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Bill Ryan
2nd March 2011, 06:46
--------

Dear Friends:

Many of you will have seen the WORM TONGUE (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?15395-Worm-Tongue) thread that was started yesterday by Celine.

If you have not, you may need quite a strong stomach to wade through it to the end.

I closed it as soon as it was brought to my attention.

This is an extract from one of many PMs that I received after I closed it:




Dear Bill,

I was waiting for the cavalry to show - thanks for that. I'm not privy to what's going on, it's not important and I do not need to know. Suffice to say, I've seen nothing less than a witch-hunt going on here today/tonight and it's been awful (disgusting is more apt). I have never seen moderators behave this way, ever. For a member to be told to feck off by a senior moderator is well... I have no words.

I understand that I am a new member to your forum and so cannot expect to know all personalities yet and how they interact or choose to present themselves, but I can tell you that I expected more from some of our senior members, it's left me speechless.

Amen to that. I have asked Richard to leave the forum. It is no longer appropriate that he holds the position he has done for quite a long while. I here ask Celine to leave with him and to take their energies elsewhere. I am making this call, and the call is mine alone, and I believe that the forum will now settle down to a significant degree in the days and weeks to come.

None of the other moderators have been involved in this decision, although I know that some of them are in full agreement with me. Others will protest: an understandable result of conflict of loyalties based on long friendship - and they may also leave. That is all fine.

There are no bad people here. Only incompatibilities, human frailty in various forms, and strong differences of opinion that make it impossible for the continuity of a functioning team as currently structured. The world will continue, and so will Avalon, which is larger than any individual.

I want to thank Richard for his hard work and commitment to the forum over a long period of time, which probably feels to him even longer. He is a good man, and he snapped.

On my part, the final breakdown of trust happened when it was brought to my attention that he had shared with the other moderators that he intended to leave with a tell-all post that would be very deliberately negative and destructive. That may still come, but if it does, the vindictiveness that powers it will be transparent.

I told him, when I spoke with him on the phone a few hours ago, that the call was his whether to leave with dignity - or to leave with negativity, bitterness, and a fully destructive action. He said he would indeed make that call, and ended the conversation. I hope that he makes the correct decision, for the sake of his own karma.

I will terminate their accounts in 24 hours from now.

I thank Richard sincerely here for his many hours of commitment to make the world a better place in this particular way in which he has been able to contribute. The pressures he has been under have been near-impossible to manage or balance. He has been torn in half with his fierce loyalty to his wife Celine, and his equally fierce loyalty to myself and the forum. They could not reasonably coexist in one person.

Celine, like many of us, has her own internal battles to wage and her personal mountains to climb. But this forum is no longer the appropriate venue for that to be conducted in public view.

The pressure Richard was under erupted in so much suppressed anger that it is self-evident that he must take his leave. I have contacted the hosting company to change all the passwords to the server and elsewhere. I cannot risk a moment of angry insanity which would destroy the heartfelt co-creation of many thousands of people over a long year of human experience in all its richness. I regret that I felt obliged to take that protective step, but it was the right thing to do.

I regard all the moderators as my friends, and always have done. It's for them to choose whether to return my deep feeling of sincere fellowship. I expect a number of them to step down, and this is all fine. Beth has already done so, and I accepted her resignation, which she conveyed with all the dignity and grace that I would expect from her. I thank her here for her countless hours of hard work on behalf of you all, as I do Rich.

As I wrote above, the world continues. In the meantime, I will not see this forum polluted by negative emotion, smears, innuendoes, and unjustified personal attack. If we want to create a better world, it has to start here, with each of us personally and with the way we relate to others. While that construction job is in progress, there may be certain people who we exclude from the worksite. Ultimately, of course, we are all in this together.

With my best wishes to everyone ~ Bill

Gone001
2nd March 2011, 07:25
Of course it's your forum and your choice but I think you've made the wrong one. Richard snapped on one member yes, but I don't think that's a good enough reason to ask someone who has put two years of blood, sweat and tears into this forum to help you out in your quest, to leave. This whole situation leaves a very bitter taste in my mouth.

Human Beings go through their lives experiencing a complex range of emotions, not only love, we are not Care Bears. I recall a time when you yourself Bill flipped out on a member (repeatedly calling him stupid) for insulting the memory of one of your passed on friends (Mr.X R.I.P). This is of course no different then Richard saying what he said to stick up for his wife. No one held it against you when that happened (at least I didn't) because sometimes we loose our cool. It's important that this happens sometime so we can learn how to better grow.

I would never hold it against you for loosing your temper, hypocrisy, on the other hand, is a different story.

Cheers,

Aldous

Bill Ryan
2nd March 2011, 07:40
--------

Thanks, Aldous:

My calling out Tone3Jaguar (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?10551-Why-I-am-leaving-this-forum&p=90182&viewfull=1#post90182) for using a pendulum to assess Wade Frazier's information as '11% accurate' was fully justified. Do take a moment to visit Wade Frazier's thread (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?10672-WADE-FRAZIER-A-Healed-Planet) and decide for yourself.

My use of the word 'stupid' was measured and deliberate. It was not an insult: it was true. It was an extreme demonstration of unintelligence on his part, and a destructive one inasmuch as he had a whole web page which announced his misplaced conclusions to the world. There are no double standards here.

After I had drawn attention to his postion, he left the forum of his own accord. All that was fine.

Tangri
2nd March 2011, 07:49
--------

Dear Friends:

Many of you will have seen the WORM TONGUE (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?15395-Worm-Tongue) thread that was started yesterday by Celine.

If you have not, you may need quite a strong stomach to wade through it to the end.

I closed it as soon as it was brought to my attention.

This is an extract from one of many PMs that I received after I closed it:




Dear Bill,

I was waiting for the cavalry to show - thanks for that. I'm not privy to what's going on, it's not important and I do not need to know. Suffice to say, I've seen nothing less than a witch-hunt going on here today/tonight and it's been awful (disgusting is more apt). I have never seen moderators behave this way, ever. For a member to be told to feck off by a senior moderator is well... I have no words.

I understand that I am a new member to your forum and so cannot expect to know all personalities yet and how they interact or choose to present themselves, but I can tell you that I expected more from some of our senior members, it's left me speechless.

Amen to that. I have asked Richard to leave the forum. It is no longer appropriate that he holds the position he has done for quite a long while. I here ask Celine to leave with him and to take their energies elsewhere. I am making this call, and the call is mine alone, and I believe that the forum will now settle down to a significant degree in the days and weeks to come.

None of the other moderators have been involved in this decision, although I know that some of them are in full agreement with me. Others will protest: an understandable result of conflict of loyalties based on long friendship - and they may also leave. That is all fine.

There are no bad people here. Only incompatibilities, human frailty in various forms, and strong differences of opinion that make it impossible for the continuity of a functioning team as currently structured. The world will continue, and so will Avalon, which is larger than any individual.

I want to thank Richard for his hard work and commitment to the forum over a long period of time, which probably feels to him even longer. He is a good man, and he snapped.

On my part, the final breakdown of trust happened when it was brought to my attention that he had shared with the other moderators that he intended to leave with a tell-all post that would be very deliberately negative and destructive. That may still come, but if it does, the vindictiveness that powers it will be transparent.

I told him, when I spoke with him on the phone a few hours ago, that the call was his whether to leave with dignity - or to leave with negativity, bitterness, and a fully destructive action. He said he would indeed make that call, and ended the conversation. I hope that he makes the correct decision, for the sake of his own karma.

I will terminate their accounts in 24 hours from now.

I thank Richard sincerely here for his many hours of commitment to make the world a better place in this particular way in which he has been able to contribute. The pressures he has been under have been near-impossible to manage or balance. He has been torn in half with his fierce loyalty to his wife Celine, and his equally fierce loyalty to myself and the forum. They could not reasonably coexist in one person.

Celine, like many of us, has her own internal battles to wage and her personal mountains to climb. But this forum is no longer the appropriate venue for that to be conducted in public view.

The pressure Richard was under erupted in so much suppressed anger that it is self-evident that he must take his leave. I have contacted the hosting company to change all the passwords to the server and elsewhere. I cannot risk a moment of angry insanity which would destroy the heartfelt co-creation of many thousands of people over a long year of human experience in all its richness. I regret that I felt obliged to take that protective step, but it was the right thing to do.

I regard all the moderators as my friends, and always have done. It's for them to choose whether to return my deep feeling of sincere fellowship. I expect a number of them to step down, and this is all fine. Beth has already done so, and I accepted her resignation, which she conveyed with all the dignity and grace that I would expect from her. I thank her here for her countless hours of hard work on behalf of you all, as I do Rich.

As I wrote above, the world continues. In the meantime, I will not see this forum polluted by negative emotion, smears, innuendoes, and unjustified personal attack. If we want to create a better world, it has to start here, with each of us personally and with the way we relate to others. While that construction job is in progress, there may be certain people who we exclude from the worksite. Ultimately, of course, we are all in this together.

With my best wishes to everyone ~ Bill

Thank you Bill

ExHaLaTiON
2nd March 2011, 07:51
WOW, what a mess ! And another one bites the dust......

Dont overreact , lets stay intact.

Love

Gone001
2nd March 2011, 07:51
--------

Thanks, Aldous:

My calling out Tone3Jaguar (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?10551-Why-I-am-leaving-this-forum&p=90182&viewfull=1#post90182) for using a pendulum to assess Wade Frazier's information as '11% accurate' was fully justified. Do take a moment to visit Wade Frazier's thread (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?10672-WADE-FRAZIER-A-Healed-Planet) and decide for yourself.

My use of the word 'stupid' was measured and deliberate. It was not an insult: it was true. It was an extreme demonstration of unintelligence on his part, and a destructive one inasmuch as he had a whole web page which announced his misplaced conclusions to the world. There are no double standards here.

After I had drawn attention to his postion, he left the forum of his own accord. All that was fine.

I've already seen it I was following along when it happened. I get what your saying but you wouldn't chase a mentally challenged person down the street yelling 'Retard' just because technically it's true. You don't follow around a little person shouting 'Midget'; you see what I'm saying? For the record I thought he was 'stupid' too. I think a lot of people are stupid (I come from Toronto, the land that lives and dies with the Toronto Maple Leafs, how stupid is that!!), but for the most part I keep it to myself :P. I hope you reconsider your position that's all I can hope for.

Cheers,

Aldous

write4change
2nd March 2011, 07:53
Dear Mr. Ryan,

We have never spoken but today has been a tough day for me. I am okay about has taken place and I was always prepared for consequences. I am committed to the success of this site and I hold out the intentions of acting at the right time, in the right way, and for all the right reasons.

I have been contacted by several other sites, I came from Dailykos and sent people here from there. I was actually very surprised by this and have had no such experience before. Since I stopped doing politics because I find it unproductive and kind of like many you have interviewed and I respect here -- I believe there has to be an intersection of politics, science, and spirituality. If I can only choose one I choose spirituality.

I have also been asked to do a radio interview by a small site essentially talking about cognitive dissonance and using this site as an example. I have declined because I do not see that as the solution to any thing. And in all honesty, due to my brain damage I do not speak that well.

I did post on the Mists of Avalon and I do not think it is negative to either this site or you. In that post, I reiterated my commitment to Avalon and my wanting to work for healing of us all.

More than anything I want to take some deep breaths and just be here and I am not moving forward with anything for a while. I have no idea what is true or not true.

So I decided that the one thing that may calm down a lot of fears is to ask you this one question. Can the moderators and the administrators read the PMs and are they free to do so? There are several people who have experienced things disappearing and feel what they thought was private of joking or between friends became triggers. I think you have the right to do this any way you desire but I think it is only fair to know how it works. I know for me personally this would eliminate a lot of concerns I have now. Just knowing how things work.

I sincerely appreciate your time and consideration in answering this.

Jai

chelmostef
2nd March 2011, 07:53
.......................

Paul
2nd March 2011, 07:55
I've already seen it I was following along when it happened. I get what your saying but you wouldn't chase a mentally challenged person down the street yelling 'Retard'We also make an effort here to distinguish between reports worthy of further consideration, and reports that lack such substance.

This was not just a labeling of a random attribute. It was a discernment on a matter of importance to the matters this site specializes in.

Paul
2nd March 2011, 07:59
Can the moderators and the administrators read the PMs and are they free to do so?

No, in general.

The sender can see the PM

The recipients can see the PM

Anyone they forward a PM to can see it

If a recipient reports the PM, say with concerns that it violates a website guideline, then the mods can see the reported PM

Gone001
2nd March 2011, 07:59
I've already seen it I was following along when it happened. I get what your saying but you wouldn't chase a mentally challenged person down the street yelling 'Retard'We also make an effort here to distinguish between reports worthy of further consideration, and reports that lack such substance.

This was not just a labeling of a random attribute. It was a discernment on a matter of importance to the matters this site specializes in.

...................
And the Cow goes MOOOOOOOOOOOO :)

watchZEITGEISTnow
2nd March 2011, 08:03
Perhaps a certain threshold for 'whistle-blowers' should be set as not to allow frauds and charlatans in...

Just sayin' (as they say)

:fencing:

Paul
2nd March 2011, 08:06
Perhaps a certain threshold for 'whistle-blowers' should be set as not to allow frauds and charlatans in...
Ultimately, the only threshold I know of is the judgment of good people.

Mike
2nd March 2011, 08:09
Of course it's your forum and your choice but I think you've made the wrong one. Richard snapped on one member yes, but I don't think that's a good enough reason to ask someone who has put two years of blood, sweat and tears into this forum to help you out in your quest, to leave. This whole situation leaves a very bitter taste in my mouth.

Human Beings go through their lives experiencing a complex range of emotions, not only love, we are not Care Bears. I recall a time when you yourself Bill flipped out on a member (repeatedly calling him stupid) for insulting the memory of one of your passed on friends (Mr.X R.I.P). This is of course no different then Richard saying what he said to stick up for his wife. No one held it against you when that happened (at least I didn't) because sometimes we loose our cool. It's important that this happens sometime so we can learn how to better grow.

I would never hold it against you for loosing your temper, hypocrisy, on the other hand, is a different story.

Cheers,

Aldous

if Richard just "snapped" it might be easier to recognize the validity of your argument here, but you have to admit, it was a little more than that;) people snap all the time on this forum and don't get banned. Richard went all freddy krueger on that guy. when certain lines are crossed, there is simply no turning back. Bill had no choice on this one.

Bill, will Lee-b be reinstated? i thought he had a fair and valid argumennt on the 'worm' thread, and i frankly did not understand all the vitriol tossed his way. don't think he got a fair shake there.

watchZEITGEISTnow
2nd March 2011, 08:10
..yes but was it listened to?

All i saw was people killing other people in the rush to board the train...

..never said it would be an easy thing to achieve - it is a hardy.

jorr lundstrom
2nd March 2011, 08:10
Can the moderators and the administrators read the PMs and are they free to do so?

No, in general.

The sender can see the PM

The recipients can see the PM

Anyone they forward a PM to can see it

If a recipient reports the PM, say with concerns that it violates a website guideline, then the mods can see the reported PM

In the rules Ive read its said that its not allowed for members to use someones PM in public.

Is it also forbidden to forward a PM to someone elses PM box without the writers permission. And if so, where is that written?

Love and carrots

Bill Ryan
2nd March 2011, 08:13
Bill, will Lee-b be reinstated? i thought he had a fair and valid argumennt on the 'worm' thread, and i frankly did not understand all the vitriol tossed his way. don't think he got a fair shake there.

Richard completely removed Lee_B from the database. I can't unban him, because his record was permanently deleted and he no longer exists. It was an extraordinary action.

chelmostef
2nd March 2011, 08:14
Hi bill, you may have read my posts in the worm tounge thread and thought perhaps my comments were a bit paranoid. I will state I have had no back room dealings of any nature in this facade.
I will also say I have watched this happening and its a conceited effort to take down Avalon, if you look closely you could see the wedges being hammered in... People are pitted against each other with one intention.

Now as we have heard things are event driven this is my biggest concern.

It this purely to shut us down before Avalons anniversary whose to say, perhaps something of a bigger nature afoot.

We all need to realise that potentially something quite large is going on, of course that is speculation, make of it what you will.

Chicodoodoo
2nd March 2011, 08:14
This seems a reasonable and measured response from Bill to an unfortunate incident. I am impressed that Richard and Celine are allowed to have a final word. That is very wise and in the best interests of transparency.

Paul
2nd March 2011, 08:15
The website provides a mechanism to allow you to forward a PM you receive, and there is no all encompassing rule against doing so. You should not forward a PM without some adequate understanding with the sender that it is ok to forward it, just as with anything else that someone else tells you, by whatever medium.

But I'm getting off topic here - sorry.

vibrations
2nd March 2011, 08:16
At the end the situation is quite simple. if I feel comfortable in a forum then I stay, if not, I go. There is no big deal. Embracing the forum as a part of personality is wrong. This is just a place where we share and learn the personal struggle is not appropriate for a simple reason, we do not know each other in person, and we just read a sparks of each ones daily thinking.

This is far away from knowing someone in various situations.

So, any anger, offence or deliberate judging is just a waste of time.

MHO

write4change
2nd March 2011, 08:16
Paul,

I appreciate your answer but people feel you are too new here to really know. Some outsiders looked at this program and said that it is available. I think Mr. Ryan needs to answer this. Trust has been broken and trust needs to be restored and that is Mr. Ryan's place and position.

Thank you for answering me.

perfectresonance
2nd March 2011, 08:18
Can the moderators and the administrators read the PMs and are they free to do so?

I'll answer this one in a generic sense.

You must never assume that any computer system, such as a forum, is operated in true privacy.

At all times, always, you rely on the integrity of the person/people who are in control of the technology.

If such people have a different outlook, different agenda, or hidden objectives, then that sort of trust is misplaced.

It basically comes down to this: NEVER write anything in a PM on a forum that you couldn't really stand behind if it became public.

Simply write everything assuming it already IS being read by others.

Finally, it depends on the forum software, how it is configured and at what level of integrity the admins/mods operate. But yes, there is theoretically NOTHING that stops them from accessing anything and everything if they CHOOSE to do so.

Or to share it with people that do not have such access.

Funnily enough, I was warning people about that EXACT same thing just in the last 24 hours. I hope they are taking notes.

Finally, a practical answer: If you have the need to have a private conversation, use the PM facility to exchange details on Skype IDs, email addresses or other such methods so the conversation can take place under the noses of different computer techs, admins and mods that have no knowledge or investment in what you end up sharing.


EDIT: (an afterthought - sorry)

And a warning: Just because you DELETE something and it disappears from view? It is probably not gone. Just flagged to no longer be displayed. Think about that before you write anything.

vibrations
2nd March 2011, 08:23
Can the moderators and the administrators read the PMs and are they free to do so?

I'll answer this one in a generic sense.

You must never assume that any computer system, such as a forum, is operated in true privacy.

At all times, always, you rely on the integrity of the person/people who are in control of the technology.

If such people have a different outlook, different agenda, or hidden objectives, then that sort of trust is misplaced.

It basically comes down to this: NEVER write anything in a PM on a forum that you couldn't really stand behind if it became public.

Simply write everything assuming it already IS being read by others.

Finally, it depends on the forum software, how it is configured and at what level of integrity the admins/mods operate. But yes, there is theoretically NOTHING that stops them from accessing anything and everything if they CHOOSE to do so.

Or to share it with people that do not have such access.

Funnily enough, I was warning people about that EXACT same thing just in the last 24 hours. I hope they are taking notes.

Finally, a practical answer: If you have the need to have a private conversation, use the PM facility to exchange details on Skype IDs, email addresses or other such methods so the conversation can take place under the noses of different computer techs, admins and mods that have no knowledge or investment in what you end up sharing.

YES, wise words.

Paul
2nd March 2011, 08:24
YES, wise words.
I agree, vibrations. Can we get back on topic now?

Tangri
2nd March 2011, 08:27
Paul,

I appreciate your answer but people feel you are too new here to really know. Some outsiders looked at this program and said that it is available. I think Mr. Ryan needs to answer this. Trust has been broken and trust needs to be restored and that is Mr. Ryan's place and position.

Thank you for answering me.

There are negative energies flying around (Sorry for my English white4chance)
you wrote this;

Originally Posted by write4change
Levent tonga,

I can tell you are not an original English speaker. I cannot determine what country you are coming from.

I still did not get your answer about your intent to determine on somewhat unrelated.

ace
2nd March 2011, 08:36
I Don't know Richard never spoke to him.

I know this, the situation the "MAN" was put in last night was "Beyond" what many could imagine.
He strikes me as a man of honour, who works relentlessly in a quite dignified manner.

It's a sad day for many.

Richard: You gave us a rear glimpse of your emotions with the butterfly lady tale.

I Know I am nobody here, more of clown than a wise man,
it's just my way of dealing with life.

I don't feel very funny today.

For what it's worth.

I am sorry.

Ace

vibrations
2nd March 2011, 08:38
YES, wise words.
I agree, vibrations. Can we get back on topic now?

I don't know If I am to off topic, but for me the most important is that we do not argue about what is affecting me about some written words of someone. We all have our fears and our weak points, so a lot of things can hit me in a maybe innocent conversation.

And when I think that for example you offended me, there is a big possibility that you are telling truth. So, it's better to think about it instead of jump and bite.

Following this logic, communication becomes more fluid.

chelmostef
2nd March 2011, 08:41
Avalon was working and going along nicely up until Christmas. I have to question everything up until that point.

Is this just a loss of temper that happens sometimes or is there something else at work.... I have to question the motivations upon what has happened here.

Is this an Conceited effort against Avalon to blow itself up? This is the question I ask myself, I have watched the wedges being stuck.

Bill Ryan
2nd March 2011, 08:41
Can the moderators and the administrators read the PMs and are they free to do so? There are several people who have experienced things disappearing and feel what they thought was private of joking or between friends became triggers.

As best I know, no admins or moderators can ever read members' private messages. I certainly can't, and have never thought of doing so. Richard has had a deeper level of access to the inner workings of the forum software, but I believe he cannot either.

Fire Dragon
2nd March 2011, 08:44
Thankyou Bill, i joined this site looking for truth's and for a way to grow, as i was reading the "worm tounge" thread, i began asking myself what am i doing reading this. I have seen this behaviour before and i know the result, EGO was taking over from the underlying virtues of this site. This is fundamentaly a place of information to grow, to learn, find new understandings to become the best of humanity. None of us want to get back to all the b***s**t that we were before we arrived here.
Thanks for nipping this behavoir in the bud and from letting these ego based happenings from distracting us from why we joined here.
Namaste, xie xie, and lets get back to what we are here for :D

write4change
2nd March 2011, 08:45
Levent tonga,

Today is a day for doing things publicly. In the thread we were discussing I brought up Lord of the Flies and you said my example was not valid because it was written by a man and not a boy. You also said you were an MD child psychologist. I looked at your profile to see what country you are from. I see cultural context as always important.

As an English teacher, I would say men write stories because of their childhood memories and experiences. I do not think what country you come from is irrelevant. Nor do I think one psychological analysis fits all.

I hope that clears up this matter for you. If not, you and I need to resort to PMs as this is not relevant to this topic.

chelmostef
2nd March 2011, 08:46
No you are wrong this has not happened on AV2 to the same extent... Its happened once before on another platform, look what happened then, we were compromised.

astrid
2nd March 2011, 08:47
People stressing about who can read what are missing the point!!

Maybe be a few good lessons in here for when we are all telepathic...

bashi
2nd March 2011, 08:49
There are no double standards here.



I like that

chelmostef
2nd March 2011, 08:50
I really hope I am being paranoid, if I am then I will look bad and that's the end of the story. If I am right well, we have to think clearly and logically and not play the game as intended.

kerbie
2nd March 2011, 08:58
--------

Celine, like many of us, has her own internal battles to wage and her personal mountains to climb. But this forum is no longer the appropriate venue for that to be conducted in public view.

Amen to that! All the best with your searching Celine, I really do hope that you find what you are looking for.

Tangri
2nd March 2011, 09:01
Levent tonga,

Today is a day for doing things publicly. In the thread we were discussing I brought up Lord of the Flies and you said my example was not valid because it was written by a man and not a boy. You also said you were an MD child psychologist. I looked at your profile to see what country you are from. I see cultural context as always important.

As an English teacher, I would say men write stories because of their childhood memories and experiences. I do not think what country you come from is irrelevant. Nor do I think one psychological analysis fits all.

I hope that clears up this matter for you. If not, you and I need to resort to PMs as this is not relevant to this topic.

Just last clearance: Psychiatrist and Psychologist sounds like they are similar but first one requires 6 more years to become one.
Love and Peace

butcherman
2nd March 2011, 09:05
well said bill, this is a sanctuary for like minded people. please protect this place from what can only be described as a thuggish school play ground mentality, it has no place on these pages.
over the past 5 years the camelot school of life has kept me going through thick and thin keep up the good work .

Tuza
2nd March 2011, 09:05
Perhaps a certain threshold for 'whistle-blowers' should be set as not to allow frauds and charlatans in...

Just sayin' (as they say)

:fencing:



You think. :confused::rolleyes:

wolf_rt
2nd March 2011, 09:09
well, all i can say is its always a shame to see people allow themselves be manipulated.

Tuza
2nd March 2011, 09:10
There are no double standards here.



I like that


???????????????????????? I am pondering, just pondering.

chelmostef
2nd March 2011, 09:10
Anyone who wants to tell their story should be able to come here...IMO
We have to use our discernment

Tuza
2nd March 2011, 09:11
well, all i can say is its always a shame to see people allow themselves be manipulated.

