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Bill Ryan
9th May 2011, 14:41
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**admin-edit** - I have created this new thread to allow discussion to continue without disrupting the original thread (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?20094-Membership-on-the-forum) started by Seikou-Kishi.

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I love walking in the forest,
I've never seen any "moderators" in nature ;)

Depends which forest!

In the famous and unique Masai Mara (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maasai_Mara) in Kenya, the entry fee is $70 per person plus more for the vehicle. I've been there many times, and the cost is worth every penny.

There are some places where you can watch the hippos and crocs at extremely close hand - and there's a game ranger standing by (discreetly) with a very large gun. :)

In the California Park Service, in equally unique, delicate, and staggeringly beautiful habitats like Yosemite (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yosemite_National_Park) and Tuolumne (http://www.pbase.com/olybob/mono_lake_and_tuolumne_meadows), permits are required to limit the numbers of hikers so that the human impact is controlled. I'm delighted they do this.

For those of you in Australia, ask the Aboriginal Elders what damage the white men create when they permit themselves to do whatever they wish.

Planet Earth has been trashed by humans doing what they want and taking what they want without any regard for others.

This forum should be a reflection of the human race at its finest: not a reflection of the human race at its worst.


http://projectavalon.net/tuolumne_meadows.jpg

Lord Sidious
9th May 2011, 14:52
Depends which forest!

...
For those of you in Australia, ask the Aboriginal Elders what damage the white men create when they permit themselves to do whatever they wish.

Planet Earth has been trashed by humans doing what they want and taking what they want without any regard for others.

This forum should be a reflection of the human race at its finest: not a reflection of the human race at its worst.


Thanks for reinforcing racist stereotypes about Australia Bill.
You should know better.
In fact, I would like you to apologise, thanks.

Bill Ryan
9th May 2011, 15:00
Thanks for reinforcing racist stereotypes about Australia Bill.
You should know better.

This is a true story. It's nothing to do with racist stereotypes. It's what actually happened.

If you accuse me of racist stereotyping, I really will stop being patient.

http://www.iofilm.co.uk/feats/interviews/r/rabbit_proof_fence_2002.shtml


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rB-jkydqADg

Lord Sidious
9th May 2011, 15:04
This is a true story. It's nothing to do with racist stereotypes. It's what actually happened.

If you accuse me of racist stereotyping, I really will stop being patient.


EXCUSE ME!
You did not say history.
Don't justify your statement.
Apology please.
You have made many statements on other people slandering you, inelia and others, you just slandered my entire family.
Apolgy please and no thanks for your threats.
Be a man Bill, you are wrong, admit it.

Bill Ryan
9th May 2011, 15:19
EXCUSE ME!
You did not say history.
Don't justify your statement.
Apology please.
You have made many statements on other people slandering you, inelia and others, you just slandered my entire family.
Apolgy please and no thanks for your threats.
Be a man Bill, you are wrong, admit it.

I wrote:


ask the Aboriginal Elders what damage the white men create when they permit themselves to do whatever they wish.This is a true and accurate statement. It applies in all cultures with respect to all indigenous people.

I was not talking about you or your family. I assume they do not do whatever they wish at the expense of others. This is the point of the thread. Back to topic, please.

Some Bloke
9th May 2011, 15:21
LS, I dont think Bill is being racist, its just an example, there aren't too many places where industrialised modern man lives alongside a people who have turned their backs on all the destructive crap the rest of us can't live without
Also English may be one language, but it is used very differently by different peoples , take 'bible basher' for example, it means the opposite to the Americans to that which it does to a Briton , this also happens with turns of phrases

(this would have been post number 3 if I wasn't a one finger typist)

Lord Sidious
9th May 2011, 15:24
I wrote:


ask the Aboriginal Elders what damage the white men create when they permit themselves to do whatever they wish.This is a true and accurate statement. It applies in all cultures with respect to all indigenous people.

I was not talking about you or your family. I assume they do not do whatever they wish at the expense of others. This is the point of the thread. Back to topic, please.

Stand behind what you wrote, don't try to evade it, that is the same standard you are holding others to.
You said one thing, now you are saying something else.
You mentioned Kenya, America and Australia in that post, yet only the whites here get singled out.
Apology please and we can move on.
Some white man have done things as you say, most have not.
If I posted something derogatory about blacks, asians or others, would my post be deleted?
Yes or no?
If yes, why does that not apply to you?
And don't insult my intelligence by saying it is your forum, I already know that.


LS, I dont think Bill is being racist, its just an example, there aren't too many places where industrialised modern man lives alongside a people who have turned their backs on all the destructive crap the rest of us can't live without
Also English may be one language, but it is used very differently by different peoples , take 'bible basher' for example, it means the opposite to the Americans to that which it does to a Briton , this also happens with turns of phrazes

I appreciate your intent and I know what you are trying to do.
I salute you for that.
But this is a matter of principle, Bill started a thread called integrity, now is his chance to prove he can use his.
If he apologises, I will rep his post and move on.

The One
9th May 2011, 15:35
Variety's the very spice of life, That gives it all its flavor.It's time to move on to the next step . We've reached a certain point, but we're not moving any more.

Bob_2011
9th May 2011, 15:40
I think this is a good time for me to move on, DONT YOU THINK BILL, please remove me from this site,

g.k.r
9th May 2011, 15:42
This is a true story. It's nothing to do with racist stereotypes. It's what actually happened.

If you accuse me of racist stereotyping, I really will stop being patient.


EXCUSE ME!
You did not say history.
Don't justify your statement.
Apology please.
You have made many statements on other people slandering you, inelia and others, you just slandered my entire family.
Apolgy please and no thanks for your threats.
Be a man Bill, you are wrong, admit it.

think you are taking this right out of context, imo

butcherman
9th May 2011, 15:45
sid this appears to be the epitome of nuggetry

Lord Sidious
9th May 2011, 15:46
I think this is a good time for me to move on, DONT YOU THINK BILL, please remove me from this site,

Don't go because of my disagreement with Bill, please.
Stay and participate.
Everyone makes mistakes, me, you, Bill, all of us.







This is a true story. It's nothing to do with racist stereotypes. It's what actually happened.

If you accuse me of racist stereotyping, I really will stop being patient.


EXCUSE ME!
You did not say history.
Don't justify your statement.
Apology please.
You have made many statements on other people slandering you, inelia and others, you just slandered my entire family.
Apolgy please and no thanks for your threats.
Be a man Bill, you are wrong, admit it.

think you are taking this right out of context, imo

I appreciate your intent, but a statement that is straight out is taken to mean exactly that.
I have done this before. I posted something that was different to what I meant and had to apologise.


sid this appears to be the epitome of nuggetry

I think you mean I am the nugget, but that is ok, we are all entitled to have an opinion.
I am not offended.
I feel I am right, Bill feels he is right.
Who is right? That is open to interpretation.

linz2d
9th May 2011, 15:48
The problem with any written media is how it is interpreted and the variety in meaning which may come out from a single line, I perfectly agree that western culture(rather the western way of thinking) has ravaged mother earth.

Anyway arguments will always occur, when that happens stand back for a moment and breath.

g.k.r
9th May 2011, 15:54
I think this is a good time for me to move on, DONT YOU THINK BILL, please remove me from this site,

Don't go because of my disagreement with Bill, please.
Stay and participate.
Everyone makes mistakes, me, you, Bill, all of us.







This is a true story. It's nothing to do with racist stereotypes. It's what actually happened.

If you accuse me of racist stereotyping, I really will stop being patient.


EXCUSE ME!
You did not say history.
Don't justify your statement.
Apology please.
You have made many statements on other people slandering you, inelia and others, you just slandered my entire family.
Apolgy please and no thanks for your threats.
Be a man Bill, you are wrong, admit it.

think you are taking this right out of context, imo

I appreciate your intent, but a statement that is straight out is taken to mean exactly that.
I have done this before. I posted something that was different to what I meant and had to apologise.


sid this appears to be the epitome of nuggetry

I think you mean I am the nugget, but that is ok, we are all entitled to have an opinion.
I am not offended.
I feel I am right, Bill feels he is right.
Who is right? That is open to interpretation.

maybe you also should use some integrity too and see things for how they are meant, not everything is so plain, you do have to rationalise things too, whatever is said

¤=[Post Update]=¤

i feel sometimes theres a bit of immaturity going on, we not schoolkids,

p,s not trying to confront you either, just think you can go around things differently too,,

SKIBADABOMSKI
9th May 2011, 15:57
http://i52.tinypic.com/2vjv70m.jpg

Lord Sidious
9th May 2011, 15:59
maybe you also should use some integrity too and see things for how they are meant, not everything is so plain, you do have to rationalise things too, whatever is said

¤=[Post Update]=¤

i feel sometimes theres a bit of immaturity going on, we not schoolkids,

Let me say this.
I believe Bill.
What he wrote, is not necessarily what he meant, that is the problem.
We need to choose our words carefully, that is what law is all about.
All I am asking for is for him to admit he wrote different to what he meant, apologise and we all move on.
If I changed his statement to something less politically correct, I could and probably would get banned.
Why is it ok to bash whites in Australia, but not anyone else?
What have we done to deserve that?

Seikou-Kishi
9th May 2011, 16:00
Depends which forest!

...
For those of you in Australia, ask the Aboriginal Elders what damage the white men create when they permit themselves to do whatever they wish.

Planet Earth has been trashed by humans doing what they want and taking what they want without any regard for others.

This forum should be a reflection of the human race at its finest: not a reflection of the human race at its worst.


Thanks for reinforcing racist stereotypes about Australia Bill.
You should know better.
In fact, I would like you to apologise, thanks.

It's not reinforcing racist stereotypes, it's a description of what is happening.

g.k.r
9th May 2011, 16:05
maybe you also should use some integrity too and see things for how they are meant, not everything is so plain, you do have to rationalise things too, whatever is said

¤=[Post Update]=¤

i feel sometimes theres a bit of immaturity going on, we not schoolkids,

Let me say this.
I believe Bill.
What he wrote, is not necessarily what he meant, that is the problem.
We need to choose our words carefully, that is what law is all about.
All I am asking for is for him to admit he wrote different to what he meant, apologise and we all move on.
If I changed his statement to something less politically correct, I could and probably would get banned.
Why is it ok to bash whites in Australia, but not anyone else?
What have we done to deserve that?

lol the white people,(which i am one) have a lot to be blamed for over the centuries, like when they killed 12 million indiginous(cant spell, admittidly,) people in america between 1498 and 1504 for 1 example, so yeah in our history we have a lot of bad things, everywhere, not just australia, tho it wasnt me or you, looks like we will be blamed for the new world order too in future most likely. thoits none of us,, if you understand my point, lot of bad things have happened and still happening around the world, the best thing would be to try and stop theses things happening and acknowledge them too, maybe i dont know what im talking about, but thats my opinion

if you watch a vid called kymatica, it will tell you some of what i mentioned

Lord Sidious
9th May 2011, 16:06
Thanks for reinforcing racist stereotypes about Australia Bill.
You should know better.
In fact, I would like you to apologise, thanks.

It's not reinforcing racist stereotypes, it's a description of what is happening.

I told you off for feeling guilty because you are a jew and other jews are doing things to the palestinians.
I apologise if that post came across harsher than I meant, but I don't want you to feel guilty for something you didn't do.
Why should I feel guilty for the actions of other whites here that I have not done?
I thought we were all people? Not white, not jews, not blacks, none of that.
THAT is why I am doing this.
Think people, do you see me making trouble on this forum?
If the answer is no, then ask yourself what am I trying to do?
I am NOT trying to humiliate Bill, that isn't something I would do.

Seikou-Kishi
9th May 2011, 16:10
I told you off for feeling guilty because you are a jew and other jews are doing things to the palestinians.
I apologise if that post came across harsher than I meant, but I don't want you to feel guilty for something you didn't do.
Why should I feel guilty for the actions of other whites here that I have not done?
I thought we were all people? Not white, not jews, not blacks, none of that.
THAT is why I am doing this.
Think people, do you see me making trouble on this forum?
If the answer is no, then ask yourself what am I trying to do?
I am NOT trying to humiliate Bill, that isn't something I would do.

No I think you were right there. I was grateful to read your post. I think though that the basic equation is Australia before colonisation = ecologically sound; Australia after colonisation = ecologically unsound. It's not because white people are white, it's simply the way it is.

Lord Sidious
9th May 2011, 16:14
No I think you were right there. I was grateful to read your post. I think though that the basic equation is Australia before colonisation = ecologically sound; Australia after colonisation = ecologically unsound. It's not because white people are white, it's simply the way it is.

I would suggest that if you believe that, you need to read more.
And, I would bet that Bill needs to know more about things before he uses a movie as evidence of abuse.
I am not going to talk about the aborigines and their plight, that is a very complicated subject.
One that a lot of you are not qualified to talk about, because you only read of it, you have no experience of it.
I have.

prometheus
9th May 2011, 16:16
Hi Lord Sidious,

I really don't understand why are you so offended by Bill's post. I'm from Spain and I'm ashamed of the demage that my fellow contrymen did in South America and Central America long time ago.... One can not deny or refuse that "That" happened.

With all my respect for you,
P.

Seikou-Kishi
9th May 2011, 16:17
I certainly need to read more if it's the case that Australian aborigines were ecologically unsound

janus
9th May 2011, 16:28
I told you off for feeling guilty because you are a jew and other jews are doing things to the palestinians.
I apologise if that post came across harsher than I meant, but I don't want you to feel guilty for something you didn't do.
Why should I feel guilty for the actions of other whites here that I have not done?
I thought we were all people? Not white, not jews, not blacks, none of that.
THAT is why I am doing this.
Think people, do you see me making trouble on this forum?
If the answer is no, then ask yourself what am I trying to do?
I am NOT trying to humiliate Bill, that isn't something I would do.

Point taken, LS. We all make generalizations about groups of people without thinking it through because it's so easy to do...part of the programming imo. As difficult as it may be, it's time to move past the generalizations and the programming to more thought-out and thought-full dialogue.

Of course, I could be totally misunderstanding the point, in which case would you please enlighten me, LS?

EsmaEverheart
9th May 2011, 16:28
Lord Sidious, do you want Fries with those nuggets? j/k

ace
9th May 2011, 16:31
Sid I rely do expect a bashing with a bunch of your famous organic carrots for even daring to suggest this nugget!!

We had a little chat in the chat room yesterday, which I enjoyed by the way.
During our chat I asked you the situation with the radio station, as I was unaware
in which direction the proposed project was heading.

I felt your disappointment, truly. You told me It was Dead in the Water.

My question to you is, Has your response to Bill's post in this thread been triggered or tainted by you feeling ignored with regards the radio show.

I am a white man, I also know The White Man have caused untold atrocities all over this planet.

My granddad told me, To be angered at criticisms is to acknowledge they are to be deserved.

Ace runs for cover from flying carrots...

Lord Sidious
9th May 2011, 16:45
Hi Lord Sidious,

I really don't understand why are you so offended by Bill's post. I'm from Spain and I'm ashamed of the demage that my fellow contrymen did in South America and Central America long time ago.... One can not deny or refuse that "That" happened.

With all my respect for you,
P.

Rigtht, so you feel guilty for something you didn't do too?
Mmmmm.
No more kool aid for you.
Why?
Why are you guilty?
Since when is guilt by association valid?
THIS IS PART OF MY POINT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Thank you for helping me.
Do you guys start to see now what I am doing?


I certainly need to read more if it's the case that Australian aborigines were ecologically unsound

I can tell you that they used fire to herd animals into ambushes as a hunting tactic.
They still do it today.
The ENTIRE centre of the continent was rainforest, much like queensland was.
It isn't now.
You guys do the mathmatics and tell me what that means.
Does that mean that I should go bash the modern aborigines because of it?
If you guys say no, then why should I NOT put Bill on the spot for making the exact OPPOSITE statement?



I told you off for feeling guilty because you are a jew and other jews are doing things to the palestinians.
I apologise if that post came across harsher than I meant, but I don't want you to feel guilty for something you didn't do.
Why should I feel guilty for the actions of other whites here that I have not done?
I thought we were all people? Not white, not jews, not blacks, none of that.
THAT is why I am doing this.
Think people, do you see me making trouble on this forum?
If the answer is no, then ask yourself what am I trying to do?
I am NOT trying to humiliate Bill, that isn't something I would do.

Point taken, LS. We all make generalizations about groups of people without thinking it through because it's so easy to do...part of the programming imo. As difficult as it may be, it's time to move past the generalizations and the programming to more thought-out and thought-full dialogue.

Of course, I could be totally misunderstanding the point, in which case would you please enlighten me, LS?

YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
One receiving station got the message uncorrupted.
Thanks.


Lord Sidious, do you want Fries with those nuggets? j/k

No thanks, but I wouldn't knock back some Jack Daniels though. :p


Sid I rely do expect a bashing with a bunch of your famous organic carrots for even daring to suggest this nugget!!

We had a little chat in the chat room yesterday, which I enjoyed by the way.
During our chat I asked you the situation with the radio station, as I was unaware
in which direction the proposed project was heading.

I felt your disappointment, truly. You told me It was Dead in the Water.

My question to you is, Has your response to Bill's post in this thread been triggered or tainted by you feeling ignored with regards the radio show.

I am a white man, I also know The White Man have caused untold atrocities all over this planet.

My granddad told me, To be angered at criticisms is to acknowledge they are to be deserved.

Ace runs for cover from flying carrots...

No, I am not going to carrot you for asking a genuine question.
No, this is only about one line Bill wrote and how it is different than what he meant.
And how he objects, quite rightly to people slandering him and others and how he did it to me and mine.
Also, not one white man has ever committed an atrocity.
Men did, white men did not.
Stop the madness, stop feeling guilt for stuff you didn't do.
Imagine if the context in the post I objected to was not white australians, it was africans, arabs, jews, whatever?
Do you think THAT would be more obvious?
I think it would.

Aurelius
9th May 2011, 16:47
So .. L_Sid is correct in principle, as well as Bill. hmmm ...

NancyV
9th May 2011, 16:50
Depends which forest!

...
For those of you in Australia, ask the Aboriginal Elders what damage the white men create when they permit themselves to do whatever they wish.

Planet Earth has been trashed by humans doing what they want and taking what they want without any regard for others.

This forum should be a reflection of the human race at its finest: not a reflection of the human race at its worst.


Thanks for reinforcing racist stereotypes about Australia Bill.
You should know better.
In fact, I would like you to apologise, thanks.

It's not reinforcing racist stereotypes, it's a description of what is happening.

I told you off for feeling guilty because you are a jew and other jews are doing things to the palestinians.
I apologise if that post came across harsher than I meant, but I don't want you to feel guilty for something you didn't do.
Why should I feel guilty for the actions of other whites here that I have not done?
I thought we were all people? Not white, not jews, not blacks, none of that.
THAT is why I am doing this.
Think people, do you see me making trouble on this forum?
If the answer is no, then ask yourself what am I trying to do?
I am NOT trying to humiliate Bill, that isn't something I would do.
Sorry, Sidious, in this case you overreacted and took something that is a fact personally. If Bill had said "For those of you in the USA, ask the Native American Elders what damage the white men create when they permit themselves to do whatever they wish", I would not have taken it personally. It is true that white men killed off many Indians just as it is true that white men killed off many Aborigines. That doesn't reflect on me because I am white. I did not personally participate in it but it is a fact. I don't care if there were mitigating circumstances, if the Indians killed white men if they really were a hindrance to "progress" or any other reasons why white men killed off so many Indians and Aborigines. I also don't make a final judgment about who was right or wrong. It was basically a war. I wasn't there and history is often rather distorted and incorrectly portrayed by the conquerors. But it is still a fact that many indigenous cultures have almost been wiped out, often by "white men", often by Chinese, Japanese, Blacks, etc. It's history, a fait accompli.

Demanding an apology from Bill for stating a fact is not reasonable. I hope he doesn't apologize. I sure wouldn't. In fact YOU overreacted and if anyone were to demand an apology it should be Bill, but that's not his usual style. He doesn't often overreact and make demands. He first attempts to clarify what someone's true meaning and intentions are if they are at all questionable. You also don't often overreact, but in this case you might as well just admit that you had a knee jerk reaction to a situation which seems to be a big emotional button for you. Whites killing off many Indians here in the US is not an emotional button for me. It's a fact. Indians also killed off other Indians and whites also killed whites, but whites almost wiped out the native culture.

Amor vincit omnia

EsmaEverheart
9th May 2011, 16:51
* Buys a round of Carrot Juice for all to sip while they cool down.*

Inelia
9th May 2011, 16:53
Inelia passes LS the peace carrot.

My ancestors took the land now called Chile from the Mapuche.

The Mapuche are still being killed and incarcerated for trying to protect what is our human heritage TODAY not in some historical past - ancient forests and ecological treasures. Who is destroying them? Chilean (Chile being the nation founded by Spanish decedents), European and Japanese monopolies.

Yeah, mostly white, but not all white. Do all whites and Japanese support and take part in this destruction? NO. Only those who feel they can do what they please without a thought to the destruction they are committing, and supported by a corrupt government:


http://www.vjmovement.com/truth/817

I would say that the Mapuche are the caretakers (moderators) of that part of the planet, and are badly needed.

seko
9th May 2011, 16:55
Come on Avalonians, we are here to learn and share true information. We shouldn't fight between each other. Bill was right, Lord Sidious was right. Lets move on please, I like you both. You both are clever and smart and share wisdom words now and then, in this forum. Lets keep it that way.

prometheus
9th May 2011, 16:56
Hi Lord Sidious,

I really don't understand why are you so offended by Bill's post. I'm from Spain and I'm ashamed of the demage that my fellow contrymen did in South America and Central America long time ago.... One can not deny or refuse that "That" happened.

With all my respect for you,
P.

Rigtht, so you feel guilty for something you didn't do too?
Mmmmm.
No more kool aid for you.
Why?
Why are you guilty?
Since when is guilt by association valid?
THIS IS PART OF MY POINT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Thank you for helping me.
Do you guys start to see now what I am doing?

I said "I'm ashamed". I didn't say "I feel guilty. That's the point!!!
I don't feel guilty for something I've not done but I honestly accept that the whitemen of my counttry didn't do it "well".
Don't distort my words, please.

Mad Hatter
9th May 2011, 17:08
With regard to Aboriginal history, yes as LS pointed out it is highly complex and the propaganda around it is extreme. Especially concerning the 'Stolen Generations'. What you may not know is there has been a substantial reward on offer outstanding for some time now, there for anyone to pick up providing they have concrete proof they where actually part of the purported stolen generation and not legitimately removed under the child protection paradigm as then practised.

That is not to say that I don't find my governments response to the plight of some of these people disgusting in the extreme. ie Huge sums of money start of at the top but never quite seem to hit the ground in enough quantity to make a difference. It would have a lot to do with the almost exclusively white 'do goody good good sector' sponging of the middle of the process.

Of course another problem is that of the claim of Terra Nullius which is patently false and since no treaty was ever signed they have full legal claim to the entire continent. So the cynic in me says that the gubmints preffered option has always been genocide.

Lord Sidious
9th May 2011, 17:14
Oh and Palpatine, you are one of my favourite members here. You're intelligent, highly experienced in many fields of life and make daily fantastic contributions. I have to say with this, I think you've got it wrong. That's only my subjective opinion, take it as you may. As long as you stick around please, I'd miss you otherwise!

Again, go back and read what I have said over and over.
I am not usually a troublemaker here.
If I am not trying to cause trouble now, then what I am trying to do?
Answer that, then you may get my intent.
I don't intend to go anywhere, but thanks.



Sorry, Sidious, in this case you overreacted and took something that is a fact personally. If Bill had said "For those of you in the USA, ask the Native American Elders what damage the white men create when they permit themselves to do whatever they wish", I would not have taken it personally. It is true that white men killed off many Indians just as it is true that white men killed off many Aborigines. That doesn't reflect on me because I am white. I did not personally participate in it but it is a fact. I don't care if there were mitigating circumstances, if the Indians killed white men if they really were a hindrance to "progress" or any other reasons why white men killed off so many Indians and Aborigines. I also don't make a final judgment about who was right or wrong. It was basically a war. I wasn't there and history is often rather distorted and incorrectly portrayed by the conquerors. But it is still a fact that many indigenous cultures have almost been wiped out, often by "white men", often by Chinese, Japanese, Blacks, etc. It's history, a fait accompli.

Demanding an apology from Bill for stating a fact is not reasonable. I hope he doesn't apologize. I sure wouldn't. In fact YOU overreacted and if anyone were to demand an apology it should be Bill, but that's not his usual style. He doesn't often overreact and make demands. He first attempts to clarify what someone's true meaning and intentions are if they are at all questionable. You also don't often overreact, but in this case you might as well just admit that you had a knee jerk reaction to a situation which seems to be a big emotional button for you. Whites killing off many Indians here in the US is not an emotional button for me. It's a fact. Indians also killed off other Indians and whites also killed whites, but whites almost wiped out the native culture.

Amor vincit omnia

Thanks for your input.
It is all down to one part in your post, YOU wouldn't be offended.
You are not me.
Again, if I changed it from white australians and put african american males do .................., I bet you would then want me punished.
Why is this different?
Why is it so hard for Bill to apologise?
I did.
I was harsh to my friend in my words and I had been thinking about it before.
I didn't want to hurt his feelings, I wanted to give him a reality check.
The thing is, you guys are all REACTING.
You get it?
REACTING.
To your programming. I am attempting to show you that as well as get Bill to realise that what he said and what he meant wasn't the same.


* Buys a round of Carrot Juice for all to sip while they cool down.*

Excellent, stick some vodka in it and now we are talking.
Oh, but not smirnoff, that is liquid sandpaper, stolichnaya thanks.


Inelia passes LS the peace carrot.

My ancestors took the land now called Chile from the Mapuche.

The Mapuche are still being killed and incarcerated for trying to protect what is our human heritage TODAY not in some historical past - ancient forests and ecological treasures. Who is destroying them? Chilean (Chile being the nation founded by Spanish decedents), European and Japanese monopolies.

Yeah, mostly white, but not all white. Do all whites and Japanese support and take part in this destruction? NO. Only those who feel they can do what they please without a thought to the destruction they are committing, and supported by a corrupt government:


http://www.vjmovement.com/truth/817

I would say that the Mapuche are the caretakers (moderators) of that part of the planet, and are badly needed.

Let me assume for a second that you mean your bloodline ancestors did this.
So what? That isn't you. Guilt by association is frowned upon in most circles.
I don't disagree with what you say either, but white men are not doing this, men are.
And you know why?
MONEY.
Not because they want to kill the Mapuche.
I bet the couldn't give a toss whether they survive or not.
The thing is this, this thread PROVES we are still stuck with one part of the conditioning at least.
If that is not healed, how do we then go out and heal others?


Come on Avalonians, we are here to learn and share true information. We shouldn't fight between each other. Bill was right, Lord Sidious was right. Lets move on please, I like you both. You both are clever and smart and share wisdom words now and then, in this forum. Lets keep it that way.

This isn't about who we like and who we don't like, it is about principles and integrity.
Let me ask you this, if I disliked Bill, would I not insult him back?
Call him names?
I haven't done that, have I?
I have disagreed with him on things, that is natural, but in this I think he is wrong.
When he is right, I will support him as I have.





I said "I'm ashamed". I didn't say "I feel guilty. That's the point!!!
I don't feel guilty for something I've not done but I honestly accept that the whitemen of my counttry didn't do it "well".
Don't distort my words, please.

I apologise if you think I was distorting you words, that wasn't my intent.
I am having to answer many posts and PMs too.
We will NEVER move past the race issue until you guys figure out that NO race can be held accountable for the bad deads of some of the members.
This is exactly what political correctness was designed to achieve and it has, even here.

DevilPigeon
9th May 2011, 17:23
-----

I agree, the term "white man" should have the same weighting as any other derogatory remark regarding colour, creed, race etc... The fact that it is used as a general sweeping statement, or figure of speech is wrong. The sooner we stop using such terms in totality the better.

Whitehaze
9th May 2011, 17:37
.........................................

Lord Sidious
9th May 2011, 17:37
-----

I agree, the term "white man" should have the same weighting as any other derogatory remark regarding colour, creed, race etc... The fact that it is used as a general sweeping statement, or figure of speech is wrong. The sooner we stop using such terms in totality the better.

You really are a devilpigeon. :p
Seriously though, we should just see the criminals/dirtbags and NOT the whole group.
Again, that is the whole point of my thread
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?16401-We-need-to-stop-this-madness-NOW%21
Until we stop this madness, we will simply go round and round the damn mulberry bush.
No thanks.
I like mulberries, but not that much.


I think you're right, Sid, to say it is a dangerous notion to suggest we inherit the sins of our forebears

Excellent, you got it too.
Take the middle east for example, till we let go of the he did, she did crap, there will be no peace and no security.
Talking of either with these thoughts and feelings in us is self defeating and guess who wins?
Again.
The dirtbags that we say we are against.
Well, let's stop the madness.
Who is with me to stop the madness?


Lord Sidious, I’ve often enjoyed your comments on the forum, although I disagree with your viewpoint on this particular thread.

I’m glad you are willing to speak your mind and agree you are not usually a troublemaker. But in this case at least, you could have made your point more tactfully. Often how we say something is just as important (if not more important) than the content of what we are saying.

You’ve made your point that you believed what he said was a racial stereotype, and Bill has addressed your point and supported his statement with evidence.

If you still disagree with him, you’d make your argument much stronger by saying why you think the evidence doesn’t apply, rather than commanding him to stand by his statements-- not many people like to be ordered to do things and usually won’t respond well to that.

Like you said, we're all fallible, and it makes things go much more smoothly when we try to admit our mistakes.

