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Jonfen
25th May 2011, 05:05
So I've been thinking about this subject for awhile now, the idea that every solution to every problem leads to a fractaling out of more problems. Now I don't want to say knowledge is bad, because I seek it unrelentingly, but I've also noticed that while trying to keep an open mind about everything I read, if I find even the slightest bit of "logic" within it, it will have some sort of effect on me. I don't think this road will ever come to an end (perhaps that is the fun of it). Today I ran across this quote from the delightful Castaneda:

"A man goes to knowledge as he goes to war, wide awake, with fear, with respect, and with absolute assurance. Going to knowledge or going to war in any other manner is a mistake, and whoever makes it will live to regret his steps."

-- Carlos you-know-who

Is ignorance bliss? Perhaps, can something you don't know kill you? I don't know. The quest for knowledge sure is fun, but be careful, everything you read goes into you.

ponda
25th May 2011, 05:24
Yes discernment is important as is objectivity of perception and open mindedness.The rabbit hole might go deeper than we can ever imagine

Paul
25th May 2011, 05:27
A man goes to knowledge as he goes to war, wide awake, with fear, with respect, and with absolute assurance.
No, I think ignorance is not bliss. Rather I think that the attitude of being "wide awake, with fear, with respect, and with absolute assurance" puts a limit on obtaining higher levels of understanding.

Consider another example. The wise may have a few physical possessions that provide them with food, clothing, shelter and support their efforts. But unlike some titans of Wall Street, they do not approach obtaining wealth or material possesions with an attitude of being "wide awake, with fear, with respect, and with absolute assurance", for such an attitude would stunt their spiritual growth.

CorLian
25th May 2011, 05:29
This is the very reason I love and hate my reaction to question. The more I know, the less I know. I belive that makes sense, sort of anyways.

Jonfen
25th May 2011, 05:33
Growth though can happen in any and all directions, is it better to be the tree encompassing all paths (arguably you already are), or to discern which path is right for you, and not take everything that comes your way to heart? What is the end goal of spiritual growth, must every book be read by each individual (if you catch my drift)?

Jonfen
25th May 2011, 05:36
I need to learn how to use forums apparently, quoting thread posters, who does that anyway!? I'm such a spectator.

Tony
25th May 2011, 08:01
There is no end to creating. Creations create creations....endless.
So look at it another way. All creations come and go, which means they are impermanent. NOT REAL!
There are just atoms changing frequencies is space. Thinking about all this will driven you insane.

So what is real, what is constant in all possible universes?

A. The observer of all this play.......YOU!
Does that make any sense to you?

You are constant and unchanging. Not your thoughts, YOU, that simple awareness.
Simplicity is easy to overlook. The trouble is we have got used to exciting, interesting.... more more!

If someone wanted to keep you distracted, they'd produce another toy...and we fall for it.

Well, that's my tuppence worth,

Tony

crosby
25th May 2011, 08:11
Growth though can happen in any and all directions, is it better to be the tree encompassing all paths (arguably you already are), or to discern which path is right for you, and not take everything that comes your way to heart? What is the end goal of spiritual growth, must every book be read by each individual (if you catch my drift)?

hi Jonfen, and welcome to avalon. it is going to be different for each and every individual. remembering first that we are all ONE, if each individual takes one road of knowledge that resonates within their heart and carries it forward until all is known, and all others do the same, in the end, we shall have and know everything there is too know. we can then bring it together into total consciousness. perhaps that is why we exist.
warmest regards, corson

The One
25th May 2011, 08:20
We fool ourselves with what we call knowledge. For what really do we know. We see from one view only, from our eyes only out. We cannot see from other perspectives and we cannot think with others' minds.

We do not truly know what brought us into existence. Nor do we know about what truly happens after when our bodies perish. We know not why we must age. We know not what truly exists beyond our own life form. We know not truly what it is like to live as another life form. We know not truly what really happened as per recorded in our history books. We know not what another thinks in silence. We know not what tomorrow offers us

Henry Ford said it another way, "If you think you can or you think you can't, you are probably right."

Tony
25th May 2011, 09:16
We fool ourselves with what we call knowledge. For what really do we know. We see from one view only, from our eyes only out. We cannot see from other perspectives and we cannot think with others' minds.

