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oedilroed
12th May 2010, 21:52
I'am mildly surprised to see that no one has taken the Dane Tops tread over here to the new Avalon Forum.

To me, the significance of Dane Top's message is: that there is a body of knowledge available, independed of any "church" or organisation, and that we can regain our power by recovering our memory.
This is done by auditing; a proces that can be done between two people, using the right protocols.

Doing away with the need to believe or follow "saviours" ( ET or otherwise )

Also, Dane Tops spoke of a the undreamed of possibilities we have as humans: being able to live without eating, or sleeping - to name only a few -

At the end of the intervieuw there was a brief mentioning of a follow up intervieuw, that would make even more startling information available.
But this intervieuw has not yet apeared.
Yet, to me it seems that this is the way ahead: getting wise on how things are realy pieced toghether, especialy everything that has to do with dying and in between life experiences.

This is very critical, for my own experience with R3X auditing has revealed that there are indeed traps and dangers in the after death realm that are a real danger to the unwary and unprepared
( pain, drug, hypnosis implanting ) . And yes, there are also ET involved who pose as benevolent , but are anything but that.

The significance of the present times, with the internet (still) available, is that now, for the first time we have acces to knowledge that was hidden away for most of us.
Also, we can get in contact with people whom we would never meet, if there was no internet.

We do well to educate ourselves in to anything that increases our independance of outside authorities. This is the most important thing to do.

This is even more important than trying to survive earth changes: Eventualy we must all die, and will have to face the afterlife: what happens there will determine our future state of being.

Dane Tops has made us aware of knowledge we can aply ourselves to work on our liberation and empowerment.
We need more of that, and I realy hope that in the near future more of that will appear on Camelot or Avalon.

mmfk
13th May 2010, 08:00
i agree, this issue is of great importance!
as i've written in my thread on dianetics, i would like to start with the original basic tech. but consequently, it'd be of course very interesting to take it all even further, which you mentioned and also eg dane tops...
so, could you explain what r3x means?
also, i've also only heard of an e-meter outside hubbard's original 'dianetics' - is it really necessary?
and how could one get acquainted with more advanced tech?

thanks!

Swami
13th May 2010, 08:38
It was that story that made me buy the book.........

oedilroed
13th May 2010, 09:48
One message that also became clear in Dane Tops' letter was that while the original church of Scientology had be destroyed and corrupted by the illuminati attacks, the way ahead is like a grass roots movement: individual people helping each other independed of any "church" or "organisation"

More information on Scientology self help or do it yourself, can be found on:

About R3X: www.timetravelersclub. com : scroll down to the link about R3X

More on self help: "The resolution of mind" : www.tromhelp.com

Remote sessions: www.rolfdane.com

I myself do not work with Rolf Dane, but with another person who does remote sessions with me.
Those sessions involve an e meter who is being used by the auditor; there is no physical connection between the e meter and myself, but nevertheless this works.

It might be interesting to get hold of the plans for building an e meter yourself: those of us wise on electronics and mechanics ( like myself and my husband ) would be able to just do that.

Organisations are always vulnerable to attacks, and can be destroyed, however it is much more difficult to take out dedicated individuals who work in very small clusters: the small scale independed aplication of knowledge.
This, I believe is the way ahead for us. Becoming one's own authority by developing firsthand experience and knowledge.

Developing a forum post on this, to share information, techniques and to get into touch with each other, seems like a desirable undertaking, wholy in the spirit of Project Avalon itself.

