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jagman
16th November 2011, 05:12
I'm not going to lie, Its been rough! The past four days have been very disappointing!
The weather has been terrible for hunting! I also miss indoor plumbing. lol
I also really need a razor or who knows If the ladies like it I may keep it.( beard)
Also Being in the wilderness the past few days has recharged my batteries!

The wilderness is also very beautiful, And full of all kinds of life and yet sometimes
It can be so quiet you could hear a pin drop! I can feel my animalistic nature taking
hold! I think its a primal thing.
Anyway back to point,I have found the deer, And tomorrow at dawn my uncle will
probably take one!

STATIC
16th November 2011, 05:51
Jag... make a clean kill, and give thanks to the deer for laying down it's life. Also to Geia for the recharging of your batteries (Soul)

Good hunting

toothpick
16th November 2011, 06:48
Hi jagman.
Agree with you being in the wild can feel so primal.
It always seems to highten your senses, especially if you are alone.
I thought it was a very selfless act for you to put your own changing feelings on hunting aside and go help your uncle pack his winter meat home.
Cudos man, we could use alot more selflessness right now regardless of the circumstances.

anklebiter
16th November 2011, 19:24
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kVzqzcgNcBE&feature=related

crosby
16th November 2011, 22:17
anklebiter that was funny. i'm sure it wasn't at the time, but how often does one get to watch nature at its' best? i went hunting once. when i was 19. put on an orange pumpkin suit, climbed up into a tree house and froze my patooty off. never went again. just wasn't into sitting in the dark waiting for the sun to rise in 20 degree weather. maybe it's a guy thing.
good luck jagman.
regards, corson

Limor Wolf
16th November 2011, 23:03
Are you hungry?
Are you in a battle to survive?
Are you in any immidate need to be covered from the cold with animal's skin?
Are you being attacked?


"The wilderness is also very beautiful, And full of all kinds of life "

Tomorrow it will not be as full of life as it is today. and a few more deers will grieve the loss of yet another one of them being taken...

SAD

anklebiter
16th November 2011, 23:06
anklebiter that was funny. i'm sure it wasn't at the time, but how often does one get to watch nature at its' best?

I don't know, I thought it was pretty fitting. If more events like this took place, fewer people would hunt these animals for sport each year.

STATIC
16th November 2011, 23:13
Are you hungry?
Are you in a battle to survive?
Are you in any immidate need to be covered from the cold with animal's skin?
Are you being attacked?


"The wilderness is also very beautiful, And full of all kinds of life "

Tomorrow it will be not as full of life as it is today. and a few more deers will grieve the loss of yet another one of them being taken...

SAD

A bit harsh don't you think?

WhiteFeather
16th November 2011, 23:15
Enjoy Your Bliss You Have Created!

Limor Wolf
16th November 2011, 23:15
Are you hungry?
Are you in a battle to survive?
Are you in any immidate need to be covered from the cold with animal's skin?
Are you being attacked?

[QUOTE]"The wilderness is also very beautiful, And full of all kinds of life "

Tomorrow it will be not as full of life as it is today. and a few more deers will grieve the loss of yet another one of them being taken...

SAD

A bit harsh don't you think?

No

13th Warrior
16th November 2011, 23:38
"The Na'vi were meat-eating hunters, but they had to had to understand the pantheistic oneness before they could take life. When Jake kills a hexapede, he prays: "I see you, brother, and thank you. Your spirit goes with Eywa, your body stays behind to become part of the people."

Fred Steeves
16th November 2011, 23:44
"The Na'vi were meat-eating hunters, but they had to had to understand the pantheistic oneness before they could take life. When Jake kills a hexapede, he prays: "I see you, brother, and thank you. Your spirit goes with Eywa, your body stays behind to become part of the people."

Ah yes, the middle way.

misericordia
17th November 2011, 01:06
"The Na'vi were meat-eating hunters,'' in response to your remark 13th Warrior.. I must remind you that the Na'vi did not live in a 21st century Western society where hunting for survival is no longer necessary and you can find all the nutrients you would ever need for sustenance in a supermarket aisle. Today hunting is a sport which is quite frankly.. irrational. We kill billions and billions of animals mercilessly already, is it too much to ask for the few that remain to live in peace?

I don't understand how this thread is at all related to the spirit of Avalon and I'm very sad that it has found itself on these shores..

Jagman not to be disrespectful but I'll be hoping that your uncle does not 'take one' tomorrow at dawn.

blufire
17th November 2011, 01:20
For those of you who find deer hunting horrible and unethical obviously have not lived where the deer population is out of control. I am thankful for people like my partner, jagman and other responsible hunters.

Those of you against the careful and responsible harvesting of deer have never seen herds of deer starving or stripping bark off trees they would normally not touch because they are starving . . . .

You have never seen hundreds of acres of corn and soy beans destroyed by deer which then inflates the price of food and can destroy a small farmer’s income and livelihood.

You have never suffered with Lyme disease (I have), Rocky Mountain Spotted Fever or West Nile Disease which are carried and spread by deer ticks and viruses. These diseases have grown exponentially with the out of control deer population, especially in the Midwestern states.

We process the venison we need for the year but take other deer to local butcher shops and pay $150 to $250 so we can then take this meat to local food banks and homeless shelters and we know many other hunters who do this same thing. Shelters can only accept meat that has been processed under USDA approved businesses.

I disdain the purely trophy hunters or the idiots that come out of the cities by droves a couple weekends a year who do not know how to make a clean kill. Conscientious hunters will watch the herd all year and make knowledgeable choices in which deer should be harvested

We are all stewards of this beautiful planet and we all should strive to do our part.

So if hunting is not the way you would address the very serious problem of out of control deer population . . . . . then . . . could you please . . .

Spend tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands feeding all these deer and please don’t forget veterinary bills for their care

Send hundreds of thousands to the farmers that have lost their crops and livelihood and can’t feed their babies.

Send hundreds of thousands for medical bills to those infected and disabled with Lyme, West Nile and Spotted Fever.

Send tens of thousands or tons (literally) of food to the homeless shelters and food banks to replace the meat they would not otherwise get.

I’m very serious about this . . . . . if you are so against hunting and the responsible harvesting and environmental control of deer or other wildlife then DO SOMETHING . . . . I would bet my farm that you haven’t and never will.

jagman
17th November 2011, 01:25
Misericordia, I completely understand your point of view. There are points to be made on both sides of this issue.
And i would be lying if I said I didnt feel conflicted about this issue.

The point of this thread, At least to me was more about the wild than the hunt!
There are a lot of Avalonians that live in cities and never get to experience the
Serenity of the wild. Yesterday I could have shot two deers that were standing
About 30 yards away from me and I didnt fire a shot!

thunder24
17th November 2011, 01:36
"The Na'vi were meat-eating hunters,'' in response to your remark 13th Warrior.. I must remind you that the Na'vi did not live in a 21st century Western society where hunting for survival is no longer necessary and you can find all the nutrients you would ever need for sustenance in a supermarket aisle. Today hunting is a sport which is quite frankly.. irrational. We kill billions and billions of animals mercilessly already, is it too much to ask for the few that remain to live in peace?

I don't understand how this thread is at all related to the spirit of Avalon and I'm very sad that it has found itself on these shores..

Jagman not to be disrespectful but I'll be hoping that your uncle does not 'take one' tomorrow at dawn.

Apparently you are unaware of what they feed animals now days and the treatment of huge farms animals.... I dont like to eat steroids sorrry...

oooo...you meant organic....yeah I can't afford that...

Can't wait till the freezer is full.... and the one that rann into my car and cost me in "hip national bank" is the reason for my change of heart...the populations are not dwendling, and they help me and my friends and families have meat for the winter since there are not enough jobs sooooo.....the western culture you speak of is a generality and not covering all...

peace

STATIC
17th November 2011, 01:48
For those of you who find deer hunting horrible and unethical obviously have not lived where the deer population is out of control. I am thankful for people like my partner, jagman and other responsible hunters.

Those of you against the careful and responsible harvesting of deer have never seen herds of deer starving or stripping bark off trees they would normally not touch because they are starving . . . .

You have never seen hundreds of acres of corn and soy beans destroyed by deer which then inflates the price of food and can destroy a small farmer’s income and livelihood.

You have never suffered with Lyme disease (I have), Rocky Mountain Spotted Fever or West Nile Disease which are carried and spread by deer ticks and viruses. These diseases have grown exponentially with the out of control deer population, especially in the Midwestern states.

We process the venison we need for the year but take other deer to local butcher shops and pay $150 to $250 so we can then take this meat to local food banks and homeless shelters and we know many other hunters who do this same thing. Shelters can only accept meat that has been processed under USDA approved businesses.

I disdain the purely trophy hunters or the idiots that come out of the cities by droves a couple weekends a year who do not know how to make a clean kill. Conscientious hunters will watch the herd all year and make knowledgeable choices in which deer should be harvested

We are all stewards of this beautiful planet and we all should strive to do our part.

So if hunting is not the way you would address the very serious problem of out of control deer population . . . . . then . . . could you please . . .

Spend tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands feeding all these deer and please don’t forget veterinary bills for their care

Send hundreds of thousands to the farmers that have lost their crops and livelihood and can’t feed their babies.

Send hundreds of thousands for medical bills to those infected and disabled with Lyme, West Nile and Spotted Fever.

Send tens of thousands or tons (literally) of food to the homeless shelters and food banks to replace the meat they would not otherwise get.

I’m very serious about this . . . . . if you are so against hunting and the responsible harvesting and environmental control of deer or other wildlife then DO SOMETHING . . . . I would bet my farm that you haven’t and never will.

Thanks, I was waiting for somebody to respond to this that has a clue about the reality of life in the wild.

The deer herd where I live would pretty much starve in the winter if it weren't for hunters. It sounds crazy to most people but it's true.

misericordia
17th November 2011, 02:18
Jagman thank you for the clarification and for sharing your own personal opinion.

Jeez.. I'm quite surprised at the aggressive tone I've elicited from your posts.

