Continual Criticism of the Avalon Forum - A Solution?

[lightpotential]

Dear group

I do not post all too frequently within this forum, but I do browse the forum almost on a daily basis and try to seek out topics which are of interest in which I might contribute towards.

What I would suggest therefore, and I do not know if this is technically possible, but perhaps one of the administrators or moderators might know: is it possible that all of the threads started on topics about banning people, disagreements on the direction of the forum, or procedural disagreements with regards to moderator decisions; and all such related arguments, could be confined to one forum subheading, and isolated from the rest of the forum?

What I mean is this: create a forum subgroup, e.g. “Forum/Member Discussion”, under the main forum headings, such as one might have “General Discussion”or “Spirituality” for example, and if anybody wishes to start a thread on such a topic, on such as why a person was banned, or whatever, then they have to post it under this heading.

But this point is critical - Do not allow any posts on these issues to appear in the “Today's posts” or “New posts” listings.

That way, all such posts are put into an isolated corner and do not disrupt the created threads on real topics that people might have an interest in. I think that all this continual discussion about members leaving, people being banned, people criticising the moderators, is essentially contaminating the entire forum. What we need is to have these kinds of discussions isolated and cut off from the main forum headings and topics. Create therefore a separate subheading within the main Forum index and put all such posts in there.

If a person wants to engage in those discussions they can do so freely within that menu heading, but with the knowledge that members essentially have to literally go down to that menu heading – clicking on the sub-links, to look at the new listings, because no new posts of such topics will appear in the “Today's posts” or “New posts” listings.

This is just my suggestion, and as I said I do not know if it is technically possible but if it is I think it would be a very good idea. The moderators could move any threads that were created outside of the “Forum/Member Discussion” subheading quickly into it so that the general flow of the forum is not disrupted by continual criticisms and continual disruptions which filter out into and contaminate all of the real topic threads which just don't need this kind of hassle.

Sincerely

Keith

[Rocky_Shorz]

I suggested we just have a goodbye thread that auto unsubscribes up in the Welcome to Avalon area...

one of my favorite forums in the past had a parking lot section, and all heated topics were dumped in, blocked from non members view...

what ends up happening, is a few people that think discussions are meant to happen at the top of their lungs would meet others and they would hop in and vent until they were exhausted and would go back to regular discussions...

most members never read the topics so it didn't flow into the main forum

no one was kicked for keeping it in the parking lot...

[crosby]

please remember that removing threads out of view from the main area may be misconstrued as a form of censoring. this is a hot topic right now, that's for sure. i don't know if there are any answers, or fixes. i am remaining neutral on all aspects of this situation. i just don't know what the right or wrong thing to do is. ya know what i mean?
regards, corson

[Rocky_Shorz]

doesn't matter, it means the public doesn't deserve to watch us at our worst...

every thread can be started and discussed without heat, if ti shows in a thread, it can be tossed into the parking lot just copying where the heat started.

posts disappear from the discussion like they never happened...

not censoring, consider it housecleaning.

if someone gets sick on the floor, do you leave it there, or call our faithful janitors to sweep the mess up like it never happened?

[Siberia9]

It sounds ok to me, make it members only too that way the in fighting is done in private. The mods could even give a little (just a little)more room to fight it out over there since its not public and you agree to the rules before you step in the ring, if you will.

[Rocky_Shorz]

exactly and though I say I don't like fights, you'd find me peeking in quite often, I guess we are all drawn to it for some reason, I just don't want good members disappearing because of a bad moment of judgement on anyones parts...

we're making a difference here at Avalon, though most of the world doesn't know...


we have PTB watching our every move, no sense in letting them enjoy watching our bickering...


some of our most important topics were in the Parking lot, we had group discussions the world couldn't see...

Imagine if you knew the only way you could see our most important discussions was to be a member. Do you think people would be so anxious to get tossed out of Avalon if they knew it would cut them off from what matters?

I have 8 companies that I'm ready to pick up in my left hand...

gas dropped 52 cents in 2 weeks... ;)

This is an area I would want to do it from...

[Providence]

Dear group

What I would suggest therefore, and I do not know if this is technically possible, but perhaps one of the administrators or moderators might know: is it possible that all of the threads started on topics about banning people, disagreements on the direction of the forum, or procedural disagreements with regards to moderator decisions; and all such related arguments, could be confined to one forum subheading, and isolated from the rest of the forum?

What I mean is this: create a forum subgroup, e.g. “Forum/Member Discussion”, under the main forum headings, such as one might have “General Discussion”or “Spirituality” for example, and if anybody wishes to start a thread on such a topic, on such as why a person was banned, or whatever, then they have to post it under this heading.

But this point is critical - Do not allow any posts on these issues to appear in the “Today's posts” or “New posts” listings.



Please don't take this wrong Keith, but I disagree. I totally understand where you are coming from but this is a community and I don't think that 'cleansing' the forum of any perceived dissension among ourselves is wise.

We're not the average community, we have very diverse views, coming from diverse backgrounds, and our differences and the desire to understand or challenge our own reality is what makes this community more than just a bulletin board for daily chatter.

I read the articles where disagreements are posted, where we question whether or not the moderators are doing what they are supposed to be doing or being too heavy handed, and I'm not offended. I think it's very healthy, and as far as most of the posts are concerned, conclusions are reached, viewpoints are moulded, and the outcome is a stronger sense of community.

I vote to keep the forum 'real' by allowing the occasional peppering of address of grievances or expressions of perceived unfairness to be in the mainstream of the forum. Moving these types of discussions to a separate area does not promote the interaction that these types of discussions need to be resolved.

Great thread, great thought, I just tend to disagree (and ain't that great!)

Peace

[qbeac]

…But this point is critical - Do not allow any posts on these issues to appear in the “Today's posts” or “New posts” listings.

