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Gestalt
28th April 2010, 01:54
There is no true freewill in atheism, or Judaeo-Christian religions. Only in Buddhism, Hindu philosophy and other brands of free-thought with the concept of reincarnation can there be true freewill. Let me ask you these simple questions:





Did you choose your gender in this lifetime?



Did you choose who your parents were going to be, did they choose you?



Did you choose what environment you were born into, what your physical characteristics are, etc.?


Unless you can answer yes to these questions you do not believe in true freewill. For there is much you did not choose of your own will.

Only in reincarnation theory can you have true free will. For the soul pre-exists life on earth and so chooses a path of development that benefits the soul most, at its given stage in evolution. Of its own freewill the soul chooses a limited framework so that it can experience a given reality within it and thereby grow. The soul chooses temporary loss of total freewill power of its own freewill.

Now this leads into one of humanities greatest mysteries and possibly one of the most difficult things to rationalize given the atheist/Judeo-Christian framework most people are coming from. That mystery is: why are some people born sick while others healthy? Why are some people born rich while others poor? In Judaeo-Christian religions God chooses for you, overriding your freewill. In atheism this occurs by random probability and thus overriding your possible freewill.

Now in reincarnation theory people actually choose to be born poor, sick etc. Souls choose such a path so that they can learn from the experiences. They choose such a path because it benefits their overall spiritual evolution. Without anything to overcome the soul simply would not grow. Some of the most difficult lifetimes offer the greatest potential for growth.

The general purpose of incarnating on planet earth is to learn about emotion and sexuality. Thatís right earth is a SCHOOL for sexuality and emotions. This is the unique experience that earth offers in that it enables souls to learn how to use these tools in order to create. Thus you can easily see why majority of souls who incarnate on this planet do not choose to incarnate into a mansion lifestyle and sit around and eat grapes and drink wine all day. Itís through lifeís challenges specifically in relation to others where human souls individually stand to gain the greatest amount of spiritual growth knowledge and wisdom.

Individual soul characteristics are also important. Why would souls pick places like Darfur, or a mentally retarded body? Well they have their reasons. The greatest adversity also provides the greatest potential for growth. Some souls are rather gung-ho, and pick really challenging lives spiritually and others prefer to take it easier. But nonetheless souls can not grow unless they have something to overcome. And souls choose to incarnate into situations that best match their own personal stage of evolution. For everyone has their own highly personal and specialized growth pattern.

For a moment, temporarily suspend whatever beliefs you may have and attempt to figure out why YOU may have chosen the life you have right now in order to learn the things you have chosen. Remember this most likely has something to do with your emotions, ego and sexuality. See how this impacts your life knowing full well you were the ultimate chooser of virtually almost everything that has happened to you. Remember the soulís intelligence and wisdom is far superior to that of your own current limited illusionary perceived self. The soul knows full well what it gets itself into and all possible things that may happen to it. Under such a framework it is pretty difficult to build a victim identity for yourself knowing how much you actually chose out of your own true freewill!


Now on a side note what is also important to the discussion of freewill is relativity and its apparent limitations. For example, you cannot at the current time morph into a bird fly and fly away. You can imagine this but you cannot actually do this within the current relative physical framework which you live in. People take this physical framework for granted often thinking thatís all there is. But you could be no further from the truth. There exist many other dimensions in which the physical limitations you experience here on planet earth donít exist. In these other dimensions you are free to create and do whatever it is that you wish and imagine. Your only limitation being that of your own creativity! You could create planets, stars, people, places, things. You could morph into whatever shape or thing you wanted. Now because such a reality has so much freedom and true freewill it cannot interact with those of others unless you choose to, and the Ďotherí also chooses too.

Now you may be curious to see what Ďothersí are possible of creating and Ďothersí experience, so you may form a contractual type of relationship where you can experience each otherís self-created realities and thus learn more about others and they about you and so you BOTH expand your potential creative knowledge. You can see why it is to your mutual benefit to interact with other forms of creative identities for the overall purpose of gaining more experience and creativity thereby evolving on every possible level.

Now this is quite simplistic, and things get much more complex. Large groups of consciousness with likeminded creative goals coalesce and form Ďfamiliesí. They then choose to create set frameworks which offer experiences unique to that particular framework. Experiences are often limited by frameworks and this is something you must understand. In order for our current physical reality to have any kind of mutual coherence among other creative consciousness some self imposed limiting framework must exist! This is an undeniable fact of life, which makes physical life as you and me experience it possible.

Imagine the havoc that would be wrecked if everyoneís imagination manifested everything they thought of right on the spot! Physical reality would quickly lose its coherence and thus the physical experience in relation to others as you experience it now would simply not be possible and cease to exist thus undoing the very reason the framework was created for in the first place!

