Debating spiritual matters.

[jimbojp]

Hello there!

I watched this video and it got me thinking.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n47meDyom9E
If I enter into a debate or start a debate on spiritual matters I've entered into battle.
If I choose to participate I should do so wholeheartedly and expect my opponent to do likewise, usually I end up with a bruised ego or an inflated one but I learn and regain my balance. If I can learn to debate like these fellas, with a smile on my face then all the better.

I think this is a good way to discuss stated truths.

Any thoughts..

Jim.

[9eagle9]

There are no spiritual debates. Spirit doesn't duke it out with another higher expression. The debates are typically on a conscious level about the validity of the constructs, religions, and theories the mind and consciousness.

If we are going to state that debate about consciousness issues is egotistical it will make those who are afraid of appearing egotisitical refrain from truth seeking. A classic PTB maneuver. People who have done their work know when they are in ego engagement and know when they are in place of higher expression.

Masters welcome debate, question everything because the master wishes for the student to learn to know for themselves and that is not possible unless one questions. Some people don't like to be questioned. If you look very closely at some of the debates in they aren't at all. They are composed one person stating something and the other saying they are wrong without stating WHY or even giving any plausible evidence circumstantial or not. Not much in the way of questioning the other's statement but simply blaring out they are wrong without ever backing up why that person may be wrong.

When a person's belief system is challenged things grow argumentative. Challenging belief systems, system busting is what we are here for. If you are not emotionally invested in a belief system your ego won't be bruised.

[ulli]

@9eagle9
Shoot, I wish I could challenge you more on what you stated there! ;(
You are just one of those balancers, helping the timid become feisty, and the feisty timid.
Like one of my Avalon friends quoted:
Where two agree, one is obsolete.

[Tony]

Debating spirituality is wonderful.
It shaves away concept after concept.

Till no thing is left.

Just reality!

yours with a great big smile on his face,
Tony

[Tony]

If two philosophers agree, they are not philosophers.
If two Siddhis agree, they are Siddhis.

Tony

[jimbojp]

If we are going to state that debate about consciousness issues is egotistical it will make those who are afraid of appearing egotisitical refrain from truth seeking. A classic PTB maneuver. People who have done their work know when they are in ego engagement and know when they are in place of higher expression.
.

Thanks 9eagle9,

Everything you say makes sense to me apart from the above.

Ultimately spiritual debate should not involve ego, but I have an ego. If I enter a debate pretending to have no ego, then my opponent (tptb) will expose that, very quickly. So yes spiritual debate could be egotistical.

What do you think.

[jimbojp]

If two philosophers agree, they are not philosophers.
If two Siddhis agree, they are Siddhis.

Tony

Tony,

Are you saying that spiritual debate is just philosophical debate.

If two siddhis meet do they have anything to debate, apart from who's turn it is to make the tea.

Jim.

[ulli]

I like ego. I honor it in others. Ego is their psychic defense system. I honor people's right to defend themselves.

I'm with you 100 %, 9eagle9.

Take five, slap....

[Tony]

If two philosophers agree, they are not philosophers.
If two Siddhis agree, they are Siddhis.

Tony

Tony,

Are you saying that spiritual debate is just philosophical debate.

If two siddhis meet do they have anything to debate, apart from who's turn it is to make the tea.

Jim.

Exactly!.......... Tea?


It's good to debate on a subject, it's clarifies and simplifies ones understanding.
It also bashes to ego about. It's a bit like spiritual ju-jitsu. Do not take a firm stance,
no fixed ideas, no quarter to defend. Just parring away till it satisfies.

There are no winners, and no losers. Just spiritual friends.
If someone takes firm stance, has fixed ideas, defends their quarter they end up a philosopher.
If you just smile, you are a siddhi. As no thing bothers you. But that doesn't mean you do not care.

A philosopher debates to prove self.
A siddhi debates for the benefit of other.

Personally I wouldn't trust a word I say.
Trust in your own experience.

Tony

[9eagle9]

The key word is 'afraid' here, not ego persay.

People are afraid of being called egotistical because they have assumed this 'role' of being without ego or holy or saintly because they are afraid of the word ego.

We are all holy bottom line, regardless if of ego-light or ego-dense. Just some people can't acknowledge their true sacredness so assume a role of it, instead of authenticity.

Or they have that role imposed on them--"You're bad if you have an ego." So people assume a role of not having an ego or are just afraid to speak up so no one can accuse them of having an ego. Which is dumb rather like accusing someone of arsehole because we all now what arseholes are like. They are like the ego. Everyone has one, some people have softer or less dense egos than others...that's all.

All opinions are Ego therefore egotistical in the truest sense of the word. Even if someone 'without' ego says timidly, I agree or don't agree they are still expressing ego...lol.

Higher expression usually states what it has to say and leaves again because the truth doesn't need to be debated and doesn't feel the to make agreements or disagreements.

And we all have an ego , so it boils down to being afraid of our selves. Speaking up because one is afraid of other's perceptions. People think its a clever weapon a form of judgement and chastisement to state 'You're coming from an ego place'. And people don't like to hear it. Like someone is completly invalidated because they came from an ego, which means we are all collectively invalidated. lol...

