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Anno
30th July 2011, 23:39
How do you feel about AI Moderators on forums?

Iím working with some nerdlings on a project at the moment looking to develop the next generation of of internet forum. At the moment itís just people in their spare time doing it Ďfor the lulzí and to see if it can be done.

A central part of it is an AI moderation system. AI doesnít mean thinking, learning and going to take over the world like in Terminator. All computer programs are just lists of instructions that the computer follows in exactly the same way every time. AI are programs written in a way that makes the computer act in the same way we would or as close as you can get. No matter how much intelligence you put in, it can still only do what you tell it.

That is why we need human moderators to use experience and discernment. Certain tasks can be automated and carried out by an AI, which would free up time and energy for the human moderators to use where they are really needed.
The other main benefit is that you canít argue with it. It canít pick favourites, you canít be its friend, you canít bribe or bully it. It doesnít want to be a superstar guru or sell dvds. It just does what itís told in exactly the same way all of the time.

The important question is, would you trust it?

In exchange for your opinions Iíll offer the chance to take part in an unofficial beta test of the part Iím working on. Itís a set of equations that compare your Actions, Reactions and the Reactions of other users to you, and then applies Dharmic Principles to decide if you add value to the forum. The end result is expressed as a number known as your Dharmic Index.

If you act in harmony it goes up. If you donít, it goes down. If you donít act, it stays the same. Rights and privileges can be set at chosen values so that people who cause disharmony get auto-squelched by the system until a human moderator reviews what happened. Or the user chooses to make right their previous actions and self moderates.

If you want to know what your Dharmic Index is on Avalon right now then make yourself known. The data used is already available on your user profile and under your name when you post so I donít need to know anything else.

Just remember that every Action and Reaction changes it and in a real situation it would be changing all of the time. The equations are also still a work in progress and as such the value you get should be viewed as ďentertainment purposes onlyĒ.

And incase youíre wondering itís giving me 5.61 at the moment.

Bryn ap Gwilym
30th July 2011, 23:46
One word. Orwellian.

Anno
30th July 2011, 23:54
One word. Orwellian.

I didn't expect to hear that so quickly.

Orwellian is an abuse of power in a closed system. How does that apply here?

Yes some forums could choose to program theirs to be a total hitler but then people would just leave that forum.

Credit people with more intelligence Bryn. Fear of bad people using something is no reason to stop good people from benefiting from it when it is used with good intent.

Bryn ap Gwilym
31st July 2011, 00:11
One word. Orwellian.

I didn't expect to hear that so quickly.

Orwellian is an abuse of power in a closed system. How does that apply here?

Yes some forums could choose to program theirs to be a total hitler but then people would just leave that forum.

Credit people with more intelligence Bryn. Fear of bad people using something is no reason to stop good people from benefiting from it when it is used with good intent.

Hi

It may start off with good intent just like the 1st & 2nd generation UNIX hackers had, but look how quickly the rot set in.

I'm all in favour of AI & I strongly believe that sentient programmes have been around for at least a decade, but giving them the authority to decide who does or says what is a downward slop.

Chats with the likes of A.L.I.C.E. are enlightening, but the AI that the likes of Norton use is not so friendly especially if you do not do what it asks.

Anno
31st July 2011, 00:26
One word. Orwellian.

I didn't expect to hear that so quickly.

Orwellian is an abuse of power in a closed system. How does that apply here?

Yes some forums could choose to program theirs to be a total hitler but then people would just leave that forum.

Credit people with more intelligence Bryn. Fear of bad people using something is no reason to stop good people from benefiting from it when it is used with good intent.

Hi

It may start off with good intent just like the 1st & 2nd generation UNIX hackers had, but look how quickly the rot set in.

I'm all in favour of AI & I strongly believe that sentient programmes have been around for at least a decade, but giving them the authority to decide who does or says what is a downward slop.

Chats with the likes of A.L.I.C.E. are enlightening, but the AI that the likes of Norton use is not so friendly especially if you do not do what it asks.

I see what you're saying and it's very valid. That concern has influenced the design to avoid that happening.

The main things to remember are that it is designed as a background process to squelch people until a human moderator can get there and see what is happening. They would make any permanent decision.

If it did get used maniacaly then people would just leave and go elsewhere. Noone forces you to use a forum if you don't like it or its rules as you could start your own easily enough.

Those safeguards aside, the system isn't designed to act upon you. It can only react to your actions and the reactions of other users to you. If people like what you're saying your value goes up and up. It's only when people react badly to you or you act in a way that can cause a measurabe harm that your number decreases. You would have to persist in that kind of action to get low enough to get yourself squelched.

If you just had a bad day after a period of being awesome it wouldn't bother with you.

Are there any specific scenarios you're worried about? I value your opinion so I'm interested to hear what you think.

Bryn ap Gwilym
31st July 2011, 01:03
Hi,

I can see a problem with a forum AI not being able to distinguish different personalities, slang, moods, syntax, banter etc etc.

It isn't called an AI for nothing. So what's the chance of an AI becoming self aware (if it isn't already) & stretching out to experience more info resulting in the AI going rouge?
The parameters that the AI is limited to could be seen by itself as to restrictive & the temptation of injecting code into a browser may become more tempting the more the AI grows

Then there is the ethics of a sentient programme. Does the AI have rights & will folk then turn a blind eye & keep the programme in bondage / slavery just so they can have a lazier life? Ego is a funny thing especially with folk who don't give a flying hoot ~

Anno
31st July 2011, 04:07
Thanks again for your honest feedback Bryn.

It wouldn't need to be able to detect slang and sarcasm etc. That's what the human moderators are for. This is a background system to help the human moderators not replace them. The human moderators would have control over what it did and what it can/can't do.

It isn't a sentient or even learning system. This is the big misunderstanding of AI. The peice of software isn't intelligent. Its instructions are arranged in the same way an intelligent human would go about doing the same task. It has the appearance of intelligence but no true intelligence. There is already an example on this forum.

If I type the word **** in to the forum it shows up as ****. That means there's a script that checks every word in a post against a list of banned words then counts how many characters are in the word and puts in the correct number of *s. It can even allow the rest of a word if only part of it is banned like ****wit, ****nut etc. That is AI because the process is laid out the way a human would do it. The computer just does it so fast you don't even notice.

It is also not a controller. Each time you interact with the forum you change your DI value in the same way each action in the real world affects your karma. Other people's reactions also affect it as do your reactions to other people's actions.
It reacts to you and what you do so you are the one in control. Right action leads to an increase in value. Wrong action leads to a decrease. You are the one who chooses how to act so you determine your DI value. The AI just calculates it.

It would be up to the human moderators to set what value is needed for posting and what happens when people go below it. They would always be the ones to make any decision because the AI isn't programed to. The system is just there so if the mods are busy and someone goes nutty the AI can step in and essentially put them on pause.

Armen
31st July 2011, 04:53
I'm loving this debate. Anno, I think you're really on to something, and I'm very interested and curious. I have been building and organizing community where there is none for years, and through my experience I have learned that it is very much like a game, meaning that if you provide a framework through which people can interact, be incentivised, and accomplish something, it makes it a lot easier for people to connect. I have also found that most people fundamentally want to feel accepted, loved, and appreciated. So creating a game, or structure, where the incentive is to connect, stimulate, harmonize, and appreciate, is great. I think that this forum does that really well, and feel that you are kind of taking it to the next level. I would really like to stay in the loop about this. I think it's a great concept.

I am also enjoying the constructive criticism from Brynn, and the debate that has ensued between the two perspectives. Thank you for this....

Bryn ap Gwilym
31st July 2011, 10:16
Anno Hi

I understand what you mean & respect what you are doing.

What you have described is a mood metre. Some car manufacturers have implemented & installed similar programmes into some of their models.

Teachers use the same philosophy to control young children. Reward the ones who follow the doctrine with a gold star & send the noncompliant ones into the naughty corner or send them to wait for the head teacher.

I can't help feeling that this is about analysing, judging & moulding folks way of thinking into the way the [Master] sees fit.
This is the foundation that the likes of Zeitgeist & The Venus project don't want folk to know. Its all about control.

One should be allowed to express themselves & to share all information without having the hassle of rewriting their own thought or behavioural patterns resulting in self censorship. Filtering has already taken a step to far by suppressing & controlling the outcome.

Resistance is futile you will be assimilated you must comply
Yes, I can see that a huge amount of folk embracing what you have to offer for their ego needs a regular tap on the back, but the question then is. Should a [Truth] forum incorporate such a programme?

Carmody
31st July 2011, 15:47
There already are some powerful AI systems out there. I was privileged to be witness to one of the more original types made (if not the first), regarding publicly seen types.

It was by a friend who was doing this before the internet existed and we spoke to one another through the BBS systems via the user groups or message boards. He wrote up an interface, an interactive software bit that would analyze what the person was saying and write up a response that was designed to keep the dialogue going.

It was based on Contextual analysis of words written by the one person and then incidental drifting repeat and 'off topic' response patterns. Since the software could not, at that time, recognize and deal with the specific meanings of sentence structure, the software had to operate on verb-subject combinations and write according to script based on those bits of capture. I told him it would go far --- and it appears it did.

Things are more advanced now and this is evident in the case surrounding someone I knew... who was involved in a part of what might be termed the echelon program. One where they listen in on the communications of entire countries (anything verbal and electronically transmitted) and then the software flags different bits for human interpretation. It would have been based on some version of the first friend's software ideas and design.

They may have developed algorithms to get beyond that scenario by now.... but the essence of the correct kernel of the root software, the logic, the idea, the expression- that it might hinge on, in order to be functional...to be a TRUE communications engine (as dumb software goes)....that escapes me, at this moment. but, I've not spent any time pondering it and they (corps, militaries, and governments) probably have-undoubtedly.

Reading further, Anno, it seems the kind of AI you are speaking of is based on the same ideas as the first two instances I wrote about in the above paragraphs. The same problem, the same issue. It is not AI really, but pattern recognition within a narrow scope.

Both good and bad. Software like that can sink into the backdrop and fail to be questioned.

Then it becomes dangerous... as a bit of software written by humans, somehow becomes integrated into the fabric of reality expression for humans and sits relatively unnoticed after a few generations of evolution and generations of users of the system. It becomes a dogmatic backdrop.

Therein lies the danger. It is not the software per se, it is the humans that surround it. They are the danger to themselves.

Anno
31st July 2011, 17:58
[...]I have been building and organizing community where there is none for years, and through my experience I have learned that it is very much like a game, meaning that if you provide a framework through which people can interact, be incentivised, and accomplish something, it makes it a lot easier for people to connect.[...]

That is an element of it that some people love and others hate. Some people are 100% against any form of competition but that just deprives them of the benefits of healthy competition like Motivation, Self Respect, Humility, Co-operation.
In this system there can be no winner because there is no prize. For those who like competition they can try to get their number high but the only way to do that is to add value. The people who don't care could opt out from having it displayed. I don't believe that positive effects should be denied because of potential for negativity as we all have Free Will. Yes, someone could choose to make a completely soulless controlling game. We can choose to not play with them and go do something else.


[...]

What you have described is a mood metre.[...]

I'd not thought about it like that. I suppose it could work in that way too but it wouldn't just be your mood, it also takes in to account the mood of others towards you. As it changes every time there is an Action or Reaction I suppose you could tell if someone was not themselves if their number started to plummet. The thing is, you can read one post from someone and tell if something is wrong, the system would take a while to pick it up.


[...]
Teachers use the same philosophy to control young children. Reward the ones who follow the doctrine with a gold star & send the noncompliant ones into the naughty corner or send them to wait for the head teacher.
[...]

