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Omni connexae!
12th October 2011, 01:05
Hey all,

I'm starting this thread to hopefully get a good conversation going regaurding the Occupy Movement. I'm sure many of you will disagree with my own thoughts, and would like to hear why if so. All of your opinions and views are welcome - let it be heard. I'm sure this topic strikes a chord within all of us at Avalon!

Don't construe anything I'm about to say to mean that I'm not happy to see the protests, I think it is great. But, a few things worry me about this situation.

There is no focus, no real common ideal. Rather they have all identified fairly similar problems.

However, as I gather, alot of those protesting at the moment have a 'tear it all down' sort of attitute. 'It' being the economy and the system, etc.

(But there is clearly no consensus at this point, what we think the collective goals are, at this point, will largely depend on what media we choose to listen to, our own persoal experience and what our own personal opinions are in general, since there is a lot of room for interpretation at this point)

Why I find that worrying? Well, if there is no common ideal or focus yet, then there is no way to really appease this movement yet.

Therefore: this will either:

1. Fizzle out till a later date, (we don't want that?)

or

2. End up in mass civil unrest. (we don't want that?)


I don't see this truly fizzling out any time soon. Do you?

I, personally, see this going global before that ever happens. Anyway, time will tell in that respect.

I also don't agree that this is an "unorganized, spontaneous, grassroots" thing, either. This has been carefully planned - Just, not by those protesting!

Ironically, I'd say the '1%' has more to do with these protests happening than the '99%' ever did at a planning level. This may be the voice of a generation, but is it really our voice? Anyway, cynical tinfoil hat aside!...

The greatest problem here, I think, is that a whole generation has practically lost faith in their own countries ideals. Young people are loosing faith in the free world and everything it stands for. When I read into things like subversion, one has to ask myself, what is really happening here?

There's a war that the western world has forgotten to fight right! The information war. The propaganda war...

We in the west have troops in the middle east. Yet in London, kids are attacking their very own communities. I don't see why we wont be seeing the same in America soon.

More and more, people are being turned against the very ideals that made the free world what it is. It's mostly done in an emotional fashion, NOT a rational one. But it's subtle, very subtle... remember, the worst lie is a half truth.

We must consider both sides of the western coin here, not to mention the other coins, or nations, in this world...

RT news loves telling us how the big bad USA have done this, and the big bad USA have done that, and we love linking their videos, don't we? In fact one finds it hard to even find a story where they don't say something anti-american/anti-western.

A few months ago, I would say we in the west needed to stop using propaganda, we need to educate. But, realistically, that's not going to happen just yet, as far as I am aware, no civilization in history has yet to operate without a propaganda machine. It is, what it is.

I know one thing, I'd take American propaganda over Russian any day of the week!

That Fox presenter got booed off the stage at OWS... now ask yourself: would an RT presenter have been booed off? FOOD FOR THOUGHT.

Perhaps we should occupy a library, maybe the history section...

We can talk all day about the economic problems and solutions. But we must be real for a second, and realize the actual situation at hand here, the types of real oppertunities it opens for different groups and movements that we may not feel so sypathetic with, if true civil unrest takes hand.

The west has problems, yeah, ofcourse we have problems! Every country has problems!

But damnit, people need faith in the free world, especially in times like these! It's almost like people are beginning to be ashamed of being from the 'west', sweeping generalizations are flawed, but we must honestly admit the breakdown, to some extent atleast, of patriotism and national pride in our younger generations.

Egypt is screaming for political Democracy - many Americans are now screaming for something slanting towards economic Socialism (Let's be real now). People are screaming all over the world!

But will both said countries get what they really want, in the end of this? Really?

Or will they both end up with the same, new, system? Whatever it may be? If so, one should really question, how the ins and outs of the opinions of the people protesting, really matter in the end of this.

I see real change coming, and we are collectively helping to bring it on. But, will it be the change we all really want?

Unified Serenity
12th October 2011, 02:11
This is an awesome post Omni. I had actually just written a response going into what I saw as the cause of many of our problems that have taken years to come to fruition. I see the problem, crisis, solution aspect and wrote a long post, but I just deleted it because from what I have read on here in the "Occupy" threads seems to be that the majority here think this is a grass roots people's movement and I as well as a few others do not. Then I saw your post, and I think you made many salient points. I'll share a bit of what I had written.