Yes I do agree and with that I am off to watch some good old msm.

dejavu
2nd March 2011, 09:13
I have only been posting for a short while and have recognised with fresh eyes there are some tensions and difficulties in Avalon just now. I came to this sight as a truth seeker and found it difficult to swallow the internal tensions that were spilling out over many posts. There does seem to be big changes afoot and people react in different ways. Unfortunately two dedicated people seem to be causalities of what might be described as 'war' and I'm sorry about that. However, necessary in my opinion and it was done according to what Bill has written in this post with care, love, regret and much integrity. As I mostly watch from a distance I see good people here for good reasons being distracted from the 'truth' with internal politics, Charles and the following negativity. I hope this is a turning point and people can focus on what's important and remember why they joined this forum in the first place.

kersley
2nd March 2011, 09:25
Bill, will Lee-b be reinstated? i thought he had a fair and valid argumennt on the 'worm' thread, and i frankly did not understand all the vitriol tossed his way. don't think he got a fair shake there.

Richard completely removed Lee_B from the database. I can't unban him, because his record was permanently deleted and he no longer exists. It was an extraordinary action.

Based on this, Richard is not fit for the job. Threatening members and using your position to over power others is most definitely crossing the line.
Rules and boundaries are set for a reason. If you can't stay within them, then one must do the honorable thing and leave.
This must have been a tough decision to make Bill? I commend you for been strong and keeping your focus on what is best for the Avalon.

I will miss Richard specially Celine. I trust that in time we will all learn from this.
Kersley

Agape
2nd March 2011, 09:32
It's a savior decision , thanks Bill . After countless unpaid hours spent on administrating and moderating such a huge forum for almost 2 or 3 years ,
their family schedule and ordinary run have to be seriously affected .

Maybe we all need to breathe more than to type and watch our wives back on Internet forum ?

I'd say , dear Rich and Celine, give yourself a freedom .

Life does not have to end in hurts .


:angel:

HaveBlue
2nd March 2011, 09:44
When this or any forum becomes your whole life it takes a good friend to give you the wake up you need. Well done Bill. You are a class act. \m/

Chuck
2nd March 2011, 09:48
Bill, I suspect this has been a very difficult time for you as well as for Richard, Celine, Beth and of course all the other mods and administrators. I am sorry for Avalon’s loss. Those three have had significant influence on building a dynamic, inspired forum.

I join with you in giving my heartfelt thanks to Richard, Celine and Beth for their service to help bring knowledge, foster fellowship, inspire contemplation and bring a smile to a fellow pilgrim.

I honor the light within you... and you and you and you!

Donna O
2nd March 2011, 09:49
*my first post was a mistake, apologies, this is what I should have wrote here.
I feel very sad for those that are involved, I knew none of them personally but as a stranger watching events unfold it was an old storyline that has been played out over and over….

Celine became empowered by Richard’s position, it would have been hard not to do, she was emotionally attached to the forum. Gypsy woman challenged that position and it became a power struggle. Richard was caught right in the middle and obviously, his wife comes first…

It’s always a bad idea to mix business with pleasure; it’s a well known saying for a very good reason.

Lets hope this can be a good learning process for all.

Avalon is only at risk if people decide to use slander and accusations against it’s main players, think carefully before you post….

HURRITT ENYETO
2nd March 2011, 09:50
A sad day for Avalon indeed.
Can i say to the remaining Mods and Admin PLEASE DONT LEAVE It appears Avalon is still Hemorrhaging please lets try and stem the flow.

NinjaPhil
2nd March 2011, 09:57
Thanks Bill for making this difficult call. Celine and Rich will surely be missed but this was clearly a necessary action for the benefit of the community.

It's upsetting that many here are letting internal politics of the site take such a huge hold on their life. This gets all too easy behind the anonymity of the internet and can very easily draw out the worst in people. Arguing over whether PM's can be read or should be forwarded is missing the point, if you say something to another person and mean it you shouldn't care who else sees it. More importantly, if that is the case you probably shouldn't be saying it in the first place!

The reality of this is that this isn't real. We are making up our own politics and social situations and creating our own self importances and inflicting them on the community as a whole. Charles didn't do this WE did. Anyone who takes part in the arguing/bickering is doing it. There's a choice here, if someone posts something attacking you do you rise back and get drawn into it or do you ignore it/report it to the mods if appropriate. The simple answer is what Bill is saying, we are all amazing great people here but sometimes you get incompatibilities in which case the correct answer is to be asked to leave for the good of the group.

If you find yourself arguing or being abusive just stop, ask yourself WHY are you doing this? Does it benefit you or anyone else? Why are you here? Let that answer guide you. Again there's a report to moderator button - make use of it if it is needed rather than letting ego/politics take control.

With great respect and love of everyone here,

Phil

Tangri
2nd March 2011, 10:04
A sad day for Avalon indeed.
Can i say to the remaining Mods and Admin PLEASE DONT LEAVE It appears Avalon is still Hemorrhaging please lets try and stem the flow.

Well If they are leaving without giving an explanation and act just to support Richard(who was using his position to verbally abusing and invasion of privacy( which Celine was tipping off some members origin)-) than I wish them luck on their journey
Love and peace might with you

Anchor
2nd March 2011, 10:05
My calling out Tone3Jaguar (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?10551-Why-I-am-leaving-this-forum&p=90182&viewfull=1#post90182) for using a pendulum to assess Wade Frazier's information as '11% accurate' was fully justified. Do take a moment to visit.

Bill,

Here is a quote of yours from the old forum. 03-04-2010 - not even a year ago.

http://projectavalon.net/forum/showpost.php?p=247817&postcount=24



I would just like to say that this individual Jake Simpson / John Burns comes up 23% factually accurate when I dowse it. Then when I ask if he is an agent it comes up YES.

I'd say that you're 100% correct.

I'm impressed... tell us what else you get on anything else that comes to mind (Seriously)

I'm not picking a fight here or anything, but tone3jaguar was basically a nice guy on this forum and I think this whole matter should be left alone now. However, I cant sit on my hands while I see him continually characterised as stupid - he was anything but stupid and he was sincere about his method and gave full disclosure, accepting that he could be wrong. He did not set out to smear your friend - he simply reported his findings.

I am not arguing about what you felt about his post on his forum - I may well have been angry too and would have argued my case.

By you perpetuating this here in this thread I feel forced to point this out - again.

John..

kersley
2nd March 2011, 10:07
@ NinjaPhil.
Arguing over whether PM's can be read or should be forwarded is missing the point, if you say something to another person and mean it you shouldn't care who else sees it. More importantly, if that is the case you probably shouldn't be saying it in the first place!

You are a true Ninja Phil..Thanks

Sarlic
2nd March 2011, 10:14
Thanks for the post Bill

Im glad you have stepped in and sorted this out it really needed to be done.

Can i just say that i know more then most about losing your temper and saying things that you regret later on.
It happens to the best of us and just shows that you are human and can make mistakes or in my case will make mistakes.

Yourself and all the mods on this forum do a great job and i have a lot of respect for what you have achieved here at Avalon
But im a firm believer in giving people second chances and more if needed so please think about not completely closeing the door on anyone thats been banned recently.

Also i would like to end on......

Welcome back Bill you have been missed by all at Avalon and its good to see your hat doing the rounds again.

Peace mate
John

jorr lundstrom
2nd March 2011, 10:16
Thank you Bill, for your ability to know when and how to use your sword.:hug:

Merkaba360
2nd March 2011, 10:17
As I sit on the bottom of the pyramid looking up in awe.........

The people on top so caught up in the drama.....So identified with their positions and self importance.

Self importance is the core of everything wonderful and rotten in us. The rotten part drains our energy ruthlessly.

I wonder what its like to be so involved? Hard to imagine from a slaves position.

Many rise up to the top of the pyramid to have their ego truly tested. It seems most have great difficulty. I guess it gives me more compassion for the elite trying to kill my slave butt.

A good dose of suffering will bring any elitist back to reality. Is there an easier way? Any other way? For I wouldn't wish suffering on others.

I think the spirit might be prepping some nobodies who have been pummeled with suffering, demolishing their egos, to rise to the call of humanity and be leaders.

Omni
2nd March 2011, 10:26
Wow I was completely ignorant of this drama. Shame it happened. I still think this forum is the best on the internet. I may be ignorant of a lot of what goes on here, but I've never seen a forum as good as this one in terms of poster quality and reason. This place is a major asset to the internet as I see it and I am very thankful to have found this place. Practically every member here is a diamond in the rough as far as I'm concerned. Please do not let this damper your view of this forum(If you can). Please do not contribute in any way that may harm this forum and group of people. I ask myself before each post "is this offering anything of value?", if it doesn't pass the test, I don't post it. I think Bills noise post was a great thing to do and had a good vision to it from him..

I'm new here so maybe it's not my place to give advice or do requests... But I think the best thing to do is move forward. Address it, understand/learn from it, express yourself, and move on. Every great organization faces challenges like this. It's best to have class and integrity as much as you can. Emotions are great to have, but at the same time they can lead to very irrational and harmful energy. If I can offer advice to any who lost their cool, reflect on what created that, and maybe you can prevent from reacting to it in such a way in the future. One can learn from anything.

I support Bill's decision. I must admit, I am curious about what exactly Celine(and maybe Richard) was talking about when putting Bill down. But that is something I can live without if they decide not to post about it. I do like Bill's decision to let them address the forum before they go if they desire. That speaks class to me, and having class and integrity in a situation like this is a great asset I want to commend Bill for.

Even the brightest group of humans can succumb to darker emotions from what I have seen. Hopefully all involved take lessons learned from this happening, and improve their selves in the longrun from this.

Richard and Celine I don't really know you well, but I wish you the best in your experiences, and hope this does not affect you in a negative way too much. Live and learn and carry on.

Bill: If there is anything I can do to help let me know(or us know).

elysian
2nd March 2011, 10:30
Some of you are me having a bad day,
Some of you are me having a great day,

I love me,
I love all of you!

:love:


We are all one

HURRITT ENYETO
2nd March 2011, 10:34
Can i personally thank Beth and Richard (both Admins) for all their hard work and thier freindship (in beths case) you have made this forum what it is and are both special people.
I truly will miss you and wish you all the best in all your future endeavor's :)
Yesterdays incident was regrettable and i played a small part saying that i thought one of Richards comments was ammusing which was a stupid thing to say.
We live and learn.

bodixa
2nd March 2011, 10:34
Can the moderators and the administrators read the PMs and are they free to do so? There are several people who have experienced things disappearing and feel what they thought was private of joking or between friends became triggers.

As best I know, no admins or moderators can ever read members' private messages. I certainly can't, and have never thought of doing so. Richard has had a deeper level of access to the inner workings of the forum software, but I believe he cannot either.

It is possible - there are at least 2 ways.

One is a VBulletin 'extension' that you can install. The other is that anyone with the skill and the usernames/passwords can get into the database entries directly using something like phpmyadmin - it's all sitting there.


Sad story. Shame it had to happen.

Tuza
2nd March 2011, 10:38
And some of you members are younger than my three kids. Eventhough the youngest will be 29 this month they are still my babies, that is how I view them.

Having said that I am going to keep my old butt in this forearm until I look like a penguin because I care about you kids while I am still wearing this meat suit.

So, having a couple of very well known people in the conspiracy area I can count on as being good friends (which I wont name) who are not members here, if I feel my input is necessary I shall be herewith putting it forth. If I feel something is definitely amiss from now on I shall be espousing it.

Richard you sweated blood, sweat and tears here, not a very nice way to depart after all your hard work, but you will be a lot less stressed and you wont have to put up and shut up anymore.

Celine
2nd March 2011, 11:02
--------

Thanks, Aldous:

My calling out Tone3Jaguar (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?10551-Why-I-am-leaving-this-forum&p=90182&viewfull=1#post90182) for using a pendulum to assess Wade Frazier's information as '11% accurate' was fully justified. Do take a moment to visit Wade Frazier's thread (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?10672-WADE-FRAZIER-A-Healed-Planet) and decide for yourself.

My use of the word 'stupid' was measured and deliberate. It was not an insult: it was true. It was an extreme demonstration of unintelligence on his part, and a destructive one inasmuch as he had a whole web page which announced his misplaced conclusions to the world. There are no double standards here.

After I had drawn attention to his postion, he left the forum of his own accord. All that was fine.

If it;s true its an acceptable insult... i will remember that when i take my leave..

¤=[Post Update]=¤



--------

Thanks, Aldous:

My calling out Tone3Jaguar (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?10551-Why-I-am-leaving-this-forum&p=90182&viewfull=1#post90182) for using a pendulum to assess Wade Frazier's information as '11% accurate' was fully justified. Do take a moment to visit Wade Frazier's thread (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?10672-WADE-FRAZIER-A-Healed-Planet) and decide for yourself.

My use of the word 'stupid' was measured and deliberate. It was not an insult: it was true. It was an extreme demonstration of unintelligence on his part, and a destructive one inasmuch as he had a whole web page which announced his misplaced conclusions to the world. There are no double standards here.

After I had drawn attention to his postion, he left the forum of his own accord. All that was fine.

I've already seen it I was following along when it happened. I get what your saying but you wouldn't chase a mentally challenged person down the street yelling 'Retard' just because technically it's true. You don't follow around a little person shouting 'Midget'; you see what I'm saying? For the record I thought he was 'stupid' too. I think a lot of people are stupid (I come from Toronto, the land that lives and dies with the Toronto Maple Leafs, how stupid is that!!), but for the most part I keep it to myself :P. I hope you reconsider your position that's all I can hope for.

Cheers,

Aldous

He has accussed me of being unstable many times... but i guess if its true... then using any word as an insult is ok...

i am not upset ...just learning

Celine
2nd March 2011, 11:11
Can the moderators and the administrators read the PMs and are they free to do so?

No, in general.

The sender can see the PM

The recipients can see the PM

Anyone they forward a PM to can see it

If a recipient reports the PM, say with concerns that it violates a website guideline, then the mods can see the reported PM

In the rules Ive read its said that its not allowed for members to use someones PM in public.

Is it also forbidden to forward a PM to someone elses PM box without the writers permission. And if so, where is that written?

Love and carrots

This was done by many ppl including Bill

¤=[Post Update]=¤




Can the moderators and the administrators read the PMs and are they free to do so? There are several people who have experienced things disappearing and feel what they thought was private of joking or between friends became triggers.

As best I know, no admins or moderators can ever read members' private messages. I certainly can't, and have never thought of doing so. Richard has had a deeper level of access to the inner workings of the forum software, but I believe he cannot either.

It is possible - there are at least 2 ways.

One is a VBulletin 'extension' that you can install. The other is that anyone with the skill and the usernames/passwords can get into the database entries directly using something like phpmyadmin - it's all sitting there.


Sad story. Shame it had to happen.

Admins can read pm's/// stop lying to ppl

¤=[Post Update]=¤


I Don't know Richard never spoke to him.

I know this, the situation the "MAN" was put in last night was "Beyond" what many could imagine.
He strikes me as a man of honour, who works relentlessly in a quite dignified manner.

It's a sad day for many.

Richard: You gave us a rear glimpse of your emotions with the butterfly lady tale.

I Know I am nobody here, more of clown than a wise man,
it's just my way of dealing with life.

I don't feel very funny today.

For what it's worth.

I am sorry.

Ace

Richard is a ver none emotionaly reactive man... Bill pushed him to the limits...

¤=[Post Update]=¤


Avalon was working and going along nicely up until Christmas. I have to question everything up until that point.

Is this just a loss of temper that happens sometimes or is there something else at work.... I have to question the motivations upon what has happened here.

Is this an Conceited effort against Avalon to blow itself up? This is the question I ask myself, I have watched the wedges being stuck.

Atticus arrival was badly managed.... the stres this put the mod team was unrealistic...

A true management team would have had a lot more ressources to help them...

Bill but a huge load on volunteers

Bill Ryan
2nd March 2011, 11:15
Admins can read pm's/// stop lying to ppl

If the Avalon admins can read Private Messages, this is the first I've ever heard of it. I appreciate the confirmation. This may now explain a great deal to quite a few people.

The thought of deliberately looking into members' PMs had never occurred to me, and I did not think it was possible. You are correct: we are learning.

Hawkwind
2nd March 2011, 11:16
I said more or less this before in another post, but it seems worth repeating here. If Charles is being straight with us, then there are very powerful people, (including some of the planet's best psychics with access to technologies far ahead of anything in the public sector), who would have a vested interest in stopping what's going on here. If Charles isn't being straight with us then his most likely reason for his being here would be to take Bill down and tear Avalon apart. Bill has already mentioned that Charles was able to plant a specific thought in his mind (go to the Swiss Air desk and ask for a standby ticket) and Charles later confirmed this. Is it so difficult to believe then that feelings of uncontrolled rage or deep betrayal could also be sent someone's way? One way or another I'm sure Avalon and her members are the focus of powerful forces aimed at causing unrest here. I'd like to ask everyone to be mindful of this at least as a possibility, and the need to stay as centered as possible when participating in discussions here. The best way I've found to deal with agent provocateurs, for example, is to remain in good humor and laugh at their attempts. If I can't do that, I've found that walking away from the situation for a bit and listening to music or working in my garden helps. Yes, I know all of that may strike some people as a bit paranoid, but as the saying goes- just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get me.
I'm very sad at what has happened, so I can only imagine how Bill, Richard and Celine are feeling. Much love to you all.

Celine
2nd March 2011, 11:17
well said bill, this is a sanctuary for like minded people. please protect this place from what can only be described as a thuggish school play ground mentality, it has no place on these pages.
over the past 5 years the camelot school of life has kept me going through thick and thin keep up the good work .

it did deteriorate to that didnt it...

Bill has a big responsibility in that ...but i do not believe he is man enough to admit it

DevilPigeon
2nd March 2011, 11:18
Can the moderators and the administrators read the PMs and are they free to do so?

I'll answer this one in a generic sense.

You must never assume that any computer system, such as a forum, is operated in true privacy.

At all times, always, you rely on the integrity of the person/people who are in control of the technology.

If such people have a different outlook, different agenda, or hidden objectives, then that sort of trust is misplaced.

It basically comes down to this: NEVER write anything in a PM on a forum that you couldn't really stand behind if it became public.

Simply write everything assuming it already IS being read by others.

Finally, it depends on the forum software, how it is configured and at what level of integrity the admins/mods operate. But yes, there is theoretically NOTHING that stops them from accessing anything and everything if they CHOOSE to do so.

Or to share it with people that do not have such access.

Funnily enough, I was warning people about that EXACT same thing just in the last 24 hours. I hope they are taking notes.

Finally, a practical answer: If you have the need to have a private conversation, use the PM facility to exchange details on Skype IDs, email addresses or other such methods so the conversation can take place under the noses of different computer techs, admins and mods that have no knowledge or investment in what you end up sharing.


EDIT: (an afterthought - sorry)

And a warning: Just because you DELETE something and it disappears from view? It is probably not gone. Just flagged to no longer be displayed. Think about that before you write anything.

i agree with that, but just to expand slightly...

at the back-end of the majority of forum sites is a MySQL database. if you've got sufficient access to the server that this sits on, then i'd suggest that you've got sufficient access to all the base tables that comprise a forum - EVERYTHING. if you've got a basic knowledge of SQL, and can figure out how the tables join, it's very easy to write a query that will output whatever info you want....

and the point about deletions is also worthy of another mention - it's considered good practice (eg from an audit/legislative perspective) not to delete records, but merely mark them as unavailable.

Celine
2nd March 2011, 11:21
Anyone who wants to tell their story should be able to come here...IMO
We have to use our discernment

Yes... writting things down... timelines etc... actions taken or not...

is good advice

¤=[Post Update]=¤


I have only been posting for a short while and have recognised with fresh eyes there are some tensions and difficulties in Avalon just now. I came to this sight as a truth seeker and found it difficult to swallow the internal tensions that were spilling out over many posts. There does seem to be big changes afoot and people react in different ways. Unfortunately two dedicated people seem to be causalities of what might be described as 'war' and I'm sorry about that. However, necessary in my opinion and it was done according to what Bill has written in this post with care, love, regret and much integrity. As I mostly watch from a distance I see good people here for good reasons being distracted from the 'truth' with internal politics, Charles and the following negativity. I hope this is a turning point and people can focus on what's important and remember why they joined this forum in the first place.

Yes he is well trained to write and speak publicaly...something many admire in him,,,so when i saw the opposite in private..i was floored

manny
2nd March 2011, 11:22
celine
do you remember the conversation that me you and richard had the other night on chat.
where a member claimed it was possible to hack into peoples account on here.
i asked richard to review the conversation and check into it.
i believe that it was dismissed.

bill is there a need to ask celine and richard to leave.
why not just take a couple of weeks break.
love and peace

ace
2nd March 2011, 11:24
Abolish The PM service. Have it all up front. Were it should be.

Transparency = Truth, Understanding and Peace of mind.

PM= Paranoia.

Ace

Celine
2nd March 2011, 11:29
It's a savior decision , thanks Bill . After countless unpaid hours spent on administrating and moderating such a huge forum for almost 2 or 3 years ,
their family schedule and ordinary run have to be seriously affected .

Maybe we all need to breathe more than to type and watch our wives back on Internet forum ?

I'd say , dear Rich and Celine, give yourself a freedom .

Life does not have to end in hurts .


:angel:

Thanks for your concern eva..

But when i informed you in pvt (a desion that broke my heart)..tha Atticus was talking to Barry (without telling him he was Atticus) ...you immedietly told Bill..

And this is part of the beggining of the end..

I had been keeping the secret of who Atticus was (BMW) but felt Barry should know ... even if Bill didnt.

Your reasons for telling bill are unknown to me ...but..... it was catastrophic...

I did it because i love barry.

¤=[Post Update]=¤


Bill, I suspect this has been a very difficult time for you as well as for Richard, Celine, Beth and of course all the other mods and administrators. I am sorry for Avalon’s loss. Those three have had significant influence on building a dynamic, inspired forum.

I join with you in giving my heartfelt thanks to Richard, Celine and Beth for their service to help bring knowledge, foster fellowship, inspire contemplation and bring a smile to a fellow pilgrim.

I honor the light within you... and you and you and you!

Hello Chuck..thank you...and dont worry the flowers for your daughter will stillbe stunning!!

¤=[Post Update]=¤


*my first post was a mistake, apologies, this is what I should have wrote here.
I feel very sad for those that are involved, I knew none of them personally but as a stranger watching events unfold it was an old storyline that has been played out over and over….

Celine became empowered by Richard’s position, it would have been hard not to do, she was emotionally attached to the forum. Gypsy woman challenged that position and it became a power struggle. Richard was caught right in the middle and obviously, his wife comes first…

It’s always a bad idea to mix business with pleasure; it’s a well known saying for a very good reason.

Lets hope this can be a good learning process for all.

Avalon is only at risk if people decide to use slander and accusations against it’s main players, think carefully before you post….

Thank you ..very good advice and observation...

Bill would you say your...emotions...and ..attractions ...got in the way??

Anchor
2nd March 2011, 11:29
vbBulletin out of the box, does not provide the ability for admins to read peoples PM's - and if such a dishonourable thing were to be done, real effort needs to be expended.

However, one can add extensions to the software that makes it possible - if this has happened it is easy to verify, and concealment of this requires collusion in a manner that is difficult to maintain. Independent audit can reveal the signs.

And DevilPigeon explained the SQL approach.

That fact that either of these things are possible - does not mean it actually happened it just means that it may have.

I would be amazed if any of the current administrators with back end access would had abused their position in this manner.

Tommy
2nd March 2011, 11:35
Admins can read pm's/// stop lying to ppl

If the Avalon admins can read Private Messages, this is the first I've ever heard of it. I appreciate the confirmation. This may now explain a great deal to quite a few people.

The thought of deliberately looking into members' PMs had never occurred to me, and I did not think it was possible. You are correct: we are learning.

This is true indeed Bill, it is possible with the right knowledge or tools. Even if this site was encrypted, but one (admins) has back-end\server\site access it is possible to access all site data through (as mentioned) phpMyAdmin or by using simplified extensions (basically doing the same thing, but for novice SQL users.

I am not saying that anyone has done this (how could I know), but I think it is only fair to give you the information since you apparently did not know about this.
Personally I have always (since working with Kerry) been aware of this fact, and because of it I had to use even stronger discernment finding the right admins\moderators.

It is all about character and integrity when it comes down to it.

Just wanted to add this, other than that I hope you all find your way in good health. This was a very unfortunate ending of a large chapter.

My sympathies to you Bill for the situation you have been put into, I do not envy you one last bit...

All the best,

Tommy

Post update:

Like John said, if using an extension for this purpose then it would be easy to figure out (if it has been done)

However, if has been done through SQL queries then it would be a lot harder (if not impossible) to track down who\what\when whomever did it (if at all).

ace
2nd March 2011, 11:41
Admins can read pm's/// stop lying to ppl

If the Avalon admins can read Private Messages, this is the first I've ever heard of it. I appreciate the confirmation. This may now explain a great deal to quite a few people.

The thought of deliberately looking into members' PMs had never occurred to me, and I did not think it was possible. You are correct: we are learning.

This is true indeed Bill, it is possible with the right knowledge or tools. Even if this site was encrypted, but one (admins) has back-end\server\site access it is possible to access all site data through (as mentioned) phpMyAdmin or by using simplified extensions (basically doing the same thing, but for novice SQL users.

