PDA

View Full Version : Forgiveness



kinerkid
3rd May 2011, 02:39
I'd like to start a discussion on forgiveness. What enables you to forgive? What perimeters do you place on it? What does forgiveness mean to you?

loveandgratitude
3rd May 2011, 02:46
Always forgive your enemies - Nothing annoys them so much. ONLY JOKING (partially)

Paul
3rd May 2011, 02:50
Forgiveness depends at least on the underlying injustice no longer being perpetuated.

jookyle
3rd May 2011, 02:50
"I'm not big on forgiveness. My enemies are my enemies for a reason"

Anchor
3rd May 2011, 02:52
First try to answer the question about why you want to forgive in the first place.

Life is about experience, some of that ongoing cause and effect has consequences that linger in many formats for too long!

At some point recognition of the futility of allowing the remnants of artifacts from situations long past are worth cleaning up as they serve no further useful purpose and therefore act as a blockage - a kind of useless detritus that impedes further progress.

One cannot turn back the clock and simply undo what one subsequently appreciates should not have been done.

Recognition of that, in the moment of the recognition - creates the necessity for forgiveness.

Forgiveness stops the wheel of Karma - but there is a catch - mutual forgiveness of the self and the otherselves involved is a primary importance.

Forgiveness is hard to start with, but it gets easier, because as we move though these cycles of experience, we begin to master what it within us that resists the process.

I hope that is helpful.

Forgiveness is essential.

For some other perspectives I refer you to an archived thread from the predecessor of this forum that was started by illuminate, a shining star among us - who has not posted here for some time, but nevertheless, one from whom every post counted.

http://projectavalon.net/forum/showthread.php?t=19500

John..

kinerkid
3rd May 2011, 02:53
Forgiveness depends at least on the underlying injustice no longer being perpetuated.

Thanks for your response. I disagree actually. To me, forgiveness is something I do regardless of whether or not the other party offers it, makes amends, or changes their ways. It's something I do because in that action I find healing. I haven't found it helpful in life to say "I'll only forgive you if...."

astrid
3rd May 2011, 02:55
The weak can never forgive. Forgiveness is the attribute of the strong.

- Gandhi

Sowelu
3rd May 2011, 02:56
To ask for forgiveness one must be genuine.
Willing to admit that their actions (whatever they may be) (however they may have harmed) were wrong, Willing to swallow pride/ego thoughts and not try to word things half-heartedly
but also be willing to alter future behavoir to ensure it doesn't happen again.
Repeating the same hurtful actions voids the initial apology.

Also The apologizing/forgiving must be limited to those actually involved in the situation.
While it is nice to have friends who are on your frequency
having them fight battles for you, while not initially part of the war
Is disrespectful to both sides. I find it often aggrevates beyond the original "fall-out"
as people begin taking sides when not knowing the whole story,
standing by personal biasts/friendships.

At this time i stand in the middle, it is not my right nor duty to apologize or forgive anyone.
As i recognize this situation had nothing to do with my individual self.
I was sad to see familiar faces leave, but many left because they felt obligated
to stick by one side. Fighting battles that were not theirs.
If there are those who wish to return to avalon or even just make peace between sites, perhaps they should first remove mean posts/threads in other places and pm the person (or persons) they offended and offer a personalized true to heart apology.

I would like to see the genuine apologies happen. i would like to see unity,
but this isn't up to me as this is not my battle.
Thankyou

Paul
3rd May 2011, 02:57
Forgiveness depends at least on the underlying injustice no longer being perpetuated.

Thanks for your response. I disagree actually. To me, forgiveness is something I do regardless of whether or not the other party offers it, makes amends, or changes their ways. It's something I do because in that action I find healing. I haven't found it helpful in life to say "I'll only forgive you if...."

That you may well offer. You might forgive those who are harming you, even as they continue to do so.

But it would be suspicious for those who continue to harm you to ask for forgiveness, by way of covering up their continuing harm to you.

loveandgratitude
3rd May 2011, 02:58
I think the key words in Paul's statement is "NO LONGER BEING PERPETUATED"

It is very hard to forgive someone who continually punches you in the nose. If you ask them to stop, one can move on to forgiving and healing. If they do not stop, you cannot heal as you are continually bleeding all over the place.

Normalguy31
3rd May 2011, 02:59
Forgiveness is the key to healing yourself.

Forgiveness is what causes peace internally first, so then you may be able to help someone else forgive themselves on their journey to peace. IMO.

Forgiveness is hard to do, you have to admit that you have done something wrong. Taking that wrong, and learning from it is forgiveness.

This could be the hardest thing to do in this little ride called life. The ego is a tricky bastard sometimes :)

I hope the slander at nexus, whatever it may be I haven't checked it out, will be taken off so we can move on, and continue to grow again.

Then the healing choir we all yearn for may be allowed to continue. This is my wish anyways.....

Much love to all, lets get on with the fun in the forums again!

Forgive, and forget that is the key

kinerkid
3rd May 2011, 02:59
Forgiveness stops the wheel of Karma - but there is a catch - mutual forgiveness of the self and the otherselves involved is a primary importance.

Forgiveness is hard to start with, but it gets easier, because as we move though these cycles of experience, we begin to master what it within us that resists the process.

I hope that is helpful.

Forgiveness is essential.

For some other perspectives I refer you to an archived thread from the predecessor of this forum that was started by illuminate, a shining star among us - who has not posted here for some time, but nevertheless, one from whom every post counted.

http://projectavalon.net/forum/showthread.php?t=19500

John..

Thanks so much John! I find this post very inspiring. :)

Normalguy31
3rd May 2011, 03:02
Forgiveness depends at least on the underlying injustice no longer being perpetuated.

Thanks for your response. I disagree actually. To me, forgiveness is something I do regardless of whether or not the other party offers it, makes amends, or changes their ways. It's something I do because in that action I find healing. I haven't found it helpful in life to say "I'll only forgive you if...."

Beautiful answer, I feel the exact same way. Even as hard as it is to do.

astrid
3rd May 2011, 03:03
Forgiveness also doesn't mean the you condone the behaviour, that's what people often
fail to grasp. I really like Greg Braden's take on this subject.

He helped me so much with my own road to forgiveness.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bt2D53UYI4k

kinerkid
3rd May 2011, 03:03
Forgiveness is the key to healing yourself.

Forgiveness is what causes peace internally first, so then you may be able to help someone else forgive themselves on their journey to peace. IMO.

Forgiveness is hard to do, you have to admit that you have done something wrong. Taking that wrong, and learning from it is forgiveness.

This could be the hardest thing to do in this little ride called life. The ego is a tricky bastard sometimes :)

I hope the slander at nexus, whatever it may be I haven't checked it out, will be taken off so we can move on, and continue to grow again.

Then the healing choir we all yearn for may be allowed to continue. This is my wish anyways.....

Much love to all, lets get on with the fun in the forums again!

Forgive, and forget that is the key

One step at a time. :) Forgiveness is a journey just like all else.

Paul
3rd May 2011, 03:08
Beautiful answer, I feel the exact same way. Even as hard as it is to do.

If you are spiritually stronger than I am, you may well be able to forgive, even as the injustice continues against you.

But it would be disingenuous for me to ask for forgiveness as a distraction from my continued injustice toward you. And it would further be disingenuous for someone else to get you to ask for that forgiveness, as a distraction from their continued injustice that they were perpetrating.

Normalguy31
3rd May 2011, 03:09
Forgiveness is the key to healing yourself.

Forgiveness is what causes peace internally first, so then you may be able to help someone else forgive themselves on their journey to peace. IMO.

Forgiveness is hard to do, you have to admit that you have done something wrong. Taking that wrong, and learning from it is forgiveness.

This could be the hardest thing to do in this little ride called life. The ego is a tricky bastard sometimes :)

I hope the slander at nexus, whatever it may be I haven't checked it out, will be taken off so we can move on, and continue to grow again.

Then the healing choir we all yearn for may be allowed to continue. This is my wish anyways.....

Much love to all, lets get on with the fun in the forums again!

Forgive, and forget that is the key

One step at a time. :) Forgiveness is a journey just like all else.

Very true, seems like we have hit a pretty serious rut in our pathway though. What's the next step? Have any members here, that are members at nexus asked for these things to be taken away? That is a practical first step I think. Just making suggestions, take them for what you will.

Teakai
3rd May 2011, 03:12
I really love the saying about forgiveness which goes - "To not forgive someone is like drinking poison and expecting the other person to die."

Or something like that :)

Normalguy31
3rd May 2011, 03:12
Beautiful answer, I feel the exact same way. Even as hard as it is to do.

If you are spiritually stronger than I am, you may well be able to forgive, even as the injustice continues against you.

But it would be disingenuous for me to ask for forgiveness as a distraction from my continued injustice toward you. And it would further be disingenuous for someone else to get you to ask for that forgiveness, as a distraction from their continued injustice that they were perpetrating.

I wish I knew how you felt. Being in the position you are in it is a little easier for me to say that than you, I am sure. What can we do? Have there been any response from nexus about taking these posts down?

Paul
3rd May 2011, 03:15
I wish I knew how you felt. Being in the position you are in it is a little easier for me to say that than you, I am sure. What can we do? Have there been any response from nexus about taking these posts down?

As I stated in my closing posts:
There presently resides, in public view, on the nexus.2012info.ca website, defamation (slander and libel) of Bill Ryan, Inelia Benz, and Project Avalon.

These individuals and this website value their public reputation, and rightfully so.

This defamation needs to be removed from public view.

truthseekerdan
3rd May 2011, 03:17
Those we forgive return forgiveness. Those we attack, hold it against us. Moreover, if they do not hold it against us, we will think they do. There is no way to offer something positive or negative, without some form of return, positive or negative. To be guilt free is to know nothing can hurt us, and by refusing to allow someone to hurt us, we are refusing them the opportunity to think they can hurt us. When two parties do not hurt each other, they love each other, whether they know it or not.

Love is born of understanding and forgiveness, while forgiveness itself is born of suffering. We need to experience the whole spectrum of feelings and emotions to be human. As we begin to understand more of ourselves, we become more human. By becoming more human, we become more balanced. By becoming more balanced, we are able to handle all aspects of our life in a way that results in the greatest good for us as an individual and as a part of the collective whole.

Namaste ~ Dan

kinerkid
3rd May 2011, 03:17
Very true, seems like we have hit a pretty serious rut in our pathway though. What's the next step? Have any members here, that are members at nexus asked for these things to be taken away? That is a practical first step I think. Just making suggestions, take them for what you will.

Another suggestion is to remove your own personal attachment from what other people say. Those are their words. You can choose your response or lack of response to their words. Just another suggestion. There is much more that we have in common, than we have in difference which Dennis and other have pointed out.

Normalguy31
3rd May 2011, 03:22
I wish I knew how you felt. Being in the position you are in it is a little easier for me to say that than you, I am sure. What can we do? Have there been any response from nexus about taking these posts down?

As I stated in my closing posts:
There presently resides, in public view, on the nexus.2012info.ca website, defamation (slander and libel) of Bill Ryan, Inelia Benz, and Project Avalon.

These individuals and this website value their public reputation, and rightfully so.

This defamation needs to be removed from public view.

Have any of the mods, or Richard or anyone responded to that statement though? I saw someone mention they we're using the guise of non-censorship as justification for leaving it up. What do you think it will take for these things to be taken away?

If I may ask, if not that is fine, what exactly are the posts that are in question?

Anchor
3rd May 2011, 03:27
It was a lot to expect this thread to remain at an abstract level,

There are more things that require forgiveness, than comments on any forum.

I really want this thread to stay open - I was so pleased to see it start.

However, I worry that if it turns into a contest of Avalon's will over that of another it will not stand. As such it would not be an effective step in the process. [ I am sure that the process has started on that score - those with any sense or feeling in these matters will be able to discern it clearly ].

Understanding the nature of forgiveness - or taking the opportunity to fine tune ones thinking on the matter IS an excellent thing, and so I really hope we can avoid the proverbial trip-wire until the time is ready for the next leap of progress.

Forgiveness is no substitute or reason to countenance abusive behavior, but it is a certainty that the latter will ultimately require the former.

Namaste

John..

Paul
3rd May 2011, 03:31
Another suggestion is to remove your own personal attachment from what other people say.
For the unkind words on this and other sites about myself, that is worthy advice. I am not a public figure. If I find an accusation of someone annoys me (even if "rightfully" so) I will gain most by looking inside myself and removing my unhealthy attachment to whatever they're accusing me of.

The success and livelihood of those persons and institutions in the public arena depends on their reputation. Even if defamation causes them no personal upset, it can cause them serious harm in their public endeavors. They have need to protect their reputation that people living more private lives, such as myself, don't have.

¤=[Post Update]=¤


Have any of the mods, or Richard or anyone responded to that statement though? I saw someone mention they we're using the guise of non-censorship as justification for leaving it up. What do you think it will take for these things to be taken away?

If I may ask, if not that is fine, what exactly are the posts that are in question?

This is not the proper place and time, nor I the proper individual, to respond to your questions.

For the moment, actions will speak louder than words.

¤=[Post Update]=¤


It was a lot to expect this thread to remain at an abstract level,
Indeed.

For now this thread remains open. But it carries with it the risk that I see closure as the best option.

kinerkid
3rd May 2011, 03:32
Thanks Paul for keeping this thread open. I would like to ask everyone, in their experience, what baby steps were they initially able to make towards forgiving someone who has wronged you?

Lifesong
3rd May 2011, 03:33
Forgiveness is simple and easy.
It is a choice.
It is letting go of the fight.
It is choosing love.
It is the Golden Rule in action.
It is turning away from pride.
No conditions are necessary, as there's no control to be had, other than over oneself in choosing to forgive or not.

We must strive to keep choosing peace or risk remaining a race at war, both macro and micro.

Forgive someone anything, and feel peace wash over you. Forgive yourself and feel peace settle in to stay awhile, for sometimes we only think that we've been wronged or shorted when truly...what have we lost? Our expectations? Well, I think expectations can be a very wide road and another subject entirely. :)

Forgiveness allows respect for ourselves and one another, it acknowledges our individual personal power and our collective respect for our inability to control one another.

Forgiveness is strength.


- In Peace

Anchor
3rd May 2011, 03:34
Offering an olive branch. Instant rectification of all "who said what" probably isn't going to happen over night. But if each side take one baby step towards each other, that is progress towards reconciliation and forgiveness. Any suggestions towards that idea that don't come across intentionally or unintentionally as demands?

For someone asking questions about forgiveness, you seem to know more about it than you first let on :)

John..

Normalguy31
3rd May 2011, 03:37
It was a lot to expect this thread to remain at an abstract level,

There are more things that require forgiveness, than comments on any forum.

I really want this thread to stay open - I was so pleased to see it start.

However, I worry that if it turns into a contest of Avalon's will over that of another it will not stand. As such it would not be an effective step in the process. [ I am sure that the process has started on that score - those with any sense or feeling in these matters will be able to discern it clearly ].

Understanding the nature of forgiveness - or taking the opportunity to fine tune ones thinking on the matter IS an excellent thing, and so I really hope we can avoid the proverbial trip-wire until the time is ready for the next leap of progress.

Forgiveness is no substitute for countenancing abusive behavior, but it is a certainty that the latter will ultimately require the former.

Namaste

John..

I would be more than happy to carry on a philosophical discussion on forgiveness. I was just trying to help I guess. It's probably not my place to try, and fix things. I don't really know whats going on behind the scenes. It came from a place of love, and hope more specifically.

For now abstract will do :)

¤=[Post Update]=¤



Another suggestion is to remove your own personal attachment from what other people say.
For the unkind words on this and other sites about myself, that is worthy advice. I am not a public figure. If I find an accusation of someone annoys me (even if "rightfully" so) I will gain most by looking inside myself and removing my unhealthy attachment to whatever they're accusing me of.

The success and livelihood of those persons and institutions in the public arena depends on their reputation. Even if defamation causes them no personal upset, it can cause them serious harm in their public endeavors. They have need to protect their reputation that people living more private lives, such as myself, don't have.

¤=[Post Update]=¤


Have any of the mods, or Richard or anyone responded to that statement though? I saw someone mention they we're using the guise of non-censorship as justification for leaving it up. What do you think it will take for these things to be taken away?

If I may ask, if not that is fine, what exactly are the posts that are in question?

This is not the proper place and time, nor I the proper individual, to respond to your questions.

For the moment, actions will speak louder than words.

¤=[Post Update]=¤


It was a lot to expect this thread to remain at an abstract level,
Indeed.

For now this thread remains open. But it carries with it the risk that I see closure as the best option.

Thank you for you words my friend. Exactly what I wanted to hear. Good luck in your endeavors. Thank you for keeping this open.

Nasu
3rd May 2011, 03:38
I'd like to start a discussion on forgiveness. What enables you to forgive? What perimeters do you place on it? What does forgiveness mean to you?

In my opinion forgiveness is acceptance of what is or was. N

Flash
3rd May 2011, 03:40
i must be from another world or another planet.

Forgiveness is unconditional no, and you don't expect anything in return.

However, when someone or a group strech their hands towards you for peace, you should accept it, shouldn't you? Accept the peace.

Do not retaliate by doing stuff like closing threads, which is as good as closing up to peace. This is conditional peace, where is the forgiveness in it?

Accept the hand for peace, build up a little trust and then ask for fairness and the difficult post to be removed. Don't act in turn like the brute because you think you have been brutalised.

Closing theads seems to me like spitting on them once they tried a gesture, as incompetent the gesture may seem, they tried. Open your heart, don't close genuine threads - I am not even on Nexus and yet I found their gesture outstanding. Not as much for our.

Now you MUST understand Israel and Palestine. A continuous back and forth of "we retaliate" on both sides and very conditional forgiveness, "only if the other does as I want". With a weaker one often going under of course.

Peace means forgiveness and opening up, not closing up.

kinerkid
3rd May 2011, 03:41
Forgiveness is no substitute or reason to countenance abusive behavior, but it is a certainty that the latter will ultimately require the former[/b].



And it is a certainty that the former is ultimately stronger than the latter.

truthseekerdan
3rd May 2011, 03:41
Forgiveness takes us on a journey that enables us to understand self-healing. When we forgive, we circumvent a situation that could become unbearable. Forgiveness empowers us to eliminate anger and resentment, allowing enormous amounts of positive energy to change our mental and physical well being enough to dispose of stress, nervousness, restlessness, sadness, depression, anger and any associated trauma. Forgiveness and healing are aspects of the same reality. Forgiveness removes all energy blockages that prevent healing energy from flowing. Forgiveness is essential and possible under all circumstance, regardless of how much we hurt.

We have the power to free ourselves and to free others of any interpersonal guilt. Commit to forgive and the surfacing of freedom and empowerment will lead towards a positive future with others. For this to occur it is necessary for us to let go of our identity as victims or prisoners of destructive energy. All forgiveness is an act of unconditional love. All forgiveness is self-forgiveness. Without forgiveness, there is no future. Not to forgive is to be imprisoned by the past. Forgiveness is reclaiming power over our own life. As we give the gift of forgiveness, we ourselves are healed.

Dennis Leahy
3rd May 2011, 03:41
Does anyone else here have kids? If yes, you have run into the situation where the child does something wrong, fires off an "I'm sorry", and shortly thereafter does the same thing again. Every parent faces this. What do you say to your kid, to help them understand the overall big picture of altering one's behavior, the act of an apology, and the act of forgiveness? Seriously, not theoretically, what have you as an individual said to your kid, to try to help them learn and grow into well-adjusted, compassionate adults?

(Paraphrasing into adult language) I tell them the apology is only meaningful if they are present and sincere when they say the words, and have a sincere intent to change the behavior. That's the apology part of the apology --> forgiveness dynamic.

As for the forgiveness end of the dynamic, let's visualize a real-world example of some sort of bad behavior between two kids. Friends. Friends that used to play together nicely, but have now gotten into a loop where one kid keeps doing something mean to the other kid. Now, be honest. Tell me how you, as a loving parent, talk to the kid who has been at the receiving end of the bad behavior, and who has already forgiven, but who continues to be at the receiving end of the bad behavior. Then, what are you going to do tomorrow, and the next day, when the kids want to play, and the pattern of bad behavior was never stopped?

Let's step up the example in severity, intensity, and duration: your friend is being beaten by her husband. You're pretty damn sure she will be beaten again tomorrow. Do you tell her to go home and forgive her husband? Really? If she says she forgives him, yet again, and goes back to him again, do you see her attitude as healthy and enlightened? Really?

I know that it may be possible to imagine ourselves as Christ-conscious beings, forgiving while nails are being driven in, but the real-world truth is that forgiveness does not stand alone if it is in a dynamic and repeating situation.

Dennis

kinerkid
3rd May 2011, 03:45
Does anyone else here have kids? If yes, you have run into the situation where the child does something wrong, fires off an "I'm sorry", and shortly thereafter does the same thing again. Every parent faces this. What do you say to your kid, to help them understand the overall big picture of altering one's behavior, the act of an apology, and the act of forgiveness? Seriously, not theoretically, what have you as an individual said to your kid, to try to help them learn and grow into well-adjusted, compassionate adults?

(Paraphrasing into adult language) I tell them the apology is only meaningful if they are present and sincere when they say the words, and have a sincere intent to change the behavior. That's the apology part of the apology --> forgiveness dynamic.

As for the forgiveness end of the dynamic, let's visualize a real-world example of some sort of bad behavior between two kids. Friends. Friends that used to play together nicely, but have now gotten into a loop where one kid keeps doing something mean to the other kid. Now, be honest. Tell me how you, as a loving parent, talk to the kid who has been at the receiving end of the bad behavior, and who has already forgiven, but who continues to be at the receiving end of the bad behavior. Then, what are you going to do tomorrow, and the next day, when the kids want to play, and the pattern of bad behavior was never stopped?

Let's step up the example in severity, intensity, and duration: your friend is being beaten by her husband. You're pretty damn sure she will be beaten again tomorrow. Do you tell her to go home and forgive her husband? Really? If she says she forgives him, yet again, and goes back to him again, do you see her attitude as healthy and enlightened? Really?

I know that it may be possible to imagine ourselves as Christ-conscious beings, forgiving while nails are being driven in, but the real-world truth is that forgiveness does not stand alone if it is in a dynamic and repeating situation.

Dennis

The first effort has been made. Whether its complete enough is the question for you I think. What further harm can come by making an effort back and seeing where it leads?

Flash
3rd May 2011, 03:59
Does anyone else here have kids? If yes, you have run into the situation where the child does something wrong, fires off an "I'm sorry", and shortly thereafter does the same thing again. Every parent faces this. What do you say to your kid, to help them understand the overall big picture of altering one's behavior, the act of an apology, and the act of forgiveness? Seriously, not theoretically, what have you as an individual said to your kid, to try to help them learn and grow into well-adjusted, compassionate adults?(Paraphrasing into adult language)

I tell them the apology is only meaningful if they are present and sincere when they say the words, and have a sincere intent to change the behavior. That's the apology part of the apology --> forgiveness dynamic.

As for the forgiveness end of the dynamic, let's visualize a real-world example of some sort of bad behavior between two kids. Friends. Friends that used to play together nicely, but have now gotten into a loop where one kid keeps doing something mean to the other kid. Now, be honest. Tell me how you, as a loving parent, talk to the kid who has been at the receiving end of the bad behavior, and who has already forgiven, but who continues to be at the receiving end of the bad behavior. Then, what are you going to do tomorrow, and the next day, when the kids want to play, and the pattern of bad behavior was never stopped?

Let's step up the example in severity, intensity, and duration: your friend is being beaten by her husband. You're pretty damn sure she will be beaten again tomorrow. Do you tell her to go home and forgive her husband? Really? If she says she forgives him, yet again, and goes back to him again, do you see her attitude as healthy and enlightened? Really?

I know that it may be possible to imagine ourselves as Christ-conscious beings, forgiving while nails are being driven in, but the real-world truth is that forgiveness does not stand alone if it is in a dynamic and repeating situation.

Dennis

I cannot agree with what was done on Avalon side. If you want to take the kids analogy, of course asking for forgiveness has to be sincere - as it seems to have been from Nexus. Of course you wont' want the brute behavior to be repeated and will try to stop it.

Are you going in turn to beat up your kid for him to stop beating up his brother? Probably not Dennis. You will ask to stop, give him a chance to stop, then ask again and eplain about fairness or heartfull beings..