Tactfully is a very subjective term.
What I call tactfull and what you call that could be very different.
You may recall that Bill and others have reacted far stronger than I have to people slandering them.
I wonder, why can they DEMAND an apology but I can't?
Is there a status difference?
Is it that some of you readers are reacting to what you THINK I have said and not what I actually did say?
And please, don't tell me that a fictitious drama is evidence of anything.
Would you agree that movies are usually based on reality and not reality itself?
I always stand behind what I say, unless I have made an error, I don't see how that is radical.
Not that you are saying that, I am just saying that is how my ways are seen.
Now, the thing is, some of you are taking this as Bill vs Me.
Why is it that it has to be like that?
Why can't it be that I am trying to help not just him, but you guys too, to see the error in the thinking here?
Yes, I was offended, but then I realised Bill delivered to me on a platter an opportunity.
A healing opportunity.
We know what has been going on for a little while here about people saying things that others have taken offense to and then demanded apologies for.
Well, here is the opportunity I present to all of you, seeing as I have to spell it out, none of you realised this.
The opportunity is to see how the people that slandered some of our members, according to the said members are in some cases, mirrors of the same here.
Do you not see that Bill has done the same thing?
And won't acknowledge that?
Even as he demands the others do and that they apologise?

seko
9th May 2011, 17:42
I am with you and on this one, lets stop the madness.

Nasu
9th May 2011, 17:46
I apologise if you think I was distorting you words, that wasn't my intent.

Iv'e re-read Bills post, trying really hard to take him the wrong way, but cannot. He was merely stating what we all know, nature and the "wilderness" in particular, in the greatest part, has been tamed or is controlled by man.

He simply used Australia as an example. He could have pointed his burning messianic finger of accusation at any one of us, or indeed any country or race. I'm just glad he didn't point it at me, don't get me started on what my ancestors got up to, I don't feel It would do much good to apologize now. but two points the Sith has..

Firstly, we can reflect on what our ancestors did, perhaps learn from it, or perhaps choose to incorporate it into our lives, bring it with us if you like, or we choose to accept what was, what is and what we cannot change and instead, focus on what we can. There need be no guilt, only the guilty need feel guilty. Our actions have ripples, but outside of that, it is not our preview, accept it, let it be and get on with making things better.

Secondly, if Bill gets a chance to read all this, I hope he apologizes to the dark lord, for the misunderstanding. Life is too short. We are all equally non guilty and guilty by association, it is wrong to single out the herd. Our words are very linear without our expressions and presence, it is all too easy to come across wrong. I think bill should forgive him, have compassion for his quick temper, it gives him strength, it is, after all, only in his nature and nurture to view things through the limited kaleidoscope of the dark side.

PS: Sid, your own words twisted out of context and used as ammunition against you: "Everyone makes mistakes, me, you, Bill, all of us."

PPS: I too agree with the sentiment of Seikou Kishi's first post. Lets move on and be the change.

Peace, Calm, Unity, Love…. N

Inelia
9th May 2011, 17:49
LS, I do not feel guilty, nor carry the shame of what my ancestors did. However, I do feel the response-ability to support the Mapuche in their work and struggle.

I wonder why the word "guilt" is allocated so freely to others? Do you feel I am guilty? I would not assume you did. But you did assume I did felt guilty, a mistake. - or did I missread you?

I would not assume why you are so charged about this particular issue, but in my experience, when that amount of charge comes up about something, there is a deeper issue to be looked at and addressed.

Totally agree with you that it is about MONEY. It has always been about money, land, gold, goods, property. That's the whole point, it is, and has been, a different set of priorities that has separated the colonialists (no matter what colour) to the natives.

And, going back to topic, moderators are about keeping the set of priorities in a particular area in place.

yaksuit
9th May 2011, 17:53
Race. In the beginning it was the human race, and in the end it was the human race. All these labels we keep applying to particular members of the human race needs to stop in order for the human race to move on. When we finally get THIS clue we are going to find that there is no color that seperates the true light that resides within us all.

Well said !!

"Human grace" is not far away.

cheers,
yak

NancyV
9th May 2011, 18:04
Here in the US there are a large percentage of black men in prison compared to other races. Many people feel that stating that more black men are in jail is a racist remark. It's a FACT, not a judgment. What the heck is the politically correct thing to do now?? Ignore everyone's race and color? Sorry, that's not going to happen. Race, color and gender are all distinct characteristics which make us unique. Ignoring these differences seems about as ridiculous to me as making the differences something to persecute people for.

So it wasn't all "white men" who killed off the native American Indians and Aborigines. I bet there were some blacks, Asians, Latin Americans and even some women who participated. But the majority were white men. Should we just say "humans killed other humans who were living in America".? That would not be very descriptive and would impart little detailed information, plus it might make ET's feel left out. Maybe some of them were involved too. Maybe we should say "some embodied souls on planet earth killed off some other embodied souls". Oops, then the disembodied souls might get pissed off.

Or we could get ridiculously detailed and say "Mostly White men along with some Blacks, Asians, a couple of Women, a few teenagers, an ET who walked into a white man's body and a rabid dog possessed by the ghost of the dread pirate Roberts killed off many Native American Indians, some of whom were half white, half black and half Asian who came about from interbreeding with some of their captives who were kept as slaves."


Originally Posted by Whitehaze
Race. In the beginning it was the human race, and in the end it was the human race. All these labels we keep applying to particular members of the human race needs to stop in order for the human race to move on. When we finally get THIS clue we are going to find that there is no color that seperates the true light that resides within us all.

Labels are only tools to describe things in more detail. They cannot be offensive unless someone wishes to reject the reality of the duality that we live in and pretend that our bodies are all the same. Sure, the light within those diverse bodies is the same, that doesn't negate the fact that the details differ.

manny
9th May 2011, 18:09
i bet if this converstion was in peron 1-1..
it would havebeen resolved in 5 minutes.
"i saw it this way"
"i meant it that way"
and it would have been properly discussed and resolved.
no harm intended,to either party.
you see when someone types something ,it can be read differently to what is meant.
taken out of context.

now we have two egos,at loggerheads.imo.
there is no winner or loser.
or agree to disagree.
and let it be.

hopefully i hope no one falls out over this.

you are both better than this.
and you both know it.

Mad Hatter
9th May 2011, 18:09
I AM often asked to talk at schools and almost always ask students three questions about a film that lies about the “stolen generations”.
First: “How many of you have been shown Rabbit-Proof Fence?”
Answer: every one.
Second: “Have you been shown the movie as a great piece of film-making, or as a history lesson?”
Answer: in every case as history. You know, like you learn America’s history from John Wayne movies.
And third: “How many of you have checked whether the film is actually true, by, say, reading the book on which it’s based?”
Answer: of thousands of students, just two have raised their hand.
And that alone is reason enough for me to agree with historian Keith Windschuttle, who this week called for Rabbit-Proof Fence to be banned from our schools for being “grossly inaccurate”.
Lies are being taught as truth, and until the teachers know the difference, it’s mischievous and damaging to so deceive young children about their country’s past.
Windschuttle examines the truthfulness of Rabbit-Proof Fence in the third volume of his ground-breaking series, The Fabrication of Aboriginal History, which this time dissects the myth of the “stolen generations”.
Readers of my own columns over the years will be familiar with the evidence he presents against this award-winning film by Phillip Noyce - a film made with $5.3 million of taxpayers’ money to convince hundreds of thousands of schoolchildren that their country is so racist it really did steal 100,000 children just because they were Aboriginal.
As I’ve demonstrated before, the very first words spoken in Noyce’s film are already a lie: “This is a true story.”
This “true story” is meant to be that of Molly Craig, then 14, and her two cousins - Daisy, 8, and Gracie, 11 - who were taken in 1931 from an Aboriginal camp at Jigalong, in Western Australia’s north, and sent to a school at the Moore River Native Settlement, 2000km south, from which they escaped to trek all the way home again.
The film purports to show how the girls were stolen from loving parents by racist whites in a genocide that Noyce’s publicity material claimed was “more cruel than could ever be imagined”.
Yet when Craig was shown this “true story” at a special screening in her bush camp seven years ago, she protested: “That’s not my story.”
She was right. It isn’t.
Anyone can check that for themselves simply by reading the book which inspired it - Beyond the Rabbit-Proof Fence, written by Craig’s own daughter - even if they can’t be bothered tracking down the case documents.
Take the very first scenes of the film, which portray Jigalong as an Eden in the Pilbara - a neat bush camp, where all are clean and well-fed, and in which Craig plays happily with other children.
The truth? Pilkington wrote that her mother in fact often played alone as a child because the full-blood children told her she was “like a mongrel dog”, being neither Aboriginal nor white.
The white superintendent of the depot was worried enough to write to the state’s Chief Protector of Aborigines, A. O. Neville, that both Craig and her cousin Gracie “were not getting a fair chance as the blacks consider the H/Cs (half castes) inferior to them”. In other camps, such children were killed at birth.
That, and the absence of any father to protect her, were not the only factors that made the camp no place to raise a child such as Craig. There was also no school, no hospital and no welfare, other than the rations.
Even now, in this richer welfare era, Aboriginal bush settlements can shock those who know nothing of them. When Pilkington returned to her mother’s camp 30 years after being rescued herself, even she was shaken.
“No one prepared me for the conditions that people lived under,” she told ABC radio in 1999. “It was shocking. I hadn’t seen so many dogs in my life. It was just tin humpies and people just slept anywhere.”
So why was 14-year-old Craig removed from Jigalong?
http://blogs.news.com.au/images/uploads/rabbit1_thumb.jpg
You’d think the answer obvious. But the film instead shows Chief Protector Neville stealing Craig and her cousins simply because he’s a racist with a plan to steal half-caste children from their parents to “breed out the Aborigine”.
Neville, whose late son vehemently protested against this portrait of his respected father, is shown wickedly brooding that the youngest of the girls, eight-year-old Daisy, is promised in marriage to a “full-blood”.
How monstrous, the film suggests, that a white official should object to a fatherless eight-year-old girl being married off to a grown Aboriginal man. How racist.
In this, the film is not just morally blind - the girl is just eight, for God’s sake - but deceitful.
The truth is that Neville did not take these three girls under some blanket policy to steal all half-caste children. Indeed, Windschuttle says he removed only one other child in 1931 from all camps in Western Australia.
And as I’ve reported, Neville told the 1936 Moseley Royal Commission into the treatment of Aborigines: “The children who have been removed as wards of the Chief Protector have been removed because I desired to be satisfied that the conditions surrounding their upbringing were satisfactory, which they certainly were not ... “
What concerned Neville was their welfare - which is precisely what concerns us still about such children, and has us remove more today than Neville ever did.
It wasn’t just that Neville had been told Craig and Gracie were being ostracised. A Mrs Chellow from Murra Munda station warned him the girls were in danger of sexual abuse as well: “I think you should see about them, as they are running wild with the whites.”
This was enough for Neville, who ordered they be rescued and given an education. A future.
But Rabbit-Proof Fence piles on invention after baroque invention to make that decision seem wantonly evil .
In what Noyce calls the scene that “tells the whole story”, a policeman roars up to the girls in a car, leaping out to yank Craig from the arms of her screaming mother.
Pure fiction. Pilkington writes that the policeman actually rode on horseback to Craig’s “stepfather” to say he must remove the girls, and “the old man nodded”.
The policeman then rode calmly out, leading a second horse carrying the girls.
Almost every allegation in the film of the cruelty these girls then endured is likewise invented.
http://blogs.news.com.au/images/uploads/200512020039_52378_thumb.jpg
No, they weren’t transported in a dog-box, tossed on the back of a truck, or awoken each dawn at Moore River by a clubbing of the walls.
No, they weren’t forced to wear prison-style sacks, either. In fact, when Craig fled, her daughter says she wore “two dresses, two pairs of calico bloomers and a coat”.
But none of that matches the gravity of the central deceit of this “true story” - that it was a racist crime to rescue these girls.
What makes that deceit even more unforgivable is that Noyce is a hypocrite. He damns Neville for doing no more than he’d have done himself.
http://blogs.news.com.au/images/uploads/rabbit33_thumb.jpg
How do I know? Because Noyce “stole” his lead actor, 11-year-old Everlyn Sampi, much as Neville stole Craig, and for exactly the same reasons.
He didn’t merely pluck her from a bush town and offer her a bright future, or twice physically stop her from running away. He also knew Sampi had wagged school, and he fretted over her precocious behaviour, saying it was “odd” that she’d once asked him for something, adding: “If you do that, I will give you a kiss on the lips.”
He said this was one of the things that “makes you want to protect her, adopt her” - which is why after the shooting he sent Sampi to a boarding school near Perth.
But just like Craig, Sampi fled that school, and the last time I caught up with her she was in a remote bush town, promising to one day go to the local school.
Noyce, to his credit, did once concede to a documentary maker that what he’d done for Sampi was little different to what Neville had done for Craig, for which he’d been so vilified by Noyce’s film.
“I suppose in one way you could say that in a different context, in a different time, I’m an A. O. Neville, promising these young Aboriginal children a better life, asking them to do things that are against their instincts, perhaps because it’s for their own good ... “
Only then did I hear Noyce speak the truth about our past.
And only then did I know that, like Neville, his heart was true, even though his film was false.

Source http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/index.php/heraldsun/search?cx=000083262645058060158%3Ama8cdd_li0k&cof=FORID%3A11&q=Rabbit+Proof+Fence&num=20&sa=Search&siteurl=blogs.news.com.au%2Fheraldsun%2Fandrewbolt %2F#1650

starsmoonmtns
9th May 2011, 18:15
Here in the US there are a large percentage of black men in prison compared to other races. Many people feel that stating that more black men are in jail is a racist remark. It's a FACT, not a judgment. What the heck is the politically correct thing to do now?? Ignore everyone's race and color? Sorry, that's not going to happen. Race, color and gender are all distinct characteristics which make us unique. Ignoring these differences seems about as ridiculous to me as making the differences something to persecute people for.

So it wasn't all "white men" who killed off the native American Indians and Aborigines. I bet there were some blacks, Asians, Latin Americans and even some women who participated. But the majority were white men. Should we just say "humans killed other humans who were living in America".? That would not be very descriptive and would impart little detailed information, plus it might make ET's feel left out. Maybe some of them were involved too. Maybe we should say "some embodied souls on planet earth killed off some other embodied souls". Oops, then the disembodied souls might get pissed off.

Or we could get ridiculously detailed and say "Mostly White men along with some Blacks, Asians, a couple of Women, a few teenagers, an ET who walked into a white man's body and a rabid dog possessed by the ghost of the dread pirate Roberts killed off many Native American Indians, some of whom were half white, half black and half Asian who came about from interbreeding with some of their captives who were kept as slaves."


Originally Posted by Whitehaze
Race. In the beginning it was the human race, and in the end it was the human race. All these labels we keep applying to particular members of the human race needs to stop in order for the human race to move on. When we finally get THIS clue we are going to find that there is no color that seperates the true light that resides within us all.Labels are only tools to describe things in more detail. They cannot be offensive unless someone wishes to reject the reality of the duality that we live in and pretend that our bodies are all the same. Sure, the light within those diverse bodies is the same, that doesn't negate the fact that the details differ.

Thanks for your reply NancyV,,, truth is that you can also include indigenous peoples killed/betrayed/stole women too.
The wars were not only instigated by white man.... that is my point.

¤=[Post Update]=¤






I am sick to the back teeth of the petulant complaints about members leaving, being banned or suspended from the forum. This forum's moderators and administrators have a heavy duty upon them to ensure that the forum is a healthy and focused place in which to discuss its very important topics — if that means they lose your favour, so be it; they have greater considerations.

You're all so quick to say how awful the 'censorship' is here at Avalon as soon as somebody objects to the way in which you tear it down in your posts, but Avalon is, as has so often been mentioned, not a free house or a free-for-all. This is Bill's forum and we are here in his house to share our experiences and our thoughts. If you do not like Bill or his house rules, stop bitching about them both and leave.

I can say it not more directly: if you dislike how Avalon is run, leave.

It really should show you that there is no censorship here at Avalon when you can berate it endlessly and with impunity. If you still think there's censorship here, though, you owe it to yourself to leave, and you owe it to us to leave us in peace.

I have never said anything about censorship, IMHO this entire thread should never have been produced.... move on if that's how you feel.

I have not pointed fingers at particular people in my post, so if you feel you have been unfairly marked out you must have misunderstood. Indeed, your entire post demonstrates a regrettable lack of perspicacity. "Move on if that's how you feel". Your point has already been dealt with. I can only assume you haven't read the thread or you would have seen that it has been dealt with not once already but twice.

You keep saying 'move on if u don't like it' but your still here.....
WTF?

You no, I really couldn't appreciate your point until you made it so coarsely.
It is one thing to say "if you do not like this place, move on" and quite another to say "if you do not like how some people treat this place, move on."
Take it as u wish... I think the whole 'story' has been told a million times, and each time differently....
no need to offend. ; )

Lord Sidious
9th May 2011, 18:18
Iv'e re-read Bills post, trying really hard to take him the wrong way, but cannot. He was merely stating what we all know, nature and the "wilderness" in particular, in the greatest part, has been tamed or is controlled by man.

He simply used Australia as an example. He could have pointed his burning messianic finger of accusation at any one of us, or indeed any country or race. I'm just glad he didn't point it at me, don't get me started on what my ancestors got up to, I don't feel It would do much good to apologize now. but two points the Sith has..

Firstly, we can reflect on what our ancestors did, perhaps learn from it, or perhaps choose to incorporate it into our lives, bring it with us if you like, or we choose to accept what was, what is and what we cannot change and instead, focus on what we can. There need be no guilt, only the guilty need feel guilty. Our actions have ripples, but outside of that, it is not our preview, accept it, let it be and get on with making things better.

Secondly, if Bill gets a chance to read all this, I hope he apologizes to the dark lord, for the misunderstanding. Life is too short. We are all equally non guilty and guilty by association, it is wrong to single out the herd. Our words are very linear without our expressions and presence, it is all too easy to come across wrong. I think bill should forgive him, have compassion for his quick temper, it gives him strength, it is, after all, only in his nature and nurture to view things through the limited kaleidoscope of the dark side.

PS: Sid, your own words twisted out of context and used as ammunition against you: "Everyone makes mistakes, me, you, Bill, all of us."

PPS: I too agree with the sentiment of Seikou Kishi's first post. Lets move on and be the change.

Peace, Calm, Unity, Love…. N

Bill didn't say men, he specifically said white men.
If I said to you that the ku klux klan was justified in hanging black men for raping white women, would that be acceptable, even if I could prove that is what happened?
No, because not all black men have done that.
Why is it acceptable for Bill to use the same thing to slander me, my family and all whites here with something that has happened to the flora and fauna, then when challenged, turn it into what was done to the aborigines?
AND he doesn't even know why it was done, that is obvious.
That was not a very nice thing for him to do, switch one for the other.
I wouldn't insult anyone here by claiming that I don't make mistakes, but I also wouldn't think that anyone here would think Bill doesn't either.


LS, I do not feel guilty, nor carry the shame of what my ancestors did. However, I do feel the response-ability to support the Mapuche in their work and struggle.

I wonder why the word "guilt" is allocated so freely to others? Do you feel I am guilty? I would not assume you did. But you did assume I did felt guilty, a mistake. - or did I missread you?

I would not assume why you are so charged about this particular issue, but in my experience, when that amount of charge comes up about something, there is a deeper issue to be looked at and addressed.

Totally agree with you that it is about MONEY. It has always been about money, land, gold, goods, property. That's the whole point, it is, and has been, a different set of priorities that has separated the colonialists (no matter what colour) to the natives.

And, going back to topic, moderators are about keeping the set of priorities in a particular area in place.

Good, I am glad that you don't feel guilt for those things.
I agree about the responsibilty to help, that shouldn't even be questionable, at least as far as I can see.
The reason I used the word guilt is look at the two posts of Bills that started this.
First one is about what the whites have done to the flora here, the second one is about what we did to the aborigines.
If that isn't about guilt, what is it about? Finger pointing is usually some type of allegation, no?
The reason I reacted like I did is that I don't appreciate a) racist statements like the one Bill made and b) a different standard for him and others.
He says that you have been slandered on nexus and demanded apologies and stuff, yet won't live up to that same standard when he did it to me and mine?
I am carrying this on for all to learn the lesson, me included of what we can get out of this that is positive to move on, so that we don't go round and round and round till doomsday.
That isn't why we are on earth, we are here to progress.



Race. In the beginning it was the human race, and in the end it was the human race. All these labels we keep applying to particular members of the human race needs to stop in order for the human race to move on. When we finally get THIS clue we are going to find that there is no color that seperates the true light that resides within us all.

Well said !!

"Human grace" is not far away.

cheers,
yak

Excellent, another one gets it.


i bet if this converstion was in peron 1-1..
it would havebeen resolved in 5 minutes.
"i saw it this way"
"i meant it that way"
and it would have been properly discussed and resolved.
no harm intended,to either party.
you see when someone types something ,it can be read differently to what is meant.
taken out of context.

now we have two egos,at loggerheads.imo.
there is no winner or loser.
or agree to disagree.
and let it be.

hopefully i hope no one falls out over this.

you are both better than this.
and you both know it.

Yeah, this could have been resolved in real life quick, but that is the net for ya.
First off, thanks for caring enough to say that you hope no one falls out.
Why would that happen? This isn't me vs Bill, although it may look like it.
All I want is an apology, same as he wants from nexus members and for all of us to learn the lessons of this incident and move on.
Not alone, move on together.
There is no reason for anyone to fall out over this, that is the OLD thinking.
If we are going to help heal the world, the old thinking has to go, no?

g.k.r
9th May 2011, 18:22
maybe we should just state the powers that be did all the bad things, which is true anyway,,

think the aboriginies would use the term that bill said probs why he put it too

mondaze
9th May 2011, 18:27
accept no-one elses guilt! it's all metonym thinking! Just say no to all labels, their game is to do things in our name and then blame us... it's how they keep this whole sorry charade on the road. We, the ordinary Joes, buy into race,nation, creed and associate ourselves with the history of each... but we had absolutely no influence on that history so how are we culpable or victorious? it's all bs...

Lord Sidious
9th May 2011, 18:29
maybe we should just state the powers that be did all the bad things, which is true anyway,,

Now you are getting there.
And you know what?
They invented racism.
Guess what for?
Read the thread after Bill's post.
Then you will get an idea of why I am not letting it go.
I know them and their tactics, that is why I am effective at beating them.
I would like for you guys to have the advantage of my experience and not have to go through all the stuff I did to learn the hard way.
For all you here, remember the first times I threatened any of you with carrots.
What do you think I was doing?
What do you think I am doing now?
Nuggets, the lot of you.
Not far to go now, calm down.
We are all nearly there.


accept no-one elses guilt! it's all metonym thinking! Just say no to all labels, their game is to do things in our name and then blame us... it's how they keep this whole sorry charade on the road. We, the ordinary Joes, buy into race,nation, creed and associate ourselves with the history of each... but we had absolutely no influence on that history so how are we culpable or victorious? it's all bs...

YAY!
Another one is on the same wavelength. :cool:

DevilPigeon
9th May 2011, 18:32
maybe we should just state the powers that be did all the bad things, which is true anyway,,

Now you are getting there.
And you know what?
They invented racism.
Guess what for?
Read the thread after Bill's post.
Then you will get an idea of why I am not letting it go.
I know them and their tactics, that is why I am effective at beating them.
I would like for you guys to have the advantage of my experience and not have to go through all the stuff I did to learn the hard way.
For all you here, remember the first times I threatened any of you with carrots.
What do you think I was doing?
What do you think I am doing now?
Nuggets, the lot of you.
Not far to go now, calm down.
We are all nearly there.

Divide and conquer. Same with religion.

Lord Sidious
9th May 2011, 18:34
maybe we should just state the powers that be did all the bad things, which is true anyway,,

Now you are getting there.
And you know what?
They invented racism.
Guess what for?
Read the thread after Bill's post.
Then you will get an idea of why I am not letting it go.
I know them and their tactics, that is why I am effective at beating them.
I would like for you guys to have the advantage of my experience and not have to go through all the stuff I did to learn the hard way.
For all you here, remember the first times I threatened any of you with carrots.
What do you think I was doing?
What do you think I am doing now?
Nuggets, the lot of you.
Not far to go now, calm down.
We are all nearly there.

Divide and conquer. Same with religion.

Good man.
Thanks for that.
No carrots for you.
Even if you really are a devilpigeon. :p

You guys gotta stop all this nuggetry, I can't make you all attack me and then help you all heal every few months.

Mad Hatter
9th May 2011, 18:39
Well I would like to apoligise for allowing my ego of the leash yet again. I do hope it has not done any harm...
Thank you Bill and Avalon for yet another extraordinary evening.

Mad Hatter dons his nigh cap and passes out...zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Seikou-Kishi
9th May 2011, 18:43
Let the sun shine, Let the sun shine in
The sun shine in

//repeat and fade to finish//

Lol

Dorok
9th May 2011, 18:44
I think the point is very simple. Blaming something on 'white men' is the equivalent of associating the guilt with the race rather than the individuals. 'White' is an unnecessary modifier unless the point being made is to associate that detail to the blame. It's a bit pedantic, but nonetheless an important distinction to be able to make.

SKIBADABOMSKI
9th May 2011, 18:52
http://i54.tinypic.com/168623m.jpg

DeDukshyn
9th May 2011, 19:05
...
Bill didn't say men, he specifically said white men.
If I said to you that the ku klux klan was justified in hanging black men for raping white women, would that be acceptable, even if I could prove that is what happened?


With all due respect your Sithness, There is one hugely glaring difference between your example and Bill's remark which is the reason why I don't find Bill's statement racist (even with the "white" reference). The reason is Bill was justifying nothing - just reporting.

"If I said to you that the ku klux klan was justified..." -- Your example. I can't find any similar justifications in Bill's statement.
At what point should our descriptions of things be watered down so as not to be seen as "racist" by those who are slap-happy with labels?

I'm white as white can be, and my people did all kinds of nasty stuff to native americans here ... white people did it and I don't care who says it, because it is true.

Reminds me of a Russel Peter's skit ... ;) (language warning)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LlKKkXQGrMQ&feature=related

Amer
9th May 2011, 19:12
Are we afraid of real dialogue? Have we become obsessed with being so politically correct that we’re afraid to put a foot wrong? It is wonderful to talk about loving one another, ascending, creating peace , harmony and fantastic vibrations- believe me I’m first there in line!But friends there’s really nothing wrong with passionately and intelligently voicing your opinion. It’s healthy as long as it is in the true pursuit of knowledgeand with respect. Sometimes we overstep ourselves in the process but those big enough in spirit come back and say hey I’m sorry if I was a bit over the top and disrespectful.

I have learnt so much from the exchange between Lord Sid and Bill- haven’t a lot of you as well? I’m not going to comment because I have to think about it but I want to say thank you to Lord Sid and Bill for their passion. Thank you Sid (may I call you Sid ?!) for his capability of putting himself across in a way that is not at all offensive . From what I have seen of him he is the first to apologise if he genuinely feels he’s overstepped the mark.But he had courage to play out his thought and confront someone, in this case Bill, on their point of view and to dispute it. It will be up to them what resolution they will find. I can understand Bill may be aghast at the thought of his name being linked to a racial comment - and at the same time I understand that Sid is calling us all out here to think about the words we use for others and the stereotypes ingrained within us.( also unknowingly )

To Seikou-Kishi this exchange goes to demonstrate what I was trying to say to Paul in the thread “another member gone”- again I was not bitching- I was disputing his idea of using the word “impugn” in relation to banning Chicodoodoo because the written word leaves its mark. And so he leaves the idea attached to Chicodoodoo of attacking members. Instead a healthy debate could have been opened like what is happening here. ( why the heck are you not banned already Sid?!!:laser::eek:)
The brain does not recognize the command “do not” - Do not think about pink monkeys- your brain will automatically try to visualize them! Sweeping stuff under the carpet/refusing to engage will come back to bite the proverbial bum :eek:

I’m off to think about Sid’s and Bill’s points ofview. Time for this Irish girl laden down with historical stereotyping to put the kettle on. :wave:

Lord Sidious
9th May 2011, 19:15
...
Bill didn't say men, he specifically said white men.
If I said to you that the ku klux klan was justified in hanging black men for raping white women, would that be acceptable, even if I could prove that is what happened?


With all due respect your Sithness, There is one hugely glaring difference between your example and Bill's remark which is the reason why I don't find Bill's statement racist (even with the "white" reference). The reason is Bill was justifying nothing - just reporting.

"If I said to you that the ku klux klan was justified..." -- Your example. I can't find any similar justifications in Bill's statement.
At what point should our descriptions of things be watered down so as not to be seen as "racist" by those who are slap-happy with labels?

I'm white as white can be, and my people did all kinds of nasty stuff to native americans here ... white people did it and I don't care who says it, because it is true.

Reminds me of a Russel Peter's skit ... ;) (language warning)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LlKKkXQGrMQ&feature=related

Your point is valid, Bill didn't SAY it was justified, this is true.
I was using that as an example and you proved my point.
When do we learn, remember WHO we are and move on?
Are you going to help stop the madness?


Are we afraid of real dialogue? Have we become obsessed with being so politically correct that we’re afraid to put a foot wrong? It is wonderful to talk about loving one another, ascending, creating peace , harmony and fantastic vibrations- believe me I’m first there in line!But friends there’s really nothing wrong with passionately and intelligently voicing your opinion. It’s healthy as long as it is in the true pursuit of knowledgeand with respect. Sometimes we overstep ourselves in the process but those big enough in spirit come back and say hey I’m sorry if I was a bit over the top and disrespectful.

I have learnt so much from the exchange between Lord Sid and Bill- haven’t a lot of you as well? I’m not going to comment because I have to think about it but I want to say thank you to Lord Sid and Bill for their passion. Thank you Sid (may I call you Sid ?!) for his capability of putting himself across in a way that is not at all offensive . From what I have seen of him he is the first to apologise if he genuinely feels he’s overstepped the mark.But he had courage to play out his thought and confront someone, in this case Bill, on their point of view and to dispute it. It will be up to them what resolution they will find. I can understand Bill may be aghast at the thought of his name being linked to a racial comment - and at the same time I understand that Sid is calling us all out here to think about the words we use for others and the stereotypes ingrained within us.( also unknowingly )

To Seikou-Kishi this exchange goes to demonstrate what I was trying to say to Paul in the thread “another member gone”- again I was not bitching- I was disputing his idea of using the word “impugn” in relation to banning Chicodoodoo because the written word leaves its mark. And so he leaves the idea attached to Chicodoodoo of attacking members. Instead a healthy debate could have been opened like what is happening here. ( why the heck are you not banned already Sid?!!:laser::eek:)
The brain does not recognize the command “do not” - Do not think about pink monkeys- your brain will automatically try to visualize them! Sweeping stuff under the carpet/refusing to engage will come back to bite the proverbial bum :eek:

I’m off to think about Sid’s and Bill’s points ofview. Time for this Irish girl laden down with historical stereotyping to put the kettle on. :wave:

Thanks for your observations and for thinking about what I mean.
Call me Rob, that is the name I was given to use in this life.

