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Icecold
23rd March 2011, 12:07
THE LONGING FOR A NEW ARTHURIAN FIGURE
TO MAKE THINGS RIGHT – A NEW CAMELOT


Max Mell, a contemporary poet, has said that underneath the thin cosmopolitan surface of today’s modern Western World lie all the “old heroes” still – Parsifal, Guinevere, Roland, Lancelot, Barbarossa, Tristan, Isolde, etc. They are implanted far too deeply in our collective memory to ever be rooted out by the fleeting fashions of modernity, secularism, and democracy – and who, like Arthur (the “once and future king” – the Resitiutor Orbis), stand ready to re-emerge and rescue us from the chaos and confusion of this present evil world. And there are more people than most would care to admit (many of whom are passing themselves off as Christians) who are calling us to embrace the concept of leadership that these old “warrior kings” represented – a kind of messianic leadership based on nobility of character, charisma and the ability to “get things done.”

Indeed, many of the Christian men and women who are crying out for such leadership hold the concepts of what we today call “democracy” in utter contempt. To their mind, messianic leadership – not democracy – is the ideal. To such people, the messy and disordered condition of “politics as usual” – with all its sordid, back room deal-making and compromises – is a disgusting and vulgar thing, made all the more loathsome by people like Bill and Hillary Clinton and the radical feminists, militant homosexuals and effete multiculturalists who surround them.

The longing for such a messiah rests on the bedrock of Western tradition, a tradition which the secular elites can hide and gloss over, but one which they have utterly failed to stamp out; it is far too deeply embedded in the Western psyche – so much so that British writers Norris J. Lacy and Geoffrey Ashe can write that such a messiah has been -

“… persistently imagined and hoped for – a new Constantine who will … end civil strife and (the) usurpation (of political power by the moneyed elite) … (who will) defeat … (Christendom’s) … enemies, and bring back peace and prosperity.”


And not only that, but – as Carolly Erickson, a professor at the University of California at Santa Barbara, writes -

[I]“… one who (like Arthur) dwells in the circle of the miraculous.”

King Arthur’s messianic return

King Arthur’s messianic return is an aspect of the legend of King Arthur, the mythical 6th-century British king. Few historical records of Arthur remain, and there are doubts that he ever existed, but he achieved a mythological stature that gave rise to a growing literature about his life and deeds. One recurrent aspect of Arthurian literature was the notion that he would one day return in the role of a messiah to save his people.

Origins

The possibility of Arthur’s return is first mentioned by William of Malmesbury in the early 12th century: “But Arthur’s grave is nowhere seen, whence antiquity of fables still claims that he will return.”[1] In the “Miracles of St. Mary of Laon” (De Miraculis Sanctae Mariae Laudensis), written by a French cleric named Herman in c. 1145 AD, but referring to events that occurred in 1113 AD, mention is made of the Breton and Cornish belief that Arthur still lived.[2] As Constance Bullock-Davies demonstrated, various non-Welsh sources indicate that this belief in Arthur’s eventual messianic return was extremely widespread amongst the Britons from the 12th century onwards. How much earlier than this it existed is still debated – it was often linked to the expulsion of the English and Normans from Britain.[3] This did, in fact, remain a powerful aspect of the Arthurian legend through the medieval period and beyond. So John Lydgate in his Fall of Princes (1431–8) notes the belief that Arthur “shall resorte as lord and sovereyne Out of fayrye and regne in Breteyne” and Philip II of Spain apparently swore, at the time of his marriage to Mary Tudor in 1554, that he would resign the kingdom if Arthur should return.[4]

A number of locations were suggested for where Arthur would actually return from. The earliest-recorded suggestion was Avalon. Geoffrey of Monmouth asserted that Arthur “was mortally wounded” at Camlann but was then carried “to the Isle of Avallon (insulam Auallonis) to be cured of his wounds”, with the implication that he would at some point be cured and return therefrom made explicit in Geoffrey’s later Vita Merlini.[5] Another tradition held that Arthur was awaiting his return beneath some mountain or hill. First referenced by Gervase of Tilbury in his Otia Imperialia (c.1211), this was maintained in British folklore into the 19th century and Loomis and others have taken it as a tale of Arthur’s residence in an underground (as opposed to an overseas) Otherworld.[6] Other less common concepts include the idea that Arthur was absent leading the Wild Hunt, or that he had been turned into a crow or raven.