We had here a first big gesture for stopping the nasty whole thing of bitching against each other. What is done in return is spanking the "kids" and cutting the relationship (cutting threads). Is this good parenthood?

And nobody are kids here (although sometimese we behave like kids, one cannot adress the situation as if we were, because we are not). Wrong analogy Dennis.

Palestine and Israel seems much more appropriate in this case. All adult being buckheads if you want my opinion. Read my post above.

Flash


Re: Forgiveness
i must be from another world or another planet.

Forgiveness is unconditional no, and you don't expect anything in return.

However, when someone or a group strech their hands towards you for peace, you should accept it, shouldn't you? Accept the peace.

Do not retaliate by doing stuff like closing threads, which is as good as closing up to peace. This is conditional peace, where is the forgiveness in it?

Accept the hand for peace, build up a little trust and then ask for fairness and the difficult post to be removed. Don't act in turn like the brute because you think you have been brutalised.

Closing theads seems to me like spitting on them once they tried a gesture, as incompetent the gesture may seem, they tried. Open your heart, don't close genuine threads - I am not even on Nexus and yet I found their gesture outstanding. Not as much for our.

Now you MUST understand Israel and Palestine. A continuous back and forth of "we retaliate" on both sides and very conditional forgiveness, "only if the other does as I want". With a weaker one often going under of course.

Peace means forgiveness and opening up, not closing up.

Dennis Leahy
3rd May 2011, 03:59
The first effort has been made. Whether its complete enough is the question for you I think. What further harm can come by making an effort back and seeing where it leads?

Well, I thought I just gave some honest, real-world examples that forgiveness is part of a dynamic, and that forgiveness all by itself in an ongoing unresolved situation, is an unbalanced equation with an unhealthy outcome.

Did you read my examples? Are you going to leave the kid who is the recipient of the mean behavior in the sandbox with the badly behaving kid that has made no indication they will change? Are you sending your abused friend back for another beating?

Dennis


====================



I cannot agree with what was done on Avalon side. If you want to take the kids analogy, of course asking for forgiveness has to be sincere - as it seems to have been from Nexus. Of course you wont' want the brute behavior to be repeated and will try to stop it.

Are you going in turn to beat up your kid for him to stop beating up his brother? Probably not Dennis. You will ask to stop, give him a chance to stop, then ask again and eplain about fairness or heartfull beings..

We had here a first big gesture for stopping the nasty whole thing of bitching against each other. What is done in return is spanking the "kids" and cutting the relationship (cutting threads). Is this good parenthood?

And nobody are kids here (although sometimese we behave like kids, one cannot adress the situation as if we were, because we are not). Wrong analogy Dennis.

Palestine and Israel seems much more appropriate in this case. All adult being buckheads if you want my opinion. Read my post above.

Flash


Re: Forgiveness
i must be from another world or another planet.

Forgiveness is unconditional no, and you don't expect anything in return.

However, when someone or a group strech their hands towards you for peace, you should accept it, shouldn't you? Accept the peace.

Do not retaliate by doing stuff like closing threads, which is as good as closing up to peace. This is conditional peace, where is the forgiveness in it?

Accept the hand for peace, build up a little trust and then ask for fairness and the difficult post to be removed. Don't act in turn like the brute because you think you have been brutalised.

Closing theads seems to me like spitting on them once they tried a gesture, as incompetent the gesture may seem, they tried. Open your heart, don't close genuine threads - I am not even on Nexus and yet I found their gesture outstanding. Not as much for our.

Now you MUST understand Israel and Palestine. A continuous back and forth of "we retaliate" on both sides and very conditional forgiveness, "only if the other does as I want". With a weaker one often going under of course.

Peace means forgiveness and opening up, not closing up.
Flash, I know you're beaming out loving energy. It is more than noticed, it is appreciated and welcomed.

As I said in my long reply in the thread that John/Anchor started, I really am thrilled that there is a sincere attempt at apology, and I have high hopes that there will be reconciliation.

If you want to put this in terms of Palestine and Israel (which is in itself a dangerous example, as I believe the Israeli government is clearly 99% of the problem), then this gesture is kind of like a group of citizens of one country bringing an olive branch to citizens of the other country. A loving, sweet, sincere gesture, but the governments need to sign the treaty, not the citizens. Some Israeli citizens might say, "we are sorry our government is waging genocide on you. Please forgive us." And the group of Palestinians might say, "we recognize your sincerity. Please make your government stop bombing us! We want to forgive your country, but we are being killed and pushed from our land - every day it continues!"

Please consider the threads that have been closed to be "temporarily closed", awaiting the outcome from the Nexus admin team. If they refuse to remove the slander and innuendo against Bill and Inelia, they dishonor the group of sincere Nexian "Peace Emissaries", and make their sincere gesture fall flat. The Nexus admins know I'm speaking the truth here. The idea that Bill and Inelia will completely forgive all the harm that has been done to them, after the slander and innuendo is removed and ceases, is completely up to them. In my estimation, it would be incredibly magnanimous, considering how many people have already been exposed to the poisonous words. I would hope that if this gesture originates in the hearts of the Nexus admins, that they would also ask the members who have publicly posted the poisonous material to offer Bill and Inelia a sincere public apology.

Dennis

Normalguy31
3rd May 2011, 04:02
Does anyone else here have kids? If yes, you have run into the situation where the child does something wrong, fires off an "I'm sorry", and shortly thereafter does the same thing again. Every parent faces this. What do you say to your kid, to help them understand the overall big picture of altering one's behavior, the act of an apology, and the act of forgiveness? Seriously, not theoretically, what have you as an individual said to your kid, to try to help them learn and grow into well-adjusted, compassionate adults?

(Paraphrasing into adult language) I tell them the apology is only meaningful if they are present and sincere when they say the words, and have a sincere intent to change the behavior. That's the apology part of the apology --> forgiveness dynamic.

As for the forgiveness end of the dynamic, let's visualize a real-world example of some sort of bad behavior between two kids. Friends. Friends that used to play together nicely, but have now gotten into a loop where one kid keeps doing something mean to the other kid. Now, be honest. Tell me how you, as a loving parent, talk to the kid who has been at the receiving end of the bad behavior, and who has already forgiven, but who continues to be at the receiving end of the bad behavior. Then, what are you going to do tomorrow, and the next day, when the kids want to play, and the pattern of bad behavior was never stopped?

Let's step up the example in severity, intensity, and duration: your friend is being beaten by her husband. You're pretty damn sure she will be beaten again tomorrow. Do you tell her to go home and forgive her husband? Really? If she says she forgives him, yet again, and goes back to him again, do you see her attitude as healthy and enlightened? Really?

I know that it may be possible to imagine ourselves as Christ-conscious beings, forgiving while nails are being driven in, but the real-world truth is that forgiveness does not stand alone if it is in a dynamic and repeating situation.

Dennis

I think the only thing you can do is try to help the husband. Coming from a person who is a little more enlightened do you not feel it is your duty to try, and heal the pain the husband has received that would cause him to act this way? I do. What else can you do?

We are either filled with compassion, or we are empty.

NancyV
3rd May 2011, 04:05
I have no problem with forgiveness because I expect people to act exactly as who they are. Why should I be attached to them being themselves? I'm not. If they make personal attacks against me I normally laugh at them or sometimes get pissed off for a short time. But there is nothing to "forgive". They are being true to themselves. If I don't like who they are I won't be around them and if necessary I will tell them to go away (ban them) from my life.

This also translates to me not needing to "forgive" myself for past actions and words. I don't need anyone to forgive me and I don't need to forgive myself. Everything I have done and said was what I was feeling in the moment and who I was at that time. It seems counter productive to me to reinforce blame and shame on yourself for things you have done in the past. I like to recognize when I am being stupid or disgusting, then change it in the future. Mistakes and misjudgments are normal, not "sinful".

If someone was continually slandering and attacking me I would not even consider any request for forgiveness as it would be ridiculous to even engage in the concept of forgiveness with their behavior remaining the same, especially if it's in public view and they will not remove it. (this is hypothetical of course) LOL... If they stop the attacks and remove damaging and slanderous statements, we can then proceed with life as normal.

I would not choose in the future to be around a person who attacked me in such a manner because I would now know their character and how they operate in certain situations. That doesn't mean I wouldn't "forgive" them, it would just mean that I'm not interested in having their energy in my life. It is not my business how they act but it is my responsibility if I allow them in my life after knowing who they are and how they act in certain situations. Certainly I often give people a second or 3rd chance but they must always continue being who they are. So I blame no one but myself if I have someone in my life who continues to attempt to either abuse me or suck energy from me.

I suppose my concept of forgiveness comes from both traveling out of body, merging with the Source and also a near death experience I had. There was absolutely no forgiveness for anything ever needed! The concept of forgiveness was never even raised in any situation on any plane of existence! I think it is only here in 3D where we think we need forgiveness or need to give it. It doesn't mean I never say "I'm sorry", but it does mean that I don't need or desire forgiveness. The person to whom I say "I'm sorry" may stay angry with me or not. That is entirely up to them as I do not require their forgiveness. I say I am sorry for me, not to get some kind of absolution from them.

Nancy
PS: an example of when I say "I'm sorry". Just as I was writing this post I burnt the cornbread I was making for my husband. He came out, saw it and I said "I'm sorry!" in a pathetic funny little voice, then we both laughed and he said "sh*t happens". :)

kinerkid
3rd May 2011, 04:06
Well, I thought I just gave some honest, real-world examples that forgiveness is part of a dynamic, and that forgiveness all by itself in an ongoing unresolved situation, is an unbalanced equation with an unhealthy outcome.

Did you read my examples? Are you going to leave the kid who is the recipient of the mean behavior in the sandbox with the badly behaving kid that has made no indication they will change? Are you sending your abused friend back for another beating?

Dennis

I understand. Do you think dialogue would be a good initial step towards starting that dynamic? Especially in this virtual forum world we reside in as Nexus and Avalon? Perhaps it is the first stepping stone, leading to actions?

Flash
3rd May 2011, 04:08
The first effort has been made. Whether its complete enough is the question for you I think. What further harm can come by making an effort back and seeing where it leads?

Well, I thought I just gave some honest, real-world examples that forgiveness is part of a dynamic, and that forgiveness all by itself in an ongoing unresolved situation, is an unbalanced equation with an unhealthy outcome.

Did you read my examples? Are you going to leave the kid who is the recipient of the mean behavior in the sandbox with the badly behaving kid that has made no indication they will change? Are you sending your abused friend back for another beating?

Dennis

Wrong Dennis, in the present case, the "kids" had made a very strong indication that they wanted change and peace. And this is independent of who did what and who started and who might continue. Forgiveness should be given and it is not conditionnal, this even if one has to remove himself from the bullying party.

Once the bullies says I am sorry, do you kik him back? Or do you say ok, don't ever try again, and please be fair, remove the posts. Menacing and controlling adults behavior never really works, this is the "fear" tactic that we know too well. The new higher realm tactic has nothing to do with fear and conditions.

Just try it Dennis and see, i am sure you will be surprised and may create new more useful set of beliefs.

Lord Sidious
3rd May 2011, 04:08
Beautiful answer, I feel the exact same way. Even as hard as it is to do.

If you are spiritually stronger than I am, you may well be able to forgive, even as the injustice continues against you.

But it would be disingenuous for me to ask for forgiveness as a distraction from my continued injustice toward you. And it would further be disingenuous for someone else to get you to ask for that forgiveness, as a distraction from their continued injustice that they were perpetrating.

It could also be seen as a vehicle to travel to resolution in.


Thanks Paul for keeping this thread open. I would like to ask everyone, in their experience, what baby steps were they initially able to make towards forgiving someone who has wronged you?

I am not someone who is experienced in this area, that being the case, I would say that the first thing is to take the clenched fist, turn it into a hand and extend that in peace to your ''adversary'' and see what their response is.
If they attempt to smack your face you can turn the hand into a shuto strike quickly. :p



Offering an olive branch. Instant rectification of all "who said what" probably isn't going to happen over night. But if each side take one baby step towards each other, that is progress towards reconciliation and forgiveness. Any suggestions towards that idea that don't come across intentionally or unintentionally as demands?

For someone asking questions about forgiveness, you seem to know more about it than you first let on :)

John..

I am sure you know this already, but just because someone asks the question, doesn't necessarily extroplate out that they don't know the answer.
I do that all the time to get people to examine an issue.



The first effort has been made. Whether its complete enough is the question for you I think. What further harm can come by making an effort back and seeing where it leads?

Well, I thought I just gave some honest, real-world examples that forgiveness is part of a dynamic, and that forgiveness all by itself in an ongoing unresolved situation, is an unbalanced equation with an unhealthy outcome.

Did you read my examples? Are you going to leave the kid who is the recipient of the mean behavior in the sandbox with the badly behaving kid that has made no indication they will change? Are you sending your abused friend back for another beating?

Dennis

Your examples, even though they are well thought out, are only a few colours of the rainbow.
When people are in conflict, there are many parts of the dynamic.
A huge part of the problem is figuring out the dynamic and then applying the solution.

Paul
3rd May 2011, 04:13
Closing theads seems to me like spitting on them once they tried a gesture, as incompetent the gesture may seem, they tried. Open your heart, don't close genuine threads

I trust that the motives of those whose apologies appeared in the original Healing Choir thread were all or mostly honorable. That is what I and some other mods noticed when we thanked Sepia's opening post there. That is also why I look forward to re-opening those threads, once another matter is attended to first.

But then it became clear to several of us that I, the other mods, and those posting or quoted in those threads had become unwitting participants in a charm offensive, deceitfully intended to give cover for an ongoing injustice that was continuing to harm the reputations of some individuals in the public eye.

So the charm offensive had to be placed on hold, which I did by closing those threads for now. The threads were well intended healing at one level, but were enabling the perpetuation of harm at another more important level.

w1ndmill
3rd May 2011, 04:17
I'd like to start a discussion on forgiveness. What enables you to forgive? What perimeters do you place on it? What does forgiveness mean to you?

A few years ago my father had a heart attack and while we were driving to the hospital I realised there was a good chance that he would die and leave me with enormous feelings of resentment and rage because of how he used to treat me as a child. (I think I expected that one day he would realise what he had done and would apologise to me.) On that car journey, which took about an hour and a half, I had a great battle with myself and finally caved. I realised that in the end none of it mattered and that it was I who had to move on. What did matter was that I was rushing to the hospital to see my father whom I loved.

In my forgiveness I went from being a hurt child to an adult.

Paul
3rd May 2011, 04:21
Once the bullies says I am sorry, do you kik him back? Or do you say ok, don't ever try again, and please be fair, remove the posts. If he is still kicking the other child while he enlists some others into issuing apologies so as to distract the victim's guardian ... you do not focus on honoring the apologies., for no matter how well intended, they are being unwittingly offered in deceit. You move to stop the kicking.

Flash
3rd May 2011, 04:23
Closing theads seems to me like spitting on them once they tried a gesture, as incompetent the gesture may seem, they tried. Open your heart, don't close genuine threads

I trust that the motives of those whose apologies appeared in the original Healing Choir thread were all or mostly honorable. That is what I and some other mods noticed when we thanked Sepia's opening post there. That is also why I look forward to re-opening those threads, once another matter is attended to first.

But then it became clear to several of us that I, the other mods, and those posting or quoted in those threads had become unwitting participants in a charm offensive, deceitfully intended to give cover for an ongoing injustice that was continuing to harm the reputations of some individuals in the public eye.
So the charm offensive had to be placed on hold, which I did by closing those threads for now. The threads were well intended healing at one level, but were enabling the perpetuation of harm at another more important level.

Paul, those guys were not ill intentioned. This was not trying to charm offend, this was genuine. I understand some have been bruised, but the gesture today was genuine. why not jump on the white horse with a white flag and ride it? Then afterward ask for what you want. If both parties are genuine, which I believe they are, you will find a solution and probalby get what you want.

Ouf, you all need courses in negotiation guys - step by step, with genuine intentions. I am sure you would end up feeling better and getting more than having your horse on his back leg trying to kik with his front legs.

The test i put in bold from your post looks like paranoid thinking from bruised fellows. The wife is not all bad because she divorced. She want the welfare of the family and is asking for it.

Lifesong
3rd May 2011, 04:24
Does anyone else here have kids? If yes, you have run into the situation where the child does something wrong, fires off an "I'm sorry", and shortly thereafter does the same thing again. Every parent faces this. What do you say to your kid, to help them understand the overall big picture of altering one's behavior, the act of an apology, and the act of forgiveness? Seriously, not theoretically, what have you as an individual said to your kid, to try to help them learn and grow into well-adjusted, compassionate adults?

(Paraphrasing into adult language) I tell them the apology is only meaningful if they are present and sincere when they say the words, and have a sincere intent to change the behavior. That's the apology part of the apology --> forgiveness dynamic.

As for the forgiveness end of the dynamic, let's visualize a real-world example of some sort of bad behavior between two kids. Friends. Friends that used to play together nicely, but have now gotten into a loop where one kid keeps doing something mean to the other kid. Now, be honest. Tell me how you, as a loving parent, talk to the kid who has been at the receiving end of the bad behavior, and who has already forgiven, but who continues to be at the receiving end of the bad behavior. Then, what are you going to do tomorrow, and the next day, when the kids want to play, and the pattern of bad behavior was never stopped?

Let's step up the example in severity, intensity, and duration: your friend is being beaten by her husband. You're pretty damn sure she will be beaten again tomorrow. Do you tell her to go home and forgive her husband? Really? If she says she forgives him, yet again, and goes back to him again, do you see her attitude as healthy and enlightened? Really?

I know that it may be possible to imagine ourselves as Christ-conscious beings, forgiving while nails are being driven in, but the real-world truth is that forgiveness does not stand alone if it is in a dynamic and repeating situation.

Dennis

Hi Dennis,

I'm going to try to step very carefully through this as I only want to make a couple of points. Please, bear with me.

First, I do have children, however the implication in that example is that there is an adult's side and a child's side. As we're all adults, it just felt a little condescending as analogies go...to me at least. I'm sure you didn't mean it that way and I hope you don't mind my voiced objection.

As for the real world examples, both the child-friends playing and the wife being beaten...please note that forgiveness does not mean that the children continue to have playdates together or that the wife remain with the violent husband.

Rather, forgiveness frees all of them to create new and better circumstances for themselves without the burden of anger, resentment, or attempts to control.

Just my humble opinion, and I'll say no more.

kinerkid
3rd May 2011, 04:25
Closing theads seems to me like spitting on them once they tried a gesture, as incompetent the gesture may seem, they tried. Open your heart, don't close genuine threads

I trust that the motives of those whose apologies appeared in the original Healing Choir thread were all or mostly honorable. That is what I and some other mods noticed when we thanked Sepia's opening post there. That is also why I look forward to re-opening those threads, once another matter is attended to first.

But then it became clear to several of us that I, the other mods, and those posting or quoted in those threads had become unwitting participants in a charm offensive, deceitfully intended to give cover for an ongoing injustice that was continuing to harm the reputations of some individuals in the public eye.

So the charm offensive had to be placed on hold, which I did by closing those threads for now. The threads were well intended healing at one level, but were enabling the perpetuation of harm at another more important level.

Harm? Can you elaborate?

Paul
3rd May 2011, 04:29
In my forgiveness I went from being a hurt child to an adult.
In such cases, forgiving past abuse, forgiveness is an important step in healing and growing up. Yes.

But if we determine that all forgiveness is "divine" as they say, then we risk being harmed by those who would get (quite possibly well intentioned) others to ask for and receive forgiveness, as cover for ongoing abuse.

¤=[Post Update]=¤


Harm? Can you elaborate?
Yes, I can.

From my original closure message:
There presently resides, in public view, on the nexus.2012info.ca website, defamation (slander and libel) of Bill Ryan, Inelia Benz, and Project Avalon.

These individuals and this website value their public reputation, and rightfully so.

This defamation needs to be removed from public view.

Flash
3rd May 2011, 04:33
Once the bullies says I am sorry, do you kik him back? Or do you say ok, don't ever try again, and please be fair, remove the posts. If he is still kicking the other child while he enlists some others into issuing apologies so as to distract the victims guardian ... you do not focus on honoring the apologies., for no matter how well intended, they are being unwittingly offered in deceit. You move to stop the kicking.

Oh please Paul, "they are being unwittlingly offered in deceit" "to distract the victim guardian".

Say it loud, ... again. .... Does it make sense?

Stop the victimhood archetype that makes you turn into bullies and that make you give excuses to do so, and just get out of this system of thinking. Give peace a chance.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OF91o0HenhU

Normalguy31
3rd May 2011, 04:34
In my forgiveness I went from being a hurt child to an adult.
In such cases, forgiving past abuse, forgiveness is an important step in healing and growing up. Yes.

But if we determine that all forgiveness is "divine" as they say, then we risk being harmed by those who would get (quite possibly well intentioned) others to ask for and receive forgiveness, as cover for ongoing abuse.

I fully understand your point, but what other harm could have been done? I don't think anyone would have had the wool pulled over about the abuse by opening dialogue.

Just my opinion. You have come to your position for good reason. I feel very confident of that. If I had to make the difficult decisions I may not be saying the same thing.

If there are people out there who are not doing that abuse why not try to start a dialogue? Maybe we would have to take the good with the bad at first, but who knows where it could lead. It seems like a good first step to me.

Paul
3rd May 2011, 04:36
It could also be seen as a vehicle to travel to resolution in.
Indeed.

And in the cases where the primary offenses are between the two parties now considering asking for and receiving forgiveness, it can be a good vehicle.

However in this instance, the primary offenses were by and large not between the parties on the original "Healing Choir" thread.

We, including myself with my thanks and my agreeing to make the threat sticky, were patsies.

We were unwittingly engaged in a cover-up of a more harmful endeavor, mostly involving others not directly participating in that original thread, as perpetrator and as intended victims.

kinerkid
3rd May 2011, 04:37
From my original closure message:
There presently resides, in public view, on the nexus.2012info.ca website, defamation (slander and libel) of Bill Ryan, Inelia Benz, and Project Avalon.

These individuals and this website value their public reputation, and rightfully so.

This defamation needs to be removed from public view.

I want to make sure I understand. Your perception is that an "ongoing injustice that was continuing to harm the reputations of some individuals in the public eye" is what was posted in the past at Nexus and therefore the olive branch, as I see it, is simply a diversionary technique? To charm what? Whom?

When in the public eye, there is no such thing as bad press. Even the nay-sayers drive people in droves to the public person's website and info. I'm sure Bill & Inelia understand this and take any bad press in good humor as it simply helps them in the long run.

Paul
3rd May 2011, 04:39
Paul, those guys were not ill intentioned. This was not trying to charm offend, this was genuine.
I agree they were well intentioned. I honored that intention with my initial thanks. I hope to honor that intention again by reopening those threads at some point.

I agree that they were not knowingly participating in a charm offensive. Neither was I, when I thanked and made sticky that thread.

Not knowingly.

Unwittingly.

Paul
3rd May 2011, 04:44
When in the public eye, there is no such thing as bad press. That is said, yes, but partially in jest. The business of seeking truth or improving spiritual awareness does depend on one's reputation. Once sufficiently discredited, one's success in such matters is harmed.

People do not seek truth from those they think are liars, nor do they seek spiritual guidance from those they do not trust.

kinerkid
3rd May 2011, 04:49
Thanks Paul - I can understand that. In that case, it is good that Bill's interview and Inelia's preview have been posted so everyone can see for themselves. Sorry to ask again but I am very curious - what is the charm offensive attempting to hide or cover up? The old posts at Nexus or something current going on?

Flash
3rd May 2011, 04:50
there is nothing to understand kinerkid, this is way off. I wonder if PTB has not had the best of our moderators team with mind controlling waves making one paranoid.

I did not like the bad mouthing going around, but i do not like either what is going on here right now. You are way off track.

Sorry guys, this is not to insult you, it is just to make you realise you are going very far indeed. And don't give reasons to do so, don't reason at all., stop using your mind to justify.

think with your heart, put the hurt aside, nobody died, we are not in Palestine, Lybia, Irak.

Give peace a chance.

Paul
3rd May 2011, 04:53
Sorry to ask again but I am very curious - what is the charm offensive attempting to hide or cover up? The old posts at Nexus or something current going on?
As I have said before:
There presently resides, in public view, on the nexus.2012info.ca website, defamation (slander and libel) of Bill Ryan, Inelia Benz, and Project Avalon.

