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Hiram
22nd February 2011, 23:06
Positive intentions do NOT ensure positive outcomes.

Simply beginning an endeavor from a point of love and well-wishes for all, will not guarantee that your actions won’t produce an undesired consequence.

The world is rife with examples of well-intentioned people who have caused great havoc in the natural order of things. A simple example of this phenomenon would be people who feed bears…out of love and compassion for the bear, presumably.

What that well-intentioned person doesn’t understand (because they are acting out of well-intentioned ignorance); is that they are now creating an animal which associates people with a food source. Not a good combination; and one which will undoubtedly produce a negative outcome for other people as well as the bears.

Their Intention was irrelevant to the outcome.

When you make decisions out of ignorance, a positive intent is no fail-safe against disaster.

Ignorance must be addressed first, and then directed positive intent applied.


Within every group, there is usually an individual proclaiming that:
“The time for discussion is over…it’s time to ACT!”

Invariably, that will be the person who understands the situation the least.

Opinions are welcome.

Ilie Pandia
22nd February 2011, 23:50
Hello Hiram,

I have pondered the issue you have presented often... and in my opinion you are correct.

The problem is that when I act (just like many around me) I do not think I am ignorant... I usually do my best to look at all the angles (as far as my awareness allows me to...)

So the question is... how do you address ignorance first? Since it is so hard to see your own and only to easy to spot it in others...

I could cite from spiritual teachings that you should first become "awaken" and then act out of consciousness and in harmony with all that is. This is very nice saying (and probably Greybeard will agree :P) but I can not say I fully grasp it...

Another point... you act out of your best intentions at the moment and then you look at the not so happy consequences and learn... perhaps sometimes your can not loose your ignorance by discussing about it; you have to bang your head into the wall so that you will not be able to ignore it anymore.

Probably "teachers" could help by saying.... "hey, pay attention to what you are doing... there may be a wall you do not see yet"

greybeard
23rd February 2011, 00:03
According to Dr David Hawkins who had the biggest Psychiatric practice in America.

Human beings are incapable of telling truth from falsehood. That is a professional view.

He wrote several ground breaking books on the subject he completely revolutionized Psychiatric practice in America, well some followed him traditionalist no
He thought out of the box and was only interested in what worked. He advocated acupuncture for certain things and some complimentary practices.

http://www.veritaspub.com/product_info.php?cPath=47_48&products_id=153

The link is for the book Truth vs Falsehood, have a look at about the author his history is impressive to say the least.
He has helped healed and cured many thousands of people.

Guibility
Gobels said Tell a lie often enough and people will believe it.
Good Germans went to war because they were mislead into believing that they were doing it for the good of the fatherland.
Hitler was charismatic believable a vegetarian who loved dogs.
Millions died.

Hiram
23rd February 2011, 00:14
how do you address ignorance first? Since it is so hard to see your own and only to easy to spot it in others...


Dear Pixel,

Thank you so much for opening a door for the conversation. The answer to both of your two points lies in the single sentence above.

I would surmise, that if you are making a decision under the assumption that you are not ignorant....you are mistaken.

Addressing your ignorance...in essence, is identifying your ignorance. The more you identify your areas of ignorance and attempt to elucidate them...the better your decisions will be.

It's about being fair to the universe. It's about not making false assumptions...concerning your intent...and its ability to ensure a reciprocal outcome.

Negative consequences are a fantastic learning tool, to this I agree wholeheartedly.

But a child doesn't have to run into traffic and be struck by a car in order to learn that isn't a good idea.


Postscript: Thanks Chris...I believe in Dr. Dawkins thesis above.

Carmody
23rd February 2011, 00:23
But a child doesn't have to run into traffic and be struck by a car in order to learn that isn't a good idea.

I've seen that happen. I watched a 5 year old die as I had no idea that my intuition was that good, or that accurate, or that it even existed at all.

MariaDine
23rd February 2011, 00:26
According to Dr David Hawkins who had the biggest Psychiatric practice in America.

Human beings are incapable of telling truth from falsehood. That is a professional view.

He wrote several ground breaking books on the subject he completely revolutionized Psychiatric practice in America, well some followed him traditionalist no
He thought out of the box and was only interested in what worked. He advocated acupuncture for certain things and some complimentary practices.

http://www.veritaspub.com/product_info.php?cPath=47_48&products_id=153

The link is for the book Truth vs Falsehood, have a look at about the author his history is impressive to say the least.
He has helped healed and cured many thousands of people.

Guibility
Gobels said Tell a lie often enough and people will believe it.
Good Germans went to war because they were mislead into believing that they were doing it for the good of the fatherland.
Hitler was charismatic believable a vegetarian who loved dogs.
Millions died.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3PAW7zjgPw&feature=related

LOL !!!

sepia
23rd February 2011, 00:33
It's about being fair to the universe. It's about not making false assumptions...concerning your intent...and its ability to ensure a reciprocal outcome.




...it made my life easier when I understood that




a positive intended action has positive and negative outcome

and a negative intended action has a positive and a negative outcome

Some people will be happy - some will feel hurt, sad, neglected, put down, angry... about the result.


So I act according to my higher self - as best as I know - and agree:




Negative consequences are a fantastic learning tool, to this I agree wholeheartedly.


YES !

Hiram
23rd February 2011, 00:41
[INDENT][INDENT]
a positive intended action has positive and negative outcome

and a negative intended action has a positive and a negative outcome



This made my life much easier once I realized it as well Sepia! Thank you so much for writing that.

It's something very fundamental to existence. Realizing and accepting it with grace--this I look at as a degree of maturity.

My intent with starting this thread, was to address those (multiple, multiple posters) who assured me during the directed intent experiment----that they had no concerns, because they had only sent out energy of light and love (despite the fact that they were holding polarized objects in either hand) and they were certain no harm could come of this because their intentions were good.

I think this conversation is the one that needed to happen then, before such an action was taken.

Ilie Pandia
23rd February 2011, 00:48
But a child doesn't have to run into traffic and be struck by a car in order to learn that isn't a good idea.


Here is a question for you: how do you prevent the child from running into traffic? And your solution made the child less or more ignorant?

Hiram
23rd February 2011, 01:09
Ignorance is the absence of knowledge.

Knowledge is data.

Intelligence is the manipulator of knowledge/Data.

Wisdom is the desire to not misapply such.

When you have physically restrained a child from entering traffic, you have protected the child from physical harm. Because you possess data the child does not: The knowledge of what will happen if the child enters traffic.

When the child is old enough to have the intelligence to handle that knowledge. You wouldn't need to physically restrain the child, verbal transference of knowledge tends to work very well at a certain point of development.

The child's intelligence would facilitate him acting on his own behalf.

Restraining a child when they are very young provides no data...except that perhaps mother doesn't want me to do such and such. The child then applys that knowledge against the bulwark of trust that has been constructed between mother and child.

Ilie Pandia
23rd February 2011, 01:30
Ignorance is the absence of knowledge.

Knowledge is data.

Intelligence is the manipulator of knowledge/Data.

Wisdom is the desire to not misapply such.

When you have physically restrained a child from entering traffic, you have protected the child from physical harm. Because you possess data the child does not: The knowledge of what will happen if the child enters traffic.

When the child is old enough to have the intelligence to handle that knowledge. You wouldn't need to physically restrain the child, verbal transference of knowledge tends to work very well at a certain point of development.

The child's intelligence would facilitate him acting on his own behalf.

Restraining a child when they are very young provides no data...except that perhaps mother doesn't want me to do such and such. The child then applys that knowledge against the bulwark of trust that has been constructed between mother and child.

Hello Hiram,

I had full intention to participate in that experiment, but I missed it (coincidence?)

I am indeed ignorant when it comes to telepathy, remote healing or sending energy to someone. I have no practical experience with this, but I am very very curious.

You are correct in saying that even with my best of intentions, myself (and the others) could have been used to power a psychic weapon of sorts. You have made me aware of this now!

However there is a flip side of this coin: aren’t we all every day instruments in the economic system and in our government? Aren’t we fueling our cars with cheap oil bombed out of a “third world country”? Where do you draw the line?

Can you honestly say that you are aware of all the ramifications of your actions or inactions? Shouldn’t you trust that “the other” is able to protect himself/herself from some of the unforeseen consequences? Is there really such a thing as good and bad consequences at higher levels of existence? (the level of the immortal soul for example).

You say the parent has more knowledge/data that the child… and I say in reply: the parent is sometimes more conditioned than the child, and his “data” is corrupted. Of course that your car example and my reply are extremes of the same aspect.

I tend to agree with Sepia: your action (inaction) has consequences for you and others, good and bad (if you want to polarize). And unless you realize you are “God” or “One with everything” I see no escape from this.

Therefore I will choose to act (or not) based on the limited data/knowledge/intelligence that I have at this moment… and then living with the consequences of that.

And another quick question: How may times does a parent say: “Do this because I know better, I am older and wiser?”, “Do not marry that person…”, “Do not enter that business…”, “Do not quit your job even if do not like it…”

OK, this was a long one, but is an important subject for me ;).

Hiram
23rd February 2011, 02:15
Could you have been made into a psychic weapon?

The possibility existed. Regardless, the collective intent exercise was not explained, the target was not given, nor were people instructed to send out their best intent. Yet despite all of this, around 100 people agreed to participate before even hearing what they would be asked to do. Will you all help me with something? "Yes". As much as I admire people for their charity, perhaps they should have been a bit more chary.