Under the reincarnational framework birth is usually a more painful process for the soul than death. Death is a letting go of a dense physical framework and embracing of the truer freer state of being, where thought manifestation happens much quicker. Birth on the other hand is an intensely limiting experience as the soul begins to limit and confine its avenues of creation and perception. The loss of power and control can be quite frightening initially, but is understood as a necessity to live in our framework. On the other hand people that choose to commit suicide and end their physical realm contract prematurely often do so in the hope of self-annihilation in order to easy their pain. But it is important to understand that thoughts and emotions in the next dimension up from the physical dimension is much more powerful. Such souls find themselves in even more pain, for that is what their thoughts are manifesting for them without the luxury of the physical dimension to act as a grounding force for that pain. There is no escape from the emotional and spiritual lessons one has chosen to learn, circumstances will often repeat themselves until the soul learns its lessons. Itís important to understand the soul wants this for itself, that YOU want this for yourself.

Thus the temporary suspension of true and utter freewill must be embraced, for it offers unique creative experiences that cannot be experienced in any other way, especially in that of relation to millions and billions of other conscious creative entities.

Check out my other threads for more insights on reality as a construct: Universe as God (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?1487-The-Universe-as-God-A-Challenge-to-your-Imagination), Nonlocal Universe (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?1393-Nonlocal-Universe-Reality-as-a-Dream)

Purpose of Reincarnation Case example:

ďI was once a mother with twelve children. Ignorant in terms of education, far from beautiful, particularly in later years, with a wild temper and raucous voice. This was around Jerusalem in the sixth century. The children had many fathers. I did my best to provide for them.

My name was Marshaba. We lived wherever we could, squatting in doorways and, finally, all begging. Yet in existence, physical life had a contrast, a sharpness greater than any I had known. A crust of bread was far more delicious to me than any piece of cake, however well-frosted, had ever been in lives before.

When my children laughed I was overwhelmed with delight, and despite our privations, each morning was a triumphant surprise that we had not died in our sleep, that we had not succumbed to starvation. I chose that life deliberately, as each of you choose each of yours, and I did so because my previous lives had been too blasť. I was too cushioned. I no longer focused with clarity upon the truly spectacular physical delights and experiences that earth can provide.

Though I yelled at my children and screamed sometimes in rage against the elements, I was struck through with the magnificence of existence, and learned more about true spirituality than I ever did as a monk. This does not mean that poverty leads to truth, or that suffering is good for the soul. Many who shared those conditions with me learned little. It does mean that each of you choose life conditions what you have for your own purpose, knowing ahead of time where your weaknesses and strengths lie.

In the gestalt of my personality, as in your terms I lived later richer lives, that woman was alive again in meóas, for example, the child is alive in the adult, and filled with gratitude comparing later circumstances to the earlier existences. ď ~Seth Speaks, the eternal validity of the Soul

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On an interesting historical note Reincarnation used to be a part of Christianity up to 545AD! until it was systematically removed for the following reasons:

"There was a logical reason why the Emperor was opposed to the concept that all of mankind originally came from God and was returing to God via the cycle of birth and death. Justinian had been convinced by high ranking cardinals that it was not in the interest of the empire to allow Origen's writings to continue to be copied and distributed. A powerful group of Cardinalís and Bishopís explained that if every soul had once pre-existed with God, then Christ wasnít anything special to have come from God. These Cardinals convinced the Emperor that if people realized they were the children of God they might begin to believe they no longer needed an Emperor, or to pay taxes, or to obey the Holy Church. But since they reasoned that only Christ had come from God but God made brand new souls at the time of conception and only the Holy Church could bring these souls to God. Without the protection of the Empire or the guidance of the church, all people would be doomed to be forever cut off from God in Hell. This doctrine was very acceptabloe to the Emperor. Once Justinian understood the political danger inherent in Origenís teachings, the rest was simply an Emperor doing what was in his best interest.

The council, as instructed by the Emperor, produced fourteen new anathemas and the very first one condemned reincarnation and the concept that souls pre-existed with God." (Source (http://reluctant-messenger.com/reincarnation-pope.htm))

Teakai
28th April 2010, 04:08
There is no true freewill in atheism, or Judaeo-Christian religions. Only in Buddhism, Hindu philosophy and other brands of free-thought with the concept of reincarnation can there be true freewill. Let me ask you these simple questions:



Why can there be no free will in atheism?

Doesn't atheism simply mean a non belief in Gods or Deities? It did in the dictionary I looked in.
Theism means a belief in Gods or deities
and Agnostics don't really know if there is or not?

