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Tarka the Duck

16th July 2011, 12:48

I have been becomingly increasingly worried about the "Calibrations" thread, and feel concerned about the effect these "readings" may be having on some people who have asked for them? Of course, we all make choices, and no one forced those people who asked for calibration readings, but to abdicate any responsibility could be perceived as being a little callous.

In my opinion, it would be naive to think that such information will have no effect whatsoever on the individual (if no one is truthfully feeling any after effects, then I apologise for speaking out of line...must all be my projection!). If that were truly the case, then there would be no point to the whole exercise.

Applied Kinesiology as advocated by Dr David Hawkins (as opposed to Kinesiology) is a disputed, controversial science at the best of times (yes, I know lots of people are going to disagree with this!), and the idea of it being carried out at a distance, by someone you know nothing about and who knows nothing about you, is, to my (possibly limited) way of thinking, is unproductive and frankly, just ridiculous.

To interpret our multiple-dimensional inner environment in such a one dimensional form as Dr Hawkins Map of Consciousness seems to be pointless. I am concerned that the results will be counterproductive to the development of a healthy, happy and well-rounded human being - and will in fact have the opposite effect by possibly promoting judgements, a feeling of righteousness, superiority/inferiority and division. It could well actually end up being an obstacle to spiritual growth.

I feel that one of the most important aspects of the spiritual journey is the need to determine our OWN meaning and context, rather than looking to an external authority to evaluate our reality.

From the little I understand of Dr Hawkins work, it seems he has no place for relativism...isn't this what the spiritual life is about? On his own Map of Consciousness, he allocates Absolutism as 650 and relativism as 250. Isn't absolutism all about rigidity? Control? Intolerance?

And talking of his Map, here are some of the calibrations he apparently made originally which make interesting reading...
211 – Coca Cola
220 – Motels
375 – Time Magazine
390 – Santa Claus / Father Xmas
460 - George Bush
505 – Barry Manilow
520 – Patriotism
745 – St Paul

He has also stated that women are unable to handle very high spiritual frequencies due to a difference in their nervous system. That's me sorted then...

Another strange thing is that it appears everyone on Avalon is particularly gifted. Apparently, only 20% of the world's population will calibrate at over 200. Somehow, George Bush got 460 (Dr David Hawkins is unashamedly right wing, I believe). 700 is the stage of enlightenment, or so I have read.
My oh my, aren't Avalonians doing well, with their current average of 552?! If you are below that, don't worry...no, really, don't worry!

Anyway, I just wanted to offer this - albeit contrary – viewpoint. I know there are a lot of fans of David Hawkins, and I do not wish to upset them: on a forum dedicated to the pursuit of truth, it is sometimes necessary to take a deep breath and offer an opposing, balancing argument. This not meant to be negative: the pursuit of truth requires openness, enquiry and a spirit of investigation.

As I said, if no one is having a problem, and it is genuinely just a bit of fun, and people are happy to deal with their own reactions to their score, then everything is fine. I felt moved to offer this for those who may be feeling a little disturbed by all this, and believe that my motivation is genuine.

I respect the fact that many will disagree with me, which, in a relative world, is wonderful!

PS Below, I have put some links to critical reviews of Hawkins' work, if anyone is interested – plus I have cut and pasted a little taster of the sort of thing you will read there.

PPS I did contact Eternal One about my concerns before posting this thread, but haven't as yet received a reply.

Another point that has to be made is that the level of truth of something is different for us at different times. If we suppress a lot of anger, then anger for us is not necessarily a low vibration, but a doorway that, when expressed harmlessly, will lead us to greater integration and wholeness. As Jung once stated, "I would rather be a whole person than a good person." Hawkins, on the other hand, would probably rather be a good person (good = a high vibratory rate) than a whole person (containing all vibrations). He has forgotten the power of perspective and context, and in his drive to set up an objective calibration of truth he closes the door to true soul work....