Modern adaptations

This idea of Arthur’s eventual return has proven attractive to a number of modern writers. John Masefield used the idea of Arthur sleeping under a hill as the central theme in his poem Midsummer Night (1928).[8] C. S. Lewis also was inspired by this aspect of Arthur’s legend in his novel That Hideous Strength (1945), in which King Arthur was said to be living in the land of Abhalljin on the planet Venus.[9] The return of King Arthur has been especially prominent in the comics medium with examples from at least the 1940s, while the best known use of this motif is by Mike Barr and Brian Bolland, who have Arthur and his knights returning in the year 3000 to save the Earth from an alien invasion in the comic book series Camelot 3000 (1982–85).[10] Finally, Stephen R. Lawhead‘s novel Avalon: The Return of King Arthur (1999) features a reincarnated Arthur who rises to restore the British monarchy as it is about to be abolished.


Medieval politics

The influence of Arthur’s legend is not confined to novels, stories and films; the legend of Arthur’s messianic return has often been politically influential. On the one hand it seems to have provided a means of rallying Welsh resistance to Anglo-Norman incursions in the 12th century and later. One Anglo-Norman text recounts of the Welsh that “openly they go about saying,… / that in the end they will have it all; / by means of Arthur, they will have it back… / They will call it Britain again.”[12] It may be that such references as this reflect a post-Galfridian Welsh belief that Arthur ought to be associated with the “Mab Darogan” (“Son of Prophecy”), a messianic figure of the Welsh prophetic tradition who would repel the enemies of the Welsh and who was often identified with heroes such as Cadwaladr, “Owain” (Owain Lawgoch and Owain Glyndŵr in Welsh prophetic verse.[13] However, as Oliver Padel has noted, no example of a Welsh prophetic poetry telling of Arthur’s return to expel the enemies of the Welsh from Britain has survived, which some have seen as troubling and a reason for caution: we must rely on non-Welsh texts (such as the above) for the notion that this was a widespread belief amongst the Welsh from the mid-12th century onwards, along with more debatable evidence such as Henry VII’s attempts to associate himself with Arthur when taking the throne, discussed below.[14]

On the other hand, the notion of Arthur’s eventual return to rule a united Britain was adopted by the Plantagenet kings to justify their rule.[15] Once King Arthur had been safely pronounced dead and buried at Glastonbury, in an attempt to deflate Welsh dreams of a genuine Arthurian return, the Plantagenets were then able to make ever greater use of Arthur as a political cult to support their dynasty and its ambitions. So, Richard I used his status as the inheritor of Arthur’s realm to shore up foreign alliances, giving a sword reputed to be Excalibur to Tancred of Sicily.[16] Similarly, ‘Round Tables‘ – jousting and dancing in imitation of Arthur and his knights – occurred at least 8 times in England between 1242 and 1345, including one held by Edward I in 1284 to celebrate his conquest of Wales and consequent ‘re-unification’ of Arthurian Britain.[17] The Galfridian claim that Arthur conquered Scotland was also used by Edward I to provide legitimacy to his claims of English suzerainty over that region.[18

Post-medieval politics

The influence of King Arthur on the political machinations of England’s kings was not confined to the medieval period: the Tudors also found it expedient to make use of Arthur. In 1485 Henry VII marched through Wales to take the English throne under the banner of the Arthurian Red Dragon, he commissioned genealogies to show his putative descent from Arthur, and named his first-born son Arthur.[19] Later, in the reigns of Henry VIII and Elizabeth, Arthur’s career was influential once again, now in providing evidence for supposed historical rights and territories in legal cases that pursued the crown’s interests.[20] Whilst the potential for such political usage – wherein the reality of Geoffrey’s Arthur and his wide-ranging conquests was accepted and proclaimed by English antiquarians and thus utilised by the crown – naturally declined after the attacks on Geoffrey’s Historia by Polydore Vergil and others,[21] Arthur has remained an occasionally politically potent figure through to the present era. In the 20th century, a comparison of John F. Kennedy and his White House with Arthur and Camelot, made by Kennedy’s widow, helped consolidate Kennedy’s posthumous reputation, with Kennedy even becoming associated with an Arthur-like messianic return in American folklore.