We do not truly know what brought us into existence. Nor do we know about what truly happens after when our bodies perish. We know not why we must age. We know not what truly exists beyond our own life form. We know not truly what it is like to live as another life form. We know not truly what really happened as per recorded in our history books. We know not what another thinks in silence. We know not what tomorrow offers us

Henry Ford said it another way, "If you think you can or you think you can't, you are probably right."

Dear One,

When you say we, do you mean you? When you say knowledge, do you mean information? Knowledge is that which is experienced.
Doubt and being sceptical is good, but there comes a time when one has to put ones trust in something. We need confidence as a
platform for life. Otherwise, one will be in a black hole forever.

Of course one has to be prepared to change, if what is found does not satisfy, change.

Perhaps the knowledge is right with you, now!
You know! What do you think is reasoning at this moment? Knowing does not have to know some thing. There is just knowing.
Knowing = cognisance = awareness.

Trust in that you are aware, conscious.

It's only information, thoughts, getting in the way. Being aware of awareness is looking inside. Then when this awareness/knowing
looks out it will then be better able to see if the thing in front has any reality or not.

You have to decide.

It's all One anyway!

Tony

The One
25th May 2011, 09:22
Dear One,

When you say we, do you mean you? When you say knowledge, do you mean information? Knowledge is that which is experienced.
Doubt and being sceptical is good, but there comes a time when one has to put ones trust in something. We need confidence as a
platform for life. Otherwise, one will be in a black hole forever.

Of course one has to be prepared to change, if what is found does not satisfy, change.

Perhaps the knowledge is right with you, now!
You know! What do you think is reasoning at this moment? Knowing does not have to know some thing. There is just knowing.
Knowing = cognisance = awareness.

Trust in that you are aware, conscious.

It's only information, thoughts, getting in the way. Being aware of awareness is looking inside. Then when this awareness/knowing
looks out it will then be better able to see if the thing in front has any reality or not.

You have to decide





Tony

Hey pie 'n' eal in regards to the above and this is my opinion

The longer I live, the more I realize the impact of attitude on life. Attitude to me is more important than facts. It is more important then the past, than education, than money, than circumstances, than failures, than successes, than what other people think or say or do. It is more important then appearance, giftedness, or skill. The remarkable thing is, we have a choice everyday regarding the attitude we embrace for that day. We cannot change our past. We cannot change the fact that people may act in a certain way. We cannot change the inevitable. The only thing we can do is play on the one string we have, and that is our attitude. I am convinced that life is ten percent what happens to me and ninety percent how I react to it. And so it is with you. We are in charge of our attitudes.

I have already decided

Tony
25th May 2011, 09:50
Dear One,

When you say we, do you mean you? When you say knowledge, do you mean information? Knowledge is that which is experienced.
Doubt and being sceptical is good, but there comes a time when one has to put ones trust in something. We need confidence as a
platform for life. Otherwise, one will be in a black hole forever.

Of course one has to be prepared to change, if what is found does not satisfy, change.

Perhaps the knowledge is right with you, now!
You know! What do you think is reasoning at this moment? Knowing does not have to know some thing. There is just knowing.
Knowing = cognisance = awareness.

Trust in that you are aware, conscious.

It's only information, thoughts, getting in the way. Being aware of awareness is looking inside. Then when this awareness/knowing
looks out it will then be better able to see if the thing in front has any reality or not.

You have to decide





Tony

Hey pie 'n' eal in regards to the above and this is my opinion

The longer I live, the more I realize the impact of attitude on life. Attitude to me is more important than facts. It is more important then the past, than education, than money, than circumstances, than failures, than successes, than what other people think or say or do. It is more important then appearance, giftedness, or skill. The remarkable thing is, we have a choice everyday regarding the attitude we embrace for that day. We cannot change our past. We cannot change the fact that people may act in a certain way. We cannot change the inevitable. The only thing we can do is play on the one string we have, and that is our attitude. I am convinced that life is ten percent what happens to me and ninety percent how I react to it. And so it is with you. We are in charge of our attitudes.

I have already decided

Dear One,
Ah, I like that. We are in charge of our attitudes. So there are two things going on, WE and OUR ATTITUDES. The attitude is changeable, yes? But what of the WE?

Could it be that everything that happens to us is due to our attitude?
As we give out, so we get back. We see through a haze of reactions, well, over reactions.

With understanding our attitude can change, but what is this understanding?
Could this understanding be your pure knowing? You are the master, the attitudes
can change due to the situation, to bring about balance.