Even after it was complete, they had no idea what they had done. When queried about this they replied: It doesn't matter, I'm a good person and my intentions were good, so it's all good. Besides, I trust Atticus.

And that is really what it comes down to doesn't it? Trust.

Trust based on what however? We trust those close to us through experience, and sometimes intuition. The child obeys the parent and does not go into the street even though they don't know why--because they trust the parent.

Can we truly know the ramifications of any of our actions?

That is an entirely different discussion. The world of absolute reality doesn't apply to the game we are playing here..the illusion we are engaged in. Ultimate reality says...let the child run into traffic, and what will be will be. He's an eternal soul and no harm may come. But we are not playing on that level. We are engaged within the illusion..and the astral realms are another level. Even they are not engaged with Ultimate reality.

Is anyone aware of these things...whether you actions will prove good or bad?

No one ever is. That's where wisdom should come into play.

You wrote:
"Therefore I will choose to act (or not) based on the limited data/knowledge/intelligence that I have at this moment… and then living with the consequences of that."

I cannot fault you for that. My post simply lets you know: If you believe that because you have good intentions...your outcomes will be desirable for you---you haven't thought about it enough yet.

Lastly you asked:
And another quick question: How may times does a parent say: “Do this because I know better, I am older and wiser?”, “Do not marry that person…”, “Do not enter that business…”, “Do not quit your job even if do not like it…”

The answer is:

I don't know how many times your parent..or parents you know have said such things. I can tell you that no intelligent parent would say them. It illustrates my point.
Another great example of how someone (your parent perhaps) would say "Do this because I know better" with full good intentions...not knowing that a teenage child would lose respect for their authority. Thus a negative outcome from good intentions...borne out of ignorance about parenting.


****PostScript: We are free individuals and can do as we please. I have no objections there. I have objections when someone uses the faulty logic that nothing ill will come of good intentions...as history has proven this to be a terrible fallacy.

9eagle9
23rd February 2011, 03:16
Chris's wisdom never ceases to amaze me. I probably haven't told you that as I should but you sometimes stop me in dead in my tracks.

¤=[Post Update]=¤

Chris's wisdom never ceases to amaze me. I probably haven't told you that as I should but you sometimes stop me in dead in my tracks.

Disclaimer: there was no intention attached to that remark!





According to Dr David Hawkins who had the biggest Psychiatric practice in America.

Human beings are incapable of telling truth from falsehood. That is a professional view.

He wrote several ground breaking books on the subject he completely revolutionized Psychiatric practice in America, well some followed him traditionalist no
He thought out of the box and was only interested in what worked. He advocated acupuncture for certain things and some complimentary practices.

http://www.veritaspub.com/product_info.php?cPath=47_48&products_id=153

The link is for the book Truth vs Falsehood, have a look at about the author his history is impressive to say the least.
He has helped healed and cured many thousands of people.

Guibility
Gobels said Tell a lie often enough and people will believe it.
Good Germans went to war because they were mislead into believing that they were doing it for the good of the fatherland.
Hitler was charismatic believable a vegetarian who loved dogs.
Millions died.

Arrowwind
23rd February 2011, 04:12
Odd that I come upon this topic tonight. I was in a store today and the sales woman and my husband were having a conversation... I'm not sure what my husband said but her response was "the road to hell is paved with good intentions"
It stuck with me for the rest of the day as I went out to photohgraph Zion national park so I've been thinking about it quite a bit.

Then I got into remembering tne time I went to visit a chinese master of the Tao. He asked me where I was from and at that time it was California.. he said... ah, yes, that is the place filled with black magic.


It kind of stunned me what he said... so I asked for clarification. He said that when ever you try to control the universe though the will, though intent, it is magic... and since most intent is for self serving puroposes it then becomes black magic.

What I came to find out later in this line of thinking is that in the Tao all things exist. If you call in other than what you spontaneously create from your center of being from being within the moment then you are interfering with the Tao and you fall out of rhythm with the universe, and hence create a lot of karma for your self.

I do not accept that all people are incapable of knowing a lie from the truth... but certainly it is true for most. I feel that the inability comes from being lied to. Lying to a child confuses their receptors for truth and the most common instigator of this negative programing is the church... any church or religous dogma that a child might be subject to. The get truely confused and loose the ability to discern. Hence lying was always a big deal in our household... consequently I now have two sons who tell me much more than I'd care to know. Just like a childs sensitivity to the etheric planes is shut down from denial and lying so is their ability to discern for the truth

seems we as a society are so ever busy creating the monsters we so distain

ponda
23rd February 2011, 06:15
Positive intentions do NOT ensure positive outcomes.

Simply beginning an endeavor from a point of love and well-wishes for all, will not guarantee that your actions won’t produce an undesired consequence.

The world is rife with examples of well-intentioned people who have caused great havoc in the natural order of things. A simple example of this phenomenon would be people who feed bears…out of love and compassion for the bear, presumably.

What that well-intentioned person doesn’t understand (because they are acting out of well-intentioned ignorance); is that they are now creating an animal which associates people with a food source. Not a good combination; and one which will undoubtedly produce a negative outcome for other people as well as the bears.

Their Intention was irrelevant to the outcome.

When you make decisions out of ignorance, a positive intent is no fail-safe against disaster.

Ignorance must be addressed first, and then directed positive intent applied.


Within every group, there is usually an individual proclaiming that:
“The time for discussion is over…it’s time to ACT!”

Invariably, that will be the person who understands the situation the least.

Opinions are welcome.

Interesting

So what might be the neutral way around this conundrum ?

Say could one just try to always do the right thing with no conscious intent and just go with the flow ?

Scott
23rd February 2011, 06:43
It is my opinion that a percentage of people working with positive Intent do not take into account how their intention may affect other people,places and events.
As a simplistic example; I may Intend to get the best possible parking spot but perhaps there may be a disabled person who Needs it more.
My wife is of the opinion that you throw a positive intent out into the Universe and after that it's none of your business "How" or in "What time frame" the Universe responds.

Scott

ponda
23rd February 2011, 06:53
It is my opinion that a percentage of people working with positive Intent do not take into account how their intention may affect other people,places and events.
As a simplistic example; I may Intend to get the best possible parking spot but perhaps there may be a disabled person who Needs it more.
My wife is of the opinion that you throw a positive intent out into the Universe and after that it's none of your business "How" or in "What time frame" the Universe responds.

Scott


Yes it appears that individual positive intent at our level might be more controllable from a consequential perspective whilst group positive intent could be more erratic.

I suspect that without accurate foresight of possible consequences from some positive intent that it could well indeed have some karma risk attached to it.

cheers

wolf_rt
23rd February 2011, 07:39
You are correct in saying that even with my best of intentions, myself (and the others) could have been used to power a psychic weapon of sorts. You have made me aware of this now!

However there is a flip side of this coin: aren’t we all every day instruments in the economic system and in our government? Aren’t we fueling our cars with cheap oil bombed out of a “third world country”? Where do you draw the line?


I've been thinking about this recently,

Never give you power away.

If you are in full possesion of all the relevent facts, then you can help or assist in any way you desire. (this applys to all facets of life)

Giving power to others, trusted or not, is how we got in this mess in the first place.

If you give away your power, you give away your your will, your consiousness even... if somebody does something with the 'power' you gave them and you dont like it? you have no recourse, you gave away your right to be angry.

It was my impression that 'charles' did this as a test to see how many would fall down the exact same hole that has lead humanity to where it is today.

so people, please dont relinqish your will to others. we dont need leaders now, we need people who are prepared to make there own decisions!

Chuck
23rd February 2011, 07:40
Thank you Hiram for very thought provoking ideas. I agree with you. Just because the intent is good doesn't guarantee a good outcome.

I believe that everyone is motivated by what they think is the right thing. Everyone rationalizes their actions. Even the most evil person you can think of, thinks he/she is doing the right thing in their mind.

Richard Bach once wrote “The mark of your ignorance is the depth of your belief in injustice and tragedy. What the caterpillar calls the end of the world, the master calls a butterfly.” Indeed in the greater scheme of things it is all a matter of ...becoming...

So I think a great lesson, at least for me, is to allow, allow, allow. I don't think there is such a thing as ultimate truth/knowledge. For any act has a myriad of outcomes both good and bad.

Thank you for reminding me however that I ALWAYS act out of ignorance... lol. I like what pixel suggests though ... to be responsible to the best of my abilities and knowledge for my actions.

sepia
23rd February 2011, 08:23
Could you have been made into a psychic weapon?

The possibility existed. Regardless, the collective intent exercise was not explained, the target was not given, nor were people instructed to send out their best intent. Yet despite all of this, around 100 people agreed to participate before even hearing what they would be asked to do. Will you all help me with something? "Yes". As much as I admire people for their charity, perhaps they should have been a bit more chary.

Even after it was complete, they had no idea what they had done. When queried about this they replied: It doesn't matter, I'm a good person and my intentions were good, so it's all good. Besides, I trust Atticus.

I couldn't agree more.

When it comes to "Healing" and "Meaning-well" many stop thinking completely.

araucaria
23rd February 2011, 08:39
It's about being fair to the universe. It's about not making false assumptions...concerning your intent...and its ability to ensure a reciprocal outcome.




...it made my life easier when I understood that




a positive intended action has positive and negative outcome

and a negative intended action has a positive and a negative outcome

Some people will be happy - some will feel hurt, sad, neglected, put down, angry... about the result.


So I act according to my higher self - as best as I know - and agree:




Negative consequences are a fantastic learning tool, to this I agree wholeheartedly.