First stop Blufire.. why is this the case in the first place?

I believe it is due to callous human intervention.
'People long ago wiped out the wolves and other predators that kept deer populations in check. Then suburbanization created a browser's paradise: a vast patchwork of well-watered, fertilizer-fattened plantings to feed on and vest-pocket forests to hide in, with hunters banished to more distant woods.'
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/11/12/science/out-of-control-deer-send-ecosystem-into-chaos.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm

'Allowing hunters to kill more does, however, does not resolve population problems. In the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries, the open hunting of does left fawns without mothers, and removed too many females from the breeding population. Sport hunting decimated deer populations in many states. As a result, states passed laws restricting the hunting of does. These policies have contributed to the overpopulation of deer.'http://www.idausa.org/facts/deercontrol.html

Coupled with a spot of backtracking

'Then came an era of unbridled hunting for commercial venison sales and the widespread displacement of forests by farms, and by the 20th-century, deer were nearly eliminated from every corner of their range. So, prompted by pleas from hunters, state officials worked hard to restore deer. For example, the deer now clearing brush in Posey Hollow descend from stock trucked to Virginia decades ago from Arkansas. Such efforts have succeeded beyond anyone's wildest dreams. The national whitetail population has risen from a low of about 500,000 in 1900 to something like the 20 million of Jefferson's time.'
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/11/12/science/out-of-control-deer-send-ecosystem-into-chaos.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm

Coupled with a dose of commercial exploitation
'Present Wildlife Management Practices
Wildlife and land management agencies purport to effectively limit deer populations to numbers sustainable by their natural habitat. In reality, the policies of such agencies exacerbate deer overpopulation, serving only to provide a population large enough to suit sport hunters. The overpopulation of deer stems not only from the specific mismanagement of deer populations, but from the mismanagement of our forestlands and natural areas.'

and Land Mismanagement
Many national, private, and state owned lands are open to logging. The natural fires that used to renew forests are no longer allowed to burn with regularity. Thus, logging companies and many land management agencies argue that logging is a means of maintaining a forest's health, allowing saplings and ground cover access to sun. In reality, logging normally takes the form of clear cutting.

Companies demolish large stands of trees, rather than selectively taking trees from different stands of timber. This practice ill effects animals dependent on trees for food and cover. It also creates fields of additional "browse" vegetation for deer, causing a surge in deer population attributable to the introduction of this food source. In turn, governments argue that hunting should be used to control the resulting population increase.' http://www.idausa.org/facts/deercontrol.html

Instead of killing perhaps:
'Contraception, promoted for years by the Humane Society and other animal welfare groups, has effectively reduced some deer populations in places like Fire Island in New York, but usually only where wildlife biologists have permission to go into every backyard to dart all the does in a particular population. Female deer rarely wander far from where they were born, so they are relatively easy to find.' http://www.nytimes.com/2002/11/12/science/out-of-control-deer-send-ecosystem-into-chaos.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm

While I am aware that stating the obvious does not solve the problems you have outlined.. I will say however to remember that it is no FAULT OF THE ANIMAL and it's in all likelihood not what nature would have intended to occur. In my opinion the remedy does not lie in the same treatment that gave birth to the disease in the first place.

And it certainly does not take away from the initial point I made about the post. (the post of which held no reference to the fact that the hunting was being done for such management and not for mere sport)

Healthy Skeptic
17th November 2011, 02:36
Have a look at this:

k5oELPp9LFY

larphill
17th November 2011, 02:43
While I don't hunt and probably never will (unless there's a zombie apocalypse!) that doesn't mean I don't condone it. Some people argue that it's wrong to kill living things, or "anything with a face," but as previously stated there are a lot of people who rely on the meat provided from the kill. We're above deer on the food chain, and thus have the god given right to eat them if need be. That doesn't mean everybody should be out there killing, but it also means (IMO) nobody should be overly critical of those killing for sustenance.

P.S. I love venison.

Shamz
17th November 2011, 03:21
please don't kill animals for fun --just to have one good day of fun in the wild....there are so many other good ways to feel proud of you.

blufire
17th November 2011, 03:26
misericordia . . . you’re right you did not address any of my points.

Anyone one can google and cut and paste information to support their point.

I am living it you are in Brazil or the UK.

I am entirely aware that the human population has completely disrupted the balance of nature and natural resources . . . . so what would be your answer to that my friend??? Remove a large portion of the human population?

Your point on clear cutting and logging is actually one of my quests. I have moved back to the Appalachian Mountains and will be moving forward to fight with my last breath against logging, strip mining, and gas conglomerates.

I laughed out loud when I read your point on the Humane Society and contraception for the deer. Tell you what I am fine with that. You and a few thousand people that would like to do away with hunting or find a different way to control the deer population come on over to the US with several hundred thousand dollars and have at it.

I apologize for the tone of this post but it really does frustrate me to no end when people are against something and express negative thoughts and comments but do NOTHING of consequence to fix or address the problem.

At least in the county I lived while in Kansas the residents in the area worked together to a good degree and kept the deer population down and mostly manageable.

And by the way . . . .this county and surrounding counties also have cougars, wolves, coyotes, bobcats and many other wonderful wildlife species.

So as I said in my above post . . .We are all stewards of this incredible planet and each of us should be rolling up our sleeves and getting to work to clean up our mess . . . . .

Healthy Skeptic
17th November 2011, 03:54
please don't kill animals for fun --just to have one good day of fun in the wild....there are so many other good ways to feel proud of you.

Yes, I understand how you feel. That's why I posted the video in Post #19 above.
It was not meant to 'judgemental' or 'sarcastic'.
Everyone is entitled to His/Her beliefs regardless of how 'cruel' it may seem to be.
Love. HS

misericordia
17th November 2011, 04:09
Blufire, again I will reemphasize, my remark concerning the initial post in this thread was one directed at what I assumed was a post in reference to hunting that was being done for mere trophy sport. Thus, I recognize now that I responded with a reactionary tone to the information provided. HOWEVER, if jagman had referenced the nature of his hunt in relation to management of deer population etc than I would not have commented in such a way.

Of course I'm not going to have the answers to your questions. And thank you for 'laughing' at the contraception idea.. even though it has proven to be successful albeit yes costly. But any solution will be costly one way or another.
You say there are many predators that still surround the counties however it is clearly the case that there aren't enough, maybe an investment in a greater move to re-introduce more predator species in the area would alleviate the situation. Again you will retort by smirking at how investment for such a move would be accrued etcetc.. so it's not like I would be able to please you with any sort of discussion anyway. The IDAUSA have the following prescriptions:
By changing hunting, land management policies, and human development practices, we can better control deer populations. Some or all of the following measures should be employed.
Ban sport hunting.
Reintroduce natural predators, such as wolves and mountain lions, where possible. Maintain existing populations of natural predators.
Ban clear-cut logging.
Allow fires to burn naturally in wildlife areas. Limit new human habitations in wildlife areas, decreasing the risk of property damage in the event of a fire, and making controlled burns a more acceptable wildlife management tool.
Prevent humans in residential areas, state parks, and federal parks from feeding deer. Deer should be reliant on their own habitat for food.
Erect high fencing around crops and plants. Electric and sturdy fencing increase the effectiveness of this deterrent. Fences should be at least eight feet high and buried one foot deep. Openings in the fence should be small. Contact a university agricultural extension office or landscape business before purchasing and installing your fencing.

Larphill.. many in today’s USA can survive without eating meat.. (but that's a whole different ball game which will probably garner even more abuse than I have already got) So when I say sustenance I'm also alluding to the fact that there are many nutritionally accepted ways toward it that aren't through meat. If you think that we have a ‘god given right’ to kill then that is your prerogative, I don’t agree..
And I was not being overly critical.

Apparently you are unaware of what they feed animals now days and the treatment of huge farms animals.... I dont like to eat steroids sorrry...
oooo...you meant organic....yeah I can't afford that...
Can't wait till the freezer is full.... and the one that rann into my car and cost me in "hip national bank" is the reason for my change of heart...the populations are not dwendling, and they help me and my friends and families have meat for the winter since there are not enough jobs sooooo.....the western culture you speak of is a generality and not covering all...
peace
Thunder. I don't understand why you have to write in such a tone. :( Obviously any statement that encompasses a wide breadth of affirmation will never be able to cater for every individual case. I'm assuming however that your situation is not similar to that facing an African that lives in a hut in the middle of a ravaged, war ridden desert. I'm pretty sure you have at least one food shop near you. I also said 'nutrients that provide enough sustenance' which does not necessarily imply that meat has to be part of the mix (again a whole other ballgame). I'm veg and I can buy my food for very cheap.. in fact I have no choice but to do so. But you’re killing them for survival and for what you personally deem as economically efficient and so I hope that you are always fully fed and healthy. Good luck.
Just my two cents.. no disrespect intended.

Limor Wolf
17th November 2011, 09:09
Originally posted by Bluefire: "the deer population is out of control. I am thankful for people like my partner, jagman and other responsible hunters."

There is no deny that the human population is also out of control,would you be thankful for some responsible hunters to come and 'do the job' on us?



"You have never suffered with Lyme disease (I have), Rocky Mountain Spotted Fever or West Nile Disease which are carried and spread by deer ticks and viruses. These diseases have grown exponentially with the out of control deer population, especially in the Midwestern states."

No one is better carry and spreading diseases than the human being,lets not even start to count them,we dont have the whole week...shall we call some 'responsible hunters to take care of us ?

(however,I am sorry to hear that you had Lyme disease.I hope you are well)


"You have never seen hundreds of acres of corn and soy beans destroyed by deer which then inflates the price of food"

We have the names and adresses of those who inflates the price of food,many truth seekers will be happy to assist with a bit of knowledge on the economy game,but there are some good eye opening movies as well,you can try 'inside job' (2010) (http://nwoobserver.wordpress.com/2011/05/31/documentary-inside-job-2010/)


"We are all stewards of this beautiful planet and we all should strive to do our part."