There has been a movement in America since the 1920's that is anti-capitalism and pro-socialism/communism. Look at the 10 planks of communism and see if they have not been accomplished in America. Recently, America has taken on a Fascism of Government controlling Corporations and most definately of Crony Capitalism that benefits a few large Corporations and let's the little guy who is trying to compete in a free market system face a daunting task whether it's trying to get city bid contracts and they are fighting against another corporation that get's special allowances for whatever reason, and thus though they may have the lowest bid, they lose to another business because they meet this regulation or that regulation. Compound that nationally with companies who can't compete with other companies that don't have to deal with our American regulations or Corporate tax structures and when those corporations find a way to "even" the playing field by leaving the country the jobs go to foreigners and they make huge profits and don't pay taxes because of some other loophole they helped get enacted in Congress. So, our jobs have disappeared, we are suffering economically, and the very people who helped enact these rules are now blaming the business community. So, they destroy the business community and now they complain because of a lack of jobs.

The housing bubble was created because of liberal politicians demanding Fannie Mae and Freddy Mac make loans for people with low incomes who couldn't qualify otherwise. The banks wanted to compete and they jumped in and then we see the outcome of many people getting home loans they cannot afford, and us bailing them out. The housing market is in a tailspin and we gave the banks money and now they have no incentive to work at helping people stay in their homes. The banks gambled and lost and yet they didn't suffer. If I go to Vegas and gamble no one bails me out. If I start a business like so many do every day and it fails no one bails me or them out, but these big boys do it on a colosal scale and we bail them out, LET THEM FAIL, but they held us hostage in Congress and said we would go into some financial freefall if we didn't bail them out. Now, we have spent trillions and much went to foreign banks and is our situation any better? "OH, but it's Wall Street's fault!"

I imagine years ago those who hated American exceptionalism and free markets competition said, "How do we tear it down?" Then they said, take control of the markets, set them up, get the population more and more dependent on Government and when it's ripe for destabalizing we yank the rug out and they will cry for "Change"... Oh yes, "Hope and Change" "Change you can believe in"! Yeh, I've seen it played out around the world and there is change alright. They want freedom in Egypt? They want democracy in these countries? Watch what mob gains control and see how free they are. See how free we are in a year or two.

The problem is we do need change. We do want to get rid of the elite control, but what I see down there and read about who is setting up the meetings, who is funding the people down there, supplying food and sleeping bags and tents makes me see that this is not the change which I want. I do not like what happens under Socialistic elitism. There are always some who are more equal than others. We need to end Crony Capitalism and Corporate welfare. We need to end Congressional pensions and the revolving doors between the banks and our political system. We need to end the Fed, and we need to end generational welfare. We need to end the ability of politicians to leave office only to become lobbyists or back to some Corporation that benefits greatly from Government contracts (Industrial Military Complex) or their direct family members. We need to end this filthy greed that has destroyed American idealism and fair play. There is so many more ways to work to help this to happen, but I seriously doubt we will see anything like what I want.

America has the ability to truly provide for OUR citizens to have the best education, to have great healthcare, and be prosperous, but we have been shackled and too many of us are slaves to the government and dependent in some fashion. Those very citizens are afraid of losing that "support' and stand together in a free market economy because the deck is so stacked against us. Hell, just look at how the IRS is sent against any business that isn't playing the corrupt games. Or a company like Gibson who has their wood confiscated while another company that gave support to Obama did not have their's confiscated. There are so many stories to see how the power of government is used to force compliance. We are ripe for this systemic take down, and trust me, they have a solution they can't wait to present to us which we will be so happy to accept only to realize later we are more enslaved than we ever were before.

GCS1103
12th October 2011, 02:44
I believe that what is happening here in NYC was initially a relatively small grass roots protest that has been co-opted by certain factions who play on the misery of many people here. The early reports stated there were a couple of hundred protesters organized over Facebook and Twitter to descend on Wall Street. Initial interviews by the media of those protestors showed the lack of focus and the incoherency of their message. They were angry, but offered no solutions or concrete demands.

When they received substantial media attention they were then co-opted by labor unions and Soros-backed groups. Their numbers consequently soared to thousands. In no way can this be considered a grass roots movement since it has been used by groups that have a specific agenda which does not necessarily coincide with the original protestors sentiments. In fact, the original protestors had much in common with many of the grievances of the Tea Party.