YES !

I couldn't agree more
'There is nothing more terrifying than ignorance in action'. Phil Spector

Luke
23rd February 2011, 11:28
There is a matter of Knowing how your river Flow.

Every single "second" we construct the past , so the Now will be possible.

We are the ones that create the borders of reality.

So, the reality is only as "good" as we can imagine it.

Such is the way of things, that intents we hold are "filled in" with things that make them possible. Intent can be good, but the "scaffold" that supports it is quite another matter .. nevertheless, where there is intent , the "scaffold" made according to local rules will follow, like it or not.

It is the question of "seen and unseen" is very well known in circles of true economists, just to mention the essays by F. Bastiat from early 1800's. (http://mises.org/daily/3860)

In a way, there are things we choose not to see ...
And this is also an Intent.

With true Knowledge comes the ability to see all the possibilities in given moment.. and those that come out of this possibilities in next moment.. and so on and so on.. the whole volume of Time-Space.

Navigate it seeing whole of the spectrum.. not only the one path we believe to be "true"!

-----
Sidenote: what a relief to read a thread such as this!

9eagle9
23rd February 2011, 12:22
Intentions have a tendency to raise a lot of passions, however true healing is based more in compassion. Passion is ego based and compassion is spiritual based. People tend to confuse passion with compassion.

Intentions usually tend to be ego directed.

The word "sacred' seems to be left out of a lot intentions.

Intentions seems to grow more haphazardly snarled the greater intention. An intention of getting someone a cup of tea has less disastrous results than the person who insists their intention is to save the world. One is thoughtful and the other is impositional.

Intentions are sometimes not our own and an insinuator is necessary to shift people into mode. Re: We now have a forum filled with transmutational energy workers where the day before there were none. One wonders when they had time to learn the ethics involved in such endeavors. ONe wonders who had the intention of becoming a healer prior to having the notion insinuated on them.

A great many people can shift energy but not a whole lot of people have been up down the rough and pitted road that composes true healing intention.

A good intention is automatically assigned as GOD"S PURPOSE.

One can have a goal without attaching an intention to it. Intention becomes expectation. If one expects a predicted pathway to a result and the Higher Good intervenes to say otherwise people get disappointed. I have observed the Great Good intervening on a number of occasions in this forum and seen the anger resulting from it...


The act of allowing the greater good for all involved requires no intention, but is probably the greatest act of humility. Performing parlor tricks under a facade of humbleness isn't really humility. There's an intention attached there. A magician performs to bedazzle, impress an audience but the audience really hadn't advanced in a spiritual way.

Luke
23rd February 2011, 12:33
(...)If one expects a predicted pathway to a result and the Higher Good intervenes to say otherwise people get disappointed. (...)
Keyword is predicted.

Once you predict an outcome, you are slave of it. You collapse the wave, freeze it.

Seeing all the outcomes, and plot the path while holding ALL the possibilities open/fluid, now , this is one hell of the trick :)

Stepping outside yourself and let the energies naturally balance, without judgement.

Unfortunately, we are learned to micromanage stuff while being ignorant of the "macro"

Arrowwind
23rd February 2011, 15:11
Could there not be Soul Intent?

that stands behind the very purpose of your existence?

And is it possible to become aware of and aligned with soul intent?

Patrikas
23rd February 2011, 15:22
Absolutley ..........that is the Purpose and Value

Hiram
23rd February 2011, 17:21
Re: We now have a forum filled with transmutational energy workers where the day before there were none. One wonders when they had time to learn the ethics involved in such endeavors. ONe wonders who had the intention of becoming a healer prior to having the notion insinuated on them.


This quote had me laughing! Thanks 9eagle9!!

Arrowind also writes above: " Could there not be Soul Intent?

that stands behind the very purpose of your existence?

And is it possible to become aware of and aligned with soul intent?"



I think this is a good point to bring up (and I'm sure many such as Sepia can comment in greater detail on this) that once you have shucked the physical human body and entered a level of the astral...many of these intent games do not end. "Dying" to an Earth body doesn't seem to open up ultimate reality persee.

Once dead, Alot of the rules change quickly, and the level of honesty is the first to go...as radiant beings can't hide their areas of light and darkness. These wounds are there for anyone to see in that realm.

It is my opinion however, that a whole new set of mysteries present themselves in that realm, and the wonder and sublime beauty of the creator is just as magnificent to behold...with a whole new set of sensory perceptions.

Re-membering, and being mindful of thoughts and intent is likely to be vital in that realm. Better get started here, inside the timestream, rather than waiting IMO.


Postscript: "is it possible to become aware of and aligned with soul intent?"

That has always been my goal:-)

Selene
23rd February 2011, 17:54
Absolutely wonderful thread, Hiram! Bingo! Thank you so much for posting this.

I am taking the liberty of quoting your post #12 in full length here. It is worth re-reading:


Could you have been made into a psychic weapon?

The possibility existed. Regardless, the collective intent exercise was not explained, the target was not given, nor were people instructed to send out their best intent. Yet despite all of this, around 100 people agreed to participate before even hearing what they would be asked to do. Will you all help me with something? "Yes". As much as I admire people for their charity, perhaps they should have been a bit more chary.

Even after it was complete, they had no idea what they had done. When queried about this they replied: It doesn't matter, I'm a good person and my intentions were good, so it's all good. Besides, I trust Atticus.

And that is really what it comes down to doesn't it? Trust.

Trust based on what however? We trust those close to us through experience, and sometimes intuition. The child obeys the parent and does not go into the street even though they don't know why--because they trust the parent.

Can we truly know the ramifications of any of our actions?

That is an entirely different discussion. The world of absolute reality doesn't apply to the game we are playing here..the illusion we are engaged in. Ultimate reality says...let the child run into traffic, and what will be will be. He's an eternal soul and no harm may come. But we are not playing on that level. We are engaged within the illusion..and the astral realms are another level. Even they are not engaged with Ultimate reality.

Is anyone aware of these things...whether you actions will prove good or bad?

No one ever is. That's where wisdom should come into play.

You wrote:
"Therefore I will choose to act (or not) based on the limited data/knowledge/intelligence that I have at this moment… and then living with the consequences of that."

I cannot fault you for that. My post simply lets you know: If you believe that because you have good intentions...your outcomes will be desirable for you---you haven't thought about it enough yet.

Lastly you asked:
And another quick question: How may times does a parent say: “Do this because I know better, I am older and wiser?”, “Do not marry that person…”, “Do not enter that business…”, “Do not quit your job even if do not like it…”

The answer is:

I don't know how many times your parent..or parents you know have said such things. I can tell you that no intelligent parent would say them. It illustrates my point.
Another great example of how someone (your parent perhaps) would say "Do this because I know better" with full good intentions...not knowing that a teenage child would lose respect for their authority. Thus a negative outcome from good intentions...borne out of ignorance about parenting.


****PostScript: We are free individuals and can do as we please. I have no objections there. I have objections when someone uses the faulty logic that nothing ill will come of good intentions...as history has proven this to be a terrible fallacy.

Many thanks again,

Selene

Darla Ken Pearce
23rd February 2011, 18:50
So far, I've read all of the posts here on this most interesting topic. Each of you has a valid point of view. The thing about truth is that it is subjective and by this I mean it is viewed upon our own particular canvas made of all our life's experiences, religious dogma, programming, and tweeked perspective and illusion. Like fingerprints, no two are the same. Are we having fun, yet?

Much can be said and examples given. For instance, nurses and doctors and military personnel played a significant role in distributing toxic vaccines, the aids virus, deadly viruses, as part of a larger genocide agenda and they did this in the U.S. as well as around the world, deadly ~ in large part to people of third world nations. The intent of the distributors and enablers was of the highest regard and many of them would keel over and have heart attacks if they knew what they were a part of..... Should they be held accountable for it? What is the truth here. It may not matter to us whether we can detect it or not. But I can tell you villagers in Africa run when they see the U. N. vehicles drive up with WHO members and they run and hide wherever they can. They are intuitive and they know that death follows these so called good-doers wheverever they may go ~ sharing their tools of death and destruction.

There is a universal law of intent ~ the nurses and doctors will not be punished for it. It was their belief they were doing good. Whether they missed the signs and were stupid is not an issue. Once you begin to lie, it nearly always gets out of control and runs rampant for a time. The lies we've been told are only now coming forth. There is no one in this forum who will not have their socks knocked off about the information that has been withheld from us (Charles may or may not be exempt) and that is yet to see the light of day. Talk about truth all you want but remember we each can see only our own truth...that is until we see the light and then we have a special "knowing" ; ) xoxox

Peace of Mind
23rd February 2011, 19:20
Positive intentions have always worked well for me. Anytime I do anything for anyone/thing…I have to reflect on the out come first. What are the benefits, what are the pros, what are the cons? There is always more than one way to do something. A lack of love is a lack of commitment; this is often seen in the smallest of minds because the desire to get it done is not there…therefore they will most likely come up with the undesired results. To love is to be responsible; the universe will do the rest. Just be real. If you think (for 1 second) you will have problems…then so be it. It’s truly an exercise…but most don’t like to stay in shape, they are inpatient with their own thoughts. It’s probably not entirely their fault thou, because people are trained to be busy, rarely taken the time to ponder. When they do, they call that moment boredom…and opt to do something that requires very little thought. The state of the world is proof of that.

Peace

Zook
23rd February 2011, 19:37
That being said ... positive outcomes resulting from directed (e.g. positive) intent ... are more probable than positive outcomes arrived by random process.