....Hawkins wants to unite humankind in an absolute framework of truth. He wants to convince the world that HIS truth is THE objective truth, and he does this by presenting simple muscle-testing as the arbiter of all things. This makes him, by deﬁnition, a fundamentalist, and one that is driven by that same fundamentalist drive to convince all people of his reality — a one dimensional calibration of truth from 1 to 1000. (The calibration of God and the Angels goes much higher than this in his cosmology, but 1000 is the highest vibrational rate for this world.)
Fundamentalists often do have more energy or zeal than relativists because they are so driven to justify their reality above all others'. Hawkins confuses this fundamentalist zeal with "high spiritual energy", and uses it to further justify the "positive" impact of his work on the world. It is standard mid-West "bible thumping" — the call of the proselytizer. He mixes his calibration theory with standard motivational psychology (using the vernacular borrowed from chaos theory — the attractor) to ﬂesh out a whole psychological system — after all, pure calibration and the diagnosis of all things would never quite be enough to hold its weight in a society obsessed by self-help books and workshops.....

....Hawkins makes a revealing statement in the Kindred Spirit article when he describes individuals of low consciousness saying, "People at this level love to be right and make everyone else wrong." But that is exactly what he is doing with his calibration. For someone to be right and another wrong, truth has to be absolute, not relative. Once again, that is the position of the religious fundamentalist — truth is always on his or her side. And from this perspective, because we know THE truth, we are no longer interested in ﬁnding the truths of others so we can build a bridge with them. We are sure of our position and the position of others because we hold the absolute rule by which all things are measured. ...
...There are so many inconsistencies in Hawkins' work, words and conclusions that I am very surprised so few have brought them up (a couple are mentioned in the addendum to this article). Hawkins is no mystic, master or seer, but a spiritual fundamentalist, in every sense of the word, who has hijacked the therapeutic process of muscle testing as a means to justify his rigid beliefs. And his disguised fundamentalism seems to be evoking little resistance from the spiritual and New Age communities that now seem largely to champion him.....
...What happened to the wisdom of relativism? It should be fairly obvious for those who have looked below the surface of things that the future peace, integrity and spiritual evolution of humanity does not lie in fundamentalist positions but in relativism, for when we realize that there are no absolute scales and measures of things (such as Hawkins' contrived calibration system), we have no alternative but to listen to and respect each others' truth.
And we no longer need to defend our own truth by trying to convince another because we understand that truth is relative. In this way we learn to open our hearts to others because we are not being blinded by certainty or ideology. (Nobody can be as short-sighted or as cruel as the fundamentalist, because he or she always puts ideology before people.) ....
........Hawkins' view of reality is not only dependent upon several unjustiﬁed assumptions, even from a pragmatic point of view, it actually offers us very little, deluding us into thinking that an individual's level of truth and integrity is objectively measured, and has little to do with our interaction with that person. We all know that how we treat a person often determines their behaviour, so that even from a pragmatic point of view it is better not to calibrate — for calibration unequivocally leads to judgment. (An absolute calibration of truth, after all, is a judgment of truth by deﬁnition.)......
......And that is the irony of Hawkins' Power vs Force: if you subscribe to his calibrated world then you give away your power to deﬁne your own reality and to determine your own meanings in life — a prerequisite on our journey to wholeness and integration. You end up polarizing experience into high and low calibrations, forgetting that both the light and the dark are needed for true integration and individuation. Nobody else can do this for us; nobody else can supply us with the symbols and meaning that we need, whether it is with their intuition, a pendulum or a muscle test. We have to have the courage to walk our own path.
Fundamentalists like Hawkins actually scupper our spiritual growth and our journey to wholeness because we allow them to take away our opportunity to learn that we create our own realities and that we assign all meaning to that reality. Instead, the gold of subjectivity is swapped for the base-metal of pseudo-objectivity, and in the process we unwittingly become accomplices in perpetrating fundamentalist delusions.
So we have a choice. We either take full responsibility for the reality we create, our relationship to that reality, and our interpretation of that reality… or we pussyfoot around in someone else's objective delusion. Only the ﬁrst leads to true wisdom and wholeness. And only the ﬁrst gives us the opportunity to reach spiritual maturity.

http://www.energygrid.com/spirit/2007/09ap-davidhawkins.html
http://pathstoknowledge.com/1022/a-critique-of-david-r-hawkins-and-kinesiology/
http://www.spiritualteachers.org/david_hawkins.htm
http://www.energygrid.com/spirit/2005/02ap-dowsinggod.html.