I agree with the USA Today article that the movement will fizzle out without a leader communicating a coherent message and specific redress sought. Legitimate movements, in the past, have always had a specific goal in mind, i.e. Women's Rights,. Civil Rights, Anti Vietnam War, etc. Not so here. There are numerous complaints and demands with no serious or realistic way to address them. Throw out capitalism and replace it with what??? Without a clear focus and alternative solution, when the anger and emotion fades, so will the "movement". Just my opinion.

Davidallany
12th October 2011, 02:52
If there is something major about to occur, those who are in power won't care about current events, since chaos is inevitable anyway. This is one way of seeing current events and why the governments around the world are not doing much other than looting and shooting, as though they're having a last party.

Pete
12th October 2011, 03:16
Thank you for this thread, i have heard intelligent and informed views and it seems to me that this is exactly what has been going on. The action is being manipulated by the powers that be (were). however, lets consider the movement a thread and some joker comes along and hijacks it.

We have watched from a perspective that is completely different to the majority of people. They have no knowledge or understanding of the mechanics and intent of these factions and also there is no news of some of the more esoteric factions we are led to believe are making themselves felt, cutting off and cornering the beast.

Friends you must surely recognise that your understanding and willingness to discuss this problem is your wake up call, we have to be the hijackers.

Mulder
12th October 2011, 03:33
Hey all,

Therefore: this will either:

1. Fizzle out till a later date, (we don't want that?)

or

2. End up in mass civil unrest. (we don't want that?)


I don't see this truly fizzling out any time soon. Do you?

I, personally, see this going global before that ever happens. Anyway, time will tell in that respect.

I also don't agree that this is an "unorganized, spontaneous, grassroots" thing, either. This has been carefully planned - Just, not by those protesting!


The greatest problem here, I think, is that a whole generation has practically lost faith in their own countries ideals. Young people are loosing faith in the free world and everything it stands for. When I read into things like subversion, one has to ask myself, what is really happening here?

There's a war that the western world has forgotten to fight right! The information war. The propaganda war...

We in the west have troops in the middle east. Yet in London, kids are attacking their very own communities. I don't see why we wont be seeing the same in America soon.

More and more, people are being turned against the very ideals that made the free world what it is. It's mostly done in an emotional fashion, NOT a rational one. But it's subtle, very subtle... remember, the worst lie is a half truth.

We must consider both sides of the western coin here, not to mention the other coins, or nations, in this world...

RT news loves telling us how the big bad USA have done this, and the big bad USA have done that, and we love linking their videos, don't we? In fact one finds it hard to even find a story where they don't say something anti-american/anti-western.

A few months ago, I would say we in the west needed to stop using propaganda, we need to educate. But, realistically, that's not going to happen just yet, as far as I am aware, no civilization in history has yet to operate without a propaganda machine. It is, what it is.

I know one thing, I'd take American propaganda over Russian any day of the week!

That Fox presenter got booed off the stage at OWS... now ask yourself: would an RT presenter have been booed off? FOOD FOR THOUGHT.

Perhaps we should occupy a library, maybe the history section...

We can talk all day about the economic problems and solutions. But we must be real for a second, and realize the actual situation at hand here, the types of real oppertunities it opens for different groups and movements that we may not feel so sypathetic with, if true civil unrest takes hand.

The west has problems, yeah, ofcourse we have problems! Every country has problems!

But damnit, people need faith in the free world, especially in times like these! It's almost like people are beginning to be ashamed of being from the 'west', sweeping generalizations are flawed, but we must honestly admit the breakdown, to some extent atleast, of patriotism and national pride in our younger generations.

Egypt is screaming for political Democracy - many Americans are now screaming for something slanting towards economic Socialism (Let's be real now). People are screaming all over the world!


I see real change coming, and we are collectively helping to bring it on. But, will it be the change we all really want?

There are more options than (1) or (2) - like no change will come from it. I really think the masses won't wake up until its too late - like the mass of people in the USSR or East Germany refused to think their Govt was bad, until the day the Berlin Wall went up (in East Germany) and Police shot citizens in the back as they ran across it. That day every citizen "knew" their Govt was bad, but it was too late to leave the country then and too late to do much to protest their Govt. I'm sure this scenario will play out in every Western country sometime the next decade.

Unified Serenity
12th October 2011, 05:12
I just saw this video, and it shows the kind of spirit displayed by those in the "Occupy" movement when tea party types share their feelings at the demostrations:

DnGcUnoNa5Q

Pete
12th October 2011, 06:57
:cool2:Those guys are good:cool:
you got to give them credit
but also remember its their home turf!


question;

Would it be fair to say that most of the people participating or viewing this forum recognise the political and esoteric dimension to what is occurring at the moment?

