insulation against both the heat and cold. If I was to go to Ecuador I think they would work because those area survived in the past. Unique, cheap, and can be very beautiful and flexible. Women sculptors tend to thinks in terms of additive sculpture. Like taking chicken wire and building a basic shape and then putting clay on it and molding the clay. Not carving something out of stone.

18 wheel shipping containers are now cheap. Could you buy some of those and then mound lots of dirt over them. Could you dig out the earth and then set them down in the holes and then mound over them.

The kind of people attracted to my kind of thinking will be bootstrappers. We might have made and lost money in the past. But everybody who is not going down in the government corporation cities has to be into completely changing the paradigm.

I wanted to throw out some different ways of thinking before I get back to the problems. Stein in Utah is not having any problems because he is building while underground--he is still building in the corporate manner. It is just the corporate culture of thinking is different. I think everything has to be different to succeed.

One of the things I know about the states, is doing anything none corporate immediately attracts suspiciousness and resistance. Everything has to begin in the states with acknowledging that and being prepared to cope. There is almost no where that you can build anything without permits, regulation, etc. That is one of the things I got focused on getting around.

One his site he talks about new fangled energy sources. Out of my frame of reference. You guys need to check it out or hold out to the universe we find some people who are interested in checking it out.

Japan is not going to make it at all but I have read that they have the best solar cells around. My inclination would be to pick up some young Japanese who are interested in this and have them bring their knowledge or their solar panels. Bury the panels during the incident and dig them up afterward. How far is electro magnetic ism going to penetrate the earth?

What we have is Wade Frazier and Brian O'Leary for real consultation if we get to seriously doing this. So these are things you think about in your mind while I continue this story.

[9eagle9]

QUOTE: doodah" This wasn't my idea of community either... They aren't integrated in themselves to oneness let alone be shunted into a crowd of other un-integrated people.

Exactly. So how do we find integrated people who want to form community?

The same old tired response. We have to begin to change inside of ourselves first. ...lol. True though.

I've always viewed this as 'If I can become as whole as possible, its going to vibrate out and I will attract wholer people." So I still have a wound in me somewhere that attracts co dependency even if I am not a co dependent myself. I finally determined I NEED to help people (for the wrong reasons) regardless of all other circumstances so I draw in needy people. Why I need to help people is the wound i have to fix. It's not related to need at all its expressed that way. It's actually a guilt wound. So clearing out that sort of clutter helps a lot. For everyone. Not that the expectation is you can only join the community if whole, but perhaps put out the goal that the community will draw in people who are willing to integrate and learn to be whole? Doing core belief work within the community to achieve this would bring the community closer together as wounds are shared and healed.

As I write this I am realizing that working communties of old, like the Native Americans had a centralized person--a medicine person-to help people fix their 'spirits' on an emotional and mental level. I would suggest that any community have the same sort of resource. They also served as an impartial mediator. A very good medicine person is not going to pamper people's egos but compell them to wrestle it .

Shall we do an experiment? Start another thread, make up a questionnaire, and see what responses we get? I'd be rather curious, myself... Here are some questions I'd ask:
1. Do you have any experience handling farm animals? If not, are you willing to learn? (This would eliminate the "Oooo the goats are too smelly" types.)
2. Are you willing to teach others everything you know how to do? (This would weed out those who cling too much to the idea that their knowledge makes them superior.)
3. Do you have confidence that if the world imploded and you were the only one left, you'd be able to make quite a good run at making it on your own? (Very important question, I think. This is not about who's the toughest but who might be the most creative problem solvers.)


This is kind of fun... anyone else want to contribute questions?

Excellent idea! Also are people willing to learn from others? Will also weed out the 'all-knowing' who come for the ego stroke.

[9eagle9]

The right people and the right climate. The closer you are to a year round growing climate that does not threaten an minimally/unclad body with hypothermia the less you need to depend on technology. Eskimo parkas and mukluks are a technology you would die without.

Climate is really important to keep stress low and joy high.

This has given me a lot to think about. Ideally a more temperate climate makes a lot of sense for the reasons you stated. After living in Michigan all my life I'd love a climate where you didn't feel like you were living in a cave six months out of the year. Very hard to keep the vibe up. Then I look at it from the personal angle of 'I know my environment.' It's relatively hostile climate here from December to March, and just plain unsuitable for growing November to April. One has to slam down In all other respects though, in more temperate I know where the blue berries are, the black berries, the medicinal and food plants, where the natural sources of water are. I think my biggest fear is that I'd move to an unfamiliar environment where the flora is entirely different and not be able to navigate with any sort of confidence. Of course I'd be willing to learn, but in the mean time would be more of a burden than a contribution.

Or just fear of shifting from my comfort (confidence) level.

[doodah]

Sorry I haven't been here, I got sucked into the Charles vortex again, with Bill answering questions live tonight.

9eagle... if I may suggest... if you're observant of nature (as you seem to be), you can learn a new environment in a year, going through all the seasons. I don't think you'd be any more of a burden than the rest of us! We'd all be learning.

I have to say this right off and I hope it doesn't scare anyone... I'm pretty sure I'm not from this planet. It took me FOREVER to be able to ground myself here, as nothing about this planet has ever made any sense to me. I'm an artist, therefore a tool user. I'm very skilled with "mens' tools" and prefer all the non-electric ones. I was finally able to make a connection to this planet through beauty. For me, there is beauty everywhere, so I can acclimate myself anywhere and I don't put any limitations on choice of a site.

Getting the land is the real question. Part of me leans toward Maine which is underpopulated and there's lots of land. Of course, 9eagle, Maine has a lot of the same characteristics as Michigan, but as I read the possible turning of the Earth if a crustal shift happens (per the Zetas), Maine would become more temperate. It's a big gamble, putting any credance in those kinds of projections at this point, but I do find myself holding those thoughts in the back of my mind.

Also, I've thought about aligning myself with the Lakota. They've declared independence from the US, rescinded all treaties. Whether they're inviting outsiders to join them, I'm not sure, although I thought I read somewhere that they're extending tribal membership to any who want to join them. Their territories are in that very harsh weather zone - the Dakotas, Montana - not sure of all of it.

w4c... Last I checked, Montana was the only state still allowing squatter's rights. That is, you can claim land by living on it. At present you have to live there 6 months out of the year, but what we're talking about would be permanent. Of course, after it's claimed, there may at present be land taxes, I haven't checked on that.

Did you say Texas has no land taxes? As far as I can figure, the paying of land taxes is the only reason a community would need money - and after it all crashes and infrastructure falls, even that would not be needed.

I've also looked into Ecuador a little. Great climate, but there are those volcanoes... [this doesn't close the discussion, it's just a thought!]

John White... how long have you been with your community? Can you share your experience with us?

[w4c, I didn't really want to start an animals thread just now and divert from these beginning discussions. It's just that I know we will need animals and animal handlers wherever we go. Particularly in colder climates, we will have to have animal protein sources to survive.]

w4c, you being the thread leader here, when you think we've accumulated enough questions, maybe we could break up some of these questions and have various of us get some answers? Turn this into a working group? We need a lot of information!

Onward...

[9eagle9]

The projected new equator is shown as smack dab right over me so i may be getting used to new flora regardless if I like it or not ;)

[TigaHawk]

I believe in the Zeitgeist movement as well.

But i honestly believe, it would be useless to embark on something like that unless the world underwent some sort of change, or realisation, that just because we're human, and we can push others smaller than us around - that it does not make us superior or them inferior.

How do you expect people to leave their current way of running things when they loose everythign they worked their greasy little fingers to get? When they still have their current mindset.

[write4change]

Okay doodah,

You have inpsired me to write now. I have had a terrible night in the sense of really going be careful what you ask for in case you might get it.

Yesterday, was really the first time I asked me: do you really believe you that there is a geophysical catastrophe coming? And the answer was yes. Up to now I have always asked lots of others and looked for consensus. And I wanted to believe those who said no. With no to that I can handle anything. So if the answer is yes-----

If I were offered a place in the underground cities with people I think I know who will go there would I accept? And the answer is no. I have lived in isolation and have made no attempt to publicly tell my story because I am done with those kind of people. It took me almost a lifetime to really get that Dick Cheney could choose to be Dick Cheney and that he believed he has the right to do whatever necessary to manifest his vision.

I am not a channeler. I do not go to channelers. I do not believe most channelers. I have experienced huge synchronicity from and for other people thru channelers. What channeling that has happened to me for myself by myself I display as---- that was a really great dream experience. I usually channel backwards wanting to know something. After I have worked that out finally--I usually immediately find or read something that indicates my big ephiphany is old hat even if not well know old hat.

If I am really to do this I have eight months to plan and should come to being able to implement in some form in that time. For me to do this is to climb all kinds of spiritual, intellectual, psychological, and physical mountains. I need to become vegan. I need to loose 30 lbs. I need to get back to walking at 4 miles a day--only stopped 8 weeks ago and finding it really hard to get back. I need to get all my legal life and papers in order. It is the old above/below thing. I have to repair all my own holes.

I am not a good actress because I have spent most of my life learning how to not let anyone know what I really think. I am a very good coach because I absolutely understand what I am asking people to risk in even displaying "acting" emotions. My greatest strength when I was teaching was to provide the safety and assurance that failing was part of the process.

About six weeks ago I ran into the translations of the Enki Sumerian Chronicles on youtube. It took me 3 days to watch the 14 chapters. Like making the world stop and revolve in my mind and the tsunamis bang back and forth thru my brain. It was a tough in the dark night of the soul experience. Ultimately, I believe them to be true. There may be a few things off here and there but that is what has been kept from us almost from the beginning. They to me are like the web that finally connects everything.

My conclusions:

The annunaki violated the universal law. Their sins was not that they tried to save their planet regardless. Their sin was that saving their own planet was not worth their own labor to do it. Their sin was creating sentient beings to be slaves and depriving them of the free will or choices and co creation that appears to be the basis of the universe. Their planet came to be endangered because they chose to forget their own history. Apparently, they knew the possibility of destroying their own world with WMDs. Thus, the screwed up their own orbit and their own atmosphere.

All of their mistakes, they have perpetuated upon us. Thus, we are unique hybrids in the universe. Our dark side is the annunaki who chose to forget their own history and continue to deny us ours. Our light side is our own connection to our own planet and the possibilities that have never been allowed to be expressed. While all universes have a light and dark side, ours has never been that of natural evolution with freedom of choice.

We could never be removed to go to another planet because that connection would not be there. You begin your way to consciousness on your own planet, it is the way you are grounded. You can't appreciate the other until you can love and preserve what you were initially given. Our planet has been under quarantine because what has been done here is not going to be allowed to infect the rest of the universe.

We have finally got to a place that those who want to know can. It is interesting to me that the Stein clips posted here, which I have totally reviewed from beginning to end, have been posted on youtube since 2009 with less than 6000 views. That is people not wanting to know.

In the Law of One and Ra etc. it says 20% are ready to be harvested. The PTB chose to make deals with either the very aliens that did this or our future selves who did not get to make the best choices having involved into little people with almost no emotion and no empathy who come back to tinker with us and see what they can reintroduce back into their genetics. We have apparently been through three cycles of civilization and destruction totaling about 75,000 years so our lesser selves are 45,000 a head and they are still missing the best of being human.

Now that we got a consciousness going and growing and boy can I feel it. As we expand ourselves to love and higher thought making better choices our vibrations do increase. Going underground has been tried before with no obvious success. Underground is trying to control. Underground is changing tactics not thinking. Underground is not allowing rising consciousness to rise.

Intentions are everything. Creating even in virtual reality is creating.

Those of us who want to do this must want to live what we are constructing regardless of what is being created around us. This is the place on this world we would live. We have to do exactly what is required to get there.

No one has to go here with me in any thought but I believe selecting the best we can for enduring this gets us a ticket. The good ETS who have lived by the universal laws of creation are going to stand by and literally beam those of us out in the open they can sense the vibes of. They will keep us and give us training until the earth subsides and then will return us to the places we were creating to survive in. We then get the chance to make conscious choices knowing our history and that of the universe as to what we can now comprehend. There is no free ride, we will literally get what we create with the reality that we have. For me that translates getting out of LA and it will take me 8 months to do it.

Meanwhile I want to work with all those who want to work with me. I am going to do all my work on reality in this thread. And I am going to really risk being outside of who I usually am and start one other thread on the spiritual side. Right now I am exhausted.

[9eagle9]

Bumps knuckles. Incoming Risk Strike imminent. Go for it.

[modwiz]

What Nick Said.

Cept I add in estrogen drama's too. And I have encountered the same thing over and over in loose spiritual communities where people didn't live on site but were supposed to work towards making the community work. The retail, gardening, healing end of it. This was mostly women, the men were shunted off into a corner with their thumb up their @55, everyone was for, some reason, afraid to ask the men to do or contribute anything yet let all this resent towards them build. Because they wouldn't let them do anything. ...lol.

And the women struggled to compete. Who was better psychic, better healer, most popular, more spiritual, backstabbing, gossip. Because I have no problems speaking up it was somehow unofficially decided I was community mediator.

These are things I mediated.

"She's stealing my power." She put a curse on me. "She's using black magick in the herb garden"

I left. And I opened my own lodge. Everyone was all gung ho about having a lodge in the country where everyone would contribute.

First order of business was erect sweat lodge.

This turned into > Hey lets us know when the sweat lodge is ready and we'll show up.

Food? I have to bring a dish to pass? What I can't run up the electric bill. Aren't you paying for it out of all our donations.

What donations? If you scream about bringing a pot of potato salad I should expect you are donating?

Closed my doors real fast. I wasn't their parent's house. This wasn't my idea of community either. Waiting on people hand and foot and resolving their paranoia. They aren't integrated in themselves to oneness let alone be shunted into a crowd of other un-integrated people.

If anyone has any ideas I am all ears but I'm basically out here in seclusion to get away from Communities...lol. Drama comes from testosterone and estrogen equally, I'm fair about that anyway although everyone maintains its just because I'm evil because I won't play the game.

However someone may wish to google Holocracy.

Let me know what you think.

I work at a holistic learning center in NY. Omega Institute. It is open for 6 months a year and has a fairly large community distributed in tents,dorms and cabins. There are different tiers of salaried, professional and workfare people there. At another time I might get into more detail but the bottom line is you need an aristocracy of sorts that has the final say when needed. The less they are needed the healthier the community is.

What one has to be on guard for in these settings is the bee mentality versus the parasite mentality. Maturity has import but it is not as crucial as the basic type of personality.

These communities attract parasites like a body attracts mosquitoes. That is where aristocracy is needed. It goes without saying they have to be among the most spiritual and emotionally mature of the group. You have to have respect and affection for those you work with and not for. Common goal of purpose is essential, like a beehive.
Omega is a special place and I can't wait to go back there at the end of April. Comfy in my 12x13 tent with a 30 amp electrical feed for lights, heater and my computer for DVD's. Where my site is I pick up wi-fi internet which allows me internet in my tent. My angels take very good care of me.

3 meals a day are taken in common with a 2-3 hour window of availability for staff. Visitors have around 2 hours. Staff can "raid" the leftovers in the staff lounge 24/7 Tables and wi-fi are available there. Tea and coffee, apple and orange juice are available to us also. No money needed, it is free.

I am a massage therapist and work in the wellness center and am paid by the work I do. Busier days equal more earnings. I pay monthly room and board for my tent site and meals. I can usually cover my monthly expenses with two busy days.

The worker bees are housekeeping, gardening, maintenance, guest services, cafe, kitchen and dining room. They get room and board and a humble stipend. There is a waiting list for the privilege to work at these jobs. There are lifeguards and a few other specialized categories

We also have a lake open from dawn till dusk with kayaks and canoes that require you only to don a life jacket. No signing anything required.

It is a non-profit but the aristocrats do well. Nobody really cares anyway. We are treated so well we do not begrudge them what they make. It is not even a thought. Those who bother themselves with such dark thinking do not fit in and don't return. Pure tissue rejection. Very organic. If you want to talk about a model concept for another way of doing things, Omega is it.

I see lots of people here who would thrive in this environment and a lesser number who wouldn't make it 10 days.

Life is about the quality of your days not the quantity of your toys. The bucks and the deer do their dance and it is all a beautiful, voluptuous ballet. Hearts are broken to be sure and feelings hurt but the support around these events is on another level than the common soap operas we are used to. Similar but qualitatively different.

It is going to be interesting to see how this Avalon community unfolds. Phillipe and his resources could make obtaining the homestead very doable. Prime land is important so an elite person is an enormous advantage, as long as the vision is shared. He has the opportunity to be loved and fiercely protected just by being out of ego and in his heart.

I hold the space and dream that this can happen.

Modwiz

[write4change]

Modwiz,

A great post with good insights. When I had money and my property, I got American Camping Certified as and owner/director. It is what I should have done first when I bought the property. Having hung around with real elites, I went for total physical upgrade of the facilities. Put 350,000 cash in it before trying to make a dime. Not good. After I did the camping thing which I did twice. I realized I had a better facility than most and that is not what kids see. Some parents though. Kids see the program and the people they are going to hand out with.

[modwiz]

Modwiz,

A great post with good insights. When I had money and my property, I got American Camping Certified as and owner/director. It is what I should have done first when I bought the property. Having hung around with real elites, I went for total physical upgrade of the facilities. Put 350,000 cash in it before trying to make a dime. Not good. After I did the camping thing which I did twice. I realized I had a better facility than most and that is not what kids see. Some parents though. Kids see the program and the people they are going to hand out with.

Monied people often get hung up on 5 star accommodations to attract the "right" people. That depends on what your definition of "right" is. Deep pockets or big hearts?

Where I work accommodations are not fancy at all but the service is 6 star. Service is our "religion". STO all the way.
Echardt Tolle is a big influence there. Adyashanti has week long silent retreats there. How we serve others informs us about ourselves.

The humble cabins and other shelters keep the types prone to be abusive to others away. Besides holistic classes and a vegetarian kitchen also keep things mellow. Diet has a huge influence on temperament.

Thank you for this thread and your insight.

[modwiz]

I really believe this thread and the other one about communities should be seeing more traffic especially following some of the words and thoughts of both Charles and Bill.

Machines, bloodlines, alien reptiles are not topics that will give us the concepts and groundwork that are necessary to move forward.

This is not a good sign. With a beehive as a metaphor this place should be buzzing with ideas and people coming to an understanding of what is to be expected of them.
Logging in to Avalon forum is not the skill set required.

I live the dream for half a year at a time. This concept is not an abstract one for me.

The childrens story of the city mouse and the country mouse comes to mind. Even people raised in the country are more like city mice when it comes to creature comforts and sweating for a living. There are some real workers and craftspeople in this crowd though, and that is a good thing.

An especially good thing if anything develops of the "idea".

[write4change]

Modwiz,

I have often gotten depressed by your observations but this is a self selecting process. My mother was not a nice person. She knew she was not a nice person. She knew she was in the process of dying for 10 years. She had diabetes for instance and she would sit down and eat a half gallon of ice cream at a sitting. My mother never in her whole life told me she loved me. I never realized this until after she died. It never even seemed strange just how things were. My mother was terrified those ten years of dying. the worst things i know about my mother came out of her own mouth coming out of anathesia in the recovery room. What I know for sure is people like her and Cheney are not worth reflecting on because they are done. Nor do I want to disturb them from their pastimes. They are entitled to their choices.

The effort of change looks harder at the moment than enduring the final and fatal attack. The reason the government is saying and doing nothing is they have the studies that show the 80% will scream and howl but do nothing to prepare. And then distract and prevent the preparers. The old crab does not let any other crab climb out of the pail.

My big mistake was giving people chances they would never create for themselves. When I had money the people I employed needed second chances. One woman in mid 40s was making 6.25 an hour cleaning dog **** in a kennel. She also claimed her husband was highly abusive. I paid her 250.00 a week, provided her with a fully furnished one bedroom cottage of a 1000 sq feet, plus cable TV, and all utilities paid and access to a dual cabin pickup truck. I thought she would take the opportunity to learn many things. The reality was that she wanted to do less and less not more and more. She did me really dirty and went back to the husband and kennel ****. What I learned was that was all she could see or be comfortable with. One of the early consciousness groups I did said we always make exactly what we are comfortable making. Idealists want to change this rationals know you have to accept it.

I have always been into feel the fear and do it any way.

Based on what I think is evident and what is needed the closest I could come to a place that I understand should be safe etc. is Parryton, Texas. Has a website and pictures. I can rent a three bedroom house there for 500.00 a month. If I can not bring community consensus this is doable to me on an individual level. At that price i have enough money to support two people. I only need look for someone to help me drive out there and live for the year to see if this occurs.

We need group research but also found a 20 acre place with a 4BR house and basement for less than 200,000. Pretty decent house for communal center with enough land to build earthship houses on. These houses will survive typhoons etc. because there is nothing to grab onto everything passes through. Own septic tank and well. Enough to start to get us ready enough to basically survive if we do not get the three days of sustained 140 degree temperatures. Like everything else you pay your money and you take your choice. Flat land near the new equator. Nothing to erupt or fall over. Far enough away from the tsunamis of the Pacific and the undulation of the gulf. I am basing my choices on what we know from the geological evidence what happened in the past. For the future easy access to being beamed up. LOL

I am committed to surviving and then surrendering to what the universe unfolds. I can see a lot of alternate realities, I would choose to work for the highest and best. And most of all I believe I have learned to vibrate well and I will work on a spiritual thread to show how I did it over my lifetime. The purpose of having a mentor is to go faster and not have to make the same mistakes.

I became at a young age the kind of person that when someone said see that over there. That is ****. Stay away from it. I would go: it looks like ****, it feels like ****, it tastes like ****. okay you are right--it is ****. But, what is the purpose of ****??? LOL


I will work for the highest and best but I am already implementing for the worst. Those who find the fear too terrifying to face......

[9eagle9]

Good observations Mod. I understand precisely what you mean about parasite mentality. I have to tactfully call it codependency but it is a form of parasite behavior. The former community I was in eventually attracted nothing else but parasites and they quickly collapsed the entire structure. After you suck something dry there's nothing left. I also noticed those sorts of parasites also view simplicity as a form of poverty consciousness and that is what they project.

You clearly express that when you are back 'home' in your tent, in your haven, that you feel more enriched than poverty stricken.

Your utopia sounds wonderful.

I'm hoping that one day I can revive my little valhalla here but I need a total restructuring of my thoughts before I do so and am spending the remainder of the winter arranging the 'abundance in simplicity' that I'd like express. I found i have wasted a great deal of time trying to show people how to achieve what they thought they wanted but really didn't want. But insisted I give them... a bit of insanity thinking there.


@Write4change: I became at a young age the kind of person that when someone said see that over there. That is ****. Stay away from it. I would go: it looks like ****, it feels like ****, it tastes like ****. okay you are right--it is ****. But, what is the purpose of ****??? LOL


Fertilizer! You can plant seeds in it. If someone hands you ****, grow something with it.

My mother was not a nice person. She knew she was not a nice person. She knew she was in the process of dying for 10 years. She had diabetes for instance and she would sit down and eat a half gallon of ice cream at a sitting. My mother never in her whole life told me she loved me. I never realized this until after she died. It never even seemed strange just how things were. My mother was terrified those ten years of dying. the worst things i know about my mother came out of her own mouth coming out of anathesia in the recovery room.


My mother there if you add in pancreatic cancer (twice). Same behaviors. Your mother was caught in a nightmare of self loathing. Self loathing is a nightmare. I note the dog kennel **** lady was caught in the self loathing trap, too. An intricate dynamic there. While we aren't conditioned, per say, to self loathe ourselves via our parents that energy really effects as until we learn to understand it. It's a covert form of child abuse actually.

[9eagle9]

I currently have about 5 acres here with access to additional six hundred across the road. I dont' own the place and I won't get a mortgage or a contract on it since you can't own anything in Michigan anyway. Not real property anyway. But for 600 a month on 5k sq feet plus acreage my mortgage expense would far exceed my rent. I really stay in the place of "if I dont' own it, it can't be taken from me" There's a 2,500 sq work shop attached. . A real man cave that I hoped that someone would like to utilize for some sustainability projects. I had let the workshop to a couple different yahoo's who had come to do spirituality and sustainability type work, and had to ask them to leave shortly after as they were just out of control needy, disruptive, intrusion, destructive. Parasites. What is interesting is that once I finally let go of how I thought that workshop needed to be, someone came along who understood community. Young man, just 25 and he wasn't involved in spiritual or sustainability work but he understands how energy works even if not consciously. He absolutely LOVE S that shop, he is so proud of it I have to laugh. He contributes, I help him out with his work, he does repairs around here (built my hens not just a coop but a real deluxe chick de coupe inspite of the fact he HATES my chickens) really throws himself into the whole concept. HE's also fulfilled a number of problemic things I was having which was access to reasonable top soil, manure mixes , and means of busting up some of the uncared for depleted soil here.

[modwiz]

I currently have about 5 acres here with access to additional six hundred across the road. I dont' own the place and I won't get a mortgage or a contract on it since you can't own anything in Michigan anyway. Not real property anyway. But for 600 a month on 5k sq feet plus acreage my mortgage expense would far exceed my rent. I really stay in the place of "if I dont' own it, it can't be taken from me" There's a 2,500 sq work shop attached. . A real man cave that I hoped that someone would like to utilize for some sustainability projects. I had let the workshop to a couple different yahoo's who had come to do spirituality and sustainability type work, and had to ask them to leave shortly after as they were just out of control needy, disruptive, intrusion, destructive. Parasites. What is interesting is that once I finally let go of how I thought that workshop needed to be, someone came along who understood community. Young man, just 25 and he wasn't involved in spiritual or sustainability work but he understands how energy works even if not consciously. He absolutely LOVE S that shop, he is so proud of it I have to laugh. He contributes, I help him out with his work, he does repairs around here (built my hens not just a coop but a real deluxe chick de coupe inspite of the fact he HATES my chickens) really throws himself into the whole concept. HE's also fulfilled a number of problemic things I was having which was access to reasonable top soil, manure mixes , and means of busting up some of the uncared for depleted soil here.

The right people are effortless to work with. Ah yes, poop from the coop. Good way to enrich poor soil.
A few more people with similar attitudes but diversty of talents and you got something starting to happen. Need that common purpose though for focus.
What do we do? What is our Y for anothers X. Can't go wrong with food though. Better than gold any-day. People are about to find that out.

A lot of people at Omega are in their twenties. All very hippyish. As an old hippy I love it.
Few people of any gender use razors and deodorants are shunned. With a vegetarian diet people smell different. Sweeter not so strong and pungent.
The beautiful thing is you actually can sense people better when you can get a scent of them and their uniqueness in that spectrum of perception.

We call ourselves Omegans

[mymoonlightshines]

I am so glad I found this thread! Thank you all... especially write4change, your insight and wisdom is more than appreciated. As I said in my post on the thread "What happened to you???" I have altered my lifestyle a great deal over the last month in order to be more in alignment with my truth (#76 if anyone is curious ) part of this includes a focus on building a self sustaining community. This has all come about recently and I am so grateful that others have this same burning desire that I do! There is a different thread on this called "Avalon as a model community" and I will repost what I posted there because I would really like to start a dialogue on a set of principals or "laws" that we can agree to live by...


****************************************************************************************

Hello all! grateful to be a part of this I feel like this is HUGE! I must say that it is easy to find things to disagree on. One of my biggest realizations over the last month has been that things are not absolute and that everything I though I knew is wrong... most of it anyway... I agree with Janos that we need to focus on the things we DO agree on, and there are many things if I may throw a few out here.

1. We all deserve the freedom to exist in the world however we wish such that it does not directly impede on another mans freedom
2. freedom is defined as exemption from external control, interference or regulation

I have more ideas but I would like some input from others... oh and thank you 4thsky for the info on the Venus Project, I feel that unity is the KEY here, lets agree to disagree on some of this stuff and work on establishing a different way to live together. We have so much variance in our genetics we have to accept that we will have equally varied opinions and interpretations of our experiences.

**************************************************************************************************** ***

I also wanted to add that I feel like we EACH have our own strengths that can potentially contribute to the success of a community or group. I would even go so far as to say that it may be essential to our survival at some point that we are able to acknowledge and develop our strengths. I cant wait to see where this goes thanx again write4change!

I look forward to contributing in any way I can, I am open to living in Texas for a year ;)

kamarie

[write4change]

Good morning all. Waking up to progress is so invigorating.

Eagle why is it impossible to own property in Michigan?

Once I have accepted that I need to take action telling the stories of learning does not seem an immediate need but will evolve as part of the process. For a while I will focus on my skills and skills we need to attract.

The other issue mentioned here is the need for a cohesive belief system. Another way of saying this is a simple mission statement that can be expressed and understood by all. This is the toughest part of the work and should be started now. Coming to community consensus is never easy.

All communities that exist for any length of time I have a cohesive belief system. Since we are not selling earth destruction, you must have a plan for off the grid, sustainable living. Today the news in my major political site is that Texas, the only state in the union with a stand alone grid system, is experiencing rolling black outs right now.

The reason I picked 36 as a the number of people for the group I want to form is because of the Legend of the Lamo Ved. sp? I will have to look this up. 36 numerically by the Kaballa is the double chai. Chai is the sign of dedication to life often expressed with an open palm with a seeing eye. The legend is that as long as 36 people silently vow to live a righteous life for all life, the world will go on. The minute there are not 36 people on the earth to keep this vow, the world ends. Also according to the Kaballa, at 18 you begin your adult life, and it is your learning period of coming to consciousness, but at 36 you begin your mature life and all your choices are from then on permanently accountable and in essence become karma.
In the old days, Kaballa wisdom was never taught or studied until you became at least 36.

One of the problems you have to address in Texas and places like it. Is to have a public personna that is acceptable to the locals. You cannot successfully be weird california type hippies. I will tell stories about this later.

Thus, you can hold yourself out to be botanists in training and replicating the work of Chief Joseph and the three sisters etc. And get acceptance. You cannot say my spiritual life is to change the whole spiritual paradigm you are living under.

I began my life on a farm in upstate New York specificlly Cohoes, New York. I lived with my grandparent for the first five years of my life. It grounded and centered me forever. I loved it but over the years my grandparents sold off the 50 acreas for housing lots to keep going. When they died they only had five left. I was indoctrinated like most Americans that this was a boring old way of life not worth living.

When I took it up again as an adult, I have never found it boring. I have found it to be infinitely satisfying. I consider it painting with the earth. Cocreation.

Part of my unusual background is that I am one of the first 13 women to attend Texas A & M in 1965. All of us were related to someone on campus in some form and had to get waivers. We were experiments in could the A & M culture survive with women? I was a history major. I got to take the history of military tactics taught by the grandson of a famous confederate general. It was an eye opening experience. My first husband was the class of 65, his father the class of 33, and his father the class of 03. I also took a class in animal husbandry and conservation farming just for electives thinking I would never really use them.

In San Francisco at Golden Gate University I took courses in Urban Planning for fun because I understood even then that nothing of change will ever really come from inside. As long as you have to make a living at it, you have an agenda. It is only when you can stand outside of something that you are free to see clearly. I have been a parrenial student all my life and will remain so for the rest of my life. I still read about a book a day and have for most of my life.

Because of my low self esteem issues, I never thought I deserved to live on the land so it was never something I consciously held out.

In the early 80s, I got a certificate from UCLA in Interior and Environmental Design. In a way, this was validation of what I knew and did not know. I had been collecting antiques all my life. It turned out I was very good at that and this gave me the opportunity to refine and identify what I did not know to learn. The reality is we have had serious furniture only about 400 years and it does not take that much effort to learn it all from reading about 4 major books on the subject. I made more money percentage wise than my husband--- for instance my dinning room set I paid 2600 for in 1980---I sold for 16,000 in 1995 and I got to use it for 15 years. I am great at bringing in a definitive budget and a total looser at creating without parameters.

One of the things I am instinctively good at is seeing before hand and understanding water flow. I married my second husband just as he was in the process of building a three story condominium complex in LA. This was in the height of the Reagan recession and 22% interest rates. Many of his friends were loosing their shirts. I saved his choices design wise--he had a terrible architect as far as I was concerned. The big unique feature of these condos were very large terraced patios projecting off the building. They sort of cascaded from one to the other and the drainage was designed to flow one to the other down. When I looked at this I told my husband that the first hard fast rain would flood the bottom floor. He poohed me and said you don't have architectural initials after your name. We got that rain before we came on line but we had already laid the carpet. The entire bottom floor had to be recarpeted and re wall papered.

So I built a custom home in San Antonio, I designed it and had a local general contractor 30 years old build it for me. Boy, did we have some fights. He was one of those guys who said yes yes yes to get the contract and then thought he could do what ever he wanted. He knew my husband was a lawyer but did not know he was a builder investor. Nor did he take seriously that I considered myself a designer. The lot backed up to a federal flood plain. Before we put in the drive way and the hardscape landscape we got a huge rain in the night. I went out to look at the crack of dawn at the river behind the house. Where is was and how it flowed. I see 4 foot ruts where the drive is going to be and down the side lawn. I tell the builder stop everything this has to be redesigned. He says no. I call my husband and he tells the builder when my wife says we have a water problem, we have a water problem. Let her fix it period.

After we moved in--working on the flood plain became sort of a hobby for me. If before this time, I had said to my husband I want to life on a ranch he would have said you are crazy. I took three acres behind the house that prior to us living there was mowed three times a year to keep the snakes down and turned it into a park. I started push mowing the parameter six inches at a time the weeds/grass was so thick. In that process I had to pick up all the rocks as I went. There were beautiful old oaks all around the paremeter of the plain but because they "belonged" to no one and the federal government saw only a flood control path--the trees were seen as obstacles. Often they were uprooted and then floated down with the floods to where they would catch on bridges and then be chopped up and hauled away. I put all the rocks on the three acres I cleared on the tree roots. These trees never got uprooted. Once I got the whole area mowed, I sowed low rainfall bermuda which gradually choked out most of the weeds. Then I sowed wild flowers all around the edges. By that time to keep it my husband bought me a riding mower. It changed the whole appearance of the neighborhood and the sense of community for the kids. They had a communal place to play where their parents could watch from their houses on the hills. The kids took up keeping it when we left. Interesting no one above or below me tried to do the same or organize to do it.
My husband learned that since I diligently pursued this with no agenda but loving the earth that I wasn't all talk and no walk. Thus, we bought 20 acres in the Hill Country 30 miles north of San Antonio.

End of this bit.

[9eagle9]

Texas is one of the few states left where property ownership is actual ownership . IUnless something has changed. In Michigan as it is most other places its equable use 'ownership' where the title of the property states that the person paying the note is only the 'tenant'. You think you own it or are at least pyaing on it but you don't even after you've paid the note. I don't and won't own anything of major value.

My car was recently repo-ed. Was actually a month ahead in payment, insurance all paid up. Bye Bye Car. I guess this was based on a few late payments I' made over a year ago. (they'd been looking for the car for a year...lol) I spoke to a lawyer and he said banks were yanking all sorts of properties and holding them for hostage. Homes, cars and not for the typical reasons. Just looking for a default in the contract, they can make some money off of. I wasn't interested in being a hostage so I didn't even bother to find out what happened to it. They broke the transaxle hauling it off so I wasn't overly anxious in reclaiming a screwed up car. A month goes by and I guess the bank was puzzled as to why I wasn't calling to find out what happened to car. They called me, to give me 'last option' before it went to auction (with broke axle presumably) and rattled off a list 'fees, fines' etc in order to release the car. I told them it was their car, they pay the fees. :pThen they got desperate calling me back and offering to cut this fee, that fee. No no no, I shrug. Not thanks. You essentially just drug off 600 dollars in debt and I'm having a good time with that extra disposable income.

My family settled in KY at the turn of the century (after being run off their hereditary lands in Ireland). No vehicles, no electricity, nearly complete sustainability. They only left to go down in the flatlands to barter. In the 1950's the government forced my family and extended family off the land so they could make it a public property. Now its a National Park to honor the interprid pioneering spirit of America . After they stole if from the intrepid pioneers.

Used to not owning things. It's in my blood ;)

[write4change]

We have to look at the good and bad of Texas. One of the things that blew me away on ranch in California versus the ranch in Texas: after I fired some of these people, they would not leave. I called the police and they would tell the police we had this oral contract bs etc. And the police would tell me this is a civil dispute and you will have to go to court. Took me a while to learn how to function in this environment. I also had to go down to one of the Four Square churches and tell their pastor to stop sending people up to my property offering to work for a day etc. All this did was open me up to people identifying things and ways to steal them.

In Texas if you own property and you want to fire someone--they are gone. You don't tell some Texas Ranger I have an oral contract etc. It is show me what you are owed and why or get your body out of here. Period. I could even accept in California that if they are living on the property they should get 30 day notice but this gives them ample opportunity to steal stuff. I learned to no longer let employees live on the property for any reason. Then I found out in California that if you live on a property as a house guest for 30 days you now have rights of notice etc and can take someone to court over oral agreements.

And I learned in Texas to make sure that you are buying a fee simple contract. That is why going to someplace like Perryton is pretty easy. Most mortgages are financed locally. These kind of towns do not support Bank of America types. Everybody there knows what the property is worth and so 30% down on a low doc loan is done all the time.

So for 36 people on a 200,000 price the down payment for each one is less than 1700 dollars. To secure it you just need to prove that two of the members of the partnership have social security guaranteed pensions equaling twice the monthly payment of about 800.00 a month. Before you buy you need to incorporate to a limited liability partnership. you need to decide the price you are willing to pay and you need to have the down payment in the bank under the corp control.

One of the the first things I would do is plant about 30 pecan trees with drip irrigation. The Pecan Trees alone will establish the property as agricultural producing and it is then taxed at a much lower rate. You also get utilities cheaper. And most of all so many pecan groves have been destroyed by tract housing that the price is steadily rising. In ten years, an average pecan tree produces a $1000 a year income. So the trees alone will pay the cost of the mortgage and most utilities leaving people free to do what they want to do. Meanwhile, a serious approach to this is the old hooking up with the young. We have the steady pensions as long as there is full faith and credit of the US. And when that is gone we are in no worse shape than 80% of Americans. If it is too cold for pecans, then walnuts. On the ranch in Santa Clarita I had walnuts and the big deal was the crows. LOL Walnuts are slower growing but the wood is now worth a small fortune, they will take about anything for veneers. So even the prunings are valuable. Another consideration, is how you take title. If the old take it, with an iron clad agreement with the young--Texas way of dealing with prop 13 issues--is that once retired and on a fixed income your taxes are frozen for life.