Attitude does not have to be fixed.

I'm beginning to like you even more, see I'm changing my attitude.

All the very best
Tony

Ilie Pandia
25th May 2011, 11:03
A man goes to knowledge as he goes to war, wide awake, with fear, with respect, and with absolute assurance.
No, I think ignorance is not bliss. Rather I think that the attitude of being "wide awake, with fear, with respect, and with absolute assurance" puts a limit on obtaining higher levels of understanding.

Getting quotes like that out of Castaneda's books can be quite misleading. I did not finish reading all of them, but I have read far enough to understand that Don Juan is a teacher that uses shock as a teaching tool to grab the attention of his student Carlos. Much of the "quotes" in the first book are contradicted and re-evaluated in later books as Carlos' understanding deepens.

What Don Juan says are not truths to be cut in stone, but rather have to be understood in their context, as necessary tools in the development of Carlos. Don Juan was dropping metaphorical hammers on his student's toes so that he will get his total attention. This become much more clear later on, when even Carlos himself becomes aware of the process.

As to the original post, perhaps there is a level of awareness where all is known? but until then I have to agree that the quest for knowledge feels like a black hole.

Tony
25th May 2011, 11:43
A man goes to knowledge as he goes to war, wide awake, with fear, with respect, and with absolute assurance.
No, I think ignorance is not bliss. Rather I think that the attitude of being "wide awake, with fear, with respect, and with absolute assurance" puts a limit on obtaining higher levels of understanding.

Getting quotes like that out of Castaneda's books can be quite misleading. I did not finish reading all of them, but I have read far enough to understand that Don Juan is a teacher that uses shock as a teaching tool to grab the attention of his student Carlos. Much of the "quotes" in the first book are contradicted and re-evaluated in later books as Carlos' understanding deepens.

What Don Juan says are not truths to be cut in stone, but rather have to be understood in their context, as necessary tools in the development of Carlos. Don Juan was dropping metaphorical hammers on his student's toes so that he will get his total attention. This become much more clear later on, when even Carlos himself becomes aware of the process.

As to the original post, perhaps there is a level of awareness where all is known? but until then I have to agree that the quest for knowledge feels like a black hole.

Do you know Ille,
I think this will drive people insane!
Part of me would like to know what beings on planet ZPLOG-101 were having for breakfast, and whether jumping timelines gives them indigestion.
But do these things really matter?

Our quest for knowledge is growing step by step, but somehow I feel it will never be satisfying.
It will always end up with another frustrating question. There is no end to creating, creations.

So what's behind it all? I reckon, you are Ille!!!

all the best

Tony

9eagle9
25th May 2011, 12:33
Because we keep re-creating problems and then more solutions and then the solution provides more problems to keep the mind busy. Recreation.

Rather than re-aligning in reality.

The answer was always out there. Quiet your mind and its re-creation/recreation. You don't need to meditate to do so. Stop thinking and dwelling on the beliefs burped up on a daily basis and the problems-solutions-problems they recreate and after a while reality will reveal itself to you if we stop playing in the mind all the time. All that stuff keeps you either in the past or in the future and you are never in the present, in the now where reality waits for re-alignment.

I often ask people would you just set down all your beliefs and the problems-solution-problems its replicating over and over like a rat on the wheel and just suspend it all for a month. Just a month. For a month just dwell on what is occurring in the present. That is after all where reality is.

People don't want to do it. I never thought it was much to ask. If nothing occurred than they can just resume their systems. But the ones who do suspend for a month or six weeks seldom ever go back to the merry go round, and the recreation for the mind it provides.

Mandala
25th May 2011, 14:33
Once I started my quest for answers, it created more questions, which needed more answers. It made me realize how much there was to learn. Once you start the journey, I'm not sure you ever reach the end.

Jonfen
25th May 2011, 15:36
A man goes to knowledge as he goes to war, wide awake, with fear, with respect, and with absolute assurance.
No, I think ignorance is not bliss. Rather I think that the attitude of being "wide awake, with fear, with respect, and with absolute assurance" puts a limit on obtaining higher levels of understanding.

Getting quotes like that out of Castaneda's books can be quite misleading.

I think the same could be said about any quote, and any guru, any word only has the applied meaning to it, in this regard this particular quote sang to me, and only then because I share in it's sentiment. It could've been a dude on the street saying it and I while I might not give it quite as much heed, I'd certainly nod my head.