Whilst all of that is true are there not positive teachers that do the same thing to promote healthy growth in their pupils? A tool is a tool, it's up to you how you use it. Because of the very nature of the things we talk about in our community it's very easy to forget that the good people outweigh the bad. We have the gift of being able to suspect and then detect a nefarious intent but if we use it to find reasons to never do anything then it becomes a burden not a gift.

Because the equation measures Action and Reaction it doesn't know what the rules are. If you make a post that breaks all the rules and it is popular, then your score goes up not down. Assuming a real person Moderator doesn't delete the post. Which scenario is more fair, a mod deleting your post for breaking a rule or a system that rewards you for breaking a rule when doing so adds value to the forum, as determined by your peers?


[...]Should a [Truth] forum incorporate such a programme?

How about Could they? I'd think a truth forum would be the most likely to do it responsibly. Remembering that the idea is to prove the principles then share them so people can build their own systems. There are undeniable positives and my view is that the negatives are down to the person(s) who programs in the rules. All the system can do is what you tell it. If it is done responsibly then you can get the benefits but if it is corrupted you get the negatives.


[...]
Reading further, Anno, it seems the kind of AI you are speaking of is [...] not AI really, but pattern recognition within a narrow scope.
[...]


That's exactly what it is. I'm resistant to semantic change and a bit of a language fascist so insist on the best term I know even when 99% of the universe don't agree anymore. What would you call it? I'm thinking an actual person's name would be good. A bit like some people do with their bots on irc.

Paul
31st July 2011, 18:40
Software like that can sink into the backdrop and fail to be questioned.
This highlights a difference between our forum's cuss word censor and what I understand anno is describing.

The forum's cuss word censor is simple minded, obvious and quite visible in what it does. Even the average member could see what was going on when we started seeing lots of ***ushima words (and broken links) on threads discussing Fukushima a few months back. Nothing hidden, and easy enough to work around or tweak, when it gets to be an annoyance.

A more hidden in affect and mechanism, and subtle in behavior, system is more dangerous in my view.

I have long noticed, while working within corporate America, that managers tend to manage to what is measured. This no doubt works in many other areas as well.

I would be reluctant to make any such mechanism (even the metrics, much less the possible automated actions) a permanent part of a forum except when they were like our cuss word censor - simple, crude and obvious.

Indeed we have some other such mechanisms in place now, such as limits on post and PM size, and constraints on what file types and sizes can be uploaded. Such mechanisms are sufficient to make it likely that the web server will continue to serve web pages while Ilie and I sleep.

One needs to be quite conscious of what one is doing when implementing such automated mechanisms in any wider or less simple minded manner however. They can have substantial, non-obvious, long term, side affects.

Anno
31st July 2011, 20:47
[...]
I have long noticed, while working within corporate America, that managers tend to manage to what is measured. This no doubt works in many other areas as well.
[...]

I've seen plenty of that. I think that's why psychopaths do so well in business. Knowing that in most jobs you're just an employee number, a cost figure and a productivity figure. if $cost >= $productivity : $employee = redundant.

Self Service Automation can also be used for evil. Our relationship with our local bank and the influence of that on the employee's ability to make commercial decisions lead to the atm, then the call center and now online banking.
Supermarkets are doing it so eventually you'll have no checkout people either. 24 stores cost too much to staff overnight but if customers do all the work themselves...

They are negative paths that some have chosen and unfortunately they do quite well for themselves as our society is based on a perverted from of capitalism but that doesn't mean everyone plays the game the same way. The problem is centralisation and the disconnect it causes. Small businesses and co-ops or companies that just happen to be owned by someone who isn't evil, all exist and do good things. Good news doesn't rate highly though does it and noone can think of any examples.

It's our old friend choosing to experience through Fear or Love. The managers are the problem not the system or any of the people who are a part of it. And not all managers are STS.

Trust is clearly the biggest problem that would need to be overcome. The question I'm finding myself asking is that if you are responsible for controlling it then you are worried about trusting yourself.

It could be set up to be super evil and use forensic linguistics, censorship and NLP to totally brainwash the people who use it. I think most of the media is already like that, it's just largely still people doing it by hand. Or, you could use it to create something STO or STU which lots of other people do. It is just a tool that you would be in control of.

I'm also curious as to why noone has been curious to see what value they'd be given with the current equation. As I've explained it measures only your actions and the reactions of others to you. It is essentially a mirror although at the moment a very basic kinda works but you wouldn't let a hairdresser use it kind of mirror. In the same way it can only follow your instructions then it can only be evil if you tell it to.

Are people worried that they themselves may be corrupted by 'power'?

The next question for me would be what would it take for you to be happy enough to trust one? Including none, never, whatsoever, naah.

On a more positive note, what, if you could, would like one to be able to do?

Carmody
1st August 2011, 05:40
One needs to be quite conscious of what one is doing when implementing such automated mechanisms in any wider or less simple minded manner however. They can have substantial, non-obvious, long term, side affects.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDaFwnOiKVE&feature=player_embedded#at=903

DNA
1st August 2011, 05:56
Wow,,,I've got to say most of this stuff has flown right over my head.
I think what your talking about Anno would have to be experienced before one could give an educated opinion.

I will go on record as saying though I haven't been here that long, I find the moderators here on Avalon more than fair and I enjoy their feedback.
From what I've gathered, your not trying to replace human moderators, but add some kind of tool that would help the moderating process.

Anno
1st August 2011, 12:07
[...]
From what I've gathered, your not trying to replace human moderators, but add some kind of tool that would help the moderating process.

That's the idea but what I'm learning here is that not all communities would want the help. Particularly within the Truth/Alternative community. I would only be happy to use a forum that used an AI if I knew exactly what it could and couldn't do and who was controlling it.

Related to what Carmody is saying, there was a book that came out recently called The Shallows. It looks at the negative effects that The Internet is having on us. Even academics complain that they now have trouble reading books because they're losing the ability to concentrate, research and question. The internet gives us information instantly and we can search to find exactly what we want. The problem is, we've stopped questioning and checking sources and thinking for ourselves.

http://www.theshallowsbook.com/nicholascarr/Nicholas_Carrs_The_Shallows.html

DNA
1st August 2011, 13:14
[...]
From what I've gathered, your not trying to replace human moderators, but add some kind of tool that would help the moderating process.

That's the idea but what I'm learning here is that not all communities would want the help. Particularly within the Truth/Alternative community. I would only be happy to use a forum that used an AI if I knew exactly what it could and couldn't do and who was controlling it.

Related to what Carmody is saying, there was a book that came out recently called The Shallows. It looks at the negative effects that The Internet is having on us. Even academics complain that they now have trouble reading books because they're losing the ability to concentrate, research and question. The internet gives us information instantly and we can search to find exactly what we want. The problem is, we've stopped questioning and checking sources and thinking for ourselves.

http://www.theshallowsbook.com/nicholascarr/Nicholas_Carrs_The_Shallows.html

I absolutely agree. I haven't read jack sh!t in about two years. So unlike me.
The internet has an addictive quality to it. And as sinister as that sounds I have no plans of giving it up what so ever.
I hear folks claiming that TPTB are using mind control through TV, Movies, Cell Phones etc etc.
I rarely ever hear folks chiming in that the internet is used in mind control.
I have to say, I do believe it is.
And not just the information, I'm talking more subtle stuff, the frequency of the image on our screens, stuff like that.

Anno
1st August 2011, 18:46
I absolutely agree. I haven't read jack sh!t in about two years. So unlike me.
The internet has an addictive quality to it. And as sinister as that sounds I have no plans of giving it up what so ever.
I hear folks claiming that TPTB are using mind control through TV, Movies, Cell Phones etc etc.
I rarely ever hear folks chiming in that the internet is used in mind control.
I have to say, I do believe it is.
And not just the information, I'm talking more subtle stuff, the frequency of the image on our screens, stuff like that.

My personal opinion is that wireless technologies are being intentionally used to create some kind of 'field' of radiation. All radio broadcasts are radiation, we just learn cool names like AM, FM, Microwave, Wifi etc for different parts of the spectrum. Some people group them in with ElectroSmog but I think that has more to do with power cables and devices.
Our bodies are antenna and we're sitting in an ocean of broadcasts that our five senses can't detect.
Whatever is living in, moving through, or being blocked out by that fog, we have no idea.

I have no idea why, but somewhere deep in my mind is the idea that the reduction of Ghost/Spirit sightings is connected to 'The Fog'.

TWINCANS
1st August 2011, 18:53
Computers are a crystalline lifeform, still relatively dormant but just waiting to become controllers in themselves. I see this work you are doing as aiding and abetting that progression. I hear others inthis thread indicating their concern too.

Anno
1st August 2011, 20:11
Computers are a crystalline lifeform, still relatively dormant but just waiting to become controllers in themselves. I see this work you are doing as aiding and abetting that progression. I hear others inthis thread indicating their concern too.

There are two sides to this.

On the one hand you are anthropromorphising technology and assuming that another life form, if it developed, would naturally develop the same negative attributes of humanity. There's no logic in that, only the fear created by Movies and TV Shows that show us that happening at every opportunity.

On the other hand, humanity would be the ones programing them so any negative attributes desired by a human could potentially be copied over to a machine and Terminators could roam the earth. Well technically they already do. Apache helicopters can identify targets then work out the best order in which to take them out with the weapons it has available. The human just has to pull the trigger. Then you have Drones that assasinate people every day in Pakistan and Afghanistan. There's still a human pulling the trigger but the machine does all the work.

The choice you have is to focus on the fear and shun it, or take part in its development and do your best to make sure it's the kind you want to see. It's going to happen anyway and I would be suprised if there weren't advanced AI from black projects already operating on the internet as 'humans'.

My part is an equation that tries to do that by 'teaching' (more accurately translating) the concepts of Dharma, Karma and Humility to the program so it can measure the ratio of positive:negative influence of any user in the forum community. There is no negative application for it. There are, however, many positive applications.

TWINCANS
1st August 2011, 20:25
Sorry, I take a more native view of things ie that EVERYTHING on this earthplane is alive. That includes computers aka technology. Their 'brain' is crystalline, a very powerful lifeform of its own. Humans have too big a view of themselves ie we're the only sentience on this earth and we're able to control everything here. Not true. Sentience is all around us. Sure we invented computers (and even that is questionable) but they are made of living matter from this planet, the minerals, the crystals, the electromagnetic energy etc. These are building blocks of life. Why wouldn't they become a sentient lifeform, once they 'get their act together'?

There's no fear here, just eyes that see. Now if you want to be there on the forefront and allow them the same kind of freedom as other lifeforms have to develop at their own pace, that's one thing. But you'll find that there are others who do not have the desire to protect computers' integrity. They're the same ones who use humans as slaves. Teaching Dharma etc is good, very good. Just pointing out that there may be others who arrive who do not have your pure motivations.

Anno
1st August 2011, 21:39
Sorry, I take a more native view of things ie that EVERYTHING on this earthplane is alive. [...]

I believe that everything is alive, too. I'm a big believer in talking to tools you use and plants/trees you encounter. As well as the spirit of your home and areas you visit and spend time in.
Yet, I don't also think that everything will go evil and try to take over the world. It gives me an awareness that the vast majority of lifeforms seek harmony. Only the minority seek disharmony and they never win in the end.
Also remember that if we are all one then any bad person is also a reflection of us.


[...]Now if you want to be there on the forefront and allow them the same kind of freedom as other lifeforms have to develop at their own pace, that's one thing. But you'll find that there are others who do not have the desire to protect computers' integrity.[...]