I point all these issues out as we go so we make our best choices. None of these are made choices just things to reflect on how doable this is. If we have an event and if you have to live where you survived--how will you do it?

Looking at this totally flat land with intense sun, if you can bury your solar cells deeply enough not to be effect by electro magnetic ism... I am hoping some of you are going to research this kind of stuff--it is not my field. That is what community is about finding the right niche for everyone.

If you think about this as creating an earthship---remembering Star Trek--the man who disposes of the ship's garbage was, like everyone else, necessary to the survival of the ship. Not just in disposing of the garbage but in the right way, in the right place, and at the right time because it left an identifiable trail in space which told not only where they were but where they had been and who and what was contained in the ship.

In speaking of change: when white man came to America raccoons were not nocturnal. They learned to be nocturnal in order to survive the white man hunting them to extinction for hats and coats. Survival is a big motivator for change. When you look at the Western United States and realize from your eyes that this area has been submerged three times. And that the fact of universal geological events has been kept from us by our governments on purpose.

The other thing about Perryton---it has better odds about surviving a nuclear war. There is nothing there to make a worth while target. There will be no huge bombs but tactical nukes. Why will the powers that be want nuclear war just before this? Because they want to emerge from their holes free and clear and not have to deal with anyone not of their mind set. Nuclear war just before a pole shift means that atmosphere is cleaned out and the much of the populations destroyed will simply be swept away. It is actually the safest time to do it. On that level I raise my consciousness to ETs not going to allow that to happen. And maybe the few good citizens that already prevented it once. Consciousness is being prepared and observant. You ignore nothing.

To show how spirituality works in a culture. Did you know in India that if you die from a snake bit you cannot be cremated and dispersed in the Ganges? The reason being is that living in harmony in the jungle meant paying attention and being conscious. There are many kinds of poisonous snakes in India. Getting snake bit means you choose not to pay attention. Choosing an unconscious life is not acceptable in India. Much of how India lives today is influenced by the West but they were for centuries the most spiritual nation on the earth.

[ThePythonicCow]

Did you say Texas has no land taxes? Texas has land (real estate) taxes.

They are one of few states without an income tax -- perhaps that was the source of confusion.

[write4change]

Looking at what you can do with your solar cells. I had a neighbor put some in. I allowed Southern California Edison to lie to me because I did not understand at the time that corps do that. I thought it was to their advantage to work with me on this.

The solar panels my neighbors put in were about a foot in depth and six feet by two feet. They put in 4 and with all the stuff to go with it--storage, conversion, wiring etc. it cost 35,000 and it paid for itself in less than three years. They had theirs on a side of a hill and only got sunlight about six hours a day.

In a clear flat area like this, flat they will take sun about 10 hours a day. You can elevate them maybe 8 feet in the air. Underneath them you can plant things that cannot withstand that intense Texas sun. And again you run drip irrigation underneath.

Out in the sun and in an area where erosion is a problem you plant the Indian three sisters way. You plant corn, beans and squash at the same time. The squash spreads out and covers the ground and the beans climb up the corn. In this combination, they weather most things and actually do better together than alone. You keep at least two horses for all kinds of work. Horse manure unlike cow manure is very dry out in the open and does not attract flies. Horse manure composted is not messy or disgusting.

Another consideration is storage of food. Buying a steel shipping containers now are not that expensive. Then you insulate with R 32 by laying chicken wire over the insulation and typing it in the sides etc. Insulate all 4 sides using pavers on the bottom. Then you rent of hire a neighbor with equipment to dig you a pond. All the dirt from the pond gets thrown over the container and then you plant some kind of vines in the dirt to hold everything in place. You now have a great mound for many creative uses and you have a substantial pond. I have built 5 in my life now. You bring them into ecological balance with gravel and sand filtration, plants and fish, and periodically adding the enzymes and bacteria. This gives you a natural recreation place--absolutely no peeing aloud. And you can produce corn fed cat fish with very little effort. It is possible depending on conditions to build a small windmill for aeration of the water if needed and or as making well water come up to the pond.

The trees need pruning once a year and fertilizing once a year. The three sisters plant and fertilize at the same time. The harvest is how you want to do it. Some every day--all at once probably both. The fish you throw corn every day they will get tame and actually let you pet them coming to feed. In this area there are no water mocassins to start and it is too far for them to crawl. Rattle snakes need attention paid but usually give fair warning and no one pokes under stones or holes stupidly. So you have an income crop, stables crop, a protein crop of fish without a great deal of aggravation.

One of the reasons you want to be friends and part of the community, is that you will be really small. Tractor needs will be initial and then rare. Buying and maintaining a big tractor is a wasted of time and money. Being able to rent and hire from your neighbors is important. In Texas I planted six acres of sorgum sp? which produced really well. Got those huge rolling barrels of it. I hired my neighbor to plant it for $300 and for him on his machines it was a couple of hours work. He produced huge fields of it. He also produced some bermuda alfa hay. I had 5 horses. I gave him all the sorgum for him giving me a barn load of hay. To produce his hay--he had field irrigation which I did not nor did the sorgum need. So it cost me 300 a year to feed my horses. cheap and effective and appreciative bonds formed.

I worked a 20 acre ranch in Texas entirely by myself. Besides the pecans which I put in I had a small orchard that was there when I bought it. I also had a small green house that was there. It was made by stacking cinder blocks as a base then building a 2 by 4 Frame and then coving with simple sheets of PVC plastic. I grew all kinds of herbs, tomatoes etc. in it all year round. For a heavy duty weather environment===they have a kind of lucite that mimicks corrugated steel roofing. I had a five acre front lawn. From March to November I mowed two hours a day on a small deerfield riding tractor. I did a lot of meditating on that tractor. My husband said he could see I was happiest on that tractor.

On the ranch that I totally cared for I had 5 horses, 5 dogs, at least a dozen cats, free range chickens, two goats, two llamas, a raccoon, and a flock of guinea hens. They are the best security system you can have. Don't ask me how but they learn the property lines they belong to. They hunt all day on the ground in a flock for various insects and snake like things. They roost in the trees at night. I fed them once a day in the morning and they spent the rest of the time doing their own thing. They were more wild than tame. When anything strange appears, it is the guinea hens that set up a ruckus.

I am a horse whisper and train very well. In California I hold a state title 4 years in a row. Something that has never been done before. One of my horses liked dressage so much I could his music on and he would practice by himself in the round pen. I have sold horses that I paid 5,000 for 50,000 after I trained them. Some things I am now too old to do consistently but I can still teach.

Next up the community housing.

[de rien]

IMO, they fail because those humans were unable to lay down the ego and live from the Heart. It's a struggle but we are getting better at it and more of us are starting to do it. Our powers are there, we must use them now.

[modwiz]

I am so glad I found this thread! Thank you all... especially write4change, your insight and wisdom is more than appreciated. As I said in my post on the thread "What happened to you???" I have altered my lifestyle a great deal over the last month in order to be more in alignment with my truth (#76 if anyone is curious ) part of this includes a focus on building a self sustaining community. This has all come about recently and I am so grateful that others have this same burning desire that I do! There is a different thread on this called "Avalon as a model community" and I will repost what I posted there because I would really like to start a dialogue on a set of principals or "laws" that we can agree to live by...


****************************************************************************************

Hello all! grateful to be a part of this I feel like this is HUGE! I must say that it is easy to find things to disagree on. One of my biggest realizations over the last month has been that things are not absolute and that everything I though I knew is wrong... most of it anyway... I agree with Janos that we need to focus on the things we DO agree on, and there are many things if I may throw a few out here.

1. We all deserve the freedom to exist in the world however we wish such that it does not directly impede on another mans freedom
2. freedom is defined as exemption from external control, interference or regulation

I have more ideas but I would like some input from others... oh and thank you 4thsky for the info on the Venus Project, I feel that unity is the KEY here, lets agree to disagree on some of this stuff and work on establishing a different way to live together. We have so much variance in our genetics we have to accept that we will have equally varied opinions and interpretations of our experiences.

**************************************************************************************************** ***

I also wanted to add that I feel like we EACH have our own strengths that can potentially contribute to the success of a community or group. I would even go so far as to say that it may be essential to our survival at some point that we are able to acknowledge and develop our strengths. I cant wait to see where this goes thanx again write4change!

I look forward to contributing in any way I can, I am open to living in Texas for a year ;)

kamarie

Freedom is both a simple and complex subject. In the communities of the future telepathy will be more and more part of things. This then addresses the need for alignment in vision of the community, just as all the cells of an organ must be on the same page or trouble results. A meditation of the deeper aspects of this might intrude on what people feel is the freedom to think whatever they want. Yes, that freedom must exist but people of with more unique or culture specific concepts will probably need to establish their own little utopias.

As write4change has so aptly elucidated in her postings, one of the biggest problems with these communities lies with people who are looking for freedom from work, freedom from contribution and responsibility for the welfare of the whole.

With freedom comes great responsibility and emotional maturity. This dearth of such in society at large is very much responsible for the mess we find ourselves in and have found ourselves in for many long years. People willing to give up almost every freedom to a daddy overgroup so they can myopically focus on their own personal needs without concern for the whole.

There needs to be an aristocracy of some sorts. It needs to be small and in symbiosis with the rest of the group. The queen of a beehive is an absolute necessity but her own children are also the workers and artisans.

Freedom calls many, if not most. Screening will be crucial to success.

Sober thoughts to balance the intoxication of liberty.

Modwiz

[modwiz]

Looking at what you can do with your solar cells. I had a neighbor put some in. I allowed Southern California Edison to lie to me because I did not understand at the time that corps do that. I thought it was to their advantage to work with me on this.

The solar panels my neighbors put in were about a foot in depth and six feet by two feet. They put in 4 and with all the stuff to go with it--storage, conversion, wiring etc. it cost 35,000 and it paid for itself in less than three years. They had theirs on a side of a hill and only got sunlight about six hours a day.

In a clear flat area like this, flat they will take sun about 10 hours a day. You can elevate them maybe 8 feet in the air. Underneath them you can plant things that cannot withstand that intense Texas sun. And again you run drip irrigation underneath.

Out in the sun and in an area where erosion is a problem you plant the Indian three sisters way. You plant corn, beans and squash at the same time. The squash spreads out and covers the ground and the beans climb up the corn. In this combination, they weather most things and actually do better together than alone. You keep at least two horses for all kinds of work. Horse manure unlike cow manure is very dry out in the open and does not attract flies. Horse manure composted is not messy or disgusting.

Another consideration is storage of food. Buying a steel shipping containers now are not that expensive. Then you insulate with R 32 by laying chicken wire over the insulation and typing it in the sides etc. Insulate all 4 sides using pavers on the bottom. Then you rent of hire a neighbor with equipment to dig you a pond. All the dirt from the pond gets thrown over the container and then you plant some kind of vines in the dirt to hold everything in place. You now have a great mound for many creative uses and you have a substantial pond. I have built 5 in my life now. You bring them into ecological balance with gravel and sand filtration, plants and fish, and periodically adding the enzymes and bacteria. This gives you a natural recreation place--absolutely no peeing aloud. And you can produce corn fed cat fish with very little effort. It is possible depending on conditions to build a small windmill for aeration of the water if needed and or as making well water come up to the pond.

The trees need pruning once a year and fertilizing once a year. The three sisters plant and fertilize at the same time. The harvest is how you want to do it. Some every day--all at once probably both. The fish you throw corn every day they will get tame and actually let you pet them coming to feed. In this area there are no water mocassins to start and it is too far for them to crawl. Rattle snakes need attention paid but usually give fair warning and no one pokes under stones or holes stupidly. So you have an income crop, stables crop, a protein crop of fish without a great deal of aggravation.

One of the reasons you want to be friends and part of the community, is that you will be really small. Tractor needs will be initial and then rare. Buying and maintaining a big tractor is a wasted of time and money. Being able to rent and hire from your neighbors is important. In Texas I planted six acres of sorgum sp? which produced really well. Got those huge rolling barrels of it. I hired my neighbor to plant it for $300 and for him on his machines it was a couple of hours work. He produced huge fields of it. He also produced some bermuda alfa hay. I had 5 horses. I gave him all the sorgum for him giving me a barn load of hay. To produce his hay--he had field irrigation which I did not nor did the sorgum need. So it cost me 300 a year to feed my horses. cheap and effective and appreciative bonds formed.

I worked a 20 acre ranch in Texas entirely by myself. Besides the pecans which I put in I had a small orchard that was there when I bought it. I also had a small green house that was there. It was made by stacking cinder blocks as a base then building a 2 by 4 Frame and then coving with simple sheets of PVC plastic. I grew all kinds of herbs, tomatoes etc. in it all year round. For a heavy duty weather environment===they have a kind of lucite that mimicks corrugated steel roofing. I had a five acre front lawn. From March to November I mowed two hours a day on a small deerfield riding tractor. I did a lot of meditating on that tractor. My husband said he could see I was happiest on that tractor.

On the ranch that I totally cared for I had 5 horses, 5 dogs, at least a dozen cats, free range chickens, two goats, two llamas, a raccoon, and a flock of guinea hens. They are the best security system you can have. Don't ask me how but they learn the property lines they belong to. They hunt all day on the ground in a flock for various insects and snake like things. They roost in the trees at night. I fed them once a day in the morning and they spent the rest of the time doing their own thing. They were more wild than tame. When anything strange appears, it is the guinea hens that set up a ruckus.

I am a horse whisper and train very well. In California I hold a state title 4 years in a row. Something that has never been done before. One of my horses liked dressage so much I could his music on and he would practice by himself in the round pen. I have sold horses that I paid 5,000 for 50,000 after I trained them. Some things I am now too old to do consistently but I can still teach.

Next up the community housing.

Write4change,
These posting of yours are must reading IMO. If people are fired up then their imaginations should be running wild in wonderfully creative ways. Your experience and accomplishments would help refine this storm of manifestation into more coherent patterns and both insert and eliminate ideas that would work.

[9eagle9]

There is something about solitude. Solitude and freedom some to be intrinsically connected to each other. Taking on something that 'seemingly' is too much for one person to handle. The person who has been on their own as a challenge or an adventure understands first hand the principles of taking care of self> " I used to think to myself if you have never been alone to take care of yourself alone and invest that time in doing for yourself, not out of selfishness but simply knowing how to care for yourself on all levels, how would you grow the appropriate attitude required for helping to take care of others and contribute to their welfare. If you can't do it on your own, I mean.

Whole lot of people can't stand their own company and can't run their lives because their lives are running them. I think they seek out communities to NOT be alone. And some people have simply NEVER been alone. Having hopped from parents, to spouse, to divorce to relationsip to relationship. It would be an interesting question to ask someone if they have ever lived on their own fully. Complete self responsibility. Part of my own solitude has taught me the importance of not just contributing but learning to accept what's offered not just for myself but for the good of the greater going on around me. There is an intricate nuance involved in giving and receiving , some people give with an agenda and some give from the heart.

Not to mention self governance and authority.


Freedom is both a simple and complex subject. In the communities of the future telepathy will be more and more part of things. This then addresses the need for alignment in vision of the community, just as all the cells of an organ must be on the same page or trouble results. A meditation of the deeper aspects of this might intrude on what people feel is the freedom to think whatever they want. Yes, that freedom must exist but people of with more unique or culture specific concepts will probably need to establish their own little utopias.

As write4change has so aptly elucidated in her postings, one of the biggest problems with these communities lies with people who are looking for freedom from work, freedom from contribution and responsibility for the welfare of the whole.

With freedom comes great responsibility and emotional maturity. This dearth of such in society at large is very much responsible for the mess we find ourselves in and have found ourselves in for many long years. People willing to give up almost every freedom to a daddy overgroup so they can myopically focus on their own personal needs without concern for the whole.

There needs to be an aristocracy of some sorts. It needs to be small and in symbiosis with the rest of the group. The queen of a beehive is an absolute necessity but her own children are also the workers and artisans.

Freedom calls many, if not most. Screening will be crucial to success.

Sober thoughts to balance the intoxication of liberty.

Modwiz

[9eagle9]

I have to go to bed but have to say the steel container is inspiring. And easy. I'm wondering what sort of smokehouse something like that would make. If one got around the paint on it in some fashion. And the horses....(that may derail thread)

So much too delve into.

Thanks...

[Sol Va]

This is kind of fun... anyone else want to contribute questions?

4. Are you dedicated to being a thoughtful person? Nice. Nice is maybe undervalued these days.

5. Are you capable of feeling all your feelings and then moving on with action?

6. Do you have any gold, silver, precious stones or other trinkets for trading/barter in a non-fiat world?

7. Do you really really really want to survive?

[write4change]

Eagle,

You are right about standing your own company. I have seen many people try this only to find out it is a fantasy. You have to love the work and when you do that it is not work but love. I love watching the stone wall rise, I love seeing the stalls get clean, I love seeing the earth bloom and the butterflies celebrate. I love working to exhaustion and then lying under a tree and feeling the goodness of the earth and know I just gave her my best.

A lot of people can stand the silence. A lot of people can't stand turning into the pace of nature. A lot of people are addicted to drama and distraction. My washer overflowed. I am in crisis. Not a clue what a real crisis is.

By the way is sh...t considered a bad word here and not allowed? Or just your personal preference?

Why would horses derail the thread. I am not into doing that kind of training etc. In a world after this you will need them to work. I am just saying I have really done my homework with certain kinds of animals we will need. The point of doing all this is to do all the thinking required. Because I have failed at this, i know how much better you have to plan. And like Sol Va says do we really really really want to survive?

The fact many people are looking away means they don't. And many are like children that don't understand death means for form as we know it THE END. I have friends that want everything to collapse so everyone is forced to start over. They just have no idea what the consequences are that they are asking. Many people who think they are libertarians will be in for a rude awakening.

And if there is such a physical state can I vibrate fast enough to get the ETs to beam up my animals. LOL

[doodah]

Hello everybody,

w4c, I'll have to study all your responses, there's almost too much information there to take in easily. I did see one thing that caught my eye, though, and it was about a statement of purpose or something like that. I would hope that our thinking and planning would be for the final stages of total collapse.

Drip irrigation needs electricity if you mean the systems I've seen, all that piping... I would suggest that we plan for easily maintained low-tech power sources - windmills, waterwheels, gravity feeds, etc. - or are you thinking that we would be using the current power system??

I would definitely want to go with the Earth ships. You can heat them with a 40 watt bulb if you've got electricity, or candles, if you've got candles!

No disrepect intended, but living at Omega is not really a synonym for end of the world planning, I don't think. You're not going to have the best of everything. You're going to have what you can make with your own hands without a backhoe or chainsaw and what you can grow, and also importantly, store.

So, as to a statement of purpose, I don't know if I'm thinking more radically than others here? Almost every community I've seen is not really prepared to go it alone. Almost all of them are still using the system. In half of them people go back into the system to work each day, or they go to the movies on the weekend or they fly somewhere to visit relatives. I don't want to do any of that, which makes my thinking more like the Amish, perhaps?

I wouldn't want there to be an aristocracy or workerbees, not in a population of 36 permanent residents. Everybody will have to be a workerbee. Everybody will have to do the jobs nobody wants to do, more like Gandhi's ashram.

I know of a very successful survival community that has a year's worth of food stored away. It has been accomplished by 3 families that moved from Wisconsin to Virginia 37 years ago. They lived in tents for three years while they built structures. They are totally off the grid. Once established, they built cabins scattered through the woods where people can visit for periods of time and contribute labor to the community. It is the three families that are the aristocracy there; everyone else is transient.

I want to be a permanent resident, part of the core and the labor force that makes this community work. I would expect and plan for no help from outside.

I'll try to catch up on all the info here tomorrow so I can better be up to speed and join more in the dialogue. 9eagle, that young man sounds like a wonderful candidate. Do you think he'd like to join us?

'Night all,
~ Doodah

[write4change]

Modwiz has graciously said he would help me post pictures and stuff in his own way and time. I need to inform you all that I have very limited abilities on the computer. I was kicked in the face by a horse when I was 58. I awoke in the ER without a memory. Most of my recovery has been on my own learning from the web. Finding out about neural plasticity. Using brain luminosity etc. That is why you may sense in me this drive to pass on stuff that I know and stuff that I have.

The houses you are going to see. Are cheap, creative, highly functional and wonderful to live in when you decide you are no longer into stuff per se. There is a test village in Victorville, California I have visited. All of the progress on this came to a halt when Bush came in. This technology was developed by an Iranian. TPTB do not want safe, clean, beautiful housing available on the cheap. An the inventor Nadir Khalili died a few years ago. Somewhere on the net is a speed film version of one of these earthships being built in 24 hours.

I have a book on this with detailed pictures and it is titled Earth as Our Home. These things have survived tornadoes, typhoones, cyclones, sand storms etc. they are warm in winter and cool in summer. They are easy to individualize and many people make them into works of art. So far they have not been allowed to be built any where but out in the boonies. they were originally invented for lunar housing on the moon. Before his death, he formed this non profit and make the plans etc. available for free. All to no avail.

I hope you click on and then google and see a bunch of these. Everytime I do -- it makes me feel warm and fuzzy remembering how it feels to sleep in one.

to me this is co creation with the Earth.

[wolf_rt]

Thanks very much for this thread, hopefully i'll have something to contribute once i get my thaughts together

[modwiz]

Doodah wrote
No disrepect intended, but living at Omega is not really a synonym for end of the world planning, I don't think. You're not going to have the best of everything. You're going to have what you can make with your own hands without a backhoe or chainsaw and what you can grow, and also importantly, store.

I was not suggesting synonyms.

What is most important about Omega is the human factor. No matter how ingenious the infrastructure is conceived it will be of no avail with out an emotionally healthy and spiritual aligned people. Most people get distracted with hardware and the material considerations and assume that everyone will just get along well because in TV and movies no matter how tough things get they all work out by the end of the script. In most scripts anyway. I stand by my positing the importance of the human factor.


I wouldn't want there to be an aristocracy or workerbees, not in a population of 36 permanent residents. Everybody will have to be a workerbee. Everybody will have to do the jobs nobody wants to do, more like Gandhi's ashram.

Is there no overseer/coordinator at the Ashram? Like the beehive analogy, there needs to be at least one coordinator which is resonant with the concept of aristocrat. My language use takes some poetic license.


I wouldn't want there to be an aristocracy.....


I know of a very successful survival community that has a year's worth of food stored away. It has been accomplished by 3 families that moved from Wisconsin to Virginia 37 years ago. They lived in tents for three years while they built structures. They are totally off the grid. Once established, they built cabins scattered through the woods where people can visit for periods of time and contribute labor to the community. It is the three families that are the aristocracy there; everyone else is transient.

I hope you will forgive me for perceiving a little cognitive dissonance here

Thank you for your comments

[modwiz]

Write4change has requested that I post this website for your perusal and possible delight. I have not had a chance to dig in but as a meal it looks extremely palatable.

http://calearth.org/

Enjoy

[write4change]

Doodah,

I have given a lot of thought to your posts. And the issues you raise need reflection.

1. My goal is build a community totally off the grid. But you have to start with what you have. The problem with Zeitgeist is not that they are wrong. They are right but their plan is so big and so all inclusive that there is no path to get there. If you are going to build these big planned cities and they would have to be big to be viable: 1. as the world exists today, you can't do anything without money. so everyone has to make a living some how, 2. You have to the use the energy currently available to make better energy. It still takes energy and money to build a windmill. The better the tech the more expensive to build. 3. You're going to take down Cleveland and simply start over because Cleveland needs that? Or where in the boonies are you going to find the ways and means to do it. 4. And if the ETs even handed it to you, how do people suddenly change their mind set to make the city work and function?

Perryton, Texas and that area is pretty windy. You can build a wooden windmill with canvas sails like the Dutch which will produce enough energy to run drip irrigation. But that is just one issue. You have to decide on the whole plan and each piece has to be thought about. What are you going to produce and why? The joy of living for me is creating and producing. Life feels good with a purpose. I have some ideas in mind and I share them. If I am on the right track the universe opens more doors and windows and like attracts like and we work on it.

This is a difficult plan because it has many layers. 1. What we choose has to be able to be implemented in less than a year if we move in September/October. 2. It has to be cheap enough that money is not the determining factor. 3. It should be for most people, who are willing to choose this, a life plan. 4. If most people just want to take a year out to wait and see; you must be able to disband without a lot of pain to the people involved. 5. You have to have a plan if life just continues as we know it and you want off the grid and the rat wheel. That means you have to be acceptable to your community and you need to see your community as a resource center that you contribute to. 6. If you also have to take in planning for a major crisis and surviving it, you have to plan address all the issues of the worst case scenario. You can store seed etc. but what animals and, you will need animals, can you save. You will need animals for a variety of things here--even if you no long eat them and you might need to do that in small amount in total devastation-- you will need fat to make candles and soap. And in 1960 I won my HS science fair in chemistry for doing just that. I spent six months experimenting with all the ancient soaps to modern that I heard about and made samples of each. So there has to be an element that I was born to do this.

What is the easiest animal to preserve--for all kinds of things--rabbits. You dig down deep enough in the earth you think they will survive. You line that earth with hardware cloth to keep other predators out. In this pretty big hole in the earth you fill it back up with fiberglass dog igloos in various places and dirt surrounding each one. You put in some large PVC pipe for tunnels for them to move around in and leaving them room to learn to be semi wild again and dig their own. Just before the event you cram a bunch of corn seed in and alfa hay bales down there cover it all up and seal it all up and eventually hope for the best. Same as you are going to do for yourself and the rest of the community.

No plan will succeed without the grace of the universe and the understanding of the spirituality that the community must choose and stand on. One of the things i will bring is a thousand books. Knowing me by the time we are ready to seal I will have another 1000 and I will be getting more selective. You can seal those up in those steel containers. Not only am I a teacher, historian, and researcher -- I was an ER nurse for 10 years in LA. I know as much as any doctor did in the 1930s for sure more when it comes to theory knowledge and as much when it comes to treatment. That will be important for the group to have. I will bring some basic medical books. But we will make list of things that we will want to store to face that kind of crisis. Here in LA I can get good reading glasses for 99 cents. I will want to store about 50 of them in different strengths. you have to look at the things people will need and there will not be any for a long time.

One of the things I highly recommend is reading and seeing the Postman again. What do they have? What are they missing? What has high value? How many bottles of sealed aspirin and stuff like that do you want to store?

There are videos I would choose for everyone to see. Basically, if things stay the same without a physical catastrophe we are still going to have complete political and financial collapse because the PTB are not that smart. Or they are so smart they are stupid. Their plan is like starting a fire to easily get rid of the weeds and then they loose control because they never thought thru the worse case scenario. They believe their power points. They believe in their own power of creation. They believe they are making history and they are but not the way they think.

That is why I believe small groups will do much better. you are no threat and therefore no target. there is great beauty in just living your own life and letting everyone else do the same. I am personally not into any kind of aristocracy concept. But all forma of leadership are on the plate while the group that is becoming makes it decision.

Actively try looking at some films that go back to the 1870s. They did not have no energy, they had low energy. It was not a terrible life but it was a hard working life for everyone but in those days people did not think it was such a hard life on a whole. There is a BBC series documentary about these people who were given an abandoned farm for a year on some Lord's estate. I think it is about 16 hours and I watched it all. Eventually I will want someone who knows how to make copies of it. What you see is them making all this stuff and exactly how it is done. They bring in these old people who are the last of their kind on some of these crafts. They show how to make baskets out of tree bark that last a hundred years. I had seen some of those baskets and I had no idea they were made out of treebark much less how to do it. That stuck with me because it was so surprising. But I saw my grandparents do some of this stuff. Make ginger beer, and dandelion wine etc.

People who are attracted to this not only have to do lots of things that I listed like switching to vegan diet gradually but they will have to decide what they want to learn and start doing it. From crafts to playing the harmonica.......This choice is not for the weak or the weak minded.

[modwiz]

I love this last post of yours W4C. I can feel your power growing and the passion to do this properly building. You are very inspiring.

I want to clarify my aristocracy concept is more poetic than literal and was built more around a benefactor with vision and means.

You are a treasure and invaluable resource for anyone looking to build a meaningful life in the 21rst century. I am directing attention here from the other Avalon as a Model Community thread because this is where it can evolve beyond talk.

The posts, if and when they come, will reveal much of what people are looking for and have to offer. In another post I would like to provide my skill sets, as I think it might be a good way to see what tools the Universe brings to this eddy of consciousness.

IMHO you were called for this and are selflessly putting it out there for any who care to take a look.

[doodah]

Thank you w4c. I'll take some time today to sort through all the info you're giving us. I don't want to straddle the fence any more than I have to, I'd rather leap the fence. Although I understand where you're coming from, working in and around TPTB, I'd say we should find the place with the least possible restriction, the least local regulation over what you can and can't do. For instance, 36 people, how many dwellings? Where I am, in Virginia, there are limits to how many dwellings you can put on so much acreage... that keeps people from being able to build "compounds" and you end up with big single dwellings that can house many people in order to get around that. I still envision a village, many dwellings.

Mod wiz, I can see where you're finding cognitive dissonance in what I said. The aristocracy at the place I mentioned is 6 people, those three families who started the venture and were permanent residents. They were the aristocracy because they were the ones doing it, with transients coming and going who were never permanent residents. We're talking 36 people as permanent residents. All of them should be united in common purpose, with similar commitment to the overriding "philosophy" of how we want this to work, as well as being willing, themselves, to do the work to make it happen. They would have to be, in order for it to work in a harmonious manner. Maybe this is rule by consensus rather than rule by aristocracy. I prefer rule that is fluid, shifting amongst the members as needed, with no one controlling hand. Many native tribes functioned this way. I like to think that we're more or less creating a tribe.

[write4change]

Doodah,

Please please do me a favor and click on the link provided in Post number 59. I think you will get happy.

[doodah]

Thank you. I did. They're gorgeous. I've done quite a bit of my own research over the last 5 years, and I remember checking those out. The question is whether that is considered a single dwelling or a multi-family dwelling, in TPTB parlance, and what restrictions there are on building that. In terms of the Earth ships only being allowed to be built in the boonies, isn't the boonies where we want to be? It's where I want to be!

And yes, at some point we should make lists of our skill sets.

[Lifebringer]

I enjoyed the commentary and welcome to posting.
I used to be bitter because I saw things that others wouldn't believe, felt things others didn't but here, I feel at home and call myself an Avalonian of Earth in light of disclosure of the truth.

I summed it up to greed over life. Putting a price on everything that sustains life, and creating a monopoly to make the people who work and slave for crappy wages, always beholden to the company bottom line, and not universal compassion for life and freedom of existence.

I hope to spiritually meld with others here, to change it by "thinking it through to outcome for truth."
Demand it and tell the media, to stop with the fairy tales, we are not children.
Lies for corporate resource profits?
Not on my watch.

[write4change]

Doodah,

Google Parryton, Texas and look at their pictures etc. they have their own web site. It is in the panhandle of Texas and will be near the new equator if this happens. It is out in the boonies for sure. It is two hours from the nearest big city of Amarillo. In Texas if you are buying fee simple agricultural land there are no restrictions like that.

To survive a geologic event you look at geologic history. The drop off of the west is do to two things--the force of the Pacific ocean with 1000 foot tsunamis and the pre existence of the tectonic faults plate lines to begin with. This far north you have the 600 miles of land and cities to act as baffles. Plus the Gulf of Mexico by its shape allow flooding and undulation but not 1000 foot tsunamis. This land appeared to survive in the past and has layers of dirt deposited from literally being dumped from the skies. There is no target to tactically nuke. TPTB if they survive from their holes will want this land for food in the future.

I am not committed to Parryton. But I know Texas law pretty well and that is important. I also know their thinking on a whole. People up in that area live and let live on a whole. Highly independent and stoic. Home schoolers and Bible Belt but not prostelitizers like the big mega churches in the big towns. I looked first where could I survive if I do this on my own. I found I could rent a 3 br house in that area for 500 a month but of course there are only two for rent. Very little if any apartments. None came up on my search. Of the 26 counties in the panhandle at least 10 have nothing listed for sale.

Oklahoma is the reddest state in the union. They hate their own Indians. They still do blood feuds. They are cheaper than Texas but who needs the added aggravation. Texas is enough cultural shock. It saving grace is they will leave you alone if you don't get in their face. Getting further North you don't know how the Great Lakes will empty. Nor what the Mississippi or Missouri will do.

If this geologic event happens the US will probably no longer be the US. How that all plays out is infinite speculation. In the boonies, it will be survive or die on your own. Texas is not where you go for a helping hand. The US census says Texas is 49 for per capita state and local taxes averaging $ 1, 434. Their medicaid budget is 7.3% and the average for most states is 21.8. Texas is now planning on totally eliminating medicaid.

The air is clear. You will have your own well and septic system. You eat healthy and you exercise regularly by working. If you have a united happy spirit you live well and die a natural death in a natural life span. You don't do convalescent hospital. But I think all those things pass with this change I can really feel.

This ranch that I found of 20 acreas, a house and a barn for 197,000 is doable. It is a threebedroom, 2 BR home. Really huge living room and big kitchen. 20 by 20 reinforced basement for the tornadoes. It is big enough to allow community living while we build our earth homes. If things stay the same it will make a good community center and guest place. It gives us the time and place and space to do the rest. What I believe is that when we are ready to do this, the universe will manifest the place for us. But some properties like this have been on the market for 18 months so far. They aren't big enough to make the traditional living ranching and Texans are the least imaginative people I run into. It is the same old, same old. they dominate the land, they don't work with it.

Next the cover story/vision

In many ways, my big gift is my many failures and knowing why. And by failing I am free to pick myself up and start over and not be tied to the land that is going.

[doodah]

Personal experience: Oklahoma? No thanks. Oklahoma is the scariest place I've ever seen. I have a very strong ability to read energies of place, but some of the places I really love may be problematic if things shift.

So this 20 acres, we could build Earth ships there and not be bothered? Is this the place where the buy-in would be $1700 or something down payment for each person? What's the rainfall like? [just in case you happen to know; I can look it up...]

Thanks w4c

[Whiskey_Mystic]

Fascinating topic. Thanks for starting it.

I think it is natural to desire a Utopian living ideal. In my case, I have a deep need for belonging, acceptance, contribution, freedom, and security. I consider this one of my vulnerabilities, so I am always on the lookout for anything that might try to leverage that vulnerability.

I live in Northern California in Marin County and have family in Siskiyou County, so I have been exposed to some communal projects, though I have never participated. What I have seen has made me steer clear of them. It seems like one of two things happen with these groups. Either they are formed around a single leader or around a group democracy ideal.

In the case of a single leader, there seem to always be members of the group competing with each other for position in relation to this leader. In the case of democracy, alliances form to try to gain power over others and force their beliefs onto them. Example: the Vegans demand that the vegetarians stop eating cheese. There also always seem to be those willing to let others do the work and use the situation to avoid growing up rather than explore high concepts of community living. It also always seems that drugs end up in the mix somewhere and tend to be a negative factor.

I always feel like the end result is no different than the world they were trying to get away from. Sorry if I sound overly negative. This is just the impression that I have gotten from the position of an outside observer.

I am reminded of Winston Churchill when he said "Democracy is the worst form of government, excepting all others that have been tried." I believe that the human species can find a political and economic system that reflects and encourages an enlightened populace, but maybe we have to grow up first. I certainly want to see it happen and be part of it. Goodness knows that what we have now sure leaves me cold.

[write4change]

WhiskeyMystic,

Interesting paradox right there? What you observe does usually happen. The leader kind because they usually own the land or have the most assets. The second kind because they never really started from scratch, never considered all the ramifications of doing so, and third never contractually addressed the issues. To make this work, you have to abide by the legal system in place now. To do this everyone comes to the plate with their down payment in this case we are right now projecting no less than 1700 dollars. Thus, everyone has an equal financial stake. The next thing before you ever go to a limited liability corporation you draw up the mission statement, the by laws and the detailed plan of how the mission statement will be implemented. Thus, there are no hidden agendas and everyone knows what they signed up for. This is essentially what they did in Muerietta Hot Springs and that lasted 30 years until they got an offer to sell out they could not resist---everyone walked away with at least a million.

[Franny]

Write4change has requested that I post this website for your perusal and possible delight. I have not had a chance to dig in but as a meal it looks extremely palatable.

http://calearth.org/

Enjoy

I've been there and it's very worth your time. The houses are comfortable and efficient. When we had the last fire here I had decided that if my place burnt down I would replace it with one of these. The last time I checked it cost about $10,000 US to build the 400 sq ft model, but may have gone up since.

[9eagle9]

I'll be the first to admit I don't do a whole lot legally. Or at least not the satisfaction of the PTB. Legal is THEIR laws. Mind you I don't encourage people to do anything legal or illegal. Both are the same. Its simply a another matrix mind trap.

That's why my woodstoves aren't installed. I tried to be temperate and legal and it bit me in the ass. Because that system from the township level up is nothing but corrupt on a personal level and a organized level. If our system wasn't awash in corruption we'd not be here talking about getting away from it. I got off the hook only by smarts, deception, and cornering the little busy body rat fink contractor that narked me out for violation and making clear he understood that if he were going to play games he better make sure he better be more clever than I at playing them.

He wasn't. Because he's still a mind slave to the system. And the ego that keeps us there. All I had to do was not agree with him about elevation and off went that manly ego and he was going to bring my ass down. That's what he said based on what I said, not what I did. And that's what is beef was based on, my non agreement with his worldview about elevation. I won't tell you what the real issue was going on there it ad nothing to do with elevation or even construction.

Suddenly the 'thought' of violating the elevation is a legal matter that he must busily involve himself in. Just the merest whisper that you might not go along their plan.They stampede, they panic and they pull the trigger too fast. That's when they rush off to dig their own grave. You get to put the last shovel full on if you keep your head on straight.

How do you violate elevation. The same way you fight the war on terror.