http://seerfax.wordpress.com/2010/08/page/2/

Arthurian Resources: King Arthur, History and the Welsh Arthurian Legends (http://www.arthuriana.co.uk/) – detailed and comprehensive academic site, includes numerous scholarly articles, from Thomas Green of Oxford University

Arthuriana (http://faculty.smu.edu/arthuriana/) – the only academic journal solely concerned with the Arthurian Legend, see the site for a good selection of resources and links

slvrfx
23rd March 2011, 14:49
Very interesting. an Avalon member asked me to do some research on Arthur, so I thank you profusely.

I found genealogy for Arthur, and his ancestors in a book by the famous genealogist for some of the royal families, Laurence Gardner.

The book- "Genesis of the Grail Kings".

Interesting that he was the eldest son, of a father who was King, but his mother became pregnant when she was married to another man. After her husband died, she married Arthur's father.

Another note-worthy tidbit Gardner writes about is how Arthur was the only one in his family who was fighting in favor of Christianizing (Roman Church) their kingdom, while his father and brothers fought to retain their traditional beliefs.

Arthur died in battle, before he could claim the throne.

linz2d
23rd March 2011, 15:41
Similarly, ‘Round Tables‘ – jousting and dancing in imitation of Arthur and his knights – occurred at least 8 times in England between 1242 and 1345, including one held by Edward I in 1284 to celebrate his conquest of Wales and consequent ‘re-unification’ of Arthurian Britain. The Galfridian claim that Arthur conquered Scotland was also used by Edward I to provide legitimacy to his claims of English suzerainty over that region.

I find this amusing because it was said that King Robert the Bruce used the Arthurian legends and the classical tales to inspire his troops to fight against the English occupation and to reclaim Scotland. So it was used on both sides of the border.

araucaria
23rd March 2011, 15:54
I would thoroughly recommend TH White's 'The Once and Future King'. He has Merlin living backwards all the way back from Nazi German times, which is a way of injecting a lot of wisdom with hindsight.

Borden
23rd March 2011, 16:51
This reminds me of a podcast I recently listened to, of Clyde Lewis (Ground Zero). He says that Prince William is this new Arthurian figure, and a sort of designated anti-Christ. Clyde Lewis is pretty sensationalistic, but a lot of the facts and figures he mentioned were creepily compelling. I'm not a Christian, but as Clyde often says: it doesn't matter what you believe, THEY believe it, and we'd better pay attention to that.

The PTB will use anything and everything to manipulate us, including archetypes, subliminal 'recognition', and any implanted beliefs they can get their grubby hands on. The Arthurian stories are positive in my book, but they can be perverted and used against us like anything else.

Borden.

conk
23rd March 2011, 19:49
My first name is Arthur. I'm not quite ready to start pulling on swords though. ;)

Isn't this romantic idea of a savior what got us to where we are? Looking elsewhere for our salvation?

jjl
23rd March 2011, 20:03
My first name is Arthur. I'm not quite ready to start pulling on swords though.

Isn't this romantic idea of a savior what got us to where we are? Looking elsewhere for our salvation?
I'm pretty sure that Bill is supposed to be king Arthur and Charles is Lancelot. If he isn't then someone else on this forum will be Lancelot.

jorr lundstrom
23rd March 2011, 20:32
My first name is Arthur. I'm not quite ready to start pulling on swords though.

Isn't this romantic idea of a savior what got us to where we are? Looking elsewhere for our salvation?
I'm pretty sure that Bill is supposed to be king Arthur and Charles is Lancelot. If he isn't then someone else on this forum will be Lancelot.

jjl, I love this idea. And then they could collect 18 righeous knights,

get a round table and fix the world before it goes down the sink. Hurry please.:couch2:

Maria Stade
23rd March 2011, 20:36
My first name is Arthur. I'm not quite ready to start pulling on swords though.


