Do we really exist

[The One]

Lets have a bit of fun with this post and by the way i have never done philosopphy so here goes

An atom has no intelligence, becasue it is just a collection of tiny tiny particles held together by magnetism. An atom does not need any food, drink, nutrition to keep living. An atom cannot die because matter cannot be created nor destroyed, and an atom is not alive.

everyone can accept this.

Now the confusing part. Every single one of us is made up of atoms, an yet we

die
need nutrition
have intelligence

How does this work out

Have you ever thought there might be more to us than what we see. I always say if you cant answer a question you must be missing part of the puzzle. What i mean is a sprit/soul like the feeling of existance where doese that come from.Nearly all of us think we exist not because of science or matter but of feelings. We all feel that we are us as an individual regardless of body. The body is just a tool or a ride in which our soul stays in. I think we exist because if you were put in a different body you'd still be the same person in a diffrent ride. just like changing cars the driver is the same, and is what that makes the car valuble, a dead body is useless without a soul

There will come a time when you believe everything is finished. That will be the beginning.

[Autumn]

Lets have a bit of fun with this post and by the way i have never done philosopphy so here goes

An atom has no intelligence, becasue it is just a collection of tiny tiny particles held together by magnetism. An atom does not need any food, drink, nutrition to keep living. An atom cannot die because matter cannot be created nor destroyed, and an atom is not alive.

everyone can accept this.



No, we can not all accept this. I don't think I agree but I have a problem explaining it too. I am actually in the process of trying to research this subject further so it is funny that you choose NOW to make this post ... not ha ha funny but you know. I can't explain it yet so it frustrates me instead. Others may be on to or further along similar research and can do better than I?

I'll keep researching and follow the thread. I'll probably get hell for this statement, though LOL

[jjl]

all of you definately exist to me. Am I in your actual universe? I have no idea...

[Jake]

all of you definately exist to me. Am I in your actual universe? I have no idea...

I see you!!! Jake....

[mike1414]

Lets have a bit of fun with this post and by the way i have never done philosopphy so here goes

An atom has no intelligence, becasue it is just a collection of tiny tiny particles held together by magnetism. An atom does not need any food, drink, nutrition to keep living. An atom cannot die because matter cannot be created nor destroyed, and an atom is not alive.

everyone can accept this


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfPeprQ7oGc

matter of opinion....

in love
mike

[Jake]

Yes, awesome find, Mike. I was just looking for that video to post. It gets right to the crux of the question. The wave function is offset by conscious observation, which in turn, creates the particle. Meaning, CONSCIOUSNESS creates physical reality, at all levels. Quantom/molecular/etc... Awesome topic.

[jorr lundstrom]

There are some minor points that I dont agree on:

Im not made up of atoms
Im not gonna die
I dont need nutrition
I dont have intelligense
And Im not at all convinced that I exist
But joy might exist maybye :playball:

[Autumn]

Mike1414 THANK YOU!!! It was something like that but there is more ... which I can still not explain. It also reminds me of the age old question ... if a tree falls in the woods but there are no one around will it make a noice? From your video the question could be deemed irrelevant as the tree then might not fall at all.

[TWINNICK]

:spy:...........No I'm just a figment of my imagination:pound:

..Nick..

[Lifesong]

If it's true that science (I think the ref. is Bohm) has proven that you can take two subatomic particles spinning together, separate them physically even to great distance, then change the spin of one and instantly the spin of the other changes to match...what is that?

Are the subatomic particles alive? What force of knowing would cause them to recognize that spin from all of the other subatomic particles out there?

Is that a proof of their existence?

[Crake]

Lets have a bit of fun with this post and by the way i have never done philosopphy so here goes

An atom has no intelligence, becasue it is just a collection of tiny tiny particles held together by magnetism. An atom does not need any food, drink, nutrition to keep living. An atom cannot die because matter cannot be created nor destroyed, and an atom is not alive.

everyone can accept this.



Not sure we all can accept this, but I like where your thinking is going.

Try this idea on for size.

These tiny singularities (focal points of consciousness) we refer to as atoms are no different than the stars, solar systems and galaxies that make up the body of our universe. They're all just fractals (differently sized sentient points of consciousness).

I am a physical representation of the universe made up of stars, solar systems and galaxies and you live within me as I live within each of you.

Thanks for the experience.

Crake

[InCiDeR]

Define: Exist


Common usage

In common usage, existence is the world we are aware of through our senses, and that persists independently without them. In academic philosophy the word has a more specialized meaning, being contrasted with essence, which specifies different forms of existence as well as different identity conditions for objects and properties.


Philosophers

Philosophers investigate questions such as "What exists?", "How do we know?", "To what extent are the senses a reliable guide to existence?", and "What is the meaning, if any, of assertions of the existence of categories, ideas, and abstractions?"


Ontology

Ontology is the philosophical study of the nature of being, existence or reality in general, as well as of the basic categories of being and their relations. Traditionally listed as a part of the major branch of philosophy known as metaphysics, ontology deals with questions concerning what entities exist or can be said to exist, and how such entities can be grouped, related within a hierarchy, and subdivided according to similarities and differences. A lively debate continues about the existence of God.