Most of our PTB are like that. How can they say you are illegal when their system is rotten and blatantly corrupt from the inside out. He ended up digging his own grave, and now the township thinks he's a lying assbag and don't take any of his violation tattle telling seriously. He screwed them out of a serious fine that no doubt he would have got a kick back from, because he tried to make the situation fearful, threatening and extortionist and based on his manly man ego. He made it personal. This isn't personal, its supposed to be government--impartial. Is a damned woodstove, its freedom. From them, from everything.

So in a balancing universe that turned out all right because i have a sort of immunity now. From the township anyway. If I don't react they'll go blundering over the cliff themselves because they are sheep. I know . Used to be one myself. I know how sheep behave.

They are in slave mentality mode. Stop thinking like a slave and one doesn't have to pay like one.

They'll permit you to death once you open the door. Statutes the PTB don't even abide by ...and they can't even substantiate. It depends on how well one's understanding of UCC code is. How the whole racket is set up because its a racket. Yet we are in violation? We are unlawful. Make me laugh.

When I meant off grid I mean off grid not just the power companies, and food suppliers and medical professions. . I couldn't buy a windmill immediately but I could stop paying for the privilege of being a slave so that I could actually keep enough of what was mine to begin with so I could in fact one day purchase a windmill.

If I kept with the legal pay game, I'd never have been able to accomplish what I have so far, I'd still be in slave mentality mode.. Granted it takes some forethought of how the system works so when the system comes knocking ( in a deviant and unlawful fashion themselves ) you know what to say and do so you aren't paying them off , once again, to be a slave to the system. Which is part of the grid. The grid is only in place because we keep paying for it to be there.

I haven't been cited or ticketed for 20 years at least. Was I legal that whole time? No I just wasn't pre guilty. Alot of how we cross the law is how we are vibrating on the inside.

But I told myself if you continue this travesty you will simply be paying them off so they will leave you alone and I couldn't live with that in myself. That's what criminals do. They give a payoff of based on fear extortion. I'm not a criminal, I don't want to become them. So I have to stop behaving like them.

But there's no lack of knowledge out there how to circumvent 'pay to be a slave.' First do nothing. Its the first moment the fine, the lein, the levy, the permit violation, the foreclosure is mentioned that we stampede and run into the trap. If they don't get you in the first ten minutes after presenting 'thier facts' they know they never will.

Nope no lack of knowledge out there. If my right brain can understand that stuff someone else left brain can understand it better than I. We just know intuitively this **** is wrong. They depend on our fear and our ignorance, and I wouldn't tell people about this if I didn't know it to be true for myself. The things I cut immediately were the great matrix consumer traps which is extortion thinly veiled by a statue or a code. If i don't get rid of slave mentality on ground level one, inside of me, I had to disconnect from the grid internally,before I did it externally. The fear grid inside.


What I cut was the great cons. ALL insurances. I have burial fund prepaid just in case to burn me when I go. If someone wants to take me out to their back forty and pyre me , I'll sign the policy over to you. I don't care what happens to me carcass (just don't do anything to it you wouldn't do to it when I was living ;)

And the great unmentionables.

My income is 3/4 disposable now with some other shaving. 60 percent recovery of funds that I used to pay out to remain below the radar. I'm still below the radar.

You can't do this feeling guilty though.Or that you're doing something wrong. We aren't. Yes its a risk and its scary sometimes but balls to the wall is where the real freedom is. I can't externally be off grid when internally I still am.

If you stay in the system learn to work it to your advantage. Get your minsters credentials, file your standing with the state and set up a Non profit corp. Churches don't pay what? Let me here you brothers and sisters. WHAT? What don't churches pay?

Don't say it you'll incriminate yourself. ;)

[write4change]

Eagle,

I think any body who has had true agricultural ranked property knows exactly what you are talking about. Legally in California you can elevate three feet and dig down three feet without a permit. All pipes must be laid four feet--thus, permit. All of this is recent. Thus, grandfathering. All of this can be manipulated. It is all based on who the local powers are and how they feel about. On top of that today you need to find out when the satellite for your area flies over and how long between times.

It can really cost almost nothing to build these earthships that was the point. It is the permits that cost. I think they were originally designed for dirt only and then got so you had to add so much cement to the mix. One of the things I want is compost toilets which I have to admit I have only read about. But those people far enough out to get to use them swear by them. I have layers of plans about these depending on what evolves.

I built by the book in Texas because it was simple and coming from California did not seem that expensive and I was in a different place. I moved back to California in 95. Neither my husband nor I had ever owned really agricultural property. What was great about it was it closeness and yet, other world feeling. It was a gift from the universe to learn all this. I was in a canyon and thus, nothing was visible to anyone but from the road which was maybe 2 or 3 hundred feet at most.

But I was excellent at what I did---training and competing in hunter jumpers. This was horse country, the jealousy that you can provoke.......

My ability to imaginatively create out of almost nothing....... invention convention

Even wanting to give it all away in perpetuity made me a bigger threat. TPTB anywhere now do not want the public to have access to anything they value---horses, swimming, experiences. I had one official say to my face you want to give these kids more than I can afford to give my kids.

My property in Bouquet Canyon was once owned by Universal Studios. It had been owned by the same family since the 50s and almost nothing done to it since 65. It cost me 10,000 to initially remove all the garbage that never existed before I bought it. LOL I had pine needles three feet deep in some places. An incredible fire hazard but there were no inspections on the "old" family. After I bought it every anything with a code and ability to fine and access was on the property within 30 days.

So I know what you are talking about in big financial terms. By the time I really understood how all this worked--it was too late to save myself. So I partnered up with a pillar of the community to serve at risk teens. 32 days later I was found bleeding on my front lawn. I awoke in the ER with no memory probably the universe's way of saving my life. I think I had been beaten nearly to death. The story that was told to everyone is my ten year old perfectly trained dressage horse had escaped from the barn, found me on the front lawn, kicked me in the face and stomped all over me. When I wasn't cooking on all cylinders I like everyone else accepted it. None of these people know dip about horses. A horse might kick you in the face out of fear but once you are down they don't stomp all over you. A horse is a flight animal not an attack animal. Once you are down they are gone. I had compressed fractures in my legs and broken ribs.

Since my partner was a PTB no questions were asked. As my senses slowly returned and I began to think and then understand, I moved to the hood of LA with no forwarding address. I just wasted my last 100,000 trying to prove fraud and from that learned how really corrupt the legal system is. My partner said I sold him a 1.5 million dollar property for the mortgage of 500,000. He took a lot of personal things even my husband's and daughter's ashes which I was saving to mix with mine and have put into one replacement coral reefs they are making. The reason he was so mean and took things that would upset me --- was to try and make me crazy and assure I had nothing of value to fight him with. As it was we were in court two years.

I learned for sure how to let go of everything.....stuff, revenge, etc. I have only love of the planet and good people left. I can only do this for the right reasons.

This is a guy personal friends with celebrities and media. He is highly integrated into the LAUSD and gets paid lots of money to "treat" kid drug addicts. His entire resume was a fraud and he only has a high school education and maybe not even a license. So you get the picture--all of this I dug up on my own---my lawyer did zip. On top of that the judge ruled almost everything inadmissible. they do this when they are sure they can bleed you dry and you will not be able to appeal due to time and money. I found this done to other people. Absolute flagrant violation of the law that people are simply not expecting. The honest ones think you go to court and present the preponderous of evidence and justice prevails. Wrong.

Wade Frazier wrote you are not a contender unless someone has tried to kill you or offer you a billion. I was too small a potatoes to be bought out and my land was too valuable not to be stolen. The property was A2, 5 houses with the main house built in the 30s, 3000+ square feet--7 BR and 3BA, two living areas and a stunningly beautiful library. Also a pool with solar heating, a tennis court, 11 out building, 5 barns all backed up to the Los Angeles National Forrest and infinite trails. I was 8 miles from Magic Mountain and College of the Canyons, etc. I had 50foot pines. It was beautiful, I loved it. I did right by it. I think it is all going in the sea if I lived there I would be like the dolphins and just meditate the whole thing. Instead I lived a whole life through so I could do this.

So you have a lot of information I can use or we can use. I think you have a chance where you are as much as we do if we go to Parryton. But you can certainly be one of our guides. We will be allusive to this stuff til we get the need for more specifics. There is so much to everyone's stories and experience. This is how I approach this---do whatever it takes to deal with the PTB---only do it ethically and morally in relation to the common people, the community you belong to, and the earth you are in service to.

[mymoonlightshines]

Freedom is both a simple and complex subject. In the communities of the future telepathy will be more and more part of things. This then addresses the need for alignment in vision of the community, just as all the cells of an organ must be on the same page or trouble results. A meditation of the deeper aspects of this might intrude on what people feel is the freedom to think whatever they want. Yes, that freedom must exist but people of with more unique or culture specific concepts will probably need to establish their own little utopias.

As write4change has so aptly elucidated in her postings, one of the biggest problems with these communities lies with people who are looking for freedom from work, freedom from contribution and responsibility for the welfare of the whole.

With freedom comes great responsibility and emotional maturity. This dearth of such in society at large is very much responsible for the mess we find ourselves in and have found ourselves in for many long years. People willing to give up almost every freedom to a daddy overgroup so they can myopically focus on their own personal needs without concern for the whole.

There needs to be an aristocracy of some sorts. It needs to be small and in symbiosis with the rest of the group. The queen of a beehive is an absolute necessity but her own children are also the workers and artisans.

Freedom calls many, if not most. Screening will be crucial to success.

Sober thoughts to balance the intoxication of liberty.

Modwiz

Yes! I agree with all of it. In order for a community as such to be successful there must be an alignment in values as well. Thank you for your insight

[doodah]

9eagle, I just have to say how much I enjoyed your post. I, too, have not got my woodstove installed. Here, they sort of say you can do this yourself but they won't tell you what the code requirements are except that you need a permit. You have to have it inspected afterward but they won't approve your plans beforehand to be sure you're going to do it right. The fire department people tell you one thing and the building code inspector tells you something contradictory. It all comes down to they really do not want you to do it yourself. They want you to hire a contractor and increase the cost by thousands of dollars.

You also need a permit for a composting toilet where I live, a thing that has absolutely no environmental impact.

The legal system is theirs. The laws are written to support whatever their goals are. A corporation has personhood under the law. Are you kidding me? What an absurdity. God bless Ecuador, which has passed a constitutional amendment giving Nature personhood as well, the only country to do such a thing. They did this in an effort to protect natural reserves which have oil fields underneath them, to be able to assert the rights of Nature to prevent corporations from drilling. I stay as far away from the law as I possibly can, just as I stay away from doctors. Healers are another matter, I don't mind consulting them. Although, of course, w4c, you'd maybe not be here without the doctors. I guess there are times you need them. What a horrible story! Your life is reading like a movie, or maybe like Candide.

[mymoonlightshines]

.


In many ways, my big gift is my many failures and knowing why. And by failing I am free to pick myself up and start over and not be tied to the land that is going.


I have read and reread most or your posts and I have to say that I feel like you are brilliant, and I am attentively taking mental notes on all your insights. I have a very strong vision to create a community such as the one you speak of. My brother Randy and I have been talking about this for 10 plus years (we were both lucky enough to have grown up in a home where we were encouraged to think). About 5 years ago my brother explained to me that he is quiting his job and moving to my parents property to learn how to live off the land. He has spent the last 5 years learning organic gardening and things of this nature. It is hard for people to understand and the immediate reaction is that he lives off my parents but its quite the contrary. My brother and I have discussed the potential that we may have to prepare, not only for ourselves but for our family as well and I feel like its upon us. Fortunately for us we have many contributing members. My brother has a great deal of knowledge on gardening, the use of a root cellar (he is currently in the process of building), canning as well among other strengths. My father is a geotech now, which means he is our designer and he is also brilliant. My mother is extremely resourceful; kind of like you, although she does not get me ( she doesn't even know half the stuff I think about ;)) she will come around I am sure. Then theres my boyfriend who is a strapping young lad if I may say 6'4'' 220 (and super good looking lol) he is phenomenal with spacial relationships and building things. I have 4 boys ages 6 mo. 6, 8 and 9. They all know how to work and contribute and are usually willing to do so (aside from the baby). There are people from my boyfriends family that are not as likely to contribute and this is something I struggle with. How to build in fails safe boundaries so that everyone is contributing to their best potential and no one bears too much of the burdon? Also we would need some more girls in the worst case scenario.

We have talked about staying in the northwest although somehow I feel like this is not smart. I am waiting for some conformation on this, I have been doing research and if coastlines change well...

Thank you again for this thread and for pouring your soul into it
kamarie

[9eagle9]

With the understanding I'm a chicken herder not a poultry specialist, I've only been doing this about 18 months I'll stick out there something everyone can do mostly. A lot of people are doing this in the city too. And its fun.


Chickens….

I can’t eat mine because they are spoiled cherished babies. My babies. 'Scuse me ‘precious’ babies. My big girls…But some people can. I can’t. If one dies by natural causes that’s different. Their entertainment value exceeds anything around here.

Chickens are a very valuable totem. Not hip of course like panthers or bears but they teach how to live in community while still maintaining personal space. I have adopted them as a personal totem. They peck and scratch and bicker but are for the most part peaceable and do well together. Which emphasizes community. We'll always have issues but at the end of the day we'll roost peacefully together.

When well provided for they don’t cannibalize or get stressed out. I had to cull the rooster because he was not a good rooster. He was abusive and demanding and didn’t take care of his girls. He piled eight of them in a corner of the coop and tried to hump them all that the same time. They stopped laying, lost feathers, were getting sick and stressed. So I removed him. *yes that means what you think it means* And if you have a man pestering or imposing on you in a sexually threatening way , cut a roosters head off in front of them. ;) Look them in the eye when you do it, (the man, not the rooster) You will never have another problem with that sort of energy again.

A good rooster will warn of danger, and be close to his hens. He will also go out and forage and bring things back for them to eat. The hens should be better off for him, not stressed and bald.

If I want natural originated babies I will attempt another rooster. For now I am content with picking the chicks up for a 1.00 a piece at the local feed store in the spring, they are pre culled so I know I’m getting pullets. I raise them to a certain size , and until they can maintain their own temperature, in my spare bathroom bathtub. (yes its messy) When they are feathered in well I put them in a heat lamp in the workshop in a separate coop from the rest of the older flock. By that time the weather is warmer so I don’t have to worry about their temp. Then when the rest of the flock is content and scratching around outside is when I introduce the little ones to the big ones so reducing the chances of aggression.

I allow mine into the garden for brief periods of time and let them to nibble on whats in there but direct them to the destructive bugs more. Have to keep an eye on them so they don’t stripe down the tomato plants (they are crazy about tomatoes) Earwigs, mice, all manner of pests. They took out the mice and chipmunks that were raiding their feed bins. They are a vicious lot when it comes to pests. Chickens aren’t chicken. Watching a chicken hunt is hugely entertaining. They hunt in a pack and will all attack a ‘predator’ at once.and then fight over the body even as the predator is still squealing. Hen party, girl fight. If the predator is too much for them they’ll bugle and I’ll come running to carry off a turtle or something of that nature that has invaded their turf and offended them. They have me very well trained.

They come out of the coop and gather around me and chatter and gossip, and inspect me and pull on the fringe of my boots. And accuse. I have a puritan in there that chastises me 'aawwwwwwwwww' in this accusatory tone. They are very chatty. Very good company. I will confess I will diaper a few of them and bring them into my living quarters. They are shameless critics and want to know why I don't have straw on my floor and a place to roost. If yo have edibles out they will help themselves. Or poop in them.

Costs me 8 bucks to feed a month till I can grow me own feed but they eat a lot from my own kitchen, vegetable scraps . Nothing goes bad here, the chickens get it. The wild birds or deer clean up the feed that gets scattered as well so there’s no waste.

The coop was installed inside my workshop. A three sided frame to which the boards where attached. The fourth wall was the workshop wall where the door was so I could let them out into the yard. Essentially a chicken walk in closet. If anything threatened them they could run back in. I had an access door to allow myself into the coop via the inside. Then on the outside I installed 6 foot wire fence around the 2nd floor deck posts for when I want to keep them relatively contained. The deck above shelters them. The posts to the deck were just there so I used them. About one of the least labor intensive projects ever, a 30 foot by 15 foot run.

I let them out to free range during the day when I’m out there with them.

Make agreements with the local predators not to eat your hens. It works. Brother Hawk no longer does fly overs after we had a serious discussion about the flyovers.

I have a small flock, eight hens so I get eight eggs a day , year round. Sometimes someone in there is intrepid and lays two eggs in a day….lol.

Cept for molting. Egg production falls off or ceases altogether when they start molting. I support their molting time by feeding them raw liver and cottage cheese , extra protein makes it a shorter duration . Cottage cheese feedings are hilarious. So is tomato soccer . They love mashed potatoes too with butter. Were a bit dubious about avacodoes. They have decided preferences. Cottage cheese drives them wild. Apples are okay, they'll eat them but its not a feeding frenzy. If I'm wanting to gift someone a little something a couple of carton of eggs does the trick when your on the fly. Two cartons of eggs can equate a hundred dollar hair cut by a swanky pro. I barter eggs for things like that. THEY offer, not me. Its worth it to them. Love eggs taste better, and if you haven't noticed by now I LOVE my girls.


Eggs can be stored on the counter for several weeks without refrigeration, it’s when you pasteurize them they have to be refrigerated. Or wash them. Don’t ever wash eggs, unless you plan to use them right away. they come out of the butt pre sealed against bacteria. . If you get a dirty egg wait and wash it right before you crack it. Ideal food for no refrigeration or no power conditions. I put the shells back into their feed. I grind them up really well so they don't the idea they can eat their own eggs.

The hens provide natural fertilizer. If I use wood shavings for their coop, that will compost in as well.


When my store of eggs gets to be too much, I will be dehydrating them this year for future emergency use. YOu don't need a dehydrator to do this. You can freeze them too yolks and whites. Eggs have become a source of gifting, currency and barter for me.

For those who go the chicken for meat route, I suggest you don’t get emo attached like I do. ;)

Get hard coat (feathered )chickens they are easier to pluck. You don’t have a bunch of downy fluffy fluff that gets all over the place. Grab by the neck and flip over your wrist, their dead. Takes one second. Cut the head off (a nice sharp heavy butcher block style knife is your friend). Bleed out, plunge into boiling water and feathers just peel off. Some people who aren’t interested in the skin, skin their chickens. Chickens WILL run with their heads cut off. Worse they will try to fly. It is horrifying and traumatic to watch a headless chicken take to the air. It's surreal. Be prepared. If they know they are about to go they will 'cry'. This is heartbreaking. Be prepared.

Once a chicken is dead the tension leaves its body and its pretty easy to pluck even without boiling.

I use thyme and other natural antibiotics in their water, but for the most part you don’t have to if you take care of them and love them. My chickens never get sick. I also let them raid the herb garden for short periods of time, they know what they need.

They are very sturdy in spite of their delicacy. A coyote or perhaps a fox got hold of one of my girls last summer. She managed to get away (via my agreements with the land) but most of her back skin was gone down to the flesh. I poulticed her up with plantain. And within a week she was healed up and out of danger.

In the nature of conscious harvesting, like when I had to kill the rooster …his claws, and spurs are honored on the side of the barn along with his wings. I buried a portion of him in my medicine wheel with thanks, his carcass was way too tough for me to tackle went into the woods to feed the critters. His bones are in my medicine lodge. Honor everything and it will return the favor.

The first eggs my chickens produced went to the medicine wheel or back somehow for gratitude . I make it a point especially at this time of year to have an egg (fertility) honor. The land will keep you safe and protect you and yours from harm when you honor it. Doesn't' take long, nothing elaborate or ritualistic is necessary.

I have tried ornamentals like Polish Hens. I wouldn't have attempted this but i took them in as strays. Unfortunately are not good for free ranging. They can't hear or see well due to the fact they have a fluffy lampshade on their head. They will get lost just yards from their roost. I've tracked more lost ornamentals then I care to talk about. Will try guinea hens. They make good watch dogs. Nothing can come on the property unannounced. They are amusing too especially if you have roosters and watch the roosters steal each others hens. I've watched a flock of guinea roosters walk down from the neighboring farm , right down the road, to steal my uncles hens. There's a face off, sort of like an argument with my uncle's roosters that lost. Then by some unspoken agreement all the hens left and walked down the road with the invading roosters. Who needs tv.

I'd upload a photo of one them admiring herself in the mirror (they are vain as hell) when I figure it out the image posting.

[9eagle9]

W4C,

I would love to take what you posted about elevation and send it to the contractor. You have expressed yourself to know 120 percent way more than our local 'expert.'

When he spoke of elevation he was referring to the fact that my living area inside the home is three feet higher than the rest of the living quarters It's elevated. The entirely of the living quarters is on the second flooor. Nothing to do with elevation as we know it. And he knew that even as I was weighing that in my head. Elevation? Huh? HUHHHH? I mean I can't make the connection. Instead of saying ,Dude your numb, I shrugged it off and said, I disagree. There was one ego present, I didn't figure adding mine would make it better.


Again. Who needs tv? And these stories on here are way better for their reality in spite of some of the hardships surrounding them.

[write4change]

Oh eagle,

Those were great stories. I had such a laugh and it feels so good. Some of what you wrote I know. I did not know about the freezing and dehydrating.. I will eventually get back to you on that. Soon we will do an animal thread and I will write about our Rooster Winston. My daughter wrote a book about him. One of the things my grandmother did when plucking her chickens was use a candle on the pin feathers.

Your stories about your contractors are so right on. They are all about money. In LA some of these jobs are also about nepotism and they have some young kids right out of school who know nothing about reality---but they have the huge teenage ego and are not into listening at all. I had to hire a man who used to work in the department who now makes a ton of money as a "consultant" to speak to them on my behalf. Sound familiar.
Even if I didn't say anything you could feel the steam coming out of my ears. So it was the only thing for me to do.

The chickens I raised were exotics just because I found them beautiful and funny. It was the guineas that ruled. BTW, I can "buck buck" just like a guinea. That is how I learned to call them. I could call my raccoon also and she lived free and came when I called. Raccoons "ooo oot" My basinjis played with the deer fawns and they would alternate chasing each other.

When I start the animal thread it will be about Yoda my gentle gray lemur.

You are contributing much. Eventually, we may print this out and have a book. Avalon's first book. I see that as part of the process.

[9eagle9]

At W4C


It can really cost almost nothing to build these earthships that was the point. It is the permits that cost. I think they were originally designed for dirt only and then got so you had to add so much cement to the mix. One of the things I want is compost toilets which I have to admit I have only read about. But those people far enough out to get to use them swear by them. I have layers of plans about these depending on what evolves.

As the days past I'll drudge up some stuff I have some files about self composting toilets you can make at home. Some are simple and some are rather cunning but complex. I have a photo someone made of one used with a regular toilet and a box underneath it. There was a waste oil catch pan attached that had the composting material in it. I'm very interested in a earth ship. I wouldn't have a problem with the land owner erecting one here if we make certain future agreements. I would most likely attempt to put one up for animals first. My costs come from attempting to convert a pre existing structure. An earth ship I'd just build in the fireplaces and the whole wood stove drama would go away...lol.

But I was excellent at what I did---training and competing in hunter jumpers. This was horse country, the jealousy that you can provoke.......


I've been there. Rampant to the point of nauseating even in 4H where everything is political now, based on who has the most expensive taste in tack and premium horses. The kids couldn't ride worth a ****, the horses were unruly and untrained. No ground manners even. Even people who weren't familiar with the concept noticed how sloppy everything was. But inevitably they took home the prizes while the girls with the grade horses who out performed in all ways in spite of their second hand saddles were always overlooked. Interestingly enough the winners had parents who invested lots of contributions int 4H. I won't go into the drama of the hunter barns,, I started at the best in the area and it was bad. Everyplace after that was worse...lol. . At the best I was breaking up fights in the tack room between grown men fighting over panty hose , and the worst was the owners drunk boyfriend threatening to beat me and the horse if I couldn't fit a pony bridle on a 2000 pound warmblood. 'Not ready to go back there soon. Not the people issues anyway . It became all about people and less about what we were there for. I'd like to flame around the net and see what happened to some of my four footers where they ended up at.



After I bought it every anything with a code and ability to fine and access was on the property within 30 days.

Typical.

32 days later I was found bleeding on my front lawn. I awoke in the ER with no memory probably the universe's way of saving my life. I think I had been beaten nearly to death. The story that was told to everyone is my ten year old perfectly trained dressage horse had escaped from the barn, found me on the front lawn, kicked me in the face and stomped all over me.

I suppose he saddled himself up too before leaving the barn? Put his polo wraps on before he stomped all over you?

When I wasn't cooking on all cylinders I like everyone else accepted it. None of these people know dip about horses. A horse might kick you in the face out of fear but once you are down they don't stomp all over you.

No. I've never seen a well trained dressage horse act like that even under duress let alone mosy out of the barn and go on a rampage. It teaches grace under pressure. An escape from a barn is hardly pressure. My horses got out of the barn it was like Jail Break! Let's go to the garden, lets go find mares, lets make her chase after us! Let's play! Yeah we can eat the lawn! They never said Let's go find her and stomp all over her...lol. The PTB depend on public ignorance and all the un equestrian public hears is how unpredictable they are. They try to smear everything with television drama. Watching lord of the rings and the Shadowfax horse comes sweeping dramatically over the hill as Gandalf explains he's never been ridden or bridled or saddled or something. Yet the horse approaches with a clear and apparent sweat mark on its chest. Good job for a horse that's never been saddled. How did the martingagle that left the sweat mark stay on? I'm a kill joy I know. But that's how we stay sane noticing stuff like that....KNOWING even when all evidence suggest otherwise.

Since my partner was a PTB no questions were asked. As my senses slowly returned and I began to think and then understand, I moved to the hood of LA with no forwarding address. I just wasted my last 100,000 trying to prove fraud and from that learned how really corrupt the legal system is. My partner said I sold him a 1.5 million dollar property for the mortgage of 500,000. He took a lot of personal things even my husband's and daughter's ashes which I was saving to mix with mine and have put into one replacement coral reefs they are making. The reason he was so mean and took things that would upset me --- was to try and make me crazy and assure I had nothing of value to fight him with. As it was we were in court two years.

I have had relationship with similar , two. If you don't tell them your issues they are cunning at finding your buttons and pushing them. Not out of entitlement, those people are not content with anything less than obliteration. They want to destroy you. My exhusband was bad, the relationship i got into after was worse. But essentially the same thing. But the marriage. That's what I did. Just walked and let it go. All go . All assets, not a penny did I want. Took me years to get back on my feet again an I don't regret one moment of it. Ain't taking the bait. Eventually he got the judge to order to me to live closer. So ..I moved in at the foot of his driveway. (Grin) . Doodah noted above earlier about being nice and the lack of it. I'm kind and I'm generous but I'm not nice. Course he's losing the house now due to his greed and rebound, and it looks like miniature slum. The relationship after that he deliberately kept things that were of a sentimental nature. He dangles them over my head periodically waiting for me to leap for them. But I won't. That's how they get you back into the game again.


Wade Frazier wrote you are not a contender unless someone has tried to kill you or offer you a billion. I was too small a potatoes to be bought out and my land was too valuable not to be stolen. The property was A2, 5 houses with the main house built in the 30s, 3000+ square feet--7 BR and 3BA, two living areas and a stunningly beautiful library. Also a pool with solar heating, a tennis court, 11 out building, 5 barns all backed up to the Los Angeles National Forrest and infinite trails. I was 8 miles from Magic Mountain and College of the Canyons, etc. I had 50foot pines. It was beautiful, I

I loved mine too. I see it every day though...lol. My property line unfortunately for the ex ends directly in the back of his house. I loved it all not quite as fancy as yours but to a kid that came from dirt literally (farming )having never lived in a house over 12sq feet that was like a dream come true. An estate, pool, pool house, sunken hot tub. I didn't have my priorities straight of course but that experience of money and all that fancy home helped me to get them straight. Unhappy home to say the least. But the intimacy I developed with the land was enduring. It wasn't a court order that brought me back here the land did. I'd anchored myself then, and there wasn't a court or an ex husband that could overide that.


I think you have a chance where you are as much as we do if we go to Parryton.

Oh I do. I'm in my environment. I'm not concerned with the Great Lakes, simply if that was a threat I wouldn't be here. Realistically if an event like that were to occur, I can't really see it effecting much more than Lake Michigan. Maybe a short term event. They would reclaim themselves fairly quickly. And I don't know they haven't been draining them off for years now covertly. The water has receded much more than cycles can account for. Someone asked me if the lockes at the Soo could be shut to prevent Huron from spilling into Michigan and getting sucked south. An interesting question. A locke is nothing but a dam. Dunno gonna check it out. At any rate Michigan has and will be a safe state because of the proximity of the lakes which tend to take on a buffer effect. We don't have the terrain for mudslides, the forests don't over fire like they used to, not much in the way of floods even though Michigan is really just a huge swamp and sand pit with a high water table to begin with. Very odd we should have more than what we experience due to the peculiar geo structure but we don't.

I loved Texas I spent a few weeks there a few years back It was like being on a different planet. People were much politer. Kinder. It was disconcerting for me to find a man sleeping outside my room . I tripped over him when I left my motel room . He wanted to tell me he thought I would make a good ex wife. If that happened up here I'd be howling in outrage. Down there it was funny because there was no malicious intent. Weird yes, malicious no. It was good for me to experience the less lethal side of life.There's pockets of very metaphyiscal places down there. Like Wimberly visit it and the river there if you haven't and get the chance. And the land itself is just haunted with spirits. The roam all over. Seen war ponies running up and down the highway that weren't there. I had considered moving there and had it on my short list but I'll put that out there as if it happens it happens.

[wolf_rt]

Well I'm hoping to get my thoughts in better order as i write this, forgive me if i ramble.
I don't have any personal experience with 'Utopian' living but i have known for a long time that this is where we as humanity must go, willingly or not.


I watched the new 'Zeitgeist moving forward' movie the other day, and i must say i have become deeply troubled in the following days.
Not while i was watching, but during the following day, i came to believe very strongly that the world view sold in 'Zeitgeist moving forward' Is actually Agenda 21 (http://www.truthistreason.net/taking-liberty-agenda-21-explained) looked at from a different angle.

This is extremely disturbing for me, if the movement toward living in harmony with nature is taken over by the movement to lift nature above us as god(Agenda 21) much is lost.....

The Synchronicity of the AI in the Zeitgeist movie to recent talk here is odd.

If we wish to neither destroy nature or ourselves, living WITH AND IN Nature is the only viable solution. Elevating Nature above us will lead to catastrophe just as surely as elevating ourselves above nature.

It is not technology that has lead us to this precipice it is our perception of technology that is at fault.
We cannot remove ourselves from nature with technology!

I'm as much a inseparable part of nature sitting here on my computer in my house, in my city as a person living in the Amazon rain forest, or a person in a space station/ship. Or for that matter a person in a dome city eating food grown in 90 story skyscrapers (aka agenda 21)

The authors of Agenda 21 and the authors of the Zeitgeist Video and the authors of social change in the last 200 years have all missed this point...

We are a part of nature weather you like it or not!

Sorry if I'm belaboring my point here, but this just seems crucial to me.

I do not see the movement to sustainable living as something for individual survivalist 'communities' this is something the whole world needs to do, and can do, with no loss of life required.

I see that many of the problems that plague 'Utopian' communities stem from money/ownership, and leadership. not suprising..

I believe i may have a solution. (I really, really hope i have or can come up with a solution!)

Every adult family gets 1 Hectare of farmable land.

These blocks could be arranged into Communities... Or not... depending on the preference of the family.

These blocks and the produce grown on them are NOT taxed, in any way.

The residents of the blocks have full title to the blocks

The blocks are available to any person or group of people who declare themselves a family unit.

I imagine that you would be expected to live on your block or pass it on to somebody who will.

All the food required to feed a family can be grown in this space. (If you don't build a Mansion on it)

These blocks would not be connected to utilities of any kind. (Perhaps telecommunications if a individual or community was willing to pay for the connection)

Individual Composting toilets would be mandatory, inspections welcome.


There are many very good reasons that governments would be willing to consider this.

1. They don't have a better plan...lol
2. the people who would be attracted to this lifestyle are poor consumers.
3. These people are taking up jobs that other people could have, hence reducing unemployment.
4. Any money received by these individuals for fresh produce, is likely to flow immediately back into the local (conventional)community for labor and services, stimulating the local, and hence national economy.
5. Anybody who eats the produce that has been grown with love is far less likely to become sick, lowering the burden on hospitals, and increasing productivity.
6. People would be willing to rehabilitate depleted farmland, that is in danger of becoming completely destroyed.
7. Freeing up existing housing will lower rental prices, in a time when the poor most need it.
8. Governments KNOW that change is necessary to avert extremely difficult times. This is a way to begin that change with NO risk of violence, NO chance of devastating consequences, NO lost GDP, AND these blocks would provide a buffer for the population in times of crisis, AND it sets a good example for the rest of the nation, in times when conservation, and living within our means are of great social import.

I would be thrilled if people can find and share more reasons why governments may find this idea attractive.. Remember MOST politicians really WANT to do the right thing!

(BTW, this concept is not mine, see the 'Ringing ceders of Russia' 'Anastasia' books for a different, and very worth wile IMHO take on this plan)

[write4change]

Kamarie,

Your writing shines your heart in so many ways like your beautiful handle. I hope you contribute your experience with the land and organic growing.

When I had the ranch in Texas, I had an extended family. I have three brothers and a sister. The sister and I are very alike although I am 19 years older. My fathers two families were really rinse and repeat. Two of the brothers never married or had children. A very wise choice. My family is highly dysfunctional. The family back in New York was once huge and now almost non existent.

What I know for sure is building an intentional family is by far simpler and easier. Blood tie love is very complicated. It is very binding. That binding can often be toxic. I have nothing to recommend one way or the other just know that from a distance your initial gut level you have thought about for years is accurate. This will be difficult. It may also be a very meaningful and purposeful evolution for all of you.

Sometimes it feels better to know that someone else out there gets that the mountain you may be planning to climb is hard and steep.

Love, Jai

[Whiskey_Mystic]

W4C asked me to post a few photos for her. I'm sure she will explain what you are looking at. I only have time for a few right now, but I understand she would like more posted. I can get to those tomorrow evening.

http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i157/SealJuice/th_Untitled-3copy.jpg (http://s71.photobucket.com/albums/i157/SealJuice/?action=view&current=Untitled-3copy.jpg)http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i157/SealJuice/th_Untitled-2copy.jpg (http://s71.photobucket.com/albums/i157/SealJuice/?action=view&current=Untitled-2copy.jpg)http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i157/SealJuice/th_ecodome.jpg (http://s71.photobucket.com/albums/i157/SealJuice/?action=view&current=ecodome.jpg)http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i157/SealJuice/th_construction.jpg (http://s71.photobucket.com/albums/i157/SealJuice/?action=view&current=construction.jpg)

[Hybrid5226]

9Eagle9
I read your story about the chicken raising an had to tell you how much I enjoyed it . Brought back alot of memories.

I have a brother-in-law that has a few hens he raises in his back yard an when they lay eggs he takes the eggs with him to the library when he goes there to use the internet an sells the eggs from his hens to the librarian as organic for 3.69 a dozen .

On his way home he stops at the market an buys a dozen eggs for .99cents to take home an eat for himself .

Peace,
Erin

[write4change]

My Vision of a Mission:

Success is founded on support. The more support the more stable the vision. There can be many layers to that and many ways of expressing the vision.

My legend of choice is the Lamo Vad from the Kaballa in which 36 people unknown to the world vow to live their life in service to the life of the planet. As long as those 36 exist the world will go on and the minute there is no 36, the world will end. The Hopi also believed that as long as they prayed for the earth it would endure but they saw their own demise. Thus, you have to have a core belief like this that unites the whole group in both supporting the mission and supporting each other in serving the mission. I also choose the word serving over all kinds of other words I could use. It is an act of humility in acknowledging the greatness of the earth's needs. Buying into humility cuts a lot of other things out.

As a child, watching Disney life features and seeing stop action photography for the first time of a flower opening or a butterfly coming out of its cocoon and taking flight, showing all the life on what looked at a distance of a dead desert. telling how the earth worked. And I remember being told then about ten that the rain forests were the lungs of the earth. I have never been able to understand why the West was not willing to pay to leave the rain forests in peace and let the natives be their caretakers as they had been for thousands of years. From that time, it has always been apparent to me that we were determined to kill the planet if it would make money to do it. I know that to be true and thus, I know that a huge majority of us are insane. It is a form of suicide and suicide is anger and self hatred focused on the self. That is our norm and acceptable. Murder is turning self hatred out and that is pathology which is now almost acceptable.

Living in service to the earth will be seen as Nativism was/is. The stories of going Native have existed since Christopher Columbus. They are used to evidence two things: insanity from the norm and being a traitor to one's own tribe or way of life. Illustration: Dances With Wolves. He is a traitor simply for living with and understanding the Indians no explanation asked or tolerated. From the Indian POV, decimating the Buffalo, wanting extermination as an act of war in depriving the enemy of food---was beyond insanity. The one scene from the book they did not put in the movie but was so horrifying described in the book. Before his marriage, before he really becomes one with the tribe, they are going to take Cosner to their most sacred place--a three day ride. It is a natural circle and grove of old trees 4,000 years old. And when they get there the white man has found it and they describe all the bodies of animals stacked all around skinned. And the damage to the trees and ground. The primitive attempts to cut one down and kill it. It should be noted that at the Paris Exposition the US sent one of these big trees cut down to brag. Look you people at our resources, the biggest trees in the world etc. The Europeans were so appalled at seeing this tree cut down that they shunned that exhibition. They could not express it but had a visceral feeling that this was a terrible violation. Like the pictures were passed around lamenting the poor dead tree, there was an awareness that pictures and other things could have made a better display.

So the goal here is how to be a visionary in a way that fits with things exactly as they are. How do you come new to a community and get them to support you.

Ecotourism is a viable business now. It means you experience the things you should be doing without having to think about doing them. You take a vacation and try it first without inconvenience to yourself. The experience has to be open and has to be fun. No preaching allowed.