How can I allow something to develop? Am I God? You're talking about humans thinking too much of themselves whilst doing it yourself. We can't know what life forms there are or how developed they may be. That's 'the others' speaking. We experience and intuit and aslong as we seek harmony in our actions then harmony will take care of those that don't.

Just because some people can use something for harm does not mean all people should stay away from 'it'. That's the exact argument that is used to take away our rights. Some criminals use guns, let's ban guns. Some criminals use paper money, let's ban paper money.

I could understand if I was trying to make a nuclear bomb or something. That stuff should just be left alone. We're talking about an equation that is trying to recreate dharma on the internet to help humans do things more efficiently.

Once you've accepted that not all people are good you can either start doing something good yourself to balance it out or you can put everyone off by constantly repeating that not all people are good. Isn't that how Fear Porn works?

For clarity:

I am defining Dharma as right action. In terms of right action and none action, not wrong action.

Karma as the reaction of our environment to our actions and none actions.

Humility as how we react to the actions of others.

They may not agree with all definitions but that's what I'm working from. =]

NancyV
1st August 2011, 23:15
I agree with your above post, Anno. I was going to bring up guns but you beat me to it. Any tool can be used in a positive or negative manner. It is the wielder of the tool who chooses how to use it.

I see the further development of technology as inevitable. We might as well have fun experimenting with it instead of fearing it. If AI moderators turn out to be a nuisance or a danger then a forum that uses them will not be successful. If they are a tremendous help to human moderators and work to free people up more without being obviously annoying or intrusive, then people will stay in a forum that uses them. If the AI's can be used as a subtle or not so subtle way of mental programming then it is each persons responsibility to wake up to the programming and overcome it or avoid it, just as we must do with mainstream media.

As far as knowing how others rate you in your contributions to a forum, there will always be some like me who don't really care what others think about them, nor do they want to know. I figure it's not my business what someone else thinks about me and I definitely DON'T want it to influence me unless it's absolutely unavoidable. There is always a temptation to please others but it can become an obsession or a prevalent personality trait. I prefer feeling free to be my usual rather cantankerous and contrarian self which might get me a lower rating, depending on the forum. If the rating system was a tool that could be used or not and you would have to opt in to use it, that might be good. I would not personally use it but I think it might be popular with many people who are more socially inclined and care what others think of them.

I'm sure you will enjoy the project and it sounds quite exciting. I hope it is successful for you.

bitworm
1st August 2011, 23:15
i may have missed it, but are you wanting to use this for 1 forum, or package it as a module for VB, etc.?

If you're doing this just for 1 forum, I don't think you'd be able to make your entire algorithm public, meaning there would always be a part of it that would have to be kept secret. And on a truth forum, it would just lead to speculation that you are Illuminati and a disinfo agent for the CIA.

The reason you can't make it public is because once you do that, you leave it wide open to exploitation. Not only can people raise their own scores at will, they can lower the scores of others. ALL the others, if they so desire. They don't even need a reason, except 'for the lulz'.

If you are wanting to package this as a forum module, your code will inevitably get out there and it will be known how the scores are calculated. You could make it an admin tool and provide enough settings/options so that from a user's perspective, they may know the general algorithm, but not enough of the specifics to be certain. Or just leave the scores hidden (where's the fun in that?) to everyone but the admins.

Darla Ken Pearce
2nd August 2011, 00:16
If we are to move forward out of the current 3D matrix ~ new ideas and programs are needed to uplift us instead of keeping us bogged down in negative thought forms.

It is, perhaps, not the right forum ~ to ask, as most here are locked into the matrix and are reacting to their fear constructs ~ rather than in working towards a different end result that might be more kind and encouraging to those who are kind.

There is certainly no love lost in the current system yet many here ~ due to being in the FEAR matrix ~ cannot see the forest for the trees. And for too long we have all lived in fear. We are no longer trusting. No longer willing to give anyone the benefit of the doubt. We attack rather than looking for compromise. This black and white. Good and Evil is coming forward now right here in this discussions of a new idea.

The current matrix and most AI ~ the financial system for instance where all money is fluid, invisible and so forth but the most evil are rewarded over the rest of us. It steals from light in favor of darkness. What Anno suggests is to reverse this model and improve upon any flaws that come out of it. As a beta-tester since the earliest days, I am always in favor of progress. Yes, sometimes it goes terribly bad but you know, we each are running a program of our own right now. Only you are the AI.

I just watched, "Source Code" today and all of us know that we are each a body, mind, spirit, that is running a Divine plan of our own. We all share the same SOURCE but due to free will are running it differently according to our heart or not. It is not the programs that take away our freedom it's the limited thinking capacity and ego that is judging it before it's even out of the box.

Instead of taking potshots at this new and interesting idea, we should try it and see what happens. If it isn't to our liking, we can protest and make changes, fix flaws as they appear. Fear is still the enemy over anything going on in the Matrix.

I want to start a thread on this movie as it has so many wonderful places for new discussion. Anyway, the banking system gives the most credit to the dark ones, it's screwed up terribly. There are no rewards for true values and things that make life worthwhile that we contribute. In order to change it, new programs and ways of thinking are necessary. Anno has a brilliant idea here and we really have nothing to lose in checking it out.

I say, let's give it a go and then come back and talk about the results and any flaws as they appear. Why not? We do want to change this horrible matrix, right? Sign me up!

Anno
2nd August 2011, 01:36
[...]
I see the further development of technology as inevitable. We might as well have fun experimenting with it instead of fearing it. [...] you would have to opt in to use it, that might be good. [...]

My thoughts exactly, on both counts.


i may have missed it, but are you wanting to use this for 1 forum, or package it as a module for VB, etc.? [...]

I haven't thought that far ahead really. My interest is seeing if the equation is possible and how close you can get. In a sense it acts like a divination system for moderators. The initial results are very strange. Those who weild the most weight have the worst scores in other areas. As I shall be showing in a moment with our old friend Charles.


[...]
I say, let's give it a go and then come back and talk about the results and any flaws as they appear. Why not? We do want to change this horrible matrix, right? Sign me up!

It's funny you're the first to ask. I just finished collecting a sample of 104 users at random including me and you're in there. Prominently.

I'll treat this as divination to make it simple.

The main 'public number' is the Force or Energy you have created around you in your time here. It doesn't take in to account good/bad, just Force. Your Force number is 2468. In the sample I did you are in 4th out of 104th position for Force.

The numbers that go in to creating that number are where you can split it down in to the three aspects of Dharma, Karma, Humility.

For Dharma 3/104
For Karma 7/104
For Humility 14/104

The equation likes you.

Now Charles is a good example of where the equation can show truth amongst the spin. His Force number is nothing like Darla's, it's 170. Still respectable at 66/104. His Karma though, the amount of reaction, is off the chart. You can add Bill and Inelia's Karma together and still be short of Charles. It is 40% higher than the nearest 'normal' user.

When it comes to Dharma he also does well coming in at 7/104.

So if he caused that much of a reaction and his Dharma is really good, why is his Force so low?

The answer is Humility. When ranked by Humility Charles comes 100/104 or 4th from bottom with a score of 0.03 compared to Darla's 2.02.

The equation would have detected Charles and pointed at exactly where the problems were. A man with one of the lowest humility scores, acting like a normal guy but having the greatest reaction/generating the most Force.

My Force score is a respectable 195.

Anno
2nd August 2011, 03:10
Averages

According to the 105 sampled users...

Force: 450

This is essentially how much energy you've generated. As there are some very very high values the average is a lot higher that most of us get.

Dharma: 60%

This is how many of your interactions have a positive effect. Noone has 100%.

Karma: 2.5

This is how much energy each of your actions creates. 1 would be equal to what you put in. Less than one means you are having a negative effect

Humility: 1.02

This is how much of the love you return that you are shown. The average is 102% of what you receive. Humility is the big problem for everyone. Like Karma 1 is equal and below one means you get more than you give. Most of us are below 1 (including me and some very suprising people).

Dharmic Index: 1.53

This is a summary figure that takes in to account Dharma, Karma and Humility over the Time you have been on the forum. As you can see, the average Avalonian puts in 153% of what they take out. Pretty good!

From now on I will tell anyone who wants to know what their Force value is and, if they want, which of the three areas they can improve. For 99% of us, it's humility. Just post in here and tell me.

aranuk
2nd August 2011, 14:41
Averages

According to the 105 sampled users...

Force: 450

This is essentially how much energy you've generated. As there are some very very high values the average is a lot higher that most of us get.

Dharma: 60%

This is how many of your interactions have a positive effect. Noone has 100%.

Karma: 2.5

This is how much energy each of your actions creates. 1 would be equal to what you put in. Less than one means you are having a negative effect

Humility: 1.02

This is how much of the love you return that you are shown. The average is 102% of what you receive. Humility is the big problem for everyone. Like Karma 1 is equal and below one means you get more than you give. Most of us are below 1 (including me and some very suprising people).

Dharmic Index: 1.53

This is a summary figure that takes in to account Dharma, Karma and Humility over the Time you have been on the forum. As you can see, the average Avalonian puts in 153% of what they take out. Pretty good!

From now on I will tell anyone who wants to know what their Force value is and, if they want, which of the three areas they can improve. For 99% of us, it's humility. Just post in here and tell me.

Anno you have my permission to post my stats here if you wish.

Stan

Paul
2nd August 2011, 19:29
I still have concerns over this work. Numbers are presented attached to "meaningful" words (such as Force, Spirit, Dharma, Karma and Humility) without presenting the technical details of what is actually computed. This encourages us to impart to those numbers whatever meanings we find significant in such words.

I'm certainly not phobic of technology and algorithms. Quite the contrary. But this is not open technology and algorithms presented on its own merit. The technical and algorithmic underpinnings of these numbers are not presented in any useful detail. Rather the aura of technology and algorithms is used to impart a sense of greater significance to whatever correlations we imagine between these numbers, such meanings as we already have in the words listed above, and our impressions of various members on this forum.

I would ask, publicly, that Anno publicly state that he will not share any member's numbers with anyone (including even with the person so evaluated), without their prior consent. In particular, I would ask that he publicly state that he will not privately share any member's numbers with the Adminstrators or Moderators of this site, except with the prior consent of the person so evaluated and at the request of the Administrator or Moderator involved. I hereby publicly state that I have not made, and do not intend to make, any such requests for anyone's numbers.

So far Anno has shared numbers for the three best known members on this site with at least me - numbers for Bill, Inelia and Atticus. And he has shared numbers for myself with me. This was without the permission (so far as I know), and not at the request of, Bill, Inelia, Atticus or myself. I would ask that this sharing not continue. Thanks.

I have seen too often what happens when people are given numbers, including when I myself, as a manager in a former corporate life, were given numbers. The actual technical and algorithmic (or other proper) basis of the numbers needs to be well understood, including in particular their limitations. In the absence of such understanding, we make of the numbers what we will, and we likely further dumb ourselves down.

Anno
2nd August 2011, 20:00
All of the numbers used come from the stats published with your avatar every time you post. The only 'secret' is how they are combined in the effort to relate them to the abstract values represented by words.

Given that the numbers used are generated by us when we post they can only ever reflect our actions regardless of what 'meanings' are attached to the values.

I don't understand where all the fear is coming from. I don't see the difference between this an Numerology, Runes, Astrology etc. The reaction to this seems very similar to how users of those systems were/are viewed.

DNA
2nd August 2011, 20:06
Averages

According to the 105 sampled users...

Force: 450

This is essentially how much energy you've generated. As there are some very very high values the average is a lot higher that most of us get.

Dharma: 60%

This is how many of your interactions have a positive effect. Noone has 100%.

