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View Full Version : Solar Panels and a CME



TigaHawk
8th February 2011, 23:35
Things are realy kicking into gear for me and my "Make sure you're prepared and not left standing there like an idiot because the horse you were told was going to kick you in the face.... just kicked you in the face" plans.


Now I'm thinking of solar panels.


But to get the fold out panels or just the big bulky ones and go attach them to the roof???

The decision on which to get lies on what would happen if a CME hit.


As far as i am aware - the solar panel is just a panel of various materials arranged in such a way to optimise capture of sunlight. And that there should be no electronics in the solar panel itself - but the electronics would come in at the end of the cable that's connected to the solar panel - the inverter.



Can anyone else confirm, or know if a solar panel is CME-safe? So one only needs to keep a backup inverter tucked away in a Faraday cage??


tx

TWINNICK
9th February 2011, 12:21
G'day.
No NO NO, The panel is a conductor, it flows electrons through it.

If you get fold up panels, then if we get warning of incoming CME you can fold them up and put them in a faraday cage.

In a shed off the floor and not touching any metal or a metal container of some kind would be worth a shot.

But you have to insulate the panels from the metal container, like wrap them in plastic or cloth so it insulates the items you are trying to protect.

Don't have any wiring connected to anything as the pulse of the EMP will travel along the wire.

..Nick..

Ella
21st February 2011, 22:00
G'day.
No NO NO, The panel is a conductor, it flows electrons through it.

If you get fold up panels, then if we get warning of incoming CME you can fold them up and put them in a faraday cage.

In a shed off the floor and not touching any metal or a metal container of some kind would be worth a shot.

But you have to insulate the panels from the metal container, like wrap them in plastic or cloth so it insulates the items you are trying to protect.

Don't have any wiring connected to anything as the pulse of the EMP will travel along the wire.

..Nick..

Thanks Twinnick,
You may have helped me make a big decision. In Sweden we are currently being offered a 60% grant on solar panel systems for heating and electricity. I was considering investing in these at our bed and breakfast - it will be a large investment, with a partial bank loan too. Though the system would have saved us money in the long run - it seems like it may be not such a good idea if we are to be hit by some kind of EMP (is this the same as a CME?). I had assumed that they may survive an EMP, and that I would be able to produce electricity and heating in turbulent times. Oh well, guess I'll have to look into other options then.
Thanks,
Ella

john.d
22nd February 2011, 11:02
Hello , EMP's (electro magnetic pulse ) can be caused by CME's (coronal mass ejection ) ... They are not the same :) . CME's are basicly solar flares that can cause geomagnetic storms when they hit our planets magnetic shield .
Solar pannels have blocking diodes in them which im sure would fail in a large emp .
Not a bad idea to get a good system together though . If you get a large capacity battery bank and inverter/charger , there are various ways you can charge the batteries .

John

TWINNICK
22nd February 2011, 11:49
G'day.
No NO NO, The panel is a conductor, it flows electrons through it.

If you get fold up panels, then if we get warning of incoming CME you can fold them up and put them in a faraday cage.

In a shed off the floor and not touching any metal or a metal container of some kind would be worth a shot.

But you have to insulate the panels from the metal container, like wrap them in plastic or cloth so it insulates the items you are trying to protect.

Don't have any wiring connected to anything as the pulse of the EMP will travel along the wire.

..Nick..

Thanks Twinnick,
You may have helped me make a big decision. In Sweden we are currently being offered a 60% grant on solar panel systems for heating and electricity. I was considering investing in these at our bed and breakfast - it will be a large investment, with a partial bank loan too. Though the system would have saved us money in the long run - it seems like it may be not such a good idea if we are to be hit by some kind of EMP (is this the same as a CME?). I had assumed that they may survive an EMP, and that I would be able to produce electricity and heating in turbulent times. Oh well, guess I'll have to look into other options then.
Thanks,
Ella


g'day,

If the CME is large enough it can have an EMP effect, look on the web for what happened in the passed when the sun fired large CME's at the earth, 1800's telegraph damage, I think 2004 there was one that disrupted a large part of Canada as well as other places.

A large enough EMP caused by the sun or other Means( nuke weapon or device) has the ability to destroy all electronic devices in its path or radius, by the way 60% rebate! thats a very generous offer, makes me a bit sus as to why they would do that.