Does a person have to fit into one of these categories?

And if they do, then I'm an atheist who believes in reincarnation, in which case, atheist do have free will.

OK, now I'll go back and read the rest.

shiva777
28th April 2010, 04:15
freewill can only be truly free if the person with the "will" hasn't been conditioned to believe in certain things since birth....people think they have freewill but until you are free of all programming and conditioning TRUE freewill is only an illusion...you only have freewill inside your conditioned parameters

Gestalt
28th April 2010, 04:40
Does a person have to fit into one of these categories?

And if they do, then I'm an atheist who believes in reincarnation, in which case, atheist do have free will.

No, a person does not need to fit in any category. Hence i threw in "other brands of free-thought".
The vast majority of atheists do not believe in souls or reincarnation.
However, if you want to be an atheist and believe in reincarnation and therefore freewill, go for it! Just realize you are a rare cookie! :D

Teakai
28th April 2010, 05:02
No, a person does not need to fit in any category. Hence i threw in "other brands of free-thought".
The vast majority of atheists do not believe in souls or reincarnation.
However, if you want to be an atheist and believe in reincarnation and therefore freewill, go for it! Just realize you are a rare cookie! :D

LOL.

It's not about 'wanting' to be an atheist. I think labels are misleading and mean little. However, I am by dictionary definition an atheist, thus your theory in regard to atheists and freewill has holes. That which you stated as fact ie: "There is no true freewill in atheism" is not a fact.

:-)

Gestalt
28th April 2010, 05:18
However, I am by dictionary definition an atheist, thus your theory in regard to atheists and freewill has holes. That which you stated as fact ie: "There is no true freewill in atheism" is not a fact.

My apologies, It's meant to be more of a generalization rather than a strict fact.

Teakai
28th April 2010, 05:28
My apologies, It's meant to be more of a generalization rather than a strict fact.

No problem.


In regard to freewill however, doesn't that all depend on your perspective?
Isn't the Jew, or the Chrisitian or the atheist (the type who believe there is nothing after this life earthly life) aren't they making freewill choices daily?

Gestalt
28th April 2010, 05:40
In regard to freewill however, doesn't that all depend on your perspective?
Isn't the Jew, or the Chrisitian or the atheist (the type who believe there is nothing after this life earthly life) aren't they making freewill choices daily?

From Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_will):
"Free will is the purported ability of agents to make choices free from constraints. Historically, the constraint of dominant concern has been the metaphysical constraint of determinism. The opposing positions within that debate are metaphysical libertarianism, the claim that determinism is false and thus that free will exists; and hard determinism, the claim that determinism is true and thus that free will does not exist.

Both of these positions, which agree that causal determination is the relevant factor in the question of free will, are classed as incompatibilists. Those who deny that determinism is relevant are classified as compatibilists, and offer various alternative explanations of what constraints are relevant, such as physical constraints (e.g. chains or imprisonment), social constraints (e.g. threat of punishment or censure), or psychological constraints (e.g. compulsions or phobias).

The principle of free will has religious, ethical, and scientific implications. For example, in the religious realm, free will implies that an omnipotent divinity does not assert its power over individual will and choices. In ethics, it may hold implications regarding whether individuals can be held morally accountable for their actions. The question of free will has been a central issue since the beginning of philosophical thought."
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Freewill is a VERY tricky subject to discuss in that many people have different perspectives in how they use and understand the word. Sadly this often leads to serious communication breakdown and misunderstanding. So there are some limits to the use of language here in discussing these concepts.


My short answer to your question is, Yes people make 'pseudo' freewill choices every day regardless of their faith. However all choices within physical reality are constrained by said reality, hence the appearance of free choice is somewhat of an illusion. Freewill with constraints isn't really freewill in the true sense of the word. Haha, I hope that makes sense.

Teakai
28th April 2010, 06:30
My short answer to your question is, Yes people make 'pseudo' freewill choices every day regardless of their faith. However all choices within physical reality are constrained by said reality, hence the appearance of free choice is somewhat of an illusion. Freewill with constraints isn't really freewill in the true sense of the word. Haha, I hope that makes sense.

What are 'pseudo' free will choices?
No matter what our religion of non religion or beliefs the truth is the truth - either we all have freewill, or we all don't.
You say Christianity doesn't based on the view of free choice reincarnation. Christanity says it's all about freewill.
So, what's freewill?
And who has the truth?

The way I see it, whether you are making your choices from a higher mindstate or from a lower mindstate, they are still your choices and you will be accountable for them.

Gestalt
28th April 2010, 06:47
What are 'pseudo' free will choices?


