Fate vs Free Will

[Mike]

i struggle with this. i've heard various explanations but have never been able to successfully reconcile the two.

right when i discover an all-encompassing theory that satisfies all my curiosities, my yapping brain starts "what if-ing" and i inevitably find a hole in the new paradigm - a question it cannot satisfactorily answer. and then i'm right back to square 1.

there have been times that i've grasped this concept for what seems like a cosmic split second, my mind-body-soul emitting a collective sigh of relief, and then it slips thru my hands like sand the second i start intellectualizing my epiphany.

so what is it guys? fate? free-will? an alchemic admixture of both is the likely answer, but how do we account for all the stubborn paradoxes?

someone please help me make sense of this so i can go back to thinking of ex-girlfriends i screwed up with instead of this maddening dichotomy when i'm trying to sleep at night...

[pharoah21]

It's a tough one. Maybe it's not for us to figure out, I mean..........did these guys dressed up as female nurses get a choice?

lCIVdv5tn2A

In terms of the whole ex gf thing, as long as you've learned your lessons, history should not repeat itself, you can look back at seemingly horrible situations and laugh once you've learned.

I personally believe fate does come in at certain points in our life, like meeting that girl at the stores when you're 24 who eventually became your wife.

Like a tattoo, the outline (fate) is done, we are the ones that do the shading/colour.

[Mark]

Hi, I posted to this topic recently here (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?35562-Manifesting-Creating-a-positive-life.&p=365313#post365313):


Hi. Great thread. First, about predestination, this is the way I look at it. There is a difference between fate and destiny. Fate is our free-will choice, the decisions we make every day. Destiny is the inevitable outcome of our life-path trajectory. We have the free-will to make choices and we do, that will lead to different outcomes, but these outcomes occur within an overall context that is relatively restricted when compared to the infinity of potentialities in existence in a quantum creation. When I think of predestiny, predictions, prophecy, the end of the movie, Men In Black comes to mind. Funny, right?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=OKnpPCQyUec
Source: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=OKnpPCQyUec

I interpret this scene as an accurate depicition of scale, As Above, So Below. I believe that as you descend through different levels of materiality, you find the same relationship with us being the giants. In addition, the following understanding of time and space and dimensionality complete the picture:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=uY_ZgAvXsuw
Source: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=uY_ZgAvXsuw

Together, the following understanding is implicit: From without, all timelines can be seen within the 'bubble' of the physical materiality of 3D reality. That means, past, present and future are available simultaneously. Somehow, some people are able to see outside of the 'bubble', and bring back the 'reality' that they see at any given moment. This potentiality is just that, one of a relatively infinite array, given the local restrictions upon possibility within the physical conditions of our particular universe.

Once you 'know' a prediction of prophecy, odds are that, depending upon the particulars of the prophecy, the amount of detail, its importance within a life or within a cultural or planetary context, is subject to change based upon the ability of one person or a group of people to change it.

So Free Will, our ability to change our fate, is our reality. But so is Destiny, as the aspect of our relentless course through space and across time, is also our reality. They are not mutually exclusive. At least, that's how I see it.

An example of Destiny versus fate might be Simba, from the Lion King. He was destined to be King, but he was fated to piss it all away singing hakuna matata for a short while. He chose his fate, but could not run from his destiny.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ejEVczA8PLU
Source: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ejEVczA8PLU

None of us can run from ourselves.

[modwiz]

Fate is partially allowing life to carry you down the cosmic stream and free will is putting a paddle in the water. Free will can and does impact fate. I would say we create our fate with our free will. Then their is destiny often confused with fate.

IMO Destiny is the purpose of incarnation and fate is the sh*t that happens to you riding down that stream carrying you to your destiny. Free will is the the adding different flavors to ones destiny and maybe even changing it. Destiny and karma seem to have a push/pull kind of effect going on. Free will can impact karma and thereby effect destiny.

Bottom line, we have a huge role in our fate. Decisions and actions are key to trajectories that are set up.

I may have to change this post at some point. The information floating around my head is not completely happy with this post. If you thank it, you may want to check it to see it you still align with it. :o

[Mike]

i just can't get over how you managed to fit cross-dressing nurses into the discussion pharoah;)

i'm deliriously tired at the moment, so i can't tell if that skit is as funny as i thought it was or if i'm just punchy due to the fatigue. i'll let you know tmrrw.