DNA

16th July 2011, 13:18

Excellent excellent stuff Tarka.
I wanted to raise a critical eye to this as well, but, I just couldn't stomach doing the research first.
Thank you so much.
I hope folks will read what you have written and pause for a moment before bestowing powers on some one else in the vein of supporting lofty claims.
Lofty Claims mean nothing,,,,NOTHING.
If one cannot substantiate what they are talking about through comparison, metaphor and analogy.

truthseekerdan

16th July 2011, 13:24

Calibrating "egos" (illusions) wont get you far... Thank you Tarka for your due diligence.

Much Love and wisdom ~ Dan

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?860-Enlightenment-The-Ego-what-is-it-How-to-transcend-it.&p=263356#post263356

pickle

16th July 2011, 13:30

Truthfully, and respectfully Tarka, I'd like to offer my two pennies...

In my opinion, it would be naive to think that such information will have no effect whatsoever on the individual (if no one is truthfully feeling any after effects, then I apologise for speaking out of line...must all be my projection!). If that were truly the case, then there would be no point to the whole exercise.
...I feel and think no different whatsoever since I had the callibration. I also think and feel nothing about David Hawkins - I mean about whether he is right or wrong.

This information, and the sources of them (in my opinion only!) are part of everything around us, we can take it in and do whatever we like with it, and I honestly doubt that many here would have their life affected by the callibrations in any way whatsoever.

Also, I'm particularly enjoyng how the thread has come alive with others thoughts and reactions (maybe you could have placed your thoughts in there too?), with great ideas, food for thought and general good spirits.

Personally, I think the juiciest bit about all of this is the intention of someone to offer knowledge and information with good intent - at least for me, this is what makes this place great, and Eternal One and Ullis' (astronomy thread) generous time and offerings are all I need to know that great, good intent is the only thing that matters.

.....Of course, we all make choices, and no one forced those people who asked for calibration readings, but to abdicate any responsibility could be perceived as being a little callous....
Well, this is a website known for it's off-the-beaten-track content, so I see no reason why free minded people need to make a disclaimer - after all, there are countless opinions here, is it right that anyone offering opinion on MMS, New Age, Astronomy, Metaphysics etc etc should make a disclaimer too?

Inference that Eternal One could be perceived as being callous is, in my opinion, and in the light of the content and nature of this forum, a little unnecessary.

I hope I've not offended you Tarka, just my take on this.

Best wishes and peace to you,

Pickle

Lisab

16th July 2011, 13:31

Thanks for this Tarka. I too had misgivings about this thread altho I know some people will (hopefully) look at it as bit of fun. But you have, as stated, brought a well balanced opposing view to the table.
As for suppression of emotions such as anger sometimes one just has to feed the demons so I do if the conditions arise. Thankyou . Love n laughs Lisa x

Tarka the Duck

16th July 2011, 13:40

Hello Pickle -sorry, my mistake for not being clear. I wasn't accusing Eternal One of callousness at all - I was referring to my initial reluctance in writing the post...I felt I had a responsibility to voice my concerns on their behalf. Hope that makes sense.
Best wishes
Tarka

pickle

16th July 2011, 13:52

Tony

16th July 2011, 18:54

All that glitters is not gold.

truthseekerdan

16th July 2011, 20:17

All that glitters is not gold.

Indeed Tony, you got that 'right'. Our mind can be a great deceiver; by waving its magic wand of logic it can even make a lie appear true. Our mind can provide all the right excuses for doing or not doing something. Our mind has many strange characteristics and many astonishing tendencies. It has the tendency to believe what it wants to believe, even in the face of any proof to the contrary. In other cases, our mind believes what it wants to believe, whether it has all the facts or no facts at all. Our mind loves to solve problems by filling in the gaps with the stuff we already know rather than admitting it may know nothing at all.