Flash
3rd May 2011, 04:53
When in the public eye, there is no such thing as bad press. That is said, yes, but partially in jest. The business of seeking truth or improving spiritual awareness does depend on one's reputation. Once sufficiently discredited, one's success in such matters is harmed.

People do not seek truth from those they think are liars, nor do they seek spiritual guidance from those they do not trust.

I agree for once with that. Therefore give peace a chance.

kinerkid
3rd May 2011, 04:57
Sorry to ask again but I am very curious - what is the charm offensive attempting to hide or cover up? The old posts at Nexus or something current going on?
As I have said before:
There presently resides, in public view, on the nexus.2012info.ca website, defamation (slander and libel) of Bill Ryan, Inelia Benz, and Project Avalon.


ah, so the old posts then. Thanks. I understand now. So they were in existence when you made the healing thread a sticky and thanked the post believing it was sincere and accepting it in a sincere manner back. What changed?

Paul
3rd May 2011, 04:57
Therefore give peace a chance.
I suspect that what you refer to as "peace" is actually a deliberate distraction from continued abuse.

No, I will not give such a chance.

Paul
3rd May 2011, 05:02
ah, so the old posts then. Thanks. I understand now. So they were in existence when you made the healing thread a sticky and thanked the post believing it was sincere and accepting it in a sincere manner back. What changed?
What changed? I realized that I, and most everyone else whose name appears on that thread, were unwittingly supporting a deceitfully fabricated charm offensive.

Dennis Leahy
3rd May 2011, 05:02
Flash, this thread was moving fast, and I replied to your post #36 by editing it into the bottom of my post 37.

Dennis

loveandgratitude
3rd May 2011, 05:05
What is currently going on - there is a take down of Avalon. I cannot understand a professional organization like Nexus, allowing this type of mud slilinging, slanderous accusations, libel etc to occur without reprimand. Lets look at what Defamation is -

Defamation Definition

Defamation—also called calumny, vilification, traducement, slander (for transitory statements), and libel (for written, broadcast, or otherwise published words)—is the communication of a statement that makes a claim, expressly stated or implied to be factual, that may give an individual, business, product, group, government, or nation a negative image. It is usually a requirement that this claim be false and that the publication is communicated to someone other than the person defamed (the claimant).[1]

In common law jurisdictions, slander refers to a malicious, false,[2][not specific enough to verify] and defamatory spoken statement or report, while libel refers to any other form of communication such as written words or images.[3] Most jurisdictions allow legal actions, civil and/or criminal, to deter various kinds of defamation and retaliate against groundless criticism. Related to defamation is public disclosure of private facts, which arises where one person reveals information that is not of public concern, and the release of which would offend a reasonable person. "Unlike [with] libel, truth is not a defense for invasion of privacy."[4][not verified in body]

False light laws are "intended primarily to protect the plaintiff's mental or emotional well-being."[5] If a publication of information is false, then a tort of defamation might have occurred. If that communication is not technically false but is still misleading, then a tort of false light might have occurred.[5]

In most civil law jurisdictions, defamation is dealt with as a crime rather than a tort.[6]

A person who destroys another's reputation may be referred to as a famacide, defamer, or slanderer. The Latin phrase famosus libellus means a libelous writing.

Slander is the spoken or transitory form of defamation of character, a legal term that refers to a falsehood presented as true which could harm the reputation of a person or entity. Slander also encompasses body gestures as in the case of sign language. If defamation of character is placed in a fixed form, as in the case of a sign, published paper, film or recording, it is considered libel. In short, slander is temporarily uttered or gesticulated, libel is published or otherwise fixed.

Clearly what has been and is written about Avalon is clearly slanderous and should stop & cease immediately and remove all slanderous remarks from its website.

Nasu
3rd May 2011, 05:09
What is currently going on there is a take down of Avalon. I cannot understand a professional organization like Nexus, allowing this type of mud slilinging, slanderous accusations, libel etc to occur without reprimand. Lets look at what Defamation is -

Defamation Definition

Defamation—also called calumny, vilification, traducement, slander (for transitory statements), and libel (for written, broadcast, or otherwise published words)—is the communication of a statement that makes a claim, expressly stated or implied to be factual, that may give an individual, business, product, group, government, or nation a negative image. It is usually a requirement that this claim be false and that the publication is communicated to someone other than the person defamed (the claimant).[1]

In common law jurisdictions, slander refers to a malicious, false,[2][not specific enough to verify] and defamatory spoken statement or report, while libel refers to any other form of communication such as written words or images.[3] Most jurisdictions allow legal actions, civil and/or criminal, to deter various kinds of defamation and retaliate against groundless criticism. Related to defamation is public disclosure of private facts, which arises where one person reveals information that is not of public concern, and the release of which would offend a reasonable person. "Unlike [with] libel, truth is not a defense for invasion of privacy."[4][not verified in body]

False light laws are "intended primarily to protect the plaintiff's mental or emotional well-being."[5] If a publication of information is false, then a tort of defamation might have occurred. If that communication is not technically false but is still misleading, then a tort of false light might have occurred.[5]

In most civil law jurisdictions, defamation is dealt with as a crime rather than a tort.[6]

A person who destroys another's reputation may be referred to as a famacide, defamer, or slanderer. The Latin phrase famosus libellus means a libelous writing.

Slander is the spoken or transitory form of defamation of character, a legal term that refers to a falsehood presented as true which could harm the reputation of a person or entity. Slander also encompasses body gestures as in the case of sign language. If defamation of character is placed in a fixed form, as in the case of a sign, published paper, film or recording, it is considered libel. In short, slander is temporarily uttered or gesticulated, libel is published or otherwise fixed.

Clearly what has been and is written about Avalon is clearly slanderous and should stop & cease immediately.

Well said. Put up or shut up Nexus. I hope they can do both, I will do my best to do the same. N

Flash
3rd May 2011, 05:17
Therefore give peace a chance.
I suspect that what you refer to as "peace" is actually a deliberate distraction from continued abuse.

No, I will not give such a chance.

Certainly not what i was referring to Paul. Please, lets us all go to bed, eyes will be clearer tomorrow.

kinerkid
3rd May 2011, 05:17
ah, so the old posts then. Thanks. I understand now. So they were in existence when you made the healing thread a sticky and thanked the post believing it was sincere and accepting it in a sincere manner back. What changed?
What changed? I realized that I, and most everyone else whose name appears on that thread, were unwittingly supporting a deceitfully fabricated charm offensive.

It seems we are running in circles. I am a member of both forums, as I am sure you are well aware. It is unfortunate that the door remains closed but I respect Avalon's space.

kinerkid
3rd May 2011, 05:45
break time!
http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/funny-pictures-boxes-rule.jpg

Lord Sidious
3rd May 2011, 05:58
It could also be seen as a vehicle to travel to resolution in.
Indeed.

And in the cases where the primary offenses are between the two parties now considering asking for and receiving forgiveness, it can be a good vehicle.

However in this instance, the primary offenses were by and large not between the parties on the original "Healing Choir" thread.

We, including myself with my thanks and my agreeing to make the threat sticky, were patsies.

We were unwittingly engaged in a cover-up of a more harmful endeavor, mostly involving others not directly participating in that original thread, as perpetrator and as intended victims.

You were, but only if you believe you were.
I have seen some of the posts you refer to and some made me angry too.
I could have asked people that I know who are members to send pms to the posters who infuriated me with their posts, but what would I have achieved?
I would probably only have dragged others into it, not gotten the resolution that I thought I wanted and the worst part, I would have attracted more attention to the problem.
The posts I speak of are not about me.

I think I know where you and the other mods are coming from and I can't say that I am not sympathetic to what you say, but I am wondering if there is a better way to get the resolution that you all think you want?

Shikasta
3rd May 2011, 06:14
Once the bullies says I am sorry, do you kik him back? Or do you say ok, don't ever try again, and please be fair, remove the posts. If he is still kicking the other child while he enlists some others into issuing apologies so as to distract the victims guardian ... you do not focus on honoring the apologies., for no matter how well intended, they are being unwittingly offered in deceit. You move to stop the kicking.

Oh please Paul, "they are being unwittlingly offered in deceit" "to distract the victim guardian".

Say it loud, ... again. .... Does it make sense?

Stop the victimhood archetype that makes you turn into bullies and that make you give excuses to do so, and just get out of this system of thinking. Give peace a chance.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OF91o0HenhU



Paul, those guys were not ill intentioned. This was not trying to charm offend, this was genuine.
I agree they were well intentioned. I honored that intention with my initial thanks. I hope to honor that intention again by reopening those threads at some point.

I agree that they were not knowingly participating in a charm offensive. Neither was I, when I thanked and made sticky that thread.

Not knowingly.

Unwittingly.

Paul, am I being dense? I don't 'get' what you mean about unwitting deceit in the Healing Choir thread. I was shocked, and initially felt angry, at your (and Dennis's) closure of that thread. It felt like a psychic slap, to all of good and genuine intent to heal and move on with other pressing matters.

I am saddened by your attempt to control spontaneous healing expressions because of suspicions of 'deceit'.

Each forum has it's own style. Nexus is an open forum which clearly states that member posts and threads will not be deleted or closed. The ONLY exceptions are spam and pornography. Paul and Dennis, I suspect you KNOW that already.

So when you make it a condition of healing that all messages and threads that 'offend' you be deleted, before continuing to let members post their heart-felt wishes for peace, are you being deliberately disingenuous?

I truly wish us ALL, in ALL related forums, the power to move on and do what each does best to empower an increasingly awakened population.

Graeme

Paul
3rd May 2011, 06:20
I have seen some of the posts you refer to and some made me angry too.

This is not about whether some post on Nexus makes an Avalon mod angry.

When that happens to me, as it has a few times (my reputation over there kinda sucks ;)) I get the best results by working on my self.

As I have been as clear as I know how, this is about defamation of Bill, Inelia and Project Avalon that remains on public view. Such harms our common (both PA and Nexus) efforts.

Paul
3rd May 2011, 06:32
Paul, am I being dense? I don't 'get' what you mean about unwitting deceit in the Healing Choir thread. I was shocked, and initially felt angry, at your (and Dennis's) closure of that thread. It felt like a psychic slap, to all of good and genuine intent to heal and move on with other pressing matters.

The deceit is for the most part not in those who were visible on that thread. Rather we, myself included were unwitting participants in a charade intended to further damage the reputations of Bill Ryan and Inelia Benz. The primary authors of the deceit were mostly working behind the scene.

I honor the intent of those who contributed to Sepia's post, and of those (including myself and some fellow mods) who thanked that post.

But the continuation of that thread, for the time being, until some other matters are tended to, was counter-productive, for the reason I just stated two paragraphs ago.


So when you make it a condition of healing that all messages and threads that 'offend' you be deleted,
Not so. In this case, nothing was deleted. In general, I don't delete something just because it "offends" me.

Steve C
3rd May 2011, 06:52
......................

kinerkid
3rd May 2011, 07:00
The deceit is for the most part not in those who were visible on that thread. Rather we, myself included were unwitting participants in a charade intended to further damage the reputations of Bill Ryan and Inelia Benz. The primary authors of the deceit were mostly working behind the scene.

I honor the intent of those who contributed to Sepia's post, and of those (including myself and some fellow mods) who thanked that post.

But the continuation of that thread, for the time being, until some other matters are tended to, was counter-productive, for the reason I just stated two paragraphs ago.



This is a case of punishing the wrong people then. To use Dennis's analogy of bully children and how to deal with them - do you punish the innocent child because one of their classmates is acting up?

sepia
3rd May 2011, 07:03
----

Years ago I was in a very difficult situation with a woman who slandered and hurt me in public and at the phone... I felt misunderstood, abused and all you can think of.

I was so upset that I had an ongoing dialog inside of me:
I defended myself, explained myself, explained why she was stupid, unfair and many more things...

I wanted prove that I was right and she was wrong, I wanted justice - or even better: revenge.
But I didn't see a way to get it.

My meditations were disturbed: No peace at all... The conflict was nagging on me.

Finally, after 2 weeks of ongoing dialogs I opened up to healing, which then happened in two steps:



I had the idea that I must have done something terrible to her in an earlier lifetime.
I asked her honestly to forgive me for all I might have done to her - ever - even if I didn't have a memory of it.

So this means: I was willing to look at her as equal how ever I might have put her down earlier.

This step was relatively simple for me - and I could do it fullheartedly.



It took me another 5 days to become ready to forgive her.

And here I was sitting - not knowing how this is done.

I don't exaggerate when I say it was agony. -
Here I was sitting with this perfect list of all the terrible things
this person has done to me - and now what?

I finally lifted the whole list up to heaven, saying:



"If there is anybody up there listening to me right now:
Please take care of this whole list of things!
I don't want it anymore, I don't need it anymore. I wish to forgive it all."


It almost seemed I heard the rumbling of all the rocks falling from my heart,
from all things that were ever done to me.

Sepia

Anchor
3rd May 2011, 07:10
Years ago I was in a very difficult situation with a woman who slandered and hurt me in public and at the phone... I felt misunderstood, abused and all you can think of.

Sepia,

Did the abuse/difficult situation stop before you forgave her or after?

Paul has expressed Avalon's point of view quite clearly.

To this view what the Healing Choir appears to be asking mutual forgiveness for, is something that is clearly seen by them as an ONGOING situation.

John..

PS: I am not commenting on the technique you presented - which seems to me to be a very good one!

Paul
3rd May 2011, 07:13
I find it hard not to forgive,i have had some troubles in my life and i have always forgiven the person/persons involved.

The major issue is not forgiveness. Most of those on the Healing Choir were acting in good faith and have done little that I've noticed (not that I was paying close attention) needing them to apologize, or the rest of us to forgive. Once the ongoing defamation is resolved, then I anticipate apologies and forgiveness will be easily resolved.

Real Intent
3rd May 2011, 07:20
I find it hard not to forgive,i have had some troubles in my life and i have always forgiven the person/persons involved.

The major issue is not forgiveness. Most of those on the Healing Choir were acting in good faith and have done little that I've noticed (not that I was paying close attention) needing them to apologize, or the rest of us to forgive. Once the ongoing defamation is resolved, then I anticipate apologies and forgiveness will be easily resolved.

I have not seen any recent defamation going on. To what are you referring?

Paul
3rd May 2011, 07:40
Years ago I was in a very difficult situation with a woman who slandered and hurt me in public and at the phone... I felt misunderstood, abused and all you can think of.
Thank-you for posting the "Healing Choir" thread, Sepia. I respect your intentions in posting it, and I look forward to the day I can re-open that thread.

As Anchor replied, my primary concern is not with the several people who contributed to the Healing Choirin a substantial way, including yourself . Rather as best as I can tell, the Healing Choir effort was providing cover for leaving in public view substantial defamation of Bill and Inelia.

I have no significant beef with you or most of the rest of those who joined you in that effort. Nor so far as I know do the other Avalon mods. This is not a you guys versus us guys battle. As best as I can tell, we were being setup, by people operating substantially behind the scenes, intending to rip us asunder.


I have not seen any recent defamation going on. To what are you referring?
The existing defamation remains, so far as I know, posted in public view.

sepia
3rd May 2011, 07:41
Years ago I was in a very difficult situation with a woman who slandered and hurt me in public and at the phone... I felt misunderstood, abused and all you can think of.

Sepia,

Did the abuse/difficult situation stop before you forgave her or after?

Paul has expressed Avalon's point of view quite clearly.

To this view what the Healing Choir appears to be asking mutual forgiveness for, is something that is clearly seen by them as an ONGOING situation.

John..

PS: I am not commenting on the technique you presented - which seems to me to be a very good one!

I probably cannot answer this in a straight line - and sorry for just talking about myself... My personal experience is all I have.

What I can say: It stopped for me, my heart was peaceful from this second on - and this understanding brought a huge spiritual progress.
I only met this person one more time. She felt very irritated, immediately turned away and wasn't able to look into my eyes. I heard from others that she is full of hate - about many things. And of course she is allowed to be that way and have this experience... But now I'm aware of her tragedy and pain and see her divine sparkle.

Let's say she would have gone around telling negative things about me:
That's what people do - it belongs to human nature to express the frustration, talk to others, discuss, reflect, listen to others, learn, grow, change their minds - this is what growing is all about.

There is no point in fighting this. It is much more important to trust them, those who talk, those who listen, that after a while the wounds will heal and they are able to grow and change their minds again. (May be not in this lifetime.)

Some people love me - some hate me (because I can be very strict and clear if something is not truthful.)
That's fine. My love for the beings is strong enough to bear the hate of their Ego.

People have opinions and that's okay.
If we don't pretend being the only ones who know the truth, and accept that someone else's truth is a different one all becomes less dramatic.

---

The people participating in this beautiful Choir have changed their reality.
Others might choose to stick with the anger...

Love, Sepia

Paul
3rd May 2011, 07:45
This is a case of punishing the wrong people then.
Three threads (on the same topic) were closed, until a more pressing matter, for which these threads were providing cover, can be resolved.

Nothing was deleted. No infractions were handed out. No one was put on notice to change their behavior or face risk of penalties.

I have not punished those who contributed to those threads, nor do I have any desire or intention to do so.

I just needed to put the Healing Choir effort on hold, until a more pressing matter (for which the Healing Choir was unwittingly providing cover) can be addressed.

sepia
3rd May 2011, 08:03
---
May I refere to this post: http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?19624-Credo-Mutwa-Has-Stroke


The great Credo Mutwa, the Zulu shaman now almost 90 years of age, has had the latest in a series of strokes. I spoke with him this morning for some time and he was making jokes and laughing as usual, but he is very ill and has lost feeling in his left side.
Even in these circumstances he was thinking of others and

asked me to tell people that forgiveness and love are the only answer to the problems of South Africa and the wider world.

Please send him your love.



At the end it all comes down to forgiveness, love and compassion.

Love and best wishes for this great soul Credo Mutwa.

Sepia

Paul
3rd May 2011, 08:07
Let's say she would have gone around telling negative things about me:
You speak well here of what sounds like essentially a two way interaction, yourself, this other troubled person, and innocent bystanders who might be told one thing or another.

In the case of Avalon and Nexus, we are dealing with (1) our individual interactions, (2) various group dynamics, and (3) some dark and manipulative external groups who would play upon the weaknesses of (1) and (2) in order to destroy our reputations and effectiveness in the community at large.

Our integrity on the level of (1) our individual interactions can be used against us by these dark forces (3). We still need to nuture the health of our individual relations, but we need to thwart the damage that would be caused by (3). The rush to focus on the Healing Choir was (in my estimation) providing cover for ongoing defamation intended to destroy our effectiveness and certain reputations in the community at large.

Isostool
3rd May 2011, 08:07
From what I understand of Nexus' stance on this - they won't be removing anything. Closing a healing choir thread is not exactly leverage to get what you want. If asked about the material at question, it will probably be argued by those who have the power to leave or remove such things, that it is not slander because a requirement of slander and defamation etc. is that it be false.

To require that posts be censored elsewhere where it is no business of Avalon to request such a thing, is ... kind of.... unrealistic. True, Avalon's jurisdiction here - Avalon may ban erase censor request what it likes. But as for Nexus? That really IS none of Avalon's business. Unless it wished to bring official charges, legal actions against Nexus. And I would be seriously surprised if that occurred.

Paul
3rd May 2011, 08:11
Removing a healing choir thread is not exactly leverage to get what you want.
I did not remove any Healing Choir thread.


To require that posts be censored elsewhere where it is no business of Avalon to request such a thing, is ... kind of.... unrealistic. On the contrary. It is fitting and proper to ask that slanderous posts be removed from public view.

Isostool
3rd May 2011, 08:18
On the contrary. It is fitting and proper to ask that slanderous posts be removed from public view.

Those who run Nexus would more than likely argue that statements made are not slanderous. If you are that concerned about it, then take it up through the proper channels and make it legal. Other than that - it is unrealistic to assume that anything will be taken down.

loveandgratitude
3rd May 2011, 08:46
The owners of any website are responsible for the actions on that site. Therefore the owners of that site are also legally responsible and in the case of a law suit, they would have to pay expensive damages if defamation were to be proven. If I were the owner of a web site that allowed derogatory statements, slanderous accusations, deceitful Innuendo, that allowed libel and slander, I would re-consider my position very carefully and take responsibility now rather than have regrets later on.

Libel and Slander

"Libel" involves the publishing of a falsehood that harms someone. Slander is the same doctrine applied to the spoken word. Collectively, they are referred to as "defamation". Both are a matter of state laws, which usually (not always) require that the falsehood be intentional.

In New York Times v. Sullivan, the Supreme Court held that the First Amendment requires that, before a public official can recover damages for a defamatory statement, he must prove it was made with "actual malice", even if state laws otherwise allow recovery for negligent defamation. The Court has since expanded this to cover not only public officials but "public figures", including individuals who involve themselves in controversies.

Can I sue someone who says or writes something defamatory about me?

Inorder to prove defamation, you have to be able to prove thatwhat was said or written about you was false. If the informationis true, or if you consented to publication of the material, youwill not have a case. However, you may bring an defamatoryaction if the comments are so reprehensible and false that theyeffect your reputation in the community or cast aspersions on you.

What damages are available for slander or libel?

If you have been defamed you may seek both actual damages, to recover the harm that you have suffered, and punitive damages to punish the person who made the remark (and serve as an exampleto deter others).

If the defamation improperly accused you of a crime or reflected on your profession, the Court or jury can assess the damages. Forother types of defamation you must prove some actual damage to be able to recover.

This is not a road that people want to walk down, but when there is no alternative route then there is no choice but to walk down this winding road.

Paul
3rd May 2011, 08:46
Those who run Nexus would more than likely ...
What others do and say is ultimately in their hands.

Agape
3rd May 2011, 08:47
Forgiveness is true if based on genuine understanding and empathy with the person you are supposed to forgive ,
otherwise is not more than empty word as all other words can be and effort to prove to the other you are better than he is .
The offender himself is mostly a victim as you are and trying to show you are better than he/she is or sort of equal ,
makes stupid people more stupid and gives strength to the strong .


What do I mean by understanding and empathy here ...let me give you an example . Years back I was a child of single mum , and there were interpersonal reasons I believe why the two people divorced .
I was 6 or 7 that time but as a thoughtful kid , I questioned the logic and reasoning of both of them very much and though they tried to explain it to me I could not agree on why these two beautiful and loving people decided to go apart .

Later I realised that though in their 30th they were not more than big kids , not ready to have children :lol:

I stayed with mum and believe she needed my support in the situation for many years to come ..but, there was lots of unfair psychological abuse in the family going on for me since then , behind the closed walls and out of anyone's knowledge .
It was a torture at times and I don't want to recall it and it lasted years .

While of course, the other side of the same coin was caring loving mum whom I loved , feared and wanted to 'repair'.

It did not work so all I then really wanted as many youngsters was to get away , not only from her but the whole system . And I did as soon as I could and chosen a path of personal freedom and learning and search for wise people and I'm not going to regret it .

I did not retreat to drugs, did not start hurting others , I was searching for deeper solutions with the depth of my heart ..and blessings were with me I found them .


One day in clear moment when I was alone in this apartment where I grew up I looked back suddenly and seen how difficult it had to be for her , at that time being alone , going to work , taking care of household and having kid that demanded her constant attention .

Remind you that at in certain tender age she was so angry with me at times that I went to bed shivering , happy the doors are closed and she sat smoking in kitchen and I could read her thoughts aloud about wanting to kill me . I knew she would never do that , she just had bad moods , she was scared and did not want the responsibility .
I was scared twice than that of course ..

I looked back and felt in 'her shoes' that day and cried knowing how difficult it all was . And I knew I had forgiven her all , not because I decided so but because I understood the suffering .
It's long gone and just a memory now ..

I try to do the same whenever someone hurts me , seriously , I try to emphatize and understand WHAT kind of situation that person is going through ,
I try to be in his shoes even for a while .
It's the ultimate method for me to understand the other .

In Tibetan Buddhism they call this Tonglen , exchanging your self with the others self who ever the person may be.

Imagine yourself in the beggars shoes , the leppers cloth , the murderers and the victims , go through their life ..cry for them with your real tears .

Who remains to be forgiven ? What is there to forgive .