[Spartacus]

someone please help me make sense of this so i can go back to thinking of ex-girlfriends i screwed up with instead of this maddening dichotomy when i'm trying to sleep at night...

Try going to sleep thinking of new girlfriends you would like to screw. ;)

[Ellisa]

Chinaski--- this may help you to return to ex-girl-friend pondering.
It's an old one and I don't know the author.

There was a young man who said 'Damn!
At last i've found out that I am
A creature that moves
In predestined grooves,
In fact not a bus, I'm a tram!

[pharoah21]

i just can't get over how you managed to fit cross-dressing nurses into the discussion pharoah;)

i'm deliriously tired at the moment, so i can't tell if that skit is as funny as i thought it was or if i'm just punchy due to the fatigue. i'll let you know tmrrw.

Its hilarious, I decided to edit and add a little something more relevant beneath the video ;)

[Mike]

so Rahkyt and Modwiz, you both seem to be saying that there is a difference between fate and destiny? that's a new wrinkle. interesting.

i'm curious though - just how much does free-will factor in? i look back on my life and i'm quite certain that if given the same opportunity 100 times over, i'd still likely make the same decisions. there were just certain situations i was ill-equipped to deal with at certain times and i can't even imagine the scenario's playing out any other way. i didn't have the tools i possess now to make wise decisions.

i wonder if it isn't a bit more nuanced that one vs the other...in other words, perhaps during certain periods of one's life a predestined course of action will unfold regardless of choice or free-will, where in other scenarios free-will is dominant. i say this because of the previous paragraph, and also because i feel at this moment in time to have much more control over my life and destiny than i ever have in the past.

just some ponderings...

¤=[Post Update]=¤




someone please help me make sense of this so i can go back to thinking of ex-girlfriends i screwed up with instead of this maddening dichotomy when i'm trying to sleep at night...

Try going to sleep thinking of new girlfriends you would like to screw. ;)

a wonderful suggestion lol!

[Mike]

"none of us can run from ourselves"

i like that Rahkyt.

[Mark]

so Rahkyt and Modwiz, you both seem to be saying that there is a difference between fate and destiny? that's a new wrinkle. interesting.

It`s actually very old. This is how the Sumerians thought of it. Or, at least, how they explained the Annunaki conception of agency versus time, circumstance and free will.


i'm curious though - just how much does free-will factor in? i look back on my life and i'm quite certain that if given the same opportunity 100 times over, i'd still likely make the same decisions. there were just certain situations i was ill-equipped to deal with at certain times and i can't even imagine the scenario's playing out any other way. i didn't have the tools i possess now to make wise decisions.

Free will seems to be everything. I like the way the ancients put it: destiny is akin to the movement of planets in their orbits. Yes, Jupiter might like to have Neptune`s orbit, but I don`t think they`re going to be switching places anytime soon. Something that is just a factor of existence, like being born within certain groups, having some sort of disability or talent, living within a certain time can be considered to be your destiny. Within that context, you have free will to create your own fate, or change your own stars, to a certain extent.


i wonder if it isn't a bit more nuanced that one vs the other...in other words, perhaps during certain periods of one's life a predestined course of action will unfold regardless of choice or free-will, where in other scenarios free-will is dominant. i say this because of the previous paragraph, and also because i feel at this moment in time to have much more control over my life and destiny than i ever have in the past.

It`s not one or the other. They`re both interrelated, like time and space. You cannot separate destiny and fate, free will and predestination. They are not mutually exclusive and they are not contradictory, one supports the other, one cannot exist without the other. Control is a fickle chimera, someone once said. Enjoy the illusion while it lasts. :)

[Mike]

i can't imagine removing my thanks from that eloquent reply Modwiz, but thanks for the heads-up;)

the simplest way i've heard it described is this: imagine a video-game for a moment. all possibilities exist on that video-game, all possible scenarios and moves and so forth. you do not create those possibilities, you simply move thru them, choosing which one's you feel are most desirable in any given moment.

in this analogy, the possibilities on the game represent choices AND fate, in the sense that the 'choices' presented to you already exist (fate..ie past-present-future all existing as one) and the free-will is the navigating of those choices.

but are some of those choices destiny? perhaps destiny and fate are just high mathematical probabilities, and not necessarily written-in-stone occurrences. God is a mathematician, is he not?