Camping is big business in this country. I have been American Camping Association certified as a director owner twice. Had I done this first before making capital improvements I might have succeeded. Buying into corporate thinking I put 350,000 cash into the place before getting certified. I know camping directors that make 100,000 a year and work three months. If I remember correctly there are three universities offering a degree in camping and recreation. Long Beach is one of them. There is a marine life study camp at Avalon, Catalina Island that charges 3500 a week.

One of the things I did was go to a major non profit and offer the property to become a charter school with a mission of teaching ethics by camping and co ordinating with Long Beach. The staff of the non profit was excited but they were very small. The famous celebrity owner ofter having his studies quoted and being on CNN refused to meet with me. He did talk on the phone. Essentially, he said he was totally booked with speaking engagements that made him a millionaire. He sold another half million in workbooks and banner slogans. Why should he hassle himself with liabilities and kids. In effect, he is a national authority on ethics you says to kids do as I say and not as I do. And that is why this country is going to hell in hand basket, because most of the young never get to experience truth with the earth.

When modwiz saw my selection of earthships he said Hobbit Holes which was exactly my first reaction. The way I would have done it then was rent out the Hobbit Holes and have the staff live in the houses on the property. The whole Hobbit Legacy is in the public domain. I would have built creative experiences about being Hobbits for a week or weekend for both families and kids. And not all the time to give the staff breaks but during these now getting longer and longer semester breaks that are now rotated around. I only had to target the schools that were producing camp counselors for staff. Another interesting note: camp counselors have a national waiver on not having to be paid minimum wage. I tell you some of this stuff to establish I have again paid my dues to learn all this. I could tell you camp director stories that would make your hair stand on end.

So moving to Parryton to teach ecotourism as a camp experience might really appeal to the locals. And they will perfectly understand you doing it there because there is no available land cheap enough in most places. Bringing outsiders to spend money etc. might have real appeal if everything is handled sensitively. You are going to have to have a detailed business plan etc.

Here we reverse it and the community lives in hobbit holes with some community ones built for the tourists to experience but they camp during their stay in platform tents. These are tents elevated off the ground with air tight containers stored underneath for all kinds of things. The tents are draped canvas over a major center pole and grommetted into the deck floor. These are two layers of sail canvas with insulation sewn inside. The end flaps are raised or lowered depending on the weather and circulation needs. One of the things I learned is that all temporary anything gets and exemption from everything. You can elevate the platforms three feet without getting a permit. You can build a 12 by 10 deck without getting a permit. You can put up a thirty foot in diameter yurt for a meeting hall and have it almost be permanent. This has been done for a 1000 years. But since it is not....no permit required.

What kind of experience are you offering: building a permanent maze with chicken wire rebarb and corn stalks. Devote an acre to it at least. It is tall enough most people cannot see over and thick enough not to see through. People carry flag poles. You can run singly and in groups and time them. This can also be done on a totally spiritual level. You want both choices available at all times.

Teaching tracking and bow and arrow shooting. How do you do this? You make fake animals or in Texas which has mountains of taxidermy buy them from wives who are dying to get rid of them. You use the feet to make tracks in the gound here and there different places. You know the trails you are developing but not the people. When they come upon the animal they 3 t0 5 seconds to shoot. Teaches a lot of different things. And we will teach the spirituality of taking an animal life, its place in the world, and thanking it and the universe.

Making a stone path meditation labyrinth. Creating spiritual scavenger hunts. Creating hobbit experiences and encourage costuming to go with it.
A night of country fire story telling. Plus talking about the three sisters, the rain forests, etc.

All of this the community has to decide. the brain storming. I have lots of ideas. I have thought about this for years. You can put up telephone poles and do the old trust experience etc. All kind of experiences coming to community. there are catalogues of camp equipment to build various skills of your choosing. There are things like a big salom ski with ropes built for 3 to 5 people. You have to learn to cooperate and communicate to get them to walk.

This setting gives many opportunities to be creative and inspire creation in all kinds of crafts and art forms. but what is more important, we don't have to make any money doing this because we have already planned for our money needs. Therefore , we can do as much or as little as we want. The bigger community does not have to know all our layers of thought. What they have to feel is that you are going to become as asset in a way they understand it. Since that first year will be to building to survive, cooperation gets things done easier and faster. The reality of worrying about the reality of camping comes later.

So that is one idea about building a community mission. What I have not touched is that there is a need for the community to develop a communal spiritual program and their own rituals of implementation. Rituals are important. We in the west feel silly but part of why the masons persist is the satisfying feeling of rituals.

This is a beginning of thinking in forms. By its nature form follows function.

[doodah]

I've enjoyed the stories here, especially the chickens. I've watched wild ducks for many years. It's very obvious that they're having conversations, just like the chickens do, and they laugh at each other's jokes.

w4c, it's also obvious that you're a teacher.

In visiting various intentional communities, I visited a genuine Appalachinan farm which has been created as the lifework of one individual, with the help of many others. It's taken him 30 years to accumulate 300 acres of land on the top of a mountain in western North Carolina. The place is gorgeous. You walk in there (no vehicles allowed) and see randomly distributed structures - a barn with horses and goats - a blacksmith shop - various small cabins - a huge openair kitchen with woodstoves and huge fireplaces made from stone. There are many cabins, some with woodstoves. The impression is that everything is old-fashioned, not electrified. Geese, ducks, and chickens roam about, but at the time I was there they were having some problems with a weasel or fox that was getting at the chickens. A beautiful rooster was sacrified to make chicken soup. There was a small fish pond refreshed by a running stream.

They have built everything using local materials as much as possible. The barn is massive. The rafters are whole trees cut down where the barn is now standing. They built this barn and lifted those trees with ropes and horses for horsepower. The man who has done this is a horse trainer and wild country survivalist. He's lived entirely off the land several times in his life, totalling years. He teaches hunting skills among other things. We have a venison stew while I was there, a deer he had killed in the woods.

For income and to pay the land taxes on 300 acres, they teach the old skills and using the old tools. The weekend I visited, 40 Boy Scouts were there for two days, camping in tents. As a visitor I volunteered for whatever they wanted me to do to help out. I first ended up in the kitchen, which is a wonderful outdoor kitchen, open on all sides but with a roof, large picnic tables for people to sit at. I spent all day chopping vegetables to feed those 40 Scouts plus all the staff. During all that chopping I had a chance to talk with some of the people working there, learn their stories.

They have "staff". The cook and some of the skills teachers are hired in each season. Other "staff" positions are filled by volunteers for the season. Only 5 people are permanent residents. They are so busy dealing with paying customers and have so few residents that they do not grow their own food. They buy it from local farms.

This is a variation on a theme, I suppose, of how people work it out to get something of what they want (living on an old fashioned Appalachian farm, but not entirely) while earning the money they need doing it.

In truth this is not a functioning old fashioned Appalachian farm. It is really more like "Appalachialand", a theme park whose purpose is teaching. I was there long enough to see the non-public side of it. There are maintenance roads running all through the woods around this central old-fashioned area. One of the people hitched up a pony cart and we drove a mile up the mountain to where the freezers and the fully electrified maintenance shop were. They have their own minihydroelectric station somewhere up the mountain, which I didn't see, but there are electric lines running all through the woods. They have a website and a fully electrified office outside of this central old-fashioned area. When there were no outsiders around everyone got into trucks and went down the mountain into town to buy things they needed. They have no craftspeople, no potters, weavers, glassblowers.

Like I said, it's one way people get some of what they want. The local community loves this place. They send their kids there to camp out and learn some skills. Local volunteers show up all the time to join in with whatever project is underway at the moment. On the other hand, I heard more than one complaint about living this life from some of the residents... they complained about not having enough hot water when they wanted it; they complained that they had no place to go to escape each other (although there was 300 acres of land!).

I don't know... it was disappointing in one way and eye opening in another way and I don't for one minute disparage all that has been accomplished here by the force of one man's drive. It's beautiful and very impressive. But basically they were running a business. I hate to sound out of step with all the thinking here, but I don't want to be running a business. It seemed to me that it's the same thing we have now, the same pressures, just in this different setting.

I discussed the possibility of me moving there as a permanent resident and I had to be truthful with the man that the hardest part of it for me would be dealing with all the people, booking them and taking care of them just like a resort. I want to work with plants and animals; I want the peace of that, but they weren't really doing that. They didn't have a "common room" where people could gather, knit by the fire, chat, sing songs.

So I'm still looking, and in the meantime doing my own verison of what I want but I don't have enough land and I don't have community around me. I grow enough food to feed one person, so I have some idea what it would take to grow enough to feed 36! This is no small endeavor.

[9eagle9]

Doodah,

That sounds like it has so much potential. In historical and future preservation. That is even ringing a bell to me, so I'm wondering if I've visited there .

My family is from the Appalachians so I rather have an affinity for it. I learned a lot of the Appalachian Woodcraft and Folk Medicine sort of by osmosis by spending so much time there. There's pockets of lingering down there in the rural areas. Not limited too but including hunting for snakes to sell to the churches down there that still bring snakes in on Sunday to do the God test with. Wild ginseng harvesting, although much of the land has been stripped down there from wild gold hunters. The big 'deal' times when someone was slaughtering a hog. Where someone's washer going out keeps the gossip lines going on forever. Last I was down there you still only had to dial 4 digits on the local exchange to call someone. It's just a given that if your house or barn burns down the neighbors are going to turn out to help you put another up (no contractors neccesary). Or something exciting happens like a horse or cow gets out, its a whole community effort. Or you lose an animal and you know someone will find it and have you come get it or even hold it for you instead of calling animal control. Kerosene and turpentine is kept in the medicine cabinet for fixing remedies. It still exists down there and its not new thought concepts at all. Times just passed it by while they held their own space in time to a certain extent.


For me 'that's the way its done.' Very much Bible Belt but at that same time they don't realize how paganistic they are their rituals of planting under the new moon. Cut your hair on the new of the moon. But their both country people, of the land. I like to take friends down there its still just a culture shock far back in some of those mountain hollers where complete strangers can look at your nose or cheek bones and ID what family branch your from. They'll rattle it right off like your some breed of animal...lol. Your a Gibbons, Welsh Side, that married into Hensley Irish, all their kids and grandkids had dark blue eyes. Or 'she's so hateful you know she's got the Wilson coming out in her.' I mean they knew something about bloodlines without ever being exposed to bloodline concepts. OR the answers people give you when you inquire about someone." Oh its a pity he's on the jar . You visualize someone sitting on a mason jar somewhere until you realize that they are off drinking somewhere.. Lol. I love it.

Their little folksy medicines. "Don't go bout them wild horses, little gal, lessen you have a hot water bottle with you"

Stuff like that stuck with me. Ive seldom ever approached a strange high strung horse without a bottle of hot water.

What few family members that are still able and live down there still use a lot of time honored ways of doing things just because that is the way it has always and should be done....lol. . My family as I mentioned somewhere has their original homestead preserved into a National Park in KY it would be nice if someone made it active and productive again, instead of 'just for show' on certain weekends.

[doodah]

Hi 9eagle... Yes, the place I was talking about has a lot of potential. My final take, however, was that it probably won't survive beyond the one man whose dream it was. There is no real community to keep it going and no structure for leadership. He might decide to sell out (he's had plenty of offers) but I don't know what he would do next. He's in his 50s now, I think, or late 40s. [edit... this is Turtle Island, near Boone, NC]

I know the people you speak about, not exactly those ones, but those kinds of communities. I'm West Virginia married into North Carolina. My mother's people in NC had landgrant land from the Revolutionary War and were working farmers up until Grandpa died and the land got sold off and broken up. We went "down home" with my mother to the old family farmhouse. Grandpa refused to electrify. What I learned is that these people worked hard but they had a good life. But they didn't know it. It was all the rage for everybody to move into the cities where the "good jobs" were. It became almost shameful to come from the farm and so now agribusiness and Monsanto has taken over everything. That's where that road led.

And BTW, I am all for being nice, especially amongst the people you live and work closest with, but I am also for not being an idiot. I have a lot of animal knowledge. It's crucial that you know "the nature of the beast" you're dealing with (this is also symbolic and transfers to dealing with humans). If you are "nice" and let the rattlesnakes live in your house, pretty soon there's nothing there but rattlesnakes. I applaud your spirit!

[write4change]

Doodah,

Your story is so good and the picture painted shows how difficult it is to get to there from here. Why a Zeitgist city may be a century away and that is if nothing bad happens. There is no land you do not have to pay taxes on now and there is no barter to taxes. Thus, to save the land you have to make money. Too keep the bulldozers out of the amazon and leave the natives alone you have to pay the PTB who will never have enough and who will always raise the price. TPTB hava had a network of at least 400 years that we the people really knew nothing about until the net.

I think it is obvious that I am highly educated, highly traveled, curious about all of life etc. but until the net I had no idea how the Federal Bank functioned or what it was. I had no concept of money as debt. Why is that? Why is something as important as the Federal Reserve never taught. You can take history at Stanford and not know about the Federal Reserve with all its ties to oil and banking that produced the Hoover foundation at Stanford and its basic endowments? This did not just happen--it was planned this way.

We cannot blame ourselves. This is the one intention we can as Avalon hold out as intention--justice. We need time to make better choices because we did not get the ability to make choices until rather recently.

With an interwoven web of deceit around us, it takes an enormous amount of work just to dig yourself out. Then you have to recreate entire community concepts of functioning now to carve out space to begin a new future. A huge task.

My choices now are: I can sit in my apartment with my books, my music, and my mind and basically be content. I have the ability to either think myself across dimensions or imagine it. I no longer experience loss. I could drop this body and go. But I have this sense that for me that is not completion. Without completion for me there is no ascension. Thus, I feel compelled to work on --- how do you get from here to there on all the layers.

One of the things held against my business plan was that I was charging too little. My plan called for a camp of $ 350.00 a week with a 10% population of "grants" There is a camp, not near what mine would have been experientially, in Chatsworth in which both Jada Pinkett and Will Smith are involved that charges $1500 a week. They are netting millions on six acres. I was only going to net a million. In the real world, that makes my plan not sufficiently running to potential productivity and to choose not to do so is unacceptable--bad business plan. Craziness in that world. A world fast getting to earth experience for recreation is only for the elites. Laying the foundation for privatizing the national parks which now require years of waiting for reservation and expensive tickets etc. We will sell our parks before we will sell our military bases.

All of this is the expressed reality. Dreaming it away means activating another expression. You can't just say I don't like the business model you must create a business model that the PTB accept for the now so that the now can be extended.

I get where you are coming from. It is where I have been in many ways for ten years but the universe will not allow me to stop thinking about it. In my own way, I may have been brain washed. Or my grandparents kept their cosmic connection by deeply instilling in me -- to whom much is given much is asked.

[autochthon]

W4C, thank you for this whole thread - it was reading this, following Modwiz's link to it in the 'Model Community' thread, which persuaded another 'aging hippie' out of the woodwork and into Avalon. I wanted to comment on the point you made right at the top, about the need (also mentioned by mymoonlightshines) for alignment in values/beliefs before a Utopian society can work out. I think that, even more than holding together groups of people with different skills, is absolutely essential - human nature slips us so easily into antagonism.

The nearest I've come to experiencing such an environment was a few years ago, when I had cause to visit a Camphill village here in the UK. If anyone doesn't know of them, they are based on an idea from Rudolf Steiner - please, if you detest him, don't mess up this thread with comments about him, I have one or two issues with him myself, but there's no denying that some of his ideas work out beautifully. Camphill villages are places where fully 'abled' people care for those with mental problems who can't look after themselves, so there are the aligned values we need for a start. Obviously, to exist in the current world, they do need some sort of arrangement for dealing with money issues, but the administrator of the village takes care of all that, the individual carers receiving only a little 'pocket money' for their individual luxuries - again, with a proper (=money free!) system, that aspect would fade away. It comes as no surprise that the tax authorities hated it - all these adults, doing productive work, driving around like anyone else ... but no income to tax! But, as 9eagle9 said above, "Legal is THEIR laws", and somehow their admin dealt with it.

The village I visited had their own land, which they worked as well as buying in from outside. Not all the adults are carers as such, though of course everyone has to be able to help the more challenged members of the community when necessary - several of them, though, bring their own individual skills, like tractor mechanic, or electrician. (As a lifelong techie myself, I find this reassuring!) Accommodation is essentially communal, though each family has its own space; meals are taken completely communally, with the adult carers, their children, their charges and visitors like me gathering around the same table ... the warmth of the atmosphere blew me away. The 'patients' (not really the word, but I'm not sure what else to call them) contribute to the running by working in their bakery, which supplies bread to the local area outside, guided (but NOT 'managed') by their carers - when I visited, I was put up in a spare room attached to that - a little spartan maybe, but warm and comfortable and I was made very welcome. Unlike so many 'hippie utopias' and the like, these places run for decades - potentially indefinitely, but it's only decades since Steiner was alive. It might be worth having a chat with the administrator of your nearest one, if you can find one, to help work out the scale of expertise and organisation, methodology etc. of keeping such a community running - after all, trying to build a society ain't a quick matter, the one 'outside' has developed (and developed its evils) over centuries. I hadn't mentioned, but even the children don't need to leave the village to go to school - that, too, is provided (a Steiner school, of course) with the teachers being part of the community. Village decisions are arrived at via regular meetings, all welcome.

There may be (must be!) problems, but years later I still feel that warmth whenever I think of my visit, and wonder whether the principle can be scaled up from a village to an area to even bigger. One point which *must* be taken into account is the size of each individual community, which has to take into account the ideal size for the human consciousness - around 150-200 max. Make it too big, and everyone no longer knows everyone else - I live in a city, I know that problem all too well. One thing for sure - you'd get a pretty good start with just the people who've posted here so far; love those 'spoiled' chickens!

Anyhow, my first proper post here, so I hope there's a spark somewhere in it which inspires someone. More posts no doubt when I've re-read the thread a few times - so much forum, so little me!

My love to all - Steve

[write4change]

Dear Steve,

I am familiar with Steiner's concepts. R. D. Lang wrote about a village in Europe that for centuries took in people having mental crisis and basically left them alone but supported their living through it. Many of them eventually recovered. Jung thought a midlife crisis or nervous breakdown was a growth experience. Many deep thinkers have had them. They cannot shield themselves enough from the pain of witnessing man's inhumanity to man. One of the best intuitive shrinks I knew David Viscott killed himself as did Pritikin. Jung and people like him that survived the recognition of total failure of society built a whole new foundation for themselves first. Teaching that always proved difficult.

If this group could evolve, it would produce seeds to do more such groups. When I first came here, I felt this site was too small to be effective. My initial thinking was what could I do to make this group at least a million? That was totally wrong. All those groups are doing is producing noise and not deep thinking. Only deep personal thinking and then deciding to commit to personal change works. The spinning of thoughts here is as fast as I can handle it. It took me years to understand what it means to integrate thought and intention with the connection of heart, mind, body, and soul. The building of a spine of character.

In 05 I was part of a group this size that split off SmirkingChimp and we tried to come to community. We could hardly sustain the site. Then I found an abandoned quarry for sale in Alexandria Louisiana---3,000 for 69 acres. I did a lot of research and presented some of this tailored to that location. Have you ever tried to talk to an intelligent, enlightened, architect in his 50s who has been unemployed or underemployed for years about the value of an Earthship? The kind of change necessary for this planet feels like dying to many. Therefore, they rather die than change. The reality was that we could have tried that for thirty dollars a piece and we could have enabled the few who were willing to go--no dice for 30 bucks.

Now it was all part of my learning experience and all of that would not have survived if we are getting a geophysical event. Part of my thinking about doing this is if we succeed at this level could another group succeed at reclaiming the cut off mountain tops? Are those of us unwilling to try willing to enable those who are?

Part of doing this is in 90 days I want us to be able to go to a web site. By then we should have come to some kind of from if this is going to work. What i will hold out to the universe is asking support for the offering of doing this process. 20,000 people on the net is almost nothing. 20,000 people with intention may be somewhat harder. But 20,000 people at five dollars a month is 1.2 million dollars -- enough to support seed communities really trying.

I think I have the creativity for a website to pull this off but I do not have any technology to do so. I do not have time to learn. I have held my hand out to the universe saying I am doing the best I can with what you have given me. My mind is limited. Send help. Here I am at Avalon. A space for deep thinking. People who when the time is right and the thoughts are right have the ability to find some of the answers.

Thank you Steve for motivating me to write this now. Like you so much forum, so little me.

[doodah]

w4c and others here... Do you know anything about land trusts? I mentioned a successful survival community in this area that was started by 3 families 37 years ago. The land is a land trust. They don't own it and it can't be inherited, but it is protected in certain ways. I don't know if they pay land taxes or not; they do not run a business of any kind to support their community. A few of them go "into town" to earn money for their own personal interests only.

Also, the land a mile from me is under threat of having an "intermodal port" built upon it by the railroad. We have been fighting this battle for four years now, trying to keep 65 acres of pristine farmland from being turned into a railroad yard where cargo containers from the coast will be "dumped" and then picked up by up to 30,000 trailer trucks a year. YIKES. The point is, several landowners nearby almost immediately put their land into land trusts to protect it. Can this concept work for us?

[write4change]

Doodah,

I don't know anything about land trusts, someone could research that. I do know about living trusts. Where I lived in Texas in 95 was less than five miles from Hagee's mega church. The homes around me were 2 to 350,000 a lot for San Antonio then. Many of those homes were put into living trusts as non profits serving a ministry. Most of the ministries were prison ministries and there was no follow up to see what or how these people served in any way in these prisons. Taxes are a matter of public record so I looked it up because our jumped 30% in one year based on some kind of anonymous report. That was the beginning of my decision to move out of there.

I have essentially spent from 5PM to 3AM doing Giovanni's thread on Gillilard who I never heard of until today. It was an E ride of up and down and all around. When I got to post 95 by Bashi--I wound up breaking down into a flood of tears and I don't cry easily. That has given me a second charge. On a whole nothing is happening here. I am going to take a bath and come back and write my Cat People epiphany.

Peace

[9eagle9]

There's different kinds of land trusts dependent on need and function. But that is definitely an option would be a way of protecting the land placing it in a third party perpetuity. It's very nearly like putting a passive lien on property. There's patent trusts where the land may under development attached to a patent. Non profit corporations use land trusts quite a lot. Some land trusts allow the property to be held privately and then an easement is put on it. Mostly they are composed around the having the title held privately and a beneficiary is listed in land trusting private property. The NPCs that I am aware of that have formed land trusts did it on their own , most likely filing fees involved wouldn't be much more than the usual title transfer types. . You may with to form a Non Profit Corp right away to get started. Most Federal and National Parks and maybe even state parks are formed from land trusts. ON the downside many land trust have been the subjects of long going and on going court cases with the intent to keep the whole 'rights to property' in a stall-out especially when land trust puts the issue of land ownership in a gray area. The gov has a bread down if they cannot immediately find out who owns something in case someone has something the gov can't easily tax ;)

[write4change]

My epiphany: We are all doing the right thing in the right way for the right reason here. Underlying all the threads is the issue of power. The first recognition is that the exercise of power as we have known it is wrong. Therefore, right now any form of power is viewed with deep suspicion and rightly so. The dream of no power wants to replace any power. The deal is balanced power which begins with the balancing of the yin and yang.

The men of my generation were the last to be raised with the concept of male superiority on a prima facis basis. To them equality was always a demotion from superiority. Third world countries have had by far more women leaders because most of their god concepts express the duality of and incarnation of the male facing the female. The Western world has always made woman the downfall and blame of all man's suffering.

Men see strength in "into the valley of death charged the 300" bonded together to die a swift and noble death. Women's strength is the ability to endure. Women risk their life giving life. Until 1950, the average woman lived to 48 and half died from some form of child birth complication sooner or later. It was not known until 1972 that men determined the sex of the child--in the 60s the Shah of Iran was forced to put away his most beloved wife because she had not produced a male heir. There has been a lot of blood shed thru the centuries over this. I have seen many changes that are very subtle as this knowledge has been transmitted the world over. In the US almost no women elected politicians until after this.

There is no recorded instance that I know of a woman who comes to power giving it up for a man. There have been several men from Julius Caesar to King Edward who are perceived as having destroyed themselves over a woman. Historically, woman rulers/leaders have been equal to men or more so in their ferocity to rule. I just watched a movie about Margaret Thatcher being the leading force in blocking Pinochet from going to trial. She did a recorded interview in which she greeted him as one of the great heroes of the Fauklens War.

In Indian legends it is the woman who is the earth destroyer -- gloated by pain to the earth by men she takes up the sword and wearing massive heads hanging all over her--she destroys everything in her path--until Shiva arrives and places his throat under her foot. It is only in her love for him that she finds enough compassion to stop.

Gillilard, as does Wilcox, Hancock, and Messing, talk about the earth being both pressured and energized by the Divine Feminine now. Gillilard is very specific about not coming to vibrate with the feminine wave and thus, choosing to be top soil for the next generation. He says we have to get out of the masculine mind into the infinity of feminine heart. He says you frame events according to your preferences, reference points, and belief systems. "The mind in which you seek is the mind to which you connect." We magnetize people and events to us according to our consciousness.

The Catholic Church even had a debate in the mid 1800s concerning whether or not a woman was human. There was a case built that a woman was a defective man. In my first marriage of 1965, I promised to obey. I cannot tell you how many conflicts we had over that. I was single for over ten years between my first and second marriage and my solution at that time was to become the man I wanted to marry. I thought I had to support my masculine in order to survive and it felt true.

My second marriage began with him being 58 and my being 36. I am just beginning my maturity and he is just beginning his regeneration. He is now strong enough to be amused, challenged, and entertained by my brain. I believe that the marriage was destined to our commitment before incarnation to try and balance the yin and yang. At that time we did not have a conscious knowing of this. I have spent years looking back at various relationships not just mine but people I knew intimately. Kirkengaard says life is lived forward but only understood by looking back. That is why there is a soul review--the sooner you do it the more conscious you become. We were adults and sovereign souls. We had a mind meld. We did not balance but we carved out spheres of influence. In many ways, Jerome taught me to be ready for this next incarnation which we both knew I would always have.

In Wade Frazier's thread I told of my first NDE experience. At two years old my father picked me up by my braids and threw he across the room to hit a break wall and crack my head open. All his life my father believed that I ruined his life by his first born being a girl. He was one of five brothers and his family has not had a girl born in 5 generations. I was the second child born to his generation. 13 months later my brother was born a cripple. My father beat my mother a lot and she considered herself enslaved to her love for him.

The universe rescued me by sending me to my grandparents who had a soulmate relationship. I never heard them say I love you and I don't think I ever saw them kiss. They were stoic New Englanders and that is how people were then. But I knew they loved each other because their eyes lit up when they looked at one another. My parents were locked in a battle for control always. I do not think my parents ever told me they loved me, for sure, I have no memory of it and I have looked. Now this may seem intensely dysfunctional but it was not that much worse from what every one I went to school with was experiencing for 12 or so years.

One winter day when I am four, my parents arrive and I am thrown out in my snow suit to get some "roses in my cheeks" according to my grandmother. I know they are going to argue about my going back. I don't think children that young think about committing suicide; it is more like I am going to go eat some worms because they told me not to. So I walk about a half mile down to the pond which I have been told dozens of times never to go alone. I walk right out to the middle where the ice is thin and promptly fall thru. There was the immediate sense of ice cold which kind of snapped me awake and then a warmth and enfolding light. Because of my boots and heavy snowsuit, I sink right down to the bottom standing straight up. And I hear this silver lady in my head who tells me to be quiet and to be still and not to open my mouth. She tells me to grab hold of the pussy willows rooted in the bottom of the pond and follow the light to the end of the pond and use the pussy willows to climb out and I did. I get out and start walking home and she says now you are awake and aware and your job is to remember. Most of my life since then I have had the ability to feel like a TV camera in the air--up and away and observing. My parents are gone and my grandmother is appalled gives me a hot bath which really hurts and quietly rants.

By the spring I am feeling really good. I have a special grove I go to. I discover I can call the rabbits, the deer, the skunks, the squirrels, and the raccoons to play with me. And I begin to think I am special and I have this power and I can control. There is a roving pack of wild dogs and there are dozens of cats around the barn with secret nests for their kittens. The dogs are always preying on the cats. So I gather up all these dogs and put them in a circle and I get a helpless baby kitten who cannot see yet. I do around the circle with the kitten in my hand and slap each dog on the nose and say no kitten no touch the cats. Once was good. Twice was better. I decide to do it one more time just to make sure of my power. The kitten is snatched from my hand and ripped in two in front of eyes. The dogs then grab the other kittens and cats I have exposed and run off. It was a complete lesson on the limits of power and the consequences of its abuse. I have rejected power all my life.

In June of 2008, at the end of Oprah's 12 week study of Eckhart Tolle A New Earth whose thesis was Evolve or Die, she had on Dr. Brian Weiss of Many Lives, Many Masters. I met him in the mid 80s in Santa Monica. He put a computer program on her web site for past life regression with his voice. The first time I tried it, I got nothing. The second time I tried it, I got nothing. The third time was whoo hooo you are there. And I experienced an entire life on Ceylon in 1870. I was half Portuguese and half Tamil. Secret daughter of a wayward priest and a hereditary dakini.
At the time this happened, I did not even know Ceylon was Sri Lanka. I have been on a web linked search of spirituality since then. I have written over 2000 pages about it so far. I have not written a word since joining this site. I made a vow in that life to come back as a woman in a time when I could be highly educated.

While everyone is talking about the Divine Feminine, we know less about her than we do the Divine Masculine. We have almost no role model of what feminine leadership would look like. All stories of women as great heroines are either in the unknown future, fantasy, an ancient unknowable past, or Joan of Arc and that ended well. Could Harry Potter be a girl and remain universal appeal? I rest my case.

All these men talking so authoritively about the Divine Feminine. Graham Hancock snidely talks about all these people who have done research on the primitive man growing psychically and psychologically by using magic mushrooms and other hallucinogens; while still refusing to both experience and scientifically study their effects. Thus, after years of researching lost civilizations, he is now studying the feminine in hallucinogenic experience. And I salute him for it. But the first woman who played golden giraffe by sticking her neck out there willing to get it chopped off--Shirley McClain--still could not draw the audiences and credibility given to David Wilcox.

Up to now, I felt my life's work was to make novels out of lots of stuff I have encountered and hope for the ring of authentic feeling. My ego on it has asked that it counter balance Atlas Shrugged which has done so much damage to the world by a masculine woman.

90 days ago almost to the minute Giovanni put up his thread and I joined. I feel like I have been slogging away her for months only to realize I have been here two weeks. I feel like I can see time spiraling..... I am not even sure how I got here. I did not know about Avalon. I did not know about the split. I have followed the interviews for the last year and half when I would get linked to them. The minute I saw the Anglo Saxon Mission I joined. Wade Frazier's thread grounded me and opened me to trust.

It is a pretty big deal still for an unknown woman to step up to such a site somewhat authoritively. At the same time, you see me most of all displaying my failures and changing my mind as an ongoing process. When I watch all these men speak so confidently and with such certainty that they know the Divine Feminine I am like HOW? I have deeply loved a man and it has resonated thru my life for over 40 years. I have gotten out of my body loving him. It is the act of loving life to surrender to pregnancy and childbirth that opened doors to my understanding what a woman is. It is the sharing of my body that would allow a man to grok me if he chooses to be as deep in my mind as in my body.

The few men that get to me what the Divine Feminine is Gray and his Chapel of the Soul and Yanni whose music has the Mozart Effect. So intense it changes the way the mind thinks for 15 minutes. Yanni in particular is trashed as elevator muszac.

Graham Hancock talks about some of the shamans who have a spiritual wife they are intensely moved by but remain contemptuous of their earthly one. Such a paradox to me.

All of the men I have truly loved have remained an enigma to me. It is part of the pleasure and part of the promise. It is why they are never boring. The one I loved deeply was the only one who led me to understand it was not just him and me but the energy of god fused with us almost exactly like Gray depicts it. If a man is not totally known to me neither is the Divine Masculine.

If I were to speak of what I think I know for sure--it would make many men uncomfortable. I do not see them as even willing to listen to the emotion of my spirituality. Why do I think that? Because I do not hear that in their voice or feel that in their approach to me. They talk about coming with their heart but their talk comes often from their head. I do not doubt the powers of meditation and intention or all the many ways of seeking god.

I do not doubt that this is the time of the feminine because I feel invited here. I am the Cat Woman who is saying don't call me kitty, I want to hear some purring and I want to feel some caressing in the wind. You men have left me alone with my thoughts and my love so long that I have truly learned to walk alone. Balance the yin and the yang? We hardly come close enough to touch.

This is only half of the cat epiphany. I am exhausted.

[Arrowwind]

write4change,

Very interesting contemplations... and I see many parallels between us an our thinking but your experience is more energetic than mine. You seem quite out there and have experienced much... but the conclusions we arrive at are on almost point for point.

Shirely McClane - I have had connection with her through the eithers... so I smiled when you brought her up.

Past life regression... I have been there too and found a confirmation that so astounded me that it altered my whole perception of the world and my reality shifted. I now see my existence as a continuem that has no end.. and my purpose here is to perfect myself for service, and each life presents its challenges, as I learn to create it though my essence. And every now and then I get to drop my body and put on a new skin that allows me to keep the work moving forward.

My views on the masculine and the feminie are spot on to yours,, my deepest regret is that I have not found the quailty of mate with the connection you have... I suppose much of that is my fault. I have a wonderful husband who is dedicated and true but the depth of our connection is not what I had dreamed of, yet I am compelled to believe that we are soul mates in a sense.. he has allowed me freedom...
and I suspect that I still do not see the big picture on our relationship.

You say you know you are suppose to be here for the work you need to do.. I am already planning my next life which will be much more filled with public activity and position. I will be ready and this life is the preparation for finding my center for it and lifting myself out of the morass that society and culture presented. I suppose it sounds strange that one could plan their next life but I feel certain that it can be done and as time goes by my specifications are being clarified... I am certain that this can be done and I suggest that more people contemplate the possibiities. Our existence is a continuim. It is like planning to go to school at a future date, or for a job you seek, or planning your financial future. One should also be very careful to call in the quality of the family that they wish to have to support their endeavors.... as I am sure you are well aware of by now.

Even woman will put down women for being authorative. It is time we stop repressing one another. If we do not take our own authority and support one another in doing so we will forever be doomed. To much emphisis is placed on formal education as credientials.. surely we well know now the lies and manipulations that our Universites are plagued with. Their credientials mean less and less to me every day, especially when it comes to assessing the totality of our plight here on this planet. You cannot believe the historians, the physicians are brainwashed by the pharamceutical industry, the agricultural community is controlled by monsanto and Dow and farmers have literally been turned into slaves, the banking and financial intutions are run by thieves and sociopaths, the oil industry is run by greed and disregard for the planet and all the whole shebang is backed by the scientists and intillectuals who are motivated by money and publication of their work, that is often paid for by controlling interests, personal prestige, and holding their own job down.

Truth sayers are the sacrifical lambs offered to the gods of deceit and control.

So what intellectuals do we believe? what science is true? what medicine heals? what educational system promotes learning? we must stop giving authority to the deceivers who have spun this nightmare and learn to follow our gut, open our heart and recognize truth when we hear it... for truth does ring if you have the ears to hear it.

The whole planet has been put down by the unethical and erronous rule of men... But women must beware for the very same or similar pitfalls await them... we are not near done with our work... but this crevace we are climbing out of, as women and men together brings hope. And the dysfunctionality of families is crucial to the issue.. I also came to understand that it was the dysfunctionality of families that surrounded me as a child that lead me into so many misperceptions of the world and about myself... I came to find out that there are many very sick people out there and they were surrounding me on all sides, inhibiting the spiritual and physical freedom of the other children my age, and hence me through association, as well as the plague that was going on within my own family structure. We need to recreate ourselves out of this and I have done much work on that level.. and when you do each generation is bound to get better... and even when I hear the dismal complaints of my children in their upbringing.. I can feel satisfied and know I did well, for they have the freedom that I did not have and I tell them when their time come to make it better tp go and do better than me. Do all that you can and let not my blindess be your blindness, as I did not allow the blindness of my parents to rule me either.

You asked me for commentary, so here it is. I hope it is helpful to you in some way as I was not certian of what you were seeking.

[giovonni]

from write4change...

"Giovanni,

You were one of my first friends before I understood what being a friend here would mean. I had decided two days ago that I would write one of my friends first thing in the morning because I found it so pleasant to be greeted by a friend with my first cup of tea. So you would have been it today on that alone.

How I read threads is how I was lead down a spiritual path of knowledge. I would go the Bodhi Tree and just walk around with my hand held out--when it got hot I would walk closer read the books and just know which one was next.

That is how the threads here started for me. I started with Wade Frazier who I really understood and felt safe with. Spent almost a week with him. Today I spent from 5PM to 3AM on your thread. It was an E ride.

I am asking that you post to my thread your video on post number 90 thread page 5. Until today I had never heard of Gillilard. I had an incredible epiphany with the Cat Lady. I am also going to ask Bashi to post her video from post number 95. I have no idea if that is done here or not.

I am only going to do one thread and I want everything I find most valuable there. However, I have already written that I spent 8 hours on your thread and found it that important. I have no idea what I could say more than that.

No matter your answer my deep appreciation for your thread.

Peace, Jai"

***********

Greetings my Friend...please note it will take me much longer to filter through all the love and wisdom so lovingly shared here!

i humbly submit too your desired wish...:hug: Gio


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lc6JyL1qEmQ&feature=player_embedded#

[giovonni]

you all here...are truly divine!

http://photos-e.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs132.snc3/17943_1237512935317_1154047962_30631241_2587154_n.jpg

[1159]

A thread with some intriguing deliberations and maybe even manifestation. I have recently been reviewing a film called 'A New We' by the Austrian documentary filmmaker Stefan Wolf and his Team. They traveled through Europe in order to explore well established intentional communities and to present a broad spectrum of lifestyle possibilities to many people. More to be seen on their website here http://www.newwe.info


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2YyNjAs-nHo

The full documentary is long, but immensely rewarding. It travels through the lives of many people who have set up or joined communities, sometimes based on nothing more than the primal need to reconnect with earth nature. What becomes apparent in all of the examples of these communities, is the level of self awareness and spiritual consciousness. It is also a probing evaluation of how people redefine meaning, purpose and value in life when they focus on nature, art and relationships.