Can I do one post that has quotes from multiple people (in a forum manner)? Or do you need to do one post per?

Jonfen
25th May 2011, 15:49
Because we keep re-creating problems and then more solutions and then the solution provides more problems to keep the mind busy. Recreation.

Rather than re-aligning in reality.

The answer was always out there. Quiet your mind and its re-creation/recreation. You don't need to meditate to do so. Stop thinking and dwelling on the beliefs burped up on a daily basis and the problems-solutions-problems they recreate and after a while reality will reveal itself to you if we stop playing in the mind all the time. All that stuff keeps you either in the past or in the future and you are never in the present, in the now where reality waits for re-alignment.

I often ask people would you just set down all your beliefs and the problems-solution-problems its replicating over and over like a rat on the wheel and just suspend it all for a month. Just a month. For a month just dwell on what is occurring in the present. That is after all where reality is.

People don't want to do it. I never thought it was much to ask. If nothing occurred than they can just resume their systems. But the ones who do suspend for a month or six weeks seldom ever go back to the merry go round, and the recreation for the mind it provides.

Thanks for this Eagle, I am all for living in the now, despite how easy it is to get pulled in by the past, especially trauma, and of course future plans. My question for you is this, I just bought a car, the car didn't pass emissions (no surprise I paid 500 dollars for it), I am currently unemployed, but I would like to drive again at some point, or well, in order to keep my 14 year old dog with me having a car seems easier, yada yada yada, is dealing with this problem of the now (get the car fixed) living in the present or because the goal of getting it fixed lies in a theoretical future then I am living in the future?

Same thing with food, should we only deal with food when we are hungry, or should we plan that we will probably be hungry? At some point living in the now will lead to more or less homelessness right? I think I'm okay with that, although moderately afraid. Another Carlos quote that has been ringing with me:

“It is important to do what you don't know how to do. It is important to see your skills as keeping you from learning what is deepest and most mysterious. If you know how to focus, unfocus. If your tendency is to make sense out of chaos, start chaos.”

I want to live in the now, but I also don't want to be a burden on others. Does living in the now mean dealing with your impulses as they come? What if you can't trust the impulses (i.e. I have a candida yeast infection that more or less tells me to eat sugar as much as I can, but this is having consequences on my health)?

Sorry for the jumble of questions, haha, thanks everyone for posting on my first thread, so nice to be able to create a discussion like this, I should have been forum-ing long ago!

9eagle9
25th May 2011, 15:50
There's nothing that needs to be learned really but there is much to know. Learning replaces true knowingness which is an intuitive value. Learning can squelch your intuitiveness. The whole point of the PTB makes is too keep people chasing after belief systems and other peoples opinions. They have been doing it since forever ago.

Ignorance is bliss because learning doesn't present much of a challenge and the hardships that may incur from being challenged. There's nothing much to do but have your head filled with 'things' .

Knowing is more of a challenge, than thinking or believing. It not a comfortable place like ignorant bliss, but its a safer more certain place.

Fred Steeves
25th May 2011, 16:17
We fool ourselves with what we call knowledge. For what really do we know. We see from one view only, from our eyes only out. We cannot see from other perspectives and we cannot think with others' minds.

We do not truly know what brought us into existence. Nor do we know about what truly happens after when our bodies perish. We know not why we must age. We know not what truly exists beyond our own life form. We know not truly what it is like to live as another life form. We know not truly what really happened as per recorded in our history books. We know not what another thinks in silence. We know not what tomorrow offers us

Henry Ford said it another way, "If you think you can or you think you can't, you are probably right."

Dear One,

When you say we, do you mean you? When you say knowledge, do you mean information? Knowledge is that which is experienced.
Doubt and being sceptical is good, but there comes a time when one has to put ones trust in something. We need confidence as a
platform for life. Otherwise, one will be in a black hole forever.

Of course one has to be prepared to change, if what is found does not satisfy, change.

Perhaps the knowledge is right with you, now!
You know! What do you think is reasoning at this moment? Knowing does not have to know some thing. There is just knowing.
Knowing = cognisance = awareness.

Trust in that you are aware, conscious.

It's only information, thoughts, getting in the way. Being aware of awareness is looking inside. Then when this awareness/knowing
looks out it will then be better able to see if the thing in front has any reality or not.