That is obviously a beautiful sentence! No ofence intended Blufire,but is 'our best' include living with all the fears you have mentioned above? without being able to figure some alternative ways to problems that we have created with our own hands?

Misericordia has already included all the valuable facts in her response.

Its good to have a pointing finger,but is it possible that you just may have been confused with the direction?

http://kerryg.hubpages.com/hub/Why-Hunting-Is-Bad-For-the-Environment

Fred Steeves
17th November 2011, 11:59
What is this, rage of the vegetarians round #2? What's the deal here with nice people coming unglued at the mere mention of going out and getting their own fresh meat? Unfortunately, I get mine full of steroids and anti-biotics from the store, from animals that were most likely tortured, so rip me a new one while you're at it, o.k.?

There are two young vegans in my family, plus a couple of good old fashioned vegetarians, who never say a word to anyone about what aweful flesh eaters they are. It would be unseemly. They speak their truth through their actions, and of course people notice, ask questions, and think about it. I still may become a vegetarian, but I CERTAINLY wouldn't do it with someone wagging a pretentious finger in my face.

And one more thing, who's to say it's all hunky dory to slaughter our brothers and sisters in the plant kingdom? If humans truly natural way of sustenance is from the sun/atmosphere, then the high and mighties here are not only guilty of slaughter themselves, but of hypocrisy.

Rant over.:kiss:

By the way, did I mention I love you guys?

Cheers,
Fred

music
17th November 2011, 12:18
Look to your own soul, and let your brother or sister look to theirs. Love all, judge none.

Limor Wolf
17th November 2011, 12:54
No rage, Fred.No judgment,music .just a sincere appeal in the name of the animals who can't speak for themselvs.
their voice is not being heard (definitely not after they are chopped to pieces)

Love you guys as well
:hug:


~ please continue ~

http://international-campaigns.org/images/divers/souriscongele_small.jpg

13th Warrior
17th November 2011, 14:14
I just want to add emphasis on this point of Fred S's:


And one more thing, who's to say it's all hunky dory to slaughter our brothers and sisters in the plant kingdom? If humans truly natural way of sustenance is from the sun/atmosphere, then the high and mighties here are not only guilty of slaughter themselves, but of hypocrisy.

shamanseeker
17th November 2011, 14:22
Hi,
In the north of Italy where I live they deliberately kill female deer and leave their young to fend for themselves so that these abandoned fawns grow up weak and sickly with parasites. The local politicians who have created this situation then use it as an excuse to cull them.
They also release large numbers of deer into one place and use the excuse that they need to be culled because there are too many. There is a woman, an ex-forest warden who has written books about this. She and her friends have moved deer from one area to another in order to save them. She was out with her male colleagues one day when they made sure there was no way of escape for some foxes and they shot them one by one as a game. She has lost her job as a result, received threats and her life has been made a misery because she has revealed what goes on.
The indigenous peoples had to hunt: it was not a sport for them and they asked the animal for forgiveness and only took what was absolutely necessary. We do not have a God-given right to kill them for sport. It is the mentality of the Judeo-Christian religions with the idea that ‘man has dominion over the Earth’ that is ruining our environments; our planet.
Anyone who can kill a magnificent animal like a deer (or any other animal for that matter) for sport (most hunters are not starving) must be very cold-hearted indeed.

(and yes, I am judging because I'm human and not perfect yet, just like you are judging when you criticise people for judging you)

shamanseeker
17th November 2011, 14:40
Hi,
In the north of Italy where I live they deliberately kill female deer and leave their young to fend for themselves so that these abandoned fawns grow up weak and sickly with parasites. The local politicians who have created this situation then use it as an excuse to cull them.
They also release large numbers of deer into one place and use the excuse that they need to be culled because there are too many. There is a woman, an ex-forest warden who has written books about this. She and her friends have moved deer from one area to another in order to save them. She was out with her male colleagues one day when they made sure there was no way of escape for some foxes and they shot them one by one as a game. She has lost her job as a result, received threats and her life has been made a misery because she has revealed what goes on.
The indigenous peoples had to hunt: it was not a sport for them and they asked the animal for forgiveness and only took what was absolutely necessary. We do not have a God-given right to kill them for sport. It is the mentality of the Judeo-Christian religions with the idea that ‘man has dominion over the Earth’ that is ruining our environments; our planet.
Anyone who can kill a magnificent animal like a deer (or any other animal for that matter) for sport (most hunters are not starving) must be very cold-hearted indeed.

(and yes, I am judging because I'm human and not perfect yet, just like you are judging when you criticise people for judging you)



I forgot to add that the mentality that modern-day hunters are using is the same as the Illuminati's when they think we have to be 'culled' in order to save the ecology of the planet. Could this be our karma?

Lord Sidious
17th November 2011, 14:42
I am in a spot where I don't want to eat meat anymore, so I have bought some products to replace the meat.
I can't and won't abide cruelty and the meat industry is built on it.
It's funny, I was trained and conditioned to kill men, yet the idea of killing animals makes me squeamish.
Maybe because men have the chance to fight back.
Anyways, for me, I wouldn't participate in hunting, not even for ''culling'' as I have no need.
If others want to, that is their issue to deal with.
All said in a non judgmental, loving tone.
Or some s**t. :p

13th Warrior
17th November 2011, 14:45
"The Na'vi were meat-eating hunters,'' in response to your remark 13th Warrior.. I must remind you that the Na'vi did not live in a 21st century Western society where hunting for survival is no longer necessary and you can find all the nutrients you would ever need for sustenance in a supermarket aisle. Today hunting is a sport which is quite frankly.. irrational. We kill billions and billions of animals mercilessly already, is it too much to ask for the few that remain to live in peace?

I don't understand how this thread is at all related to the spirit of Avalon and I'm very sad that it has found itself on these shores..

Jagman not to be disrespectful but I'll be hoping that your uncle does not 'take one' tomorrow at dawn.

I'd like to share some quotes with you from Aldo Leopold, please take time to ponder them:

"There are two spiritual dangers in not owning a farm. One is the danger of supposing that breakfast comes from the grocery, and the other that heat comes from the furnace.

To avoid the first danger, one should plant a garden, preferably where there is no grocer to confuse the issue.

To avoid the second, he should lay a split of good oak on the andirons, preferably where there is no furnace, and let it warm his shins while a February blizzard tosses the trees outside. If one has cut, split, hauled, and piled his own good oak, and let his mind work the while, he will remember much about where the heat comes from, and with a wealth of detail denied to those who spend the week end in town astride a radiator."


"A peculiar virtue in wildlife ethics is that the hunter ordinarily has no gallery to applaud or disapprove of his conduct. Whatever his acts, they are dictated by his own conscience, rather than that of onlookers. It is difficult to exaggerate the importance of this fact."

"“Perhaps no one but a hunter can understand how intense an affection a boy can feel for a piece of marsh…. I came home one Christmas to find that land promoters, with the help of the Corps of Engineers had dyked and drained my boyhood hunting grounds on the Mississippi river bottoms…. My hometown thought the community enriched by this change. I thought it impoverished.”

"“For one species to mourn the death of another is a new thing under the sun.”

“Like winds and sunsets, wild things were taken for granted until progress began to do away with them. Now we face the question whether a still higher 'standard of living' is worth its cost in things natural, wild and free.”

“Our tools are better than we are, and grow better faster than we do. They suffice to crack the atom, to command the tides, but they do not suffice for the oldest task in human history, to live on a piece of land without spoiling it.”

"Land, then, is not merely soil; it is a fountain of energy flowing through a circuit of soils, plants, and animals. |Food chains are the living channels which conduct energy up ward; death and decay return it to the soil. The circuit is not closed; some energy is dissipated in decay, some is added by absorption from the air, some is stored in soils, peats, and long-lived forests; but it is a sustained circuit, like a slowly augmented revolving fund of life. There is always a net loss by downhill wash, but this is normally small and offset by the decay of rocks. It is deposited in the ocean and, in the course of geological time, raised to form new lands and new pyramids."

"Perhaps the most serious obstacle impeding the evolution of a land ethic is the fact that our educational and economic system is headed away from, rather than toward, a intense consciousness of land. Your true modern is separate from the land by many middlemen, and by innumerable physical gadgets. He has no vital relation to it; to him it is the space between cities on which crops grow. Turn him loose for a day on the land, and if the spot does not happen to be a golf links or a 'scenic' area, he is bored stiff. If crops could be raised by hydroponics instead of farming, it would suit him very well. Synthetic substitutes for wood, leather, wool, and other natural land products suit him better than the originals. In short, land is something he has 'outgrown."

These are the words from a man who hunted; if you cannot find profound meaning in his words; perhaps you should take up hunting for a spell...

Limor Wolf
17th November 2011, 15:11
I just want to add emphasis on this point of Fred S's:


And one more thing, who's to say it's all hunky dory to slaughter our brothers and sisters in the plant kingdom? If humans truly natural way of sustenance is from the sun/atmosphere, then the high and mighties here are not only guilty of slaughter themselves, but of hypocrisy.


I will be happy to comment on that guys (if thats o.k...)

Lets take fruit out.fruit is growing on trees,it falls down,the tree is staying healthy and happy! reaping the fruits from the trees is actually known to help it renew itself and keep it blossoming.

Vegetables have roots inside the soil and therefore when plucking it out,we indeed finish its life.

Its been said before in this type of 'argument' (I rather think that we are talking) and everytime it is passing over the heads of the negotiators and does not get any relevant reference.

No one is requested to give up their own life! we have the 'life insinct' rooted deep in us,thank goodness, (as others creatures do),therefore,not eating=death,that will not be a desirable outcome :p

I know that vegtables are alive! the same as animals they are alive as well.

The small difference between the two is the level of awarness,this can be compared to a person undergoing surgery under general anesthesia, or undergoing surgery with full alertness,they are both breathing. I would love to give up eating vegtables! we might all be turn into breatherians in the future and save ourselves all the headache's in this constantly repeated argument! you dont believe it? read this amazing thread - http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?34696-Breatharianism-and-living-on-Prana-a-how-to-guide

Level of awarness is certainly a significant factor both for the human who chose what he would like to consume as well as for the vegtable being picked up from the soil.