Some are religious, some Utopian, some hedonistic, but I don't see the problems of Solipsism. In fact some of these inner communities play an important role in the larger social interface of education and business. A few communities are little more than an extended family in size and offer specialist skills to visitors and local inhabitants.

Without doubt some elysian concepts are being played out by the few that may inspire the many to recapture some of our greatest human values that have got lost along the way.

If you can get the film, it will be two hours well spent and maybe even leaving a little yearning towards doing something... At least it will be some ideas for further inspiration ...

[Whiskey_Mystic]

So much to read. Good reading, though. I will have to catch up with you guys later. Someone should start a Utopian Living Talk Show.

[9eagle9]

W4C...I've seen lots of posts popping up about communities and social interactions in general and more and more the conflict between men and women pop up. Then the princples of divine male and female are showing up those discussions. I'm thinking not really connecting and understanding those energies are big wedge in the dream of Utopian living. Glad you brought it up.

I reposted this from some comments I made in the KEY thread.

Female energy has contributed to dark woes inflicted on us, as well. It's not innocent. The dark side of the feminine exists. It’s always been present and influential just not on the side of the fence of the greater good. Feminine energies fed the opposing forces for a long time not out nurturing but for gain and agenda.

The true divine female principal got smothered…but so did the divine male principal. The first got smothered and the other got herded into the patriarchal route.

It’s never really been just a matter of bringing back the DIVINE female principle either. We have to bring back the divine male principle as well and it has not been easy... Its not anyone's fault and really I’m not attempting to be sexist here I acknowledge male and female have lost their way by that which was imposed on us. But I'm a woman and this is from my pov .

I mean for two thousand years men were told their wives were born of Satan. ..lol. Yet were inferior, stupid and incapable of nothing but leading men into sin. Okay this is an opposing belief, a confusing one. Women potentially have this great satanic omnipotent power lurking in them that men have to guard against, yet at the same time women are inferior , stupid, incapable. Very confusing. What do you trust after all that time.

There is a lot of that conditioning still lurking deep in the human psyche. A generation or two of enlightenment isn’t going to erase that. We don’t know clearly what divinely male and female is. None of us really do. We can’t remember we just have to work on being authentic. Our new age spirituality of what is divine male and female is skewed too . It lacks authenticity. New Age philosphy is often dehumanizing making our true nature seem inferior. And then replacing it with notions like "We're all reincarnated angels and unicorns" thats why we have problems getting along. A billion angels can dance on the head of a pin. I'd rather be an extraordinary human than an ordinary angel.

IF we find our personal authenticity I think we will find our true divine principals male and female and how to balance those energies. Again. How to complement each other instead of having another power struggle.

But during this time of patriarchal influence men forgot how to be masculine in the true divine male sense as well . Protective, provider, the warrior not for war but for his family and community. To defend these spiritual principals of what was truly authentically divinely male and female. The physical energy and strength. Quiet self authority, without being abusiveness. I know a few men like this and they can all climb into a sweatlodge with each other naked and not be afraid that they are being perceived as being 'less than men'. Or assume the warrior position in the back of the mixed lodge because that is their ROLE. They are comfortable assuming it. Women are comfortable allowing them to assume it.

Divine female energies were the intuitive source, the nurturer, the guidance, the emotional energy, emotional strength without being shrill or hysterical. The glue to hold two it together. Not passivity or helplessness. There was an interdependency there. It complemented each other instead of creating a power struggle. A synergy of the two that was disrupted and replaced with conditioning.

In the present when we realized we had lost touch with not only the divine female but the divine male, instead of stepping into divine male, Men were encouraged to delve into their divine female side….without fully experiencing or living in the divine male principal.


So we ended up with a lot of helpless confused men. They were no longer patriarchal but there weren’t masculine either. Not in the divine energetic sense anyway. This results in women who has to shoulder both, assuming to assume masculine traits just to survive because she doesn’t have the complementary energy.So they were no longer patriachally imposed on but not divinely female either. Then men resent those sorts of women, and women begin resenting those sorts of men and ..viscous circle. Power struggle.

Both divines have to embraced by everyone to make this balance complement again. I see this rampant in spiritual communities, men entirely skipping over their divine male birthright and leaping into the divine female. Not to respect or nurture or use a bit of it for balancing, it but to ASSUME it. They have no true masculine qualities. I’m not talking about gay or homosexuality here either. Yes men can and should be sensitive but who wants to listen to the provider=protector=warrior weep helplessly all day about the beauty of the butterflies when the roof is collapsing. I’m sorry if someone finds this offensive , but its my observance and just my opinion …but I’m pretty sure if we are to have honesty among us someone else has noticed it too. In both energies.

Women have done the same thing. I include myself in these numbers. Many men I have encountered in my life are not masculine in the truest sense. Either they are abusively macho or needily co dependent. The first group loathes me, the second group thinks I’m their mommy which imposes this sort of incestuous energy on our associations: "I am striving to be in the divine female energy and you want to make me your mother and take care of everything for you." Do I have too much masculine energy? Probably and maybe some men are seeing in me what they lack in themselves and are attracted by it in some fashion. I have something they want. Or rather that belongs to them.

Or women have become so pathologically helpless and indecisive they put a lot of the burden on their male counterpart. All imbalance.

Men who have that true masculinity don’t know what to do with me. They can’t protect me, I can’t be soft or vulnerable around them which is part of the divine female. I rob them of their role and I can’t help it. I’m conditioned by always having to assume both roles. What I’m saying without saying it is " I don’t need you. "I don’t mean it but that’s the energy I’m putting off. I didn't even realize it.

But we do. We need each other we just can’t find our way around this 2 thousand year old white elephant that sits in the living room of our energetic houses.

Okay so I’m writing this from a woman’s point of view. If any men need to step up and mourn the loss of the true woman, please feel free. I’ll be the last to be offended.

A few years ago I found myself in sub zero weather changing a tire on my truck. I look up to find this man who lived next door watching me this entire time while struggling with a tire that weighed as much as me. Just stood there and watched me. When I was done and tightened up my lug nuts , I wanted to stand up and slap him while I'm going through this huge struggle in the frigid weather, and he just stands there with is thumb up his ...you know what. I am quite capable of changing a tire (have to be cause the divine male energy is currently off writing angst raddled poetry about the sunrise) . Being female doesn't excuse us from being capable. This man says to me, "I’d have helped you but I know how independent you are and I know you’d find it offensive..”

Since when is it offensive to help a woman? Since the 60s and 70s when divine female turned into militant feminism. Which I think is another word for female patriarchal. That right there was a dark side of female energy. Women began turning into the very thing they had imposed on them for thousands of years. Stealing the balance, the complement. When men got too intimidated to offer the protective provider warrior role because a woman would sue him if he did for gender slander, well where could men retreat to? Sorry ladies, we created that by flinging our heads in the air when a man opened the door for us. Not entirely our fault, because men were taught to get out of the patriarchal role, and to defer to the female energy at all time and let it be powerful and express itself again. Because you were a mach *rick if you didn't. As if the divine female is all powerful and cure all for everything. It’s not, we need both in balance.

I really wanted to slap the tar out of him then, but I realized…. he just doesn’t know. He doesn’t understand. None of us do. Not enough to live in that complementary energy again.

Not long after I’m buying a part for a motor. The man behind the counter actually sold me the part at below cost because …well I think he felt sorry for me a woman making her own auto repairs. Being protective. I certainly didnt take it to be condescending. I was grateful. A male customer behind me got all bent out of shape and said, "How come that b**ch gets parts below cost when real working men have to pay retail?"

This is true there was an inequality there but...was there really? Is there really? You tell me.

So the slap hand wants to come up again (sorry that’s the result of having to assume the male energy..lol) But again that was threatening to him. We’re all threatened by each other. I had to stop and retreat to that understanding place…eventually. When I got over my offense. He was intimidated and threatened. We are in unknown territory and no I don’t have any answers. Try to retreat to authenticity as much as possible and shed the false roles imposed on us by our previous and current circumstances. Best I can offer.

[Arrowwind]

Both divines have to embraced by everyone to make this balance complement again. I see this rampant in spiritual communities, men entirely skipping over their divine male birthright and leaping into the divine female. Not to respect or nurture or use a bit of it for balancing, it but to ASSUME it. They have no true masculine qualities. I’m not talking about gay or homosexuality here either. Yes men can and should be sensitive but who wants to listen to the provider=protector=warrior weep helplessly all day about the beauty of the butterflies when the roof is collapsing. I’m sorry if someone finds this offensive , but its my observance and just my opinion …but I’m pretty sure if we are to have honesty among us someone else has noticed it too. In both energies.



:pound:


Man have I ever been though that one....
it is why I left hippy culture when I wanted to get serious about finding a mate!

[modwiz]

Both divines have to embraced by everyone to make this balance complement again. I see this rampant in spiritual communities, men entirely skipping over their divine male birthright and leaping into the divine female. Not to respect or nurture or use a bit of it for balancing, it but to ASSUME it. They have no true masculine qualities. I’m not talking about gay or homosexuality here either. Yes men can and should be sensitive but who wants to listen to the provider=protector=warrior weep helplessly all day about the beauty of the butterflies when the roof is collapsing. I’m sorry if someone finds this offensive , but its my observance and just my opinion …but I’m pretty sure if we are to have honesty among us someone else has noticed it too. In both energies.



:pound:


Man have I ever been though that one....
it is why I left hippy culture when I wanted to get serious about finding a mate!




I'm not good at roofs but I will make enough at my profession to pay my part of it.

I love splitting wood though.

It is good to be involved with "natural talents" as well. Most men are naturally more robust than women and that is part and parcel of maleness.

I get what you ladies are saying and agree with it. I am incapable of macho though. So corny.

[Arrowwind]

Both divines have to embraced by everyone to make this balance complement again. I see this rampant in spiritual communities, men entirely skipping over their divine male birthright and leaping into the divine female. Not to respect or nurture or use a bit of it for balancing, it but to ASSUME it. They have no true masculine qualities. I’m not talking about gay or homosexuality here either. Yes men can and should be sensitive but who wants to listen to the provider=protector=warrior weep helplessly all day about the beauty of the butterflies when the roof is collapsing. I’m sorry if someone finds this offensive , but its my observance and just my opinion …but I’m pretty sure if we are to have honesty among us someone else has noticed it too. In both energies.



:pound:


Man have I ever been though that one....
it is why I left hippy culture when I wanted to get serious about finding a mate!




I'm not good at roofs but I will make enough at my profession to pay my part of it.

I love splitting wood though.

It is good to be involved with "natural talents" as well. Most men are naturally more robust than women and that is part and parcel of maleness.

I get what you ladies are saying and agree with it. I am incapable of macho though. So corny.

It seems that when my husband and I got together the traditional roles suited us so well... and with no arguement from me as I had tried the robust woman venture and failed largely. If I had to change a tire I would probaly die trying as my physical nature does not allow for much than men do nor the more robust women. We are on a return to the land venture now and while there is much I do outside my terrain is really inside... doing those things which he is not inclined and he doing those things which I phsycially cannot cope with. It is a natural balance for us... and while my husband was still employed he did pay for more than his share as he provide for children, education and most of our needs.. Although I worked too, the core of what we enjoy now was from his warrior work in the corporate world of architecture. Together through our cooperation, we get to retire and explore other interests... as so many others will not be able to do.

Macho does not exist in our personal reality... well, I guess if anyone I am the more agressive of the two.. I just dont take BS from anyone and tactfulness has had to be learned.


Previously my husband did not repair roofs, but now he is nearing completion of construction of his first house that he has done a wonderful work...he also drives a tractor, installs water system, and on and on, so you never known modwiz what the future will bring you.

I always had an interest in "utopian community" having lived in a few cooperative living situations in the pas, that werer ultimately pathetically organized. . I still long for it though...and as we build our personal sanctuary here I do secretly envision it filled with like minded people, if I can find a way to bring my husband around.. he can be a bit territorial... but I know in his heart he is a repressed hippy too.

[9eagle9]

Lol. I've been banned from all major networks...radio and television for talking about the stuff we're talking about here. Utopia Underground here we come.


But ...Oprah is creating her own net work and she is going to have some pretty cutting edge spiritual speakers on there. Not public info...yet but I've seen a few of her line ups. Cable network of course not the sheeple media, but that on its own is encouraging.

[9eagle9]

I made a prediction in late 09 that 2010 would be the year of the beginning of the awakening of the DMP (Divine Male Principle) . I based this on the series of bizarre circumstances I experienced in the years preceding that.

Excorcism isn't something I'm called on to do very often, maybe two or three times a year .

Anyway between the Spring Equinox of 06 and the Fall Equinox of 09, my calls for negative energy extraction skyrocketed to two or three a week. Even little kids. SOMETHING was going on and it took me just a little while to notice it that it was all men I was getting called on to attend, and a few masculine lesbian females. This was so important somehow that the Universe had actually managed to maneuver me into a situation where I was living with someone who was full blown out possessed--external attachment. On a scale of 1 to 10 that was a 9. Just so I would get a close up and hands on personal view what was going on here. Assuming i lived through it ..lol. I was actually told, Okay this isn't about y gun slinging, pay attention to what is really happening here. Its not what your doing that's important its what is [occuring.

What was happening was an epidemic and it was visible to the bare eye the crap coming off these men. One of the first I did was a rather spiritual man who was suddenly overnight suicidal and depressed. I wax his crap and what ever it was I pulled off turned into a piece of chocolate in my hand. With a bite taken out of it. Okay so this is a little voodoo black magick interference. Who casts a spell (for lack of a better word) with chocolate?

A woman. ..Lol. My first clue. This wasn't about his ex wife who probably just facilitated the whole issue with a little dark energy but something a bit larger.

So for almost three years its just a carnival of extraction and all of it is this dark female energy or attachment coming off.

During that time I did five interventions with male medicine men who had suddenly flipped their lid and started behaving very abusively with their female clients. Most of whom were being treated for sexual abuse themselves, and didn't think it was the least bit strange that a medicine person was abusing them in that fashion .

The last was a woman who was very masculine lesbian. She had some sort of wild hateful inner child that was clearly male and out of control. Pulling that out was chore, like rubber band, she wanted to hold on to it. (I suspect she is no longer a lesbian either after that event...I always had a feeling she never was really. It was just a safe place to hide.) She was holding on to something that wasn't hers. Putting it back in was even harder, then she didn't want it after it was cleaned it up. That's not something were supposed to do is impose things like that on people when they dont' want, but I was clearly told. This has to be done. Everyone is out of their energy. Out of the mind. Out of their element.

What this all meant was the freeing of the divine male. However this weirdness occurred. Anyway SOMETHING was freeing itself. Of what? They were all possessed by some dark DMF? Or perhaps they were holding their portion of it the wrong way or maybe abusing it? Or had stayed in the DMF till it turned on them the way the mama wolf will turn on her pups to teach them how to behave. So it became more of positive event. And then suddenly boom, Fall of 09 it just stopped. Completely. Nothing. Haven't' done one since. Haven't heard a whisper of it.

Like the balance got tipped, went into chaos and is balancing out again, and flowing back to where it belongs.

[doodah]

9eagle, I really enjoyed your post there. Do you define yourself as a shaman?

I've got to say that I'm sitting here reading all this and pretending I'm actually in a community with all of you. When the overly intellectuallized talk begins, I see myself heading outside. I laugh as I say this. I was raised to be an overly intellectualized female; I wanted to be a college professor. But at some point, I let it all go in an effort to discover who I am, which is not my mind and what it's stuffed with. So I would hope that in a community, when I get up and leave the room that no one would take offense and maybe someone would join me outside?

[write4change]

Doodah, I hear what you say. And I know how that feels. Let us just say there are days you are in the mood and days that you are not. I would not be offended if you left. It is said that families that truly feel connected don't spend a lot of time talking about it because they grew up knowing where they were with it all within the family. Interesting I raised my children and my animals with sign language. Not conversation but some things outsiders never really saw and it was simply more effective and expressive.

[doodah]

Right... I'm still sitting here laughing to myself at the thought that when it comes to overly intellectualized conversation, "I don't do that anymore." It's such a weird thought, that that way of thinking is something you could give up, like you can give up many kinds of habits. But a search for balance meant I had to give it up. It didn't mean that I became unsmart but I carry a different energy signature now that is often misread or not read at all!

[doodah]

gotta go! catch up with all this tomorrow! Have a good evening, all, wherever you are.

[write4change]

Last time I began with questioning how we could come into balance when it is only men publicly claiming to understand the divine feminine while often speaking in a masculine language and setting. And yes, I know the minute you start wracking on a man he heads off to his cave and bars it with a rock.

Since I have now developed the ability to meditate down into past life regression by myself---I have not found one life that I lived as a man where I was a decent man. I was often a pretty good woman but always a terrible man. I could tell some stories about it like in the 13th century as a major cleric of the catholic church I walled up my pregnant lover alive. What is important is I felt what it feels like to be a man and be driven by that testosterone and often how good it feels. Because you have that power the temptation is far more intense. And I think it is by far harder to be a modern man than woman. A man must work to empathize with strength and discernment. Studies show that when men listen 4 places in the brain light up on MRIs but when women listen 8 places light up.

There is a masculine and a feminine way of thinking. One is not more right than the other---they are different. We want to think in terms of polarities. Male and Female The opposite of white is black. But in the real world there are shades of black---- blackberries, blackbirds, coal, and human hair. It is Aristotelian logic taught down thru the ages says that if something is this way; it cannot be that way. But that is not how the world is. Every living thing is always changing. We now know the planet axis and magnetic field is constantly changing. We are wobbling a little. This process we are going thru to balance the yin and yang come about when we think different. Every issue has to be considered on its merit not in terms of what its opposition is. Communism is not all bad and capitalism is not all good. Same for free markets. Same for free sex.

Globalization in the beginning sounded like a good idea to me. It did not mean to me what it does to the PTB. I thought it would mean free access to the peoples of the world to one another. Open discussion and exchange of ideas and culture. And expansion and enrichment of community. The West actually lack the complex imagery of the Chinese. It is the Chinese who have the yin and yang represented thru out their culture. They may suppress it but they acknowledge it. The West sells sex but denies the spirit of femininity.

A survey taken on the internet asked would you rather have your spouse as intelligent as you, less intelligent than you or more intelligent than you. 70% of the men said they wanted a spouse less intelligent than they but 90% of the women said they wanted a spouse more intelligent than they. Equality wasn't in the running. It is a reflection of the West's way of thinking that everything is now seen as polarity. Winner or looser. I grew up with sports being a game and how you played mattered. I no longer watch sports anything because winning is all that matters which makes it no longer relevant to how I live. Once I knew all the rankings of the college teams now I don't who they are. The work polarity is a mechanical word not one for expressing human relations.

I have always loved older men. 58 marks the age of regeneration for men. It is said on a whole that it is the time men turn from ambition and turn to reflection. Some successfully seek and find a whole new way of living but the majority keep to the rat wheel. My husband stopped going on cruises because all the lawyers who finally get talked into taking a long cruise so shock their systems that at least one dies on every cruise from a massive heart attack.

Generalizations from my past lives that I have experienced is that the simplest is usually the happiest. 1820 the Ozarks, a time when we knew enough to be almost totally self sufficient. Lots of work but it was satisfying. It was not demanding nor high paced but steady like the easy flow of a slow stream. It was much more spontaneous and more playful. City life is always harder to me than rural no matter the gender or the time. Loneliness is experienced in the cities but not in nature.

In doing this, I have learned for sure I want to survive and I will work on that. I have thought of many different ways of manifesting means of doing it. If I am to be part of a group, I want them to know me. We would be jumping into lots of unknowns, not knowing each other first would be a disaster. How can you have the back or be sure of your back with a stranger?

I love being a Crone. It is so totally freeing. I also recognize that being alone makes it much easier for me to be who I am, when I had family I often related to presenting things not to upset their apple cart or embarrass my kids.

Interesting the great China experiment of one kid resulted in a huge over population of men which they expected going in---the buy off was that it would automatically make women more valuable and that turned out to be true. But the unintended consequence was that China has relied for thousands of years on the family taking care of the old. Sons were seen as the producers and therefore more valuable for their parents being cared for. These lone prince sons are not taking care of their parents. China is considering passing a law to make it mandatory to do so. Turns out it was the women who made sure their husbands fulfilled their obligations. Left alone daughters will care for their parents but sons not so much.

This site like most sites I have been on trying to deal with difficult embedded societal problems is used to short pithy answers. There are no short cuts. Power point presentations are inadequate and almost like liars loans. What I am asking eventually is tuff. It is the only way I know, but I am open to some one who can show a different way.

Gillilard suggested that if you are into believing that you can consciousness raise yourself out of a crisis that you first go practice on a rock or a wave. How long does it take you to stop one or lift one? Then ask yourself are you prepared for tsunami?

[Arrowwind]

So in this community that is being dreamed is there ceremony?
and what kind and to what purpose?

To me ceremony is the greatest healer
rectifier, sanctifier, unifier,
solidifier, motivator, transformer
and pathway to community redemption

I do not like being without it.
I insist upon it
thrive upon it.

What ceremony do you do
and what do you see, if any
for a community?

[modwiz]

So in this community that is being dreamed is there ceremony?
and what kind and to what purpose?

To me ceremony is the greatest healer
rectifier, sanctifier, unifier,
solidifier, motivator, transformer
and pathway to community redemption

I do not like being without it.
I insist upon it
thrive upon it.

What ceremony do you do
and what do you see, if any
for a community?


It is rewarding for many reasons to cultivate a good relationship the the elementals and devas of the land etc. Unite with them by uniting with the group, So very true and important for more reasons than this bed bound body will type at this time.

It is a good thought as I head off to those realms.

Thank you

[write4change]

Arrowwind,

You have just stepped up to the plate. I agree with everything you say. I have a one hundred year crystal ball with a ball inside the ball. A really one of kind piece. I have some two foot talll additive sculpture goddesses from the interior of China that have over 12 different kinds of glazes. I have been told they stopped making them. I carried one in my arms all the way across China. One is riding a deer with all the fruits of the forest in her hands and one is playing a flute and she has wings. One of the few things I have left from the past. I also have a substantial collection of Buddhas from around the world but they are common with no high artistic value. I have a substantial collection of spiritual books.

Except for the crystal ball I am willing to sell them in order to do this or save them if the community wants such things. I can get confused on stuff like this. For me nothing is written in stone.

I do not have time to do this only the time to respond to your grace.

This is my Plan:

I hope by the 10th to have said everything I have to say here.

I have the following things left to do:

Explain a plan for the reclamation of mountain tops and quarrys and identifying them.
Explain a plan for making a possible ark and the plan for reclaiming an inner city abandoned mall or factory center etc.
An Analysis of Bill Ryan and Avalon
Explain the plan for an off shoot site, books, and how it all works with Avalon
The Story of a Death
Cat Woman's and the Universe's Challenge to the Avalon Project

After the 10th I have to leave because I have to write something else to come to completion. At least to the 22nd.

When I am done I will come back and see where we are at because while I am gone the rest of you should have done a lot of talking among yourselves.

I will then start a thread of Sacred Sexuality

By April the 11--my birth day if nothing is jelling I will be gone to do whatever it takes for me to get out of here.

If things are gelling, we start doing and making things. I leave LA by the end of September. A year and not quite 3 months from D day.

A plan without specifics, without time, without now, midrange, and long range goals is not a plan but a dream. Doing is loving. Loving doing is high vibrations. All of us benefit.

We are both nurses I felt you at once when I ran into your post. I trust you to enjoy doing this. The only thing I have thought of is building a 30 foot in diameter yurt as the sacred space. What or how goes into it -- decided by the community.

I have thought of the form of community to consider itself a Guild. A place of learning and passing skills to be the Guardians of Gaia. The Gaia Guild. I have not had time to develop thoroughly my initial thoughts. Let others take it up. Nothing in it. Every sacred symbol ever. Something illustrating the new connected consciousness of the web of Gaia.

Rolling around people's minds should be a mission statement, by laws, children no children, half over 36 and half under 36?,

So start a thread on creating ritual. Nothing that even smacks of religion but feeling sacred space. Creating a knowledge of discerning the sacred from the profane. Something daily with the sun, nightly with the moon, a monthly lunar celebration, the four season equinox and soltice. Our own beginning and ending new year.

Discussions about dumping totally Christmas etc. or keeping Santa Claus and spirit of giving and the Easter Bunny for the fun of sex. LOL

I am so glad we met so soon and so long ago. Love, Jai

[Constance]

Write4change has requested that I post this website for your perusal and possible delight. I have not had a chance to dig in but as a meal it looks extremely palatable.

http://calearth.org/

Enjoy

Hi there everyone!

I visited a community setting named Moora Moora only today! What a co-incidence ;) Thanks for starting this thread!!!

I am new to this post. I did this course at Cal-earth. It is faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaantastic!

It only took 5 of us to build a 3 metre dome that is rock-solid over 2 days. We did this on the Rye pensinsula in Vic, Australia - at the hot springs resort. Charles, the owner, was planning on using it for a hot springs tub!!! The two people who guided us through this, Neil Decker and Stella Michaels were the most beautiful people you could ever imagine. I would choose them again to mentor others in a heartbeat.
To build your own Cal-earth home, it would probably cost you around $1500.00 AUD. And you would get all the benefits of the dome and a home that can go up in one day.
I have been interested in community living for a very long time now. At first it was because I wanted to live sustainably but then when I went down the rabbit hole a few years back, it was then for fear that something was going to happen to the world. Where I stand now, I want to live in a community because I feel that this is the only way through, starting over again.
The ideal community for me would be one based upon the "common passions" whereby we all live together, communicating in the "common passions". I have this friend who has discovered that there are 27 common passions that unite and bond all of us in all of our diversity.
And in this community, my ideal community - it would be a raw food lifestyle that we look to, where all beings are sacred.
The wild animals would be our pets, free to come and go as they please. Our homes, domes...The healthiest and most heart energising spaces to be loved and lived in...(see Dan winters work on sacred architecture... in order to live a healthy life the home needs to be in a dome-shape) and affordable.
Time for bed...more later...
lots of love and light,
Constance

[write4change]

Constance,

It is great to meet someone who actually built one. I have slept in one. I have been doing a lot of research on what is called dirt cheap housing.

It never gets a lot of enthusiasm. I think everyone I know wants things to stay as they are comfort wise. Earth houses really don't lend them selves to stuff. I find them charming and highly adaptable more than the pictures indicate.

I think you are right about people have to want to do this for the desire of living this way for it to work but I feel like I would like a chance to survive a geophysical event. If I thought consciousness was enough I would ride it through. This issue seems to be a real dividing line.

I would like a community trying to come together, first, as strangers to be simple vegetarian and as inclusive as possible. The opportunity to only eat raw should be available but to make everyone choose the same kind of eating does not seem workable in the time frame we are looking at.

I did not feel familiar with Common Passions but when I went on their site I remember signing some sort of peace pledge with them years ago that had gone viral on the web.

I thought it was a good spiritual place to start. Common Passions:

We are a global social collaboration of individuals and communities who share compassion as a common passion. We orchestrate global meditations and prayer events with all faith and wisdom traditions.

Our mission is to create social and environmental harmony through science based and faith based application of collective consciousness. We welcome people and organizations from all walks of life to help us realize our common vision.

That is their mission statement for the record. We have not even attempted that yet.

I hope you will come back and share your input.

[write4change]

Arrowwind,

I need to apologize for not allowing you the space to choose for yourself. I have wanted to see other people respond so much that I tried to push you instead of call you. My deep regret. I do this publicly because I became aware of what I have done.

Namaste, Jai

[Ernie Nemeth]

I don't know how to go from here to there, so to speak. How we can change our mindsets to allow for some sort of co-operative venture to succeed. Especially if it is only a small group basically supported by the modern world as it is today. But I feel that small groups are doomed to fail because of the false beliefs most of the world holds as inviolate.
I still believe that for any such model to have any chance it must have a document which all agree to uphold. It must clearly outline the beliefs and the rights of its constituents.

I have started a thread on that very idea that I simply titled, World Peace.
Maybe it can start a dialogue on the fundamentals of such a mode of living.

Peace

[9eagle9]

Arrowind, I wouldn't' want a community without ceremony either. An ideal community for me would be centered around the medicine wheel and sweat lodge. A community medicine lodge. And regular community ceremonies and meetings. And I have daily and weekly ceremonies. Drumming circles. Its fun to have people make their own drum and then bring them officially 'into service' with a drum ceremony followed by drumming and a feast.

People can be intimidated with ceremony. The last public one I did some wine was passed around. I always keep dragonsblood on hand for those who can't or don't want a sip of wine because of the alcohol. Everything was fine till the dragonsblood came out (for them to dab on their brow) all hell broke loose and and several people ran for their lives...lol. I have found that taking the time to explain to people what is being done and why so its not so mysterious (or Satanic...lol) to them takes the fear out of it. I then realized that people came to watch not participate, and the next public one I do, people will have to understand its not to watch but participate in. We aren't doing this to entertain you, we aren't entertainers.

If people aren't intimidated in that fashion, they are intimidated by what seems to be complexity of ceremony .But they can be made personal, at least many of them should because it often is personal and can be tailored to one's needs. A lot of ceremony can be very serious seeming. But during any given door of a ladies sweat we start howling with laughter and the fire keeper says it sounds like a mans locker room. I tend to think they should be more about joy than seriousness. And learning to laugh at what happens when you flub a ceremony and watch the repercussions of it keep going on and on after the ceremony ends.

I also really have liked the idea of having a ceremony in someone's name. Not for any reason.... just to be honored. Not because their dead or sick but just because. Perhaps on any given day the community turns out to honor a person of the community. A fire, a feast, things like that. JUST THEM, they are the center of focus all day. Celebrate their life. We approach people in such obligatory ways its a way of reclaiming love and not making it an obligation.

And people sense that they are being approached in obligation , that makes it awkward for them to receive.

Reclamation of honor. It helps people to learn to honor themselves if they are directly being honored in a heartfelt way. If the system goes down the way we think it will be are going to have ample opportunity for ceremonies in a way that people don't have now.

So in this community that is being dreamed is there ceremony?
and what kind and to what purpose?

To me ceremony is the greatest healer
rectifier, sanctifier, unifier,
solidifier, motivator, transformer
and pathway to community redemption

I do not like being without it.
I insist upon it
thrive upon it.

What ceremony do you do
and what do you see, if any
for a community?

[9eagle9]

]Last time I began with questioning how we could come into balance when it is only men publicly claiming to understand the divine feminine while often speaking in a masculine language and setting.

I think when Men come fully into the Divine Male they will have no problems with the DMF. And vice versa. We just really have had the experience of it yet, in a collective sense. Someone distorted that with that word equality. It was taken to mean we should all be the same. It's really about all of us holding equal honor. Equality just caused more polarization.



There is a masculine and a feminine way of thinking. One is not more right than the other---they are different.


No there is. And I think their funny these differences, instead of disparaging we should honor them. I also felt that women thought in circles and men more in a linear way. But together there would be that necessary balance of emotion and logic.

It is Aristotelian logic taught down thru the ages says that if something is this way; it cannot be that way.

Yep. It can be done anyway. We have unlimited choices. Public education really stresses that things must be thought and done a certain way. On that note my daughter has had numerous detentions for hugging her class mates. I cannot believe how a school would shame children into not offering comfort to another.

Globalization in the beginning sounded like a good idea to me. It did not mean to me what it does to the PTB.

A lot of people were hopeful that is what it meant and the politicos encouraged that it was all about one world access and freedom. I used to move freely back and forth between Canada just an hour away. I can't anymore you need a passport "May I see your papers " . They are cutting us off even as they say they are uniting (unionizing) us.

A survey taken on the internet asked would you rather have your spouse as intelligent as you, less intelligent than you or more intelligent than you. 70% of the men said they wanted a spouse less intelligent than they but 90% of the women said they wanted a spouse more intelligent than they.


I used to think think I wanted a partner smarter than me. What I really meant is someone who could SHARE with me. Show me something I didn't know. My biggest problem with men, which is actually theirs not mine, is they can't manipulate me. Don't tell me something I know (not think) to be true and then tell me I'm an idiot because I know what I know. Most relationships are built on elaborate game and role playing with a great deal of it revolving around manipulation. I don't manipulate people therefore i won't be manipulated. I spot it immediately and I soon as I do...that's it.

My husband stopped going on cruises because all the lawyers who finally get talked into taking a long cruise so shock their systems that at least one dies on every cruise from a massive heart attack.

This may be less to do with the Lawyers curse than stress. I think the typical Lawyer thrives on stress and when it isn't there, a break down occurs. Couple that up with 24 hour access to huge quantities of food and drink. ...

Loneliness is experienced in the cities but not in nature.

Couldn't have said it better.

We would be jumping into lots of unknowns, not knowing each other first would be a disaster. How can you have the back or be sure of your back with a stranger?


That's part of the guru effect. The guru gathers all these hapless unthinking people around them, and they are led by the nose. Oh, I see this so much. Everyone looking for a guru, master, adept. But when the crunch comes down, and the guru calls for back up they found they have gathered an army of assholes at their back. I would prefer to gather people around me who know what to do so well (better than I even) I'd never have to worry.



Interesting the great China experiment of one kid resulted in a huge over population of men which they expected going in---the buy off was that it would automatically make women more valuable and that turned out to be true. But the unintended consequence was that China has relied for thousands of years on the family taking care of the old.

We did this in America too. The first thing we are taught is to be a responsible citizen you have to acquire a credit history. That means plunging into debt, and then working the rest of your life to pay it off. To be independent, get away from your family as far and fast as possible. No interdependency. Just separation. You have not arrived until you are completely separated and independent of your family. And parents provide such authoritative rigid homes, children run off like their on fire to get away from it. My mother was a clinical narcissist, bordering on sociopath. She taught me no life skills and it was really hard for me when I finally escaped the oppression. I knew absolutely nothing but the driven need to get away from that.


Gillilard suggested that if you are into believing that you can consciousness raise yourself out of a crisis that you first go practice on a rock or a wave. How long does it take you to stop one or lift one?

Consciousness raising is a bone in my side and its not my rib. The last great raise in consciousness we had was an overgrowth of ego because we had so much duality fed to us culturally. The New Age has material that is equally dualistic. Dehumanizing even. The last Consciousness shift class I posed a question to the class. What are we what is the common denominator that we all share. It took fully an hour of listening to 'we are angels' 'we are reincarnated aliens;, we're this , were that. Finally some intrepid soul suggested we are humans? Bingo. An hour it took. No one liked the answer. I'm a human I can do lots of human things. For these people who are convinced they are angels, I say "Fly. Why can't you do something an angel would do. " I'm think we need to focus on dividing consciousness rather than raising the whole sorry mess higher. Untangling the ego dominance. The higher we climb in the mind the more we get away from the soul.

¤=[Post Update]=¤

Hi Ernie, nice to see you here.


I don't know how to go from here to there, so to speak. How we can change our mindsets to allow for some sort of co-operative venture to succeed. Especially if it is only a small group basically supported by the modern world as it is today. But I feel that small groups are doomed to fail because of the false beliefs most of the world holds as inviolate.
I still believe that for any such model to have any chance it must have a document which all agree to uphold. It must clearly outline the beliefs and the rights of its constituents.

I have started a thread on that very idea that I simply titled, World Peace.
Maybe it can start a dialogue on the fundamentals of such a mode of living.

Peace

[9eagle9]

ooooooo. Okay. Loaded question even though I know you didn't intend it to be. A shaman doesn't define themselves as a shaman there's a reason for that. Most shamanic people are shamanic long before they ever know of it so ...thus know the limiting traps of assignment. Shaman is more a state of being. So it would be sorta like saying 'I'm a happy."

It's other people who make assignments and that's okay, for a basis of understanding. There's a lot of self assigned shamans running around my neck of the woods, (they took the weekend course in shamanism) and they aren't really because they have to remind you it constantly (reminding themselves). Shamanic practitioners. Picking up a rattle and drum doesn't make you a shaman because its a state of being that nothing in the material world will give you. Their state of being is one of fear otherwise they wouldn't need to constantly remind and label themselves. Someone who was an actual shaman may take a stance of "People will figure it out on their own (or not.)"

That may not be the answer your looking for but its more appropriate than yes or no ...lol.. It may be appropriate for me to be referred to as a medicine woman as it becomes obvious in watching me practice but medicine woman is a state of being too. With the understanding that is not WHO I am. I'm a person first, medicine women is a facet of who I am in .People would behave false and forced around me if I had an imposing title and my mission is authenticity. And the expectation is that I would have to behave like a medicine women all the time and people actually get angry and feel misled if you aren't in that role-...Don't ever let them catch you having a beer or a listening to thrash metal, your reptuation is shot. But if you didn't have the rep, the assignment, they can't shoot it down.

I don't ever want it to be suggested I have some sort of authority outside of where my authority actually lies.

Besides shaman and medicine person are facets we all carry they may just not be polished or awake yet.

People who do medicine work or even psychics and mediums tie up their self identity in a title and other people will too and it is dehumanizing for all involved. )re: the beer and thrash metal trap) They no longer treat you like a human, you are a psychic. Or a shaman. Or a medicine person first, a person is low on the list. Medicine people focus on excavating and preservation of self so its counterproductive for them to enter into assignments that will burden the self.

To make a comparison people may say they are an account. They are a person who does accounting. They don't assume a role and red cape and fly around all night crunching numbers. Its a facet of who they are that is assumed and then put down again. Because if you carry it 24/7 is very exhausting.


9eagle, I really enjoyed your post there. Do you define yourself as a shaman?

I've got to say that I'm sitting here reading all this and pretending I'm actually in a community with all of you. When the overly intellectuallized talk begins, I see myself heading outside. I laugh as I say this. I was raised to be an overly intellectualized female; I wanted to be a college professor. But at some point, I let it all go in an effort to discover who I am, which is not my mind and what it's stuffed with. So I would hope that in a community, when I get up and leave the room that no one would take offense and maybe someone would join me outside?