Please don't take this wrong Keith, but I disagree (1). I totally understand where you are coming from but this is a community and I don't think that 'cleansing' the forum of any perceived dissension among ourselves is wise (2).

We're not the average community (3), we have very diverse views, coming from diverse backgrounds, and our differences and the desire to understand or challenge our own reality is what makes this community more than just a bulletin board for daily chatter (4).

I read the articles where disagreements are posted, where we question whether or not the moderators are doing what they are supposed to be doing or being too heavy handed, and I'm not offended (5). I think it's very healthy (6), and as far as most of the posts are concerned, conclusions are reached, viewpoints are moulded, and the outcome is a stronger sense of community (7).

I vote to keep the forum 'real' (8) by allowing the occasional peppering of address of grievances or expressions of perceived unfairness to be in the mainstream of the forum (9). Moving these types of discussions to a separate area does not promote the interaction that these types of discussions need to be resolved (10).

Great thread, great thought, I just tend to disagree (and ain't that great!)

Peace
Hi Providence, what a great post you have written, 5 STARS to you, absolutely brilliant, congratulations!

I have underlined several comments in your post and marked them with a number because I totally agree with all of those key points you have made, which are:



1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, and 10

We need to choose between two different options:



a) Do we try to hide our faults (errors, mistakes, etc.)?

b) Do we confront them with sincerity and transparency and try to find solutions for them?

That’s precisely why JFK, in his famous 1961 speech, said the things he said, such us, for example:



Without debate, without criticism, no Administration (…) can succeed; (…) I not only could not stifle controversy among your readers -- I welcome it; (…) We intend to accept full responsibility for our errors and we expect you to point them out when we miss them… etc.
The complete and impressive JFK speech can be read at Post #127, pag. 7:
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?20545-Censorship-here&p=219355&viewfull=1#post219355

--------------------------------------

As I mentioned in my post 259 (pag 13) at link:
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?20545-Censorship-here&p=220561&viewfull=1#post220561

... this debate originated, among other reasons, because many members asked themselves the following questions (see complete text in above link):



Are members being removed/banned without justifiable reasons, according to the 'guidelines' of PA? (Ex: like with Chicodoodoo)

Is there any guideline that prohibits members for questioning and debating the quality of the moderating activity?

Are the Avalon guidelines aligned with the spirit of a free and open society, and with the spirit of free speech (as JFK explains in his famous 1961 speech)?

And I added :



It is the moderating quality, and the moderation removal of members that is in question.

It is the good design and application of the guidelines that is in question.

This should interest every member.

--------------------------------------

So, let’s try to find solutions, let me share with you some of them I can think of, but any other suggestions are more than welcome:

POSSIBLE SOLUTIONS:



Should or could the Avalon forum include some type of system to allow its members to evaluate the level of quality of the moderating team, or the level of satisfaction about the moderating activity?
Let me explain how that could be done:

In each thread there is a button that allows members to choose the number of stars (from 5 to 0) in relation to the quality of that thread.

Well, could something similar be implemented for moderating decisions, or for moderator’s attitudes or behaviours?

For instance, if a moderator ban a person, the members of the forum could express their opinion about it: how just, unjust, fair or unfair, wise or unwise, that decision was by pressing a button (5 stars… 0 stars), or something like that (the details could be worked out later).

This possibility is not uncommon in real life, and I’ll give you a couple of examples:



Questionnaire of the level of satisfaction or quality
When I was in School, every once in a while the managers of the School would come in and give us (the students) a sheet of paper (a file, a questionnaire) with key questions about our teachers, so that we could express our level of satisfaction about the level of quality of that particular teacher.

The managers of the School knew very well that that system helped to improve the level of quality of the teachers and the level of satisfaction of the students with regards to their teachers.



Complaint sheet
Another example: in many shops, restaurants, businesses, institutions, etc., they have a complaint sheet that you can fill up in case you are not satisfied with anything of that place or person working for it. For instance, because you thought they didn’t treat you right or politely, or the product wasn’t good, etc.

Same as above: it improves the system and its quality.



Opening Polls about important subjects
Another option which we already have is opening Polls about important subjects, because a Poll will show us a specific type of data (numeric data, percentages, specific opinion trends, etc.) that a regular thread without a Poll will not be able to show us, as for example, this Poll, which is already showing values (numbers, etc.) that we didn’t know before:

Poll: Banning for misalignment
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?20597-Banning-for-misalignment

--------------------------------------

Well, could similar things be done about the moderators and the moderating activity in any Internet forum, including this one?

Will those initiatives improve or not the level of quality of this forum?

What do you all think?

[sshenry]

I look at it as a way to practice self-restraint and detachment.

I see the subjects come up in 'today's posts', and simply ignore them.

It works wonders :)

[Lord Sidious]

Are you going to post that same rubbish again and again qbeac?
The well was empty the first 34,403 times you went to it, what makes you think there is water there now?

[pickle]

.........................What do you all think?

I think Lightpotential has a good idea - keep the more contentious 'forum-rule-making-by-the-people-for-the-people' in a place where 'forum-rule-making-by-the-people-for-the-people' is a sought-after subject.

I wonder what happens to Avalon forum applications that state; "I would like to join and suggest a 'monitoring system' of the moderators, with a 'feedback loop' to make sure no-one will be banned unless all of the members are consulted"? Bill is clear when you sign up, why not be clear about your intentions when you sign up? Why not contact Bill or the mods directly with your ideas in the first place?

I think Chicadoo, yourself and others that want to see the fundamental changes you describe are doing nothing other than insult the mods, and maybe having a little fun rattling a few cages. Personally I think you're taking the mickey.


Thank you for inviting our opinion.

[SKIBADABOMSKI]

Okay... but what about the mod's? this must sound like a nightmare for them. Locked in a cell with possibly the likes of crazed, drunk, angry, argumentative, never ending babbling, can't and won't surrender types of arguing. Enough to put a good decent mod in a position to say " sack this, I can't do this every night "

A Venting Room could be handy in some ways but you know how it works... pm's flying about, " psst hey it's kicking off in the Venting Room" everyone piling in and getting involved.