Put it this way I have an ego, I've done a lot of work on it, attempting to master it, have mastered it where its affected certain areas of my life, in other areas its still a pest, but I'm the first to admit I havent' eradicated it. But I'm not afraid of it either, neither am I afraid of people tell me I'm coming from an ego place. They are either correct or...they haven't the wherewithall to tell the difference because of their own ego density.






If we are going to state that debate about consciousness issues is egotistical it will make those who are afraid of appearing egotisitical refrain from truth seeking. A classic PTB maneuver. People who have done their work know when they are in ego engagement and know when they are in place of higher expression.
.

Thanks 9eagle9,

Everything you say makes sense to me apart from the above.

Ultimately spiritual debate should not involve ego, but I have an ego. If I enter a debate pretending to have no ego, then my opponent (tptb) will expose that, very quickly. So yes spiritual debate could be egotistical.

What do you think.

[Unified Serenity]

I like the adage that "As iron sharpens iron, so a friend sharpens a friend." The issue is attitude and how the message is delivered. I used to debate spiritual topics often. I no longer do so for most people I encounter do not really wish to learn from one another but argue. I do not argue anymore. I choose the fields in which I plant seeds, and I do not sow in bad soil.

[Ecnal61]

i like your philosophy unified serenity,but in choosing to not argue and therefore debate the issue, maybe people who we may have touched and helped onto a different path will carry on blindly.a lot if not all avalonians,myself included meet with ridicule all the time from people outside of this forum and like you i often think i should not bother speaking to those people anymore. what is the answer, should we persist? i think so.

[ulli]

Hello there!

I watched this video and it got me thinking.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n47meDyom9E
If I enter into a debate or start a debate on spiritual matters I've entered into battle.
If I choose to participate I should do so wholeheartedly and expect my opponent to do likewise, usually I end up with a bruised ego or an inflated one but I learn and regain my balance. If I can learn to debate like these fellas, with a smile on my face then all the better.

I think this is a good way to discuss stated truths.

Any thoughts..

Jim.

The balance is off...no women, no balance.

[MariaDine]

Hello there!

I watched this video and it got me thinking.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n47meDyom9E
If I enter into a debate or start a debate on spiritual matters I've entered into battle.
If I choose to participate I should do so wholeheartedly and expect my opponent to do likewise, usually I end up with a bruised ego or an inflated one but I learn and regain my balance. If I can learn to debate like these fellas, with a smile on my face then all the better.

I think this is a good way to discuss stated truths.

Any thoughts..

Jim.


Tibetan monks study the teology , scinece etc. . They have recently open up the study of western philosophy, literature etc. The language barrier is a problem , in the sense that the learning of english and other languages by the monks is also, very recent in the tibetan universities ,that exist in India.

I know all this because I'm in touch with one tibetan monk from the entourage of the Dalai Lama.

Namasté

Ps-

¤=[Post Update]=¤



Hello there!

I watched this video and it got me thinking.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n47meDyom9E
If I enter into a debate or start a debate on spiritual matters I've entered into battle.
If I choose to participate I should do so wholeheartedly and expect my opponent to do likewise, usually I end up with a bruised ego or an inflated one but I learn and regain my balance. If I can learn to debate like these fellas, with a smile on my face then all the better.

I think this is a good way to discuss stated truths.

Any thoughts..

Jim.

The balance is off...no women, no balance.

There are tibetan women monks as you know....

[jimbojp]

Hello there!

I watched this video and it got me thinking.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n47meDyom9E
If I enter into a debate or start a debate on spiritual matters I've entered into battle.
If I choose to participate I should do so wholeheartedly and expect my opponent to do likewise, usually I end up with a bruised ego or an inflated one but I learn and regain my balance. If I can learn to debate like these fellas, with a smile on my face then all the better.

I think this is a good way to discuss stated truths.

Any thoughts..

Jim.

The balance is off...no women, no balance.

Thanks Uli,

I think you,ve restored balance by entering the debate, I can't argue with that,

All the best,
Jim.

[Unified Serenity]

i like your philosophy unified serenity,but in choosing to not argue and therefore debate the issue, maybe people who we may have touched and helped onto a different path will carry on blindly.a lot if not all avalonians,myself included meet with ridicule all the time from people outside of this forum and like you i often think i should not bother speaking to those people anymore. what is the answer, should we persist? i think so.

Hi Ecnal,

Oh, don't get me wrong about debating. I will enter into discussions, but I can tell fairly quickly if it's just an argument or truly sharing of minds and hearts. I find the attitude to agree to disagree and disengage has much more merit in the end than continuing with a negative and often ridiculing spirit. I keep away from a judging attitude, and simply try to end the conversation and send a loving energy their way. It often befuddles them when one responds as a reed rather than a stone wall.

[Omni]

There are no spiritual debates. Spirit doesn't duke it out with another higher expression.