Lettherebelight
9th May 2011, 19:25
I understand. LS was referring to the reference made to an entire race, in an atomosphere which is currently focussed on 'ascension' of such bodily designations.

Take out the word 'white', then everything is alwight...right?

I think Morgan says it a little better than I can...

GeixtYS-P3s

But the initial statement was made in response to whether or not moderators are necessary in the natural world.

In answer... Yes they are there, but you can't see them with your eyeballs.

Amer
9th May 2011, 19:27
Just an after-thought: it might be a good idea to move this discussion to a thread of its own because it really is quite thought-provoking. What thinks ye? Yah or nay?

manny
9th May 2011, 19:33
mods....
can you ban bill and lord sid for a week for a cooling off period.;)
or tell them to sort it out on chat.
Iilie watch the ratings go up.lol.

Lord Sidious
9th May 2011, 19:35
I understand. LS was referring to the reference made to an entire race, in an atomosphere which is currently focussed on 'ascension' of such bodily designations.

Take out the word 'white', then everything is alwight...right?

I think Morgan says it a little better than I can...

GeixtYS-P3s

But the initial statement was made in response to whether or not moderators are necessary in the natural world.

In answer... Yes they are there, but you can't see them with your eyeballs.

No carrots for you either.


mods....
can you ban bill and lord sid for a week for a cooling off period.;)

But HUGE sharpened organic carrots for you.
Nugget.

manny
9th May 2011, 19:58
although i prefer peace,and agreement.

it would be interesting,and a little fun.
so set a time and date,for a chat war.
in the red corner..using the force is LOOOORRRD SIIIID.
in the blue corner....with a big floppy HAAAT is BIIIIIL RYAAAAN.
and i,ll take the bets.;)

DeDukshyn
9th May 2011, 20:20
Lesson for the day: Don't add your feelings to someone else's descriptors. Volatile formula will result...

K626
9th May 2011, 20:23
What's going on here?!! :o

Race was and is still part of the divide and conquer paradigm. It has been the precursor to justify various acts of genocide and suppression planet wide and still is. It's why there isn't any real
outcry that America isn't really counting civilian deaths in Iraq and Afg (cause they know that the majority are too desensatised to care or cause much of a fuss and most don't really care as long as it is brown people dying in a far away land).

The heavy baggage of racist terms is to do with the history of race and imperialism and slavery and so on...It is by implication condensed into various racists words ie wog, ****** and so on..It is the same with racism against the Irish (it is hurtful because the Irish have sufferred historically etc..).

Real racist words are about history, the history of domination and the reminding of that domination in a word.


K

K626
9th May 2011, 20:28
...btw I disagree with Morgan Freeman because he is electing to erase his blackness. His blackness is still what defines him in America and not the fact that he is who he is and the increadibly talented person he is. That is a still a sad fact and he knows he feels it in certain situations socially and in society as a whole that he is looked on as 'the other'. This coding is reflexive and ingrained in the white psyche. These are the facts.

cheers

K

Lord Sidious
9th May 2011, 20:36
Lesson for the day: Don't add your feelings to someone else's descriptors. Volatile formula will result...

That could be one lesson, this is true, but that isn't a high level one, that is a low level one.



What's going on here?!! :o

Race was and is still part of the divide and conquer paradigm. It has been the precursor to justify various acts of genocide and suppression planet wide and still is. It's why there isn't any real
outcry that America isn't really counting civilian deaths in Iraq and Afg (cause they know that the majority are too desensatised to care or cause much of a fuss and most don't really care as long as it is brown people dying in a far away land).

The heavy baggage of racist terms is to do with the history of race and imperialism and slavery and so on...It is by implication condensed into various racists words ie wog, ****** and so on..It is the same with racism against the Irish (it is hurtful because the Irish have sufferred historically etc..).

Real racist words are about history, the history of domination and the reminding of that domination in a word.


K


...btw I disagree with Morgan Freeman because he is electing to erase his blackness. His blackness is still what defines him in America and not the fact that he is who he is and the increadibly talented person he is. That is a still a sad fact and he knows he feels it in certain situations socially and in society as a whole that he is looked on as 'the other'. This coding is reflexive and ingrained in the white psyche. These are the facts.

cheers

K

What you say is true, that is why I would like to see us criticise people, not groups.
And the racism thing is in each group, not any group in particular.
Untill we overcome this, it will be like a sea anchor that we are towing behind us, holding us back.
We MUST overcome this if we are to advance.

Steve C
9th May 2011, 20:42
Deleted post................

K626
9th May 2011, 20:44
Knew you'd get it Sid.

FWIW I have little respect for the Will Smith types who rarely talk about 'the black experience' (Gifted beings like Muhammed Ali never shut up about it cause the discourse was too important).

Racism will always be a soft option till the hard option of AMERICAN BLACK HISTORY being properly and fully disucssed and de-mystifyied occurs. This is mainly the fault and carefully considered agenda setting of the MSM of course.

Just recently I was astonuded by the coverage of Al Jazeera during the Egyptian revolution compared to the sanitised and everyday coverage of the BBC and its 'people need to get to the bank and get on with their lives' slant.



cheers

K

manny
9th May 2011, 20:47
lord sid and bill on a cloud in the pearly gates.

lord sid"bill,do you remember that discussion we had on your website"
bill"yeah ,sid i do"
lord sid"did we acheive anything"
bill"not sure we are still discussing it now"

;)

now thats gotta make you both smile.
get on with it guys.
you,ve both got a job to do.....

OnyxKnight
9th May 2011, 20:52
Can we replace the "white men" with the anglo-saxon men? It would make more sense. Although I did understand what Bill meant as soon as I read it, so I don't see how others, especially Sidius fail to see it. Maybe because you guys interpret things the way you like to interpret them?

Sid, you are not shy about your pro-white views, and if one was to examine your post contribution to this forum thoroughly, could also notice that. I respect that you are not hiding behind some made up arguments why you view things the way you do, you just do. But I don't have any respect for twisting other people's sentences and changing their context.

You are twice the age I am. One would think you can recognize the context of a sentence (we all speak and understand English here, don't we?), when one reads it.

History is clear about certain things. White anglo-saxon men (not sure there are any other types) did invade the Americas, South Africa, and Australia/New Zealand. Not something I have seen the black people do for instance. If you have an issue with history, take it to the historians and argue with them, although I don't see how one can argue with facts.

Also, I understand white pride is something very close to you, and if everybody knew this, they probably wouldn't react to your posts the way they did. They would understand. And Bill may have unintentionally hit a nerve here, and if he knew this back there he would have either word his post differently, or he would just not respond to you at all (which I think would have been a better thing to do, as you get real grumpy everytime "white race" is being mentioned in a slightly negative context).

Now can we go back on topic please?

Concerning this thread, I think I also am sick and tired of people pointing the fingers at others and criticize if they have objected to something or they have questioned it.

I'm only human and I do like to question things. I do like to have that freedom. I may not always be right about that, but I do like to have the right to do it regardless. If I'm not allowed to object, criticize and question things, then this forum is nothing better than any other forum, or the real world out there, where there is a limit to what you can criticize/object.

If one has a clean cheek of honor and integrity, and they know they are right about something, and that they are acting righteously, then they wouldn't be so against criticism and questioning. They would allow that to happen, and let those who criticize and question things, be proven wrong when the time is right.

That being said, I have seen people being very aggressive towards Bill, and his associates, mods etc. Aggressive in some cases is an understatement. I think if one needs to relay a (constructive) criticism about something, that they choose their words carefully, and make sure they don't sound too harsh or offensive. We do need to keep a level of decency here, right?

Threads like this don't do anything good except to bring two sides of a very complex equation on each other's throat (those who are critical, and those who are favoring those being critiqued). Let's focus on something else, something more productive, shall we?

Daft Ada
9th May 2011, 20:59
Dear oh dear, has it come to this :drama:

Seikou-Kishi
9th May 2011, 21:05
I'm sorry that you think Lord Sid to be a racist, OnyxKnight. I find so much wrong with your comment I can't bring myself to begin the mammoth task it would surely be to refute your badly formed arguments.

Lord Sidious
9th May 2011, 21:05
Can we replace the "white men" with the anglo-saxon men? It would make more sense. Although I did understand what Bill meant as soon as I read it, so I don't see how others, especially Sidius fail to see it. Maybe because you guys interpret things the way you like to interpret them?

Aha, you assumed that I did not know what he meant.
If you read my posts, you will see that I said I knew that. It was what he wrote that I was unhappy with.
And the fact that it is ok to say one thing, but not the reverse.


Sid, you are not shy about your pro-white views, and if one was to examine your post contribution to this forum thoroughly, could also notice that. I respect that you are not hiding behind some made up arguments why you view things the way you do, you just do.

I have my views, many people know what I believe. I am honest about that, why would I hide it?
I am not anti - any group, so I fail to see what you are trying to say, other than to make out that I am a racist as you have done before.


But I don't have any respect for twisting other people's sentences and changing their context.

Funny that you are doing that to mine, but no worries, keep digging, there is another 45 miles before you hit anything of substance.


You are twice the age I am. One would think you can recognize the context of a sentence (we all speak and understand English here, don't we?), when one reads it.

Yet again you assume to try and make me an idiot. Didn't work yesterday, today and won't work tomorrow.


History is clear about certain things. White anglo-saxon men (not sure there are any other types) did invade the Americas, South Africa, and Australia/New Zealand. Not something I have seen the black people do for instance. If you have an issue with history, take it to the historians and argue with them, although I don't see how one can argue with facts.

Well, you might wanna go back and do some reading. Where do you think the aborigines came from before they got to australia? Who was here before that?
And what you say is fact, is open to debate.
Were you there? Did you experience that with your own senses?
If not, that is hearsay.


Also, I understand white pride is something very close to you, and if everybody knew this, they probably wouldn't react to your posts the way they did.

Again you attempt to make me out as a racist. Keep going, you have one finger pointed at me and three at you.


They would understand. And Bill may have unintentionally hit a nerve here, and if he knew this back there he would have either word his post differently, or he would just not respond to you at all (which I think would have been a better thing to do, as you get real grumpy everytime "white race" is being mentioned in a slightly negative context.
You may find that I don't appreciate all types of racial comments, not just aimed at whites.
You see, I don't like dirtbags, whatever type you can name.
By all means, continue to attack my character, it will only come back on you.
My character stands on it's own merits, your opinion of me means nothing to me.
Better luck next time.

PegasusRising
9th May 2011, 21:07
"I think you mean I am the nugget, but that is ok, we are all entitled to have an opinion.
I am not offended.
I feel I am right, Bill feels he is right.
Who is right? That is open to interpretation".[/QUOTE] Lord Sidious

We are getting into duality here. Right and wrong, up and down, black and white.
I am also an Australian and I was not offended by Bill's explanation, I didn't find it a racist stereotypes, so am I also right?
We are wasting a lot of energy on nitpicking, when there is a bigger picture. We want to be evolving beyond all of this, exploring our human potential. Everything is open to interpretation, we decode it through our believes and experiences and then we react according to the hardwiring. Let's start to rewire the system so we can push our limitations and create something magical.
I wish you all a joyous evening or morning.

Lord Sidious
9th May 2011, 21:09
Lord Sidious

We are getting into duality here. Right and wrong, up and down, black and white.
I am also an Australian and I was not offended by Bill's explanation, I didn't find it a racist stereotypes, so am I also right?
We are wasting a lot of energy on nitpicking, when there is a bigger picture. We want to be evolving beyond all of this, exploring our human potential. Everything is open to interpretation, we decode it through our believes and experiences and then we react according to the hardwiring. Let's start to rewire the system so we can push our limitations and create something magical.
I wish you all a joyous evening or morning.

Did you read all my posts in this thread?

OnyxKnight
9th May 2011, 21:13
I didn't exactly said you are racist, I said you favor Caucasian people (hence why you used the term "my family" back there, when addressing Bill Ryan's post. Since its not a secret, your views I mean, you surely don't feel the need to justify them to me, do you?

There are several identical characters like yourself on the David Icke forums, and its almost predictable how you would react, on certain topics/threads. So yes I have a history with such discussions.

Regarding the Aborigine people, there will be a post on my thread regarding Earth's history, maybe you could find the answers there (if you are looking for them, if not, oh well...)

Rocky_Shorz
9th May 2011, 21:17
:nhl_checking: :fans:

:popcorn::pop2::pop2::pop2:

K626
9th May 2011, 21:19
Think Onyx is being very disingenous within this debate and has used it as a springboard for nothing more than a naked attack on Sid.

*Just read back through the thread and I can see there has clearly been a misunderstanding between two intelligent men. Like that never happens!

Peace to all.

Avalon Lives!!

K

Lord Sidious
9th May 2011, 21:21
I didn't exactly said you are racist, I said you favor Caucasian people (hence why you used the term "my family" back there, when addressing Bill Ryan's post. Since its not a secret, your views I mean, you surely don't feel the need to justify them to me, do you?

There are several identical characters like yourself on the David Icke forums, and its almost predictable how you would react, on certain topics/threads. So yes I have a history with such discussions.

Regarding the Aborigine people, there will be a post on my thread regarding Earth's history, maybe you could find the answers there (if you are looking for them, if not, oh well...)

Erm, my family are white australians, no?
And no, I don't need to justify my beliefs to you.
Or Bill, or anyone.
Whether I am right or wrong is very subjective.
I would challenge you to find anything I have said on this forum that could be said to be racist and ask the moderation staff if anything like that was removed.


Think Onyx is being very disingenous within this debate and has used it as a springboard for nothing more than a naked attack on Sid.

*Just read back through the thread and I can see there has clearly been a misunderstanding between two intelligent men. Like that never happens!

Peace to all.

Avalon Lives!!

K

It is ok, he has one finger forward, three back, leave him go.

Seikou-Kishi
9th May 2011, 21:22
I didn't exactly said you are racist, I said you favor Caucasian people (hence why you used the term "my family" back there, when addressing Bill Ryan's post. Since its not a secret, your views I mean, you surely don't feel the need to justify them to me, do you?

There are several identical characters like yourself on the David Icke forums, and its almost predictable how you would react, on certain topics/threads. So yes I have a history with such discussions.

Regarding the Aborigine people, there will be a post on my thread regarding Earth's history, maybe you could find the answers there (if you are looking for them, if not, oh well...)

"My family" means "my family"; he wasn't referring metaphorically to "my family white people everywhere".

The point Lord Sidious has been trying to make is that he should not feel shame for the actions of other people. He has only his own conduct to manage. If you say he is pro-white, it is only that he does not feel that specific, individual white people should feel guilt for things they haven't personally done. I don't expect every German person to mutter their apologies whenever they pass me by. I do not think you have any intention of trying to understand Sid's position, though. You want to make him out to be a racist and will not be satisfied until the mud you're slinging sticks.

DeDukshyn
9th May 2011, 21:22
Can we replace the "white men" with the anglo-saxon men?
...

The irony is yes, by all accounts it most likely would have made a difference... To me that is what the entire problem is. Everyone wants to be a victim so they take words that can possibly be interpreted that way then make an emotional statement about it. It is up to the receiver to be responsible enough to use discernment. You see, (not you Oxy, I just stepped up to the soapbox), racism is 50% perceived, and those who wish to be victims will always perceive it. I knew this lovely black girl once, but she had this issue where everything that she perceived was due to racism. If someone rude jerk walked into the store and was rude, she'd cry the racism song. But that guy was an asshole to everyone - he didn't discriminate at all - he was just a jerk, but in her mind he was a racist and treated her rudely because she was black. A complete fabrication to justify her victim mentality. In her world racism was the biggest problem there ever was, is and will be. Was she a victim of racism? In reality maybe some (I never noticed it), but in her mind it was a constant that would never change.

Now let's assume that every person is "cured" of racism, but there are still people who "percieve" things as acts of racism. Does racism still exist? Yes it does to them, but does that mean it is "real"? No. Not necessarily.

Sidous "perceived" an act of racism. Did it exist? My above description desires that the perceiver be removed from the formula so we can remove the "victim" influence. Now let's look at the potentially offending statements. What can we define as "definately racist without a doubt"? What can we define as "potentially racist depending on the intention of the writer/speaker". The second we can address -- just ask the writer/speaker what his/her intentions were. Were his/her intentions racist? If not we can eliminate that.

So how do we define "definately racist without a doubt"? In writing or speaking, it would have to be something like "consistent justification of ill acts towards no specific member of a race of people", or "consistent derogatory language towards ..." In action, it would have to be the action itself.

This post isn't really directed at Sidous, he was just trying to make a point. I'm just hoping to point out a "higher level" perspective on racism.

OnyxKnight
9th May 2011, 21:23
Attack? lol



Fine, negative forum presence leaves! :rapture:



PS: This is exactly what I meant when I said taking things out of context.

Lord Sidious
9th May 2011, 21:29
Attack? lol



Fine, negative forum presence leaves! :rapture:



PS: This is exactly what I meant when I said taking things out of context.

Dassvidanya, tovarich.
Better luck next time. :p

OnyxKnight
9th May 2011, 21:33
"My family" means "my family"; he wasn't referring metaphorically to "my family white people everywhere".

The point Lord Sidious has been trying to make is that he should not feel shame for the actions of other people. He has only his own conduct to manage. If you say he is pro-white, it is only that he does not feel that specific, individual white people should feel guilt for things they haven't personally done. I don't expect every German person to mutter their apologies whenever they pass me by. I do not think you have any intention of trying to understand Sid's position, though. You want to make him out to be a racist and will not be satisfied until the mud you're slinging sticks.

You forget the million dollar question: What the hell, do I get, for making him racist? A freaking medal!? LOL

He is doing a pretty fine job himself if you ask me. DeDukshyn explained things perfectly about this.

Bill was pointing out something factual, which got him all jigged up, because the term 'white' was mentioned. Why didn't I freak out, or any other white men? Only he did, and he felt such an insult to confront Bill in a very harsh manner. But like I said, I'm leaving the forum now since I don't see the point in sticking somewhere where I'm considered a "troublemaker" or attacking people. Довидување :)

Amer
9th May 2011, 21:35
If there’s one thing I can’t tolerate it is innuendo. If we are going to post things – post the whole bloody lot because this is unfair to all of us who invest time and energy in genuinely trying to understand .When we start to enter “white pride” “pro-white views” into the equation well then the debate takes a different turn for me. Perhaps I really am too slow on the uptake because #1 I didn’t entertain a genuine racist agenda here. Attaching a racist slur to Bill Ryan is quite ridiculous, and if I understood correctly Rob was calling into question the words we use without thinking of their weight-but not that Bill was racist in any way. And #2 I didn’t entertain the fact that Rob was coming from a “white pride” “pro-white view” background because these are also words that carry a certain amount of heavy duty weight with them.

So OnyxKnight please call a spade a spade, hinting at details serve only to confuse. Remember what weight words carry. I recall a pervious Avalon poster who is not a member anymore who continually posted comments “if you all knew what I know well then…..”It totally frustrated and angered me. It serves nothing. If the debate is not honest by all parties well then that is down-right two-faced. And I hate that .Just hate that. If we can’t be honest we are nothing.

Rant over.

Lord Sidious
9th May 2011, 21:37
"My family" means "my family"; he wasn't referring metaphorically to "my family white people everywhere".

The point Lord Sidious has been trying to make is that he should not feel shame for the actions of other people. He has only his own conduct to manage. If you say he is pro-white, it is only that he does not feel that specific, individual white people should feel guilt for things they haven't personally done. I don't expect every German person to mutter their apologies whenever they pass me by. I do not think you have any intention of trying to understand Sid's position, though. You want to make him out to be a racist and will not be satisfied until the mud you're slinging sticks.

You forget the million dollar question: What the hell, do I get, for making him racist? A freaking medal!? LOL

He is doing a pretty fine job himself if you ask me. DeDukshyn explained things perfectly about this.

Bill was pointing out something factual, which got him all jigged up, because the term 'white' was mentioned. Why didn't I freak out, or any other white men? Only he did, and he felt such an insult to confront Bill in a very harsh manner. But like I said, I'm leaving the forum now since I don't see the point in sticking somewhere where I'm considered a "troublemaker" or attacking people. Довидување :)

By all means, find one post that could show I am what you say I am.
Go ahead.

K626
9th May 2011, 21:38
Can we replace the "white men" with the anglo-saxon men?
...

The irony is yes, by all accounts it most likely would have ... To me that is what the entire problem is. Everyone wants to be a victim so they take words that can possibly be interpreted that way then make an emotional statement about it. It is up to the receiver to be responsible enough to use discernment. You see, (not you Oxy, I just stepped up to the soapbox), racism is 50% perceived, and those who wish to be victims will always perceive it. I knew this lovely black girl once, but she had this issue where everything that she perceived was due to racism. If someone rude jerk walked into the store and was rude, she'd cry the racism song. But that guy was an asshole to everyone - he didn't disciminate at all - he was just a jerk, but in her mind he was a racist and treated her rudely because she was black. A complete fabrication to justify her victim mentality. In her world racism was the biggest problem there ever was, is and will be. Was she a victim of racism? In reality maybe some (I never noticed it), but in her mind it was a constant that would never change.

Now let's assume that every person is "cured" of racism, but there are still people who "percieve" things as acts of racism. Does racism still exist? Yes it does to them, but does that mean it is "real"? No. Not necessarily.

Sidous "perceived" an act of racism. Did it exist? Since my above desciption desires that the perceiver be removed from the formula so we can remove the "victim" influence. Now let's look at the potentially offending statements. What can we define as "definately racist without a doubt"? What can we define as "potentially racist depending on the intention of the writer/speaker". The second we can address -- just ask the writer/speaker what his/her intentions were. Were his/her intentions racist? If not we can eliminate that.

So how do we define "definately racist without a doubt"? In writing or speaking, it would have to be something like "consistent justification of ill acts towards no specific member of a race of people", or "consistent derogatory language towards ..." In action, it would have to be the action itself.

This post isn't really directed at Sidous, he was just trying to make a point. I'm just hoping to point out a "higher level" perspective on racism.


Racism is learnt behaviour. It is taught and it often starts in the family and is re-inforced at school.

You very very rarely see racism at a Kindergarten because the child is still neutral, but as they hit 7/8/9 they start to pick up on it.

It is a cultural constant.

It is part of the armoury of the PTB and the ruling elite.

It is considered and determined it is agenda setting and re-enforced by the MSM.

One solid example is hip hop which back in the day started as rap music and was basically social poetry to breakbeats (black youth on street corners talking about thier REAL lives and so on)..Once this was taken over by record companies and turned into a commodity it was removed from the street (not in all cases) and now we have gansta rap and bitches and bling and artists talking not about the real issues any longer but how big their new car is (fantasy black lives with swimming pools and champagne). These black artists are supported and kept there by the mainstream to mislead and confuse and mystify the black experience and the original soul of rap has been colonised by white business interests (record companies and multinationals) and white agenda setting (demeaning the roots of the original movement)..

There are no accidents here, it is carefully considered with malice aforethought and pre-determined strategies against black culture. It is top down control at its finest. It is evasive and it is flim flam and why most of white america doesn't identify with the lot of black americans is cause it is kept from them it is kept exotic and mystifyied and that is CONTROL and the MSM do it as a matter of course.

cheers

X

Meadowlark
9th May 2011, 21:55
Tactfully is a very subjective term.
What I call tactfull and what you call that could be very different.
You may recall that Bill and others have reacted far stronger than I have to people slandering them.
I wonder, why can they DEMAND an apology but I can't?
Is there a status difference?
Is it that some of you readers are reacting to what you THINK I have said and not what I actually did say?
And please, don't tell me that a fictitious drama is evidence of anything.
Would you agree that movies are usually based on reality and not reality itself?
I always stand behind what I say, unless I have made an error, I don't see how that is radical.
Not that you are saying that, I am just saying that is how my ways are seen.
Now, the thing is, some of you are taking this as Bill vs Me.
Why is it that it has to be like that?
Why can't it be that I am trying to help not just him, but you guys too, to see the error in the thinking here?
Yes, I was offended, but then I realised Bill delivered to me on a platter an opportunity.
A healing opportunity.
We know what has been going on for a little while here about people saying things that others have taken offense to and then demanded apologies for.
Well, here is the opportunity I present to all of you, seeing as I have to spell it out, none of you realised this.
The opportunity is to see how the people that slandered some of our members, according to the said members are in some cases, mirrors of the same here.
Do you not see that Bill has done the same thing?
And won't acknowledge that?
Even as he demands the others do and that they apologise?

Hi Sidious,

Fair point about tactful, being a subjective term.

I see that you feel Bill slandered you by referring to “white men” but as a white man myself, I just don’t feel that way. He probably should have said “some white men.” If he had used the word some, I think it would be hard to argue with the accuracy as what Bill said.

Look, as far as there being a double-standard, I basically agree with you that no one should be treated differently on this forum. But I’ve only been here for about a month, so I just don’t know if others have demanded an apology in the past under similar circumstances as you claim.

I was here though when members were banned a few weeks ago, and even though I haven’t posted about it yet, I wasn’t completely happy with how it was handled either.

So please don’t think this is me just rushing in to defend whoever is in charge of this forum. My reaction doesn’t have anything to do with that; I would have the same reaction no matter who you this pertained to.

When you say things like, “Don’t justify your statement;” “Be a man;” or “Stand behind what you wrote, don’t try to evade it;” you’re making commands that I don’t think are going to be very effective in getting someone to listen to you.

If you think he’s contradicting himself or applying a double-standard, then I think you’d be a lot more persuasive if you just said that and then provide evidence of where you think that happened.

Bill Ryan
9th May 2011, 21:58
Attack? lol

Fine, negative forum presence leaves!

PS: This is exactly what I meant when I said taking things out of context.

Dassvidanya, tovarich.
Better luck next time. :p

Enough, Lord Sid. You are way out of line.

Here are Seikou-Kishi's original posts:


I am sick to the back teeth of the petulant complaints about members leaving, being banned or suspended from the forum. This forum's moderators and administrators have a heavy duty upon them to ensure that the forum is a healthy and focused place in which to discuss its very important topics — if that means they lose your favour, so be it; they have greater considerations.

You're all so quick to say how awful the 'censorship' is here at Avalon as soon as somebody objects to the way in which you tear it down in your posts, but Avalon is, as has so often been mentioned, not a free house or a free-for-all. This is Bill's forum and we are here in his house to share our experiences and our thoughts. If you do not like Bill or his house rules, stop bitching about them both and leave.

I can say it not more directly: if you dislike how Avalon is run, leave.

It really should show you that there is no censorship here at Avalon when you can berate it endlessly and with impunity. If you still think there's censorship here, though, you owe it to yourself to leave, and you owe it to us to leave us in peace.



Oh what a rant that was...

I see it as people sorry to see friends leave here for whatever reasons, and those reasons are their personal reasons. If I see a thread that I am bored of seeing or have no interest in, I DO NOT READ IT, simple.

I can say it not more directly: if you dislike certain forums, then DO NOT READ THEM.

I can see what you did, there, and I take your point but the ideas are not symmetrical: to continue the analogy of this being Bill's house and Avalon's members as guests within his house, it would not be sufficient to say 'if you dislike how somebody treats this house, divert your gaze', while saying 'if you insist on mistreating my house, please leave'. We cannot simply neglect what is happening here.


Seikou-kishi, I respect your opinion and your right to express it 100%. I for my part have never bitched I can assure you. I love reading here and learning here. But if something doesn't feel right I question it, always respectfully, I question many things, that's how I learn. I question people, their motives, their ideas, philosphies, intentions. I like to bounce off of people. I feel like I'm in a constant learning curve. I take nothing for granted.. When I was a little girl my brother used to call me "20 questions"- I would drive him nuts, the same at school, the same at university. It's me, but always respectful. I can't help feeling perhaps you started this thread because of what I wrote a short while ago in the "another member gone" thread. I did not post to upset the apple cart but simply to question in a healthy way. I'm sorry if you thought it was bitching. I can assure you it wasn't. We sit at our computers and read and write not merely words, but the thoughts coming from real people. It would be shallow not to in some small way care about these people whose words sometimes go around in our heads and resonate with us.

You're right, Amer, and nobody here is saying that there are things that shouldn't be questioned, but when that festers from simple question-asking into a constant background whir it's surely very different. Avalon is being pecked at from within and it's only because of Avalon's great tolerance that such an infection hasn't already been flushed out. The plentiful examples of tolerance, understanding and openness at Avalon do nothing to assuage the qualms of those who consider it censored, and I can only draw the conclusion that after so long these people do not want their qualms answered or their worries assured, but that they are solely intent on perpetuating the idea that this place is a Stalinist dictatorship.

Nobody seems to appreciate more than Bill when a person takes a reasoned and measured disagreement with a post he has made; it seems to me that he looks upon it as a chance to further elucidate his meaning. People choose not to see that, though, and it's disappointing. Bill has demonstrated his patience on numerous times, but it goes unnoticed because patience is, by necessity, less obvious than impatience. I feel deeply aggrieved to watch Bill slandered by people while maintaining his dignity. I often feel he is too patient.

Bouncing ideas off people, Amer, is absolutely great and something that is done frequently here. I'm sorry that people have confused genuine discussion with what has been going on on this forum in certain quarters, but such discussion is greatly appreciated here, and it is the same who scream censorship that try to blur the distinction between what they do and such discussion.

Back to topic, please. Seikou-Kishi's posts were articulate and intelligent. Lord Sid, you completely derailed this discussion. If you want to accuse me of being a racist, please start a new thread. :)
(But I will not participate.)