I remember little story from HH Dalailama he quoted in Dharamsala at some of his teachings .
Another monk who spent more than 20 years in Chinese prisons for protesting against the regime , survived all the torture and abuse , physical wounds and humiliation ,
finally escaped to India and joined the exile community and in a meeting with HH Dalailama himself was asked what concerned him most , during those days , what he really feared , if it was death or losing his friends or mind or whatever .


His answer seemed to be as surprising as touching for he answered that the most he feared losing compassion for his abusers .

Unbelievable how it seems to some here who frequently seek revenge for the society taught them to be predators ..


Peace comes from inside of you ..not from approval of others . They may have their own path and own time to reconcile and they are entitled to it .

As one of my friends used to say , half in jest ...

" one day we all will get there .."


With love and forgive my wrongdoings please


A :grouphug:

ktlight
3rd May 2011, 08:59
When you forgive, you free yourself from any ties to the pain, if it took the form of control of your actions, desire for revenge, hatred of the perpetrator. Any area of your life that needs forgiveness, if not forgiven, will hold you back.

Shikasta
3rd May 2011, 09:36
So when you make it a condition of healing that all messages and threads that 'offend' you be deleted,

Not so. In this case, nothing was deleted. In general, I don't delete something just because it "offends" me.

Sorry for not being clearer, what I meant was (clarification in italics):

"Each forum has it's own style. I value these style differences and different perspectives. Nexus is an open forum which clearly states that member posts and threads will not be deleted or closed. The ONLY exceptions are spam and pornography. Paul and Dennis, I suspect you KNOW that already.

So when you make it a condition of healing that all messages and threads ON NEXUS that 'offend' you be deleted, before continuing to let members post their heart-felt wishes for peace, are you being deliberately disingenuous? i.e. you know darn well it ain't gonna happen!

Because I post both here and in Nexus, and (rarely) at Mists of Avalon, doesn't mean I agree with all posts and threads. I don't even agree with everything I say and do either! However, I can own my own behaviour. I won't be held responsible for the actions of others. Many of us sincerely want peace and to combine the power of ONE that all related Forums can wield. We'll never agree on everything and we have no right to INSIST that another behave the way we demand.

As a long-time forum member I've an inkling of the difficulties experienced by forum moderators. As the name implies I believe moderators have to find a balance between monitoring their own behaviour as well as of other forum members.

All I ask is "Beware of throwing the baby out with the bath water Paul (and Dennis)".

(and if any of you varmints over in Nexus are reading this, that applies to YOU too!!) :mmph:

Graeme

Jendayi
3rd May 2011, 09:49
One only experiences slander as offensive if there is some truth in it..
if the slander is untrue, one should simply move on... and it should be easy doing so...
letting go is the key...

Agape
3rd May 2011, 10:32
One only experiences slander as offensive if there is some truth in it..
if the slander is untrue, one should simply move on... and it should be easy doing so...
letting go is the key...


That's sort of true Jendayi but as in your underlying statement ...only as long as it does not concern you personally .

It's always good to have some non sided and not harmed people inside provided they are gifted with greater wisdom than the rest .

This world unfortunately has a long time history of harming the innocents ,

besides else .

In my honest opinion every effort for reconciliation should be considered and hands outstretched in gesture of peace should not be refused ( that's how war start )


As far as I've noticed , most people's presence on either of these forums is voluntary ( even if they like to call it commitment ..)

This is truly not a life mission , to be 'forum member' or is it ?


I see there are many problems with how people behave to each other on some of these websites ,

forgetting any sense of casual etiquette .

Would they tolerate the same level of talk if going on in their 'real life'?

If not why are they engaging in it here ..


Openness is great but there has to be resonance in it and it can't be faked and forced .


I told recently to friend ..if you want to heal a group you need to work with individuals . Statements however great , from anyone is all we have got for thousands of years ..
from various govs and hierarchies .

If you can help individuals you can also enjoy great collective .

If you ( as a leader of group ) don't have time to do that and no one does , great statements on your or our behalf are useless .


Compassion and understanding work ultimately on individual level , not as some group endeavour ,

people come here from all walks of life and they need a work to be done with them .

If all you talk about is collective and following and deny individuality and individual efforts and equanimity of contribution etc.

we all lose .



:angel:

Jendayi
3rd May 2011, 10:45
@ Agape:
you just inspired me to share!!!! http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?19719-Jendayi-s-metaphysical-and-spiritual-Troubleshooting-thread
Bless you for your wise words!

PegasusRising
3rd May 2011, 10:56
Forgiveness, is when you can look into a mirror and see you 'adversaire' reflected back.
The illusion of separation, keeps us divided.

Enjoy every precious moment.

Steven
3rd May 2011, 11:25
Hi,

Here a little story about forgivness:

''A man have passed away and once in the spiritual realm, he met a guiding spirit to accompany him on his way. They shared thoughts until they met two other men fighting against each other. They were chained up together. They shout and cried out loud. They stood in fire and burning flame, hurting each other with passionate hatred.

So, the man asked the spirit guide why they were in this intolerable situation. The guide said that one of the men killed the other when they were both on Earth. 'But why the other who has been killed is still chained up with the murderer?' asked the man.

'He never forgave his murderer' answered the spirit guide.''

No matter how hard it is, forgiveness is necessary for freedom. No real peace possible without real forgiveness.

Namaste, Steven

Isostool
3rd May 2011, 12:02
Those who run Nexus would more than likely ...
What others do and say is ultimately in their hands.

Yes Paul, but what you are asking, ultimately, is that those who run the show over there do as you have requested and remove all on their boards that you find offensive. For they, like you, have the authority to access accross the board material and do as you wish. But then we can return to your statement: what they do is ultimately in their own hands... unless you take it to a lawyer.

Lord Sidious
3rd May 2011, 12:04
---
May I refere to this post: http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?19624-Credo-Mutwa-Has-Stroke


The great Credo Mutwa, the Zulu shaman now almost 90 years of age, has had the latest in a series of strokes. I spoke with him this morning for some time and he was making jokes and laughing as usual, but he is very ill and has lost feeling in his left side.
Even in these circumstances he was thinking of others and

asked me to tell people that forgiveness and love are the only answer to the problems of South Africa and the wider world.

Please send him your love.



At the end it all comes down to forgiveness, love and compassion.

Love and best wishes for this great soul Credo Mutwa.

Sepia

Thanks for bringing the light to us as usual and how!
Like a supernova of truth.


On the contrary. It is fitting and proper to ask that slanderous posts be removed from public view.

I hear you, but there are ways and ways.
This way, you attract more attention to that which you want removed.
I would suggest that you should speak to a member of their staff with whom you are on good terms and see what can be done.
I would offer to help, but I am not a member there.

w1ndmill
3rd May 2011, 12:44
In my forgiveness I went from being a hurt child to an adult.
In such cases, forgiving past abuse, forgiveness is an important step in healing and growing up. Yes.

But if we determine that all forgiveness is "divine" as they say, then we risk being harmed by those who would get (quite possibly well intentioned) others to ask for and receive forgiveness, as cover for ongoing abuse.

¤=[Post Update]=¤


Harm? Can you elaborate?
Yes, I can.

From my original closure message:
There presently resides, in public view, on the nexus.2012info.ca website, defamation (slander and libel) of Bill Ryan, Inelia Benz, and Project Avalon.

These individuals and this website value their public reputation, and rightfully so.

This defamation needs to be removed from public view.

Firstly, I was replying sincerely (and from the heart) to the opening post in this thread and I feel that the part of my post that you quoted to make your own point is misdirected and used as ammunition for your own cause.

Secondly, accusations of libel and slander are extremely serious and can and should be addressed legally through the right channels.

Thirdly, I am getting fed up of every post being hijacked by what is happening over on the other forum. If it must be discussed then can it PLEASE be kept to one large thread so that people know what they're getting into? I realise that people want to have it out but I wouldn't have bared my heart and soul if I'd known this was just another excuse to rake everything up again and use my words in a different way than I had intended.

Thank you.

Linda

TimelessDimensions
3rd May 2011, 17:14
We can forgive ourselves, everything is an experience in learning.

Paul
3rd May 2011, 20:40
Firstly, I was replying sincerely (and from the heart) to the opening post in this thread and I feel that the part of my post that you quoted to make your own point is misdirected and used as ammunition for your own cause.

Secondly, accusations of libel and slander are extremely serious and can and should be addressed legally through the right channels.

Thirdly, I am getting fed up of every post being hijacked by what is happening over on the other forum. If it must be discussed then can it PLEASE be kept to one large thread so that people know what they're getting into?
Oh dear.

Your concerns are quite valid.

Unbeknownst to you, this was, at least for a while a day ago, the "one large thread" you wish we had for this topic. The original poster knew that from the very beginning, as did I as soon as I saw it. However, necessarily so, he did not make his intention apparent in his first post because I had just closed down the three previous threads that were openly discussing the topic. So he had little choice but to disguise his intent with a generic discussion.

But, quite reasonably, you did not know that.

I should have recognized from your first post on this thread that you were responding to what was posted, not what was hidden. If I had done so, I would hopefully have treated your heart felt post with a bit of the respect it deserved, rather than as just one volley in some other controversy in which you had no apparent intention of participating.

Your post may well have been one of the best one on this thread, and one of the few actually addressing the topic presented in the opening post. My apologies for helping to bury it in "the controversy of the day."

Nyce555
3rd May 2011, 20:48
Forgiveness although hard to do at times. It is necessary so that you can move on with your life. This includes forgiving yourself. If you can't forgive you will always hold that negative thing inside of you. Forgive and let it go. Take it as a lesson learned. Forgive others so that they may have peace and you can put it in the past. That doesn't mean you have to be BFF's with the person. Just forgive and let them go live their lives and you can live yours with no negative attachments.

Paul
3rd May 2011, 21:00
This way, you attract more attention to that which you want removed.
I would suggest that you should speak to a member of their staff with whom you are on good terms and see what can be done.
Yes, there are such ways. I have reason to believe that some such have been pursued, but as is apparent, without success so far.

Yes, sometimes one must call attention to that which one wants removed. I'm suspect you've done such yourself at times, Lord Sidious ;).

The One
3rd May 2011, 21:07
Forgiveness is a gift you give yourself mistakes are always forgivable, if one has the courage to admit them.You will know that forgiveness has begun when you recall those who hurt you and feel the power to wish them well

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Flash
3rd May 2011, 22:21
I am sorry to tell that I think there is nothing to do anylonger. You damaged the will of people to come to an agreement through forgiveness by closing the attemps to reach us, of good will and going on a paranoid stance instead of a good will heart one.

Having been open and received the offer, many who were posting in the threads from Nexus were ready to do something about this. There were possibilities for them to change things on the other side.

The reaction here was so disappointing that it probably did not spur any good desire anylonger. i am personnaly disappointed by such a reaction of yours, my Avalon mods. Although i alsways appreciated your dedicated and excellent work, this time it was overdone.

If there was any bad cloud behing the choir threads, can we know which ones precisely. Because, here, now, your reaction is that : reactionary.

Personnally I think that the bad clouds were on this side - self study may be useful at Avalon.

This will be my last post on this topic, I am too disappointed by such a way of thinking for the moment.

manny
3rd May 2011, 23:20
forgiveness to me .
is a deep personal experience.
its what it means to you.

Lord Sidious
4th May 2011, 00:49
This way, you attract more attention to that which you want removed.
I would suggest that you should speak to a member of their staff with whom you are on good terms and see what can be done.
Yes, there are such ways. I have reason to believe that some such have been pursued, but as is apparent, without success so far.

Yes, sometimes one must call attention to that which one wants removed. I'm suspect you've done such yourself at times, Lord Sidious ;).

Yeah, I have Paul, that is how I can speak to you about it.
I have a feeling that not only do you know what I mean, but I know how you feel.


I am sorry to tell that I think there is nothing to do anylonger. You damaged the will of people to come to an agreement through forgiveness by closing the attemps to reach us, of good will and going on a paranoid stance instead of a good will heart one.

Having been open and received the offer, many who were posting in the threads from Nexus were ready to do something about this. There were possibilities for them to change things on the other side.

The reaction here was so disappointing that it probably did not spur any good desire anylonger. i am personnaly disappointed by such a reaction of yours, my Avalon mods. Although i alsways appreciated your dedicated and excellent work, this time it was overdone.

If there was any bad cloud behing the choir threads, can we know which ones precisely. Because, here, now, your reaction is that : reactionary.

Personnally I think that the bad clouds were on this side - self study may be useful at Avalon.

This will be my last post on this topic, I am too disappointed by such a way of thinking for the moment.

Please realise that everyone can make an error, I know I have made more than my share.
It isn't making the error that counts most times, it is what you do afterwards.
This is a touchy subject for many here, the issues that Paul and Dennis have spoken of, but we can't fix a thing if we ignore each other or fight.

Paul
4th May 2011, 00:55
Please realise that everyone can make an error,
I'll wager one organic carrot that when Flash read that, and when I read that, the first example of "error" that came to our respective minds was not the same thing :).

bilko
4th May 2011, 01:09
Forgiveness starts the process of healing.
Whether it is someone else or yourself you cannot begin to heal and love again unconditionally until you forgive.

bilko
4th May 2011, 01:14
One of the most Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth and indeed the last lesson that Jesus taught us was to forgive.
From there you can ascend.

Lord Sidious
4th May 2011, 01:25
Please realise that everyone can make an error,
I'll wager one organic carrot that when Flash read that, and when I read that, the first example of "error" that came to our respective minds was not the same thing :).

Indeed, that is why I didn't explain, as I bet my version is different again from the two of you.
But we all screw up, I have.
I will again.
Even though I try desperately not to.

Agape
4th May 2011, 01:34
Please realise that everyone can make an error,
I'll wager one organic carrot that when Flash read that, and when I read that, the first example of "error" that came to our respective minds was not the same thing :).



There are days like this when I feel like I understand less and less and less of what's going on in this world ,
what's going on with you people ..there is so little trust and compassion seems to be too old fashioned ..


I'd just forgive me for faking all this mission right ? And let's forgive all this world and let it sleep .

I'm drawn on these sites and community with numerous other individuals who have all also been there and seen that and victims of government terror and ET abductions and people with their dreams and experiences and that's it yes ?

We have made contact and receive some data , our great human civilisation did it and sacrificed life ( oh I know what's life for you ) ,

and we can't understand it can we ?


Is there anyone among you gentlemen who is able to contain the situation ( as per the ET Origins Report ) in your mind or is it but me who is punished for your great humanity having great contact but you are utterly unable to react to it ?


What am I expected to do ? Where am I expected to go ?


Do you think this is my dream to spend days on forum and make fun of everything and Barry who is ill can do very little about it at all ?


Does anyone care I'm alone here and how many people in this world are able to understand what is the situation about again ?


So what shall I do ? Wait till I die or what shall I do please ?



Forgive me but that's how it is ...

:angel: :cry:

Dennis Leahy
4th May 2011, 01:53
There are days like this when I feel like I understand less and less and less of what's going on in this world ,
what's going on with you people ..there is so little trust and compassion seems to be too old fashioned ..


I'd just forgive me for faking all this mission right ? And let's forgive all this world and let it sleep .

I'm drawn on these sites and community with numerous other individuals who have all also been there and seen that and victims of government terror and ET abductions and people with their dreams and experiences and that's it yes ?

We have made contact and receive some data , our great human civilisation did it and sacrificed life ( oh I know what's life for you ) ,

and we can't understand it can we ?


Is there anyone among you gentlemen who is able to contain the situation ( as per the ET Origins Report ) in your mind or is it but me who is punished for your great humanity having great contact but you are utterly unable to react to it ?


What am I expected to do ? Where am I expected to go ?


Do you think this is my dream to spend days on forum and make fun of everything and Barry who is ill can do very little about it at all ?


Does anyone care I'm alone here and how many people in this world are able to understand what is the situation about again ?


So what shall I do ? Wait till I die or what shall I do please ?



Forgive me but that's how it is ...

:angel: :cry:
Agape,

People like me that have not been personally touched by any sort of ET contact, and especially negative, life changing contact like you and Barry just sort of sit and stare and don't know what to say. I can tell that you're in pain, but don't know what to do to help. I'm not one of the people who has a clear sense of what is about to happen, but I am intuitive enough to feel great changes in the air. A while ago, it felt oppressive and ominous; now it feels like the edge of positive transformation, something very vibrant, very alive. That, I'm afraid, is all I can offer. To say, "hang in there" and that I believe and sense that we will are all blossoming.

Dennis

sepia
4th May 2011, 02:05
In the case of Avalon and Nexus, we are dealing with (1) our individual interactions, (2) various group dynamics, and (3) some dark and manipulative external groups who would play upon the weaknesses of (1) and (2) in order to destroy our reputations and effectiveness in the community at large.

Our integrity on the level of (1) our individual interactions can be used against us by these dark forces (3). We still need to nuture the health of our individual relations, but we need to thwart the damage that would be caused by (3). The rush to focus on the Healing Choir was (in my estimation) providing cover for ongoing defamation intended to destroy our effectiveness and certain reputations in the community at large.

You mention:



our individual interactions,
various group dynamics, and
some dark and manipulative external groups


It is easy to believe that these are different things.

Spiritual laws are superior.

What you learn on a personal level will radiate into the others.
It is the inner attitude that will be mirrored to us from outside.

Never blame the Echo.

Best wishes, Sepia

Agape
4th May 2011, 02:21
Hello Dennis,

thank you for your kind hearted message ..

It was not negative at all . It was the biggest possible thing that one can possibly experience in ones ( human ) lifetime even for once .
Something I'd wish everyone to share and show to .

It was on the other hand exhausting in certain way and the problem certainly is not on the ET side no matter what some are presenting it to be . The problem is utterly on human side and it rests in tiny little stupid human distrust and ignorance and lack of imagination and normal human empathy among professionals , scientists whomever you have .

I have logically great faith for it being truth has to end up well and the data being of interest can be retrieved etc .


But the silence is disheartening me and it feels like lack of any normal human reaction at all .

People tell me the same what you do in fact , kind of I have no idea what to do about it ( are you familiar with the report at all ?) , their brain tends to switch off .


I hoped there are some profs and units trained for such situations who don't all quite switch off . I'm alone on this couple of years together 24/7 if it was not for Barrys help. It is not about daily contact experiences .
It is about big amount of data opened to me in Bodhgaya that are of older than human origin and would need to be sorted out .


It won't sort out without work , intelligent contribution , just 'by itself ' and I'm already quite exhausted .


:hug:

Maia Gabrial
4th May 2011, 02:23
I think forgiveness has to be unconditional, too. Like unconditional love.

Dennis Leahy
4th May 2011, 02:29
I am sorry to tell that I think there is nothing to do anylonger. You damaged the will of people to come to an agreement through forgiveness by closing the attemps to reach us, of good will and going on a paranoid stance instead of a good will heart one.

Having been open and received the offer, many who were posting in the threads from Nexus were ready to do something about this. There were possibilities for them to change things on the other side.

The reaction here was so disappointing that it probably did not spur any good desire anylonger. i am personnaly disappointed by such a reaction of yours, my Avalon mods. Although i alsways appreciated your dedicated and excellent work, this time it was overdone.

If there was any bad cloud behing the choir threads, can we know which ones precisely. Because, here, now, your reaction is that : reactionary.

Personnally I think that the bad clouds were on this side - self study may be useful at Avalon.

This will be my last post on this topic, I am too disappointed by such a way of thinking for the moment.

Flash,

I truly believe you are wrong about this, and I believe that you can prove it to yourself by going and reading a bit at Nexus. I noted several people that are actively trying, member to member within Nexus, to make a positive transformation. I saw one member that said he had personally gone back over 5 of his posts and removed what he felt was over-the top. And, he was asking, publicly, for others to do the same. I also saw a member of Nexus that recently lost his posting privileges at Avalon, and who is still upset about it, but who had the personal integrity to come to Inelia's defense, reminding people that they have gone hyperbolic in attempting to defame her, and asking people to back off. I was moved by that. It would have been very easy for that person to smolder and to be vindictive, but he showed personal integrity in the face of strong negativity.

I believe there is a sense within just a few of the Nexus members that they are in a protected bunker from which they can fire as a sniper, confusing freedom of speech with the freedom to slander, but I see other members with cooler heads and warmer hearts moving forward to lead the way toward civil discourse.

Do not dismiss the higher-energy work that was done by the members that came here to look for forgiveness and reconciliation. They have unleashed powerful, positive, magical energy. They may not have come from a position of "official authority" within the Nexus structure, but what a great example of regular folks, like you and me, taking the reins, and creating the change. Give them a little bit of time to work their magic.

Dennis

loveandgratitude
4th May 2011, 02:46
Beautifully spoken Denis. Thank you.

Kimberley
4th May 2011, 02:53
I will tell you that I only have read the first post in this thread.. just now... and am posting this not having read all the 6 pages posted...However this is so important and it is late for me now and I will come back with more tomorow...

IF YOU DO NOT JUDGE THERE IS NOTHING TO FORGIVE!!!!

ANd I will add this to ponder from :

Forgiveness from Annalee Skarin

(July 7, 1899 – January 17, 1988), the granddaughter of "Wild Bill" Hickman, was a popular New Age/Metaphysical author, originally raised in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church). She gained fame by claiming to believe in the possibility of attaining immortality through the ardent pursuit of Christian principles, which she summarized as gratitude, praise and love.

for more go to: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annalee_Skarin

And now my beloved I will give again the sacred keys on which the forgiveness of your sin is based. Forgive and you shall be forgiven. Those who can not forgive can not be forgiven. The very core of being forgiven is contained in the ability to forgive. Those who carry their grudges and hates and spirit of retaliation with them are carrying a burden of such deep darkness. They become acutely clothed in the darkness of their own dislikes. And so I speak gently these words for all have sinned. Your own great release will come when you can forgive. If you can not forgive you are carrying upon your shoulders your neighbors, your brothers failures and transgressions and you are also carrying the burden of your own sins, weaknesses, innumerable errors, and mistakes . When I commanded you to judge not lest you be judged, I was revealing the great eternal law by which you would escape the great judgment.

Much love to us ALL!!! :love:

kinerkid
4th May 2011, 03:58
Unbeknownst to you, this was, at least for a while a day ago, the "one large thread" you wish we had for this topic. The original poster knew that from the very beginning, as did I as soon as I saw it. However, necessarily so, he did not make his intention apparent in his first post because I had just closed down the three previous threads that were openly discussing the topic. So he had little choice but to disguise his intent with a generic discussion.

I actually thank you profusely for keeping this thread open and being willing to dialogue more fully on how forgiveness is defined in "Bill's House." It has been very informative and dare I say helpful for us to have had this dialogue. Since you kept this thread open, it looks like action is taking place over at Nexus, as Dennis pointed out. I sincerely hopes this leads everyone farther down the journey of reconciliation.

That being said, I also thank all the members who have contributed to this thread on their own views and expressions of forgiveness. I have learned a great deal from all of you.

jp11
4th May 2011, 05:36
Paul and Dennis, I'm a little late to this thread, having been out of town for a while. First thing that comes to mind is how do you have the time to moderate here and read all the stuff at Nexus too? ;)

I'm not sure who said it but I do agree: to ask for changes to be made on another forum is one thing, but to expect that to be heeded is quite another. It seems to me to be an issue of control, that really you as a PA moderator have no say in. About the slander, etc. against Bill and Inelia, etc. I've not read it, so I can't agree or disagree. But truly all is as it is meant to be for each of us to work through our own personal issues, including Bill and Inelia.

Paul I believe you stated that there was a dark 3rd party (a group perhaps) involved in this endeavor and if that is the case, then what they intended to accomplish, to divide and separate, has been achieved. Why add fuel to that flame? Those on the other forum who are indeed wise beings (and I'm sure there are many), who also want peace and harmony, will see this and do their part to have that be so, whether communicating on Nexus or PA. Speaking from personal experience, that desire (for love, peace and harmony) is not so easily deterred regardless of those who might wish or act to have that be so.

Opening the closed threads may not even be the issue as much as being willing to let go of what has already happened, allow Bill and Inelia to defend themselves, if they feel it is necessary, and instead come back to what PA is intended to do (IMHO)...provide a place for like minded people to express an alternative view of a world that is a kinder, gentler, and a more supportive place for all who wish to expand their consciousness...for the good of all.

I respect and admire your efforts to change what is to what you prefer it to be, but what is done is done. To leave it for all to see and therefore allow one to be able to look within oneself to find one's truth, is that not a better way to honor the wholeness of what we are?