I am trying to mimize the level of suffering in the world and I can still stay happy,healthy and content! what are you doing for that?

(no offence is meant,I love you all and respect everyone's choices,untill it arrives to causing suffer to another without real necessity .I am trully sorry for not being considered 'nice' when expressing myself this way,However I believe that both sides of this issue need to be put on the table.although we are one people,'we are all one' etc, and I do understand that truth can be hard to look at sometimes)

Please try and take the time to 'feel' this 'argument' and not only assess it with the help of our logic mind.

From the 'not-nice',although,not in a rage :-)

Limor

13th Warrior
17th November 2011, 15:18
Lets take fruit out.fruit is growing on trees,it falls down,the tree is staying healthy and happy! reaping the fruits from the trees is actually known to help it renew itself and keep it blossoming.

Fruit is the unborn fetus of a tree...

Fred Steeves
17th November 2011, 15:21
Might I recommend a group hug?:grouphug: We have bigger fish to fry...

Oops, did I just say that?

Love you guys,
Fred

13th Warrior
17th November 2011, 15:28
The small difference between the two is the level of awarness,this can be compared to a person undergoing surgery under general anesthesia, or undergoing surgery with full alertness,they are both breathing. I would love to give up eating vegtables! we might all be turn into breatherians in the future and save ourselves all the headache's in this constantly repeated argument! you dont believe it? read this amazing thread - http://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...a-how-to-guide

Did you know that when a plant is under attack it will send out a warning to the other plants in it's vicinity?

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/10/071001-plant-networks_2.html

I'd be careful about presuming to know who or what has more or less consciousness or to elevate the value of one organism above another.

STATIC
17th November 2011, 15:38
Might I recommend a group hug?:grouphug: We have bigger fish to fry...

Oops, did I just say that?

Love you guys,
Fred

I think we can all agree that we want less suffering in this world. hug received.

Limor Wolf
17th November 2011, 15:41
Originally posted by 13th warrior: "Fruit is the unborn fetus of a tree... "




Fruit is a flower


Originally posted by Fred: "Love you guys"

Fred,this 'love' thing need to be stopped.you are deteriorating this place! where did you get your education from? Oh deer,oh deer.. :p

Seriously,there are not only two sides here - humans who are thinking like that and humans who think differently ,there is also the side that is standing infront of the gun,the knife or the electric shocker with sad eyes.and will we dare look deep into them?

Love and vegetables,

~*&^~*&

Limor

panopticon
17th November 2011, 15:43
G'day blufire,

I said when jagman originally voiced about going hunting that I eat my fellow animals as they will eat me when I die (unless I am cremated).



I laughed out loud when I read your point on the Humane Society and contraception for the deer. Tell you what I am fine with that. You and a few thousand people that would like to do away with hunting or find a different way to control the deer population come on over to the US with several hundred thousand dollars and have at it.

While they're at it come down to Australia and "fix" the rabbit and water buffalo problem. These introduced pests degrade the environment, damage water ways, endanger native flora and fauna and cause all sorts of disease problems. Some *clever person* running around chasing an angry buffalo will soon learn how to levitate the hard way!



At least in the county I lived while in Kansas the residents in the area worked together to a good degree and kept the deer population down and mostly manageable.
And by the way . . . .this county and surrounding counties also have cougars, wolves, coyotes, bobcats and many other wonderful wildlife species.

We've got very few natural predators here in Tasmania for rabbits let alone the introduced deer. The spotted quoll are only small, wedge tail eagles just wont do it and the Tassie Devil is in serious decline due to facial tumours (they're mostly a scavenger anyway).

I'll repeat that:
There are no predators for bloody deer in Tasmania other than humans.

Same goes for roos and wallabies. They're both an excellent lean meat source and by eating them the land supplies us and we supply the land. Not to mention help keep the numbers down. You see, a female kangaroo, or female wallaby, always has 3 joeys in toe. One at heel, one in the pouch and one waiting to take the pouch. If the weather turns bad (eg drought) the breeding cycle doesn't stop. They just keep pumping 'em out 365 days a year. So most of the joey's die from lack of water in a drought. The cycle will only slow if the female starts to become dehydrated or malnourished.

"What's that skip?"


We are all stewards of this incredible planet and each of us should be rolling up our sleeves and getting to work to clean up our mess . . . . .
Couldn't agree more.

Kind Regards, :yo:
Panopticon

13th Warrior
17th November 2011, 15:46
Originally posted by 13th warrior: "Fruit is the unborn fetus of a tree... "




Fruit is a flower


Originally posted by Fred: "Love you guys"

Fred,this 'love' thing need to be stopped.you are deteriorating this place! where did you get your education from? Oh deer,oh deer..

Seriously,there is not only two sides here - human who thinks like that and human who thinks differently,there is also the side that is standing infront of the gun,the knife or the electric shocker with sad eyes.and will you dare look deep into it?

Love and vegetables,

~*&^~*&


Limor


A flower is the sex organ that produces the fruit...this is an example of what Aldo refers to with his statements about the dangers of people forgetting where their food comes from.

misericordia
17th November 2011, 15:48
A plant is not sentient.. it feels electrical impulses and reacts accordingly.

'A cow screams louder than a carrot' Allan Watts.

Also 13th Warrior I know about Leopoldo. I did my dissertation on Deep Ecology (look that up) and as a result read a sand county almanac. Also thank you for the tone of your post.

Now I'm not going to get into matters of spirituality and meat etc because that is something that opens up a whole can of worms.

I cannot believe i'm now being called a pretentious vegetarian. I have been afforded torrents of abuse because of one mere remark that was relevant to the INITIAL POST of the thread. As far as I can see the thread was not called 'deer hunting: managing deer population levels'!

panopticon
17th November 2011, 15:53
G'day Limor,


Originally posted by 13th warrior: "Fruit is the unborn fetus of a tree... "

Fruit is a flower


Fruit is a seed container. The flower comes before the fruit and the seed develops in the fruit.
Basic biology.

Kind Regards, :yo:
Panopticon

Lisab
17th November 2011, 15:58
Aahh the beauty of living in a semi free world....we can actively disagree with each other and still get on! Carry on. Hugs.

13th Warrior
17th November 2011, 15:58
'A cow screams louder than a carrot' Allan Watts.

We used to think that the giraffe was the only animal that couldn't communicate because it has no vocal cords; as it turns out they do have audible communication that is above the human threshold of hearing...

misericordia
17th November 2011, 16:10
A giraffe has a nervous system.. red blood circulation.. etc. Are you really going to compare the pain of a plant to that of an animal?

Also, I'm aware that my vibrational signals will impact any living being around me and thus before I eat any especially living food I will thank it.

The Backster Effect an excerpt (p.23-24)from the source field investigations:

'Backster did tell me that if you 'pray' over your food, by sending it positive, loving thoughts, it then seems t accept its role in helping you stay alive-and these severe reactions no longer occur on the graph paper. Many cultures and spiritual traditions encourage us to ''thank our food''. With Backster's research we now see that this seemingly unimportant behaviour- from a scientific standpoint- has a definite purpose in our new model.'

Limor Wolf
17th November 2011, 16:10
G'day Limor,


Originally posted by 13th warrior: "Fruit is the unborn fetus of a tree... "

Fruit is a flower



Fruit is a seed container. The flower comes before the fruit and the seed develops in the fruit.
Basic biology.

Kind Regards, :yo:
Panopticon

I agree,but there is no taking life involved (we are not going to divert this converstaion to the abortion issue,wont we ? It might have some serious consequences.lol )

nails are also an extention of the body,but most of us cut them of with scissors
As long as we dont hurt the root,we dont take life.

Regards,

Limor

panopticon
17th November 2011, 16:19
G'day misericordia,

I hope that I haven't offended you in my post. If I did I apologise.

I sometimes have had to defend my positions in heated debate (elsewhere) and periodically get exasperated.
The usual Peter Singer arguments really annoy me and don't address the wider ecological damage caused by introduced pest species.
Water Buffalo, rabbits and cane toads in Australia are destroying the native ecosystem.
According to Singer, that's fine. Yet the damage is caused by introduced species so shouldn't humans rectify the problems they themselves caused?
Then there's the issue of, for example, the water buffalo having become a different breed/species so what sort of ethical problem does that produce? Can't ship them back to their native environment cause that's in the Northern Territory (Australia) as it's argued they are a new genetically distinct breed that has evolved here over the last couple of centuries...

Truth be known it's a bloody huge mess and the only thing I can think to do is shake my head at the mess we've made of the place.

Look at New Zealand (Aotearoa). Before humans (both white and Maori) came there were no mammals. Only birds. An incredibly delicate ecosystem was destroyed by the introduction of rats and cats. Amazing.

I understand that the post was about jagman assisting his uncle hunt deer for food and I was merely agreeing with blufires perspective regards invasive species population control and venting some frustration at an impossible dilemma.

Kind Regards, :yo:
Panopticon

13th Warrior
17th November 2011, 16:22
I've made my contribution to this topic so, i will go now and leave you with this quote from "Avatar" the movie:

"Sky People cannot learn, you do not See."

blufire
17th November 2011, 16:28
misericordia, limor and the other vegan and vegetarians who will read this.

I am not your enemy; I do not scorn and disrespect your way of life as you do mine. You come from a very emotional place and I come from a very practical place. I respect and honor yours and I wish you could come to the time and place where you could respect and honor mine.

On the organic farm I had in Kansas I worked from before dawn to way after dark to supply organic food for as many as I could . . . including vegans and vegetarians.
I cannot in words explain to you the devastation of going out to a field of natural heirloom sweet corn that the day before was 20 acres of beautiful 5 inch seedlings to see ¾ of it gone from a large herd or deer coming through in the night and nipping each of those seedlings to the ground. That was $4800 . . . . gone. That was 20 acres of nutritious non-gmo healthy food for many people . . . . gone. There were hundreds of acres of gmo corn all around my farm that the deer won’t touch because they know instinctually it is tainted. But they do eat it when they are starving and my organic plants and vegetables were devastated first.