Tangri
9th May 2011, 21:59
If there’s one thing I can’t tolerate it is innuendo. If we are going to post things – post the whole bloody lot because this is unfair to all of us who invest time and energy in genuinely trying to understand .When we start to enter “white pride” “pro-white views” into the equation well then the debate takes a different turn for me. Perhaps I really am too slow on the uptake because #1 I didn’t entertain a genuine racist agenda here. Attaching a racist slur to Bill Ryan is quite ridiculous, and if I understood correctly Rob was calling into question the words we use without thinking of their weight-but not that Bill was racist in any way. And #2 I didn’t entertain the fact that Rob was coming from a “white pride” “pro-white view” background because these are also words that carry a certain amount of heavy duty weight with them.

So OnyxKnight please call a spade a spade, hinting at details serve only to confuse. Remember what weight words carry. I recall a pervious Avalon poster who is not a member anymore who continually posted comments “if you all knew what I know well then…..”It totally frustrated and angered me. It serves nothing. If the debate is not honest by all parties well then that is down-right two-faced. And I hate that .Just hate that. If we can’t be honest we are nothing.

Rant over.

If you are criticize your own kind it is not a racism act if you try to lower other race ,it is racism.
If you are not black , you may not call your African friend as a nigro(except you are Spanish and using your own word) . I can argue with anyone from my race to criticize my race but I will not accept any comment from different race is it correct?

Lord Sidious
9th May 2011, 22:01
Tactfully is a very subjective term.
What I call tactfull and what you call that could be very different.
You may recall that Bill and others have reacted far stronger than I have to people slandering them.
I wonder, why can they DEMAND an apology but I can't?
Is there a status difference?
Is it that some of you readers are reacting to what you THINK I have said and not what I actually did say?
And please, don't tell me that a fictitious drama is evidence of anything.
Would you agree that movies are usually based on reality and not reality itself?
I always stand behind what I say, unless I have made an error, I don't see how that is radical.
Not that you are saying that, I am just saying that is how my ways are seen.
Now, the thing is, some of you are taking this as Bill vs Me.
Why is it that it has to be like that?
Why can't it be that I am trying to help not just him, but you guys too, to see the error in the thinking here?
Yes, I was offended, but then I realised Bill delivered to me on a platter an opportunity.
A healing opportunity.
We know what has been going on for a little while here about people saying things that others have taken offense to and then demanded apologies for.
Well, here is the opportunity I present to all of you, seeing as I have to spell it out, none of you realised this.
The opportunity is to see how the people that slandered some of our members, according to the said members are in some cases, mirrors of the same here.
Do you not see that Bill has done the same thing?
And won't acknowledge that?
Even as he demands the others do and that they apologise?

Hi Sidious,

Fair point about tactful, being a subjective term.

I see that you feel Bill slandered you by referring to “white men” but as a white man myself, I just don’t feel that way. He probably should have said “some white men.” If he had used the word some, I think it would be hard to argue with the accuracy as what Bill said.

Look, as far as there being a double-standard, I basically agree with you that no one should be treated differently on this forum. But I’ve only been here for about a month, so I just don’t know if others have demanded an apology in the past under similar circumstances as you claim.

I was here though when members were banned a few weeks ago, and even though I haven’t posted about it yet, I wasn’t completely happy with how it was handled either.

So please don’t think this is me just rushing in to defend whoever is in charge of this forum. My reaction doesn’t have anything to do with that; I would have the same reaction no matter who you this pertained to.

When you say things like, “Don’t justify your statement;” “Be a man;” or “Stand behind what you wrote, don’t try to evade it;” you’re making commands that I don’t think are going to be very effective in getting someone to listen to you.

If you think he’s contradicting himself or applying a double-standard, then I think you’d be a lot more persuasive if you just said that and then provide evidence of where you think that happened.

Thanks for your input.
Why can't it just be some men?
Or some people?
The thing is, I like to think that I live up to what I believe.
Maybe I do, maybe I don't, that would be something you would have to ask people who know me, I wouldn't be a good witness on that.
I try not to set a standard for anyone else that I can't or won't keep myself.
You could be right that I could have chosen better words, I don't disagree with you there.
Sometimes it is necessary to use words that are stronger than you might normally use to get someones attention.

Lord Sidious
9th May 2011, 22:07
Enough, Lord Sid. You are way out of line.

Back to topic, please. Seikou-Kishi's posts were articulate and intelligent. Lord Sid, you completely derailed this discussion. If you want to accuse me of being a racist, please start a new thread. :)
(But I will not participate.)

I didn't call you a racist at any time, did I?
And you derailed this, not me, you just won't admit it.
I am actually trying to help you see something here.
You wanna dodge this, but that won't be happening.
I put it to you, that you have a standard for your ''guests'' and one for yourself.
You did to all white australians what you claimed people did to you, inelia, dennis, paul and others.
You want an apology from them, but you can't give me one?
Oh and by the way, YOU are out of line sir, not me.
All you have to do is admit your error, apologise, I will rep your post and we move on.
Is that fair enough or not?

Seikou-Kishi
9th May 2011, 22:09
Can we not just have a ceasefire? Bill and Sid, you're both intelligent, honourable people. Honourable men can differ.

Morgaine
9th May 2011, 22:11
Unfortunately, as with many online forums of a shall we say, a controversial nature, the freedom to espouse ones beliefs/inner thoughts can lead to grandstanding and battles of ego.
People can easily confuse the freedom such a forum allows them, with the opportunity to gain a higher level of popularity and the chance to attempt a "Moses Moment" by presenting their presumably jaw-dropping facts & unsubstantiated predictions. I find this so directly oppositional to what I need (what we all need perhaps) at this very important time on our Earth, that it is quite depressing. I for one am looking for kindred souls, mentors, like mindeds, teachers.
Our Earth is changing, rapidly. If we all look within ourselves, our souls, we can admit that we all feel something. A knowing, or even just a sense that we are being made aware of a change in the dynamic. Ask around, you will find most people are thinking the same.
As everyone here is clearly highly intelligent, and some are in possession of gifts and qualities that would be so useful and inspirational to all here, I think we perhaps could take a step back and reevaluate the purpose of our inclusion here. Racism (accidental or not), fear mongering and intellectual bickering is oh so very human nature I know, but isn't it time to bring our gifts to the table and to work together?
EDIT: I do not mean to insult anyone with my opinion, thank you everybody.

Lord Sidious
9th May 2011, 22:16
I am happy to work together Morgaine, that is the whole point.

Meadowlark
9th May 2011, 22:25
Can we not just have a ceasefire? Bill and Sid, you're both intelligent, honourable people. Honourable men can differ.

How about this for a compromise:

Bill says it would have been more precise to use the phrase “some white men” instead of just “white men.”

Sid admits some of his comments were probably over the top, and not the best way to make his point.

Ammit
9th May 2011, 22:32
Jesus, I dont believe this went on so long. 123 posts of battling because one person objected to other members being shocked at their friends here leaving. I know I objected to the initial comments, of which I still stand by my response, but dudes, lets leave it now and just say we cleared the air a little, we all need to do that at times.

With all that is going on with events at the moment we all need a little escape but lets get back on track and again become a community. Please guys....

If this gets beyond 130 posts, you can say good bye to me too.

seko
9th May 2011, 22:40
I am happy to work together Morgaine, that is the whole point.

thank you for the very long thread I did get what Lord Sid was saying, lets use our words carefully, before we say something. I will move on to another thread, to continue learning with all of you.

DeDukshyn
9th May 2011, 22:42
As much as I am trying to see your perspective here Sidous, (and I am, you should know that), I just don't think Bill's post could be interpreted as racist; I explained why I feel this in my previous posts. I get your the point you are making about generalizations, and that we shouldn't use them because the may be perceived as racist, but that is something that I think is a little bit more unique to you. I always feel I should never shy away from using my language in the most accurate way I believe it to be out of fear that someone may misinterpret my intentions. If they do, the onus is on them to address me, then up to me to set my intentions straight. Does this mean I should apologise? Personally, no, I don't think so. But your definition of integrity may say that is the way it will be for you. Either way, the important thing was that intentions get cleared. Did bill clear his intentions? Immediately.

Before you say "but that's my point!" (I can hear it in your head ;-), I will say that is very different from a (imaginary) situation where Bill attacked you personally, and say ... implied you were a racist for something you wrote that he mis-interpreted. That after trying to explain the mis-interpretation, he ignored you carried on about your implied racism for a few pages of a thread of a different topic. An apology would be much more warranted in a situation like that. MHO.

Amer
9th May 2011, 22:50
Rob we can apologise for intentionally hurting another person with our words, but if it was not my intention to hurt you in the first place I can be sorry that you feel hurt, but if I tell you sincerely that I did not intend to hurt you, that we have different interpretations - is it reasonable to ask me to apologise?

Lord Sidious
9th May 2011, 22:54
Jesus, I dont believe this went on so long. 123 posts of battling because one person objected to other members being shocked at their friends here leaving. I know I objected to the initial comments, of which I still stand by my response, but dudes, lets leave it now and just say we cleared the air a little, we all need to do that at times.

With all that is going on with events at the moment we all need a little escape but lets get back on track and again become a community. Please guys....

If this gets beyond 130 posts, you can say good bye to me too.

Please, don't go making hasty decisions.
Hang around, just because things get a bit heated doesn't mean that we should all bail out.


As much as I am trying to see your perspective here Sidous, (and I am, you should know that), I just don't think Bill's post could be interpreted as racist; I explained why I feel this in my previous posts. I get your the point you are making about generalizations, and that we shouldn't use them because the may be perceived as racist, but that is something that I think is a little bit more unique to you. I always feel I should never shy away from using my language in the most accurate way I believe it to be out of fear that someone may misinterpret my intentions. If they do, the onus is on them to address me, then up to me to set my intentions straight. Does this mean I should apologise? Personally, no, I don't think so. But your definition of integrity may say that is the way it will be for you. Either way, the important thing was that intentions get cleared. Did bill clear his intentions? Immediately.

Before you say "but that's my point!" (I can hear it in your head ;-), I will say that is very different from a (imaginary) situation where Bill attacked you personally, and say ... implied you were a racist for something you wrote that he mis-interpreted. That after trying to explain the mis-interpretation, he ignored you carried on about your implied racism for a few pages of a thread of a different topic. An apology would be much more warranted in a situation like that. MHO.

This is a point that we need to sort out.
We have an issue with posts on nexus and the effects of that.
We have the same sort of thing here now.
If we don't fix it, it will continue on.
Do you guys not realise that I am trying to help you all heal and get over this?

Amer
9th May 2011, 23:09
Do you guys not realise that I am trying to help you all heal and get over this?
That is noble and to be commended. And I do not believe that debating strongly means that we are not a united community anymore, what is more I believe it is part of what binds and makes a community stronger and we shouldn't be afraid of it. Starting on a path to peace must keep peace firmly centered as our objective and believe we can achieve it. But we have to start somewhere.
In the same way that you are hurt by Bill's statement I believe he is hurt/angry by you thinking he is a racist- you don't believe that do you?

NancyV
9th May 2011, 23:10
Enough, Lord Sid. You are way out of line.

Back to topic, please. Seikou-Kishi's posts were articulate and intelligent. Lord Sid, you completely derailed this discussion. If you want to accuse me of being a racist, please start a new thread. :)
(But I will not participate.)

I didn't call you a racist at any time, did I?
And you derailed this, not me, you just won't admit it.
I am actually trying to help you see something here.
You wanna dodge this, but that won't be happening.
I put it to you, that you have a standard for your ''guests'' and one for yourself.
You did to all white australians what you claimed people did to you, inelia, dennis, paul and others.
You want an apology from them, but you can't give me one?
Oh and by the way, YOU are out of line sir, not me.
All you have to do is admit your error, apologise, I will rep your post and we move on.
Is that fair enough or not?
That not only is not FAIR, it's bizarre. Looks like you are insisting on some sort of showdown and you're really pushing to get it. No matter how much I normally like your posts, you're WAY out of line here and I would suggest that you drop it.


Lord Sidious: This is a point that we need to sort out.
We have an issue with posts on nexus and the effects of that.
We have the same sort of thing here now.
If we don't fix it, it will continue on.
Do you guys not realise that I am trying to help you all heal and get over this?

Helpful?? Maybe from your perspective but not from mine. You've chosen a very weak example and it's a HUGE stretch trying to compare Bill's innocent (and FACTUAL) remark with the vitriol spewed on Nexus about him and Inelia and Avalon. Whatever lesson you think you're teaching is getting lost because of your tactics.

Nancy

Ammit
9th May 2011, 23:13
**** this, beam me up scotty. Bye all and blessings with your future endeavours. Be at peace and be safe.x

jjl
9th May 2011, 23:15
I used to work in a little working class tavern in NYC west side. All the patrons hated the owner. Came in there every day to drink and gossip about how much they disrespected the owner. But at least they bought drinks for the privlidge.

Ilie Pandia
9th May 2011, 23:19
I have created this new thread to allow discussion to continue without disrupting the original thread (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?20094-Membership-on-the-forum) started by Seikou-Kishi.

Lord Sidious
10th May 2011, 00:40
Do you guys not realise that I am trying to help you all heal and get over this?
That is noble and to be commended. And I do not believe that debating strongly means that we are not a united community anymore, what is more I believe it is part of what binds and makes a community stronger and we shouldn't be afraid of it. Starting on a path to peace must keep peace firmly centered as our objective and believe we can achieve it. But we have to start somewhere.
In the same way that you are hurt by Bill's statement I believe he is hurt/angry by you thinking he is a racist- you don't believe that do you?

I never said he was a racist, I know what the word means and I bet the majority of you don't.
I said he made a statement that was racist, that isn't the same thing.
And I did also say that I believe him when he said he meant something different with those words, that isn't what I was trying to get him to confront.
What we write/say and what we mean can be very different and THAT is a major issue we are having here and on nexus.
We need to deal with this issue and it isn't being dealt with, so I am trying to force that issue.
I am prepared to risk my account here being banned so that we can move forward.
That is for one reason and one reason alone, I care.
I am rocking the boat and making you nuggets seasick to try and get you well out of your comfort zones so that you can then assess the situation and deal with it.
It has been pointed out to me by one of the mods, who cared enough about me, bill and the forum to spend over an hour and a half of his time to try and sort this out.
It now seems that altough what I am doing is correct in my view, I have used the wrong tactic with bill as he has already been through the wringer in a way with the very issue that I was trying to force.
So it is like shell shock in a way and that would make his reaction different to the one I wanted.
What disappoints me is that many of the members just jumped on the bandwagon without thinking what was going on with me.
I do these things to get stubborn people out of their comfort zones into the learning zone.
Let me spell this out so that we are all on the same page.
When you go through detox, you will end up with all the toxins being dislodged from the organs and body fat where they are and then loose in the blood to go out through the excretion system for disposal.
When this happens, you will get sick, very sick if you have a lot of toxins in your system.
It is a necessary stage that you HAVE to go through to detox and you can't do it without this phase.
This is similar to what I am trying to do with you lot.
In future, I would ask you to try and figure out what I am doing if it is not apparent to you.
Many of you posting in the thread are still reacting from your conditioning and fighting me even as I detox you.
Nuggets, the lot of ya. :p
And bill is the biggest nugget of the lot, maybe even a double nugget.
Me using the wrong tactic at the wrong time MAY qualify my approach as nuggetry, but that is still only an allegation. ;)






Enough, Lord Sid. You are way out of line.

Back to topic, please. Seikou-Kishi's posts were articulate and intelligent. Lord Sid, you completely derailed this discussion. If you want to accuse me of being a racist, please start a new thread. :)
(But I will not participate.)

I didn't call you a racist at any time, did I?
And you derailed this, not me, you just won't admit it.
I am actually trying to help you see something here.
You wanna dodge this, but that won't be happening.
I put it to you, that you have a standard for your ''guests'' and one for yourself.
You did to all white australians what you claimed people did to you, inelia, dennis, paul and others.
You want an apology from them, but you can't give me one?
Oh and by the way, YOU are out of line sir, not me.
All you have to do is admit your error, apologise, I will rep your post and we move on.
Is that fair enough or not?
That not only is not FAIR, it's bizarre. Looks like you are insisting on some sort of showdown and you're really pushing to get it. No matter how much I normally like your posts, you're WAY out of line here and I would suggest that you drop it.


Lord Sidious: This is a point that we need to sort out.
We have an issue with posts on nexus and the effects of that.
We have the same sort of thing here now.
If we don't fix it, it will continue on.
Do you guys not realise that I am trying to help you all heal and get over this?

Helpful?? Maybe from your perspective but not from mine. You've chosen a very weak example and it's a HUGE stretch trying to compare Bill's innocent (and FACTUAL) remark with the vitriol spewed on Nexus about him and Inelia and Avalon. Whatever lesson you think you're teaching is getting lost because of your tactics.

Nancy

The message was not received correctly with you, that is for sure, I can say that what I meant and what you think I meant are not the same.
I can also say that I think you are fighting the detox and denying that you have toxins.
But you do, we all do, even if they are different ones to each others.


**** this, beam me up scotty. Bye all and blessings with your future endeavours. Be at peace and be safe.x

Oh no you don't nugget, there are no lifeboats left, get back here. :p


I used to work in a little working class tavern in NYC west side. All the patrons hated the owner. Came in there every day to drink and gossip about how much they disrespected the owner. But at least they bought drinks for the privlidge.

Well, I am not entirely sure of what you mean, but I take it as you think I am hanging crap on bill, which isn't what I am doing.
But that is ok, I am not offended at your opinion.

Now, by way of compromise, I will apologise to bill for using shock tactics on him if he will meet me half way and apologise for his statement.
After that, we can get back to business of detoxing you avalonuggets.

Karma Ninja
10th May 2011, 00:54
There is some sensitivity being displayed here that is perhaps misplaced. I read this thread in it's original form and was shocked to see the conversation degrade into a silly and childish debate about one person's interpretation of Bills comments. I found it absurd that someone could take such offense to an innocuous comment. The point Bill was trying to make was obvious and the rebuttal was obvious in it's nature as well. This thread was something that saddened me and reminded me of why I was hesitant to join in the first place.

In my view, there is a long understood and accepted history of foreign countries invading, murdering and displacing a lands native people. These crimes against humanity have left scars that are impossible to erase without a concerted effort from the future generations of both sides to acknowledge past transgressions and to collectively agree to move forward and to forgive the past. If a member of the future generation refuses or does not wish to accept blame or show regret or feel responsible for the crimes of the past than that is their prerogative. They should not be held accountable. They must also accept that they can never be part of the solution and only will be seen as wanting to ignore the past. To the people who suffered, the ones who refuse to accept our ancestors crimes will always be part of the problem. Acknowledging and learning from the past is essential to a societies growth. I think Bills comment reflected this knowledge.

Those who suffered most will have a hard time moving on if they feel the current generation simply wants to sweep the crimes of the past under the rug. I am part Japanese Canadian and part British Canadian. My father was born in a Japanese internment camp during the second world war. My grandparents, aunts and uncles were treated horribly, stripped of their rights and property and robbed of their dignity. There were some who could never forgive and never moved on. My family made it a goal to forgive the government for what happened, forgive the people for spitting on and beating us up, forgive them for following what a society saw as acceptable at the time. As time went on, Canadian people moved on and eventually, when we looked back at what happened in the 40's, we saw that a horrible wrong had been committed. The Canadian government apologized and offered compensation for what happened. My father made it clear that we must accept the apology and embrace our neighbours. Our neighbours embraced us back. It led to him falling in love with a British Canadian woman and my mother learned it was possible to love him back. It led to me being born. We offered no resistance to the apology and we are now a valuable thread in the Canadian tapestry. This took decades and some still have not fully accepted the past or chosen to learn ALL of the lessons that come with it. Those who refuse are on both sides. They hold an anger in their souls that keeps them from completely opening their hearts and minds. Today I am proud to be a Canadian. I am proud to be my father and mothers son.

On a separate note, I share the shame of the white people who know the horrible crimes the British and French settlers committed against our Native people. Many Native Canadians or Indigenous people still are not willing to forgive and move on. Many will never be able to. Alcohol, drugs and a new monetary system have left our Native people far from where they were when the settlers first arrived. Many Native people want to move on but there are also lots of Canadians who talk about the 'lazy and welfare dependent Native people who pay no taxes and live off of this country'. (This is not how I feel but merely a sample of the comments I hear all the time) I think both sides have some forgiving to do and could learn more from each other than can be imagined. I hold faith that the divide will be conquered and we will all learn to live peacefully. I want to see our Native Canadians celebrated for their rich and beautiful history like they were during the last Winter Olympics. I have the utmost faith that it will happen.

Generalizations are just that, general and not pointed. They shouldn't be interpreted as such in order to further ones own beliefs. Aboriginals...white men...asian people...black people...whatever. No apologies are needed here only cooler heads and a dedication to mature, thoughtful discussion.

Peace as always. You are all my brothers and sisters. We are here for a reason.

Agape
10th May 2011, 01:02
It's an old atavism coming from times when people lived scattered over the planet, lived isolated from each group and tribe for centuries and millenia ,

developed advanced and primitive cultures who each considered themselves the only true people .

With all their delicate believe systems and social hierarchies, they were the gods of this planet ..

Some evolved faster than the others, some have receded, some vanished forever without trace,
some learned to survive in drastic climatic conditions and the sun has burned their faces and colored their eyes

with rays of Light.


There were good people of peace and cruel barbarians . They had to learn about each other one day ..


and the big rape of culture was ensued, advances destroyed and the black kings took over the rule .


It's still difficult getting rid of them all ...



How do I know. You know I know. It's easy to harm the precision and the focus of human mind, we are all sentient beings means we are all vulnerable. And we are all unique.

Please realize that we are not the creators of life and no one else is, no paternal or maternal figure in the Universe that has created you exists.

We have not created this hell of a planet .


The only thing we can do about it is have hearts. Speak truth . Respect your own being so you don't have to ask others to do it for you..



With kindest regards



:angel:

000
10th May 2011, 01:09
On the OP's forest/nature comment.

Nature is self-moderating and symbiotic. It is totally free and thus totally self-responsible. It was here long before beings in flesh suits walked amongst it.

Nature does not need moderators. Beings in flesh suits here on Earth seem to, because they have created such a paradigm in which they are not willing to take self-responsibility and thus give permission to be moderated.

The price for a quantity of freedom is payed for with the same quantity of responsibility.
The price for the quality of freedom is payed for with the same quality of responsibility.

Over and Out. :washing:

Paul
10th May 2011, 01:13
Many of you posting in the thread are still reacting from your conditioning and fighting me even as I detox you.
Just because we are having convulsions doesn't necessarily mean we are going through the detox necessary to regain some of health.

One actually has to understand the particular disease, addiction or poisoning mechanism in play to know if the convulsions are to be worked through, or taken as a sign of something to avoid.

If we had been sitting calmly over a beer a day ago, Lord Sidious, discussing the health (or lack thereof) of Project Avalon, how would you have described it?

I take it from what you've said so far today, you would have found evidence of embedded poisons, that were still in need of being worked out, if we are to get healthier.

Stepping back from today, from who said what, what they meant by that, and who owes who an apology, can you describe what you see here, what your concerns are?

Paul
10th May 2011, 01:17
Nature is self-moderating and symbiotic.
Our bodies have a complex immune system, engaged in an elaborate and ever changing discernment of what's us, what's friendly other (e.g. gut bacteria) and what's hostile other.

Without that, we cannot survive outside of a sterile bubble for more than a few days or weeks.

Project Avalon is not "nature" in the aggregate. It is a body, at some level. As such, it requires its immune and other health support mechanisms.

000
10th May 2011, 01:20
Our bodies have a complex immune system, engaged in an elaborate and ever changing discernment of what's us, what's friendly other (e.g. gut bacteria) and what's hostile other.

Without that, we cannot survive outside of a sterile bubble for more than a few days or weeks.

Project Avalon is not "nature" in the aggregate. It is a body, at some level. As such, it requires its immune and other health support mechanisms.

That kind of reinforces what I have written. Note that I did not suggest Avalon was nature.

Lord Sidious
10th May 2011, 01:28
There is some sensitivity being displayed here that is perhaps misplaced. I read this thread in it's original form and was shocked to see the conversation degrade into a silly and childish debate about one person's interpretation of Bills comments. I found it absurd that someone could take such offense to an innocuous comment. The point Bill was trying to make was obvious and the rebuttal was obvious in it's nature as well. This thread was something that saddened me and reminded me of why I was hesitant to join in the first place.

In my view, there is a long understood and accepted history of foreign countries invading, murdering and displacing a lands native people. These crimes against humanity have left scars that are impossible to erase without a concerted effort from the future generations of both sides to acknowledge past transgressions and to collectively agree to move forward and to forgive the past. If a member of the future generation refuses or does not wish to accept blame or show regret or feel responsible for the crimes of the past than that is their prerogative. They should not be held accountable. They must also accept that they can never be part of the solution and only will be seen as wanting to ignore the past. To the people who suffered, the ones who refuse to accept our ancestors crimes will always be part of the problem. Acknowledging and learning from the past is essential to a societies growth. I think Bills comment reflected this knowledge.

Those who suffered most will have a hard time moving on if they feel the current generation simply wants to sweep the crimes of the past under the rug. I am part Japanese Canadian and part British Canadian. My father was born in a Japanese internment camp during the second world war. My grandparents, aunts and uncles were treated horribly, stripped of their rights and property and robbed of their dignity. There were some who could never forgive and never moved on. My family made it a goal to forgive the government for what happened, forgive the people for spitting on and beating us up, forgive them for following what a society saw as acceptable at the time. As time went on, Canadian people moved on and eventually, when we looked back at what happened in the 40's, we saw that a horrible wrong had been committed. The Canadian government apologized and offered compensation for what happened. My father made it clear that we must accept the apology and embrace our neighbours. Our neighbours embraced us back. It led to him falling in love with a British Canadian woman and my mother learned it was possible to love him back. It led to me being born. We offered no resistance to the apology and we are now a valuable thread in the Canadian tapestry. This took decades and some still have not fully accepted the past or chosen to learn ALL of the lessons that come with it. Those who refuse are on both sides. They hold an anger in their souls that keeps them from completely opening their hearts and minds. Today I am proud to be a Canadian. I am proud to be my father and mothers son.

On a separate note, I share the shame of the white people who know the horrible crimes the British and French settlers committed against our Native people. Many Native Canadians or Indigenous people still are not willing to forgive and move on. Many will never be able to. Alcohol, drugs and a new monetary system have left our Native people far from where they were when the settlers first arrived. Many Native people want to move on but there are also lots of Canadians who talk about the 'lazy and welfare dependent Native people who pay no taxes and live off of this country'. (This is not how I feel but merely a sample of the comments I hear all the time) I think both sides have some forgiving to do and could learn more from each other than can be imagined. I hold faith that the divide will be conquered and we will all learn to live peacefully. I want to see our Native Canadians celebrated for their rich and beautiful history like they were during the last Winter Olympics. I have the utmost faith that it will happen.

Generalizations are just that, general and not pointed. They shouldn't be interpreted as such in order to further ones own beliefs. Aboriginals...white men...asian people...black people...whatever. No apologies are needed here only cooler heads and a dedication to mature, thoughtful discussion.

Peace as always. You are all my brothers and sisters. We are here for a reason.

With all due respect to your post, the reason that people can't move on is they don't know what they are trying to move on from.
Your post is exactly what I was talking about.
As an example, the middle east will NEVER have peace.
NEVER.
Until we let go of this paradigm of racism/guilt and realise it is simply a control mechanism.
Until we do that, we are wasting our time, they are pulling our strings.



Many of you posting in the thread are still reacting from your conditioning and fighting me even as I detox you.
Just because we are having convulsions doesn't necessarily mean we are going through the detox necessary to regain some of health.

One actually has to understand the particular disease, addiction or poisoning mechanism in play to know if the convulsions are to be worked through, or taken as a sign of something to avoid.

If we had been sitting calmly over a beer a day ago, Lord Sidious, discussing the health (or lack thereof) of Project Avalon, how would you have described it?

I take it from what you've said so far today, you would have found evidence of embedded poisons, that were still in need of being worked out, if we are to get healthier.

Stepping back from today, from who said what, what they meant by that, and who owes who an apology, can you describe what you see here, what your concerns are?

That is an excellent question Paul.
Now for the answers and the next round of offense.
Avalon is ill, very, very ill.
This has been evident for a long time.
First we had camelot, that split.
Then we had camelot and avalon.
Avalon split and now we have nexus.
Do we have to have another split before we sit down and wonder what is going on?
How many times do we have to go down to the well before we believe the well is empty?
You know why I rock the boat?
I care.
If I did not, I wouldn't bother.
I have friends on nexus, but I am not a member.
I am still here.
Bill is part of the problem.
Now I hear you all getting your backs up again, because I am telling the truth.
That doesn't mean he is bad, it simply means he is part of the problem.
As such he HAS to be part of the solution too, or it won't be solved and all this work is wasted.
I think part of the problem is that we are all on different wavelengths and have different beliefs.
I made mistakes in this thread and I apologised and made it right.
Bill for some reason struggles with that.
Until he masters this, he will not be the master of his own destiny, he will react to other people jerking his chain.
That isn't good for him, me, you, avalon, nexus, camelot.
If I am the only one here that can see that and will risk my account to tell you this, so be it.
My advice is to fix this now, while we can before it causes yet another split.
I don't have all the answers, but I am willing to find them.

Teakai
10th May 2011, 01:31
Let me say this.
I believe Bill.
What he wrote, is not necessarily what he meant, that is the problem.
We need to choose our words carefully, that is what law is all about.
All I am asking for is for him to admit he wrote different to what he meant, apologise and we all move on.
If I changed his statement to something less politically correct, I could and probably would get banned.
Why is it ok to bash whites in Australia, but not anyone else?
What have we done to deserve that?

But...isn't it true? When the whites came to Australia they totally scr*wed up everything.
But when it's all boiled down to the nitty gritty, your average white people were/are just as much victims to the system as the black people.

Teakai
10th May 2011, 01:40
Race. In the beginning it was the human race, and in the end it was the human race. All these labels we keep applying to particular members of the human race needs to stop in order for the human race to move on. When we finally get THIS clue we are going to find that there is no color that seperates the true light that resides within us all.

Agreed. It's not at all the colour - that's just an easy identifier- it's more the culture and the attatchments one holds in regard to it that are doing the damage. In regard to Australian one culture destroyed another.
They were totally incompatible.
One culture knew nothing of ownership while the other was all about ownership. One culture believed they belonged to the land, the other believed the land belonged to them.
It was always doomed with such a mindset.