I am not saying that anyone has done this (how could I know), but I think it is only fair to give you the information since you apparently did not know about this.
Personally I have always (since working with Kerry) been aware of this fact, and because of it I had to use even stronger discernment finding the right admins\moderators.

It is all about character and integrity when it comes down to it.

Just wanted to add this, other than that I hope you all find your way in good health. This was a very unfortunate ending of a large chapter.

My sympathies to you Bill for the situation you have been put into, I do not envy you one last bit...

All the best,

Tommy

If it does not kill you. It will only make you stronger.

This place will sore to greater heights.

And the sun will shine.

As good people find their way home

To the promised land.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fg3vzl_VwLc

Ace

Adaiahsshadow
2nd March 2011, 11:42
Abolish The PM service. Have it all up front. Were it should be.

Transparency = Truth, Understanding and Peace of mind.

PM= Paranoia.

Ace

I'd have to disagree with you on this one Ace. The reason being is that I never discuss someone else in PM, however I have many times worked with people concerning what they feel are personal issues. Seeing as you are one of my friends does that mean that if I came to you with a personal issue, you would have no problem discussing it publicly without my consent? I sincerely hope not.

Namaste.

Celine
2nd March 2011, 11:45
I said more or less this before in another post, but it seems worth repeating here. If Charles is being straight with us, then there are very powerful people, (including some of the planet's best psychics with access to technologies far ahead of anything in the public sector), who would have a vested interest in stopping what's going on here. If Charles isn't being straight with us then his most likely reason for his being here would be to take Bill down and tear Avalon apart. Bill has already mentioned that Charles was able to plant a specific thought in his mind (go to the Swiss Air desk and ask for a standby ticket) and Charles later confirmed this. Is it so difficult to believe then that feelings of uncontrolled rage or deep betrayal could also be sent someone's way? One way or another I'm sure Avalon and her members are the focus of powerful forces aimed at causing unrest here. I'd like to ask everyone to be mindful of this at least as a possibility, and the need to stay as centered as possible when participating in discussions here. The best way I've found to deal with agent provocateurs, for example, is to remain in good humor and laugh at their attempts. If I can't do that, I've found that walking away from the situation for a bit and listening to music or working in my garden helps. Yes, I know all of that may strike some people as a bit paranoid, but as the saying goes- just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get me.
I'm very sad at what has happened, so I can only imagine how Bill, Richard and Celine are feeling. Much love to you all.

Ok this is the last post i make on this thread...


Richard has been an essential part of everything here.

This is a very big issue,.,and richard should never go..

Bill..

I will go...never come back...i will keep my word and never talk about all the things you are worried i will talk about.

Richard belongs on this trip with you.

The bomb threat...if i know my husband.... was his way of getting you to respond, he knew one f the mods would tell you.

His thought process is always about Avalon... your behavior was indicating to him that you had 0 intentions of dealing with the problems at hand...he felt like a parent without choices... you put him in positions time and time again, where he felt he had no choice..

These are volunteers....giving more then any i have ever seen on line...please tell me what you offerd as support?

They went above and beyond the call of duty many times.. Richard was asking you to do the same...and you failed him

So...as i said above...i will go..

one word here..or in pvt will be enough.."ok"<--just say that...and you wont need 24 hours..

Sit and talk ..WITH richard not at him... and i promise it will work out..

Richard and i both had one card to play ...and we lost.

But its just one hand...

This is the 11th hour...

Please take more time to think this thru... Richard is much more important here then i am...

with love...and deep sadness... i am sorry for any pain or trouble i have caused anyone...it was never my intent. All i wanted to do was be with my husband... and to help Avalon...this is all i truly wanted you to understand bill...please, in respect to the time and heart we both gave you and the forum...

i ask for forgiveness..

¤=[Post Update]=¤




Admins can read pm's/// stop lying to ppl

If the Avalon admins can read Private Messages, this is the first I've ever heard of it. I appreciate the confirmation. This may now explain a great deal to quite a few people.

The thought of deliberately looking into members' PMs had never occurred to me, and I did not think it was possible. You are correct: we are learning.

Bill you were at the table..at the coffee shop..and Richard told you

ace
2nd March 2011, 11:48
Abolish The PM service. Have it all up front. Were it should be.

Transparency = Truth, Understanding and Peace of mind.

PM= Paranoia.

Ace

I'd have to disagree with you on this one Ace. The reason being is that I never discuss someone else in PM, however I have many times worked with people concerning what they feel are personal issues. Seeing as you are one of my friends does that mean that if I came to you with a personal issue, you would have no problem discussing it publicly without my consent? I sincerely hope not.

Namaste.

Have i ever.

Ace

Bill Ryan
2nd March 2011, 11:50
Admins can read pm's/// stop lying to ppl

If the Avalon admins can read Private Messages, this is the first I've ever heard of it. I appreciate the confirmation. This may now explain a great deal to quite a few people.

The thought of deliberately looking into members' PMs had never occurred to me, and I did not think it was possible. You are correct: we are learning.

Bill you were at the table..at the coffee shop..and Richard told you

This is now a little like that scene in A FEW GOOD MEN with Jack Nicholson.

You're damned right we read Private Messages!!

This is totally not funny, of course. That part of me that habitually makes references to movie moments had to make the link. I guess humor is a form of attempted denial. I really did not want this to be true.

Adaiahsshadow
2nd March 2011, 11:51
Abolish The PM service. Have it all up front. Were it should be.

Transparency = Truth, Understanding and Peace of mind.

PM= Paranoia.

Ace

I'd have to disagree with you on this one Ace. The reason being is that I never discuss someone else in PM, however I have many times worked with people concerning what they feel are personal issues. Seeing as you are one of my friends does that mean that if I came to you with a personal issue, you would have no problem discussing it publicly without my consent? I sincerely hope not.

Namaste.

Have i ever.

Ace

No. Although I have not brought an issue to you. I'm simply making a point. I understand your reasoning and I agree if you can't say something in front of someone, then you definately shouldn't be saying it behind their back. Though there is a lot of good work that is done around here in private with those we have grown to trust and respect. Abolishing that would cut off that avenue of healing for several members.

namaste

Icecold
2nd March 2011, 11:53
vbBulletin out of the box, does not provide the ability for admins to read peoples PM's - and if such a dishonourable thing were to be done, real effort needs to be expended.

However, one can add extensions to the software that makes it possible - if this has happened it is easy to verify, and concealment of this requires collusion in a manner that is difficult to maintain. Independent audit can reveal the signs.

And DevilPigeon explained the SQL approach.

That fact that either of these things are possible - does not mean it actually happened it just means that it may have.

I would be amazed if any of the current administrators with back end access would had abused their position in this manner.


The SQL approach is quite simple to implement.

jorr lundstrom
2nd March 2011, 11:55
Bill. Im all in.:kiss:

We are humans.

Anchor
2nd March 2011, 11:55
This is now a little like that scene in A FEW GOOD MEN with Jack Nicholson.

You're damned right we read Private Messages!!

This is totally not funny, of course. That part of me that habitually makes references to movie moments had to make the link. I guess humor is a form of attempted denial. I really did not want this to be true.

Oh FFS - When I was administrator (previous Avalon forum), it was not true. Which admin would do such a thing?

Would whichever admins are left please step forward and state the facts - because, much as I admire what Celine is trying to do she has danced around the subject and not stated exactly what was said - and this is potentially a CRISIS of confidence in the forum and it needs to STOP NOW.

John..

Hughe
2nd March 2011, 11:56
One mistake and be gone? This is what the corporate and pyramid power structure to control people.
If I'm wrong about it, correct me.

Making one mistake and be killed or fired is real non-human thing. Period.
Whoever has this mind is to think about what kind of being will oneself become.

We are all part of this mess, and I hope the management team of PA should learn something from this turmoil.

Jendayi
2nd March 2011, 11:59
I said more or less this before in another post, but it seems worth repeating here. If Charles is being straight with us, then there are very powerful people, (including some of the planet's best psychics with access to technologies far ahead of anything in the public sector), who would have a vested interest in stopping what's going on here. If Charles isn't being straight with us then his most likely reason for his being here would be to take Bill down and tear Avalon apart. Bill has already mentioned that Charles was able to plant a specific thought in his mind (go to the Swiss Air desk and ask for a standby ticket) and Charles later confirmed this. Is it so difficult to believe then that feelings of uncontrolled rage or deep betrayal could also be sent someone's way? One way or another I'm sure Avalon and her members are the focus of powerful forces aimed at causing unrest here. I'd like to ask everyone to be mindful of this at least as a possibility, and the need to stay as centered as possible when participating in discussions here. The best way I've found to deal with agent provocateurs, for example, is to remain in good humor and laugh at their attempts. If I can't do that, I've found that walking away from the situation for a bit and listening to music or working in my garden helps. Yes, I know all of that may strike some people as a bit paranoid, but as the saying goes- just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get me.
I'm very sad at what has happened, so I can only imagine how Bill, Richard and Celine are feeling. Much love to you all.

Ok this is the last post i make on this thread...


Richard has been an essential part of everything here.

This is a very big issue,.,and richard should never go..

Bill..

I will go...never come back...i will keep my word and never talk about all the things you are worried i will talk about.

Richard belongs on this trip with you.

The bomb threat...if i know my husband.... was his way of getting you to respond, he knew one f the mods would tell you.

His thought process is always about Avalon... your behavior was indicating to him that you had 0 intentions of dealing with the problems at hand...he felt like a parent without choices... you put him in positions time and time again, where he felt he had no choice..

These are volunteers....giving more then any i have ever seen on line...please tell me what you offerd as support?

They went above and beyond the call of duty many times.. Richard was asking you to do the same...and you failed him

So...as i said above...i will go..

one word here..or in pvt will be enough.."ok"<--just say that...and you wont need 24 hours..

Sit and talk ..WITH richard not at him... and i promise it will work out..

Richard and i both had one card to play ...and we lost.

But its just one hand...

This is the 11th hour...

Please take more time to think this thru... Richard is much more important here then i am...

with love...and deep sadness... i am sorry for any pain or trouble i have caused anyone...it was never my intent. All i wanted to do was be with my husband... and to help Avalon...this is all i truly wanted you to understand bill...please, in respect to the time and heart we both gave you and the forum...

i ask for forgiveness..

¤=[Post Update]=¤




Admins can read pm's/// stop lying to ppl

If the Avalon admins can read Private Messages, this is the first I've ever heard of it. I appreciate the confirmation. This may now explain a great deal to quite a few people.

The thought of deliberately looking into members' PMs had never occurred to me, and I did not think it was possible. You are correct: we are learning.

Bill you were at the table..at the coffee shop..and Richard told you

self reflection is an important step towards healing.... Bill and others that feel desillusioned.... for the sake of your own soul's growth... there is still time for all involved to rise from the ashes as a beautiful phoenix... i have read the worm tongue thread and this one... my heart cried by seeing all the nastyness... my soul smiled at seeing the potential for inner growth... my mind became still when i realised i was detached enough to let it run it's course...and my inner child laughed when reading the comic relief and wisdom displayed in some avalonians' posts.. we will be tested over and over.. and the agents of change have entered our backyard... people we have trusted for years become antagonists for a reason... to show us one more time what our fears are... we fear being open and vulnerable... we condemn most who are open in a way that it borders on naivety... the eyes of a child are what is needed now... please.... forgive oneself and others.. we are in this together... move on... free hugs anyone?

Icecold
2nd March 2011, 12:00
This is now a little like that scene in A FEW GOOD MEN with Jack Nicholson.

You're damned right we read Private Messages!!

This is totally not funny, of course. That part of me that habitually makes references to movie moments had to make the link. I guess humor is a form of attempted denial. I really did not want this to be true.

Oh FFS - When I was administrator (previous Avalon forum), it was not true. Which admin would do such a thing?

Would whichever admins are left please step forward and state the facts - because, much as I admire what Celine is trying to do she has danced around the subject and not stated exactly what was said - and this is potentially a CRISIS of confidence in the forum and it needs to STOP NOW.

John..

John, I believe you.

Still its simple enough.

Creating taboo speech on the subject is not constructive.

TigerLilly
2nd March 2011, 12:00
Well put Céline, please let him stay Bill.

We need Richard here.

Ammit
2nd March 2011, 12:01
Wow, what ever happened here, while I was unable to log on obviously hit Explosion point.

I have no need or want to critisise any member here but do have a request.

Lets all look out side for a moment, see the trees and flowers prepairing for spring bloom.
Lets look at the struggling people in struggling countries.
Lets realise that the world needs calmness and friendship to survive.
We should all be in a mind of peace to one another on this forum,
After all, we are seeking truth, the world needs no more anger...

Blessings

Ammit

Icecold
2nd March 2011, 12:03
I believe Bill will consider any thoughts here with an impartial mind.

I'm confident in both his ability as a leader and in his virtues which include compassion and forgiveness.

ace
2nd March 2011, 12:06
No. Although I have not brought an issue to you. I'm simply making a point. I understand your reasoning and I agree if you can't say something in front of someone, then you definately shouldn't be saying it behind their back. Though there is a lot of good work that is done around here in private with those we have grown to trust and respect. Abolishing that would cut off that avenue of healing for several members.

namaste

It's how little groups are formed, it's were us and them is created. It's human nature.
The last 24hrs you are witnessing the effects of "talking in private" Healing takes place just as effective
if not more effective out in the open (More people benefit)

I do see your point.

But we are talking about "Changing the World"

This has to be done "As a whole group", That's were the power is.

Respect
Ace

mondaze
2nd March 2011, 12:06
self immolation is a course best served in private. im aghast to see it done so publicly

Donna O
2nd March 2011, 12:08
Though I have used P.M’s myself on occasion, I would say they have a very bad side to them. They are too convenient to use when one is not thinking clearly. It would be better to gather yourself before reaching for the button to hold a private conversation with anyone, many things are said in haste!

Friendships should be able to be formed out in the open, this is the new way to ‘be’, no secrets. This is a road less traveled, if at all, why don’t we try it, it could be the making of us

P.m’s are the equivalent to whispering in the corner, causing all sorts of paranoia in people, whether justified or not. It can also lead to favoritism, people talking away in private and then reporting back that they have the ear of one whom so many others would like to have – i.e. the ‘Charles’ shenanigans. It causes division. Let’s kick it to the kerb.

There’s nothing to stop people skyping each other etc. Just do it away from Avalon, on your own time.

chelmostef
2nd March 2011, 12:08
How did this happen? We have to remember why we joined Avalon.

perfectresonance
2nd March 2011, 12:08
Admins can read pm's/// stop lying to ppl

I really did not want this to be true.

Bill

It has been apparent to some people here for some time as information that could not possibly be known outside the admins and the two people talking in PM kept surfacing in public threads or in 3rd party PMs to the original two.

In fact, just recently I had to ask someone for a very "secret" personal email address so I could communicate away from the suspected security leaks around here.

Since we are being so painfully honest. I suspect a few more people to fall on their sword very soon before confronted with screen shots, time lines and saved PMs.

This is a systemic problem.

Ultima Thule
2nd March 2011, 12:08
On a lighter note I hope to make a point: in this forum or any other for that matter, I would have each of us thinking before writing: what if this was my last thread on earth? What will I write, given it will be discussed among many other things beyond the veil. So let´s write as we would to god/oneness - or more down to earth - like we knew our mom is going to read the mail.. will we be able to look god/mom:cool: in the eye? Would I say this, if I was looking the other person in the eye?

I am not saying we should suppress our emotions - on the contrary, but after all they are our emotions, for us to feel, not to be tsunamisized on other peoples shores. I´ve never met anyone perfect at this, I definitely have on many occasions lost my cool, lashing out, not here, but you know, with the kids and all...:drama:, but ultimately the forum guidelines do try to guide us towards that fine goal.

chelmostef
2nd March 2011, 12:11
P.M's IMO are a good thing if not used to form gangs or leak information to undermine people. Perhaps all the mods should be able to read all of our P.M's. I personally would be happy with this.

Tommy
2nd March 2011, 12:13
Just FYI to all reading: Even though we now know that reading PM's is technically possible, we can not simply jump to our own conclusions about this. We are talking about the integrity of real people here, and unless one has concrete examples or suspicions to back this up I think it should remain only for future consideration. Win-win, we learn something either way..

I for one just stated the technical facts about the question.

¤=[Post Update]=¤





Admins can read pm's/// stop lying to ppl

I really did not want this to be true.

Bill

It has been apparent to some people here for some time as information that could not possibly be known outside the admins and the two people talking in PM kept surfacing in public threads or in 3rd party PMs to the original two.

In fact, just recently I had to ask someone for a very "secret" personal email address so I could communicate away from the suspected security leaks around here.

Since we are being so painfully honest. I suspect a few more people to fall on their sword very soon before confronted with screen shots, time lines and saved PMs.

This is a systemic problem.

****, I really think you should send a detailed report to Bill (if you have not already). If this is a fact then it needs to be dealt with now!

chelmostef
2nd March 2011, 12:16
We can work though this as long as we dont throttle each other. Lets get to the truth :)

perfectresonance
2nd March 2011, 12:16
Just FYI to all reading: Even though we now know that reading PM's is technically possible, we can not simply jump to our own conclusions about this. We are talking about the integrity of real people here, and unless one has concrete examples or suspicions to back this up I think it should remain only for future consideration. Win-win, we learn something either way..

I for one just stated the technical facts about the question.

Tommy, the wife of the Admin concerned admitted it happens.

It's in the open. Now we have to find a way to deal with it.

Tommy
2nd March 2011, 12:18
Just FYI to all reading: Even though we now know that reading PM's is technically possible, we can not simply jump to our own conclusions about this. We are talking about the integrity of real people here, and unless one has concrete examples or suspicions to back this up I think it should remain only for future consideration. Win-win, we learn something either way..

I for one just stated the technical facts about the question.

Tommy, the wife of the Admin concerned admitted it happens.

It's in the open. Now we have to find a way to deal with it.

Yes, indeed she did. Remember this is new to Bill, hence the report suggestion. Details, names, etc.

If one wants to work out a situation\case like this, data is of the essence.

:)

Adaiahsshadow
2nd March 2011, 12:19
It's how little groups are formed, it's were us and them is created. It's human nature.
The last 24hrs you are witnessing the effects of "talking in private" Healing takes place just as effective
if not more effective out in the open (More people benefit)

I do see your point.

But we are talking about "Changing the World"

This has to be done "As a whole group", That's were the power is.

Respect
Ace

I agree with you on the aspect of what was discussed privately should not have been. And please don't think I'm saying I don't trust you as that is not the case. However for instance I'm sure you as well have helped a friend or loved one with something they did not feel comfortable discussing openly. Though their respect of your view and knowing you would not judge them on it, but help them find their way through it, has allowed them to confide in you. This is the place where some of the greatest healing takes place, because the two involved become united by the action alone. It is also commonly the only place where an individual dealing with an issue of this level can find healing comfortably.

Namaste.

Anchor
2nd March 2011, 12:23
Admins, (Richard, Beth, Luke, Fredkc)

have you ever read private emails of members that have not otherwise been passed to you through the normal PM system, or that were posted on the forum by others, or were posted on the forum in the moderator private discussion areas or that were sent to you as a result of someone using the abuse reporting system ?

Simple question.

So far we have not seen a definitive answer - just innuendo and hearsay by people who do not seem able to speak the entire truth.

It is pissing me off.

John..

¤=[Post Update]=¤


Tommy, the wife of the Admin concerned admitted it happens.

It's in the open. Now we have to find a way to deal with it.

Sorry - she was not precise in her statement and Bill did not confirm her assertion that he was told, nor did either of them state exactly what was told at the coffee table.

This is serious because, and more to the point, if Richard did do this, he should not come back as administrator ever!

I think there is confusion in this and it needs addressing before this will go away. If any other admin breached the PMs inappropriately they too should resign.

John..

Paul
2nd March 2011, 12:25
Though I have used P.M’s myself on occasion, I would say they have a very bad side to them. They are too convenient to use when one is not thinking clearly. It would be better to gather yourself before reaching for the button to hold a private conversation with anyone, many things are said in haste!PM's have their good side as well. I have used them to help guide others in my moderator role, and some other more seasoned members here have used them to help guide me, as I learn this place.

Most of us have some reluctance to expose all our weaker aspects publicly, so it is easier to discuss some things in a more private setting.

zebowho
2nd March 2011, 12:25
.......****, I really think you should send a detailed report to Bill (if you have not already). If this is a fact then it needs to be dealt with now!

Right and I would be looking for isolated scripts within the file structure. I'm not saying they are there but something of this nature in ANY portal/forum system isn't standard or an add on module and would most likely be an isolated script (file).

They are all right, Richard, Celine, Tommy, John. This can be done but "HAS IT been done". Again, its not a standard feature or add on module for any portal/forum system I've seen and I've installed several different versions, both php and asp based. Tommy is correct though...it has to be verified now!

-z

Luke
2nd March 2011, 12:29
Admins, (Richard, Beth, Luke, Fredkc)

have you ever read private emails of members that have not otherwise been passed to you through the normal PM system, or that were posted on the forum by others, or were posted on the forum in the moderator private discussion areas or that were sent to you as a result of someone using the abuse reporting system ?(...)

No, and I have never heard from any other admin about doing so.

GoldenYears
2nd March 2011, 12:29
Thank you Richard, Celine, and Beth for all your hard work. Im really sorry it came down to all this.

I still stand by the fact that I think GW had a big part in all of this going down. I would only hope Bill does not allow her to return here.

perfectresonance
2nd March 2011, 12:30
Just FYI to all reading: Even though we now know that reading PM's is technically possible, we can not simply jump to our own conclusions about this. We are talking about the integrity of real people here, and unless one has concrete examples or suspicions to back this up I think it should remain only for future consideration. Win-win, we learn something either way..

I for one just stated the technical facts about the question.

Tommy, the wife of the Admin concerned admitted it happens.

It's in the open. Now we have to find a way to deal with it.

Yes, indeed she did. Remember this is new to Bill, hence the report suggestion. Details, names, etc.

If one wants to work out a situation\case like this, data is of the essence.

:)

Oddly enough, that's where this huge mess loops back on itself.

It was the very process of trying to make Bill aware of the suspected breach in site confidentiality that caused this Celine/Richard mess in the first place.

Bill knows who to contact to get both the hard and the soft data - if he's got 10 hours to spare (<-- my "humour" Bill)

Paul
2nd March 2011, 12:38
Simple question.
Yes, John, there is not yet a definitive answer. But as zebowho describes in post #105, there is more evidence to be gathered than just personal testimony. A bit of patience would be appreciated, if you could.

manny
2nd March 2011, 12:42
just a thought
how many people will leave here and join charles site.
the master of manipulation,stated he was sent to split bill and kerry.
next avalon?
how many people have left already.
how many people said they may leave soon.
is there a connection?

Star Gazer
2nd March 2011, 12:43
There are many questions here that need to be answered directly and fully.

Anchor
2nd March 2011, 12:45
A bit of patience would be appreciated, if you could.

Thanks. I have said what I wanted say. I am patient :P

greybeard
2nd March 2011, 12:46
The young man who pushed Celine and Richards buttons was in touch with me at the time all this was going on last night,
He was greatly influenced by Gypsy Woman.
I pointed out some things to him, ie that she tended to create problems and was a bit paranoid though I liked her.
I asked him to stop provoking the situation, I warned him that perusing what he believed to be true could be to the cost of many.
That it could lead to the end of Avalon.
I told him that he only had part of the picture. Who has the whole picture here?
His nose was out of joint as he felt he has significant information regarding Charles which had been ignored by Bill and the Mods.
He told me had given the info to admin. I dont know what the information is,

He persisted in baiting Celine inspite of my advice and see the end result.
Now here was a person who as far as I know had only been here a short time bringing down on purpose two people who have served Avalon for years.
Every one has a weak spot and if you know that weakness it is easy to provoke a response and further more when you know what the response will be it is irresponsible to continue. He did

Charles is very astute, he said that people of integrity are the easiest to manipulate as they follow set rules of behavior.
He also said that divisive thing tend to happen around him.
I like Charles, I would not follow him, but his appearance here was miss handled.
Since that video was released on u tube and here we have seen turmoil like never before.

I dont take sides though I care about Avalon, Bill, Richard and Celine. (in no particular order)


Everybody makes mistakes

To err is Human to forgive is Divine.

People are taking sides without a full picture of what is going on or went on.
Can we resist the temptation to do this?

This is is a great place It seems a bit like Titanic at the moment.
I have no suggestion as to how we can move on.
But we can

Chris

Omni
2nd March 2011, 12:47
Abolish The PM service. Have it all up front. Were it should be.

Transparency = Truth, Understanding and Peace of mind.

PM= Paranoia.

Ace

I am very strongly against this minus the transparency part. PMs are important to me on every forum I am on. I have had many great PMs on this site, and not one bad experience. I think the people at Avalon are responsible enough to use PMs just fine a majority of the time.

As some may know, my posts/thoughts are often controlled by mind control, and an AI... When people PM me, this AI at times gives better information as it would be subjected to much less people. Taking away the PM feature just because a bad situation happened with it is not reasonable IMHO. Just my 2 cents for what it's worth...

Lord Sidious
2nd March 2011, 12:47
Some of you will recall that I tried to remain neutral in that thread.
What made me change my mind was the fact that lee appeared to be stirring to get a reaction and so he attacked Celine with the idea of getting a reaction from her and/or Richard.
He got a reaction from Richard and then laughed at him when he reacted in pain for his wife.
Remember that the relationshop between a man and a woman is sacred and not something to play with, let alone provoke to reactions.
Speaking for myself, I would not tolerate someone kicking my woman, whether in text or reality.