Let me try to break this down very simply.
For example, you can choose to buy a red car or a blue car. Thus you have a certain freedom to make a choice in what colour of car you buy.
However you are CONSTRAINED by the choices available, you can't buy a orange &purple speckled car because the dealer doesn't have one. (for arguments sake)

Thus you can imagine options for your choices that you can't actually physically choose. Hence your CHOICES are LIMITED and CONSTRAINED to what is physically possible and available.
Try as hard as you might finding a flying pink elephant to take you around town probably wont happen. You can imagine this, but cant really chose it, due to obvious constraints in our physical reality. This is how your freedom to choose is LIMITED and thus your freewill is only 'pseudo' in that sense.

Teakai
28th April 2010, 07:16
For example, you can choose to buy a red car or a blue car. Thus you have a certain freedom to make a choice in what colour of car you buy.
However you are CONSTRAINED by the choices available, you can't buy a orange &purple speckled car because the dealer doesn't have one. (for arguments sake)

Thus you can imagine options for your choices that you can't actually physically choose. Hence your CHOICES are LIMITED and CONSTRAINED to what is physically possible and available.
Try as hard as you might finding a flying pink elephant to take you around town probably wont happen. You can imagine this, but cant really chose it, due to obvious constraints in our physical reality. This is how your freedom to choose is LIMITED and thus your freewill is only 'pseudo' in that sense.

Well, yeah. But doesn't that apply to all of us depite our belief or non- belief system? It doesn't just apply to atheists or Judeo Christians. Buddhists and Hindus can't choose a flying pink elephant to take them around either.

Gestalt
28th April 2010, 07:51
Well, yeah. But doesn't that apply to all of us depite our belief or non- belief system? It doesn't just apply to atheists or Judeo Christians. Buddhists and Hindus can't choose a flying pink elephant to take them around either.

No matter our belief systems as long as you are physically incarnate there are constrictions on freewill. However in a belief system which presupposes conscious sentient existence in higher dimensional planes, those same constraints don't exist in higher dimensional planes thus giving a greater degree of freewill.Depending on how and if you believe in those higher planes of pre & post physical incarnation you believe in dimensions with less constraints. So for example prior to being born on earth you could ride your pink elephant in a 4th or 5th dimensional existence.

Teakai
28th April 2010, 08:34
No matter our belief systems as long as you are physically incarnate there are constrictions on freewill.

I agree.


However in a belief system which presupposes conscious sentient existence in higher dimensional planes, those same constraints don't exist in higher dimensional planes thus giving a greater degree of freewill.[/b]Depending on how and if you believe in those higher planes of pre & post physical incarnation you believe in dimensions with less constraints. So for example prior to being born on earth you could ride your pink elephant in a 4th or 5th dimensional existence.

Yes. You can ride your elephant in that dimension (should your belief be correct) As can the Christian when he realises that he had the wrong belief and returns to the 5th dimension.

But perhaps that freewill on the 5th dimension that allows a person to ride their pink elephant and allows them to choose their sex, circumstance and parents and map their earthly lives, removes that free will on the earthly plane at the human level.

Did you really use your free will to make any of the seemingly free choices you made today – or do you only think you did?
Or was every move you made arranged by a you that exists in a higher dimension?

My point is – at whatever level of existence we make the choice.
The Christian or atheist believes he has the free will to choose (In the 5th dimension he already used his freewill)

But if your belief is wrong and the Christian’s is correct, then freewill is now and you don’t get to the 5th dimension unless you use it to serve God.

So everyone believes they have free will at some stage.

Gestalt
28th April 2010, 17:11
But perhaps that freewill on the 5th dimension that allows a person to ride their pink elephant and allows them to choose their sex, circumstance and parents and map their earthly lives, removes that free will on the earthly plane at the human level.
Precisely my point. Incarnating on earth is an abdication of a degree of freewill from a place of a greater degree of freewill.


Did you really use your free will to make any of the seemingly free choices you made today Ė or do you only think you did?
Or was every move you made arranged by a you that exists in a higher dimension?
A bit of both I would think.


So everyone believes they have free will at some stage.
There are varying degrees of freewill, at different dimensional levels. However anything less than total and complete utter true freewill I am labeling as 'pseudo' freewill. Only in your complete and personal high dimensional reality where you can manifest ANY and ALL of your thoughts can you have the greatest and ultimate degree of freewill. If you do not believe such a state is possible you will never believe true and utter freewill is possible for all other existences are bounded by constrictions within their given frameworks.

truthseekerdan
29th April 2010, 04:17
Gestalt, you got a great thread going here... Thanks :thumb:
It reminded me of a book I've read quite recently by Michael Newton: Destiny of Souls (http://www.amazon.com/Destiny-Souls-Studies-Between-Lives/dp/1567184995/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1270754719&sr=1-1)
A good video to watch below by Father Peter (http://www.youtube.com/user/ruach2351#p/u/50/ty9QC1Wey-Q) among many others :)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ty9QC1Wey-Q&feature=player_profilepage&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fuser%2Fruach23 51%23p%2Fu%2F50%2Fty9QC1Wey-Q#!