Epistemology

Epistemology studies criteria of truth, defining "primary truths" inherently accepted in the investigation of knowledge. The first is existence. It is inherent in every analysis. Its self-evident, a priori nature cannot be consistently doubted, since a person objecting to existence according to some standard of proof must implicitly accept the standard's existence as a premise.


Materialism

Materialism holds that the only thing that exists is matter, that all things are composed of material, and all phenomena (including consciousness) are the result of material interactions.

Life is a characteristic that distinguishes objects that have self-sustaining biological processes that exist from those that do not — either because such functions have ceased (death), or else because they lack such functions and are classified as "inanimate".


Etymology

The word "existence" comes from the Latin word existere meaning "to appear", "to arise", "to become", or "to be", but literally, it means "to stand out" (ex- being the Latin prefix for "out" added to the Latin verb stare, meaning "to stand").


Semantics

In mathematical logic, there are two quantifiers, "some" and "all", though as Brentano (1838–1917) pointed out, we can make do with just one quantifier and negation. The first of these quantifiers, "some". is also expressed as "there exists". Thus, in the sentence "There exists a man", the term "man" is asserted to be part of existence.

But we can also assert, "There exists a triangle." Is a "triangle" — an abstract idea —part of existence in the same way that a "man" — a physical body — is part of existence? Do abstractions such as goodness, blindness, and virtue exist in the same sense that chairs, tables, and houses exist? What categories, or kinds of thing, can be the subject or the predicate of a proposition?

Worse, does "existence" exist?

In some statements, existence is implied without being mentioned. The statement "A bridge crosses the Thames at Hammersmith" cannot just be about a bridge, the Thames, and Hammersmith. It must be about "existence" as well. On the other hand, the statement "A bridge crosses the Styx at Limbo" has the same form, but while in the first case we understand a real bridge in the real world made of stone or brick, what "existence" would mean in the second case is less clear.


Conclusion:

Do I exist just because there "exists" a word in our language - Exist - that we agreed upon?
In so, if the word "Exist" exists there must be a common sense of "exist" in my/our body/mind/spirit complex otherwise the word "Exist" and the common sense of it have no meaning and therefore does not exist.

Pof... InCiDeR cease to exist in a logical quantum cloud loop that might or might not exist ;)


Sidenote:

"Do we really exist". The sentence in itself is kind of an oxymoron. We can't answer both questions at the same time. Either we answer "really" or we answer "exist". The word "really" in the sentence makes the question much harder to understand than the answer.

[aroundthetable]

i think you answered your own question with your first post, we are not this body ;)

[ceetee9]

Ok, I'll play. I guess it depends on your definition of what 'exist' means. There are theories/models/concepts that suggest that there is only a singularity, the Creator--pure consciousness--and we are merely sparks of the Creator created so the Creator can experience its creation in an infinite number of ways. The universe (multiverse) is nothing more than a holographic projection that manifests via our observation/experience. Matter is a collapsed wave that manifests as one aspect of an infinite number of possibilities by our observation (i.e., matter is an illusion, there is only the energy of pure consciousness). So do we really exist? I think so, but not in the way most of us believe. We truly are one.

[truthseekerdan]

Measurement Problem - Reality is an Illusion (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJThU1jDT2o)

Found this great video to share... Enjoy everyone... see if we really exist! :wub:

LJThU1jDT2o

[gardunk]

I would have to disagree on the first premise about the atom. All mass/ physical reality,form has a neutral center that is its zero point and it is conscious/ so to take it as not plays into this endless debate about existence...Everything is a form of consciousness!

[Victoria Tintagel]

The One: I always say if you cant answer a question you must be missing part of the puzzle. What i mean is a sprit/soul like the feeling of existance where doese that come from.Nearly all of us think we exist not because of science or matter but of feelings. We all feel that we are us as an individual regardless of body. The body is just a tool or a ride in which our soul stays in. I think we exist because if you were put in a different body you'd still be the same person in a diffrent ride. just like changing cars the driver is the same, and is what that makes the car valuble, a dead body is useless without a soul

Thank you, The One, for this question. And by asking that, you exist, I believe it's a question on 2 levels: matter and spirit, because we are both.... and that is a matter of opinion of course :)
But that is my right and communication tool, to have an opinion, not stated as a matter of fact:
it's easy to become emprisoned in a loop here, somewhat like the question of Shakespeare
"To be, or not to be..."

In my opinion, my ego and physical body are saying "I exist" as a matter of fact, simply for survival. I need to eat, touch and be touched and deal with matter, in 3D vibration and as soon as I wake up in the morning, my body is assured that it exists, looking at the material world... and it's the coffee rush that does that sometimes to my consciousness :)

My spirit and "I am that I am" presence exists in a flow, a dynamic process, because movement is the essence of spirit and rigidity the essence of matter, relatively spoken... because all matter is vibration when looked into deep enough. It's such an issue of hologram and fractals,
even stepping out of the box", that it's comfortable for me, to live with the question only and let go of an answer as a desire.