Personally I have a gander at these threads and then get bored very quickly. Thus I leave and even then I feel sorry for the ones arguing. But I soon freshen up. Sometimes I love it when it gets juicy and I'm in the mood to watch a drama but lately it's been very nick picky. Thus kind of boring.

So I think a slaughter house might seem like a good idea but for the mods it's guaranteed misery.

Ski-

[buckminster fuller]

Are you going to post that same rubbish again and again qbeac?
The well was empty the first 34,403 times you went to it, what makes you think there is water there now?

Well, I now have a hint as to who is hiding behind this hoodie... It's you don diego, is it not ? Can't help but protect the widow and the orphan...

More seriously, I think you should be moderated for this post... But as you're using the complying stance a lot I guess you'll be ok wit that...? Hope so anyway... :focus:

I don't want to answer for qbeac, but as I had one ready.. Please qbeac, correct me if I'm wrong...

Maybe, just maybe because only fools never change their minds... Maybe, just maybe.. who knows... because a forum is alive only through his members, and that in a forum such as avalon, where I think we all agree that members are not the worst close minded people, any important subject such as this one should naturally find people willing to debate it in an intelligent, constructive manner (and yes, deconstruction is a way to envision, reconstruct new, bettered things.
Orthodoxy, one way or another, is making its nest here as it seems, and provides that from happening... I'm sorry you decided to be the tool for it.

Peace

[Snowbird]

I can see the merits of a parking lot scenario that is members-only. It would allow the steam to be vented. Although I have to tell you, that I would never want to be the moderator in charge of that area. Bill might consider this for a test period. The problem that I foresee with this however, is that when anyone disagrees with anyone about anything, it will show up in the parking lot.

I have posted on other forums where any mere mention of a moderator or what they do or do not do, earns demerits and bannings. Moderators are human beings with human opinions and emotions. They are not robotic machines. Their unpaid voluntary jobs are very difficult. Where on one hand I am very appreciative of the monotonous work that they offer, I also don't always agree with their assessments or opinions. But that is part of what makes us human.

I have posted on forums where once you learn how to write around the rules, you can pretty much say whatever you want with respect. You just have to learn the rules and learn them well.

It is easy to forget those rules when in the midst of heated discussion. It might help if those rules, even abbreviated, were posted at the top of every thread on every board. Similar to the channeling disclaimer on the Spirituality board. These would be for members-only to read. These would also remind us how far we can go in heated discussion.

[buckminster fuller]

I think Chicadoo, yourself and others that want to see the fundamental changes you describe are doing nothing other than insult the mods, and maybe having a little fun rattling a few cages. Personally I think you're taking the mickey.


Thank you for inviting our opinion.

... If moderation was really at stake here, you would'nt be able to post this kind of line... You do so only because you know that you stand on the "right" side of the river. At least chico and qbeac have something to bring to this forum other than judgement and criticism. But that must be beyond your radar...

Thank you for inviting the good opinion.

Peace

[ROMANWKT]

I think that the best answer would be that we just don't contribute to the thread and it will die from it own accord.
regards to all
roman

[ulli]

What I find ironic is that Nexus came about because a moderator was fired for attacking a poster.
Ok, so he was defending his wife, the ultimate excuse of men going to war ever since Adam was genetically engineered.
Still, it's ironic.

So because of treaties and loyalties pushing and pulling Nexus grew, getting an identity all of it's own.
But the real identity of anything lies in the original seed, which was an emotional outburst, and that is still the flavour over there.
Sadness, too, as the situation isn't shifting to a positive creativity.
What I'm seeing here is like a bunch of people on an ice shoal which is slowly breaking up and the pieces are floating apart.

And then comes a moment when a crack appears between the feet of one single person, and they have to make a choice about which foot to move across and which ice shoal to step onto and determine which group they will ultimately belong to.

[phillipbbg]

Don't know what all the fuss is about, it takes 2 to argue, everything that happens to us has it origin in our own mouth so to speak. Also if when we read conflicting posts we need to be MINDFUL and look at what is really going on. Make a choice to continue reading or move on to another thread. Most arguments are quite boring when you look at them as an observer. Having said that everyone is entitled to vent their opinion, it it is what they are about so be it......

When every one jumps in with opinions then sits back on the fence it reminds me of what I call the crow mentality... if a single crow is injured or suffering it screams at the top of its voice... all the other crows in the area come to see what's going on, they squawk and screech there opinions from the trees above whilst watching and enjoying the spectacle of one of there own suffering on the ground..

We all have free will and need to ensure we don't deny others the same privilege.

[jjl]

What I find ironic is that Nexus came about because a moderator was fired for attacking a poster.
Thank you Ulli, too many people forget that it was Lee B that was sacrificed.

[buckminster fuller]

I think that the best answer would be that we just don't contribute to the thread and it will die from it own accord.
regards to all
roman

Cynical mode on again...

Exactly, let us all follow our owns agendas, with no regard for other's attempts, right or wrong, to better things. Things are meant to better by themselves, I tend to forget that... It's all written in scripture, crop circles and channeling... As for this particular thread, I agree it had no real purpose but to stir up things some more... As if the loss of a prominent member wasn't enough bs to go through... Montjoie Saint Denis !!!

[ROMANWKT]

I think that the best answer would be that we just don't contribute to the thread and it will die from it own accord.
regards to all
roman

Cynical mode on again...

Exactly, let us all follow our owns agendas, with no regard for other's attempts, right or wrong, to better things. Things are meant to better by themselves, I tend to forget that... It's all written in scripture, crop circles and channeling... As for this particular thread, I agree it had no real purpose but to stir up things some more... As if the loss of a prominent member wasn't enough bs to go through... Montjoie Saint Denis !!!