[Mike]

i'm finally nodding off guys. i'm gonna get a good nights sleep and tackle all responses in the am.

thanks a bunch for all the great input. i'll attempt to "enjoy the illusion" from here on out professor. thanks for the tip;)

[modwiz]

so Rahkyt and Modwiz, you both seem to be saying that there is a difference between fate and destiny? that's a new wrinkle. interesting.

i'm curious though - just how much does free-will factor in? i look back on my life and i'm quite certain that if given the same opportunity 100 times over, i'd still likely make the same decisions. there were just certain situations i was ill-equipped to deal with at certain times and i can't even imagine the scenario's playing out any other way. i didn't have the tools i possess now to make wise decisions.

i wonder if it isn't a bit more nuanced that one vs the other...in other words, perhaps during certain periods of one's life a predestined course of action will unfold regardless of choice or free-will, where in other scenarios free-will is dominant. i say this because of the previous paragraph, and also because i feel at this moment in time to have much more control over my life and destiny than i ever have in the past.

just some ponderings...

¤=[Post Update]=¤




someone please help me make sense of this so i can go back to thinking of ex-girlfriends i screwed up with instead of this maddening dichotomy when i'm trying to sleep at night...

Try going to sleep thinking of new girlfriends you would like to screw. ;)

a wonderful suggestion lol!

I believe that free will is huge and only partially understood. Our creatorship and free will are in a dance together and until there is some kind of working together in a higher knowing, we have a lot of auto pilot machinery happening. The lessons we need to learn, or karma, need to be learned but the manner of the lesson is not important. So, if we 'get' something before a trajectory/destiny taking us to that destination happens in time, we no longer need the same destiny and the auto pilot for that needed event is dismantled.

I have to stop there for now. My brain began to produce some steam, lol.

[Mark]

I believe that free will is huge and only partially understood. Our creatorship and free will are in a dance together and until there is some kind of working together in a higher knowing, we have a lot of auto pilot machinery happening. The lessons we need to learn, or karma, need to be learned but the manner of the lesson is not important. So, if we 'get' something before a trajectory/destiny taking us to that destination happens in time, we no longer need the same destiny and the auto pilot for that needed event is dismantled.

I have to stop there for now. My brain began to produce some steam, lol.

Yes, exactly. The way I`ve seen it is explained is that the Higher Self presents us with certain lessons during a lifetime. The order of the lessons isn`t important, but we are `scheduled`to take them during a particular incarnation. If we fail them then we get the lesson again at a higher personal cost later in that same lifetime or in the next, or previous, both of which are relative as in the greater view all incarnations are occurring simultaneously anyway.

I think of your comment regarding `changing our stars`or shifting our destiny by forgoing previously learned lessons as the highest possible outcome of a lifetime but a happenstance so rare as to be almost inconceivable primarily because so few people actually seek enlightenment consciously. In order to become aware of these lessons in a conscious manner the ego has to be moved to the side through meditative practices, which, simply put, means stilling the inner voice long enough to contact the inner child-lower self, which is the conduit to the higher self, which is actually a collective self made up of our different incarnative personality selves and which is not as accessible as so many people seem to think it is, at least to our ego consciousness, which is about as crass as materiality can get. Paying attention to the synchronicities, figuring out their meanings, recognizing the gist of the lesson and passing it is the proof of one`s progress along the path of enlightenment.

[ViralSpiral]

Looking for a one-dimensional answer in our 3D constraint, is about as complex as your questioning what you may have done wrong in relationships. ;)

Fate being associated with karma means you get to have the same type of girlfriend over and over again, until you "get it". Cause & effect.

I agree wit Rahkyt. Fate is our free-will choice, the decisions we make every day. Destiny is the inevitable outcome of our life-path trajectory. I believe though, that we have actually have "limited" free will in our fate, whilst still shackled to our present reality. Destiny becomes the observable effect of what I think are unrecognized choices or the aspect of our relentless course through space and across time
All just woo-woo hypothesis in the great unknown...... :)

Lift those veils, dammit!!




Everything in the universe has a purpose. Indeed, the invisible intelligence that flows through everything in a purposeful fashion is also flowing through you.
Wayne Dyer

[Ultima Thule]

Excellent reading this far :p

I have struggled with this and probably will, but some thoughts that occurred in theme of:

Blues Brothers -
Fate: Going to Chicago with full tank of gas and a half a pack of cigarettes with the fate of saving the orphanage. Their fate perhaps containing a karmic lesson or balancing of sorts.
Free will: they chose to drive the s**tboxdodge there and do illegite stuff to gather the money needed to save the orphanage, perhaps gaining some karma to balance later. They might - in theory - have chosen to work legit for the cash or win the lottery for the money.
Destiny: end up uplifting people with their music, in this case their free will lead them to do it via Jailhouse rock, but they could´ve been doing Gimme some lovin in open air.