At one point as I was reading some of this thread the song by George Harrison came to mind...you sue me and I'll sue you. And I ask, to what end?

With genuine love and respect to all,
:wave:

Flash
4th May 2011, 05:39
I saw one member that said he had personally gone back over 5 of his posts and removed what he felt was over-the top. And, he was asking, publicly, for others to do the same. I also saw a member of Nexus that recently lost his posting privileges at Avalon, and who is still upset about it, but who had the personal integrity to come to Inelia's defense[/B], reminding people that they have gone hyperbolic in attempting to defame her, and asking people to back off. I was moved by that. It would have been very easy for that person to smolder and to be vindictive, but he showed personal integrity in the face of strong negativity.

I believe there is a sense within just a few of the Nexus members that they are in a protected bunker from which they can fire as a sniper, confusing freedom of speech with the freedom to slander, but I see other members with cooler heads and warmer hearts moving forward to lead the way toward civil discourse.

Do not dismiss the higher-energy work that was done by the members that came here to look for forgiveness and reconciliation. They have unleashed powerful, positive, magical energy. They may not have come from a position of "official authority" within the Nexus structure, but what a great example of regular folks, like you and me, taking the reins, and creating the change. Give them a little bit of time to work their magic.

Dennis

Great, on this we agree. The bold I put in your text is precisely why blocking their very heartful choir thread was not needed. The work was pretty much already done (in the ether, coming right after in 3D) thanks to their opening (those who posted on the choir thread).

It is good that some are taking off from their own their harmful posts. It is good that things are turning around. Because this is what they want, of their free will.

Menacing and reacting by cutting off their willfull trial was not necessary, it only made Avalon run the risk of stiffening furthermore on the other side IMHO. Hopefully, this won't happen because this is, in facts, a pretty good bunch.

Asking them would have been certainly as efficient if not more efficient, once the opening is created.

OK I betrayed myself and did answer again. :rolleyes:

Steve C
4th May 2011, 07:51
Deleted post

;)

Fructedor
4th May 2011, 09:28
If you have two friends who enter into conflict, it’s only natural that you try and understand both sides of their dispute. You may then decide that one is right and the other wrong, or that both are partially right, or you may end up with an opinion that doesn’t favour either. But listening to and discussing the matter with both does not mean that you are siding with either.

As has been adequately pointed out by others, we’re all here in the first place (Avalon and/or Nexus, etc) because we decided to look for information and answers elsewhere than the consensual masquerade that passes for the ‘information media.’ From the point of view of the establishment, this may brand some of us as lunatics or traitors, but we know that’s not true – we’re simply trying to widen our capacity for understanding, which will guide us better on our own true path.

I wish I understood more about forgiveness – there’s one aspect of this discussion that I’d like to mention, however. Let’s not forget that a failure to forgive not only chains you, in the creative conscious, as victim to the hurt you’ve experienced, but also chains the other person to the role of evil-doer. Both need to be freed – we cannot avoid the truth that we are all inescapably linked together, and that we are all responsible for the connections we make and maintain.

Avalon / Nexus – oh dear me. From the Avalon point of view, apparently harm and slander are being inflicted on the community. From the Nexus point of view, some ex-Avalonians were deeply hurt by what they felt was unfair treatment, and express their distress. The identity of the first stone–thrower is entirely different depending on your point of view. It’s entirely reductive to claim, as some have, that a blinkered form of jingoistic ‘loyalty’ to one side or the other is the only correct stance. That just cements the blockage into place.

I have no personal stake in the matter, but in case anyone’s interested, it’s easy to look up my stance on the subject – like others, I’ve posted both here and there and will continue to do so as I see fit – and any posts concerning this particular conflict have been and will continue to be posted on both forums.

Finally, forgiveness – I live in France, and the French word for ‘forgiveness’ is ‘pardon’ – ‘par don’ which translates roughly as ‘by giving’ – my experience with ‘pardon’ is that it is not simply a giving of something vital by one person to another, but that the liberation which ensues, for both, is also a true gift from higher dimensions – it’s an unequivocal gift of love and freedom from a loving universe. How to achieve it? All I can say is that I didn’t do it myself, but I know clearly that my sincere desire to be able to move beyond the conflict that was destroying myself and the other person was the key to the manifestation of forgiveness. It is unconditional.

As for any vicious and deliberate slander – it’s quite possible that there are ‘moles’ working all over to promote division and distrust, but there are also people who are simply locked into negativity – why not simply ignore it? Demanding the retraction of negativity as a condition for forgiveness is self-defeating – you can not force change on anyone.

Thanks to everyone who has posted on this thread – I never saw the ‘Healing Choir’ thread, but I’m sure there were many intelligent and loving comments posted there also.

Best wishes

Fructedor

jjl
4th May 2011, 09:59
I am so happy this was posted at both sites. It is courageous and I commend you. Let the peace begin....(breathing)

oceanz
4th May 2011, 10:00
Forgiveness to me, is giving up the hope that past could've been different so I can be present for today and be there for tomorrow.

w1ndmill
4th May 2011, 11:10
Thanks Paul. Apology accepted and I see that Dennis and Inelia have also supported you with a thanks. No thanks for any other posts in the thread though, which says it all.

Sort yourselves out guys, you are ruining this place!

I will not be posting again, although I wish you all love, peace and joy always and will continue to support and donate to Project Avalon in the future.

RIGHT! Having heard it from the MODS, here's one from a ROCKER to play me out. Play it loud!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5sK_hOTBwY&feature=related

Linda
xxxxxxxxxxx

Fructedor
4th May 2011, 11:59
Love Jerry Lee!

Lord Sidious
4th May 2011, 12:04
Thanks Paul. Apology accepted and I see that Dennis and Inelia have also supported you with a thanks. No thanks for any other posts in the thread though, which says it all.

Sort yourselves out guys, you are ruining this place!

I will not be posting again, although I wish you all love, peace and joy always and will continue to support and donate to Project Avalon in the future.

RIGHT! Having heard it from the MODS, here's one from a ROCKER to play me out. Play it loud!!!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5sK_hOTBwY

Linda
xxxxxxxxxxx

I command thee, enter the light.

Damn, I just read your post properly.
Sorry to see you go Linda.
Be well and stay safe.
Come back when you want.

Snowbird
4th May 2011, 12:48
For some other perspectives I refer you to an archived thread from the predecessor of this forum that was started by illuminate, a shining star among us - who has not posted here for some time, but nevertheless, one from whom every post counted.

http://projectavalon.net/forum/showthread.php?t=19500


John..


illuminate - not only will you be freeing yourself from the pain, you will be doing what
I think is the greatest thing you could give another person besides
unconditional love... leading by example.

As Illuminate's archived quote above states, I too have been working through the issue of forgiving those who perpetuate massive long lasting miasma (a type of pollution). Illuminate describes in her excellent archived post above (thanks Anchor), she was two blocks from the towers on 9/11/2001. We have all been working through applying unconditional love and forgiveness to those who appear to be unlovable. This hasn't been an easy pursuit.

She also states that the future will hold acts by these same perpetrators that will equal and exceed 9/11. We have recently seen this come to pass. It is difficult for one individual person to forgive such heinousness, but collectively we can accomplish this and by leading by example, we can become that change that we want to see in this world.

Revere
4th May 2011, 14:55
w1indmill

Sort yourselves out guys, you are ruining this place!

I will not be posting again, although I wish you all love, peace and joy always and will continue to support and donate to Project Avalon in the future.

RIGHT! Having heard it from the MODS, here's one from a ROCKER to play me out. Play it loud!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5sK_...eature=related

Linda
xxxxxxxxxxx


w1indmill...You will be missed my good friend. It is Avalons loss once again! Where has that beautiful spirit gone here?

Must we hurt others before forgiving those who hurt us?


Sadly,

-R-

finally there!!!
4th May 2011, 15:42
FVBnkOL-8Jw Sometimes I just don't understand life!!
Am i the only one who feels like were going around in circles??

love and respect

Bill Ryan
4th May 2011, 17:48
---------

I can forgive someone who accepted an invitation to a party at my house, vomited on the carpet, and insulted the other guests.

But with that forgiveness I am not obliged to invite them to my house again.

bearcow
4th May 2011, 18:02
---------

I can forgive someone who accepted an invitation to a party at my house, vomited on the carpet, and insulted the other guests.

But with that forgiveness I am not obliged to invite them to my house again.

Come on Bill, it wouldn't be much of a party if there wasn't at least one person who vomited on the carpet!

only kidding

ace
4th May 2011, 18:37
Hi Bill

Would you consider dismantling the walls of your house and making it in to more of a open space. Wall's of house can be constricting, claustrophobic and bring with them boundary's, they also trap negative energy within them.

Would you consider a re location to a field (with a little shed in the corner for you to sleep)

This way all the energy would not be trapped within walls, people would be able to breath more easy.

And of course their is no chance of any body being sick on the carpet.

I know their have been times in my life I have been trapped by my own metaphors.

Regards
Ace

buffski
4th May 2011, 18:49
---------

I can forgive someone who accepted an invitation to a party at my house, vomited on the carpet, and insulted the other guests.

But with that forgiveness I am not obliged to invite them to my house again.

But the Healing Choir are but a choir, not a whole community...its cross-forum members are singing TO a community, here, and on other forums...and its song was not vibrating on the level of 'obligation' Bill, but on one of healing. It is offered with sincerity by those who signed their names...are we the 'vomiters'? No :) Can we not sing as a choir here? I do not wish for my voice to be stopped just because there are voices elsewhere that you are distracted by...I ask you to hear the message again, read those words, hear them.

Buffski xx

blake
4th May 2011, 18:54
Hi Bill

Would you consider dismantling the walls of your house and making it in to more of a open space. Wall's of house can be constricting, claustrophobic and bring with them boundary's, they also trap negative energy within them.

Would you consider a re location to a field (with a little shed in the corner for you to sleep)

This way all the energy would not be trapped within walls, people would be able to breath more easy.

And of course their is no chance of any body being sick on the carpet.

I know their have been times in my life I have been trapped by my own metaphors.

Regards
Ace

Hello Ace,

I understand what you are saying, and I think the essense of it has a lot of merit in which to ponder over. It also gave me a big chuckle. So thanks for posting, so honestly, what I would wage
others ,perhaps many, have had similiar thoughts.

Hello Mr. Ryan, and Moderators,

I truely hope you just don't see the humor in Ace's post, but I truely hope you all take the needed time to mediatate on the essense of what Ace is saying?


Sincerely,

Mr. Davis

BrianEn
4th May 2011, 19:29
Forgiveness is a time thing. If I ask someone for forgiveness, I must be at a point where I am truly ready to change my behavior. If I am not then I should have never asked for it in the first place. Nor will I expect you to forgive me and absolve me of my sins. That part is not up to me. It's the forgivee's option to allow that bridge to be rebuilt if at all. I can never force trust out of anyone. Trust is earned. When I added my name to the list on the Healing choir message, it was in hope of allowing a bridge to be built between us and those who wish to find a common ground. Maybe some things can heal, and some never heal.

Billiam
4th May 2011, 19:47
°°°Multi Forum Group Hug°°°

buffski
4th May 2011, 19:58
°°°Multi Forum Group Hug°°°

ABSOLUTELY....multi-forum group hug.... :)
Now lets all SING....any aspiring choir members welcome xx

janus
4th May 2011, 20:34
---------

I can forgive someone who accepted an invitation to a party at my house, vomited on the carpet, and insulted the other guests.

But with that forgiveness I am not obliged to invite them to my house again.

I appreciate your response, and agree with it completely...but I don't think that is what the Healing Choir is about in my opinion.

In my view, forgiveness can be considered a selfish act. It simply allows me to put closure to a situation that creates anger and hurt; and helps me to move on, free of the baggage that weighs me down, so I can rise above it. We all have choices. I choose peace of heart. Others choose what they feel they must, but that has nothing to do with me and everything to do with them.

I'm sorry they can't move on. I'm sorry we can't move on. Until there is unconditional forgiveness, we can only go so far in our growth. Forgiveness does not necessarily mean forget...it's more like agreeing to disagree. I don't like what has happened or what has been said, but it doesn't stop me from loving the people involved. We're all learning and trying to grow here, and we all make mistakes...some people can admit them and some cannot. It doesn't matter. Love them anyway. That's all.

A world of peace begins within each one of us. Why can't we be the ones to lead the way?

We are the music makers,
And we are the dreamers of dreams,
Wandering by lone sea-breakers,
And sitting by desolate streams;—
World-losers and world-forsakers,
On whom the pale moon gleams:
Yet we are the movers and shakers
Of the world for ever, it seems.

Written by Arthur William Edgar O'Shaughnessy

Tangri
4th May 2011, 20:36
---------

I can forgive someone who accepted an invitation to a party at my house, vomited on the carpet, and insulted the other guests.

But with that forgiveness I am not obliged to invite them to my house again.

Come on Bill, it wouldn't be much of a party if there wasn't at least one person who vomited on the carpet!

only kidding

If it is your house it is ok for me, I would not come to close that person, fair enough, you will clean the mess after math cause you like to have fun and it is your house

crownme
4th May 2011, 22:23
I'd like to start a discussion on forgiveness. What enables you to forgive? What perimeters do you place on it? What does forgiveness mean to you?

ellu all :)

forgivness, man tis is a heavy word :)

if you asked me many years ago i would probbally separated this into lots. but it seems like yesterday i forgave all and let everything go.

hardest of all, forgive myself, i mean for all. every tiny little memmory that ive ever felt disscomfort with. you may know these as "movies" suddenly appearing in your mind, in 1 splitt second you get served a whole embarrising memmory. one that you and only you feel discomfort with.

i let it go i forgave myself and it was like a rush, i really ment it and let everything go, my family, my friends, my exes, my schoolmates. everybody i just forgave and set free. that set me free.

i forgave all bad things ive seen through my life. every war big and small. every murdere and dictator. and then realisised how much ive really carryed on my shoulders, me crying in my hands for a whole planet and blaming myself and all others.

i forgave my enemies and let them go in peace. and suddenly found myself calm and focused. no more thoughts of what if i meet em. what if they do that. no i let them go and forgave each and everyone including myself, becouse in the act of forgiving them i saw my own faults and that i was in on the creatin as much as my enemy was. so then i could forgive myself for what ever ive done.

when i forgave all i found myself in a place where i could speak to humans without holding grudges, nor speaking behind their back, speaking truth and smiling.

im not going to say it was easy, not that all should do this. but man its worth it.

what enabeled me to forgive.. i never realised that i needed to do it...

sounds wierd huh :)

forgivness has no perimeters. there is no limit on who can you forgive. trust me on this. you can forgive and let go of anything. its all up to you. shure if you want to be in karma and hold both you and try and hold back another soul in the prosess becouse you are stubborn, be my gest. just saying you dont need to go through the pain. you can just with your inner voice bring up your moment and forgive all aspects and let it go. its not hard, its not painful, but it is scary.

you dont have to be a hippie, you dont have to be a christian. you dont have to be spritual ready, you dont need to acsend. just forgive

it is wonderful act to do for one self. and all the souls you let go, gives you peace.

what is means to me, it set me free in so many ways, so freedom. peace. calm.

namaste

manny
4th May 2011, 23:12
---------

I can forgive someone who accepted an invitation to a party at my house, vomited on the carpet, and insulted the other guests.

But with that forgiveness I am not obliged to invite them to my house again.
this makes me laugh.
a few years ago we got invited to a xmas party.
as usual the young ones gathered in the kitchen.
having a drinking contest.
the next minute a young man falls asleep in the living room on a chair.
so the rest decide to make up his face in make-up.
5 minutes later he started to vomit.
so i run into the kitchen to get a bowl.
many a people go into the kitchen because they do not want to see this.
he quickly fills the bowl.
i run to the kitchen to empty .
i start to heave,the person next to me starts to heave,
next minute there are about six people vomiting in the kitchen.
chain reaction.
everyone being sick....
ambulance called young lad taken away(he slept it off).
serious at the time.
but looking back.
it was sickly funny.
he did not know it was me who was trying to clean him up,and probably still doe,s not still.
but everyone forgave him.
it was just a learning curve for him.
his friends who started the drinking challenge,quickly disappeared.
he made a mistake encouraged by his peers and learned from it,i hope.
i would invite him to another party, if he has learned from his experience.
but i have not seen him since...;)

manny
4th May 2011, 23:45
and on the other side of the coin is..
people that take advantage of you thinking you are soft.
i tended to trust people.to easily.
and have been taken advantage of many a time.
so now i have built a brick wall.
of which may take a while.
when i let someone in it is wholeheartedly.
but then they seem to take this as a weakness and take advantage.
now this upsets me and i try and see it from their perspective.
do i forgive them .
yes i do.
but like Bill said your,er not welcome back.
being understanding,thoughtful,caring,loving,open.
can sometimes be seen as a weakness to others.
be careful.

astrid
5th May 2011, 00:55
Just a reminder of what is possible, and you better have the tissues ready for this one......


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKQA6I4BA7o

janus
5th May 2011, 02:06
and on the other side of the coin is..
people that take advantage of you thinking you are soft.
i tended to trust people.to easily.
and have been taken advantage of many a time.
so now i have built a brick wall.
of which may take a while.
when i let someone in it is wholeheartedly.
but then they seem to take this as a weakness and take advantage.
now this upsets me and i try and see it from their perspective.
do i forgive them .
yes i do.
but like Bill said your,er not welcome back.
being understanding,thoughtful,caring,loving,open.
can sometimes be seen as a weakness to others.
be careful.

No one can take advantage of you unless you allow it. Don't allow it. The secret is that you must also have understanding, thoughtfulness, care, love, openness and forgiveness for yourself as well as for others.:o

HaveBlue
5th May 2011, 02:28
If I was to say or do something you didn't like but you 'chose' to forgive me, yet I neither asked for nor accepted your forgiveness where does that leave you?

In fact, you are saying you are going to pretend I didn't say what I said and will disregard it. That may invite further 'happenings' you may want to 'forgive'.

Personally I usually (but not always) like to adopt the 'don't feed the trolls' style and disregard certain posts as ill thought out by tired and/or drunk or any other adjective you like and move on. This post is an exception of a sorts, still it is not aimed at anyone in particular.

Any court in any country looks for signs of remorse once you've been 'found guilty' of something and may even 'discharge without conviction' if they see fit.

These are interesting points to ponder (at least to me, hence why I post to see what others may think).

Inelia
5th May 2011, 06:03
Edit: I would like to thank those individuals who sent me links to this thread and also the stuff at Nexus. I would like to thank, honour and acknowledge your protective spirit, light and love. This here is my response to this situation. I will not be making any further engagement with this issue, and I hope this clarifies my personal position on these matters.

I understand that this thread is about the thread started by Sepia about something written in Nexus.

I've visited that site two or three times, had a look around and left. It's very dark, and quite honestly, inconsequential. I honestly have no attachment to what people say or think about me, it's none of my business. And, as I have acted as a mirror all my life, it is very, very interesting to read what others write about me, because that shows what they are up to and what they have done. That's why some look at me and see a light being helping out in the planet, and other see a puppet from an ET race trying to corrupt Bill. They are simply seeing themselves. Nothing to do with me.

With regard the question of forgiveness, in my opinion a person has to forgive themselves first and foremost. Then they can right the wrongs they have committed in real life.

Personally speaking, I don't think the Nexus members have anything to apologize for. Sepia and the other are responsible for their own thoughts, feelings and "beliefs" they have about Bill and myself - And their beliefs are not going to affect Bill and my mission in the least. Even killing our bodies will only be an illusion of "stopping us", because where we leave off, others will take over. We are not going to stop what we are doing, or stop walking in the sunshine because we are afraid of what might happen to our bodies or our mission, we'll just get on with it.

My question is, what on Earth are they so afraid of that they feel the need to fire so many missiles our way? Interesting huh.

To put it into context. I witnessed and lived through my family and many of our dearest friends being utterly destroyed, tortured, raped, broken, exiled, and some killed, due to our refusal to drop our ideals and our integrity. I, personally, have pledged to dedicate my life to raise the vibrational level of the planet, come what may. This whole thing with Nexus, Avalon and a few disgruntled members is being blown way out of proportion. IT IS NOT IMPORTANT. All it does is feed the drama, and it is simply an attempt to take attention from where it is really needed, our creating a higher vibrational personal life and our co-creating a higher vibrational planet.

* Informing ourselves and others to what is really happening on the planet (and beyond)
* Inspiring ourselves and other to take our power back, and create the lives we want NOW.
* Removing the illusion of authority that the elite have over the collective.
* Rehabilitating the spirit and body to it's full potential.

shijo
5th May 2011, 09:35
Inelia, were all mirrors to each other, its no special deal that only you have, and of course what you put out comes back to you , just like the rest of us, its just not useful to say that it has nothing to do with you.I wish you the best raising the vibrations of the world,with a little more humility you can do it, we all can, regards Shijo.

crownme
5th May 2011, 11:45
* Informing ourselves and others to what is really happening on the planet (and beyond)
* Inspiring ourselves and other to take our power back, and create the lives we want NOW.
* Removing the illusion of authority that the elite have over the collective.
* Rehabilitating the spirit and body to it's full potential.

waves :)

you say you dont care, but you obviously care enough to write it all here. and you dont care what others say? then why are you repeating what they have said then=? and why do you even dare to even toutch that you are this and that? and what you gone through. im sorry but all have their stories. nothing special..

but i had a few questions for you :)

what is really happening on the planet. we all know whats happening, even the ones you think are below you. but let me ask you this, what should you do if you got the "power" back? let everyone run free ? let every looter and angry human get their chances? what are you going to do with your precious information ?

take the power back. you want to rewrite that sentence ? you are alittle high here i must say, you sat "we" dont you mean you ? i sertantly dont agree with taking anypower back. so that leaves me for one out of the loop, and uhm still it says "we".
and what power? the power to rule? the power to be free? what power? if you had anypower as comming into this body, then that power is your no matter how much you want to give it away. or are you hinting at the power to rule with a good hand over planet earth? your way? all peace and loving, hoping everybody wants this and will follow this. im sorry but even if you got your "all-mighty-power", there would still be individuals dissagreeing with your plan. many thinks peace and love is booring, what are you gonna do with them? force em to hug with your power ?

removing the illusion.. it was the massess who wanted to be controlled, or you forgot that ? humans always go running to their presidents and politicians to make them fix their problems, and to rule. im sorry if you dont agree, but tis is the truth. the massess wants bigger better police to watch over them from other humans that may hurt them. humans wanted politicians to follow and create new rules for them and elected each their small leader. humans shout out about oil and food to the authority.

it is no illusion, through the times you humans have asked for this, and you can as easily take it away. but why dont you ? could it be maby that you actually are safe in your small little house, in front of your tiny screen. witch incidently the authorities and elites helped get to you.

it seems you think that by removing these things only you have the solution, well your solution. not for anyone else, just you. im sorry.
i call it the ego.

you think the wars are gonna stop becouse you removed some of the elites? have you ever seen a country without leaders ? without anyone to watch over the weak? have you seen tribe on trie cut down becouse there was no authority?

you think the money are suddenly magickly gonna be solved if you got your "power" ? or you got the sulution that a think-tank of 500 couldnt think of ?

i have to ask, are you naive ? you really think becouse you think goodoo and want good, that all else also wants this ?

rehabilitating the spirit and body... aaaand whats stopping you for doing exactly that now ? and what full potential ? you want to become a superhuman? to be special ? what ?

im not saying all this to pick at you or nothing of the sorts. i just want to know what your like uhm plan for these things ?

namaste

janus
5th May 2011, 12:40
I understand that this thread is about the thread started by Sepia about something written in Nexus.

Have you even read any of the threads on the Healing Choir? Or this one on forgiveness?


I've visited that site two or three times, had a look around and left. It's very dark, and quite honestly, inconsequential. I honestly have no attachment to what people say or think about me, it's none of my business. And, as I have acted as a mirror all my life, it is very, very interesting to read what others write about me, because that shows what they are up to and what they have done. That's why some look at me and see a light being helping out in the planet, and other see a puppet from an ET race trying to corrupt Bill. They are simply seeing themselves. Nothing to do with me.

There is a natural tendency in humans to see and feel what they expect. Where you see darkness and inconsequentiality, I see people hurting, trying to figure out what happened and why, and working it out as best they can. There is no right or wrong here...it's just a matter of perspective.