All we need is Love and Unity ~ Dan

Eva2

16th July 2011, 21:36

Thank you Tarka for an intuitive and well-composed voice of reason. I was one of the lower scorers, perhaps the lowest, on External One's thread. I have been muscle tested a number of times with varying results - I've received several different times of birth and have tested positive for foods I've later discovered I have an intolerance for, so, despite a squirmy gut reaction and feelings of wariness about this idea, fondness for games, curiousity and nosiness got the best of me and I requested a reading. My initial approach to all this was its a bit of a crap shoot and I intended to view it as such. What did surprise me is my reaction to the results I received. I requested this reading in the spirit of light amusement but found I was actually questioning the ideas, feelings and experiences I have received which do not corroborate this number. Fortunately, this was a short-lived experience and I feel confident again with my divinity and what I Know to be true for myself.

Firstly I want to make clear that I believe Eternal One began his thread with all good intentions. However, from my perception I see scoresheets, groupings and ratings for individuals. I feel some of the comments of those that are supposedly (today, tomorrow???) "calibrating" at high levels smack a little of a well-intentioned but certain smuggness, perhaps even pomposity, maybe a bit harsh but that's how I'm seeing it. I have no doubt I have issues that I need to deal with but I can't give too much credence to a chart that establishes one's spiritual development based on where they stand on a sliding scale of numbers with revered gurus at the top and mass murderers at the bottom. I really don't think this is a good method of understanding where one stands in their connection to the godhead. Perhaps today I'm having a good, god-loving moment and I shoot up the scale to hang out with Jesus and Mohammed for the day but tomorrow someone steals my purse, I fight with the neighbours and am feeling melancholy with the rainy, drab weather, so I plummet and whaddya know I'm kicking back with Al and Jack. This, for me, is not a credible or relevant indicator for how advanced (or old!!!) one is on their 'spiritual path' and I find comments to the effect that 'doing it by public creates a bigger commitment to improve oneself' - sounds a bit of a guru attitude - coming from the "higher echalons" of the spiritual community (with the "winning" scores) - doesn't feel right to me. Unless I experience differently at some point, I will always maintain that, without exception, everyone on this planet is a master and their own guru - so, "advancement" is always dependent on looking within to find your answers.

I wasn't sure if I would put my feelings on all this out there until Taka started this thread presenting her very incisive pov. I'm writing this for myself and maybe others that "ranked" lower as well (I could be the only one - I dunno). Maybe I'm "calibrating" even lower after writing this screed but hey I heard we're getting more sunshine next week so will keep my fingers crossed that this will change! I guess, for me, the biggest lesson in all this is never to let someone else's "opinion" interfere with one's own progress. Only we truly know where we stand on the "scale" and the how, where, when, and what of our personal experience with Source can only be determined by ourself and not by another or outside factors.

Saying all this, I wish to reiterate that it was fully my choice to participate in "my" reading and I thank External One for his thread and I know his intentions came from a very good place. And, I actually thank him for the impact my reading had on me - there was certainly a lesson for me in this as I have stated above. And so I'm done and that's a wrap!

truthseekerdan

16th July 2011, 21:56

Belle

16th July 2011, 22:10

I was one of those who asked for a calibration from Eternal_One...and learned more from the inner process that took place while deciding whether to ask or not, and whether it be by pm or by post than from the actual result itself.

I use this forum to learn and grow, and share what I think may help others on their journey. By observing my reactions to the differing threads and posts, I learn more about myself, strengths and weaknesses than I could in almost any other way.

I hold no firm opinions about David Hawkins, or calibration, or astrology or most anything on this forum. I tend not to judge, learning through my life that what may appear totally positive today may seem totally negative tomorrow...it's all in how you approach/use the information, imho.

Anyway, I had a bit of fun, got to work on some inner issues, and learned something along the way.

DNA

17th July 2011, 04:22

The bottom line for me is this, you're turning spirituality into a competition. Hilarious:pound:

Moonwish

17th July 2011, 04:56

Enough to gag a maggot, I expect.
Calibration is another form of patriarchy, perhaps. . .

modwiz

17th July 2011, 04:57

I feel just as superior after my reading as before it. :humble::horn::thumb::biggrin1::banplease:

modwiz

17th July 2011, 05:08

Enough to gag a maggot, I expect.
Calibration is another form of patriarchy, perhaps. . .

Clearly a Communist plot.