When I proclaim to exist, I exist, I make it so and so it is. In a way that ALL THIS doesn't matter... pun intended. My spirit is eternal and doesn't need to be confirmed in it's existence. My spirit has a choice to attach itself to matter: an incarnation in a physical body.
That is proof of my existence on this planet Earth, but the part of me that makes a difference is not my physical presence, it's my light and love. My physical presence is an expression of that light and love and so are yours :) we are the Creators.


The One: There will come a time when you believe everything is finished. That will be the beginning.
I feel it's the state of being in the Void, where all creation stems from, The One, before the divine spark stroke a match :)

Do we exist here, in this Forum? Only virtually it has no living proof. It's the experience of being alive among others, nurtured and cared for, that makes children grow and aware of their existence and to a certain degree, different in importance for each of us, that goes for all of us. Suppose you live in a desert on your own, imagine your state of mind and being, having done that for 10 years or so? How does that feel? Maybe I would be in a deep relationship with a scorpion or a desert rat, for need of company :) to have proof that I exist. Or with Spirit/God :) who exists in that same scorpion or rat... and me. Be in grace, Victoria Tintagel.

[DarkSai]

Lets have a bit of fun with this post and by the way i have never done philosopphy so here goes

An atom has no intelligence, becasue it is just a collection of tiny tiny particles held together by magnetism. An atom does not need any food, drink, nutrition to keep living. An atom cannot die because matter cannot be created nor destroyed, and an atom is not alive.

everyone can accept this.

i dont accept this, not in the slightest. My personal view is that atoms are very much alive; they just don't "seem" as alive as plants and animals are. they are all a part of God-Source, thus have intellegence and even evolve (think how Stars create complex matter out simpler elements, and how we create even more complex compounds from those), just not the way we do. In my view, atoms are like parts of God, mini-souls if you like, that have sacrificed themselves totally that we can experience "atoms" in this reality. Atoms are essentially "fed" Light from God in order to sustain themselves and vibrate, rotate, condense and interact with this Light based on specific patterns (which mainstream science doesn't understand) in fluid-like manner (think sonoluminescence, but on a hyper-dimensional and holographic level).


Now the confusing part. Every single one of us is made up of atoms, an yet we

die
need nutrition
have intelligence

How does this work out

its not "us", per se, that are made of atoms. our bodies are.


Have you ever thought there might be more to us than what we see. I always say if you cant answer a question you must be missing part of the puzzle. What i mean is a sprit/soul like the feeling of existance where doese that come from.Nearly all of us think we exist not because of science or matter but of feelings. We all feel that we are us as an individual regardless of body. The body is just a tool or a ride in which our soul stays in. I think we exist because if you were put in a different body you'd still be the same person in a diffrent ride. just like changing cars the driver is the same, and is what that makes the car valuble, a dead body is useless without a soul

You're very right there :). the soul is ultimately "who we are"; this life is but one expression of a tiny piece of that. I myself see the body as vehicle, like you say, but nonetheless something which is precious and should be respected, like all manifestation of the God-Source. Many people, in my view, go wrong when they say they're no longer "materialistic" and then begin to totally reject the wonders of simply interacting with one's environment. traditional buddhism imo is heavily guilty of this. whats the point then of incarnating if, realising there's more than physicality, you dont appreciate the creation of the spirit itself?


There will come a time when you believe everything is finished. That will be the beginning.
that, or you'll realize first that nothing is ever finished :)

peace and love

[SKAWF]

i think it was rene descartes who wondered exactly the same thing.

how could one prove that one actually exists?
how do you know that you're not the product of someone elses dream?

what is there about a person, that is unique to them?
what is it, within your own experience, that you know for sure actually does exist,
that cannot come from another person?

'I think therefore I am'

your thoughts, even though they can be influenced, are your own.
no one does your thinking for you.

so the 'point of awareness' is unique to you,
and the conscious act (activity) of thought, is a manipulation of existance,

if you didnt exist, that would not be possible
therefore, you do exist.

steve

[Davidallany]

There is a story of a Buddhist monk named Bodhidharma, he was eating in a restaurant when an abbot of a nearby monastery was explaining to his two student about reality and how he understood that existence is something comparable to an illusion. Bodhidharma proceeded to slap that abbot causing him to be angry. The abbot shouted why did you hit me?. Bodhidharma answered, if life is like an illusion then there was no need for you to be angry and shout. if it was like an illusion who felt the pain then?. The abbot bowed to Bodhidharma and invited him to stay at his monastery. Later in a sermon Bodhidharma gave a lesson about the illusory nature of existence.

[Sharleen]

Lets have a bit of fun with this post and by the way i have never done philosopphy so here goes

An atom has no intelligence, becasue it is just a collection of tiny tiny particles held together by magnetism. An atom does not need any food, drink, nutrition to keep living. An atom cannot die because matter cannot be created nor destroyed, and an atom is not alive.

everyone can accept this


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfPeprQ7oGc

matter of opinion....

in love
mike

Well, that was interesting. Thanks for sharing

[TimelessDimensions]

There is only one way to know for sure...

Instructions:
Step 1. Fart in an overcrowded elevator
Step 2. Did the others react to your fart?
Step 3. If YES, then you have certifiable evidence that a part of you has died and become reincarnated in the lungs of your fellow humans.
Step 4. If NO, then eat 3 cans of baked beans and repeat the experiment.
Step 5. If you still get no reaction then you know for absolute certainty that you do not exist,
you never did, and you never will! So stop asking us if you exist because you don't. period.