Lord Sidious
10th May 2011, 01:48
Let me say this.
I believe Bill.
What he wrote, is not necessarily what he meant, that is the problem.
We need to choose our words carefully, that is what law is all about.
All I am asking for is for him to admit he wrote different to what he meant, apologise and we all move on.
If I changed his statement to something less politically correct, I could and probably would get banned.
Why is it ok to bash whites in Australia, but not anyone else?
What have we done to deserve that?

But...isn't it true? When the whites came to Australia they totally scr*wed up everything.
But when it's all boiled down to the nitty gritty, your average white people were/are just as much victims to the system as the black people.

We are told that, but is it true?
Did the whites really screw the nation up? How much is poticially correct rubbish?
We will never know, until we kill this racism madness.
Political correctness is like a gastic band for the intellect.



Race. In the beginning it was the human race, and in the end it was the human race. All these labels we keep applying to particular members of the human race needs to stop in order for the human race to move on. When we finally get THIS clue we are going to find that there is no color that seperates the true light that resides within us all.

Agreed. It's not at all the colour - that's just an easy identifier- it's more the culture and the attatchments one holds in regard to it that are doing the damage. In regard to Australian one culture destroyed another.
They were totally incompatible.
One culture knew nothing of ownership while the other was all about ownership. One culture believed they belonged to the land, the other believed the land belonged to them.
It was always doomed with such a mindset.

And you proved my point, it is not about skin colour, it is all about economics/money.
The system created this to play divide and conquer and this very thread is evidence that not only does it work, it is still working, even here where we think we are more ''advanced'' than others.
But are we?

Davidallany
10th May 2011, 02:04
The truth is it doesn't matter to what people or culture one belongs, for now we are humans living on Earth in the narrow sense of things, as none physical entities temporarily occupying container called bodies. All men are equally my brothers and all women are equally my sisters. Why can't we look at all people with the same feeling? We must not forget that we are existing in a scenario as though watching a movie, it is as solid as dreams are. And some dreams appear really solid. Why do we feel pain if our so called relatives are attacked or our so called countries are destroyed? why don't we feel the same pain if a bird's nest is destroyed? the ego self believes the five senses and will not let go of associations, mine and me, because it fears losing part of it's identity, a sense of something being taken away from it, but death always proofs it wrong. Where all identifying breaks apart, where is the pride? where is mine and me? my victories and defeats? We must live in friendship and look beyond the five senses, bringing back love and trust, cooperating; not competing, slowly bringing ourselves to the now and abiding there free of delusions.
It is possible, for we are it. Where did my words come from? if I believe they are mine like most people outside of Avalon do then I am associating with the self and adding to it's affirmation of me and mine. If the self relaxes though and allow the higher self to act through it, then we act without attachment to the goals,we simply allow acting in the now and observe it without association.

cloud9
10th May 2011, 02:09
Dear Lord,
don't you think is it amazing what some of us do just for being right? Why is it so important to you?
This thread has been derailed and it's now a waste of time just because you need to right, even when you could be wrong....

Flash
10th May 2011, 02:14
Well I have been reading all the posts.

Quite naively in his writing for Bill, he obviously did not mean any harm, even if some was done, much inadvertently and not on the racism aspect, imho, but on the separativeness programmation we have been ingrained with. It is absolutely pervasive, frequent and we don't see its pervasiveness usually.

Quite steady in his interventions Lord `Sidious, while caring for getting down the victim mentality and getting down the separativeness humans always use, even in every day language (yes, separativeness is that pernicious and even if Bill did not mean harm, he was well within the program parameters, which we are all in quite often).

Also quite steady Lord Sidious in his desire to improve Avalon altogether, even if the means may seem drastics to some.

You know, separativeness is everywhere, and half humanity has deeply suffered from it for milleniums, over and above all the colonisations, wars, and destruction every single people (race or group) had inflicted on this planet (think Gengis Khan, think the Japanese in China, think the Russian in Georgia, think the Kmer Rouge in Cambodia, think Kenya, think Yougoslavia, think the Aztecs with other tribes around all killed or assimilated). The white man does not have the monopoly on racism and destruction. The full half of humanity that were litterally ostracised and pushed down for milleniums are women. So while we are at it, are we going to reproach it to white men again?

I am a woman, I come from a subgroup ethnically because of the language and culture, I have been segregated as a woman (the glass ceiling in corporations is very thick), as a French Canadian (sorry for my fellow Canadian, but you are tough when we are in your provinces), as a white while living in Mexico (and around some blacks in Montreal), and as an American while in Turkey, and as a Catholic in Southern US. The worst being the women stuff (not the race), it still leaves me speechless sometimes. And now age discrimination is around the corner.

To me, all that is separativeness - I usually come through it even if disagreable and I understand where it is from. And yes, our language carries it, verbally and through pictures it makes in our brains.

I propose the following: when we see this separativeness thinking here on Avalon, we gently remind our fellow Avalonians how difficult it is for some and how destructive this programmation is. Why not helping each other see the light. AND LETS GET RID OF THE VICTIM ARCHETYPE PLEASE. We are all equal, all one.

thanks for reading, my speech is over,
Flash

Lord Sidious
10th May 2011, 02:17
Dear Lord,
don't you think is it amazing what some of us do just for being right? Why is it so important to you?
This thread has been derailed and it's now a waste of time just because you need to right, even when you could be wrong....

Why do you assume that I need to be right?
Where did that come from?
And this thread isn't derailed anymore, this is split.

Davidallany
10th May 2011, 02:18
Dear Lord,
don't you think is it amazing what some of us do just for being right? Why is it so important to you?
This thread has been derailed and it's now a waste of time just because you need to right, even when you could be wrong....

Is time so important that you are willing to hurl stones at your brother Human? nothing is worth hurting a creature. There is no need to to feel guilty, there is a need to calm, breath and smile. That's it :)

Mike
10th May 2011, 02:18
Siddious...wow. that's all i can say. wow. i've never seen someone try so hard to be offended in my life. at best your arguments are bizarre, self indulgent over-dramatics. at worst they are the deliberate first steps toward forum suicide - an attempt to play hero before joining your friends at Nexus.

there is a disturbing trend developing here lately, a variation on the ol David Icke problem-reaction-solution paradigm. it goes something like this...

problem:occurs when someone takes something Bill/Inelia says/does and spins the sh#t out of it in order to create an intended slanderous effect.

reaction: spinner indulges in phony indignation and victimhood.

solution: the solution or intended result is to nurture a climate of victimhood in order to justify the inevitable mud slinging towards Bill or Inelia, or lately to give would be martyr'd forum hero's enough contrived ammunition to whine and cry about over at Nexus. here's the catch 22: once the spinner is called out in the form of a vacation or banishment, they cry "censorship" or witchhunt" and the whole cycle repeats itself. its a self perpetuating rhythm of madness - one that some are consciously and unconsciously encouraging.

Siddious you brought up programming - aren't we programmed to be "offended". you can't turn on a tv without someone being "outraged" over so and so's comments. inevitably, someone "demands an apology"- an empty, meaningless request that is usually followed by an equally meaningless "statement" by the publicist...errr...offender. its a tiresome formula that resolves nothing and only serves to buff the glossy image of the politically correct.

look, if you're trying to get banned, please spare us the pageantry and exit stage left. if not, please get back to what you do best: posting interesting information with wit and intelligence.

sepia
10th May 2011, 02:21
You know why I rock the boat?
I care.
If I did not, I wouldn't bother.

Lord Sid

I have highest respect from the discussion you're leading here,
how you're using your intelligence
to clarify principles that are beyond opinions
your courage and consequence to go all the way.

Clarity is an instrument of love.

Sincerely, Sepia

NancyV
10th May 2011, 02:23
Do you guys not realise that I am trying to help you all heal and get over this?
There you go generalizing and putting all of "you guys" into the same category. Speaking for myself I don't need to get over anything or heal from anything, but thanks for thinking you're helping.


Lord Sidious: I never said he was a racist, I know what the word means and I bet the majority of you don't. I said he made a statement that was racist, that isn't the same thing. And I did also say that I believe him when he said he meant something different with those words, that isn't what I was trying to get him to confront. What we write/say and what we mean can be very different and THAT is a major issue we are having here and on nexus.
The issues are so different that they can't begin to compare. If I felt like taking the time I would put Bill's innocuous statement on one side then on the other side I would put all the nasty and vicious personal attacks posted on NEXUS. Then we could see how they balance. What Bill meant was most likely not much different from what he said. Maybe a wee tiny little minuscule slight nuance of a difference but you pretended that it was a HUGELY offensive statement in order to further your teaching agenda. That's another reason it won't work. Your examples must make sense in order for a lesson to be learned. They can't be pretend issues or magnified all out of proportion or too many will not fall into the trap of learning what you're attempting to teach.


Lord Sidious:...It is a necessary stage that you HAVE to go through to detox and you can't do it without this phase. This is similar to what I am trying to do with you lot. In future, I would ask you to try and figure out what I am doing if it is not apparent to you. Many of you posting in the thread are still reacting from your conditioning and fighting me even as I detox you.
So this is sort of like being handcuffed and having a forced enema? Yeah, I had a kung fu teacher like that, a really nasty old man. Unfortunately those tactics never work with me and he finally gave up using them and we ended up friends. I would suspect those tactics also don't work with Bill, but that's just a guess. :p


Lord Sidious: Nuggets, the lot of ya. :p
And bill is the biggest nugget of the lot, maybe even a double nugget.
Me using the wrong tactic at the wrong time MAY qualify my approach as nuggetry, but that is still only an allegation. ;)

Effective tactics must have correct timing and use valid tools/examples which cannot be so easily rejected by so many you are wanting to teach. So I do "allege" that the tactics were wrong and the timing was off. But I will give you an A+ for effort. Even a very evolved teacher can often learn something, believe it or not.


Lord Sidious: The message was not received correctly with you, that is for sure, I can say that what I meant and what you think I meant are not the same. I can also say that I think you are fighting the detox and denying that you have toxins. But you do, we all do, even if they are different ones to each others.
Yes you are correct. After many years of one type of detox or another I can now say I LOVE my remaining toxins and am quite comfortable in our symbiotic relationship. Heck, just being alive in the 3D world is toxic, but the only cure for that is death. So I will remain happily swimming around in this toxic stew. Thanks for trying to teach us a lesson in your own inimitable style. It was greatly appreciated and quite entertaining.

Nancy :hug:

Lord Sidious
10th May 2011, 02:24
Siddious...wow. that's all i can say. wow. i've never seen someone try so hard to be offended in my life. at best your arguments are bizarre, self indulgent over-dramatics. at worst they are the deliberate first steps toward forum suicide - an attempt to play hero before joining your friends at Nexus.

there is a disturbing trend developing here lately, a variation on the ol David Icke problem-reaction-solution paradigm. it goes something like this...

problem:occurs when someone takes something Bill/Inelia says/does and spins the sh#t out of it in order to create an intended slanderous effect.

reaction: spinner indulges in phony indignation and victimhood.

solution: the solution or intended result is to nurture a climate of victimhood in order to justify the inevitable mud slinging towards Bill or Inelia, or lately to give would be martyr'd forum hero's enough contrived ammunition to whine and cry about over at Nexus. here's the catch 22: once the spinner is called out in the form of a vacation or banishment, they cry "censorship" or witchhunt" and the whole cycle repeats itself. its a self perpetuating rhythm of madness - one that some are consciously and unconsciously encouraging.

Siddious you brought up programming - aren't we programmed to be "offended". you can't turn on a tv without someone being "outraged" over so and so's comments. inevitably, someone "demands an apology"- an empty, meaningless request that is usually followed by an equally meaningless "statement" by the publicist...errr...offender. its a tiresome formula that resolves nothing and only serves to buff the glossy image of the politically correct.

look, if you're trying to get banned, please spare us the pageantry and exit stage left. if not, please get back to what you do best: posting interesting information with wit and intelligence.

By all means, take this as you wish, that is your right.
You attribute things to me that I didn't intend, that is about you, not me.
I am not a member at nexus and I don't forsee me joining, this isn't about me, this is about bill and avalon.
Can't you see that?



Do you guys not realise that I am trying to help you all heal and get over this?
There you go generalizing and putting all of "you guys" into the same category. Speaking for myself I don't need to get over anything or heal from anything, but thanks for thinking you're helping.


Lord Sidious: I never said he was a racist, I know what the word means and I bet the majority of you don't. I said he made a statement that was racist, that isn't the same thing. And I did also say that I believe him when he said he meant something different with those words, that isn't what I was trying to get him to confront. What we write/say and what we mean can be very different and THAT is a major issue we are having here and on nexus.
The issues are so different that they can't begin to compare. If I felt like taking the time I would put Bill's innocuous statement on one side then on the other side I would put all the nasty and vicious personal attacks posted on NEXUS. Then we could see how they balance. What Bill meant was most likely not much different from what he said. Maybe a wee tiny little minuscule slight nuance of a difference but you pretended that it was a HUGELY offensive statement in order to further your teaching agenda. That's another reason it won't work. Your examples must make sense in order for a lesson to be learned. They can't be pretend issues or magnified all out of proportion or too many will not fall into the trap of learning what you're attempting to teach.


Lord Sidious:...It is a necessary stage that you HAVE to go through to detox and you can't do it without this phase. This is similar to what I am trying to do with you lot. In future, I would ask you to try and figure out what I am doing if it is not apparent to you. Many of you posting in the thread are still reacting from your conditioning and fighting me even as I detox you.
So this is sort of like being handcuffed and having a forced enema? Yeah, I had a kung fu teacher like that, a really nasty old man. Unfortunately those tactics never work with me and he finally gave up using them and we ended up friends. I would suspect those tactics also don't work with Bill, but that's just a guess. :p


Lord Sidious: Nuggets, the lot of ya. :p
And bill is the biggest nugget of the lot, maybe even a double nugget.
Me using the wrong tactic at the wrong time MAY qualify my approach as nuggetry, but that is still only an allegation. ;)

Effective tactics must have correct timing and use valid tools/examples which cannot be so easily rejected by so many you are wanting to teach. So I do "allege" that the tactics were wrong and the timing was off. But I will give you an A+ for effort. Even a very evolved teacher can often learn something, believe it or not.


Lord Sidious: The message was not received correctly with you, that is for sure, I can say that what I meant and what you think I meant are not the same. I can also say that I think you are fighting the detox and denying that you have toxins. But you do, we all do, even if they are different ones to each others.
Yes you are correct. After many years of one type of detox or another I can now say I LOVE my remaining toxins and am quite comfortable in our symbiotic relationship. Heck, just being alive in the 3D world is toxic, but the only cure for that is death. So I will remain happily swimming around in this toxic stew. Thanks for trying to teach us a lesson in your own inimitable style. It was greatly appreciated and quite entertaining.

Nancy :hug:

Same for you, you can take my posts any way you wish, that is your right.
You can even attack me for it, I am not going to attack you back.
This isn't about rep or that rubbish, this is about the future.
Remember how some of us think there is something coming?
How do we prepare and lead others if we can't lead ourselves?

Carmody
10th May 2011, 02:28
sid, you've derailed this thread long enough. Give it up.

To clarify, I'm as about as white as it is possible to be.

French, scottish, english, german, danish, russian -Polish. (and a few sprinkles of other bits) I'm as white as the driven snow. My ass squeaks when I walk.

I'm not even remotely offended or even noticing how Bill wrote that.

Lord Sidious
10th May 2011, 02:32
sid, you've derailed this thread long enough. Give it up.

Sorry, but you don't even read the thread.
This is a different thread now, specifically for this.
Could you guys please get your facts straight first, then post?
So now you say you aren't offended, I am happy for you.
What does that have to do with my posts?

Davidallany
10th May 2011, 02:34
an attempt to play hero before joining your friends at Nexus.

look, if you're trying to get banned, please spare us the pageantry and exit stage left

Please brother, this is not helping at all, adding wood to the fire, to what end? let's move on in the spirit of friendship and peace. Here is to peace.
fSyhJ7hmxWQ&feature=fvst:focus:

Lord Sidious
10th May 2011, 02:36
So the solution to the problem is shoot the messenger?
Interesting.

Carmody
10th May 2011, 02:37
I edited my post, sid. :p

as for the rest, if I ever get to your side of the globe, we'll go out for a beer.

Lord Sidious
10th May 2011, 02:38
I edited my post, sid. :p

as for the rest, if I ever get to your side of the globe, we'll go out for a beer.

Only if it is newkie brown.

sepia
10th May 2011, 02:39
I edited my post, sid. :p

as for the rest, if I ever get to your side of the globe, we'll go out for a beer.

:) Good idea.

Rob - you made many people think - that's probably the best result possible -

the seed is put into the ground - it takes time to grow.

Maybe it's the right moment to brush the dust from the clothes and leave the battleground.

I hope you all find peace in your hearts.

Love, Sepia

Karma Ninja
10th May 2011, 02:40
There is some sensitivity being displayed here that is perhaps misplaced. I read this thread in it's original form and was shocked to see the conversation degrade into a silly and childish debate about one person's interpretation of Bills comments. I found it absurd that someone could take such offense to an innocuous comment. The point Bill was trying to make was obvious and the rebuttal was obvious in it's nature as well. This thread was something that saddened me and reminded me of why I was hesitant to join in the first place.

In my view, there is a long understood and accepted history of foreign countries invading, murdering and displacing a lands native people. These crimes against humanity have left scars that are impossible to erase without a concerted effort from the future generations of both sides to acknowledge past transgressions and to collectively agree to move forward and to forgive the past. If a member of the future generation refuses or does not wish to accept blame or show regret or feel responsible for the crimes of the past than that is their prerogative. They should not be held accountable. They must also accept that they can never be part of the solution and only will be seen as wanting to ignore the past. To the people who suffered, the ones who refuse to accept our ancestors crimes will always be part of the problem. Acknowledging and learning from the past is essential to a societies growth. I think Bills comment reflected this knowledge.

Those who suffered most will have a hard time moving on if they feel the current generation simply wants to sweep the crimes of the past under the rug. I am part Japanese Canadian and part British Canadian. My father was born in a Japanese internment camp during the second world war. My grandparents, aunts and uncles were treated horribly, stripped of their rights and property and robbed of their dignity. There were some who could never forgive and never moved on. My family made it a goal to forgive the government for what happened, forgive the people for spitting on and beating us up, forgive them for following what a society saw as acceptable at the time. As time went on, Canadian people moved on and eventually, when we looked back at what happened in the 40's, we saw that a horrible wrong had been committed. The Canadian government apologized and offered compensation for what happened. My father made it clear that we must accept the apology and embrace our neighbours. Our neighbours embraced us back. It led to him falling in love with a British Canadian woman and my mother learned it was possible to love him back. It led to me being born. We offered no resistance to the apology and we are now a valuable thread in the Canadian tapestry. This took decades and some still have not fully accepted the past or chosen to learn ALL of the lessons that come with it. Those who refuse are on both sides. They hold an anger in their souls that keeps them from completely opening their hearts and minds. Today I am proud to be a Canadian. I am proud to be my father and mothers son.

On a separate note, I share the shame of the white people who know the horrible crimes the British and French settlers committed against our Native people. Many Native Canadians or Indigenous people still are not willing to forgive and move on. Many will never be able to. Alcohol, drugs and a new monetary system have left our Native people far from where they were when the settlers first arrived. Many Native people want to move on but there are also lots of Canadians who talk about the 'lazy and welfare dependent Native people who pay no taxes and live off of this country'. (This is not how I feel but merely a sample of the comments I hear all the time) I think both sides have some forgiving to do and could learn more from each other than can be imagined. I hold faith that the divide will be conquered and we will all learn to live peacefully. I want to see our Native Canadians celebrated for their rich and beautiful history like they were during the last Winter Olympics. I have the utmost faith that it will happen.

Generalizations are just that, general and not pointed. They shouldn't be interpreted as such in order to further ones own beliefs. Aboriginals...white men...asian people...black people...whatever. No apologies are needed here only cooler heads and a dedication to mature, thoughtful discussion.

Peace as always. You are all my brothers and sisters. We are here for a reason.

With all due respect to your post, the reason that people can't move on is they don't know what they are trying to move on from.
Your post is exactly what I was talking about.
As an example, the middle east will NEVER have peace.
NEVER.
Until we let go of this paradigm of racism/guilt and realise it is simply a control mechanism.
Until we do that, we are wasting our time, they are pulling our strings.


My post was definitely NOT what you were talking about. I disagree with your motives and intentions but I support your right to voice them.

You missed the point I was trying to make. The decision of why to move on doesn't have to be mutually agreed upon by both sides. It must simply be wanted by both sides. The two disagreeing sides must agree that moving on is what is needed. My family decided to forgive past transgressions and my parents marriage took place 20 years before the Canadian government agreed to apologize. Our decision was made unilaterally. The apology was not needed but it was accepted. It really did make the healing and moving on a lot easier.

Just because you see the history of the land of Australia as none of your doing does not mean you are free from the blame others might feel. Nor does it make you responsible. What I made a point of saying was if you want to be part of the solution it would help to acknowledge the past. The shame you might feel does not come from being a white person in Australia, but rather from being a human in a world that can be so cruel. This is what could drive you to help your country heal properly. This is what could help our world heal. We see our mistakes in the past and we vow to correct them. You were not there for the past but you might sit idly as more crimes are committed in the present. Trust me...one just happened while I wrote this.

My shame is not from anything I did or my family did. I am part Asian and White but I am all Canadian! Honestly in the end "being Canadian' does not mean as much to me as it used to since I am more of a 'one world' kind of thinker now. I bear no specific responsibility for what happened but I carry the memories in my heart.

This "they" you refer to does not control me to do this or else "they" would be failing as there are still white supremacists and black supremacists and Jew Haters and Muslim haters all over the world. There are haters everywhere. All of these mentalities are flawed in my opinion but their holders are not following what "they" want them to do. If "they" were using this supposed "racism/guilt paradigm" than "they" would be failing miserably. This is what you use to justify your thinking and all that is fine. Please don't lump me together with that mentality. I don't think "they" would be pleased! ;)

As well since my beliefs are contrary to what 'they' want I must be on the right path. You used the term 'divide and conquer' in one of your posts and I used it recently as well. It is a tactic of war. I want people to get together against our oppressors not remain divided. Respectfully...

Peace is the goal, love is the chariot that gets you there!

Anchor
10th May 2011, 02:40
The forum dilemma.

Consider a "statement" is made on a forum for debate.

That "statement" can be perceived with a meaning ranging from the intended to the unintended. Among a set of readers there will be likely be representation across the spectrum of possibilities.

Agreement or disagreement with the perceived meaning results will result in a debate which may be so far from the original intention it beggars the original "statement" makers belief.

Abstract range of possible outcomes to the "statement"...

1) People agree on the basis of the intended meaning
2) People disagree on the basis of the intended meaning
3) People agree but on the basis of a perceived meaning which was other than intented!
4) People disagree but also on the basis of a meaning which was other than intended!

See what the vagaries of language set us up for?

Forums are a disaster waiting to happen, and as we can see they frequently do happen :)

Also, I would suggest that this is one of the chinks in the armor of forums like this, and it is ruthlessly exploited by people with agenda's.

Misunderstanding is rife, but it can be resolved.

In all of this APOLOGY is not necessary for progress (but it is an accepted civility and respect observed in many circles of people that fundamentally want to get along)

However what is more important, regardless of agreement or disagreement is that the intended meaning is clarified so that the misunderstandings are reduced to the minimum possible and as expediently as possible.

Feathers may get ruffled but this should not become a stick to beat people with.

Otherwise people with covert agendas WIN.

BOTH parties to these misunderstandings have to try to be as clear as possible to work out if it is worth agreeing or disagreeing.

Before then knee-jerk reactions cause more problems than they solve (as well as giving more "oxygen" to the ego than it deserves!)

Please be kind.

John..

Davidallany
10th May 2011, 02:41
To clarify, I'm as about as white as it is possible to be.

French, scottish, english, german, danish, russian -Polish
You are never white enough until you have the remaining following caucasian bloods, Arabs, Turk and Afghan. :wave:

Mike
10th May 2011, 02:43
So the solution to the problem is shoot the messenger?
Interesting.

it seems the messenger is the only one with the problem here.

Seikou-Kishi
10th May 2011, 02:44
sid, you've derailed this thread long enough. Give it up.

....

My ass squeaks when I walk.

...

Actually no; he's not de-railing this thread. This thread, if you look at the subject of the thread, is exactly for this purpose.

As for your arse squeaking... is that a white attribute? I've not heard that one before.

Lord Sidious
10th May 2011, 02:46
sid, you've derailed this thread long enough. Give it up.

"Giving it up" is probably not the right expression.

Rob - you made many people think - that's probably the best result possible -

the seed is put into the ground - it takes time to grow.

Maybe it's the right moment to brush the dust from the clothes and leave the battleground.

I hope you all find peace in your hearts.

Love, Sepia

Its ok, let them attack me, at least they get it out of their systems.
THEN we can actually figure out what is going on.
We might even figure out what we can do to fix things.



My post was definitely NOT what you were talking about. I disagree with your motives and intentions but I support your right to voice them.

You missed the point I was trying to make. The decision of why to move on doesn't have to be mutually agreed upon by both sides. It must simply be wanted by both sides. The two disagreeing sides must agree that moving on is what is needed. My family decided to forgive past transgressions and my parents marriage took place 20 years before the Canadian government agreed to apologize. Our decision was made unilaterally. The apology was not needed but it was accepted. It really did make the healing and moving on a lot easier.

Just because you see the history of the land of Australia as none of your doing does not mean you are free from the blame others might feel. Nor does it make you responsible. What I made a point of saying was if you want to be part of the solution it would help to acknowledge the past. The shame you might feel does not come from being a white person in Australia, but rather from being a human in a world that can be so cruel. This is what could drive you to help your country heal properly. This is what could help our world heal. We see our mistakes in the past and we vow to correct them. You were not there for the past but you might sit idly as more crimes are committed in the present. Trust me...one just happened while I wrote this.

My shame is not from anything I did or my family did. I am part Asian and White but I am all Canadian! Honestly in the end "being Canadian' does not mean as much to me as it used to since I am more of a 'one world' kind of thinker now. I bear no specific responsibility for what happened but I carry the memories in my heart.

This "they" you refer to does not control me to do this or else "they" would be failing as there are still white supremacists and black supremacists and Jew Haters and Muslim haters all over the world. There are haters everywhere. All of these mentalities are flawed in my opinion but their holders are not following what "they" want them to do. If "they" were using this supposed "racism/guilt paradigm" than "they" would be failing miserably. This is what you use to justify your thinking and all that is fine. Please don't lump me together with that mentality. I don't think "they" would be pleased! ;)

As well since my beliefs are contrary to what 'they' want I must be on the right path. You used the term 'divide and conquer' in one of your posts and I used it recently as well. It is a tactic of war. I want people to get together against our oppressors not remain divided. Respectfully...

Peace is the goal, love is the chariot that gets you there!

Are you sure that you know what my motives and intentions are?
How can I carry blame for something I had nothing to do with?
I agree about acknowledging the past, no worries there, it is the blame part I find unacceptable.
Peace is indeed the goal, yet all we have in the thread is fighting.
Interesting, no?



So the solution to the problem is shoot the messenger?
Interesting.

it seems the messenger is the only one with the problem here.

In your opinion, maybe.
I would say ALL of us have this problem, as we are part of the whole, no?



sid, you've derailed this thread long enough. Give it up.

....

My ass squeaks when I walk.

...

Actually no; he's not de-railing this thread. This thread, if you look at the subject of the thread, is exactly for this purpose.

As for your arse squeaking... is that a white attribute? I've not heard that one before.

Thanks for your input on this.
I wonder what the goals of some of the other posters in this thread are?
I have put mine up on the table.

MariaDine
10th May 2011, 02:48
« ! am not an Athenian or a Greek, but a citizen of the world.” - Socrates

sepia
10th May 2011, 02:50
So the solution to the problem is shoot the messenger?
Interesting.

it seems the messenger is the only one with the problem here.

Sorry to be sharp here: You have no idea what you are talking about.

Sepia

Davidallany
10th May 2011, 02:51
it seems the messenger is the only one with the problem here.
I have a problem with us continuously attacking members and rekindling dead thoughts, Lord Sidious is not the only one with a problem here, I, stand by him. We should all stand by each other and support each other, blaming, and stoning doesn't help. Come now let's unite.

East Sun
10th May 2011, 02:54
I never did understand anyone demanding an apology.
If someone is forced into apologizing is it actually a real apology?

I can even see someone refusing to make an apology just because someone demanded it.

Because, if someone feels that they should apologize, they will.
Just my 2cents.

Mike
10th May 2011, 02:55
So the solution to the problem is shoot the messenger?
Interesting.

it seems the messenger is the only one with the problem here.

Sorry to be sharp here: You have no idea what you are talking about.

Sepia

correction then: 2 people have a problem here

Lord Sidious
10th May 2011, 02:56
I never did understand anyone demanding an apology.
If someone is forced into apologizing is it actually a real apology?

I can even see someone refusing to make an apology just because someone demanded it.

Because, if someone feels that they should apologize, they will.
Just my 2cents.

What you say is true, unless you are trying to point out an issue and trying to get the one you want the apology from to think about the why.

sepia
10th May 2011, 02:57
Its ok, let them attack me, at least they get it out of their systems.
THEN we can actually figure out what is going on.
We might even figure out what we can do to fix things.


...and this is strongest love manifested...

I hope this is understood by the readers of this thread.

Sepia

Dennis Leahy
10th May 2011, 02:59
OK, here's a thought, Rob. Your reaction to Bill's comment made you think Bill's comment was a reaction to divisive programming handed down from tptb.

What if you drop that piece. Just flat-out drop it, and go straight to the track about what you see as the false or phony paradigm of racism - and that what you see happening is really economic division, not based at all on skin color/race. If you'll go there, I think you can make your point, but if this stays blended with the precipitating words that triggered this conversation, I think it will remain mired.

Dennis

Lord Sidious
10th May 2011, 03:02
OK, here's a thought, Rob. Your reaction to Bill's comment made you think Bill's comment was a reaction to divisive programming handed down from tptb.