Which means that in any nonrandom process - as is human organization - positive intentions are a necessary condition if not always a sufficient condition for positive outcomes. Sufficiency of positive intentions (to deliver positive outcomes) ... is boosted by knowledge and wise men, and burdened by ignorance and fools.

:smow::typing:

ps: Where the wise fear to tread, the fools rush in ... is virtualy isomorphic with ... the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

araucaria
23rd February 2011, 19:39
There is a matter of Knowing how your river Flow.

Every single "second" we construct the past , so the Now will be possible.


Yes, and seeing this in terms of multiple timelines, by staying focussed, we can eliminate for others those timelines where they do us (and themselves) harm.

This is what inspires me not to abstain in situations where I might rather do so for lack of sufficient knowledge. For I am also sure that sometimes such ignorance has led to positive outcomes. Total abstinence is very tempting too.

Ilie Pandia
23rd February 2011, 19:41
That being said ... positive outcomes resulting from directed (e.g. positive) intent ... are more probable than positive outcomes arrived by random process.

Which means that in any nonrandom process - as is human organization - positive intentions are a necessary condition if not always a sufficient condition for positive outcomes. Sufficiency of positive intentions (to deliver positive outcomes) ... is boosted by knowledge and wise men, and burdened by ignorance and fools.

:smow::typing:

ps: Where the wise fear to tread, the fools rush in ... is virtualy isomorphic with ... the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Hey Zook, I think if you really try, you will be able to express your post with math logic symbols! :tape2::peep:

Beth
23rd February 2011, 19:46
Hey Zook, I think if you really try, you will be able to express your post with math logic symbols! :tape2::peep:

LOL, now that cracked me up. You even got a little snort from me :lol:

9eagle9
23rd February 2011, 19:50
Yes. Its the difference between thought manifestation and Spiritual manifestation.


Could there not be Soul Intent?

that stands behind the very purpose of your existence?

And is it possible to become aware of and aligned with soul intent?

Steph
23rd February 2011, 19:52
So far, I've read all of the posts here on this most interesting topic. Each of you has a valid point of view. The thing about truth is that it is subjective and by this I mean it is viewed upon our own particular canvas made of all our life's experiences, religious dogma, programming, and tweeked perspective and illusion. Like fingerprints, no two are the same. Are we having fun, yet?

Much can be said and examples given. For instance, nurses and doctors and military personnel played a significant role in distributing toxic vaccines, the aids virus, deadly viruses, as part of a larger genocide agenda and they did this in the U.S. as well as around the world, deadly ~ in large part to people of third world nations. The intent of the distributors and enablers was of the highest regard and many of them would keel over and have heart attacks if they knew what they were a part of..... Should they be held accountable for it? What is the truth here. It may not matter to us whether we can detect it or not. But I can tell you villagers in Africa run when they see the U. N. vehicles drive up with WHO members and they run and hide wherever they can. They are intuitive and they know that death follows these so called good-doers wheverever they may go ~ sharing their tools of death and destruction.

There is a universal law of intent ~ the nurses and doctors will not be punished for it. It was their belief they were doing good. Whether they missed the signs and were stupid is not an issue. Once you begin to lie, it nearly always gets out of control and runs rampant for a time. The lies we've been told are only now coming forth. There is no one in this forum who will not have their socks knocked off about the information that has been withheld from us (Charles may or may not be exempt) and that is yet to see the light of day. Talk about truth all you want but remember we each can see only our own truth...that is until we see the light and then we have a special "knowing" ; ) xoxox

Very well put Darla :)

9eagle9
23rd February 2011, 19:53
EXCELLENT point. Should they be held accountable for it? My philo on the matter is once you become aware , you become responsible.


So far, I've read all of the posts here on this most interesting topic. Each of you has a valid point of view. The thing about truth is that it is subjective and by this I mean it is viewed upon our own particular canvas made of all our life's experiences, religious dogma, programming, and tweeked perspective and illusion. Like fingerprints, no two are the same. Are we having fun, yet?

Much can be said and examples given. For instance, nurses and doctors and military personnel played a significant role in distributing toxic vaccines, the aids virus, deadly viruses, as part of a larger genocide agenda and they did this in the U.S. as well as around the world, deadly ~ in large part to people of third world nations. The intent of the distributors and enablers was of the highest regard and many of them would keel over and have heart attacks if they knew what they were a part of..... Should they be held accountable for it? What is the truth here. It may not matter to us whether we can detect it or not. But I can tell you villagers in Africa run when they see the U. N. vehicles drive up with WHO members and they run and hide wherever they can. They are intuitive and they know that death follows these so called good-doers wheverever they may go ~ sharing their tools of death and destruction.

There is a universal law of intent ~ the nurses and doctors will not be punished for it. It was their belief they were doing good. Whether they missed the signs and were stupid is not an issue. Once you begin to lie, it nearly always gets out of control and runs rampant for a time. The lies we've been told are only now coming forth. There is no one in this forum who will not have their socks knocked off about the information that has been withheld from us (Charles may or may not be exempt) and that is yet to see the light of day. Talk about truth all you want but remember we each can see only our own truth...that is until we see the light and then we have a special "knowing" ; ) xoxox

Hiram
23rd February 2011, 20:36
A Master once said:

ALL ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR ALL

If a child dies in the street somewhere in a little village you've never heard of....All are responsible. If terrorists do something horrific....ALL are responsible. Taking responsibility for what occurs here...personal responsibility, is an important step towards awakening towards our true nature.

9eagle9
23rd February 2011, 20:50
You make a very good point Hiram but we have to approach this from a 360 degree perspective and realize that some people have not experienced different levels of reality. They exist within their own belief systems, and those are difficult notions for them to reflect on until some inner landscape work has been done. People who operate at a level of shedding off all beliefs vs those who are still operating what may be a positively themed belief system but still doesn't explain the mechanics of how what you stated works: How we all have created our collective reality.

I witnessed this when I was considering opting on as a CA for rather well known spiritual author who bases her lectures on the course of miracles. Everyone warned me she was a bitch and we'd lock horns. Knowing what I know about how ACIM people appear to others, I asked why they might make that inference.

This author had stood before a crowd of people and asked that people ask Black people to please forgive them for the moral and spiritual crimes imposed on them.

No one understood this and flinched from that simple request figuring they had nothing to do with the black experience. My associates thought it was bitchy behavior but....

We all had everything to do with it, but...getting people to a place of feeling and understanding that concept is a different matter.

Hiram
23rd February 2011, 20:59
We all had everything to do with it, but...getting people to a place of feeling and understanding that concept is a different matter.

Yes, not everyone is ready to understand the nature of that consciousness..........the real kicker (sh*tstorm begins) is when you suggest victims themselves ask forgiveness for what has happened to them.

Few, are ready to walk down that path.

9eagle9
23rd February 2011, 21:09
Siegfried and or Roy can't remember which one got so badly mangled by the tiger, expressed it very well. He had stated that part of his healing process involved asking the tiger for forgiveness, and then working through the forgiveness of himself for what had occurred.






We all had everything to do with it, but...getting people to a place of feeling and understanding that concept is a different matter.

Yes, not everyone is ready to understand the nature of that consciousness..........the real kicker (sh*tstorm begins) is when you suggest victims themselves ask forgiveness for what has happened to them.

Few, are ready to walk down that path.

greybeard
23rd February 2011, 21:17
You make a very good point Hiram but we have to approach this from a 360 degree perspective and realize that some people have not experienced different levels of reality. They exist within their own belief systems, and those are difficult notions for them to reflect on until some inner landscape work has been done. People who operate at a level of shedding off all beliefs vs those who are still operating what may be a positively themed belief system but still doesn't explain the mechanics of how what you stated works: How we all have created our collective reality.

I witnessed this when I was considering opting on as a CA for rather well known spiritual author who bases her lectures on the course of miracles. Everyone warned me she was a bitch and we'd lock horns. Knowing what I know about how ACIM people appear to others, I asked why they might make that inference.

This author had stood before a crowd of people and asked that people ask Black people to please forgive them for the moral and spiritual crimes imposed on them.

No one understood this and flinched from that simple request figuring they had nothing to do with the black experience. My associates thought it was bitchy behavior but....

We all had everything to do with it, but...getting people to a place of feeling and understanding that concept is a different matter.

Very astute 9eagle9
My wife is black and at times has a victim mentality, I dont get it as everyone here, she has met, actually goes out of their way to make her feel at home. If there was any comment about her work in her mind it was because of her colour.
ACIM is clear there is nothing to forgive, that takes time to get to.
I forget where my mind was not that long ago.
I now see that the world does no need fixed it is the perfect place to overcome negative karma and grow spiritually. Its a purgatorial place.
Every day we have many opportunities for positive choice.
We have the opportunity to "forgive" to up lift others.

I tink the first two commandments are all you need (im not of any religion)

Christ on the cross God forgive them for they know not what they do.

Everything you do is recorded in the field of consciousness.
There is nothing but energy/vibration.
Every word thought and deed raises or lowers the level of your consciousness.

On death you gravitate to the level of your consciousness
In my fathers house are many mansions.
What you give out comes back to you.

If some of the space scientists are right then there is a vast "cloud" of magnetic energy going to hit the sun 2012 that even, could well change our DNA.

For those interested there are 5 videos in the thread Enlightenment: Ego what is it? How to transcend thread in the spiritual section.