Disclaimer: this experiment not recommended for people who stealthily release silent but deadly's,
a fair audible warning is the way of the warrior.

[AlexanderLight]

"Do we really exist" is a very interesting question. If you want a more elaborate answer, please follow this link:
http://HumansAreFree.com/2011/01/universe-virtual-world.html

[777]

Lets have a bit of fun with this post and by the way i have never done philosopphy so here goes

An atom has no intelligence, becasue it is just a collection of tiny tiny particles held together by magnetism. An atom does not need any food, drink, nutrition to keep living. An atom cannot die because matter cannot be created nor destroyed, and an atom is not alive.

everyone can accept this.



Not sure we all can accept this, but I like where your thinking is going.

Try this idea on for size.

These tiny singularities (focal points of consciousness) we refer to as atoms are no different than the stars, solar systems and galaxies that make up the body of our universe. They're all just fractals (differently sized sentient points of consciousness).

I am a physical representation of the universe made up of stars, solar systems and galaxies and you live within me as I live within each of you.

Thanks for the experience.

Crake

Completely agree with this. It refers to the ancient hermetic principle: As Above, So Below. This principle basically means exactly what Crake is pointing out. There is a universe inside every atom (focal point of consciousness:[which I'm going to mercilessly steal from him as it's too good to ignore]). This is how the microscopic universe mimics the macroscopic universe. And an atom of any seemingly inanimate object is the direct result of a previous consciousness causing it into being. Now think of your solar system again. I don't just suggest that it's a microscopically small focal point of consciousness within the All, I firmly believe, honour and know this with every one of the millions of atom's (universes) within my own body, soul and mind.

Please please please read this book if this concept vibes with you or you find it remotely interesting:

http://www.hermetics.org/pdf/kybalion.pdf

It changed my view of physics vs spirit and reconciled them. It has for millions. Enjoy!

[truthseekerdan]

The question is not if we exist, but why... :love:


http://vimeo.com/1189014

[Bill Ryan]

Lets have a bit of fun with this post and by the way i have never done philosopphy so here goes

An atom has no intelligence, becasue it is just a collection of tiny tiny particles held together by magnetism. An atom does not need any food, drink, nutrition to keep living. An atom cannot die because matter cannot be created nor destroyed, and an atom is not alive.

everyone can accept this.

Now the confusing part. Every single one of us is made up of atoms, an yet we

die
need nutrition
have intelligence

How does this work out

Have you ever thought there might be more to us than what we see. I always say if you cant answer a question you must be missing part of the puzzle. What i mean is a sprit/soul like the feeling of existance where doese that come from.Nearly all of us think we exist not because of science or matter but of feelings. We all feel that we are us as an individual regardless of body. The body is just a tool or a ride in which our soul stays in. I think we exist because if you were put in a different body you'd still be the same person in a diffrent ride. just like changing cars the driver is the same, and is what that makes the car valuble, a dead body is useless without a soul

There will come a time when you believe everything is finished. That will be the beginning.

Atoms didn't create spiritual beings (which is known as the theory that consciousness is an 'emergent property of matter').

Spiritual beings created atoms. The physical universe is a giant spiritual Disneyworld theme park and playground, co-created by us aeons ago.

But since then we've forgotten - and we wake up in the theme park with amnesia each lifetime, wondering what it's all about.

If you look at it this way, then everything suddenly makes sense. :)

[shadowstalker]

We all exist as one and always in the now state.

[aroundthetable]

Life comes from life

[truthseekerdan]

But since then we've forgotten - and we wake up in the theme park with amnesia each lifetime, wondering what it's all about.

Or maybe we chose to forget in order to progress spiritually. What do you believe, Bill? :)

[OmeyocaN777]

Lets have a bit of fun with this post and by the way i have never done philosopphy so here goes

An atom has no intelligence, becasue it is just a collection of tiny tiny particles held together by magnetism. An atom does not need any food, drink, nutrition to keep living. An atom cannot die because matter cannot be created nor destroyed, and an atom is not alive.

everyone can accept this.

Now the confusing part. Every single one of us is made up of atoms, an yet we

die
need nutrition
have intelligence

How does this work out

"Truth are the atoms and the emptiness"
Democritus
When Democritus spoke about atoms i believe he meant ether and not the atoms we speak today.
Imagine atoms(ether) like the sea, when we are in this state(ONE), we don't need "energy"(we are the energy).
Living in 3D world the sea became a drop of water(ego/illusion), then our purpose is to collect experience/info for our Creator/ONE
and from the antitheses/duality in 3D, every single soul helps to expand(learn ourselves).
Now in 3D, we die/need nutrition/have intelligence because we are separate from the sea(ONE).