Carmen

17th July 2011, 05:17

This is soo funny!!! My ego has been strutting around like the topcat that got the cream. Probably dropped down a coupla hundred points in calibration just on my ego reaction. Makes me giggle. Wouldnt even look at this thread till now cos it might have spoiled my fun. Ego's are such ****ty things but once you are on to them the game is up, eventually!!

And like Belle, it was a big deal asking in public, to see in public what the number would be cos the ego is always scared of failure!! Big learning. Always learning about self and SELF

modwiz

17th July 2011, 05:26

I applaud all who asked publicly. No matter the number, asking for it was not for the faint of heart and it also showed triumph over the ego. Whether you puffed up, deflated, stayed the same or were deeply ambivalent; asking in public was a win for the spiritual side.

EileenCookies

17th July 2011, 06:59

I did mention to Eternal one my personal feelings already. But is it him, really? People happily shoved aside my post and ask for callibrations. Didn't want to miss their fix (ego fix) I suppose.

It was like trying to stop children from eating candy while in a candy store. I am afraid the 'dentist' information had no effect.

And the information has been out for some time and I played with it a bit myself. The public part doesn't mean anything to me. If I had my way, I have everyone be open, all the time. That would really bust up our egos! The only interest I have is pointing out deluded thinking (or in this case a combination of factors making the results inconsistent, inconclusive and not right ...)

Catsquotl

17th July 2011, 07:24

hmm I just saw the callibration thread this morning. I asked and got...
But before that i sort of muscle tested myself about this. Not knowing or heard of hawkins before...
According to my muscles we should boost the numbers to well above 3000 in order to reflect the spiritual side of things. anyway i tested to be sort of above the middle and low and behold I recieved 668 on the thread.
Just an ego conformation i am trodding the right path.

That said, Having fallen victim to cults before I guess/believe even the ones who score low or get high on an especially high number have the same work to do than all of us.
Experience life. Try to do the best you can and have a laugh every once and a while.

With Love
Eelco

Catsquotl

17th July 2011, 07:30

Hmmm just as an observation..
My ego is more affected by the idea and anxiety to any response on this thread than any number calibrated...

With Love
Eelco

EileenCookies

17th July 2011, 07:45

Consciousness isn't a number

Catsquotl

17th July 2011, 07:56

Very true...

That said as consciousness is beyond words..
We may as wel give it a number in order to express it.
or 78 drawings and call it Tarot
or 64 hexagrams and call it I ching
or give conscious aspects to 12 zodiac signs.....

Does it really matter?
With Love
Eelco

EileenCookies

17th July 2011, 08:05

It is funny, the harder people try to be seen as 'conscious' or a 'higher vibration' (that is a LOL), without actually changing their ways, or actually devoting themselves to consciousness, the further away they push themselves from it.

greybeard

17th July 2011, 08:32

Time for guru's and so called masters is over. It's time to take responsibility and 'grow up'. :nod:
"In this interview with "Little Grandmother" in Glastonbury we talk about the basic principles behind 'stepping into your power'. Power in this sense has nothing to do with power OVER any other person or thing -- when you are 'in your power' you feel confident, happy and you have a sense of purpose!"

zePxWpeP9nE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zePxWpeP9nE

Unfortunately it would seem some native Red Indians are on the war path regarding Little Grand Mother

http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/littlegrandmother/

When you become famous you become subject to suspicion and knocking, no matter your intention, or how much good you may have done or be doing.
Hawkins record speaks for it self.

The Self of the Master is the same Self as the spiritual aspirant.

The Master knows this and even though they could leave this world
remain to serve the ignorant (lacking knowledge of Truth) self.

The traditional teachings tended to have a linage as do the Red Indians

Hawkins says that a teacher may be respected but only God is to be devoted to.
Devotion is the corner stone of traditional spiritual teaching.
The God within the Guru was worshiped not the Guru--- there is a subtle but major difference,

The God with in the Guru, Sage, Master is the same God that is within all.

The energy of the God within is at various degrees,
The Energy of God is not measurable as it is infinite.

An Ark angel measures at 40thousand.

The most a human can measure at present in this world is 1000, that is changing.
More than a 1000 would fry the human body which can only take so much spiritual power.