Let me say this, I don't know the background to any of this, it is obviously something that didn't occur yesterday.
I don't know who is wrong and who is right and I don't believe I could figure that out, but it isn't important.
We are still bleeding valuable members and we couldn't afford this before, let alone now.
This shows, in my opinion, that there is still some unresolved issue/s that if not fixed, this will just keep boiling away, hidden until the next explosion.
I consider this project too important for us to be behaving like this.
The whole thing makes me sad.



Abolish The PM service. Have it all up front. Were it should be.

Transparency = Truth, Understanding and Peace of mind.

PM= Paranoia.

Ace

As I said in that thread, this is something I used to keep in contact with people here on a day to day basis.
Please don't take this away from me.
And you can't punish the innocent for what others are alleged to have done, that is how the system that we all are enslaved by works and we do NOT want that mentality getting into this site.


Though I have used P.M’s myself on occasion, I would say they have a very bad side to them. They are too convenient to use when one is not thinking clearly. It would be better to gather yourself before reaching for the button to hold a private conversation with anyone, many things are said in haste!

Friendships should be able to be formed out in the open, this is the new way to ‘be’, no secrets. This is a road less traveled, if at all, why don’t we try it, it could be the making of us

P.m’s are the equivalent to whispering in the corner, causing all sorts of paranoia in people, whether justified or not. It can also lead to favoritism, people talking away in private and then reporting back that they have the ear of one whom so many others would like to have – i.e. the ‘Charles’ shenanigans. It causes division. Let’s kick it to the kerb.

There’s nothing to stop people skyping each other etc. Just do it away from Avalon, on your own time.

Even though what you say is true, is it not the same as saying that because children can fall off a bike and hurt themselves we should ban bikes?
Everything can be used and misused, that is part of our journey.
Disabling PMs won't help, it will hinder our individual growth.
If needs be, there is an addon available that will allow people to report a PM to the moderation staff, but even now, you can forward it if there is something objectionable.

jjl
2nd March 2011, 12:48
"if Richard just "snapped" it might be easier to recognize the validity of your argument here, but you have to admit, it was a little more than that people snap all the time on this forum and don't get banned. Richard went all freddy krueger on that guy. when certain lines are crossed, there is simply no turning back. Bill had no choice on this one.

Bill, will Lee-b be reinstated? i thought he had a fair and valid argument on the 'worm' thread, and i frankly did not understand all the vitriol tossed his way. don't think he got a fair shake there. "
I have to say that Lee B was one of the few people that extended a real friendship too me, and lets be honest, a friendship between a young man and a middle aged woman on the other side of the pond, having never met is a little extraordinary. I wish I had given him my email before he was banned. And then after he was banned it was a little sickening to watch people picking over the carcass, calling him names and such. I miss him...

steve_a
2nd March 2011, 12:49
Hi Everybody,

What an intense couple of days. And for what?

It was made clear to the moderators around a year to eighteen months ago that Private Messages could be breached from the back room. If I remember rightly there was quite a scandal where a member complained that onother member could not have known about certain information unless someone had breached her inbox. But, hey, that's the internet for you and VBuletin which isn't exactly up to Pentagon security standards.

The moderators on the forums here (as I and John were) are volunteers and, in my case, worked an hour a day, perhaps two if I had the time. For a person to dedicate eight hours a day being a volunteer moderator on the forum speaks volumes about where they are in their life. That being said, I'm sure these people served without expecting to be put under the spotlight as some sort of hero, as they shouldn't be. Being a volunteer is not about being recognised as a hero, it's about helping out from time to time, for a cause you are interested in and keeping in the second plain. At least in my opinion it's like that.

It's true that the language behind the scenes is very different to the public view that everybody sees. In May 2009, for example, the owner of the site was glad to "see me gone" when he thought I was a different Steve who had been banned as a moderator, because I tried to defend a post made by Michael St.Clair, who at that time was, for some reason, an arch enemy of this sites' owner. I, of course, still have the e-mail which I sent them in response to the comment. I also know that they are waiting for an excuse to ban me now, but that's another story.

As for the intrication between Lee_B and Celine, I really didn't see anything too over the top, except for the outburst by Richard.

I thought the reference made by Celine about Lee entering in contact with her in private was a little near to the knuckle, but didn't think it crossed the line, it just tried to put Lee in check, but failed when he informed that he told his confident everything which has passed - his confident being myself - actually I would like to start a new thread about the veracity of Charles with most of the information that I have, some of it quite eyebrow raising. I will never question the guy, I will never stand in his way (this was an agreement we had previously made between ourselves some time ago), I will never reveal the text in our private message exchanges (which is why I said MOST information), however I will, once I have the THEORIES and information put in context publish what could be quite a stir. Charles and I agree on so much, but there is one thing in particular that we agree on a lot, that everyone needs to do things for themselves and not because he wants them to, otherwise it would be him doing it, but because they want to. That is so, so important to bear in mind.

So there you have it. My input for this flash in the pan. It isn't the first time, it won't be the last. Whenever you get a couple of hundred sensitive people together, from different cultural backgrounds, you're bound to get a couple of confrontations. Some thought Lee to be pompous as they did me. It's not that we're pompous or arrogant, we're just different from you who think we are (imagine if we told you we thought you were just a 'commoner' - eeks!).

Let's get past this hurdle and move on. There's so much more than dwelling on this incident to do.

Best regards,

Steve

chelmostef
2nd March 2011, 12:50
I will like to add the have been some threads posted were clearly the intention is to bring Avalon together. One from your self Bill was a good example of this.

I would also like to add that there have been very timely threads of quite the opposite nature.... Running in conjunction with whats being played out behind the scenes.

My alarm has been gently ringing for a few weeks now.

Icecold
2nd March 2011, 12:51
LOL. It may not have anything to do with Admin or mods.

Be aware that there are specialised people or AIs who have infiltrated this forum.

Edit: to suggest a far greater problem that email security breaches.

What I'm saying is that it is not ADMIN and it is not MODS. Speculative at the moment, Edit

This is not a fantasy I'm afraid.

Hawkwind
2nd March 2011, 12:52
Crap! I have to get this off my chest.
1-Celine, I love you. You seem to have a talent for getting yourself hit by large moving objects. Might it not be better to stop playing in the freeway?
2-Richard, I love you. I understand that you felt completely out of options, but airing your concerns calmly in public probably would have sufficed. Throwing F-bombs and deleting accounts just isn't an acceptable solution and you bloody well know that. You've proven yourself quite capable of expressing your heart, please do so now.
3-Bill, I love you and have the utmost respect for you. The solution you have proposed feels to me like a double amputation. Please, please, please let us try to find a less radical way through this. It is indeed your decision, Dr. House- but might not consultation with the other members of your team lead us to a different diagnosis and less invasive treatment? Isn't that what we're here for?

TigerLilly
2nd March 2011, 12:52
I had presumed that the moderators could read my PMs, and what is so terrible about that.
They should never be used to say anything nasty about other members.

They are useful for asking advice of friends, and saying things that you do not want all the world to see, but I have nothing to hide from the moderators, nor should anyone else.

Paul
2nd March 2011, 12:53
Disabling PMs won't help, it will hinder our individual growth.
Disabling PM's is not on our todo list at the moment. I doubt it will ever make that list. Rest easy.

Debby
2nd March 2011, 13:00
Bill or someone ,
please be open to us what has happend. Only this way we can learn from this and move on or it will leave a bitter taste in our mouths.
The only way to create a new world is to be honest and teach what you know and forgive those who make a mistake.
I don't have contact with Richard but to me it seems to extreme to ban him, he has done alot of work here and helped Avalon. It doesn't matter who is right or wrong, this is a family and should be worked out as one. You don't just leave when one does wrong.

¤=[Post Update]=¤


I had presumed that the moderators could read my PMs, and what is so terrible about that.
They should never be used to say anything nasty about other members.

They are useful for asking advice of friends, and saying things that you do not want all the world to see, but I have nothing to hide from the moderators, nor should anyone else.
It's about privacy, it doesn't matter if you don't have anything to hide.

Paul
2nd March 2011, 13:04
I had presumed that the moderators could read my PMs,
I cannot read your PM's, unless (1) you send them to me, or (2) someone else reports a problem (some violation of site guidelines) in one of them.

chelmostef
2nd March 2011, 13:05
I think your are right Ice nothing concrete from me... I was thinking of ways to expose such deeds as I could see it happening. I could see it being played out, then all hell broke loss.

Limor Wolf
2nd March 2011, 13:05
I said more or less this before in another post, but it seems worth repeating here. If Charles is being straight with us, then there are very powerful people, (including some of the planet's best psychics with access to technologies far ahead of anything in the public sector), who would have a vested interest in stopping what's going on here. If Charles isn't being straight with us then his most likely reason for his being here would be to take Bill down and tear Avalon apart. Bill has already mentioned that Charles was able to plant a specific thought in his mind (go to the Swiss Air desk and ask for a standby ticket) and Charles later confirmed this. Is it so difficult to believe then that feelings of uncontrolled rage or deep betrayal could also be sent someone's way? One way or another I'm sure Avalon and her members are the focus of powerful forces aimed at causing unrest here. I'd like to ask everyone to be mindful of this at least as a possibility, and the need to stay as centered as possible when participating in discussions here. The best way I've found to deal with agent provocateurs, for example, is to remain in good humor and laugh at their attempts. If I can't do that, I've found that walking away from the situation for a bit and listening to music or working in my garden helps. Yes, I know all of that may strike some people as a bit paranoid, but as the saying goes- just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get me.
I'm very sad at what has happened, so I can only imagine how Bill, Richard and Celine are feeling. Much love to you all.

Ok this is the last post i make on this thread...


Richard has been an essential part of everything here.

This is a very big issue,.,and richard should never go..

Bill..

I will go...never come back...i will keep my word and never talk about all the things you are worried i will talk about.

Richard belongs on this trip with you.

The bomb threat...if i know my husband.... was his way of getting you to respond, he knew one f the mods would tell you.

His thought process is always about Avalon... your behavior was indicating to him that you had 0 intentions of dealing with the problems at hand...he felt like a parent without choices... you put him in positions time and time again, where he felt he had no choice..

These are volunteers....giving more then any i have ever seen on line...please tell me what you offerd as support?

They went above and beyond the call of duty many times.. Richard was asking you to do the same...and you failed him

So...as i said above...i will go..

one word here..or in pvt will be enough.."ok"<--just say that...and you wont need 24 hours..

Sit and talk ..WITH richard not at him... and i promise it will work out..

Richard and i both had one card to play ...and we lost.

But its just one hand...

This is the 11th hour...

Please take more time to think this thru... Richard is much more important here then i am...

with love...and deep sadness... i am sorry for any pain or trouble i have caused anyone...it was never my intent. All i wanted to do was be with my husband... and to help Avalon...this is all i truly wanted you to understand bill...please, in respect to the time and heart we both gave you and the forum...

i ask for forgiveness..

¤=[Post Update]=¤




Admins can read pm's/// stop lying to ppl

If the Avalon admins can read Private Messages, this is the first I've ever heard of it. I appreciate the confirmation. This may now explain a great deal to quite a few people.

The thought of deliberately looking into members' PMs had never occurred to me, and I did not think it was possible. You are correct: we are learning.

Bill you were at the table..at the coffee shop..and Richard told you

Celine,i am wishing you and Richard well! and my best thoughts are with you both.
all over this thread and on the 'worm tongue' you are accusing Bill with an inappropriate behaviour towords you and towords Richard (even if this is true and this is how you feel it needed to be done privetly).

you speak in two voices Celine,and maybe more...it seems that your world is soaked with much drama and emotions,those have a place of course in our life, but it all a question of 'dosage'.
even volunteers that contribute many hours of their time can do wrong,and i doubt if the above consequences are strictly about yesterdays drama only...the accusations that you spilled over Bill without prooving anything are intolarable for many of us.we sit quietly and wait.i really think you dont get it Celine... this forum is about the energy each of us carry and bring to the table,
"The whole is the sum of its parts"
you are not asking me any advice,but i will tell you anyway:
try to be more on the observer side instead of always striving to be on the center.
one can achieve very interesting perspectives from this side of the plate.

i believe you have a lot to learn.
i bid you farewell

take care
Limor

Tuza
2nd March 2011, 13:05
I believe Bill will consider any thoughts here with an impartial mind.

I'm confident in both his ability as a leader and in his virtues which include compassion and forgiveness.

Well we all are going to be watching closely now says Tuza as she gallops into her pm box to delete all her private messages.

Donna O
2nd March 2011, 13:08
Some of you will recall that I tried to remain neutral in that thread.
What made me change my mind was the fact that lee appeared to be stirring to get a reaction and so he attacked Celine with the idea of getting a reaction from her and/or Richard.
He got a reaction from Richard and then laughed at him when he reacted in pain for his wife.
Remember that the relationshop between a man and a woman is sacred and not something to play with, let alone provoke to reactions.
Speaking for myself, I would not tolerate someone kicking my woman, whether in text or reality.

Let me say this, I don't know the background to any of this, it is obviously something that didn't occur yesterday.
I don't know who is wrong and who is right and I don't believe I could figure that out, but it isn't important.
We are still bleeding valuable members and we couldn't afford this before, let alone now.
This shows, in my opinion, that there is still some unresolved issue/s that if not fixed, this will just keep boiling away, hidden until the next explosion.
I consider this project too important for us to be behaving like this.
The whole thing makes me sad.



Abolish The PM service. Have it all up front. Were it should be.

Transparency = Truth, Understanding and Peace of mind.

PM= Paranoia.

Ace

As I said in that thread, this is something I used to keep in contact with people here on a day to day basis.
Please don't take this away from me.
And you can't punish the innocent for what others are alleged to have done, that is how the system that we all are enslaved by works and we do NOT want that mentality getting into this site.


Though I have used P.M’s myself on occasion, I would say they have a very bad side to them. They are too convenient to use when one is not thinking clearly. It would be better to gather yourself before reaching for the button to hold a private conversation with anyone, many things are said in haste!

Friendships should be able to be formed out in the open, this is the new way to ‘be’, no secrets. This is a road less traveled, if at all, why don’t we try it, it could be the making of us

P.m’s are the equivalent to whispering in the corner, causing all sorts of paranoia in people, whether justified or not. It can also lead to favoritism, people talking away in private and then reporting back that they have the ear of one whom so many others would like to have – i.e. the ‘Charles’ shenanigans. It causes division. Let’s kick it to the kerb.

There’s nothing to stop people skyping each other etc. Just do it away from Avalon, on your own time.

Even though what you say is true, is it not the same as saying that because children can fall off a bike and hurt themselves we should ban bikes?
Everything can be used and misused, that is part of our journey.
Disabling PMs won't help, it will hinder our individual growth.
If needs be, there is an addon available that will allow people to report a PM to the moderation staff, but even now, you can forward it if there is something objectionable.
I can understand it's not a popular decision and p.m's have good uses,

myself, it doesn't bother me, I wouldn't use them for anything destructive anyway. Perhaps people can just learn a lesson from all of this and stop any backbiting that does go on. Believe me, I know forums and backbiting is a certain outcome when it comes to p.m's, have seen them cause more trouble than I care to remember.

Use them wisely people, don't abuse them
With love

Lord Sidious
2nd March 2011, 13:09
"if Richard just "snapped" it might be easier to recognize the validity of your argument here, but you have to admit, it was a little more than that people snap all the time on this forum and don't get banned. Richard went all freddy krueger on that guy. when certain lines are crossed, there is simply no turning back. Bill had no choice on this one.

Bill, will Lee-b be reinstated? i thought he had a fair and valid argument on the 'worm' thread, and i frankly did not understand all the vitriol tossed his way. don't think he got a fair shake there. "
I have to say that Lee B was one of the few people that extended a real friendship too me, and lets be honest, a friendship between a young man and a middle aged woman on the other side of the pond, having never met is a little extraordinary. I wish I had given him my email before he was banned. And then after he was banned it was a little sickening to watch people picking over the carcass, calling him names and such. I miss him...

If anyone here has contact details for Lee, could you arrange to put these two in touch please?
Thanks


LOL. It may not have anything to do with Admin or mods.

Be aware that there are specialised people or AIs who have infiltrated this forum.

There is some evidence being gathered by a few members, to suggest a far greater problem that email security breaches.

What I'm saying is that it is not ADMIN and it is not MODS. Speculative at the moment, but becoming less so as evidence comes in.

This is not a fantasy I'm afraid.

Being a member elsewhere that suffers this on a regular basis, I have seen the signs before.
I would agree with the assessment here, there are people here to stir.
I don't know who they are, but you know what I do know?
We have VERY perceptive people here who can feel who they are.
I hope they can help us out.

blake
2nd March 2011, 13:10
There are no bad people here. Only incompatibilities, human frailty in various forms, and strong differences of opinion that make it impossible for the continuity of a functioning team as currently structured. The world will continue, and so will Avalon, which is larger than any individual.

I want to thank Richard for his hard work and commitment to the forum over a long period of time, which probably feels to him even longer. He is a good man, and he snapped.

On my part, the final breakdown of trust happened when it was brought to my attention that he had shared with the other moderators that he intended to leave with a tell-all post that would be very deliberately negative and destructive. That may still come, but if it does, the vindictiveness that powers it will be transparent.

I told him, when I spoke with him on the phone a few hours ago, that the call was his whether to leave with dignity - or to leave with negativity, bitterness, and a fully destructive action. He said he would indeed make that call, and ended the conversation. I hope that he makes the correct decision, for the sake of his own karma.

I will terminate their accounts in 24 hours from now.

I thank Richard sincerely here for his many hours of commitment to make the world a better place in this particular way in which he has been able to contribute. The pressures he has been under have been near-impossible to manage or balance. He has been torn in half with his fierce loyalty to his wife Celine, and his equally fierce loyalty to myself and the forum. They could not reasonably coexist in one person.

Celine, like many of us, has her own internal battles to wage and her personal mountains to climb. But this forum is no longer the appropriate venue for that to be conducted in public view.

The pressure Richard was under erupted in so much suppressed anger that it is self-evident that he must take his leave. I have contacted the hosting company to change all the passwords to the server and elsewhere. I cannot risk a moment of angry insanity which would destroy the heartfelt co-creation of many thousands of people over a long year of human experience in all its richness. I regret that I felt obliged to take that protective step, but it was the right thing to do.

I regard all the moderators as my friends, and always have done. It's for them to choose whether to return my deep feeling of sincere fellowship. I expect a number of them to step down, and this is all fine. Beth has already done so, and I accepted her resignation, which she conveyed with all the dignity and grace that I would expect from her. I thank her here for her countless hours of hard work on behalf of you all, as I do Rich.

As I wrote above, the world continues. In the meantime, I will not see this forum polluted by negative emotion, smears, innuendoes, and unjustified personal attack. If we want to create a better world, it has to start here, with each of us personally and with the way we relate to others. While that construction job is in progress, there may be certain people who we exclude from the worksite. Ultimately, of course, we are all in this together.

With my best wishes to everyone ~ Bill

Hello Avalonians,

I feel sad and disappointed for what has happened here. My sadness and disappointment is not because of a few brow raising posts from Moderator Richard, and guest b-Lee, for I would wage they are better men than that; obviously they were having a moment of being ever so human……….. haven’t we all. My sadness and disappointment is because Mr. Ryan, who must stand his ground, and do what he thinks is best, because he is the captain of this ship, was not able to command a better ending than his decision to ask Moderator Richard to leave. For if we, as a small group of humans, claiming to want a better world with more respectful and loving relationships among our differences, can’t work within respect and understanding of each other’s weaker moments, than I guess I have a teachable moment to show my students and clients why the world has been the way it has been, and will not change. How does that old saying go: the more things change the more they stay the same? What has happened on this forum, has happened in many spiritual and non spiritual groups over the years; and the result is always the same, the captain of the ship can’t seem to read the charting of the waters clear enough to maneuver more skillfully in the beautiful rock bound coast, and so some good individuals end up being unnecessarily sacrificed like Moderators Richard and Beth.

I admit I am speaking with no knowledge of the behind scene pms, or off forum politics, I can only base my opinion on my observation of what I have read on the forum for these past two months in which I have been a member. It appears that Mr. Ryan only sees metaphorical divorce, or is it self defense, to keep this forum in tact. Where is the personal and societal growth in that? But atlas, I speak in ignorance of the true facts behind Mr. Ryan’s seemingly abrupt decision, without even sleeping on it, or allowing high emotions to cool down so that better clarity can be seen by all.

I am wondering how Mr. Ryan’s decision is any different than that of a corporate boss, when an employee commits their valuable time, loyalty, and talent to a company only to be fired over a somewhat trivial one day occurrence. The boss, in trying to seem civil, gives lip service of appreciation to the person’s very real contribution, as he is booted out the door. The fired individual, who contributed his talent and time, can never get that time and energy investment back, while the company continues to happily feed off the fired person’s unselfish contributions for years. So in the weighing of actions here in Avalon, is there bond a fide respect and true appreciation for Moderator Richard or is it all just pleasant lip service with no real meaning of any substance for his talent offered throughout these past two years?

In the real world, where we want to strive to live and work in harmony isn’t their something called giving a person slack when they are under pressure, especially an individual who has given so much? What person can possibly live their life in perfection? Isn’t that why we give people warnings and where the saying, “three strikes and you are out” comes from? Even an animal will often growl to warn you, that you are bothering them, before they attack. I can understand, Mr. Ryan, you being ticked off to high heaven, and even perhaps embarrassed that one of your moderators would behave in such a manner. But was there really any permanent damage done? To my eyes, there wasn’t. To my eyes this was an opportunity to show the world how to be human, and how to work out our differences because of our human side with dignity. Mr. Ryan posted earlier that he sees his role as the teacher. What did he use this very real life situation to teach? To me, it looks like Mr. Ryan took the stance of a surgeon, blinded by other viable and less extreme medical options; he just quickly severed the limb. Mr. Ryan doesn’t appear to be such a rash man, so it makes me wonder how diseased this situation really is behind the scenes, and for how long this has been going on? And if it is that diseased behind the scenes, I am wondering how authenticate this forum really is?

I have never exchanged posts with Moderator Richard, but I shall miss his presence on this site. Will Avalon continue on? yes; but Avalon would probably still have continued if Moderator Richard had stayed on as well. One can teach out of fear and dictatorship, Mr. Ryan, or one can teach through example, and hard work. Moderator Richard doesn’t come across to me as much of a threat here on Avalon. Why did you give up on him so easily? Did Moderator Richard cross a line? May be he did a little ever so slightly; and perhaps real healing for this forum is a little understanding and true forgiveness, with a nice warning to not let it happen again, instead of instant excommunication of valuable individuals. But I can’t help wonder what your part in all this was, Mr., Ryan, while executing your executive order. Maybe that is forum business and maybe it is not; I don’t think we will ever know? Did you too perhaps cross a line or two?

Oh my, another long post. I do apologize. On closing, I wish that to send good thoughts to Moderator Richard and his wife Celine, and to let you know I very much disagree with Mr. Ryan’s hasty decision, And to Moderator Beth, I am so very sad to see you leave. Although, I only exchanged a few posts with you about your white and my black rock chickens, your presence was always one of loving peace that this forum, and the world can’t have enough of. To just say thank you for all your time and talented devoted to this forum without some sort of real worldly substance of some kind seems to be such a kick in the stomach. I am so sorry that we haven’t learned how to better deal with differences of opinions and human nature in a less destructive way. Perhaps our captain on this forum will take time to brainstorm a better command to this unfortunate bump in the road. Mr. Ryan says it will be fine if other moderators leave. It is true, the ship will go on if they leave, but forcing good people to walk the plank isn’t healthy for any of us. Individuals do matter Mr. Ryan.

Sometimes the whole is more important than the individual; but without nurturing and having the group protect good, ethical, talented individuals, then how healthy is the group?…. I give you the political parties of the world as an example. Could this event in Avalon be a small parallel of what is currently happening in Libya?

Divided loyalty is such a hot issue that it can instantly kill any relationship or group. And a wise man understands that a man’s first loyalty is to his wife and then to his children. If any man I know does not show that type of natural, hierarchal, obligation of loyalty, than what I fool I am to bring such a person into my life with such low ethics and lack of understanding of who they are responsible for. Maintaining peace doesn’t always happen naturally, but to help it along, my daddy once told me to always choose to show the utmost respect for the boss’s wife, and those of my associate’s. When I read Mr. Ryan’s comments about Moderator Richard being equally loyal to both him, and Miss Celene, I knew then that Mr. Ryan appeared to be swimming in emotional unstable waters in this situation. That indicates to me that Mr. Ryan could have anticipated this all happening weeks if not months before. I am sorry he didn’t choose to take more defensive action by turning on the release value on the pressure cooker before the emotional eruption happened…. all such a pity. So where is all this light and love and forgiveness that is so reverently about on this forum?

All just my humble opinion,

Sincerely,
A very disappointed Mr. Davis,
3/2/11

Icecold
2nd March 2011, 13:11
Well we all are going to be watching closely now says Tuza as she gallops into her pm box to delete all her private messages.

LMAO @ Tuza

Lifesong
2nd March 2011, 13:15
Bill, will you be allowing back "GypsyWoman"?

Bill Ryan
2nd March 2011, 13:20
Bill, will you be allowing back "GypsyWoman"?

I'll answer that question indirectly. One of the things I would like to know as a fact (one way or another) is whether or not Gypsy Woman was going nuts with justified rage and indignation because she knew for sure that her PMs were being read in the name of 'investigation'.