"All are interlinked: totals, the converged and the protracted, the harmony and the solo.
Everything fits in one and from the one comes all."
Heraclitus

Heraclitus have much to say about existence/One
Read some of his sayings in this link
http://www.mousa.gr/en/html/heraclitus.html

[Sharleen]

I am going to share with you three stories. One was when I was about 27 of age. I had just started dating a new guy, and about two weeks into it he took me with him to visit some friends of his. There was five of us at the table, I forget what we were talking about it was over 13/14 years ago. I was in the middle of talking when I popped out of my body, hanging above listen to my body talk without me being any part of it. Separate thinking. I did not care what my body was talking about, just the fact that is was, and I was no part of it. I was separate from the (my) body. The vessel being the body with it own mind and me ‘the observe’ also with my own mind.

What did I learn about the vessel: It can function without me ‘the observe’. And now I find it hard to look at myself as just one being.

Next story is about when I was 19. A friend and I were walking down town Queen street, Auckland when we got approach by someone asking us if we would like to anticipate in a test. We accepted. Went up some stairs to a big room in the back. Had to answer some questions. They were testing our brain waves/pattern. Mine patterns went up and down, and my mate’s was like waves. I was then asked if I would like go to some type of meeting/group etc that helps people like myself to control it. Example: I can be working in a up market law firm one minute and then quit my job the next to sell plants (example only). I lived in Auckland for two years and moved 24 times. I have never lived in a place longer than one year and that is only if I owned the place, other then that is about every 3 to 4 months. I have just moved to where I am and am planning to stay here for a long time, I am placing a very big garden in the back, half way finished. Hoping this will help me keep my roots in the ground. By the way never went to the meetings.

After the experience that I had at 27 I now wonder whether it has something to do with the two minds being in conflict with each other causing erratic decision-making.

The third story is about an experience I had about two years back. I was lying down while something/someone whispered in my ear with the concept that was new to me at time and took me for a bit of a sixer. The concept was explained to me in a very complex manner, had to really listen and cant say I fully understood. From the small amount of information I could understand it was about how we create our own reality/illusion. My glass all of a sudden just got empty. I sill don’t know how to take that bit of information, sill working on it in my mind. The idea of my life being illusion and of my creation was hard to take in and sill is. Are the people around me real or an illusion or a creation of my own illusion?

I try to look at all experience including my own as a possibility only. According to believe/possibility we as human beings are incapable of comprehending the whole story, its why I feel the information and experiences we do receive are in small amounts depending on our ability to receive. That should be one of the biggest clues within itself.

sorry it so long, better go
cheers

[Maria Stade]

Sharleen
What did I learn about the vessel: It can function without me ‘the observe’. And now I find it hard to look at myself as just one being.

Yes we are all One. If one has got out of the body one knows that we are not only the body.
We are souls/spirits having a human experiences here on planet Earth.


Sharleen
After the experience that I had at 27 I now wonder whether it has something to do with the two minds being in conflict with each other causing erratic decision-making.



No your mind is not in conflict. But you have not found your way Yet.
You are trying to fit in to a system that dont fit You.
You need to be, and do what is right for you.

So what do you enjoy doing or having maybe dreams of doing.

Yes you are moving around "THE HOME" is your body !


Sharleen
The idea of my life being illusion and of my creation was hard to take in and sill is. Are the people around me real or an illusion or a creation of my own illusion?


Yes we have decided what kind of lessons to learn here on earth before we came. ( some of us, true for me)
No I do not see others as illusions they are souls having their experiences here right now and to do what they came here to do.

Most are still asleep and know not that they are spirit in body and have no clue why they are here.

We are eternal beings and some can remember past lives here on Earth and some can remember other lives on other planets.

The truth is with in every souls on the planet. We need to remember who we are.

Hope this helps.

All Love

Maria

[Sharleen]

Yes we are all One. If one has got out of the body one knows that we are not only the body.
We are souls/spirits having a human experiences here on planet Earth.

Thank-you Maria Stade for your kind reply. Yes we are all one but I feel there is two knowing to be found here, the vessel and the soul. The vessel finding it true self, and the soul finding it way home (descending). Yes to we are souls having a human experience, but I would like to add that it is just as important for our vessels to reconnect and be/become the amazing human being (vessels) they are mean to be. Higher frequency, love, light, working as one. Would you move home and leave your previous house a mess? And it is a mess down here of our own doing, we allowed greed, power and control to take the rains and drive, and we are all still allowing it to happen at different degrees.

Maria
No your mind is not in conflict. But you have not found your way Yet.
You are trying to fit in to a system that dont fit You.
You need to be, and do what is right for you.

We are all in the same boat, just at different level of knowing.

Maria
So what do you enjoy doing or having maybe dreams of doing.

Thank-you for asking Maria Stade. I would have to say my gardens would be my joy, and my kids and now grandchildren. My dream is to go home for I do have a home, but that is another experience/story. How about you Maria Stade, what do you dream of doing?

Maria
Yes we have decided what kind of lessons to learn here on earth before we came. ( some of us, true for me)
No I do not see others as illusions they are souls having their experiences here right now and to do what they came here to do.

Yes, I do not know how to take that one myself. For my life seem real to me. I have only been told once and I can honesty say I barley understand what it was talking about and they talk with such complex. And it was not like other experience where I am able to remember the conversation word for word for a short length of time. They do not put sentence together as you and I would. I took the whole conversation as an introduction, and only understanding about 5% of it, which is not a lot.