I can take that answer 2 ways, which way do you really intend me to take it, either way, it doesn't matter buckminster fuller.
my regards to you and I mean it no other way
roman

[ulli]

What I find ironic is that Nexus came about because a moderator was fired for attacking a poster.
Thank you Ulli, too many people forget that it was Lee B that was sacrificed.

Has Lee ever tried to return to Avalon?
If that's what he desires I'm sure it can be accomplished.

Using my ice shoal analogy, some people actually fall into those cold waters underneath
during the pushing and shoving....but with help even they can be pulled up.

All of this is the dynamic I was going through years ago before I finally learnt
that life is about self definition and taking responsibility for all of one's happenings.

It's a process....

[ulli]

I think that the best answer would be that we just don't contribute to the thread and it will die from it own accord.
regards to all
roman

Cynical mode on again...

Exactly, let us all follow our owns agendas, with no regard for other's attempts, right or wrong, to better things. Things are meant to better by themselves, I tend to forget that... It's all written in scripture, crop circles and channeling... As for this particular thread, I agree it had no real purpose but to stir up things some more... As if the loss of a prominent member wasn't enough bs to go through... Montjoie Saint Denis !!!

Was it really such a loss? Sure, if you had formed a friendship there would be hurt feelings now, so I can understand.

But how long does it take to go to the favorites button and open the Nexus link?
I bet you that the Nexus forum is making anyone coming across from Avalon quite comfortable and welcome,
and you could probably even go there and ask for an email addy, if you had such a close bond.

This reminds me of all the ex-pat communities I have frequented throughout my life, having lived in four countries.
It's tough. The feeling of home is lost forever.
Something new will soon come along...

[Mr54]

Two options really:

1. Search and destroy! Burn out the dissenters with a righteous holy flame. Seems popular?

2. Or we can try something different and perhaps more brotherly:

All I'm saying is simply this, that all life is interrelated, that somehow we're caught in an inescapable network of mutuality tied in a single garment of destiny. Whatever affects one directly affects all indirectly. For some strange reason, I can never be what I ought to be until you are what you ought to be. You can never be what you ought to be until I am what I ought to be. This is the interrelated structure of reality.

— Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

Me...... I'm with Dr King!

[Mark Aldebaran]

We are all children.
Look back at your own behaviour ten years ago, or even last week ~ it's a journey.
Be patient with the younger ones, they will grow or leave.
If they press your buttons, then you should look inwards.

[buckminster fuller]

Cynical mode on again...

Exactly, let us all follow our owns agendas, with no regard for other's attempts, right or wrong, to better things. Things are meant to better by themselves, I tend to forget that... It's all written in scripture, crop circles and channeling... As for this particular thread, I agree it had no real purpose but to stir up things some more... As if the loss of a prominent member wasn't enough bs to go through... Montjoie Saint Denis !!!

Was it really such a loss? Sure, if you had formed a friendship there would be hurt feelings now, so I can understand.

It is a loss for avalon, don't get me wrong, the ability to connect dots, synthesize, is the number one quality needed here in avalon if we are looking for answers, whatever the subject. Not everyone is good at this game, too often a person's beliefs system is anchored too deep to let it go. This was not the case with chico, he has a real talent for that. Thus it is a loss to all.


But how long does it take to go to the favorites button and open the Nexus link?
I bet you that the Nexus forum is making anyone coming across from Avalon quite comfortable and welcome,
and you could probably even go there and ask for an email addy, if you had such a close bond.

The favorites button..? Please, no need for sarcasm and schoolyard considerations. It reminds me of kids "... if you like him/them you're not my friend anymore..." Memories anyone ?

Seriously.... I haven't yet posted on nexus2012, why should its adress be in my favorites ? That is schematically this attitude that endangers this forum. Members allowing themselves to judge other members when they simply know nothing about them.



This reminds me of all the ex-pat communities I have frequented throughout my life, having lived in four countries.
It's tough. The feeling of home is lost forever.
Something new will soon come along...

Yet another display of personal wiseness.. free of charge... Has nothing to do with what we're talking about, only brings about some pathos .. Who needs that in those days ?
EDIT: it reminds me of celine... addicted to pathos.

Peace

[ulli]

Cynical mode on again...

Exactly, let us all follow our owns agendas, with no regard for other's attempts, right or wrong, to better things. Things are meant to better by themselves, I tend to forget that... It's all written in scripture, crop circles and channeling... As for this particular thread, I agree it had no real purpose but to stir up things some more... As if the loss of a prominent member wasn't enough bs to go through... Montjoie Saint Denis !!!

Was it really such a loss? Sure, if you had formed a friendship there would be hurt feelings now, so I can understand.

It is a loss for avalon, don't get me wrong, the ability to connect dots, synthesize, is the number one quality needed here in avalon if we are looking for answers, whatever the subject. Not everyone is good at this game, too often a person's beliefs system is anchored too deep to let it go. This was not the case with chico, he has a real talent for that. Thus it is a loss to all.


But how long does it take to go to the favorites button and open the Nexus link?
I bet you that the Nexus forum is making anyone coming across from Avalon quite comfortable and welcome,
and you could probably even go there and ask for an email addy, if you had such a close bond.

The favorites button..? Please, no need for sarcasm and schoolyard considerations. It reminds me of kids "... if you like him/them you're not my friend anymore..." Memories anyone ?

Seriously.... I haven't yet posted on nexus2012, why should its adress be in my favorites ? That is schematically this attitude that endangers this forum. Members allowing themselves to judge other members when they simply know nothing about them.



This reminds me of all the ex-pat communities I have frequented throughout my life, having lived in four countries.
It's tough. The feeling of home is lost forever.
Something new will soon come along...

Yet another display of personal wiseness.. free of charge... Has nothing to do with what we're talking about, only brings about some pathos .. Who needs that in those days ?
EDIT: it reminds me of celine... addicted to pathos.