Misericordia (limor you supported) you said one solution was to build a fence 8 foot high. Do you even have the beginning of an idea how much that would cost. . . . . how many really good harvest years it would take to recoup that cost?? Would you then be willing to send the food or money to feed the deer and vet bills because they would then be fenced out from their only remaining food source?

Do you have any idea how devastating it is when you come across a young buck that is skin and bones from starvation and disease and have to shoot it and then bury it deep enough or burn it completely because of the possibility it has a contagious disease that would spread to other deer or animals. Responsible farmers and country people do this very thing.

Do you have the beginning of any idea how emotionally devastating this is ???? Let alone how physically exhausting. They look at you with those beautiful big eyes pleading to end their misery and suffering and I have and will have to again I’m sure.

Have you ever been to homeless shelters or food banks and seen the hungry and suffering people? Have you seen the highly processed nutritionally devoid fried junk they are fed?? Have you seen the thankfulness and joy when you bring healthy meat to them that will actually fill their tummies and keep them satiated for many hours and days?

You throw hateful comments and lofty ideas but do nothing to actually begin to change these horrible confusing problems.

Not only did we feed people organic meat but I respected and honored many vegans and vegetarians by feeding them as well. My respect for your choice for food even went to the place that I kept chickens separate from the rooster so the eggs wouldn’t be fertilized so the vegetarians could eat those eggs in peace. I fed my hens organic feed that did not have any animal by products in it so my vegetarian friends could eat the eggs knowing I respected their choice.

Limor you post nasty pictures of meat obviously to make a hate filled point. That is very hurtful to me. You tear my posts apart and take my words out of context and then post how much you love me?? Somehow I never have felt respected or loved when threads like these deteriorate into the vegan vegetarian –vs- meat eaters. This is bluntly hypocritical.

Those of you or hate or disdain even RESPONSIBLE . . . . did you read my words . . . . I said RESPONSIBLE hunting. Then please become a part of the solution . . . . actually do something to begin to implement change.

I will continue to support you even though I feel you will never support me (meat eaters) or others like me.

I do love and respect you.

Limor Wolf
17th November 2011, 16:29
Originally posted by 13th warrior:" "Sky People cannot learn, you do not See."

Star people can feel.

panopticon
17th November 2011, 16:31
I agree,but there is no taking life involved (we are not going to divert this converstaion to the abortion issue,wont we ? It might have some serious consequences.lol )
nails are also an extention of the body,but most of us cut them of with scissors
As long as we dont hurt the root,we dont take life.


G'day Limor,

As you said finger and toe nails are dead tissue.
It is only the root of the nail that is alive.
It is not the same as the point made concerning fruit.
Fruit is live tissue.

Kind Regards, :yo:
Panopticon

Fred Steeves
17th November 2011, 16:34
Seriously,there are not only two sides here - humans who are thinking like that and humans who think differently ,there is also the side that is standing infront of the gun,the knife or the electric shocker with sad eyes.and will we dare look deep into them?

Love and vegetables,

Angels and demons, locked arm in arm, tumble across the finish line, laughing hysterically at their folly.

Cheers,
Fred

learninglight
17th November 2011, 16:56
misericordia, limor and the other vegan and vegetarians who will read this.

I am not your enemy; I do not scorn and disrespect your way of life as you do mine. You come from a very emotional place and I come from a very practical place. I respect and honor yours and I wish you could come to the time and place where you could respect and honor mine.

On the organic farm I had in Kansas I worked from before dawn to way after dark to supply organic food for as many as I could . . . including vegans and vegetarians.
I cannot in words explain to you the devastation of going out to a field of natural heirloom sweet corn that the day before was 20 acres of beautiful 5 inch seedlings to see ¾ of it gone from a large herd or deer coming through in the night and nipping each of those seedlings to the ground. That was $4800 . . . . gone. That was 20 acres of nutritious non-gmo healthy food for many people . . . . gone. There were hundreds of acres of gmo corn all around my farm that the deer won’t touch because they know instinctually it is tainted. But they do eat it when they are starving and my organic plants and vegetables were devastated first.

Misericordia (limor you supported) you said one solution was to build a fence 8 foot high. Do you even have the beginning of an idea how much that would cost. . . . . how many really good harvest years it would take to recoup that cost?? Would you then be willing to send the food or money to feed the deer and vet bills because they would then be fenced out from their only remaining food source?

Do you have any idea how devastating it is when you come across a young buck that is skin and bones from starvation and disease and have to shoot it and then bury it deep enough or burn it completely because of the possibility it has a contagious disease that would spread to other deer or animals. Responsible farmers and country people do this very thing.

Do you have the beginning of any idea how emotionally devastating this is ???? Let alone how physically exhausting. They look at you with those beautiful big eyes pleading to end their misery and suffering and I have and will have to again I’m sure.

Have you ever been to homeless shelters or food banks and seen the hungry and suffering people? Have you seen the highly processed nutritionally devoid fried junk they are fed?? Have you seen the thankfulness and joy when you bring healthy meat to them that will actually fill their tummies and keep them satiated for many hours and days?

You throw hateful comments and lofty ideas but do nothing to actually begin to change these horrible confusing problems.

Not only did we feed people organic meat but I respected and honored many vegans and vegetarians by feeding them as well. My respect for your choice for food even went to the place that I kept chickens separate from the rooster so the eggs wouldn’t be fertilized so the vegetarians could eat those eggs in peace. I fed my hens organic feed that did not have any animal by products in it so my vegetarian friends could eat the eggs knowing I respected their choice.

Limor you post nasty pictures of meat obviously to make a hate filled point. That is very hurtful to me. You tear my posts apart and take my words out of context and then post how much you love me?? Somehow I never have felt respected or loved when threads like these deteriorate into the vegan vegetarian –vs- meat eaters. This is bluntly hypocritical.

Those of you or hate or disdain even RESPONSIBLE . . . . did you read my words . . . . I said RESPONSIBLE hunting. Then please become a part of the solution . . . . actually do something to begin to implement change.

I will continue to support you even though I feel you will never support me (meat eaters) or others like me.

I do love and respect you.

Wonderful thought provocing post:)

imo this issue of meat eaters and non meat eaters will go on and on and on....sometimes the saying 'agree to disagree' is the answer
I no longer eat meat but i am no veggie..the choice to stop was done for me when i just couldn't swallow a slice of meat in a meal, kept thinking 'this was running around not too long ago',been a few weeks now and i feel fine
My partner still eats meat and i make all his meals so i am handling raw meat, i say a little thankyou in my head as i'm preparing the meal, then we sit and enjoy
As for hunting..well not my thing makes me uncomfortable thinking about it. i dont know anything about it so will keep my opinion to myself

much love

misericordia
17th November 2011, 17:10
Blufire I did not as far as I can tell make any 'hateful' remarks.

I think this is something that will go round in circles and there are two very distinct groups of people who will no doubt always continue to differ. I suppose some have 'woken' up to the vegetarian and spiritual questions, others haven't. A debate between these two camps will always be unproductive. Like you say very succinctly, we come from an emotional place not a practical one. Trust me the amount of ridicule I get for being 'over sensitive' 'compassionate' etc, it's a constant battle for me and I've found myself in the dark pits of depression as a result. It's almost as if i feel all the suffering of the planet and it's a living hell at times. (this comes from a person that as a child killed chickens and ate them)

Blufire it saddens me greatly to hear of your situation and i cannot even dare to think how difficult it truly is. My point was simply that our 3d predilection for killing (etc) is what caused the issue in the first place.. and the same mentality will not fix it. Yes call that a 'lofty ideal' and I know that will do nothing to solve the problem but it's the point I was trying to make.. i'm sorry I don't have the answer but I was not trying to be hateful or negative.

Love to you and please know that I hold immense gratitude for all that you do on your farm.


Hello Panopticon. Sorry if you thought I had directed a post at you.. I had not, so apologies for the misunderstanding but you haven't offended me. Thank you very much for the information and I don't necessarily agree with the Singer utilitarian doctrine.

shamanseeker
17th November 2011, 17:14
The world is in a mess because man has been interfering too long with his culling and wildlife safari killing and taking species from his homeland to other countries. If nature is left to itself, it sorts the problem out itself. The birth rate of one species depends on the numbers of other species. But as there is enough room for all the deer in northern Italy, I just don't believe there isn't room in America for all the deer there or that in a country as big as Australia, there are too many kangaroos. There are no predators for elephants but I don't think Africans habitually ate elephants! When animals are slaughtered in large numbers there are always economic and/or political motives.
Where I live, they are obsessed with 'cleaning' the woods as they call it. They are forever cutting down trees and flowers along the footpaths. They say that if they don't do this, there won't be any room or clear space between the spindly trees. The result is terrible land erosion, landslides claiming human life every year! In Tuscany, they have a policy of non-intervention in their woods and forests. I visited one of these forests. It was spectacularly beautiful. The trees are enormous and because of the shade of the canopies of the trees, the land around the trees is clear, and the trees are strong and stable. When an animal, even a deer, dies, they leave it there so that it's dead body composes into the earth and enriches it as nature always intended.

anklebiter
17th November 2011, 23:23
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_EocsxyMGrPE/SlHhjcLTWPI/AAAAAAAAAF8/j6ApF_3Qs-E/s400/Kwai+Chang+Caine.jpg

Caine did not eat meat. Must be something to it.

I myself am not at that point and will continue to eat meat, but I respect those who choose not to. I also request that those who have chosen not to eat meat not push their views/reasonings upon me, as I do not push my views/reasonings upon them.

Lord Sidious
17th November 2011, 23:43
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_EocsxyMGrPE/SlHhjcLTWPI/AAAAAAAAAF8/j6ApF_3Qs-E/s400/Kwai+Chang+Caine.jpg

Caine did not eat meat. Must be something to it.