Wot why not ? Isnt that what Arthurs is to do ??
We thought you was to save us all !
:cry:

Wot are we going to doooooo...

Ahhh you are not ready YET well we just wait, You just let us know when you are :becky:

Pilgrim
23rd March 2011, 20:43
Interesting, however, let´s forget kings, messiahs, prophets saviours and gods, don´t let them safe us, don´t safe anybody, let´s BE ourselves what we realy are..

jjl
23rd March 2011, 20:46
My first name is Arthur. I'm not quite ready to start pulling on swords though.

Isn't this romantic idea of a savior what got us to where we are? Looking elsewhere for our salvation?
I'm pretty sure that Bill is supposed to be king Arthur and Charles is Lancelot. If he isn't then someone else on this forum will be Lancelot.

jjl, I love this idea. And then they could collect 18 righeous knights,

get a round table and fix the world before it goes down the sink. Hurry please.:couch2:

Is there a plumber in the house?

linz2d
23rd March 2011, 20:47
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKhEw7nD9C4&feature=related

NONE SHALL PASS!!! :becky:

Maria Stade
23rd March 2011, 21:01
Interesting, however, let´s forget kings, messiahs, prophets saviours and gods, don´t let them safe us, don´t safe anybody, let´s BE ourselves what we realy are..

But but if we are our self, and save our self, then we have NO ONE TO BLAME Isint that a little to modern ??:fear:

jorr lundstrom
23rd March 2011, 21:05
Interesting, however, let´s forget kings, messiahs, prophets saviours and gods, don´t let them safe us, don´t safe anybody, let´s BE ourselves what we realy are..

But but if we are our self, and save our self, then we have NO ONE TO BLAME Isint that a little to modern ??:fear:

If we have no one to blame, thats your fault.:horn:

Lettherebelight
23rd March 2011, 21:21
I have oft pondered the yearning we seem to share for the return of the Once and Future King...

answers veiled, elusive as the mists of Avalon...

shadows..lost in time.

If all knowledge lies within...then surely one would find him there?

Lord Sidious
24th March 2011, 01:03
Similarly, ‘Round Tables‘ – jousting and dancing in imitation of Arthur and his knights – occurred at least 8 times in England between 1242 and 1345, including one held by Edward I in 1284 to celebrate his conquest of Wales and consequent ‘re-unification’ of Arthurian Britain. The Galfridian claim that Arthur conquered Scotland was also used by Edward I to provide legitimacy to his claims of English suzerainty over that region.

I find this amusing because it was said that King Robert the Bruce used the Arthurian legends and the classical tales to inspire his troops to fight against the English occupation and to reclaim Scotland. So it was used on both sides of the border.

Robert de Brus was a norman, not a Scot.

Setras
24th March 2011, 01:12
[QUOTE=linz2d;182286]

Robert de Brus was a norman, not a Scot.


surely then that would make him norman the brus?

Lord Sidious
24th March 2011, 01:29
[QUOTE=linz2d;182286]

Robert de Brus was a norman, not a Scot.


surely then that would make him norman the brus?

Not according to his parents.

str8thinker
24th March 2011, 01:58
Interesting thread. No account of Arthur should omit the role of Merlin; the two, as they say, are inextricably entwined.

Without meaning to go off-topic, the BBC a year or two ago produced a documentary Merlin: The Legend (which you can find on BitTorrent). It's a great doco.


Merlin is the archetypal wizard: Welsh and Celtic in origin, but with connections in Cornwall and middle Europe and, of course, the Arthurian legends. Merlin is clearly the distant relative of Dumbledore and all those weird and wonderful wizards that people our literature.

The documentary traces Merlin’s continuing presence in arts and culture across the world right up to the present day, through blockbuster films, videogames or New Age gatherings at Stonehenge. He offers something beyond mundane daily life. It’s magic. It’s irresistible.

I wonder how much Merlin is needed as a device to tell the Arthurian story. In other words, to what extent was King Arthur's legend spread without the presence of Merlin to tell it? Maybe one of you scholars can answer this.