So the map of consciouses / calibration is only a guide to where the seeming individual is at the moment and shows the next step out of illusion so to speak.

While we are in illusion/Maya it is helpful to have a guide/master/ teacher/map.

Respect brings humility, both are forms of love. (God does not require either)

If you are not respecting what the masters/enlightened teachers have done for the human race for many thousands of years then it is difficult to see how one can express love because in loving them you are loving yourself unconditionally.

For myself I am not bothered what Dr Hawkins is.
The teaching in the later books is superb --- the best I have read.
The books will remain after Dr Hawkins has left this world.

http://www.veritaspub.com/index.php?page=about

In order to form a valid opinion it is best to investigate both sides of the story---- I have. (not saying I am right)
The link provides Hawkins achievements and awards, not that that matters but it balances off the usual Internet negativity from people who have done very little to
help the human race.
Little Grandmother is now falling foul of that negativity too.

Chris

EileenCookies

17th July 2011, 08:51

A good test, for any material, is how well it functions. Is it helping people or is all illusion? If, as in this case, it is partially insightful, then I say, read all of the material, get what you can from it and then move along. That isn't the same thing as going around and muscle testing people and then telling them that is who they are (in-directly).

I am not clear what Native Tribal ways have to do with this thread.
I don't know what is going to happen. I don't take sides on Native issues.
I have been at least partially trained in a few of their ways (before the tribe found out I was receiving training and asked that
it stopped...they had their reasons).

Each person, in the end, must make their own evaluation.

stdante

17th July 2011, 09:05

asking for an evaluation (calibration) and being happy with the result (or unhappy)

I'm wandering what is the meaning of that ? ;)

we are so.... human :wave:

Tarka the Duck

17th July 2011, 09:18

asking for an evaluation (calibration) and being happy with the result (or unhappy)

I'm wandering what is the meaning of that ? ;)

we are so.... human :wave:

I love that last line! I get the feeling that we are all sometimes tempted to deny our "human-ness" (that should be "humanity" but it is Sunday morning and I am in the mood to make up words), in an attempt to show that we are well along the road of enlightenment...

It would be so refreshing if someone just came out and admitted to being pretty pissed off at their "calibration" reading ;) (or, alternatively, pretty smug :o) ! I'm sure we would get closer as a community if there was a little more honesty out there...thanks to Jill and Carmen with regard to that, by the way.

By the way, I love your avatar!

Tarka

Mad Hatter

17th July 2011, 12:33

Thanks Tarka...

I didn't wish to derail that particular thread because of the intent with which it was started but had similar misgivings. Being the devious bugger that I am I phrased my request in a manner in which I could test the veracity of the claim and the result came back with something that just did not ring true for me. I hadn't got round to reading Dawkins work yet but for the reasons stated in my reply to the result(s) given I certainly will not stress about getting to it soon. ;)

My gauge for a spiritually enlightened being is measured by what they have actually done for mankind as a whole during that particular incarnation and not anything they might have said or any musings written about them , thus whilst living in this space in the eternal now, for me purely based on bang for buck a Tesla will trump a Jesus or a Budha every time.

Had my personal score been around 150 I might have had a different veiwpoint... still like the Jung thread it was fun at the time!!

cheers

truthseekerdan

17th July 2011, 13:16

Hawkins says that a teacher may be respected but only God is to be devoted to.
Devotion is the corner stone of traditional spiritual teaching.
The God within the Guru was worshiped not the Guru--- there is a subtle but major difference,...

An Ark angel measures at 40thousand.

The most a human can measure at present in this world is 1000, that is changing.
More than a 1000 would fry the human body which can only take so much spiritual power.

Our mind is the source of all fear and anxiety. Everyone experiences fear and anxiety mainly through a lack of knowledge. Whenever the light of reason enters the mind, the darkness of ignorance fades. What each of us believes to be true is true for us alone. At the beginning of freedom, everything that is false is separated from everything that is true. There is no life for anyone in fear. The best position to take is a position that protects the truth. A balanced mind is sustained when it knows truth. Nothing can destroy truth. We cannot see what does not exist but we can always see what does.