I myself am not at that point and will continue to eat meat, but I respect those who choose not to. I also request that those who have chosen not to eat meat not push their views/reasonings upon me, as I do not push my views/reasonings upon them.

Not me nugget, I try not to push views on people in this vein.

modwiz
17th November 2011, 23:54
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_EocsxyMGrPE/SlHhjcLTWPI/AAAAAAAAAF8/j6ApF_3Qs-E/s400/Kwai+Chang+Caine.jpg

Caine did not eat meat. Must be something to it.

I myself am not at that point and will continue to eat meat, but I respect those who choose not to. I also request that those who have chosen not to eat meat not push their views/reasonings upon me, as I do not push my views/reasonings upon them.

Not me nugget, I try not to push views on people in this vein.

Good call as most attempts are in vain. :p

It seems silly season and hunting season are coinciding this year. :wacko:

anklebiter
17th November 2011, 23:57
Not me nugget, I try not to push views on people in this vein.

No sir, I was not referring to you - but to some of the more vocal members who keep trying to push their views in this thread.

DeDukshyn
18th November 2011, 00:02
So ... we have a choice for meat eaters ... kill your own food and support your eating habits via your own volition and energy - allowing Gaia to guide the hunt, lay down respect and love for your animal and ask if any are willing to sacrifice for your needs, or, continue to support Big Pharma/Agra in their pursuit of reducing and controlling human populations via mass murder and genocide with your hard earned dollars via the birth to death tortured life of a whole collective of genetically mutated, drugged up, hormoned up, cancer inducing animals doomed to express nothing but fear and have those energy residues be a part of our collective.

Organic meat? I think hunting food and supplies for yourself from nature is far more respectable to Mother Nature than farming and harvesting animals that have NO CHOICE.

Vegetarian? Not everyone is one and I think even some vegetarians are really getting sick of the "holier than thou" judgements. We are all life - we are all made of the same spiritual material whether you are plant or animal - the form matters far less.

So make good use of that deer Jagman, and know that you may well be making a very valid choice. It is not my place to judge or not anyone's decision but one really has to consider the above before making their comments - there's a bigger picture than just "a deer gets killed" and it is easy to lose sight of the perspective if you let emotions do your talking.

music
18th November 2011, 09:33
I am in a spot where I don't want to eat meat anymore, so I have bought some products to replace the meat.
I can't and won't abide cruelty and the meat industry is built on it.
It's funny, I was trained and conditioned to kill men, yet the idea of killing animals makes me squeamish.
Maybe because men have the chance to fight back.
Anyways, for me, I wouldn't participate in hunting, not even for ''culling'' as I have no need.
If others want to, that is their issue to deal with.
All said in a non judgmental, loving tone.
Or some s**t. :p

I have recently gone back to not eating meat as well. It depends where we are, and no one is right or wrong based solely on dietary choice. We could argue that if we are going to eat meat, we should at least kill a beast by our own hands, because until we have done this, our choice to eat meat is not fully informed.

If we eat meat, it is kinder to our bodies, to exploited farmers in underdeveloped countries, and to the planet, to eat little of it. Excessive meat consumption makes sense from neither a spiritual, nor a resource management perspective.

shamanseeker
18th November 2011, 14:06
Not me nugget, I try not to push views on people in this vein.

No sir, I was not referring to you - but to some of the more vocal members who keep trying to push their views in this thread.

Hi,
I'm not pushing people not to eat meat, I am criticizing the cruel treatment of animals and the false excuses of hunters to cull large numbers of them.

thunder24
18th November 2011, 14:37
you bunch of bug eaters... do insects have "more" sentience then carrots? If so you are all murderers, regardless if you mean to inhale those bugs or not...you still killed them, i.e. a down grade from murder to bugslaughter. Thing is your still guilty.

How many of you that don't eat "meat", would if it was all you had? Situations determine actions a great deal of the time...so before you have an opinion on others lives, walk a mile in their shoes. I know people on this forum that are living in shelters...
just because they have access to the internet doesn't mean they can afford not to eat spam; they also have to take the oppurntunity where they can to get food... Just consider it.

For the past two winters, me and housemates thought we were going to starve for lack of money for grocery to buy chemicaled up vegetables. Both winters a friend gave us a deer...that is the only way we made it.


Like Fred said there r bigger Fish to Fry(that is figure of speech for you vege lovers. don't get upset).
While you all are sitting in your warm houses with full bellies of vegetable stew, think about those in gaza right now fighting for existence.
Think about the Kurdish people in Turkey and Iraq being oppressed from their right of existence.
Think about the neighbor kids that are going to school hungry and don't eat dinner before bed,

Here's a suggestion....if you don't want animals to die for food, take those starving kids some fruit baskets and boxes of vegetables.....all of us can do this and make a bigger difference in the world then getting upset over hunters.

peace

jagman
18th November 2011, 16:27
http://thumbp5-ne1.thumb.mail.yahoo.com/tn?sid=13510803585518449&mid=AM9XimIAABW1TsZ8OgnuQnuL6uU&midoffset=1_66423&partid=4&f=1211&fid=Inbox&w=637&h=480&httperr=1
http://thumbp5-ne1.thumb.mail.yahoo.com/tn?sid=13510803585518449&mid=AM9XimIAABW1TsZ8OgnuQnuL6uU&midoffset=1_66423&partid=5&f=1211&fid=Inbox&w=637&h=480&httperr=1
http://thumbp5-ne1.thumb.mail.yahoo.com/tn?sid=13510803585518449&mid=AM9XimIAABW1TsZ8OgnuQnuL6uU&midoffset=1_66423&partid=6&f=1211&fid=Inbox&w=361&h=480&httperr=1
http://thumbp5-ne1.thumb.mail.yahoo.com/tn?sid=13510803585518449&mid=AM9XimIAABW1TsZ8OgnuQnuL6uU&midoffset=1_66423&partid=2&f=1211&fid=Inbox&w=361&h=480&httperr=1
http://thumbp5-ne1.thumb.mail.yahoo.com/tn?sid=13510803585518449&mid=AM9XimIAABW1TsZ8OgnuQnuL6uU&midoffset=1_66423&partid=3&f=1211&fid=Inbox&w=637&h=480&httperr=1
http://thumbp5-ne1.thumb.mail.yahoo.com/tn?sid=13510803585518449&mid=AM9XimIAABW1TsZ8OgnuQnuL6uU&midoffset=1_66423&partid=4&f=1211&fid=Inbox&w=637&h=480&httperr=1
http://thumbp5-ne1.thumb.mail.yahoo.com/tn?sid=13510803585518449&mid=AM9XimIAABW1TsZ8OgnuQnuL6uU&midoffset=1_66423&partid=7&f=1211&fid=Inbox&w=361&h=480&httperr=1
Just some of my pics from my trip. By the way that handsome guy in orange is me lol

Peace of Mind
18th November 2011, 17:39
Ahhh, the endless debate, lol.

I'll only join in to give some people something to consider. I don't judge because there has to be examples or else we would not recognize what's wicked and whats righteous... as my Cherokee blackfoot Grandparents used to say (whom were the first to tell me not to eat meat). So, in earnest...I thank everyone for being that example and being right on time.

Animals and humans have a nervous system; since vegetation does not… how can anyone provide proof that they have feelings? There is evidence that plants respond to audio stimuli…well, so does everything else in this realm since everything here is made up of vibrations/frequency. I think the difference is in our observation of water. Water (IMO) is also a being and it resides in all organic matter. With a vibrational device, It’s not hard at all to stimulate water and everything water is found in. Besides, if God/the almighty/the universe/the creator gave plants feelings, it would be seen as malicious…as they would be able to see just how much control they actually have. Humans need emotions/feelings to help them evolve through their free will by making choices in their environments. Vegetation has very little control over their environment so they remain predictable (Clean the air, beautify the world, and nourish the inhabitants by offering sustenance and medicine in exchange for our carbon and waste). There’s a give and take relationship here. Animals can’t survive without vegetation from the Earth and foliage will probably cease to exist if there wasn’t any carbon and animals/insects preserving them.

If we weren’t suppose to “live off the land”… defensive evolutions would have kicked in by now…seeing that mostly all our edible vegetation was here long before man. Yet, we witness animals evolving through the cruelty of man.

Some people always bring up the vague opinion of Plants having feelings whenever they make attempts at justifying their lust for dead flesh. Not only is it a poor argument, it is based on speculation solely driven by scientist working for GUESS WHO. So, why would you trust in anyone else’s unproven facts? Can you prove what they claim by presenting the actual evidence yourself? We all can clearly see that animals do not want to be eaten. No one has yet proven to me that plants feel the same way. When vegetation speaks out, I will listen whole heartily…just like I do with all the other creatures here. I’m not afraid to make needed adjustments in my life. Life is only temporary here so I’ll live it to the fullest without hurting any other creature here living their lives out. Meat can be substituted. Protein is in beans and nuts; B12 is found in dirt, sea vegetables and most sport/health drinks. If you don’t trust those drinks…why trust anything the FDA says is good for you? I also incline to think that we really don’t need much of anything that is said to be a necessity. Consumerism can be seen in just about everything.

Cut down a plant it will not struggle, it will give you fruits to take with you…hoping you will enjoy it and plant the seed somewhere. It would be a waste to have tons of rotten fruit lying under a tree knowing there is no chance another will grow there. But, if you cut down an animal it will fight for its life to live… just like you. So what makes you/us more deserving of life than them? Why kill them when you/we don’t need to? Humans created the imbalance in the environments and culling or depopulating any animal is just more evidence of our blind evil ways. To be truthful, I think I’ll fight alongside them before many humans because I see them as brilliant caretakers of the planet, while many flesh eaters are selfish destroyers thinking of only their own temporary existence. Why waste perfectly good species to nourish another that will most likely do nothing to show it’s appreciation of life? If you take a life you should use that sacrifice to save others, but how often does that happen? Not much and perhaps that is due to the negative energy (fear, helplessness, anger, etc…) they consumed. You are what you eat and it’s not hard for me to tell.

