Modern Vehicles and the EMP.

[TWINNICK]

With all the computer chips (ECU's) in all modern vehicles these days, are they at risk of failing if an EMP strikes.

I think this is a definite possibility, I have read things over the years and heard radio interviews about it.

We may take it for granted that we just jump in our car's and tootle off to were ever with out a though of this particular real threat.

If the sun does spit a big enough CME at the precise direction of Earth and our cars and all other associated equipment goes down,it will be mayhem.

Unless you have a large shed which might act as a shield, some say even a carport might do the job we will all be walking, or you could have a pre 1980's vehicle which does not have ECU's and high tech equiped sensors.

What do you think people, have you put much thought into it ?

..Nick..

[Ron Mauer Sr]

If an EMP event does occur and disables vehicles, having a pre-80s vehicle may not do much good.

For example:

Where would you go?
What kind of attention would you attract with the only vehicle on the road?
Could you purchase fuel? A wood-gas generator may help here.
Food would not be delivered to the grocery stores if the delivery trucks were not working.


Any semiconductor device would be non-working if the EMP were strong. That includes power inverters used in solar electric systems.
We would be needing local food sources within walking distance, wood stoves, root cellars and well buckets to survive.
Bicycles would be in high demand until the system could be rebuilt.

Reconstruction would need to start from some place on the planet that did not take a direct hit from an EMP.

[jorr lundstrom]

Sh.t happens:behindsofa:

[Ides315]

Hmmm,

From what I have read you would need to go to a pre-computer diesel (mechanical or no fuel injection). They actually require NO electricty to run. Seems depending on strength there is a lot of little stuff to fry in the ignition/charging system of a gasoline vehicle, even before they became computer controlled. The plus side is they are fairly well shielded (later vehicles), so it would take a larger event to take down your vehicle. At which point "where would you go?" becomes very pertinent.

From a full on survivlist side, the diesel is the way to go as you can "grow" your fuel (vege oil of different types) if you have the right setup. Alchohol is an option (and fairly easy conversion to a gasoline motor), better choice of what to make it from, but more complicated to "extract" from the raw materials.

A friend who was involved with the Military supply vehicles said those motors could run just about anything (gasoline, kerosine, diesel, etc.) with some fairly easy changes. Not sure if they are ending up in "Army Surplus" or not though. Would be a BIG truck.......

[Lord Sidious]

From what I recall, EMP will attack anything that has the ability to conduct current.
That is a lot of things in a vehicle.

[ThePythonicCow]

From what I recall, EMP will attack anything that has the ability to conduct current.
That is a lot of things in a vehicle.

I would at a minimum modify that to state: EMP will attack anything that has the ability to conduct current, and that would be harmed by an excess of current.

The metal frame and engine block on a 1930's tractor can sure enough conduct current, but could likely survive a direct hit of lightning without failure.

===

However I'm figuring that the damage caused by EMP will be even more restrictive than this. I'm figuring that it will take a decent antenna to pull in enough current to cause much harm, except perhaps fairly close to "ground zero". Possible antennas include network and power cables, as well as radio and cell phone receivers.

I keep one or two older computers disconnected from power and other cables. I fully expect they will work after an EMP, though I might not be able to test that theory, if my electricity is out and the Internet is down in general.

I rather expect most cars not near ground zero will work, except perhaps for their radios. They tend to have fairly robust electronics, be metal shrouded and not be connected to any long wires.

===

My biggest concern regarding an EMP attack would be the prolonged and systemic failure of our electrical grid. There are a lot of long wires in that system, and we depend greatly on it more or less functioning.

[sjkted]

If an EMP event does occur and disables vehicles, having a pre-80s vehicle may not do much good.

For example:

* Where would you go?
* What kind of attention would you attract with the only vehicle on the road?
* Could you purchase fuel? A wood-gas generator may help here.
* Food would not be delivered to the grocery stores if the delivery trucks were not working.


As someone who drives a early '80s vehicle daily, I'll answer:

- pretty much anywhere I want. With both my onboard fuel tanks, I can drive about 1000 miles (35 gallon tanks @ 30 miles per gallon). If I choose to carry extra fuel in the trunk, I could go even further.
- Don't know. Don't care.
- Maybe, maybe not. But, my vehicle runs on waste vegetable oil and I'm sure someone will have it as it is a waste product. In a pinch, I can also run the vehicle on used oil, transmission fluid, kerosene, and a bunch of other fuel sources.
- True, but not sure it's relevant.

I'm not sure where you are going with this. I'll still be able to get from point A to point B, even if point B is quite a long distance away. This is the point of transportation.

--sjkted

[TWINNICK]

G'day, very valid points by all and I thank you for your replies.
Being the only working vehicle WILL attract attention and most likely the WRONG kind.
Bio fuel vehicle is great do you have a Pantone reactor ? (Geet reactor)
I am not sure but a vehicle with points and mechanical dizzy may still work (we will see)
My father told me they used gas producers (home made) on there cars during ww2 run on cow poop!

The military has done extensive testing on there equipment, some of, if not all important vehicles would be EMP shielded.
An old shipping container could be better insulated and used as a faraday cage.
But I will be keeping my push bike close (LOL)

I have a diesel 4wd but it was made in 2006 and is chockers with electronic sensors.

Sorry to bunch all this up into one reply but I am falling asleep as I type this. time to go catch some zzzzzzz.

see you good people on the morrow !

..Nick..

[wolf_rt]

I have no direct evidance, but i would suspect the Coil and Condenser(capacator attached to the side of the distributor) may be affected even in a pre efi car.. these are definatly the only components that may have to be replaced. also check that the car has points, not electronicaly switched ignition. I imaging that if you wrapped a spare coil/condenser in copper/lead and buried it there is a good chance it would survive.
when repairing burnt out electrics remember that most coils(usually stamped with a 'R' somewhere) only run on 7 Volts if connected directly to the battery they will burn out (and you wasted your time burying it and whatnot) often there is a white ceramic resistor near the coil that performs the reduction, other times it is handled in the dash (if your car doesnt have one near the coil, get one with your spare parts, or use a 12V coil.)