What if you drop that piece. Just flat-out drop it, and go straight to the track about what you see as the false or phony paradigm of racism - and that what you see happening is really economic division, not based at all on skin color/race. If you'll go there, I think you can make your point, but if this stays blended with the precipitating words that triggered this conversation, I think it will remain mired.

Dennis

I am going there Dennis, but the time isn't right yet.
They need to vent some more.
Then they will be ready to let go of the rope and just be.
Let them keep kicking at me, they can't do anything except let go of their conscious selves.
And that is part of what they need.

HORIZONS
10th May 2011, 03:03
it seems the messenger is the only one with the problem here.

I disagree! But you seem to be having a problem with this (?) Just an observation - not an attack.

Karma Ninja
10th May 2011, 03:04
You said "Are you sure that you know what my motives and intentions are?
How can I carry blame for something I had nothing to do with?
I agree about acknowledging the past, no worries there, it is the blame part I find unacceptable.
Peace is indeed the goal, yet all we have in the thread is fighting.
Interesting, no?

Thanks for your input on this.
I wonder what the goals of some of the other posters in this thread are?
I have put mine up on the table."

I don't pretend to know what your motives or intentions are on a deep level or by using any special powers, I just read your posts. As you state just below your response to me...you have put yours on the table. The detox, the lessons, etc...

The blame I mention is directed towards you (unfairly I should add) by others. You can carry a shame...or not. Your choice completely. My feelings on the solution are my own and you don't need to adopt them.

I also don't want it to seem like I am fighting with you as that is not my intention.

At his point I am going to walk away from this discussion for fear of having more of comments misinterpreted.

Peace!

gigha
10th May 2011, 03:04
I have to say Dennis you do look good in red. ;) sorry off topic

Just a comment on Dennis becoming a moderator.

MariaDine
10th May 2011, 03:05
«Lord, make me an instrument of your peace. Where there is hatred, let me sow love. Where there is injury, pardon. Where there is doubt, faith. Where there is despair, hope. Where there is darkness, light. Where there is sadness, joy. O Divine Master, grant that I may not so much seek to be consoled, as to console; to be understood, as to understand; to be loved, as to love. For it is in giving that we receive. It is in pardoning that we are pardoned, and it is in dying that we are born to Eternal Life. Amen.

M_ _ _ _ ! Avalonian debates are giving me headaches and making me start to sound like an old nun and I'm not even catholic ...

Namasté

Davidallany
10th May 2011, 03:07
I have to say Dennis you do look good in red. sorry off topic
I love the guitar and the smile. :)

Lord Sidious
10th May 2011, 03:09
I don't pretend to know what your motives or intentions are on a deep level or by using any special powers, I just read your posts. As you state just below your response to me...you have put yours on the table. The detox, the lessons, etc...

The blame I mention is directed towards you (unfairly I should add) by others. You can carry a shame...or not. Your choice completely. My feelings on the solution are my own and you don't need to adopt them.

I also don't want it to seem like I am fighting with you as that is not my intention.

At his point I am going to walk away from this discussion for fear of having more of comments misinterpreted.

Peace!

NO.
No need to walk away, I didn't think you were attacking me or anything.
I wasn't sure what you were trying to tell me, that is all.
We all have a part to play here if avalon is to move forward.
We can be one of two things, part of the problem or part of the solution.
I have to be part of the problem, so that we can all be part of the solution.
Some of us are being too lazy to think and taking the easy way out.
No solutions there.

astrid
10th May 2011, 03:10
"What we write/say and what we mean can be very different"

Yes, i know that only too well , and i often check to make sure the message i'm trying to convey is the messaged received.

But also you have to consider also the filters we all have that we view things through.....

Sid , with all due respect , do you think it's possible that you were projecting your personal fliters onto something that

most of us seem to understand clearly??

yes or no???

A

Mike
10th May 2011, 03:11
it seems the messenger is the only one with the problem here.

I disagree! But you seem to be having a problem with this (?) Just an observation - not an attack.

the "problem" i was referring to was the reaction to Bill's post. its completely contrived and inane, and serves no purpose other than to bring attention to Sidious and his alleged "lesson of the day". do i have a problem with it? yeah, i guess i do.

Dennis Leahy
10th May 2011, 03:11
OK, here's a thought, Rob. Your reaction to Bill's comment made you think Bill's comment was a reaction to divisive programming handed down from tptb.

What if you drop that piece. Just flat-out drop it, and go straight to the track about what you see as the false or phony paradigm of racism - and that what you see happening is really economic division, not based at all on skin color/race. If you'll go there, I think you can make your point, but if this stays blended with the precipitating words that triggered this conversation, I think it will remain mired.

Dennis

I am going there Dennis, but the time isn't right yet.
They need to vent some more.
Then they will be ready to let go of the rope and just be.
Let them keep kicking at me, they can't do anything except let go of their conscious selves.
And that is part of what they need.

Take the lead on this. The thread is quicksand swirled with chocolate. I cannot see any reason to stay in the quicksand with a spoon trying to get the sweet stuff. You have a concept, a message, an idea about racism programming and it can stand on its own. There is nothing to gain by insisting on tying this to the words that precipitated the thought - just go with the thought. No one needs any kicking. Just take the lead, with clarity,

Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome Rob to the podium. He'd like to provide his insight into the topic of racism programming. Take it away Rob:

Dennis

Lord Sidious
10th May 2011, 03:12
"What we write/say and what we mean can be very different"

Yes, i know that only too well , and i often check to make sure the message i'm trying to convey is the messaged received.

But also you have to consider also the filters we all have that we view things through.....

Sid , with all due respect , do you think it's possible that you were projecting your personal fliters onto something that

most of us seem to understand clearly??

yes or no???

A

Of course it is possible.
And if you read my posts, I said I knew what he meant, no?

loveandgratitude
10th May 2011, 03:15
Important -Peoples - Keep in the centre of space because things are getting really weird on the planet at the moment and we can go for a spin if we do not stayed centered.

Chaos distracts us from our power. Time is of the essence.

Lord Sidious
10th May 2011, 03:15
it seems the messenger is the only one with the problem here.

I disagree! But you seem to be having a problem with this (?) Just an observation - not an attack.

the "problem" i was referring to was the reaction to Bill's post. its completely contrived and inane, and serves no purpose other than to bring attention to Sidious and his alleged "lesson of the day". do i have a problem with it? yeah, i guess i do.

You make a lot of assumptions in one post.
In case you didn't realise it, I don't need or want ''attention'' but I do want some healing.
Genuine healing, not two faced posts like some did before.
Anything I have to say to bill I say here, to his face.
I don't go behind his back where he can't respond and talk smack about him.
As is the way with all of us, your post betrays your internal world.
So you don't like me? Big deal, that is your right, I am not offended as I don't really care.
But to then post this, whilst being blinded by your emotion does nothing for you, or us.

HORIZONS
10th May 2011, 03:17
it seems the messenger is the only one with the problem here.

I disagree! But you seem to be having a problem with this (?) Just an observation - not an attack.

the "problem" i was referring to was the reaction to Bill's post. its completely contrived and inane, and serves no purpose other than to bring attention to Sidious and his alleged "lesson of the day". do i have a problem with it? yeah, i guess i do.

Well you are honest and entitled to your opinion, thanks for clarifying - kudos to you.

HORIZONS
10th May 2011, 03:21
it seems the messenger is the only one with the problem here.

I disagree! But you seem to be having a problem with this (?) Just an observation - not an attack.

the "problem" i was referring to was the reaction to Bill's post. its completely contrived and inane, and serves no purpose other than to bring attention to Sidious and his alleged "lesson of the day". do i have a problem with it? yeah, i guess i do.

You make a lot of assumptions in one post.
In case you didn't realise it, I don't need or want ''attention'' but I do want some healing.
Genuine healing, not two faced posts like some did before.
Anything I have to say to bill I say here, to his face.
I don't go behind his back where he can't respond and talk smack about him.
As is the way with all of us, your post betrays your internal world.
So you don't like me? Big deal, that is your right, I am not offended as I don't really care.
But to then post this, whilst being blinded by your emotion does nothing for you, or us.

Right, wrong or indifferent - It is what it is - nothing more - nothing less.

gigha
10th May 2011, 03:22
We have someone of interest watching this thread. hello Atticus

Strat
10th May 2011, 03:24
This will be my first post in Avalon regarding this type of discussion. I always ignore this stuff, because when **** like this hits the fan, everyone turns ****ty. Lord Kharsh the Draco be with me...

Obviously the issue here is language. LS you are suggesting he inadvertently promoted racism through his post where he suggested white men have destroyed the environment, specifically in Australia. You claim you are aware that Bill is not racist but you must have an apology.

I think Bill is not apologizing for a few reasons. One, because he feels he's right (after reading Guns, Germs & Steel, I'd have to agree. I have an image in my mind of English explorers being carried on the backs of black natives across ponds/rivers because they were afraid of malaria or whatever.) Two if were going to be hyper-politically correct, where do we draw the line? How can we tell when someone is going to be offended or not? What he said wasn't blatantly racist by any means. You can say I'm wrong and that my system of understanding is inferior, though the majority of this forum agrees with my argument.

We're trying to chill you out because we value you, and you are over reacting.

Another issues is the way you responded. If we were to take a poll on whether or not Bill should have re-worded his post, I feel it would be one sided in his favor. I imagine even most white Australians would agree. If we were to take another poll on whether or not your posts in the beginning were derogatory, it would be one sided against you.

I don't know Bill, or you, but we are MEN. You don't go up to a man and start making demands and telling them how to act. I'm 25 and I respect everyone, especially my elders. I'm aware that I'm not Einstein, I haven't contributed much in the world, seen much, and I'm only good at shooting pool. However, I don't care if you're 65, if you're rude to me, then get out of my face and I won't respect you. If you responded differently like, "Bill please be easy with ____ and _____ it's a sore spot with me" then that would've been better.

Maybe I'm wrong, but you've been defending yourself for 8 pages against people. You may have reached the point where emotions are overriding rational thought. That doesn't mean you're jumping up and down and cursing, though I do question whether or not you're trying to help the forum or win an argument.

Davidallany
10th May 2011, 03:25
KwJvcwmhxD8&NR=1&feature=fvwp
A tribute to Lord Sidious, the Dark Lord of the Sith.

HORIZONS
10th May 2011, 03:25
I don't really care.

I thought you said you did care? I know you said you cared. All opinions are important if the desired result is to be as your vision for Avalon has been stated.

(off to bed)

Paul
10th May 2011, 03:25
Anything I have to say to bill I say here, to his face.
I don't go behind his back where he can't respond and talk smack about him.
As is the way with all of us, your post betrays your internal world.
So you don't like me? Big deal, that is your right, I am not offended as I don't really care.
But to then post this, whilst being blinded by your emotion does nothing for you, or us.

I doubt you're one to speak with authority on Chinaski's inner world.

Nor for that matter did I see evidence that he was posting "blinded by" his emotions.

Mike
10th May 2011, 03:27
it seems the messenger is the only one with the problem here.

I disagree! But you seem to be having a problem with this (?) Just an observation - not an attack.

the "problem" i was referring to was the reaction to Bill's post. its completely contrived and inane, and serves no purpose other than to bring attention to Sidious and his alleged "lesson of the day". do i have a problem with it? yeah, i guess i do.

You make a lot of assumptions in one post.
In case you didn't realise it, I don't need or want ''attention'' but I do want some healing.
Genuine healing, not two faced posts like some did before.
Anything I have to say to bill I say here, to his face.
I don't go behind his back where he can't respond and talk smack about him.
As is the way with all of us, your post betrays your internal world.
So you don't like me? Big deal, that is your right, I am not offended as I don't really care.
But to then post this, whilst being blinded by your emotion does nothing for you, or us.

never said i didn't like you Sid. appreciate at least that you're not hiding or being 2 faced etc...but i think you're enjoying this a little too much, not so much for the so-called lesson, but for the attention grabbing. we'll have to agree to disagree here i guess.

i could go back and forth all night, but my girlfriend and the demands of a normal sex life dictate that i must sign off now. no hard feelings Sidious.

best,
Mike

Seikou-Kishi
10th May 2011, 03:28
I think Bill is not apologizing for a few reasons. One, because he feels he's right (after reading Guns, Germs & Steel, I'd have to agree. I have an image in my mind of English explorers being carried on the backs of black natives across ponds/rivers because they were afraid of malaria or whatever.)

Sidious's point though is that he, himself has never ridden on the back of a native.

Lord Sidious
10th May 2011, 03:30
This will be my first post in Avalon regarding this type of discussion. I always ignore this stuff, because when **** like this hits the fan, everyone turns ****ty. Lord Kharsh the Draco be with me...

Obviously the issue here is language. LS you are suggesting he inadvertently promoted racism through his post where he suggested white men have destroyed the environment, specifically in Australia. You claim you are aware that Bill is not racist but you must have an apology.

I think Bill is not apologizing for a few reasons. One, because he feels he's right (after reading Guns, Germs & Steel, I'd have to agree. I have an imagine in my mind of English explorers being carried on the backs of black natives across ponds/rivers because they were afraid of malaria or whatever.) Two if were going to be hyper-politically correct, where do we draw the line? How can we tell when someone is going to be offended or not? What he said wasn't blatantly racist by any means. You can say I'm wrong and that my system of understanding is inferior, though the majority of this forum agrees with my argument.

We're trying to chill you out because we value you, and you are over reacting.

Another issues is the way you responded. If we were to take a poll on whether or not Bill should have re-worded his post, I feel it would be one sided in his favor. I imagine even most white Australians would agree. If we were to take another poll on whether or not your posts in the beginning were derogatory, it would be one sided against you.

I don't know Bill, or you, but we are MEN. You don't go up to a man and start making demands and telling them how to act. I'm 25 and I respect everyone, especially my elders. I'm aware that I'm not Einstein, I haven't contributed much in the world, seen much, and I'm only good at shooting pool. However, I don't care if you're 65, if you're rude to me, then get out of my face and I won't respect you. If you responded differently like, "Bill please be easy with ____ and _____ it's a sore spot with me" I bet he would have responded differently.

Maybe I'm wrong, but you've been defending yourself for 8 pages against people. You may have reached the point where emotions are overriding rational thought. That doesn't mean you're jumping up and down and cursing, though I do question whether or not you're trying to help the forum or win an argument.

I would suggest that a poll would be pointless as many would vote for bill simply because they like him.
That in itself does no favours to any of us, but increases the problems.
I am not interested in defending myself, although I am explaining what I am trying to do.
You think I am wrong, again that is your right.
You could very well be right.
But you could be wrong too.



I don't really care.

I thought you said you did care? I know you said you cared. All opinions are important if the desired result is to be as your vision for Avalon has been stated.

(off to bed)

I don't care what people think of me.
I do care about us going forward as a united as possible avalon.
The question that I would ask everyone is this, is avalon worth it?
If the answer is yes, then could we attempt to actually deal with things and not react from emotion?



Anything I have to say to bill I say here, to his face.
I don't go behind his back where he can't respond and talk smack about him.
As is the way with all of us, your post betrays your internal world.
So you don't like me? Big deal, that is your right, I am not offended as I don't really care.
But to then post this, whilst being blinded by your emotion does nothing for you, or us.

I doubt you're one to speak with authority on Chinaski's inner world.

Nor for that matter did I see evidence that he was posting "blinded by" his emotions.

You could be right, but in this case, I think I am close to the mark.
The thing is, it isn't about being right and wrong, it is about settling the issues and moving on.
As one of the staff, this will make things easier for you too.
But you have you outlook, I have mine and the truth is probably a third.
That is why we put the ideas up, to figure out what the deal is, then move on, no?






it seems the messenger is the only one with the problem here.

I disagree! But you seem to be having a problem with this (?) Just an observation - not an attack.

the "problem" i was referring to was the reaction to Bill's post. its completely contrived and inane, and serves no purpose other than to bring attention to Sidious and his alleged "lesson of the day". do i have a problem with it? yeah, i guess i do.

You make a lot of assumptions in one post.
In case you didn't realise it, I don't need or want ''attention'' but I do want some healing.
Genuine healing, not two faced posts like some did before.
Anything I have to say to bill I say here, to his face.
I don't go behind his back where he can't respond and talk smack about him.
As is the way with all of us, your post betrays your internal world.
So you don't like me? Big deal, that is your right, I am not offended as I don't really care.
But to then post this, whilst being blinded by your emotion does nothing for you, or us.

never said i didn't like you Sid. appreciate at least that you're not hiding or being 2 faced etc...but i think you're enjoying this a little too much, not so much for the so-called lesson, but for the attention grabbing. we'll have to agree to disagree here i guess.

i could go back and forth all night, but my girlfriend and the demands of a normal sex life dictate that i must sign off now. no hard feelings Sidious.

best,
Mike

Ok, well thanks for clarifying that.
I am not enjoying this, I have been awake for 22 hours, my neck is sore as, but this needs to be dealt with before I can sleep.
Speak to you later Mike.

Davidallany
10th May 2011, 03:32
Maybe I'm wrong, but you've been defending yourself for 8 pages against people
Wouldn't you defend your so called self if so many were attacking you, instead of your opinions. Telling you to leave if you don't agree with them, this is how this all started, with the very first original post yesterday carrying an intense negative energy within it, and picked up and snow balled and caught some Nobel Avalonians.

Having said this for the purpose of clarification, on the beginning the middle and the end "I hope", this is in no way an attempt to blame Seiko-Kishi. I respect this member with all my heart and bow to him, I am sorry if my words have caused any tension or suffering. My respects Seiko-Kishi.

Davidallany
10th May 2011, 03:36
I would suggest that a poll would be pointless as many would vote for bill simply because they like him.
That in itself does no favours to any of us, but increases the problems.
I am not interested in defending myself, although I am explaining what I am trying to do.
You think I am wrong, again that is your right.
You could very well be right.
But you could be wrong too.
I agree, this course of action is not coming from the heart or out of love. The intension there is to proof someone wrong and the other right. Victory and defeat. Avalon is nobler than that, perhaps a separate thread would be a better choice if some are interested in carrying out a poll.

Seikou-Kishi
10th May 2011, 03:39
My post was not negative, thanks Davidallany

Lord Sidious
10th May 2011, 03:40
I would suggest that a poll would be pointless as many would vote for bill simply because they like him.
That in itself does no favours to any of us, but increases the problems.
I am not interested in defending myself, although I am explaining what I am trying to do.
You think I am wrong, again that is your right.
You could very well be right.
But you could be wrong too.
I agree, this course of action is not coming from the heart or out of love. The intension there is to proof someone wrong and the other right. Victory and defeat. Avalon is nobler than that, perhaps a separate thread would be a better choice if some are interested in carrying out a poll.

And that is the deal, I am not out to prove bill wrong.
Or show you that he is bad, a fraud or whatever else you guys would like to attribute to me.
I can't prove anything like that, I don't know bill and I have no info like that.
Sometimes in life the guy telling you the hard truth is more of a friend to you than the people patting you on the back.

Paul
10th May 2011, 03:43
I am not out to prove bill wrong.
You had me fooled.

Strat
10th May 2011, 03:44
Maybe I'm wrong, but you've been defending yourself for 8 pages against people
Wouldn't you defend your so called self if so many were attacking you, instead of your opinions. Telling you to leave if you don't agree with them, this is how this all started, with the very first original post yesterday carrying an intense negative energy within it, and picked up and snow balled and caught some Nobel Avalonians.

No, I always ignore derogatory posts.

I have been insulted a few times, though I've never responded. My metaphor has been this: When I go running I pass by a playground where children are screaming non sense. Sometimes they run up to the fence, shake it and scream at me, "hey look at that guy, yadda yadda." You know what I do? Ignore it because it's silliness.

I have never, not once, been in an argument on this forum. If you don't believe me you can check every post I've made.

Oh and LS, I imagine it's annoying having a 25yr old dude trying to give you advice. I'm not trying to be 'holier than thou or anything,' just calling it like I see it. God bless.

astrid
10th May 2011, 03:47
"Sometimes in life the guy telling you the hard truth is more of a friend to you than the people patting you on the back."

Yeah... but thats my point on projection.

Are you not just trying to impose your truth on to others?

Alot of us already get this issue, and don't read the word "white" the same way you do.

It doesn't seem hold the same "charge" for us as it does for you.

I don't see skin color at all, personally , i just see the person.

Oneness is oneness.

Flash
10th May 2011, 03:49
I would suggest that a poll would be pointless as many would vote for bill simply because they like him.
That in itself does no favours to any of us, but increases the problems.
I am not interested in defending myself, although I am explaining what I am trying to do.
You think I am wrong, again that is your right.
You could very well be right.
But you could be wrong too.
I agree, this course of action is not coming from the heart or out of love. The intension there is to proof someone wrong and the other right. Victory and defeat. Avalon is nobler than that, perhaps a separate thread would be a better choice if some are interested in carrying out a poll.

And that is the deal, I am not out to prove bill wrong.
Or show you that he is bad, a fraud or whatever else you guys would like to attribute to me.
I can't prove anything like that, I don't know bill and I have no info like that.
Sometimes in life the guy telling you the hard truth is more of a friend to you than the people patting you on the back.

Your are right about hard truth coming from real friends who extend their neck for us, even if it may be chopped. I personnally prefer these kind of friends, cause patting comes with a hidden knife sometimes (insincere) or most often with jello behavior that can't be relied on.

Personnally, I still think your intentions here are not to be proven right, but to make the separativeness point of our thinking (programmation) clearly understood. But I may be wrong in my assumption.

Anyhow, thanks for having me go further in developing my own thinking.

now we both go to sleep, n'est-ce pas?

Seikou-Kishi
10th May 2011, 03:49
Oh and LS, I imagine it's annoying having a 25yr old dude trying to give you advice. I'm not trying to be 'holier than thou or anything,' just calling it like I see it. God bless.

I can't imagine, after all LS has said, that he would betray himself with ageism.

Lord Sidious
10th May 2011, 03:55
I am not out to prove bill wrong.
You had me fooled.

Ok, you may be mistaking the context.
Yes, I believe he is wrong about the statement he made, but that isn't what I meant.
I meant the concept that I am trying to score points off of him by proving him wrong or whatever.
You know me better than this Paul, I am sure if you disconnect from this, you will get a better idea of what I am trying to do.
This is no difference to the wormtongue thread in that we have an issue, we need to deal with it and people can't or won't, so I am trying to push it, just with different words and a different technique.




Maybe I'm wrong, but you've been defending yourself for 8 pages against people
Wouldn't you defend your so called self if so many were attacking you, instead of your opinions. Telling you to leave if you don't agree with them, this is how this all started, with the very first original post yesterday carrying an intense negative energy within it, and picked up and snow balled and caught some Nobel Avalonians.

No, I always ignore derogatory posts.

I have been insulted a few times, though I've never responded. My metaphor has been this: When I go running I pass by a playground where children are screaming non sense. Sometimes they run up to the fence, shake it and scream at me, "hey look at that guy, yadda yadda." You know what I do? Ignore it because it's silliness.

I have never, not once, been in an argument on this forum. If you don't believe me you can check every post I've made.

Oh and LS, I imagine it's annoying having a 25yr old dude trying to give you advice. I'm not trying to be 'holier than thou or anything,' just calling it like I see it. God bless.

It isn't about age. You can give people advice that has merit, I am all ears if that is the case.
And I never took it that you were ''preaching'' at me.
I haven't seen you do that, so I wouldn't attribute that to you.


"Sometimes in life the guy telling you the hard truth is more of a friend to you than the people patting you on the back."

Yeah... but thats my point on projection.

Are you not just trying to impose your truth on to others?

Alot of us already get this issue, and don't read the word "white" the same way you do.

It doesn't seem hold the same "charge" for us as it does for you.

I don't see skin color at all, personally , i just see the person.

Oneness is oneness.

Yes, that is possible, that I am projecting, but isn't that the whole point of discussion?
We throw things around and figure things out, then one mans opinion is NOT forced on all.
I don't want you guys to just go with what I say, I want you to THINK.

Flash
10th May 2011, 03:57
This will be my first post in Avalon regarding this type of discussion. I always ignore this stuff, because when **** like this hits the fan, everyone turns ****ty. Lord Kharsh the Draco be with me...

Obviously the issue here is language. LS you are suggesting he inadvertently promoted racism through his post where he suggested white men have destroyed the environment, specifically in Australia. You claim you are aware that Bill is not racist but you must have an apology.

I think Bill is not apologizing for a few reasons. One, because he feels he's right (after reading Guns, Germs & Steel, I'd have to agree. I have an image in my mind of English explorers being carried on the backs of black natives across ponds/rivers because they were afraid of malaria or whatever.) Two if were going to be hyper-politically correct, where do we draw the line? How can we tell when someone is going to be offended or not? What he said wasn't blatantly racist by any means. You can say I'm wrong and that my system of understanding is inferior, though the majority of this forum agrees with my argument.

We're trying to chill you out because we value you, and you are over reacting.

Another issues is the way you responded. If we were to take a poll on whether or not Bill should have re-worded his post, I feel it would be one sided in his favor. I imagine even most white Australians would agree. If we were to take another poll on whether or not your posts in the beginning were derogatory, it would be one sided against you.

I don't know Bill, or you, but we are MEN. You don't go up to a man and start making demands and telling them how to act. I'm 25 and I respect everyone, especially my elders. I'm aware that I'm not Einstein, I haven't contributed much in the world, seen much, and I'm only good at shooting pool. However, I don't care if you're 65, if you're rude to me, then get out of my face and I won't respect you. If you responded differently like, "Bill please be easy with ____ and _____ it's a sore spot with me" then that would've been better.

Maybe I'm wrong, but you've been defending yourself for 8 pages against people. You may have reached the point where emotions are overriding rational thought. That doesn't mean you're jumping up and down and cursing, though I do question whether or not you're trying to help the forum or win an argument.

Despite all the thanks you had, I think you are beside the track Strat. I don't think Lord Sidious intent to be right, I think the intentions are elsewhere.

Also, the separativeness programmation is soooooooo ingrained in us that you made 2 here: age differences, and being a MAN . What difference does it make if you are a man or a woman. This is all the same, nobody likes to be forced into excuses no? Why an older person could not be stupid if he desires so, or have some flaws, as a young one (although I don't think Lord Sidious is in these posts)?.

Well, personnally, I think this is precisely what Lord Sidious is talking about, those ingrained programmation we have, the language we unconsciously use representing them, the images we unconsciously produce in our minds, the separations we provoke with it, without even seeing it.

Correct me if I am wong.

Lord Sidious
10th May 2011, 03:59
This will be my first post in Avalon regarding this type of discussion. I always ignore this stuff, because when **** like this hits the fan, everyone turns ****ty. Lord Kharsh the Draco be with me...

Obviously the issue here is language. LS you are suggesting he inadvertently promoted racism through his post where he suggested white men have destroyed the environment, specifically in Australia. You claim you are aware that Bill is not racist but you must have an apology.

I think Bill is not apologizing for a few reasons. One, because he feels he's right (after reading Guns, Germs & Steel, I'd have to agree. I have an image in my mind of English explorers being carried on the backs of black natives across ponds/rivers because they were afraid of malaria or whatever.) Two if were going to be hyper-politically correct, where do we draw the line? How can we tell when someone is going to be offended or not? What he said wasn't blatantly racist by any means. You can say I'm wrong and that my system of understanding is inferior, though the majority of this forum agrees with my argument.

We're trying to chill you out because we value you, and you are over reacting.

Another issues is the way you responded. If we were to take a poll on whether or not Bill should have re-worded his post, I feel it would be one sided in his favor. I imagine even most white Australians would agree. If we were to take another poll on whether or not your posts in the beginning were derogatory, it would be one sided against you.

I don't know Bill, or you, but we are MEN. You don't go up to a man and start making demands and telling them how to act. I'm 25 and I respect everyone, especially my elders. I'm aware that I'm not Einstein, I haven't contributed much in the world, seen much, and I'm only good at shooting pool. However, I don't care if you're 65, if you're rude to me, then get out of my face and I won't respect you. If you responded differently like, "Bill please be easy with ____ and _____ it's a sore spot with me" then that would've been better.

Maybe I'm wrong, but you've been defending yourself for 8 pages against people. You may have reached the point where emotions are overriding rational thought. That doesn't mean you're jumping up and down and cursing, though I do question whether or not you're trying to help the forum or win an argument.

Despite all the thanks you had, I think you are beside the track Strat. I don't think Lord Sidious intent to be right, I think the intentions are elsewhere.

Also, the separativeness programmation is soooooooo ingrained in us that you made 2 here: age differences, and being a MAN . What difference does it make if you are a man or a woman. This is all the same, nobody likes to be forced into excuses no? Why an older person could not be stupid if he desires so, or have some flaws, as a young one (although I don't think Lord Sidious is in these posts)?.

Well, personnally, I think this is precisely what Lord Sidious is talking about, those ingrained programmation we have, the language we unconsciously use representing them, the images we unconsciously produce in our minds, the separations we provoke with it, without even seeing it.

Correct me if I am wong.

You got it flash, you are not wrong.

Davidallany
10th May 2011, 04:02
Your are right about hard truth coming from real friends who extend their neck for us, even if it may be chopped
Wonderful and positive, your thoughts are, effortlessly flowing.. I think a good example of such people are Kerry, Bill, David Wilcock, Inelia, Jordan Maxwell, and the wonderful Bob Dean to name a few, those noble souls have been and are dedicating their lives for the sake of awakening as many of us as possible. I pray for them everyday. They deserve all we can give, especially spiritually, in money or physical assistance. Please let us all contribute something to the cause.

astrid
10th May 2011, 04:08
"I don't want you guys to just go with what I say, I want you to THINK."

We are thinking.

We just might not be thinking what u want us to think.

My Advice to you, for what its worth is get some sleep.

You health is more important than trying to convert us all to your way of thinking.

You might even see things differently when u wake.

Blessings,

Astrid

Davidallany
10th May 2011, 04:11
Oh and LS, I imagine it's annoying having a 25yr old dude trying to give you advice. I'm not trying to be 'holier than thou or anything,' just calling it like I see it. God bless.
Remember that we have the right to give advice to others, but they too have the right to no accept it. In the heart of action we remain free from it and it's attachment, otherwise if we attach to an end result and it doesn't happen we have a sense of dissatisfaction. We should be free ourselves from attaching to end results.
In my Buddhist culture we revere our elders, approach them with honour and deep respect. Even they are our seniors by one year.