You have to decide.

It's all One anyway!

Tony

I agree with both of you here. There is the 5-senses street smarts David Icke talks about that is necessary for daily navigation through the deceptions in this dimension, and then there is the "knowing" we ALL can access that sees the whole thing from source to sea. I've been aquiring access to that over about the last year or so, and it is truly quite remarkable. There is certainly no thing to fear.

Cheers,
Fred

Dorok
25th May 2011, 16:20
Don't seek knowledge, seek principles. With principles, everything (new or not) can be understood at a glance. Knowledge will just confound you with 'true' contradictions!

Calz
25th May 2011, 16:25
There's nothing that needs to be learned really but there is much to know. Learning replaces true knowingness which is an intuitive value. Learning can squelch your intuitiveness. The whole point of the PTB makes is too keep people chasing after belief systems and other peoples opinions. They have been doing it since forever ago.

Ignorance is bliss because learning doesn't present much of a challenge and the hardships that may incur from being challenged. There's nothing much to do but have your head filled with 'things' .

Knowing is more of a challenge, than thinking or believing. It not a comfortable place like ignorant bliss, but its a safer more certain place.

Always pay close attention to your margarita bartender ... especially with this one :washing: :thumb:

9eagle9
25th May 2011, 16:35
Knowing is knowing. If you know something you don't have to think it or believe it or learn or do anything... you just KNOW.

Do you have to THINK about starting your car..?

step a) take keys from pocket. step b) insert key in slot....step c) Turn key over....

or do you just KNOW how to do it. YOu were shown how to do it. You were shown so many times that when the time came you just KNEW how to do it without thinking about it.

Depends on the knowledge. Is learned knowledge someone filling your head with 'things' or your knowing. Which requires no understanding you just know. Sometimes we know without knowing how we are knowing. Knowing is reflected and manifested in one's life. Thinking seldom is.

Knowing vs Thinking or Believing.

Showing vs Telling. ...

¤=[Post Update]=¤

Stilll......Sometimes I look to make sure its tequila in the margarita and not peyote...lol.






There's nothing that needs to be learned really but there is much to know. Learning replaces true knowingness which is an intuitive value. Learning can squelch your intuitiveness. The whole point of the PTB makes is too keep people chasing after belief systems and other peoples opinions. They have been doing it since forever ago.

Ignorance is bliss because learning doesn't present much of a challenge and the hardships that may incur from being challenged. There's nothing much to do but have your head filled with 'things' .

Knowing is more of a challenge, than thinking or believing. It not a comfortable place like ignorant bliss, but its a safer more certain place.

Always pay close attention to your margarita bartender ... especially with this one :washing: :thumb:

Tony
25th May 2011, 16:48
Don't seek knowledge, seek principles. With principles, everything (new or not) can be understood at a glance. Knowledge will just confound you with 'true' contradictions!

Isn't knowing a principle, knowledge?

Tony

Dorok
25th May 2011, 17:30
Don't seek knowledge, seek principles. With principles, everything (new or not) can be understood at a glance. Knowledge will just confound you with 'true' contradictions!

Isn't knowing a principle, knowledge?

Tony

Thank you for the opportunity to demonstrate!

If you knew the principle behind what I wrote, you wouldn't need to ask the question!

The difference, of course, being a principle can be integrated into your thoughts to help you produce your own coherent discernment. Knowledge is a collection of 'facts' which will naturally lead to inconsistencies. Consider an example of typical 'conservative' thinking in the USA: Abortion = bad, death penalty = good. This is the logical fallacy which comes from knowledge rather than principles. A principled approach would be 'all life is equal', and that would inform any debate.

9eagle9
25th May 2011, 17:39
Soooo....can we accept 'principles' as things we just know.

Or should know...lol.

JoeNashville
25th May 2011, 19:56
Man this is the three dollar question for me lately. Seeking and acquiring tons of knowledge about many things. The black holes of knowledge seem to get deeper and darker as well. The simple reality is the more you know and the more you understand the more of a bummer it is to see things as they really are.

Fortunately for me, I still have hope. If we make it through the rest of this year I'll have even more.

I found this recently which gives me a little solace...

He who learns must suffer
And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget
Falls drop by drop upon the heart,
And in our own despair, against our will,
Comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.
Agamemnon, Aeschylus