Who you are! Not a role. We will have lots of roles or facets in our life times. When people relax with each other and the assignments of who we must be instead of who we are, are relaxed lots of people will be joining you outside.

[Arrowwind]

Arrowwind,

I need to apologize for not allowing you the space to choose for yourself. I have wanted to see other people respond so much that I tried to push you instead of call you. My deep regret. I do this publicly because I became aware of what I have done.

Namaste, Jai

No offense taken or even seen. Perhaps it is the murmerings in your own head.. but I have a tough hide also an have few insecurity buttons to press.

I have become very pressed for time as we are packing for a road trip to the Yucatan right now and will be leaving early in the moring. I will have some internet access but for the next week or so It will probably be quite limited.

Look though history and you will see that the communities or societies that faired the best had a common bond of ceremony and a basic agreement on how this is enacted. It binds people together in intention and purpose and opens hearts to one another when the common struggles of life might work to close them

Because I reside on Turtle Island I have been drawn to the ceremonies of this land, of which there are many, but two have stood the test of time better than so may others.. people and worked hard to carry them forth regarless of oppression and memory loss.
My first sweat lodge was with blackfeet indians who came to San Deigo in 75. The told me that they perform the ceremony at great risk because for them it is against the law to do so... they and all tribes did not win their religious freedom until 1979.. which many people are astounded to hear,, this our nation, that was founded on the the will for religious freedom?


I have brought up a topic that I feel ever so strongly about but will mostly have to put off in dealing with the specifics.

9eagle9,, I too am commited to the sweat lodge and the medicine wheel. We do the sweat work in our local community here and the medicine wheel work I am introducing. I am in the process of construction a 20 foot diameter wheel on the land that we reside on. Last fall clearing of the space... this spring, finding the stones, this summer a pipe ceremony to set the stones... I am blessed to have a woman friend who is a sacred pipe carrier as taught to her by Sun Bear.

The medicine wheel is a profound map of human psychology, the workings of the elements, the plants, the animals, the human soul and its process of evolution. It is a teaching tool for children and adults alike, and a cleansing tool. It reminds us of our place in the world and shows us how to best maneuver though the world and the challenges of life. It being earth based there are no gods, but a clear recognition of the ancestors and spirits who surround us, help us, watch out for us and provide for us teaching if we but ask. The great creator forces reside within the center... wahkwahaun, sskwahuan. (the male female creative force) there are wheels within wheels. that spin to show us all our possibilities and potentials, as well as limitations when wrongly worked.

The sweat lodge takes the medicine wheel to the next level of prayer. It is the shamans cave, the sacred womb, the place of birth and death. The same woman provides sweat lodge ceremony for us at certain times of the year. We do not do a monthly ceremony because the weather can be so wicked here in the winter, with howling winds and sometimes 10 to 20 below.

We also have a local community talking stick, developed for woman's work... we call it The Sisterhood of the Traveling Talking Stick
that meets every other thrusday. Here woman get to speak their truth and get to practice elementary ceremony... a safe place to hone skills and to share deep wisdom as well as pain.

Husband calls... I have to go.

[Arrowwind]

Ah, a few stolen minutes....

Medicine wheel teachings are a form or a container that most belief systems can fit within. It matters not what god you may choose there is a place on the wheel... within this system one can individually call upon ones personal master, teacher, god, saint, whatever... there is no restirction.. so within a community, that gives a lot of leaway for those who hold on to a wide variety of religous contructs...yet allows for a coming together platform for diversity and the opportunity of meeting heart to heart.

It is a design and coreography of energy workings (as it the sweat lodge)... it is magic in the pursest sense.. and when people start to work the wheels they recieve superior guidance not from a doctrine, but from their own unfolding revelations... right into the source of self they go, out of which comes the answers they seek.

What ever system a community may revolve around it should be a system that
keeps open for personal revelation with out limitation... as least this is what I
I feel that I could commit to... as a system that has as its intent the unfolding
of personal power and enlightement backed by love. It is my belief that this is
what is the world as a whole needs to find its way out of the current morass.

[write4change]

Eagle, I wish I had th ability to respond the way you do. It would make my life so much easier. If you think it is possible to teach me on the phone how to bold and respond to the bolding the way you do. Let me know.

Arrowwind, thank you for your understanding. You will come back from Yucatan with much inspiration and enrichment. Then we will listen.

To you both, I have done many Lakota sweat lodges but with mixed company only lead by an incredible young medicine man who was married to an old woman and who was really into serving White Buffalo Woman. There is an interesting reaction between the Blackfeet and the Lakotas. One of the things I have learned from doing many PowWows is how difficult it still is for many of the tribes to get along. I was showing some pictures that were 100 years old and not identifiable to me. And they would look at them and say Blackfeet etc. Just be able to immediately identify the tribe by looking at the face.

The first sweat lodge I did made the deepest impression on me. It was on behalf of man about 43 who had cancer and was about 60% documented Lakota which many consider to be a lot now days. The invitees were spiritual practioners of modern medicine as this guy was an Xray technician in the real world. He did not make it through the entire ceremony and had to leave. It was much harder for the men than the women physically. Although maybe that is because they did the singing and what talking was done and the women said nothing. I know I was incapable of saying anything. I think we did from 6PM to Midnight in the middle of winter. It was very dark and very cold out side. We totally disrobed in another TP.

The thing that amazed me was that the medicine man could sing mostly and talk through this whole thing. What stayed with me was the understanding of why there was so little mental illness among the Indians. The medicine man talked about what it meant to give up your water for others. What I knew was that I had no friends that I could ask to spend ten hours of their time to be with be because I was sick nor would they make themselves give up their water to share your experience. The idea alone that people gave up something that intimate to be with you is itself is very healing. I definitely went somewhere else through a substantial part of the ceremony. People who do saunas and in a gym one 20 t0 30 minutes is enough--six hours. The guy left because he could not take it--maybe not the heat but the care. It took him 3 times before he could get through one. His life was also very messed up with alcohol and women. He had a great deal of guilt because he could not stay on the Red Road. I think he got in touch with just wanting to leave. He died I think because he would not allow himself to receive.

Somewhere today and here I read that altruism really isn't because it makes you feel better, may be very true for me. I was the only "not" person who stayed with the series. And it was because I got far more out of it than I put into it. It did cleanse me of a lot of stuff. And it was an easy way to consciously astral project. Until then, it was something that just happened. I was no longer afraid to go there but I could not reve myself up enough to go---something had to provide the stimulus. This taught me how to find energy in stillness. And I would come back both exhausted and more aware. What is strange is that just remembering this is draining. I either want to sleep or to dream and I just may do that.

[Sowelu]

I had a futuristic dream a few years back that a large percentage of people had died,
and for some reason (something to do with our Sun)
we could not and were not allowed to Use any electronics anymore.
Or our lives would be endangered.

We had gone back to above ground irrigation canals" too, as if the underground piping was no more.
Houses appeared to be made of sand.
Many with lots of windows or openings to let in as much light as possible.
The climate had become hot and humid.
People relied on trade as before, yet a system of equivelency was in place,
so no one had more than another but these survivors were content with equality because they had been raised to think as a community.

Schooling consisted of learning to farm,social interaction and oneness,hunting,building, spiritual growth and other necessary education
but it seemed as if electronics and things mechanical were considered "taboo" Almost feared by the people.
No homework just a lot of hands on interaction.
Everyone seemed very intellegent and respectful (even the youth)
you could understand them just by making eye contact.

It was also very beautiful. :)

[Arrowwind]

is asking support for the offering of doing this process. 20,000 people on the net is almost nothing. 20,000 people with intention may be somewhat harder. But 20,000 people at five dollars a month is 1.2 million dollars -- enough to support seed communities really trying.

I think I have the creativity for a website to pull this off but I do not have any technology to do so. I do not have time to learn. I have held my hand out to the universe saying I am doing the best I can with what you have given me. .

I have been going though the previous posts to catch up and came upon this...

I do think you have a great idea... and it could be done with the right amount of energy and focus behind it. There are a couple of communities in not so far away Montana... and I suspect up in northern Idaho too.

We have 8 acres with a 20 acre lot right next door for sale... it has tons of water rights... and zoning is one home per 2.5 acres but I think 4 acres is more reasonable. Taxes are so low its almost laughable and only minimal permits required for building... septic.. is requried to be permitted. In those regards construction for us has been very very low in cost.

Could be a nice little satelllite community... there is a force of people from Hailey, across the mountian that are into the community concept.. I breifly met with them last summer... they have a camp here about 15 miles away... for kids, but other things go on there too.
They are endevoring to make it a full time community before long... its located on a beautiful river.

The hard part here is the long and cold winter.... it is really for tough people if they are not tough... and who are willing to do alternative agricultural projects with specially designed greenhouses... really taking Steiner to the hilt in soil and land developement... I think much could be done with correctly applied knowledge and intelligence...

see where we are. in the link below.. I have not updated the work we got done this summer fully... the greenhouse/sunroom to the house is now up... but no photos... Those cute litte houses as in your photos would not work so well here I think... it all depends. my husband is an architect... and smart enought to figure things out. Everything here should be insulated to a 38 or 42 with passive solar and solar hot water.

http://www.sufficientself.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=2159

[Arrowwind]

I think groups of around 36 could go off to some places and make it. I think like minded people could survive in the Postman scenario but not in Mad Maxx which will go back to the stone age.

The right people and the right climate. The closer you are to a year round growing climate that does not threaten an minimally/unclad body with hypothermia the less you need to depend on technology. Eskimo parkas and mukluks are a technology you would die without.

Climate is really important to keep stress low and joy high.

Two points I thought I would address here.

Climate is an issue of course. but I want to ask where will the good climate be in 30 years, or even 10? Things are a changing, and quickly. I would not want to be near a coast, of that I am certain. We can adapt to a multitude of environments. If we have a pole shift we are all doomed, even those who went to live underground...

at 6,500 feet with harsh winters Native Americans did do it. The only difference between them and me and you is their know how. All things can be learned. You will notice if you look that Idaho is the state known for its influx of survivalists from all political and spiritual persuasions. Look to Montana also.

I do not see people being stressed out from the climate here.. they lay back in the winter and work hard all summer.


I am betting that things are not going to shift so drastically... I could be wrong but it is the bet I have made... Earth changes I are believe are going to be mitigated so that we can reconstruct our toxic world to enable it to continue... If all the nuclear crap laying around made its way to the waters nothing as we know it would survive. Just look at what the toxicity of the world trade center presented. Many of the resuce workers are now dead... and that was only from a couple of buildings.... we could be doomed, It could be possible but I must believe that it is not going to happen for all... what would be the point in even trying with such beliefs.. One must choose their beliefs to support their reality and the reality they anticipate to attain.

My main concern for finding a place was its accessibility to others... I want it to be hard for others to get to me if the SHTF. I am unsure if I went far enough out... I will say this, If I want to purchase a battery for my camera I have to drive over 110 miles through a rather nasty desert both in the winter and the summer. There are places in the central of the nation that are far removed.. I perhaps would have done better if that drive as 200 miles upon reflections... but if you have no car and no water 110 miles for the couch potato is quite far.. most would not make it with the conditions found here... or the would all kill each other in trying.

I do want to say a few words about small town America. A family, a unit or even a community must have the support of its neighbors. 36 might be able to do it all alone, but why should they? Neighbors can present many options in support and good association. I would prefer my place to be near folks who already know a fair amount about getting along.

We have already made our bed and now we must lie in it. We have thrown everything we have into our project... this little town is equiped with people who are resiliant and can make it come hell or high water and I feel that we could count on them and they are leaning that they can count on us to share and provide what we can..... (but there wont be high water here at 6,500 feet. )

write4change,, those experiences you went though in LA, and all... well, it is just good that you survived with your soul intact.
I know what you speak of having had to live 15 years in Dallas Texas... what a long strange trip its been.
.. I did not have the Bell Aire view, although it was not far away and I skirted with it frequently, I had the extreme opposite view, that of poverty, ager, drug dealers,
racism, gun battles.. etc.. ultimately these people are all the same, if from Bell Aire or South Dallas... it is a self destructive consciousness, a sociopathic mindset and if the SHTF they will eat each other alive.... they are doing it already.

[Arrowwind]

.
Everyone seemed very intellegent and respectful (even the youth)
you could understand them just by making eye contact.

It was also very beautiful. :)

Sowelu
Your dream reminds me of this book.. an interesting read about community in a far off place.
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_i_0_34?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&fieldkeywords=the+kin+of+ata+are+waiting+for+you&sprefix=the+kin+of+ata+are+waiting+for+you

[write4change]

Surviving a geophysical event seems to me to be a crap shoot. If the PTB knew exactly how it would transpire they would not be building so many different underground places. Now that we understand the physical evidence of the past better no matter how bad it was --- some survived but the big centers of civilization did not and therefore much much knowledge was lost and any that was left apparently was deliberately destroyed.

If in 1950, the PTB had said the Enki chronicles are real and in sixty years this phenomenon will come again. We are obligated to tell you and you are fair warned. In 60 years there will be a pole shift taking down most of the earth's structures. If this had appeared on a blank page in every newspaper in the world. We would be exactly where we are today. I had to experience this site to understand that. And I would have been a part of it.

So realization comes as it comes.

I spent most of yesterday trying to track down Steven's European Ecological Communities as the film he links to costs 40 bucks. These are my general conclusions.

Those that started communities on a shoe string and were poor remain poor. They can survive but they did not have the money to build off grid energy to start with and living without it has not improved their ability to get it. They can feed themselves and live a comfortable current life but have no ability to preserve for the future. It costs substantial money to build good solar units and wind energy etc.

Those that started with substantial land and endowments have done much better as far as building a sustaining community. There seems to be a choice of a few 10 or less people living on about five acres or 200 or more on a substantial compound.

In Europe there is no out in the boonies. People who thought they would get support from the communities were wrong. They are not targeted in any way they are just totally on their own. People will not buy their excess food etc. They wind up donating it to charity. This appears to be because the idea of disconnecting from society by getting off the grid is not approved of by society. If you want to do it --- fine but do it on your own.

Over the years, these groups have turned to the internet for support and get it here and there but there is no commitment to it that they can rely on. Thus, all the wisdom/knowledge that they thought they would be sharing for free has become much more proprietary because they need the money to continue. Now if information is correct, these places cannot survive geophysically either.

And there does seem to be a consistency that the group has been propelled by the drive, vision, and commitment of one person. People will solidify around him but no group seems to have become a solid unit on their own. Apparently, you can have a patriarchal or matriarchal intentional family but no Andromeda group. So what I am trying to do is more than just difficult. The best you get is the force of a good and balanced couple so far. What has probably happened is that we have so lost contact with the concept of tribe from so much nuclear family contact. Something else probably forced on us by the PTB. For sure, the truth is the wild west was settled not by a lot of rugged individualists but a lot of cooperative effort that was then systematically dispersed by machine usage.

So I have come against the reality that getting 20,000 people to support the idea of sustaining one group because they did not decide to sustain themselves soon enough, will probably not fly. What would fly is a creative soul game or experiential game that soothes them as long as possible. That money could then be used to support the few. And manifesting something like that is possible. I think I can creatively channel something like that and may have been for the last two years but do not have the tech to get the site up. I probably can manifest the seed money.

If the simple things cannot get traction spending time thinking of creative ways for others to do this in other ways is a waste right now. What I am coming to understand is the 250,000 on the political site I left are pushing up the bolder over and over to no avail and their struggle calms their anxiety and rage and this is a filter their conscience can live with. Then there are the fairy airy sites of Second Life that amaze me people are so involved in. But then again it is a living dream and they have control on that level and it is a conscious matrix of choice while bizarre to me I can understand it for others.

Age may make more of a difference than it ever has before. You can almost see the break by the length people can read and write. I tease Wade Frazier that he and I are the only ones writing pages and paragraphs. I have no idea if they have some kind of elliptical understanding that is beyond me but much of what is written does not make a lot of sense to me.

Much of where I am now is a reflection of this thread's feedback. Mod has pointed out that this is heavy female energy and not much male contribution. This is the very opposite of what is supposed to happen in consciousness. The Divine Feminine says you called here I am. Where's my welcome? And the Divine Masculine says I am still chasing the Divine Elusive catch you later.

Can this be worked out or worked on? I am fast now coming to the conclusion of my part on this thread and then I will try sacred sexuality which I know all the masculine lurkers will voyeur over. The question is will they come....... Take that as you choose. LOL

In this day in age much of what needs to be done can be done with a good small tractor and a bobcat. So maybe a total women's group is possible. When Mad Maxx arrives we feed him, seduce him, get pregnant by him and he leaves to go do his male rampaging somewhere else. As the years pass and things settle down, and you know all the lay of the land one fine festival when he comes back you just quietly poison them all and start with the new generation again. LOL

Dear Arrowwind,

Can you ask your husband if you could take the earthbag houses and wrap them in R 32 insulation, cover that with chicken wire twice and then adobe plaster it in place and expect it to last substantially?

Architects hate to change but time and money will be a factor.

Thanks to Wade and that guy from Japan I have thought of way maybe to come up with a couple of hundred thousand cash. I have to hook up with a man to do it. One who can quietly face the bad guys and say you once offered this for her to go away and....

And I am beginning to seriously think about your neighbors etc and 110 miles away.

[write4change]

I HAVE NO MEDICINE FOR YOU

This post is because of reading about things on the Charles material which I am never sure how I feel about it. But on this site we are still stewing with what we are forming. And based on living forward but understanding backward. I remember this very serious game played back in the mid 70s at Stanford home of both Hoover Institute, the Rand Institute, and SRI some of the first think tanks in the country.

I HAVE NO MEDICINE FOR YOU is played this way. A circle of about 30 people are gathered. Each is given five uninterrupted minutes to tell their life story. Then the leader comes out and says I have bad news for you a plague bomb has just been dropped on the city. We only have enough medicine for 1 out of ten. You have to prepare to choose three people from here in the next 3 hours. Please begin by allowing each person two minutes to say what he has to give in what will be a new world as he knows it.

At the end of this time, he passes our a little paper bag of sugar. He tells you it takes 10 doses to survive the plague. Each person must now walk around the circle and hold out their hand in front of each person. You either give him your bag of sugar or you look him in the face and say I have no medicine for you.

This is repeated until 3 people have ten bags. This can be in many ways a very traumatic game. If you remember 911 Dr. Phil had just come on the air with his new show. He started with this but after 911 did not show it for almost a year.

When I did this Dr. Victor Lovell at Prometheus lead. Looking back on this I am sure the think tanks thought this up to see how the brightest and best handled it from their point of view. I say this with tongue in cheek. One of the things I know for sure is only mature people should play this game. But the reality might be that we all may be playing it in the near future. So I put it out there for food for thought.

[Come As You Are]

What an insightful, honest and funny post.Thank you write4change, it was (and the ensuing ones) a refreshing read, parts of which I could really identify with. The tree stump story really rang true!
I live on a small acreage which has real potential to produce food and fibre for a small community. For three years, I have lived here alone, about 30km from the nearest regional centre, but I have always made it clear to friends and family that I see it as their place too. I have put advertisements in a few seemingly suitable places, as the place would be a perfect getaway for artists, rockclimbers, anyone really seeking a retreat from which to start living productively away from the core system.
To my surprise, most people glaze over, almost as if the idea does not make any sense to them, they simply do not respond, as if the words or ideas are blank spaces in their understanding. I have to an extent "given up" on this open door policy, and just do the work myself, slowly chipping away, improving things, building the gardens, planning my next development. I am effectively a hermit.I work part time in the district and rent a shed to a local man who lives there quietly in his caravan. He is fairly deeply entranced by the system and the only way that will change is through him recognising it for himself. This seems to already be happening, so perhaps we may have the start of a growing community there.
What I guess I'm hoping for is that a productive alternative will grow of it's own accord. Without the boundaries of hierarchy. With the simple enjoyment of seeing good things happen and healthy growth mentally, physically and spiritually.
Action still speaks louder than words, although in the beginning was the word!
You write very beautifully.

[Come As You Are]

To me, this small snippet is more full of insight and truth than all the Charles material one could muster.
Hi, you all, I was surprised to find this revived. I want to first start with my failures.

With the first Gulf War in 1990, I began having huge internal feelings that everyone was soon going to hit a brick wall and how could I get my family to survive? We had moved from LA to Las Vegas in 1988, we were part of the first wave. We sold our LA house for $450,000 dollars all cash and bought for $243,000 cash a fully furnished model in The Lakes of Las Vegas, the first man made lake there. It was an architecturally award winning house. Of all our houses, it was my daughter's favorite.

It was two story with high ceiling living room and very expensive to heat and cool. I wanted a sitting room in the master bedroom and a deck leading out of it, a solarium facing the lake. We did all the right things by the book to get it approved by a severe homeowner's association. The first thing we learned was how badly these houses were built and ours as a model had to be one of the best. To put these houses up fast and cheap, they were essentially make of Styrofoam and chicken wire. When the mortgage is done most of these homes will be too--planned disposable housing. In order to build we had to steel pier. The other thing I wanted was insulation. I am facing west with new addition and the sun is hugely intense from 10 AM to 7 PM in the summer. And the law says you only have to insulate to R 13. I insulated the entire addition to R 32 everywhere and special double pained insulate windows. The result was instantaneousness dropping of my air conditioning bill by at lest 500 a month. This is 1988 gives you some idea how draining all those Las Vegas houses are to the environment.

We truly did not realize when we were planning this that we would block the view of the single story next to us belonging to an old retired couple. Since they were only one they could not mount any kind of protest at the homeowner's meeting. We never attended and hired people to do all this.
Trust me, the undying enmity of one person can make your life miserable. But had I known I would have done it anyway, thinking in the grand scheme of things it was not a big deal and they would get over it. They had three free sides to their house and our extention only meant they could not see across the lake when they were in the breakfast nook.

My husband had represented as a tax attorney CPA some major players for over 30 years. He had commuted to Vegas from LA all that time spending 3 days there and 4 days in LA. We decided to reverse it when our five year old daughter attended a birthday party for one of her classmates in Bell Aire. You drove thru two sets of gates. The party was in the pool house which was 5,000 sq feet. I never saw the main house. You should have seen the goodie bag! My daughter is just gleeful. She says to me Mommy, I am going to marry Eric, the birthday boy. So I say well he certainly has your attention---why do want to marry him. And she says because he's filthy rich. I do not speak that way--not only is he rich--but filthy rich. At five we take our daughter to her first visit to a psychiatrist because she is "dieting." She does not have an ounce of fat on her body. According to the pediatrician she is in the low quartile of her age and height for weight. She would flex her knee and pat her calf and it wiggled which was proof to her she was fat. We were sending her to a preschool that cost 8500 per year not counting temple dues in Beverly Hills. I could write a book about what I observed that first year. I was born poor white trailer trash, and this was not the way I wanted my daughter raised and I could already see peer pressure was going to have a much bigger influence than I. Thus, the move to Las Vegas.

From private to public school, they wanted to skip my daughter three grades which I knew she emotionally could not handle. I said no and the next year enrolled her back into Jewish private school where she was once again average.

I take her to a sleep over with a girlfriend who has a maid, chauffeur, and housekeeper and parents who are almost never home and around the world. I again learn to feel sorry for the poor little rich girls. When I come to pick her up, I hear screaming and carrying on and I run up the huge double ended stairway to the kids room where she has her own bath and bedroom size closet with electric rotating shelves. In the bathroom, both girls have wet wash clothes and are slapping each other with them. One is saying I am the richest and the other is saying I am the prettiest. I cannot believe this and I start my speech of peace and harmony and universal souls. And I say, you never see other women cat fighting like this way and they look at me and say Chrystal and Alexis--Dallas--do this all the time.

In the two years, we live there I watch the clear skies turn to smog and junk like Mexico City which also is totally surrounded by mountains and has an inverted system. I watch all the golf courses go up which is worse on water than a man made lake. I watch the Hoover damn and lake drop a foot a year.

My husbands knows and has friends who are really friends with Steve Winn who has just announced his plans for the Mirage with huge water usage and waste. He is going to put dolphins in the desert. I get 5 minutes with him at a break in the big basketball game. I beg him to reconsider and give him a quick thematic presentation of what he could do with sand and the environment and imagination by switching from an Oasis in the desert to Xanadu of mysticism. He essentially laughs in my face. One of their big R and D was spending three million to produce a neon sign that was black in the daytime and white at night.

They bring in rare and exotic plants from all over the world to put a mini jungle in the entrance inside the Mirage. They refused to do silk plants etc even though they were advised that natural plants would not make it. They did it any way. The plants all died. And they had to rush the silk ones by bringing over the Japanese to make them on the premises. I do not know how the dolphins felt about living in the desert and totally away from the sea unlike SeaWorld which is bad enough. For them the sun no longer exists.

I have now been married for seven years as the trophy wife never really understanding what that means before. Making the story now quick and simple. My husband buys the oldest casino on the strip without asking permission of the jewish casino mafia feeling he has worked for them so long thinking he has earned his chance. Wrong. I tell him he is breaking the cardinal rule of business because he knows nothing about a casino. He bought it out of probate because two of the three partners were dead and the heirs could come to no agreement so the court put it up for sale. It is preapproved for demolition and for reconstruction and already pre leased. My husband says it is not a casino but a real estate deal. I say a casino is a casino is a casino. I was right and he was wrong. First, thing that happened was all previous approval withdrawn and we had to begin all over again. Suddenly, there is a WWII fuel storage facility underground that no one ever knew about before. We spend 50,000 a month on a gaming attorney alone. We are going to go bankrupt with this. At the last moment, my husband sells at a considerable loss to a New York syndicate who is fronting for the current mayor.

To survive this mess, I convince my husband to at least buy us a house in San Antonio where I originated and where my public education was good enough to stand up to Stanford. There is no income tax, homesteading is still inviolate, and while we are going to have to live on 30% of what his income was in San Antonio that 30% put us in the upper 2% bracket.

I have to go out for a while and what I see is that stories are better broken down in sequels. So I will leave this for a while and then tell my Texas tall tale. I think people from foreign countries may find this more interesting than Americans.

¤=[Post Update]=¤

Sounds like fun, count me in!
9eagle9: This wasn't my idea of community either... They aren't integrated in themselves to oneness let alone be shunted into a crowd of other un-integrated people.

Exactly. So how do we find integrated people who want to form community? Shall we do an experiment? Start another thread, make up a questionnaire, and see what responses we get? I'd be rather curious, myself... Here are some questions I'd ask:
1. Do you have any experience handling farm animals? If not, are you willing to learn? (This would eliminate the "Oooo the goats are too smelly" types.)
2. Are you willing to teach others everything you know how to do? (This would weed out those who cling too much to the idea that their knowledge makes them superior.)
3. Do you have confidence that if the world imploded and you were the only one left, you'd be able to make quite a good run at making it on your own? (Very important question, I think. This is not about who's the toughest but who might be the most creative problem solvers.)

This is kind of fun... anyone else want to contribute questions?

[Come As You Are]

Perhaps we could use snail mail, that'd stuff 'em!!
Maybe!?
Doodah,

I think this is a good idea and would make a good parallel thread. It would also do faster what I am trying to do here. I have decided to keep this thread going to some extant. Because experience does count for something. I spent over a million dollars learning this. I believe as it progresses you will see why. Because if you just start at the beginning thinking commitment, understanding, sufficient funds, etc. will allow you to succeed--it is because you do not know why other people failed.

Had I known the depths of the Owens project, I probably would have gone ahead but there are things that i would have done differently because I was warned.

On a simple one to one level this is looking at the macro level of assessing and collecting taxes for the mutual good of society/civilization.

And your last question is about the most important.

After I lay out all my failures, I will then draw a scenario that was actually possible and my experience with it on the net. Now I know it was a good thing not to have started that one. And I will also offer two other scenarios that are completely different that I don't know so much about. When I get there. We will break off into three threads of creation and let people discuss and ad their ideas. At least that is my plan for now. If nothing else, it gives us more stuff from new people to replace the Charles material if he is gone.

One of the things we might discuss is closing the threads just so the 33 cannot see how really creative and focused we can become. But I guess that is also an illusion as nothing on the net is really secret in any way. LOL

Thanks for joining me here and go for the animal one I will write some animal stories periodically because I have lots about how we learn from animals.

[Come As You Are]

write4change wrote: No one has to go here with me in any thought but I believe selecting the best we can for enduring this gets us a ticket. The good ETS who have lived by the universal laws of creation are going to stand by and literally beam those of us out in the open they can sense the vibes of. They will keep us and give us training until the earth subsides and then will return us to the places we were creating to survive in. We then get the chance to make conscious choices knowing our history and that of the universe as to what we can now comprehend. There is no free ride, we will literally get what we create with the reality that we have. For me that translates getting out of LA and it will take me 8 months to do it.

Reading your words and ideas is having a strong effect on me. Something I read here the other day which was said by Shadowstalker also got me. In relation to ET's possibly sensing and acting on certain individuals and what potentially may occur at and through a period of great earth cataclysm. I live near a very old "mountain" range in Victoria,Australia. I have experienced numerous very powerful and undeniable encounters out here, with lights, strange cloud effects like writing and physical representations in the day sky,moving craft and strange effects on aircraft. (It is in a direct flight path, and just a week ago a commercial Qantas flight lost altitude for a very significant distance probably just overhead, the explanation in the news had to do with "air conditioning").
Just last night,it was dark, but not high dark, about 9pm, I stepped outside to take the dogs for their constitutional, and within 2 seconds of me being out the door, a very bright "star" began to move very obviously away to the north east, it lasted for ten seconds, before dulling gradually and becoming smaller, still moving and turning red, then pink, then almost imperceptible, but stilled and a very small dot.
Next, nearby to that a "satellite", moving due north. All within a minute.
The previous night, I was outside and looked up thinking, "I will see something unusual almost immediately, and what do you know, there it was, a flashing, stationary "star", every other star was doing it's normal twinkling thing, but this one was flashing at me!
I could go on for pages with the various really amazing phenomena I have experienced here. Truly a very intensely active zone, or maybe this happens everywhere?
If you look up "The Commander", and Grampians, Victoria in relation to strange unexplained lights you may see that others have experienced some of this phenomena and I have friends who have verified some of the stuff I mention.
What I am wondering is, do these lights/ craft sense me? It feels as if they do. It feels as if they wait for me and then put on a show, to keep me enthralled. Some nights, I just have to go to bed! Or, my neck gets sore!!
Fascinating posts write4change and everyone. I am learning a lot in only a few days here, so thank you all.

[write4change]

THE YODA STORY OF A GENTLE LEMUR


Come as You Are,

You have been a gfit today, as I am beginning to see this thread as another failure. However, Bill's post on the process of making teams work allows me to realize that we are still in storming phase and it is true most visions die there. Those that succeed are really worked on.

For you I will tell the Yoda Story.

One of the things I learn in Lax Vegas is that I have a thing for big birds and most of them feel the same about me. At that time, when we stayed there, we stayed at the Troppicana. They had huge halls of connection that had big bird perches in the open. In this situation a big McCaw or Cockatoo have a perch, swing, gym set for birds with their food, water, and play toys. The birds do not get up and fly away because they are smart -- where would they fly to and they have all their needs provided for and in their own way they are social with the right people. Parrots would not have been pets for centuries if that were not true. Because most people have not spent a lot of time observing birds they did not know how smart they are and birds are highly observant.

This was also just at the time we are coming to realize that birds are the descendants of dinosaurs and Alex the African Grey is starting to come into public consciousness. So I would stop and talk to these birds and respect their territory. There were signs saying these birds bite and can break a finger. I am a singer so sometimes I would sing to them Bye Bye Blackbird and Die Fliedermus. Some of them would just go crazy for it and some it made no difference. After a couple of days some would climb down their perch and get on my hands and shoulders.

Birds make almost instant decisions about people. They can love you on sight and they can hate you on sight. I have never been able to change their minds about that. Every flick of a feather lifting of wings tilting of the head is an expression of communication. Before long I had several. I had a big umbrella Cockatoo named Casper with six cats. He had few words but he had this dance. He would get down on the floor and raise his wings up and down, throw his head back and forth, and stamp his feet. All the while saying I'M a Cockatoo cockatoo cockatoo Cock A TOOOO and he would chase the cats around that way. They would run under the chairs, the couch--They were terrified of him. Then he would hop back on his perch and laugh his head off.

Casper was a trip and I have other stories about him. But to keep him happy I kept him in mineral blocks for chewing and he ran thru them all the time. So I was a frequent pet store purchaser of parrot toys. So one day I go in the pet store to buy mineral blocks. I walk in the pet store and something jumps on my head and wraps its tail around my neck and says Mother. At least I heard that in my head as clear as a bell.

This monkey has escaped his cage and now has his hands in my hair and his tail around my neck. Three people had been chasing him. He will not let go to them in any way. I tell them to back off and let me deal with this. I reach up and I feel his soft almost like rabbit fur. It is a long body but a very delicate body. He licks my fingers. And he lets go and I cradle him in my arms. I can see that he is not really a monkey, I am not quite sure what he is but I am reasonably sure he is illegal. He is so sweet and so helpless and so frightened and I know so precious and some thug on a motorcycle is going to buy him.

Having a monkey has never been on my list of things to do. I had heard really bad things about them. I held rigid protect their habitat views. And I had a friend who was a stripper in North Beach San Francisco who had an act with a young Chimpanzee who on retiring had a major problem on her hands. In spite of all this in the back of my mind, I handed over my credit card. This little guy was 1000s, and this was totally out of my character. I then had to buy him a $300 cage. The only book in the store was about spider monkeys which he definitely was not. The store did not have a lot of definitiveness about what to feed him. I also bought a rabbit harness for him.

I have two days to get this all settle down before my husband comes home and gets to see that I have taken leave of my senses. I am reasonably sure this will be his view. When I look in his eyes and rub his tummy, He immediately raises one hand and splits his fingers like the Vulcan sign of live long and prosper. He has the most expressive eyes of any animal I have ever seen. He looks from the depths into the depths. I really love him deeply and instantly. I name him Yoda.

Now I think he is some kind of illegal primate and I need to find a special place for him and force the pet store to give my money back. I find out there is nothing illegal in Nevada about buying any kind of animal. I take him to Sigfried and Roy who have some chimps too. They find him interesting but too small to be effective for anything they do so they don't want him. But they help me do research. He is a gentle gray lemur and there are only about 1000 left in the world and he is about 10 months old and probably from parents stolen from a Florida breeding program but that can't be proved. Officially his provenance is unknown.

So Yoda is mine for now. I make no plans about the future yet. I just want to get to know him. He often walks spontaneously upright on two legs. His hands are very much like three year old human hands. Very soft, very expressive, very delicate, and very sensitive. When he studies your ear--he softly touches absolutely every crook and cranny. Then he will take on big sniff. Give you a little kiss and he is done forever apparently. Lemurs have long noses unlike other primates which produces to my mind many human expressions.

He instantly understood the leash and I projected and he seemed to understand and accept that it was for his protection. He never peed on me. I never saw him masturbate. He learned to used a litter box like a cat almost instantly. He would sit in a high chair with us at the table. He ate fresh fruit and vegetables and some greens. He also like dry cat food and dry koi food. He loved warm oatmeal with butter and raisins. He never just took anything but you could almost feel him ask. He learned to use live long and prosper almost like a high five sign. He was more nocturnal than not and slept most of the day in small dark woven cat basket I hung swinging from the top of the cage. His cage was six feet wide by two by four.

He would sit on my lap and let me brush him with a baby brush and eventually he learned to brush the cats or they let him. He would scratch their bellies and they would lick him and he would high five. He could jump four to six feet in the air straight up. I let him loose in the house occasionally but would watch him because of his jumping I was afraid he would hurt himself more than be destructive. He never was destructive in any way. Once he jumped up on a picture hanging on the wall which then tilted like crazy. He never jumped on another picture. He only had to experience something once to seem to understand it. I had glass tables and a lot of glass shelving. He would sit at the table with his highchair he examined the glass but never jumped on the tables or the shelves. He would jump on the book cases and other high furniture that was wood.

In the evening we would go out on the deck and the grass and he would catch his own crickets. It was obvious he loved doing this and wanted to do it on his own. I once bought him some live crickets at the pet store and he would have nothing to do with them. So at night I would go out with him and let him do his nocturnal hunting. If it was a warm night we would go in and have a little ice cream and if a cold night a little warm oatmeal and then he would go to bed. When I got up in the morning, he would join us for breakfast his favorite thing being peanut butter and toast and then he would go back to bed until twilight.

I took Yoda almost everywhere with me. I let him loose most of the time. The first time I took him car riding, he started exploring the car and then I saw he was going to get down around my feet. I don't know what made me do it but I started picturing in my mind strong clear pictures about if he got near the petals and I had to slam on the breaks even if I had to stomp on him I would. He never went there again. And to my surprise I got like black and white cube type pictures from him. From then on I worked at consciously lowering my mind shields and letting Yoda in.

It was Yoda who taught me how I shielded and how to feel taking them up and down. It is Yoda that I learned to trust and open myself to seeing things different. It was Yoda who began to give me an understanding of what true intimacy is and not to fear it. I think on a whole we teach fear of intimacy so deep that for most people it is totally unconscious.

When bad people or bad things came around I could tell Yoda to hide in my mind and he would. He would curl up under something and not come out until they were gone. We traveled back and forth from California where they stop you at the border and search the car. He would curl up under the passenger seat and never come out til I told him it was safe. And I would tell him to go there about a half hour before we hit the border. In the apartment in California I did not have a cage but made him a cat bed with a cover on the top of a closet shelf and he would just hop up there. Kept his cat box in the bathroom. The apt. was pretty spartan so we let him have free rein there, so he liked to visit.

My husband had his father's grandfather clock there and Yoda love to lean up against that and feel the ticking. I forgot to tell you the minute my husband saw Yoda he understood and never said much about the money. What he did say is with you I never know what I am coming home to. He really seemed to like that. Yoda would shower with him and take baths with me.

From Yoda I changed my mind about a lot of things. That we may not be able to save enough habitats but lots more animals can live with us in our ways than now do. This is not for all people like children are not for all people. I think everyone who wants to expand consciousness should read David Brin's the Uplift Series. It is interesting to me that many ETs have supposedly said science fiction is often more true than not.