Love & Peace, ~ Dan ~ :wub:

annemirri
2nd May 2010, 09:29
Father Peter

Without watching that video Trust me that this person, Father something, knows nothing about real free will, he cannot even choose his own outfit !

When I see those black priests walking on the road, I am always so amazed
that those beings still exist when we are living in 21st century and people are very much well educated ...one may wonder, will they ever be free...

a.

greybeard
2nd May 2010, 10:23
Without watching that video Trust me that this person, Father something, knows nothing about real free will, he cannot even choose his own outfit !

When I see those black priests walking on the road, I am always so amazed
that those beings still exist when we are living in 21st century and people are very much well educated ...one may wonder, will they ever be free...

a.

Yes annemirri
Any identification with a belief system, conditioning, even if well intended is a limitation, the thought of enlightenment must be released also and thats a hard one for me.
Chris

annemirri
2nd May 2010, 16:37
Any identification with a belief system, conditioning, even if well intended is a limitation, the thought of enlightenment must be released also and thats a hard one for me.


I believe that the real freedom, happiness, free will lies in "pantheism"
-

(the view that the Universe (Nature) and God are identical,
or that the Universe (including Nature on Earth) is the only thing deserving the deepest kind of reverence.

... Pantheists thus do not believe in a personal, anthropomorphic or creator god.

..the Cosmos as an all-encompassing unity and the "sacredness" of Nature.)

(and came to that conclusion a few years ago when I slept in my tent next to Roslin chapel
in Scotland, as it revealed its secrets.(laugh).)

and as long we are in pursuit of enlightenment we are not free.

You remember the story about a young man seeking for enlightenment and the Master who had it.
The young man studied all the books written about enlightenment, and still not finding the way
to enlightenment, then he travelled the world meeting all the spiritul masters, experiencing life,
only to return back to his master asking for help.

The master gave him a hoe, saying

"there are no secrets outside yourself, the key to happiness lies in everyday living"

a.

greybeard
2nd May 2010, 17:51
Hi anemirri
we might be a slightly of topic but thats freedom to express.
My current thoughts are mainly in line with yours.
Its a long time since I believed in a God sitting "up there" to judge me.
Yes "my" God is the totality all of it, yet none of it.
"Heaven" and everything I need to know is to be discovered within.
"Enlightenment" You cant find that, which you have already within you-- outside.
So for me its uncovering, letting go, but not an obsession.
Dont have a hoe but it was "mowing the grass fetching groceries yesterday."
Love
Chris

truthseekerdan
3rd May 2010, 00:34
Without watching that video Trust me that this person, Father something, knows nothing about real free will, he cannot even choose his own outfit !

When I see those black priests walking on the road, I am always so amazed
that those beings still exist when we are living in 21st century and people are very much well educated ...one may wonder, will they ever be free...

a.

Sure annemirri don't watch the video, it might be to inspiring for you... ;)

When you judge another person, you do not define them, you define yourself. :eek:

Hope you'll get better soon,

D.

annemirri
3rd May 2010, 06:42
When you judge another person, you do not define them, you define yourself. :eek:

Hope you'll get better soon,

-- MOD EDIT - Removed unproductive personal comment

What do you mean by "get better soon" ?
does it mean thinking like you, and finding "jesus" in my heart, or mind ?

Being part of your spiritualoasis was like VOMITING out the all the false Christian conditioned ideas that I might still carry with me, Thank you for that, I am clean now,
empty.

(But, you may still be searching for real free will as you seem to be searching for answers every day on my website.)

Love,
a.

annemirri
3rd May 2010, 07:08
Yes "my" God is the totality all of it, yet none of it.
"Heaven" and everything I need to know is to be discovered within.
"Enlightenment" You cant find that, which you have already within you-- outside.


As we are part of all that is,
we have all the possibilities, or even FREE WILL
to be born (reincarnate) as a river, a lake, a flower, a tree, an eagle,
(and not just as humans),

or we could choose to be born as a nature spirit, or force,
here, in this world, and reality
or another reality, world, dimension, somewhere else.

We have the free will to IMAGINE...

and as long as you have the power to dream you are free.

a.