Peace

the funny thing is I wasn't being sarcastic, just wise.
Wise is my schtick.
I see nothing wrong with trying to be wise.
Mixed with humor.



http://projectavalon.net/forum4/attachment.php?attachmentid=7459&thumb=1&d=1305649614

[Rocky_Shorz]

I can see the merits of a parking lot scenario that is members-only. It would allow the steam to be vented. Although I have to tell you, that I would never want to be the moderator in charge of that area. Bill might consider this for a test period. The problem that I foresee with this however, is that when anyone disagrees with anyone about anything, it will show up in the parking lot.

I have posted on other forums where any mere mention of a moderator or what they do or do not do, earns demerits and bannings. Moderators are human beings with human opinions and emotions. They are not robotic machines. Their unpaid voluntary jobs are very difficult. Where on one hand I am very appreciative of the monotonous work that they offer, I also don't always agree with their assessments or opinions. But that is part of what makes us human.

I have posted on forums where once you learn how to write around the rules, you can pretty much say whatever you want with respect. You just have to learn the rules and learn them well.

It is easy to forget those rules when in the midst of heated discussion. It might help if those rules, even abbreviated, were posted at the top of every thread on every board. Similar to the channeling disclaimer on the Spirituality board. These would be for members-only to read. These would also remind us how far we can go in heated discussion.

well for many doing the drop scenario is exactly what they want, where the post was, it gets a forward link to the discussion.

most of the time the fire is not related to the conversation, it is members bumping heads...

I've seen enemies walk in turn into friends before they crawled out...

it really works

it can be member moderated so if &^% start everyone hits the flag button giving notification to any handy mods.

It's a full moon and we are finishing with a wicked long moon cycle so everyone should be fine tomorrow...

until then...

be good... ;)

[jsb_swampfox]

I say, do what I do....it's super easy. I dont read it. People will come and go thru out our lives, this forum is an aspect of our lives...right? I can agree or disagree with whomever I want and not take it personal.

[jjl]

Buckminster says:EDIT: it reminds me of celine... addicted to pathos.

It seems an ugly thing to have said on both womens' behalf. Mods?

[Rocky_Shorz]

sounds good in theory, but many forum members don't have lives, this is it...

a forum like this has every spectrum from the planet, most members just quietly follow along tossing in a comment once in a while, but once a ripple happens, they don't just go away until members have a chance to talk, at the end, they might up agreeing to disagree, but now both members will know each other in a more personal way and will be less likely to ever go on an attack against the other...

we'll be fine and opening a new private section only takes a few minutes to create. we aren't reinventing the wheel, this has been how most forums I am part of operate... Much of what I would like to share I can't here...

imagine with a parking lot from the beginning...

we might have never had any members leave, isn't that was this conversation is really about?

[buckminster fuller]

Buckminster says:EDIT: it reminds me of celine... addicted to pathos.

It seems an ugly thing to have said on both womens' behalf. Mods?

Didn't feel ugly to say.. Thought I was not implying that ulli is addicted to anything... But to use pathos oriented statements don't make good, healthy rethoric. Emotions are the tool of the trade when it comes to controlling others. From what I observed, Celine, towards whom I have no carnivorous appetite, is almost only using emotional, poetic lines . I favour reasoning over pathos, that's all...

Yet... That was not so much in the style of coubertain jjl.

Peace

[ulli]

Buckminster says:EDIT: it reminds me of celine... addicted to pathos.

It seems an ugly thing to have said on both womens' behalf. Mods?

Didn't feel ugly to say.. Thought I was not implying that ulli is addicted to anything... But to use pathos oriented statements don't make good, healthy rethoric. Emotions are the tool of the trade when it comes to controlling others. From what I observed, Celine, towards whom I have no carnivorous appetite, is almost only using emotional, poetic lines . I favour reasoning over pathos, that's all...

Yet... That was not so much in the style of coubertain jjl.

Peace

Pathos was the word of your choice, hence your projection at TWO women...one of them you addressed and the other you mentioned by name in her absense.
Let me make a wild guess:
You have issues with pathos, ;) as well as women??
Boy's club might suit you better?;)

[buckminster fuller]

the funny thing is I wasn't being sarcastic, just wise.
Wise is my schtick.
I see nothing wrong with trying to be wise.
Mixed with humor.

Well I don't see wiseness here. I lived in 3 countries, does that make me less wise than you are ?
Do I need to make a display of my own wiseness ? (Not talking about passing ideas on...)
Was it wise to you to make statements about me that do not concord with reality ? Was it wise to post at all, knowing you didn't know ?

[Rocky_Shorz]

this is a perfect example of discussions not near the topic, auto dump to the parking lot because if it doesn't get talked out, this fight will spread like a cancer from thread to thread...

This discussion will lead to the usual outcome without talking things out...

walks over to check the guillotine blade...

[Jendayi]

I look at it as a way to practice self-restraint and detachment.

I see the subjects come up in 'today's posts', and simply ignore them.

It works wonders :)


I think that the best answer would be that we just don't contribute to the thread and it will die from it own accord.
regards to all
roman


We are all children.
Look back at your own behaviour ten years ago, or even last week ~ it's a journey.
Be patient with the younger ones, they will grow or leave.
If they press your buttons, then you should look inwards.
the above statements, imho, are the most wise in this thread...
and i agree

[buckminster fuller]

Buckminster says:EDIT: it reminds me of celine... addicted to pathos.

It seems an ugly thing to have said on both womens' behalf. Mods?

Didn't feel ugly to say.. Thought I was not implying that ulli is addicted to anything... But to use pathos oriented statements don't make good, healthy rethoric. Emotions are the tool of the trade when it comes to controlling others. From what I observed, Celine, towards whom I have no carnivorous appetite, is almost only using emotional, poetic lines . I favour reasoning over pathos, that's all...