Maria
Most are still asleep and know not that they are spirit in body and have no clue why they are here.

We are eternal beings and some can remember past lives here on Earth and some can remember other lives on other planets.

Agree, I to have been here before. One of my past life’s have come back to bite me so to speak, another experience/story for another time.

Maria
The truth is with in every souls on the planet. We need to remember who we are.

Tell me Maria Stade, do you know who you are as yet?

Love back
Sharleen

[Bill Ryan]

But since then we've forgotten - and we wake up in the theme park with amnesia each lifetime, wondering what it's all about.

Or maybe we chose to forget in order to progress spiritually. What do you believe, Bill? :)

No, that's not the case. Physical bodies (and recurring reincarnations in them) are a relatively recent development. The amnesia at the start of each new lifetime is an aberration (an error that ideally should not be occurring) and is connected with incarnating in a human body.

But reincarnating in a body is not needed in order to be in the 'Games'. Many beings never incarnate at all, and don't have the kind of amnesia that most humans do each time they start a new lifetime. And they get stuck in the Games, too, and have to 'learn their way out'. :)

[Maria Stade]

Sharleen
Thank-you Maria Stade for your kind reply. Yes we are all one but I feel there is two knowing to be found here, the vessel and the soul. The vessel finding it true self, and the soul finding it way home (descending). Yes to we are souls having a human experience, but I would like to add that it is just as important for our vessels to reconnect and be/become the amazing human being (vessels) they are mean to be. Higher frequency, love, light, working as one. Would you move home and leave your previous house a mess? And it is a mess down here of our own doing, we allowed greed, power and control to take the rains and drive, and we are all still allowing it to happen at different degrees.

My vessel (body) is still healing from my experiences in life - ;) car accident and later i druged it with pain killers untill I was all poisoned Took about 10 years. But yes I love my vessel to bits :love: what fun I can have with it ;)

The body is the earth element and we have truly messed up our planet !
I never was in to things or money but I didnt had love for her as I should have. (not me and not the planet )

Yes The body is a amazing tool and we are on a amazing planet !

We must stop this madness going on by mad people, ruling and manipulating the planet, They must step down.


Sharleen
How about you Maria Stade, what do you dream of doing?



I think I will do all kinds of things as always.
A childhood hobby did came back to me I lost the ability to paint and now I do that when ever I feel like it !
On computer now days. Lots of fun !
I do love gardening my self so I will grow some food this year as Me and Jorr did get some land to grow on. All fun.
I think I will just enjoy my self mostly and help others when I feel called or when the need is.
Just be in Love and Bliss :wub:


Sharleen
They do not put sentence together as you and I would. I took the whole conversation as an introduction, and only understanding about 5% of it, which is not a lot.


Ha ha no they dont ! Some comnunicate with energy only !
I dont even try to grasp it with my brain ! I belive some other part of the intelligent me "Gets it" or maybe it needs to sink in before I do get it.
Exiting LOL


Sharleen
Tell me Maria Stade, do you know who you are as yet?


I think I know a lot, but not all, we do not stop our development.
Its a exiting journey !

:wub:

Maria

[jorr lundstrom]

Life of the ego as superior has an end, but awakening has only a beginning, no end.:hug:

[Merkaba360]

Existence vs Non existence is duality. Same with God vs Not God or Theism vs Atheism.......All these dualities are creations of the mind, obscurations of the mind.

THERE IS ONLY ONE !!

Is this real or not real? Well, what is a hologram? Its as real as we can experience it now and yet its not real like most think it is. Its just an argument of the mind and one day we will laugh at how crazy we were manufacturing all this confusion of two.

Existence and nonexistence are the same thing appearing as two.

Its real unless its not. "The One" is imagination. Everything you can and can not think of can appear in imagination. Imagination of EVERYTHING! So imagination is so powerful , that you could see the void and your interpretive mechanisms will instantly turn it into something you expect it to be , like a wall of fog.

The happening of memories are also part of the one's imagination and capabilities. So, they are really happening in the now , but seem to be of the past. So we misinterpret whats happening in the now as some past. A lot of weird convoluted things can happen in the now. But do we see it as it is or as it appears to be?

[truthseekerdan]

But since then we've forgotten - and we wake up in the theme park with amnesia each lifetime, wondering what it's all about.

Or maybe we chose to forget in order to progress spiritually. What do you believe, Bill? :)

No, that's not the case. Physical bodies (and recurring reincarnations in them) are a relatively recent development. The amnesia at the start of each new lifetime is an aberration (an error that ideally should not be occurring) and is connected with incarnating in a human body.

But reincarnating in a body is not needed in order to be in the 'Games'. Many beings never incarnate at all, and don't have the kind of amnesia that most humans do each time they start a new lifetime. And they get stuck in the Games, too, and have to 'learn their way out'. :)

Hi Bill,

Not sure why you are using the "aberration" word in this situation... I personally don't believe that's the case when a 'soul agrees to wear the 3D human body'. This reality (game) comes with the freedom of choice (free will/duality) -- therefore in order to progress spiritually one 'needs to have a clean memory' of who (s)he is, otherwise it wouldn't be a 'fair test choice'. In other words, one has to start with not knowing who (s)he really is, and have the free will to rediscover the 'truth', or get stuck for as long as needed until the lesson(s) is learned so to speak. Certainly there are other 'reality games' that other beings with higher than 3D density bodies (perhaps even some of us) play(ed) however, if they know who they really are (fractals of Source), then the freedom of choice that comes with the duality will not be necessary. Each 'reality game' comes with its own lessons to be experienced, and learned, etc.