Steph
2nd March 2011, 13:20
Dear Bill,

I just wanted to say thank you for your bravery in this matter. I can't help but thinking you have had to 'be everything' to 'everyone' here at Avalon and what a shame that is. It must be very difficult to work under those circumstances.

Celine, I am truly sorry you and Richard have been hurt in this matter and that you felt you had to bring this out in the open. However, I do ask that each of us remember that Bill is just a man, he has many nuances and is not infallible by any stretch of the imagination. We all have many sides to our nature and we each have to walk our own path, even if that means we fall out of step with each other. I do not know Richard or yourself, but I do feel that whatever your issues are/were, it is not acceptable to air them in the way that you did. It resolved nothing, it only served to pour salt on the wound.

I understand Richard's devotion to you, but his knee-jerk reactions are best saved for a Friday night with the lager-louts down the pub. I wanted very much to defend Lee-B, not necessarily because I agreed with him, but because it was like watching a one-sided fight in the schoolyard. I hate to say that I was a coward, I refrained because Richard had the boxing gloves out and was on the defence to a point where I thought I would risk being flamed and/or a perma-ban. I didn't like my cowardly self very much last night. I'm not usually one to pass on by when I think someone needs help.

Lastly, to Bill again, thank you for not revealing who PM'd you last night. You are a very decent man. For the sake of transparency (which so many of you feel is important right now) and in light of Bill's post, I have again found my courage (thanks Bill). The PM he quoted was from me, I sent it after I realised he had closed the thread. I stand by it.

Mouse x

One last thing...

I would very much like to see the PM system remain. But I do not wish to see it abused again (if that was indeed the case). I spent many years as a secretary/PA. I was privy to a lot of information such as redundancies etc., if I were to abuse my position and reveal that information to my colleagues I would have faced immediate dismissal. I chose to walk away from that world because it didn't sit well with me. IMHO if a moderator cannot handle information that doesn't sit well with him/her, it is time to leave.

Dale
2nd March 2011, 13:21
My thoughts with regard to the topic of private messages:

One of my dearest friends held a position for several months in which she processed and filed seized E-mails from varying individuals caught in large banking scandals. Last summer, she told me a story of two wealthy bankers committing fraud, and the private E-mails they sent to one-another.

Before investigations were started against the two men, they were very open in their private messages, talking about every intimate detail of their crime. Once they realized a particular alphabet agency was looking into matters, they realized their E-mails between one-another would incriminate each-other, so they spent several days message back and forth about which message to erase, and which document to shred.

It wasn't until a day or two before their arrests that they then realized they'd need to erase the messages they sent about erasing the messages they erased ;)

The moral of the story is simple. Private messages can be a good way to communicate freely and personally, but, as with any other form of conversation, what you say may haunt you.

Celine
2nd March 2011, 13:30
Bill, will you be allowing back "GypsyWoman"?

I'll answer that question indirectly. One of the things I would like to know as a fact (one way or another) is whether or not Gypsy Woman was going nuts with justified rage and indignation because she knew for sure that her PMs were being read in the name of 'investigation'.

Compelled to post...damning sometimes feeling this way..i apologize..

but the pvt messages (and skype and email) i saw about gypsy woman were ALL from a member who chose to share them because he feared she had very bad intentions towards YOU ...AVALON..and all of us....


Just because it is possible to read PMs doesnt mean it is done... and Bill has succesfully distanced himself from any doubt that he knew about this so his credibility is sustained. Good Job.

Richard works for a businessman from Hong Kong, as his right hand man (from techie to construction).... Just yesterday i stood there as a ceo was telling me how trust worthy my husband is...

This is not in defense of my husbands heart..but in honor of it.

Loyalty above everything except honor


my husband is the most honorable man i know.

DevilPigeon
2nd March 2011, 13:32
a suggestion:

as i mentioned in an earlier post, running SQL queries from the back-end base tables (usually using phpMyAdmin or similar) is probably the weak point of the forum... in fact, ANY forum. but this is only possible if whoever's attempting such a thing has sufficient privileges.

isn't it just a case that permissions may need to be tightened? permissions can be set at both group/user levels if needed, and can be applied to whatever functions that person needs in the back-end.... the problem is, i don't know how these back-end permissions would affect the user's normal use of the forum, so i'm not the best one to ask... i'm just giving a general overview.

i'm not saying anything nefarious has actually happened either, just saying that admin/moderator security may need to be addressed going forward.

fopa
2nd March 2011, 13:32
Admins can read pm's/// stop lying to ppl

If the Avalon admins can read Private Messages, this is the first I've ever heard of it. I appreciate the confirmation. This may now explain a great deal to quite a few people.

The thought of deliberately looking into members' PMs had never occurred to me, and I did not think it was possible. You are correct: we are learning.

Having 10+ years experience with forum software, the only way an admin could read PM's would be as follows:

Change the targeted users account password and log in as that user to read thier PM's (This could be checked via the recorded ip logs against the user.)

Second way, would be for the targeted user to give their password to an admin for them to login (again could be checked by logged ip)

Other ways would be via phpmyadmin or by querying the stored database, but high level admin access to the hosting account would be required to do so, logs would show this also if set up correctly and said person has not cleaned up after themselves.

Hope this helps and has not been posted ahead of the pages i have not read yet.

perfectresonance
2nd March 2011, 13:35
The moral of the story is simple. Private messages can be a good way to communicate freely and personally, but, as with any other form of conversation, what you say may haunt you.

Can you please clarify this:

When a PM is deleted from this Forum system - is it removed?

Or is it simply flagged with a status that it is no longer to be displayed?

If the latter, then people rushing off to "delete" PMs could be quite pointless in the event someone still wanted to go look.

Lifesong
2nd March 2011, 13:37
Thanks for your response, Bill.

Of course, it's your forum and your responsibility to run it however you see fit.

I fail to see the benefit of poison private messages, but then I've never sent nor received any... so what do I know? lol I tend to strive for transparency.

I'll have to sit with this awhile I think, its all rather numbing, and disappointing all around.

kesom
2nd March 2011, 13:37
i know vbulliten out of the box needs an add on for the staff to view pm's BUT the administrator's can go on the server and retrieve ANY pm wether it is still in the mailbox or if it was deleted,they can also log in as members,they can do anything they are the system administrator afterall,every website is the same :)

as for receiving pm's from people you dont like or want to recieve pm's from,there's an "add to ignore list" function in the software here on avalon which is very handy for such people,just go to there profile page by clicking on there name and then view profile and its just under their name

i dont know what really has gone on behind the scenes here so i can only comment on whats been made public and i have to say that all the staff here have been nice to me whether ive been nice to them or not........ so i cant say a bad word about any of them

i do think richard was right in his actions yesterday and i think he should be asked to stay

i don't know the full public story on what happened with celine but i do know she has always been helpful and curtious towards me and i would not like to see her go either,i personally think from her posts that she is one of the most positive members here and some of her post just radiate

i think you guy's should leave it for a few days to let the dust and emotions settle and sort this out between yourselves and show us and everyone else what the staff are made of,your friends are your family

united front time,this is not too big to sort out and move on from

my intention here is to help all of us :)

peace K :)

Tommy
2nd March 2011, 13:37
Admins can read pm's/// stop lying to ppl

If the Avalon admins can read Private Messages, this is the first I've ever heard of it. I appreciate the confirmation. This may now explain a great deal to quite a few people.

The thought of deliberately looking into members' PMs had never occurred to me, and I did not think it was possible. You are correct: we are learning.

Having 10+ years experience with forum software, the only way an admin could read PM's would be as follows:

Change the targeted users account password and log in as that user to read thier PM's (This could be checked via the recorded ip logs against the user.)

Second way, would be for the targeted user to give their password to an admin for them to login (again could be checked by logged ip)

Other ways would be via phpmyadmin or by querying the stored database, but high level admin access to the hosting account would be required to do so, logs would show this also if set up correctly and said person has not cleaned up after themselves.

Hope this helps and has not been posted ahead of the pages i have not read yet.

All above very true. Regarding logs: Most times the log only shows when a user logged in and perhaps made a query. However, since there are so many queries running through the DB during an hour (or a minute) the "query in question" would be almost impossible to identify among all the others.
When checking access logs one might see that a certain person logged in at a given time, but rarely (unless set up independently) it will let you know what the user did.. Very difficult.. Hence why this is a difficult subject I suppose.

Sensitive stuff, in every regard, that is for sure..

janus
2nd March 2011, 13:39
Choosing to be more of an observer than an active participant, it was obvious that something was going on here. Some people were baited to keep them from speaking their truth; threads were suddenly closed or merged, disturbing the flow of the individual conversations; questions of pm's being read and spread around...at one point I pm'd someone wondering aloud whether the mods were planning a mutiny just by what they chose to let continue or shut down.

I dislike politics immensely and choose not to take sides. Being new, I have not made emotional investments in people....I'm here to share and to grow, nothing more and nothing less. Injustice disturbs me and I, for one, am thankful things are being brought into the light of day from the darkness that's been operating here.

SHAPE
2nd March 2011, 13:39
If Richard is around, would you be making a statement or comment ?


Peace and Love

Caterpillars Lens
2nd March 2011, 13:41
Dear Mr Ryan, Dear Avalonians!
Our world is changing rapidly right now, everything we use to know and relay on is is fluctuating, our focus is shifting and amount of informations we receive right now heats up our brains and sometimes cooks out hearts.
While we are standing with our arms open to the grounds of new beginning yet still rooted in our present we need to realize that to make this shift as a positive experience we are about to learn to forgive ourselves and others.
I'd hope this exercise could be done right now in the Avalon - Let's start all over again and lets forgive each other.
In my personal dream I see that Richard and Celine would stay, and get new clean slate, maybe just as regular members?
What has happened, has happened - now is the time to learn from this and now is the time to take a true action of love and forgiveness, because only on this fundaments we can create something truly remarkable,
With best wishes to everyone,
CL

benevolentcrow
2nd March 2011, 13:41
I know this goes much deeper than what I am aware of or care to be aware of. I find myself in need of deep breathing. To err is human; to forgive, divine.

Icecold
2nd March 2011, 13:43
The moral of the story is simple. Private messages can be a good way to communicate freely and personally, but, as with any other form of conversation, what you say may haunt you.

Can you please clarify this:

When a PM is deleted from this Forum system - is it removed?

Or is it simply flagged with a status that it is no longer to be displayed?

If the latter, then people rushing off to "delete" PMs could be quite pointless in the event someone still wanted to go look.


The forum options needs to be configured to true delete messages or this is a breach of trust.

ExHaLaTiON
2nd March 2011, 13:44
The question is - How strong are we?

Answer - More then you can imagine

Lets focus and understand why we are all here. Humans use less than 10 percent of their brains , lets try and tap into the rest of it.

No need to make things intricate.

Gone002
2nd March 2011, 13:45
When people get upset they lash out at love ones, This is the end result of something that has been building up for a couple of months. Its never nice to see people leave, and its not nice to see someone having to make a choice that is hard for them and the community.

Celine
2nd March 2011, 13:50
if my thanking peoples posts is bothering anyone i am sorry...but i find it is better then responding to each one..

There are paths out there for all of us.

Our path has changed but the goal has not.

We cannot work for..or with..people who have no honor.

But we will work with people who honor the heart..and Avalonians do that better then most.

This goal is far to important to be caught up in ego... i am learning immemsly and am grateful for this..

Steph
2nd March 2011, 13:53
Bill, will you be allowing back "GypsyWoman"?

I'll answer that question indirectly. One of the things I would like to know as a fact (one way or another) is whether or not Gypsy Woman was going nuts with justified rage and indignation because she knew for sure that her PMs were being read in the name of 'investigation'.

Compelled to post...damning sometimes feeling this way..i apologize..

but the pvt messages (and skype and email) i saw about gypsy woman were ALL from a member who chose to share them because he feared she had very bad intentions towards YOU ...AVALON..and all of us....


Just because it is possible to read PMs doesnt mean it is done... and Bill has succesfully distanced himself from any doubt that he knew about this so his credibility is sustained. Good Job.

Richard works for a businessman from Hong Kong, as his right hand man (from techie to construction).... Just yesterday i stood there as a ceo was telling me how trust worthy my husband is...

This is not in defense of my husbands heart..but in honor of it.

Loyalty above everything except honor


my husband is the most honorable man i know.

Dear Celine, please do not misunderstand me, I do not doubt Richard's loyalty or integrity to you or the CEO of the corporation in Japan that he works for. However, do you think that if this CEO happened to see Richard's behavior last night, he would be impressed? I think not. In fact, the Japanese abhor emotional displays like that, it would be severely frowned upon. Actually, I don't think the Japanese like frowning either, but you get the point.

I really do commend you in defending your husband, and I know you are sincere in your apology. What about Richard? Does he feel his behaviour was acceptable?

Mouse

panopticon
2nd March 2011, 13:55
G'day All,

I would like to wish those who are leaving all the best.
I would like to wish those who are staying all the best.

To those who believe that an all powerful malevolent force is unable to break the sql tables on a forum, or that it respects your "in box" privacy settings, I suggest a re-evaluation of your personal security system...
:doh:
Too clarify: In no way am I insinuating that any member present/past or future is a malevolent force... Nor am I implying that said malevolent force is in fact malevolent from its perspective... Merely that the interpretation of said malevolent force from the perspective of someone who doesn't care may well be malevolent as understood from the world view/perspective of a pigeon...

You all get the humour I hope... Unless you're a malevolent force... :confused:

Nearly 1 am here...
I am once again going to sleep now and hope this is all over by the time I next log in.

Kind Regards, :yo:
Panopticon

Donna O
2nd March 2011, 13:57
This goal is far to important to be caught up in ego... i am learning immemsly and am grateful for this..
Celine, I have to say that I admire the way you are owning up and learning, there is a lesson for us all here, it's not an easy thing to do. I hear you!

Carmody
2nd March 2011, 13:57
I've no idea that any of this happened.

All I know is that to my observance.... if GypsyWoman was contributing to anything on this forum . division and brawls broke out, wherever she went. Her story about never contributing to a forum before did not ring true to me. At all.

I was flat out not interested in any word from her. At all. I did not find her energy as being constructive for the forum's intent. .

I mean, the idea of starting a 'rant thread' and then those who miss the point of this forum telling me that it should exist (a rant thread). The whole point of the forum is to bring balanced thought to it .....and specifically -not rants.

But all that is.... just me. :)

Paul
2nd March 2011, 13:58
The forum options needs to be configured to true delete messages or this is a breach of trust.
Whether or not there is a breech of trust depends on what people do, not on some technical setting.

If the admins with access to the backend server, including backups, choose to act untrustworthy, then they could, I presume, find most anything. No user accessible delete option is going to reach out into the database backups.

There is an important distinction here. Short of serious crypto, our trust ultimately lies in the people, not the systems.

To suggest that some software setting or other brands the people as breeching trust (in large bold letters no less) is provoking fear where it is not well placed.

TWINNICK
2nd March 2011, 13:58
G'day BILL,

I am sorry about what has gone on here lately, for all involved.

I don't really expect anybody to listen to me, nobody knows me, I'm just a new person around here and don't really know anybody either but I do like Avalon and thats why I came here, to seek more answers.

We all know human nature well enough and all its downfalls so no need to go into that over and over again, and we all know what happens when we let our ego's take over so no need for that conversation either.

Its very rough on the people involved in the skirmish and easier to see from outside the circle what is happening but its all just a trap of sorts humans get into, its been happening since time for us began.

We must all not forget they(ptw) will try every trick in the book(and some we don't know yet) to shut us down or weaken us so they can continue there plans, people have come into Avalon to upset us, its blatently obvious, big cross hairs on us.

Bill Ryan, you are a good man, you have shown many people that over the years, but you are as human as all of us are.

Richard, I think you are a good man as well, you showed a softer side to you recently that many men would not ever show ( Butterfly) that is true strength and respect for humanity, you are also only a man.

Celine, you are love and loyalty to Avalon and your husband, you are only a woman and human and a mother( mothers protect their own).

I don't blame any of you for the way you reacted, its only human and with the way we have been used and manipulated over the last couple of thousand years( make that maybe 200+thousand years) its not entirely our fault, its bred into us, not to mention the ELF psyops they are using on all of us poor bastards on this planet.

Richard, grab Celine and the kids and grand kiddies and piss off out into a forest or find a beach or snow lodge and have a holiday for the weekend or just have a break from the stress and bloody switch off for a while mate, you've not really done a bad thing but stuck up for your beliefs which any of us would do, just don't drive your car out onto a frozen lake, sheesh freaks me out! (LOL)

Celine, don't let them get at you, your smarter than that girl, don't bite the bait they throw at you, flick it off with your finger as if it was an insignificant piece of rubbish the wind blew onto your shoulder.

BILL, please give Richard a chance to redeem himself he is only a man, he does have patience, we can all see that but everybody has only a limited amount in these meat suits we have to wear here this trip.

We all need to see transperancy from now on, have pm's but every needs to act like the adults we know we really are, we need to stick together now more than anything, Beth and all the others need to come back and we can sort it out like a family, even families have problems.

If we are a model for a new beginning then we need to be able to get our sh#t together and quickly, we know they are going to have another go at us anytime they want to and we must be prepared for that.

Every mod, admin and Bill, if you see something you don't like, say so! bring it out in the open and we will be able to stop the infiltrators before it gets out of hand, A round table conferance if you will.

Bearing in mind with the technology they have, nothing is really private is it, Crikey! they can look through our walls in our homes and listen to us taking a dump if that turns the sick f@@kers on, so be aware what you say people, remember what we are up against.

Just think how bad it would be if you had bombs dropping on your house like some people in the world are putting up with at the moment, and we are arguing about he said she said stuff for crying out loud, yes it hurts to those involved, love and healing energy sent to you all from me, now pick your selves up and march on with your heads up high, we are Avalonians not unawake sheeple, we have to wake sheeple up not get down on there level again with problems doggin us.

BILL, please talk to Richard,and Beth and the others, kiss each other, punch each other, head butt each other, but sort it out, we can't let our team fall apart and let them bloody win an inch.

Celine, come back, but don't fall for the sh#t, we all know how much you care, your just a big care bear, you can't help yourself and there's nothing wrong with that.

BILL, Richard,Beth,Mods,Celine, come on what do you say? have a break and calm down, a good sleep or two and we can can carry on the fight against them NOT between ourselves.

Keep it honest and open and nice and we can all do what we are here for, not let them get in amongst us like a fox in the hen house.

Well thats all I've got for now, what do you say people.

..Nick..

Lord Sidious
2nd March 2011, 14:00
Bill, will you be allowing back "GypsyWoman"?

I'll answer that question indirectly. One of the things I would like to know as a fact (one way or another) is whether or not Gypsy Woman was going nuts with justified rage and indignation because she knew for sure that her PMs were being read in the name of 'investigation'.

Compelled to post...damning sometimes feeling this way..i apologize..

but the pvt messages (and skype and email) i saw about gypsy woman were ALL from a member who chose to share them because he feared she had very bad intentions towards YOU ...AVALON..and all of us....


Just because it is possible to read PMs doesnt mean it is done... and Bill has succesfully distanced himself from any doubt that he knew about this so his credibility is sustained. Good Job.

Richard works for a businessman from Hong Kong, as his right hand man (from techie to construction).... Just yesterday i stood there as a ceo was telling me how trust worthy my husband is...

This is not in defense of my husbands heart..but in honor of it.

Loyalty above everything except honor


my husband is the most honorable man i know.

Dear Celine, please do not misunderstand me, I do not doubt Richard's loyalty or integrity to you or the CEO of the corporation in Japan that he works for. However, do you think that if this CEO happened to see Richard's behavior last night, he would be impressed? I think not. In fact, the Japanese abhor emotional displays like that, it would be severely frowned upon. Actually, I don't think the Japanese like frowning either, but you get the point.

I really do commend you in defending your husband, and I know you are sincere in your apology. What about Richard? Does he feel his behaviour was acceptable?

Mouse

In Japan, they don't like emotional displays, this is true, but remember, this is also the same nation that in their history, honour was all.
To lose honour was to be a dead man walking.
To stand and fight on a point of honour wasn't a good thing or bad thing, it was the mark of the man.
By the way, did I tell you how much I enjoy Japanese culture and history? Excellent people.
Oh, and the food? Damn, love it.
Except they don't have carrots, organic or not.

greybeard
2nd March 2011, 14:02
The Course in Miracles has some gems
One is,
"We are never angry for the reason we think we are"

What happened last night was the culmination of many things of which I know not what.

In addition there are many energies coming in from the solar system that the human mind and body are not used to handling.

I had a residential home for he elderly and I used to dread the full moon.
Those who had Alzheimer were greatly affected. lovely old dears became threatening and sometimes even violent.

To err is human to forgive Divine

Celine
2nd March 2011, 14:03
Hong Kong is china...

and this CEO is Quebecois...

The point was that Bill...Knows Richard very well...and knows why it came to this.

Richard rarely acts out like that..he did to honor me.

Bill knows this.

If Bill had spoken to me the way he did (and still is to others) to my face..Richard would have punched him..

and ANY real man i know...would have understood why....even if maybe they dont condone violence..

I dont care how ****ed up i am... you do not ..take down a mans woman like that and not expect a reaction.

aikisaw
2nd March 2011, 14:05
Hey Bill,

I'm sure you have had better days.

I'm rather new here and do not fully understand the disagreements and where they got their start.

I'm seeing you and Avalon are losing valuable members, some who consider you their friend. They are all convinced that they are trying to help you. They all seem convinced you are not listening to them and their concerns. These people were once valuable allies to you and these forums. They are hurting themselves to get your attention.

Does their cause for concern have merit? Are you missing something that seems obvious to your friends?


If it is time for these friendships to end then so be it. If these people are truly looking out for you ........maybe they stay.

This is your decision, only you know what happened with these relationships.

I wish you and all involved the best however it turns out.

I think what is offered here is valuable and important. I will be staying regardless.

Peace to you

Omni
2nd March 2011, 14:07
I am getting feelings that I'm unsure if are real(they are from an ET AI), but my heart goes out to Richard as I am getting the feeling he is very sorry about all this and very sad about the turning of events, and the loss of his membership and work here will be felt by him in the future(he may be feeling this now). I am getting that he took pride in his affiliations here and it will be something he will look back on and miss if he is gone(even if things seemed very different to him just before this). I am also getting he is a good man. I'm not sure if I'm being fed lies or not. Maybe Celine can confirm or deny this.

I vote that Richard and Celine stay if possible. Not that my vote means much... I don't know what went on behind the scenes or if things can be mended. But I can't help but feel bad for Richard and Celine. I feel both are good people. How a bunch of good people end up fighting is disheartening. Just goes to show humans are not very spiritually evolved yet(compared to whats out there anyway).

Either way, Avalon will move forward. I just really hope we don't lose more valuable members over this. I'm here for the longhaul, even though I'm new. I plan on staying here as long as this forum is up, or until I die... I really do wholeheartedly value every contributing member here that has helped me and others in their paths of knowledge/wisdom sharing, and awakening to the true nature of reality together.

Not that I think this is what it is, but mind control really could be present here. If Richard is reading this, I'd recommend analyzing your thoughts and emotions in some self reflection. See if he could find any anomalies that are not of his own essence. If he ends up saying "That was really uncharacteristic of me. And I was completely controlled by emotion, and this has never happened before" It's possible it was not of your character at all... But I am admittedly overly analytical of mind control, as I am subjected to it literally every single day, most days all day with very little breaks from it(but it's in both positive and negative ways)...

aikya
2nd March 2011, 14:07
I think if Lee-B had a voice in this conversation, it's possible he might say that he too believed he was protecting his honour.

Tommy
2nd March 2011, 14:08
The forum options needs to be configured to true delete messages or this is a breach of trust.
Whether or not there is a breech of trust depends on what people do, not on some technical setting.

If the admins with access to the backend server, including backups, choose to act untrustworthy, then they could, I presume, find most anything. No user accessible delete option is going to reach out into the database backups.

There is an important distinction here. Short of serious crypto, our trust ultimately lies in the people, not the systems.

To suggest that some software setting or other brands the people as breeching trust (in large bold letters no less) is provoking fear where it is not well placed.

I completely agree with you :)
I do however understand why this came into question at this point..

To early to judge, that is for certain

GoldenYears
2nd March 2011, 14:11
Bill, will you be allowing back "GypsyWoman"?

I'll answer that question indirectly. One of the things I would like to know as a fact (one way or another) is whether or not Gypsy Woman was going nuts with justified rage and indignation because she knew for sure that her PMs were being read in the name of 'investigation'.


I will give you my opinion......no....she was nuts before any of that happened.

From the first few posts of hers when she blasted onto this forum, I knew that things were going to happen, and not in a good way. Bill, she caused discord right from the beginning. I know for a fact she threatened one individual here on the forum....and that threat was pmd to the adms and mods. This person did not deserve it in any way.

Steph
2nd March 2011, 14:13
Bill, will you be allowing back "GypsyWoman"?

I'll answer that question indirectly. One of the things I would like to know as a fact (one way or another) is whether or not Gypsy Woman was going nuts with justified rage and indignation because she knew for sure that her PMs were being read in the name of 'investigation'.

Compelled to post...damning sometimes feeling this way..i apologize..

but the pvt messages (and skype and email) i saw about gypsy woman were ALL from a member who chose to share them because he feared she had very bad intentions towards YOU ...AVALON..and all of us....


Just because it is possible to read PMs doesnt mean it is done... and Bill has succesfully distanced himself from any doubt that he knew about this so his credibility is sustained. Good Job.