Yet... That was not so much in the style of coubertain jjl.

Peace

Pathos was the word of your choice, hence your projection at TWO women...one of them you addressed and the other you mentioned by name in her absense.
Let me make a wild guess:
You have issues with pathos, ;) as well as women??
Boy's club might suit you better?;)

The word you were looking for is mysophobia. It is a pretty wild guess... Only by combination did I get to be reminded of Celine. I know that wasn't so gentleman to bring it here, and I do need to apologise for that. And as for me having a problem with women... I don't think so.. Not because they are women anyway...

Thing is... I didn't even know of which sex you were born ulli....
Now I know, and will try to get back my french touch, just don't portray me in an unjustifiable manner.

Peace

[kersley]

@lightpotential.
Keith I know exactly your thinking. I have a better idea !!! The Mods create a banned poll. who ever gets the most weekly votes get suspended for a month. keep getting voted and off you go for good.
I sometimes feel that i can't express myself in fear that i would be attacked. It has happened to a few people on here and myself. We should all be able to say what we like without the bully tactics, name calling, and the lack of respect for other peoples views. A voting system would be fair and point out the negative trouble makers.
What you guys think?

[ulli]

:ranger: :ranger:
thinking....thinking...thinking...

Pathos was a word which you had used yourself...
check your initial post to me...

and do not try French seduction on me, I'm even more allergic to that than displays of paranoia ;)

[Lord Sidious]

Are you going to post that same rubbish again and again qbeac?
The well was empty the first 34,403 times you went to it, what makes you think there is water there now?

Well, I now have a hint as to who is hiding behind this hoodie... It's you don diego, is it not ? Can't help but protect the widow and the orphan...

More seriously, I think you should be moderated for this post... But as you're using the complying stance a lot I guess you'll be ok wit that...? Hope so anyway... :focus:

I don't want to answer for qbeac, but as I had one ready.. Please qbeac, correct me if I'm wrong...

Maybe, just maybe because only fools never change their minds... Maybe, just maybe.. who knows... because a forum is alive only through his members, and that in a forum such as avalon, where I think we all agree that members are not the worst close minded people, any important subject such as this one should naturally find people willing to debate it in an intelligent, constructive manner (and yes, deconstruction is a way to envision, reconstruct new, bettered things.
Orthodoxy, one way or another, is making its nest here as it seems, and provides that from happening... I'm sorry you decided to be the tool for it.

Peace

By all means, I am open to know how I broke the guidelines.
The same thing over and over gets boring.
Especially when it was answered.

[Sarlic]

I dont always agree with Qbeacs posts but i really appreciate the time and effort the man puts into finding the truth.

Sorry getting back on topic.
I dont see any solution to the continued criticism of the Avalon forum due to the amount of moderation and bans that happen here.

Im in two minds over this because i for one joined Avalon to get away from any type of control but on the other hand i think most
people have seen the kind of abuse and name calling that happens on forums when people are left to freely speak their minds so
I think its a case of it is what it is.

[buckminster fuller]

:ranger: :ranger:
thinking....thinking...thinking...

Pathos was a word which you had used yourself...
check your initial post to me...

and do not try French seduction on me, I'm even more allergic to that than displays of paranoia ;)

Just saw your avatar... I must have known you were a women when writing...
Still... I'm good with the female kind...

I didn't say that you used the word pathos... The tone of your last sentence was itself filled with it..

Anyway... Jjl decided to handle that matter. I'm done with this thread.

Love you girls..

Peace

[Seikou-Kishi]

"I'm good with the female kind"? Stand down Lothario :P

[Cigan Mojia]

A private parking lot, to air grievances, members only and aside from the public domain, with the express understanding that “this will be a good clean fight.”

Good in theory… but nearly impossible to apply with so many differing views, socio-cultural divides and belief structures at every point in the spectrum.

Several realities exist when a forum of this magnitude includes anything other than Yes-men/women or any designation of a similar view. Off-topic hostile takeover, arguments abound, trolling, personal attacks and flaming occurs when the imperfect being shares its view with another imperfect being, both thinking their view is the most accurate and correct.

This is why I prefer Bill Ryan’s approach to journalistic integrity. I’m not going to try to tell you what’s what, or where your view is skewed, I am simply listening and grateful for the opportunity to experience another dimension of this discussion.

….However…. were we to attempt to implement this Parking Lot theory, who would be the “bouncers” of the club, escorting surly members to resolve their issues out of the public eye? How would these moderators decide what constitutes behavior or comments that warrant the Parking Lot thread? How many times can you get kicked out of a club before you’re banned for good?

Would those members who have disrupted the peace then be put on a probationary period, able to access only the Parking Lot Threads until either they work out the frustrations, or an allotment of time has passed?

Or have I completely missed the motivation for this discussion? Maybe one of our more Tech-minded members could break down the how and wherefore of operating a sub project of this magnitude, at least in laymen’s terms for those of us still unsure of the process.

[lightpotential]

Dear group

I admit that it is a subtle problem, and one that is no doubt to be had in all forums. What I am really trying to get at is the issue of separating out posts which essentially criticise the forum itself, or the moderators, or decisions which affect the members, from posts created to explore areas that the forum was truly intended for.

I know some people may think that my suggestion somehow implies that I support the hiding of dissent or of ‘shovelling things under the carpet’ so to speak, but in fact what I think would occur if we were to create a dedicated subcategory for “Forum Matters” – or whatever title we may call it, is that people would be more forthright in their opinions within a contained environment.

All that I am really wanting is to have all of these posts, such as “I am leaving, it's been nice but I need to move on, this forum is no longer of any use to me”, “why was ‘so and so’ banned I think the decision is outrageous etc etc”, “is this forum bought and paid for? Blah blah blah”, separated completely from those posts which are created to discuss real topics of interest to what is the true goal of Avalon, which ultimately one would generally state as being a forum to enlighten members as to the truth.