EDIT: i just realised.. if the coil goes the alternator will also.. if the battery doesnt charge, it will only provide spark for 8 hours or so provided the EMP doesnt damage the battery.... so bury an alternator too???(check the voltage regulator is on the back of your alternator, not seperate on the guard or something)
If a EMP event took place on a wide scale that could fry an alternator??? That would be really S#*T
perhaps some varnish suitable for re-winding motors/generators would be handy to have in the kit...
Im not sure how Magneto type systems would fair, will have to look it up.

As stated mechanical injection desels are fine, perhaps keep a can of ether handy to aid starting with no starter motor or glowplugs. (will need to be manual) diesels with inline mehanical pumps (rather than rotary) are better for running on bio/poor fuel
Indeed there are old 45 series landcruisers here in QLD running on (light)crude oil direct from the ground.

It is fairly easy to convert a carburettor car to run on alcohol, you will need to remove the main jets fron the carburettor(a fixed metering Holley style carb is easiest) and ream them out to near double the size. (trial and um..more trial req here) the ignition timing will also have to be adjusted to make the vehicle driveable.

modern vehicles are unable to be diagnosed and repaired even by qualified ppl with the corect computer equiptment. Do not trust your life to a modern computerised vehicle. (even new diesel landcruisers are now chipped and it will not be possible to jury rig them to run)

it is quite possible to convert internal combustion engines to steam from a variety of fuels (wood, alcohol,anything that will burn) to great effect.. Average welding/fabrication skills are required. modern cars with a standard manual gearbox could be used, once all the plastic is taken off..lol

Edit: Something i just thaught of most if not all small engines these days use transisterised ignition modules..generators,small pump motors ect.. WILL NOT RUN afaik. the ignition modules seem quite delicate.

[TWINNICK]

I have no direct evidance, but i would suspect the Coil and Condenser(capacator attached to the side of the distributor) may be affected even in a pre efi car.. these are definatly the only components that may have to be replaced. also check that the car has points, not electronicaly switched ignition. I imaging that if you wrapped a spare coil/condenser in copper/lead and buried it there is a good chance it would survive.
when repairing burnt out electrics remember that most coils(usually stamped with a 'R' somewhere) only run on 7 Volts if connected directly to the battery they will burn out (and you wasted your time burying it and whatnot) often there is a white ceramic resistor near the coil that performs the reduction, other times it is handled in the dash (if your car doesnt have one near the coil, get one with your spare parts, or use a 12V coil.)

EDIT: i just realised.. if the coil goes the alternator will also.. if the battery doesnt charge, it will only provide spark for 8 hours or so provided the EMP doesnt damage the battery.... so bury an alternator too???(check the voltage regulator is on the back of your alternator, not seperate on the guard or something)
If a EMP event took place on a wide scale that could fry an alternator??? That would be really S#*T
perhaps some varnish suitable for re-winding motors/generators would be handy to have in the kit...
Im not sure how Magneto type systems would fair, will have to look it up.

As stated mechanical injection desels are fine, perhaps keep a can of ether handy to aid starting with no starter motor or glowplugs. (will need to be manual) diesels with inline mehanical pumps (rather than rotary) are better for running on bio/poor fuel
Indeed there are old 45 series landcruisers here in QLD running on (light)crude oil direct from the ground.

It is fairly easy to convert a carburettor car to run on alcohol, you will need to remove the main jets fron the carburettor(a fixed metering Holley style carb is easiest) and ream them out to near double the size. (trial and um..more trial req here) the ignition timing will also have to be adjusted to make the vehicle driveable.

modern vehicles are unable to be diagnosed and repaired even by qualified ppl with the corect computer equiptment. Do not trust your life to a modern computerised vehicle. (even new diesel landcruisers are now chipped and it will not be possible to jury rig them to run)

it is quite possible to convert internal combustion engines to steam from a variety of fuels (wood, alcohol,anything that will burn) to great effect.. Average welding/fabrication skills are required. modern cars with a standard manual gearbox could be used, once all the plastic is taken off..lol

Edit: Something i just thaught of most if not all small engines these days use transisterised ignition modules..generators,small pump motors ect.. WILL NOT RUN afaik. the ignition modules seem quite delicate.


G'day, yes this is true, I agree with you I think the ptw have seen to all of this transisterized everything over the years to stuff us up, they knew what they were planning.

You could try and keep some spares insulated inside a large tool box or esky, (metal) wrapped in cloth or something.

No I won't be relying on my modern 4wd unfortunately and yes I have heard of the old 45's running on bio , I think John Ruth and his beloved MILO from 4+4 Australia had done a story on it ages ago.

We might all be walking or running to the nearest safe place when the sun does its thing, although I plan to get out of the city long before this if I can.

Thats why I'm trying to find out as much as I can about world events and this Charles stuff (maybe true, maybe not ?) or incoming war ( false flag) so I can make an informed decision,.
Maybe I should trade in my bus for an old 45 landy and check over it, tidy it up and see how I go.

..Nick..

[sjkted]

If you have an older diesel, it can run without an alternator. Of course, there will be no electronics in the car and the battery won't charge. But, the battery could be charged with another method such as solar or a battery charger running from a generator. One could take a battery out of the one of many cars that will probably never start up again...

From all of the research I've done on EMPs, it indicates that only ICs (Integrated Circuits) would be affected. What makes you think a coil would be damaged?

--sjkted

[Koyaanisqatsi]

My research has led me to believe that we will be shielded (at least partially) over the next few years from solar flares (make no mistake, they are coming) that could essentially cause massive emps. Not globally, however.I do believe most 1st world nations may maintain electricity due to the earth's sun screen provided by 30+ years of UV reflective and atmospherically buoyant metals currently floating under our ionosphere (maybe the CTs weren't meant strictly for weather manipulation). It's on your skin right now in the form of titanium dioxide (check the ingredients on your bar of soap, go ahead) and may prevent harmful, cancer causing radiation from our violent sun...... I don't know all this to be true, but it's currently my working hypothesis. Buy a bike and get in shape- you'll be ok :)

[wolf_rt]

If you have an older diesel, it can run without an alternator. Of course, there will be no electronics in the car and the battery won't charge. But, the battery could be charged with another method such as solar or a battery charger running from a generator. One could take a battery out of the one of many cars that will probably never start up again...