A tormented mind is not free because it is obsessed with itself. We cannot make anything that is untrue true. There are no errors in truth. Our perceptions are only temporary perceptions. Knowing is affirming truth beyond perception. To perceive a truth is not the same as knowing a truth. If we abuse an error made by someone else, we are abusing ourselves alone. If we choose to judge, we have chosen conflict. Judgment is not required to organize our lives. Judgment is not required to arrange our selves as individuals. Where there is knowledge, no judgment is required.

Much Love and wisdom

pharoah21

17th July 2011, 13:36

DNA

17th July 2011, 13:45

greybeard

17th July 2011, 14:03

@greybeard. I think we find that before humanity starts getting things right, we have to explore two extremes. That is, for too long now, we have been looking at gurus and teachers as the be all and end all of spirituality (most people anyway), instead of truly finding the spiritual guru inside ourselves. Now little grandma wants us to give all of them up, and look inside ourselves. That is not such a bad move.

Balancing both extremes would be ideal.

Yes I have
Try alcoholism then try recovery by the Grace of God.
The human will, will not recover you from addiction--- spiritual will--- Higher Self --does--

Little Grand mother is now teaching what the sages of ancient and modern times have said
Heaven is within. (everything contains God)
Jesus said Look under a stone etc.

There is a state known as enlightenment-- if I want to know about that state I listen to those in that state.
They are uniform in stating God is within.
They all sugest meditation.
They all say ego is the obstacle.

Chris

Ps I had to be shown how to recover from alcoholism by people who had.
By the same token as said I listen to those who are spiritually advanced.
They are free of all fear and are fully aware of their true Self undiluted by ego.

C

DNA

17th July 2011, 14:17

Yes I have
Try alcoholism then try recovery by the Grace of God.
The human will, will not recover you from addiction--- spiritual will--- Higher Self --does--

Little Grand mother is now teaching what the sages of ancient and modern times have said
Heaven is within. (everything contains God)
Jesus said Look under a stone etc.

There is a state known as enlightenment-- if I want to know about that state I listen to those in that state.
They are uniform in stating God is within.
They all sugest meditation.
They all say ego is the obstacle.

Chris

I hear you Chris my brother. You make some excellent points.
I would like to state though that I don't think it possible or even a good idea to try and look at the ego as a dispensable obstacle.
A lot of spiritualists treat the ego like a mutant child born of insestual relations to be kept locked in the cellar.
This way it can be claimed it doesn't exist. But we all know it exists, and it never ever goes away in my opinion except for blissfull moments of deep meditaiton.

I think it is best to invite your ego up out of the basement. Let it eat at the table. Civilize it, educate it, nourish it and make love not war with it. :)
The ego is part of the human experience and from what I can tell, IS the reason and soul clothing with which we are here to operate through.
We are spirits having a human experience, and the ego is that experience.

truthseekerdan

17th July 2011, 14:23

Yes Chris, 'God' does not force anyone to change. Ultimately it's their own free choice to do so, and part of the human experience. Who we are now is a result of the person we once were, and what we will become will be the result of what we are now. The greater our understanding of this one statement, the more flexible and tolerant we become. The more flexible and tolerant we become, the more our love begins to expand outward towards others. The more our love begins to expand outward towards others, the more balanced we become. The more balanced we become, the more we develop a sense of peace and well being. The more we develop a sense of peace and well being, the better we see illusions as illusions and reality as reality. Once we realize the difference between illusion and reality, we are better able to listen to our own thoughts without being caught up in them.

Namaste ~ Dan

pharoah21

17th July 2011, 14:26

Great points greybeard, that's exactly the balance people need to find IMO. In regards to the whole ego thing, Madhatter says it best. 'Let spirit be the CEO, and ego be the manager.' If we had no ego, we would probably never eat, we may end up being a vegetable. Ego has it's purpose in life, otherwise God would not create it. Ego is only destructive when it becomes the CEO, which is when it starts to play the 'happiness is just around this corner' game.

greybeard

17th July 2011, 14:42

If you want to continue reincarnating time and time again then do not listen to the sages teaching since time began.
There is a permanent ego less state as testified to by Ramana amongst many.
It is helpful to tame the ego first though.

Search for truth diligently.