It gives me great grief to tell you how Yoda's story ends. He traveled with me to Texas with six cats in the back seat and two parrots and Yoda in the front seat. He lived well with all of us while I built the house in San Antonio we lived on Lake McQueeney. When we moved to San Antonio I had a huge elevated deck built on the house and a cove for Yoda's cage during the nice months. And I would let him out in the evening free to catch crickets and stuff at twilight. I always kept him in sight to protect him and he knew that. By now I know a lot about lemurs and San Antonio has a big island of Lemurs but not gentle grays. So I have found out how much it would cost to buy him a mate from Florida and get San Antonio Zoo to take him and start a breeding program because to loose this species would be tragic. But I put it off because I love him so much.

One night two hawks fly down like dive bombers and rip him apart in front of my eyes and carry him off. Just drops of blood left on the deck. I cried for days and days. I felt like I had sinned against the universe because of my selfishness for keeping him when I knew better. I never thought of predators from the skies. Those hawks came back every day for a week looking for more. I had a low grade migraine for a month. That was in 1990 and I still miss him. Some day I intend to write a children's book about him when I have come to a place of more objectivity which I still do not have. What I want from that story is people considering the possibility of opening our minds to other intelligences as not equal or better or worse than ours but different. And different is always interesting. Maybe it is possible that that great genetic diversity is what is most valuable about this planet.

[giovonni]

Greetings ~ write4right wished for you all here to see and explore this Blogs shared information :thumb:

Earthbag Building Blog
Sharing information and promoting earthbag building
http://earthbagbuilding.wordpress.com/

http://www.greenhomebuilding.com/images/earthbaghouse/6kpapercretingmc.jpg

http://www.tinyhousedesign.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/2-earthbag-tiny-house-plans-spiral.jpg

http://earthbagbuilding.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/patagonia-earthbag-outhouse1.jpg?w=500&h=331

For much more ~ go to The Earth Blog site link below:
http://earthbagbuilding.wordpress.com/

http://www.permaculture.org.au/images/milkwood_earthbag1.jpg

Link to Step-By-Step Earthbag Building videos : Introduction
http://www.youtube.com/user/naturalhouses

[giovonni]

write4right (Jai) wished for those who follow this thread to view this ~ This video is from James Gilliland's Eceti Ranch


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZ8UU0qrc2E&feature=player_embedded

Here is a link to MrSon2k's Channel (Son is a staffer and kundalini instructor at the Eceti Ranch:
http://www.youtube.com/user/MrSon2k

[Come As You Are]

I took Yoda almost everywhere with me. I let him loose most of the time. The first time I took him car riding, he started exploring the car and then I saw he was going to get down around my feet. I don't know what made me do it but I started picturing in my mind strong clear pictures about if he got near the petals and I had to slam on the breaks even if I had to stomp on him I would. He never went there again. And to my surprise I got like black and white cube type pictures from him. From then on I worked at consciously lowering my mind shields and letting Yoda in.

http://www.biolib.cz/IMG/GAL/11952.jpg

Howzat!

[write4change]

The Yoda Teachings

Size matters not. Look at me.

Judge me by my size , do you? Hmm? Hmm.

And well you should not.

For my ally is the Force, and a powerful ally it is.

Life creates it, makes it grow.

It's energy surrounds us and binds us.

Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter.

You must feel the Force around you;here, between you, me , the tree, the rock,

Everywhere, yes.

Even between the land and the ship.

The truth, it is!

Do .... or Do not there is no try.

[giovonni]

write4change wrote: No one has to go here with me in any thought but I believe selecting the best we can for enduring this gets us a ticket. The good ETS who have lived by the universal laws of creation are going to stand by and literally beam those of us out in the open they can sense the vibes of. They will keep us and give us training until the earth subsides and then will return us to the places we were creating to survive in. We then get the chance to make conscious choices knowing our history and that of the universe as to what we can now comprehend. There is no free ride, we will literally get what we create with the reality that we have. For me that translates getting out of LA and it will take me 8 months to do it.

Reading your words and ideas is having a strong effect on me. Something I read here the other day which was said by Shadowstalker also got me. In relation to ET's possibly sensing and acting on certain individuals and what potentially may occur at and through a period of great earth cataclysm. I live near a very old "mountain" range in Victoria,Australia. I have experienced numerous very powerful and undeniable encounters out here, with lights, strange cloud effects like writing and physical representations in the day sky,moving craft and strange effects on aircraft. (It is in a direct flight path, and just a week ago a commercial Qantas flight lost altitude for a very significant distance probably just overhead, the explanation in the news had to do with "air conditioning").
Just last night,it was dark, but not high dark, about 9pm, I stepped outside to take the dogs for their constitutional, and within 2 seconds of me being out the door, a very bright "star" began to move very obviously away to the north east, it lasted for ten seconds, before dulling gradually and becoming smaller, still moving and turning red, then pink, then almost imperceptible, but stilled and a very small dot.
Next, nearby to that a "satellite", moving due north. All within a minute.
The previous night, I was outside and looked up thinking, "I will see something unusual almost immediately, and what do you know, there it was, a flashing, stationary "star", every other star was doing it's normal twinkling thing, but this one was flashing at me!
I could go on for pages with the various really amazing phenomena I have experienced here. Truly a very intensely active zone, or maybe this happens everywhere?
If you look up "The Commander", and Grampians, Victoria in relation to strange unexplained lights you may see that others have experienced some of this phenomena and I have friends who have verified some of the stuff I mention.
What I am wondering is, do these lights/ craft sense me? It feels as if they do. It feels as if they wait for me and then put on a show, to keep me enthralled. Some nights, I just have to go to bed! Or, my neck gets sore!!
Fascinating posts write4change and everyone. I am learning a lot in only a few days here, so thank you all.

Regarding your nearby very old mountain range, it's (likely) these light craft you mention are entering and existing into the inner Earth's realm- possibly a base? What you are seeing (experiencing) are power-ups. And yes - in many instances they (the celestial brethren), are responding to your communicative telepathy (your energy signature) as you stated above "our vibes." This phenomenon is quite common at the Eceti Ranch. Note many from your country come and visit there. Its funny though these occurrences are increasing all over the world ~ not because they are new events - it's just many more humans - are waking up to them. The sore neck is a ongoing hazard of this ~ get a comfortable lawn recliner ~ James Gilliland has lots of them :lol:

[Ernie Nemeth]

I have really nothing to add as this is not my area of understanding. However, I am convinced that I would survive in the wild because I am extremely creative and resourceful. I have never found a problem I could not find a solution for. I know it would be very hard. But when I lost my right to drive, through no real fault of my own, did I curl up in a ball and sulk? Well, actually I did - for like three weeks. Then I wiped my nose, made some calls, put my tools in a bag (50lbs.?) and walked 6 miles to work (had no money left to take a bus). There I stayed until I finished and was payed. For the past three years that is how I live (except I take subway and buses).
Write4change, Arrowwind, Giovonni, Comeasyouare (and all others on this post) you inspire me!
Peace

[Arrowwind]

I just viewed the earthbag sites... and will ask your specific question to my husband write4change when he has time to discuss it. His first comment was that he had lived in one already and didn't care for it while serving in Vietnam....bad associations

We made it to Salt Lake and now have a flat tire.. which though a long convoluted story is resulting due to warranties, in getting 4 new tires at $20 each so we will be here another day for that...

I don't think I would be comfortable in an earthbag house in the round hobbit style but the one found in Thialand is more suitable to my mindset.

Our house that we are building has a strong passive solar feature and my husband is guessing will cut use of other heat by about 30 percent.

With the earthbag house if you used a more conventional rectangle structure it would be easy to construct an internal wall with 19 r and simple framing covered with adobe mud or sheet rock, which on top of the bags Im sure would be sufficient for walls or added insulation. But what is the R value of these earthbag walls anyway? that is the first question. 19 is sufficient for walls in most of North America but higher in a north wall if possible, but the higher the better for ceilings. For Ceiling you want 38 R requiring a thick ceiling to place it within. In the round dome type it would be harder to construct the internal walls being that they are on a curve but I am sure someone could figure something out. With insulination, after placed it needs to be covered with a plastic of some sort to prevent condensation issues into the figerglass, unless you use a paper covered insulaton.. but its less expensive to use unfaced fiberglass insulation...

I think that analysing why people are not interesting in forming communites when the land and space is offered to them as in expressed by Come As You ARe.. for me, my main concern is the inability to hand down to our children what we have spent a lifetime working for.

So community. I think endures. when based on family... so far anyway... unless you develop a project where those who invest have an ability to pass their work and envestiment on to children in some kind of way... either by sale of their share or the children taking over their place.

How to develop a tribal mind set amongst our culture? especially if it means that some children must be cast out due to space constraints?

The single most destructive element of our current culture to keep people in poverty is that land and homes are not passed onto children to build wealth in a family.. If people could pass on with out sale and repeated reinvolvement of banks and the interest they make from essentially doing nothing but forcing the continued printing of money.... this is how you get land and home where people can eventually afford to be sustainable, to purchase or construct wind and solar off grid technology... but as long as you keep repurchaing and selling houses it will never happen for the middle class... all the delemia we are in is flowing from our transient culture... moving to chase work, education etc etc... there is no stablity for too much of the World population.

[write4change]

Sowelu,

You could have knocked me over with a feather when I saw your avatar. I have spoken with the artist and got linked to him thru the internet a couple of years ago. If I publish this book on reincarnation on Ceylon in 1870 this will be the cover. The title of my book is Amore. The title of this painting is Amore.

Always love the synchronicity of the universe.

Your story is holding forth one of the dimensional possibilities of the universe. I would join you.

[write4change]

A STORY OF LOVE AND HARMONY IN ACTION -- CHANGING A NATION


This a true story of a third world country that was moving quickly as a small developing nation. It was moving quickly because of a huge influx of western capital and the western sense of entrepreneurial business. And with so called prosperity came ideas of destroying the basic culture of people and villages caring for one another. Western religion also took over.

This began in the 60s. One of the people effected by this was a nurse who worked in one of the nation's major hospitals which were few and far between and not accessible to the general public because if you did not have money you could not get admitted period. There was no insurance and no public safety net. Many of these big hospitals were run by Western Christians. As this nurse watched a young woman bleed out on the emergency room floor she asked how this could be in the nation's interest.

So then she joined a medical missionary hospital run by the Catholic institutions. There Christianity was viewed as performing acts of charity as a from of redemption both personal and societal. This nurse had been a Buddhist all her live and did not want to convert to Christianity. However, she saw Buddhism as she had known it -- detaching from the cares of the world -- as allowing suffering to grow -- not karma being burned.

She consistently studied the sutras. She felt no place in her world for the compassion of the feminine as she experienced it. She came to believe that she was called upon to the reveal the power of the feminine which had no real power to move her world to action. Thus, she gathered 30 housewives together and they made a pact of manifesting compassion every day no matter what. That compassion was to act to cause a woman's hospital and teaching facility to be built. The act was that these 30 women would give two cents every day to the building of the hospital. There was no pay at the end of the month, pay it forward, actually giving in a little box before their home altar of the Buddha the two cents.

In time that goal came to be. This group acquired more members and more focus and women living their lives for this belief system. The woman never formally did the Buddhist hierarchal progression of study or lineage. But her followers called her a master and so she has come to be accepted throughout the Buddhist world and her work given contemplative thought as combining the best of Buddhism and Christianity.

The joy and the radiant health of these followers affected the whole nation and they passed universal health insurance and universal health care. It took 30 years to accomplish but it became like an inevitable push of the river from its source. Today this Buddhist organization has over ten million members and chapters in over 50 countries. The mother house is called the House of Still Thoughts.

I found out about all this by being treated by the Remote Air Medical Mission of American doctors who used to parachute into jungles to heal the hard to reach and now serve 50% of their time in morass of major American cities serving the poor. When they first came to LA we almost had riots of people needing care. They attended 8,500 people the first time and over 10,000 the second. Most of their supplies, most of the money needed, and most of their dentists, all the food, all of the drugs, and much equipment was furnish by this tiny third island that sees itself as having so much compassion for the poor of the USA.

They had a table of books and pamphlets all about their work and philosophy for free but most Americans were not interested in knowing the how of this blessing --- just give it to me. Many of them actually thought the American government provided this service and saw it as a right.
They have a three part motto that they sing with hand motions---there is no one I cannot love, there is no one I cannot forgive, and there is no one I cannot trust. I was rocking along until I got to trust --- a huge deal for me.

One of the things I learned is how this nation makes so much out of so little. While they were here they collect plastic bottles everywhere. They invented and developed a way of making fiber out of used plastic both warm and cool to the touch. Quick to dry, easy to clean, and soft to the touch. It is called microfiber. Many sheets, towels, and fleece blankets made from it. This has been hugely profitable to them. They are the mother of invention of many things like this that get absolutely no publicity in the West.

It was such a pleasure to spend a week with them and learn so much. I wrote many people detailed and expressive Thank You cards and personally delivered them. It was all I had to give. This turned out to be a big deal. Seems most Americans never do anything to say thank you. A year later when they came back everyone remembered me and took even better care of me. My first acupuncture ever because I have taught to believe only in Western Medicine. Needles in the knees, the last ten years of arthritic degeneration gone.

This country is Taiwan. This Buddhism is Tzu Chi. It is the largest NGO in the Chinese speaking world. The master is Cheng Yen who formed the organization officially in 1966. She has the largest feminine following as a feminine spiritual leader. She leads with the Divine Feminine and she has shown its effectiveness.

When I saw Bashi's clip of cat woman and my epiphany I was told to tell this story. To make clear that the power Avalon has to help when it decides what it will bless. This is to show how simple this is every one can do it. If 3,000 people give 2 cents a day for an avalon group to start just a piece of a new conscious way of living---at the end of 8 months you would 4 dollars and 80 cents so as an extra blessing you add 20 cents and have five dollars. Three thousand people times five dollars is $15,000 dollars enough for the land down payment of many places of possibilities for a small group.

What this does is show that the possibility for doing is out there. It is the question of choosing the will to manifest anything. And like the people of Taiwan demonstrated once the blessing starts, it continues to grow when love is used to activate manifestation.

Namaste, one and all.

[9eagle9]

Your exploration of constitution would do nicely here.



I have really nothing to add as this is not my area of understanding. However, I am convinced that I would survive in the wild because I am extremely creative and resourceful. I have never found a problem I could not find a solution for. I know it would be very hard. But when I lost my right to drive, through no real fault of my own, did I curl up in a ball and sulk? Well, actually I did - for like three weeks. Then I wiped my nose, made some calls, put my tools in a bag (50lbs.?) and walked 6 miles to work (had no money left to take a bus). There I stayed until I finished and was payed. For the past three years that is how I live (except I take subway and buses).
Write4change, Arrowwind, Giovonni, Comeasyouare (and all others on this post) you inspire me!
Peace

[write4change]

The Story of the Road Not Taken


Sometimes we are so embedded in the journey we do not look up to the horizon and only watch the road we are on. We may have come to a fork and never have seen it. Only later when other things are revealed can we look back to The Road Not Taken. Such is the story of Ross Perot.

Most people think the story goes like this smart kid got an appointment to the Naval Academy did well. Got out and started the American dream team climb in IBM. Got out and used his insider's knowledge to become rich and get a government contract. Made mountains of money and had the ego to be the first to self fund a run on the American presidency. Did such a good job in the debates, he scared even himself and made wild accusations against the Bush family and withdrew. Then 30 days later, he returned and finished the campaign despite being called crazy by almost everyone.

This is the real story if you look at. This may have been the last time Americans were given a choice. They did not choose to see it. Or at that time most people still did not realize the depths to which corporations and the media had descended.

Ross Perot became an Eagle Scout in 18 months. He won the distinguished Eagle Scout Award. He went to the Naval Academy and introduced the honor system there based on his Eagle Scout experience. He was class president when he graduated in 1953 and a battalion commander. He was respected by both sides of the fence. He was loved by most of any staff who worked for him because his cardinal rule was take care of your men first.

Apparently, he was seen as such a rising star in the Navy that he was allowed to see the inside of the military industrial complex and he decided no. He fulfilled his committment and quietly resigned and then joined IBM sale's force. He sold his year's quota in just two weeks. He devised a plan for software and brought it before the company who turned it down in 1958.

He quit IBM and founded EDS --electronic data systems in 1962. He was turned down 77 times before securing his first business contract.. He finally obtained the contract for computerized medicare records. His company went public in 1968 and went from 16 to 160 dollars a share in two weeks. The company started expanding medical records for other companies the world over. During the Iranian revolution, two of his employees were kidnapped and jailed. He devised and hired mercenaries to carry out a plan of extraction. It successful implementation was made into a book by Ken Follet best seller On Wings of Eagles.

During all this government work and various world travels, Perot ran into the Bush family doings on more than one occasion. In the late 80s Perot began to speak out against the enormous budgets of the DOD. He began criticizing America in general. He made speeches asking people to look at Paris and Rome and London ancient cities that were clean and working while he said look at America where are cities are practically brand new and they are not working well. He also opposed the first Gulf War. It is known that he had a personal animosity for GHW Bush but no specifics as to why.

At the end of the first televised national debate, Perot was running 39%, to 31% Bush to 25% Clinton. Suddenly, he with draws and says it was because Bush threatened his family. That was his first direct initial response. And everybody went crazy calling this man crazy. He installs massive security around his family and business and then returns 30 days later. He adopts Patsy Cline's Crazy as his theme song and he talks to America the last night before the election in which he says essentially I am going this to give America a second chance at real change. It is said he said privately that he made sure GHW Bush did not win and the NWO was at least delayed.

All of Perot's charts and all of his points came exactly true with no exceptions. Things he talked about that would have become reality. We would have had an open and secure internet and we would have had secure safe way for the entire populace to vote. This he really believed in. He also knew from the records he assembled where all the bodies were buried in and by medicare which he could have identified and absolutely stopped the massive fraud.

Nothing about this man in any way was crazy over a lifetime of experience. He was a self made man from the middle middle class who knew and respected what that was all about. He had gotten high enough on his own merit to see glimpses of the cabal and he did not join but had the strength to stand on his own. Yet, people accepted the label crazy so easy. I still hear it today.

In some ways, his story is like Wade's only he did something that the cabal could not see coming because they do not respect creativity. Electronic records were seen as commodities not controlling factors like energy.

I tell this story because it will come again, about once a generation and we need people with the ability to see it. We label crazy or maybe ---post menopausal women---when the stuff revealed is really out of the paradigm. Look for the forks, look for the moments in time when you need to choose wisely when everything connects not just the impulse to action. We are usually told that we have the instinct to just fight or flight. But that is wrong -- there is also freeze. A way to suddenly be unseen to the predator and the extra time to plan a better escape.

[write4change]

Forty Years Exploring Few Have Gone Before

I recently was given a collection of the captain's logs from Star Trek--about 15 hours worth of viewing. There are at least three episodes from each Star Trek captain. I was surprised at how much I enjoyed them again and that I no longer gave any thought to Captain Janeway.

If you look at the series on continuum they are not just series of space exploration stories but a record of progressive thinking as part of humanity reaches out and grows spiritually. Captain Kirk is fighting for our place in space, and earning humanity's credibility. Captain Picard is not fighting for humanity but representing it as coming to understand and accept the immense of the universe and its diversity. Captain Janeway as returning from the journey of far out back to the validity of understanding and coming home. Captain Sisko is the diversity and the enigma; a really far out attempt at understanding and accepting spirituality as the essence of space. Finally, Captain Cochrane who lives forward but demonstrates looking back at how fragile coming to consensus exploring space and being released from the confines of both our own minds and other minds is.

Looking at this continuum of series clips, I can see their influence on my thinking--how subtle and yet how deep. When I was in my atheist period, I used to think if there is a god and he wanted to be known--he would just make his presence known. No big deal. Why all the mystery about his existence? Just yes I am here and here's how. That lasted about three years and got so deep that I got my NDE.

From then on like the entire series, there has just been a wealth of diversity and experiences of all kinds of things. Every kind of experience ever contemplated as manifestations of spirituality has been played out in this series. If you have ever seen a movie of multiple personalities, you cannot be diagnosed with having that affliction. The same could be said for spiritual experiences. No matter what I have experienced, I cannot know it --except within me-- as the truth because this body of knowledge has been played out as fiction and fantasy not as possibility.

Yet, the comfort, most displayed on Janeway's ship, of any experience being given credibility of belief and scientific consideration is in itself both self sustaining, and in a weird way self reinforcing. I find that power tenfold on this site. Real people engaging and seeking confirmation of what has been taboo most of my life. Art awakening to life. Art not reflecting life but illuminating it. Learning to live as practicing art. This is an old Buddhist concept of the 64 ways of art serving life.

Coming here has been a safe place to look deep. I have looked at people deeper here as individuals and as groups than anywhere else ever. And in a short period of time I have gone down deeper seeking the knowing within. And I come back to reflecting on Janeway's success. She gave orders to specific tactics but her strategies were done by forming alliances with her crew not as a group but individuals who she knew deeply and well by spending time with them alone. Yet, there was no play of one against the other or recognizing the significance of relationship she had with any one crew member. They were all just different and each difference had value. You saw the sum was much much more than any of its parts. This was also much less true with the male leadership.

I bring this to forefront of this group consciousness because when considering the Divine Feminine we must see how at least parts of her are now manifested. I have no problem dubbing myself a Crone and find it some what amusing. Yet, when told I am a post menopausal woman ---- I pause. I have since been asking myself and that is relevant to what?

[Arrowwind]

I have no problem dubbing myself a Crone and find it some what amusing. Yet, when told I am a post menopausal woman ---- I pause. I have since been asking myself and that is relevant to what?

I really have a different perspective on this term crone...

Post menapausal is associated with the inability to create... crone is, as far as I have been able to discern, just another name for the same thing.... women recently have been trying to change the meaning of "crone".... giving some kind of honor and dignity to it but I do not see it. When the word is use the mental image that goes with it is still impotent...regardless of the attempt to make it something else.

When I was a child I attended an Italian American Catholic Church... in those days such voluntary segragation existed, and maybe still does, the Irish Catholics in one chuch, the Italians in another.... anyway, there in church on Sunday you would see the old Italian Ladies all dressed in Black... everything black with a black shawl over the head, shriviled and humped in their pews, silent, mumbling their prayers, living with family, unemployed, and doing little but cooking and cleaning... and my mother called them Crones,,, as did most everyone else in the community.... once what had been vibrant and creative now shunked and in black.. mumbling on their rosary..

I seek a new word for the new woman that is upon us...I am reminded of what some black people do trying to make something good by using an old word and trying to give it a new power as some of them do with the word niggar.... and believe me, having lived in a south Dallas neighborhood, largely black, and the kids would come to our house and call themselves niggars... and my sons they called white niggars... meaning they were accepted, regardless of being white.

But still niggar is niggar and it is asociated with immense brutaltiy and hatred, and lynching and rape and slavery and that history can never be rewritten no matter how hard they try.

Now, not too long ago people did pretty well to survive to 50 or 60 but its is a new world now.

I will never be a crone, nor post menapausal. A new paradigm beggs for new adjectives and nouns. I will just be a human being... a female... a creative and abounding spiritual entity until the day I die, or at least until a better discriptive comes along..... perhaps Wise Woman... a title of honor forged by the years of successful survivial... and hence through that survivial have lived an experience that promotes endurance... and all endurance is a creative venture.

[write4change]

The End and The Pain of Beginning

Most people save the best for last but I have saved the worst because it parallels what feels like a world experience; fearing loosing that which matters most. I have already lost this once. Just before posting it disappeared so I must not have written it right. Telling about how it happened and why it happened is no longer the point. The point is what it made of me and how I lived thru it.

October 22, 1995, I received a phone call telling me my daughter had hung herself at 13 and 10 months at an all girls school in Toronto. I immediately broke into parts. One screaming, one internally saying things I still have great guilt over, one packing and packing all black, one chanting praying constantly to please take this cup and if not let me endure it well, and one just a living zombie. I stayed that way for most of ten years. The first year I could eat nothing and lived on tea and toast. I stopped listening to all music for ten years. I did not laugh for three years. I went few places because I felt the pain body I drug around would effect every body.

I did lots and lots of work with animals and I did a lot of listening to what were called Children of the Night. My daughter was an exquisite human being, a golden child if there is such a thing. She was much abused by bringing so much light with her. Many people do not realize how much pain there is to being part of the best and the brightest. For some it is never enough. For others it is way too much.

It is possible my daughter was murdered. None of the stories we were told fit. We were not contacted for 7 and half hours after the occurrence. In Toronto when I realized my daughter might have been murdered I ask my husband if it mattered. We were both essentially shattered. He said no. There have been a couple of times when he and I had a perfect mind meld. There was another little girl involved and she had been flown out before my daughter. And it was requested that I see her which I did. They wanted me to give her absolution. Her first words to me were" I hated Maxx from the moment I laid eyes on her." Not the first time this had happened. This little girl was also beautiful but as dark as Maxx was light. I gave her absolution knowing for sure if she did not murder my daughter she wanted to. The horror of such karma to one so young made me want to do nothing. I have no idea how this little girl would live with this.

Her gift to me was like the elf queen in Lord of the Rings. I had been tempted and I had passed. I knew I was a good person because the stuff of all this had zero value to me. I would rather leave my daughter's memory intact.

There is much judgment of a mother of a suicide. I both endured and withdrew from it. No one was more critical than myself. And part of that was loosing the place of being mother to a wonderkind. I had to be good to have a part in such a life. Instead of this was a gift from the universe to the universe.

Maxx told me at 11 she was a wandering soul. I thought it was terrible at the time and tried to talk her out of it and to see a mother's pain about it. No dice. She was 13 going on 30 and I often felt I should not have let her read the books I did. Like me from about 9, she read a book a day.

At 11, she read Avi's book called EVE. It is the story of a young woman like Maxx who is everything but brain dead from a car wreck and her father has her brain transferred into a Chimpanzee. Because she has worked with chimps all her life because of her father's research she was able to stand the freak out of the switch. She learns to use a computer on her arm to speak. She slowly becomes less human and more animal. As the world slowly destructs around her. She is taken to an island with other chimps to give them a chance to survive. First she taught all the chimps sign language but gradually she stops speaking that way. Before she stops communicating she learns people all over the earth are committing suicide and that life is seen as gray and hopeless. Eve removes all from of communication and her dying words are have nothing to do with man. Maxx had nightmares for weeks over this story and started sleeping with me thru it. She made me promise if anything happened to her to give all her organs for transplant which I did.

I have often thought of the difference between her childhood stories and mine. The Chocolate Wars are not cathartic, I wish she could have read Harry Potter instead of Enders Game.

For ten years, I was stuck. I could not forgive myself. I could not forgive the universe for taking her.

And somehow against impossible odds I found love again. And I got to experience many lives in many times and in many places and ultimately it is all there is. It does cure everything sooner or later. So when it comes again my time to be asked did you love and were you loved well? My answer will be yes.

I will take Arrowwind's advice and drop the crone identity. I told this story because I believe we are going to have to make many ground crews if we really want a new world and strength, speed, and skills will not be the end all and be all. There will also be memory and mothering and making a meld of the past with the new future. I want to stop up to the plate and be there because of Maxx and all those like her.

[9eagle9]

W4C asked me to copy this over from another thread. So here 'tis.....



Write4change said:
I do not know Bill in any way. I have had no interaction with him. I have gone to my books on MyersBriggs. Bill put this out there. And it fits with his profile. So if you want to understand Bill let us see how accurate this is and what he thinks about it.

Bill is an idealist under Jungian concepts. A Champion according David Kerisey. How do Champions view the world:

In the view of the Champions nothing occurs that is without significance, without profound meaning. And they don't want to miss any of it. ENFPs must experience all the events that affect people's lives, and then they are eager to relate the stories they've uncovered, hoping to disclose some truth about people and issues, and to motivate others with their powerful convictions. This strong drive to speak out on social events can make these Champions tireless in conversing with others, like fountains that bubble and splash, spilling over their own words to get it all out. Their enthusiasm is boundless and is often contagious, making them the most vivacious of all the types, and also inspiring others to join their cause.

As a variant of Plat's Idealists and Aristotle's Ethicists, the ENFPs are little different from other NFs in most respects. Like all the Idealists they are abstract in communicating and cooperative in implementing goals. they want to learn about the humanities, are preoccupied with morale, and work well with personnel. In orientation they are altruistic, credulous, mystical, situated on pathways, and with their eye on tomorrow. They base their self image on being seen empathic, benevolent, and authentic. Often inspired, they trust their intuition, yearn for romance, seek identity, prize recognition, and aspire to be a sage. Intellectually, they are prone to practice diplomacy far more than strategy, logistics, and especially tactics. Further, having a probing or exploring nature they ten to prefer the Advocate's informative role over the more schedule-minded Mentor's directive role. And because of their irrepressible expressiveness they are more eager to be a Champion of causes than a Healer of troubled souls. To visualize ENFP intellectual development consider the following their path: advocate, teacher, healer, counselor.

The are rather rare, say two or three percent of the population, but even more than the others they consider intense emotional experiences as being vital to a full life. Champions have a wide range and variety of emotions, and a great passion for novelty, and resist repeating experiences. Also, they can never quite shake the feeling that a part of themselves is split off, uninvolved in their experience. Thus, while they strive for emotional intensity, Champions often see themselves in some danger of losing touch with their real feelings.

These expressive Advocates are fiercely independent, repudiating any kind of subordination, either in themselves or in others in relation to them. Unfortunately, Champions constantly find themselves surrounded by others who look toward them for wisdom, inspiration, courage, and leadership, a dependency which , at times, weighs rather heavily on them. In the same vein, ENFPs strive toward a kind of spontaneous personal authenticity, and this intention always to be themselves is usually communicated nonverbally to others, who find it quite attractive.

In their probing way, Champions exercise a continuous scanning of the social environment, and no suspicious motive is likely to escape their attention. Far more than other NFs, they are the keen and penetrating observers of the people around them, and are capable of intense concentration on another individual. Their attention is never passive or casual, never wandering , but always directed. In fact, seeing life as an exciting drama pregnant with possibilities for both good and evil, Champions tent to be hypersensitive and hyperalert, always ready for emergencies.

Historical View of this Personality Type:

Hippocrates Phlegmatic
Aristotle Air --- cool
Jung Idealist
Watson/Crick Cytosine
Nomi/Besher Blood Type AB
Friedman Chemical Types Type B
Sperry Brain Types Right brain
Abravanel Body Types Gonadal
Mar facial types Round
Mendel Garland
Pavlov Canine Types Steadfast
Cultural Southern

What turns on this personality:

Cooperation Teamwork Peacefulness
Pleasant people Helping others Camaraderie
Volunteerism Loyalty Emotional support
Optimism Trust Relationships
Slow pace Kindness Advising
Feeling needed Smooth sailing Resolving conflicts
Communication Encouragement Friendliness

What turns this personality off:

Shouting Roadblocks to peace
Feeling shunned Lack of teamwork
Conflict Fast pace
Negative attitudes Competition
Isolation Impatience
Heavy Responsibilities Rigid Deadlines
Insensitivity Uncooperativeness
Pressure Rudeness

I have not gotten out my books in a long time. They have a whale of information in them. Now that i have reviewed them, I know why I am attracted to and feel comfortable with Bill and his judgment. And I would bet that Kerry is the exact opposite of all these traits and needs. A relationship of exact opposites is very intense and you learn a lot from them but when they are done; they are over. Bill's personality is tuned to the learning experience, bless and let go.

[9eagle9]

I wonder if people assume roles out of false expectations of others or ...to feel safe. Or perhaps not knowing who they are so its better to grab any suitable role because its available.

Some of my clients want to know the secret of how I stay young looking. Because I was always told I was immature and irresponsible I never had a chance to believe I was growing up.


****************

I really have a different perspective on this term crone...

Post menapausal is associated with the inability to create... crone is, as far as I have been able to discern, just another name for the same thing.... women recently have been trying to change the meaning of "crone".... giving some kind of honor and dignity to it but I do not see it. When the word is use the mental image that goes with it is still impotent...regardless of the attempt to make it something else.

When I was a child I attended an Italian American Catholic Church... in those days such voluntary segragation existed, and maybe still does, the Irish Catholics in one chuch, the Italians in another.... anyway, there in church on Sunday you would see the old Italian Ladies all dressed in Black... everything black with a black shawl over the head, shriviled and humped in their pews, silent, mumbling their prayers, living with family, unemployed, and doing little but cooking and cleaning... and my mother called them Crones,,, as did most everyone else in the community.... once what had been vibrant and creative now shunked and in black.. mumbling on their rosary..

I seek a new word for the new woman that is upon us...I am reminded of what some black people do trying to make something good by using an old word and trying to give it a new power as some of them do with the word niggar.... and believe me, having lived in a south Dallas neighborhood, largely black, and the kids would come to our house and call themselves niggars... and my sons they called white niggars... meaning they were accepted, regardless of being white.

But still niggar is niggar and it is asociated with immense brutaltiy and hatred, and lynching and rape and slavery and that history can never be rewritten no matter how hard they try.

Now, not too long ago people did pretty well to survive to 50 or 60 but its is a new world now.

I will never be a crone, nor post menapausal. A new paradigm beggs for new adjectives and nouns. I will just be a human being... a female... a creative and abounding spiritual entity until the day I die, or at least until a better discriptive comes along..... perhaps Wise Woman... a title of honor forged by the years of successful survivial... and hence through that survivial have lived an experience that promotes endurance... and all endurance is a creative venture.



[/QUOTE]

[TimelessDimensions]

These are thoughts in considering the Zeitgeist movement. I felt it was too long for a comment and would not be seen by those who were interested in just the concepts of cooperative living.

There has never been a time when I have not been fascinated by the idea of cooperative living. I began mine with reading Little Women and Little Men which portrays it as a sort of extended family experience. When I was told by a teacher that Alcott's father was a commune leader under the auspices of Ralph Waldo Emerson. I started my research.

I still carry a small book of Emerson around in my purse. It fits in the palm of my hand and I have always vibrated with his vision as had my grandparents who quoted him all the time. How could someone so wise and so learned combined with other like minded people fail?

In the late 60s and early 70s in the Northern California area I joined several. Never for longer than 60 days. Mostly little ones of sharing work and expenses. Some partial with skills and food. And one big one for a final excruciating experience.

What I believe is true of all of them for failing even the old ones is the ongoing fight for leadership. There is always this drive for top down hierarchal power. My personal experience was that the women do all the work and the men do all the talking. The more educated the men the more complicated the simplest project.

I once watched 4 men and a major pick up truck with chains spend most of an entire day trying to remove a two foot in diameter tree stump. They trashed the yard, created a mud mess, repeatedly broke the chains, and practically destroyed the bumper and the pickup. This place at this time had a $35,000 Caterpillar like tractor. At the end of the day an older Hispanic woman wove the chains around the stump got on the tractor and pulled out the stump in about 5 minutes.

The men had a great time. They bond doing things side by side. (Women bond talking face to face.) Had they been successful, this would have been one of their war stories for all time. How I Beat the Tree Stump.

Emerson provided the money for the project. He did not want to live and work there. He did want it to be self sufficient. Granted work then was continuous and hard. Alcott's father if you read through the lines wanted to be the on site supervisor,do all of the talking and none of the work. The others wanted total equality and thus, everything that needed doing was an argument. Self sufficiency never occurred. Emerson got fed up and refused to supply any more money and everyone just left. This is typical of most small communes.

I lived in one in the north beach area of San Francisco where it was a bunch of young well paid entrance level professionals in the 70s who wanted to live in luxury and its perks and still save money. Getting in one of the old Victorian type town houses with six bedrooms and three baths, library, music room, and garden walk able to a lot of cool places, But there was never a willingness to spend the money for a really good housekeeper. The guys were really irresponsible. They wanted to eat but not really cook or clean. They always had mothers or maids to pick up after them and with women on the scene, it felt just like home. Dividing up chores by the week or month was always a stress scene. There was huge selfishness on the part of the guys who ate far more and resented paying a fair share for common food. The guys wanted their money to bond with other guys and scoring other women. The women wanted the money so they could put a down payment on their own home. So no matter how good it looked, the stress of actual living there undid the place. The communal pot (taxes) was always to be starved but the services and benefits desired (civilization) were most prevalent to those who had the balls to just take it. Women at that time were low on audacity levels.

In American history, the Utopian movements that had any kind of longevity were usually tied together in a common religious belief; like the shakers and the Amish. The Amish succeeded because the big farms remained private property worked by extended families with right of inheritance. But it is not all peace and love. James Mitchner's work The Novel tells the story of two Amish brothers who fought for 40 years since the day of their father's death til one of their own. Their fight destroyed families and communities. Only at the end of the book do you find out what they were fighting about because no one but the brothers really knew. They had a fight over their father's funeral as to whether or not it was permitted by their laws to wear suspenders. It comes as stunning revelation at the end of this book. You are amazed at the stupidity that has just been displayed and then you remember Einstein's quote about the infinite stupidity of mankind. This is hard to deal with in commune's without a huge bond of commitment.

At Stanford, I belonged to a group of young people who were all attached to the big faculty student relationships of the social science department. For a couple of years, these people did cooperative shopping when there was no thought of an internet. What we did was meet every three months as one big group for a whole day of everybody bring something festival and we tested food products and arranged to buy them direct. Because of the nature of California especially then you could drive to another totally different climate in one hour or so. Some of us went to wineries and bought wine for three months for 50 people. Some of us bought whole wheels of Jarlsberg cheese. Bought live pigs, chickens, sheep at from the farmers. Had him arrange to deliver them to local butchers. Bought extra and gave them to the butcher for butchering ours. Divided everything up among us that was staples. Alternated small groups going to farmers market on a weekly basis--they did not come to the cities then. Sharing the tasks.

My closest friends of my life were 4 other single mothers with children. Boy, were we outsiders then. We were all going to nursing school with really tuff hours. Had Friday afternoons off and we went from house to house cleaning each one. Trust me, this is an intimate experience. One would do the laundry, one the dusting and vacuuming. One cleaning and cooking in the kitchen and one in the yard. We did a lot of screaming, crying, cursing, and laughing while we did it. We finished up at the pizza parlor. Both a cleansing and energizing ritual. As far as I know this broke down only when we all graduated and had to move on. It was time consuming in some ways but I would do all this again if I found other people willing to do the same. That memory feels exactly like another dimension in time.