Icecold
24th March 2011, 04:05
My first name is Arthur. I'm not quite ready to start pulling on swords though.

Isn't this romantic idea of a savior what got us to where we are? Looking elsewhere for our salvation?
I'm pretty sure that Bill is supposed to be king Arthur and Charles is Lancelot. If he isn't then someone else on this forum will be Lancelot.

I would put Charles in the role of Merlin. :)

I have mentioned that all of the first born males in my family going many generations have Arthur as a middle name, it is my middle name and my father's and my first son's and my grandfather's
,etc.,

My second son's middle name is Merlin.

Whiskey_Mystic
24th March 2011, 04:17
I would put Charles in the role of Merlin. :)

The ascended who was known as Merlin has nothing in common with Charles as Charles possesses knowledge, but neither wisdom nor mastery. This is my observation.

modwiz
24th March 2011, 04:23
Interesting thread. No account of Arthur should omit the role of Merlin; the two, as they say, are inextricably entwined.

Without meaning to go off-topic, the BBC a year or two ago produced a documentary Merlin: The Legend (which you can find on BitTorrent). It's a great doco.


Merlin is the archetypal wizard: Welsh and Celtic in origin, but with connections in Cornwall and middle Europe and, of course, the Arthurian legends. Merlin is clearly the distant relative of Dumbledore and all those weird and wonderful wizards that people our literature.

The documentary traces Merlin’s continuing presence in arts and culture across the world right up to the present day, through blockbuster films, videogames or New Age gatherings at Stonehenge. He offers something beyond mundane daily life. It’s magic. It’s irresistible.

I wonder how much Merlin is needed as a device to tell the Arthurian story. In other words, to what extent was King Arthur's legend spread without the presence of Merlin to tell it? Maybe one of you scholars can answer this.

I won't claim to be a scholar but I have some grounding in this subject. The Merlins would have been part of the druid tradition and as such have something to do with the bards who were history keepers by way of song and verse.

In many ways the Merlin would have played a role somewhat paralleling that of a bishop or cardinal to a king of a christian country. So as a guide to history it also fell on such types to record and/or narrate this history.

araucaria
24th March 2011, 06:37
We don't want kings, to be sure, any more than we want knights in shing armour, but we do want forum owners and members doing various different jobs. I think one of the stumbling blocks people face is all the seemingly contradictory info they are getting from others on very different assignments. I once used the analogy of the storm-tossed ship - some will be moving up while others are moving down, but it's still the same wave hitting the same boat. King Arthur is not a king in the ordinary sense of the word, he isactually someone else's squire (the word means stable lad!) and only picks the sword out of the stone to give to his knight.
Interestingly the name Arthur is linked to Arcturus, the Bear, and Arctic, the northern parts where the skies are governed by the Great Bear - and the Little Bear too, where resides the guide star, Polaris.

the trojan
24th March 2011, 07:03
im sorry folks but this and similar threads stink of desperation.
and being led up the garden path.

araucaria
24th March 2011, 07:14
On Merlin as story teller, in The Once and Future King, the story teller is another squire, Tom, alias the future Thomas Mallory, whom Arthur orders off the final battlefield precisely in order to live and tell the tale. In other words, he is Ishmael in Moby Dick, the only survivor of a catastrophe who is saved by a floating coffin.
The current situation may indeed be Arthurianly desperate, but the story-teller is neither being led or leading up any garden paths, just saying it how he sees it as a survivor.

Victoria Tintagel
24th March 2011, 07:49
THE LONGING FOR A NEW ARTHURIAN FIGURE
TO MAKE THINGS RIGHT – A NEW CAMELOT
Hey Avaloneans, well... isn't waiting for a Messias figure part of the old paradigm?
Waiting to make things right?
Is this what we are really waiting for? Uhmmm, don't think so, uh uh :)
Isn't king Arthur's life and works an example of a living Christ Consciousness being in training.....? :)
Wasn't his life a try out of this principle of freedom, equality and brotherhood?
Like was repeated in the French revolution? Tried out anew NOW?
We Avaloneans are all king Arthurs and queen Guineveres, lets live up to their example, what they stand for and see what happens?
The king and queen in us are the sovereign royal aspects in us, happy to return to a working mode.
Be in grace, Victoria Tintagel.