Chris
http://peacefulrivers.homestead.com/Maharshi.html

http://www.writespirit.net/authors/ramana_maharshi/life_of_ramana_maharshi/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4G4oIe6SIZI

truthseekerdan

17th July 2011, 15:12

truthseekerdan

17th July 2011, 16:55

As a human being, you will make mistakes in arriving at truth. Do not allow remorse to become a Prompter. Be joyful that error has disclosed truth. To err is human. Evil is human. But evil is illusion, nothing more. It dissipates in front of good almost magically, and every error in your life is for the purpose of revealing truth to you and not to stultify your divinity in shame and remorse and fear. There will be evil in the world until man completes his progress to a oneness with God (All That Is).

For there will be error until all truth is known. You will make mistakes. You cannot live and not make mistakes. But this you can do. You can suffer the consequence of each mistake only once and no more. Find a man who has suffered a score of defeats and you will find a great soul. He may know more of truth than the man who has won a half dozen victories. The man with the half dozen victories knows a half dozen truths. While the man with a score of defeats may know twenty truths!

Just wanted to share this quote with all of you.

"A person does not have to be behind bars to be a prisoner.
People can be prisoners of their own concepts and ideas.
They can be slaves to their own selves." ~ Maharaji

Loveisall21

27th July 2011, 20:11

I just would like to echo what pickle had to say, I also feel no different since getting the reading. And in deciding whether to pm or not I had to acknowledge how my ego was reacting. Which was an interesting bit of inner work. I know nothing of Hawkin's work, just a little about muscle testing. I think if properly done it has some validity.

Whether or not someone across a distance can calibrate anothers conciousness is up for debate for me. It may be Eternal One is completely off the mark or completely on the mark with this. I don't judge it. He offered this and I took him up on it. I was curious. And no matter what number he gave me it wouldn't change the amount of work I feel I have to do, which I think is alot.

I think Eternal One is coming from a good place and he has posted many inspiring and insightful stories and I thank him for that.

Fred Steeves

27th July 2011, 20:59

I asked for a calibration early on, and in all truth I don't really see the bfd here. We're all grown ups, and therefore can choose for ourselves what to do, and be responsible for any consequences. I really don't see it any differently than taking your chances with a fortune teller, palm reader, etc. The one misgiving I have come to have about it, is people possibly beginning to identify with their number, and being that mine and many others are public, the very human characteristic of comparison. I'm not above that either, I scored much higher than some, and much lower than others. It bothers me that I even think about it that way. But hey, that's my problem and I'll deal with it. And learn.

You know what, Eternal-One didn't force anyone to request a reading, and I've sensed no malevolence, so as far as I'm concerned there's nothing to see here folks.

BTW, Eternal-One does have some genuine psychic abilities to boot, I'll give testament to that.

Cheers,
Fred

greybeard

27th July 2011, 21:03

If you want to continue reincarnating time and time again then do not listen to the sages teaching since time began.

Dear Chris, all sages can point one to find the truth and reveal your spiritual state. Therefore they're like a reflection in the mirror. For example if you want to comb your hair, you look in the mirror however, you don't start combing the mirror. Thus we have to learn to listen to our True Self (Higher Self) if we want real change and spiritual progress in our lives. Hope this helps.

Love and Unity

We tend to lie to ourselves regarding the reflection in the mirror, thats human ego for you
Mirror mirror on the wall who is the fairest of them all.

There is only One Self.
The Sage knows this experientially.
The student does not and accepts the word of the Master that there is a state called enlightenment.

The Self of the Sage is the same as your Higher Self.
Much communication comes from your personal ego as it pretends to be your true self .
So it is difficult to keep on track without the guidance of one who has trod the path and is enlightened.
There is an enormous amount of guidance in the stories on this thread
One first learns to follow then if it is their destiny they become a Sage by the Grace of God.

Maharaji Nasargadatta is one Master
His book ""I am that" is a classic.

Every enlightened soul came into that state through the Grace of God
Humility is required-- a person cant make it happen.
All they can do is endeavor to remove the obstacles and even they have to be surrendered to God
Now I believe that the human race en-mass may now have an opportunity to be in that state

Chris

Namaste