Have you had a chance to read any of Dolores Cannon, or Brian Weiss books. I do resonate a lot with their works. Recommend that you take a look -- it will change ones perspective. JMHO :)

Namaste ~ Dan

[sdafnom]

Atoms didn't create spiritual beings (which is known as the theory that consciousness is an 'emergent property of matter').

Spiritual beings created atoms. The physical universe is a giant spiritual Disneyworld theme park and playground, co-created by us aeons ago.

But since then we've forgotten - and we wake up in the theme park with amnesia each lifetime, wondering what it's all about.

If you look at it this way, then everything suddenly makes sense. :)

I agree. The playground was created a long time ago to serve as intended: PLAYGROUND.
At some point an intervention occurred, amnesia was introduced and the playground became HardShipGround.
A lot of effort has been invested since then, in order to keep everyone from remembering/discovering who we really are.

Do we really exist? You have to "define the timeline" for this question.
Bill is answering from the bigger perspective.
I think, The One, is asking from the "after the amnesia" perspective.

The known or ordinary matter (the matter that can be observed with current technology) is 4% of the total.
22% is dark matter and 74% is dark energy (which might be the Aether of the ancients).

So, in a simple analogy: trying to answer the question of existence with 4% of data, is like trying to explain how a car works, with your knowledge limited to the steering wheel and the gas/breaks pedals.

This is why in the Quantum field, most laws of physics fail. They are designed to work within the 4%.
If you expand your sampling beyond the 4%, then you need new laws to describe what is going on.





But since then we've forgotten - and we wake up in the theme park with amnesia each lifetime, wondering what it's all about.

Or maybe we chose to forget in order to progress spiritually. What do you believe, Bill? :)

No, that's not the case. Physical bodies (and recurring reincarnations in them) are a relatively recent development. The amnesia at the start of each new lifetime is an aberration (an error that ideally should not be occurring) and is connected with incarnating in a human body.

But reincarnating in a body is not needed in order to be in the 'Games'. Many beings never incarnate at all, and don't have the kind of amnesia that most humans do each time they start a new lifetime. And they get stuck in the Games, too, and have to 'learn their way out'. :)

Yes Bill, "learn their way out", but ... out where?
Now, that is an interesting question...but I am guessing it won't be answered any time soon.
But until then, anything on the aberration connection to human incarnation?

Stavros

[OmeyocaN777]

Do you Exist?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gg4jnXyqArc&feature=player_embedded

[Victoria Tintagel]

Hey Avaloneans, there are some great discussions going on at this moment, here's a post by Giovanni in the thread that Sepia started "Radioactive matter Let's be spiritual Healers"

It's related to the discussion here "Do we really exist?" started by The One. Showing the transformation of a radioactive atom, from destruction towards restoration, through love.
The link of this post offers a scientific approach to the same subject.

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?16739-Radio-active-matter-Let-s-be-spiritual-Healers&p=180145&viewfull=1#post180145

Change is the nature of life itself and therefore, change is also the nature of existence. By this method of change, onto an atom, one can undoubtedly say that we exist as living and loving beings.

The One:
An atom has no intelligence, because it is just a collection of tiny tiny particles held together by magnetism. An atom does not need any food, drink, nutrition to keep living. An atom cannot die because matter cannot be created nor destroyed, and an atom is not alive. Everyone can accept this. Now the confusing part. Every single one of us is made up of atoms,
and yet we die, need nutrition, have intelligence. How does this work out?

I guess, the One, that this simple excersise, so beautifully shared by Sepia, is proof that we exist and it shows the power of compassionate love entering a dense vibration: an atom of radioactive material, restoring it to health. That is the essence of Creation, I think. Now, at last, we are offered an opportunity to step in higher levels of the 4th dimension and be love, working miracles. By intent, we may surrender to our divine will and be Creators. I think, we might be in a Planetary Poleshift in a smooth way.

The latest Hathor message (posted here) by Tom Kenyon www.tomkenyon.com offers insights on dealing with radioactivity in a different approach: by working on one's own body/ energy, programming it by the use of appreciation, gratitude and love. To create a shield as protection against radioactivity, for example. By going inwards. Consciousness is the only tool we need....
to not stumble over molehills and to move mountains :) Be in grace, Victoria Tintagel.

[W.C.]

Thank you for this thread, The One. I enjoyed the question and responses.

Do we exist? Is it a question of consciousness, of perception?