Thanks for the thread Hiram
People are easily led by their emotions, which may turn out to be the best choice for them, I prefer to cross check where possible to see if I am right to follow my emotions.
I have led my self a merry dance on several occasions.

Regards Chris

sepia
23rd February 2011, 22:12
The act of allowing the greater good for all involved requires no intention,

Exactly. Intentions always bring energy into a situation.
It is as if this energy pushes a 'pendulum' to one side.
And the pendulum will come back with the same amount of energy.



but is probably the greatest act of humility.

I have seen humble spiritual Masters. The most amazing thing: They don't have the tiniest (ego-) intention.
But they have a quality of beingness and things start to transform around them.

They would never push or pull - and so the question of Karma doesn't arise.



Performing parlor tricks under a facade of humbleness isn't really humility. There's an intention attached there. A magician performs to bedazzle, impress an audience but the audience really hadn't advanced in a spiritual way.

How true. Thank you!

Arrowwind
23rd February 2011, 22:14
So far, I've read all of the posts here on this most interesting topic. Each of you has a valid point of view. The thing about truth is that it is subjective and by this I mean it is viewed upon our own particular canvas made of all our life's experiences, religious dogma, programming, and tweeked perspective and illusion. Like fingerprints, no two are the same. Are we having fun, yet?

Much can be said and examples given. For instance, nurses and doctors and military personnel played a significant role in distributing toxic vaccines, the aids virus, deadly viruses, as part of a larger genocide agenda and they did this in the U.S. as well as around the world, deadly ~ in large part to people of third world nations. The intent of the distributors and enablers was of the highest regard and many of them would keel over and have heart attacks if they knew what they were a part of..... Should they be held accountable for it? What is the truth here. It may not matter to us whether we can detect it or not. But I can tell you villagers in Africa run when they see the U. N. vehicles drive up with WHO members and they run and hide wherever they can. They are intuitive and they know that death follows these so called good-doers wheverever they may go ~ sharing their tools of death and destruction.

There is a universal law of intent ~ the nurses and doctors will not be punished for it. It was their belief they were doing good. Whether they missed the signs and were stupid is not an issue. Once you begin to lie, it nearly always gets out of control and runs rampant for a time. The lies we've been told are only now coming forth. There is no one in this forum who will not have their socks knocked off about the information that has been withheld from us (Charles may or may not be exempt) and that is yet to see the light of day. Talk about truth all you want but remember we each can see only our own truth...that is until we see the light and then we have a special "knowing" ; ) xoxox


EXCELLENT point. Should they be held accountable for it? My philo on the matter is once you become aware , you become responsible.


I guess this is kind of going off topic here... but the posts brought this up in me ... so here I go.

Doctors and nurses are only responsible to a degree, even if they are aware of all the difficulties out there. They are working within a system that is controlling and if they bend in one direction or another too far than they are in danger and hence may loose all ability to work with those in need at all. Until the day comes when sufficient other options are made this would be a mistake, for regardless of the medical errors that are made, vast goodness is also dispensed by these people.

Awareness comes in layers.. one small step at a time.. and then all the adjustments required to make it a living awareness

When you are a doctor or a nurse you are placed in a posiiton of power to implement many things....good, bad, mysterious, healing or deadly. Often doctors full well know the dangers of drugs etc, but they choose not to rearrange their lives to make other choices... they have bought into a belief system backed by pseudo science and they agree to the terms,,,and these terms and choices are made on a soul level, whether I or you agree with with them or not, and often because they see no alternative... you have to remember that these people are on a complex spiritual path as all others are.

I have been a nurse for a pretty long time now. I will always be a nurse for at the core defination of nurse, that is what I am. I could see clearly along time ago about the medical profession, even in part, before I entered into it.

This is what I came to.

All people have their own belief systems based upon their soul evolution and inherent intelligence. According to these belief systems they are working out a soul level Karma. The shared belief system is so huge that it encompasses most of western civilization, and before too long the whole world. People construct who they are around their belief system, even if the s ystem itself is constructed of lies. They have a right to make the choices that they make for themselves and for their loved ones. No person has a right to interfere in those choices.

As an individual with my own distinct systems of belief I saw that all people have the right to self responsibility, even if I did not like or approve or believe in the system that they choose. Always in my work my goal was not for their physical health but for their awakening as the primary goal. I was not permitted to force my beliefs upon anyone, but I was permitted to sound my voice when asked and to give my truth when requested.

This enabled me to brush with people who would otherwise have absolutely no access to a different view point. This is how I chose to nurse people.

I also chose to not participate in certain aspects of healthcare. I never vaccinated. I never cared for people who I thought had reasonable options in another modality such as alternative medicine.. Because of this I chose pediatrics of a certain type, children with disability and disease so severe most alternative doctors would cringe (although, as alternative medicine is expanding this group of patient types is getting small as alternative skills increase) I was able to forstall vaccinations though education. I was able to teach about right diet and how to educate .. , and dicipline children in homes where it was desparately needed. I worked with the most damaged of damaged due to auto accidents, and other grevious diseases. I worked with the dying when all had been done that could have been done. My task there was to pave a way for a good death and to bring solace and peace.

Every practitioner of medicine no matter at what level can create an avenue to support, to nuture, heal, love and open doorways if they choose to do so. When surrounded by conventional beliefs your choices are more limited. You have to weigh each step carefully between the good and the dangerous. More important than the message is the medium, at times.

Over time as I grew in awareness and education I dedicated much time in other arenas to educate on alternative choices.

Doctors and nurses who have not the awareness that I have are really OK. They are working in a system of beliefs that is right for their level of comprehension and soul work and they will attract to themselves patients of equal capacity. Most of them will not change in this life. Most of them are deeply compassionate people, if even iced over by the brutality of the system they dwell in.

Every day when I would go into work I would ask the great spirit to bring to me people that I could serve and help. Great Spirit always responded

I said that the medium is more important than the message.. an old Marshall
McLuhan statement... the medium is the message. If a doctor gives with love and compassion, the medicine is much much less relevant... and I have seen patients that I felt healed merely from the presence of the right doctor or nurse, regardless of what medince they swallowed.

The way I see it the battle between alternative and conventional is being won by the alternative and we are seeing now a blending coming about.. This blending will go on for a long time, but in time it will shift to be more fully alternative... but that is a ways down the road and most of us will not see the day unless things hugely speed up... but for those who choose it, it is already here.

yes - the do gooders, I call them also. More like robots than thinking intelligent people. They are all around us and they are dangerous because they believe so much in what they are doing but they have not the intuitive skills to read the record and know truth... and their danger lies in that they would tie you down and inflict their beliefs on you regardless of what you say or believe, for they believe that you are less than they.

When it comes to intention some people forget the simple and pure stuff when faced with immense difficulties. This is why I have signed up with an organization called www.oathkeepers.org (http://www.oathkeepers.org/) in support of maintaining awareness of all constitutional rights... to reinforce the original intent of our US constitution... as a medical person I feel the same threat to blind obedience that any police officer or military person would and laws have been written into other game plans recently to try to force my hand. If one aligns themselves with the constitution they cannot vaccinate or inflict any medical care upon anyone who does not want it... no matter how ignorant you think they might be. The constitution is a statement of soverignity of the human spirit and the human body... some might be interested to go to this site and read the 10 points that one commits to to not infringe on when it comes to peoples constitutional rights. These rights, in my minds eye apply to all planetary citizens, but bind legally in the usa.

Amer
24th February 2011, 00:38
Thank you for such a thought provoking thread.


I wasn't aware of the collective intent exercise and if I understand correctly no information was given for the cause or indeed the outcome- right?


What happens then if I say that tomorrow I am undergoing an important medical procedure and I ask you all to focus your collective consciousness/your positivity on a successful outcome for my operation...... but in fact tomorrow I have planned to rob a bank! Ok morally you are all excused as you were duped by me but do I harness your intent/energy all the same? Sepia for example said that “ intentions always bring energy into a situation” (post #43) Or do higher forces intervene? Maybe in every wholesomely meant positive intent sent out by us we should always include a spiritual protection clause for us and the greater good?? Is it enough?
Thanks again to Hiram & all for making me a more aware person.

Selene
24th February 2011, 00:53
Sepia, you commented:


I have seen humble spiritual Masters. The most amazing thing: They don't have the tiniest (ego-) intention.
But they have a quality of beingness and things start to transform around them.

Yes! Exactly.

More than words can ever explain.

Thank you so much for your eloquence and insight, dear lady.

Cheers,

Selene

greybeard
24th February 2011, 01:04
Thank you for such a thought provoking thread.


I wasn't aware of the collective intent exercise and if I understand correctly no information was given for the cause or indeed the outcome- right?


What happens then if I say that tomorrow I am undergoing an important medical procedure and I ask you all to focus your collective consciousness/your positivity on a successful outcome for my operation...... but in fact tomorrow I have planned to rob a bank! Ok morally you are all excused as you were duped by me but do I harness your intent/energy all the same? Sepia for example said that “ intentions always bring energy into a situation” (post #43) Or do higher forces intervene? Maybe in every wholesomely meant positive intent sent out by us we should always include a spiritual protection clause for us and the greater good?? Is it enough?
Thanks again to Hiram & all for making me a more aware person.

We all learn by trial and error to use discernment.
Younger souls may not have that facility as yet, so if asked for, guidance can be given.
However if the actions of the collective peer group affect your self, your family, or your home, then advice can be given without it being asked for.

There is an awareness that there are energy vampires and that when energy is released by a large group of people, that is very attractive to these parasites.