As of now, I hardly eat and when I do it’s usually fruits, beans and grains and sometimes in the form of a smoothie. My appetite for food has diminished greatly over the last year, yet I don’t suffer from it at all. I sleep less, have more energy, don’t get sick, and look younger then people 10 or more years younger than me. I understand that this is a touchy issue and I’m not here to persuade anyone. Everyone is held accountable for their own actions. This is for those willing to consider. No judgement here, I'm the least of yor worries...

Peace

Centauro
18th November 2011, 17:53
The killing art

Have ever look into their eyes?
Have you ever felt their heart?
That innocence can't be split apart
Please tell me what is in you heart?
Can't understand the killing art
Those who kill the living stars
Will never have the peace of love and calm
Some day you will see the light
That killing is not an art
And do not belong
Within your Heart


Roland el Centauro

13th Warrior
18th November 2011, 17:59
Would you judge a wolf as harshly?

Limor Wolf
18th November 2011, 18:26
Thats a beautiful way to verbalize what is not possible to be said when being emotionally overloaded. my deepest thanks to you, peace of mind,the tones and the rationality of your words might reach to the hearts and logic of the listeners.


I sincerely hope that there are those who are willing to consider.at the same time I am aware,as you said,that everyone is held accountable for their own actions.



Originally posted by 13th warrior:" Would you judge a wolf as harshly? "

I am curious to understand ,what do you find 'harsh' in peace of minds words?
(no offence intended just curiosity)

How can it be possible to compare between a wolf who has a predator's digestive system and completely different psychological structure to that of a man? different possibilities,different options..

What we are able to compare between those two is that we both have nervous sytem,emotions like joy and fear and we both suffer pain.

However they do not judge.

And we shoot them

13th Warrior
18th November 2011, 18:33
Thats a beautiful way to verbalize what is not possible to be said when being emotionally overloaded. my deepest thanks to you, peace of mind,the tones and the rationality of your words might reach to the hearts and logic of the listeners.


I sincerely hope that there are those who are willing to consider.at the same time I am aware,as you said,that everyone is held accountable for their own actions.



Originally posted by 13th warrior:" Would you judge a wolf as harshly? "

I am curious to understand ,what do you find 'harsh' in peace of minds words?
(no offence intended just curiosity)

How can it be possible to compare between a wolf who has a predator's digestive system and completely different psychological structure to that of a man? different possibilities,different options..

What we are able to compare between those two is that we both have nervous sytem,emotions like joy and fear and we both suffer pain.

However they do not judge.

And we shoot them

I would have quoted Peace of Mind's post if my comment was directed solely at them.

Listen, you are too busy trying to be right to absorb anything that I've posted; you cannot fill a cup that is already full.

Limor Wolf
18th November 2011, 18:39
I am curious to understand ,what do you find 'harsh' in peace of minds words?
(no offence intended just curiosity)

I would have quoted Peace of Mind's post if my comment was directed solely at them.

Listen, you are too busy trying to be right to absorb anything that I've posted; you cannot fill a cup that is already full.

I guess both our cups are full.I have checked once and again what is the filling of my cup,and if you did the same, than we are both in a very good situation.

Blessings

13th Warrior
18th November 2011, 18:44
How can it be possible to compare between a wolf who has a predator's digestive system and completely different psychological structure to that of a man? different possibilities,different options..

What we are able to compare between those two is that we both have nervous sytem,emotions like joy and fear and we both suffer pain.


Are we all that different from the wolf?


However they do not judge. We should be so evolved...

¤=[Post Update]=¤




I guess both our cups are full.I have checked once and again what is the filling of my cup,and if you did the same, than we are both in a very good situation.

Blessings

I haven't judged anyone for their choice; can you say the same?

Limor Wolf
18th November 2011, 18:52
I haven't judged anyone for their choice; can you say the same?

I am speaking in the name of the animals who are the victims here,not at all about what you should do or I should do.it is about them.can you see the difference?

13th Warrior
18th November 2011, 18:55
I am speaking in the name of the animals,not at all about what you should do or I should do.it is about them.can you see the difference?

Who has chosen you to speak for them?

They speak for themselves if you'd take the time to listen!

Limor Wolf
18th November 2011, 18:56
My conscience did, they might speak,however,not many listen...but lets leave it.At this point,I have the feeling that two deaf people can have a better conversation than we do.

~ All the best ~

blufire
18th November 2011, 19:02
Limor,

In your 38 years how much time and what at what level have you experienced animals and wildlife? And what knowledge did you acquire that would make you assume that you accurately speak for them?

13th Warrior
18th November 2011, 19:02
I am speaking in the name of the animals who are the victims here,not at all about what you should do or I should do.it is about them.can you see the difference?

You must be talking about domestic animals?

This thread is about hunting wild animals.

The treatment of domestic live stock is an altogether different topic and does not belong on this thread.

Limor Wolf
18th November 2011, 19:05
I will leave it to that.Thank you gentlemans!

Paul
18th November 2011, 19:11
Just some of my pics from my trip. By the way that handsome guy in orange is me lol
None of the rest of us can see your pics, jagman. You linked to images in a private account of yours :).

(Hope it was a nice trip!)

blufire
18th November 2011, 19:13
And Oh . . . . . on the wolf thing and all us blood thirsty meat eaters killing them . . . . . on our farm in Kansas there are three wolves living happily in the woods across the road. They are protected carefully by the meat eaters and hunters in the area.

And I see Pixiedust is reading this thread. She is my daughter and can vouch for what I say.

And by the way I am a woman.

Fred Steeves
18th November 2011, 19:15
Sorry to butt back in here, but I just can't take it any more. Lord Sidious wields carrots in certain situations, but as a last resort I can always fall back on the old Wheels on the Bus hint...Do please watch, it's a great little video...:)
fnupL42gmF4

PixieDust
18th November 2011, 19:18
Ok so I've been watching this thread for several days with interest as the meat vs no meat debate is always interesting to me.

What I'm about to say is MY opinions and MY thoughts alone. If you are offended by them then thats on you and you can deal with it however you choose.

I believe plants are more evolved than humans.

think about that for a second. think about what you do when you meditate. I know there are different ways to meditate but usually its sitting still and focusing on energies and listening whatever you may be doing. Now think about a plant.....get it?

plants communicate through energy anyone who has never had a conversation with a plant i suggest you go outside and try and find one that will talk to you.

Then some may argue "well i only take the fruits of the plant so the plant itself is fine and happy to give me the fruits" ok but youre taking food away from animals. Endangering their lively hood because you took their food. AND youre not following the cycle of plant life. if you were then youd take a crap outside and burry it so the seeds could grow. If you do that then great. Do you take a seed from every fruit or bean you eat to replant? i doubt it. i know i dont.

Now on to meat.

I believe animals are more evolved than humans.

i know..wtf pixie? right? think about it. do they start wars and kill each other mindlessly? no they live harmoniously with each other. yes there is death but without death there cant be rebirth. We may have a more complicated brain and appear to be more evolved... we drive cars we have systems and electricity blah blah. If thats what you call evolved then i feel sorry for you.

all we have done is manage to alienate ourselves and enslave ourselves. We are naturally herd animals yet we have no herd mentality. Ever wonder why girls all go to the bathroom together? safety in numbers. herd mentality ;)

every time i read on here about what people want to achieve... the enlightment and peace and 5th demension or what not it reminds me of an animals exsistence. peacefully in harmony with each other living off the land...

i connect better with animals then most humans. i feel for them. i also eat them. but i respect them.

id prefer to eat organic farm animals that lived a happy life and served their purpose or hunted food that helps with overpopulation. but right now its hard to afford that and i cant grow it nor do i have the capability to go out and hunt my own meat.

I agree with the phrase you are what you eat. and i prefer to eat happy meat and happy vegitables. do you really think the vegitables are happy in the grocery store? mass produced with no physical contact with loving energy or one on one communication? when i had a garden i watered each plant individually and talked to them all while i did. i planted very late in the season and moved them after they had already rooted. my mom told me they probably wouldnt live or produce because of all the stress they went through but they were beautiful plants and produced a ton of fruits for me.

one more thing hit me while i was reading. take the theory that we have all these different alien bloodlines in us. what if some races are more previlent in some than others. say a race who doesnt do meat well. our bodies are designed to eat meat and be predators. we have forward facing eyes, if we were ment to eat only grass our eyes would be more on the side like all herbavores to watch for predators. we have canine teeth to tear meat. we do not have 4 stomaches to process grass. we have one. that processes meat just fine (for most) again this goes back to maybe different bloodlines are surfacing more in some then others and thats why some are so adiment on you need meat and others are saying no vegitation is just fine. so just agree that youre different?

there are many types of protienes and a certain protien we need is only found in red meat. you cannot substitute it with mushrooms or beans/nuts.

One more thing... animals dont eat meat. they eat intestines. so actually we should be eating the instestines of the animal not the muscles.

peace.

13th Warrior
18th November 2011, 19:25
Ok so I've been watching this thread for several days with interest as the meat vs no meat debate is always interesting to me.

What I'm about to say is MY opinions and MY thoughts alone. If you are offended by them then thats on you and you can deal with it however you choose.

I believe plants are more evolved than humans.

think about that for a second. think about what you do when you meditate. I know there are different ways to meditate but usually its sitting still and focusing on energies and listening whatever you may be doing. Now think about a plant.....get it?

plants communicate through energy anyone who has never had a conversation with a plant i suggest you go outside and try and find one that will talk to you.

Then some may argue "well i only take the fruits of the plant so the plant itself is fine and happy to give me the fruits" ok but youre taking food away from animals. Endangering their lively hood because you took their food. AND youre not following the cycle of plant life. if you were then youd take a crap outside and burry it so the seeds could grow. If you do that then great. Do you take a seed from every fruit or bean you eat to replant? i doubt it. i know i dont.

Now on to meat.