If this is the case, it is also probably also true to say, that many of us believe the world is in a state of great flux and that we have a myriad of sensitive people telling us that the earth is evolving into a 5D reality.

Therefore, we should consider a 5D strategy.

As a way of illustration, if the tea party activists were simply ignored they would have nothing, they would just be a few more heads to be counted as part of the crowd.

Let's also consider the fact that the demonstration is in the city, their turf, their home ground. they have the home advantage. they are surrounded by the symbols of power, which enables them and subjugates the masses.

Then lets recognise the fact that the main financial centres of the world have been planned with the use of sacred geometry. Rome, Paris, New York, Washington and London. All of these centres have been designed using this knowledge.

London was raised by a fire that started 2-9-1666 and re-ignited 6-9-1666, notice anything about the dates, the area it cleared became the city of London, the financial centre of the world.

The use of sacred geometry is not by chance, it has been systematically used by architects throughout our history for a specific reason by a group of very intelligent people to exert control over the mass psyche.

see; http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=secrets+in+plain+sight&aq=3&oq=secrets+in+


I would also ask anyone that finds what I say of interest to look at the following thread;


http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?32339-Red-Ice-TV-Secret-Symbolism-in-Logos


I would be very interested to get your thoughts on how we could use the sacred geometry to our advantage.

Sacred geometry is a fact and its powerful stuff. Its how it's used that decides whether it is a force for evil or good.

The city centres are literally dripping with sacred geometry, can we access what is already there and use it to nullify its effect upon us? or even turn it back on to our oppressors.

161803398
12th October 2011, 07:21
no, I believe John Lash when he said they do all the numbers stuff because they are dumb.

christian
12th October 2011, 07:37
I haven't been at Wall Street. What I hear on Alex Jones, most people there are aware of the shadow government structures and want to abolish the FED and want to restore capitalism (free enterprise), which is long gone. They rightly understand, that we have corporatism (=fascism) right now, where major players in the finance-, business- and goverment-sector colluded to form monopolies. They understand that private central banks and their creatures aim at enslaving the population and they say 'we don't want that'. It's a call for simple and pure decency, it's voicing the intent abolish a corrupt system and replace it with a decent one. The socialist talking points come from the spin-doctors, as far as I can see. Surely TPTW intend to give this thing a twist, but I don't see them succeeding, from what I heard, the moveon.org people and other commies get booed and laughed at, people are getting wise to the game.

The common ideal seems very obvious to me. We are the 99%. We are in it together and only by working cooperatively we will achieve prosperity and peace. This doesn't mean socialism, it just means, be friendly and supportive towards one another.

161803398
12th October 2011, 07:55
Frankly, I don't understand the paranoia about socialism in America. I like the model that Norway has. People living on the street in dumpsters just isn't appealing to me but seems to be acceptable in America.

I do understand the entreprenuerial spirit is good; but it seems that people aren't able to control their greedy natures and their own egos.

This is something that needs to be dealt with somehow.

Can someone tell me what the paranoia about anything that sounds like "socialism" is about? Or is that what people have been taught to be paranoid about by the fat rats that have figured out how to steal all the cheese?

christian
12th October 2011, 08:14
it seems that people aren't able to control their greedy natures and their own egos.

This is something that needs to be dealt with somehow.

Some people are not able. That has to be dealt with, I agree. Not by tieing up their hands, but by the decent ones elevating themselves into a position, where they cannot be reached by the greedy ones - refusing to feed their greed, don't fall prey to them. Don't feed the private central banks, the greedy multinationals and all the rest of them. A New Paradigm where decent people work with and for decent people is what people in the Occupy Movement crave for, the way I see it. This demands personal responisibility from everyone, I like that.

We don't need yet another big institution that 'makes' people act modestly, the change has to occur first and foremost in the people's minds and hearts and I see a lot of movement there. People are truly understanding and internalizing that cooperation is better for us all than cheating, tricking, outsmarting and enslaving.

If this internal realization does not happen, any new system will be undermined again anyways.

4ekotwKRUAs

christian
12th October 2011, 09:45
Here is presented a lot of evidence of co-opt activities.

-hFlJ0jNLpw

But I think most of the people actually do have common sense and are open to the simple facts and are not eager to push yet another control & enslave sytem. It's the job of the people who can connect the simple dots to go there and tell the people, who want to listen.

daledo
12th October 2011, 11:36
This guy looks barely out of his teens but makes a great speech.