Richard works for a businessman from Hong Kong, as his right hand man (from techie to construction).... Just yesterday i stood there as a ceo was telling me how trust worthy my husband is...

This is not in defense of my husbands heart..but in honor of it.

Loyalty above everything except honor


my husband is the most honorable man i know.

Dear Celine, please do not misunderstand me, I do not doubt Richard's loyalty or integrity to you or the CEO of the corporation in Japan that he works for. However, do you think that if this CEO happened to see Richard's behavior last night, he would be impressed? I think not. In fact, the Japanese abhor emotional displays like that, it would be severely frowned upon. Actually, I don't think the Japanese like frowning either, but you get the point.

I really do commend you in defending your husband, and I know you are sincere in your apology. What about Richard? Does he feel his behaviour was acceptable?

Mouse

In Japan, they don't like emotional displays, this is true, but remember, this is also the same nation that in their history, honour was all.
To lose honour was to be a dead man walking.
To stand and fight on a point of honour wasn't a good thing or bad thing, it was the mark of the man.
By the way, did I tell you how much I enjoy Japanese culture and history? Excellent people.
Oh, and the food? Damn, love it.
Except they don't have carrots, organic or not.

Sidious, thanks again for making me laugh. What's with you and carrots eh? If ever I were to meet you, be sure, I'll bring along some carrots :)

Yes honour is everything in that culture, but for the Japanese to show emotion it would cause them to lose face or honour. I do wonder if they scream silently inside?

Mouse x

ace
2nd March 2011, 14:16
Time for a smile anyone?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X23J-si8wVg

Ace

Redtailhawk
2nd March 2011, 14:20
Levent tonga,

Today is a day for doing things publicly. In the thread we were discussing I brought up Lord of the Flies and you said my example was not valid because it was written by a man and not a boy. You also said you were an MD child psychologist. I looked at your profile to see what country you are from. I see cultural context as always important.

As an English teacher, I would say men write stories because of their childhood memories and experiences. I do not think what country you come from is irrelevant. Nor do I think one psychological analysis fits all.

I hope that clears up this matter for you. If not, you and I need to resort to PMs as this is not relevant to this topic.

Also, psychologists are not MD's but PhD's...psychiatrists are the MD's...just saying. :)

Lita
2nd March 2011, 14:24
There are many questions here that need to be answered directly and fully.

I totally agree.

kerbie
2nd March 2011, 14:26
Richard rarely acts out like that..he did to honor me.

Bill knows this.

If Bill had spoken to me the way he did (and still is to others) to my face..Richard would have punched him..

and ANY real man i know...would have understood why....even if maybe they dont condone violence..

I dont care how ****ed up i am... you do not ..take down a mans woman like that and not expect a reaction.

To honor you? This isn't feudal japan. This isn't the 1950's. If my girlfriend went around running her mouth and attacking people and then expecting me to "honor" her, she'd have another thing coming. Do you think your worm tongue thread was honorable?

This is about moving forward.

I came here to get away from all the trash talk and idle threats presented from say godlikeproductions, but I've noticed that several members seem determined to push themselves into the limelight at every chance and you, Celine, come up on my radar daily.

I'm not posting this because I dislike you or want to attack you or your fella, it's not my business. But what is my business is that your dominating presence often sidetracks discussion or causes flamewars and arguements. When I first came here, I thought you were a forum troll.

I try to avoid threads that have had your contributions because you leave me in a such a fluster. And it's sad, because I don't know you as a person. I feel that if you were gone from the forums, your enthusiasm and presence would be sorely missed, but on the other hand, I'd be happy to never have to read a typical post from you again, and I don't want to feel like this.

I've been in Richards situation before with a very popular forum whilst I was modding there, and I understand the frustration and how tensions can come to a climax at any minute. It happened to me, but fortunately it was years ago and I got to learn certain lessons at a younger age with a less critical audience. This is why I have taken the time to write this up. I really want to see you to stay. I'd really like to bump into you guys at a convention one day.

But the mindset needs to change. This cannot be about emotional bs. This cannot be about personal drama and trying to bring bad spotlight to other people. This is about dealing with what's going on around us and sorting it out in a logical, tangible and digestible way.

I really hope you take the time to look through this and imagine an outsider who knows nothing about you reading your posts. Imagine if your posting history in PA was saved a hosted online for all to view. What conclusions would people come to about you? I for one wouldn't feel comfortable alongside you in the 18 yet. I even considered asking for my application back when I saw your name was on the list of nominees.

But I know that deep down inside, your motivation and emotional responses and consistency on these boards is needed. I know you would make a very passionate member of the 18. But I think philosophically, there's still a lot of room for growth.

All the best with everything. Once again, please don't think of this as an attack or an insult. I just think you have a very flawed mindset, but cannot be mad at you if no one has ever told you about it.

Ruby L.
2nd March 2011, 14:29
--- Post deleted: Inappropriate (but wonderfully stress-relieving) giggle during a serious discussion. Apologies. ---

Operator
2nd March 2011, 14:29
As best I know, no admins or moderators can ever read members' private messages. I certainly can't, and have never thought of doing so. Richard has had a deeper level of access to the inner workings of the forum software, but I believe he cannot either.

I am not through this whole thread yet ... so maybe someone replied on this already.

When you have access to the webhosting control panel you have access to things like phpMyAdmin i.e. an interface to a (e.g. mySQL) database.
Everything passing through this forum is in some form present in the database. Some parts may be encrypted but I don't think it's the case
for most of the text parts. Besides the keys to decrypt should be available there as well (Passwords are an exception and can often not be decrypted).

With the level of access as described above it's easy to remove members from the database after which they simply don not exist anymore. However
everything related to a member (using an ID as index) is often stored in separate tables. So either all the references were destroyed too or when only
the member ID was removed ... the member could be restored when the corresponding ID can somehow be determined/retrieved.

I recently realized how much power and responsibility one has to have control over so much data in web based databases ... it takes a lot of discipline
not to abuse this power. Without knowing the root cause of all this mess I feel sorry for Richard if he was tempted/pushed in this direction.
People are not failsafe and when professionally profiled and targeted it takes a lot to avoid the pitfalls.

It takes a "Frodo Baggins" to carry the ring all the way to the fire and destroy it's power.

Gardener
2nd March 2011, 14:30
LOL. It may not have anything to do with Admin or mods.

Be aware that there are specialised people or AIs who have infiltrated this forum.

Edit: to suggest a far greater problem that email security breaches. What I'm saying is that it is not ADMIN and it is not MODS. Speculative at the moment, Edit

This is not a fantasy I'm afraid.

Ok I was going to sit this one out because I thought that Bill would get it for what it was. Thankfully Icecold has broached the subject so I feel I can support it here.

So far no one has taken into account the influences of mind manipulation or hyperdimesional reality. We are pretty awake indivduals on here, some much more than others; however being awake to the world situation does not mean we are awake to our true selves, our psyche, the influence of existential attack as individuals and collectively. It's a fact.

They attack through us, they use what is our weakest link, that which is UNCONSCIOUS in us and protected by the ego. Believe me, when a strategic person is triggered there is very often little that person can do about it. We see it over and over again, both in our personal lives and on the world stage and everywhere in between.

From my heart I hope that Bill will not allow this attack to have its effect, its time to SEE when the poison is injected and who is used as the vector.
I have to go out right now but I wanted to get this down now before it is too late.

This work must go on.
g

Charlie Pecos
2nd March 2011, 14:31
Hello Avalon,

I took a couple of days off from the forum to clear my head, and upon my return I am deeply saddened by what has occurred.
I go to great lengths to keep my posts positive and productive.
Many is the time I have erased something that, after review, I felt was not for the highest good.

Please Avalon, I implore you, If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say it at all.
It is ok to respectfully disagree, but for us to allow our home to be torn asunder by, of all forces, "us" ......is simply inexcusable.
We, all of us, must hold ourselves to a higher standard than what we hold anyone else.
Let this be a lesson to all who have read these threads: The lowest common denominator will only cause much pain.
How are we to be the future of mankind if we can't rise above the petty squabbles and school yard politics?

We can build each other up or tear each other down, it is our choice.
I came here because I thought Avalon was a very unique place where I could finally fit in and be among friends.
I am deeply disappointed by the school yard social political immature BS I have found here of late, but I know this is not what Avalon is about.
There are many good people here who strive to work towards a better future for all.

Please, let us all learn from our mistakes and look to those who set the right example, and then put forth our best work.
Let us forgive those who have made grave errors in judgement, for they are us and only human after all.
Those who have made their mistakes deserve only our love, forgiveness, and prayers.
What we are doing here is precious and worthy of fighting for.

Wishing everyone a beautiful day filled with love and forgiveness, and an everlasting appreciation of the one true creator.

Icecold
2nd March 2011, 14:32
I am getting feelings that I'm unsure if are real(they are from an ET AI), but my heart goes out to Richard as I am getting the feeling he is very sorry about all this and very sad about the turning of events, and the loss of his membership and work here will be felt by him in the future(he may be feeling this now). I am getting that he took pride in his affiliations here and it will be something he will look back on and miss if he is gone(even if things seemed very different to him just before this). I am also getting he is a good man. I'm not sure if I'm being fed lies or not. Maybe Celine can confirm or deny this.

I vote that Richard and Celine stay if possible. Not that my vote means much... I don't know what went on behind the scenes or if things can be mended. But I can't help but feel bad for Richard and Celine. I feel both are good people. How a bunch of good people end up fighting is disheartening. Just goes to show humans are not very spiritually evolved yet(compared to whats out there anyway).

Either way, Avalon will move forward. I just really hope we don't lose more valuable members over this. I'm here for the longhaul, even though I'm new. I plan on staying here as long as this forum is up, or until I die... I really do wholeheartedly value every contributing member here that has helped me and others in their paths of knowledge/wisdom sharing, and awakening to the true nature of reality together.

Not that I think this is what it is, but mind control really could be present here. If Richard is reading this, I'd recommend analyzing your thoughts and emotions in some self reflection. See if he could find any anomalies that are not of his own essence. If he ends up saying "That was really uncharacteristic of me. And I was completely controlled by emotion, and this has never happened before" It's possible it was not of your character at all... But I am admittedly overly analytical of mind control, as I am subjected to it literally every single day, most days all day with very little breaks from it(but it's in both positive and negative ways)...

I doubt you will die anytime soon, you are young. Wisdom at your age is amazing to me.

I have had a recent experience here. A thought not easily guessed, very specific was posted here. For me this is a conundrum. Something which tells me my thoughts are not that private for some who are not benevolent.

ace
2nd March 2011, 14:33
Bill, will you be allowing back "GypsyWoman"?

I'll answer that question indirectly. One of the things I would like to know as a fact (one way or another) is whether or not Gypsy Woman was going nuts with justified rage and indignation because she knew for sure that her PMs were being read in the name of 'investigation'.


I will give you my opinion......no....she was nuts before any of that happened.

From the first few posts of hers when she blasted onto this forum, I knew that things were going to happen, and not in a good way. Bill, she caused discord right from the beginning. I know for a fact she threatened one individual here on the forum....and that threat was pmd to the adms and mods. This person did not deserve it in any way.

That was not the question, the Question was whether or not Gypsy Woman was going nuts with justified rage and indignation because she knew for sure that her PMs were being read in the name of 'investigation'

Ace

Steph
2nd March 2011, 14:34
Dear Celine,

Please accept my apologies, Hong Kong is indeed now part of China. My thoughts were rushed, I had hoped to make a useful point for Richard. My comment is redundant now, pls do not take offense.

Mouse x

Carmody
2nd March 2011, 14:37
The Course in Miracles has some gems
One is,
"We are never angry for the reason we think we are"

What happened last night was the culmination of many things of which I know not what.

In addition there are many energies coming in from the solar system that the human mind and body are not used to handling.

I had a residential home for he elderly and I used to dread the full moon.
Those who had Alzheimer were greatly affected. lovely old dears became threatening and sometimes even violent.

To err is human to forgive Divine

peak moon energies coming up in about 36-48 hours, then a decline by the same two day cycle on the back side of the peak.

Just saying.

Still coming off the eclipse pulse from the original interview (hidden) and then it's release (public) two weeks later.

BOTH happened exactly 3 days before each given moon/eclipse cycle.

As is happening now.

Can you folks begin to see the pattern?

Please do so, so you can understand how these things work!

Your ass is literally tied to moon cycling and astrology.

Please see it. We very much need this to happen.Since the interview and it's release, you can go back and the pulsing of this forum and issues have followed this to utter perfection. Absolute utter perfection.

When I talk about the flow of hyper-dimensional fractal-dimensional energies and the planets motions (And individual vibrations) being involved ... they are immersed in a dynamic oscillating flow, well... it is right there. Plain as day.

Each planet and the sun...have their own oscillatory contribution in your flowing in and through (your individual pattern and response- as well) in this river of time and how we bounce along in response to it's actions and motions in the physical meat puppet emotional sense (body avatar response).

The mind and body -the window we look through into this temporal flow universe are deeply affected by this patterning. It literally causes us to dance in repeated and predictable patterns. Astrology. The original science and knowledge base that all others flow out of.

Is not a three month pattern of utter perfection of response, to a perfect 'T' enough for you people to begin to see the depths of this multi-dimensional avatar system --for what it is?

When will you..what does it take..when will you allow yourself to awaken?

When will you use your intellect and curiosity to help you awaken? To note that aspect of autonomous response to turn and look at it?

Thank you. :)

Icecold
2nd March 2011, 14:43
Bill, will you be allowing back "GypsyWoman"?

I'll answer that question indirectly. One of the things I would like to know as a fact (one way or another) is whether or not Gypsy Woman was going nuts with justified rage and indignation because she knew for sure that her PMs were being read in the name of 'investigation'.


I will give you my opinion......no....she was nuts before any of that happened.

From the first few posts of hers when she blasted onto this forum, I knew that things were going to happen, and not in a good way. Bill, she caused discord right from the beginning. I know for a fact she threatened one individual here on the forum....and that threat was pmd to the adms and mods. This person did not deserve it in any way.

That was not the question, the Question was whether or not Gypsy Woman was going nuts with justified rage and indignation because she knew for sure that her PMs were being read in the name of 'investigation'

Ace

In my case Ace, she had no justification for rage and her vid of a murder/torture directed at me was less than amusing.

Her accusation that I was in some way connected to an agency, again was not amusing.

Her accusation that I threatened her son was also not amusing.

None of these things were associated with reading of emails.

These were pure malice and fantasy with a specific goal in mind. What the goal was I won't ponder.

Not an innocent my friend. She is in some ways a deeply disturbed individual who focuses attention entirely on herself...all the time.

GoldenYears
2nd March 2011, 14:43
Bill, will you be allowing back "GypsyWoman"?

I'll answer that question indirectly. One of the things I would like to know as a fact (one way or another) is whether or not Gypsy Woman was going nuts with justified rage and indignation because she knew for sure that her PMs were being read in the name of 'investigation'.


I will give you my opinion......no....she was nuts before any of that happened.

From the first few posts of hers when she blasted onto this forum, I knew that things were going to happen, and not in a good way. Bill, she caused discord right from the beginning. I know for a fact she threatened one individual here on the forum....and that threat was pmd to the adms and mods. This person did not deserve it in any way.

That was not the question, the Question was whether or not Gypsy Woman was going nuts with justified rage and indignation because she knew for sure that her PMs were being read in the name of 'investigation'

Ace

Okay, you got me there Ace. :o I guess I read that wrong.

Yes, Im sure that her anger was justified when she found out her pms were being read.

Still doesnt justify her behaviour before all that happened.

THIRDEYE
2nd March 2011, 14:46
my best wishes to richard and celine,in this unfortunate issue,i slso support bills decision it is his forum for celine and richard love light and abundance....thirdeye.....

Dorok
2nd March 2011, 14:50
Well I'm just gutted...

Even as I'm relatively new here, I've made acquaintances/friends on ALL sides of this issue (think what you will about that). It's been very painful to watch this drama (HERE of all places!) for a variety of reasons. The following is a (probably incomplete) casualty list from my point view.

Lost members...
Celine
Richard
Beth
Lee-B
Gypsy Woman
...maybe others to come

Wounded principles:
Peace
Civility
Cooperation
Trust
Silence
Attention to matters of higher priority
Unity

The piece of this that really gets under my skin the most is the part where Richard loses his cool defending Celine. What this reminds me of is something that should be known to most of you as an example from Bill's interview with Charles. Charles say that (paraphrasing) "a good/honorable man is the easiest target b/c you can always predict how he will act."

How easy is it to provoke an explosive, emotional reaction by insulting a man's wife from halfway around the world? How hard is it to recover from that reaction with your dignity, integrity, etc. in tact when your reaction was essentially public?

This was an easy and successful op in my opinion, not worthy of the score it racked up... And WE all lose, again. Nothing new under the sun...

"Caterpillar sheds his skin to find the butterfly within...
First there is a mountain then there is no mountain, then there is" ~Donovan

naochan
2nd March 2011, 14:50
Dear Celine, please do not misunderstand me, I do not doubt Richard's loyalty or integrity to you or the CEO of the corporation in Japan that he works for. However, do you think that if this CEO happened to see Richard's behavior last night, he would be impressed? I think not. In fact, the Japanese abhor emotional displays like that, it would be severely frowned upon. Actually, I don't think the Japanese like frowning either, but you get the point.

Just like Celine pointed out, Hong Kong is not Japan, it's part of China.

But I do see what you are trying to do here.


In Japan, they don't like emotional displays, this is true, but remember, this is also the same nation that in their history, honour was all.
To lose honour was to be a dead man walking.
To stand and fight on a point of honour wasn't a good thing or bad thing, it was the mark of the man.
By the way, did I tell you how much I enjoy Japanese culture and history? Excellent people.
Oh, and the food? Damn, love it.
Except they don't have carrots, organic or not.



Lord Sidious, you are being very funny! For the record, though,
we do have some fine carrot dishes, like ninjin kimpira (seasoned and sauteed carrots), yum!

But seriously, well said, Nick.



BILL, please talk to Richard,and Beth and the others, kiss each other, punch each other, head butt each other, but sort it out, we can't let our team fall apart and let them bloody win an inch.

Celine, come back, but don't fall for the sh#t, we all know how much you care, your just a big care bear, you can't help yourself and there's nothing wrong with that.

BILL, Richard,Beth,Mods,Celine, come on what do you say? have a break and calm down, a good sleep or two and we can can carry on the fight against them NOT between ourselves.

Keep it honest and open and nice and we can all do what we are here for, not let them get in amongst us like a fox in the hen house.

Well thats all I've got for now, what do you say people.

..Nick..

I will sincerely hope that Bill, Richard, Beth, and Celine will have some break and talk again.

---post update---

I missed Mouse's #176 (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?15437-An-important-announcement-following-the-closure-of-the-WORM-TONGUE-thread&p=162112&viewfull=1#post162112) post. My apologies... :o naomi

ace
2nd March 2011, 14:50
Bill, will you be allowing back "GypsyWoman"?

I'll answer that question indirectly. One of the things I would like to know as a fact (one way or another) is whether or not Gypsy Woman was going nuts with justified rage and indignation because she knew for sure that her PMs were being read in the name of 'investigation'.


I will give you my opinion......no....she was nuts before any of that happened.

From the first few posts of hers when she blasted onto this forum, I knew that things were going to happen, and not in a good way. Bill, she caused discord right from the beginning. I know for a fact she threatened one individual here on the forum....and that threat was pmd to the adms and mods. This person did not deserve it in any way.

That was not the question, the Question was whether or not Gypsy Woman was going nuts with justified rage and indignation because she knew for sure that her PMs were being read in the name of 'investigation'

Ace

In my case Ace, she had no justification for rage and her vid of a murder/torture directed at me was less than amusing.

Her accusation that I was in some was connected to an agency, again was not amusing.

Her accusation that I threatened her son was also not amusing.

None of these things were associated with reading of emails.

These were pure malice and fantasy with a specific goal in mind. What the goal was I won't ponder.

Not an innocent my friend. She is in some ways a deeply disturbed individual who focuses attention entirely on herself...all the time.

Respecting what you say.
These are all personal to you.
Fred Aster would say; It takes two to tango.
And its allways best to know who you are dancing with.
Regards
Ace

thunder24
2nd March 2011, 14:52
Well if some has been two faced, or stabbed in back .....then it would seem there isn't much transperancy. If I had dealing with someone and someone else told me they had been stabbed in the back from the other, I would want to know why and what it was about.... so to keep integrity and trust....... what were the actual actions of two facedness.... TRANSPARANCY PLEASE!!!!

Isostool
2nd March 2011, 15:00
Bill, will you be allowing back "GypsyWoman"?

I'll answer that question indirectly. One of the things I would like to know as a fact (one way or another) is whether or not Gypsy Woman was going nuts with justified rage and indignation because she knew for sure that her PMs were being read in the name of 'investigation'.

This is not the point. The point is, that she consistently behaved in an inappropriate manner on thread. Only a couple of posts back in from her vacation, a mod had to remove a picture [which contained a gun?] some peaceful ol' members found threatening and distubring. Then there are the hundred or so other things.......
gut says NO. gut right.

jorr lundstrom
2nd March 2011, 15:00
Bill, will you be allowing back "GypsyWoman"?

I'll answer that question indirectly. One of the things I would like to know as a fact (one way or another) is whether or not Gypsy Woman was going nuts with justified rage and indignation because she knew for sure that her PMs were being read in the name of 'investigation'.


I will give you my opinion......no....she was nuts before any of that happened.

From the first few posts of hers when she blasted onto this forum, I knew that things were going to happen, and not in a good way. Bill, she caused discord right from the beginning. I know for a fact she threatened one individual here on the forum....and that threat was pmd to the adms and mods. This person did not deserve it in any way.

That was not the question, the Question was whether or not Gypsy Woman was going nuts with justified rage and indignation because she knew for sure that her PMs were being read in the name of 'investigation'

Ace

In my case Ace, she had no justification for rage and her vid of a murder/torture directed at me was less than amusing.

Her accusation that I was in some way connected to an agency, again was not amusing.

Her accusation that I threatened her son was also not amusing.

None of these things were associated with reading of emails.

These were pure malice and fantasy with a specific goal in mind. What the goal was I won't ponder.

Not an innocent my friend. She is in some ways a deeply disturbed individual who focuses attention entirely on herself...all the time.

I wrote a PM to Icecold. GW quoted me words for words from that PM in a post where she threatened me subtly.

One hour later that post was erased. But my woman read it too, so the post wasnt in my imagination.

When I mentioned it in a post she acted as if she didnt know wot I was talking about. And demanded that

I should declare myself when I returned from my time out. So maybye not totally innocent. By the way,

how do we know its a woman?;)

Steph
2nd March 2011, 15:01
Dear Celine, please do not misunderstand me, I do not doubt Richard's loyalty or integrity to you or the CEO of the corporation in Japan that he works for. However, do you think that if this CEO happened to see Richard's behavior last night, he would be impressed? I think not. In fact, the Japanese abhor emotional displays like that, it would be severely frowned upon. Actually, I don't think the Japanese like frowning either, but you get the point.

Just like Celine pointed out, Hong Kong is not Japan, it's part of China.

But I do see what you are trying to do here.


In Japan, they don't like emotional displays, this is true, but remember, this is also the same nation that in their history, honour was all.
To lose honour was to be a dead man walking.
To stand and fight on a point of honour wasn't a good thing or bad thing, it was the mark of the man.
By the way, did I tell you how much I enjoy Japanese culture and history? Excellent people.
Oh, and the food? Damn, love it.
Except they don't have carrots, organic or not.



Lord Sidious, you are being very funny! For the record, though,
we do have some fine carrot dishes, like ninjin kimpira (seasoned and sauteed carrots), yum!

But seriously, well said, Nick.



BILL, please talk to Richard,and Beth and the others, kiss each other, punch each other, head butt each other, but sort it out, we can't let our team fall apart and let them bloody win an inch.

Celine, come back, but don't fall for the sh#t, we all know how much you care, your just a big care bear, you can't help yourself and there's nothing wrong with that.

BILL, Richard,Beth,Mods,Celine, come on what do you say? have a break and calm down, a good sleep or two and we can can carry on the fight against them NOT between ourselves.

Keep it honest and open and nice and we can all do what we are here for, not let them get in amongst us like a fox in the hen house.

Well thats all I've got for now, what do you say people.

..Nick..

I will sincerely hope that Bill, Richard, Beth, and Celine will have some break and talk again.

Thanks Naochan, yes it was an error - a big one, I apologised earlier for it and have apologised to Celine also. It was well intended :)

Yoda
2nd March 2011, 15:03
As I wrote above, the world continues. In the meantime, I will not see this forum polluted by negative emotion, smears, innuendoes, and unjustified personal attack. If we want to create a better world, it has to start here, with each of us personally and with the way we relate to others. While that construction job is in progress, there may be certain people who we exclude from the worksite. Ultimately, of course, we are all in this together.

With my best wishes to everyone ~ Bill

Bill, the only way you could have true perspective on this situation, is from the high plateau, you and Kerry, have climbed recently. Your integration is a perfect example.
Pierre

highvoltage
2nd March 2011, 15:04
Something bigger is happening, not only here but everywhere. There has been a "overdrive" switch flipped on peoples emotions. A hightened sence of things! Something big is about to take place!

Yoda
2nd March 2011, 15:06
After I had drawn attention to his postion, he left the forum of his own accord. All that was fine.