I believe animals are more evolved than humans.

i know..wtf pixie? right? think about it. do they start wars and kill each other mindlessly? no they live harmoniously with each other. yes there is death but without death there cant be rebirth. We may have a more complicated brain and appear to be more evolved... we drive cars we have systems and electricity blah blah. If thats what you call evolved then i feel sorry for you.

all we have done is manage to alienate ourselves and enslave ourselves. We are naturally herd animals yet we have no herd mentality. Ever wonder why girls all go to the bathroom together? safety in numbers. herd mentality ;)

every time i read on here about what people want to achieve... the enlightment and peace and 5th demension or what not it reminds me of an animals exsistence. peacefully in harmony with each other living off the land...

i connect better with animals then most humans. i feel for them. i also eat them. but i respect them.

id prefer to eat organic farm animals that lived a happy life and served their purpose or hunted food that helps with overpopulation. but right now its hard to afford that and i cant grow it nor do i have the capability to go out and hunt my own meat.

I agree with the phrase you are what you eat. and i prefer to eat happy meat and happy vegitables. do you really think the vegitables are happy in the grocery store? mass produced with no physical contact with loving energy or one on one communication? when i had a garden i watered each plant individually and talked to them all while i did. i planted very late in the season and moved them after they had already rooted. my mom told me they probably wouldnt live or produce because of all the stress they went through but they were beautiful plants and produced a ton of fruits for me.

one more thing hit me while i was reading. take the theory that we have all these different alien bloodlines in us. what if some races are more previlent in some than others. say a race who doesnt do meat well. our bodies are designed to eat meat and be predators. we have forward facing eyes, if we were ment to eat only grass our eyes would be more on the side like all herbavores to watch for predators. we have canine teeth to tear meat. we do not have 4 stomaches to process grass. we have one. that processes meat just fine (for most) again this goes back to maybe different bloodlines are surfacing more in some then others and thats why some are so adiment on you need meat and others are saying no vegitation is just fine. so just agree that youre different?

there are many types of protienes and a certain protien we need is only found in red meat. you cannot substitute it with mushrooms or beans/nuts.

One more thing... animals dont eat meat. they eat intestines. so actually we should be eating the instestines of the animal not the muscles.

peace.

+10

Thank you for your perspective!

I disagree with you on a few things but, that's ok.

Lord Sidious
18th November 2011, 19:30
And Oh . . . . . on the wolf thing and all us blood thirsty meat eaters killing them . . . . . on our farm in Kansas there are three wolves living happily in the woods across the road. They are protected carefully by the meat eaters and hunters in the area.

And I see Pixiedust is reading this thread. She is my daughter and can vouch for what I say.

And by the way I am a woman.

I don't see any reason that the members here would not believe you.

Peace of Mind
18th November 2011, 21:28
I agree that some animals and foliage may be more evolve than us, simple observation shows me this. However we have/were giving the intelligence to adapt to and care for EVERYTHING on this planet. But we seem to be failing for strange reasons.

There is enough vegetation to go around, we can also plant seeds to make sure of it. I’m not going to get into the bloodlines thing as I see no proof in it, I only see humans with the same organs and the same red fluid pumping through their bodies. The only true difference in us is our ways of thinking (which is fine to a point). I believe our free will and intellect affords us the opportunities to advance spiritually. Living life without choices will not only seem boring... you will not grow. The Human body is very advance and adaptable, history shows us this. I guess I’m one of the lucky ones and should feel privilege that my body is able to adapt to what my mind projects, as I’m starting to see many are having problems in doing the same. So in this regard, please forgive my ignorance.

I’m wondering if people ever wonder why animals eat flesh of others...could this be a part of their evolution because food has become scarce due to the uncontrolled overpopulation of selfish humans, therefore they became savage. And since this is a place of open minds... did anyone here ever consider that some animals were genetically reproduced...as we see in Greek mythology and Egyptology. All I/we truly know is that we can adapt and change anything we want.

A while ago a Jehovah Witness handed me a pamphlet. On the front of it was the most beautiful thing i probably ever saw. It was a picture of humans (all races) living along side each other. Tigers/lions playing with children, elephants giving rides to wild dogs, monkeys hanging from trees handing the people below fruit, and the land was very fertile with lush foliage I’ve never saw before. I thought to myself “how can this ever be”. As time passed I realized that humans were consistently destroying the planet and probably did this for thousands of years...destroying certain vegetation that certain animals ate...as a result they evolved into flesh eaters. It might be true because some monkeys (today) are turning into flesh eaters due to human’s irresponsible ways. Maybe Humans are the ones that need to be culled (as the NWO suggests). I mean, how fair/right is it for us to decide just who/what needs to be controlled...especially when it’s clear (at least in my eyes) that we are the ones that are out of control?

I know how hard it is to give up flesh eating; it was no easy tasks for me. However, all of my greatest sacrifices blessed me with great rewards. We are here to learn, care for, and prosper...I doubt it was meant to be the opposite. Animals may not have the ability to do it quickly (like humans can) but they always give their best efforts... and we should too.

Peace

DeDukshyn
19th November 2011, 02:02
Interesting thread - I like all the varied views.

I think what may explain all the controversy on the subject (as it is a touchy one) may be due to evolutionary process. I don't mean darwinism, but the natural tendency of a species to progress and adapt - I feel we are a little different in that our evolution is driven by our consciousness more than enviroment. Let's face it, humans have faced hard times in the last 50,000 years - without hunting and eating animal flesh none of us would be here. We are at the present moment clearly omnivores - our teeth were designed for processing meat as are our digestive systems. However, we are far less reliant on these abilities over time, even genetically we are having fewer teeth in our mouths and smaller jaws - having less than historically typical number of teeth is becoming quite common.

I'm going to go way out and say that we are evolving into a species that does not need to rely on "physical" energy, but one that can get it's energy from the ethers (Source, astral plane, higher self, subtle realm - whatever is the correct metaphor). I think it may be possible that vegetarianism is a natural progression toward this from flesh eating. The changes in our mouths and jaw seem to be supporting this, as well as our culture and reasoning - as rather than our western meat eating lifestyle influencing the east - we are becoming more and more vegetarian.

So I supposed I opened a whole can-o-worms - I didn't mean that vegetarians are more "advanced" or "evolved" --- my intention was to point out this likely just a part of a natural progression occuring in humanity and we just really need to be tolerant of one anothers views and ensure to stick the views that we believe in. Sure, those are always changing and morphing every year, day, experience even ...... this is Life ;)

Black Panther
19th November 2011, 21:05
Sorry to butt back in here, but I just can't take it any more. Lord Sidious wields carrots in certain situations, but as a last resort I can always fall back on the old Wheels on the Bus hint...Do please watch, it's a great little video...:)
fnupL42gmF4

I haven't read much of the posts, but I really enjoyed the Wheels on the Bus.
Thank you, Fred!

WhiteFeather
19th November 2011, 22:27
I don't hunt animals but if I necessairly had to, I would utilize a Bow and Arrow for the spiritual essence of a kill. I like the old fashioned way I guess. A Good Ole Bow and Arrow would work for me I Think. And a Bow that's made by hand as well, my hand!

http://willowhavenoutdoor.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/creek-hickory-bow.jpg

DNA
20th November 2011, 04:44
I am speaking in the name of the animals who are the victims here,not at all about what you should do or I should do.it is about them.can you see the difference?

I believe spirit has a plan. I believe animals have a soul and incarnate just as humans do aiming for a perfected place in the body of the Tao.
It is this plan that seems to have incorporated specific time lines that be dedicated to one species or another.
I'm not sure of the exact amount of time, but animals have had free reign on this planet with no human interference for over a hundred million years.
Contrast that to the recent impact humans have made on the lives of animals and we are only talking about a few hundred years.

I think vegatarianism is compatible for some, and not others. Myself being one of those it is not compatible with.
I'm far more concerned with habitat being made available for animals than a few getting killed in that habitat via hunting.
If anything, you should concentrate your empathy and powers of intent on devolopment companies, a single housing devolopment kills thousands if not millions of animals by depriving them of a home and food.

TPTB have won a convincing blow when they take such gifted minds as yours and aim you in the direction of their choosing by spoon feeding you bambie movies as a devolopmental child.

The enemy is not an individual hunter, helping to support habitat by purchasing license, tags and supporting the hunting economy.
The enemy is Mcdonalds who buys beef from South America, thus supporting the destruction of the rain forest.
The enemies are logging companies, housing devolopment companies, natural resource frakkers, pipe line builders, ocean fishing companies, ocean oil drilling deep water rig companies.

Your energies are simply missplaced if you think this sole individual on a hunting trip is worth your time in protesting.
He is actually doing more good than harm to the animals by giving the greed of the world a reason for letting the animals keep their habitat.

DNA
20th November 2011, 04:47
I don't hunt animals but if I necessairly had to, I would utilize a Bow and Arrow for the spiritual essence of a kill. I like the old fashioned way I guess. A Good Ole Bow and Arrow would work for me I Think. And a Bow that's made by hand as well, my hand!

I think you'd use a stick of dynamite if you had a starving family at home depending on you.

Limor Wolf
13th February 2012, 17:41
"In the award-winning documentary THE WITNESS, Eddie Lama explains how he feared and avoided animals for most of his life, until the love of a kitten opened his heart, inspiring him to rescue abandoned animals and bring his message of compassion to the streets of New York. With humor and sincerity, Eddie tells the story of his remarkable change in consciousness.."

This movie speaks for itself -


http://www.tribeofheart.org/sr/sr_witscreeningroom_english.htm

Camilo
13th February 2012, 17:49
How barbaric some of us still are. Hunting was ok in the dawn of civilization.

sleepy
13th February 2012, 18:34
xxxxx xxxxxx

Limor Wolf
13th February 2012, 18:46
Hello Sleepy :)

I have seen no personal judgement here. and no accusations. simply raising awarness to other's creatures suffering.

We are not in war here, we all try to do what we can, I can only answer for myself a 'no' to all your questions.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aFqRCc08V6k&feature=player_embedded#!

sleepy
13th February 2012, 18:52
xxxxx xxxxxx