With regard the question of forgiveness, in my opinion a person has to forgive themselves first and foremost. Then they can right the wrongs they have committed in real life.

There is a much higher process and purpose to forgiveness than expressed here. I do understand what you are saying...I believed much the same when I used that argument as points in my disagreement with the Catholic Church and their belief in "confession" to a priest. I've learned a lot since then.


Personally speaking, I don't think the Nexus members have anything to apologize for. Sepia and the other are responsible for their own thoughts, feelings and "beliefs" they have about Bill and myself - And their beliefs are not going to affect Bill and my mission in the least. Even killing our bodies will only be an illusion of "stopping us", because where we leave off, others will take over. We are not going to stop what we are doing, or stop walking in the sunshine because we are afraid of what might happen to our bodies or our mission, we'll just get on with it.

What makes you think this is all about you and Bill and your mission? This is not about apologies...it's about forgiveness.


My question is, what on Earth are they so afraid of that they feel the need to fire so many missiles our way? Interesting huh.

My question is what are you, Bill and the mods so afraid of that a thread for those who seek reconciliation and forgiveness cannot be allowed on this forum?


I, personally, have pledged to dedicate my life to raise the vibrational level of the planet, come what may. This whole thing with Nexus, Avalon and a few disgruntled members is being blown way out of proportion. IT IS NOT IMPORTANT. All it does is feed the drama, and it is simply an attempt to take attention from where it is really needed, our creating a higher vibrational personal life and our co-creating a higher vibrational planet.

I, too, believe we need to create a higher vibrational personal life and co-create a higher vibrational planet. There are many ways of raising one's vibration, and forgiveness happens to be one of them. How can this "whole thing with Nexus, Avalon and a few disgruntled members" be blown way out of proportion if "IT IS NOT IMPORTANT"? It became important when a thread based on attempts at forgiveness and reconciliation were closed...not just one thread, but three of them. If it's not important, why not just let them flow? The vibrational level of the people posting will rise, raising the vibrational level of this forum and moving out into the world. At some point, there will be nothing left to say and the threads will "die a natural death".

I mean no disrespect. I'm just trying to understand what happened here and why.

Dennis Leahy
5th May 2011, 15:09
...There is a natural tendency in humans to see and feel what they expect. Where you see darkness and inconsequentiality, I see people hurting, trying to figure out what happened and why, and working it out as best they can. There is no right or wrong here...it's just a matter of perspective.
I have to disagree that there's no right and wrong here. Defamation, slander, and ad hominem attacks are wrong. I guess I'm just stunned if someone is a sincere and good person and they don't know right from wrong. "working [pain] out as best they can" by vindictively causing pain to others with smears, lies, and innuendo is clearly wrong. This isn't hypothetical or an academic exercise - there exists several threads and numerous torch and pitchfork posts at Nexus dedicated to the defamation of Bill and Inelia - attempting to destroy them.

You're right, it is a matter of perspective. There is a mob mentality at work - (not everyone at Nexus, but all who sharpen the pitchforks and fan the flames) - and if it was you that the mob was after, or one of your friends, I suspect your perspective would change drastically.




My question is what are you, Bill and the mods so afraid of that a thread for those who seek reconciliation and forgiveness cannot be allowed on this forum?
I'll just speak for myself. The specific list of individuals on the original Healing Choir thread have done nothing to me, personally, that I'm aware of, and don't need my personal forgiveness. An Cailleach/Elva is the only one I know (from conversations we've had), and I know her as a genuine beaming soul, full of compassion, and with a rebellious warrior's spirit. I consider her a friend, know she has not harmed me or anyone else, and believe that her deep compassion leads her to "sing in the healing choir" regardless of the fact that she has done no harm. I suspect her rebellious warrior spirit attracted her to Nexus, where (in my opinion) the "no censorship!" drums beat loudly and blur the line between "no censorship" and "no recourse for defamation, slander, and libel." There's no question that I sense and accept An Cailleach/Elva's compassion, passion, intelligence, and humor and know she understands we stand side-by-side in battle with Global Rulers. She has done nothing to me to need to apologize to me, and there is nothing for me to offer forgiveness. If anyone else on that list has a reason to apologize to me personally, for some lie or something mean-spirited that was said about me on Nexus, (or yes, even if they patted someone on the back with an 'attaboy' by "thanking" an attack post on me), then I would hope they first had the guts to offer a public apology and retraction on Nexus. Is that concept really so far "out there"? That a sincere apology for mean or slanderous remarks would include a retraction?

So, "what am I so afraid of"?
1.) That the Global Rulers are laughing at us, joyous that (to some degree) the heat is off of them
2.) That a handful of people who have the verbal skills to confuse others will implant the notion that the Avalon mods/admins/Bill are censoring ANY discourse.
3.) That a handful of people who have the verbal skills to confuse others will implant the notion that asking for forgiveness (from those who actually have a reason to ask for forgiveness) is sincere and meaningful even with a simultaneous refusal to make a retraction.
4.) That those who actually have a reason to ask for forgiveness, (and have not done so and who refuse to retract), will succeed in hiding behind the positive energy of the people who are the voices of the Healing Choir.

Dennis

Seikou-Kishi
5th May 2011, 15:24
I have to disagree that there's no right and wrong here. Defamation, slander, and ad hominem attacks are wrong.

With respect, Dennis (please interpret that as sincere; I know all too often 'with respect' means 'I'm about to treat you as disrespectfully as I can get away with'), the terms 'right' and 'wrong' require an objectivity in their ambit, that is to say, they prescribe the nature of the act as removed from consideration of agents and patients. Such a prescription requires that morality be objective, and since an objective morality cannot be maintained in logical argument, we are forced to conclude that no action in and of itself has a rightness or wrongness to it, but rather, we label actions as right or wrong according as we are pleased or displeased by them: when you are kind to me, I am gladdened by your kindness, and so I call it a good act, though in reality I am not describing (or prescribing) an objective state of affairs, but simply proclaiming my emotive response, to wit, when a man says an action is right or wrong, it should be understood to mean that he finds, in his subjective consideration, that particular action to be agreeable (according as it pleases him) or disagreeable (according as it displeases him).

And even if the whole world were to agree "Dennis's being nice to Seikou-Kishi is good/agreeable", it would not make it so, since the insurmountable fact-value gap precludes even a universal consensus of opinion attaining the status of fact.

Crake
5th May 2011, 15:28
Excellent thread.

A while back I wrote an article on this very subject. Please check it out if you like:

http://www.bookofjason.com/Forgiveness.htm

jjl
5th May 2011, 15:28
could you simplify Seikou? I dont follow

Dennis Leahy
5th May 2011, 15:53
I have to disagree that there's no right and wrong here. Defamation, slander, and ad hominem attacks are wrong.

With respect, Dennis (please interpret that as sincere; I know all too often 'with respect' means 'I'm about to treat you as disrespectfully as I can get away with'), the terms 'right' and 'wrong' require an objectivity in their ambit, that is to say, they prescribe the nature of the act as removed from consideration of agents and patients. Such a prescription requires that morality be objective, and since an objective morality cannot be maintained in logical argument, we are forced to conclude that no action in and of itself has a rightness or wrongness to it, but rather, we label actions as right or wrong according as we are pleased or displeased by them: when you are kind to me, I am gladdened by your kindness, and so I call it a good act, though in reality I am not describing (or prescribing) an objective state of affairs, but simply proclaiming my emotive response, to wit, when a man says an action is right or wrong, it should be understood to mean that he finds, in his subjective consideration, that particular action to be agreeable (according as it pleases him) or disagreeable (according as it displeases him).

And even if the whole world were to agree "Dennis's being nice to Seikou-Kishi is good/agreeable", it would not make it so, since the insurmountable fact-value gap precludes even a universal consensus of opinion attaining the status of fact.

Seikou-Kishi,

This seems pedantic and erudite. Can I ask you to maybe, "read between the lines" a little bit, and find the spirit of what I was saying instead of veering off into an exercise in semantics? We do each define "good and evil", "right and wrong", and there are not hard and cold distinctions for everything. But, I'm not talking about 'everything', just one specific thing, and I would ask you to read my words using your right brain as well as your heart.

Thanks!

Dennis

Agape
5th May 2011, 15:59
From my own corner of Universe , few cents if I may..

I'd well address these words, the thread and whole much more to Bill ( and yes, I'm sure, I know, one man can not take it ..all on his shoulders..)

In my opinion, a Project has a Future, these times and onwards ..and cults and sects and whatever's based on peoples believes ..will be fading .

Project based on research and timeless effort to find the rational of the truth , and reality we actually live in,
rather than living' in dream fields and enlightened ideas about what it should be ..but will not be, any soon.



As far as me is concerned, I don't feel like posting here any too much after all we've been through here..
I love the people, all of you, feel for you ..come here and read, sometimes type a reply and then hit the back button because it makes me feel totally useless .


It's not an exception to the law, this forum at all. There are people with clear minds and intellects that allow them to discriminate between truth and lies.

There are others who very much struggle with the concept and have to pass through countless challenging experiences in their life and they learn..

It's of course, both in one, we all have both these qualities in us to some extent and it's not to say one is more precious than the other.




People do not get hurt , here or anyone else , because of their believes or disbelieves. But they get hurt when they are misunderstood , doubted , when things are made to look the other way around .

If criticizing they are ignored. So people better keep quiet ...and others add more stress to the tune to be heard .



It's not that those who keep quiet agree ...and those who subscribe to your postings are friends ..

and not all who pose argument do so for evil purpose ..

Conspiracies again ..spoiled many good characters . Mistrust is disease hard to cure.



I hope the Project Avalon and its activities stays up for a good while yet ..and will be continued to better futures ..despite the bad grammar ..:lol:
I don't like talking and less than that writing, in vain ...








It's about the same everywhere in this world, when it comes to facing the truth. To have a knowledgable man keeping straight face yet not quite losing an ability to cry,
is rare occurance.

Isostool
5th May 2011, 16:00
I have to disagree that there's no right and wrong here. Defamation, slander, and ad hominem attacks are wrong.

With respect, Dennis (please interpret that as sincere; I know all too often 'with respect' means 'I'm about to treat you as disrespectfully as I can get away with'), the terms 'right' and 'wrong' require an objectivity in their ambit, that is to say, they prescribe the nature of the act as removed from consideration of agents and patients. Such a prescription requires that morality be objective, and since an objective morality cannot be maintained in logical argument, we are forced to conclude that no action in and of itself has a rightness or wrongness to it, but rather, we label actions as right or wrong according as we are pleased or displeased by them: when you are kind to me, I am gladdened by your kindness, and so I call it a good act, though in reality I am not describing (or prescribing) an objective state of affairs, but simply proclaiming my emotive response, to wit, when a man says an action is right or wrong, it should be understood to mean that he finds, in his subjective consideration, that particular action to be agreeable (according as it pleases him) or disagreeable (according as it displeases him).

And even if the whole world were to agree "Dennis's being nice to Seikou-Kishi is good/agreeable", it would not make it so, since the insurmountable fact-value gap precludes even a universal consensus of opinion attaining the status of fact.

Seikou-Kishi,

This seems pedantic and erudite. Can I ask you to maybe, "read between the lines" a little bit, and find the spirit of what I was saying instead of veering off into an exercise in semantics? We do each define "good and evil", "right and wrong", and there are not hard and cold distinctions for everything. But, I'm not talking about 'everything', just one specific thing, and I would ask you to read my words using your right brain as well as your heart.

Thanks!

Dennis


Dennis. Seikou-Kishi's post was beautiful and well constructed. It is literature. It made a pertinent point regarding the philosophy of judgement and reality. Things we get on here to talk about. I simply cannot believe you would deride it. *jaw on ground again* *Goes to play in a consciousness thread*

Seikou-Kishi
5th May 2011, 16:05
I have to disagree that there's no right and wrong here. Defamation, slander, and ad hominem attacks are wrong.

With respect, Dennis (please interpret that as sincere; I know all too often 'with respect' means 'I'm about to treat you as disrespectfully as I can get away with'), the terms 'right' and 'wrong' require an objectivity in their ambit, that is to say, they prescribe the nature of the act as removed from consideration of agents and patients. Such a prescription requires that morality be objective, and since an objective morality cannot be maintained in logical argument, we are forced to conclude that no action in and of itself has a rightness or wrongness to it, but rather, we label actions as right or wrong according as we are pleased or displeased by them: when you are kind to me, I am gladdened by your kindness, and so I call it a good act, though in reality I am not describing (or prescribing) an objective state of affairs, but simply proclaiming my emotive response, to wit, when a man says an action is right or wrong, it should be understood to mean that he finds, in his subjective consideration, that particular action to be agreeable (according as it pleases him) or disagreeable (according as it displeases him).

And even if the whole world were to agree "Dennis's being nice to Seikou-Kishi is good/agreeable", it would not make it so, since the insurmountable fact-value gap precludes even a universal consensus of opinion attaining the status of fact.

Seikou-Kishi,

This seems pedantic and erudite. Can I ask you to maybe, "read between the lines" a little bit, and find the spirit of what I was saying instead of veering off into an exercise in semantics? We do each define "good and evil", "right and wrong", and there are not hard and cold distinctions for everything. But, I'm not talking about 'everything', just one specific thing, and I would ask you to read my words using your right brain as well as your heart.

Thanks!

Dennis

My right brain and my what? :P

I don't think such a distinction is pedantic at all; if consciousness is the universal 'fabric', act, actor and acted upon are inseparable. If the principles of meta-ethical objectivism are to be bandied about as though they are assumed when they are unsupportable, I will, of course, endeavour to be vaguer and less precise, but you'll have to forgive me a little confusion.

Providence
5th May 2011, 16:08
The act of forgiveness is very multi-dimensional from my experiences (IMHO).
I find that the act of forgiveness is easier when I am dealing with some individuals, and incredibly more difficult when dealing with others. It seems that the closer the union, the more connected I am to that person, the more deeply I allow myself to be hurt which makes it even more difficult to stay focused and centered towards providing my forgiveness in the situation.
I guess because I feel I have such an investment in those close-knit relationships, the hurt runs very deep, very quickly, and it grows into a towering obstacle, when in reality my emotional reaction has blown it way out of proportion and it is truly nothing more than a small cobblestone in the pathway of life.
Forgiving others for real or perceived wrongs has become easier as I age, but i still struggle sometimes. I am continuing to grow towards a more enlightened perspective with each new experience and I believe that someday I will be at a place in my spiritual walk that I can see past the emotions, past the hurt, and give the people in my life that mean the most to me, my unconditional forgiveness.

Thank you for this post!

Still learning and growing....
Peace

Dennis Leahy
5th May 2011, 16:09
I have to disagree that there's no right and wrong here. Defamation, slander, and ad hominem attacks are wrong.

With respect, Dennis (please interpret that as sincere; I know all too often 'with respect' means 'I'm about to treat you as disrespectfully as I can get away with'), the terms 'right' and 'wrong' require an objectivity in their ambit, that is to say, they prescribe the nature of the act as removed from consideration of agents and patients. Such a prescription requires that morality be objective, and since an objective morality cannot be maintained in logical argument, we are forced to conclude that no action in and of itself has a rightness or wrongness to it, but rather, we label actions as right or wrong according as we are pleased or displeased by them: when you are kind to me, I am gladdened by your kindness, and so I call it a good act, though in reality I am not describing (or prescribing) an objective state of affairs, but simply proclaiming my emotive response, to wit, when a man says an action is right or wrong, it should be understood to mean that he finds, in his subjective consideration, that particular action to be agreeable (according as it pleases him) or disagreeable (according as it displeases him).

And even if the whole world were to agree "Dennis's being nice to Seikou-Kishi is good/agreeable", it would not make it so, since the insurmountable fact-value gap precludes even a universal consensus of opinion attaining the status of fact.

Seikou-Kishi,

This seems pedantic and erudite. Can I ask you to maybe, "read between the lines" a little bit, and find the spirit of what I was saying instead of veering off into an exercise in semantics? We do each define "good and evil", "right and wrong", and there are not hard and cold distinctions for everything. But, I'm not talking about 'everything', just one specific thing, and I would ask you to read my words using your right brain as well as your heart.

Thanks!

Dennis


Dennis. Seikou-Kishi's post was beautiful and well constructed. It is literature. It made a pertinent point regarding the philosophy of judgement and reality. Things we get on here to talk about. I simply cannot believe you would deride it. *jaw on ground again* *Goes to play in a consciousness thread*

And, I cannot believe that you call my post derision of Seikou-Kishi's. You know better. Seikou-Kishi is obviously very bright, with an excellent command of language, and I ask Seikou-Kishi to address the spirit of my words. My words were simple, direct, and honest. Do you have a comment about "forgiveness" and my reply to Belle?

Dennis

Dennis Leahy
5th May 2011, 16:33
My right brain and my what? :P

I don't think such a distinction is pedantic at all; if consciousness is the universal 'fabric', act, actor and acted upon are inseparable. If the principles of meta-ethical objectivism are to be bandied about as though they are assumed when they are unsupportable, I will, of course, endeavour to be vaguer and less precise, but you'll have to forgive me a little confusion.

hahahhahaha good one, you made me chuckle! It's true that some of the very brightest intellects sometimes need to be reminded to read with their heart.

I said:
I have to disagree that there's no right and wrong here. Defamation, slander, and ad hominem attacks are wrong.
So, reading that with your heart, without seeing it as meta-ethical objectivism, on a 3D human level, do you dismiss defamation, slander, and ad hominem attacks on other persons as harmless? If so, perhaps you've evolved so far past me I am unable to communicate. I admit that I still separate the experience of my brain and soul activity into theoretical/mental constructs/concepts/ideas and what I consider concrete reality. In other words, if someone was throwing chunks of concrete at you, and I could stop them, I would try. I see the defamation, slander, and ad hominem attacks on other beings (admittedly, with a soft spot for friends) as having leaped out from theoretical/mental constructs/concepts/ideas and into the concrete world.

Dennis

janus
5th May 2011, 16:41
Dennis, I hold no ill will to anyone. There were some things Inelia posted that I was seeking clarity on and discussion of the differences between her viewpoint and mine. I intended nothing more than to understand Inelia and her viewpoint better and sought a discussion on it.

I'm not looking for an argument or to decide who is "right" or who is "wrong" or to play verbal chess. On the one hand Inelia feels that what others say about her reflects more on who they are than anything else (if I may paraphrase...correct me if I'm wrong in my understanding). On the other hand you, Paul and Bill appear to have taken it as a deliberate, personal attack that requires defending.

My intent was not to offend, but to seek understanding by sharing my thoughts and asking questions. Feel free to read my posting history, Dennis. Feel free to pm me at any time. I think you will find that I am sincere in my desire to understand and find common ground with others wherever possible.

Seikou-Kishi
5th May 2011, 16:47
My right brain and my what? :P

I don't think such a distinction is pedantic at all; if consciousness is the universal 'fabric', act, actor and acted upon are inseparable. If the principles of meta-ethical objectivism are to be bandied about as though they are assumed when they are unsupportable, I will, of course, endeavour to be vaguer and less precise, but you'll have to forgive me a little confusion.

hahahhahaha good one, you made me chuckle! It's true that some of the very brightest intellects sometimes need to be reminded to read with their heart.

I said:
I have to disagree that there's no right and wrong here. Defamation, slander, and ad hominem attacks are wrong.
So, reading that with your heart, without seeing it as meta-ethical objectivism, on a 3D human level, do you dismiss defamation, slander, and ad hominem attacks on other persons as harmless? If so, perhaps you've evolved so far past me I am unable to communicate. I admit that I still separate the experience of my brain and soul activity into theoretical/mental constructs/concepts/ideas and what I consider concrete reality. In other words, if someone was throwing chunks of concrete at you, and I could stop them, I would try. I see the defamation, slander, and ad hominem attacks on other beings (admittedly, with a soft spot for friends) as having leaped out from theoretical/mental constructs/concepts/ideas and into the concrete world.

Dennis

I'm not sure if "3D human" is intended to be a denigration of my assessment of your argument, but if it is, it would seem that we Avalonians are going to have to move out, what with all the straw-men that're moving in.

I'll have to beg your most gracious magnanimity; being presented only with your words, I interpreted only those. I might ask that next time you intend the meaning of your words to be distilled out of the æther, rather than taking you at your word, you might signpost that fact by, oh, I don't know, describing complex meta-ethical ideas with colours, or tell me how they taste on your superconscious, multi-dimensional tongue. I fear that, should your heart be insufficiently advanced, you may mistake the inner soul of my profundissimum. I, however, am not without my kindness; if you find my 'blithering idiot mode' incomprehensible, I could agree with you to exchange ideas the old fashioned way: with a logical sequence of words.

Edit: Perhaps this little foray ought to stop XD

Dennis Leahy
5th May 2011, 17:20
My right brain and my what? :P

I don't think such a distinction is pedantic at all; if consciousness is the universal 'fabric', act, actor and acted upon are inseparable. If the principles of meta-ethical objectivism are to be bandied about as though they are assumed when they are unsupportable, I will, of course, endeavour to be vaguer and less precise, but you'll have to forgive me a little confusion.

hahahhahaha good one, you made me chuckle! It's true that some of the very brightest intellects sometimes need to be reminded to read with their heart.

I said:
I have to disagree that there's no right and wrong here. Defamation, slander, and ad hominem attacks are wrong.
So, reading that with your heart, without seeing it as meta-ethical objectivism, on a 3D human level, do you dismiss defamation, slander, and ad hominem attacks on other persons as harmless? If so, perhaps you've evolved so far past me I am unable to communicate. I admit that I still separate the experience of my brain and soul activity into theoretical/mental constructs/concepts/ideas and what I consider concrete reality. In other words, if someone was throwing chunks of concrete at you, and I could stop them, I would try. I see the defamation, slander, and ad hominem attacks on other beings (admittedly, with a soft spot for friends) as having leaped out from theoretical/mental constructs/concepts/ideas and into the concrete world.

Dennis

I'm not sure if "3D human" is intended to be a denigration of my assessment of your argument, but if it is, it would seem that we Avalonians are going to have to move out, what with all the straw-men that're moving in.

I'll have to beg your most gracious magnanimity; being presented only with your words, I interpreted only those. I might ask that next time you intend the meaning of your words to be distilled out of the æther, rather than taking you at your word, you might signpost that fact by, oh, I don't know, describing complex meta-ethical ideas with colours, or tell me how they taste on your superconscious, multi-dimensional tongue. I fear that, should your heart be insufficiently advanced, you may mistake the inner soul of my profundissimum. I, however, am not without my kindness; if you find my 'blithering idiot mode' incomprehensible, I could agree with you to exchange ideas the old fashioned way: with a logical sequence of words.

Right now, it tastes bitter, and off-color. I surrender to your thesaurus, and ask, again, for you to reply to the spirit of my words (which so far, you have skirted.)

"Defamation, slander, and ad hominem attacks are wrong." Agree or disagree? This isn't a straw-man 'argument', and circumventing real issues between real people by pretending that my words are incomprehensible is disingenuous and off topic.

Dennis

Seikou-Kishi
5th May 2011, 17:21
I direct you to the edit of my previous post... it seems to me to be for the best.

Dennis Leahy
5th May 2011, 17:28
I direct you to the edit of my previous post... it seems to me to be for the best.

Agreed. Forgive me? :~)

Dennis

Seikou-Kishi
5th May 2011, 17:43
Witty to the last, I see :P
Sure, and you me? XD

Dennis Leahy
5th May 2011, 18:00
Witty to the last, I see :P
Sure, and you me? XD

Absolute absolution!

"Misereatur tui omnipotens Deus, et dimissis peccatis tuis, perducat te ad vitam æternam. Amen.

Indulgentiam, absolutionem, et remissionem peccatorum tuorum tribuat tibi omnipotens et misericors Dominus. Amen.

Dominus noster Jesus Christus te absolvat: et ego auctoritate ipsìus te absolvo ab omni vinculo excommunicationis, (suspensionis), et interdicti, in quantum possum, et tu indiges. Deinde ego te absolvo a peccatis tuis, in nomine Patris, et Filii, + et Spiritus Sancti. Amen.

Passio Domini nostri Jesu Christi, merita beatæ Mariæ Virginis, et omnium Sanctorum, quidquid boni feceris, et mali sustinueris, sint tibi in remissionem peccatorum, augmentum gratiæ, et præmium vitæ æternæ. Amen."