Daddy's home, and I can your fire of righteousness.
Pierre

qbeac
2nd March 2011, 15:10
Bill, will Lee-b be reinstated? i thought he had a fair and valid argumennt on the 'worm' thread, and i frankly did not understand all the vitriol tossed his way. don't think he got a fair shake there.

Richard completely removed Lee_B from the database. I can't unban him, because his record was permanently deleted and he no longer exists. It was an extraordinary action.
Hi Bill, I agree 100% with Chinaski.

In my opinion, Lee-B should be reinstated, with that nick name or with a similar one, that’s up to him.

I saw what happened in the WORM TONGUE thread and I think the treatment Lee-B received was unfair, disrespectful, and disproportionate.

I do agree and understand that Lee-B did got frustrated and showed his anger, and he shouldn’t have, and perhaps some type of reprimand was appropriate for him in that particular moment.

However, to ban him completely from the forum and with those bad manners was way too much and totally inappropriate, in my opinion.

Imo, Lee-B does not deserve a permanent ban.

Please, Bill, consider reinstating his status as an active member.

Thanks.

-----------------------

With regards to Richard, if this was my forum (but it is not), I would allow him to speak out his own POV, politely, with respect, perhaps not as a moderator right now (due to what has happened), but as a regular member until the situation is resolved.

But in general terms, I am not in favour of secrets (with extreme exceptions where the life or wellbeing of somebody might be in jeopardy) and I am not in favour of censorship of ideas or opinions, even if we don’t agree with them. Truth will come up in any case, truth is not afraid of lies, but the contrary.

Thanks.

robert
2nd March 2011, 15:11
The Course in Miracles has some gems
One is,
"We are never angry for the reason we think we are"

What happened last night was the culmination of many things of which I know not what.

In addition there are many energies coming in from the solar system that the human mind and body are not used to handling.

I had a residential home for he elderly and I used to dread the full moon.
Those who had Alzheimer were greatly affected. lovely old dears became threatening and sometimes even violent.

To err is human to forgive Divine

Hello greybeard

"In addition there are many energies coming in from the solar system that the human mind and body are not used to handling."

Very good observation, thank you for brigning this point forward.
It's all about vibrations and frequencys, the human race will adapt.

Robert

jorr lundstrom
2nd March 2011, 15:11
Respecting what you say.
These are all personal to you.
Fred Aster would say; It takes two to tango.
And its allways best to know who you are dancing with.
Regards
Ace


Ace, its true, it takes two to tango. But I have learned in my life, it only takes one for war.

If someone goes to war with you, your unwillingness to participate is a part of the war.

Please look around in the world wots happening between nations too.;)

Yoda
2nd March 2011, 15:11
I know for me personally this would eliminate a lot of concerns I have now. Just knowing how things work.

I sincerely appreciate your time and consideration in answering this.

Jai

I am sure glad that you are true to yourself, and follow your gut feeling.
Pierre

Icecold
2nd March 2011, 15:12
Jorr writes:


I wrote a PM to Icecold. GW quoted me words for words from that PM in a post where she threatened me subtly.

One hour later that post was erased. But my woman read it too, so the post wasnt in my imagination.

When I mentioned it in a post she acted as if she didnt know wot I was talking about. And demanded that

I should declare myself when I returned from my time out. So maybye not totally innocent. By the way,

how do we know its a woman?

I did not send GW any of that information.

How did she get access to my emails?

Like I said earlier, its not MODS or ADMIN that are the problem with PMs.

Something/someone else is involved. And it ain't pretty.


BTW a MOD has closed my AI thread. I won't ask to have it re-opened. It is just another example of our strange invisible smurfs. Do they influence and organise thoughts here? Possibly.


There are 892 guests here at the moment, the silent majority. Welcome to you.

This forum is providing you with information and realities which you have not thought possible. This is one of the roles of this forum. It is here to help you wake up. Now help us. When you leave here, go and tell as many people as possible about what you find here, tell them about the real world that they live in and explain to them that they may be needed some time in the future to form a mass movement, to create a change on our enslaved planet.

magicmanx
2nd March 2011, 15:13
We know that every post, every pm is monitored. Every Skype conversation you have had with Charles as been listened to.
Yes..... the info being divulged is for many new and exciting stuff, but at the end of the day, we are being monitored and in ways we really don't know about………….
What is the point of it all ?
The end result will be a known given when it comes...both to those who control us and other enemies.........!!!!!!!!!
I have been dying to ask this question right from the beginning and some thousands of post later I still cannot come up with the logic of it.

Hi Guys
I posted this away back on the 5th Febuary and at the time I was referring to the Charles Material but at the same time I was also assuming it as a given that all PM’s were being read in the background by those with the knowledge and the know how for this. It is the nature of the beast I’m afraid.

In this very sad present situation we are discussing on this thread, it might be a very good moment for all of us to take a step back and really re-evaluate what in fact the future holds for all of us posting on this forum or any forum for that matter, and in fact what our future really is in this world of technology. I also made reference a thousand posts back to the power of the machine(s) to read thoughts and or……..whatever they are capable of. Much within the forum pages has now finally been written on this including the addition of their posts. I see our boys are on to this and now getting down to this in all earnest. Way to go! x

However, it is with great sadness I say this but we are in a battle for our lives and the way we can live our lives in this world of technology and like it or not this is not a battle that we can win. We are lost souls in this technology juggernaught no matter how great we think we are. We are truly stuck in the proverbial ‘ Catch 22 ‘

If we want a new world something has got to change with this, but what …….. ? As Icke says… Love is all there is, everything else is an Illusion. I guess this might be a good place to start certainly on this thread. I send my heart felt love to those involved and to all of us holding our space. We deserve more........

For the rest…………. I just want to add to Atticus. Unless you can communicate to me, far far and beyond even telepathy, then believe me my friend we are flogging the proverbial dead horse here.

I could cry at our stupidity …………… but I hold firm in the knowing, that we are more than our physical bodies because we are more than physical matter and that one day we will see that wonderful potential we all are and can be beyond our physical world……………………. Sigh! ............... Please don't let us be too late.

Limor Wolf
2nd March 2011, 15:15
Hey Bill,

I'm sure you have had better days.

I'm rather new here and do not fully understand the disagreements and where they got their start.

I'm seeing you and Avalon are losing valuable members, some who consider you their friend. They are all convinced that they are trying to help you. They all seem convinced you are not listening to them and their concerns. These people were once valuable allies to you and these forums. They are hurting themselves to get your attention.

Does their cause for concern have merit? Are you missing something that seems obvious to your friends?


If it is time for these friendships to end then so be it. If these people are truly looking out for you ........maybe they stay.

This is your decision, only you know what happened with these relationships.

I wish you and all involved the best however it turns out.

I think what is offered here is valuable and important. I will be staying regardless.

Peace to you

HI there aikisaw,

one thing i noticed about Bill as a person,a long time ago,that he has some good senses for people and situations and he takes the higher perspective and Integrates all the data befor he makes a decision.that does not promise that he or anyone else who holds the same capabilities to be right on 100% and how can it be expected from him when he himself is the object in accusation.

we might want to look at the situation this way: if we thrive to creat a holographic community in essence,and we are aware that whats on the outside starts from whitin us,than we dont need queens and kings of the class.we do not need the 'old' style politics,we do not need being petty and get even with others.we do need to have clear head to continue with our mission,personal ,communal and on world wide scale.we do need the support of each other without anyone feeling in risk to open their mouth and say the wrong thing.we need some kind of a broad plan to achieve our goals (and to enjoy ourself while doing it) and we need to stay focused.

as far as i can see Bill Ryan is acting in a very focused way towords this goal.getting stuck in "our own feelings" and "how hurt we are"- not in the point of observation ,but in the point of adopting this victimhood feelings and transplanting it to our blood,will not serve us in the long run.

maybe its best if we focused towords our goals and what we came to do here for the better of all and not just ourselfs.


Celine originally posted:
If Bill had spoken to me the way he did (and still is to others) to my face..Richard would have punched him..

and ANY real man i know...would have understood why

i appreciate my 'luck' so far to not be with 'real men',David icke explains it the best,we are so caught in our 'roles' as mothers,husbands,wifes,Ethell smith and david jones,and how we should 'react' in our 'roles'.but we better remember,
a soldier is a role as well,a politician...do we really wish to stick to that?

WHY are we not changing the paradigm? WHY to cling to the current thoughts that does not serve us right...

how can it be 'honorable' of a man to 'defend' his wife by threatening back someone,
and WHY is it accaptable to 'return' the same energy and to fuel the fire despite what all of us know today-vibration wise...and we know it because we discuss it and feel it here on Avalon many times.
Its time for a change of energy.anyone who can hold it is most welcome,anyone who still cant will be absolutly most welcome and with open arms when he can.

peace and good energies to us all

Limor

jorr lundstrom
2nd March 2011, 15:18
Jorr writes:


I wrote a PM to Icecold. GW quoted me words for words from that PM in a post where she threatened me subtly.

One hour later that post was erased. But my woman read it too, so the post wasnt in my imagination.

When I mentioned it in a post she acted as if she didnt know wot I was talking about. And demanded that

I should declare myself when I returned from my time out. So maybye not totally innocent. By the way,

how do we know its a woman?

I did not send GW any of that information.

How did she get access to my emails?

Like I said earlier, its not MODS or ADMIN that are the problem with PMs.

Something/someone else is involved. And it ain't pretty.

I dont know how she got that PM, but she did. I say as always dont underestimate the

other side. We speak about AI:s as a problem,

the whole universe is represented on this forum Im sure.

Some of the nonhumans here are not AI:s LMAO

Redtailhawk
2nd March 2011, 15:20
The young man who pushed Celine and Richards buttons was in touch with me at the time all this was going on last night,
He was greatly influenced by Gypsy Woman.
I pointed out some things to him, ie that she tended to create problems and was a bit paranoid though I liked her.
I asked him to stop provoking the situation, I warned him that perusing what he believed to be true could be to the cost of many.
That it could lead to the end of Avalon.
I told him that he only had part of the picture. Who has the whole picture here?
His nose was out of joint as he felt he has significant information regarding Charles which had been ignored by Bill and the Mods.
He told me had given the info to admin. I dont know what the information is,

He persisted in baiting Celine inspite of my advice and see the end result.
Now here was a person who as far as I know had only been here a short time bringing down on purpose two people who have served Avalon for years.
Every one has a weak spot and if you know that weakness it is easy to provoke a response and further more when you know what the response will be it is irresponsible to continue. He did

Charles is very astute, he said that people of integrity are the easiest to manipulate as they follow set rules of behavior.
He also said that divisive thing tend to happen around him.
I like Charles, I would not follow him, but his appearance here was miss handled.
Since that video was released on u tube and here we have seen turmoil like never before.

I dont take sides though I care about Avalon, Bill, Richard and Celine. (in no particular order)


Everybody makes mistakes

To err is Human to forgive is Divine.

People are taking sides without a full picture of what is going on or went on.
Can we resist the temptation to do this?

This is is a great place It seems a bit like Titanic at the moment.
I have no suggestion as to how we can move on.
But we can

Chris

Hi Chris,

Sounds like your source might have been Lee B. himself, not that you need to confirm this of course :)

Thank you for your insights.

Maria

Yoda
2nd March 2011, 15:22
Is this just a loss of temper that happens sometimes or is there something else at work.... I have to question the motivations upon what has happened here.

Charles said right from the beginning, I am sent to make the problem go away. " THE POWERS THAT WERE" tried, by breaking up Bill and Kerry; then they unleashed unlimited amounts of venom, in the blood, in the hope of bringing down the house.
Pierre

sleepy
2nd March 2011, 15:23
" We have met the enemy and he is us"....POGO

jorr lundstrom
2nd March 2011, 15:26
This happening now is a P#ss in Mississippi. But wot will happen the day when the flow

of energy is at a level so that telepathy spreads lika a virus? Wot will happen then if a lot of people

have double agendas and a lot of not exactly tasteful secrets? ;)

granny
2nd March 2011, 15:28
Abolish The PM service. Have it all up front. Were it should be.

Transparency = Truth, Understanding and Peace of mind.

PM= Paranoia.

Ace

I'd have to disagree with you on this one Ace. The reason being is that I never discuss someone else in PM, however I have many times worked with people concerning what they feel are personal issues. Seeing as you are one of my friends does that mean that if I came to you with a personal issue, you would have no problem discussing it publicly without my consent? I sincerely hope not.

Namaste.

Have i ever.

Ace
Ok then ....
The reason I do not want the PM system to disappear: I have casual conversations with my friends ... nothing that would really matter if it were public, but such communications would clutter up the forum ... unless of course everyone is interested in how many cats I am feeding on my back porch. jmo

Lifesong
2nd March 2011, 15:28
His nose was out of joint as he felt he has significant information regarding Charles which had been ignored by Bill and the Mods.
He told me had given the info to admin. I dont know what the information is,

(...)




I call on anyone with what they think to be significant information regarding Charles to share it openly on the forum.

I question why they would not have already done so.

Yoda
2nd March 2011, 15:28
Anyone who wants to tell their story should be able to come here...IMO
We have to use our discernment

This is not a dumping place, it's a clearing house for TRUTH.
Pierre

ace
2nd March 2011, 15:29
Respecting what you say.
These are all personal to you.
Fred Aster would say; It takes two to tango.
And its allways best to know who you are dancing with.
Regards
Ace


Ace, its true, it takes two to tango. But I have learned in my life, it only takes one for war.

If someone goes to war with you, your unwillingness to participate is a part of the war.

Please look around in the world wots happening between nations too.;)

Jorr I respect your being Greatly and I feel Ice would agree (I am in no way talking for him) He knows how to a "push the button".
In my world, you choose to push a persons buttons, it means you want to know.
Sometimes we get more than we bargained for.

Allow me to put it this way, She was under "attack" from six different positions. (I know this)
Can any one say Honestly? all this is down to one woman?

She might have seen and known things others did not, Don't forget she came with fresh eyes.

While allot of "Old Guard" had settled in to "Familiarity Comfort Zone" (which we know breeds content)
She is a analyst, She looks for the truth.

Some people don't like that.
Regards

Ace

TWINNICK
2nd March 2011, 15:35
LOL. It may not have anything to do with Admin or mods.

Be aware that there are specialised people or AIs who have infiltrated this forum.

Edit: to suggest a far greater problem that email security breaches. What I'm saying is that it is not ADMIN and it is not MODS. Speculative at the moment, Edit

This is not a fantasy I'm afraid.

Ok I was going to sit this one out because I thought that Bill would get it for what it was. Thankfully Icecold has broached the subject so I feel I can support it here.

So far no one has taken into account the influences of mind manipulation or hyperdimesional reality. We are pretty awake indivduals on here, some much more than others; however being awake to the world situation does not mean we are awake to our true selves, our psyche, the influence of existential attack as individuals and collectively. It's a fact.

They attack through us, they use what is our weakest link, that which is UNCONSCIOUS in us and protected by the ego. Believe me, when a strategic person is triggered there is very often little that person can do about it. We see it over and over again, both in our personal lives and on the world stage and everywhere in between.

From my heart I hope that Bill will not allow this attack to have its effect, its time to SEE when the poison is injected and who is used as the vector.
I have to go out right now but I wanted to get this down now before it is too late.

This work must go on.
g


G'day,

UUmmmm if you go back to my post (and some other members) you will find that there is referance to the manipulation of the ptw and their mind control, and we know about the (cray) and psyops crap imposed on us.

..Nick..

jorr lundstrom
2nd March 2011, 15:38
Respecting what you say.
These are all personal to you.
Fred Aster would say; It takes two to tango.
And its allways best to know who you are dancing with.
Regards
Ace


Ace, its true, it takes two to tango. But I have learned in my life, it only takes one for war.

If someone goes to war with you, your unwillingness to participate is a part of the war.

Please look around in the world wots happening between nations too.;)

Jorr I respect your being Greatly and I feel Ice would agree (I am in no way talking for him) He knows how to a "push the button".
In my world, you choose to push a persons buttons, it means you want to know.
Sometimes we get more than we bargained for.

Allow me to put it this way, She was under "attack" from six different positions. (I know this)
Can any one say Honestly? all this is down to one woman?

She might have seen and known things others did not, Don't forget she came with fresh eyes.

While allot of "Old Guard" had settled in to "Familiarity Comfort Zone" (which we no breeds content)
She is a analyst, She looks for the truth.

Some people don't like that.
Regards

Ace

I hear wot your saying Ace, did yuo read wot I answered you about tango?

But I dont agree with you, I trust my intuition one hundred percent. I have

sharpened it my whole life. She had a fight going with Spirit Wolf, both were

banned. When she came back she pictured herself as a victim. I dont feel quite

sure she was the victim in that fight.:smokin:

ulli
2nd March 2011, 15:39
[This is now a little like that scene in A FEW GOOD MEN with Jack Nicholson.

You're damned right we read Private Messages!!

This is totally not funny, of course. That part of me that habitually makes references to movie moments had to make the link. I guess humor is a form of attempted denial. I really did not want this to be true.

I suffered for YEARS after leaving England for not leaving the (in)famous British humour behind.
YEARS!!
In other cultures it goes not only right over people's heads, many times it is totally taken the wrong way.
I went through many gauntlets as a result.
Poor Bill!

Not everyone is as subtle as you are.

Here is one of Gurdjieff's great bonmots:
(and please don't get me wrong, I'm just trying to be funny to lighten things up)

"The English are the most intelligent people on the planet which goes to show how low the planet still is."

ace
2nd March 2011, 15:44
Respecting what you say.
These are all personal to you.
Fred Aster would say; It takes two to tango.
And its allways best to know who you are dancing with.


Regards
Ace


Ace, its true, it takes two to tango. But I have learned in my life, it only takes one for war.

If someone goes to war with you, your unwillingness to participate is a part of the war.

Please look around in the world wots happening between nations too.;)

Jorr I respect your being Greatly and I feel Ice would agree (I am in no way talking for him) He knows how to a "push the button".
In my world, you choose to push a persons buttons, it means you want to know.
Sometimes we get more than we bargained for.

Allow me to put it this way, She was under "attack" from six different positions. (I know this)
Can any one say Honestly? all this is down to one woman?

She might have seen and known things others did not, Don't forget she came with fresh eyes.

While allot of "Old Guard" had settled in to "Familiarity Comfort Zone" (which we no breeds content)
She is a analyst, She looks for the truth.

Some people don't like that.
Regards

Ace

I hear wot your saying Ace, did yuo read wot I answered you about tango?

But I dont agree with you, I trust my intuition one hundred percent. I have

sharpened it my whole life. She had a fight going with Spirit Wolf, both were

banned. When she came back she pictured herself as a victim. I dont feel quite

sure she was the victim in that fight.:smokin:

Jorr
She had no fight with Spirit Wolf.
Spirit Wolf went looking for her. Go re read, the truth is all their.

With due respect some times when I sharpen my pencil to much
I lose the point

Ace

Icecold
2nd March 2011, 15:45
LOL. It may not have anything to do with Admin or mods.

Be aware that there are specialised people or AIs who have infiltrated this forum.

Edit: to suggest a far greater problem that email security breaches. What I'm saying is that it is not ADMIN and it is not MODS. Speculative at the moment, Edit

This is not a fantasy I'm afraid.

Ok I was going to sit this one out because I thought that Bill would get it for what it was. Thankfully Icecold has broached the subject so I feel I can support it here.

So far no one has taken into account the influences of mind manipulation or hyperdimesional reality. We are pretty awake indivduals on here, some much more than others; however being awake to the world situation does not mean we are awake to our true selves, our psyche, the influence of existential attack as individuals and collectively. It's a fact.

They attack through us, they use what is our weakest link, that which is UNCONSCIOUS in us and protected by the ego. Believe me, when a strategic person is triggered there is very often little that person can do about it. We see it over and over again, both in our personal lives and on the world stage and everywhere in between.

From my heart I hope that Bill will not allow this attack to have its effect, its time to SEE when the poison is injected and who is used as the vector.
I have to go out right now but I wanted to get this down now before it is too late.

This work must go on.
g


G'day,

UUmmmm if you go back to my post (and some other members) you will find that there is referance to the manipulation of the ptw and their mind control, and we know about the (cray) and psyops crap imposed on us.

..Nick..

Yes nick, very good.

But what are you doing about it besides talking or knowing.

Annacarl
2nd March 2011, 15:46
Well, My timing is really bad. Sent my first PM to Bill last night... Had no idea what was going on here. I used the PM as I do not want to embarrass myself with my ignorance. However, after reading a bit this morning I do not think I should worry about that. Bill if you see this , after I sent you the PM I found a couple of threads on the general subject although nothing about the person I ask you about. Anyway I am here searching for truth and am quickly realizing that many are all pretty lost and maybe I am not as stupid as I feel. I suppose there is no time wasted here but it is frustrating when things get personal and take us off track. Again I am thankful for you all and I am here to learn. Hopefully I will be able to help more soon.
Thanks,
Anna

Yoda
2nd March 2011, 15:51
just a thought
how many people will leave here and join charles site.
the master of manipulation,stated he was sent to split bill and kerry.
next avalon?
how many people have left already.
how many people said they may leave soon.
is there a connection?

He gave the rules of engagement right from the beginning. I will bring him(Bill) into my confidence, then I will totally discredit him. They smiled.

Jonathon
2nd March 2011, 15:53
I would love to have some pearl of wisdom that would 'fix' this situation, yet I'm mostly just reading post by post with my mouth half open and a dumb look on my face. I'm pretty sure some drool came out at some point LOL.

I will say this however:

1) Like graybeard said: The issue is never the issue.
2) The situation cannot be forced into the light in and of itself with any expectation of conclusion.
3) The pain body is very slick. It works on ALL of the information (especially that which you do not see) and takes the pieces that best justify it's own existence.
4) Emotion is a brief window into the deeper self. If each of us opens that window defenselessly we may find the wisdom we all seek.
5) This is not a crisis. It is an opportunity.
6) Amputation is a quick fix and cannot be construed as 'healing'. It also delays the inevitable personal journey through the dark nature of ourselves that we all must face. Use it to grow. That being said, we must also be aware of the ambiguous black mole that resists the process, in which case, removal is called for... but not prior to allowing the opportunity to change.

Carmody
2nd March 2011, 15:55
when you have system that at appears to be flowing and working, it is essential to make sure it is not stagnation --- if the lack of stagnation is the overall desire.

The other side of it is... one has to excise the problematic components that disturb the flow. Decisions need to be made. Or at least tried on for size. This moon indicates energies. We're stepping into the energy period again, and not all of it is good. As moon/eclipse cycles/energies go, they have faces, directions, etc.

Think back to the original interview and the original release and this pulse (pair- dark and full moon) will have components of it that are shared.

right now, we are in the dark cycle, which was 'release' of the interview , Jan 01 (three days before the full moon) . December 18th was the full moon (3 days before the dark of the moon).

Whatever happened here yesterday is like the release of the interview and it's flow (public open)...and what initiated it started 2 weeks ago (plus one day) (15 days back- and it was dark/hidden)

Yoda
2nd March 2011, 15:56
My alarm has been gently ringing for a few weeks now.[/QUOTE]

In the final stretch, ALL we have is our "alarm". No councillor, friend, forum, can replace the acuracy of our gut feeling.
Pierre

jorr lundstrom
2nd March 2011, 15:57
Yes Nick, we are very aware about wot you are talking about. Dont think we are

unaffected in our little cottage. Lot of funny and not so funny things happening

all the time. But its just expected. If you stick your neck out, there is always someone

who goes for it. Wots happening right now is no joke. And I fret its just the beginning. :faint:

ace
2nd March 2011, 15:59
just a thought
how many people will leave here and join charles site.
the master of manipulation,stated he was sent to split bill and kerry.
next avalon?
how many people have left already.
how many people said they may leave soon.
is there a connection?

He gave the rules of engagement right from the beginning. I will bring him into my confidence, then I will totally discredit him. They smiled.

No body's left 4\5 people on ice, out the picture, cool down, reflection time.
Lets keep this in perspective.

Lets not make a drama out of a blip

Ace

Isostool
2nd March 2011, 15:59
Post removed ... because it felt right....

13th Warrior
2nd March 2011, 16:00
My calling out Tone3Jaguar (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?10551-Why-I-am-leaving-this-forum&p=90182&viewfull=1#post90182) for using a pendulum to assess Wade Frazier's information as '11% accurate' was fully justified. Do take a moment to visit.

Bill,

Here is a quote of yours from the old forum. 03-04-2010 - not even a year ago.

http://projectavalon.net/forum/showpost.php?p=247817&postcount=24



I would just like to say that this individual Jake Simpson / John Burns comes up 23% factually accurate when I dowse it. Then when I ask if he is an agent it comes up YES.

I'd say that you're 100% correct.

I'm impressed... tell us what else you get on anything else that comes to mind (Seriously)

I'm not picking a fight here or anything, but tone3jaguar was basically a nice guy on this forum and I think this whole matter should be left alone now. However, I cant sit on my hands while I see him continually characterised as stupid - he was anything but stupid and he was sincere about his method and gave full disclosure, accepting that he could be wrong. He did not set out to smear your friend - he simply reported his findings.

I am not arguing about what you felt about his post on his forum - I may well have been angry too and would have argued my case.

By you perpetuating this here in this thread I feel forced to point this out - again.

John..

I also witnessed this exchange...

Bill,

How about a retort?

Brodie75
2nd March 2011, 16:01
EDIT: Sorry i posted this while i was only on page 6 :o


I have to say that i am only new here, but i feel quite sad today.
I'm still not sure exactly what was behind it all but it was hard to read about all the hurt people are feeling.