We can debate the spiritual. And we can have spiritual experiences while having a debate. I'm not sure the spirit is doing any debating though.

[ulli]

There are no spiritual debates. Spirit doesn't duke it out with another higher expression.

We can debate the spiritual. And we can have spiritual experiences while having a debate. I'm not sure the spirit is doing any debating though.

the spiritual experience happens at the point when clashing opinions suddenly find the mid point,
and each yields enough ground to arrive at a center.
Then both can get that glimmer of truth...
which is the new birth of new discovery.

[MariaDine]

Ah ! Yes very deep conclusions... :)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFBOQzSk14c

[Unified Serenity]

Cracks me up. Along with this one that illustrates just how much we think we hear that we don't hear or something like that:

-xLUEMj6cwA

[RedeZra]

we are all under the spell of Ignorance

else we would not be


so nobody has an ego

but everybody is selfish


only God is selfless ; )

[Tony]

Spiritual debate is for the benefit of the other debater.

The ego is awareness without pure essence.
Meaning emptiness.
When awareness and emptiness are a unity,
then there is unlimited compassionate energy.

There is no such thing as ego.
There is no such thing as self.
There is no opponent.

Tony

[greybeard]

Perhaps debate is not the right word.

Discuss and share then ego is not relevant.

Ramesh Balsekar quote.

"God gave you an ego, let Him remove it"

C

[jimbojp]

Spiritual debate is for the benefit of the other debater.

The ego is awareness without pure essence.
Meaning emptiness.
When awareness and emptiness are a unity,
then there is unlimited compassionate energy.

There is no such thing as ego.
There is no such thing as self.
There is no opponent.

Tony

So all this talk is useless eh?

Think I'll go out for a walk then, nice moon tonight...

All the best
Jim.

[Maia Gabrial]

What does Ego know about spirituality?

[9eagle9]

What does Ego know about spirituality?

It doesn't . The challenge is getting people to the place where they know their ego is not spirit. Or spirituality.

[greybeard]

Spiritual debate is for the benefit of the other debater.

The ego is awareness without pure essence.
Meaning emptiness.
When awareness and emptiness are a unity,
then there is unlimited compassionate energy.

There is no such thing as ego.
There is no such thing as self.
There is no opponent.

Tony

So all this talk is useless eh?

Think I'll go out for a walk then, nice moon tonight...

All the best
Jim.

Its a question of timing Jim.
When you have done enough, read enough to know that it is time to let go, then the debate is no longer necessary.
Think of it this way--- When you are learning to drive you are very aware of everything you do, progressively it becomes habit.
You decide on the direction and all happens.
You decide to trust/seek God and after a while seeking is redundant, all that you "need" just comes into your life, no longer is there doing, things just happen, there is peace.
This is my personal experience.
Hope this helps

Chris


OOPS
I said DIVE instead of DRIVE.
I think more care is perhaps required with diving as you really are in a different environment--- sorry

Chris

[MariaDine]

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_LnJTYVx2330/S8el6z0aloI/AAAAAAAACRQ/1JnBEtE2z1E/s1600/snoopy.gif

[Unified Serenity]

Spiritual debate is for the benefit of the other debater.

The ego is awareness without pure essence.
Meaning emptiness.
When awareness and emptiness are a unity,
then there is unlimited compassionate energy.

There is no such thing as ego.
There is no such thing as self.
There is no opponent.

Tony

So all this talk is useless eh?

Think I'll go out for a walk then, nice moon tonight...

All the best
Jim.

Its a question of timing Jim.
When you have done enough, read enough to know that it is time to let go, then the debate is no longer necessary.
Think of it this way--- When you are learning to dive you are very aware of everything you do, progressively it becomes habit.
You decide on the direction and all happens.
You decide to trust/seek God and after a while seeking is redundant, all that you "need" just comes into your life, no longer is there doing, things just happen, there is peace.
This is my personal experience.
Hope this helps

Chris

I also check my tanks, BC, dive charts and plan my dive..... just sayin ;)

[Anchor]

There are no spiritual debates. Spirit doesn't duke it out with another higher expression. The debates are typically on a conscious level about the validity of the constructs, religions, and theories the mind and consciousness.

If we are going to state that debate about consciousness issues is egotistical it will make those who are afraid of appearing egotisitical refrain from truth seeking. A classic PTB maneuver. People who have done their work know when they are in ego engagement and know when they are in place of higher expression.

Masters welcome debate, question everything because the master wishes for the student to learn to know for themselves and that is not possible unless one questions. Some people don't like to be questioned. If you look very closely at some of the debates in they aren't at all. They are composed one person stating something and the other saying they are wrong without stating WHY or even giving any plausible evidence circumstantial or not. Not much in the way of questioning the other's statement but simply blaring out they are wrong without ever backing up why that person may be wrong.

When a person's belief system is challenged things grow argumentative. Challenging belief systems, system busting is what we are here for. If you are not emotionally invested in a belief system your ego won't be bruised.

Great post.

I wonder if that can be distilled down and incorporated into the forum guidelines :)

John..