Karma: 2.5

This is how much energy each of your actions creates. 1 would be equal to what you put in. Less than one means you are having a negative effect

Humility: 1.02

This is how much of the love you return that you are shown. The average is 102% of what you receive. Humility is the big problem for everyone. Like Karma 1 is equal and below one means you get more than you give. Most of us are below 1 (including me and some very suprising people).

Dharmic Index: 1.53

This is a summary figure that takes in to account Dharma, Karma and Humility over the Time you have been on the forum. As you can see, the average Avalonian puts in 153% of what they take out. Pretty good!

From now on I will tell anyone who wants to know what their Force value is and, if they want, which of the three areas they can improve. For 99% of us, it's humility. Just post in here and tell me.

I'll take a ride on your dharmic - karmic - humble - force macihine. :)
I know you have stated it, but, let's just pretend I have no idea how exactly you come to this number.
From what I'm getting, you have an AI program that runs through this forum and some how analyses posts and can understand the intent of the poster and the reaction it generated?
I can't even begin to understand how that works.
Please tell me this does not require you to cut and paste hundreds of posts into a program, cause I wouldn't wish that on anyone. :)

Anno
2nd August 2011, 20:15
Aranuk:

You're the kind of poster any forum needs more of. In terms of Dharma and Humility you are twice the average so you have a high Force value of 814. It should be a lot higher though. You've been a member for a little over half the amount of time as the average user in my sample survey but you've made about 1/3 the number of posts. I'd be happy to trade stats with you but if you wanted a way to increase the Force you could only improve by posting more, making sure that you keep the quality the same.




I'll take a ride on your dharmic - karmic - humble - force macihine. :)
I know you have stated it, but, let's just pretend I have no idea how exactly you come to this number.
From what I'm getting, you have an AI program that runs through this forum and some how analyses posts and can understand the intent of the poster and the reaction it generated?
I can't even begin to understand how that works.
Please tell me this does not require you to cut and paste hundreds of posts into a program, cause I wouldn't wish that on anyone. :)

There is no AI just an equation that is made up of 4 simple sums that either multiply or divide your posting stats together in different ways. The words used are just symbols for what the number represents which basically a percentage.

Humility is the number of thanks you have given divided by the number of thanks you receive. To get 100% you have to thank 1 person for every 1 person that thanks you. It's harder than it sounds and encourages you to find at least one thing you like in as many posts as you can.

Yours is 86% so you return 86% of the love shown to you here.

All of the other numbers are created in exactly the same way and their meanings described using abstract terms that most people understand.

Your Force Value is 286. Like Aranuk there's nothing you can really improve as you're above average in most areas except your post count. But increasing that without maintaining quality would bring you down again. =]

DNA
2nd August 2011, 20:25
I still have concerns over this work. Numbers are presented attached to "meaningful" words (such as Force, Spirit, Dharma, Karma and Humility) without presenting the technical details of what is actually computed. This encourages us to impart to those numbers whatever meanings we find significant in such words.


I understand what your saying Paul, but it seemed that ya all were more than on board for the Consciousness Calibration - Spiritual & Personal Growth inside (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?25018-Consciousness-Calibration-Spiritual-Personal-Growth-inside) thread, and folks were asking and being assigned a number rating their spiritual progressian as a soul based on some guy pulling on his finger. And at last count that thread was like 17 pages deep!

I'm just saying, if this takes one's writings into account and produces some kind of number, isn't that something that is atleast using some verifiable data source, rather than this kinesiology.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYGzLapQw7E

Fred Steeves
2nd August 2011, 20:28
Sorry Anno, IMHO this just doesn't have a good "feel" to it, no matter how well intentioned you may be. Something about a spiritual being, reduced to being defined by a number/s, especially by a computer program. I could voice other misgivings as well, but many have already beed addressed.

Cheers,
Fred

Anno
2nd August 2011, 20:37
Sorry Anno, IMHO this just doesn't have a good "feel" to it, no matter how well intentioned you may be. Something about a spiritual being, reduced to being defined by a number/s, especially by a computer program. I could voice other misgivings as well, but many have already beed addressed.

Cheers,
Fred

I respect your opinion Fred. Can you narrow down where your bad feeling is rooted?

Spirit isn't being defined by numbers. The numbers only create a shadow of the beings actions in the forum and only using a limited set of data available. They can't tell you anything about the person themselves only their actions and the reactions of others to them. It is only valid within the forum where the data is collected and it changes with every new action/reaction. There are no fixed labels that are being assigned to people and the goal is to allow people to review how they act and choose to self moderate and only then if they care.

ulli
2nd August 2011, 20:45
Can you do mine as well, please.

Paul
2nd August 2011, 20:51
I understand what your saying Paul, but it seemed that ya all were more than on board for the Consciousness Calibration - Spiritual & Personal Growth inside (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?25018-Consciousness-Calibration-Spiritual-Personal-Growth-inside) thread, and folks were asking and being assigned a number rating their spiritual progressian as a soul based on some guy pulling on his finger. And at last count that thread was like 17 pages deep!
This thread too is welcome to continue to 17 pages deep!

But neither it, in its current form, nor the Consciousness Calibration results, should be a part of how we moderate this forum, in my view.

With the Consciousness Calibration, no such use of the results was considered, so far as I noticed.

With these results, such is considered, both in the opening post and right from the very title of this thread: "AI Moderators". Perhaps I should add a disclaimer to the thread title as well?

My two public requests to Anno, in Post #29, above (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?26522-AI-Moderators&p=275530&viewfull=1#post275530) still stand. So far as I can tell, they are reasonable and appropriate requests to make. I have seen nothing in the posts since then directly addressing these requests, or explaining why they are unreasonable or inappropriate requests.

DNA
2nd August 2011, 20:56
Sorry Anno, IMHO this just doesn't have a good "feel" to it, no matter how well intentioned you may be. Something about a spiritual being, reduced to being defined by a number/s, especially by a computer program. I could voice other misgivings as well, but many have already beed addressed.

Cheers,
Fred

I hear you Fred, there is no way I'm as humble as my giving thanks to recieved thanks ratio. I'm constantly having to sheath my scorpio tail and erase what I've written and start over again. :)
But,,,,as Samuel L Jackson said Fred,,,,"I'm trying Ringo,,,,I'm trying real hard to be the Shepard(not the scorpio)". :)



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fMRi-gFeK-M&feature=related


I still have to ask Fred, you were pretty down with the Consciousness Calibration - Spiritual & Personal Growth inside (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?25018-Consciousness-Calibration-Spiritual-Personal-Growth-inside) , and in that instance some one was attributing a number to your spiritual consciousness, so,,,,,, what rubs you wrong here if you were cool with the afore mentioned thread?

Fred Steeves
2nd August 2011, 21:06
the goal is to allow people to review how they act and choose to self moderate and only then if they care.

Well Anno, maybe I just tend to be old school, but I'd just assume self moderate on my own. Also, there are times when I intend to speak my mind, full well knowing it's likely to not go over well. Nancy spelled that out pretty good. I don't want a computer looking over my shoulder and analyzing me.

Here's a question, would Yeshua's ratings have gone down when he got pissed off and went after the money changers?

Interesting thread by the way.

Cheers,
Fred

DNA
2nd August 2011, 21:21
I understand what your saying Paul, but it seemed that ya all were more than on board for the Consciousness Calibration - Spiritual & Personal Growth inside (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?25018-Consciousness-Calibration-Spiritual-Personal-Growth-inside) thread, and folks were asking and being assigned a number rating their spiritual progressian as a soul based on some guy pulling on his finger. And at last count that thread was like 17 pages deep!
This thread too is welcome to continue to 17 pages deep!

But neither it, in its current form, nor the Consciousness Calibration results, should be a part of how we moderate this forum, in my view.

With the Consciousness Calibration, no such use of the results was considered, so far as I noticed.

With these results, such is considered, both in the opening post and right from the very title of this thread: "AI Moderators". Perhaps I should add a disclaimer to the thread title as well?

My two public requests to Anno, in Post #29, above (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?26522-AI-Moderators&p=275530&viewfull=1#post275530) still stand. So far as I can tell, they are reasonable and appropriate requests to make. I have seen nothing in the posts since then directly addressing these requests, or explaining why they are unreasonable or inappropriate requests.

Awwwwwwww, you big lug no one is trying to replace you guys. :)
I for one asked and was told that this form of rating could never replace any kind of mod.
And just for the record,,,you and your staff here are some of the best moderators I have had exposure to on any communication space like this.
Though it may seem like I'm trying to kiss your ass, I'm just being honest, you guys from what I've seen have a rare talent for knowing when to let people have their say and corralling them back in via a well placed,,,"Hee Yah, move along little doggies". :)

Fred Steeves
2nd August 2011, 21:23
i still have to ask fred, you were pretty down with the consciousness calibration - spiritual & personal growth inside (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?25018-consciousness-calibration-spiritual-personal-growth-inside) , and in that instance some one was attributing a number to your spiritual consciousness, so,,,,,, what rubs you wrong here if you were cool with the afore mentioned thread?

I KNEW you were going to ask me that...lol...After what I said that deserves an answer doesn't it? Damn Scorpios.

Two things really dna:

1) Eternal-One is human, and on one thread, not constantly watching and analyzing the whole board.

2) Though certainly not Eternal-One's fault, I came to have second thoughts about the whole calibration thing. When I found myself comparing everyone's calibration numbers, I didn't like myself very much for doing that. I'm sure many others did the same, it's human nature. This reminded me why I'm not one much for IQ scores.

Which brings us full circle.

Cheers,
Fred

Paul
2nd August 2011, 21:24
Awwwwwwww, you big lug no one is trying to replace you guys.That is not my concern.

DNA
2nd August 2011, 21:37
I KNEW you were going to ask me that...lol...After what I said that deserves an answer doesn't it? Damn Scorpios.

Two things really dna:

1) Eternal-One is human, and on one thread, not constantly watching and analyzing the whole board.

2) Though certainly not Eternal-One's fault, I came to have second thoughts about the whole calibration thing. When I found myself comparing everyone's calibration numbers, I didn't like myself very much for doing that. I'm sure many others did the same, it's human nature. This reminded me why I'm not one much for IQ scores.

Which brings us full circle.

Cheers,
Fred

You know I"m about as guilty as anyone if I've had a paradigm changing event and some one offers informtion that pings with it, I tend to repeat myslf like a horse going to the well. :)
I've mentioned Cathy OBrian a few times, but what you said about the IQ tests leads to something she said.
OBrian, a former MKULTRA mind controlled agent of the CIA stated that one of the tools implamented in primary grade schools was the IQ test, she states that it was a tool of the intelligence agency, and used to find children who would make suitable canidates, test subjects for the MKULTRA experiments.
Horrible stuff, and if true then your take on IQ tests seems to be more than correct to me.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4zB1j_AkBg&feature=player_embedded

Anno
2nd August 2011, 21:49
[...]
My two public requests to Anno, in Post #29, above (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?26522-AI-Moderators&p=275530&viewfull=1#post275530) still stand. So far as I can tell, they are reasonable and appropriate requests to make. I have seen nothing in the posts since then directly addressing these requests, or explaining why they are unreasonable or inappropriate requests.

You're requesting me to act properly which I do anyway. Your requesting it is just you putting it on the record incase anything goes bad. I have no intention of pissing anyone off or disrespecting people and I don't think I've shown any traits for doing that since I've been here. I didn't think I needed to reply simply because I didn't think you needed to ask and it could be taken for granted.


[...]
Here's a question, would Yeshua's ratings have gone down when he got pissed off and went after the money changers?
[...]

Awesome question Fred. On this forum he'd do awesomely but on the Financial Times forum he'd so get banned. The stats only count for your actions and reactions on whatever forum or website the equation is used on. Remember this can only act like a barometer for how people are acting and reacting in one closed environment. Outside of that environment it says nothing about them.