Having a subcategory in the forum listing which allows people to create new threads regarding topics of banning and moderator decisions, etc, but not have any posts from such a forum subcategory appear in the ‘New Posts’ or ‘Today’s Posts’ listings I think would be very beneficial, and far from ‘hiding’ dissent, I honestly think that if such a sub-forum or subcategory were created, then people would be MORE forthright in their opinions than they would under the present system, knowing that there was a certain ‘authorisation’ to the arena in question.

And thus I think we would get more truth within that arena - but in a contained way - that does not ‘contaminate’ the whole of the forum, such as would be a blatant turnoff even to guests who may not be members and that browse the forum and see all of these continual posts, one after the other, about dissatisfaction issues, who may even be dissuaded from actively becoming members.

Sincerely

Keith

[firstlook]

I guess the way I see it is that anybody here has the option to PM Bill or the mods and start a more personal palaver about things. This creates a more organized and honest system where The Mods and Bill can actually reflect more accurately and specifically without taking everyones opinion on another's opinion on opinion of opinion. :p

Effectiveness is the measure of truth.

[noxon medem]

Dear group

I do not post all too frequently within this forum, but I do browse the forum almost on a daily basis and try to seek out topics which are of interest in which I might contribute towards.

What I would suggest therefore, and I do not know if this is technically possible, but perhaps one of the administrators or moderators might know: is it possible that all of the threads started on topics about banning people, disagreements on the direction of the forum, or procedural disagreements with regards to moderator decisions; and all such related arguments, could be confined to one forum subheading, and isolated from the rest of the forum?

What I mean is this: create a forum subgroup, e.g. “Forum/Member Discussion”, under the main forum headings, such as one might have “General Discussion”or “Spirituality” for example, and if anybody wishes to start a thread on such a topic, on such as why a person was banned, or whatever, then they have to post it under this heading.

But this point is critical - Do not allow any posts on these issues to appear in the “Today's posts” or “New posts” listings.

That way, all such posts are put into an isolated corner and do not disrupt the created threads on real topics that people might have an interest in. I think that all this continual discussion about members leaving, people being banned, people criticising the moderators, is essentially contaminating the entire forum. What we need is to have these kinds of discussions isolated and cut off from the main forum headings and topics. Create therefore a separate subheading within the main Forum index and put all such posts in there.

If a person wants to engage in those discussions they can do so freely within that menu heading, but with the knowledge that members essentially have to literally go down to that menu heading – clicking on the sub-links, to look at the new listings, because no new posts of such topics will appear in the “Today's posts” or “New posts” listings.

This is just my suggestion, and as I said I do not know if it is technically possible but if it is I think it would be a very good idea. The moderators could move any threads that were created outside of the “Forum/Member Discussion” subheading quickly into it so that the general flow of the forum is not disrupted by continual criticisms and continual disruptions which filter out into and contaminate all of the real topic threads which just don't need this kind of hassle.

Sincerely

Keith

Hello, lightpotential.
I understand the rationale behind your suggestion, in my way,
but have to add a little observation and some comments to this.

- first:
There were only two (not so active) threads about the subject of
internal scrutiny and Avalon selfcritisism, and little sign of it spreading
onto the hundreds of threads of all the other valuable topics.
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?20545-Censorship-here
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?20597-Banning-for-misalignment

Now there is three threads of this, since you started yet another
instead of posting on the other two.
(You do bring a new angle to it,so the thread is justified in a way)

What I feel is spreading is a kind of cautious and suspicious climate,
mostly created by the actions of the mods and admins here.
( A bit like in the old east europe or any opressive society, USA next ? )
I read different threads and think: is this just synchronisity or is this
person giving some covert message regarding the prosess on Avalon
these days ? ( this is a periode-thing, triggered by understandable factors)
Here are two examples:
(I do underline this is my assosiation, not in any way the OPs intention)
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?20574-The-Lessers
and
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?20668-Shhh...

The last is especialy interesting, as dear Darla actualy took it for a
concrete, even overt, critisism of Bill Ryan, and acted from that viewpoint.

So that climate is spreading, but is exclusively the result of poor and
unjust moderation. I know it is hard to be a moderator, but for me it is
hard to see where lack of experience ends and incompetence begins.
( I am not ready to assign malicious intent to any of them at this point )

Chicodoodoo, in the Censorship-thread, voiced some concerns about
recent developement on Avalon. I view him as honest in his intent when
he say his main focus is the health and developement of the forum.
He was passionate, yes (bless him), but civilized, sensible and logic
in his posting. In the middle of dialogue Paul decides to "deactivate" him.
A terrible mistake from Paul, and the direct reason we are still in this mess.

( - Everything written here is personal opinion, I do not have to say that again.)

About your suggestion:

If that model, or structure, is implied, then it will finalize the ongoing developement
here, and turn Avalon into the "mainstream media" of the "alternative community"
What you are suggesting being done here to Voices of inner critic and reflexion,
is exactly what the mainstream media are doing to alternative information, disclosure,
and real critical, knowledgable voices in society in general.

Read through your post again, and in your mind change your references to critics
here, with Disclosure, and all about this forum with Official Media , and
you are close to refering from a closed session in the Bilderberg group.
(know this is put on an edge, but done so trying to get a point across)

One of Chicos main points is that this forum is a reflection of the bigger society,
and we must be carefull not to emulate the same mechanisms unconsciously.
That is why I will stress the word Structure or Model.
If this is to be a model for a new society, then we can not, and must not,
perpetuate structures that we basicly disagree with, even if it is easyer and
more comfortable in the short run.
Then we are essentialy the same, even if the information is slightly different.
(I think the elite get a bigger laugh from that, then some justified inner quarrels)

Avalon has to be clear on this, and I want to know, so that I can keep in
line with the "spirit" and purpose of this forum.
Those have changed drasticaly at least twice in the last half year,
so forgive me for being a bit confused ...