Paul
10th May 2011, 04:12
My Advice to you, for what its worth is get some sleep.

I am considering closing this thread for perhaps an eight to twelve hour break, to give some a chance to sleep, some a chance to read and contribute to other good threads here, and some a chance to step back from this.

I will give at least a ten minute notice before doing so ... if I do so.

Arc
10th May 2011, 04:12
I want to say this has been a fascinating, and quite pithy thread, to say the least!

Bill, and Mods/Admins, I appreciate you letting it unfold, as Lord Sid has been very clear on many points, and respectful (albeit, a bit intense) and I realize he is not attacking anyone, nor the forum. He is making it stronger!

Lord Sid, I respect your passionate stand here, and it is really making me think. You are laying waste to empty arguments and popularity contests. And, you are presenting serious intellectual challenge to intellectual "Jedi" masters, so to speak. I don't see this as a battle being fought, but more of a class in session.

I have great respect for Bill and have great thanks for the hard job of the mods. No one is diminished here - no one. This is a great debate! and I am learning, even about my own inner perspectives on racial topics, subtle language, and subconscious guilt projected onto us by our history and predecessors.

And, I think that is what Avalon is about. Challenging us 'all', to think or rethink, or recalibrate, our perspectives/beliefs - together - in order to realize greater truth.

Are these growing pains?? Cheers!

oceanz
10th May 2011, 04:15
In this thread of questioning it does pose the challenge to all people on how to live in harmony with the environment and each other.


People are people and differences of color and shape shouldn't matter.

Prior to colonization which began in January 1788, the Australian Aborigines lived a lifestyle based on their Dreamtime beliefs. They had survived as a race for thousands of years and their lifestyle and cultural practices had remained virtually unchanged during that time. We refer to this as the traditional period.

When settlers followed the explorers and began felling trees and building farms, they restricted the ability of the Aborigines to move freely around their land. They also destroyed their traditional food sources.

The stereotype of Aborigines passively succumbing to the dictates of their environment has also been recently questioned. We now know that they altered the landscape in significant ways, using what has been called "firestick farming" to control underbrush growth and to facilitate hunting. Aborigines also altered species occurrence of flora and fauna by resource management and possibly assisted in the extinction of prehistoric animals.

Aboriginal people had to catch and collect their food, each and every day of their life. They were successful at doing this because they had an intimate knowledge of food-chain cycles, the migration patterns of birds and of the habitat where they lived. No doubt there were times when there were food shortages. But the essential point is that the Aboriginal people had a complete understanding of the flora and fauna within their tribal territory. They also engaged in land management practices - mainly burning grass and weeds.

Aboriginal culture was dynamic, not static.
http://www.crystalinks.com/aboriginals.html


As the Aboriginal race was not static who knows how they would've evolved if Australia wasn't colonialised and which race did or has the potential to do more damage to the environment ---> maybe not so much to do with a "race" but more to do with "greed".

loveandgratitude
10th May 2011, 04:16
Thank you Arc for your wonderful analogy...........well said.

LORD SID THIS IS DEVOTED TO YOU.....I KNOW YOU WILL LIKE THIS


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZnM7ABOk48

Lord Sidious
10th May 2011, 04:17
"I don't want you guys to just go with what I say, I want you to THINK."

We are thinking.

We just might not be thinking what u want us to think.

My Advice to you, for what its worth is get some sleep.

You health is more important than trying to convert us all to your way of thinking.

You might even see things differently when u wake.

Blessings,

Astrid

I don't want you to think anything specific, I would like you guys to think about the issues we are having.
Why did camelot split into two?
Why did avalon split into two?
How far are we going to let all this go?
How do we fix these issues if we don't know what the cause is?
We know of the posts at nexus, that is yet another symptom of this whole thing.
And the mods and bill are not wrong, some of the posts are not right.

astrid
10th May 2011, 04:20
Its all very simple.

Separation is the problem

Oneness is the answer.

Isthatso
10th May 2011, 04:20
I want to say this has been a fascinating, and quite pithy thread, to say the least!

Bill, and Mods/Admins, I appreciate you letting it unfold, as Lord Sid has been very clear on many points, and respectful (albeit, a bit intense) and I realize he is not attacking anyone, nor the forum. He is making it stronger!

Lord Sid, I respect your passionate stand here, and it is really making me think. You are laying waste to empty arguments and popularity contests. And, you are presenting serious intellectual challenge to intellectual "Jedi" masters, so to speak. I don't see this as a battle being fought, but more of a class in session.

I have great respect for Bill and have great thanks for the hard job of the mods. No one is diminished here - no one. This is a great debate! and I am learning, even about my own inner perspectives on racial topics, subtle language, and subconscious guilt projected onto us by our history and predecessors.

And, I think that is what Avalon is about. Challenging us 'all', to think or rethink, or recalibrate, our perspectives/beliefs - together - in order to realize greater truth.

Are these growing pains?? Cheers!

I agree.....I have slogged through the whole thread and view it as you do.

It's an expansion for me.

Thank you Sid and everyone contributing. I see no need to close this thread.

Peace and warm wishes.....

zerohero
10th May 2011, 04:28
http://projectavalon.net/tuolumne_meadows.jpg

I miss the blue sky.

DoubleHelix
10th May 2011, 04:33
Its all very simple.

Separation is the problem

Oneness is the answer.

Oneness is the answer only once the issues are stamped out

Like two positively charged magnets you can't bring two sides together whilst there's still underlying problems within both camps

I am not fully aware of what the exact issues may be, nor how to solve them but I believe this discussion could be on the right track.

Lord Sidious
10th May 2011, 04:42
Its all very simple.

Separation is the problem

Oneness is the answer.

Oneness is the answer only once the issues are stamped out

Like two positively charged magnets you can't bring two sides together whilst there's still underlying problems within both camps

I am not fully aware of what the exact issues may be, nor how to solve them but I believe this discussion could be on the right track.

We are getting there, some of you can now see what I am on about.

astrid
10th May 2011, 04:44
Not so.

You have a choice how u respond to your environment,

whether something is an "issue" or not is all up to you.

You see here is the big secret.

There is no duality, everything is actually neutral , thats the big illusion here.

It's just the spin that our mind puts onto things.

And yes , SID is right , its the programming we are all subjected too.

Awareness of that is the way out and through .

The magnet analogy doesn't fit here, as we have a lot more choice than what u might think.

A magnet does not.

Whether u get charged up by something is actually up to you.

I'm talking BIG picture here , which is the way i found out of the collective mud.

If u look at things from a higher vantage point, it does become clearer.

But i think this might be another topic, and another thread, ( maybe).

Time for me to bow out and watch a movie.

Blessings to all,

Astrid

zerohero
10th May 2011, 04:45
Its all very simple.

Separation is the problem

Oneness is the answer.

I'd have to disagree with that on all points. It is not simple, separation isn't 'the problem' and oneness isn't 'the answer'.

Did you ever hear the one about the person that was meditating in the middle of a field being one with the universe and all that? Well while that was going on an elephant was charging right at the meditator and the meditator gets stomped. Afterward some people who saw this rush to the meditator and say 'Hey didn't you hear us warning you about the elephant coming your way?'. The meditator explains about being one with the universe and the beauty and love and blah blah blah.

What's the moral or deeper meaning of that story? I'm not that wise but it seems to me it's good idea to be vigilant in watching out for #1 in this world.

Lord Sidious
10th May 2011, 04:46
Not so.

You have a choice how u respond to your environment,

whether something is an "issue" or not is all up to you.

You see here is the big secret.

There is no duality, everything is actually neutral , thats the big illusion here.

It's just the spin that our mind puts onto things.

And yes , SID is right , its the programming we are all subjected too.

Awareness of that is the way out and through .

The magnet analogy doesn't fit here, as we have a lot more choice than what u might think.

A magnet does not.

Whether u get charged up by something is actually up to you.

I'm talking BIG picture here , which is the way i found out of the collective mud.

If u look at things from a higher vantage point, it does become clearer.

But i think this might be another topic, and another thread, ( maybe).

Time for me to bow out and watch a movie.

Blessings to all,

Astrid

Thanks for that Astrid, you are right onto what I am trying to get across.
Enjoy your movie.

Isthatso
10th May 2011, 04:51
Dear Friends...
(I'm borrowing Bill's lovely approach)

Let's take a shot at it....together.

Camelot was before my time, but it was presented as a new direction taken by both Bill and Kerry, each fine tuning their paths. With the possibility of manipulation by tptb wanting to divide and conquer.....??? That's my take.

Avalon....same as above. I'm still unsure how much manipulation and from whom. As I wasn't privy to the moderating team, I simply don't know, however, Charles appears to have been the catalyst here and left as soon as this was achieved.

I'm of the opinion that people in general, myself included, are easily played on an emotional level and are often unable to get past that.

I'm simply not clear yet and it has troubled me for a while.

Warm wishes..

Lord Sidious
10th May 2011, 04:56
Ok, time for Uncle Sidious to retire to the rest chamber.
Almost 24 hours without sleep now.
Don't you avalonuggets mess the place up while I am gone, or there will be trouble!
I got a whole load of carrots in yesterday. :p

sandy
10th May 2011, 05:02
This will be my first post in Avalon regarding this type of discussion. I always ignore this stuff, because when **** like this hits the fan, everyone turns ****ty. Lord Kharsh the Draco be with me...

Obviously the issue here is language. LS you are suggesting he inadvertently promoted racism through his post where he suggested white men have destroyed the environment, specifically in Australia. You claim you are aware that Bill is not racist but you must have an apology.

I think Bill is not apologizing for a few reasons. One, because he feels he's right (after reading Guns, Germs & Steel, I'd have to agree. I have an image in my mind of English explorers being carried on the backs of black natives across ponds/rivers because they were afraid of malaria or whatever.) Two if were going to be hyper-politically correct, where do we draw the line? How can we tell when someone is going to be offended or not? What he said wasn't blatantly racist by any means. You can say I'm wrong and that my system of understanding is inferior, though the majority of this forum agrees with my argument.

We're trying to chill you out because we value you, and you are over reacting.

Another issues is the way you responded. If we were to take a poll on whether or not Bill should have re-worded his post, I feel it would be one sided in his favor. I imagine even most white Australians would agree. If we were to take another poll on whether or not your posts in the beginning were derogatory, it would be one sided against you.

I don't know Bill, or you, but we are MEN. You don't go up to a man and start making demands and telling them how to act. I'm 25 and I respect everyone, especially my elders. I'm aware that I'm not Einstein, I haven't contributed much in the world, seen much, and I'm only good at shooting pool. However, I don't care if you're 65, if you're rude to me, then get out of my face and I won't respect you. If you responded differently like, "Bill please be easy with ____ and _____ it's a sore spot with me" then that would've been better.

Maybe I'm wrong, but you've been defending yourself for 8 pages against people. You may have reached the point where emotions are overriding rational thought. That doesn't mean you're jumping up and down and cursing, though I do question whether or not you're trying to help the forum or win an argument.

Despite all the thanks you had, I think you are beside the track Strat. I don't think Lord Sidious intent to be right, I think the intentions are elsewhere.

Also, the separativeness programmation is soooooooo ingrained in us that you made 2 here: age differences, and being a MAN . What difference does it make if you are a man or a woman. This is all the same, nobody likes to be forced into excuses no? Why an older person could not be stupid if he desires so, or have some flaws, as a young one (although I don't think Lord Sidious is in these posts)?.

Well, personnally, I think this is precisely what Lord Sidious is talking about, those ingrained programmation we have, the language we unconsciously use representing them, the images we unconsciously produce in our minds, the separations we provoke with it, without even seeing it.

Correct me if I am wong.

IMHO you are right on the mark Dear Flash

Davidallany
10th May 2011, 05:07
No, I always ignore derogatory posts.

I have been insulted a few times, though I've never responded. My metaphor has been this: When I go running I pass by a playground where children are screaming non sense. Sometimes they run up to the fence, shake it and scream at me, "hey look at that guy, yadda yadda." You know what I do? Ignore it because it's silliness.
Yes true, I do the same if that was the case, but it's not. This is a bit more serious, there are no children here, not on Avalon, we are mature people, with messages of hope, unity and love. And although it's important to not take things personally, remain objective to the best of your ability, be patient, and polite. It is also as important to protect important issues from ridicule, sarcasm and dismissal, in a peaceful way, as well as try to bring peace and stillness to agitation and turmoil. Ignoring is an intelligent temporary measure, but sooner or later one has to face the imaginary demons in this imaginary existence. Mind is everything.

gigha
10th May 2011, 05:10
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4awZoGIefcE

If you could Lord Please ;)
and goodnight. xxx

sandy
10th May 2011, 05:12
Ok, time for Uncle Sidious to retire to the rest chamber.
Almost 24 hours without sleep now.
Don't you avalonuggets mess the place up while I am gone, or there will be trouble!
I got a whole load of carrots in yesterday. :p

Good Night Lord Sidious,

Hope you get some real good sleep as you have had a long row of carrots to hoe in the past 24 hours. WOW! what a gardener you are:)

mondaze
10th May 2011, 05:13
the legal mind in action, nice work rob, promoting thought rather than obedience.

Strat
10th May 2011, 05:15
Despite all the thanks you had, I think you are beside the track Strat. I don't think Lord Sidious intent to be right, I think the intentions are elsewhere.

Also, the separativeness programmation is soooooooo ingrained in us that you made 2 here: age differences, and being a MAN . What difference does it make if you are a man or a woman. This is all the same, nobody likes to be forced into excuses no? Why an older person could not be stupid if he desires so, or have some flaws, as a young one (although I don't think Lord Sidious is in these posts)?.

Well, personnally, I think this is precisely what Lord Sidious is talking about, those ingrained programmation we have, the language we unconsciously use representing them, the images we unconsciously produce in our minds, the separations we provoke with it, without even seeing it.

Correct me if I am wong.

I don't mean to correct you, so much as make my perspective clear to everyone.

Where you said "LS doesn't intend to be right, his intentions are elsewhere," I don't know what you mean. Why wouldn't you want to be right?

I'm going to address the age thing as well as the 'man' thing.

I said to him that I didn't want to come across as pious because I'm younger than him: I imagine, statistically, older people have more wisdom and often more knowledge in general than younger. I know it's not black and white like that, but many perceive it that way. I was raised this way. Many people don't like having a young buck giving them advice. Is that programming? Maybe. The fact is that it's very common in society and if he felt that way I wanted to make sure I didn't offend him.

Right now a lot of people are jumping on him. I wanted to make it clear that I am aware I likely have less life experience. I said it out of respect for him. If he were one of the people that falls under the statistic of not liking young guys giving advice, my comment would alleviate that. From there, he knows I'm trying to help, not attack like others. I don't know him, so I'm crossing my t's and dotting my i's so that I don't offend his sensibilities. What's so wrong with that?

There has to be some level where age matters. Maybe it's just me, but I don't feel as though my niece has a lot of wisdom. She's cute, but she doesn't know much about life. This is why I try to teach and protect her. So the counter-argument is, "well that's a 3 year old that doesn't count." OK, fair enough, where do we draw the line? Teens? 20s? People translate this differently and I try not to excite sensibilities.

I am not an 'ageist.' If I came across that way then I apologize I wasn't more clear. I really try hard to be articulate, I pride myself in this (this post is taking 30+ minutes). I will say it again, I am not an ageist, and I won't get into a semantical argument about this.

For the 'man' thing: Maybe this is programming. You may absolutely, be 100% correct. If it is programming, it needs to be acknowledged and we can't attack sensibilities just because they shouldn't exist. We must be compassionate and understanding to change the programming. If you don't address sensibilities like this you will face aggression real quick. If someone walks up to me in the bar, slaps the beer out of my hand and curses my mother, I'll punch them in the chin. If you do this to a girl, she may hit you, or she may get her boyfriend or a man she's with. This has been going on since humans realized they can get drunk. Guys love establishing dominance, OF COURSE this is not all guys, but in general. This is open to debate, though I feel it's not 50/50. Most guys would love to be the knight in shining armor, Superman, or whatever. The star, the guy nobody messes with.

Again, you may be right, the more I think about it, I agree with you. Growing up I participated in martial arts. This is probably because I wanted to be the billy bad ass I saw on TV. There are millions upon millions of guys like this. To be the knight in shinning armor, you have to know how to throw a jab-hook, 1-2.

This may be a backwards, perverse part of society but it is ingrained in the minds of MEN. Many of us are highly likely to rail against any perceived aggression, puff the chest out kind of thing. Here's the thing, even if I am aware of it, and train myself to be a calm person, it's the 'clutch time' that counts. Many men can be understanding, though when someone starts telling them what to do something happens in their brain. Adrenalin starts getting released and that old 'monkey pounding on the chest' instinct comes out of us. Often times, people (men and women I know, I know) get into discussions, then it evolves into resisting the angry emotions. This is where emotion starts to cloud thoughts. It's natural. I think men have a higher probability to 'pound the chest' than women. I do find that odd, because it seems women have a hard time making friends with other women. Maybe the girls I know are crazy, anyway..

So the answer is compassion. It's this knee-jerk reaction that causes fights. LS didn't show compassion or awareness of what I'm talking about in his derogatory posts. He went straight to the chest beating. I will say though, the last few times he's defended himself he has done so with the up most class. He has been calm and articulate and I salute him for that, it probably isn't easy.

You're free to call me sexist, but I'm not, that's just not true. If any of you ladies are offended I am sorry. I've never in my life been called a sexist. I won't discuss this in this thread either. If you'd like, I'd be willing to discuss it in a new thread, or in PM. I don't want to derail this thread but I seriously don't like the idea of being perceived as a sexist.

So if you and LS are aware of programming at this level, you guys should set the examples. I do not feel in his earlier posts with Bill he set a positive example. I feel he went into the chest beating response. You need to practice what you preach or nobody will listen.

SKIBADABOMSKI
10th May 2011, 05:35
******************

Teakai
10th May 2011, 05:36
We are told that, but is it true?
Did the whites really screw the nation up? How much is poticially correct rubbish?
We will never know, until we kill this racism madness.
Political correctness is like a gastic band for the intellect.

I’d say it’s true on the grounds that the Aboriginals didn’t have the technology to mess it up too bad. Also, they respected the land and animals spiritually, which is a far cry from how it’s been treated by our culture – the one whose bottom line is money, profit and ownership.

I don’t do political correctness. I think it’s a heap of crap. I really think this about what our modern culture has done to the indigenous culture, though




Race. In the beginning it was the human race, and in the end it was the human race. All these labels we keep applying to particular members of the human race needs to stop in order for the human race to move on. When we finally get THIS clue we are going to find that there is no color that seperates the true light that resides within us all.

Agreed. It's not at all the colour - that's just an easy identifier- it's more the culture and the attatchments one holds in regard to it that are doing the damage. In regard to Australian one culture destroyed another.
They were totally incompatible.
One culture knew nothing of ownership while the other was all about ownership. One culture believed they belonged to the land, the other believed the land belonged to them.
It was always doomed with such a mindset.

And you proved my point, it is not about skin colour, it is all about economics/money.
The system created this to play divide and conquer and this very thread is evidence that not only does it work, it is still working, even here where we think we are more ''advanced'' than others.
But are we?

Agree – and this culture mainly represents all people with white coloured skin. I’ve always wondered how that came about. Did it start when ‘they’ started messing with the DNA?

Also – I don’t think we are more advanced at all. Our technology has made us infantile and spiritually bereft. Take it away and most of us would be unable to survive.

mosquito
10th May 2011, 06:10
Wow, that's been a fascinating, if rather long, read ! So here's the take of a middle-aged, childish, occasionally wise, exiled white man :

GUILT - I am categorically NOT responsible for the actions of my forebears, my fellow countrymen (or women) or anyone else. I am also NOT guilty of any other kind of sh1t that anyone wants to project onto me. I AM, however, totally responsible for my life, my actions, my responses to other peoples' actions and statements. That's very different to guilt.

RACISM - A much loved word, especially for those who love being its' victims. But that doesn't mean it doesn't exist - it does. I used to live in South Africa, so believe me, I've seen racism and, contrary to what "Guardian" reading, BBC watching people want to beleive, it WAS NOT confined to white people. This will be confirmed by anyone who's lived in Africa. I also used to live in Handsworth in Birmingham, a real racial melting pot, and not a bad place at all. The racism I encountered there was between West Indians and Asians, you wouldn't believe some of the things they used to say about each other.

EVOLVING - Or "becoming conscious". This is not a linear journey leading upwards, as so many people like to believe. It's an outward, expansive journey, becoming conscious means becoming fully aware of who we are, ESPECIALLY the parts we don't like and spend most of our waking time pretending don't exist. How do we know what they are ? They are the things which push our buttons and really piss us off in others. (This is sort of on a par with what LS was saying about detoxing). We need to acknowledge our own inherent capacity to commit attrocities and to acknowledge when they have been commited in the past. THAT DOES NOT MEAN WE HAVE TO ACCEPT GUILT ! As we bring these things to light (ie become aware of them and acknowledge them), we will go through a purgatorial phase (detoxing), and can expect our buttons to get pressed even more. Then one glorious day, they cease to be an issue, and we cease to respond. (This takes a while !!!!!!)

NOW - OK, so we've acknowledged that men, women, white, black and pink have all done bad things in the past, but what about now ? What about the attrocities being commited in your name TODAY ? Who's responsible ? "Oh", I hear you say, "It's the powers-that-be, it's "them"". No it isn't. It's you and me. What do we do about it ? Voting for a new regime clearly doesn't work, so what's the answer ? Isn't this something we ought to start discussing ? As for me, I decided 5 years ago to stop supporting the UK government with my presence and my tax money, but where can I go ? Where on this beautiful Earth is free of tyranny and egotistical, pathetic, stupid little men in suits telling us what we can and can't do ?

CONCLUSION - I don't know the answers to the above questions, all I can do is continue working on myself, continue looking at what's been swept under the carpet over countless generations, continue to accept that the horrors of this world ARE a reflection of my deepest, darkest humanity (and yours !) and to accept responsibility for changing myself and thereby changing our world.

Power and freedom to you all

Jeffrey
10th May 2011, 06:24
This interjection is intended to sooth any parties feeling troubled, and is a wholeheartedly peaceful post.

Here is a good rule of thumb that I use to check myself from time to time.

Before you talk, be certain that what you say is:

Truthful
Appropriate
Lucid
Kind

I find that following this rule befits acknowledging the sensitivity of language in accordance with how people receive what is said.

Much Love and Thanks,

Vivek

161803398
10th May 2011, 07:19
I think its always important to get the kaleidiscope turned at the correct angle. Many things are labelled racist that actually have nothing to do with race. For instance, there are "elitists" and wanna be elitists of many types. While there are wealthy elitists; brainy elitists; and talented elitists it really goes all the way down the ladder to poor, dumb ass jerks who just want to feel they are better than someone else.

In British Columbia there are a lot of "aboriginal people" - Indians; or First Nations; or Metis. I know of lot of Indians and I think most of them know this. but for those who don't, I tell them: don't think the PTB treat you like **** because they are racist; because they treat me like **** too and I am white. They treat everyone like ****.

Some people just don't know how to handle power of any kind; and that could include any sort of power including something as simple as the power to cut off a telephone or even just the power to help. The problem is exacerbated when they don't have a basic sense of connection with the community.

Then there are other people who have a problem with their status. That's why I think you tend to get a lot of so called "racists" of the dumb ass jerk variety.

Then there are the rest of us, most of whom wouldn't give a rat's ass what colour or race or religion anyone was if it hadn't been made an issue. We might not instantly feel totally at home in an unfamiliar group; but we'd get over it and probably pretty fast. Now that its been made an issue; some people are afraid of it... and they lie to themselves or bash themselves or try to do the right thing -- all of which messes them up.

What saved me from most of the bull**** is that I don't group according to colour. I always felt most at home with fishermen, farmers and some intellectuals. You know there isn't much difference between a farmer from China or a farmer from Ireland or a farmer from anywhere in the world. Same with fisher people. The people most like the Indians on the coast of British Columbia would be Icelanders - to me, anyway. I once met a Chinese professor at the University who said "my country is the university". There's another guy who groups differently. Again, that's why you get a lot of dumb ass so called racists -- too stupid to think of anything more subtle than the totally obvious.

Ross
10th May 2011, 07:19
Apparently I'm a first generation Hybrid, so where does that leave me? should I be offended:doh:

Ross

DevilPigeon
10th May 2011, 08:12
So the solution to the problem is shoot the messenger?
Interesting.

it seems the messenger is the only one with the problem here.

Wrong. I fully support Lord Sid 110%.

¤=[Post Update]=¤





So the solution to the problem is shoot the messenger?
Interesting.

it seems the messenger is the only one with the problem here.

Sorry to be sharp here: You have no idea what you are talking about.

Sepia

correction then: 2 people have a problem here

3. Minimum.

DevilPigeon
10th May 2011, 08:15
it seems the messenger is the only one with the problem here.

I disagree! But you seem to be having a problem with this (?) Just an observation - not an attack.

the "problem" i was referring to was the reaction to Bill's post. its completely contrived and inane, and serves no purpose other than to bring attention to Sidious and his alleged "lesson of the day". do i have a problem with it? yeah, i guess i do.

It's not inane at all, and it's not solely about the comment made. It's deeper than that.

Humble Janitor
10th May 2011, 08:18
I don't see anything racist about what Bill said. In fact, I dare say that he's correct. While native peoples were certainly not perfect, they did not cause anywhere near the amount of harm that their white counterparts caused with the advent of industrialization and colonial pursuits.

But, the past is the past and all can be forgiven. We must pay attention to our impact upon this planet, regardless of our race or background.

Amer
10th May 2011, 08:22
You're free to call me sexist, but I'm not, that's just not true. If any of you ladies are offended I am sorry. I've never in my life been called a sexist. I won't discuss this in this thread either. If you'd like, I'd be willing to discuss it in a new thread, or in PM. I don't want to derail this thread but I seriously don't like the idea of being perceived as a sexist.

Hi strat, I really don't think that Flash was calling you a sexist- please don't take that from what was said, you certainly did not offend me. I think her point is that we have the idea of being seperate from one another ingrained in our unconscious and that makes for the creation of a problematic society.


There has to be some level where age matters. Maybe it's just me, but I don't feel as though my niece has a lot of wisdom. She's cute, but she doesn't know much about life. This is why I try to teach and protect her.

You know Strat I believe that children may know a lot more than us adults! The biggest change in my life happened when I became a mother and along with it came a challenge so great and so full of responsibility that it is terrifying and fantastic all in one. I consider my three-year-old more wise than me in a pure sense. He answers me in ways that take my breath away and leave me truly humbled. He makes me want to be the best that I am in every sense, to make a difference in this world if only on the smallest of levels, because of him I am learning about what responsibility means- being responsible for myself and how I interact with the world around me. That he should provoke this in me I believe him to be indeed wise!

In all of this thread- which I believe to be of value- there have been great observations from many people and I salute everyone here who is for meaningful discussion and thank ye for it. One observation resonates with me so much and it is this:


Racism is learnt behaviour. It is taught and it often starts in the family and is re-inforced at school.

I knew a man once who raised his children to hate the English. From a young age just like when we say to toddlers what does the moo-cow say- he would say to his sons "what are the English?" And his small boys who didn't even know what they were saying would respond as had been taught by their father- "the English are bastards."

This is one example of how we ruin the world, how we make the killers of tomorrow. This is another endless form of child abuse- teaching them racism; perpetuating the continual dragging around of baggage and ingrained mis-conceived notions about who we are in the world, perpetuating hate, killing purity and promise in its infancy. The shame and the sadness of it all.

My heartfelt plea to myself and all is this: Let us be models of light for our children in all that we endeavor to do.

jjl
10th May 2011, 08:25
white men should be able to call each other white. In the inner city US the word N***** is bandied around by african americans. It's a term a white person should never use, being outside the culture. But by the same philosophy, whites should be allowed to be critical of thier own race in a way that might not be well tolerated coming from other races.

viking
10th May 2011, 08:33
Hmmm...

He said this..you said that..apologise for this , and apoligise for that...black white yellow we are all one, and we know this, dont we.

Keep on track guys, the energies are very high at the moment...deal with it...things have been taking out of context...

United we stand, divided we fall. United we will be.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3f5a8B4ESA&feature=player_embedded

viking

161803398
10th May 2011, 08:38
A long time ago, there was a certain white guy that I thought was a total ass. Every time he met an Indian he would ask "what is your house; what is your sign". He thought that showed he knew something about Indians and that it meant he wasn't a "racist". I thought it meant he was a racist. I mean, what business it is of his what house or sign someone was. However, I used to acknowledge that there was a lot of rape and murder up at Kispiox. This was true and a real concern to people who lived there. I thought it would be racist to pretend it didn't exist. But this guy thought that made me a racist. I disliked him; he disliked me. Now, I think we were fighting over something fairly stupid. In the end, we were both doing what we believed in and had our hearts in the right place. We were only divided by a stupid issue that's been created by evil people.

mosquito
10th May 2011, 08:59
I agree with what so many people say here - racism is learned behaviour, just an idiotic way of discriminating against someone. But there are plenty more, equally assinine ways that non-racists use : the newspaper you read, the football team you support, your educational background, etc. ad infinitum, it's all part of the "I'm right, you're wrong" program that humans seem so good at running.

TigerLilly
10th May 2011, 09:07
Wow, what a constructive thread, it has taken me a while to catch up!

Thank you Lord Sidious, I for one have learnt a lot from this thread and I support your argument.

No generalised statements about racial groups are acceptable.

Lord Sidious
10th May 2011, 09:20
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4awZoGIefcE

If you could Lord Please ;)
and goodnight. xxx

There ya go, Sith Lord commands mob barley appear in public.