(from something you mentioned in our PM chat. I hope you find this as funny as I did. I was raised Catholic, back in the day when I had to learn Latin or my knuckles suffered at the hands of the 'holy' sisters.)

Dennis

Lord Sidious
5th May 2011, 18:05
Ok, now you boys have finished wrestling, you can hit the showers.
And no peeking at each other! :p

Seikou-Kishi
5th May 2011, 18:16
Haha I love this :D

Mike
5th May 2011, 18:19
i can't help but feel like i have been reading a debate between captain kirk and mr. spock. ;)

you've both represented yourselves well, so as Sidious said "off to the showers!"

sepia
5th May 2011, 18:24
----

Although it was Inelia's post that motivated me to write
I prefer to take it beyond a personal interaction or argument.

Added for clarification:
I like to take the chance to clarify between spiritual and astral aspects.


When I decided to live my life according to spiritual principles I also decided



that I never support Personalities / Egos...
(I was led into this trap again and again and always regret.)
.
that I always - with no exceptions - support beings
in their attempt to reach higher truth and spirituality.



Where ever I see the fragile plant of spirituality grow, I will protect it, wether it is



longing for spirituality
.
honesty and love for truth
.
humility (the kind which is always connected with dignity - not with putting oneself down in devaluation.)
.
repent and asking for forgiveness and forgive
.
gratefulness for the unfolding of the divine in this reality
.
And any attempt to take responsibility.

Spirituality, Responsibility, Compassion and Love grow simultaneously
in the same pace as we grow on our spiritual journey.

And a true spiritual path will lead us to a deep understanding that we all are one. -


----

The following aspects I will never support because they lead away from spirituality:



Any implication of anyone to be 'better', 'special' or 'superior' in any way.
This might be the right thing for a movie star, but no spiritual teacher will ever imply this.
.
Any lies - they are either used to support the "I-am-special-image" or the "I-am-not-as-bad-as-you-think-I-am-image - which both are lies anyway.
.
Lies swim well in water and come to the surface sooner or later...
Don't blame those who find them.


Sepia

sepia
5th May 2011, 18:42
They are simply seeing themselves. Nothing to do with me.



You might be wrong...

Dorok
5th May 2011, 18:55
Forgiveness is something done within, and it's done to heal yourself. It's also done to stop the wheel of karma by preventing yourself from retaliatory thoughts and actions. It is not something given to another, nor is it something another can ask from you.

Apologies are completely different.

And on that note, I will apologize for being pedantic, but I have issues with discussions about ill defined concepts. :)

K626
5th May 2011, 18:58
----

Although it was Inelia's post that motivated me to write
I prefer to take it beyond a personal interaction or argument.


When I decided to live my life according to spiritual principles I also decided



that I never support Personalities / Egos...
(I was led into this trap again and again and always regret.)
.
that I always - with no exceptions - support beings
in their attempt to reach higher truth and spirituality.



Where ever I see the fragile plant of spirituality grow, I will protect it, wether it is



longing for spirituality
.
honesty and love for truth
.
humility (the kind which is always connected with dignity - not with putting oneself down in devaluation.)
.
repent and asking for forgiveness and forgive
.
gratefulness for the unfolding of the divine in this reality
.
And any attempt to take responsibility.

Spirituality, Responsibility, Compassion and Love grow simultaneously
in the same pace as we grow on our spiritual journey.

And a true spiritual path will lead us to a deep understanding that we all are one. -


----

The following aspects I will never support because they lead away from spirituality:



Any implication of anyone to be 'better', 'special' or 'superior' in any way.
This might be the right thing for a movie star, but no spiritual teacher will ever imply this.
.
Any lies - they are either used to support the "I-am-special-image" or the "I-am-not-as-bad-as-you-think-I-am-image - which both are lies anyway.
.
Lies swim well in water and come to the surface sooner or later...
Don't blame those who find them.


Sepia

I love the way you write Sepia, the clarity is intense.


Peace

K

NancyV
5th May 2011, 19:09
Meta-ethical objectivism, oh yes, let us all aspire to meta-ethical objectivism! (please hear the slight sarcasm here) I had wonderful lessons in this from my mother from the time I was born. After I left home at 16 I would call her occasionally and tell her my adventures, many of which were rather dangerous and often violent with me occasionally being hurt, kidnapped, raped, etc. Without fail she would always comment in her most brilliant meta-ethically objectivist voice, "How WONDERFUL, darling! I'm sure you learned so much from that experience". She could never be brought down from her heights of meta-ethical objectivism. She did not live in the "concrete" world where lesser beings offend and take offense, hurt and get hurt, feel intense love and intense anger. She was above it all, truly existing on a different plane of existence. (and probably insane)

There is a time for evolved detachment and there is a time for participating in the concrete world we live in, although we are all here for different reasons and different lessons and our timing differs. So what is right for me at any given time is not necessarily right for you. I prefer to have the flexibility to choose when to participate in the real world as a person who makes judgments and decisions based on what feels good and what doesn't feel so good but still retain my knowledge that none of this matters in the least and that we can be above it all and not be affected if we so choose.

Unlike my mother who was inflexibly objective, amoral, non judgmental, agnostic and meta-ethical, I can jump into any stage of any game and communicate on the level of any of the players in the game. Those who see things consistently more objectively often miss out on the lessons and delights of subjectivity. Those who take everything personally, subjectively, have little clue that one can simply not care how others speak, act or what they think. There is a balance of objectivity and subjectivity that allows one to be flexible and more effective in this 3D world. We don't have to choose one over the other. We can see things from both perspectives at the same time and choose our actions and responses based on full knowledge of all perspectives.

I agree with Inelia in that I do not care one little bit how nasty some people on Nexus (and also Avalon) are being. From my objective perspective their words do not affect me. From my subjective point of view they are being immature, vitriolic and deliberately nasty. Some of them have an obsession with smearing Bill and Inelia. I can't figure it out but I guess that's their form of fun. In my subjective persona I do NOT LIKE people like this, even if I previously liked them. I will not choose to be around them or engage with them in the future. Now I know what they are like in this type of situation and I can not expect them to change in the future. This has nothing to do with forgiveness.

Instead of saying "Defamation, slander, and ad hominem attacks are wrong", I would say defamation, slander and ad hominem attacks are unacceptable to me. People who engage in this behavior do not want or need my forgiveness and I do not need to give forgiveness. They are who they are. What they say about someone I care about is either acceptable or unacceptable to me. They will either eventually shut up or keep on whining and attacking. In the meantime I now know who they are and what levels of behavior seem acceptable to them. Good lessons all around.

danjenks007
5th May 2011, 19:12
Forgiveness is a source of cleansing to the soul (infinite energy), if we dont forgive our enemys then we become them in a mild form ( dense energy) , we should always forgive, but this is the hardest thing to do as human beings as we are weak in this dimension and are being tested for our abilities to apply the correct methods and the only ones that will alow our connectivety to the next moment (life experience)

Its like putting a dam in a river that will build the water up and we choose then to ease the water out slowly with much stress and strain on the dam or not at all!

please forgive me if this is incorrect or you do not agree, thankyou

edina
5th May 2011, 19:21
Dennis, I agree it is very important to listen with your heart, and to feel for the spirit, the heart of which a person speaks.

Here's a quote I bumped into yesterday, I think it is gorgeous and wanted to share it here, on this wonderful thread, where people are exploring forgiveness:

"To listen is to lean in softly, with a willingness to be changed by what we hear." Mark Nepo

Inelia, I happen to agree with you very much!!!! :) What people say about me is more a reflection of them than me, when someone is telling me how they perceive another person, they are very often letting me know far more about them than the other person. I tend to take gossip and people venting with a grain of salt, but then I tend to take myself with a grain of salt, too. :p

I have enjoyed reading this thread very much, there have been many beautiful nuggets of insights shared here. I feel richer for having simply read the heartfelt comments so far posted.

I'd like to share with everyone the Course in Miracles concept of forgiveness to continue the conversation on "forgiveness" and what it means to you, this is long, please forgive me, but I feel it may be relevant to the topic of this thread, there are some references to Christ here, please translate these references into terms that are meaningful to you. And I pray that this is freely received in the spirit it is freely given.

Forgiveness - The Face of Christ

Forgiveness is for God, and toward God but not of Him. It is impossible to think of anything He created that could need forgiveness. Forgiveness, then, is an illusion, but because of its purpose, which is the Holy Spirit's, it has one difference. Unlike all other illusions it leads away from error and not towards it.

Forgiveness might be called a kind of happy fiction; a way in which the unknowing can bridge the gap between their perception and the truth. They cannot go directly from perception to knowledge because they do not think it is their will to do so. This makes God appear to be the enemy instead of what He really is. And it is just this insane perception that makes them unwilling to merely rise up and to return to Him in peace.

And so they need an illusion of help because they are helpless; a Thought of peace because they are in conflict. God knows what His Son needs before he asks. He is not at all concerned with form, but having given the content it is His Will that it be understood. And that suffices. The form adapts itself to the need; the content is unchanging, as eternal as its Creator.

The face of Christ has to be seen before the memory of God can return. The reason is obvious. See the face of Christ involves perception. No one can look on knowledge. But the face of Christ is a great symbol for forgiveness. It is salvation. It is the symbol of the real world. Whoever looks on this is no longer sees the world. He is as near as Heave as is possible outside the gate. Yet from this gate it is no more than just a step inside. It is a final step. And this we leave to God.

Forgiveness is a symbol, too, but as the symbol of His Will alone it cannot be divided. And so the Unity that it reflects becomes His Will. It is the only thing still in the world in part, and yet the bridge to Heaven.

God' Willis all there is. WE can but go from nothingness to everything; from hell to Heaven. Is this a journey? No, not in truth, for truth goes nowhere. But illusions shift from place to place; from time to time. The final step is also but a shift. As a perception it is part unreal. And yet this part will vanish. What remains is peace eternal and the Will of God.

There are no wishes now for wishes change. Even the wished for can become unwelcome. That must be so because the ego cannot be at peace. But Will is constant, as the gift of God. And what he gives is always like Himself. This is the purpose of the face of Christ. It is the gift of God to save His Son. But look on this and you have been forgiven.

How lovely does the world become in just that single instant when you see the truth about yourself reflected there. Now you are sinless and behold your sinlessness. Now you are holy and perceive it so. And now the mind returns to its Creator; the joining of the Father and the Son, the Unity of unities that stand behind all joining but beyond them all. God is not seen but only understood. His Son is not attacked but recognized.

Remember to please translate the meaning of these words into the spiritual language you are most comfortable with. I can see a lot of Bhudda here, and Hindu, and Tao, and the concept of the Great Spirit that lives in All Life and WE BEing the reference to the Son of God. You may try the Creator, and Creation, or translate this into Nature/Wiccan terms.

I happen to be one of the people singing in the Healing Choir. (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?19661-Healing-Choir) And, I do not consider myself an unwitting patsy. I do believe that I have served as a vehicle/instrument/channel for the expression of the Spirit of Grace. In some ways we are all vehicles/instruments/channels/voices for Spirit. As least this is the way I perceive reality.

In any given moment we create by what we chose to feel in our hearts, and by what we chose to bear witness to in our lives.

I'd like to gently remind people here that the Healing Choir (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?19661-Healing-Choir) thread was a genuine heartfelt sharing of personal experiences and insights that the people singing in the choir spontaneously and naturally resonated with. I saw it more as a celebration of what is possible, of how each of us, when we become authentic to our True Self and live to the highest principles we are capable of imagining are always becoming the person we dream we could become in the quietness of our hearts. To me, the people who sang in this choir spoke to what is possible and to what I would love for humanity to become.

It has been made into a some sort of an issue about disagreements between Avalon and Nexus. However, the Healing Choir (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?19661-Healing-Choir) thread wasn't ever intended to be about that issue. It was posted in four forums, Project Camelot, Avalon, Nexus, and the Mysts of Avalon because the people singing were changed by their insights, and wanted to share this with everyone in unity.

I am concerned that personal thoughts/experiences I shared with moderators here at PA may have colored the way they perceived the intent of "The Healing Choir' (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?19661-Healing-Choir) thread. And I feel that what I thought I was sharing and how it seems to me to be perceived is very different. I want to apologise to everyone involved for how my words may have created this misunderstanding.

I cannot speak for how anyone else experienced the events leading up and culminating in the posting of "The Healing" Thread. (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?19661-Healing-Choir) I can speak for how I experienced it. I considered it miraculous. I watched people emerge from the five stages of grief (http://www.google.com/search?q=five+stages+of+grief&hl=en&client=ubuntu&hs=HB6&channel=fs&prmd=ivns&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=ukDETZD7EIL30gHOoOXvBw&ved=0CEQQsAQ&biw=1636&bih=831) in a loving and accepting environment at Nexus and I saw people's hearts change. To me this was most graceful to witness.

I am honored to be one of the singers in the choir, and I am honored to know each and everyone who sings with me.

Also from the Course in Miracles: The miracle forgives; the ego damns.
Projection makes perception.

And: Nothing real can be threatened.
Nothing unreal exists.
Herein lies the peace of God.

To me, forgiveness is when I can so empathise with another person that I no longer see them as separate from me, when I perceive souls who pretend to be my enemies, as the true friends they truly are.

Forgiveness is a giving/receiving on my part, giving freely to see my other self as my self and in so doing we both become free. This means anyone is free to accept/reject the gift, there are no attachments, or conditions, for the outcome.

It just is,

The cool thing about this,is that the giving and the receiving are one act. WE give from who we are, and we receive from who we are. There is no right or wrong on the matter. It simply is.

The miracle is natural, it has already happened. The only choice left to any one of us now, is, do we want to share in the experience of it, or not.

This is a free will choice, only you can decide how you want to experience it.

buffski
5th May 2011, 19:50
thankyou Edina, you have defined the intent of the Heling Choir with graceful accuracy.

Avalon, will you please reinstate the Healing Choir thread...please read edina's post above, and hear those words from the choir.

greybeard
5th May 2011, 20:32
Everyone genuinely thinks they are right and doing the right thing--- that is everyone without exception is acting for the best.

That is a quote from the relationship thread.
It may seem of topic.
It may be helpful
Have a look at the thread if the subject interests you

Chris

Revere
5th May 2011, 21:01
---------

I can forgive someone who accepted an invitation to a party at my house, vomited on the carpet, and insulted the other guests.

But with that forgiveness I am not obliged to invite them to my house again.

I thought maybe a review of this analogy below might be a bit more on target for this Thread. IMO! No offense intended Bill.


http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+15%3A11-32&version=NIV

I see a difference between excusing behavior and forgiving. We each only know what trully is in our own hearts but, we often show it by our actions.

Peace,

-R-

Donna O
5th May 2011, 21:40
Really good post Nancy imho. I sometimes wonder what we are doing here in the first place if we are supposed to elevate ourselves up to the point of not caring. Of course these ugly things like argument, mud slinging, distrust and duplicitous behavior are important!! They do need our attention.

I said to Lord Sid in one of my posts, our polarity is our education…. If we continually try to float angelic like above it all, singing about love, light and forgiveness, then what’s the bloody point of turning up for school?

Those of us who have made it to a place like Avalon are surely aware of the message of love and light and are hopefully working with this firmly in mind, but this is merely an ideal that we must slowly move towards whilst the real hard work of evolving is going on down here in the murky grey domain of polarity.

Actions bear consequences. People need to be held accountable. Injustice needs to be stopped. If I ‘sin’, then my own conscience punishes me for it. For those who seem to learn nothing from their mistakes, they have to be led through the process and someone has to do it!

It’s always good to keep our feet planted firmly on the ground whilst we ponder the stars.


Meta-ethical objectivism, oh yes, let us all aspire to meta-ethical objectivism! (please hear the slight sarcasm here) I had wonderful lessons in this from my mother from the time I was born. After I left home at 16 I would call her occasionally and tell her my adventures, many of which were rather dangerous and often violent with me occasionally being hurt, kidnapped, raped, etc. Without fail she would always comment in her most brilliant meta-ethically objectivist voice, "How WONDERFUL, darling! I'm sure you learned so much from that experience". She could never be brought down from her heights of meta-ethical objectivism. She did not live in the "concrete" world where lesser beings offend and take offense, hurt and get hurt, feel intense love and intense anger. She was above it all, truly existing on a different plane of existence. (and probably insane)

There is a time for evolved detachment and there is a time for participating in the concrete world we live in, although we are all here for different reasons and different lessons and our timing differs. So what is right for me at any given time is not necessarily right for you. I prefer to have the flexibility to choose when to participate in the real world as a person who makes judgments and decisions based on what feels good and what doesn't feel so good but still retain my knowledge that none of this matters in the least and that we can be above it all and not be affected if we so choose.

Unlike my mother who was inflexibly objective, amoral, non judgmental, agnostic and meta-ethical, I can jump into any stage of any game and communicate on the level of any of the players in the game. Those who see things consistently more objectively often miss out on the lessons and delights of subjectivity. Those who take everything personally, subjectively, have little clue that one can simply not care how others speak, act or what they think. There is a balance of objectivity and subjectivity that allows one to be flexible and more effective in this 3D world. We don't have to choose one over the other. We can see things from both perspectives at the same time and choose our actions and responses based on full knowledge of all perspectives.

I agree with Inelia in that I do not care one little bit how nasty some people on Nexus (and also Avalon) are being. From my objective perspective their words do not affect me. From my subjective point of view they are being immature, vitriolic and deliberately nasty. Some of them have an obsession with smearing Bill and Inelia. I can't figure it out but I guess that's their form of fun. In my subjective persona I do NOT LIKE people like this, even if I previously liked them. I will not choose to be around them or engage with them in the future. Now I know what they are like in this type of situation and I can not expect them to change in the future. This has nothing to do with forgiveness.

Instead of saying "Defamation, slander, and ad hominem attacks are wrong", I would say defamation, slander and ad hominem attacks are unacceptable to me. People who engage in this behavior do not want or need my forgiveness and I do not need to give forgiveness. They are who they are. What they say about someone I care about is either acceptable or unacceptable to me. They will either eventually shut up or keep on whining and attacking. In the meantime I now know who they are and what levels of behavior seem acceptable to them. Good lessons all around.

Mike
5th May 2011, 22:20
hi NancyV,

gotta agree with leelah - your post was brilliant! one of the best i've read in a while. perfectly put. thank you!

ghostrider
5th May 2011, 22:53
for me it's seeing the world through the eyes of the person needing forgiveness, I must forgive to be forgiven. as long as we are human we will make mistakes, you only learn when you make a mistake.

Anchor
6th May 2011, 00:02
Meta-ethical objectivism

NancyV what an awesome post.

It needs reading twice at least.

It brings to mind the notion of denial, a denial justified by some distorted spiritual hands-off perspective. It attempts to absolve the denier of responsibility - which of course can NEVER happen.

If I throw a punch, or even a harsh word, even if, by some contorted or even real logic I felt justified at the time, there is still the fact that:

1) I am responsible for this trespass
2) Forgiveness is required

Sooner or later, I know am going to feel awful about it or suffer the mechanics of karmic balancing

However I cannot realistically expect to be forgiven until

1) I stopped throwing punches
2) An environment whereby some measure of reconciliation and understanding has been achieved by the self and other-selves and the context in which forgiveness is made.

From my perspective, the core issue is that the "forgiveness" initiative, which I believe was for things that happened in the near past has been mixed up with the ongoing throwing of monkey-poo in the almost immediate past.

This issue is as important as people make it.

I am not sure that the healing choir is about the current Avalon/Nexus situation, wherein Bill and Inelia are being challenged / ("smeared") some of the members who are project every apparent inconsistency as some "fait-a-complit" or a "debunking slam-dunk" in a disrespectful and possibly ad-hominem manner.

Hypothetically, for a moment, separate that from what I thought this might have been about in the first place which was largely the events and separation pains that happened a few months ago - these are all a set of potentially forgivable events.

It is obviously going to seem confusing and hypocritical if some of the people are part of both of these sets of people (and Avalon is also a common factor). Can this be untangled?

Two groups are separating according to what I see normal and natural change processes - the liquids have become immiscible - not everyone can complete this process easily - but it will complete as surely as water runs downhill.

Forgiveness for the things that happened to cause it, is valid, it is important, but I don't think that it will happen until the context of it is properly understood.

I may of course have got this completely wrong. I hope not.

Maybe this Avalon/Nexus situation is not important to some. Regardless if it is or it isn't, I declare my personal interest in this process of group forgiveness that we may see work out here that we, or at least the people still interested in this thread, are examining.

I think it is important, and it deserves a serious attempt to understand it and if possible make it work.

Challenge!

John..

Davidallany
6th May 2011, 00:50
I offer no argument.
Forgiveness is a start to focus on the important issues. The self, thinking itself to be true start the liking and aversion from objects perceived as true self . Thinking such thoughts as " They abused me, they mocked me, they robbed me, they praised me, they thanked me, they helped me" the mind doesn't let go and thus is not free from the shanks of thoughts. With shanks one is heavy, in a prison, unable to get free from the after taste of thoughts, like a fire, burning with the fuel of solidification of events, door slam, barking, even breathing can be a label for fuelling thoughts of aversion and liking.Breathing itself is just breathing.
Having seen this, one try to look beyond merely forgiving, and start generating wholesome thoughts consciously, thoughts of harmlessness, wishing everybody to be happy-hearted , yet not falling into views of those thought as being the leading force, a cracked roof in a stormy weather is like a person who is being led by thoughts. like a ship in a storm, rocking, not still and confused.
If we want to be free from delusion, thoughts, notions, we wish all to be happy starting from ourself, family, friends, those who we don't know and ending with those who made us feel pain or gave us a challenging time. Only by doing so, we can truly start to see progress in our inner space.

kinerkid
6th May 2011, 02:38
Forgiveness is firstly and predominantly about forgiving yourself. When you do that and remove/release the negative charge towards some trait, action, event, or attitude you participated in, you then suddenly stop noticing it in others. Then there truly is nothing to forgive. You embrace your whole being, you love yourself unconditionally. What hurt can another say or even do to you when you are in that state of being? Not a damn thing.

Tane Mahuta
6th May 2011, 05:16
I'd like to start a discussion on forgiveness. What enables you to forgive? What perimeters do you place on it? What does forgiveness mean to you?

Hi Kinerkid

Forgiveness is the first step to ascension(becoming a higher being). By knowing this Im able to forgive all those that have wronged or harmed me. I don't place any perimeters on forgiveness.
Forgiveness is unconditional. To me forgiveness means I can let go of all the bad feelings I had, bad feelings I had towards others. I don't let it effect me anymore.

Regards TM:p

davyj0nes
6th May 2011, 20:53
Perhaps it would be helpful to understand a few things:

What is the purpose of the healing choir?

What happened that caused a need for a healing choir?

How does forgiveness factor into the healing choir?

I think with a little bit of information, everyone could be better able to make an informed decision.

TigerLilly
7th May 2011, 00:44
Inelia

I have never spoken to you directly, but having read you post 149 on this thread, as a member of both Avalon and Nexus, I feel I must reply.

Like you I arrived in January, but being new to forums I stepped in gently. This forum and the wonderful people I met here mean a lot to me.

I did not see Atticus as a negative influence, like many I enjoyed the activity/exitement he generated, found his posts generally kind and informative and still believe that he will set up the site as he promise Bill. When the forum split I saw this as being the result of the pressure of the huge increase in numbers.

I wish to reply to your comment below;

I've visited that site two or three times, had a look around and left. It's very dark, and quite honestly, inconsequential.

I have found Nexus a great source of international news, up to the minute information, there are some brilliant researchers/minds . The only thing which is dark is the background which I see as a stylish and modern choice.
There is a wonderful sense of equality and liberty there, all are welcome. Your comments are uninformed and quite wrong. I can only presume that like a few others you made the mistake of only reading the "They cancelled my membership thread". But in the spirit of this thread I forgive you for that and invite you take a better longer look.


I honestly have no attachment to what people say or think about me, it's none of my business.
Very wise Inelia, one of the four agreements by Don Miguel Ruiz.


And, as I have acted as a mirror all my life, it is very, very interesting to read what others write about me, because that shows what they are up to and what they have done. That's why some look at me and see a light being helping out in the planet, and other see a puppet from an ET race trying to corrupt Bill. They are simply seeing themselves. Nothing to do with me.