The direction now is towards Avalon the Mainstream Alternative Media source,
whitch is ok by me, but if it gets too streamlined and conform (also happening)
then it will call for its own alternative (allready happened, and many excisting)

( But we do expect nothing less than a mass awakening, so then the more
wellrun "alternative" forums in excistence the better, for all, also Avalon )

My full view of your suggestion is a bit more diverse than I express here.
This is my initial spiked reaction, and I wanted you to read that, even if
it is allready a bit further developed through reading the thread.
Will try to expand on that later,
if neither I nor this thread(s) are closed down in the next days.
(sadly, no joke. That is how I perceive the climate here these days)

Sorry for all the words. And still they seem inadequate. (sigh..)

Something, allmost, completely different.
From the clown wars:
7468
Hope you have one on your team.
I know I do. ( It's me :- )

All well, and thanks for provoking new thought on this matter.

nm

[noxon medem]

One more thing :

I have only one practical suggestion for changing
the practise and way of Avalon moderation for now:

If a moderator/admin edit the text of a post from a member,
then a PM must immediately be sent to that member.

This should be a given routine, and easy to imply.
This goes to the respect for the thought and words
we all put into the forum. Some times it is even
well thought out and balances on every nuance.

This should be easy to agree on, what do you all say ?
I want a comment (confirmation) from the mod-team, please.
( I will not let this one go until you give a yes or no )

All well to the Mods as well.
For the most part you do a wonderful job.

:)
nm

Edit:
Limor has confirmed that what I suggest here allready
is the standard routine for the mod-team.
They send PMs when a post needs moderation, and in advance,
so members can have a chance to edit their posts themselves.
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?20545-Censorship-here&p=223324&viewfull=1#post223324

Thank you.

[Rocky_Shorz]

bumped for Bill's review...

[Lord Sidious]

One more thing :

I have only one practical suggestion for changing
the practise and way of Avalon moderation for now:

If a moderator/admin edit the text of a post from a member,
then a PM must immediately be sent to that member.

This should be a given routine, and easy to imply.
This goes to the respect for the thought and words
we all put into the forum. Some times it is even
well thought out and balances on every nuance.

This should be easy to agree on, what do you all say ?
I want a comment (confirmation) from the mod-team, please.
( I will not let this one go until you give a yes or no )

All well to the Mods as well.
For the most part you do a wonderful job.

:)
nm

The idea sounds good in principle, nothing wrong with it, it can prevent misunderstandings, recriminations and repeats of problems.
The one part that makes it hard is the amount of traffic on the forum.
A good idea none the less.

[noxon medem]

The idea sounds good in principle, nothing wrong with it, it can prevent misunderstandings, recriminations and repeats of problems.
The one part that makes it hard is the amount of traffic on the forum.
A good idea none the less.

I see the practical side of it, but with all the tech-wizzards here it should be possible
to more or less automate the message to the edited poster.

Notice that mods, the excamples I have seen, leave a description inside the post
as to what and why things are edited by them.

All that is needed for the member who wrote the post is a short
standarised message of the fact that alterations have been made,
and a reference to the post and thread in question.

Then they can check it out for themselves, and decide if they want
to leave it to that, adjust it further, or delete the post, if for excample
they feel the content is no longer complete, or in context.

All well
nm

[astrid]

solution=easy

Focus on your mission here.

Start threads that inform, inspire and empower each other and the world.

Where attention goes, energy flows...........

The world is watching, what do u want them to see??

We don't have to look very far for a reminder as to how powerful our thoughts, and words are.

Our thoughts and words are the energy we send to each other and the world.

http://www.masaru-emoto.net/newemoto/image/200903/sakura.jpg

What is your message??

Blessings,

Astrid

[noxon medem]

well for many doing the drop scenario is exactly what they want, where the post was, it gets a forward link to the discussion.

most of the time the fire is not related to the conversation, it is members bumping heads...

I've seen enemies walk in turn into friends before they crawled out...

it really works

it can be member moderated so if &^% start everyone hits the flag button giving notification to any handy mods.

until then...

be good... ;)

thank you, Rocky, for this posting.
( one of just too many ..)..
:)

You have me convinced that a "parking-lot" scenario
could be a way to go, also for this forum .

The important spectre of the Avalon Critisism-threads
could just as well be discussed openly, but mostly internaly .

Some threads could indeed be private to members only,
but should still be present in the todays posting section.

If I undestand this correct then there is currently a thread
about monogamy that fill that space between totaly public
and hidden away.
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?20674-Is-Monogamy-Natural

It is visible on todays postings if you are logged in as a member
And not for guests

- could be a model for the more internal, private, Avalon-discussions.

I see the point that there it could be wider space for personal
emotion, knowledge, and much, much, more .....
(and some useful threads might not be closed down so fast ..)
If slightly removed from public view.

Not all of these Internal Critisism Issues need to be aired in public.
( and some do, if I saw the recent forum I would love the openness )

Ok.

I have been having a wonderful day, driving my car
around on this island , and bringing the camera for once ,
capturing many images , some is now presented here :
(relevant or not)

if it is a
7659
then it should be
7660
or it ends up on
7658

love and all

nm

[noxon medem]

- so many words, inadequate ...
( he, he )

- so here some more images :
( totaly irrelevant to thread ..)

of(f) course

7661

..

7662

...

7663

..
in the end, all known physical matter,
no matter how cleverly perceived,
- will go back to nature (its) .....
.

Please
- do not look for complex symbolism .
( it is all very, very easy )

:)

Happy joyful holidays to all

:fish2:
nm

[Rocky_Shorz]

soo true my friend...

We still have time to make a huge difference in this world... ;)

I've seen what is beyond and it is beautiful, but let's take every day in this lifetime to make it the best it can be, for our children and those who follow.

Now is the time for change...