I am not going to say I think you should not take them up on the offer, although if the sun spits the big one at us like is predicted by many and you've got a whole heap of panels and wires and connections running into an inverter system and battery bank or even straight into the main grid, I do not have much confidence it will survive.

Mind you if the sun does spit a biggy at us I think we will have other things to worry about. Can you get portable fold up panels on the grant/rebate then you maybe able to save them in a faraday container and put them to use afterwards.

Maybe the govnt in Sweden has a plan to get as many buildings set up with panels as possible ( they have inside info) so there will be an independent system of power after the CME ? Who knows, I don't believe a panel on a roof is protected from CME or EMP if it is large enough.

I hope I helped and not hindered Ella.

..Nick..

greybeard
22nd February 2011, 11:56
The great thing about Avalon is that is is a resource where you can find virtually all that is life supporting .

This is down to the encouragement and foresight of Bill whom we owe a lot to in providing this forum free of charge..

Chris

Alien Ramone
22nd February 2011, 13:14
I bought a solar panel system recently and will be setting it up soon now that the weather is breaking. I think you get a lot more wattage for the money with the bulky panels vs the roll up ones. I have three 210 watt panels and will be setting them up to be portable on a cart. I will have them set up off the grid. You can get by much cheaper if you get a box that lets you hook the panels right into an outlet with that circuit dedicated to sending the electricity to the electric panel, but then it only cuts down on your electric cost while the grid is working, and won't help if the grid goes down. If a CME is coming there should be a couple days notice to protect the panels. There would be no warning for an EMP if an unexpected nuclear blast happened at the right height, so in that case you would need the panels protected in a Faraday cage. You can use an alumuninum wire mesh with .4" or .5" spaces. Copper will take 3 times as much current and is better, but more expensive. I read that it would cut the amount of sunlight down on the panel by about 15 to 25 percent. Metal sheds can help protect electronics. Metal cabinets and metal garbage cans lined with cardboard can help protect electronics. Anything plugged in might get jolted. Here is a link to a question I posed about CME and EMP preparation. You should be able to view it without being a member. One of the people that answered, fully protected his home from EMPs. He gives some good advice:
http://www.sodahead.com/living/what-is-your-cmeemp-preparedness-score/question-1493794/

wavydome
22nd February 2011, 13:20
It would seem logical for governance to take a large interest in the potential emergency conditions expected for CMEs. Why governance is largely silent, seems indicative of their lagging abilities and effectiveness generally. Or perhaps could it be their expectation to set off a few nuclear war heads, false-flagged? (Which destroy electronic devices within large geographic regions). Yet we also hear of reasons why nuclear aggressions are unlikely. So that the natural CME is the primary thing to prepare for on personal levels.

I have listened to a few engineer-physicist types discuss expected CME effects. Primary concerns are with large electrical-power grids. Saying their great concern was the potential burn out of large transformer stations. Where the replacement equipment was not stocked anywhere at all. That it could take long periods of time (years?) to have new equipment made for many grid-transformers, in case all were burned out. That petrol/gas/diesel pumping would be the largest concern in a global emergency. That fuel stations would have to run on small generators to run pumps, with long customer lines, delayed deliveries in all markets, etc...

Advisable Precautions? It should be highly advisable for these power distribution networks (including stations) to install giant surge suppressors, to primarily protect the large transformers. Furthermore, that people may protect their homes with newly-enlarged surge suppressors-- (Well, besides invoking selfsufficient-ish lifestyles). I just installed 3 large-surge-suppressor units, one for surge suppressing, another for lightning-arresting. These fit right in the back of fuse panels and can be self installed, where permitted by law. A third smaller device protects my phone wires..... Protect means, really, just to suppress large voltage and current pulses, which are generated very locally. So that home appliances that are still plugged in, are less likely to receive unwanted pulsations. However, one would do well to monitor (alternative-source) news of giant flares coming our way-- To disconnect expensive electronic devices from all wires.

Solar panels are my hope for maintaining power. (I'm rural). I doubt typical solar panels would suffer, providing that they are not tied into unprotected, mains, or electrical power networks. On my simple, off-grid-style solar system, i always used a circuit breaker as fuse to the panels, (double line breaker, not single), which i intend to disconnect at times of especially high risk. If we are independent minded, then we ought pay close attention to reports of CME effects. We just had some flares the other day without any effects. Without even a "northern light display". We need to get used to these occurrences and the strength and distribution of these. Remaining ready to pull plugs in case we hear of large immanent events. Carefully weigh in evidence of stricken areas. It might all pass without incidents, of this kind.