From all of the research I've done on EMPs, it indicates that only ICs (Integrated Circuits) would be affected. What makes you think a coil would be damaged?

--sjkted

Im no EM expert but a coil works on EM fields, and can burn out under regular use..seems like a big EMP could burn the windings....
ive done exactly NO research on this... i sure hope your right.

hmm, just thaught... i believe that the voltage rectifier/regulator on the back of an alternator WOULD be susceptable to EMP.

Had a quick google.. seems that ANYTHING made of metal would be affected.. If the EMP was strong enough your entire car could MELT!!! lol..
Seems like the order of things affected would be something like:
HDD's and magnetic tape.
IC's
Anything connected to a wall socket and hence the power lines.
Diodes. Transistors ect.
Valves.
(Could be wrong here but it seems that any 'coil' designed to induce a EM field would be vunrable) so:
Car coils, speakers, generators, alternators, inductors, motors, solenoids, ect....

[panopticon]

G'day,

So this means that an off the grid solar system running into a battery bank would be susceptible to an EMP not only through the panels acting as collectors but also as the regulator and inverter etc would no longer be viable. Not only that but the battery bank would no longer be viable.
Any knowledge here as to whether the batteries would explode in an EMP event?

Regards,
Panopticon

[TWINNICK]

G'day.
From my research although a while back class x solar flare, C.M.E would travel through any piping. This means metal gas lines, water pipes, ground earths (House), vehicles, and anything metal, underground or on top of it.

I listened to a Dr Bill Deagle radio interview last year, I'm sure if you went to his site you would be able to find it, ( clay and iron) search emp interview.


It was pretty damn full on about what we will have to deal with, there is no escaping any of it unless you are prepared to go 8-12 feet underground in dirt or concrete topped structure. A cave in the hills would be a good starting place or even a road water culvert made of concrete, all our cars will be out of action as will all electronics, its back to basics I'm afraid.

I think brushing up on hunting skills and food collection is a good idea, don't rely on having any help from the govn't they will be all tucked away in there cosy D.U.M.B's.

I know this sounds extreme but if you do your research and prepare for the worst and it does happen ( and I do believe it will) you will have a better chance at surviving it.

Even if it is a small EMP it may disrupt a lot of earths systems that we take for granted, people will be walking around in circles not knowing what to do ( not Avalonians, because we are preped).

The cities are not a good place to be as far as I'm concerned, there could be all systems down, a whole city without power or lights will be a dangerous place to be.

I'm afraid a lot of people have forgoten how to live without there microwaves, computers, phones, cars, electric cooking, shops, fridges, electricity and much more.

..Nick..

[panopticon]

G'day Nick,

You make excellent points and I agree that many will not prepare.
There is an excellent series called 'Bushcraft' by Ron Edwards that discusses many of the ways Aussie bushmen survived and thrived in our harsh interior.
People can read to their hearts content however it is hands on experience that makes the difference.
I was only concerned about battery explosion as I will have to fix the battery shed to cope with acid from the buggars connected at the time...

Kind Regards,
Panopticon

[TWINNICK]

G'day.
I would think if any battery terminals had anything connected to them (wires) they will be at risk.

Maybe even the battery terminals themselves (bare) because they are connected to the plates, I'm not sure but it is possible.

If we get any prior warning at all it maybe prudent to disconnect all of your equipment, but I think the panels themselves may be at risk anyway.

Any piping, wires, metal of any kind as far as I'm aware will be at risk of running a surge down it.

Can you get some old pallets from chep, you know the ones they transport goods on flat top trucks, put all of your batteries up off the floor on the pallets to insulate them, disconnect the wiring from the panels and batteries when said EMP is going to hit ( if we get warning).

I have heard a shipping container makes a good faraday cage as long as nothing in side is touching the container itself (insulate) the floors of the containers are wood but they are screwed in so you have to have another level of insulation like old rubber floor mats or something.

Even the humble Aussie shed could be insulated quite cheaply, don't let anything touch the shed metal itself and keep things off the floor.

OH and I like the Bush Tucker Man, he's great, I've met him once years ago. Look up Bush Foods on the net there is a wealth of stuff there with pictures as well so you can identify more easily.

..Nick..

[panopticon]

G'day Nick,

Excellent points.
I've got an AirX and a spare inverter in wire cover for Faraday cage, all in a sea container.
Spare inverter set aside.
Not anticipating being able to use the solar panels if an EMP arrives.
Chose the AirX 12V 400W as it has an inbuilt rectifier/analyser so no need for extras.
Oxy weld for piping etc.
Wiring put to one side so no problems if needed.

Regards,
Panopticon

[TWINNICK]

G'day Nick,

Excellent points.
I've got an AirX and a spare inverter in wire cover for Faraday cage, all in a sea container.
Spare inverter set aside.
Not anticipating being able to use the solar panels if an EMP arrives.
Chose the AirX 12V 400W as it has an inbuilt rectifier/analyser so no need for extras.
Oxy weld for piping etc.
Wiring put to one side so no problems if needed.

Regards,
Panopticon


G'day,

Insulate the contents of the faraday cage by wrapping them in plastic or cloth and maybe even lifted slightly on little blocks of wood.

If we get warning you maybe able to get the solar panels off the roof and into the container and insulated by timber to try and save them as well.

I'm not sure a wire/basket type container is good enough, I think it needs to be solid metal box, it will disipate the field more evenly to the ground.

..Nick..

[panopticon]

G'day Nick,

Sorry. You are completely correct.
I have the box the AirX came in and the inverter wrapped in a tarp, in the wire, on a wooden shelf, in a sea container. (Sounds like a nursery rhyme :p )
Next to it is the wiring.
I can access the pole the panels are on easily enough just not really sure that it is a priority here (high wind zone) as I would then need to muck about with rectifiers etc...
Thanks for the excellent advice though. I hadn't thought of using pallets as insulators before. I've got a specifically built rack (hence the curiosity as to what an EMP would do to batteries).
BTW do you think an isolation switch is enough to isolate a secondary battery bank (given all above hold true of course) in this instance?