The idea of us all being mirrors to one another is not new, it is one of the Tibetan 12 Karmic laws, we are all mirrors to one another and to think that this is only true of you seems somewhat egotistic! As Sepia says we are all equal, and in my view all divine, spiritual beings here for the challenges of physical experience.

I do not think that the split and creation of Nexus damaged Avalon at all, it was like an amoeba spliting, new life growing and developing from the original.

However I am seriously concerned by the recent changes on this forum, the sensorship, the new element of fear and repression I feel here now. What is going on? What has happened to the Avalon community I so loved? What have you done to Avalon? Was this your intension when you came to help Bill, claiming to have been sent by a higher power?

Will I be retired/expelled for asking you this? Or is freedom of speech still allowed here?

You have made some very important claims about your abilities and gifts, but ultimately we are all judged by the results of our actions.

If you are truly unconcerned by people's comments then let us naturally respond to your claims, answer the questions about your past and your gifts, and please use your powers to restore, not to destroy, Avalon.

Karen

Agape
7th May 2011, 01:04
Perhaps it would be helpful to understand a few things:

What is the purpose of the healing choir?

What happened that caused a need for a healing choir?

How does forgiveness factor into the healing choir?

I think with a little bit of information, everyone could be better able to make an informed decision.

Fortunately , healing choir always existed...since times immemorial ...

sometimes, above our heads and other times, in our hearts ..within and without


It's not a place it's a vibration . It is not associated with any special place or people ..

healing choir is the heaven in you because heaven is the place where all are equal and respect each other more than ones own self ..

where each is praised for their share of beauty..

where none stands in the middle but all stand in circle and hold hands ..

where none comes to look down upon you or I

where none's afraid to ask and answer ..

where trust and love is the indespensible rule


That all and much more , believe me, it's always existed ..

above and beyond all the petty concerns.


Now if you question what is the purpose of good intent, is that a 'good question' .





Now if you hear the dark voices of fear and control, now what will you do ?


They are not real. Oh Son of Good Family , realize they are but projections of your own mind . ( Bardo Thodol )



Who are not afraid to die theirs is the life immortal



:angel:

Linden
7th May 2011, 01:24
I really love the saying about forgiveness which goes - "To not forgive someone is like drinking poison and expecting the other person to die."

Or something like that :)

I love that analogy....We do only hurt ourselves when we don't forgive. Not forgiving only gives a perpetrator permanent control over our own life.

NancyV
7th May 2011, 01:48
Inelia: I've visited that site two or three times, had a look around and left. It's very dark, and quite honestly, inconsequential.
I have found Nexus a great source of international news, up to the minute information, there are some brilliant researchers/minds . The only thing which is dark is the background which I see as a stylish and modern choice. There is a wonderful sense of equality and liberty there, all are welcome. Your comments are unimformed and quite wrong. I can only presume that like a few others you made the mistake of only reading the "They cancelled my membership thread". But in the spirit of this thread I forgive you for that and invite you take a better longer look.
I have never talked with Inelia about Nexus but I had a similar reaction to the energy there. The "They cancelled my membership thread" is not the only thread that almost makes me physically ill. There are several threads where the personal attacks and backbiting go on. Perhaps you haven't read them. I have. I guess that makes my comments "uninformed and quite wrong." Or maybe that's just my opinion of the energy I feel there?




Inelia: And, as I have acted as a mirror all my life, it is very, very interesting to read what others write about me, because that shows what they are up to and what they have done. That's why some look at me and see a light being helping out in the planet, and other see a puppet from an ET race trying to corrupt Bill. They are simply seeing themselves. Nothing to do with me.
The idea of us all being mirrors to one another is not new, it is one of the Tibetan 12 Karmic laws, we are all mirrors to one another and to think that this is only true of you seems somewhat egotistic! As Sepia says we are all equal, and in my view all divine, spiritual beings here for the challenges of physical experience.
Please show me where Inelia has said that she is the only one who acts as a mirror? I missed where she made that claim.

davyj0nes
7th May 2011, 01:49
Fortunately , healing choir always existed...since times immemorial ...
sometimes, above our heads and other times, in our hearts ..within and without
It's not a place it's a vibration . It is not associated with any special place or people ..
healing choir is the heaven in you because heaven is the place where all are equal and respect each other more than ones own self ..
where each is praised for their share of beauty..
where none stands in the middle but all stand in circle and hold hands ..
where none comes to look down upon you or I
where none's afraid to ask and answer ..
where trust and love is the indispensable rule
That all and much more , believe me, it's always existed ..
above and beyond all the petty concerns.
Now if you question what is the purpose of good intent, is that a 'good question' .
Now if you hear the dark voices of fear and control, now what will you do ?


it seems then, the healing choir isn't really about anything. this to me feels like a esoteric, poetic dodge where the faux enlightened will nod and agree, but they themselves don't understand it.
If the choir is truly of good intent then those who support it should speak plainly;
what is its purpose, what sparked this need for a healing choir, and where does forgiveness come into play?

kinerkid
7th May 2011, 02:20
And, as I have acted as a mirror all my life, it is very, very interesting to read what others write about me, because that shows what they are up to and what they have done. That's why some look at me and see a light being helping out in the planet, and other see a puppet from an ET race trying to corrupt Bill. They are simply seeing themselves..


I have never talked with Inelia about Nexus but I had a similar reaction to the energy there. The "They cancelled my membership thread" is not the only thread that almost makes me physically ill. There are several threads where the personal attacks and backbiting go on. Perhaps you haven't read them. I have. I guess that makes my comments "uninformed and quite wrong." Or maybe that's just my opinion of the energy I feel there?

If we're all mirrors, perhaps what you see in Nexus is being mirrored back to you as well? Stands to reason.... :P

[ Mod-edit: I performed "radical nested quote surgery" on the above, to more accurately reflect what I understood were the earlier posts to which this post was responding. Hopefully I got it right. - Paul. ]

NancyV
7th May 2011, 02:56
If we're all mirrors, perhaps what you see in Nexus is being mirrored back to you as well? Stands to reason.... :P

You would be absolutely correct, kinerkid, IF I had said I believe in the mirror theory. :p
Nancy :hug:

edina
7th May 2011, 03:02
LeoNorth, I like the questions you ask.

I've given an answer to what it meant to me here in this post. (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?19680-Forgiveness&p=211888#post211888) There is more, with me there is always more, I have a friend who says I chew a bone to the marrow... I am always in contemplation, can't seem to stop me, just seemed wired this way...

For me the Healing Choir (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?19661-Healing-Choir) was about more than forgiveness, forgiveness being a part of healing, and for many people forgiveness being a first step in healing as a whole.

I cannot speak for everyone involved, I have a story that leads into the events of my involvement.

There is this underlying pattern happening all around us, globally, of divide and conquer, the balance to this is unify and share. I have said many times in many places, that I believe the events unfolding around us are larger than Avalon, Nexus, Atticus, Bill, Kerry, Obama, Osama....my Aunt Bitsy, or a stranger in Oz.

I keep trying to find a way to address these issues at the spiritual, more subtle levels. The Healing Choir (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?19661-Healing-Choir) did this.

It was an outward expression of events that happened inwardly when people/persons/beings examined their own hearts, and decided to take responsibility for themselves.

To clear the past out of the present so the emerging present we call the future will be more whole.

Also, as the energies coming into the planet increase our vibrational frequencies, all the unresolved issues, our projections and shadow selves get forced up to the top, to our conscousness. For millenium, humanity has been suppressing these issues, sweeping them under the carpet so to speak. The mindset of out of sight, out of mind.

I felt that the thought/feelings expressed in the Healing Choir (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?19661-Healing-Choir) held a key to how we can help each other deal with this, it is not going to go away. And some people will literally go out of their minds as the intensity of these energies increase. We are seeing this everywhere.

I am convinced that when people gather together and sing of healing in a unified way, the way the people did in the Healing Choir (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?19661-Healing-Choir) we literally change the way our future emerges, we help to release the pent up energy that the PTW, and ourselves have been suppressing for centuries. This is a lot of suppressed energy, I would rather it be released by healing, than by war.

People do not always have to be interacting with each other all the time, and be in perfect agreement to share their hearts and their wisdom. I did not have an opportunity to read anyone else's posts except the initial poem and Celine's post, until the thread was posted. I was personally moved by the wisdom shared by the other posters.

I keep thinking about what they said, and in some ways, I continue to have this idea pop up about how many the their thoughts point to a blueprint for humanity's future.

The Healing Choir (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?19661-Healing-Choir) thread was posted on four Forums, it could be posted anywhere, it is universal, and global in its energetic reach.

I want to give your questions justice, so I would like to think them through, I'm tired tonight, long day, and will get back to you on this tomorrow, or Mother's Day.

But, to the best of my knowledge, the controversy about the Healing Choir (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?19661-Healing-Choir) is not so much our intent as we understand it, as that some people feel it is disingenuine, that they do not trust our intent, or that in order for the Healing Choir (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?19661-Healing-Choir) to reopen, Nexus must take down comments that Avalon finds slanderous, ect... of Bill, Inelia, and Avalon.

Frankly, as far as I'm concerned, the healing effect of the Healing Choir (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?19661-Healing-Choir) stands, regardless of whether the Healing Choir (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?19661-Healing-Choir)thread opens, or not, but I think some people would like to continue the line of thought/feeling offered there, which may be one reason why people continue to ask that it be reopened.

TigerLilly
7th May 2011, 07:42
Hello Nancy V





Inelia: I've visited that site two or three times, had a look around and left. It's very dark, and quite honestly, inconsequential.
I have found Nexus a great source of international news, up to the minute information, there are some brilliant researchers/minds . The only thing which is dark is the background which I see as a stylish and modern choice. There is a wonderful sense of equality and liberty there, all are welcome. Your comments are uninformed and quite wrong. I can only presume that like a few others you made the mistake of only reading the "They cancelled my membership thread". But in the spirit of this thread I forgive you for that and invite you take a better longer look.
I have never talked with Inelia about Nexus but I had a similar reaction to the energy there. The "They cancelled my membership thread" is not the only thread that almost makes me physically ill. There are several threads where the personal attacks and backbiting go on. Perhaps you haven't read them. I have. I guess that makes my comments "uninformed and quite wrong." Or maybe that's just my opinion of the energy I feel there?

Maybe it is now Nexus which is acting as the mirror? I see Nexus as a very important forum supporting truth and freedom of speech. Posts which are removed from this forum are imediately reposted there and banned members retain a public voice rather than just disappearing as used to be the case. Hurt and disillusionment are brought out into the open and delt with, which I see as postive and healing. The debates are challenging and I have been impressed by the mutual respect between members.





Inelia: And, as I have acted as a mirror all my life, it is very, very interesting to read what others write about me, because that shows what they are up to and what they have done. That's why some look at me and see a light being helping out in the planet, and other see a puppet from an ET race trying to corrupt Bill. They are simply seeing themselves. Nothing to do with me.
The idea of us all being mirrors to one another is not new, it is one of the Tibetan 12 Karmic laws, we are all mirrors to one another and to think that this is only true of you seems somewhat egotistic! As Sepia says we are all equal, and in my view all divine, spiritual beings here for the challenges of physical experience.
Please show me where Inelia has said that she is the only one who acts as a mirror? I missed where she made that claim.

Both Bill and Inelia have referred to how she acts as a mirror, the implication being clearly that this is something unusual about her (if not then why keep mentioning it?). It seems to me to be a very clever way of implying that anyone who does not see her as a light being is evil themselves.
The original Tibetan teaching is that the things which irritate us in others are often the things which we need to deal with in ourselves, and this applies to us all equally.

I hope this helps claify my point Nancy V.

toothpick
7th May 2011, 10:24
Wow, what a fantastic thread, Great work everyone.
I forgive you, unconditionally.
Please forgive me for all my transgressions.
I,m sure that will be to simplistic for some, thats ok.
No fuss, no mess, no stress.
Move on.
Not literally, I am enjoying this thread too much.

toothpick

crownme
7th May 2011, 11:42
a while ago i thought alot on this subject and made this song for myself on guitar. and all i hear is :)
Forgive & Let Go

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yGfVeNd0Fgk

Snowbird
7th May 2011, 11:48
I use this affirmation several times a week. I think that the last line particularly applies to this thread.

I deeply and truly love and approve of myself.
I trust in love.
I open my heart to love.
I follow the path of the heart.
I forgive those who need forgiving for not being what I wanted them to be.

Lord Sidious
7th May 2011, 11:58
a while ago i thought alot on this subject and made this song for myself on guitar. and all i hear is :)
Forgive & Let Go

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yGfVeNd0Fgk

Let's see if that flushed em out.

Someone fixed it while I was looking at the code. :rolleyes:

davyj0nes
7th May 2011, 19:23
but, to the best of my knowledge, the controversy about the Healing Choir is not so much our intent as we understand it, as that some people feel it is disingenuous, that they do not trust our intent, or that in order for the Healing Choir to reopen, Nexus must take down comments that Avalon finds slanderous, ect... of Bill, Inelia, and Avalon.

Frankly, as far as I'm concerned, the healing effect of the Healing Choir stands, regardless of whether the Healing Choir thread opens, or not, but I think some people would like to continue the line of thought/feeling offered there, which may be one reason why people continue to ask that it be reopened.

I think that is a reasonable request by avalon to reopen the healing choir thread. If the intent of those behind the healing choir is right, there should be no problem taking down the offending comments. A personal, ie not corporate or group, apology should also be offered to Bill, Inelia, and to others who felt offended.

I question the effect of the healing choir, since the first thread on avalon it has caused much friction. the patient cries out in pain, perhaps the medicine administered is not up to the task of healing? or perhaps a poison was administered instead?

ThresholdRising
7th May 2011, 19:28
if you get angry at someone or feel hate towards them, the 50 to 70 trillion cells that make up you suffer as a result.
By forgiving others you help this community of cells that is you in the process.

Mike
7th May 2011, 20:24
in the spirit of forgiveness (and sarcasm) i'd like to announce that i forgive all members who very dramatically wonder aloud if their "controversial" post will be cause for their banishment. (note: but my patience is running very thin)

p.s. gee, i really hope i don't get banned for this post!

NancyV
7th May 2011, 21:35
Hello Nancy V




Inelia: I've visited that site two or three times, had a look around and left. It's very dark, and quite honestly, inconsequential.
I have found Nexus a great source of international news, up to the minute information, there are some brilliant researchers/minds . The only thing which is dark is the background which I see as a stylish and modern choice. There is a wonderful sense of equality and liberty there, all are welcome. Your comments are uninformed and quite wrong. I can only presume that like a few others you made the mistake of only reading the "They cancelled my membership thread". But in the spirit of this thread I forgive you for that and invite you take a better longer look.
I have never talked with Inelia about Nexus but I had a similar reaction to the energy there. The "They cancelled my membership thread" is not the only thread that almost makes me physically ill. There are several threads where the personal attacks and backbiting go on. Perhaps you haven't read them. I have. I guess that makes my comments "uninformed and quite wrong." Or maybe that's just my opinion of the energy I feel there?

Maybe it is now Nexus which is acting as the mirror? I see Nexus as a very important forum supporting truth and freedom of speech. Posts which are removed from this forum are imediately reposted there and banned members retain a public voice rather than just disappearing as used to be the case. Hurt and disillusionment are brought out into the open and delt with, which I see as postive and healing. The debates are challenging and I have been impressed by the mutual respect between members.
This just goes to show how individual we each are in our perceptions. There is no reason for me to try to get you to see why a lot of the comments on NEXUS are, in my opinion, tasteless, whiny, nasty, disgusting, backbiting and deliberately slanderous against Bill, Inelia, several others who are named AND those who choose to stay at Avalon and are characterized as sheep, ignorant, blind followers of Bill, etc. I see what I see and you see what you see. We don't have to see the same thing. You are right from your point of view and I am right from my point of view.

You mentioned in a previous post in answer to Inelia: "I can only presume that like a few others you made the mistake of only reading the "They cancelled my membership thread". But in the spirit of this thread I forgive you for that and invite you take a better longer look." This is a rather disingenuous statement as yesterday you personally started a thread with the title "The Celebrity Carnival and New Age Messiahs". In that first post you quote someone else's statement which relates Bill and Inelia to a carnival. That was your choice to quote that post. Another post you quoted in your first post is obviously putting Avalon into a bad light. I can only assume you did it deliberately to continue to fuel the flames of discontent. So not only was the "They cancelled my membership thread" not the only thread with attacks against Bill, Inelia and Avalon when you posted the quoted comment above, but you have since made sure there is another thread where Bill, Inelia and Avalon are mentioned in relation to "The Celebrity Carnival and New Age Messiahs".

No amount of good information on NEXUS will erase the negative energy that remains (and continues with your personal participation) from the admittedly smaller number of negative posts compared to the interesting and positive posts. The fact that this is condoned in the name of free speech is actually laughable to me. I don't happen to believe in TOTAL free speech, you apparently do. Actually it's more like I don't believe it is productive to allow slander and demeaning words against others. I can't think of many subjects that should not be allowed, just the WAY people discuss them should be moderated. If people in a forum on the Internet cannot control their own destructively negative words then I'm a firm believer in moderating such posts in order to keep the tone of the forum on a more positive energy level. That's another reason I would never join NEXUS. Those who are naturally destructive are supposedly going to be allowed to run amok with a free reign to continue bashing anything or anyone they choose to put their attention on. I don't stay on forums like that.

Let's also be real about the supposed free speech on NEXUS. I can't go in there and say "F***K YOU!" to someone who pisses me off, and I might be tempted to join just to say that. So there is NOT free speech there.






Inelia: And, as I have acted as a mirror all my life, it is very, very interesting to read what others write about me, because that shows what they are up to and what they have done. That's why some look at me and see a light being helping out in the planet, and other see a puppet from an ET race trying to corrupt Bill. They are simply seeing themselves. Nothing to do with me.
The idea of us all being mirrors to one another is not new, it is one of the Tibetan 12 Karmic laws, we are all mirrors to one another and to think that this is only true of you seems somewhat egotistic! As Sepia says we are all equal, and in my view all divine, spiritual beings here for the challenges of physical experience.
Please show me where Inelia has said that she is the only one who acts as a mirror? I missed where she made that claim.

Both Bill and Inelia have referred to how she acts as a mirror, the implication being clearly that this is something unusual about her (if not then why keep mentioning it?). It seems to me to be a very clever way of implying that anyone who does not see her as a light being is evil themselves. The original Tibetan teaching is that the things which irritate us in others are often the things which we need to deal with in ourselves, and this applies to us all equally.
I hope this helps claify my point Nancy V.
This clarifies to me that you have interpreted a simple statement Inelia and Bill have both said... that Inelia acts as a mirror... as being something exclusive to her. It was never stated that she believes it is unusual or that others, maybe all others, also act as mirrors for everyone else. In fact she would be stupid and ignorant if she said that and she is most definitely not stupid or ignorant. I also do not see that statement as a clever way of implying anything insidious couched in the deep, dark recesses of her words. If you see it that way then that is your choice and your interpretation. In fact I have heard Inelia say that what she does is not special, that anyone can do it, that we all have innate powers.

If we don't like someone we will find many ways of trying to see negative meanings in their words. We will ascribe evil implications to their simple words. We will look only for words we can twist into different meanings. It's human nature to do so. I am definitely not immune to this and it's a huge job to be neutral and detached. It's difficult to truly understand what a person really means in even the best of circumstances. Blindly following someone whom you choose to believe their words is just about as ignorant as dismissing everything they say or finding nefarious implications in their words as often as possible.

Detachment and objectivity are much harder to attain and most often way too much work to indulge in. I love a good fight as much as the next person, in fact I had great fun criticizing Charles when he was here. I tried to do it in a factual manner and not in a vitriolic and ad hominem attack style on his character. If Avalon was a free-for-all free speech zone I might have been a lot nastier, but I do attempt to follow forum guidelines. If the peace/love types over on NEXUS are fine with the nasty backbiting style of some of the members, then that tells me some very interesting things about them.

Forums that want to cater to a large variety of personality types and soul types must find a happy medium which is not too strict but also does not allow rampant ad hominem attacks to continue. If they don't do so they will lose a large number of members eventually. If NEXUS continues to allow such personal attacks I would suspect they will never be a large forum with a diverse membership. They will most likely remain the forum where members hold on to a grudge all based on being loyal to Richard and Celine and several Moderators who were the root cause of the initial problems. If the energy doesn't dramatically change over there I think a more suitable name for the NEXUS forum might be SOUR GRAPES.

Donna O
7th May 2011, 22:04
Oh Nancy, I applaud your eloquence and insight with your post above. You have nailed it all on the head imho.

I might add that free speech didn’t extend to someone ‘dissing’ Celine, Richard's wife, the perpetrator was not only sworn at and violently threatened but was vanished from the forum with out a trace….double standards? Hypocrisy? I think so.

Also I would like to see the increasing unsolicited practice of promoting another forum as being superior to this one be stopped……spam anybody? ;)




Detachment and objectivity are much harder to attain and most often way too much work to indulge in. I love a good fight as much as the next person, in fact I had great fun criticizing Charles when he was here. I tried to do it in a factual manner and not in a vitriolic and ad hominem attack style on his character. If Avalon was a free-for-all free speech zone I might have been a lot nastier, but I do attempt to follow forum guidelines. If the peace/love types over on NEXUS are fine with the nasty backbiting style of some of the members, then that tells me some very interesting things about them.

Forums that want to cater to a large variety of personality types and soul types must find a happy medium which is not too strict but also does not allow rampant ad hominem attacks to continue. If they don't do so they will lose a large number of members eventually. If NEXUS continues to allow such personal attacks I would suspect they will never be a large forum with a diverse membership. They will most likely remain the forum where members hold on to a grudge all based on being loyal to Richard and Celine and several Moderators who were the root cause of the initial problems. If the energy doesn't dramatically change over there I think a more suitable name for the NEXUS forum might be SOUR GRAPES.

Paul
7th May 2011, 22:34
Oh Nancy, I applaud your eloquence and insight with your post above. You have nailed it all on the head imho.
Agreed .

Seikou-Kishi
7th May 2011, 22:34
I've never been to this Nexus, but it strikes me that if it and Project Avalon are aiming towards the same thing, there should be a spirit of collegiality between them. If one party proves to be ruinous, the remaining party shouldn't get drawn into a fight about it because then there's nobody left, rather, the remaining party should dust itself off and walk alone.

Donna O
7th May 2011, 22:43
You are right of course, and I think things were dying down but then someone stepped in to stir the pot again. I think we should at least stick up for ourselves here, on our own forum, even if we agree not to take notice of anything written anywhere else.... unless people try to use it as evidence that this forum is censored and the membership is brainwashed. Why should we put up with this. Turning the other cheek will work when people stop coming here with the sole intention of fanning the flames.


I've never been to this Nexus, but it strikes me that if it and Project Avalon are aiming towards the same thing, there should be a spirit of collegiality between them. If one party proves to be ruinous, the remaining party shouldn't get drawn into a fight about it because then there's nobody left, rather, the remaining party should dust itself off and walk alone.

Mike
7th May 2011, 23:39
take a quick trip over there Seikou-Kishi and have a look around. developing a spirit of collegiality is...uh....unlikely.;)

i don't necessarily feel the 2 sides have to come together. at this point, simply staying out of each others way would be a victory. those that want to participate in both forums should do so, so long as they respectfully refrain from -as leelah said - any unsolicited practice of promoting 1 forum as superior to the other (i can already hear the chorus of dissent/beating drum of the so called "free speech" tribe as i'm writing this: "what, so you're saying we can't talk about Nexus here??? ITS CENSORSHIP I TELL YOU!!! CENSORSHIP!!!")

i think we do have a few dual members who are enjoying the collective pat on the back from their Nexus friends a little too much and are spending the majority of their time over here trying to play hero. i cannot understand it as there is nothing to gain from it but friction. decisions that have been made are final, for better or worse. no one is getting voted back on - this isn't 'Survivor'.

far from an intrusion, people getting kicked off, quitting, getting suspended etc is a natural response to a forum dynamic. it doesn't matter which system of bureaucracy or lack thereof that is being employed, the same issues will surface again and again. with Avalon and Nexus you just have 2 completely different value systems. WE DON'T HAVE TO LIKE EACH OTHER. the important thing is that we both continue to fight the common enemy - the distorters and suppressors of truth.