I don't know if Bill did the right thing, it would have been a hard decision and not one i'd have liked to make.
Hopefully people will learn from this and Avalon will become stronger for it.

The main thing i got from it was that secrecey can be like a poison. It can cause paranoiar, hurt feelings and separation.
This site as far as i understand it is here to dispel and make transparent as much as we are able and hopefully we can succeed.

My love to you all :hug:

Northern Boy
2nd March 2011, 16:01
--------

Amen to that. I have asked Richard to leave the forum. It is no longer appropriate that he holds the position he has done for quite a long while. I here ask Celine to leave with him and to take their energies elsewhere. I am making this call, and the call is mine alone, and I believe that the forum will now settle down to a significant degree in the days and weeks to come.

Best of luck with that it is only beginning and it was not Rich`s fault despit what you want to believe Bill

None of the other moderators have been involved in this decision, although I know that some of them are in full agreement with me. Others will protest: an understandable result of conflict of loyalties based on long friendship - and they may also leave. That is all fine.

Flush the toilet again and start over how many groups of mods has this happened too now Bill?

There are no bad people here. Only incompatibilities, human frailty in various forms, and strong differences of opinion that make it impossible for the continuity of a functioning team as currently structured. The world will continue, and so will Avalon, which is larger than any individual.

They seemed to be doing the Job they were signed up for just fine. Do those individuals include you ?

I want to thank Richard for his hard work and commitment to the forum over a long period of time, which probably feels to him even longer. He is a good man, and he snapped.

And i would have too Bill no one would be allowed to do that type of thing to my wife and get away with it . You seem to be endorsing that type of behavior that Celine had to endure

On my part, the final breakdown of trust happened when it was brought to my attention that he had shared with the other moderators that he intended to leave with a tell-all post that would be very deliberately negative and destructive. That may still come, but if it does, the vindictiveness that powers it will be transparent.

IT may very well as other forums will no doubt publish it and it will find its way back here . Transparent Bill LOL you want to know my feeling on transparency here at Avalon ? I think not


What is there to be afraid of if you have done nothing wrong? It looks here as though this may be your motivation in asking him to leave . I do not blame him for his reaction mod hat on or off I would have done the same . He has shown his ability to remain cool . You are also not with out your faults Bill and have lost control on many occasions many i know of that you are unaware of . There was no need to mention Tone. The poster questioning your decision did not use his name YOU did bringing it to light again was it called for ? I think not and if it happened on a different web site ...... Really what business is it of yours . If some discussed it here well thats what forums are for . Just look at what your actions have cause here at this forum lately. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone

I told him, when I spoke with him on the phone a few hours ago, that the call was his whether to leave with dignity - or to leave with negativity, bitterness, and a fully destructive action. He said he would indeed make that call, and ended the conversation. I hope that he makes the correct decision, for the sake of his own karma.

I will terminate their accounts in 24 hours from now.

I thank Richard sincerely here for his many hours of commitment to make the world a better place in this particular way in which he has been able to contribute. The pressures he has been under have been near-impossible to manage or balance. He has been torn in half with his fierce loyalty to his wife Celine, and his equally fierce loyalty to myself and the forum. They could not reasonably coexist in one person.

Yet you put those pressures on him did you not so you could do other things and now you throw him to the curb for doing what you asked. Its kind of like God creating an imperfect species (humans) and then blaming them for their imperfections

Celine, like many of us, has her own internal battles to wage and her personal mountains to climb. But this forum is no longer the appropriate venue for that to be conducted in public view.

Do make me go there Bill

The pressure Richard was under erupted in so much suppressed anger that it is self-evident that he must take his leave. I have contacted the hosting company to change all the passwords to the server and elsewhere. I cannot risk a moment of angry insanity which would destroy the heartfelt co-creation of many thousands of people over a long year of human experience in all its richness. I regret that I felt obliged to take that protective step, but it was the right thing to do.

Its already happening you just refuse to see it

I regard all the moderators as my friends, and always have done. It's for them to choose whether to return my deep feeling of sincere fellowship. I expect a number of them to step down, and this is all fine. Beth has already done so, and I accepted her resignation, which she conveyed with all the dignity and grace that I would expect from her. I thank her here for her countless hours of hard work on behalf of you all, as I do Rich.

As I wrote above, the world continues. In the meantime, I will not see this forum polluted by negative emotion, smears, innuendoes, and unjustified personal attack. If we want to create a better world, it has to start here, with each of us personally and with the way we relate to others. While that construction job is in progress, there may be certain people who we exclude from the worksite. Ultimately, of course, we are all in this together.


It all depends on whose versions of the meaning of these words unjustified personal attack We are going by if they are yours you should define them so people are aware of them the biggest being unjustified. Because if we are going to go by the dictionary term I feel Richard was justified in his reaction yet you wish to fault him for doing so. sorry Bill just calling as I see it


.With my best wishes to everyone ~ Bill


The biggest problem with the Worm Tongue Thread was the implied action that Bill had GW`s back regardless of what the mod team decided .It gives the appearance that Bill would make decisions with out getting their input or informing them and i back the actions of both members being asked to leave in defending themselves

TWINNICK
2nd March 2011, 16:02
Something bigger is happening, not only here but everywhere. There has been a "overdrive" switch flipped on peoples emotions. A hightened sence of things! Something big is about to take place!


G'day'

Yep! I sense this as well, very much so, I must admit it worries me.

They probably turned up the frequency brain f##k machine, haarp is goin into overdrive and the galactic wave is boring down on us like a ton of bricks.

My head has been feeling a bit funny/foggy for 2 weeks now, special forces sent into Libya, Yemen has started to go off as well blaming USA gov'nt, HHmmmmm.

..Nick..

magicmanx
2nd March 2011, 16:02
just a thought
how many people will leave here and join charles site.
the master of manipulation,stated he was sent to split bill and kerry.
next avalon?
how many people have left already.
how many people said they may leave soon.
is there a connection?

He gave the rules of engagement right from the beginning. I will bring him into my confidence, then I will totally discredit him. They smiled.

Ah! my Darling Yoda,

Did you read the rules of how to tango?

Carrera
2nd March 2011, 16:05
Jorr writes:


I wrote a PM to Icecold. GW quoted me words for words from that PM in a post where she threatened me subtly.

One hour later that post was erased. But my woman read it too, so the post wasnt in my imagination.

When I mentioned it in a post she acted as if she didnt know wot I was talking about. And demanded that

I should declare myself when I returned from my time out. So maybye not totally innocent. By the way,

how do we know its a woman?

I did not send GW any of that information.

How did she get access to my emails?

Like I said earlier, its not MODS or ADMIN that are the problem with PMs.

Something/someone else is involved. And it ain't pretty.


BTW a MOD has closed my AI thread. I won't ask to have it re-opened. It is just another example of our strange invisible smurfs. Do they influence and organise thoughts here? Possibly.


There are 892 guests here at the moment, the silent majority. Welcome to you.

This forum is providing you with information and realities which you have not thought possible. This is one of the roles of this forum. It is here to help you wake up. Now help us. When you leave here, go and tell as many people as possible about what you find here, tell them about the real world that they live in and explain to them that they may be needed some time in the future to form a mass movement, to create a change on our enslaved planet.


Hi! Wasnt' this the time Jorr sent you a visitor message instead of PM? Visitor messages can be viewed by everyone.... Its (maybe?) on your profile/messages? (Not to defend anyones action, rather to explain)

Best Wishes Carrera

firstlook
2nd March 2011, 16:08
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?15414-Tension-in-the-air-good-and-not-good.

Hawkwind
2nd March 2011, 16:13
I call on anyone with what they think to be significant information regarding Charles to share it openly on the forum.

I question why they would not have already done so.

I don't have information, but I do have an observation. Several people who joined the forum after Charles arrival have seemed intentionally disruptive. My guess is that they are paid agent provocateurs. If Charles is who he says he is, it seems to me he would have the wherewithal to identify and put an end to these efforts should he so desire. For whatever reason, that hasn't happened. Draw your own conclusions.

jorr lundstrom
2nd March 2011, 16:14
Jorr writes:


I wrote a PM to Icecold. GW quoted me words for words from that PM in a post where she threatened me subtly.

One hour later that post was erased. But my woman read it too, so the post wasnt in my imagination.

When I mentioned it in a post she acted as if she didnt know wot I was talking about. And demanded that

I should declare myself when I returned from my time out. So maybye not totally innocent. By the way,

how do we know its a woman?

I did not send GW any of that information.

How did she get access to my emails?

Like I said earlier, its not MODS or ADMIN that are the problem with PMs.

Something/someone else is involved. And it ain't pretty.


BTW a MOD has closed my AI thread. I won't ask to have it re-opened. It is just another example of our strange invisible smurfs. Do they influence and organise thoughts here? Possibly.


There are 892 guests here at the moment, the silent majority. Welcome to you.

This forum is providing you with information and realities which you have not thought possible. This is one of the roles of this forum. It is here to help you wake up. Now help us. When you leave here, go and tell as many people as possible about what you find here, tell them about the real world that they live in and explain to them that they may be needed some time in the future to form a mass movement, to create a change on our enslaved planet.


Hi! Wasnt' this the time Jorr sent you a visitor message instead of PM? Visitor messages can be viewed by everyone.... Its (maybe?) on your profile/messages? (Not to defend anyones action, rather to explain)

Best Wishes Carrera

No. it wasnt that occasion.;)

Yoda
2nd March 2011, 16:15
Injustice disturbs me and I, for one, am thankful things are being brought into the light of day from the darkness that's been operating here.[/QUOTE]

"The Powers that were" made an all out gambit for control, they encountered something that is highly prized, human emotions in the form of LOVE and mutual respect.
They never expected Bill and Kerry, to come back together, climb on top of the mountain, gain perspective, and get back into their lives. Now they(Bill & Kerry) bring their new combined energy, into this consciousness experiment. The ante has just gone up another notch.

Dennis Jonathan
2nd March 2011, 16:18
Thank you Bill for your attempt at bringing order from chaos.

Regardless of if your decision was the perfect choice, I respect your doing something all the same. I am of the mind that a leader must take action, and then stand behind thier decision. The group can only discern the intentions behind the decision, and then choose to take the personal actions in response that resonate with thier internal sense of right and wrong.

I believe that I am a fairly objective, logical and direct person. I am not prone to emotional outbursts, and rash decisions. That being said, the events that took place yesterday disgusted me and I decided to take a 24 hour break from the forums. I can see others, myself possibly included, having taken permanent leave from the forum had the situation not been dealt with.

Regardless of the individuals involved, the term you used "negative energies" was spot on. A virus can inhabit any host. The intentions of the host rarely have any influence on the spreading of the disease.

There is always opportunity for redemption and rehabilitation. I truly hope all involved undergo the cleansing necessary to rejoin the ground crew in the future.

Respectfully,


Dennis.

SKIBADABOMSKI
2nd March 2011, 16:20
To whom is behind all this mess, well I hope your happy with yourselves.

http://i54.tinypic.com/11lpz0y.jpg

Lord Sidious
2nd March 2011, 16:20
Hong Kong is china...

and this CEO is Quebecois...

The point was that Bill...Knows Richard very well...and knows why it came to this.

Richard rarely acts out like that..he did to honor me.

Bill knows this.

If Bill had spoken to me the way he did (and still is to others) to my face..Richard would have punched him..

and ANY real man i know...would have understood why....even if maybe they dont condone violence..

I dont care how ****ed up i am... you do not ..take down a mans woman like that and not expect a reaction.

And you don't pick on the woman to provoke a reaction from the man, that can then be used against him.
There are times for words and times for swords, getting them confused isn't good, but messing with a mans family?
That is sword time.


I think if Lee-B had a voice in this conversation, it's possible he might say that he too believed he was protecting his honour.

That is entirely possible.
The thing is, aiming at Celine to get Richard isn't honourable and in real life would be a challenge to a duel.
Full stop.
There can never be compromise on points of principle.







Bill, will you be allowing back "GypsyWoman"?

I'll answer that question indirectly. One of the things I would like to know as a fact (one way or another) is whether or not Gypsy Woman was going nuts with justified rage and indignation because she knew for sure that her PMs were being read in the name of 'investigation'.

Compelled to post...damning sometimes feeling this way..i apologize..

but the pvt messages (and skype and email) i saw about gypsy woman were ALL from a member who chose to share them because he feared she had very bad intentions towards YOU ...AVALON..and all of us....


Just because it is possible to read PMs doesnt mean it is done... and Bill has succesfully distanced himself from any doubt that he knew about this so his credibility is sustained. Good Job.

Richard works for a businessman from Hong Kong, as his right hand man (from techie to construction).... Just yesterday i stood there as a ceo was telling me how trust worthy my husband is...

This is not in defense of my husbands heart..but in honor of it.

Loyalty above everything except honor


my husband is the most honorable man i know.

Dear Celine, please do not misunderstand me, I do not doubt Richard's loyalty or integrity to you or the CEO of the corporation in Japan that he works for. However, do you think that if this CEO happened to see Richard's behavior last night, he would be impressed? I think not. In fact, the Japanese abhor emotional displays like that, it would be severely frowned upon. Actually, I don't think the Japanese like frowning either, but you get the point.

I really do commend you in defending your husband, and I know you are sincere in your apology. What about Richard? Does he feel his behaviour was acceptable?

Mouse

In Japan, they don't like emotional displays, this is true, but remember, this is also the same nation that in their history, honour was all.
To lose honour was to be a dead man walking.
To stand and fight on a point of honour wasn't a good thing or bad thing, it was the mark of the man.
By the way, did I tell you how much I enjoy Japanese culture and history? Excellent people.
Oh, and the food? Damn, love it.
Except they don't have carrots, organic or not.

Sidious, thanks again for making me laugh. What's with you and carrots eh? If ever I were to meet you, be sure, I'll bring along some carrots :)

Yes honour is everything in that culture, but for the Japanese to show emotion it would cause them to lose face or honour. I do wonder if they scream silently inside?

Mouse x

No worries Mouse, I like carrots, but don't sharpen em and try and insert em into me!
Not a good survival strategy.
On your point about Japan, they do indeed hold it inside, hence all the suicides.
That is partially why they now have rooms in the workplace where you can go and beat the crap out of a dummy.




In Japan, they don't like emotional displays, this is true, but remember, this is also the same nation that in their history, honour was all.
To lose honour was to be a dead man walking.
To stand and fight on a point of honour wasn't a good thing or bad thing, it was the mark of the man.
By the way, did I tell you how much I enjoy Japanese culture and history? Excellent people.
Oh, and the food? Damn, love it.
Except they don't have carrots, organic or not.
Lord Sidious, you are being very funny! For the record, though,
we do have some fine carrot dishes, like ninjin kimpira (seasoned and sauteed carrots), yum!


Thanks for that bit of info, I will check that out next time I am in a Japanese restaurant.
Damn, but I love that food.



Anyone who wants to tell their story should be able to come here...IMO
We have to use our discernment

This is not a dumping place, it's a clearing house for TRUTH.
Pierre

Whilst what you say is true, what is THE truth?
Oh and we are all men and women, not gods.
We have people here going through great changes in their self, we have to expect the ego to try and fight that.
That doesn't mean we have to have a pit for people to fight to the death, but it is good to try and figure out what the symptoms are pointing at as a cause.
We have to stop the bleeding, or otherwise, all the conjecture is a waste of time.
Yes, the patient may be cold, but if they continue to bleed, they will be a lot colder.
Oh and for a long time too.



Ok, so now that we have discussed the ins and outs of this over and over, the question for all of us is this;
Where do we go from here? How do we fix this issue and move an? And most importantly, what procedures can we put in place to prevent this happening again?

Northern Boy
2nd March 2011, 16:25
I don't have information, but I do have an observation. Several people who joined the forum after Charles arrival have seemed intentionally disruptive. My guess is that they are paid agent provocateurs. If Charles is who he says he is, it seems to me he would have the wherewithal to identify and put an end to these efforts should he so desire. For whatever reason, that hasn't happened. Draw your own conclusions.

Point them out maybe some are just doing it for free how do you know? Maybe there is really more going on behind the scenes that you are unaware of and it will never be made known to you . I have a good idea of what I believe is going on and I plan to let it run its course . The snare it set and the rabbits are running the trail soon , supper will be on the table

Yoda
2nd March 2011, 16:25
This was an easy and successful op in my opinion, not worthy of the score it racked up... And WE all lose, again. Nothing new under the sun...

I believe we all win! We have just lived through an all out assault, on the enclave, by "the powers that were". There are bruises, but on the eternal time frame, we all get to play again.
Pierre

jorr lundstrom
2nd March 2011, 16:26
Goodbye for some hours all 216 on this thread. We are going to get some food

and wont be back in acouple of hours. Have a jolly good time. See you.

By the way, its those small black thing that are the letters. LMAO

Northern Boy
2nd March 2011, 16:26
To whom is behind all this mess, well I hope your happy with yourselves.

http://i54.tinypic.com/11lpz0y.jpg

are you blaming Swanny ?

Beth
2nd March 2011, 16:28
Admins, (Richard, Beth, Luke, Fredkc)

have you ever read private emails of members that have not otherwise been passed to you through the normal PM system, or that were posted on the forum by others, or were posted on the forum in the moderator private discussion areas or that were sent to you as a result of someone using the abuse reporting system ?

Simple question.



No, I have not. Frankly, I wouldn't even know how to (nor want to) and really would have been too busy to.

sleepy
2nd March 2011, 16:29
I am curious if all of or half of the people that are fighting chose to be or are connected to the list of 18?

Yoda
2nd March 2011, 16:31
This happening now is a P#ss in Mississippi. But wot will happen the day when the flow

of energy is at a level so that telepathy spreads lika a virus? Wot will happen then if a lot of people

have double agendas and a lot of not exactly tasteful secrets? ;)

It has been said that when all the little dirty secrets of the mind are out, a lot of people will choose to die rather than face reality.
Pierre

Ahkenaten
2nd March 2011, 16:32
It seems to me that what we have here is a crisis in Trust. Without trust, there is no "community." It also seems to me that the PA Forum has been under sustained attack for some time. Cracks are showing in the superstructure. Stress is revealed in interpersonal conflicts exposing the weaknesses in systems and personalities..............the water is flooding in. Water is the most destructive force on a building. The "architectural/engineering" problem is how to prevent the entry of destructive force while at the same time preserving the radical openness required to build a "virtual" community.

This is new uncharted territory here. Participants advance a masque behind which they operate. True intentions are not obvious, transparency does not yet exist in this medium.

Maybe the thing ("cup") has to break in order for the necessary lessons to be learned on all sides, unfortunate but perhaps true. I hope not.

With respect to humans and use of language - eventually the very language - even expressed symbolically - reveals intent. There is more going on here than meets the eye.

I, for one, would NOT relish seeing the Jolly Rodger victory flag hoisted on this battle field.

Can we make peace with ourselves and each other? How do we effectively resist the dark forces and remain fully human?

This goes well beyond the individuals and the groups and reflects activities occurring on other levels though mudane forces are surely at work here.

Sunny d
2nd March 2011, 16:32
To whom is behind all this mess, well I hope your happy with yourselves.

http://i54.tinypic.com/11lpz0y.jpg

are you blaming Swanny ?

LMAO@northern boy.....! Poor old Swanny

Northern Boy
2nd March 2011, 16:33
this happening now is a p#ss in mississippi. But wot will happen the day when the flow

of energy is at a level so that telepathy spreads lika a virus? Wot will happen then if a lot of people

have double agendas and a lot of not exactly tasteful secrets? ;)

it has been said that when all the little dirty secrets of the mind are out, a lot of people will choose to die rather than face reality.
Pierre

i`m ready where is the line forming

Rocky_Shorz
2nd March 2011, 16:36
the night the worm started I clicked on the thread to see what was going on and lost my net connection until the following day...

I'm sorry all of this happened because everyone involved is a friend...

Dorok
2nd March 2011, 16:37
Stop The Wheel!! Only YOU can... http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?15395-Worm-Tongue&p=161309&viewfull=1#post161309

Potential for rant imminent...

This whole issue is all about EGO. Without EGO, there can be no personal insults. Without EGO, no one has to defend 'honor' of themselves or anyone else.

I'm really objecting to the viewpoint that a man is honorable in responding to perceived threats/insults/etc. to his wife (see the possessive there?) when he uses the same tactics as the perceived offender. (I shudder to even consider the deeper implications that a woman here cannot defend herself.) A PERSON is honorable in deflecting threats/insults/etc. A response to threats/insults/etc. is only honoring the threats/insults/etc.

This is even more ridiculous when you consider that we are not even in physical proximity to the threats/insults/etc. In other words, these are just WORDS. EGO responds to this first, and when EGO is activated, rational thought is relegated. Stick & stones, folks.

This is a primitive, animal instinct. Let's EVOLVE!! (before someone starts throwing feces!)

Northern Boy
2nd March 2011, 16:38
stop the wheel!! Only you can... http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?15395-worm-tongue&p=161309&viewfull=1#post161309

potential for rant imminent...

This whole issue is all about ego. Without ego, there can be no personal insults. Without ego, no one has to defend 'honor' of themselves or anyone else.

I'm really objecting to the viewpoint that a man is honorable in responding to perceived threats/insults/etc. To his wife (see the possessive there?) when he uses the same tactics as the perceived offender. (i shudder to even consider the deeper implications that a woman here cannot defend herself.) a person is honorable in deflecting threats/insults/etc. A response to threats/insults/etc. Is only honoring the threats/insults/etc.

This is even more ridiculous when you consider that we are not even in physical proximity to the threats/insults/etc. In other words, these are just words. Ego responds to this first, and when ego is activated, rational thought is relegated. Stick & stones, folks.

This is a primitive, animal instinct. Let's evolve!! (before someone starts throwing feces!)


with out ego you will die it is also a self defense mechanism so duck

USING YOUR analogy would be alright to defend your son`s or daughters honor if they were abused ? Why let your ego think it would be ok because they are younger ?

TWINNICK
2nd March 2011, 16:38
LOL. It may not have anything to do with Admin or mods.

Be aware that there are specialised people or AIs who have infiltrated this forum.

Edit: to suggest a far greater problem that email security breaches. What I'm saying is that it is not ADMIN and it is not MODS. Speculative at the moment, Edit

This is not a fantasy I'm afraid.

Ok I was going to sit this one out because I thought that Bill would get it for what it was. Thankfully Icecold has broached the subject so I feel I can support it here.

So far no one has taken into account the influences of mind manipulation or hyperdimesional reality. We are pretty awake indivduals on here, some much more than others; however being awake to the world situation does not mean we are awake to our true selves, our psyche, the influence of existential attack as individuals and collectively. It's a fact.

They attack through us, they use what is our weakest link, that which is UNCONSCIOUS in us and protected by the ego. Believe me, when a strategic person is triggered there is very often little that person can do about it. We see it over and over again, both in our personal lives and on the world stage and everywhere in between.

From my heart I hope that Bill will not allow this attack to have its effect, its time to SEE when the poison is injected and who is used as the vector.
I have to go out right now but I wanted to get this down now before it is too late.

This work must go on.
g


G'day,

UUmmmm if you go back to my post (and some other members) you will find that there is referance to the manipulation of the ptw and their mind control, and we know about the (cray) and psyops crap imposed on us.

..Nick..

Yes nick, very good.

But what are you doing about it besides talking or knowing.

G'day'

OK Icecold, what answer would you like to hear and why do you question me in this fashion?

Do you think you have a right to question me?

Are you the person who has the right to question people on Avalon or is this you just trying to get a rise out of me for some reason?

I never paid much attention before but are you male or female, if you don't mind me asking that is.

And I don't wish to derail the thread, just curios thats all.

..Nick..

bluestflame
2nd March 2011, 16:39
many a lesson to be learnt ...I know i am

ulli
2nd March 2011, 16:39
Lord Sidious: "Where do we go from here? How do we fix this issue and move an? And most importantly, what procedures can we put in place to prevent this happening again? "


Ulli: It may well happen again.
Such is life.
The invisible hand is mostly friendly but sometimes
IT throws a monkey wrench into the works, and watches what happens next.
Everyone gets their lessons that way. And the higher plan stays on track.

Celine and Richard might soon be off to what they might consider better horizons.
And good luck to them.
If they badmouth what happened here
they will attract more of the same negative energies to their lives
until they learn to reorganize their priority list.

I for one am looking forward to an even more successful disclosure venue
here at Project Avalon.
Bill being a Pisces may always have the odd denial issues,
but hey, thats his path.
I sympathize, being inclined that way myself.
Also kudos to Kerry at Project Camelot.

And Avalon will go on, with or without Celine and Richard,
even with or without Charles.
I don't want to deny him the nurturing he will surely find here
at Bill's place, but as far as I'm concerned
it's Bill Ryan who has my (not so secret) vote.

Ulli, raising her hand....

...anyone else?

Dorok
2nd March 2011, 16:40
with out ego you will die it is also a self defense mechanism so duck

That doesn't mean EGO has to control you.

buffski
2nd March 2011, 16:42
"Round, like a circle in a spiral
Like a wheel within a wheel.
Never ending or beginning,
On an ever spinning wheel
Like a snowball down a mountain
Or a carnaval balloon
Like a carousell that's turning
Running rings around the moon

Like a clock whose hands are sweeping
Past the minutes on it's face
And the world is like an apple
Whirling silently in space
Like the circles that you find
In the windmills of your mind"

this will 'come' again, as it 'came' again.....(Snuggly Hugs to All and One today)...breathe and HOLD 'this space'...STOP...then join the dance again...from your CENTRE.
a one-two-three-four..............the play might commence.