Praying is quite different, meditating in groups quite different as there is a Divine presence automatically invoked.

Giving permission for some one to use your energy in an experiment is not wise.

Even plants are aware of the signature of energy, thoughts can harm.
Tomatoes were wired up to an energy sensor and when a person had thoughts of cutting them they were very aware of these harmful thoughts

Plants are known to grow better for those who express love to them

Water changes according to the thoughts of a person holding a glass of water.
Books on that

So you might have personally good thoughts which are energetic, but the moment you mix that energy with others then you will get a different vibration all together from your intention,
There are many books on the subject of healing of energy transfer.
The Bio-energy and Qui Gong that I trained is thousands of years old and came from martial arts.
So your thoughts if focused properly can defend kill or heal.

Namaste

Hiram
24th February 2011, 01:04
What happens then if I say that tomorrow I am undergoing an important medical procedure and I ask you all to focus your collective consciousness/your positivity on a successful outcome for my operation...... but in fact tomorrow I have planned to rob a bank! Ok morally you are all excused as you were duped by me but do I harness your intent/energy all the same? Sepia for example said that “ intentions always bring energy into a situation” (post #43) Or do higher forces intervene? Maybe in every wholesomely meant positive intent sent out by us we should always include a spiritual protection clause for us and the greater good?? Is it enough?


Great questions you pose there. I don't think that higher forces will intervene--as this would violate the law of free-will. Energy freely given is freely given.

As to whether that energy could be used to work some mischief..the truth is that I don't know for certain, but according to my understanding...there is no reason that it couldn't be.

I think a protection clause *could* have been activated...and this would help insure a positive outcome for all involved. Its common practice to invoke such protective energies when working in the astral. Sepia could say more about this.

Arrowwind
24th February 2011, 01:35
All intentions when voiced need to be contained with "for the highest good of all"
that will keep out your selfishness, your karma, your ignorance from intertering in the situation.
If it does not fit the program for the highest good of all is should not go though

I do feel that intent is a major component for a creator race.
If you have no clue what it is that you are creating
no visual process, no dream,
then there is no intent.

But we are dreamers!
and visualizers.

Dreams and visual proceess to form new avenues in creativity
are sounded forth with intend often
a hearts longing,
a will for change
just in their being
first there was the word, and the word was with god.

Seems to me the word is an intermediary step between the dream and the physical reality
to call forth out of the abyss a new reality

are we not all here seeking a new reality of some sort?
our evolution?
a release from poverty?
a healing?
a restored planet?

I do not think these things will happen unless
we intend them to happen on one level or another

intention is a focus of energy upon a creative process
We were given an unlimited playing field
and we can make it go the way we want as a collective group
as well in our personal life
either war or peace
either bounty or desparation
either joy or dispair
either abundance or starvation

How do you propose changing without forming intent?
or will we do nothing and just hope for the best?
or not care? or not try?

even in the sentence "or will we do nothing" there is intent seen
in the word will

what is the option for building our world anew without intent?

jjl
24th February 2011, 01:37
well said Arrow...

sepia
24th February 2011, 15:17
What happens then if I say that tomorrow I am undergoing an important medical procedure and I ask you all to focus your collective consciousness/your positivity on a successful outcome for my operation...... but in fact tomorrow I have planned to rob a bank!

Sepia for example said that “ intentions always bring energy into a situation” (post #43) Or do higher forces intervene? Maybe in every wholesomely meant positive intent sent out by us we should always include a spiritual protection clause for us and the greater good?? Is it enough?


Great questions you pose there. I don't think that higher forces will intervene--as this would violate the law of free-will. Energy freely given is freely given.

As to whether that energy could be used to work some mischief..the truth is that I don't know for certain, but according to my understanding...there is no reason that it couldn't be.

I think a protection clause *could* have been activated...and this would help insure a positive outcome for all involved. Its common practice to invoke such protective energies when working in the astral. Sepia could say more about this.

Thank you both for mentioning me. I can actually only explain how I work - hope this clarifies your question.

If I'm asked for help I get in touch with someone from a purely spiritual level.

I don't have a specific intention that a person should be healthy or successful or sick or should die...

But I know, that every being is a pure divine soul.

In this telepathic communication the whole history unfolds:


fears show up - and we look at their source
anger is shown - and we look at the events having created it
sometimes we look at situations of astral programming or hypnosis and these things fall away as well
etc.

-> The being starts to understand and gets in touch with its divine quality and the shadows get solved.

This happens on being-level.

The PERSON (daily consciousnes) has still a free will to continue his life as before. He might feel a bit better the next day, will rob the bank and fall back into the same patterns - and probably get sick again.

Or he changes according the inner transformation. Everything feels different - the desease probably heals but he is not able to rob the bank anymore.

Spirituality destroys most games :) specially the distructive ones.

Just to prevent misunderstandings:
To be healthy isn't the prove that we do everything right - to be sick doesn't mean, that we are bad people.

All these things have to be looked at individually.

Celine
24th February 2011, 15:20
Great post sepia...thank you for sharing your heart.

You have helped many and hope you will continue to do so.

My heart to yours,
love,
celine

sepia
24th February 2011, 21:39
Giving permission for some one to use your energy in an experiment is not wise.

So your thoughts if focused properly can defend kill or heal.

Namaste

Great words greybeard, like always.

To give this permission is certainly not wise - at least there is the value of an experience...

I'd like to add that most often energy is taken from us without permission -


I wished there would be a clearer perception for energetic aspects among people!

Beth
24th February 2011, 22:13
I'd like to add that most often energy is taken from us without permission -


Yes, this happens quite a bit. It's always good to take notes on how your energy body is doing, and do it quite a bit. People can latch on to our energy, and it can be draining with all sorts of different affects. Protection is important as well.

firstlook
24th February 2011, 22:33
Positive intentions do NOT ensure positive outcomes.

Simply beginning an endeavor from a point of love and well-wishes for all, will not guarantee that your actions won’t produce an undesired consequence.

The world is rife with examples of well-intentioned people who have caused great havoc in the natural order of things. A simple example of this phenomenon would be people who feed bears…out of love and compassion for the bear, presumably.

What that well-intentioned person doesn’t understand (because they are acting out of well-intentioned ignorance); is that they are now creating an animal which associates people with a food source. Not a good combination; and one which will undoubtedly produce a negative outcome for other people as well as the bears.

Their Intention was irrelevant to the outcome.

When you make decisions out of ignorance, a positive intent is no fail-safe against disaster.

Ignorance must be addressed first, and then directed positive intent applied.


Within every group, there is usually an individual proclaiming that:
“The time for discussion is over…it’s time to ACT!”

Invariably, that will be the person who understands the situation the least.

Opinions are welcome.

IMO, miscommunication is the number one culprit in judging intentions vs. outcome. There two sides to an Idea. The way you see it, and the way another see's it. Lasting Ideas involve working through why the two parties see it differently.

I simply think it is a matter of stating a SPECIFIC intention and then DETAIL how to reach that outcome. This way, the patience you use to construct and idea, can also be used to interact with new information.

The issue is purely focus and communicating that focus in detail to each new observer and possible participant in the idea.

People will debate the facts, this is given. Connecting the details to everyones concern is where the critical thinking process is supported. And we end right back into my simple point (bold)

And of course as mentioned by the OP, you always can improve an idea and your perceptions.

Thats core of what being a conscious human being is about.

Peace :)

benevolentcrow
24th February 2011, 22:45
Pure Intent (not positive intent)

We live in a world of great divide. There is little perspective, understanding, and good intent towards our differences. This is my humble attempt to bridge that gap. Laugh, cry, pry, examine, discover, critique, praise, and dangle on the edge with pure intent.

9eagle9
24th February 2011, 22:51
You know I'd feel about oh 1/10 th better if one person who is horsing around with this stuff admits to knowing how to cope with any healing crisis this horsing around may illicit. Just one person to take responsibility if some buried emotional embedding is triggered in another person.

Anyone?

firstlook
24th February 2011, 22:55
You know I'd feel about oh 1/10 th better if one person who is horsing around with this stuff admits to knowing how to cope with any healing crisis this horsing around may illicit. Just one person to take responsibility if some buried emotional embedding is triggered in another person.

Anyone?

Are you talking about emotional reaction?

9eagle9
24th February 2011, 23:04
An emotional reaction can be part of it, eventually it can manifest into physical symptoms, tachycardia, profuse sweating, plummeting blood sugar, rise or drop in blood pressure, black outs and hysteria, extreme fright, flight and fright mechanism. Pre existing physical conditions can be triggered to because of those symptoms. Someone who has a heart condition really shouldn't be experiencing an uncontrolled healing crisis on their own. An having a good intention does little to salve it.

Quite a lot like a panic attack. A healing crisis on its own is not always a bad thing but they usually need some attention. And panicked people usually don't have the presence of mind to keep to take care themselves.

write4change
24th February 2011, 23:10
What is embedded is an issue I have never known how to address eagle. I can see it. When I worked oncology, I learned that there were people who chose cancer to die and some who chose cancer to change. I could see it in a way I could not express--I was young. But most of them had no awareness at all. They would say they wanted to battle the cancer or get well but then never did anything--the focusing, the going within to seek healing. Those that died always took the position that whatever happended was outside themselves. god's will, luck, the breaks, etc.

At that time, I felt it was not my position to say anythng just be there in the helping way.