NGIn4OfQ1LI

risveglio
12th October 2011, 12:58
Frankly, I don't understand the paranoia about socialism in America. I like the model that Norway has. People living on the street in dumpsters just isn't appealing to me but seems to be acceptable in America.

I do understand the entreprenuerial spirit is good; but it seems that people aren't able to control their greedy natures and their own egos.

This is something that needs to be dealt with somehow.

Can someone tell me what the paranoia about anything that sounds like "socialism" is about? Or is that what people have been taught to be paranoid about by the fat rats that have figured out how to steal all the cheese?

In my opinion, socialism leads to lack of incentive and destroys prosperity and more importantly individual liberty. It also more often than not leads to oppression. Give this online book a read but I find socialism far more dangerous than capitalism. http://mises.org/books/socialism/contents.aspx

christian
12th October 2011, 18:05
In my opinion, socialism leads to lack of incentive and destroys prosperity and more importantly individual liberty. It also more often than not leads to oppression. Give this online book a read but I find socialism far more dangerous than capitalism. http://mises.org/books/socialism/contents.aspx

Anthony C. Sutton lays out in his book Wall Street and the Bolshevik Revolution (http://www.vho.org/aaargh/fran/livres10/SUTTONbolch.pdf) how the establishment of socialism in Russia has been financed by Wall Street. Wall Street pushed for socialism in the past, it's still the case today. People better learn their history.

161803398
13th October 2011, 03:06
I know the Iron rice bowl mentality. But I have never seen this way of thinking in a Norwegian person.

I just can't see anything wrong with people sharing the wealth of their country.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76VOnzXQMsU

I think that people like to fantacize a great deal about being totally free and they think they can do that with money. But they end up being slaves to this idea their entire lives. It reminds me of people who watch movies about the Royal Family in England on PBS and say they are reincarnated from King Tut. Or the myth about any child in America can become president. Or...LIfe Styles of the Rich and Famous....etc etc. People want to dream of this while, in fact, what is around them, is people living in dumpsters and, if they really hit reality, they will see that they are really slaves to the impossible dream....so they go out to the casino or play lotto. This is NOT freedom.

161803398
13th October 2011, 07:38
Anthony C. Sutton lays out in his book Wall Street and the Bolshevik Revolution how the establishment of socialism in Russia has been financed by Wall Street. Wall Street pushed for socialism in the past, it's still the case today. People better learn their history.

Wall street also helped Hitler. I think Wall street pushes for war anyway they can get it because its business. They'd turn you purple and me yellow if they thought they could get a buck out of a fight.

Richard S.
14th October 2011, 01:02
I'd like to know how many of you are going out on Saturday October 15th?

I am. I beleive we are the change, and for that we must act and do something.

onawah
14th October 2011, 01:05
We have a tiny Wall Street downtown in my town, only a few blocks long but well situated for a demonstration, and there will be townspeople out there celebrating and taking back their power, including me!

The corrupt system is dismantling itself. The more Light we ignite within ourselves, the more we support each other, the sooner it will crumble and fall. It doesn't have to be difficult. Ego likes to make everything difficult, because that makes it feel important. Light in itself is intelligent and knows what to do. We only have to listen to it.

Every time that people come together in Unity, in the spirit of Love and celebration, more Light is created. There is no greater solution.

Fred Steeves
14th October 2011, 01:37
http://mises.org/books/socialism/contents.aspx[/url]

I understand if this sounds negative, but trust me it's not, from my perspective anyway. I no longer even really consider myself an American, per say. I was born here, and speak the language, but whatever pride I once had in our system or culture is long gone my friends. America, the ideal of America anyway, is over. May she rest in peace.

Socialism, Capitolism, blah, blah, blah... I'm now quite bored with the whole lot. These are also ideas that should be let to rest in peace, just like the insidious concept drilled relentlessly into our heads that we need money to live on this planet that is more than capable of providing for all. As long as we are still discussing systems and "isms", the game remains hopelessly lost.

I don't begin to pretend to have any answers at the ready, save my knowing that we live in a universe of infinite possibility. This is the hand I'm betting the farm on. May be it winds up being a losing hand, but it's the one I was born to play.

Cheers,
Fred

etheric underground
14th October 2011, 03:48
Bring on occupy Perth. W.A tomorrow....
Come on aussies we need a good show, we
have C.H.O.G.M here shortly lets promote the 99%
that goes without