Kind Regards,
Panopticon

[TWINNICK]

G'day Nick,

Sorry. You are completely correct.
I have the box the AirX came in and the inverter wrapped in a tarp, in the wire, on a wooden shelf, in a sea container. (Sounds like a nursery rhyme :p )
Next to it is the wiring.
I can access the pole the panels are on easily enough just not really sure that it is a priority here (high wind zone) as I would then need to muck about with rectifiers etc...
Thanks for the excellent advice though. I hadn't thought of using pallets as insulators before. I've got a specifically built rack (hence the curiosity as to what an EMP would do to batteries).
BTW do you think an isolation switch is enough to isolate a secondary battery bank (given all above hold true of course) in this instance?

Kind Regards,
Panopticon


G'day, No an isolation switch may have its contacts jumped, the EMP could be huge, imagine a bolt of lightning at say 2 million volts hitting the switch contacts.

Prolly safer to have every wire and contact at least far enough away from each other so a spark can not breach the gap, say 100mm or more.

Also would not hurt to cover terminals and ends of wires with plastic insulators like a cap off of spray can or something similar.

It can't hurt to go a little overboard, it might make all the difference and if nothing to drastic happens then you have not spent a great deal of time or money insuring the equipment.

..Nick..

[Icecold]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t23iXhEiQUc&feature=player_embedded



I would suggest building a garage sized Faraday cage. A vehicle inside a sealed Faraday cage should survive with its electronics intact.

Also Horses won't be effected. :cool:

[Icecold]

Wow what a thread killer. :hurt:

[Ron Mauer Sr]

The EMP can cause "punch through" of a semiconductor junction between the type "P" and type "N" material. All semiconductor devices have maximum voltage ratings. The pulse has an extremely fast rise time of voltage and is of a very short duration. After a semiconductor has failed due to "punch through" the damaged junction may result in high current and thermal damage.

Diodes in the alternator could be damaged. A DC generator should survive.

I am guessing here but I expect that lightning protection may provide *some* protection if you are far enough away from an EMP event.

An EMP event high above the mid-west could take out all of the USA and parts of Mexico and Canada, I've read.

I've heard (do not necessarily believe) that an EMP event would destroy the many transformers mounted on power poles. If that happens, it would take many years to rebuild and distribute new transformers and have electricity restored.

Some satellites have been damaged by CME without damaging semiconductors on Earth's surface.

[sjkted]

I actually have a spare alternator for my early 80s diesel. I was going to put it for sale on eBay, but this thread has convinced me otherwise. What do you guys think is the best way to protect it? I was thinking of wrapping it in foil or putting it in the fridge in my bug out motorhome (which is usually turned off).

--sjkted

[TWINNICK]

I actually have a spare alternator for my early 80s diesel. I was going to put it for sale on eBay, but this thread has convinced me otherwise. What do you guys think is the best way to protect it? I was thinking of wrapping it in foil or putting it in the fridge in my bug out motorhome (which is usually turned off).

--sjkted


G'day,

wrap it up well in plastic or cloth and put it in a metal tool box or esky or your fridge, but make sure it is insulated and doesn't touch anything.

I believe if you wrap some insulating material around things you wish to protect and then wrap that in strong cooking alfoil it will work as well, which is what I plan to do with my expensive torch collection and batteries. Maybe a few wraps or layers worth can't hurt and it doesn't cost much for the heavy duty alfoil.

I also have an old micro wave oven with the cord cut off ready to use, apparently they work well.

..Nick..

[panopticon]

I also have an old micro wave oven with the cord cut off ready to use, apparently they work well.




Diodes in the alternator could be damaged. A DC generator should survive.
I've heard (do not necessarily believe) that an EMP event would destroy the many transformers mounted on power poles. If that happens, it would take many years to rebuild and distribute new transformers and have electricity restored.


G'day,

I want to thank you both. :wave:
I have prepared for a high level EMP and never thought of a microwave oven as an insulator. I've a couple lying around so that's excellent.
Also I thought my trucks and utes generators (yeah they're old '40's Blitz and '68 Bedford) would have the same problems as an alternator.
What about the coil?
Would old ovens and fridges offer similar protection to a microwave? I realise that microwaves are designed for stopping radiation just curious about the oven/fridge Faraday idea before I go to the tip. :confused:

Kind Regards,
Panopticon

[TWINNICK]

I also have an old micro wave oven with the cord cut off ready to use, apparently they work well.




Diodes in the alternator could be damaged. A DC generator should survive.
I've heard (do not necessarily believe) that an EMP event would destroy the many transformers mounted on power poles. If that happens, it would take many years to rebuild and distribute new transformers and have electricity restored.


G'day,

I want to thank you both. :wave:
I have prepared for a high level EMP and never thought of a microwave oven as an insulator. I've a couple lying around so that's excellent.
Also I thought my trucks and utes generators (yeah they're old '40's Blitz and '68 Bedford) would have the same problems as an alternator.
What about the coil?
Would old ovens and fridges offer similar protection to a microwave? I realise that microwaves are designed for stopping radiation just curious about the oven/fridge Faraday idea before I go to the tip. :confused:

Kind Regards,
Panopticon


G'day,

A faraday cage is basically a metal box, so an old oven would be pretty good I would say. I remember reading that aluminium boxes are very good faraday cages.

I see a lot of tradies with those aluminium tool boxes on the back of there utes and some are a good size to hold a lot of spare parts like alternators, starter motors, coils, regulators and such. I would say the old generators out of the old trucks would be excellent, plus they usually have external regulators which are adjustable for voltage, I had an old V.W. kombi for 13 years which had one.

Micro wave ovens apparently are a perfect faraday cage because of the fact they are shielded to stop the EMF coming out into your living space, although you have to cut the cord off very close to the body or remove it altogether. No wires as they act as an ariel or antenae (spelling).

If we get some kind of warning before the EMP I am worried I will have to find a suitable shed or carport for my truck other wise I'll be walking, love my truck but the damn things chockers with electronic gizmo's.

..Nick..

[Ron Mauer Sr]

Here is a simple and practical test of your Faraday cage.

Put a cell phone inside the microwave, pressure cooker, refrigerator, aluminum foil, mylar bag, or whatever you plan to use. Then call your cell phone and listen for the ring.