You also get to see how life crisis like this floats thru so many lives. I quit oncology after two years and the third Rita died in my arms of breast cancer. They were all under 30. They were all married. And all of their husbands abandoned them before the end came and were not there in the end. I have no idea what that was all about. I still find I do not want to look at it. At the time, I just wanted never to see it again.

firstlook
24th February 2011, 23:18
An emotional reaction can be part of it, eventually it can't manifest into physical symptoms, tachycardia, profuse sweating, plummeting blood sugar, rise or drop in blood pressure, black outs and hysteria, extreme fright, flight and fright mechanism. Pre existing physical conditions can be triggered to because of those symptoms. Someone who has a heart condition really shouldn't be experiencing an uncontrolled healing crisis on their own. An having a good intention does little to salve it.

Quite a lot like a panic attack. A healing crisis on its own is not always a bad thing but they usually need some attention. And panicked people usually don't have the presence of mind to keep to take care themselves.

I have hyper tension, or did at least. I know what your talking about now.

Some panicked people do. I used to wake up shaking in the morning for 4 years of my childhood. I didnt tell my parents, and eventually learned to address my issues.

I was lucky though. Alot of people continue to slip despite their good intentions. Those good intentions though when it comes to ones self health both mentally and physically, also stem from assumptions.

All in all........Know thy self. :)

Hiram
24th February 2011, 23:47
I have worked in palliative care and have witnessed the power of intent.

In those terms, it was the intent to make the transition with dignity and under the conditions of your choosing.

People leave the body a number of times in the last days and hours. We call this "being In and Out". They are also almost ALWAYS visited in the last days. These are the emissaries, come to attenuate the person to the other side. Mid-wives, if you will:-)

I have been present at some beautiful deaths. To surrender one's intent to a higher force, is the most humbling thing I have ever encountered, and it brings tears to my eyes of course even now as i write this.

greybeard
24th February 2011, 23:47
You know I'd feel about oh 1/10 th better if one person who is horsing around with this stuff admits to knowing how to cope with any healing crisis this horsing around may illicit. Just one person to take responsibility if some buried emotional embedding is triggered in another person.

Anyone?

That is why training is necessary.
No need to reinvent the wheel, you can improve but there are tried and tested ways of healing thousands of years old, many originating in China.
As part of the training you are taught to feel, be aware, of the flow of energy through the hands.
Healing for this reason is normally one to one. Thats is very controllable. With a multitude of untrained people sending energy then there is the possibility of something going wrong.
A "healer" takes responsibility from start to finish of the process which may take several sessions.
Rarely healing crisis can occur but the therapist is trained to handle this.

If your car wont start it is ok to hook up to one other car battery but multiples???
If there was something fairly serious wrong with your car or your body would you let some one untrained work on it.

The apprentice learns by watching first, the junior Dr not allowed to prescribe.

Chris

Ilie Pandia
25th February 2011, 00:14
I would like to put myself in the shoes of the "target" of a remote healing session. Unrequested healing that may go wrong...

From I am reading here, it would seem that I am at the mercy of others with no means of self-protection. My healing (or getting worse) is dependent on an outside source: the one who does the healing (or the attack). Should not be in my power to accept or reject any "gift" sent my way? By saying that you can heal me or attack me remotely without my permission aren't you taking away my power?

If I accept that I can harm someone without their letting me, I MUST accept that I can be harmed by someone regardless of how I protect myself... (it ties into the victim asking for forgiveness as the co-creator of the situation)

Hiram
25th February 2011, 00:20
Good points pixel. I think perhaps you are applying a different standard to the astral than to reality...when in fact the same standards apply. You have skin on your human body that provides protection from the elements--yet if I send out a toxic nerve gas...despite your skin...and despite your resistance or knowledge, you can be harmed by thus. You can however take precautions to prevent this to a certain extent.

The astral or spiritual realms or no different in this measure..with the exception that perhaps the damage would not "kill" your radiant body persee...but may cause you to be entrained into a vibratory resonance that you find very unpleasant. If you stayed in that resonance too long, you yourself could be tainted.

Those are some thoughts.

9eagle9
25th February 2011, 00:21
I've lost one cancer person because they refused to enter into a healing contract. My mother. She was bed ridden before any treatment started. She agreed to let me work with her in spite of the blistering animosity she held for me. Within four days she was out of bed and raising hell in the neighborhood again. I suggested that whatever WE had attempted seemed to be working. That was it. She climbed right back in bed and started chemo. Her contract with me was that I was NEVER going to be right about anything as far as she was concerned even if she had to die to prove it. And of course she had never forgiven me for being born a gigantic 10 pound premature black baby.

It makes me want to scream, cancer is so damned easy to get rid of. A physical reflection of what is eating us alive in the inside. Mary Croft suggests it is an outright desire for death. Or so hungry for some unfulfilled need that the body begins to consume itself to compensate. Who knows. Who truly truly knows the pain that exists inside of us that is not even felt consciously. My mother wanted to die, she'd threatened us her whole life with how we'd be sorry when she was gone. But God played a good one on her if you can imagine someone coming back from the dead. Or maybe God was showing me a thing or two about the illusionary nature of death.

When someone dies we always get a feeling of unreality that we can't seem to get out of for weeks and weeks. This is when we most know that death isn't real. We just ignore what we know and feel when a death occurs. If it were real why would we feel so strongly that it wasn't real?

Last spring an acquaintance of mine was diagnosed with stage 4 lung cancer. So I said, Come over as soon as you can. In the meantime NO SUGAR. She's a bit of a victim and I lose my patience (patients? ha ha ) fast with people like that so one of my students made the agreement to work with her. The first thing that was reported back to me is that the woman was consuming sugar at a far greater rate now than she ever did when she was well. Death wish. Contract. After that it was just a matter of hounding her till she coughed up her contract. Her tumor shrank to virtually nothing before her treatment ever began. But it was the sugar thing that got me. It was like she was telling me "OH crap you're going to drag god into this; i better punish myself as much as possible."

I have to tell people though, Here's the terms of an agreement. You, I and God are going to enter into a sacred agreement. We are going to renegotiate some stuff here, and create a whole new sacred relationship with yourself. If they bow out of that contract, well...my responsibility as a support system is ended. If I didn't approach it this way I'd lose my mind at the senselessness of it all.

I am admittedly a gunslinger and a bit of cavalier when it comes to things like this. Cancer? Not a problem? Aids? No biggie. Genital Herpes? Nope we'll have you back in the sack in six weeks time.
People have warned me that God will punish me for being such a hotshot and I wondered myself if I were pushing the line there. Thus far not (thank you , God) But God assures me that is what people need most is a lack of fear in their most fearful hour. I later realized its about not getting into the contract with them by treating them as if they were anything but already whole. Identifying them as a wound or diseased, they've already done that. But seeing them in their wholeness. When you see someone in their wholeness its easy to be confident.

write4change
25th February 2011, 00:22
Pixel,

I hear what you are saying but it is not that simple. It is like allowing yourself to be attacked. Some people don't think about it any way. People who walk with their heads down and shoulders rolled and withdrawn from seeing around them look and act like victims. People who stride down the street with their heads up, eyes alert and aware, are not usually chosen to be victims. Most predators want a quick kill in whatever way they are doing it not a lot of hassle. Hassles are not usually generated by unknowns --- they are usually karmic encounters of something.

Ilie Pandia
25th February 2011, 00:24
Good points pixel. I think perhaps you are applying a different standard to the astral than to reality...when in fact the same standards apply. You have skin on your human body that provides protection from the elements--yet if I send out a toxic nerve gas...despite your skin...and despite your resistance or knowledge, you can be harmed by thus. You can however take precautions to prevent this to a certain extent.

The astral or spiritual realms or no different in this measure..with the exception that perhaps the damage would not "kill" your radiant body persee...but may cause you to be entrained into a vibratory resonance that you find very unpleasant. If you stayed in that resonance too long, you yourself could be tainted.

Those are some thoughts.

Yes Hiram, but I am asking is: for you to choose me as your "victim" (and not someone else) wouldn't imply that we both have some kind of agreement to have this experience together (at some high-self level that I am not aware of)? If this is not true... then why should I as a victim ask for forgiveness if I did not contribute in any way to the situation?

Hiram
25th February 2011, 00:32
Okay. :-)

That is a very large bag you are opening there...as you well know. I'm glad you did though. What a great thread; and important!

Would someone else like to share their perspective on this question?

I agree with pixel that when "bad" things happen to us...there usually HAS been an agreement reached on another plane for this to occur.

greybeard
25th February 2011, 00:32
I would like to put myself in the shoes of the "target" of a remote healing session. Unrequested healing that may go wrong...

From I am reading here, it would seem that I am at the mercy of others with no means of self-protection. My healing (or getting worse) is dependent on an outside source: the one who does the healing (or the attack). Should not be in my power to accept or reject any "gift" sent my way? By saying that you can heal me or attack me remotely without my permission aren't you taking away my power?

If I accept that I can harm someone without their letting me, I MUST accept that I can be harmed by someone regardless of how I protect myself... (it ties into the victim asking for forgiveness as the co-creator of the situation)

Not fond of the words attack or target though I appreciate why you use them.
Yes you have the power.
Put it this way if you are aware of psychic attack you can ask for Divine help, you can meditate and ask for God or Holy spirit to take it away.
So it can be refused.- but you do no the have the power in lower self to reject if it is a very powerful attack.
Healing can be refused easily no healer would attempt to force,

All healing is by Self which is the same Self as the Self of the healer. That takes a bit of understanding.
Putting that aside a good way of looking at it is.