'...Once upon a time, I, Zhuangzi, dreamt I was a butterfly, fluttering hither and thither, to all intents and purposes a butterfly. I was conscious only of my happiness as a butterfly, unaware that I was Zhuangzi. Soon I awaked, and there I was, veritably myself again. Now I do not know whether I was then a man dreaming I was a butterfly, or whether I am now a butterfly, dreaming I am a man.'
Zhuangzi, (c. 369 BC - c. 286 BC)

Zhuangzi's sentiments are brilliant in awaking one to the possibility of the sheer scale of the illusions we face -- but illusions are dependant on our perceptions, which themselves are dependant on our wisdom, our own understandings. It only follows that illusions are only such because we do not know the nature of the illusion, and once we do, it ceases to be an illusion as opposed to a science.

That said, it is my understanding that perception is reality. We perceive illusions as reality because we don't understand we assume. Hence, I would imagine, the great need of the puppeteers to shape our perceptions with the barrage of illusions they throw at us.

I'm particularly glad mike1414 posted the quantum physics 'slit experiment' video, as it's an outstanding lead into what I am about to elaborate to. The slit experiment shows that an observer effects physical reality.

Let that sink in for a moment. An observer effects physical reality. Another experiment confirming such was the snowflake experiment, where different people were to focus and direct perceived positive / negative / content thoughts towards a snowflake. The results of the experiment showed that this direction of thoughts, this control of energy reshaped the physical structure of the snowflakes.

What does this mean, if not that we are powerful beyond measure, God's in our own right? Well, not exactly God's as I stated. It would be more in line with Mohandas' sentiments that, 'we may not be God, but we are a part of God, like a drop of water is a part of the ocean.'

Logically, if one were to learn how to harness ones own abilities in the above regard, who knows what level one may reach. Limits are only bound by perception after all.

...Much like in a dream.

We do not die, our bodies return to the Earth and our consciousness/soul continues on to, in my understanding, either reincarnation, or the realm of consciousness/souls.

Before I go on, there is a particular experiment going on as we speak at the University of Science and Technology of China that I must note here. The Chinese spent 13 years of research and built a specifically designed computer, nicknamed Li Bai, to pick up signals from the dead and record their messages. The university researchers worked with a number of terminally ill subjects over the 13 years, training them to operate a specially designed program using only the electrical impulses generated by their brain.


The program runs on a highly sensitive computerized machine which responds to the slightest changes in electro-magnetic fields, and is able to connect with the patients thought waves and convert them to text messages. Around a year ago, the researchers at the University achieved a particularly interesting breakthrough.

It is my understanding that over a hundred subjects passed on without a successful contact, until around a year ago, when 'Subject 37' succeeded. he spoke to the scientists from the after-life.

To date, much of the communication with the deceased man has concerned the amount of energy he must expend, and probing the techniques he uses to send signals to the machine in the university research lab. He said he was unable to signal them for several weeks after his death, but finally changed his method of transmitting signals, involving a process similar to mental telepathy and steps described in the Tibetan Book of the Dead, making contact at last.

The university will not discuss who Subject 37 is, saying only that he was a physician who died at the age of 68. In his after-life messages he verified his identity by means of an assigned code name, known only to the researchers and himself. He also signaled pre-arranged answers to a series of questions correctly.

Researchers have faithfully recorded Subject 37’s messages and plans are to publish them. The messages continue to arrive, although the dead man has indicated he plans to stop the communications eventually.

Now, two things stand out to me in this experiment. The first being, as in life, one is able to increase ones level of ... perception and control to limitless proportions (i.e. contact, etc), and second, one is able to prepare for the realm of consciousness/souls.

In my understanding, one is therefore able to become powerful beyond measure in the realm of consciousness/souls, if one were to properly prepare. I mean, just imagine for a second that the being our leaders worship, to whom they begin wars on relevant occult dates for (possibly to increase the beings power in the afterlife), was once a being just like us, way back when, but has harnessed enough power to make certain things so. How much of our many religions, mysterious experiences, et al, can then be explained in this regard?

'...I've found that the chief difficulty for most people was to realize that they had really heard new things: that is things that they had never heard before. They kept translating what they heard into their habitual language. They had ceased to hope and believe there might be anything new.'
P. D. Ouspensky, The Psychology of Man's Possible Evolution (1950)

In any case, I suppose my answer is yes, we exist -- but we are as yet unable to properly define the lines between existence, perception, reality and illusion -- which are non-existent to us, without us. Meanwhile, we have not journeyed all this way across the centuries, across the oceans, across the mountains, across the prairies, because we are made of sugar candy.

The day may dawn.

I hope I did not speak too broadly in my response -- I'm afraid I have a naturally inclination to try put things in as few words as possible, a little too succinctly at times when it comes to stating an understanding. If any clarification is required, just let me know and I'll be glad to respond with my meaning. As Zhuangzi wrote, 'Words are for meaning only: When you've got the meaning, you can forget the words...'

In any case, let me finish up with one final quotation from a character that became very dear to me in my learning... and I hope you may enjoy it as much as I.

'...Let teachers and priests and philosophers brood over questions of reality and illusion. I know this; if life is illusion, then I am no less an illusion, and being thus, the illusion is real to me. I live, I burn with life, I love, I slay, and am content.'
Conan, Queen of the Black Coast (1934)

[W.C.]

I apologise on second thought -- the post, by it's very length, defends itself quite well from ever being read.

;)