We also might instead see economic mass ejections with expensive electrical power bills resulting. Enough to rearrange priorities, like "living with the sun cycle", to reduce battery requirements. Get away from consumerism and better rationalize materialism.

Swami
22nd February 2011, 16:20
More info here:

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?1089-How-to-prepare-for-a-CME-in-the-European-theatre&highlight=EMP+nuclear

wavydome
22nd February 2011, 16:39
Other natural galactic energy storms are also worth considering...
Fascinating presenter: Pane Andov

Dial up users might access this text version:
http://www.box.net/shared/1hvnjrfd26

Broad band users might like the video version:
http://www.paneandov.com/2010/11/2012-equation-solved-extended-file/
http://www.paneandov.com/2010/11/2012-equation-solved-extended-file/

Ella
13th March 2011, 20:56
Thanks all,
This was great advice. I think I have pretty much decided not to go for this now. The whole system would have cost between 400 and 500 thousand krona, (i think that is between roughly 60 - 80 000 dollars) - even with the 60% it is still a huge investment for us (well it would mean getting more in debt with the bank). We've calculated it would repay itself in approx 5 years, but if it were to be rendered useless in a couple of years I wouldn't stop kicking myself. The system we were looking at was actually a hybrid system that produced hot water by cooling the panels - its the hot water we are after really as this is what heats the guesthouse (which is actually an old school). We currently have a wooden pellets system, and a back up system that runs on oil. Both are expensive. The grant is offered as it is a solar power based system (even though this isn't the primary use we would be using it for). However, in order to get the grant, the system must be connected to the grid. It is also very large, and bolted to a concrete foundation, so of course we would be totally unable to fold it up and put it in a faraday cage! ;) I'm now wondering though if our backup oil boiler/generator that heats the water could maybe use vegetable oil, preferably second hand oil from restaurants or something.... worth looking into. Though this wouldn't be much help if the power goes out as we still need electricity to power this.... Wowser, sometimes I realise how life would be a lot easier if I were more of a tech nerd.

Thanks peeps.
Ella.

Bill Ryan
13th December 2011, 15:52
-------

Hi, All:

This (link below) is by far the best summary I've ever seen about EMP protection facts and fallacies.

By reading this long, detailed article three times through (and it does take that to digest it all), I've learned more than I ever knew before. The author, Jerry Emanuelson, has been researching the subject for 30 years. Very highly recommended.

http://www.futurescience.com/emp/emp-protection.html

Here's a download link for the whole article -- do download and archive.

http://projectavalon.net/EMP_Electromagnetic_Pulse_Protection.pdf

Ron Mauer Sr
13th December 2011, 22:27
Thanks all,
This was great advice. I think I have pretty much decided not to go for this now. The whole system would have cost between 400 and 500 thousand krona, (i think that is between roughly 60 - 80 000 dollars) - even with the 60% it is still a huge investment for us (well it would mean getting more in debt with the bank). We've calculated it would repay itself in approx 5 years, but if it were to be rendered useless in a couple of years I wouldn't stop kicking myself.

Planning solar energy is best done by thinking *small*, choosing gas appliances instead of electric and accepting a non-wasteful life style.. A system designed to provide energy for large house with all electric appliances and no change in life style would be incredibly expensive.

My first solar energy project (1992 to 1999) was a 2700 sq ft house not connected to the grid. 700 watts of solar panels (14 solar modules of 50 watts each) provided solar charging power for Trojan T-105 batteries. The batteries provided power to a 12VDC 2400 watt Trace (now Xantrex) DR2412 inverter. Estimated cost of material was less than $8000.

There was no automatic dishwasher or air conditioning. Domestic hot water heater and direct vent space heaters were powered by propane. A generous amount of south facing glass provided free passive solar heating. The washing machine was standard and the clothes dryer used propane for heat and an electric motor to tumble the clothes. The refrigerator was a high efficiency 12VDC 12 cubic foot Sunfrost RF12 ($2359 plus $50 crating fee).

Peak electric loads occurred while clothes washing, drying clothes and pumping water all at the same time. Without using the generator, the battery-inverter system had enough power to start the submersible water pump while the washing machine and dryer were running and a few fluorescent lights were on, but only if the batteries were not low of charge. A generator was needed to provide power during times of peak power demand. Originally the generator was a 3500 watt Honda. It turned out that it was working near maximum capacity during times of peak power demand: pumping water, running the washer and dryer, and charging the batteries.

Use an adequately sized generator. A 5000 watt generator replaced the stressed out 3500 watt generator after the smaller generator failed.

Looking back, I would estimate the generator was used an average of 2 or 3 hours per day. That would not be acceptable now considering the price of fuel today.

Heavy long term electric loads (vacuum cleaner, etc) should be done when the generator is online.

http://selfsufficiency.files.wordpress.com/2008/10/img435.jpg?w=300

Ella
19th December 2011, 20:55
Thanks all,
This was great advice. I think I have pretty much decided not to go for this now. The whole system would have cost between 400 and 500 thousand krona, (i think that is between roughly 60 - 80 000 dollars) - even with the 60% it is still a huge investment for us (well it would mean getting more in debt with the bank). We've calculated it would repay itself in approx 5 years, but if it were to be rendered useless in a couple of years I wouldn't stop kicking myself.

Planning solar energy is best done by thinking *small*, choosing gas appliances instead of electric and accepting a non-wasteful life style.. A system designed to provide energy for large house with all electric appliances and no change in life style would be incredibly expensive.

My first solar energy project (1992 to 1999) was a 2700 sq ft house not connected to the grid. 700 watts of solar panels (14 solar modules of 50 watts each) provided solar charging power for Trojan T-105 batteries. The batteries provided power to a 12VDC 2400 watt Trace (now Xantrex) DR2412 inverter. Estimated cost of material was less than $8000.

There was no automatic dishwasher or air conditioning. Domestic hot water heater and direct vent space heaters were powered by propane. A generous amount of south facing glass provided free passive solar heating. The washing machine was standard and the clothes dryer used propane for heat and an electric motor to tumble the clothes. The refrigerator was a high efficiency 12VDC 12 cubic foot Sunfrost RF12 ($2359 plus $50 crating fee).

Peak electric loads occurred while clothes washing, drying clothes and pumping water all at the same time. Without using the generator, the battery-inverter system had enough power to start the submersible water pump while the washing machine and dryer were running and a few fluorescent lights were on, but only if the batteries were not low of charge. A generator was needed to provide power during times of peak power demand. Originally the generator was a 3500 watt Honda. It turned out that it was working near maximum capacity during times of peak power demand: pumping water, running the washer and dryer, and charging the batteries.

Use an adequately sized generator. A 5000 watt generator replaced the stressed out 3500 watt generator after the smaller generator failed.

Looking back, I would estimate the generator was used an average of 2 or 3 hours per day. That would not be acceptable now considering the price of fuel today.

Heavy long term electric loads (vacuum cleaner, etc) should be done when the generator is online.

http://selfsufficiency.files.wordpress.com/2008/10/img435.jpg?w=300

Hi!
Thanks for the advice. I totally agree with you, our small house we had before we made this investment would have got us through most extreme situations, we had our own well, it was possible to heat the house purely with wood, we could make food on the wood burning stove etc. But then things changed and we got an opportunity to by this old school that is a guesthouse. It then made it possible for me to work for myself. There are also 3 appartments, one where we live and the other two we rent out. I guess in the back of my mind I want this place to be as 'self reliant' as possible in time of emergency (if there is one) so that we can offer our friends somewhere to stay if they need it. The biggest problem would be heating it in the winter, which is why I was interested in these hybrid systems that warmed water. But I have changed my mind now. The only essential electricity is to keep the boiler running - everything else is just a luxury in my opinion. We are currently giving our apartment an overhaul and putting in wood burning stoves etc so that we don't have to rely on the central system if anything happens. I just basically wanted to be able to offer others somewhere to stay in an emergency if they needed it.
What I will miss the most from our old house is our well. The water was amazing - clean Spring water - you could taste its goodness! Here we have mains water - so that is something else I want to fix as soon as I can, a good back up water supply.
Anyhow, thanks for your reply. Looks like I've got some work to do!
Ella