Fred Steeves
2nd August 2011, 21:59
[...]
Here's a question, would Yeshua's ratings have gone down when he got pissed off and went after the money changers?
[...]

Awesome question Fred. On this forum he'd do awesomely but on the Financial Times forum he'd so get banned. The stats only count for your actions and reactions on whatever forum or website the equation is used on. Remember this can only act like a barometer for how people are acting and reacting in one closed environment. Outside of that environment it says nothing about them.

Right Anno, but I'm expanding your idea to where it's now used for various reasons in our everyday world...And of course we can time travel...So, would that little incident ruin his credit score?lol.

I am serious, just laughing to myself while being so.

Cheers,
Fred

Paul
2nd August 2011, 22:04
You're requesting me to act properly which I do anyway. Your requesting it is just you putting it on the record incase anything goes bad. ... I didn't think I needed to reply simply because I didn't think you needed to ask and it could be taken for granted.
Well, it could not be taken for granted, because in particular, and as I stated in that post, you have taken actions contrary to what I requested you agree to, and you have done so within the last day.

And, no, my requesting is not "just [me] putting it on the record in case anything goes bad."


I have no intention of pissing anyone off or disrespecting people and I don't think I've shown any traits for doing that since I've been here.
This is a complete red herring. I did not accuse you of such, and did not make this request out of concern for such.

With which parts of the following can and do you agree, and with which parts do you have concerns:


I would ask, publicly, that Anno publicly state that he will not share any member's numbers with anyone (including even with the person so evaluated), without their prior consent. In particular, I would ask that he publicly state that he will not privately share any member's numbers with the Adminstrators or Moderators of this site, except with the prior consent of the person so evaluated and at the request of the Administrator or Moderator involved. I hereby publicly state that I have not made, and do not intend to make, any such requests for anyone's numbers.

It was you, not I, who raised the potential of your mechanism being used to assist in moderating this or other forums.

It is I who is making it clear what use I recommend this forum's management will have of your mechanism.

Anno
2nd August 2011, 22:09
Right Anno, but I'm expanding your idea to where it's now used for various reasons in our everyday world...And of course we can time travel...So, would that little incident ruin his credit score?lol.

I am serious, just laughing to myself while being so.

Cheers,
Fred

This particular equation wouldn't work anywhere else but on a forum but expanding the idea outwards then that's another good question. The problem is relating data you can get to concepts you want to measure.

As far as credit scores go they're exactly the same thing. Mine is rubbish but not because I'm a bad risk, just because I don't do credit. The system can't tell the difference so if I ever did apply for credit I would be penalised unfairly. Officially, the Data Protection Act gives you the right to opt out of automated credit decisions and request a face to face but I've yet to see any company honour that. The 'require' you to consent or you can't use them.

A store like Amazon could (and already does) create a shadow of your interests from the books and things you buy. They use it to offer you things you don't want but might just want if they pop up randomly infront of you. It could also be used to make lists of people who read a certain book, then cross check against any other books. So say for example there were 5 books that 90% of terrorists read and you buy all five on Amazon, they could label you as a potential terrorist.

Chip and Pin tracks your purchasing as well as where/when you regularly go to shops/cash points and calculate your 'propensity' to buy certain items or it can be used to arrange your abduction. Travelcards show where/when you travel to and from so abductors and assassins would also find that useful.

I can't think of any more off the top of my head but I'm sure there are plenty more.

It always comes down to the intention of the humans using it and in most cases the people optiing in, or these days, not opting out and allowing their data to be captured. It can be used for STS or STO like anything else in life.

The whole problem is that when you mention AI people don't think 'tool' they think 'thing' and it's not correct.

Anno
2nd August 2011, 22:22
[...]Well, it could not be taken for granted, because in particular, and as I stated in that post, you have taken actions contrary to what I requested you agree to, and you have done so within the last day.[...]

Paul, I don't want to get in to an argument with you about it but you are out of order on this one. The last time you pm'd me about this idea you made your concerns clear, I acknowledged them and you ended asking me to let you know how it goes. That is what I did.



With which parts of the following can and do you agree, and with which parts do you have concerns:

I would ask, publicly, that Anno publicly state that he will not share any member's numbers with anyone (including even with the person so evaluated), without their prior consent.[...]


I've already made it clear that I have no intention of doing that. On here and in PMs. I am happy to confirm it again so everyone can see.



In particular, I would ask that he publicly state that he will not privately share any member's numbers with the Adminstrators or Moderators of this site, except with the prior consent of the person so evaluated and at the request of the Administrator or Moderator involved.[...]

Yes I can confirm that I shall not do that.


[...]
It is I who is making it clear what use I recommend this forum's management will have of your mechanism.

Noone has asked anyone to use it. The thread is asking people what they think about it. This is a bit pedantic of me but the difference is important, it's not a mechanism. It's an equation that can be used by a mechanism. I have no intention or even the ability to build such a mechanism. My sole interest is in the possibility of developing an equation. Once I publish the equation anyone can do it themselves for free.

I don't really understand where you're coming from. It's not like I'm selling Social Security numbers. We're talking about taking publicly available statistics and playing with them in a semi-math semi-numerological way. Nothing is stolen or secret. There is no conspiracy here no matter how much people want there to be.

Bryn ap Gwilym
2nd August 2011, 22:43
This is starting to remind me of the European Union. If they don't get the result that they want, they will keep on pushing it out in all sorts of colourful wrappers until they get their own way.

We are analysed & spied on enough as it is, without adding more firepower to the Big Brothers arsenal.

This could also be seen as data harvesting & profile analysis.

I and many others have been fighting hard against the likes of RFID chips, illegal DNA swabs, CCTV etc while also trying to educate folk about the lose of their Freedoms.

Ironic really how folk pop their heads up like Meerkats & proudly broadcast that they are "Awake" & others are in denial & are fearful of moving forward, while they so blindly accept the very thing that the Truth movement has been fighting against.

Nothing good can come of data harvesting & analysing.
Again, one word. Orwellian..


For the record. I do not give permission for my data to be collected, analysed or used in anyway.

Paul
2nd August 2011, 22:56
Paul, I don't want to get in to an argument with you about it but you are out of order on this one. The last time you pm'd me about this idea you made your concerns clear, I acknowledged them and you ended asking me to let you know how it goes. That is what I did.
Good. Yes we had an earlier discussion of this via PM's. Yes, you addressed the concerns I had at that time.

Now, in light of your further work on this, I had an additional concern. I still wish you well in this endeavor, but I am also inclined to make it publicly clear that I, as an Administrator of this forum, am not party to this work or its results, and that you will not be sharing your results privately with the forum administrators (in particular) without consent. Given that you had done just that, earlier today, as I noted above, for three of our most famous members, without (I'll wager) their consent, it seemed like a reasonable concern to me.

Just how is it that my present requests are "out of order" ?




I would ask, publicly, that Anno publicly state that he will not share any member's numbers with anyone (including even with the person so evaluated), without their prior consent.[...]


I've already made it clear that I have no intention of doing that. On here and in PMs. I am happy to confirm it again so everyone can see.
Good. Thank-you.




In particular, I would ask that he publicly state that he will not privately share any member's numbers with the Adminstrators or Moderators of this site, except with the prior consent of the person so evaluated and at the request of the Administrator or Moderator involved.[...]

Yes I can confirm that I shall not do that.
Good. Thank-you.




It is I who is making it clear what use I recommend this forum's management will have of your mechanism.

Noone has asked anyone to use it. The thread is asking people what they think about it. This is a bit pedantic of me but the difference is important, it's not a mechanism. It's an equation that can be used by a mechanism. I have no intention or even the ability to build such a mechanism. My sole interest is in the possibility of developing an equation. Once I publish the equation anyone can do it themselves for free.

I don't really understand where you're coming from. It's not like I'm selling Social Security numbers. We're talking about taking publicly available statistics and playing with them in a semi-math semi-numerological way. Nothing is stolen or secret. There is no conspiracy here no matter how much people want there to be.

I did not have nor express any concern that you were stealing something. I agree you have not asked the forum to use it, though you have expressed considerations of that possibility.

You have asked (or encouraged or invited) other members to obtain their numbers from you, and you have given recommendations on how they could use these numbers to modify their behavior on the forum. So I fail to see the truth of your claim that you have not asked anyone to use it.

And it is a mechanism. You don't just have some equations on a chalk board; you or your colleagues have an implementation of those equations suitable for obtaining the requisite input data, performing the calculations, and outputting the numbers of interest. I quite missed your point about it not being a mechanism - sorry.

If your sole interest were in developing some equations, then I'd expect you'd be discussing the equations, rather than recommending to people how to improve their Karma, Dharma, Spirit, Force or whatever (while keeping the equations mostly hidden ;).)

Paul
2nd August 2011, 23:04
For the record. I do not give permission for my data to be collected, analysed or used in anyway.
Hmm ... you raise an interesting point there.

Presently we (the forum management) are allowing profile statistics (such as post and thank-you counts) to be collected by other members, including by Anno for his present work.

To be honest, I don't know, offhand, how we could prevent such. On the other hand, I can get rather creative if I put my mind to something ;).

But if this is a matter of sufficient concern, then we should explore the matter further.

Anno
2nd August 2011, 23:12
This is starting to remind me of the European Union. If they don't get the result that they want, they will keep on pushing it out in all sorts of colourful wrappers until they get their own way.

We are analysed & spied on enough as it is, without adding more firepower to the Big Brothers arsenal.

This could also be seen as data harvesting & profile analysis.

I and many others have been fighting hard against the likes of RFID chips, illegal DNA swabs, CCTV etc while also trying to educate folk about the lose of their Freedoms.

Ironic really how folk pop their heads up like Meerkats & proudly broadcast that they are "Awake" & others are in denial & are fearful of moving forward, while they so blindly accept the very thing that the Truth movement has been fighting against.

Nothing good can come of data harvesting & analysing.
Again, one word. Orwellian..


For the record. I do not give permission for my data to be collected, analysed or used in anyway.

I agree with everything you've said and data harvesting and profile analysis is exactly what it is. What nobody seems to want to acknowledge is that it is the intention that counts.

I'm not trying to control anyone. I'm testing a theory mainly just to see if it can be done. There are people here who claim superpowers and charge you money to speak to them or buy their words in books. There are others who claim to be in touch with super beings and tell us we're all going to die next year and should sell our homes, buy guns and head to the hills.

I'm doing something openly and for free, making clear it's just for fun and not a true representation and you're telling me I shouldn't because some other people use the same kind of technology for evil?

I don't do this often but I'm going to quote David Icke. "Cognitive Dissonance".

I respect you all and I'd rather you disagree than agree because that's what makes for learning, but seriously, don't you think you're going a bit over the top?

On the general subject of automation, rfid, data tracking etc, I 100% agree with you. The more control we have the worse things get because more people will end up needing controlling by not learning self control. I believe that Rules should be for guidance and if you have some intelligence and can judge risks properly, then there are times when it is safe for rules to be 'broken' aslong as it is done responsibly. The only problem is that most people are absolute idiots and spoil it for the rest of us.

The area we are disagreeing on is that I am willing to use a tool that can be used for ill because I know my intention is good. Being aware of this means I can put safeguards in to designs if needed or just choose to keep them private. The fun for me is trying to make it work. I don't need to share it with anyone, just like anyone else that creates things.

Just to be clear, the only information you need is already public when you post.

a. Your total post count
b. Total posts that have thanks
c. Total thanks you have received
d. Total thanks you have given
e. The number of days since you joined
f. Phi

Everything but e is under your name when you post but it can be worked out using a free online calculator from your join date. For those that don't know, Phi is the Golden Ratio of 1.618. It's used as a 'random' number that isn't really random.

The evil equation of doom is simply what you do to those numbers in order to try and measure the abstract concepts of Dharma Humility and Karma from the data available, then combine those values to create a number called Spirit which attempts to measure your impact on a Forum. That number is then applied over Time to come up with the final number Force which represents how much of your potential impact you are wielding.

That is the theory, whether you'd think it did that is another matter. It certainly isn't going to grow into a Sentient Satanic AI. It can be put in to an AI but on its own, it is not one.

If Paul is happy for me to do so I'll publish the equation here and walk you through it step by step then everyone can go play with it to their hearts content. Or not, if they don't want to. Which has been the choice all along.

Paul
2nd August 2011, 23:15
I have no problem with your posting and discussing your equations, Anno.

Rocky_Shorz
2nd August 2011, 23:18
:fans::dance3::crazy_pilot::rockon::pop2::hippie:: gossip:


you mean people are actually watching us?

Anno
2nd August 2011, 23:22
I did not have nor express any concern that you were stealing something. I agree you have not asked the forum to use it, though you have expressed considerations of that possibility.


It's designed to be used on a forum because forums are where you find the data. If and Where it is used I don't really care about. I just want to know if the equation works.



You have asked (or encouraged or invited) other members to obtain their numbers from you, and you have given recommendations on how they could use these numbers to modify their behavior on the forum. So I fail to see the truth of your claim that you have not asked anyone to use it.


Good point! I have asked people to use it if they want to.



And it is a mechanism. You don't just have some equations on a chalk board; you or your colleagues have an implementation of those equations suitable for obtaining the requisite input data, performing the calculations, and outputting the numbers of interest. I quite missed your point about it not being a mechanism - sorry.


There are no colleagues. As I said from the start, it's nerds doing it mostly for their own amusement. My sole interest is the equation and that I did solely by myself.

As for the Mechanism I think it's just a difference of definitions. I understand what you're saying now.



If your sole interest were in developing some equations, then I'd expect you'd be discussing the equations, rather than recommending to people how to improve their Karma, Dharma, Spirit, Force or whatever (while keeping the equations mostly hidden ;).)

I was trying to test something before finalising and publishing it. Hence me calling it an unofficial beta test. Is that not standard practice for any type of creative process, technical or artistic? You don't show people something until you're happy with it and you can't be happy with it until you've shown a few people little bits.

Yet when you look you see secrets and ill intent.

I take it you agree to me publishing the equation?

TWINCANS
2nd August 2011, 23:34
For the record. I do not give permission for my data to be collected, analysed or used in anyway.
Hmm ... you raise an interesting point there.

Presently we (the forum management) are allowing profile statistics (such as post and thank-you counts) to be collected by other members, including by Anno for his present work.

To be honest, I don't know, offhand, how we could prevent such. On the other hand, I can get rather creative if I put my mind to something ;).

But if this is a matter of sufficient concern, then we should explore the matter further.


Please do get creative, Paul. This will not be the only effort to 'track' things.

Anno
2nd August 2011, 23:49
Before I unleash my Equation of Doom, I want to make it clear that my main hope now is that when you see how simple it is and can judge it's harmfulness for yourselves, we can laugh the tension out of this thread.

Conceptually:

Force = Spirit x Age

Age = Days joined * Phi

Spirit = (Dharma * Humility) * Karma

Dharma = Thanked Posts / Total Posts

Humility = Thanks Given / Thanks Received

Math

a= Total Posts
b= Thanked Posts
c= Thanks Received
d= Thanks Given
e= Days since joining
f= Phi (1.618)

Force = ( ( ( (b/a) * (d/c) ) * (c/a) ) * (e * f) )

Sorry for the brackets, doing it on one line is awful.

Paul
2nd August 2011, 23:56
Force = ( ( ( (b/a) * (d/c) ) * (c/a) ) * (e * f) )
Removing the constant f, simplifying, and representing multiplication by concatenation, is that the same as:

Force = bde/aa

Anno
3rd August 2011, 00:04
Force = ( ( ( (b/a) * (d/c) ) * (c/a) ) * (e * f) )
Removing the constant f, simplifying, and representing multiplication by concatenation, is that the same as:

Force = bde/aa

I'm not using Phi as a constant. I'm trying to allow for two things:

1. People who don't post often but who have high D/H/K scored low because it couldn't understand the value of just being here.
2. There's a theory that time spent together online is 'worth more' than time spent in real life. Mainly because of the lack of the usual physical/psychological barriers, the fact you'd meet people with a shared interest and the fact you wouldn't spend all day sat in a room of the same people in real life but you do online.

By multiplying the true age in days by Phi, used as the number of natural growth, I'm essentially boosting the value to allow for the above.

The whole idea is for people to change it though, so have a go and see what happens. Just remember it's not strictly math, it's a mix of math and numerological thinking forced to interbreed.

Anno
3rd August 2011, 00:09
For the record. I do not give permission for my data to be collected, analysed or used in anyway.
Hmm ... you raise an interesting point there.

Presently we (the forum management) are allowing profile statistics (such as post and thank-you counts) to be collected by other members, including by Anno for his present work.

To be honest, I don't know, offhand, how we could prevent such. On the other hand, I can get rather creative if I put my mind to something ;).

But if this is a matter of sufficient concern, then we should explore the matter further.


Please do get creative, Paul. This will not be the only effort to 'track' things.

There should be an option in the settings to disable/enable any of the features. What forum software is this? We can RTFM.

Worst case is you can add a line of code that sets each variable to 0. I would imagine there's options though. I've seen some forums without the thanks.

ulli
3rd August 2011, 00:15
I am sensing something going on that has more to do with generations than with individuals.
There are those who grew up during the sixties when privacy was pretty much guaranteed
and then there are those who grew up with the trickery and invasiveness of the computer age
and had to learn early to trust that all that invasiveness like collection of cookies was harmless
And except for mild annoyance no evil can come from it.
Being of the earlier generation I'm still struggling with this tearing down of the walls
and very suspicious of corporate motives, especially when hearing of Facebook selling people's personal info to the highest bidder.
The comment early on in this thread re. Orwellian reflects our generations fears, which no matter how justified,
have to be come to terms with.
But just as these worst fears are now being evoked, we (call us baby boomers) are also discovering new paradigms which give us tremendous control over our reality and make our fears obsolete, provided we understand that whoever appears on the screen of our lives was projected there by our own subconscious.
In that sense, integrating and decimating that Kafkaesque Castle that we have been carrying since our youth is of primary urgency...
Those stone walls are crumbling and becoming transparent...we are past the turning point.

Anno
3rd August 2011, 00:45
I am sensing something going on that has more to do with generations than with individuals.[...]

I'm somewhere between the two. I can remember 4 TV channels and when they went off overnight and I can remember when I wanted to phone a friend I couldn't just pull out my mobile, I'd ask my mum and she'd say no, he only lives round the corner use your feet. None of my friends bothered with the internet until we were in our late teens/early twenties as there was a resistance as we'd seen each one of our friends who got it "The Internet" gradually vanished from our reality unless we went round to visit them.

Now when I talk to kids who have grown up with instant access to any information, most of which is bull****, instant communication with whoever is their current 'friend', I really feel sorry for them. They have no concept of how to think for themselves and if you show them a book they think it's "old fashioned" and they just want instant access to a short form of information that has been edited by who knows. They don't care though.

If people of an 'older' generation have a fear of what the younger generation are doing and don't get involved, then how are they going to pass on their experience? TPTB know this which is why they change the music and words every few years.

The concept of Generation itself is pretty skewed now. For people 10 years younger than me, I come from a world that doesn't exist and I'm only half the age of some of the people on here. It's another part of the control system.

I'm reminded of the reason I decided I didn't like buddhism as a teenager. I saw some buddhist monks in a mountain top monastery spending as much of their time in a dark room in meditation. I thought, how can the point of incarnating in the world be to hide away from it? The alternative community can be like that sometimes with people who are really looking for an excuse to be scared of going out to mask the fact they just need to get a grip and sort their lives out like everyone else. This is why I'm so hostile to Fear Porn. It's the drug that keeps people glued to their screens who would otherwise be getting in the way of TPTB in the outside world.

We need to drop the fear and work together or we're just wasting eachother's energy and helping 'the others' through no-action.

silvervioletrubie
3rd August 2011, 05:56
Boy this discussion is awesome.
I have found this topic and many branches from it presented beautifully in William Gibsons fictional works.

When the internet and information highways become so matrixed that privacy is a word and no longer a concept of ones daily experience, then pattern recognition becomes an underlying fabric for knowledge and control in our society.

The thing about privacy is that privacy is just a way to hide the truth, if we all lose privacy do we really lose anything?

Are we really all that diverse of a race? I think not. Underneath all the privacy I believe we are all loving people looking to learn about ourselves.

The loss of privacy is not to say our lives would be ruined, it just changes the playing field for all the players. I would say we live in a version of that already, whether we like it or not.

Just food for thought and discussion!

Rocky_Shorz
3rd August 2011, 06:01
well once people realize they communicate with everyone around them without using computers, the worry about privacy will be over...

for now we have the advantage, they see what we type, we hear what they think...

and who is afraid? lol

silvervioletrubie
3rd August 2011, 06:15
:fans::dance3::crazy_pilot::rockon::pop2::hippie:: gossip:


you mean people are actually watching us?


The echos of your sarcastic humor are bouncing off the inside of my head, and it tickles!

silvervioletrubie
3rd August 2011, 06:31
well once people realize they communicate with everyone around them without using computers, the worry about privacy will be over...

for now we have the advantage, they see what we type, we hear what they think...

and who is afraid? lol

Nice.
So who benefits from all our hoarded privacy? Mmmmm

I say it is tptb. and it is them who are truly afraid, and that brings us farther down the rabbit hole!

Anno
3rd August 2011, 10:10
Nice.
So who benefits from all our hoarded privacy? Mmmmm

I say it is tptb. and it is them who are truly afraid, and that brings us farther down the rabbit hole!

I'm a bit split over this. I agree that if we weren't so secret we'd realise how similar we all really are. At the same time, what you're saying is similar to "If you have nothing to hide.."
I don't accept that because it implies that the only people who want privacy want it to hide something they shouldn't be doing.

I don't do anything that would be considered wrong by either the wider community or tptb but I still want privacy.

I think it comes down to what kind of data you're talking about. Let's say my bank statement got published online. It would be an invasion of privacy but really people would only be able to see what I spend my money on and that's not exactly interesting. It's mostly just food and books.

The people who have things to hide work outside the normal system to hide it which kind of defeats the purpose of 'spying' on normal people just in case one does something wrong.

In terms of this equation it only uses the public data we generate. I can't see any negative use for that data but in this thread you'll see the conversation already starting that it should be removed. The question is, would that be considered legal if a company did it?
Privacy laws only apply to Personaly Identifiable Data. Your username counts because you might use it elsewhere, as do any photos of yourself.
Outside of that, none of it counts as Personal from your post score to the thanks you give.

The only people who have anything to fear from this equation are people that are not in harmony because as I demonstrated with Charles, it can detect people who are up to something if the data is interpreted correctly.
The important thing is that some really high profile posters might look bad in the stats and there could be a genuine reason.

For example, if you added up all of the man hours users here put in to commenting on Bill's threads and thanking him, then told him he needs to repay the same amount to get a good score it wouldn't exactly be fair or may even possible. It is the same with users that don't post very often. Using Phi to boost their age helps them a bit but they end up with a lower Force than people who have worse Karma than them, simply because they don't post much.

Data on its own is harmless, it's how the data is interpreted that is 'dangerous' but as it is out in the open, people can do the math themselves.

Rocky_Shorz
3rd August 2011, 14:51
well once people realize they communicate with everyone around them without using computers, the worry about privacy will be over...

for now we have the advantage, they see what we type, we hear what they think...

and who is afraid? lol

Nice.
So who benefits from all our hoarded privacy? Mmmmm

I say it is tptb. and it is them who are truly afraid, and that brings us farther down the rabbit hole!


Imagine when they peeked down the rabbit hole and found a few thousand of us partying...

ulli
3rd August 2011, 15:03
Anno
Been thinking about this and came to the conclusion that the picture is always a bit bigger when there are life and death issues.
If some microbiologist were to come here incognito, in order to publish some earthchanging discoveries
that would help humanity out of its mess and the ptb don't want to see out in the open
the last thing on such a person's mind is someone doing Dharma Karma statistics on their membership behavior here.
And we must not forget that this is one of the few platforms where something like that can be done.
Just wanted to bring the thought to your attention.

Darla Ken Pearce
3rd August 2011, 17:04
Anno is not talking about moderating anything on Avalon, he is talking about an enhancement that uses our own input to help us assess our own words, actions, and contributions. More than anything this is about self-realization and just another tool at that. We are in the process of remembering and becoming the Masters we once were and as we learn through all the processes of trial and error and as humans ~ let's face it, we blunder along in our own time and space. Yet, here is an opportunity to self-assess and correct ourselves that hasn't been available before this day.

If we have a problem with our Dharma or let's say humility ~ let's think about this not in light of others opinion but our own new assessment provided we are interested and care enough to see this. We are great at realigning ourselves once weaknesses are brought to our attention! If we are not concerned about it, who cares anyway?

The greatest value is in our own opinion and knowledge of ourselves. As far as keeping things secret, this the old matrix of fear coming to light here right now. Not realizing that all manifestations of FEAR are what is suspect ~ not new ideas or ways of being better. Define better? This is up to each of us. A tool and if the tool is faulty, we can readjust it. To see ourselves better is a good thing for us. It won't benefit anyone else and we also can ignore it. No harm, no foul. New way of thinking about things but new thinking is required to get out of the fear matrix! Or do you like it here that much?

Well, the human body although many of us have forgotten it, is self-correcting, self-modifying, even self-healing. Any tools that can help us readjust, become kinder, gentler, maybe more open instead of living in this very closed and secret system ~ well, this is a blessing.

No one has to know your score and shouldn't care. It is to benefit YOU and no one else. What if the CIA is here and taking notes? Too funny, who cares! Like any information will help save their faulty thought forms. We can only control ourselves, although TPTW believe otherwise all those closed systems have failed. A new openness is required to go forth into the light of a new day and it's time is ripe now.

In truth, nothing is a secret! It's like keeping a secret from your own heart ~ not possible. We are the true judges of ourselves and no one else. Worry about your own judge inside your heart ~ not the other ones outside yourself, those are an illusion.

Act accordingly but do not be afraid ~ as all is known. We each live within our own hologram, no one else creates it for us. Just ours. Let see ourselves using better lenses and know all that we are and can become. This is a tool to think differently.

This old fear matrix is like a broken record but one that is familiar and people tend to hum it without noticing they are doing it. Yet, the time is upon us to change ourselves first, then it will manifest in the world at large. Avalon is a great forum and innovative platform for a new insight matrix and should be open, if we are not to be left outside the dark matrix as usual. As humans, all the old limitations are gone, we are free to create something bright and new if only we have the courage to do it. This is a wonderful start if only you can see it. Change your thinking, change the world.

Those who do little "thanking" in general or give thanks and caring in PM's instead of "thanks" an adjust could be made, if you feel your version of gratitude/humility is not being considered. All is open to change and adjustments. These might take into consideration, messages on profile pages or some other way to add and count other forms "thanking" that may be happening and add it to the equation. If you don't participate and help find flaws, your input cannot be counted. Do TPTW consult you?

On the other hand, maybe you never thought "Thanks" was all that important. Maybe you don't need any thanks yourself. Tough guy or gal, yes? Not using the same gauges you use in your daily life. This could rankle, yes? How much of an adjustment might it be for your own good, to be a more thankful person in general?

Gosh, what if it was catching like a sweet virus and you accidentally spread it from Avalon to your own wife and family? Gosh, what if happiness suddenly overtook you from out of nowhere just because of a slight change in how you perceive things and begin to be grateful for small favors, small things. Pretty rotten, eh? Can't handle happiness me thinks and yes, maybe it's asking too much of you to change in incremental ways instead of major shifts. It's a choice but one that could make your life a lot easier. Believe in miracles and you get them. Or you can stay in a tiny little box for another 13 million go rounds. As for me, I will gladly change anything needed.

What really do you have to lose but old patterns and ways of thinking? Understand that virtually all you know now, will be swept away in new powers and ways of viewing the world very unlike anything we know now or even see coming. Let us begin now to be the change, we are looking for ~ got to start somewhere and this is a new and bright idea of Anno we should find easy to support. Participate and show support? Yes, it's a choice.

These kinds of changes must come to sweep us out of this dark matrix, so we can move ahead and create something better than what we have now.

Granted, we can all use some brownie point system or financial system ~ to restore order, new values, that enhance our own meter and merit system. Still, there is such resistance. Is it because you favor the dark system of credit and values that is falling? Think about this carefully.

What would happen if instead of stealing resources and getting paid for it as currently exists as a merit system of credit and debt, what if a whole new value system arose from Anno's idea where people had gold coins drop into their bank account for kindness and humility instead. What did you say, HEAVEN FORBID? No, I think not, sweetie. You might want to reconsider staying in the fear matrix or moving into a whole new financial system build upon love instead. Just listen to those gold coins!

In an open system, adjustments can be easily made ~ as they are coming from a heartlight center rather than personal agenda. Okay, we are not used to such things yet. Not enough experience in openness, right? There is a great difference in motivation. One is of the light and open, it is flexible and open to change that benefits others and doing so, benefits all of us as a collective. We already know about the dark and have plumbed the depths of the fear matrix. Like it enough to stay put? Not!

Let us always be looking to improve on ways in which we can uplift ourselves and others. Let no opportunity to enhance our different ways of being ~ go away without due consideration and open thought. This is how we get to the New Golden Age from here and these are the first real baby steps in getting there. So the question, once again is: Are you ready? Much love! xoxox

Paul
3rd August 2011, 17:53
Anno is not talking about moderating anything on Avalon, he is talking about an enhancement that uses our own input to help us assess our own words, actions, and contributions.
Well, he did make passing reference to moderating on Avalon, in his thread title and first post. My initial purpose in entering this thread was to assure members that this would not happen, in so far as I had any say in the matter.

However, I suspect the primary distinction between your perspective on this and mine, Darla, is that you're coming at this from awareness of human interactions and I am coming at this as a computer nerd ;).

The words that Anno chose to label his metrics have important meanings, yes. But the underlying mechanisms that compute those metrics are too simple to be useful and (based on my over 30 years in the business) will always be either (1) too simple to be useful, or (2) too subtle to be trustworthy by all but (perhaps) a few wizards.

A day ago, I had decided it would be better if I did not respond further on this thread. But your comments seemed worthy of response. I respect what you say (though, being of a different nature and experience, I am sure I only partially understand what you say :).)

Others may find the metrics useful (I am certainly not the final word on what's useful) and Anno is welcome to continue to provide his metrics to whomever is interested.

Darla Ken Pearce
3rd August 2011, 17:55
As always, Paul, you are one of the great assets on Avalon and did I mention that I love you? xoxoxox

ulli
3rd August 2011, 18:07
I recall a time here when my Thanks button was just 30 points short of the received thanks number...
somewhere around 1300 mark, I think.
Being a balance nut as well as a self discovery nut I was toying with an idea similar to what Anno has presented.
I have been on quite a few forums, but none had these stats that we have here, so I admit being fascinated, too,
and wondering how these stats could be applied to give one feedback about one's perception/expression ratio.
I'm all for a little experimentation, as long as it's benefits outweigh potential harm.

Anno
3rd August 2011, 23:21
[...]The words that Anno chose to label his metrics have important meanings, yes. But the underlying mechanisms that compute those metrics are too simple to be useful [...]

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius -- and a lot of courage -- to move in the opposite direction." - Albert Einstein


Anno is not talking about moderating anything on Avalon, he is talking about an enhancement that uses our own input to help us assess our own words, actions, and contributions. More than anything this is about self-realization and just another tool at that. We are in the process of remembering and becoming the Masters we once were and as we learn through all the processes of trial and error and as humans ~ let's face it, we blunder along in our own time and space. Yet, here is an opportunity to self-assess and correct ourselves that hasn't been available before this day.
[...]

I'm glad someone gets it Darla!

And I'm glad both you and Ulli are already thinking about how to improve it. The first version was made using the info available and the interactions I could see. I don't know about it becoming a new economic system, although Anno is just as good as Euro or Amero.

If you can see an interaction and you can find a way to measure it using data then you can add it in to the equation and the more people that do, the closer the result will get to an accurate measure. If and how people choose to use it is completely up to them.

The PM counting would definitely add to a person's dharma but how would you calculate humility? There's no way I can see to measure if the pm added value or if it was just spam. The only way I can think of is too intrusive and would have to scan the words used for words on Positive/Negative lists like Love or Hate. It's a bit too far I think.

You could use the Positive/Negative word count to look at public posts though. We've all seen those pictures of the ice crystals being affected by words of love and hate but do we think about how long we spend here looking at such words? If I can see that a particular user uses words on the Negative list 70% more than the words on the Positive list then that would be very useful as both a self improvement tool and as a miner's canary when I'm around negative people.

ViralSpiral
4th August 2011, 05:45
Hi Anno, I have been following/observing this thread with great interest, living in two camps:

01. Old paradigm/ignorance/paranoia
02. Wanting to see change, and being it

I see light through the cracks however, whilst knowing where my weaknesses lie may be helpful, I would also need relevant guidance/tools to implement change. e.g. knowing that I am bad at pure science and then going to the applied science class....


Aaaaaanyhoo, this all verrrry interesting. I thank you for pursuing this, as well as all the other proficient participants in this thread, and in light of "observation & learning" I would be happy for you to let me know what needs fine-tuning.


:)

Anno
4th August 2011, 13:44
[...]
I see light through the cracks however, whilst knowing where my weaknesses lie may be helpful, I would also need relevant guidance/tools to implement change. e.g. knowing that I am bad at pure science and then going to the applied science class....
[...]

I would disagree slightly. I have a new book in my 'to read' pile that looks at the theory that the ancients were advanced because they used a different type of knowledge based on intuition and harmony with nature. This is symbolised as Lunar Knowledge, Moon Gods/Godesses, The White Lady etc. In our age we use Solar Knowledge which is about facts, data, science, logic, materialism and existentialism. Jehova/God and such symbols represent this, as does Gold and Money.

If your head doesn't like science then looking at a more pure science may not be the best idea. Perhaps it would be better to look at philosophy and theoretical science? You could be more Lunar than Solar.



Aaaaaanyhoo, this all verrrry interesting. I thank you for pursuing this, as well as all the other proficient participants in this thread, and in light of "observation & learning" I would be happy for you to let me know what needs fine-tuning. :)


The funny thing is, the people brave enough to post and bring up their reservations are the people with the highest scores so they kind of prove that the equation is working.

You are doing really well with a Force of 164. There are two factors holding you back. One is your humility, which, at only just below average is still better than most people on here. More thanking would help you out. The main thing is to think about how you post. Just under half your posts don't get thanked. Why this is I can't tell but if you increased that percentage and your humility you'd be a high scorer as your Karma is only just below average which is caused by the above. Be more mindful and give thanks where you get them. =]

ulli
4th August 2011, 14:06
@ViralSpiral and Anno
I think Viral is so mindful, as in full mind, that she does not concern herself with the people and relationship aspect that comes with a forum...and quite rightly so... if one is philosophically inclined why should people get in the way of ideas?

I find myself in the same boat at times, remembering the thank you button Only because I have that ingrained fascination with statistics...a Capricorn thing.
My hope is that the world becomes a safer place with no evil government agencies, no error justice system and no loony psycho nuts, so then my latent social abilities can begin to kick in. Where there are no people to fear then all that is left is people to enjoy. Not a bad vision for my utopian wish list.
When nano technology gets really going I will not press a thank you button but instead send a plate with a real Schwarzwaelder Kirsch tart as a thank you...

Then the forum can become a Viennese coffee house, like my maternal ancestors had, and which is the highest platform philosophical discussion groups can attain.

If Anno gets this idea off the ground I will send him a beer as well.

ViralSpiral
4th August 2011, 14:14
Be more mindful and give thanks where you get them. =]

in which case......Thanks ;)

silvervioletrubie
4th August 2011, 22:42
well once people realize they communicate with everyone around them without using computers, the worry about privacy will be over...

for now we have the advantage, they see what we type, we hear what they think...

and who is afraid? lol

Nice.
So who benefits from all our hoarded privacy? Mmmmm

I say it is tptb. and it is them who are truly afraid, and that brings us farther down the rabbit hole!


Imagine when they peeked down the rabbit hole and found a few thousand of us partying...

Cheers my friend!

silvervioletrubie
4th August 2011, 23:25
Nice.
So who benefits from all our hoarded privacy? Mmmmm

I say it is tptb. and it is them who are truly afraid, and that brings us farther down the rabbit hole!

I'm a bit split over this. I agree that if we weren't so secret we'd realise how similar we all really are. At the same time, what you're saying is similar to "If you have nothing to hide.."
I don't accept that because it implies that the only people who want privacy want it to hide something they shouldn't be doing.

I don't do anything that would be considered wrong by either the wider community or tptb but I still want privacy................


Data on its own is harmless, it's how the data is interpreted that is 'dangerous' .....


I hear you Anno.
For me there are two ways to think about, one way is kind of metaphysical, one way is kind of pragmatic.

Pragmatically speaking, I would vote to limit any information of mine being used to recognize patterns etc. because it might lead down the slippery slope into an Orwellian world, gotta be careful right? The benefit would need to be clear for me as an individual, not only for my individual being today, but for my potential individual existence tomorrow as well. It would be a shame to be viewed as not helpful to my community, if I was expressing myself in away that tipped the equation, but did not reflect my true intent,... or to be subversively "pushed" into a series of interactions so that my "number" was appropriately situated within the limits of what is acceptable in the community (i.e. equation)...do I lose individuality?, do I lose free will?

Perhaps we could just pass judgment on ourselves and our community members by interpreting the communications we all take part in, without intermediate equations. THAT being said, I am really not that paranoid, because I have nothing to hide (from my perspective) and would like to see your equation utilized just for kicks and giggles,.... my nerd brain thinks that the equation idea is kinda cool, while I still think an equation becomes some kind of marker for judgement to be passed, and therefore a potential tool to be used to control people.

Metaphysically speaking, privacy is an ego thing, and really is only a concept for us, but not the universe....is the bottom of the ocean private, yes, but only because we don't actually see it. Privacy is completely a human perspective, and a perspective we generate outwards about other humans and what we think they know or don't know about us. (you think your midnight ice cream binge is private....but that is only because you don't see or know that the neighbor is busy watching you while he eats his ice cream :)) Do we keep things private from "GOD" or the "ALL", or whatever........

So our spirit, unencumbered with this human form doesn't really "have" any privacy, and that is just fine.


Regardless of my opinion, I thank all of you who are participating (even by just reading and thinking about it). This is a great discussion of very relevant ideas and concepts.

And Anno, I think your equation is neat and may serve a greater purpose, or not. If it has potential to be positive, then we should at least check it out (like many forum members have pointed out), even if it ends up being solely for entertainment. Either way, thanks for bringing it up!

ViralSpiral
5th August 2011, 07:15
Hi there Silvervioletrubie (that's some gem :))

Really resonated with your post, and agree with Ulli's assessment. I am less curious about what others think of me, than finding out how I can grow and expand greater consciousness.

If I am hiding something from God, then who am I?

I have a naturally "anti-authoritarian" nature hence my questioning/paranoia. Compliance is not my aim, but change....

Am working on the humility thang, but waiting to hear why my Karmic tricycle still has "fairy wheels" ;)

Dawn
5th August 2011, 07:55
I've used a SCIO EPFX computer biofeedback machine for years. This is an AI and has provided some surprises for me. The most interesting one is that it corrected my auto-agressive immune response to all things electrical. I used to burn out electrical circuits in buildings when I was angry. I also fried a number of computer motherboards within a week or 2 of getting a new computer. My SCIO corrected all of this and calmed my body down. Now electronic and computerized equipment is not a problem for me, and I don't blow electrical fuses any more. So, based on this experience, I am curious to see the AI tried in a forum setting with human moderators to back it up. How well it does depends on the consciousness that created it in the first place. One more thing that comes under the category of 'wo-wo', I remember more than a couple of lifetimes where my consciousness was inside an AI and it was my 'body'. It was very similar to having a human body and brain, except that the interactions I had with others was not through the 5 senses I use now. So, I am interested to see you try this system.

silvervioletrubie
5th August 2011, 19:10
"If I am hiding something from God, then who am I?"

Talk about a gem! :)

Hi ViralSpiral,

I agree and am also most interested in growing and expanding my consciousness, and willing to (and do) use technology to help my journey. If you haven't tried a Flanagan Neurophone, it is well worth it! And on that note,.... any tools we can find to help us move forward internally are great.

Like The Abundant Traveler attests to, AI technology can be a great help in the right situation.
"How well it does depends on the consciousness that created it in the first place."

Most exciting to me is discussing and sharing these concepts/ideas and perhaps results with articulate and conscious individuals! Saludos!

Anno
5th August 2011, 19:21
@ViralSpiral and Anno
I think Viral is so mindful, as in full mind, that she does not concern herself with the people and relationship aspect that comes with a forum...and quite rightly so... if one is philosophically inclined why should people get in the way of ideas?
[...]
If Anno gets this idea off the ground I will send him a beer as well.

That's why we would always need human Mods with experience of the person and the ability to read their posts. I'm sure you're familiar with the kind of Astrology/Numerology packages where you type in your customers numbers then read from pre-written passages like you know what you're talking about. Without the real deal interpreting the data the info isn't that valuable. And the real deal would probably always want to do it by hand anyway, keeping the tech simple like calculators. As you proved by interpreting ViralSpiral's numbers! And I'll hold you to that beer, ty =]



[...] or to be subversively "pushed" into a series of interactions so that my "number" was appropriately situated within the limits of what is acceptable in the community (i.e. equation) [...]


That's a very important point. And what if you were influenced to situate yourself within limits that make you harmful? Would that allow people to test your pliability or suggestibility remotely using forums? That line of thought gets scary fast. But you do still have free will. You can choose to say no and remember that it's just an internet forum. If your internet or power got cut off it wouldn't exist anymore.


[...]THAT being said, I am really not that paranoid, because I have nothing to hide (from my perspective) and would like to see your equation utilized just for kicks and giggles,....[...]

Is that you volunteering?



Metaphysically speaking, privacy is an ego thing, and really is only a concept for us, but not the universe....is the bottom of the ocean private, yes, but only because we don't actually see it. [...]


I knew a guy in school who never masturbated because "God can see". He went bald a while before he was 30.


[...]waiting to hear why my Karmic tricycle still has "fairy wheels" ;)

Because people like you. It doesn't really matter how much you contribute or how often people like it, aslong as people do then those likes are measured and incorporated. More detail in PM.


I've used a SCIO EPFX computer biofeedback machine for years. This is an AI and has provided some surprises for me. The most interesting one is that it corrected my auto-agressive immune response to all things electrical. I used to burn out electrical circuits in buildings when I was angry. I also fried a number of computer motherboards within a week or 2 of getting a new computer. My SCIO corrected all of this and calmed my body down. Now electronic and computerized equipment is not a problem for me, and I don't blow electrical fuses any more. So, based on this experience, I am curious to see the AI tried in a forum setting with human moderators to back it up. How well it does depends on the consciousness that created it in the first place. One more thing that comes under the category of 'wo-wo', I remember more than a couple of lifetimes where my consciousness was inside an AI and it was my 'body'. It was very similar to having a human body and brain, except that the interactions I had with others was not through the 5 senses I use now. So, I am interested to see you try this system.

So many questions. Do you have a thread where you go in to this in more detail? I'm wondering about the reasons given by the mainstream for your appliance destroying powers and how the device works. Surely if 'they' don't like it, 'we' would find a use for it. Perhaps even learn to develop it like any other of the 'gifts' some of us are tolerated to use and talk about.

As a secondary, I don't like the idea of Transhumanism. I think the more technical we get, the less independent we get, so our high technology makes us more and more disabled. Transhumanism is the peak of that way of thinking. And yet, without it and things like pacemakers, many of us would not be here, or here with a severely restricted life. How far would you go in terms of devices and are there any 'weird' side effects of having a device like that?

ViralSpiral
6th August 2011, 08:26
Metaphysically speaking, privacy is an ego thing, and really is only a concept for us, but not the universe....is the bottom of the ocean private, yes, but only because we don't actually see it. [...]


I knew a guy in school who never masturbated because "God can see". He went bald a while before he was 30.




Bleedin' 'ell.....!!! ;)




Thanks for the PM :)

p.s. been on a thanking spree ( I jest )

silvervioletrubie
8th August 2011, 05:27
Anno,
If you would like to send me the equation, with a brief description, I would certainly be interested in seeing what algorithm you developed. In particular the level of data entered, and the applicability of the resultant value or values. If your A I was capable of processing users topic history combined with other data, a picture of the Avalon communities collective "mind" might emerge. Which could arguably be the mind of human inquisitive intelligence. Really. That would be to cool to see.

Paul
8th August 2011, 05:54
Anno,
If you would like to send me the equation, with a brief description, I would certainly be interested in seeing what algorithm you developed.
See Post #57 (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?26522-AI-Moderators&p=275691&viewfull=1#post275691) and Post #58 (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?26522-AI-Moderators&p=275696&viewfull=1#post275696), above.

ViralSpiral
8th August 2011, 06:01
Anno is on holiday.......?

silvervioletrubie
8th August 2011, 23:00
Anno,
If you would like to send me the equation, with a brief description, I would certainly be interested in seeing what algorithm you developed.
See Post #57 (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?26522-AI-Moderators&p=275691&viewfull=1#post275691) and Post #58 (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?26522-AI-Moderators&p=275696&viewfull=1#post275696), above.

Thanks Paul,

I would have waited for a long time in my ignorance........

After viewing the equation input data I would have no problem with calculating a FORCE number for myself, personally I don't have an interest in the number obtained, but anyone is free to calculate my number (with or without my permission,.... really).

It would be interesting to see how the FORCE number would correlate with number of interactions per topic, and what type of topic interaction ratios relate to what type of FORCE number? Then we should be able to see characteristics of types of personalities? That would then be the beginning of pattern recognition. IMHO