Swami
13th May 2010, 09:53
It might be interesting to get hold of the plans for building an e meter yourself: those of us wise on electronics and mechanics ( like myself and my husband ) would be able to just do that.

http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/E-Meter/Mark-VII/index.html

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/3290589.pdf

Connecting with Sauce
14th May 2010, 14:58
http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/E-Meter/Mark-VII/index.html

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/3290589.pdf

So could I just use my digital multi-meter set to resistance with a couple of cans ? :D

oedilroed
14th May 2010, 17:15
So could I just use my digital multi-meter set to resistance with a couple of cans ? :D


Have not tried that, but suspect it will not work : there is more to the e meter than that.

oedilroed
15th May 2010, 08:31
Here is another link to TROM (self-help Scientology) : the whole text on " The resolution of mind"
http://theresolutionofmind.org/

TimeRazor
15th May 2010, 14:03
Greetings everyone,

Thanks to all who posted these links:thumb:

The DT letter really sparked an interest for me in the techniques of Dianetics because I found them to be a great help in doing Somato Emotional Release therapy.

Also, combining with the general technique of Recapitulation as per Carlos Casteneda in doing the therapy solo. The point to me seems to be to let ourselves FEEL, remember and release; this is to do shadow work .

But I am really suspicious of the 100$ fee to talk to others on Skype.:(

Respect to all

Bill Ryan
15th May 2010, 14:49
One message that also became clear in Dane Tops' letter was that while the original church of Scientology had be destroyed and corrupted by the illuminati attacks, the way ahead is like a grass roots movement: individual people helping each other independed of any "church" or "organisation"



Hi, All: this is exactly correct. To think that paths to personal freedom (of various kinds) should be guarded and monitored by a hierarchical controlling organization is a little bit of a paradox. :)

I could write a lot about this (and probably should, one day). But the genie is out of the bottle now. Most of you will not know that I was a central part of another little grass roots movement (back in 2004) which digitized all of Hubbard's books and lectures - a huge, project, actually! - and made everything freely available on the web.

The LRH materials portal (at the time) was called 0-48.com. We were quickly shut down by Church of Scientology lawyers, and at that time I never stood up and revealed my name or location. But by then it was too late - the materials were all out, and have now circulated irreversibly widely. After that I moved on to Camelot... a different challenge :)

oedilroed
15th May 2010, 16:15
But I am really suspicious of the 100$ fee to talk to others on Skype.:(

Respect to all

Yes, I understand; i was lucky in finding a auditor who does auditing for free ( as part of a learning experience in an internship)

Shop around, to find someone who does the same.
As an alternative; what skills and fields of expertise do you have ? Is there something that you can barther with your auditor ?

At any rate, it is bound that barther of Goods/ services/ expertise will become much more prominent in the future: Not only because of a collapse of monetary systems, but also because an increasing number of people just do not have suficient income available to pay for all their needs.
Barther is a way out of this, also a means to bolster your own feeling of selfworth.

Barther is something we all should have a look at: it might be prominent in our future.

TimeRazor
15th May 2010, 17:23
Hi, All: this is exactly correct. To think that paths to personal freedom (of various kinds) should be guarded and monitored by a hierarchical controlling organization is a little bit of a paradox. :)

I could write a lot about this (and probably should, one day). But the genie is out of the bottle now. Most of you will not know that I was a central part of another little grass roots movement (back in 2004) which digitized all of Hubbard's books and lectures - a huge, project, actually! - and made everything freely available on the web.

Hi Bill Ryan,
I was wondering if you could reccomend any of LRH's books? I read most of Dianetics and though some of it was useful it was mostly dated. I always thought there was something missing too... How can we get to past life material and really free ourselves?

Peace

TimeRazor
15th May 2010, 19:05
But I am really suspicious of the 100$ fee to talk to others on Skype.:(

Respect to all

Yes, I understand; i was lucky in finding a auditor who does auditing for free ( as part of a learning experience in an internship)

Shop around, to find someone who does the same.
As an alternative; what skills and fields of expertise do you have ? Is there something that you can barther with your auditor ?

At any rate, it is bound that barther of Goods/ services/ expertise will become much more prominent in the future: Not only because of a collapse of monetary systems, but also because an increasing number of people just do not have suficient income available to pay for all their needs.
Barther is a way out of this, also a means to bolster your own feeling of selfworth.

Barther is something we all should have a look at: it might be prominent in our future.[/QUOTE]

Yeah I do SER which I believe has essencially the same goal as Dianetics but with hands on the body and emphasis on feeling the emotion of the trauma which can relieve physical pain. I've had people go to the place they were before they were born, which tends to happen when the person is more "clear"

http://www.massagetherapy101.com/massage-techniques/somato-release.aspx

And yes it's true about bartering.

webyourstuff
14th February 2011, 03:09
Thanks, Bill.. I am re-reading this interview. What a mind-blower.
I was in Scientology at the time-period mentioned, confused and dismayed at how everything seemed to be going wrong.
Really a relief to know what was THE story behind my story. I really do hope you do a second Dane Tops interview.

BTW, I found Dane Tops' letter here, if any are curious:
http://www.lermanet.com/exit/exit8.html

atman
15th February 2011, 06:04
Thanks, Bill.. I am re-reading this interview. What a mind-blower.
I was in Scientology at the time-period mentioned, confused and dismayed at how everything seemed to be going wrong.
Really a relief to know what was THE story behind my story. I really do hope you do a second Dane Tops interview.

BTW, I found Dane Tops' letter here, if any are curious:
http://www.lermanet.com/exit/exit8.html

Hi webyourstuff,

I read the transcription of the "Dane Tops" interview (http://projectcamelot.org/lang/en/dane_tops_en.html) that was conducted by Bill and Kerry, as soon as it was released in late 2009.

When I read it, I remember thinking: wow, this report does contain factual information, but it also contains several inaccuracies, along with some wild speculations that I am not able to reconciliate with my own observations.

I cannot comment on the personal experiences of Dane Tops, but I do have some intimate knowledge of what went on at the international headquarters of the Sea Organization from 1978 to 1985, as I was there — first in La Quinta, then in Gilman Hot Springs, California.

Dane Tops' testimony is definitely valuable, but I personally cannot regard it as THE true history of what has caused the demise of the Church of Scientology. And while he affirms what follows with great certainty, I can only see it as an hypothesis put forth by a distant observer:


DANE: Now, the Church of Scientology was destroyed from within by the US secret government. I’m certain of this. And it was done by the use of children.

The "children" that he refers to, were for the most part adolescents and young adults. I was in daily contact with several of them for many years. They belonged to the CMO — Commodore's Messenger Organisation — a unit of communicators and personal assistants that was originally created by LRH in the early days of the Sea Org.

Now, I mentionned that the interview contains inaccuracies. I cannot go into this with great detail, right now, but here are a few selected excerpts from the interview, followed with my comments/corrections, along with some references:


KERRY: Did they go on the boat? How many children, and did they go on the boat with him?

DANE: Yeah, they were the only ones who had access to Ron. The adults couldn’t even get to him, only the children could. And it’s the children who took over the organization. The person that runs that organization today was one of those children that started out very young.


The person that runs the organization today (David Miscavige) was never on a Sea Org vessel with LRH.

Being messengers, the "children" were of course the ones who relayed most of the communications from and to LRH. But it is not true that adults could not get to LRH. I have known many people who, as adults or young adults, have had direct interactions with him.

Up to the early 80's, LRH also maintained an almost direct communication line with various Sea Org members, as he frequently recorded instructions or critiques on tape. Copies of the tapes were sent to all those concerned (the musicians or the technical compilers, for example). I have listened to countless hours of them.


DANE: Exactly. Exactly. But the children were programmed to become inhuman and not like children; they became an entity unto themselves.

Because of my own interactions with perhaps sixty different Messengers ("children") over a period of seven years, I feel like labeling this statement as utter B.S.

On the other hand, I can see why Dane Tops could have come up with this impression: in the line of duty, it is a fact that some Messengers would sometime demand compliance with the cold-blooded fervor of a dictator.

The context is important: with an acute sense of emergency, they were working against the clock to save or "clear" the planet. Plus, they were acting in accordance with an LRH directive in which he said something to the effect that the Messengers were not only his emissaries, but extensions of himself. Anything one says or does to a Messenger, one says or does to LRH...

But these messengers were not "inhuman". OK, one exception: David Miscavige — the current leader. But that is a long (and unpleasant) story, with violence and abuse at many levels.

Despite their status and their position of authority, most of the Messengers that I have known were great human beings — highly dedicated and determined, needless to say, but also capable of friendliness and rapport. One of them — now an ex-member, a loving mother and a successful business woman — worked some ten years with LRH and is currently writing a book. I cannot wait for its publication.

To conclude, I find it extremely odd that Dane Tops and his friend (an old-timer) keep refering to the Messengers as "chidren". In the Scientology culture, children are simply men or women that have not yet attained full growth.

As spiritual beings, Sea Org members are expected to accomplish any task that is demanded of them, whether they are trained or not. If not trained, they are still expected to make it go right and to operate with the knowledge and experience born of their past lives. Under most circumstances, age is not considered relevant.


DANE: I don’t know how many there were. Hundreds. In the end they fought it out. I mean at the end there were three or four of them that were fighting it out for control of the Church and they were like 12 years old, or not much older. One of them won, and he got control of that Church.


The age range is very much incorrect. Just to put things into its proper perspective, David Miscavige was almost 26 years old when LRH passed away in January of 1986.


DANE: That means he (David Miscavige - Ed.) was a late teen when he took over the Church. But he had started in the Church when he was a little, little child.

DANE'S FRIEND: He started when he was four or five.

BILL: Four or five, that’s unbelievable.

Once again, the age is way off.

David Miscavige began training/auditing around the age of 12 (according to his father).

He was 16 years old when he joined the Sea Org in Clearwater, Florida, and started to serve in the Commodore's Messenger Organisation.

About a year later (1977), he was recruited for SU ("Special Unit") and taken "over the rainbow", meaning to the secret location where LRH was stationed with his family and several Messengers and key technical and administrative personnel, along with "Cine" (the audio & film production unit).

That location was La Quinta, California. Its code name was WHQ (Winter Headquarters). LRH was living on the property.

Operations were later moved to another property, at Gilman Hot Springs, near San Jacinto/Hemet, California. Code name: SHQ (Summer Headquarters). It is also known as "Int" (International Management) or "Gold" (Golden Era Studios or Golden Era Productions - the audiovisual production unit). LRH did not live on the property.


DANE'S FRIEND: No, he wanted a deal up front and he laid it out one way or the other. They had the goods on the government and IRS. The edict from David Miscavige was: If you will give us what we want, we will not prosecute you personally, officially. And he did it up front. I mean he went there in his usual manner, used a lot of force.

DANE: So this was what, age 18 or something?

DANE'S FRIEND: Yeah. This was the time when the Church flipped over and became a legal entity with government protection and they no longer attacked the government after that.


David Miscavige was at least 30 years old when he first met with IRS officials. See the links below.


http://www.sptimes.com/TampaBay/102598/scientologypart2.html

http://www.tampabay.com/news/article1012137.ece

http://davidmiscavige.rtc.org/eng/bio/miscavige.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Miscavige


* * *

In my view, the following conclusions are undeniable:


the current Church of Scientology is but a mockery of what it was intended to be;


the current leader, David Miscavige, is corrupt to the bone (he meets all the definitions of a "suppressive person")



* * *

Several books by ex-high-ranking Sea Org members were published in the past year and a half. I know that more are currently being written or prepared for publication.

A wealth of historical information by first-hand witnesses can also be found on several blogs.

All of these accounts, all of these voices, will help to paint a clearer picture of what has really happened to Scientology.

I unfortunately do not have the time, right at this moment, to provide you with more specifics and with additional links and references, but I will gladly do so in the future, if you or others would find it useful.

Czarek
16th February 2011, 02:37
...which digitized all of Hubbard's books and lectures - a huge, project, actually! - and made everything freely available on the web.

The LRH materials portal (at the time) was called 0-48.com.

Bill, (or any one elese) How would I go about finding this material now??? From what I recall, the digitized version where off the original publications.
Thank you,
Czarek

webyourstuff
16th February 2011, 04:12
Thanks for your thoughts on this.
I do believe there are many many viewpoints on this. The value of Dane Tops is that it is closer to source of the meltdown than most. And it contained some information that completed some puzzles for me.

I have been avidly watching for whatever can be available such as individual's stories. But each of these stories is one person's viewpoint: Marc Headly, Nancy Many for starters - Aaron Saxton - (do you know what became of him? )

I, also have had some more positive experience with CMO staff. (also one Very negative experience). - enough to know there is a different version of the CMO than is portrayed by Dane Tops. It had long since ceased being a children's org, tho it still recruited a lot of kids. My understanding was that the quals for CMO were so stiff, it took someone with very little experience to be able to say they never did those experiences that disqualified a person.

Thanks for your clarifications!

I have my own story, as I'm sure you do.

atman
17th February 2011, 04:20
My previous post was somewhat rushed and I apologize for that. I meant to start it with the following introduction:


The 1982 “Dane Tops letter” or “Dane Tops debrief” (http://projectcamelot.org/Dane_Tops_letter.pdf) is, in my opinion, a very useful account and an excellent analysis of an era of crisis for the Church of Scientology.

In the context of what was happening at the time, it was not only a courageous act of whistleblowing, but also a passionate appeal to reason and to justice.

I agree 100% with the contents of that letter/debrief.

Fast-forward 27 years. Dane Tops meets Bill & Kerry and grants them an interview (http://projectcamelot.org/lang/en/dane_tops_en.html).

Again, an invaluable account, rich with historical and contextual information, from someone who has a deep understanding of Scientology and who witnessed some of its most troubling times.

I highly recommend all those interested in the history of Scientology to read the transcript of that interview (http://projectcamelot.org/lang/en/dane_tops_en.html).

Having said that, I question several of Dane Tops' conclusions, specifically those for which he has jumped from the arena of whistleblowing, per se, to the muddy fields of speculation and conjecture.

I do believe that just about anything is possible and that reality can surpass fiction.

Thinking outside the box can sometimes lead to truth when investigating events that are incomprehensible.

But let us also be logical.

A basic Scientology principle is that the "why" of a situation is seldom "over there". LRH exposes that idea in the policy letter titled "THE WHY IS GOD".

I might expound and further clarify my viewpoints in a future post...


* * *

And as Dane Tops himself wrote in his 1982 letter (http://projectcamelot.org/Dane_Tops_letter.pdf):


"It is up to us to refuse to cut our comm lines with one another and to find out ourselves if what we've heard and been told about others is true."



* * *

To webyourstuff:

Sorry, I don't know what became of Aaron Saxton (he had joined the Sea Org in 1989, in Australia — not my era and not my continent).

Marc Headley was in the Sea Org from 1990 to 2005 (after my time). I have greatly enjoyed his profilic writings on the Internet.

I have not yet read Nancy Many's book but have listened to several of her interviews.

A variety of websites containing first-hand accounts and informative articles (pro views to balanced views):


http://www.scientology-cult.com/
— Informative articles by former top insiders.

http://leavingscientology.wordpress.com//
— Intelligent and balanced articles from a former marketing executive (on staff for 35 years)

http://rediscoverscientology.com/
— Former top insiders turned whistle blowers

http://askthescientologist.blogspot.com/
— Thought-provoking articles by former Scientologists

http://www.friendsoflrh.org/
— Comparing LRH tech and policy with the revisions made under the (mis)guidance of David Miscavige

http://www.savescientology.com/
— Exposing the chasm between the current corporate and governing structure of Scientology organizations and what was intended by LRH

http://markrathbun.wordpress.com/
— Highly visited blog of a former high-ranking Sea Org executive, now an independent Scientologist

Icecold
17th February 2011, 04:35
E meter patent and Schematics.....


http://www.freepatentsonline.com/3290589.pdf


This is basically a tuneable Wheatstone bridge a device for the precision measurement of resistances.