jorr lundstrom
24th March 2011, 08:33
THE LONGING FOR A NEW ARTHURIAN FIGURE
TO MAKE THINGS RIGHT – A NEW CAMELOT
Hey Avaloneans, well... isn't waiting for a Messias figure part of the old paradigm?
Waiting to make things right?
Is this what we are really waiting for? Uhmmm, don't think so, uh uh :)
Isn't king Arthur's life and works an example of a living Christ Consciousness being in training.....? :)
Wasn't his life a try out of this principle of freedom, equality and brotherhood?
Like was repeated in the French revolution? Tried out anew NOW?
We Avaloneans are all king Arthurs and queen Guineveres, lets live up to their example, what they stand for and see what happens?
The king and queen in us are the sovereign royal aspects in us, happy to return to a working mode.
Be in grace, Victoria Tintagel.

Dear Victoria. Be a little bit realistic please. This has to be in the context

of the old paradigm, as the new paradigm would demand stepping out

into the unknown and thats toooooooooo insecure. So when we have

in a democratic manner choosen the leading group we will have to

agree on some forcing rules and then we have to discuss how we shall

avoid to mention the unimportant issue of freedom. I think that as it is

the future of Gaia that is at stake maybye everybody could sacrifice

their freedom for the greater good of the cause. And then we just have to get

into actions. This way I think we could erase the PTB and take care of all

the necessary adjustments in the populations ourself. Just kidding I hope you

understand. But Ive seen such tendencies on PA lately and if we get our own

authority we wont need any enemy.;)

With authority freedom is impossible

jjl
24th March 2011, 08:45
I would put Charles in the role of Merlin. :)

The ascended who was known as Merlin has nothing in common with Charles as Charles possesses knowledge, but neither wisdom nor mastery. This is my observation.

I think Charles's master is Merlin

TimelessDimensions
24th March 2011, 09:16
You, me, and everyone on this planet are their own saviors

Peacelovinman
24th March 2011, 20:34
I would put Charles in the role of Merlin. :)

The ascended who was known as Merlin has nothing in common with Charles as Charles possesses knowledge, but neither wisdom nor mastery. This is my observation.

I think Charles's master is Merlin

As in a work of fiction...?

Chicodoodoo
24th March 2011, 22:20
We've been there and done that ten thousand times or more throughout human history. We need to evolve to the next level where the people, as a united and organized group, lead themselves. An Arthurian leader can only save us temporarily. It's like giving a man a fish -- you only feed him for one day. Teach him to fish, and he will feed himself for the rest of his life.

Victoria Tintagel
24th March 2011, 23:30
jorr lundstrom: Dear Victoria. Be a little bit realistic please. This has to be in the context
of the old paradigm, as the new paradigm would demand stepping out
into the unknown and thats toooooooooo insecure.

Oh well.....I am going about in a joking manner, I warn you jorr!
Hmm, uhmmmm, my deeeeeear jorr... :) Do you know to whom you're talking to?
Take care of my jester's arrows that hit "auchh" spots in visitors of my courtyard, the playground of Dutchess Tintagel of Avalon.
Hmmm? Be a little bit realistic? Ahem, in my noble nsho, the crux of our stepping into a next level of evolution is our surrendering
to the unknown. Three times hurray! It's part of the game ordeal...eh...deal :) There is no other way, I believe, because by doing
exactly THAT we will remember.... awaken to the truth of who we are. It's like creating the road, by placing one foot in front of the other.

What's the main thing that forces us to grow? All the unwelcome emotions and turmoil, chaos, disasters, in our lives.
We humans, including this Dutchess joker, are so very stubborn and downright stupid! We don't need to be an Arabic moslima to wear a veil, we are invited to tear that thing to pieces and be dare devils, looking in wonder to new vistas. Insecure? Of course it feels that way, sometimes....so what? Being vulnerable doesn't stop me, jorr, neither does insecurity or lack of control. The label weakness is just a conviction, nothing more. Life is so much more enjoyable, in that way. Like children are, not knowing at all what the next moment will bring, wonderful :)
Please...no more Messian figure... we have already internalised all those Messian qualities and that safety is in numbers. This is how I look at this "Longing for a new Arthurian figure" thread, jorr. Be in grace, Victoria Tintagel.