If it does not ring, you are probably protected from damage by spikes and other high voltage RF energy.

Note: The shielding on microwave ovens is frequency selective. The size of holes on the glass front will make a difference.

[Setras]

Cool my old motorcar from the eighties has a removable Ignition system and it will fit in the microwave... just need a warning before it strikes..

[Ivanhoe]

Hi everyone,
I've beem thinking about steam power a lot.
No electronics, just valves, and can run on practicaly anything.
I started looking into it a little when I began thinking of ways to farm without a conventional tractor (I know NOTHING about horses and how to take care of them) and began thinking about the early farmers of the 20th century and their tools.
I came across a video on you tube about some gents from England who have built a newer version of a steam tractor and tested it in Belguim (I believe).
The only problem I've ran into is that the U.S. government doesn't allow the manufacturing of new steam vehicles, at least that's what I've been lead to believe.
Any thoughts on this?
Thanks,
Ivanhoe
P.S. Obviously a steam engine, plant can be used for a lot of personal and manufacturing applications as well.

[Madmustang]

Hi everyone,
I've beem thinking about steam power a lot.
No electronics, just valves, and can run on practicaly anything.
I started looking into it a little when I began thinking of ways to farm without a conventional tractor (I know NOTHING about horses and how to take care of them) and began thinking about the early farmers of the 20th century and their tools.
I came across a video on you tube about some gents from England who have built a newer version of a steam tractor and tested it in Belguim (I believe).
The only problem I've ran into is that the U.S. government doesn't allow the manufacturing of new steam vehicles, at least that's what I've been lead to believe.
Any thoughts on this?
Thanks,
Ivanhoe
P.S. Obviously a steam engine, plant can be used for a lot of personal and manufacturing applications as well.

Hi there, can you post the link so we can have a looky see please?

[sjkted]

I want to see too.

--sjkted

[Ivanhoe]

Ok.
It took me awhile to locate the site again but here it is: www.savage-engineers-ltd.com .
I had been talking with my brother about gasoline engines and how they wouldn't function (unless you had the spare parts and such to repair them after a cme and/or emp episode), and it made me reconsider steam power.
Applicable not only in farming but also transportation and manufacturing and generating electricity (after rewinding armatures of course).
I think it may be a great alternative, especially considering the scarcity of petroleum based fuels and lack of ready replacements for electonic systems and components. After all, most modern fuels are developed in refineries which wouldn't be functioning after a major calmity like a massive cme/emp.
Ivanhoe
Ivanhoe

[Ivanhoe]

Sorry, I thought it was a you tube video but it was this web site instead. Sorry for my confusion, wasn't intentional, ...brain fade caused by a bunch of reasons, lol.
Ivanhoe

Hope this is usefull.

[TWINNICK]

G'day,

My personal POV is that you need a lot of fuel to burn in a steam engine, what are you going to burn ? we have to stop cutting down tree's on this planet !

If you have a seriously fast growing weed that has no other purpose and enough density to not burn too quickly.... maybe.


If you can harness the suns power to drive your steam engine that would be great.....free power ( reflector dishes, solar hot water panels ? ) where is the water coming from ?.

I think electric motors are the way to go ( shielded) and energy from the sun, maybe we can find all the Tesla technology the letter agencies hid from us and put it into use.

Magnetic motors, perpetually driven generators, pure sine wave inverters, wind energy, wave energy, universal energy, there are smart people out there who know all about this type of energy and we need to put it to use.

Nicola Tesla--- Hmmmm what a great man, ahead of his time, wouldn't it be great if everybody had a small box in there house that gave them all the power they needed- for free !.

I don't like the idea of everybody looking for something to burn in there steam boilers, we don't have enough greenery left on the planet now.

What about the pollution,where's all the smoke and particles going to go. How do you police it to make sure nobody burns toxic fuel and pollutes the air.

..Nick..

[Bo Atkinson]

With all due respect. I differ in opinion here. Long wires electrically- attached to electronic devices could act as pick-up devices (antennae). One can pull plugs if electrical 'storms' appear to happen increasingly, here or there. One can begin greater precautions. Power line transformers have extremely long wires attached, which is their primary susceptibility. These wires are "closed circuits" and tuned by long length-- Are prone both to electrical and to magnetic fields. Tuned to pick up long waves or low frequency pulses. Higher frequency pulses like microwaves, if powered high enough, might burn small devices, but if that high a level, might also scorch or heat anything conductive like water, plants and animals-- I doubt there is any replicable example of space-sourced scorching like this. Besides, perhaps a neutron bomb, rated that strong, for target zones.

Providing that ignition coils are "open", then long wave pulses like lightning should not bother them. If a vehicle had the old fashioned electrical points, in the closed position, this might be an exception. (Might be a good idea to check tis after parking for storage). If a vehicular, semi-conductor control circuit was able to close the ignition circuit while being zapped, that might burn it, but is hard to know. Delicate semiconductors do indeed burn easily, which is the chief concern. Heavy semiconductors as in inverters or solar panels can take a big jolt. If a long wire isn't attached (to serve as a pick-up device for the jolt)--Or where a ground or earth wire is not attached during these events... Inverters with semi-conductor bridge circuits connected to transformer windings, could be argued as susceptible closed circuits-- Except, this circuit is way to physically small to pick up low frequency magnetically induced pulses, such as normal lightning events. It might take an almost - annihilating jolt to scorch it, enough to scorch all life generally. I once had an ordinary welder grounding wire attached to a large metal structure, during a lightning storm. I could actually hear the thunder cloud coming as 'audible ticks' inside the welder box, (it was even shut off from AC in this instance). A flash of light also occurred around the welder, all this without damage.... The current discharged was within the specified working range of my welder. I felt no electricity, standing close by.

The rubber tires offer good insulation. If soaked by rain, then all outdoor surfaces are wet also and provide huge conductive paths wide spread, (to help discharge safely). All metal tractors or equipment might fair worse. As to "going primitive" the chief thing here might be to live away from dense population centers. Develop good relationships with local people and neighbors, well in advance. Begin becoming self-sufficient-ish, just one small step each day.

wav

----
Edit-PS: Tesla offerred a wonderful concept for "lightning protectors", in one of his patents. I highly recommend study of his patent concept, in light of these concerns. It is inspiring and in direct contrast to Franklin's lightning arrestor.

I'd agree to take care with fuel burning plans and upstarts. Sustainability with wood burning is a highly self-disciplined art. Efficient steam generators would prove difficult to build from scratch. Co-generation is almost critical here, even making a builder's cement as well (all at the same time, same process)... It gets very complicated for single individuals. I do have a good design in case someone has a good waste stream, like rice hulls, (or silica bearing fuel content).

[TWINNICK]

With all due respect. I differ in opinion here. Long wires electrically- attached to electronic devices could act as pick-up devices (antennae). One can pull plugs if electrical 'storms' appear to happen increasingly, here or there. One can begin greater precautions. Power line transformers have extremely long wires attached, which is their primary susceptibility. These wires are "closed circuits" and tuned by long length-- Are prone both to electrical and to magnetic fields. Tuned to pick up long waves or low frequency pulses. Higher frequency pulses like microwaves, if powered high enough, might burn small devices, but if that high a level, might also scorch or heat anything conductive like water, plants and animals-- I doubt there is any replicable example of space-sourced scorching like this. Besides, perhaps a neutron bomb, rated that strong, for target zones.

Providing that ignition coils are "open", then long wave pulses like lightning should not bother them. If a vehicle had the old fashioned electrical points, in the closed position, this might be an exception. (Might be a good idea to check tis after parking for storage). If a vehicular, semi-conductor control circuit was able to close the ignition circuit while being zapped, that might burn it, but is hard to know. Delicate semiconductors do indeed burn easily, which is the chief concern. Heavy semiconductors as in inverters or solar panels can take a big jolt. If a long wire isn't attached (to serve as a pick-up device for the jolt)--Or where a ground or earth wire is not attached during these events... Inverters with semi-conductor bridge circuits connected to transformer windings, could be argued as susceptible closed circuits-- Except, this circuit is way to physically small to pick up low frequency magnetically induced pulses, such as normal lightning events. It might take an almost - annihilating jolt to scorch it, enough to scorch all life generally. I once had an ordinary welder grounding wire attached to a large metal structure, during a lightning storm. I could actually hear the thunder cloud coming as 'audible ticks' inside the welder box, (it was even shut off from AC in this instance). A flash of light also occurred around the welder, all this without damage.... The current discharged was within the specified working range of my welder. I felt no electricity, standing close by.

The rubber tires offer good insulation. If soaked by rain, then all outdoor surfaces are wet also and provide huge conductive paths wide spread, (to help discharge safely). All metal tractors or equipment might fair worse. As to "going primitive" the chief thing here might be to live away from dense population centers. Develop good relationships with local people and neighbors, well in advance. Begin becoming self-sufficient-ish, just one small step each day.

wav

----
Edit-PS: Tesla offerred a wonderful concept for "lightning protectors", in one of his patents. I highly recommend study of his patent concept, in light of these concerns. It is inspiring and in direct contrast to Franklin's lightning arrestor.

I'd agree to take care with fuel burning plans and upstarts. Sustainability with wood burning is a highly self-disciplined art. Efficient steam generators would prove difficult to build from scratch. Co-generation is almost critical here, even making a builder's cement as well (all at the same time, same process)... It gets very complicated for single individuals. I do have a good design in case someone has a good waste stream, like rice hulls, (or silica bearing fuel content).


G'day,

Ummm are you disagreeing with me or someone else ? I'm not quite sure, if you read my previous posts you'll find I've already gone into the problems one can have with wires connected to electrical equipment.

Not to mention all the stuff about faraday cages and conductivity of solar panels, plus the vehicles that are going to have problems because of the amount of electronics and sensors they are filled with theses days and aerials attracting EMF from a CME.

I think most would know about the older vehicles with points and coils, it has been spoken of about the spare parts being shielded by faraday cages and the pulse of EMP or CME induced current running through water pipes and anything metal like buildings and underground cables.

I don't think it matters how small a circuit is it has the potential to attract EMF whether from a CME or pulse weapon device.

I maybe wrong but I understood the steam engine idea was about after the sun had spat a CME large enough to reek havock and the damage was done and we could pick up our lives after it was all over, we need to have power and could investigate other forms of sustainable energy.

Tesla's equipment and research that was stolen by the alfabet soup agencies ( and is being used by them for there own projects that doesn't include the rest of the people) would be a great place to start, he had some amazing technology and wanted to use it for the benefit of all man kind not just a few which is why I think they did what they did to him, he was a brilliant mind.

..Nick..

[Ivanhoe]

Nick,
My thoughts on steam pertained to starting back up in the sense that it would be fairly available, especialy for manufacturing capabilities and farming. The designs for more effecient vehicles and power generation are out there but I think that for SHORT term (2-5 years) while restarting industry and food production steam might be viable.
Wood is only one of the fuels available, and there would still be fossil fuels available also(even animal dung), but I agree that using solar to heat the water would be the way to go.
I also understand your concern about availabilty of H2O, but I live in close proxemity to the Red River in northern Louisiana, USA, so using waterwheels for energy production and milling and such is a very viable option. 19th century industry to jump start 21st industry so to speak.
The point I'm trying to make is that it might be a readily available stop-gap technology until solar and green tech can be reintegrated into our societies.
Surviving for the first 1-3 years is the short term goal while redeveloping technologies to rebuild.
Hope that makes sense.
And I'd LOVE to get more info about Tesla out to the world at large. An amazing man!
Ivanhoe

[TWINNICK]

Nick,
My thoughts on steam pertained to starting back up in the sense that it would be fairly available, especialy for manufacturing capabilities and farming. The designs for more effecient vehicles and power generation are out there but I think that for SHORT term (2-5 years) while restarting industry and food production steam might be viable.
Wood is only one of the fuels available, and there would still be fossil fuels available also(even animal dung), but I agree that using solar to heat the water would be the way to go.
I also understand your concern about availabilty of H2O, but I live in close proxemity to the Red River in northern Louisiana, USA, so using waterwheels for energy production and milling and such is a very viable option. 19th century industry to jump start 21st industry so to speak.
The point I'm trying to make is that it might be a readily available stop-gap technology until solar and green tech can be reintegrated into our societies.
Surviving for the first 1-3 years is the short term goal while redeveloping technologies to rebuild.
Hope that makes sense.
And I'd LOVE to get more info about Tesla out to the world at large. An amazing man!
Ivanhoe


G'day,

Yes I understand were you are coming from and agree it could be put to use for the purpose you have said, something in the short to medium term to kick things off again.

Necessity is the mother of invention and depending on whats left after the earth changes (and whom) we will have to make do with what we have available.

..Nick..

[Ivanhoe]

Nick and anyone else,
I apologise for introducing the "steam" question. I didn't mean to create a distraction from your dicussions of solar and green tech.
Along the thought line of utilizing solar energy,... would the usage of parabolic mirrors to increase the intensity of the sun be viable with solar panels? Has anyone tried this?
Do you think that focusing the sun in this manner might create overload or possibly burn or scorch the panels?
Seems to me (and I'm a novice in ANYTHING electrical) that one could increase electrical generation by use of concentrating the available sunlight.
Would use of parabolic mirrors in this kind of application damage a solar collector or cell?
Just presenting some ideas here, hope they're not too distracting. I'm a novice.
Thanks,
Ivanhoe

[Darla Ken Pearce]

I hardly dare jump into this "guys' discussion about the viability of motors, battery packs, solar panels and such. No wonder you lost all the women, eh?

A CME is not a destructive source. At risk is HAARP and the ability of dark forces to release EMP upon us. They know not what they do.

You must understand that new technologies will be revealed this year ~ 2011 ~ that revolutionize every concept of energy, power, and utility. We are not going back into the stone age again. We did that over and over and over and it's done, okay? While they may at some point be an outage of short duration, we are under the watchful eye of Divine Intervention and things will get much, much, better ahead and not worse. You can worry your cute little pointy heads about it ~ I have one, too, so please don't take offense. But it would be a better use of your time ~ imagining new creations that do not usurp blood from Mother Earth to run. There is probably a method we will be taught to convert old toys into using new energy sources ~ so they won't just be put into the trash heap but I'm not sure what that might look like. We will soon see new vistas and have great joy in the new discoveries such as zero-point gravity, free energy, and intergalactic travel. Think about what it will feel like to become Galactic Citizens. And stop falling into the old patterns that no longer serve us.

And now I will go play with my kittens and leave you masters of the universe to sort things out on your own or wait, could that be a really bad idea ; ) xoxox

[sjkted]

We are not going back into the stone age again. We did that over and over and over and it's done, okay?


Ok. I'm fine as long as I get to continue to play with the latest and greatest toys.

--sjkted

[Darla Ken Pearce]

Hey, that's a promise!
I am regretful of my pointy head comment and ask forgiveness. Even I am offended ; ) xoxox

[gripreaper]

I actually have a spare alternator for my early 80s diesel. I was going to put it for sale on eBay, but this thread has convinced me otherwise. What do you guys think is the best way to protect it? I was thinking of wrapping it in foil or putting it in the fridge in my bug out motorhome (which is usually turned off).

--sjkted

Do you have an old microwave? Old microwaves make great storage devices against EMF pulse.

[TWINNICK]

Nick and anyone else,
I apologise for introducing the "steam" question. I didn't mean to create a distraction from your dicussions of solar and green tech.
Along the thought line of utilizing solar energy,... would the usage of parabolic mirrors to increase the intensity of the sun be viable with solar panels? Has anyone tried this?
Do you think that focusing the sun in this manner might create overload or possibly burn or scorch the panels?
Seems to me (and I'm a novice in ANYTHING electrical) that one could increase electrical generation by use of concentrating the available sunlight.
Would use of parabolic mirrors in this kind of application damage a solar collector or cell?
Just presenting some ideas here, hope they're not too distracting. I'm a novice.
Thanks,
Ivanhoe


G'day,

You don't have to apologize for anything, it was a good idea and we may have to do the steam engine thingy to kick us off, but I just had thoughts of thousands of steam engines springing up all over the place with everybody burning everything in site, but thats just me being extremest like I do every now and then (LOL).

If we had one main steam engine plant in every community that generated power for the people and the size of the community was not overly large and we had some form of renewable fuel that grew quickly I can't see why it couldn't work for a time until we get better energy devices organized.

Mind you we would have to deal with the smoke and pollution, like filters on the smoke stacks and the ash could be mixed in with fertilizer and animal poop.

Now as far as I know a solar panel looses its efficiency as the temp gets hotter so a parabolic reflector needs to be far enough away from the panels so it doesn't get over heated and drop its output, you want maximum efficiency from each panel in the bank.

I'm not sure of the limits but I believe a 25 degree day with bright sunlight will be good, a 35- 40+ day and I know from my nephews panels they loose efficiency. not a great deal but it does tax them. And I'm talking C not F temps here so if the panels are kept cool they will perform well in good sunlight.

To be honest I'm a little worried that we may not have too much sunlight around after the volcano's spit the dummy and all the rest of the sky's covered in pollution from the earth changes.

Me thinks for a time we will be doin the manual labor thing until we get some semblance of order again.

..Nick..

[TWINNICK]

I hardly dare jump into this "guys' discussion about the viability of motors, battery packs, solar panels and such. No wonder you lost all the women, eh?

A CME is not a destructive source. At risk is HAARP and the ability of dark forces to release EMP upon us. They know not what they do.

You must understand that new technologies will be revealed this year ~ 2011 ~ that revolutionize every concept of energy, power, and utility. We are not going back into the stone age again. We did that over and over and over and it's done, okay? While they may at some point be an outage of short duration, we are under the watchful eye of Divine Intervention and things will get much, much, better ahead and not worse. You can worry your cute little pointy heads about it ~ I have one, too, so please don't take offense. But it would be a better use of your time ~ imagining new creations that do not usurp blood from Mother Earth to run. There is probably a method we will be taught to convert old toys into using new energy sources ~ so they won't just be put into the trash heap but I'm not sure what that might look like. We will soon see new vistas and have great joy in the new discoveries such as zero-point gravity, free energy, and intergalactic travel. Think about what it will feel like to become Galactic Citizens. And stop falling into the old patterns that no longer serve us.

And now I will go play with my kittens and leave you masters of the universe to sort things out on your own or wait, could that be a really bad idea ; ) xoxox


G'day Darla,

HHmmmm me thinks someone has inside info !

Actually I think when the sun spits a big fat X class CME at us it will hurt! and we did the alternative energy thingy back earlier on in the thread and yes I agree with you about having to find zero point energy and other means to leave Mother Earth to heel.

I would love to have my own ute that hovers above the ground and is as quiet as a mouse and runs on free powerful energy, imagine no more roads to build, no more tire track, no more pollution from all the replacable parts on vehicles, no coolant to dump, no oil to dump, that is a dream of mine.

Well maybe not the stone age but at least we wont be pushing buttons to get what we want for a while(LOL),and my heads not pointy(he says feeling the top of his head)(LOL).

Haarp is a problem and I'm sure they are going to put it into overdrive before to long,(and they know exactly what they are doing) with any luck someone out there will deflect the wave of ELF straight back down upon their DUMBS and weld the doors shut so they can't get in Ha Ha Ha ! that will stuff them up, then they will have to deal with billions of very NOT happy citizens who have woken up to the BS they have been doing to the world for ages.

Well one can hope can't he?. So tell us any inside info you might have about our divine friends Darla because I'm not real keen about jumping on a shuttle and buzzing off to Mars or anywhere else for that matter!!

I think we all came here to do a job so to speak and our divine family is always with us to guide us and help us through the quogmire and if I leave this vehicle(body) behind then thats what was supposed to happen and I go off to do something else.

..Nick..

[Ivanhoe]

Thanks for the info Nick.
I agree, most people wouldn't be too concerned with how the waste (smoke, ash, etc.) from a steam plant would be handled.
I've always thought that even in todays manufacturing processes that filters should be applied to smokestacks and vents to reduce pollution, but ceo's are always looking at the bottom line per expences vesus profit. That's greed for ya!
I've got ideas about recycling steam vapor via distillation and using ash for cement additives (as long as it isn't too acidic) but that's just it, they're just ideas.
Actually I like your idea of using solar to heat boilers. So simple it's smart! LOL That's one application where mirrors could probably be used to great effect.
Hahaha Gives a whole new meaning to smoke and mirrors.
By the way, I believe you are in N.Z aren't you? Are you O.K. after the earthquake? Looks like Christchurch got hit pretty hard. Hope you and your's are allright!

[TWINNICK]

Thanks for the info Nick.
I agree, most people wouldn't be too concerned with how the waste (smoke, ash, etc.) from a steam plant would be handled.
I've always thought that even in todays manufacturing processes that filters should be applied to smokestacks and vents to reduce pollution, but ceo's are always looking at the bottom line per expences vesus profit. That's greed for ya!
I've got ideas about recycling steam vapor via distillation and using ash for cement additives (as long as it isn't too acidic) but that's just it, they're just ideas.
Actually I like your idea of using solar to heat boilers. So simple it's smart! LOL That's one application where mirrors could probably be used to great effect.
Hahaha Gives a whole new meaning to smoke and mirrors.
By the way, I believe you are in N.Z aren't you? Are you O.K. after the earthquake? Looks like Christchurch got hit pretty hard. Hope you and your's are allright!

G'day,

No I'm in Australia, yeh smoke and mirrors, I like that.

Mind you if the Ice age comes like they are saying we might not have to much sunlight to be used for heating water, and after fires caused by pole shift or earth changes burning forests we might not have anything left to burn so we are back to square one again.

According to Darla there is some new technology about to come into the mainstream market for us plebs to put to use, I am thinking it has to do with magnetics or universal energy, I hope so.

..Nick..

[Icecold]

Think Big....

It is not difficult to build a large Faraday cage as long as you follow the rules.

http://www.amper.com.tr/eng/faraday_cage-140.htm


That is a GARAGE SIZED Faraday cage is not rocket science.

Its just bigger.

I've seen large buildings in Florida that are ideal Faraday cages.

[slipknotted]

we would be f»«ked !

[TWINNICK]

Think Big....

It is not difficult to build a large Faraday cage as long as you follow the rules.

http://www.amper.com.tr/eng/faraday_cage-140.htm


That is a GARAGE SIZED Faraday cage is not rocket science.

Its just bigger.

I've seen large buildings in Florida that are ideal Faraday cages.


Thanks, I already have some organized, plus an old microwave oven for the small stuff.

..Nick..

[wolf_rt]

It is my understanding that a internal combustion engine can be modified with a rotary inlet valve and flash point boiler to run on steam, and it will be more efficient than internal combustion using the same fuel..(for the same power output. an average V8 could produce over 500hp on TWO cylinders using this system (there is no need to use all cylinders))

You may ask why this is not done more commonly......me too....

[Ivanhoe]

Hmmm,
My brother has an old (60's) Austin Healy 4 banger and trannie in the garage...... Might be worth experimenting with if I can talk him into letting me have it.
Plus he's a master tool and die maker. Used to work "hot" jobs for GM. I wonder...:cool:

[TWINNICK]

http://www.coatesengine.com/technology.html

G'day,

HHhmmmm, interesting idea, I just had a look at this^. Although I think getting 500+ HP out of two cylinders would put a hell of a lot of strain on the rest of the motor and drive train.

It is more efficient though, Yeh makes you wonder why every manufacturer of 2 and 4 stroke motors don't use this system, + less pollution as well, thanks for that one Wolf_rt.

..Nick..

[Bill Ryan]

-------

Hi, All:

This (link below) is by far the best summary I've ever seen about EMP protection facts and fallacies.

By reading this long, detailed article three times through (and it does take that to digest it all), I've learned more than I ever knew before. The author, Jerry Emanuelson, has been researching the subject for 30 years. Very highly recommended.

http://www.futurescience.com/emp/emp-protection.html

Here's a download link for the whole article -- do download and archive.

http://projectavalon.net/EMP_Electromagnetic_Pulse_Protection.pdf