1972 was Stanford's last graduating nursing class. They shut it down during the height of the nursing shortage. 1968 was the implementation of medicare. Cal poly also shut down. That could be another diary.

The huge failure was Synanon. A take over of one city block manufacturing center on Army Steet in the Mission District of San Franciso. About three hundred people living together. Equal division of addicts, thugs, and felons with nuns, young business men and women, some older really wealthy patrons. Playing The Game which it was really called. To join you gave over your paycheck and got colored tokens to use in the communal store and cafeteria. You must weekly play the game at least once of shouting and cursing the truth at one another. Dietrich's vision was top down hierarchal; he would take all the money and gifts but really gave nothing back. It was his power trip. Came down almost at once when sex became a male right.

The biggest known historical failure is almost never taught. I began my education as an American History Major. I had 56 undergraduate semester units. It was a big surprise to me that I almost knew nothing about real history and have spent a lifetime discovering. To this day, I am amazed at how much is known in archeology that is still not taught but is there in front of our faces. Love the interview of the guy with all the small ancient artifacts no one wants to see or explain. (I am bad with names because of my brain injury. What sticks with me is deeply embedded knowledge. I was lucky to have an extensive education 30 years ago. I can build on it. The knowledge weaves but the names don't.)

The big historical failure was the Owens experiment. Owens was a wealthy owner, manufacturer, financier from England who bought a whole town outside of Philadelphia. The people he bought from all moved west. He obtained a complete town with stores, churches, schools, bookbinding, black smith, animals, livestock, 3,000 acres of productive land. He brought over ship loads of English people who needed a new start. These people had skills and experience. It was a complete failure in that no one really wanted to work in what they perceived to have no real stake in. Once here, they would rather go out to the frontier and cut their own homestead. The one thing Owen would not give up was owning the land so he could sell and get his money back.

Ironically, this has been repeated in Israel. The kibbutz's only survived with huge state subsidies. The third generation of those born on this land shared in this manner have been democratically slowly unwinding the legal ties that bind. There is a documentary about them. What sticks in my mind is a woman at 40 who is so pleased to at last own her own car. The kibbutz's were democratically created and democratically destroyed.

What is interesting about discussions in the Zeitgeist movement is the willingness to talk about allowing the 80% to coast on the 20%. There is recognition that about 20% of the population is driven to be productive or needs to work no matter what the others are doing. Zeitgeist actually says let them have their TV and games, leave them alone, and let them eat themselves to death. They believe like attracts like and that people choosing a looser lifestyle is dead end, serves no purpose, and thus will die a natural death. In such a situation they believe there is no desire to have children because there is no need for such interaction. These are people who do not want to be bothered by anything. These discussions are not written but orally explored as worse case scenarios.

The one group I know who succeeded was Murietta Hot Springs. These people formed a corporation and held shares according to the power to participate. The corporation owned the land. The share holders all had to have some money for the down payment and some skills that contributed to the community. The community was a non-profit retreat where people came to experience again living without TVS and Phones and radios. Regular schedules of interacting with nature and cleansing their bodies and minds. The share holders were also the employees of the corporation each having jobs contributing to the experience. All vegan cooking and teaching vegan cooking. Communal meals. Ritual using of the spas. Different kinds of body work and spiritual experience. Small homes or multifamily homes and at least in the beginning no children. No advertising. Word of mouth. In thing for celebrities to do. Highly successful for 30 years. Sold to another corporation of private resorts with each share holder receiving at least a million.

The last aspect of coming to community I tried was with my husband and other quite successful middle age adults. We joined Scott Peck of the Road Less Traveled community foundation. He began leading and training people how to come to community. Hundred's of thousands were poured into it. Another failure for the exact same reason. I never attended a weekend session where we did not spend the first half with five males jocking for leadership positions. It was truly a sophisticated form of mental masturbation. As far as I can see, we all pretended to have come to community so we could all get back to our "normal" lives.

This is my first thread. I have no idea about the rightness or the wrongness of it. I have the skin of an alligator and will take all comments as constructive criticism. This is my first chance to see how or if people will respond.

Part of my reason for coming here is to make decisions about how to take action. I believe the issue of manifesting money is not difficult if done in the right way, at the right time, for the right reasons. I think I could begin again if we were not having a physical calamity. That is what I am really trying to determine. It is logical if you knew the earth was going semi crack up--- to blow as much up as possible first. Only those who have the gold and something gold holders want survive. If this has happened before, they always choose wrong.

I have already wasted a million plus dollars trying to do it my way. Like Owens and a failure for the same reason. This time I lack money but still have the skills and knowledge it would take to survive. I think groups of around 36 could go off to some places and make it. I think like minded people could survive in the Postman scenario but not in Mad Maxx which will go back to the stone age.

If I get some response here, I would set up a scenario type game to play based on a reality I knew of.

Those of you who got this far, have my appreciation.

The key factor that makes it work is that there must be like minded people with a shared philosophy on the meaning of life. Each member must be at a certain level of awareness and want to practice spirituality and meditation to keep merging closer and closer with the infinite.

Tribal communites lived cooperatively without money or barter for at least 100,000 years on this planet. They all shared a common spiritual philosophy that 1. All things in the Universe are One, 2. Meditation is the key to unity with the Universe, 3. We must live in harmony with all things as all things are a part of you and you are a part of all things, 4. The meaning of life is to be one in harmony with the universe, 5. A seeking to understand the spirit world / the dream world / the Aluna, 6. A seeking to understand and communicate with the spirits of each animal and plant, and other common shared beliefs... I'm sure other Avalonians can offer further perennial philosophies..

So I draw the conclusion that any cooperative community will only work if all members of that community have the same philosophy on the meaning of life, a common goal as a community of people - "what are we doing? and why are we doing it?". One example could be: "The meaning of life is to be one with the Universe through understanding the spirituality within each and every thing, our goal is to feel more and more connected to everything, growing our awareness and experiencing life in an ever-expanding spectrum of vibrating energy". Two spiritual tools must be taught - 1. Meditation on nothingness to connect with the Infinite Unity, 2. Meditation on existence / "things" to connect with the Infinite within each and every-"thing".

(In contrast, any monetary system has the shared meaning of life: "To maximize accumulation of your own material comforts while becoming more and more separated [seemingly independent] from other people and the natural environment, and then waiting to die..")

How do you all feel about my thoughts?

[write4change]

They are essentially right on. The Native American tribes of North America on a whole saw their spirituality expressed as protecting the Great Spirit that they saw in everything. They were connected to each other by tribal ritual and blood ties. Thus, they lived in harmony with their environment and did not develop materialism as the west as known it. They also had very little mental illness. Also natural population control, you don't have families of dozens when living in a 16 foot Teepee. You also don't want to keep breaking off into competive branches. They, like Oceania, had a stable environment in harmony with nature for 1000s of years. Only contact with white men changed that. Easter Island is some strange exception.

[Come As You Are]

Hi there 9eagle9

I really get what you have going on! In a way, I have been experiencing the same or similar stuff here in my little posi in Oz. I have "an agreement with the bank" shall we say, and I pay an affordable mortgage on a gorgeous little 5 acre farm. For a while, I was hung up on how to make it productive and start to pay for itself. Nothing much happened, and I just paid the bills. Then, I got shafted out of a good paying job by the local PTB, probably because I am a gutsy worker, who did things somewhat differently. Anyway, for a while, I was a mess. Really went through a personal wringer and worried myself silly. Eventually, I snapped out of my illusory misery guts state, and got my old self back. It took some pain, but it was worth it!
Now, since I've been working on things that are really important to me, and trusting more, things are starting to rock again. Recently, a local fellow moved into the workshop/ shed, he's a welder, a real gentleman and thinker, and the other night, over a few beers, we really connected, and recognised that we are "on the same wavelength". That was really cool.
We are gonna start exploring the mountains nearby for some deep tunnels and old mines which might prove really important some day. We both watched the skies that night, and what do you know, out came the lights!!
Happy soil improving!! Have you tried buying up or otherwise obtaining old, broken down, second or third cut lucerne hay (large bales are best) that has seeds in it, I think you might call it Alfalfa. It is excellent perennial fodder and Nitrogen fixing, as well as superb compost. Once it gets established, it really starts to improve things.
All the best


I currently have about 5 acres here with access to additional six hundred across the road. I dont' own the place and I won't get a mortgage or a contract on it since you can't own anything in Michigan anyway. Not real property anyway. But for 600 a month on 5k sq feet plus acreage my mortgage expense would far exceed my rent. I really stay in the place of "if I dont' own it, it can't be taken from me" There's a 2,500 sq work shop attached. . A real man cave that I hoped that someone would like to utilize for some sustainability projects. I had let the workshop to a couple different yahoo's who had come to do spirituality and sustainability type work, and had to ask them to leave shortly after as they were just out of control needy, disruptive, intrusion, destructive. Parasites. What is interesting is that once I finally let go of how I thought that workshop needed to be, someone came along who understood community. Young man, just 25 and he wasn't involved in spiritual or sustainability work but he understands how energy works even if not consciously. He absolutely LOVE S that shop, he is so proud of it I have to laugh. He contributes, I help him out with his work, he does repairs around here (built my hens not just a coop but a real deluxe chick de coupe inspite of the fact he HATES my chickens) really throws himself into the whole concept. HE's also fulfilled a number of problemic things I was having which was access to reasonable top soil, manure mixes , and means of busting up some of the uncared for depleted soil here.

[Come As You Are]

I find that I tend to read the threads from last to first sometimes. It gives me a different perspective I guess, and with the threads that I find most interesting and helpful and alive, it doesn't seem to matter. So much beautiful and powerful stuff here. Thank you all.

[9eagle9]

@TimelessDimension

The key factor that makes it work is that there must be like minded people with a shared philosophy on the meaning of life. Each member must be at a certain level of awareness and want to practice spirituality and meditation to keep merging closer and closer with the infinite.

I have been approached a few times about having a retreat of some sorts. I never could get around an idea that impassioned me. If I don't feel enthused about something I can't really bring an energy to it. Your remark has sparked an idea for me...have a week long or ten day retreat on communal living. Emphasising the infinite instead of laborious things. Maybe even in three part series...(laff) This may break the chain of co dependency that people attempt to fall into with me, give them an inner task, make them entirely responsible not only for themselves but for each other and ... needs development. Going to have to work in how to get an equal balance of mind, body and spirit. Have to put me noggin to that but thanks for the inspiration.

I am also thinking since they'll be in my grasp as it were (he he *evil cackle*) that some ground rules be laid in terms of 'don't approach anything in an old paradigam by the book way' but to let spirit, the inner self do the work for you. The one rule, instead of being dependent on mind and body start putting inner self-higher self to work. Get out of thinking mode and start going into knowing mode.

So I draw the conclusion that any cooperative community will only work if all members of that community have the same philosophy on the meaning of life, a common goal as a community of people - "what are we doing? and why are we doing it?".

This has been my biggest land mind finding out people are wanting what they don't want. Or wanting somethign that wont' be given to them because it doesn't exist. People would want me to teach them how to connect . With the vast array of psychic utter trash and bollocks out there everyone has such a distorted standard they are trying to leave up that doesn't exist in trying to capture their intuition enough to be productive. This is what they want to be taught, that standard. I won't teach it, their own inner self has a way of doing things. The don't want to suspend that belief system yet keep urging me to teach them to connect, even though they tell me they cant' believe their spirit has more power than this reality. No no no but teach me anyway. I can't and for them to keep asking me to give them what they dont' want is just plain crazy making ****. And it did it drove me crazy till I finally just holed up here in the woods to get myself sorted out.

How does one spirit to spreak. Open ones mouth and speak. (or pray)

This is not a satisfactory answer. People want bells and whistles and mystery and I have none to provide for them. I find it awe inspiring to have spiritual manifestation but not particularly mysterious.

Maybe in a communal type setting and with all hands on deck we can make that mutually supportive agreement not to fall into those mind traps.

thanks for the inspiration.

[write4change]

And also with you. When the twist first hit the scene there was a lot of sorting. I once thought I could teach anyone to dance. I think there is choice to feel the rhythm but maybe not. What I did learn is that if you can't feel the rhythm for what ever reason you can't dance. Meanwhile I have seen some deaf people do some incredible dancing.

[write4change]

a cheeky closing

[write4change]

having computer problems and I think a gremlin lives in mine; it does its own thing.


THIS IS MY CHEEKY CLOSING

By that I acknowledge the dead silence I received when after just ten days of being here I gave an analysis of Bill Ryan and here I am coming back to it. (Post 139 on this thread.) This is because I decided that everything that really mattered about me would stay on one thread for now. And my looking deeply at Bill and Avalon are part of that.

However, I got here, I believe that I was invited by the universe; just as I believe that Bill is inspired by the universe to do what he is doing. It is my place and any thinking spiritual being to look at his work, our work, and my work and ask if it is done with the right intention and with full integrity of that intention. Not to do so is to choose not to make conscious choices---why we are in the state as a planet we are. Some our fault and some not. We now have the awareness to choose that or not also.

Bill comes from that place of inspiration and integrity because by putting out that he had studied Myers Briggs, and taught group consensus building and revealed the very type he is --- he invited that it be looked at the quality of his performance. Yesterday, I listened one more time to a radio interview of his prior to the Charles material. I still have seen no inconsistency with the Champion archetype that Bill epitomizes. I was getting depressed with my own performance and his writing about the progress of groups through forming, storming, norming, and performing -- I found quite impressive. So I have continued Storming around.

I have also respected the way that he has terminated or locked threads, memberships, and unsolicited proposals. I agree with him 100% of the perils of Charity here and now for such a small group. I have participated in this on much larger groups. I took in a homeless person from the site only to find that nothing they represented on the site was true to my perception. I said nothing about it on the site because trust issues on bad enough as it is and I am a big girl who can handle my own.

I was also impressed with the fact the Bill currently owns no home and no car. He is essentially living for doing this work. There is no higher commitment. I see him as giving a safe place for all information to unfold. I see him weighing, sifting, and selecting; always taking responsibility for doing the best for the most that can be done at that time. His information process I find invaluable. I do not see him as choosing anything lightly or easily. I am in alignment with him on everything but choosing with respect to the 2012 event. And that is okay.

In looking deeply at the site and how it functions--right now it is in a huge state of flux. Almost 40% of the membership are so called Newbies of which I am one. We are a huge energy and I think for the positive. On a whole we have been here only a month or less. I have accomplished making a lot of personal decisions that often surprise me. With the new pole, I see the same reflection almost all over the world---a fifty fifty divide on almost everything. Here I think the basis of that divide is will there be a physical event or not.

I have chosen yes. I could try and connect more dots for this but it is everyone's choice by their own consciousness not to be manipulated by others. At the same time when the time comes, there should be no regrets over the choice.

My manifestation of that choice is this thread. Like others have expressed, I am not waiting to be chosen--I am choosing. Part of that choice was not to go underground if I could, not to go with big targeted groups that require big resources, and not to go with strangers. I have put this thread up with everything that is important about me so that like can attract like.

I think everyone at Avalon should consider starting a thread about themselves. They like me will still learn alot about themselves in the process. They will change their minds about stuff etc. Tell your favorite jokes, movies, art, experiences, skills, etc. Think of this as creating what you would remember and be remembered for if everyone winds up saying I have no medicine for you. And the grace and compassion for those to whom you might say the same.

I do not want to be part of the 18. Realistically, I am too old for what they seem to have in mind. Fertile women LOL And regardless of whatever Bill has come to feel about Charles I cannot trust him. Distractions is what the PTB are known for and what they do best. Charles is remarkable at spending an enormous amount of time instead of cutting to the chase of the little time we have left. My final consideration is if the 2012 was a distraction itself; they have spent enormous time and money covering it up and digging deep into the planet. The missing trillions from the Pentagon are all underground. The perfect justification is Charles saying look at the truck drivers who made all this money they know is going somewhere top secret and they don't care what that represents--give me a pay check. So I don't deal with all the Charles stuff. I look for people in the same boat I am who bring the same understanding. I hold my hand out to be known because what we need to do cannot be done with strangers.

So except for being late I have kept my word. I said what I mean and I mean what I say and it is all here. I leave for two weeks to write to completion. I think there is a core group here of about 25 people. I would like to see people talking about what comes next if there is to be a next. When I come back if nothing has happened I will revive the thread and talk about what I am going to do next.

For those of you that have read all this, there is no more appreciation I could ask from you and I thank you for your patience and indulgence.

Namaste, Jai

[Arrowwind]

So I draw the conclusion that any cooperative community will only work if all members of that community have the same philosophy on the meaning of life, a common goal as a community of people - "what are we doing? and why are we doing it?".

This has been my biggest land mind finding out people are wanting what they don't want. Or wanting somethign that wont' be given to them because it doesn't exist. People would want me to teach them how to connect . With the vast array of psychic utter trash and bollocks out there everyone has such a distorted standard they are trying to leave up that doesn't exist in trying to capture their intuition enough to be productive. This is what they want to be taught, that standard. I won't teach it, their own inner self has a way of doing things. The don't want to suspend that belief system yet keep urging me to teach them to connect, even though they tell me they cant' believe their spirit has more power than this reality. No no no but teach me anyway. I can't and for them to keep asking me to give them what they dont' want is just plain crazy making ****. And it did it drove me crazy till I finally just holed up here in the woods to get myself sorted out.

How does one spirit to spreak. Open ones mouth and speak. (or pray)

This is not a satisfactory answer. People want bells and whistles and mystery and I have none to provide for them. I find it awe inspiring to have spiritual manifestation but not particularly mysterious.

Maybe in a communal type setting and with all hands on deck we can make that mutually supportive agreement not to fall into those mind traps.

thanks for the inspiration.


I find your reflection quite interesting.
To me, people are seeking ceremony and a context for self developement and they need to be educated to the fact that that is all any one person can provide them. Perhaps you are not a ceremonial leader, I don't know. But generally one can not spiritually turn on an other person... they must do their own work and they must be educated to that fact..
No one one can get someone else to "connect". But they can provide the context for another within which to connect... this is the work of a ceremonial leader... of which whom may or may not be developed shamans.

Each individual has their own responsibility to connect... and this is what needs to be taught them the most...
connection does not really need a shaman, or a ceremoney.. It only requires intent... perhaps you are not drawing in the quality of students you deserve.

An in a previous post someone stated that you must meditate... again... I so disagree. conection does not requrie meditaion to connect to the great universal "what ever"... your mere being on this planet is all that is requried along with intent. You are already connected and all that is requried is seeing that. I am not nothingness inside and the great universe is not nothingness within itself... it is everything, it is totality. There is little to no mention that Native Americans meditated... but they did move with shamanic intent and traveled though their own visualiations or even the beat of the drum, they learned to read nature... they did not go into nothingness, they went into other realtiies where the ancestors dwell or other spirit beings could communicate. This ingrained belief system from birth was sufficient to do the work.. a modern person need only adapt the belief system of the possiblity and form it with intent.

I have studied with a teacher a fair amount... far more than most people. What I learned I learned on my own. They only helped me to create a context for learning by teaching form and coreography of energy... that is ever clear to me. If people what to be pushed into a connection the best way is though guided plant medicine.

write4change - I don't know what your resources are but have you ever considered just going out there and starting on your own? You know that idea "If you build it they will come"

Design and develop the plan on your own then start calling in with intent...

In my opinion, and I certainly could be wrong, time is growing short... I have felt pressed to develop our project and to be ready for those who will come when the time comes.. If it never happens then I have a nice place to live, if it happens then I am ready.. I am ready for whatever the world presents... and what will be will be. This is how my friend who lives near me is also handling it... she also takes in students, to teach how to use the land, raise animals, and of course her greatest gift in my opinion, her gift of ceremony. She is very poor, they work hard, and when the time comes people will come... they already come to her for her gift of ceremony, and though many years of contacts she has developed... she sees it in her vision and she will be ready to some extent... certainly more than most.

[9eagle9]

Yeah I have been and may one day return to the role of ceremonial leader. I came from the view of you are here to connect up and participate in ceremony as community experience, let the ceremony unite you. People tended to want to just observe it which sort of defeated the whole purpose. I began to gauge those sorts of ceremonies by how my fire started. It would speak to me by being balky and saying "It's going to be one of those sorts of events". I have to always defer to the fire's wishes no matter what anyone else thinks.

You are correct we can't give anyone anything nor is it necessary. Its already there if they just choose to dig it out. I can only provide an avenue, a finger to point, but they have to walk the path and do the work.

New Age thought has given us the standard that everything should be light, happy and easy. Spiritual work can sometimes be very hard, depressing, anger generating at odds with the whole "everyday is supposed to be love and light". It can be but the rough patches in side have to be addressed not avoided. I think when we ask people to do work they view it at being at odds with spirituality.

Yeah if we could give people willingness we would...if only it were that easy. I'd bottle it. I have people admit to me "I only want to hear what I want to hear which is good things. Like fables."



I feel like time is growing short too. Not only that I felt as of spring of last year that it had run out for some. Not due to a great" pick and choose, playing favorites" energy but more like the individual choices had been made. A very defined shift in energy. And in making those choices some doors had been shut. Not sure what that means entirely . I don't want to sound elitist but somehow it felt like the wheat had fallen from the chaff in some fashion ...whatever it means. Then again I shouldn't judge myself for elitism I had nothing to do with the choices that people made.

[Arrowwind]

9eagle9, This is exactly the dilemma that teachers over the ages have gone through. It is best to tell someone as they enter a path that the work is tough and especially if they choose a Native American like path or Shamanistic one there is goveling in the dirt to do on many levels.. that right there, will separate the wheat from the chaff...

like try laying in a whole you dug yourself for a night or two, alone, out in the woods somewhere, to find and face your fears.
Suddenly a group of twenty is reduce to 2 or 3.

There has been an energy shift I perceive also... but I cannot define it exactly... we here have chosen our course and we will go through it come hell or high water... but other parts of us have split off to create in other directions.... This has been prophesized... and it has happended I think.. it is a mutlidimensional event. You are here,, but you are there also. The one over there is not aware of the one here and visa versa. I think it has occured on a planetary scale. Planet earth and her children are replicating themselves out into the infinate, each on a slightly different trail... This is what I have put together from what I have been told.. I do not perceive my other selves... but I know where split offs have been made in my past as an individual replicating consciousness, but this is a planetary event now... mother earth is doing it with her children on board following suit.

Infinity is an amazing experience.... its all in the Seth Material... but the Shamanis Lodges of Turtle Island have held the knowledge for a long time and that teaching came to me about 20 years ago, predicted for about this time frame.

Could this be hitting on some of what you sense?

[Hughe]

Here is my version:

The Portable free energy device that generates sufficient electricity - it can be stacked for high demands. This is a must-have element of the society I describe here on.

Simple natural laws - criminals will be punished what they do for others. There is no police nor judges / lawyers. Independent investigators, warriors, counselors would handle them.

Four or five house are forming of a bubble, which supports everything for independence living: resources, food, labors, method of transportation, etc. It has residential areas based on tradition houses - full-family has a bigger building, singles have smaller buildings.

One indoor garden to support vegetables year around for them.
A small farm for meat and process the waste of food: chickens, pigs can process the left over of food pretty much.

A town should have 20 - 30 bubbles. A town can be specialized for bigger community. For example, a medical town would provide extensive health care service / research for serious patients who transported there with serious illness from other towns. A town to build a big machine - spaceship, heavy equipments.

Each members of a bubble provides 20 to 25 hours of labor per week to produce food, maintenance duties for their bubble. Other times they do whatever they like or have passion as volunteer or professionals in town / bigger community. An adult who likes to teach can work as a teacher in town / community schools.

An adult should have a living quarter with privacy: it shouldn't be spacious and waste of a lot of materials but under the guide line of building standards - practical, recycle material, enough space. He/she can configure or change interior design and stuff.

Each adult is provided a free transportation - a flying car (near ground) or walking machine. It takes off and glide 2 ft or 3 ft over ground for safety reason. Conventional cars would be obsolete. All method of transportation is flight. Why? The road base of transportation is complete junk IMHO.

Communication and power transmission are wireless.
In case of disaster in an area, surrounding towns will be able to send power to the towns till they are fully back up. Emergency / Rescue teams from other towns will go there with own equipment and supplies for helping them.

Town member can travel / visit other towns. A person drive own car or take a transporter to go other place. Each town and individuals communicate with people around world through free Internet. ;) If an adult want to relocate to other country, the adult check out Wanted database and find candidates.

How to handle a big event?
Let's see there are ten thousands of music lovers: fans and musicians. A festival on a beach. Once the event management team is formed on the net, it will collect exact number of guests and determine resources for big stage building and it allocates materials. For example, the stage needs one thousands pieces of board, it will select 1,000 thousands of guests who can bring it with them on the way.

The flying car engine / portable free energy devices will be connected to series / parallel for providing power of the event.

[giovonni]

From write4right (Jai)

"And somehow against impossible odds I found love again. And I got to experience many lives in many times and in many places and ultimately it is all there is. It does cure everything sooner or later. So when it comes again my time to be asked did you love and were you loved well? My answer will be yes."

Thank you for starting this thread; i am still taking it all in...and will probably be back often...just to check in with all that has/is being shared here.

This is for you ~ Jai
Note, i was not at the ranch during this occasion, but a close friend of mine was ~ who witnessed much of these events...
As James tells it ~ he asked Kahn, a Master from Japan who lives in a cave, to come and work together (with James) and connect with the off-worlders. This visit and workshop event took place last May (2010). The photo was taken in the little orchard behind the guest house on the Eceti Ranch ~ by Kahn on a late Saturday/Sunday morning sequence. He also took the photos of Kwan Yin, along with Cazekiel and other the Masters in the video, with a cel phone, no flash.



http://static-2.socialgo.com/cache/139432/image/3010.jpg

THE CAT PEOPLE FROM SIRIUS

...this Awareness indicates that the entities you refer to as incarnate of
the cat people tend to have a certain kind of grace, and in many cases
have reincarnated in physical form numerous times, but their background
may reach back into these cultures that come from Sirius.
channeled by Passionate Lion

Sirius - Eye In The Sky
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-Cen0DyZeo&feature=related

[9eagle9]

Good stuff Hughe, and does not sound like it needs to be located in a strictly rural area. Like a pre existensting town-scape could provide space. A bit more intrepid technologically speaking, I keep making the assumption that we'll have no power and pretty much leave most areas of technology undeveloped. Not that I'm biased about technology (it hates me, I don't hate it ..ha ha ) . Unfortunately as it stands electricity isn't a power source, it has to be generated.

I am curious about your bubbles. Like Geodesic domes? Could you explain further?



Here is my version:

The Portable free energy device that generates sufficient electricity - it can be stacked for high demands. This is a must-have element of the society I describe here on.

Simple natural laws - criminals will be punished what they do for others. There is no police nor judges / lawyers. Independent investigators, warriors, counselors would handle them.

Four or five house are forming of a bubble, which supports everything for independence living: resources, food, labors, method of transportation, etc. It has residential areas based on tradition houses - full-family has a bigger building, singles have smaller buildings.

One indoor garden to support vegetables year around for them.
A small farm for meat and process the waste of food: chickens, pigs can process the left over of food pretty much.

A town should have 20 - 30 bubbles. A town can be specialized for bigger community. For example, a medical town would provide extensive health care service / research for serious patients who transported there with serious illness from other towns. A town to build a big machine - spaceship, heavy equipments.

Each members of a bubble provides 20 to 25 hours of labor per week to produce food, maintenance duties for their bubble. Other times they do whatever they like or have passion as volunteer or professionals in town / bigger community. An adult who likes to teach can work as a teacher in town / community schools.

An adult should have a living quarter with privacy: it shouldn't be spacious and waste of a lot of materials but under the guide line of building standards - practical, recycle material, enough space. He/she can configure or change interior design and stuff.

Each adult is provided a free transportation - a flying car (near ground) or walking machine. It takes off and glide 2 ft or 3 ft over ground for safety reason. Conventional cars would be obsolete. All method of transportation is flight. Why? The road base of transportation is complete junk IMHO.

Communication and power transmission are wireless.
In case of disaster in an area, surrounding towns will be able to send power to the towns till they are fully back up. Emergency / Rescue teams from other towns will go there with own equipment and supplies for helping them.

Town member can travel / visit other towns. A person drive own car or take a transporter to go other place. Each town and individuals communicate with people around world through free Internet. ;) If an adult want to relocate to other country, the adult check out Wanted database and find candidates.

How to handle a big event?
Let's see there are ten thousands of music lovers: fans and musicians. A festival on a beach. Once the event management team is formed on the net, it will collect exact number of guests and determine resources for big stage building and it allocates materials. For example, the stage needs one thousands pieces of board, it will select 1,000 thousands of guests who can bring it with them on the way.

The flying car engine / portable free energy devices will be connected to series / parallel for providing power of the event.

[9eagle9]

That very may well be it Arrowwind. I hadn't thought of it in terms of splitting off in a multidimensional way but there was definitely a division there. Not that people had been reduced or 'to be left behind' it was just a strong division, like the door was open for a long time and then just closed further defining those who would continue on into the times to come. You're right it can't be defined precisely as we have no recall or knowledge of such events consciously. I did notice during this time a lot of people I used to have on the fringes of my association just dropped off my radar. Their choice not mine. Admittedly people I was working with that wouldn't do their work. The comparison you made intrigues me as well. At that time we did a sweat ad it was the largest one I'd ever been in, 22 people. During the course of the sweat 11 of them left leaving us with eleven in there. Just little things kept happening to re emphasize this dividing off. I had written all these pages of stream of consciousness about lightworkers in particular how they were being divided into those who were serving intentions that were of not mankinds best interests due to their own fear.That was a great sacred cow that I noticed grazing all over the place but one doesn't mention. People who claimed they were serving the light but tied into all this nasty gunk on a different energetic levels. New energies coming in that they wouldn't have access to due to their own choices . Cleansing energies. From Spring Equinox through the fall I was on this roller coast of energy being ramped up, before I could integrate with it, it ramped up again and it was like being on a really fast carousel where someone smacked you with a bat every revolution. You can't sort out all these energis coming in at once until after the fact.

I'm glad I expressed that, I've never told anyone about it because of the expected negative reactions of either.




9eagle9, This is exactly the dilemma that teachers over the ages have gone through. It is best to tell someone as they enter a path that the work is tough and especially if they choose a Native American like path or Shamanistic one there is goveling in the dirt to do on many levels.. that right there, will separate the wheat from the chaff...

like try laying in a whole you dug yourself for a night or two, alone, out in the woods somewhere, to find and face your fears.
Suddenly a group of twenty is reduce to 2 or 3.

There has been an energy shift I perceive also... but I cannot define it exactly... we here have chosen our course and we will go through it come hell or high water... but other parts of us have split off to create in other directions.... This has been prophesized... and it has happended I think.. it is a mutlidimensional event. You are here,, but you are there also. The one over there is not aware of the one here and visa versa. I think it has occured on a planetary scale. Planet earth and her children are replicating themselves out into the infinate, each on a slightly different trail... This is what I have put together from what I have been told.. I do not perceive my other selves... but I know where split offs have been made in my past as an individual replicating consciousness, but this is a planetary event now... mother earth is doing it with her children on board following suit.

Infinity is an amazing experience.... its all in the Seth Material... but the Shamanis Lodges of Turtle Island have held the knowledge for a long time and that teaching came to me about 20 years ago, predicted for about this time frame.

Could this be hitting on some of what you sense?

[9eagle9]

Test photo upload. This is 'Face' admiring herself in the mirror. Screen door is ajar behind her meaning she just walked up the stairs, let herself in, hopped up onto the hall tree, and decided to indulge in some chicken vanity.

[Lettherebelight]

People often think that it is possible to create a 'heaven on earth' scenario. I question this, as humans have four fundamental defects:

1) They make mistakes
2) They are prone to illusion
3) They possess imperfect senses
4) They have a propensity to cheat

Given this reality, any community created on this foundation of faults, is bound to have some serious flaws, ensuring it's inevitable demise. As Write4Change says, it is preferable to live on one's own than suffer the calamities caused by other's
shortcomings... So why make the attempt?

There is something in us, a voice, whispering the possibility of such an endeavour; indeed, the very necessity of it. A longing, searching...

There is a construct for human communities. It is as ancient as the world itself. Clearly outlined in the Vedas, it is a strong enough scaffold to withstand any earthly hardship, yet flexible enough to allow for an endless spectrum of human idiosynchraties.

I refer to Varnasrama Dharma. Easy to research in literatures such as Srimad
Bhagavatam. This construct is so natural to human society, that it emerges throughout the ages, in spite of suppression, like a daisy through a crack in the concrete.

Don't want to be cryptic. Varnasrama dharma means agrarian communities based on cow protection, allowing for folks to work according to their natural inclinations.

That's a mighty fine looking chicken, 9eagle9! :)

[9eagle9]

Yeah that's where we came from. I mean we didn't' just climb down out of the trees and start building condos to hide in; we lived in interdependent communities. Its been relatively late in our history that we all sorta threw the walls up and crept behind them to live independently. The support of our community members was replaced by social welfare programs. We come from social living, communal living, and that's where we belong.

Most of the four that you listed can be overcome with some willingness with ALL involved.


People often think that it is possible to create a 'heaven on earth' scenario. I question this, given humans have four fundamental defects:

1) They make mistakes
2) They are prone to illusion
3) They possess imperfect senses
4) They have a propensity to cheat

Given this reality, any community created on this foundation of faults, is bound to have some serious flaws, ensuring it's inevitable demise. As Write4Change says, it is preferable to live on one's own than suffer the calamities caused by other's shortcomings... So why make the attempt?

There is something in us, a voice, whispering the possibility of such an endeavour; indeed, the urgent necessity of it. A longing, a searching...

There is a construct for human communities. It is as ancient as the world itself. Clearly outlined in the Vedas, it is a strong enough scaffold to withstand any earthly hardship, yet flexible enough to allow for an endless spectrum of human idiosynchraties.

I refer to Varnasrama Dharma. Easy to research in literatures such as Srimad
Bhagavatam. This construct is so natural to human society, that it emerges throughout the ages, in spite of suppression, like a daisy through a crack in the concrete.

Don't want to be cryptic. Varnasrama dharma means agrarian communities based on cow protection, allowing for folks to work according to their natural inclinations.

That's a mighty fine looking chicken, 9eagle9! :)

[Hughe]

I am curious about your bubbles. Like Geodesic domes? Could you explain further?

It's a basic unit of the community not physical structure.

There is two way of human evolution either progressive or jump. Through science and technologies human can be the God being as part of the collective effort. By meditation or enlightenment, one individual can transcend given life time. Am I right? The nirvana in Buddhism is not a physical realm on 3D Earth.

I think human race will be extinguished sooner or later without free energy technologies. Some free energies are destructive and lethal but others are clean and environment friendly. I'm certain TPTB will suppress these technologies till their death. We won't be able to go back to pre-modern society based on agricultural economy. It's too late and TPTB wouldn't allow it happen.

[9eagle9]

Write4change asked me to upload these for her. Had to futz around with them for a day or so....

[Arrowwind]

There is a construct for human communities. It is as ancient as the world itself. Clearly outlined in the Vedas, it is a strong enough scaffold to withstand any earthly hardship, yet flexible enough to allow for an endless spectrum of human idiosynchraties.

I refer to Varnasrama Dharma. Easy to research in literatures such as Srimad
Bhagavatam. This construct is so natural to human society, that it emerges throughout the ages, in spite of suppression, like a daisy through a crack in the concrete.

Don't want to be cryptic. Varnasrama dharma means agrarian communities based on cow protection, allowing for folks to work according to their natural inclinations.



Yes, and the basis for agarian communities traditionally is blood. When family ties bind most of the problems around ideocyncricies evaporate due to the love of family and the compassion generated from deep knowing and life and death sharing... and this is why new communites fail... there is no true bond and it is easy to say the heck with it and walk away.

wow, write4change, WOW.

[write4change]

I will note that I am 46 in these pictures and post menopausal. LOL My opening line at the Mrs. America pageant in Las Vegas is that I am the oldest, the shortest, and the fattest, All true and got a big laugh.

When Maxx died my hair turned white over night. I have kept it that way because I feel I earned it. Women have to live life in all its phases to become all they are because that knowledge of the Divine Feminine has been withheld. When I come back to this I will post what I look like now.

[modwiz]

I will note that I am 46 in these pictures and post menopausal. LOL My opening line at the Mrs. America pageant in Las Vegas is that I am the oldest, the shortest, and the fattest, All true and got a big laugh.

When Maxx died my hair turned white over night. I have kept it that way because I feel I earned it. Women have to live life in all its phases to become all they are because that knowledge of the Divine Feminine has been withheld. When I come back to this I will post what I look like now.

It is not about hair color.
The magnetism comes from the inside and your heart is on your face.

[9eagle9]

I would hope to be as able to shine like you do by this time next year ...but it probably not. Too much cat hair or something..lol.



I will note that I am 46 in these pictures and post menopausal. LOL My opening line at the Mrs. America pageant in Las Vegas is that I am the oldest, the shortest, and the fattest, All true and got a big laugh.

When Maxx died my hair turned white over night. I have kept it that way because I feel I earned it. Women have to live life in all its phases to become all they are because that knowledge of the Divine Feminine has been withheld. When I come back to this I will post what I look like now.

[Smell the Roses]

I am replying to the long original post before looking at the responses. I first found the Directory of Intentional Communities in a bookstore in Minneapolis in 1992. I joined an intentional community in 1995. I didn't find out until after joining, that one of the main leaders was from the failed Synanon community you mentioned above. I left in 1999 after much pain and heartache. I would not say I have fully healed from this experience even today. I can't even imagine trying again and have turned my efforts toward a similar endeavor based more on extended family. So what you wrote about the Alcott books also resonated with me. It's hard to trust otherwise. In fact, it came to me quite clearly after I left that the community was functioning to actually stunt the growth of the people with the most light potential and keep them from accomplishing usefull missions. My only question is whether this was done by design or by accident