Ok, time for Uncle Sidious to retire to the rest chamber.
Almost 24 hours without sleep now.
Don't you avalonuggets mess the place up while I am gone, or there will be trouble!
I got a whole load of carrots in yesterday. :p

Good Night Lord Sidious,

Hope you get some real good sleep as you have had a long row of carrots to hoe in the past 24 hours. WOW! what a gardener you are:)

Oh, I didn't grow em, I have people to do that for me.
You ever seen an emperor in the garden? :p





Despite all the thanks you had, I think you are beside the track Strat. I don't think Lord Sidious intent to be right, I think the intentions are elsewhere.

Also, the separativeness programmation is soooooooo ingrained in us that you made 2 here: age differences, and being a MAN . What difference does it make if you are a man or a woman. This is all the same, nobody likes to be forced into excuses no? Why an older person could not be stupid if he desires so, or have some flaws, as a young one (although I don't think Lord Sidious is in these posts)?.

Well, personnally, I think this is precisely what Lord Sidious is talking about, those ingrained programmation we have, the language we unconsciously use representing them, the images we unconsciously produce in our minds, the separations we provoke with it, without even seeing it.

Correct me if I am wong.

I don't mean to correct you, so much as make my perspective clear to everyone.

Where you said "LS doesn't intend to be right, his intentions are elsewhere," I don't know what you mean. Why wouldn't you want to be right?

I'm going to address the age thing as well as the 'man' thing.

I said to him that I didn't want to come across as pious because I'm younger than him: I imagine, statistically, older people have more wisdom and often more knowledge in general than younger. I know it's not black and white like that, but many perceive it that way. I was raised this way. Many people don't like having a young buck giving them advice. Is that programming? Maybe. The fact is that it's very common in society and if he felt that way I wanted to make sure I didn't offend him.

Right now a lot of people are jumping on him. I wanted to make it clear that I am aware I likely have less life experience. I said it out of respect for him. If he were one of the people that falls under the statistic of not liking young guys giving advice, my comment would alleviate that. From there, he knows I'm trying to help, not attack like others. I don't know him, so I'm crossing my t's and dotting my i's so that I don't offend his sensibilities. What's so wrong with that?

There has to be some level where age matters. Maybe it's just me, but I don't feel as though my niece has a lot of wisdom. She's cute, but she doesn't know much about life. This is why I try to teach and protect her. So the counter-argument is, "well that's a 3 year old that doesn't count." OK, fair enough, where do we draw the line? Teens? 20s? People translate this differently and I try not to excite sensibilities.

I am not an 'ageist.' If I came across that way then I apologize I wasn't more clear. I really try hard to be articulate, I pride myself in this (this post is taking 30+ minutes). I will say it again, I am not an ageist, and I won't get into a semantical argument about this.

For the 'man' thing: Maybe this is programming. You may absolutely, be 100% correct. If it is programming, it needs to be acknowledged and we can't attack sensibilities just because they shouldn't exist. We must be compassionate and understanding to change the programming. If you don't address sensibilities like this you will face aggression real quick. If someone walks up to me in the bar, slaps the beer out of my hand and curses my mother, I'll punch them in the chin. If you do this to a girl, she may hit you, or she may get her boyfriend or a man she's with. This has been going on since humans realized they can get drunk. Guys love establishing dominance, OF COURSE this is not all guys, but in general. This is open to debate, though I feel it's not 50/50. Most guys would love to be the knight in shining armor, Superman, or whatever. The star, the guy nobody messes with.

Again, you may be right, the more I think about it, I agree with you. Growing up I participated in martial arts. This is probably because I wanted to be the billy bad ass I saw on TV. There are millions upon millions of guys like this. To be the knight in shinning armor, you have to know how to throw a jab-hook, 1-2.

This may be a backwards, perverse part of society but it is ingrained in the minds of MEN. Many of us are highly likely to rail against any perceived aggression, puff the chest out kind of thing. Here's the thing, even if I am aware of it, and train myself to be a calm person, it's the 'clutch time' that counts. Many men can be understanding, though when someone starts telling them what to do something happens in their brain. Adrenalin starts getting released and that old 'monkey pounding on the chest' instinct comes out of us. Often times, people (men and women I know, I know) get into discussions, then it evolves into resisting the angry emotions. This is where emotion starts to cloud thoughts. It's natural. I think men have a higher probability to 'pound the chest' than women. I do find that odd, because it seems women have a hard time making friends with other women. Maybe the girls I know are crazy, anyway..

So the answer is compassion. It's this knee-jerk reaction that causes fights. LS didn't show compassion or awareness of what I'm talking about in his derogatory posts. He went straight to the chest beating. I will say though, the last few times he's defended himself he has done so with the up most class. He has been calm and articulate and I salute him for that, it probably isn't easy.

You're free to call me sexist, but I'm not, that's just not true. If any of you ladies are offended I am sorry. I've never in my life been called a sexist. I won't discuss this in this thread either. If you'd like, I'd be willing to discuss it in a new thread, or in PM. I don't want to derail this thread but I seriously don't like the idea of being perceived as a sexist.

So if you and LS are aware of programming at this level, you guys should set the examples. I do not feel in his earlier posts with Bill he set a positive example. I feel he went into the chest beating response. You need to practice what you preach or nobody will listen.

You are correct. Those who can walk the walk AND talk the talk are the ones that can do things others can't.
I try very hard to do that. I fail at times.
I am a man like you, not a superman, not a god.
But you know what? There is a time for nice words and a time for a slap in the face.
Mix them up and it won't work.
You see that I got all your attention and I even managed to get a lot of you to figure out what I was doing.
Maybe some of you are angry at me for doing so and that is ok.
But let me tell you ALL this, we are sitting here, on an internet forum trading virtual blows and in the meantime, the system rolls on, unhindered and unconcerned.
Things are coming that many people won't survive.
The system won't need to genocide humanity, it will die off anyways.
Many here won't survive.
So why am I doing this? Because we are spending our time on crap.
Yes, crap, you read that correctly.
Every day that we debate the point over the members leaving, is bill this and that, is nexus doing this and that, is one day lost that we can work out what some of you will do about your future.
Guess what avalonuggets?
That is EXACTLY what the system wants, for you to get lost in aimless pursuits and lose sight of the big picture.
You may realise that I don't lose sight of things, even with people kicking at me, throwing things at me, calling me names and insinuating things that aren't very nice.
I have a way above average intellect and if you guys are smart, you will take advantage of this.
This isn't about ego, it is about survival.
I have people on this forum whose survival means the world to me, that is why I am here.
That is why I am not planning on going anywhere.
What I feel we need to do is this, heal the issues between camelot, avalon and nexus.
As much as is possible.
We don't have to love each other, hell, we don't even have to like each other, but we do have to be able to work together.
So no more nuggetry, or you might end up with orange things hanging out of your nose!





We are told that, but is it true?
Did the whites really screw the nation up? How much is poticially correct rubbish?
We will never know, until we kill this racism madness.
Political correctness is like a gastic band for the intellect.

I’d say it’s true on the grounds that the Aboriginals didn’t have the technology to mess it up too bad. Also, they respected the land and animals spiritually, which is a far cry from how it’s been treated by our culture – the one whose bottom line is money, profit and ownership.

I don’t do political correctness. I think it’s a heap of crap. I really think this about what our modern culture has done to the indigenous culture, though




Race. In the beginning it was the human race, and in the end it was the human race. All these labels we keep applying to particular members of the human race needs to stop in order for the human race to move on. When we finally get THIS clue we are going to find that there is no color that seperates the true light that resides within us all.

Agreed. It's not at all the colour - that's just an easy identifier- it's more the culture and the attatchments one holds in regard to it that are doing the damage. In regard to Australian one culture destroyed another.
They were totally incompatible.
One culture knew nothing of ownership while the other was all about ownership. One culture believed they belonged to the land, the other believed the land belonged to them.
It was always doomed with such a mindset.

And you proved my point, it is not about skin colour, it is all about economics/money.
The system created this to play divide and conquer and this very thread is evidence that not only does it work, it is still working, even here where we think we are more ''advanced'' than others.
But are we?

Agree – and this culture mainly represents all people with white coloured skin. I’ve always wondered how that came about. Did it start when ‘they’ started messing with the DNA?

Also – I don’t think we are more advanced at all. Our technology has made us infantile and spiritually bereft. Take it away and most of us would be unable to survive.

Let me say this to you, there is not one group around, now or in history that could survive without taking from the environment.
Debating the merits of the way the aborigines lived is redundant, we need to now move on to how WE are going to make it through the coming cataclysm.
On the last part of your post, I agree totally and that hooks into what I am about.


Apparently I'm a first generation Hybrid, so where does that leave me? should I be offended:doh:

Ross

Yeah, Ross, you should be offended, seems like everyone else is.
Oh and get a haircut already ya hippynugget. :p

Steve C
10th May 2011, 10:03
I thought a racist was somebody who liked to run fast around a track.

Teakai
10th May 2011, 10:03
Let me say this to you, there is not one group around, now or in history that could survive without taking from the environment.
Debating the merits of the way the aborigines lived is redundant, we need to now move on to how WE are going to make it through the coming cataclysm.
On the last part of your post, I agree totally and that hooks into what I am about.


I agree that we all take from the environment, but, to take from doesn't necessarily mean to destroy it. And in regard to Australian history evidence shows that the white culture took, while giving little back. There are cultures who work within the ecosystem and there are cultures who are parastitic and destructive. The parasitic and destructive will eventually destroy itself as it's unsustainable with nature.
Hmmmmmmmm.

Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

Lord Sidious
10th May 2011, 10:27
I always thought a racist was sombody who likes to drive fast in there car ;)

Lets keep the beautiful peace...:)

Hi All,

I was speaking to a friend on the phone this morning,i was telling him about this thread.

I told him what i posted.

He said he had watched a video with Will Smith.

Will was asked a question about racism,he replied "Racism i dont know what you mean,if we dont believe in it,it does'nt exist"

Wow...i could of jumped for joy when my friend told me that....Will is right,the power of intent and belief makes the world we live in,

If we all thought a racist was sombody who liked to go fast on there bike,run fast,or just get things done with speed,there would be no racism.

We would become equals,on this planet.

I choose not to use the word,i don't believe it exists ;)

Now im going to read something positive and think and feel that positivity,maybe we should all be posting positive news.

Peace All.

Thanks for that.
What I highlighted is exactly what I said in my thread about stopping the madness.
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?16401-We-need-to-stop-this-madness-NOW%21
WE are the wind in the sails of the madness.
Thanks again for your input, it is appreciated.





Let me say this to you, there is not one group around, now or in history that could survive without taking from the environment.
Debating the merits of the way the aborigines lived is redundant, we need to now move on to how WE are going to make it through the coming cataclysm.
On the last part of your post, I agree totally and that hooks into what I am about.


I agree that we all take from the environment, but, to take from doesn't necessarily mean to destroy it. And in regard to Australian history evidence shows that the white culture took, while giving little back. There are cultures who work within the ecosystem and there are cultures who are parastitic and destructive. The parasitic and destructive will eventually destroy itself as it's unsustainable with nature.
Hmmmmmmmm.

Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

Teakai, again you are correct, but you are missing something.
The environment is going to be devastated, who really cares who did what?
Who cares why they did it?
The population WILL be reduced down to a small number and not that far away.
What are YOU going to do to get through to the other side with those you care about?

Teakai
10th May 2011, 11:09
Teakai, again you are correct, but you are missing something.
The environment is going to be devastated, who really cares who did what?
Who cares why they did it?
The population WILL be reduced down to a small number and not that far away.
What are YOU going to do to get through to the other side with those you care about?

Be me - it's all I can do.
But...I must be missing something because what's that got to do with what Bill said that you took issue with?

Lord Sidious
10th May 2011, 11:23
Teakai, again you are correct, but you are missing something.
The environment is going to be devastated, who really cares who did what?
Who cares why they did it?
The population WILL be reduced down to a small number and not that far away.
What are YOU going to do to get through to the other side with those you care about?

Be me - it's all I can do.
But...I must be missing something because what's that got to do with what Bill said that you took issue with?

This is THE big picture.
As I said, bill provided us all with an opportunity on a plate.
I took it.
I got your attention, you see what I am on about.
We can't work towards a solution whilst we are divided, can we?
Didn't I do this to you guys on the wormtongue thread?

Donna O
10th May 2011, 11:35
I don't want you to think anything specific, I would like you guys to think about the issues we are having.
Why did camelot split into two?
Why did avalon split into two?
How far are we going to let all this go?
How do we fix these issues if we don't know what the cause is?
We know of the posts at nexus, that is yet another symptom of this whole thing.
And the mods and bill are not wrong, some of the posts are not right.

Hi Lord Sidious, can I ask you to not re-hash the whole of Avalon's history on this thread, it isn't relevant. What are you trying to say Bill did that contributed to the break-up of Camelot?

Lord Sidious
10th May 2011, 11:41
I don't want you to think anything specific, I would like you guys to think about the issues we are having.
Why did camelot split into two?
Why did avalon split into two?
How far are we going to let all this go?
How do we fix these issues if we don't know what the cause is?
We know of the posts at nexus, that is yet another symptom of this whole thing.
And the mods and bill are not wrong, some of the posts are not right.

Hi Lord Sidious, can I ask you to not re-hash the whole of Avalon's history on this thread, it isn't relevant. What are you trying to say Bill did that contributed to the break-up of Camalot?

You can ask, of course.
I will do what I have to do and this thread is here for us to discuss various issues.
I don't know what bill ''did'' there.
And I am not pointing the finger at him as if he is ''bad'' or anything like that.
Go back and read the thread from the beginning if you did not do that yet.
I am trying to unite you all again.
Like I did once before.
Stop thinking about this and just feel.
Like Obi Wan said to Luke in A New Hope, ''Let go of your conscious mind and use your feelings''
I advise you to do the same thing.

On a different note, congratulations on your promotion. :party:
I was going to post that on your profile, but you have the comments disabled.

yaksuit
10th May 2011, 11:45
Some "ironic" stand-up comedy from an Australian icon in Austen Tayshus with a guest "comedian".
Austen Tayshus is known for pushing the cultural envelope.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qwb9nZliQ9I

Teakai
10th May 2011, 11:52
Teakai, again you are correct, but you are missing something.
The environment is going to be devastated, who really cares who did what?
Who cares why they did it?
The population WILL be reduced down to a small number and not that far away.
What are YOU going to do to get through to the other side with those you care about?

Be me - it's all I can do.
But...I must be missing something because what's that got to do with what Bill said that you took issue with?

This is THE big picture.
As I said, bill provided us all with an opportunity on a plate.
I took it.
I got your attention, you see what I am on about.
We can't work towards a solution whilst we are divided, can we?
Didn't I do this to you guys on the wormtongue thread?

Pffft! What evrrrrr!!

You got yourself into a corner didn't you?

:lol:

Lord Sidious
10th May 2011, 11:54
This is THE big picture.
As I said, bill provided us all with an opportunity on a plate.
I took it.
I got your attention, you see what I am on about.
We can't work towards a solution whilst we are divided, can we?
Didn't I do this to you guys on the wormtongue thread?

Pffft! What evrrrrr!!

You got yourself into a corner didn't you?

:lol:

Erm, no, I am exactly where I want to be, thanks for asking.
By all means, laugh.
You have five to ten years more.
Then you won't laugh.
Do something now, let go of what you think I am doing and open your mind.

Donna O
10th May 2011, 11:55
Hi Lord Sidious, can I ask you to not re-hash the whole of Avalon's history on this thread, it isn't relevant. What are you trying to say Bill did that contributed to the break-up of Camalot?

You can ask, of course.
I will do what I have to do and this thread is here for us to discuss various issues.
I don't know what bill ''did'' there.
And I am not pointing the finger at him as if he is ''bad'' or anything like that.
Go back and read the thread from the beginning if you did not do that yet.
I am trying to unite you all again.
Like I did once before.
Stop thinking about this and just feel.
Like Obi Wan said to Luke in A New Hope, ''Let go of your conscious mind and use your feelings''
I advise you to do the same thing.

On a different note, congratulations on your promotion. :party:
I was going to post that on your profile, but you have the comments disabled.

Again, it comes down to people making their own interpretation when reading posts, I don’t believe you have any ill intentions Lord Sidious, but a person could easily assume you were taking shots at Bill by bringing Avalon and Camelot’s split into the thread. Most people know nothing about what actually happened so I don’t believe it is relevant here.

Thank you for your congratulations Lord Sid :biggrin: I didn’t realize I had comments disabled.

Lord Sidious
10th May 2011, 12:00
Again, it comes down to people making their own interpretation when reading posts, I don’t believe you have any ill intentions Lord Sidious, but a person could easily assume you were taking shots at Bill by bringing Avalon and Camelot’s split into the thread. Most people know nothing about what actually happened so I don’t believe it is relevant here.

Thank you for your congratulations Lord Sid :biggrin: I didn’t realize I had comments disabled.

I think it is relevant, it is just that I don't have all the info on it.
Yes, people could think I am doing that and some/lots do.
That is ok, that is where they are at for now.
I am rocking the boat to try and bring the issues to a head so that we can deal with them, not let them fester on and on.
And you are welcome, being a mod isn't as easy as some might think, especially on a forum with this much traffic.

Teakai
10th May 2011, 12:03
Erm, no, I am exactly where I want to be, thanks for asking.
By all means, laugh.
You have five to ten years more.
Then you won't laugh.
Do something now, let go of what you think I am doing and open your mind.

What I think you're doing?

What are you doing?

I see you demanded an apology from Bill. But if your motives are as you say they are, then shouldn't you have thanked him instead for the opportunity you feel he gave you to expand on the bigger picture?

DoubleHelix
10th May 2011, 12:09
You have five to ten years more.


Can I ask who or what your source of information is for you to come to such a conclusion ???

Lord Sidious
10th May 2011, 12:11
Erm, no, I am exactly where I want to be, thanks for asking.
By all means, laugh.
You have five to ten years more.
Then you won't laugh.
Do something now, let go of what you think I am doing and open your mind.

What I think you're doing?

What are you doing?

I see you demanded an apology from Bill. But if your motives are as you say they are, then shouldn't you have thanked him instead for the opportunity you feel he gave you to expand on the bigger picture?

That is an excellent question.
I have said that he presented me with the opportunity to do this, but not just for me, for all of us.
So yes, thanks Bill, much appreciated.




You have five to ten years more.


Can I ask who or what your source of information is for you to come to such a conclusion ???

Atticus.

DevilPigeon
10th May 2011, 12:16
...then shouldn't you have thanked him instead for the opportunity you feel he gave you to expand on the bigger picture?

No, no, no! This to me is an example of one of the issues. The problems are being bypassed, not addressed, and also turning it into a falsely positive outcome!

Teakai
10th May 2011, 12:19
Erm, no, I am exactly where I want to be, thanks for asking.
By all means, laugh.
You have five to ten years more.
Then you won't laugh.
Do something now, let go of what you think I am doing and open your mind.

What I think you're doing?

What are you doing?

I see you demanded an apology from Bill. But if your motives are as you say they are, then shouldn't you have thanked him instead for the opportunity you feel he gave you to expand on the bigger picture?

That is an excellent question.
I have said that he presented me with the opportunity to do this, but not just for me, for all of us.
So yes, thanks Bill, much appreciated.

So...did Bill's comment in regard to Aboriginal elders and whites offend you or were you only pretending for the sake of 'The Bigger Picture'? And if it did, how exactly?

Lord Sidious
10th May 2011, 12:22
...then shouldn't you have thanked him instead for the opportunity you feel he gave you to expand on the bigger picture?

No, no, no! This to me is an example of one of the issues. The problems are being bypassed, not addressed, and also turning it into a falsely positive outcome!

I think she was right.
It is only fair and right to acknowledge the good whilst acknowledging the mistake.
It brings balance to the force.
Now, where are those damn jedi? :p






Erm, no, I am exactly where I want to be, thanks for asking.
By all means, laugh.
You have five to ten years more.
Then you won't laugh.
Do something now, let go of what you think I am doing and open your mind.

What I think you're doing?

What are you doing?

I see you demanded an apology from Bill. But if your motives are as you say they are, then shouldn't you have thanked him instead for the opportunity you feel he gave you to expand on the bigger picture?

That is an excellent question.
I have said that he presented me with the opportunity to do this, but not just for me, for all of us.
So yes, thanks Bill, much appreciated.

So...did Bill's comment in regard to Aboriginal elders and whites offend you or were you only pretending for the sake of 'The Bigger Picture'? And if it did, how exactly?

I would appreciate it if you read my words.
I have already stated the answer, without your implication of some type of negative intent.
Why do you have a need to paint me in a negative light?
Do you think you are helping/defending bill by doing this?
Because if you do, you are mistaken, only the truth will help bill.
That is why I have done what I have done.

Teakai
10th May 2011, 12:22
...then shouldn't you have thanked him instead for the opportunity you feel he gave you to expand on the bigger picture?

No, no, no! This to me is an example of one of the issues. The problems are being bypassed, not addressed, and also turning it into a falsely positive outcome!

How is this an example of one of those issues - and what is the issue you are thinking of?

What problems are being bypassed and what is the falsely positive outcome you are foreseeing, Devilpigeon?

Teakai
10th May 2011, 12:29
I am rocking the boat to try and bring the issues to a head so that we can deal with them, not let them fester on and on.
And you are welcome, being a mod isn't as easy as some might think, especially on a forum with this much traffic.

Then, M'lord, why don't you just come straight out and tell us what you see the issues as being?
Then we can assess whether they are genuine or perceived.

¤=[Post Update]=¤



I would appreciate it if you read my words.
I have already stated the answer, without your implication of some type of negative intent.
Why do you have a need to paint me in a negative light?
Do you think you are helping/defending bill by doing this?
Because if you do, you are mistaken, only the truth will help bill.
That is why I have done what I have done.

I read ALL your words and I still fail to see your issue of contention. Is what Bill said untrue or true? Are you offended by the truth of it, perhaps?

I'm not interested in helping or defending anything but the truth. I don't play mind games - they bore me.

DevilPigeon
10th May 2011, 12:29
...then shouldn't you have thanked him instead for the opportunity you feel he gave you to expand on the bigger picture?

No, no, no! This to me is an example of one of the issues. The problems are being bypassed, not addressed, and also turning it into a falsely positive outcome!

How is this an example of one of those issues - and what is the issue you are thinking of?

What problems are being bypassed and what is the falsely positive outcome you are foreseeing, Devilpigeon?

Hi Teakai

The original issue remains unresolved - the wording of his original post, and the lack of acknowledgement that his words could have been chosen better. Yes, I agree that it's caused the pages of (largely) articulate debate, and if it concludes to a positive resolution then good, thanks indeed should be attributed.

However, giving thanks prematurely leaves the risk that the issue is sidestepped.

MariaDine
10th May 2011, 12:30
http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/index.shtml

THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY proclaims THIS UNIVERSAL DECLARATION OF HUMAN RIGHTS as a common standard of achievement for all peoples and all nations, to the end that every individual and every organ of society, keeping this Declaration constantly in mind, shall strive by teaching and education to promote respect for these rights and freedoms and by progressive measures, national and international, to secure their universal and effective recognition and observance, both among the peoples of Member States themselves and among the peoples of territories under their jurisdiction.

https://www.facebook.com/pages/United-Nations-Human-Rights/207918945891587?sk=app_4949752878
Article 1.
All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.

Article 2.
Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status. Furthermore, no distinction shall be made on the basis of the political, jurisdictional or international status of the country or territory to which a person belongs, whether it be independent, trust, non-self-governing or under any other limitation of sovereignty

Namasté

Lord Sidious
10th May 2011, 12:30
I am rocking the boat to try and bring the issues to a head so that we can deal with them, not let them fester on and on.
And you are welcome, being a mod isn't as easy as some might think, especially on a forum with this much traffic.

Then, M'lord, why don't you just come straight out and tell us what you see the issues as being?
Then we can assess whether they are genuine or perceived.

Would you like me to eat the food you ordered for you too?
Part of the problem is that some of us won't think for ourselves, this thread is proof.
You are asking me questions I have answered.
If you have a problem with me/what I am doing, then that is ok, but for the love of life itself, think.
That is all that you will have to save you and yours.
And this isn't just aimed at you Teakai, it is for all of us.
The second part of your post is a good point, hence me wanting to put that part up for discussion.
I would think that if you think the issues the forum and members face are not real, then why did one forum become three?
Why are people even now contemplating leaving?




¤=[Post Update]=¤



I would appreciate it if you read my words.
I have already stated the answer, without your implication of some type of negative intent.
Why do you have a need to paint me in a negative light?
Do you think you are helping/defending bill by doing this?
Because if you do, you are mistaken, only the truth will help bill.
That is why I have done what I have done.

I read ALL your words and I still fail to see your issue of contention. Is what Bill said untrue or true? Are you offended by the truth of it, perhaps?

I'm not interested in helping or defending anything but the truth. I don't play mind games - they bore me.

No thanks, that is taking the thread backwards.
I am trying to move forward.
Sorry, but that is going to bog us down in opinions on something we have moved past.

Teakai
10th May 2011, 12:34
However, giving thanks prematurely leaves the risk that the issue is sidestepped.

Is the issue about...race?

Or is race just the cover for something deeper?

Agape
10th May 2011, 12:38
How to approach ultra-orthodox Israelite ...


http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20110509/lf_nm_life/us_israel_kosher_phones

Yiddish cell phone launches in Israel

Israel's kosher cellular phone market has a new model, a device with a Yiddish interface to help devout Jews combine tradition with modern technology.

Hundreds of thousands of mobile phones, popularly dubbed kosher because they block access to services frowned upon by ultra-Orthodox rabbis, have been operating in the Jewish state for years.

Last month, Israel's second largest mobile provider, Partner introduced what it hailed as the world's first Yiddish cell phone, manufactured by Alcatel-Lucent.

Marc Seelenfreund, CEO of Israeli Accel Telecom which imports and distributes mobile phones to all Israeli operators, had a special team of translators work for months to develop an interface entirely in Yiddish.

Yiddish, a mixture of medieval German and Hebrew, was the spoken language of millions of European Jews for centuries, but it is now spoken mostly by elderly Jews and in ultra-Orthodox communities.

Yiddish words such as chutzpah, schmaltz or schlep, may have entered the English language, but Seelenfreund said ultra-Orthodox Jews would appreciate terms like "outgoing call," "ringtone" and "vibrate" translated into Yiddish.

Seelenfreund said the market for Kosher phones was substantial, estimating there are up to 400,000 users in Israel and another 500,000 in the United States.

NO INTERNET

While handsets have become ever more sophisticated, offering increasingly high-tech features, kosher cell phones have no text messaging capabilities, Internet access or camera and block calls to sex lines.

Concerns about erotic phone services and forbidden text messaging between members of the opposite sex prompted leaders of Israel's ultra-Orthodox community to set up a rabbinical committee on Internet and cell phone use several years ago.

The words "kosher" and "approved by the rabbinical committee for telecommunications" appear on the screen when a kosher cell phone is turned on.

"There are many problems with today's phones, many temptations," said Rabbi Baruch Shraga, a member of the committee.

"One can reach very immodest places on the Internet and people will write in a text message lewd things which they would not dare say aloud. Some laws prohibit hearing a woman sing, so ringtones are also restricted," Shraga said.

Ultra-Orthodox Jews are believed to make up about 8 to 10 percent of the population of 7.7 million in Israel.

"We sell thousands of Kosher cell phones a month which also offer special features like a Jewish holiday calendar and Hassidic ringtones," said Estie Rozen, a spokeswoman for Cellcom, Israel's largest mobile operator.




The answer : You can't ...


:becky:



P.S. : I mean no offense . Years back when all the cell phone ( and internet ) boom started in big way , I was in Dharamsala and did not have, desire or approach any of these wired devices.

I endured friend thinking of me that I'm not techie enough to have email address and refused all of prospects for cell phones. All I really had was little FW radio .

There was much more program in the temple and things to absorb and digest and explore everyday and the treats and tricks of faraway western civilisation let me in peace ..

Paradoxically enough, not all of my respected brother monks were able to see the trick forwards and given all kinds of expensive cell phones ( plus some nintendo consoles ..)
that had actually very little use in that environment other than calling your friends ten times a day to make sure how you're doing.

The pinnacle occured at morning ceremony when lama beating drums had to pick up his ringing cell phone to answer some chat ..
and continued happily then..till the next call.

Lily de Cuir
10th May 2011, 12:39
Hello Everyone,

At the risk of being told to POQ ('piss off quick' in the Oz parlance), I've spent half an hour on here this morning before work, half an hour at lunchtme (because it's always fascinating to watch a brawl), and half an hour before bedtime, lovely entertainment. And you are all still going! Oh, and I started reading the original thread on Sunday! It's now Tuesday!

First of all must say I haven't read every single thread, so maybe I should abstain commenting, but I don't have 2 hours to read through everything - which leads me to ask - just what do you people on here do for a living? A lot of you must all be retired and have the money to do so, yes?

BTW I could add to the Oz debate about Aboriginal people and whites, but I have done so before on another thread. If you care to find it, search my comments. In a nutshell my ancestor was an elite, he was a 'white hat' that showed great compassion to the Aboriginal people of Australia in the 1830's. He was head of the largest company at that time in Oz and to my knowlede is still the oldest company in Oz. He was vilified for his actions and his career was ruined in one snuff by one man, Macarthur. You will never see my ancestor's name in the history books. He was very kind and respectful to our indigenous people and he paid for it, for the rest of his life, at the hands of the elites.

I know you will say I am biased and I probably am. However I have studied Australian history and Aboriginal history, including the books (2) my ancestor wrote in the 1830's. I'm glad to say both those books are now on microfysh and online with the the University of Newcastle in New South Wales, Australia, as part of Australian history units.

I say all this because despite my family's history, I am very sorry about what happened to our Aboriginal people. I didn't do anything personally, neither did my ancestor, but I still am deeply sorry. Because of white men and women, their culture has been decimated.

I have sat in university lectures and left in tears seeing what we have done to this once beautiful and sturdy culture and have hardly been able to speak because of the grief I felt with them. Their culture is a remnant now of it's former glory. I hope one day with some great thinkers, the Aboriginal community will revive their languages and culture again.

'Sorry Day' was the first and necessary step in this direction. There is a long way to go.

The film 'Rabbit Proof Fence' Bill speaks of, is just one true story of their history amongst many.

If anyone wants to PM me re my ancestors books, Title and surname, please do.

Kind regards,
Lily de Cuir