Now I don´t have an idea how these things can overlap and whether we have free will to choose how much of our fate or destiny we are willing to tackle in given lifetime, there seems to be a lot of moving pieces. I have though found out in my life that there are things happening to you, that feel like fate, that feel undodgable. They are not necessarily nice and easy things, but you get to use free will to decide what you make of it. I often get the feeling of also being the author of a book about myself, I know where it started and have an idea where it is supposed to end, but I am free to write the plot - and yet, there is also the feeling of my Tao or my path that feels right for me in the ways of profession and character and that somehow guides me to exercise my free will in the direction of the least resistance.

Now I don´t blame you for not being able to sleep while contemplating this. I am quite certain that there are multitude of layers that have interaction in between them and we just might not be able to comprehend it.

Juha

[Bollinger]

There is no conflict. That free will exists and is real can be proven easily simply by demonstrating that you can do a large number of things (physically and mentally) without waiting for some other event or rule to be fulfilled first. For example choosing to lift your arm or sit down or dream of heaven and so on.

Any act in itself cannot happen without a proper motive behind it and that doesn’t just go for living things – it seems to apply to inanimate matter as well. The lower you go down the hierarchy of existence, the more restrictive the rules become. For example, a tree has slightly more free will than a piece of rock simply because it has the ability to grow and react with its environment. A dog has more free will than a tree because it can move about, seek shelter, fight for food etc. A human being has more free will than a dog because we can build structures, understand technologies and use our skills to influence our surrounding to a much greater extent than any creature in the animal kingdom.

The paragraph above gives us a rough definition of free will (which should be our first port of call if we are to understand and debate any concept). In other words, free will is the scope of influence. Now we have to define what we mean by “fate” or “predestination”. This is slightly more difficult because it cannot be easily demonstrated. We have to use subjective content to describe what we mean by it and without diluting the definition with some sort of “belief system”, let’s just say it is the complete opposite of free will. In other words, everything is preordained, right down to the position of the last atom. That definition is flawed because you would have to ask: who or what preordained it? In the absence of an alternative, we have to assume then that our existence is the result of another existence that has a much greater sphere of influence than we do.

Looking at humanity, one is bound to ask; whereabouts do we sit on the ladder of free will? We can only give a subjective view on this because some think we are gods while others think we’ve hardly left the shell; but that’s another discussion altogether.

The best way to visualise free will is to use an analogy. Suppose you are in a boat in the middle of the ocean. At your disposal there is satellite navigation, a state of the art propulsion engine, heating and an early warning system of approaching weather fronts. You use all of that to guide you safely through the waters and reach your destination. Your motive might be business or pleasure, it doesn’t really matter. If you take a look at this boat from 10 miles up in space, what do you see? It is just a spec meandering through a large body of water on a large sphere that is hurtling through space. Does it look like the boat or its captain has any free will because no matter what happens the large body of water will still continue with its currents and tides, the planet will still go round the sun. The people on the boat have no doubt whatsoever that they are the masters of their own destiny because they can turn the wheel and go left or right. They choose.

Our scope of influence is small compared with all the other stuff that is going on over which we have no control. So to end this mini discussion, which obviously deserves more than just a few paragraphs, the short answer is that yes we do have free will but we are constrained by much greater factors outside of our control which you may want to label “fate” or simply think of it is as how things are.

[another bob]

Greetings, Friend!

Because our level of awareness directly influences our perspective, one can say (depending on their angle of vision), that there is free will, free will to create the karma that in turn ripens into our future life circumstances (but is then often regarded as "fate" because of the time differential between production and manifestation);

or, from another level of view, one could say that everything that happens in one's life is determined before they are born, and the only freedom we have is to inquire into the source of the very sense of self that appears to either excercise free will or be a victim of ripening causes and conditions;

or finally, from an absolute standpoint, one can truthfully say that there is neither free will nor destiny -- that neither concept ultimately applies.

In any case, whatever level of awareness is true of us will determine how we see these things, and whatever that way happens to be here in 3D land, we can be certain that it will inevitably change, since consciousness is always modifying itself for purposes of ever-new joy.

Blessings!