Icecold
25th March 2011, 06:52
Thank you. You've made your point.

Oh yes, Jorr beware of jokers with a sting in their tail. :jester:

Back to topic...... :focus:

linz2d
27th March 2011, 08:48
Similarly, ‘Round Tables‘ – jousting and dancing in imitation of Arthur and his knights – occurred at least 8 times in England between 1242 and 1345, including one held by Edward I in 1284 to celebrate his conquest of Wales and consequent ‘re-unification’ of Arthurian Britain. The Galfridian claim that Arthur conquered Scotland was also used by Edward I to provide legitimacy to his claims of English suzerainty over that region.

I find this amusing because it was said that King Robert the Bruce used the Arthurian legends and the classical tales to inspire his troops to fight against the English occupation and to reclaim Scotland. So it was used on both sides of the border.

Robert de Brus was a norman, not a Scot.

Well you are not wrong with calling him a Norman it is like calling Edward I Norman but Good King Robert is also 50% Gaelic from his mother, Marjorie Countess of Carrick. He was born in Scotland and spoke fluent Gaelic among other languages.

Before the death of King Alexander III of Scotland, England and Scottish nobility where on very friendly terms with many Scottish nobles having lands in England and many of the English nobility having lands in Scotland.

Lord Sidious
27th March 2011, 10:55
Similarly, ‘Round Tables‘ – jousting and dancing in imitation of Arthur and his knights – occurred at least 8 times in England between 1242 and 1345, including one held by Edward I in 1284 to celebrate his conquest of Wales and consequent ‘re-unification’ of Arthurian Britain. The Galfridian claim that Arthur conquered Scotland was also used by Edward I to provide legitimacy to his claims of English suzerainty over that region.

I find this amusing because it was said that King Robert the Bruce used the Arthurian legends and the classical tales to inspire his troops to fight against the English occupation and to reclaim Scotland. So it was used on both sides of the border.

Robert de Brus was a norman, not a Scot.

Well you are not wrong with calling him a Norman it is like calling Edward I Norman but Good King Robert is also 50% Gaelic from his mother, Marjorie Countess of Carrick. He was born in Scotland and spoke fluent Gaelic among other languages.

Before the death of King Alexander III of Scotland, England and Scottish nobility where on very friendly terms with many Scottish nobles having lands in England and many of the English nobility having lands in Scotland.

I would bet that if we tracked the norman bloodlines, they are connected.
What do you reckon?

linz2d
28th March 2011, 06:54
I would bet that if we tracked the norman bloodlines, they are connected.
What do you reckon?

Well yes and no, from what I understand almost all of the Scottish Nobility took on the customs of the Normans they also married their daughters to Norman nobility to attain alliances and visa versa. However customs are one thing and maintaining the bloodline through a male heir is another, what you find in Scotland is that we have a healthy mix of both Gaelic and Norman Surnames. So many Gaelic/Celtic bloodline still do survive. In the case of Robert the Bruce's mother the story goes she actually held Roberts father captive until he agreed to marry her.

Lettherebelight
15th April 2011, 10:08
Maybe all is not lost in shadow after all...

bPNoUxnXKaY

Thanks to Mikey1 for this.


Visit this site...

http://kingarthurslegacy.com/



I think Bill needs to talk to these gentlemen sometime soon!

witchy1
15th April 2011, 10:42
I was reading some old Alchemy texts the other day and came across a very old entry where speaking of King Arthur - they were describing the situation of his poisoning, and he subsequently died. The old Alchemists were called, who felt they could resurrect him and they started their procedures. Then a new set of Alchemeists came in, the original ones were tossed out and he did indeed rise him from the dead stronger than before as was anticipated. (no it wasnt Merlin) probably they used the philosophers stone. I'll see if I can find it ......... If this is the case then there wont be a grave - he lives on. :noidea: