View Full Version : Banning for misalignment
andywight
16th May 2011, 02:00
Here is the reason Paul gave for banning Chicodoodoo from Avalon (a quote from the Avalon forum Guidelines):
"Anyone who does not appear to be in alignment with the purpose and energy of the forum may be asked to leave."
There are several problems with this.
First, it is based on what "appears" to be, rather than what is. Appearances can be deceiving, and they are highly subjective. It also doesn’t help that the written word we rely on in the forums is often the source of both gross and subtle misunderstandings.
Second, the purpose and energy of the forum is very loosely defined and open to extremely broad interpretation. In this case I could argue that, Chicodoodoo was trying hard to follow the purpose and energy of the forum. The purpose of the forum from my perspective was to create a model community where people work together to solve problems, as well as being a safe place to discuss the pursuit of truth. The energy of the forum from my perspective was to be the change we wish to see in the world.
Third, no one is "asked" to leave, they are simply cut down with no due process, no transparency, and no review, at least from the perspective of the public.
How does the Avalon community view this question?
Seikou-Kishi
16th May 2011, 02:06
Oh, another one? I'll soon know this merry dance off by heart if somebody doesn't change the record lol
Dorok
16th May 2011, 02:13
Oh no...should we say goodbye to you now Andy?
There are already 2 mods watching a thread with only 2 posts...
perfectresonance
16th May 2011, 02:16
(sigh)
How does the Avalon community view this question?
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1201/1408163640_670eacaa1c.jpg
"Sir? Why are you insisting on slamming your head into a wall?"
"Because it feels so good when I stop".
I challenge you to see how good it will feel when we all stop hitting our heads on this particular wall.
Do you really think another thread will have another outcome?
99.9% of active members are happily carrying on making excellent use out of this Forum and it's collective wisdom.
You may consider this before deciding to align or not to.
Lost Soul
16th May 2011, 02:19
I think use of this forum is at the discretion of Bill and his staff. His forum, his playground, his rules.
truthseekerdan
16th May 2011, 02:22
You should have a third option: "Sent to Ignore List"
JK ;)
andywight
16th May 2011, 02:35
I would hope members that are not happy with this thread to read Mr Davis's post in its entirety. :cool:
I am curious as to why any intellectual discussion, on any non violent topic, could possibly trigger such intense criticism, and the seemingly enforced limitation on freedom of speech that some commenting on this thread seem to be advocating whether they realize it or not.
Since no one is forced to read any thread, why does anyone object to any topic on any one thread as long as it is non violent and does not blazingly be rude to anyone? It seems that you, and others prefer that there be limitation on what can and can not be discussed. Why? I don’t believe any thread has any power, except to share knowledge, opinions, and maybe, just maybe widen someone’s perspective to see more than they didn’t see before. They may not agree, but at least maybe they can begin to understand the other human’s perspective; and isn’t that the first step to peaceful co existence?
I guess I am just so puzzled because even if there was an ongoing thread of interested parties talking about this issue about how Avalon could be different, it is just virtual keyboard warriors talking….. no coup could actually take place! But more importantly no one is forced to read it. I may love to be on the debate team, but some people may prefer to be in the band. Isn’t the Avalon forum big enough for us all? Or do we really have to choose? That is what I feel all those reading this particular thread, who were upset by the thread, is forcing a point on, that should not have to be forced. Freedom of speech is healthy on so many levels for all, when done with respect.
People can talk about love and light all they want, words can be, after all very cheap. But in my opinion, until right action is shown by humans seeking to understand those they may disagree with, as long as people have fear where no real threat exists, then humans will continue to mistreat each other and this new model of society that Mr. Ryan speaks of will never come to be.
Sincerely,
Mr. Davis
Thank you Mr Davis, you are a bright beacon in these oh so muddy waters.
I'm all for banning people who are disruptive, trolls, rude people, etc. It's part of what makes this forum such a great group of people. Would I unsubscribe the same people as who have been? Who knows.
I think Chico is a great guy. If it was my forum I wouldn't have banned him. But this isn't my forum.
Harmony is a rare commodity on this planet. Must we really keep banging the same drum here? Valid or not, I'm tired of the threads being played out in dissent here. Must we make the mods jobs harder? This is a private community. It's a dictatorship. My forum is one too. If you don't like it, move on... There are so many great people here. You don't need to focus so much on Bill, and the mods IMO.
I have compassion for the mods, who I bet have a good amount of stress intake for what goes on here. I feel modding at any big forum is like a spiritual/discernment test. Especially Avalon. Maybe I'm wrong. It's just what I'm intuitively getting.
I made a thread not long ago voicing my dissent about one of Bill's/Inelia's theories/beliefs. Albeit very respectfully. I did not get censored. An admin even thanked my post. It's not like all dissent is censored... I think it's the specific manner in which it is done that could be the problem...
Oh no...should we say goodbye to you now Andy?
There are already 2 mods watching a thread with only 2 posts...
My thoughts too Dorok. :(
Dorok
16th May 2011, 02:57
I'm as stubborn as they come about principles and hypocrisy, and there are a couple mods here who can attest to that.
However distasteful I may find it, I have had to change my own perception about this place from 'how I think things should be' to a trickier version of weighing my benefit of participating here against anything I perceive is imperfect. It's similar to how I resolve to continuing living in the USA when the gov't knuckleheads continue destroying the principles it was conceived with. It might not be a popular view with TPTB here, but if I can live with the Patriot Act, I can tolerate how the mods perform their duties.
I will strive to continue here in good standing as long as I get value for it.
For those who read this and feel the need to respond to me in a negative fashion with allusion to this being a craven or selfish attitude, I invite you to keep it to yourself. You will push buttons that will invoke very nasty feelings from me, and that would be far out of alignment with this forum. As a gesture to you in advance, I assure you that I have already begun not posting some replies and not thanking some of your posts.
Anyone else feel a chill?
perfectresonance
16th May 2011, 03:16
Andy, a straight question if I may: Are you following the path of others before you where you are going to intentionally create contentious threads to the point where the mods really have no other choice left but to unsubscribe your account?
And does this trigger the next person on the schedule to come out to protest your "sudden" and "behind the scenes" banning without debate, parole or any recourse?
Because to me, if you are not doing that, you better stop, because you are accidentally doing the very same thing, and we wouldn't want to lose you as a member by accident.
andywight
16th May 2011, 03:35
Andy, a straight question if I may: Are you following the path of others before you where you are going to intentionally create contentious threads to the point where the mods really have no other choice left but to unsubscribe your account?
And does this trigger the next person on the schedule to come out to protest your "sudden" and "behind the scenes" banning without debate, parole or any recourse?
Because to me, if you are not doing that, you better stop, because you are accidentally doing the very same thing, and we wouldn't want to lose you as a member by accident.
Mr Perfectresonance,
A straight answer if I may, no! and thank you for your concern.
Anchor
16th May 2011, 04:09
First, it is based on what "appears" to be, rather than what is. Appearances can be deceiving, and they are highly subjective. It also doesn’t help that the written word we rely on in the forums is often the source of both gross and subtle misunderstandings.
It is not beyond the majority of members to trust the moderators?
Mistakes are made which can be corrected.
More often than not though, they were not mistakes, they are spun into mistakes for the purposes of starting divisive arguments.
Second, the purpose and energy of the forum is very loosely defined and open to extremely broad interpretation. In this case I could argue that, Chicodoodoo was trying hard to follow the purpose and energy of the forum. The purpose of the forum from my perspective was to create a model community where people work together to solve problems, as well as being a safe place to discuss the pursuit of truth. The energy of the forum from my perspective was to be the change we wish to see in the world.
You may be right on this, and Bill should address that in my view. However what this forum is definately not about is the satisfying the majority view. This forum is Bills and you will like the way he runs it :)
What this forum is also not about it is cultivating and magnifying divisive issues that directly affect the forum, is administration or leadership. If you want to keep doing that, just leave instead.
Third, no one is "asked" to leave, they are simply cut down with no due process, no transparency, and no review, at least from the perspective of the public.
So what? Firstly it is not a public forum and is not accountable in that way. Most people int his position if asked to leave wont - like noisy drunks at a party, and end up having to ejected.
How does the Avalon community view this question?
I think it is a tired old argument, I think that it demonstrates clearly to me that it is certainly time for you to leave and everyone else that does not like the way this forum has turned out these days should join you.
Do I sound pissed off?
With threads like this, yes I am.
John..
andywight
16th May 2011, 04:49
I think it is a tired old argument, I think that it demonstrates clearly to me that it is certainly time for you to leave and everyone else that does not like the way this forum has turned out these days should join you.
Do I sound pissed off?
With threads like this, yes I am.
John..
Not at all and thank you for your input. :cool:
Decibellistics
16th May 2011, 05:33
This is how I figure. Say what you have to say, show evidence if you have any, and go about the conversation in a cordial manner without being a pious ass about it.
I personally don't agree with things on the forum, and have had flak for shooting out ideas and opinions.....it can be a good thing.
But there is energy vampirism and reaction. People tend to hook people and start an unending argument based on A. them being right and B. condescending tone and or script. and on a more esoteric malevolent level, to steal people's energy and get off on the rush of the conflict or the diffusion of conflict in feigned ways.
The firey burn within the gut causes a reaction to things said. Which can cause you to bite more or less. And so it begins. You, No you, No this, No that, well you blah blah, no if you look at this then you will understand, well you still havent this and that. Notice the you!
Basically a steamy pile of ****.
So considering that differing opinion can cause a heated debate.....one has to realize that a forum, by the ancient greek standard is a place to gather and conversate and learn. But it isn't a place to take a stance of power over a person due to said experience and opinion or importance of self.
I think that's the real issue at hand. People won't be banned for a differing opinion, we can all agree to disagree, but people will definately be banned if they are going to act like a dick.
So it boils down to the art of your argument. Can you be a kind loving soul and share knowledge based on personal research, personal experience, and a bit of personal conviction and background as to why you think you are right?
Debunking a topic can be an absolutely essential tool, but when the knowledge of a researched subject causes you to think other people are absolutely retarded for believing in a certain way is a sad sad thing..I am guilty of such in my youth, and it causes severe depression, and I still struggle with it. Back then murder and anger to the "infidel" (too soon lol......PTB and general group think and separation and factional aspects that are employed onto society.) But now I realize that you have to look at it from the view of a mother. A mother who is saddened because the one's she loves around them, who are of the same genetic make up of them, are being tricked and molded into ways of life and thinking that are absolutely detrimental for there well being.
The only thing a person can do is try to show the person closest to them at the moment is loved, and that there is a grandiose universe surrounding us that we have been told doesn't exist. But we are remembering that it does. And the beauty of this realization fills one with vigor, and strength, and excitement, and happiness, and a longing to learn as much as they possibly can from all different types of mindset, culture, and opinion. This is what I think humanity is struggling with. We have an uncanny ability to melt into modes of habit and pleasure and pride. And taken to the most serious levels it can cause people just as much of a withdrawal and fight that one would expect from a severe alcoholic or a heroin addict who is dopesick.
People have a long way to go for healing. But I think the image of what could be is a beautiful thing. I would hope it fuels people to want to detach and learn and experience. But we are battling a control system based around these negative institutions and beliefs. People have become too comfortable. Knowledge can be an arduous, yes, task, but we have so much **** in the way that at this point it is going to be a monumental task to rehabilitate.
NO OFFENSE. I absolutely hate when people on this forum call the general public sheeple. Are they under educated in topics of such, yes. Do they act in a herd mentality, yes. Can this lead to problems?...of course. But still these are your brethren. We need to learn how to coincide with one another in a group based effort based on knowledge....The whole point of corruption, and conspiracy, and the filtering and supression of knowledge is to make sure other people don't find out.....DUH. But this whole fiasco we are living in is caused by the separation into factions and the whole point of being part of one team is to win against another team. Sorry, I'm rambling again.......
Life is hard man. There's a million and one ways to collaborate and make things better. But people have been tricked into being lazy, and confrontational, and a billion different external factors that causes so much frustration, depression, boredom, and parasitic instances. And the sad part is, any person that tries to stand up and do something about it, will be ****ing murdered. It's a weird time, hopefully a massive amount of personal and individual work and maybe a lil divine intervention could cause inspiration for humanity to realize that the **** has got to go..........
Paix!
Liiiiiittle off topic LOL
sunnyrap
16th May 2011, 05:35
I have to say I've been amazingly entertained by this whole discussion--especially when members use humor to disarm otherwise volatile remarks.
But, having participated in many online groups over the past dozen years, it just rarely fails to happen that peep's buttons get pushed by either understanding OR misunderstanding another's communication. For such times, there must be proper 'rules of engagement' for respectfully thrashing out differences. (just today, someone reminded me of the 'Duchess of Queensbury Rules', made popular in the John Wayne classic 'The Quiet Man'). This is what makes all the difference in keeping members and keeping a civil and respectful forum without resorting to real censorship. Clearly define the rules. Break 'em once, you are read the rules again and get a reprimand; break 'em twice, you are blocked for a period of time then put on parole; break 'em three times, you are permanently out of the group. This formula has worked well for many groups.
Just a suggestion. And as someone pointed out earlier: Bill's forum, Bill's rules of engagement. Everything else is just input.
ThePythonicCow
16th May 2011, 05:43
Nice rant, Decibellistics. I am going to Thank it, even though I didn't read every word carefully.
There is probably something in there I disagree with (given you said a mouthful and given I have many views.) There is even the risk that someone will taunt me with that Thanks and a quote from your rant, at some future point -- perhaps it might even be someone who has also objected vehemently to Bill Ryan noticing who thanked what in forming his views. What a twisted web we weave at times.
Good point on labeling people as "sheeple." I have done so. I might do well to remember your point the next time I am inclined to do so.
perfectresonance
16th May 2011, 06:03
I have to say I've been amazingly entertained by this whole discussion--especially when members use humor to disarm otherwise volatile remarks.
In that spirit, I've decided to start a game of chance.
http://news.silveroakcasino.com/wp-content/uploads/sports-betting-delaware.jpg
The objective? Pick the date that Andy will be unsubscribed from Avalon.
"Never" is a valid choice and not at all discouraged.
PM me your picks everyone, and I'll update this post with people's guesses.
The prize? A dinner date with Bill or Inelia. Or Bill and Inelia. Not sure. Might have to ask them first. :madgrin:
Malcolm Linus
16th May 2011, 06:14
Third, no one is "asked" to leave, they are simply cut down with no due process, no transparency, and no review, at least from the perspective of the public.
So what? Firstly it is not a public forum and is not accountable in that way. Most people int his position if asked to leave wont - like noisy drunks at a party, and end up having to ejected.
All should have the opportunity to leave by his or her own choice, even if the end result will be their person ejected by force. It's a gentleman's attitude, and I would very much like to see those who choose to give their time to defend this community go the extra step here, as I suspect it would be a good reflection of Bill Ryan's ideals. In my opinion, it is not a great sacrifice to send a PM asking the person to leave before doing it by force. It would be a show of respect to those who appreciate the gentleman's way. An ejection without notice can seem brutal to the minds that observe.
NancyV
16th May 2011, 06:25
I have to say I've been amazingly entertained by this whole discussion--especially when members use humor to disarm otherwise volatile remarks.
In that spirit, I've decided to start a game of chance.
http://news.silveroakcasino.com/wp-content/uploads/sports-betting-delaware.jpg
The objective? Pick the date that Andy will be unsubscribed from Avalon.
"Never" is a valid choice and not at all discouraged.
PM me your picks everyone, and I'll update this post with people's guesses.
The prize? A dinner date with Bill or Inelia. Or Bill and Inelia. Not sure. Might have to ask them first. :madgrin:
If the prize was a dinner date with YOU I would be tempted. You have such a great smile that I almost always cannot resist thanking your posts. In fact, I think you should remove your photo since it has undue influence in you getting more THANKS. This is obviously an unfair tactic!
Nancy :)
jackovesk
16th May 2011, 06:28
NO OFFENSE. I absolutely hate when people on this forum call the general public sheeple. Are they under educated in topics of such, yes. Do they act in a herd mentality, yes. Can this lead to problems?...of course. But still these are your brethren. We need to learn how to coincide with one another in a group based effort based on knowledge....The whole point of corruption, and conspiracy, and the filtering and supression of knowledge is to make sure other people don't find out.....DUH. But this whole fiasco we are living in is caused by the separation into factions and the whole point of being part of one team is to win against another team.
No Offense taken Decibellistics, I just used the word 'Sheeple' in one of my posts. Sorry...
I have a different view - I don't see the word 'Sheeple' as a Derogative term at all...
I see it as a term of 'Awakening', to question/challenge anothers view on the type of information one absorbs/listens to?
Have they heard both sides of the story, can they change their MSM/GOVT. diet and start questioning what they are being constantly fed Day In/Day Out?
In summary I don't find the word 'Sheeple' offensive or divisive that creates further dissension or discord...
To me its simply a word used to prompt a questioning of ones long-term belief system...
:focus:
learninglight
16th May 2011, 06:29
Hi all
Imo we need to remember WE are INVITED to join this forum; When you are accepted as a member here its due to YOU AGREEING with the rules and regs, which are in place to keep this forum running to the best of it's ability; No one makes you join, it's your choice.
I don't agree with everything that has taken place with members going BUT i accept the requirements set in place here, when/if there comes a time i feel i can no longer live by them i will move on.
It's not what you say but HOW you say it that seems to be the problem with some members who have gone, i mean for example if one of my kids spoke to me the way some put things into words on here i would go ape**** even now as old as they are!!
Its sad to see members go but thats life, we learn we move on
This forum IS BILLS to do as he wishes, we are guests here, lets just remember that and get on with doing what we are invited here to do. No disrespect meant to anyone just my feelings and honest opinion.
much love
Anchor
16th May 2011, 06:50
All should have the opportunity to leave by his or her own choice, even if the end result will be their person ejected by force. It's a gentleman's attitude, and I would very much like to see those who choose to give their time to defend this community go the extra step here, as I suspect it would be a good reflection of Bill Ryan's ideals.
Very often this is actually the case!
Also I would say people here are not stupid. They KNOW when they are skating on thin ice! The time for being gentlemanly is before you push it too far - pretty simple.
--
I've been thinking about this thread in general.
The notion of being "martyred" by being "unfairly" ejected from a forum, for pontificating about how a forum should be run (that isn't yours in the first place) is hilarious. Think about it, it is a cosmic joke. Forums are an analogy. An illusion within the illusion! This is a trap I once found myself in on this very forum. Seriously if you cant get out of that one, then how do you expect to get out of the real one that poses as the Real Life that is being ever distorted by TPTB ?
We all buy into these illusions at different levels, and consequently, for many of us humans, dealing with changes in them, and especially changes that are driven by irreconcilable differences is never going to be easy. Leaving a forum by any means is not the hardest thing anyone can do in life, there are far bigger challenges :)
Personally I have learned to back away from getting too wrapped up in various forum structures which at one time we may have become particularly accustomed to. They get changed against our preferences and it can be quite annoying, even upsetting. Especially when it is done with a sledge hammer, but it happens - and it doesn't matter.
We harvest what wisdom we may, and then we either adapt or move on.
This forum is not the forum it was when it started, it has been through several phases since the original Project Camalot/Project Avalon days - that does not make it bad, it makes it different.
John..
I would hope members that are not happy with this thread to read Mr Davis's post in its entirety. :cool:
I am curious as to why any intellectual discussion, on any non violent topic, could possibly trigger such intense criticism, and the seemingly enforced limitation on freedom of speech that some commenting on this thread seem to be advocating whether they realize it or not.
Since no one is forced to read any thread, why does anyone object to any topic on any one thread as long as it is non violent and does not blazingly be rude to anyone? It seems that you, and others prefer that there be limitation on what can and can not be discussed. Why? I don’t believe any thread has any power, except to share knowledge, opinions, and maybe, just maybe widen someone’s perspective to see more than they didn’t see before. They may not agree, but at least maybe they can begin to understand the other human’s perspective; and isn’t that the first step to peaceful co existence?
I guess I am just so puzzled because even if there was an ongoing thread of interested parties talking about this issue about how Avalon could be different, it is just virtual keyboard warriors talking….. no coup could actually take place! But more importantly no one is forced to read it. I may love to be on the debate team, but some people may prefer to be in the band. Isn’t the Avalon forum big enough for us all? Or do we really have to choose? That is what I feel all those reading this particular thread, who were upset by the thread, is forcing a point on, that should not have to be forced. Freedom of speech is healthy on so many levels for all, when done with respect.
People can talk about love and light all they want, words can be, after all very cheap. But in my opinion, until right action is shown by humans seeking to understand those they may disagree with, as long as people have fear where no real threat exists, then humans will continue to mistreat each other and this new model of society that Mr. Ryan speaks of will never come to be.
Sincerely,
Mr. Davis
Thank you Mr Davis, you are a bright beacon in these oh so muddy waters.
See when you say that it casts doubt on all of us. Do you see why we've had enough?
The funniest thing about this thread is that yesterday I looked at Chico's friends and wondered
who would start the next thread...It had to be somebody already posting on Nexus...I guess
my intuition was correct...;)
Peace
K
perfectresonance
16th May 2011, 07:17
If the prize was a dinner date with YOU I would be tempted. You have such a great smile that I almost always cannot resist thanking your posts. In fact, I think you should remove your photo since it has undue influence in you getting more THANKS. This is obviously an unfair tactic!Nancy :)
I think this thread can stand a bit of off-topic banter, so here goes:
Dinner with me? :o Golly Nancy... I'm not often lost for words... Thank you.
As for my photo. First the serious bit: I decided that if I was going to take people to task on this forum, I could at least show my real face so people knew who they were dealing with. Now the humourous bit: I'm sorry about the pic - did you expect me to pick one with a surly look? One person that used to be a member here called it my "5#1T-eating grin", and I've carried it as a badge of honour since.
Serious again: I am aware of the power of a smile. In fact, when the Christchurch NZ earthquake (2nd one with deaths) was unfolding and I was participating in discussions, I took the photo down as it seemed so absurd to have that photo next to text discussing potential missing and dead family of fellow Avalon members.
I tell you what - to stop you from perfectresonance induced TFS (Thanking Fatigue Syndrome), why don't YOU find me a pic to put up to be displayed with my posts, and I'll move the 5#1T-eating grin to my profile instead?
P
ThePythonicCow
16th May 2011, 07:23
All should have the opportunity to leave by his or her own choice, even if the end result will be their person ejected by force. It's a gentleman's attitude, and I would very much like to see those who choose to give their time to defend this community go the extra step here, as I suspect it would be a good reflection of Bill Ryan's ideals. In my opinion, it is not a great sacrifice to send a PM asking the person to leave before doing it by force. It would be a show of respect to those who appreciate the gentleman's way. An ejection without notice can seem brutal to the minds that observe.
Your suggestion presents a quandary to me. Involuntary dismissals are typically issued for someone we determine is using their presence here in ways harmful to the forum. Giving them a further platform, in public on the forum, to continue that behavior, seems counter-productive to me.
We also do not, except in really egregious cases, dismiss a member on first offense. We will make it clear, by various means including "vacations", Private Messages, comments on the forum and deleting (yes - occasionally censoring) posts or parts of posts, that we seek changes in the members behavior.
Instead, those dismissed can argue their case in private, by sending email to staff@projectavalon.net. Such does happen in a fair percentage of cases. Sometimes we read the messages sent by those just dismissed and find more evidence that we did the right thing. Sometimes we find genuine remorse and intent to behave well on the forum. In the later case, we have (at least once that I am aware of) reversed our dismissal and welcomed the person back.
NancyV
16th May 2011, 07:28
If the prize was a dinner date with YOU I would be tempted. You have such a great smile that I almost always cannot resist thanking your posts. In fact, I think you should remove your photo since it has undue influence in you getting more THANKS. This is obviously an unfair tactic!Nancy :)
I think this thread can stand a bit of off-topic banter, so here goes:
Dinner with me? :o Golly Nancy... I'm not often lost for words... Thank you.
As for my photo. First the serious bit: I decided that if I was going to take people to task on this forum, I could at least show my real face so people knew who they were dealing with. Now the humourous bit: I'm sorry about the pic - did you expect me to pick one with a surly look? One person that used to be a member here called it my "5#1T-eating grin", and I've carried it as a badge of honour since.
Serious again: I am aware of the power of a smile. In fact, when the Christchurch NZ earthquake (2nd one with deaths) was unfolding and I was participating in discussions, I took the photo down as it seemed so absurd to have that photo next to text discussing potential missing and dead family of fellow Avalon members.
I tell you what - to stop you from perfectresonance induced TFS (Thanking Fatigue Syndrome), why don't YOU find me a pic to put up to be displayed with my posts, and I'll move the 5#1T-eating grin to my profile instead?
P
Well if we're being serious I would like the photo to STAY! I love it! Every time I look at it I smile.
Nancy :hug: :clap2:
Donna O
16th May 2011, 07:36
Perhaps if those few of us who are unhappy take a deep breath and take a moment or two contemplating the sky, the garden, something beautiful that is around us. Think of those we love dearly and try to extend some of that love to our fellow Avalonians....
You may be surprised if I told you just how much love and sunshine is spread around the ‘Mod’s room’, . It has been an absolute pleasure from the moment I stepped in there and if any Avalonian has a thought that any one of them is not a nice person; that anyone of them is out to harm, censor or divide the community….think again!
We are talking dedication, devotion and the absolute best of intentions. I can only hope to follow in their example.
You Avalonians are the best forum crowd I have ever come across and I know that everyone in the 'Mod room' feels the same - including Bill ;)
perfectresonance
16th May 2011, 07:38
Well if we're being serious I would like the photo to STAY! I love it! Every time I look at it I smile.
Isn't that just magic? :luv:
Imagine if ALL of us put our BEST big smile photos on our posts?
I wonder if we'd find it easier to be nice to people?
2xB4dbdNSXY
I hope one day, you'll join us.
And the world will live as one.
Sowelu
16th May 2011, 08:12
I think we need a 3 strike process. 1.. 2... 3.. then StTTTTTTTTTRIKE ur out.
Friendly debating is not the same as being malicious towards anothers beliefs/opinions.
I feel most of us do have a good handle on the difference.
People just need to triple edit their "angry" posts/threads and THINK REAAAAAAAAAAAAALLY HARD before clicking submit.
How will this be percieved? how many will see this? Who is this really for?
IS THIS NECESSARY?
Humble Janitor
16th May 2011, 08:24
Dissenting voices MUST be allowed.
Why do you think that there's another forum full of former Avalonians? Obviously, SOMETHING alienated them.
Shezbeth
16th May 2011, 08:53
Personally, I like Chicodoodoo. I like his energy, and his willingess to push the envelope.
However.
It does not do to play hopscotch in a potential minefield.
Just sayin',.... :croc:
gigha
16th May 2011, 09:16
Nelly.. you could not give me enough
of anything to be a mod on Avalon.
my hat off to you all..
past and present .xx
buckminster fuller
16th May 2011, 11:07
Personally, I like Chicodoodoo. I like his energy, and his willingess to push the envelope.
However.
It does not do to play hopscotch in a potential minefield.
Just sayin',.... :croc:
I don't think chico was "playing". What is really the purpose behind a post like this one ? Is it like switching on the projector lights on you ? A display of your very own wiseness ? It is precisely that kind of attitude that forced chico in a corner before he got overwhelmed with sheeps getting ego rushes fueled by the fear of judgement from other members.
Collabos.
Peace
shijo
16th May 2011, 11:27
(sigh)
How does the Avalon community view this question?
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1201/1408163640_670eacaa1c.jpg
"Sir? Why are you insisting on slamming your head into a wall?"
"Because it feels so good when I stop".
I challenge you to see how good it will feel when we all stop hitting our heads on this particular wall.
Do you really think another thread will have another outcome?
99.9% of active members are happily carrying on making excellent use out of this Forum and it's collective wisdom.
You may consider this before deciding to align or not to.
i dont usually get involved in this stuff here but an individual matters, an individual life may just be worth more than the universe,depends how deep the compassion goes i guess, i would personally give them all another go at it and see how it goes,we miss most of them really....
Lord Sidious
16th May 2011, 11:57
I have to say I've been amazingly entertained by this whole discussion--especially when members use humor to disarm otherwise volatile remarks.
In that spirit, I've decided to start a game of chance.
http://news.silveroakcasino.com/wp-content/uploads/sports-betting-delaware.jpg
The objective? Pick the date that Andy will be unsubscribed from Avalon.
"Never" is a valid choice and not at all discouraged.
PM me your picks everyone, and I'll update this post with people's guesses.
The prize? A dinner date with Bill or Inelia. Or Bill and Inelia. Not sure. Might have to ask them first. :madgrin:
Even though I doubt it happening, let me just tell ya, don't you get knocked off perfectnuggetry.
You manage to bring a sense of positivity to the forum that is needed.
If you do get banned, I will have to hunt you down and carrot ya. :p
Not too bad at all, for a kiwi that is.:cool:
andywight
16th May 2011, 12:59
Personally, I like Chicodoodoo. I like his energy, and his willingess to push the envelope.
However.
It does not do to play hopscotch in a potential minefield.
Just sayin',.... :croc:
I don't think chico was "playing". What is really the purpose behind a post like this one ? Is it like switching on the projector lights on you ? A display of your very own wiseness ? It is precisely that kind of attitude that forced chico in a corner before he got overwhelmed with sheeps getting ego rushes fueled by the fear of judgement from other members.
Collabos.
Peace
Well said Mr buckminster fuller, thank you.
Shezbeth
16th May 2011, 18:44
I don't think chico was "playing". What is really the purpose behind a post like this one ? Is it like switching on the projector lights on you ? A display of your very own wiseness ? It is precisely that kind of attitude that forced chico in a corner before he got overwhelmed with sheeps getting ego rushes fueled by the fear of judgement from other members.
:laugh: You take things too seriously.
No, you're right. He wasn't 'playing', so I will expand on the metaphor.
Having already been given a week 'vacation' he knew full well what he was getting himself into. Jumping around on the same grounds, poking the same sore spot,... sorry, those cheeky metaphors again.
<ahem>
Exhibiting the same behavior that got him suspended in the first place is not a good way to go about objecting to the suspension OR the state of affairs in the place of suspension. Consequently his voice, one of the most passionate/prominant voices on this message board has been silenced indefinitely. While there is the chance that his banning may be revoked at some point, odds are he has been banned to the detriment of those who never got a chance to hear from him or interact with him. His only recourse is to go elsewhere which is not a bad thing, it just is. Still, there are better and more effective ways to voice dissent.
Thank you for recognizing my wisdom, though it was not intended as self-aggrandizement. :hippie:
Afterthought - Traitor to whom pray tell?
qbeac
16th May 2011, 19:50
Here is the reason Paul gave for banning Chicodoodoo from Avalon (a quote from the Avalon forum Guidelines)…. (…….)
How does the Avalon community view this question?
Hi everyone, 5 stars to this Poll started by andywight. Congratulations to you, Andy!
In Post 193 (pag. 10), NancyV wrote:
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?20545-Censorship-here&p=219729&viewfull=1#post219729
This forum [Avalon]… is going along just fine for most of us. A few people want to reorganize a few thousand people…
NancyV says “most” of us and “few” versus “thousand.”
But so far the Poll is not reflecting the estimation done by NancyV. In fact, so far it’s showing the opposite: there are more people who prefer option 2 of the Poll.
So, we will wait and see if that first tendency remains the same or changes.
Also, in my opinion, there are at least (but not only) two very important concepts (or key pieces of information) that apply directly to this discussion: 1) the JFK speech titled “The President and the Press”, and 2) the concept of Freedom of speech (or expression):
Post #127, pag. 7. JFK speech, “The President and the Press” (1961)
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?20545-Censorship-here&p=219355&viewfull=1#post219355
Post #253, pag 13. Freedom of speech
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?20545-Censorship-here&p=220517&viewfull=1#post220517
Without taking into consideration the wisdom and spirit of the information explained by JFK in that speech and the profound implications of the concept of Freedom of speech, I don’t think this debate could be properly understood, analyzed, or put into context.
ThePythonicCow
16th May 2011, 20:53
qbeac - I did respond to your question regarding JFK's speech. However I did not respond to any of your four attempts to ask it:
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?20545-Censorship-here&p=219355&viewfull=1#post219355
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?20545-Censorship-here&p=219499&viewfull=1#post219499
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?20545-Censorship-here&p=220517&viewfull=1#post220517
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?20597-Banning-for-misalignment&p=220532&viewfull=1#post220532
Rather I responded to sandy, when she referenced your "question". My sense was that she was asking in good faith, and deserved an answer. You can read my reply to sandy at Post #227 of Censorship here? (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?20545-Censorship-here&p=219958&viewfull=1#post219958).
At some point, I consider repeatedly asking the same question to be a form of trolling.
I cannot tell, not being a mind reader, whether you are intentionally disrupting for the sake of disruption, or whether you honestly believe that it is important to run this forum the way you envision, and are stirring the pot with the intention of creating a ground swell of demand for such changes. But having made the case for whatever changes you have in mind, and the reasons therefore, several moderators and supportive members have explained, with some care, what we do, why we do it, and that we intend to continue doing it (moderating the content and membership of this forum.)
Once that became crystal clear, continuing to rattle the cages for change serves no useful purpose ... leaving me to speculate what harmful purpose you might have in mind.
nearing
16th May 2011, 20:58
Oh man, i really liked Chicodoodoo.
I have to say I've been amazingly entertained by this whole discussion--especially when members use humor to disarm otherwise volatile remarks.
In that spirit, I've decided to start a game of chance.
http://news.silveroakcasino.com/wp-content/uploads/sports-betting-delaware.jpg
The objective? Pick the date that Andy will be unsubscribed from Avalon.
"Never" is a valid choice and not at all discouraged.
PM me your picks everyone, and I'll update this post with people's guesses.
The prize? A dinner date with Bill or Inelia. Or Bill and Inelia. Not sure. Might have to ask them first. :madgrin:
perfectresonance i like where your heads at! i'm not sure if you're serious but i actually think it's a great idea! if people here are going to try to get banned, we might as well have some fun in the process. nothing more spiritual than fun, imo. and i don't care how old you are, everybody likes prizes.
the problem is, members will likely be picking the same banishment date, so we'll have to submit the time we think the banishment will occur - without going over. we'll make it sort of price is right-ish. whoever is closest wins a prize. of course, this was your idea so the nuances will be up to you.
sounds like fun to me. p.resonance, maybe you should start a poll;) to test the waters.
Rocky_Shorz
16th May 2011, 21:00
walks by another room with the same conversation...
reaches out, pulls the door shut quietly...
screws it shut and radios the chopper to haul the container away...
DevilPigeon
16th May 2011, 21:22
I have to say I've been amazingly entertained by this whole discussion--especially when members use humor to disarm otherwise volatile remarks.
In that spirit, I've decided to start a game of chance.
http://news.silveroakcasino.com/wp-content/uploads/sports-betting-delaware.jpg
The objective? Pick the date that Andy will be unsubscribed from Avalon.
"Never" is a valid choice and not at all discouraged.
PM me your picks everyone, and I'll update this post with people's guesses.
The prize? A dinner date with Bill or Inelia. Or Bill and Inelia. Not sure. Might have to ask them first. :madgrin:
I tell you what, if Andy (or anyone else for that matter) gets unsubscribed for simply creating a thread that not everyone agrees with, where he's not being uncivil, attacking anyone personally or anything like that, then you'd better start a competition based on what date you think I'd stick around until.
If people don't like a thread, don't participate in it! Jeez.
Rocky_Shorz
16th May 2011, 21:36
a mod asked him not to start this thread on this discussion which he ignored... Strike 1
attempting to create dissent on Avalon, which he had been warned strike 2...
tempted by the nugget master to let it go, for a fresh bunch of carrots...
watches perfectresonance as he sneaks in and takes Andy's bat...
:dance3::dance3::dance3::fans::popcorn::popcorn::nhl_checking:
andywight
16th May 2011, 21:46
a mod asked him not to start this thread on this discussion which he ignored... Strike 1
attempting to create dissent on Avalon, which he had been warned strike 2...
tempted by the nugget master to let it go, for a fresh bunch of carrots...
watches perfectresonance as he sneaks in and takes Andy's bat...
:dance3::dance3::dance3::fans::popcorn::popcorn::nhl_checking:
My apologies Mr Rocky_Shorz I don't understand this post or who you are referring to, could you please explain it again in a little more detail.
Thanks in advance
Andy
Rocky_Shorz
16th May 2011, 22:10
you did start the thread before Paul asked for it not to be created...
It could be a multiple choice Poll, and its title could be, for instance (there are many more options):
Do you think this forum could be improved by a checks and balances system, jury, etc.?
Please don't.
A poll asking about something that is not going to happen would be yet further distraction, further stirring of the pot.
It would also be more attractive to those who don't like the way this forum is currently, than it would to those are off busy doing other things on this forum, so the results would be biased.
so I guess you still have a few strikes left...
go for the carrots... ;)
Come on chaps lets all try and find some middle ground.
We're ALL DISSIDENTS it's we iz ere innit. ;)
love and peace
K
Belle
16th May 2011, 22:35
Dissenting voices MUST be allowed.
Why do you think that there's another forum full of former Avalonians? Obviously, SOMETHING alienated them.
With all respect, Humble Janitor, dissenting voices are allowed. It is the manner of dissent that is the issue, imo.
Some people do not simply express their point of view, they provoke and challenge....sometimes disrespecting other members in the process. Personally, I do not like feeling like I've been cornered, back against the wall, and intimidated into offering an explanation why I disagree with the challenger. I prefer a more civil and respectful exchange, where we both voice opinions without harassment.
Sometimes you just have to know when to let something go and move on.
andywight
16th May 2011, 22:35
you did start the thread before Paul asked for it not to be created...
It could be a multiple choice Poll, and its title could be, for instance (there are many more options):
Do you think this forum could be improved by a checks and balances system, jury, etc.?
Please don't.
A poll asking about something that is not going to happen would be yet further distraction, further stirring of the pot.
It would also be more attractive to those who don't like the way this forum is currently, than it would to those are off busy doing other things on this forum, so the results would be biased.
so I guess you still have a few strikes left...
go for the carrots... ;)
Thank you for clearing this up, some what.
Again I apologize for my lack of understanding and not being so good with the cryptic! but I am not aware of any warnings from anybody about "attempting to create dissent on Avalon", but of course, if I've overlooked something by all means please point it out to me.
Regards
Andy :confused:
steve_a
18th May 2011, 09:37
Hi andywright,
Although I agree that differences of opinion are part of our day to day and should be respected, I think that everybody is treating this forum far too seriously. This, like other forums should be considered entertainment. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying there aren't serious points being made in the forum, but the moment that someone comes on to the forum in a serious frameset, it's easy to get separated from rhyme and reason.
I can only speak pesonally, but entering the forum on any given day, I look through 95% fluff and find perhaps 5% of something that might spark some interest in me - like this thread - and of that 5% that might spark some interest, perhaps another 5% where I reckon a comment would be justified.
I seem to be visiting this forum less and less these days and commenting a lot less mainly because the different threads seem to cover the same ground. I remember of yesteryear when the forum was vibrant with a good cross section of minds all joining together and collaborating to the common good. These days it seems that a lot of quality has been lost and it's more like one section of the forum following another with a few nuggets of intellectual conversation punctuating the air.
One could ask why I'm still here if I feel this way. I don't know, call me sentimental. Perhaps I'm waiting for this lull of said intellectual discourse to pass and perhaps a new (old - if you get my drift) vibration to reign so that this community can get back on to the path this forum was originally meant to cover.
In the meantime I visit other forums, which I never used to do, where they help me fill in the lacunas which I feel are being over supplied at the moment here.
Best regards,
Steve
Here is the reason Paul gave for banning Chicodoodoo from Avalon (a quote from the Avalon forum Guidelines):
"Anyone who does not appear to be in alignment with the purpose and energy of the forum may be asked to leave."
There are several problems with this.
First, it is based on what "appears" to be, rather than what is. Appearances can be deceiving, and they are highly subjective. It also doesn’t help that the written word we rely on in the forums is often the source of both gross and subtle misunderstandings.
Second, the purpose and energy of the forum is very loosely defined and open to extremely broad interpretation. In this case I could argue that, Chicodoodoo was trying hard to follow the purpose and energy of the forum. The purpose of the forum from my perspective was to create a model community where people work together to solve problems, as well as being a safe place to discuss the pursuit of truth. The energy of the forum from my perspective was to be the change we wish to see in the world.
Third, no one is "asked" to leave, they are simply cut down with no due process, no transparency, and no review, at least from the perspective of the public.
How does the Avalon community view this question?
The One
18th May 2011, 09:52
Understanding is everything
loveandgratitude
18th May 2011, 11:05
Identifying a Troll on a Site - I found this and thought it was a great guide for understanding Trolls and people who want to create disharmony and division on a forum.
The first step to dealing with trolls is learning how to recognize them. The following traits are clues:
* Does the person ask the same questions worded in different ways? Does the person ignore suggestions or responses from other members of the community? If the community has a frequently asked question (FAQ) section, does the person seemingly refuse to read it?
* Has the person posted inflammatory remarks that have no real substance to them?
* Does he or she make it a habit to post messages that include insults and put-downs?
* Does he or she respond to other members in a purely negative, critical way?
* Does the person post messages that are generally off-topic? Does he or she seem to want only attention rather than discuss the topic at hand?
* Does the person resurrect old conversations or discussions that were once controversial within the community? Some trolls enjoy bringing back old arguments to encourage dissent within a group.
* When confronted with a counter argument, does the person in question change tactics rather than answer the points made by another member? Does the person employ logical fallacies within their posts?
If the answer to these questions is yes, there's a good chance you're dealing with a troll. Whether the member is consciously trying to troll the community or not is another matter. There are times when even respected members of an online community might behave like a troll. But if it's a new member who is very active and displays these qualities, you've probably got a real troll on your hands.
-Definition----
An "Internet troll" or "Forum Troll" is a person who posts outrageous message to bait people to answer. Trolls delight in sowing discord on the forums. A troll is someone who inspires flaming rhetoric, someone who is purposely provoking and pulling people into flaming discussion. Flaming discussions usually end with name calling and a flame war.
A classic troll tries to make us believe that he is a skeptic. He is divisive and argumentative with need-to-be-right attitude, "searching for the truth", flaming discussion, and sometimes insulting people or provoking people to insult him. A troll is usually an expert in reusing the same words of its opponents and in turning it against them.
While he tries to present himself as a skeptic looking for truth ... his messages usually sound as if it is the responsibility of other forum members to provide evidence that what forum is all about is legitimate.
He (and in at least 90% of cases it is he) tries to start arguments and upset people.
Sometimes, he is skeptical, trying to scare people, trying to plant fear in their hearts. Sometimes, Internet troll is trying to spin conflicting information, is questioning in an insincere manner, flaming discussion, insulting people, turning people against each other, harassing forum members, ignoring warnings from forum moderators.
Trolling is a form of harassment that can take over a discussion. Well meaning defenders can create chaos by responding to trolls. The best response is to ignore it, or to report a message to a forum moderator. TPU moderators usually move troll messages to the jail and may even ban trolls after a few unheeded warnings. Negative emotions stirred up by trolls leak over into other discussions.
Set boundaries
Whether you have a blog, a forum, or a membership site, don’t let others trash it. It’s not fair to what you’ve built, but much more important, it’s not fair to other users.
Who gets to decide what’s over the line? You do. You can create a formal code of conduct or comment policy (always a good idea) or go with your gut, but don’t be afraid to step in and put an end to bad behavior.
No matter what policies you put in place, you’ll have those who try to obey the letter of the law while violating the spirit. Trolls love loopholes. Stay firm and listen to your gut. If your instincts tell you this is a troll trying to yank your chain, you’re probably right.
You may choose to allow a few potshots directed at you. Depending on the situation, that can show strength and confidence on your part.
But it’s never a good idea to let a user attack another community member. The argument will escalate at sickening speed, with users dividing into armed camps and going to war. The experience sours pretty quickly for everyone.
DNFTT
This is an old Usenet acronym, standing for “Do not feed the troll.”
A troll loves attention more than anything else. That’s her payoff for coming onto your site and stinking the place up.
Never reward a troll. Delete her comments as soon as you see them. If you think the person is going to be a persistent problem, block her from posting.
Do not give her any attention whatsoever. The game is no fun if the troll can’t get you to rise to the bait.
It can be really hard to avoid the temptation to defend yourself. Trolls are fantastic at pushing buttons and getting a reaction. They hone their skills over months and sometimes, in truly pathetic cases, years. It’s tempting to think that you can make a reasonable argument to convince the troll of the error of her ways, but trolls don’t work that way.
How about constructive criticism?
Does this mean that you should delete anything negative that shows up in your comments or forum?
Not at all. Truly constructive criticism is usually easy to spot. It’s respectful. It allows for the other person’s opinion, even if strongly disagreeing with it. It assumes good faith on the part of everyone in the discussion.
Every community seems to have its devil’s advocate, who makes a point of criticizing everything and everyone “for the sake of discussion.” Whether or not this person contributes value to your community is your decision to make. Your gut will tell you if the person is adding value or just poking sticks in beehives.
When the troll’s not on your site
Sometimes the troll doesn’t have the guts to kick you on your own site (or has been tossed off for bad behavior), and will either post garbage on their own blog or, more often, spread the slime in comments on other sites.
You have two options. The wisest is often to remember DNFTT. Usually, one of your true fans will show up to defend your honor.
Another option that can be satisfying is to show up and make a mild, pleasant comment. This shows the troll that yes, you’ve seen the behavior, but it’s not bothering you. This is unlikely to affect the troll much one way or the other, but I’ve seen it spark a tiny sense of decency in the crowd of gawkers gathered around.
It’s very important to never link to a troll, whether the person is trashing you or someone else. Links are attention, and attention is troll food. DNFTT.
If you’re going to create online authority, you’ll need to accept the responsibilities and not just the privileges. Cleaning out the messes made by trolls is an unpleasant maintenance task, but an important one.
7481
The One
18th May 2011, 11:21
Identifying a Troll on a Site - I found this and thought it was a great guide for understanding Trolls and people who want to create disharmony and division on a forum.
The first step to dealing with trolls is learning how to recognize them. The following traits are clues:
So so wrong in many ways i dont really think you should be going down this path Identifying a Troll on a Site ,These are your individual thaughts and maybe some others so lets not create another distraction.Most people on here came here for a reason if there are people on here trying to do what you say then more fool them.I for one have more important things to do then spend time troll searching or maybe i am a troll,i search the truth
No one person can ever change the truth, but the truth, once learned, can and will change the
person
loveandgratitude
18th May 2011, 11:46
So so wrong in many ways i dont really think you should be going down this path Identifying a Troll on a Site ,These are your individual thaughts and maybe some others so lets not create another distraction.Most people on here came here for a reason if there are people on here trying to do what you say then more fool them.I for one have more important things to do then spend time troll searching or maybe i am a troll,i search the truth
No one person can ever change the truth, but the truth, once learned, can and will change the
person
This had already happened. The question is how to deal with it. Further into the discussion is some measures of how Moderators can deal with this problem in the future.
The One
18th May 2011, 12:16
This had already happened. The question is how to deal with it. Further into the discussion is some measures of how Moderators can deal with this problem in the future
I agree it has happened the thing is its all around us its how we deal with it.For me i do take notice i just dont let it bother me.
xxx
Fred Steeves
18th May 2011, 12:47
If you do get banned, I will have to hunt you down and carrot ya. :p
Care to rephrase that one? I'm just sayin...:shocked:
Cheers,
Fred S.
Flash
18th May 2011, 12:48
Identifying a Troll on a Site - I found this and thought it was a great guide for understanding Trolls and people who want to create disharmony and division on a forum.
The first step to dealing with trolls is learning how to recognize them. The following traits are clues:
* Does the person ask the same questions worded in different ways? Does the person ignore suggestions or responses from other members of the community? If the community has a frequently asked question (FAQ) section, does the person seemingly refuse to read it?
* Has the person posted inflammatory remarks that have no real substance to them?
* Does he or she make it a habit to post messages that include insults and put-downs?
* Does he or she respond to other members in a purely negative, critical way?
* Does the person post messages that are generally off-topic? Does he or she seem to want only attention rather than discuss the topic at hand?
* Does the person resurrect old conversations or discussions that were once controversial within the community? Some trolls enjoy bringing back old arguments to encourage dissent within a group.
* When confronted with a counter argument, does the person in question change tactics rather than answer the points made by another member? Does the person employ logical fallacies within their posts?
If the answer to these questions is yes, there's a good chance you're dealing with a troll. Whether the member is consciously trying to troll the community or not is another matter. There are times when even respected members of an online community might behave like a troll. But if it's a new member who is very active and displays these qualities, you've probably got a real troll on your hands.
-Definition----
An "Internet troll" or "Forum Troll" is a person who posts outrageous message to bait people to answer. Trolls delight in sowing discord on the forums. A troll is someone who inspires flaming rhetoric, someone who is purposely provoking and pulling people into flaming discussion. Flaming discussions usually end with name calling and a flame war.
A classic troll tries to make us believe that he is a skeptic. He is divisive and argumentative with need-to-be-right attitude, "searching for the truth", flaming discussion, and sometimes insulting people or provoking people to insult him. A troll is usually an expert in reusing the same words of its opponents and in turning it against them.
While he tries to present himself as a skeptic looking for truth ... his messages usually sound as if it is the responsibility of other forum members to provide evidence that what forum is all about is legitimate.
He (and in at least 90% of cases it is he) tries to start arguments and upset people.
Sometimes, he is skeptical, trying to scare people, trying to plant fear in their hearts. Sometimes, Internet troll is trying to spin conflicting information, is questioning in an insincere manner, flaming discussion, insulting people, turning people against each other, harassing forum members, ignoring warnings from forum moderators.
Trolling is a form of harassment that can take over a discussion. Well meaning defenders can create chaos by responding to trolls. The best response is to ignore it, or to report a message to a forum moderator. TPU moderators usually move troll messages to the jail and may even ban trolls after a few unheeded warnings. Negative emotions stirred up by trolls leak over into other discussions.
Set boundaries
Whether you have a blog, a forum, or a membership site, don’t let others trash it. It’s not fair to what you’ve built, but much more important, it’s not fair to other users.
Who gets to decide what’s over the line? You do. You can create a formal code of conduct or comment policy (always a good idea) or go with your gut, but don’t be afraid to step in and put an end to bad behavior.
No matter what policies you put in place, you’ll have those who try to obey the letter of the law while violating the spirit. Trolls love loopholes. Stay firm and listen to your gut. If your instincts tell you this is a troll trying to yank your chain, you’re probably right.
You may choose to allow a few potshots directed at you. Depending on the situation, that can show strength and confidence on your part.
But it’s never a good idea to let a user attack another community member. The argument will escalate at sickening speed, with users dividing into armed camps and going to war. The experience sours pretty quickly for everyone.
DNFTT
This is an old Usenet acronym, standing for “Do not feed the troll.”
A troll loves attention more than anything else. That’s her payoff for coming onto your site and stinking the place up.
Never reward a troll. Delete her comments as soon as you see them. If you think the person is going to be a persistent problem, block her from posting.
Do not give her any attention whatsoever. The game is no fun if the troll can’t get you to rise to the bait.
It can be really hard to avoid the temptation to defend yourself. Trolls are fantastic at pushing buttons and getting a reaction. They hone their skills over months and sometimes, in truly pathetic cases, years. It’s tempting to think that you can make a reasonable argument to convince the troll of the error of her ways, but trolls don’t work that way.
How about constructive criticism?
Does this mean that you should delete anything negative that shows up in your comments or forum?
Not at all. Truly constructive criticism is usually easy to spot. It’s respectful. It allows for the other person’s opinion, even if strongly disagreeing with it. It assumes good faith on the part of everyone in the discussion.
Every community seems to have its devil’s advocate, who makes a point of criticizing everything and everyone “for the sake of discussion.” Whether or not this person contributes value to your community is your decision to make. Your gut will tell you if the person is adding value or just poking sticks in beehives.
When the troll’s not on your site
Sometimes the troll doesn’t have the guts to kick you on your own site (or has been tossed off for bad behavior), and will either post garbage on their own blog or, more often, spread the slime in comments on other sites.
You have two options. The wisest is often to remember DNFTT. Usually, one of your true fans will show up to defend your honor.
Another option that can be satisfying is to show up and make a mild, pleasant comment. This shows the troll that yes, you’ve seen the behavior, but it’s not bothering you. This is unlikely to affect the troll much one way or the other, but I’ve seen it spark a tiny sense of decency in the crowd of gawkers gathered around.
It’s very important to never link to a troll, whether the person is trashing you or someone else. Links are attention, and attention is troll food. DNFTT.
If you’re going to create online authority, you’ll need to accept the responsibilities and not just the privileges. Cleaning out the messes made by trolls is an unpleasant maintenance task, but an important one.
7481
Finally, finally, a description behavior based of what a throll is. I have been asking and requesting it a few times. Thanks Loveandgratitude, now I know what it is being talked about. AND NOW, we can have a behavior based way of judging thread for their harmful content.
Just deciding someone is out based on how tired we are of hearing him is not enough imho. It is based on personal views (even if you are 10 judges, meaning mods - which can lead to cross contamination, since you are working together often), and not objective.
When leading any kind of group, objectivity and very clear well established behavioral guidelines (often based on values and beliefs) is absolutely essential in order to avoid misjudgment and aggravation.
Just look at the last videos on police mischief in Philadelphia. This stemmed from lack of understanding of the laws and the behaviors that are allowed or not, as well as some biaises from the mod (in that case the policeman). They released the guy when they realised the laws and behaviors were within well described limits.
Same here, in order to avoid disgrunted ex members or actual members and threads that have no end of what should or should not have been done.
Reprehensible behaviors as to be as clear as as SMART objectives, meaning specific, measurable (yes we can count the behaviors), attainable (anyone can behave within the guidelines), reasonable (in view of the context, here internations multilingual multicultural and written), and time base (how much of the reprehensible behavior in how much time is tolerated or not). Otherwise, it will always seems like it is judgment based on flimsy decisions or the flavor of the day.
Now, thanks to loveandgratitude, behavioral guidelines could be designed from the premises above.
It would make mods job much easier and less controversial as well as create less disgrunted members or ex-members.
Now, the guidelines have to be drafted. For this, Bill and mods have to be involved and want to do it.
TimelessDimensions
18th May 2011, 17:08
Free Will prevails against all things but Unconditional Love..
steve_a
18th May 2011, 17:16
Hi loveandgratitude,
I think you just described 99% of the people who enter in internet forums. We must all live under bridges waiting for the Billy Goats Gruff to pass by. I think if we don't do some of the things that you mentioned, like push for the truth, push a few respectable buttons, open subjects up for discussion, then what are we doing here? Are we just to sit here and accept everything that is told to us? That is very dangerous. Then here ceases to become a forum. The very meaning of a forum is a place where things are discussed and debated.
Mods don't need to recognize trolls, they just need to keep the discussions withing the forum guidelines, even if posts at times can be scathing, they aren't necessarily breaking forum guidelines. Unfortunately there are some Mods who are a little 'trigger happy' and ban threads based on assumption rather than based on infringed guidelines. Some close threads then check to see if the guidelines are broken, a little like that law that was passed, in the US I think it was, where people can be arrested because the powers that be think they might commit a crime. How does one measure the margen? What happened to one is innocent until proven guilty? Does that make sense?
I understand that there has been a new turnover of 'staff' and that each one is eager to show their service, but I know that eventually they will settle down. It's human nature. As for the forum in itself, only the future will answer that. Without trying to sound too much like a troll, things will get better.....
Best regards,
Steve
Lord Sidious
18th May 2011, 17:18
Free Will prevails against all things but Unconditional Love..
That is an excellent observation as a stand alone comment.
andywight
18th May 2011, 17:18
Hi Mr Steve_a
I hope you were referring to me as andywright, cus I'm right all the time? :cool:
Flash
18th May 2011, 17:26
Hi loveandgratitude,
I think you just described 99% of the people who enter in internet forums. We must all live under bridges waiting for the Billy Goats Gruff to pass by. I think if we don't do some of the things that you mentioned, like push for the truth, push a few respectable buttons, open subjects up for discussion, then what are we doing here? Are we just to sit here and accept everything that is told to us? That is very dangerous. Then here ceases to become a forum. The very meaning of a forum is a place where things are discussed and debated.
Mods don't need to recognize trolls, they just need to keep the discussions withing the forum guidelines, even if posts at times can be scathing, they aren't necessarily breaking forum guidelines. Unfortunately there are some Mods who are a little 'trigger happy' and ban threads based on assumption rather than based on infringed guidelines. Some close threads then check to see if the guidelines are broken, a little like that law that was passed, in the US I think it was, where people can be arrested because the powers that be think they might commit a crime. How does one measure the margen? What happened to one is innocent until proven guilty? Does that make sense?
I understand that there has been a new turnover of 'staff' and that each one is eager to show their service, but I know that eventually they will settle down. It's human nature. As for the forum in itself, only the future will answer that. Without trying to sound too much like a troll, things will get better.....
Best regards,
Steve
Point well taken Steve, their job is to keep the threads going smoothly. And for this, some behaviors may sometimes have to be curtailed. If it is going to be, better have some clear guidelines. They do not have to be precisely what loveandgratitude described. They have of course to be adapted. No?
steve_a
18th May 2011, 17:41
Hi andywight,
I just realized. I have a friend in the UK called Andy Wright and of course you are nearly always right. From now on I'll call you andynearlyalwayswright!
Best regards,
Steve
Hi Mr Steve_a
I hope you were referring to me as andywright, cus I'm right all the time? :cool:
andywight
18th May 2011, 17:47
Hi andywight,
I just realized. I have a friend in the UK called Andy Wright and of course you are nearly always right. From now on I'll call you andynearlyalwayswright!
Best regards,
Steve
Hi Mr Steve_a
I hope you were referring to me as andywright, cus I'm right all the time? :cool:
I always strive to please :humble:
TimelessDimensions
18th May 2011, 17:48
Free Will prevails against all things but Unconditional Love..
That is an excellent observation as a stand alone comment.
Thanks, and I pulled it out of my own A-H ;)
steve_a
18th May 2011, 17:50
Hi Flash,
I think there is a danger to over think what guidelines are necessary for an online forum. All forums have basically the same rules, ATS, Mists of Avalon, Godlikeproductions, Nexus etc.
The problem is when one starts to make up specific policy which leaves huge holes for interpretation. If I, for example, complain or show frustration, am I not keeping withing the realms of what the forum is wanting from it's members? Would I be sent on a holiday (great Mafia talk) ? Would I get taken out? Don't try and over think what the forum is about, otherwise that will stifle many from their thoughts and honest, candid opinions.
Best regards,
Steve
Point well taken Steve, their job is to keep the threads going smoothly. And for this, some behaviors may sometimes have to be curtailed. If it is going to be, better have some clear guidelines. They do not have to be precisely what loveandgratitude described. They have of course to be adapted. No?
Limor Wolf
18th May 2011, 17:57
Hey you guys,about betting on someone's potential leave from the forum.please refrain from doing that,as a joke or not.i find this slightly out of place.
I would like to say that the general intent is that the forum will always sail on smooth waters,however as Anchor said earlier:" people here know when they are skating on thin ice".
~*&^ Peace and quiet and good energies to us all ~*&^
Limor
ThePythonicCow
18th May 2011, 18:56
Finally, finally, a description behavior based of what a throll is. I have been asking and requesting it a few times. Thanks Loveandgratitude, now I know what it is being talked about. AND NOW, we can have a behavior based way of judging thread for their harmful content.
...
Now, the guidelines have to be drafted. For this, Bill and mods have to be involved and want to do it.
Yes - a good description (in my view.)
However - I am skeptical that changes in guidelines would help much.
As can be seen from some of the other replies, one man's troll is another man's truth seeker.
After a point, group norms are formed in a more intuitive, dynamically evolving, process.
andywight
18th May 2011, 19:44
Hey you guys,about betting on someone's potential leave from the forum.please refrain from doing that,as a joke or not.i find this slightly out of place.
Just for the record, I have no problem with any members running a house on my purported banishment date!
In fact I find these posts very informative as to character of the individuals involved. :cool:
Daft Ada
18th May 2011, 20:00
This place is just falling appart isn't it, I have been away for some time having major surgery for bowel cancer, just before I left the forum was ticking over nicely with everyone mostly getting on and dealing with all the outside goings on in the world that we are all so concerned with.
After having half my guts ripped out I come back to find everyone at eachothers throats, people leaving and threats flying around all over the place. my god what's going on? Must be those damn chemtrails or something. How the hell are you lot going to turn this planet into the utopia we want it to be, and unite against any bad aliens and the PTB, if you can't even get on and live together in this virtual world in here :confused: I despair I really do
This place is just falling appart isn't it, I have been away for some time having major surgery for bowel cancer, just before I left the forum was ticking over nicely with everyone mostly getting on and dealing with all the outside goings on in the world that we are all so concerned with.
After having half my guts ripped out I come back to find everyone at eachothers throats, people leaving and threats flying around all over the place. my god what's going on? Must be those damn chemtrails or something. How the hell are you lot going to turn this planet into the utopia we want it to be, and unite against any bad aliens and the PTB, if you can't even get on and live together in this virtual world in here :confused: I despair I really do
Wish you a speedy recovery.
Kind of put's things in to perspective.
Best wishes
Ace
Daft Ada
18th May 2011, 20:14
Thanks Ace mate
Thanks Ace mate
You are more than welcome
You stay strong.
Ace
andywight
18th May 2011, 20:32
I would like to say that the general intent is that the forum will always sail on a smooth waters,however as Anchor said earlier:" people here know when they are skating on thin ice".
Hmmm! if I was at all paranoid, which of course I'm not, I would almost think that Limor's last statement was meant for me. :blink:
I think a more apt statement to make, Limor please excuse my arrogance for wanting to edit you, would be that the whole of the "human race" right now is skating on thin ice!
qbeac
18th May 2011, 21:50
…I have been away for some time having major surgery for bowel cancer…
Hi Daft Ada, sorry to hear about your cancer surgery and I hope you recover from it soon.
And just as a brief off-topic comment (since the subject is important), I don’t know if you are aware of a German doctor called Dr. Hamer and his GNM (German New Medicine)...?
I have researched Dr. Hamer in depth and, imo, there is no doubt whatsoever that he has found the cause and the cure for cancer, as well as for just about other diseases, but the elite is suppressing it. I could explain this subject in detail, but perhaps in another thread specifically dedicated to it.
For now, just two very brief comments:
1) Cancer is not what they have told us it is at all. Conventional medicine has been totally distorted (and falsified) to hide the truth about cancer and its solution.
2) I posted the basic info about Dr. Hamer (links, videos, conferences, etc.) in this post:
Post #874, pag 44. Dr. Hamer finds the cure for cancer and the elite suppress it
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?10620-EVOLUTION-A-clarifying-post-on-behalf-of-Charles&p=92908&viewfull=1#post92908
Btw, I have the telephone numbers of several Spanish doctors in Madrid (Spain) who are applying Dr. Hamer’s cure with great success, more than conventional medicine.
dddanieljjjamesss
18th May 2011, 22:37
I liked chico,
despite disagreeing with him
ALL THE TIME
and this being the internet, we need to take everything with more than a grain of salt
nobody knows nothin bout nobody cept thru the window of a few small words
Karma Ninja
18th May 2011, 23:26
I also enjoyed reading Chico's comments and disagreed with him most of the time too.
I wish he could have understood what was being asked of him and delivered his message in a more constructive way. The onus was on him to change his approach and he chose his fate by returning with such a deliberately negative and confrontational thread. The mods did what they had to do and it remains the majority of members who agree with the decision. One man's good is another man's evil and both are a part of our souls.
buckminster fuller
18th May 2011, 23:35
I also enjoyed reading Chico's comments and disagreed with him most of the time too.
I wish he could have understood what was being asked of him and delivered his message in a more constructive way. The onus was on him to change his approach and he chose his fate by returning with such a deliberately negative and confrontational thread. The mods did what they had to do and it remains the majority of members who agree with the decision. One man's good is another man's evil and both are a part of our souls.
The pole results right now is :
Be rejected and banned:
13 votes 22.81%
Be accepted as a dissenting voice:
44 votes 77.19%
Based on the given reason why chico got banned, the results don't show that people agree with the decision made.
No good or evil needed to explain what happened really...
Unconditional love did show its conditional side.
Peace
Karma Ninja
18th May 2011, 23:46
I also enjoyed reading Chico's comments and disagreed with him most of the time too.
I wish he could have understood what was being asked of him and delivered his message in a more constructive way. The onus was on him to change his approach and he chose his fate by returning with such a deliberately negative and confrontational thread. The mods did what they had to do and it remains the majority of members who agree with the decision. One man's good is another man's evil and both are a part of our souls.
The pole results right now is :
Be rejected and banned:
13 votes 22.81%
Be accepted as a dissenting voice:
44 votes 77.19%
Based on the given reason why chico got banned, the results don't show that people agree with the decision made.
No good or evil needed to explain what happened really...
Unconditional love did show its conditional side.
Peace
How about looking at it this way... 3,500+ members and only 57 cared at all to vote. That is a measly 1.6% of the membership. Not all who did vote disagreed with Chico's ban. I fail to see how you can jump to the conclusion that this poll shows anything other than the fact that so few cared about this dismissal that they never read or moved on immediately from the topic.
This thread shows that most members are not interested in this type of topic or the negativity and very few have bothered to offer their input into what is essentially a negative thread.
The good and evil I mention was in defense of Chico and I have previously offered my support for his right to post his opinion. I accept that Chico's intentions may have been good but his approach failed.
sandy
19th May 2011, 00:03
I also enjoyed reading Chico's comments and disagreed with him most of the time too.
I wish he could have understood what was being asked of him and delivered his message in a more constructive way. The onus was on him to change his approach and he chose his fate by returning with such a deliberately negative and confrontational thread. The mods did what they had to do and it remains the majority of members who agree with the decision. One man's good is another man's evil and both are a part of our souls.
The pole results right now is :
Be rejected and banned:
13 votes 22.81%
Be accepted as a dissenting voice:
44 votes 77.19%
Based on the given reason why chico got banned, the results don't show that people agree with the decision made.
No good or evil needed to explain what happened really...
Unconditional love did show its conditional side.
Peace
How about looking at it this way... 3,500+ members and only 57 cared at all to vote. That is a measly 1.6% of the membership. Not all who did vote disagreed with Chico's ban. I fail to see how you can jump to the conclusion that this poll shows anything other than the fact that so few cared about this dismissal that they never read or moved on immediately from the topic.
This thread shows that most members are not interested in this type of topic or the negativity and very few have bothered to offer their input into what is essentially a negative thread.
The good and evil I mention was in defense of Chico and I have previously offered my support for his right to post his opinion. I accept that Chico's intentions may have been good but his approach failed.
Dear Karma Ninja,
Personally , everything you wrote makes me very sad. The world needs unity in diversity not division because of diversity.
buckminster fuller
19th May 2011, 00:34
I also enjoyed reading Chico's comments and disagreed with him most of the time too.
I wish he could have understood what was being asked of him and delivered his message in a more constructive way. The onus was on him to change his approach and he chose his fate by returning with such a deliberately negative and confrontational thread. The mods did what they had to do and it remains the majority of members who agree with the decision. One man's good is another man's evil and both are a part of our souls.
The pole results right now is :
Be rejected and banned:
13 votes 22.81%
Be accepted as a dissenting voice:
44 votes 77.19%
Based on the given reason why chico got banned, the results don't show that people agree with the decision made.
No good or evil needed to explain what happened really...
Unconditional love did show its conditional side.
Peace
How about looking at it this way... 3,500+ members and only 57 cared at all to vote. That is a measly 1.6% of the membership. Not all who did vote disagreed with Chico's ban.
I fail to see how you can jump to the conclusion that this poll shows anything other than the fact that so few cared about this dismissal that they never read or moved on immediately from the topic.
Who said that ? I only wrote about the poles results. This pole is not about chico, it concerns him since he's been banned based on this very subjective rule that is the subject of the pole. So the people who voted in majority, de facto, are against this precise rule, or at least don't agree with it, hence with the reason why chico has been banned...
I'm aware of the low number of participants, yet, as for now, more than 2500 views for this thread. The fact that only 57 people dared to vote shows 2 things :
1- I believe that a great number of them don't take it as it is their responsibility to inquire subjects that yet concern everyone. From a communitarian perspective, and I believe this forum is a community.. do those voices count ?
2- I think some of them don't feel like taking side, since anyone on this forum can be ruled out in a snap if he appears NOT not to be in alignment with the purpose/energy of the forum. I know the pole is blind, yet, the psychology behind it is at work...
This thread shows that most members are not interested in this type of topic or the negativity and very few have bothered to offer their input into what is essentially a negative thread.
Where anti-negativity leads to negate the obvious ? What is negative is the feeling of suspicion that lies dormant in this forum today. And the recent events were not taken as an opportunity by the moderators to remove some of its weight. The purpose of this forum is, if I'm not wrong, to provide a platform for whistle-blowers and an opened forum for the sharing and analysis of the information that comes with it ? How could such endeavours be promoted in an environment where members can be kicked out at will..? I'm not implying anything here, but it is a matter of sustainable development for the forum. A matter of trust.
The good and evil I mention was in defense of Chico and I have previously offered my support for his right to post his opinion. I accept that Chico's intentions may have been good but his approach failed.
I don't think his approach failed, the forum failed him. You're right that 57 votes is really not much, not much at all compared to how many people did thank him on the forum for his wise words and his concern for all.
Peace
Lord Sidious
19th May 2011, 00:37
I also enjoyed reading Chico's comments and disagreed with him most of the time too.
I wish he could have understood what was being asked of him and delivered his message in a more constructive way. The onus was on him to change his approach and he chose his fate by returning with such a deliberately negative and confrontational thread. The mods did what they had to do and it remains the majority of members who agree with the decision. One man's good is another man's evil and both are a part of our souls.
The pole results right now is :
Be rejected and banned:
13 votes 22.81%
Be accepted as a dissenting voice:
44 votes 77.19%
Based on the given reason why chico got banned, the results don't show that people agree with the decision made.
No good or evil needed to explain what happened really...
Unconditional love did show its conditional side.
Peace
How about looking at it this way... 3,500+ members and only 57 cared at all to vote. That is a measly 1.6% of the membership. Not all who did vote disagreed with Chico's ban. I fail to see how you can jump to the conclusion that this poll shows anything other than the fact that so few cared about this dismissal that they never read or moved on immediately from the topic.
This thread shows that most members are not interested in this type of topic or the negativity and very few have bothered to offer their input into what is essentially a negative thread.
The good and evil I mention was in defense of Chico and I have previously offered my support for his right to post his opinion. I accept that Chico's intentions may have been good but his approach failed.
The other view is this, I didn't vote as neither of the options represent my view.
So, the low turn out could be the poll is too narrow in the options.
Karma Ninja
19th May 2011, 00:40
I also enjoyed reading Chico's comments and disagreed with him most of the time too.
I wish he could have understood what was being asked of him and delivered his message in a more constructive way. The onus was on him to change his approach and he chose his fate by returning with such a deliberately negative and confrontational thread. The mods did what they had to do and it remains the majority of members who agree with the decision. One man's good is another man's evil and both are a part of our souls.
The pole results right now is :
Be rejected and banned:
13 votes 22.81%
Be accepted as a dissenting voice:
44 votes 77.19%
Based on the given reason why chico got banned, the results don't show that people agree with the decision made.
No good or evil needed to explain what happened really...
Unconditional love did show its conditional side.
Peace
How about looking at it this way... 3,500+ members and only 57 cared at all to vote. That is a measly 1.6% of the membership. Not all who did vote disagreed with Chico's ban. I fail to see how you can jump to the conclusion that this poll shows anything other than the fact that so few cared about this dismissal that they never read or moved on immediately from the topic.
This thread shows that most members are not interested in this type of topic or the negativity and very few have bothered to offer their input into what is essentially a negative thread.
The good and evil I mention was in defense of Chico and I have previously offered my support for his right to post his opinion. I accept that Chico's intentions may have been good but his approach failed.
Dear Karma Ninja,
Personally , everything you wrote makes me very sad. The world needs unity in diversity not division because of diversity.
Hi Sandy
I am sorry for making you sad, it was never my intention. If you reread my posts concerning this thread and chico's being banned, you will see that I was engaged in discussing an alternative way for chico to deliver his message and was sad to see him get banned. The ban literally happened while I was writing a reply to chico. I support chico's right to be a member but dispute the findings of a poll that only has 1.6% participation. We just had an election in our country and are worried that only 60% of our population voted. I just mention those numbers to Buckminster so that there is no mistaking the massive margin for error in the poll and how no conclusions can be drawn from those same numbers. The mods asked that this poll not be started due to the divisive nature of the question. I am walking down the middle road here supporting both sides in effect.
I am all for unity in diversity and my support for chico being banned stems only from my acceptance that the decision is out of my hands. I hope my explanation can show you this and if so please accept my apology for the confusion.
Peace as always...
Karma Ninja
19th May 2011, 00:45
I also enjoyed reading Chico's comments and disagreed with him most of the time too.
I wish he could have understood what was being asked of him and delivered his message in a more constructive way. The onus was on him to change his approach and he chose his fate by returning with such a deliberately negative and confrontational thread. The mods did what they had to do and it remains the majority of members who agree with the decision. One man's good is another man's evil and both are a part of our souls.
The pole results right now is :
Be rejected and banned:
13 votes 22.81%
Be accepted as a dissenting voice:
44 votes 77.19%
Based on the given reason why chico got banned, the results don't show that people agree with the decision made.
No good or evil needed to explain what happened really...
Unconditional love did show its conditional side.
Peace
How about looking at it this way... 3,500+ members and only 57 cared at all to vote. That is a measly 1.6% of the membership. Not all who did vote disagreed with Chico's ban. I fail to see how you can jump to the conclusion that this poll shows anything other than the fact that so few cared about this dismissal that they never read or moved on immediately from the topic.
This thread shows that most members are not interested in this type of topic or the negativity and very few have bothered to offer their input into what is essentially a negative thread.
The good and evil I mention was in defense of Chico and I have previously offered my support for his right to post his opinion. I accept that Chico's intentions may have been good but his approach failed.
The other view is this, I didn't vote as neither of the options represent my view.
So, the low turn out could be the poll is too narrow in the options.
Your opinions are starting to grow on me LS ;)
sandy
19th May 2011, 01:08
How about looking at it this way... 3,500+ members and only 57 cared at all to vote. That is a measly 1.6% of the membership. Not all who did vote disagreed with Chico's ban. I fail to see how you can jump to the conclusion that this poll shows anything other than the fact that so few cared about this dismissal that they never read or moved on immediately from the topic.
This thread shows that most members are not interested in this type of topic or the negativity and very few have bothered to offer their input into what is essentially a negative thread.
The good and evil I mention was in defense of Chico and I have previously offered my support for his right to post his opinion. I accept that Chico's intentions may have been good but his approach failed.
Dear Karma Ninja,
Personally , everything you wrote makes me very sad. The world needs unity in diversity not division because of diversity.
Hi Sandy
I am sorry for making you sad, it was never my intention. If you reread my posts concerning this thread and chico's being banned, you will see that I was engaged in discussing an alternative way for chico to deliver his message and was sad to see him get banned. The ban literally happened while I was writing a reply to chico. I support chico's right to be a member but dispute the findings of a poll that only has 1.6% participation. We just had an election in our country and are worried that only 60% of our population voted. I just mention those numbers to Buckminster so that there is no mistaking the massive margin for error in the poll and how no conclusions can be drawn from those same numbers. The mods asked that this poll not be started due to the divisive nature of the question. I am walking down the middle road here supporting both sides in effect.
I am all for unity in diversity and my support for chico being banned stems only from my acceptance that the decision is out of my hands. I hope my explanation can show you this and if so please accept my apology for the confusion.
Peace as always...
Gee Karma Ninja,
I sure didn't mean for my post to be taken personally and I should have been more clear. My sadness comes in how much we as a community here at Avalon emulates the world at large.............people who just don't want the waters to do anything but run smooth for the most part.
I too like peace but I'm sure not adverse ever for supporting and standing up for "what is the right thing to do" based on my values, beliefs, etc. I often get in trouble (or use too) especially in the workforce for taking a stand for the right thing to do but I was never fired as doing the right thing and being condemned for it never holds water anywhere in the real world. That could be why this issue won't die down here as I believe what Chico was trying to do was far deeper and the right thing than many have truly comprehended IMHO.
I like what your intentions are and also agree that often finding the middle road can create a win/win in the end. :)
nearing
19th May 2011, 01:17
(((((((((((Daft Ada)))))))))))
Thoughts are with you. Speedy recovery!
Karma Ninja
19th May 2011, 01:40
Gee Karma Ninja,
I sure didn't mean for my post to be taken personally and I should have been more clear. My sadness comes in how much we as a community here at Avalon emulates the world at large.............people who just don't want the waters to do anything but run smooth for the most part.
I too like peace but I'm sure not adverse ever for supporting and standing up for "what is the right thing to do" based on my values, beliefs, etc. I often get in trouble (or use too) especially in the workforce for taking a stand for the right thing to do but I was never fired as doing the right thing and being condemned for it never holds water anywhere in the real world. That could be why this issue won't die down here as I believe what Chico was trying to do was far deeper and the right thing than many have truly comprehended IMHO.
I like what your intentions are and also agree that often finding the middle road can create a win/win in the end. :)
Sandy,
Your kind words are important to me and thank you for them. We both can remain in the middle of the road. There is plenty of room and I won't hog a lane. I sure know better than to mess with a lady from the prairies!
I think the whole issue is too pervasive for the mods to have not taken some notice and I am confident they have learned something from this as well. I have read a great deal of wisdom from their comments. Time will tell but I am ready to accept the decisions and move on from this issue.
Hope the sun shines bright in Saskatchewan!
Bill Ryan
19th May 2011, 02:07
------
Hi, All:
A quick note here. I've taken the last few days away from the forum, and have been working on other things. (Life goes on outside the Avalon Forum - as some but not all members may be aware!)
Regarding the subject of the thread, very few people understand how this works. Andy's 'poll' is naive. There are many more options. :)
For 6 months now we have been asking people to apply before joining the forum. We take the applications (and the process) very seriously, and a lot of applicants are denied. The new mods and I have worked carefully on the message we send them. (In Richard's day it was far more brutal.)
Sometimes we make a mistake, and when someone gets back to us with a genuine plea for acceptance and reconsideration, we all look at that person again. Manny will not mind my mentioning that he applied three times (or was it four?). We've all learned a lot from Manny. And I say that seriously. I love the guy.
Sometimes we ask for more information, and the applicant writes more, answering our questions. And sometimes we just say "no thanks", in the nicest way we can. We take the job very seriously, and the mods spend much more time considering applications than you would ever believe. (New mods Donna and Karelia will confirm.) :)
The point is this. I would like everyone (especially you, Andy), to understand this.
We look over everything we can find about the information someone provides.
We look at their posts on other forums to see their style, their mindset, their values, and their attitude.
We look at their blogs and websites.
We look them up on the net (and you'd be surprised what we find sometimes).
I check the 150,000 e-mails I've kept since 2006 to see if they've ever written to me before, and if so, what they said and why. (Ace will confirm this, yes?)
That's how proud of this community we are. That's how much we care. Believe me, if we did not do this, the environment would be like Godlike Productions.
So. Listen up.
Sometimes we make a mistake. The criterion is:
After a certain number of new member posts on the forum (maybe 10, maybe 100, maybe even 1000), we ask ourselves this question (and we can do this at any time):
If we'd known [... fill in this gap with anything you like ...] about this person when they first applied -- would we have invited them?
If the answer is No - then they are often uninvited. We're just correcting our error.
It's that simple. Nothing really to do with forum guidelines. It's to do with considering their application retrospectively.
Certainly nothing to do with nation-states or constitutions. This is not a public place. It's a private gathering, by invitation only. JFK's admirable rhetoric does not apply.
If you don't like this restaurant, just go and find another one. It's cool. If you hate the place (or its owner :) ), why did you come here anyway?
Moreover, if you look like you're going to wreck the joint when all we want to do is provide our guests with some wonderful nourishment, then we may throw you out. And we have the right to do that. Period.
And: it's not really about 'rules' that are broken. (Andy, we know that you have been really careful not to break any rules or breach any guidelines - it's interesting to watch!)
It's about whether, if we'd had the gift of precognition when you applied, would we have accepted you.
And we leave you with that question to ponder. It's really about intentions.
Not nearly so much about the words: words are just one of many clues about what the communicator's intentions really are. There are many ways to read people.
SKAWF
19th May 2011, 02:35
so why is it, that instead of me spending time considering how to deliver my point, on stuff like this issue,
i spend most of it writing deleting and rewriting through fear that you'll holiday me for nothing or ban me?
Karma Ninja
19th May 2011, 02:40
Because you care about being a part of this community?
so why is it, that instead of me spending time considering how to deliver my point, on stuff like this issue,
i spend most of it writing deleting and rewriting through fear that you'll holiday me for nothing or ban me?
karelia
19th May 2011, 02:52
so why is it, that instead of me spending time considering how to deliver my point, on stuff like this issue,
i spend most of it writing deleting and rewriting through fear that you'll holiday me for nothing or ban me?
Perhaps it is because communicating in writing is not easy for some, and you know this. So, in order to get across what you mean clearly and plainly, you think hard about it, which results in a lot of deleting and rewriting.
I confirm Bill's description of the application process. I'm amazed how much time and effort goes into it on the mod side. I'm amazed at some applicants, too, both in a wtf way and in an I'm-in-awe way, and that after just one afternoon. :)
SKAWF
19th May 2011, 03:33
well yeah.
the thing is, i DO want to be here.
and i would say that some of those who have voiced their concerns WANTED to be here too.
which is why i constantly try to make my point in a way that wont cause me grief or get me banned.
we are welcome to have a problem with policy as long as we do it somewhere else.
well the FACT that i'm still here, is a measure of my commitment,
and i struggle to make the point because i know how delicate things are.
but i SEE how people are removed,
and how posts have been edited,
and untrue statements left in their place.
i'm really not a trouble maker.
but maybe you should be on the recieving end,
and have them tell you about integrity.
steve
Lord Sidious
19th May 2011, 03:43
well yeah.
the thing is, i DO want to be here.
and i would say that some of those who have voiced their concerns WANTED to be here too.
which is why i constantly try to make my point in a way that wont cause me grief or get me banned.
we are welcome to have a problem with policy as long as we do it somewhere else.
well the FACT that i'm still here, is a measure of my commitment,
and i struggle to make the point because i know how delicate things are.
but i SEE how people are removed,
and how posts have been edited,
and untrue statements left in their place.
i'm really not a trouble maker.
but maybe you should be on the recieving end,
and have them tell you about integrity.
steve
Why all the stress?
I never got banned, why would you?
There is criticism and stirring.
Karma Ninja
19th May 2011, 03:47
well yeah.
the thing is, i DO want to be here.
and i would say that some of those who have voiced their concerns WANTED to be here too.
which is why i constantly try to make my point in a way that wont cause me grief or get me banned.
we are welcome to have a problem with policy as long as we do it somewhere else.
well the FACT that i'm still here, is a measure of my commitment,
and i struggle to make the point because i know how delicate things are.
but i SEE how people are removed,
and how posts have been edited,
and untrue statements left in their place.
i'm really not a trouble maker.
but maybe you should be on the recieving end,
and have them tell you about integrity.
steve
I must add that I am glad to have you here. If some of our past members had shown as much consideration they would be here too. Andywright who started this poll has shown a similar amount of consideration and he has hit on a hot button topic and I see him browsing this thread right now so he is here too. I believe he has been commended in Bills comments for handling the issue with discretion and maturity. We all CAN voice our opinions here. However we should be mindful that our posts show respect and that we don't lose sight of the intentions of this site. It can be a fine line but we should all learn to walk it.
I might feel differently if I were on the receiving end as you point out... I will continue to avoid placing myself there. I have deleted comments and decided to sleep on an issue, only to come back the next day and not address what ticked me off the night before too. That is part of what I agree is contributing to this forum.
Again my friend I am glad to have you here!
karelia
19th May 2011, 03:48
<snip>
but i SEE how people are removed,
and how posts have been edited,
and untrue statements left in their place.
It's always been my understanding that I have a right to be puzzled about a decision to remove someone for a forum, but I have no right to make assumptions or even base my own opinion on the information given by just one person. In a forum, there is always stuff going on behind the scenes that members don't know anything about. Then add to that the fact that mods aren't omniscient; they make mistakes and errors just like you and I and the neighbour. And then you have the trolls, flamers, disruptors, whatever you want to call them, the ones who come here, despite safety nets of the application process, to do nothing but flame and disrupt.
i'm really not a trouble maker.
but maybe you should be on the recieving end,
and have them tell you about integrity.
steve
I didn't see you as a trouble maker.
I'm sure I've been at the receiving end; at least I'm sure someone tried telling me about integrity. :) It's just that if they weren't walking the talk, then they could have accused me of anything, and I wouldn't have taken notice. The thing is that there is still a lot of ego-related issues, here as well as elsewhere. So perhaps just leave your ego at the front door? That can be quite liberating because the fear factor goes down tremendously.
DeDukshyn
19th May 2011, 04:00
A distinction is needed here. This poll tries to make a hidden implication that "Anyone appearing to NOT be in alignment with the purpose/energy of the forum ..." is merely a "dissenting voice". This may or may not be true and is not predictable. However, the only other option in the poll is outright banning - an end of a spectrum, so to speak, that may not resonate with many, so the other option for those who want to partake is "accept as dissenting voice", after all that sounds pretty positive. Checking the "accept as dissenting voice" box will have you inadvertantly accept the implication that no one should be banned for any reason, to present as a facts from a poll.
-Andy, you should get into politics ;-)
SKAWF
19th May 2011, 04:03
i was given a two week holiday for insulting someone.
i didnt insult anyone
what i DID do was make a balanced observation, that was all.
i got more compliments and messages of support during that thread than any other, oh, and banned for 2 weeks.
it makes you think twice before posting.
i should add, i'm not hostile about it.
but even in the cold light of day
i have difficulty balancing it out
Lord Sidious
19th May 2011, 04:12
i was given a two week holiday for insulting someone.
i didnt insult anyone
what i DID do was make a balanced observation, that was all.
i got more compliments and messages of support during that thread than any other, oh, and banned for 2 weeks.
it makes you think twice before posting.
i should add, i'm not hostile about it.
but even in the cold light of day
i have difficulty balancing it out
I can see what you mean.
I don't know the example you speak of, but I can empathise with you for wondering why you got banned.
I had runins with mods on a computer forum I used to frequent as they were left leaning and I am not.
I haven't seen anything that would make me think you are a stirrer.
Limor Wolf
19th May 2011, 08:24
I would like to say that the general intent is that the forum will always sail on a smooth waters,however as Anchor said earlier:" people here know when they are skating on thin ice".
Hmmm! if I was at all paranoid, which of course I'm not, I would almost think that Limor's last statement was meant for me. :blink:
I think a more apt statement to make, Limor please excuse my arrogance for wanting to edit you, would be that the whole of the "human race" right now is skating on thin ice!
Meant to you? why would one want to take my last sentence and attribute it to himself ?? Mmm...interesting... ;)
I would like to say that the general intent is that the forum will always sail on a smooth waters,however as Anchor said earlier:" people here know when they are skating on thin ice".
Hmmm! if I was at all paranoid, which of course I'm not, I would almost think that Limor's last statement was meant for me. :blink:
I think a more apt statement to make, Limor please excuse my arrogance for wanting to edit you, would be that the whole of the "human race" right now is skating on thin ice!
Meant to you? why would one want to take my last sentence and attribute it to himself ?? Mmm...interesting... ;)
We have a saying in Liverpool,
"If the cap fits, wear it"
Ace
qbeac
19th May 2011, 08:36
------
Hi, All:
A quick note here. I've taken the last few days away from the forum, and have been working on other things. (Life goes on outside the Avalon Forum - as some but not all members may be aware!)
Regarding the subject of the thread, very few people understand how this works. Andy's 'poll' is naive. There are many more options. :)
For 6 months now we have been asking people to apply before joining the forum. We take the applications (and the process) very seriously, and a lot of applicants are denied. The new mods and I have worked carefully on the message we send them. (In Richard's day it was far more brutal.)
Sometimes we make a mistake, and when someone gets back to us with a genuine plea for acceptance and reconsideration, we all look at that person again. Manny will not mind my mentioning that he applied three times (or was it four?). We've all learned a lot from Manny. And I say that seriously. I love the guy.
Sometimes we ask for more information, and the applicant writes more, answering our questions. And sometimes we just say "no thanks", in the nicest way we can. We take the job very seriously, and the mods spend much more time considering applications than you would ever believe. (New mods Donna and Karelia will confirm.) :)
The point is this. I would like everyone (especially you, Andy), to understand this.
We look over everything we can find about the information someone provides.
We look at their posts on other forums to see their style, their mindset, their values, and their attitude.
We look at their blogs and websites.
We look them up on the net (and you'd be surprised what we find sometimes).
I check the 150,000 e-mails I've kept since 2006 to see if they've ever written to me before, and if so, what they said and why. (Ace will confirm this, yes?)
That's how proud of this community we are. That's how much we care. Believe me, if we did not do this, the environment would be like Godlike Productions.
So. Listen up.
Sometimes we make a mistake. The criterion is:
After a certain number of new member posts on the forum (maybe 10, maybe 100, maybe even 1000), we ask ourselves this question (and we can do this at any time):
If we'd known [... fill in this gap with anything you like ...] about this person when they first applied -- would we have invited them?
If the answer is No - then they are often uninvited. We're just correcting our error.
It's that simple. Nothing really to do with forum guidelines. It's to do with considering their application retrospectively.
Certainly nothing to do with nation-states or constitutions. This is not a public place. It's a private gathering, by invitation only. JFK's admirable rhetoric does not apply.
If you don't like this restaurant, just go and find another one. It's cool. If you hate the place (or its owner :) ), why did you come here anyway?
Moreover, if you look like you're going to wreck the joint when all we want to do is provide our guests with some wonderful nourishment, then we may throw you out. And we have the right to do that. Period.
And: it's not really about 'rules' that are broken. (Andy, we know that you have been really careful not to break any rules or breach any guidelines - it's interesting to watch!)
It's about whether, if we'd had the gift of precognition when you applied, would we have accepted you.
And we leave you with that question to ponder. It's really about intentions.
Not nearly so much about the words: words are just one of many clues about what the communicator's intentions really are. There are many ways to read people.
Hi Bill,
When Chicodoodoo was banned I happened to be reading his thread (Censorship here?) and, therefore, was able to witness the whole banning incident from the beginning to the end, which took place between pages 1 and 5 of that thread:
Pages 1 to 5:
- Pag 1 (Post 1): http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?20545-Censorship-here
- Pag 5 (Post 98 by Chicodoodoo): http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?20545-Censorship-here&p=219134&viewfull=1#post219134
- Pag 5 (Post 99 by Paul banning Chicodoodoo)
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?20545-Censorship-here&p=219143&viewfull=1#post219143
When he was suddenly banned, I was surprised and puzzled (as other people may have felt as well) because we were in the middle of a very interesting debate and I could not understand what had happened.
He was indeed talking about sensitive subjects, but very important ones that should be of great interest to any type of group of human beings where power is somehow being managed, whether it is countries, businesses, companies, associations, soccer clubs, families, forums, etc…. you name it.
And those subjects relate, for instance, to “separation of powers” to avoid possible abuses of power, freedom of speech, checks and balances, etc.
So, imo, was Chicodoodoo talking about delicate subjects? Yes he was.
But he was not insulting, he was not being unpolite, or uncivil, etc., he was simply trying to delve into a very delicate subject, and it appeared he was doing it for the benefit of Avalon and the community as a whole.
Paul’s very brief explanation about why he banned him (included in Post 1 of this thread: the “purpose and spirit” matter) is so wide, ambiguous, and unspecific that it could be stretched and made applicable to a lot of different types of things.
Because in order to be able to judge if there is a serious and grave misalignment of “purpose and spirit” between two parties, we would need to know, in the first place and with accuracy, which are the purpose and spirit of those two parties.
And once those two different “purposes and spirits” are accurately defined, then we’ll be able to evaluate the possible differences between the two and whether those differences are big or small, serious or not, grave or not.
I don’t know Chicodoodoo too well, but from the few posts I have read from him, my personal opinion is that he has a strong personality but he is “a real truth seeker”, as are many other people who have been supporting Project Camelot-Avalon from the beginning about 4 years ago (me included).
In fact, that’s exactly the reason why many of us have supported PC-PA during all these years, because we really believe in freedom, peace, liberty and truth seeking ideals in general. That’s what we stand for.
Bill, in your Post #88 you have talked about general concepts, but, please, could you be more specific in relation to this particular case with Chicodoodoo?
And according to the results of the Poll so far (should be rejected: 23%; should be accepted: 77%), it seems more people in the forum may be wondering the same thing.
So, Bill, my question to you is:
Please, could you be more specific and tell us what exactly did Chicodoodoo do to deserve to be permanently banned?
From those 5 pages (1 to 5) and few posts of his, could you show us what specific comment of his was against the Avalon guidelines, and why?
Or was it perhaps because of something grave he did/say elsewhere that was not included in those 5 pages? If that’s the case, could you inform us about it?
Please, could you elaborate on that?
Thanks.
------.................
The point is this. I would like everyone (especially you, Andy), to understand this.
I check the 150,000 e-mails I've kept since 2006 to see if they've ever written to me before, and if so, what they said and why. (Ace will confirm this, yes?)
That's how proud of this community we are. That's how much we care. Believe me, if we did not do this, the environment would be like Godlike Productions.
<<see rest of this post quoted directly above>>
Absolutely 100% Ace will confirm this yes.
"In the words of my late Great Granddad"
When truth is truth it will follow you forever.
And what a hero he was to me, every time I attempted something as a child, and failed to do it, he used to say, Never give up, Never give up!
His last breath was taken crawling out of the rubble of his house with (His Wife) My Nan's earn in his hand, laughing at the rescue workers, saying " The Ba###ds, they never got Elsie"
Referring to the German bombers, during the Blitz of Liverpool in the second World War.
Any way back on topic, It's true I had sent allot of e-mail to Bill for years before joining Project Avalon.
I was refused entry once or twice, for my lack of integrity in some of those e mails.
And fair play to Bill, once I had dug deep and seen the error of my ways (They were never held against me)
And to Andy.
Am not looking for a fight with you mate. Am not a key board hard man
I have been brought up to deal with differences face to face and ive gone
through to many battles in my life, am not looking for any more
You staggered me yesterday with your post that you posted right after
this post..
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?20597-Banning-for-misalignment&p=222425&viewfull=1#post222425
Far be it for me to suggest anything to you or anybody, I know its not my place.
But maybe a couple of days out in the sunshine, sit under a tree, it's free, cost nothing
and a little self analysing as to what your intentions rely are.
And I am putting my arm around your shoulder when I say that.
Maybe you were my little brother in a past life, who knows.
That's just the feeling i have.
Do take a look at Daft Ada's Post (Everybody) maybe just sit with it for 60 seconds.
And ask yourself, Who is it being Brave here?
Respect to All and yours
Ace
ViralSpiral
19th May 2011, 10:07
We have a saying in Liverpool,
"If the cap fits, wear it"
Ace
Liverpool, France?
:P
;)
Thank you Ada, for the perspective and grounding.
"Whatever living beings there may be — feeble or strong (or the seekers and the attained) long, stout, or of medium size, short, small, large, those seen or those unseen, those dwelling far or near, those who are born as well as those yet to be born — may all beings have happy minds"
Be well
Intraphase
19th May 2011, 10:27
At the point where an open and pending operating system decision is made based on a dynamic poll of the entire volume of the operating systems storage capacity the viability of the operating system to boot from the disk is questioned.
The poll questions the founding principles of the operating system that are used by the principal operators of the system. The poll is the equivalent of trying to write to the boot sector or change the construction of the kernel without following update protocols.
Commonwealth Practices of Mutual Survival
Leader and Party
Single Wealth Practices of Individual Survival
Psychopath and Sociopaths
Definitions:
Sociopath: Does not know the rules and breaks them from habit.
Psychopath: knows the rules and breaks them for personal advantage.
Base Forms
Teams TRUMP Followers
Leaders TRUMP Tyrants
Systems TRUMP Chaos
Leaders choose Teams to design Systems
Teams choose Leaders to enact The Design
Chaotic threats to Leaders, Teams & stable System Designs are viruses.
Human System Integrity Checks & Balances
Progress Vs. Perfection
Process Vs. Event
Lessons Vs. Mistake
Setback Vs. Failure
Healthy Vs. Abject
Precautions {} Speculations
Determination Vs. Desperation
Within any given information system an outer boundary can be drawn.
To go beyond that boundary is to reach the "Point of Abstraction" where the interlocking system of meanings collapses.
Within any given information system an outer boundary can be drawn.
To traverse the contents of the enclosed area in rapid and truncated routes
without regard for the systematization of meaning and benchmarks eliminates
all interlocking definitions within a self referential system leaving only voids.
"Motion without memory equals insanity."
Perfectionist-Failure Bind
Another concept which might lend to our understanding of obsession could be labeled the "perfectionist-failure bind" (or the "superman urge"). Recovering people tend to strive for perfection to make up for unacceptable past behavior and failures. However, it is their perfectionism that prompts them to set high unrealistic goals, and when they fail again they feel even more inadequate. They cannot allow themselves to make a mistake. They must know everything and have the right answer for any occasion.
Many spend days preparing for a simple job interview.
They try to anticipate every possible question that might be asked and seek the "perfect" answer. To miss even one question is equated with complete failure. It is much like a person walking a tightrope through life. There is no margin for error, thus creating the constant state of tension and fear which is quite evident in many people. They are trapped: failure prompts the need to set additional unrealistic, unobtainable goals which result in failure again.
How might this affect a persons relationships to other people? First, they will project their perfectionism onto others and expect the boss, wife, or authority figure to perform at an unrealistic level, do everything perfectly, and have all the right answers. When others don't meet these expectations, obsessive people become bitter, angry, and disillusioned. This, of course, leads to a barrier which prevents healthy relationships.
Tunnel Vision Dilemma
Next, we will consider the "tunnel vision dilemma that seems to be characteristic of obsessive people. They see life and other people through a long, dark tunnel with a small peephole at the end, or they can only see straight ahead like a horse wearing blinders. They don't want to be confused with all aspects of the problem. Decisions are made with minimal stimuli or facts in an impulsive, short-sighted manner. With an inaccurate perception of reality and a strong need to perceive only what they want, poor judgment will be evident in dealing with the complexities of life, adding frustration and failure. One can imagine the resulting anxiety and tension when people build their patterns of behavior on such narrow, distorted images of self and others, or when they develop a "don't give a damn" attitude. Add feelings of vulnerability to this as well as other fears and helpless feelings, and one can nearly comprehend why they desire to escape.
Either-Or Myth
Related to the tunnel vision dilemma is the "either-or
myth" (or the "right-or-wrong strait jacket"). The rigidity of the person's thinking is based upon an either-or, black-or-white, this-or-that, approach to problem solving. There are only extremes. Because our world of experience is realistically complex and varied, the either or myth person is rendered quite helpless in not being able to see a choice of appropriate responses. This compares to the frustration an experimental animal would feel if, after having been trained in a simple "Y" maze, it was placed in a complex pattern of multiple pathways, blinking lights, trapdoors, and blind alleys. The use of any short sighted simple strategy to lessen the conflict in a situation of this kind would lead to powerful positive reinforcement.
The usual attempted solution to a problem is an impulsive choice of one of the two alternatives. Because of repeated failure in solving problems, the person lacks self-confidence, is super sensitive to criticism, and reacts impulsively to authority and the rules of society.
This leads to overt rejection by society, friends, and family. Resentments, hostilities, distrust, and a general withdrawal from all but the most superficial relationships with people are common reactions to rejection.
.
Paralysis of Loneliness
The next concept is the "paralysis of loneliness." Some people often feel so lonely that they are "paralyzed" from taking any appropriate action. This loneliness is apparent in such symptoms as depression, hopelessness, boredom, and apathy. Although many people appear to have social skills and seem to be the "life of the party," closer examination usually reveals that their relationships with others are quite superficial.
They have not learned to express feelings or affection with such simple clarity as "I feel," and the give and take in a human relationship is quite one-sided, mostly "take."
To qoute Lewis Presnall in Search for Serenity,
"The arts of giving and receiving are the greatest arts of life. We have heard a great deal about the art of giving, but the art of receiving is equally important. Achieving a proper balance between giving and receiving is a characteristic of the mature adult."
Although many people have achieved certain degrees of emotional maturity, this area of honest peer relationships is usually quite lacking in emotional growth. Deprived of healthy relationships, a person is unable to continue to develop any feelings of adequacy or self-esteem and thus loses identity as a useful person.
Double Binds
A double bind is simply two contradictory forces working on an individual. On examination, the inconsistencies are quite apparent. For example, some people want help and advice from others, but set up their own conditions and reject the advice offered. Or they want and need structure and controls imposed on them, yet fight vigorously against them. They want help desperately, but will thoroughly disguise their way of communicating this need. They will work hard to get others to accept other people, yet resist the acceptance of their own inner identity.
The double bind concept is a form of cognitive-dissonance. Accordingly when there is disagreement between two elements of cognition or between elements of cognition and behavior, the person will alter the situation in the direction of congruence. Some people, unable to resolve their problems because of double binds, tunnel vision dilemma, or the right-or-wrong strait jacket myth, build tension or anxiety which is typically resolved, not through changing attitudes, beliefs, or biases, but through repetitive behaviors.
With help a person can break out of a rigid and stereotyped pattern of self-destructive behavior and truly live again.
"Power concentrated wins battles power diversified wins wars." Sun Tzu
(There is a four thousand question pop quiz coming after this meaty example
fed to the lions of data addiction. Be prepared to poll your databases and search strategies for unique alignment novelties worthy of a new poll question.)
*****
Abstract Conceptualization of Tactical Grids arrayed by Search Strategy.
A TOPICAL EXAMPLE OF THE "ALIGNMENT STRATEGY"
*****
Deep Thought - Timothy Mann
An early Chess Strategy tuning program.
A brief description how this tuning program worked and how
to use it.
The basic method used the mathematical concept of least square fitting.
This was hardly new and it had been applied to chess evaluation functions
before.
Let's suppose that the evaluation function is a weighted sum of positional
features (later referred to as a feature vector):
E(P) = SUM Ai * Fi(P)
i
For a given chess position
<P> (= position of pieces on the board plus castle and en passant status),
the evaluation <E(P)> is the sum of the features recognized by Deep Thought
<Fi(P)>
times the weight given to each feature
<Ai>.
For example, a feature may be the number of white pawns minus
the number of black pawns. The corresponding weight would be the value for
one pawn. There were roughly 100 features that Deep Thought used.
Some were implemented via a piece-placement table that could give a different weight for each piece depending on where it is on the board. For example, a gradient in the pawn value could be used to add a bonus for advanced pawns. King centrality was implemented likewise. There were five other tables in the hardware for more complex features, that could detect open
files, passed/doubled pawns etc.
(four pawn structure tables of 8192 entries each, a rook evaluation table with 2048 entries and the 1024 entry piece/placement table along with a few special bonus registers made up the DT evaluation hardware. While these nearly 40,000 programmable parameters of the DT hardware could be regarded as the components of DT's evaluation function, they all were derived from the 89 to ~100 parameters mentioned earlier).
The basic Deep Thought (DT) move cycle consisted of computing these tables
before every search so that the weights of the evaluation function could
be adjusted according to the overall situation of the game (opening,
mid-game, endgame, etc.). This took some time, so DT was not good at fast
games
Now suppose you had an oracle that could give the correct evaluation for a
position O(P). If we use this oracle on a sufficiently large set of
positions <Pj> then we could minimize the squared evaluation error sum:
error = SUM (O(Pj) - E(Pj))^2
via partial differentiation of this expression for each parameter <Ai>.
This leads to a linear equation system with one equation for each unknown
parameter of DT's evaluation function. If the positions are sufficiently
varied (they usually were), then this equation system can be solved and
out come the best values for our evaluation parameters.
The trouble was, we did not have such an oracle.
So the next best thing we had is the evaluation of DT.
Murray made some initial guesses for each parameter <Ai>
and we used that as a starting point. Obviously, if we use our own
<E(P)> (EVALUATION POSITION) as an oracle, we get the same parameters out of the least square fit as we put in.
So this is just a cumbersome way to compute the identity:
New(Ai) = Old(Ai) for all <i=1..100>. However, this was a great
debugging tool to see that we got the mathematics right.
In the tuning case, we did not just take the top-level evaluation, rather
we let DT search shallow 3ply trees with quiescence extensions. The
evaluation function is then computed symbolically: rather then plugging in
values, we propagated the feature vector of the best leaf node to the top.
The search itself was controlled by the current best guess of the
evaluation parameters. These were full min/max searches, rather than
alpha/beta searches. The tuning program cannot actually search these trees
because it does not know what a legal chess move is. Instead, the actual
DT was used to pre-search these trees and the results were stored in a
database (dbf_all). The tuning program merely traverses these trees.
Now we are still lacking an oracle. Instead we assumed that in our
collection of grand-master games, the winner of each games should serve as
a substitute oracle for DT. Discarding the moves of the losing side and
the first few opening moves, we considered all available moves for each
position. Each position was searched and evaluated. Suppose that there
were 20 legal moves in one position <Px> then each of these moves lead to
a new position <P0> ... <P19>, for which we get the evaluations <E(P0)>
... <E(P19)>. Let's assume that the winning GM played the move leading to
<P0> from <Px>. Then there are two cases:
1. DT's evaluation concurs, that is: E(P0) > E(P1...19)
2. DT evaluated some other move as best.
So the objective of our tuning procedure was to maximize the first case
and minimize the second case.
The GM (Grand Master) games tell us which moves are better, relative to other moves.
So rather than having an absolute oracle that assigns an absolute value to a
position, we have a kind of relative oracle: The move from <Px> to <P0> is
expected to be better than the moves from <Px> to <P1..19>. Hence <E(P0) -
E(Px)> ought to be larger than <E(P1..19) - E(Px)>. These differences of
evaluations were used for the tuning process, but this did not change much:
we still end up with linear combinations of elements of the feature vector
that can be dealt with via least square fitting. In the program and on the
display, the evaluations <Ex>, <E0> and <En, n=1...> refer to the evaluation
of the root position, the position of the winning GM move and the evaluation
of move <n>.
Naturally, not all changes to the evaluation of the board are positional
in nature and/or are captured by the evaluation function. The fact that
the pre-computed search trees include the results after quiescence search
should minimize differences due to exchanges, but this is not always the
case. Therefore in order to avoid interference from elements that DT
discovers via search and not via its evaluation function, the tuning
program includes a threshold: if the evaluation of the root position and
the position after a move differ by too much (more than 64 = half of a
pawn value), then it is assumed that there is something going on that the
evaluation function cannot grasp and this data-point is ignored
(out-of-bound).
The first idea was to apply a force function. Instead of using <E(P)> as
an oracle, we used <E(P) + G(P)> as an oracle. A simple force function
<G(P)> would be used to add a constant force value if the position is the
result of the GM move and 0 otherwise.
This doesn't really work as it leads to a value inflation. So instead of
adding no bonus for the wrong positions, we add <- force/n>, where <n> is
the number of wrong moves (positions).
This is in fact what an early version of the tuning code did. Add a small
force as described above, compute a new parameter set via least square
approximation and iterate until the number of correctly evaluated
positions does not increase anymore.
This works, but it did not really yield better play of DT. It became clear
that maximizing the agreement between DT's evaluation and the GM move
choices and better play were not really the same thing. Also, DT searched
9+ plys and we could tune only on 3ply searches due to compute time
limitations.
We observed that deeper searches in the tuning code lead to better
results, even though it could be argued that evaluations should be orthogonal
to searching. Perhaps an explanation for this effect is that deeper
searches lead to more differences in the positions that are being related
because they are more moves apart. Therefore, the tuning process collects
more information on how individual components of the evaluation relate to
each other. For example, the tuning process did result in a better
understanding of the piece-values with respect to each others and as
a function of the amount of material left on the board (this was used
to control the transitions from opening, mid-game to end-game).
The next refinement was to make the force dependent on the amount of
miss-evaluation. If DT is just a little bit off, use a small force, if DT
misses the position in a big way, add more force. This relationship was
subject to much debate and it is unclear which monotonic function is best
suited. Hence, the tuning program gives a number of options from linear,
quadratic, square-root, logarithmic, to reciprocal (the idea behind a
reciprocal force function was this: if DT is just a little off then there
is hope that it can learn how to evaluate this position correctly. If it
is off by a lot, don't bother to try - it will only screw up things
elsewhere because this is likely due to a concept that is missing from
DT's evaluation function). Which force-function to use eventually depended
on which parameters were subjected to tuning and became more of a trial
and error procedure.
A somewhat different idea for a force function was to count how many moves
were evaluated ahead of the GM-move. If this is 0, DT's evaluation
function is on target. Numbers greater than 0 are undesirable and lead to
an increased correcting force. This number was also used to compute a
histogram to see how DT's evaluation function scores against GM moves (see
the *.stat files after a multi-iteration tuning run). This is to be taken
with a large grain of salt, because the 3ply searches are clearly not good
enough to isolate positional evaluation from tactics.
At this point things started to improve somewhat (mostly measured via
self-play tournaments starting from various seed positions). But also
funny things happened to DT's evaluation function: the range of values
that it would produce during a search became smaller. The evaluation
function became less discriminative: the values for the good and bad moves
were progressively moving closer together. It did match more GM moves and
played slightly better, but it also became more erratic. Interestingly,
this reduction in value range was not due to simply reducing the weight
for the positional components of the evaluation function, rather it
involved balancing the various components against each other.
So a compensating force was added to the correction force so that it would
also encourage to keep a certain variance of evaluations. You see this in
the code commented as variance compensation.
As we learned how to tune more effectively, it became clear that tuning
all parameters at once was not necessarily a good idea. Certain parameters
were used very infrequently in our set of GM games, so allowing these to
be tuned can pick up the wrong idea for lack of sufficient data points.
868 games were not really enough to tune this many parameters.
It also became clear that the best parameter sets were usually obtained
after 10-15 iterations, and before the maximum match to the GM games was
reached, which typically required 20 to 30 iterations.
Finally, the last improvement of the tuning came after we added the
ability to tune tables. In the DT evaluation function are a number of
tables, for example the pawn advancement gradient, or the King centrality
table. Instead of just making up a linear gradient, we allowed the tuning
code to change the values of these table and allow more complex gradients.
This resulted in some strange 3D curves that upon inspection by Murray
were found to contain some known chess heuristics, which were not
originally part of DT's evaluation function (for example: the pawn
advancement gradient became more pronounced near the center and tapered
off towards the promotion squares). However, the overall impact of table
fitting was minor and was never fully exploited because the code became
stable only near the end of DT's life and we did not have enough compute
cycles to experiment a lot with it. The few experiments we did were great
fun because we extracted some general rules out of the game database in an
unbiased, neutral and fully automated way. This was quite important
because we had to avoid the slightest hint of suspicion that we took
anything from the competing High tech effort, which was the officially funded
chess project at CMU at that time. Because of our automated tuning
process, we had a demonstratively independent and effective way to
incorporate chess knowledge into DT.
We have a saying in Liverpool,
"If the cap fits, wear it"
Ace
Liverpool, France?
:P
;)
I divide my time.
Je partage mon temps.
Ace
Martin
19th May 2011, 11:07
@Intraphase, are you lost? :p Seriously why post all this here? If you want to discuss something please start your own thread and make clear what it is. I am not going to read all that, because it seems I am not able to process. Maybe it's because I am not a machine. :rolleyes:
Concerning the topic: I was very surprised by the decision of Paul to ban Chico, because I can't see what he did wrong and the way I see it for now is that there are topics which are not wished to be discussed here. Now, don't get me wrong we are discussing them kind of, but in my opinion Chico did not misbehave and yet got banned for not beeing in "line" with the energy or spirit of the forum.
Well, that's that and whatever it means in the end I guess it is suffice to say: "Das ist ein weites Feld, ein weites Feld." - "It's to too far Afield."
It's more than enough space to fill up a blank space with what ever one wants to put in. Now, we are all entitled to make mistakes. In the end it is all about learning by doing, right? It's just sad that I can not see what Chico did wrong, but I am not the own who calls the shots here nor would I want to be in the position. Therefor I just hope that we all have learned something or will learn something from all this.
MfG
Martin
Lily de Cuir
19th May 2011, 11:36
Dear Intraphase.
Skipped your post entirely, didn't even bother to read past a few paras. What a waste, as obviously you had put quite some time into it. Not all of us have your 'intellect'. I suspect you speak as you do as an 'elitist'. No ordinary person with a reasonable intellect is going to read that claptrap.
A 'Zen-like', common sense, brief comment would have achieved a much higher respect from this audience and would also have educated us, unlike this diatribe.
You missed a great opportunity to do so.
Just my opinion, of course.
Kind regards,
Lily
felixq78
19th May 2011, 11:42
It was indeed comforting to see that the vast majority of members (who voted) have voted to allow dissenting voices, isn't that what we are, a dissenting voice in the wilderness of the sleeping majority?
However only 71 people have voted which is a bit disappointing.
Anchor
19th May 2011, 11:50
@intraphase: you are a machine mind are you not?
noxon medem
19th May 2011, 16:44
It was indeed comforting to see that the vast majority of members (who voted) have voted to allow dissenting voices, isn't that what we are, a dissenting voice in the wilderness of the sleeping majority?
However only 71 people have voted which is a bit disappointing.
I am one of those who strongly believe dissenting voices
should not only be tolerated, but also encouraged. (in general, and here)
I did not vote on this poll, because any poll that present me with
only two (opposing, dualistic) alternatives makes me very uncomfortable.
all well
nm
Revere
19th May 2011, 17:10
"Anyone who does not appear to be in alignment with the purpose and energy of the forum may be asked to leave."
It seems that this is a continuous evolving standard open for individual discernment as we have seen. Will management be elaborating precise details for us to adhere too? These clarified rules could save everyone time and grief. Or could a policy of steps towards being banned be established as mentioned above. I am just curious about this possibility? Thanks. If you do please send it out to all in a mass PM so we get it right away. Thanks!
Peace,
Bob
NancyV
19th May 2011, 17:38
Dear Intraphase.
Skipped your post entirely, didn't even bother to read past a few paras. What a waste, as obviously you had put quite some time into it. Not all of us have your 'intellect'. I suspect you speak as you do as an 'elitist'. No ordinary person with a reasonable intellect is going to read that claptrap.
A 'Zen-like', common sense, brief comment would have achieved a much higher respect from this audience and would also have educated us, unlike this diatribe.
You missed a great opportunity to do so.
Just my opinion, of course.
Kind regards,
Lily
Au Contraire, I found Intraphase's dissertational allusion using the Chess Alignment Strategy to be quite profound and amusingly applicable relative to human psychology and social systems. Some of us find beauty in Zen-like simplicity and some of us find Zen-like simplicity in complexity and seeming chaos.
Nancy :)
PS: (I admit I had to look up the definition of "orthogonal") :rolleyes::p
Bill Ryan
19th May 2011, 17:44
"Anyone who does not appear to be in alignment with the purpose and energy of the forum may be asked to leave."
It seems that this is a continuous evolving standard open for individual discernment as we have seen. Will management be elaborating precise details for us to adhere too? These clarified rules could save everyone time and grief. Or could a policy of steps towards being banned be established as mentioned above. I am just curious about this possibility? Thanks. If you do please send it out to all in a mass PM so we get it right away. Thanks!
Peace,
Bob
Hi, Bob:
It's all here: I could not possibly make it any clearer. :)
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?20597-Banning-for-misalignment&p=222697#post222697
Please read that carefully - you may well have missed it.
It's a misunderstanding (although an understandable one!) to think that this is about stepping over a defined no-go perimeter in any guidelines. It's much much more about energy and intentions.
I think people get the intention of these two Bills mixed up:
Bill Ryan and Bill Clinton.
One wants to establish a Ministry of Truth, while the other wants a forum
where energy and intentions get discussed.
http://www.forbiddenknowledgetv.com/videos/the-law/welcome-to-1984-bill-clinton-calls-fora-ministry-of-truth.html
mondaze
19th May 2011, 18:12
i will let you into a secret... i was having misgivings a while back, but then i stepped back from the lemming drop... You know why? because there are an awful lot of people here with whom i enjoy having conversations and debate. simple. I ignore areas which don't resonate and participate in those that do. The moderators do a good job, for little thanks and no remuneration, and i thank them for their efforts. :cool:
¤=[Post Update]=¤
ps. intraphase war and peace was better in Russian!
EYES WIDE OPEN
19th May 2011, 18:14
I voted "Be accepted as a dissenting voice."
However, I dont consider myself a "disenting voice" as my search is for truth and I do consider myself in alignment with Avalon and its mission.
However, that didnt stop the mods from banning me for a month! Paul (I presumme it was paul as Ilie Pandia was very understanding) made compleatly the wrong decision and I was banned for a month without warning.
I thought it was all going well as I had PMed the mods before hand and nobody said I was close to being banned.
The reason given was that I went off topic. (What in fact I had done, was post a link to an amusing youtube clip from Curb Your Enthusiam (see my Avatar) that tried to lighten the mood of the thread as it had gotten very heavy.) It was my way of saying lets all calm down and I wanted to make us all smile.
I had good INTENTIONS that were totally misread by the mods and a banning resulted.
But whatever.
I could never be a mod.
It seems way too easy to make mistakes but respect to all those in the mod and admin teams. Its a tough role!
Been waitng a month to get that off my chest :LOL:
Hello again to all.
The poll results are intersting. Looks like the people have spoken.
Hope everyone is well. :)
Revere
19th May 2011, 19:50
Bill...
Hi, Bob:
It's all here: I could not possibly make it any clearer.
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...697#post222697
Please read that carefully - you may well have missed it.
It's a misunderstanding (although an understandable one!) to think that this is about stepping over a defined no-go perimeter in any guidelines. It's much much more about energy and intentions.
Bill,
Thanks for replying. Yes, I did miss it in this thread and that is my fault. It is an interesting way to go and I wish all involved clear insight into discerning energy, intentions and character. All the best to everyone involved in this task.
Peace,
Bob
When something comes up that really needs dissenting you'll all hear me. Take that to the bank.
Carry on.
Love
K
christian
19th May 2011, 20:08
Breaking it down:
Banning people for the stated reasons would heavily divert attention from the stated purpose of the forum.
Keeping the focus happens by doing so in yourself, not by shutting off others, you may simply let some comments be hot air, if you think that would be reasonable.
edit:
Of course, if someone chooses to communicate indecently, being insulting or spamming, that is another thing, I would never tolerate thugs, bullies, vandals and the like, not on the internet and not out there.
Sierra
19th May 2011, 20:41
Au Contraire, I found Intraphase's dissertational allusion using the Chess Alignment Strategy to be quite profound and amusingly applicable relative to human psychology and social systems. Some of us find beauty in Zen-like simplicity and some of us find Zen-like simplicity in complexity and seeming chaos.
Nancy :)
PS: (I admit I had to look up the definition of "orthogonal") :rolleyes::p
LOL! I was really interested in everything Intraphase had to say UNTIL the chess example, then I got lost!
DeDukshyn
19th May 2011, 23:53
I guarantee you all I could spend a week here at Avalon, being a dissenting voice and devil's advocate only --and still not be banned from Avalon. It's not about that. Can we all stop pretending it is? Can we stop making up things to argue about? Ya sure there's a few that just don't 'get it' and if they can't 'get it' from here with all the extremely wise and wonderful souls, then maybe that is just their choice - just like it is Bill's and the Mods choice to decide who is appropriate for the energy of Avalon or not. Why make mountains out of molehills?
Edit: I couldn't take part in the polls because the poll was flawed as I indicated here:http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?20597-Banning-for-misalignment&p=222756&viewfull=1#post222756
qbeac
20th May 2011, 01:20
"Anyone who does not appear to be in alignment with the purpose and energy of the forum may be asked to leave."…..snip…..
Hi, Bob:
It's all here: I could not possibly make it any clearer. :)
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?20597-Banning-for-misalignment&p=222697#post222697
Please read that carefully - you may well have missed it.
It's a misunderstanding (although an understandable one!) to think that this is about stepping over a defined no-go perimeter in any guidelines. It's much much more about energy and intentions.
Hi Bill,
People who are familiar with how business schools work probably know that their teachers usually give at least two different types of classes:
a) Theory classes: to explain theoretical general concepts that may apply to many different situations in life.
b) The Case Method classes: a real case is analyzed in detail in order to teach students how to apply point “a” (theory) to very specific real life cases.
Bill, your Post #88 (pag 5) refers to point “a” (theoretical general concepts).
While my questions for you in Post #101 (pag 6) refer to point “b” (a real life case).
Moreover, some people are puzzled about this banning incident because when you review what happened that day (pages 1 to 5 of the thread “Censorship here?”, May-15-11), it doesn’t seem that Chicodoodo was doing anything wrong.
He was simply expressing his POV with the same polite and respectful attitude that you, Bill, described about him in this post:
Post 335, pag. 17. Bill praises Chicodoodoo’s integrity and great qualities
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?18908-Integrity&p=203818&viewfull=1#post203818
Bill Ryan wrote:
[Chicodoodoo] is intelligent, respectful, analytical, questioning, open to learning, and never slips into covert hostility, sarcasm, or cheap backbiting - even when bothered by something. That has my respect…. snip…
… I know that Chicodoodoo and I would get along really well. I suspect that he'd agree.
So, Bill, I understand your theory (Post #88), but it doesn’t seem to match the facts of that particular day (pages 1 to 5, May-15-11).
That’s why what is in question is whether this banning case was just or unjust, justified or arbitrary.
And those distinctions, to many people (me included), are not something trivial but a big deal that would need to be resolved.
Therefore, please, could you explain how your theoretical general concepts (Pots #88) apply to my questions (Post #101) which refer specifically to this real life case of Chicodoodo?
Please, Bill, do you mind reviewing my questions in Post #101 (pag 6)?
Thanks.
-----------------------
ANNEX
Post #88, pag. 5. Bill Ryan’s theoretical and general concepts about banning, uninviting members, etc.
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?20597-Banning-for-misalignment&p=222697&viewfull=1#post222697
Post 101, pag. 6. Questions to Bill about the specific real case of the Chicodoodoo banning incident (May-15-11)
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?20597-Banning-for-misalignment&p=222859&viewfull=1#post222859
Harvard Business School's Case Method
http://www.hbs.edu/mba/academics/howthecasemethodworks.html
Case Method
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Case_method
The case method is a teaching approach that consists in presenting the students with a case [a real case], putting them in the role of a decision maker facing a problem (Hammond 1976).
andywight
20th May 2011, 02:23
You staggered me yesterday with your post that you posted right after
this post..
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?20597-Banning-for-misalignment&p=222425&viewfull=1#post222425
My apologizes Monsieur Scouser, no disrespect was intended towards Daft Ada.
Daft Ada, don't despair & get well soon.
Andy
Karma Ninja
20th May 2011, 02:30
Perhaps you are trying too hard to back Bill into a corner with this demand for a response. The Harvard Business schools case method??? This is an internet forum, not an Ivy league university class. This is as puzzling to me as the comparison of this situation to anything JFK faced, said or stood for.
Where does it say that the reasons for another member being banned need to be made public? I think it is generally accepted wisdom that a members banning or suspension should be kept private and no details need to be given. It might be viewed as worse if we made public the reasons and shamed people on the way out. Then we would all be reading repeated threads regarding the lack of respect and privacy shown by our moderators. For all we know, there could have been dozens of complaints and PM's sent to the mods from other members who were tired of reading another members rants and methods. Or not...
If you wish to search for an answer, Bill has provided the guidelines and expectations of the forum. If you can't understand that...read it again...and again...and again. Until you understand that your interpretation is not necessarily the same as the mods or Bills. In the end, it is irrelevant to the decision what you or I think. Chico chose to come back guns-a-blazing and made it clear he did not respect the mods decisions or the rules of the forum. He could have tackled this by PM'ing the mods and continued his pursuit for justice that way. He could have also chosen to contribute and add his thoughts on other topics. Instead he posted one thread and tried a direct public attack.
Where did Bill say he was the one who made the decision? He actually made the point that he had been away for a few days. The mods made the decision and Bill has not overruled them or changed the decision. For all we know Bill might be in the process of deciding or the matter might have been discussed and agreements arrived upon. We don't know and, in order to respect Chico, we don't need to know.
Also what Bill wrote in the past has no bearing on what the mods decided Chico would be banned for on the day it happened. Things change...people change. Or not. Bill comes across as a pretty reasonable guy and he could probably still sit down and have a meal with Chico and deal with this like a civilized man. He never said otherwise. I bet you Chico could too.
Take a deep breath and look to the future and take one step in that direction. The past is the past. Let's move on.
Pamela
20th May 2011, 03:03
Maybe all should read Chicodoodoo's post on Nexus.
http://nexus.2012info.ca/forum/showthread.php?2749-Open-Letter-to-Bill-Ryan
It seems like Avalon is becoming like the Evening News. Censorship. I thought this website was about exposing truth whether we liked to hear it or not.
I also thought we were all adults here that could state our feelings. I do not think that all of the people being banned are being treated fairly. This is totally getting out of hand.
Dictatorship seems to be the name of the game here.
Feren
20th May 2011, 03:11
Dear AndyWhite:
I would like to give a direct response to each of your three claims:
First, your claim that appearances can be deceiving is as true as the claim that appearances can be a reflection of what really is. Do you know why? No, you don't, because that's precisely what you are ignoring here: there is no real limit between waht is and what appears to be, speacially among us, honest kindhearted people who act with integrity, who do not appear to be what we are not. If I'm right, anyone who appears to be something that he/she is not, they might be asked to leave.
Second, I don't think you are getting right the purpose and energy of this forum. This should be evident to anyone who reads your post and dont resonate with it, not even in htose moments when you seem to be telling facts. But let's not make "resonance" an argument, as many like to do. The purpose of this forum is, as I understand it, to host an evolving community of people who are interested in sharing and encouraging certain information, certain knowledges and discourses derived from and pointed to a broad sense of awareness. This is not a place to have passioante conversations on "who is right?" or "who has the truth"?; and there are, like me, hundreds of avalonian who are seeking knowledge and awareness.
I'm not yet aware of why or under what circumpstances was he banned, so I won't say anything about that rather than I'm sorry because I admire and respect Chicodoodoo very much.
Anyway I believe that all this "difficult moment" that many say we are living here at Avalon and stuff is just bull crap. There is not such a storm. Most of us are sharing and looking for useful knowledge: that's what we do. It is not about pursuing the truth as if the truth was the treasure to be found under the rainbow. We all know it is only a myth. Lies are often found among truths.
Third, "being asked to leave" is just metaphor, even an eufemism. It is just like when you "show someone the door". I'm sure I don't need to explain this.
Again, there is no absolute opposition between what is and what appears to be. That thought, that old metaphysical, mythical, childish thought, that's what we have left behind.
Seikou-Kishi
20th May 2011, 03:13
Maybe all should read Chicodoodoo's post on Nexus.
http://nexus.2012info.ca/forum/showthread.php?2749-Open-Letter-to-Bill-Ryan
It seems like Avalon is becoming like the Evening News. Censorship. I thought this website was about exposing truth whether we liked to hear it or not.
I also thought we were all adults here that could state our feelings. I do not think that all of the people being banned are being treated fairly. This is totally getting out of hand.
Dictatorship seems to be the name of the game here.
Posting links to other forums as a part of a useful sharing of information is one thing, but linking to another forum specifically to give voice to someone who was removed is inappropriate.
If the flavour of this forum offends your palate, you might want to consider leaving. You are not a hostage here.
Sierra
20th May 2011, 03:26
Qbeac,
You don't always get what you want in life and I can guarantee you are not going to get the response you seem to desire so desperately. For weeks through multiple long winded threads it is clear you have a written_in_stone_script, ALREADY IN YOUR MIND of the words you want certain players to say don't you? Now how realistic is that? And you think pretending you are water wearing down a stone is going to make a difference?
Pure fantasy. It is getting a bit embarrassing watching you.
If you can hand out reams of irrelevant to the point homework to others in a dysfunctional attempt to impose your script, well I can ask you to read a book that explains why you are not going to get what you want. I recommend Barbara Tuchman's book called In Search of Folly. By the time you are done reading the book, you will know and understand the meaning of the word folly.
I read this book decades ago, but three of the factors that create folly are:
Blinkers... you know, those things that when you put them on you arrogantly see only your own POV
People that encouragingly tell you only what you want to hear so you can continue in folly
Ego. Ego is a big component of folly because ego doesn't like to admit it is wrong or has failed
The above factors can combine to create insoluble problems that don't go away until the player trapped by his ego in the role of folly loses power or dies (George III "The colonists do not require representation for taxation" and the Revolutionary War, US/Johnson "I refuse to be the first president to lose a war"/Nixon and the Vietnam War).
We'd all be so grateful if you could get off it.
Maybe all should read Chicodoodoo's post on Nexus.
http://nexus.2012info.ca/forum/showthread.php?2749-Open-Letter-to-Bill-Ryan
It seems like Avalon is becoming like the Evening News. Censorship. I thought this website was about exposing truth whether we liked to hear it or not.
I also thought we were all adults here that could state our feelings. I do not think that all of the people being banned are being treated fairly. This is totally getting out of hand.
Dictatorship seems to be the name of the game here.
why exactly should we read chico's post at nexus? seriously. what could he possibly say that he hasn't already said ten trillion times? i'll bet that even nexus is sick of hearing it (ok, maybe not).
if he's announced that there is a secret cash prize for pointless redundancy and that all of his efforts were geared towards that, not only will i read his post, i will declare him a genius and welcome him back to avalon with open arms. i'll also understand andy here a little better.
if he's announced that he's found a wonderful woman, a job, a hobby, or anything else that might prevent him from thinking about avalon for .05 seconds, let me know and i'll certainly check out his post and offer my congratulations.
andywight
20th May 2011, 04:34
i'll also understand andy here a little better.
if he's announced that he's found a wonderful woman, a job, a hobby, or anything else that might prevent him from thinking about avalon for .05 seconds, let me know and i'll certainly check out his post and offer my congratulations.
I was considering reporting this post as I believe it is inappropriate and not in alignment with the spirit of this forum, but alas! I see this would be pointless as an Admin, a Mod and two mods-in-training have already thanked it.
i'll also understand andy here a little better.
if he's announced that he's found a wonderful woman, a job, a hobby, or anything else that might prevent him from thinking about avalon for .05 seconds, let me know and i'll certainly check out his post and offer my congratulations.
I was considering reporting this post as I believe it is unappropriated and not in alignment with the spirit of this forum, but alas! I see this would be pointless as an Admin, a Mod and two mods-in-training have already thanked it.
andy, are you saying that you want to censor my post? ;)
andy would you please explain to me exactly what you mean by the spirit of avalon? and i mean, EXACTLY. because if i don't know, how can i be held accountable for my posts? and be precise, because if you're not i will be asking an additional 1000 questions for clarification.
andywight
20th May 2011, 05:25
i'll also understand andy here a little better.
if he's announced that he's found a wonderful woman, a job, a hobby, or anything else that might prevent him from thinking about avalon for .05 seconds, let me know and i'll certainly check out his post and offer my congratulations.
I was considering reporting this post as I believe it is unappropriated and not in alignment with the spirit of this forum, but alas! I see this would be pointless as an Admin, a Mod and two mods-in-training have already thanked it.
andy, are you saying that you want to censor my post? ;)
Dear Mr Chinaski,
Absolutely not.
Andy
andywight
20th May 2011, 05:33
andy would you please explain to me exactly what you mean by the spirit of avalon? and i mean, EXACTLY. because if i don't know, how can i be held accountable for my posts? and be precise, because if you're not i will be asking an additional 1000 questions for clarification.
Dear Mr Chinarski,
The following was in reply to a post from Lord Sidious, in my humble opinion I think you would also benefit from the reading of it.
Andy
Come on, don't insult our intelligence here.
I would never dream of insulting your intelligence my Lord, or of that of this fine forum, of which you seem to be inspiring to be the spokesman for.
Anyhoo, if I did want to insult your intelligence! which for the record I most certainty don't, which would not be necessarily for me to do so as you seem to be doing a splendid job of that all by yourself.
Regards,
Andy :cool:
i'll also understand andy here a little better.
if he's announced that he's found a wonderful woman, a job, a hobby, or anything else that might prevent him from thinking about avalon for .05 seconds, let me know and i'll certainly check out his post and offer my congratulations.
I was considering reporting this post as I believe it is unappropriated and not in alignment with the spirit of this forum, but alas! I see this would be pointless as an Admin, a Mod and two mods-in-training have already thanked it.
andy, are you saying that you want to censor my post? ;)
Dear Mr Chinaski,
Absolutely not.
Andy
ok. good then.
and as far as 'the spirit of avalon'? i'm afraid i don't understand. could you please explain what you mean by that? i'd like to know specifically why you feel i'm not in alignment.
andy would you please explain to me exactly what you mean by the spirit of avalon? and i mean, EXACTLY. because if i don't know, how can i be held accountable for my posts? and be precise, because if you're not i will be asking an additional 1000 questions for clarification.
Dear Mr Chinarski,
The following post was in reply to a post from Lord Sidious, in my humble opinion I think you would also benefit from the reading it.
Come on, don't insult our intelligence here.
I would never dream of insulting your intelligence my Lord, or of that of of this fine forum, of which you seem to be inspiring to be the spokesman for.
Anyhoo, if I did want to insult your intelligence! which for the record I most certainty don't, which would not be necessarily for me to do so as you seem to be doing a splendid job of that all by yourself.
Regards,
Andy :cool:
andy, please loosen up. call me Mike.
the mr chinaski thing is insulting my sense of informality.
andywight
20th May 2011, 06:00
ok. good then.
and as far as 'the spirit of avalon'? i'm afraid i don't understand. could you please explain what you mean by that? i'd like to know specifically why you feel i'm not in alignment.
Mike
I think Bill is much more qualified than me to answer your question. His following post, I believe, should have the answer you're looking for.
Andy
"Anyone who does not appear to be in alignment with the purpose and energy of the forum may be asked to leave."
It seems that this is a continuous evolving standard open for individual discernment as we have seen. Will management be elaborating precise details for us to adhere too? These clarified rules could save everyone time and grief. Or could a policy of steps towards being banned be established as mentioned above. I am just curious about this possibility? Thanks. If you do please send it out to all in a mass PM so we get it right away. Thanks!
Peace,
Bob
Hi, Bob:
It's all here: I could not possibly make it any clearer. :)
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?20597-Banning-for-misalignment&p=222697#post222697
Please read that carefully - you may well have missed it.
It's a misunderstanding (although an understandable one!) to think that this is about stepping over a defined no-go perimeter in any guidelines. It's much much more about energy and intentions.
i see.
and which part of this pertains to my post? i'm still a little confused. not sure where i breached protocol. i just don't see it. any ideas?
ya know, i just can't help but feel i'm being unfairly picked on here. and you won't even tell me why, andy. why all the secrecy? i think you should explain your position completely and let the members decide who is right and who is wrong. maybe a poll???
andywight
20th May 2011, 06:31
i see.
and which part of this pertains to my post? i'm still a little confused. not sure where i breached protocol. i just don't see it. any ideas?
Thank you Mike,
I think you have stumbled upon the same problem that a number of members here seem to be having.
i see.
and which part of this pertains to my post? i'm still a little confused. not sure where i breached protocol. i just don't see it. any ideas?
Thank you Mike, I think you have stumbled upon a problem that a number members seem to be having here.
hmmmmm. you seemed offended by something i wrote. i guess you will not be clarifying why you thought i was not in alignment with avalon???
andy, is chico feeding you answers through a very slow radio feed?;) you are communicating with the speed of a glacier my friend.
i'll be going to bed now. i look forward to your explanation in the morning. hopefully we can clear all this up.
andywight
20th May 2011, 07:11
andy, is chico feeding you answers through a very slow radio feed?;) you are communicating with the speed of a glacier my friend.
i'll be going to bed now. i look forward to your explanation in the morning. hopefully we can clear all this up.
Sorry to disappoint, it's just little old me! the cable company cut off my internet, so I'm stealing wifi from my neighbor which is very slow and which cuts me off a lot of the time.
Mike why don't you pm me so we could exchange emails and discuss this further without the limitations of a private forum.
Just a thought. :cool:
andywight
20th May 2011, 07:22
This isn't directed at anybody and I read a long description from an early post on the same subject! but as they say, "a picture is worth a thousand words"
7556
MMA_Fan
20th May 2011, 07:41
Well so far 16 people have voted for those 'appearing to NOT be in alignment with the purpose/energy of the forum' to be banned.
Seeing as though those 16 are in the minority and so not in alignment with the rest - should they not be banned themselves?:p
sandy
20th May 2011, 07:45
Well so far 16 people have voted for those 'appearing to NOT be in alignment with the purpose/energy of the forum' to be banned.
Seeing as though those 16 are in the minority and so not in alignment with the rest - should they not be banned themselves?:p
Dear MMA_FAN,
I was just getting ready to sign off and thought I would check out you comment>>>>just the chuckle I needed as a good relaxer for hitting the hay. Thanks and have a good day this day:)
MMA_Fan
20th May 2011, 07:56
Well so far 16 people have voted for those 'appearing to NOT be in alignment with the purpose/energy of the forum' to be banned.
Seeing as though those 16 are in the minority and so not in alignment with the rest - should they not be banned themselves?:p
Dear MMA_FAN,
I was just getting ready to sign off and thought I would check out you comment>>>>just the chuckle I needed as a good relaxer for hitting the hay. Thanks and have a good day this day:)
Thankyou, you too :)
Sierra
20th May 2011, 08:00
Dear Mr. Chinaski and AndyWight,
I have not laughed this hard in months! Thank you for that repartee!
Sierra giggling madly at the role reversal :)
ViralSpiral
20th May 2011, 08:11
Dear Mr. Chinaski and AndyWight,
I have not laughed this hard in months! Thank you for that repartee!
Sierra giggling madly at the role reversal :)
me three
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_2RqtqglGWzc/S8w3fDLUeRI/AAAAAAAABFw/xVlooBPpbPU/s320/ping+pong.gif
Further evidence that we're all just cognisant beings, wishing to be heard (and validated)
thanks all et pour Ace: merci tous :)
Isostool
20th May 2011, 14:50
i see.
and which part of this pertains to my post? i'm still a little confused. not sure where i breached protocol. i just don't see it. any ideas?
Thank you Mike, I think you have stumbled upon a problem that a number members seem to be having here.
hmmmmm. you seemed offended by something i wrote. i guess you will not be clarifying why you thought i was not in alignment with avalon???
Dear Mr Chinaski,
It is because you belittled Andywight's sense of right and wrong and the fact that he is standing up for that. By making a joke; making his integrity out to BE a joke in your estimation. In that he should be, to be in 'correct alignment' as far as you are intimating, writing posts about his new cat, girfriend or recently bought thigh toner machine or something quite irrelivant rather than what he genuinely finds important. And you were making it to be something we should be laughing at. THAT'S WHY. And not only that but the mods supported the intimation. All about energy and intent huh? sheeeesh.
benevolentcrow
20th May 2011, 15:00
One's dignity may be assaulted, vandalized and cruelly mocked, but cannot be taken away unless it is surrendered......Michael J. Fox
Belle
20th May 2011, 15:07
Followed the link to Nexus that was posted earlier to read what Chico had to say...Seems Nexus is having 'misalignment' problems of its own. http://nexus.2012info.ca/forum/search.php?do=getdaily
"vBulletin Message
I did not start this forum to be a nest of mudslinging and name calling.
Take a breath, step back and rethink what you want to do here
Once I reopen the forum, If you cannot self moderate, we will do it for you. Call it control or censorship if you want to, I call it maintaining decorum and decency. From here on the bull**** stops.
Peace."
Isostool
20th May 2011, 15:19
Followed the link to Nexus that was posted earlier to read what Chico had to say...Seems Nexus is having 'misalignment' problems of its own. http://nexus.2012info.ca/forum/search.php?do=getdaily
"vBulletin Message
I did not start this forum to be a nest of mudslinging and name calling.
Take a breath, step back and rethink what you want to do here
Once I reopen the forum, If you cannot self moderate, we will do it for you. Call it control or censorship if you want to, I call it maintaining decorum and decency. From here on the bull**** stops.
Peace."
Yeah... I happened to be hanging out there today. It was quite something. Some seriously rude comments by someone who got banned for it. For how long I don't know but it was bad enough to be pretty much unrepeatable - extremely abusive and disrespectful [aimed at myself may I just add]. And there were some other people having issues I did not read. Full moon or something apparently!!!!
Belle
20th May 2011, 15:24
Moderation is necessary for a well functioning forum, and I think our moderators do a fantastic job. Free thinkers have difficulty with moderation, imo, but all opinions need to be expressed in an open and respectful manner. I don't think that is too much to ask of its members.
TigerLilly
20th May 2011, 15:37
The moderation overthere is great, but things got heated and they wisely closed the forum for a short while to let people calm down. Better than permanently banning them all!;)
greybeard
20th May 2011, 15:42
Followed the link to Nexus that was posted earlier to read what Chico had to say...Seems Nexus is having 'misalignment' problems of its own. http://nexus.2012info.ca/forum/search.php?do=getdaily
"vBulletin Message
I did not start this forum to be a nest of mudslinging and name calling.
Take a breath, step back and rethink what you want to do here
Once I reopen the forum, If you cannot self moderate, we will do it for you. Call it control or censorship if you want to, I call it maintaining decorum and decency. From here on the bull**** stops.
Peace."
There are situations where it is necessary to let go of ones own opinions for the greater good.
and thats no big deal.
A Course In Miracles says
"The moment you take up a position know that you are identifying with an illusion"
Unfortunately not so many people get that.
I respect the stand that Nexus is taking over a few persistent gladiators who need an audience for their disputes.
I also have a respect for the moderators here---no easy job
However but for the grace of God there go I
If I had a persons genes their upbringing their personal history I would act exactly the same as them in the circumstances that they find themselves in.
I would also point out that the whole human race and mother earth and all planets in our solar system are being greatly affected by incoming energy attributed to the comet or planet x
I would point out that the tides (water) are affected by the moon so are people (Lunacy =lunar)
Our body is 90% water so if you think you are not affecte by an incoming energy think again
I sugest that we all try to be reasonable and try not to react in a knee jerk fashion to real or imagined grievances.
Realize when your buttons are being pushed it is your buttons. (pain Body)
Mine have been too
Eckhart Tolle in the "Power of Now" wrote there would be increased madness and that we are on the verge of the biggest step forward in the evolution of mankind since we left the ocean--- that is massive.
Other are now saying the same
Please be kind to all life including your own no matter what.
I fail often but that is my intention.
I dont know what brought that peaceful rant on but it may have some value.
Chris
Belle
20th May 2011, 16:01
I did not post the link to Nexus to have a discussion about what happened on that forum. That is their business and not ours, imo.
My intent was to accent the point that moderation is necessary for a well run forum, no matter which one it may be...and that we are not the only forum around that has issues with moderation.
Free speech is one thing...personal attacks are another. It's easy to get over-enthusiastic about one's point of view and defending it...and sometimes difficult to see how it comes across to others.
Isostool
20th May 2011, 16:09
The moderation overthere is great, but things got heated and they wisely closed the forum for a short while to let people calm down. Better than permanently banning them all!;)
Yes. Well. I just cancelled my Nexus membership. I have never been abused like that over here and I don't ever expect to be. This place has its problems and its faults but at least it is peacefulish.
Dennis Leahy
20th May 2011, 16:55
Dear Mr Chinaski,
It is because you belittled Andywight's sense of right and wrong and the fact that he is standing up for that. By making a joke; making his integrity out to BE a joke in your estimation. In that he should be, to be in 'correct alignment' as far as you are intimating, writing posts about his new cat, girfriend or recently bought thigh toner machine or something quite irrelivant rather than what he genuinely finds important. And you were making it to be something we should be laughing at. THAT'S WHY. And not only that but the mods supported the intimation. All about energy and intent huh? sheeeesh.
It is the disingenuous nature of the OP's original post. THAT is the fuel for the fire, not Andy as a human being. The original post is yet another (yawn) thinly-veiled, side-door attack on Bill and the mods. The poll is laughably flawed (one option should have been "Get Bill!"), and quickly the real intent - trumpeting for Chicodoodoo - was revealed.
Anyone paying even a slight bit of attention knows that Chicodoodoo asked for changes he wanted to see (that the mods. admins, and Bill were not in favor of, i.e., allowing virtually anything to be posted, regardless how much of the community's time and energy is sapped from our REAL reasons to be gathered here), and refused to take no for an answer. So, he started another forum, where he could do as he wished. But (as far as I know), his life force has been diverted from such things as the admirable "People United" pledge and onto the Get Bill! bandwagon. Like the jaws of a Pit Bull, dragging the entire Avalon forum down by refusing to let go and move on - move BACK - to important subjects.
I see no indication that Chicodoodoo is going to let up. I hope he does, and gets back on-track with the People United concept and moves forward. Otherwise, unless he wants to be accused of being a phony, he should change the name to People United As Soon As Bill Is Eviscerated, because that certainly seems to be his major issue in life right now. And Andy, you have posted nothing whatsoever to indicate you have any sincerity in overcoming the reign of the Global Rulers or anything remotely helping mankind, so don't be surprised when no one comes running to assist you in your one-track, Avalon denigrating mission.
The admins and mods have mostly light housekeeping duties on almost all of the forum - until yet another thread that attempts to steal the energy of the entire forum appears. Pretending these issues have urgency is like complaining about what awful food you had for breakfast while you're on a battlefield with bombs exploding around you.
Make a list of the 100 most important issues of our time on this Earth. No, this is not rhetorical, I'm asking anyone who thinks that bitching about former members (some who are self-proclaimed superstars but lack any evidence) of Avalon is one of the 100 or even 1000 most important issues of our short journey through this incarnation to actually make a list. If this is on your list, go start another forum and rant about it. We are ready to move on. We have other things to do, more important work to attend to.
Dennis
p.s. I'm personally very fed up with wasting time. I have a sense of urgency. You can look for me closing threads like this when they appear. I'm closing this one right now.
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