The healer has done their best to be a pure channel, has worked on them selves under supervision, be fore the healing commences the process and the end result is handed over to Divinity. It might not be in a persons spiritual interest to be cured, that can not be known by the healer and is rightly handed over to God.

So the healer is the catalyst that jump starts the healing process in the client, the Self of the client does the rest.
The more powerful,well prepared. the catalyst the more chance there is that the jump start will be powerful enough to get the process of to a good start.

Hope that helps.

Chris

Hiram
25th February 2011, 00:38
It might not be in a persons spiritual interest to be cured, that can not be known by the healer and is rightly handed over to God.


Yes, Brilliant. That is the way astral/energetic healing normally takes place.

Ilie Pandia
25th February 2011, 00:43
It might not be in a persons spiritual interest to be cured, that can not be known by the healer and is rightly handed over to God.


Yes, Brilliant. That is the way astral/energetic healing normally takes place.

It may also be in my best spiritual interest that I get attacked (and as a result of that I get to meet some important help... or I have a self realization)...

See.... I can not believe you can separate healing from attacking in this case... you either can allow/refuse both... or you can not allow/refuse both...

Why your higher-self would help you get to a healer but will just stand by and let you get hurt by someone else...

manny
25th February 2011, 00:45
It might not be in a persons spiritual interest to be cured, that can not be known by the healer and is rightly handed over to God.


Yes, Brilliant. That is the way astral/energetic healing normally takes place.

It may also be in my best spiritual interest that I get attacked (and as a result of that I get to meet some important help... or I have a self realization)...

See.... I can not believe you can separate healing from attacking in this case... you either can allow/refuse both... or you can not allow/refuse both...

Why your higher-self would help you get to a healer but will just stand by and let you get hurt by someone else...
have you been attacked

9eagle9
25th February 2011, 00:47
The healing is always dependent on you. Someone may facilitate it but its up to the recipient to have the choice to yark up what's bothering them. To impose on someones free will and not have a fully informed disclosure of what others are doing to them...I have to say if that is occuring there is little higher good in the matter and its self serving. All healers have struggled with this. Its one of the challenges of being a healer to wrestle to the ground the morality of that.

I have people who beg me for healing but then on another level reject it. Consciously that want something, usually attention or a new experience. Subconsciously their pain body is so great that they don't want it. There's some people who scoff at it but some level of them are being transformed by it. Lesser subconscious pain body, their disbelief is simply at a conscious level.

Bottom line is what is going on inside of us. The ego really really plays a number on us all. If we are carrying a guilt with us that we are not aware of the ego will open the door to anything without our knowing it and inviting something in to punish us. If guilt is present the logical summation is that a punishment is required. We heal that guilt though and we take away the ego's arsenal. We become impervious to outside influences.

The last bad attack I had was an ex and his girlfriend. I knew it and did nothing about although I could have bitchslapped both of them onto the other side of the universe. The reason I didn't is because I was allowing this attack at some level. I was not in a very good place, I know that much, prior to their meddling. So instead of blowing both guns at them, which then just becomes a game of Stratego you never extricate yourself from, I figured I have far greater control by fixing what was going on inside me. This not about loss of control its about gaining control.

The shadow will undermine our best conscious efforts and intentions. I ask people to attend to thine own wounds before meddling in others. While some people think I'm pissing on their parade I think its a reasonable request. I think Jesus said something of that nature too. And what was he famous for?

Most healers spend a great deal of time in self healing before they attempt distance or remote healing. Some don't spend quite enough. People who are raised to be shamanic often times spend decades in self correction and are well into their forties before seeing people outside of the family to work with. This demonstrates a rare responsibility and caring for the welfare of others.

The only thing that puts us at the mercy of others is our ignorance of who and what we are. Our susceptibility and desperate desire to BELIEVE in something. And our state of woundedness.


I would like to put myself in the shoes of the "target" of a remote healing session. Unrequested healing that may go wrong...

From I am reading here, it would seem that I am at the mercy of others with no means of self-protection. My healing (or getting worse) is dependent on an outside source: the one who does the healing (or the attack). Should not be in my power to accept or reject any "gift" sent my way? By saying that you can heal me or attack me remotely without my permission aren't you taking away my power?

If I accept that I can harm someone without their letting me, I MUST accept that I can be harmed by someone regardless of how I protect myself... (it ties into the victim asking for forgiveness as the co-creator of the situation)

greybeard
25th February 2011, 00:48
Good points pixel. I think perhaps you are applying a different standard to the astral than to reality...when in fact the same standards apply. You have skin on your human body that provides protection from the elements--yet if I send out a toxic nerve gas...despite your skin...and despite your resistance or knowledge, you can be harmed by thus. You can however take precautions to prevent this to a certain extent.

The astral or spiritual realms or no different in this measure..with the exception that perhaps the damage would not "kill" your radiant body persee...but may cause you to be entrained into a vibratory resonance that you find very unpleasant. If you stayed in that resonance too long, you yourself could be tainted.

Those are some thoughts.

Yes Hiram, but I am asking is: for you to choose me as your "victim" (and not someone else) wouldn't imply that we both have some kind of agreement to have this experience together (at some high-self level that I am not aware of)? If this is not true... then why should I as a victim ask for forgiveness if I did not contribute in any way to the situation?

Depends how far you want to come out of the rabbit hole laughing

There is only one of us here but we need the illusion of duality to experience.

However at the level you are talking about we incarnate as a soul group, so yes, there may well be an agreement for your friend to be your bad guy.
Eckhart Tolle said "There was never any one there to do anything to you"

We need to forgive as part of our spiritual growth till w get to the point were we can say God forgive them for they know not what they do, in other words they really could not act any other way, therefore there is nothing to forgive. and so on.

Namaste

Hiram
25th February 2011, 00:50
Well pixel, that could have to do with pre-agreements, as you mention.

As I mentioned before, the astral level of existence (astral for lack of a better word of course) is NOT ultimate reality. There are many levels in the spectrum and we are discussing just one that allows people to affect eachother at a distance.

Its possible. It's not always good. And just because I ahve agreed to have someone Mug me in a pre-agreement, does not mean I will sit by and allow it to occur.

Each event is an opportunity to express yourself.

(not too shabby for a 700th post!)

Ilie Pandia
25th February 2011, 00:57
It might not be in a persons spiritual interest to be cured, that can not be known by the healer and is rightly handed over to God.


Yes, Brilliant. That is the way astral/energetic healing normally takes place.

It may also be in my best spiritual interest that I get attacked (and as a result of that I get to meet some important help... or I have a self realization)...

See.... I can not believe you can separate healing from attacking in this case... you either can allow/refuse both... or you can not allow/refuse both...

Why your higher-self would help you get to a healer but will just stand by and let you get hurt by someone else...

have you been attacked

No, or at least I am not aware of it :).

I do not want to harm anybody, and I do not expect anybody to want to harm me...

I also think I have some "good protection" because I have been involved in some stupid accidents while a child that could have ended my life and yet.... here I am :)

It seems to me that I have the "lowest" level of awareness on this thread ;)... so you will have to forgive me if I do not fully understand your replies... I know what most of you are talking about but I do not have any practical experience...

greybeard
25th February 2011, 00:58
Congratulations on your 700th Hiram
Great thread
Good night from me
Chris

9eagle9
25th February 2011, 01:00
Why would our Higher Self stand by and allow us to be attacked.

It doesn't.

Our Higher Self is our direct conduit with Source. That part of us that is really connected to God. God does not cross our free will. Nothing crosses our free will unless some part of us allows it. We don't know what we are willing though. How many people consciously desire better relationships yet get into the pattern of marrying their mother over and over again? If they want a better relationship why do they keep doing that?

What if God Higher/Self intervened everytime you had a nice unhealthy plate of greasy bacon? Or if God-Higher SElf intervened everytime someone served you a beer? Or God intervened whenever you wanted to date the bad boy / bad girl who is bound to break your heart? I'd be a bit fashed at God. What a kill joy.

Once I started working with my Higher Self and my conduit to God I had help making those sorts of decisions. But I had to give over the willingness and let my HS help me. It wasn't going to cross my free will on its own.

We are given this life to learn to manage on our own not be managed for us and this forum is all about how we collectively have allowed, through our ignorance of what we really are, others to manage our lives for us. See where it got us? . We can choose to have help with our decisions or....we can just keep happy assholing down the road the ego navigated way. Or worse, someone elses ego navigation. It depends on what you really want. You want greasy bacon, beer and bad boys. God won't deny you. You want something better for youself, God won't deny that either.

God does not cross our free will. Neither does our Higher Self. Believe me its there writhing around waiting for us to get out of our insanity and ask it to do something on our behalf. Instead we go with conscious mind choices. Ego mind choices.

If we choose to have an experience God nor the Higher Self is seldom going to rush in and save us from it. I say seldom because we do get the occasional divine intervention but ...that's a different topic of discussion. If we allow and give that willingness we are shown how to make better decisions that we are comfortable and safe making. The ego might not think so...but it don't make good decisions anyway. That's why we keep marrying our mother.

Hiram
25th February 2011, 01:03
It seems to me that I have the "lowest" level of awareness on this thread

Thats probably not true. LOL. My level of awareness fluctuates throughout the day. The lower---higher thing anyway!! (slaps his own forehead) We have to ask what that even is don't we???

Selene
25th February 2011, 01:26
Wow. What an extraordinary pleasure - merely to be here in the presence of each of you!

All my fondest and most respectful greetings, wise ones. (Yes, I mean you, too.) What a Light shines here!

Selene