[DNA]

i struggle with this. i've heard various explanations but have never been able to successfully reconcile the two.

right when i discover an all-encompassing theory that satisfies all my curiosities, my yapping brain starts "what if-ing" and i inevitably find a hole in the new paradigm - a question it cannot satisfactorily answer. and then i'm right back to square 1.

there have been times that i've grasped this concept for what seems like a cosmic split second, my mind-body-soul emitting a collective sigh of relief, and then it slips thru my hands like sand the second i start intellectualizing my epiphany.

so what is it guys? fate? free-will? an alchemic admixture of both is the likely answer, but how do we account for all the stubborn paradoxes?

someone please help me make sense of this so i can go back to thinking of ex-girlfriends i screwed up with instead of this maddening dichotomy when i'm trying to sleep at night...

Sounds like you've recently seen the movie "high fidelity" with John Cusack.?

Let me start by quoting the most interesting man in the world "I don't always drink beer, but when I do, I prefer Dos Equix". Okay that slogan might be lost on folks outside the states but it fits for this paradigm.

I really don't dig channelled material too much, but, of the channelled material I've personally felt to be legit, I really really like it, and of these I prefer Jane Robert's "Seth Material", and an anonymous group of spirit boarders who have channelled "The Michael Teachings" chronicalled by Chelsea Quin Yarbro.

Both of these sources state that reality has a string based theory thing going on. There are multiple versions of ourselves in differing realities which sprang from the different choices we have made.

On top of that, there is a certain amount of fate going on. We have karmic slices of interactions we have decided to enter into, and there are fellow travelers who incarnate in symphony with these interactions. But free-will rules out in that we can make our own choice whether or not to fullfill those obligations.

[ViralSpiral]

I keep coming back to a wonderful documentary which was posted by another m.i.a friend Alkamyst: Who's driving the Dreambus (http://theavalonfiles.com/stream/Whos_Driving_The_Dreambus/index.html)

As I get distracted by the pearls, I miss others. So I keep returning.


From the documentary:

Gangaji:- We love the beautiful states, the bliss, the peace, where nothing is going wrong and we have ideas and hopes that there is some way we can keep those states and keep the other out. And the truth is in the willingness to actually meet the "other", however that's formulated: fear, despair, profound loss....
Allowing the consciousness or attention to drop right into the fear, to just to fall into it, there is a discovery there that shifts one's whole life, which can never be taken away. Then there is a recognition, not only of the capacity to meet anything, but of what is behind everything. What's at the bottom of everything. What's finally always here.

I acknowledge this may not answer your original question however, I am reading "between the lines" of what you think is your free will, and your perception of separation ;)

I recommend you watch the doccie. It's worth it!

[applejax]

It's a tough one. Maybe it's not for us to figure out, I mean..........did these guys dressed up as female nurses get a choice?

lCIVdv5tn2A

In terms of the whole ex gf thing, as long as you've learned your lessons, history should not repeat itself, you can look back at seemingly horrible situations and laugh once you've learned.

I personally believe fate does come in at certain points in our life, like meeting that girl at the stores when you're 24 who eventually became your wife.

Like a tattoo, the outline (fate) is done, we are the ones that do the shading/colour.

OT: i love watching these guys. they make me laugh...it's funny, i just watched the subbed version of this couple nights ago. just wanted to say that :)

On the topic: i think it's a little bit of both...to me fate is whatever is put in front of you; with free will, whatever fate was pushed upon you, you have the choice and decision (free will) to do whatever it is you need to act upon what was in front of you.

[Mark (Star Mariner)]

All great answers so far, with pretty much everything covered, but I still felt compelled to enter the debate and offer my own perspective.

The ‘Tree of Life’ analogy suffices here when reducing the concepts to their simplest form.

Picture a Redwood. The task you have undertaken (your incarnation) is to climb it. The tall straight stem represents your Life-Path. Your end goal is the very top of the tree – this is your Fate, or destiny. The branches along way represent Free-will – the method by which you will attempt to reach the top.

The branches above are a maze in both variety and number. The course you choose is completely open. It is a veritable climber’s playground, so many shapes and patterns to negotiate, so many permutations. It is up to you how you climb the stem, to reach your invisible goal – this is free-will at work, each branch a life-event, a choice, a defining moment that will open up a new junction of opportunity. Do you pursue it this way or that?

Not every reaching hand or scrambling foot will drive you upwards, some endeavours miscarry, and can send you laterally or even downwards.

You meet numerous obstacles along the way, which will define the shape of the climb and the ultimate expenditure of effort. Some of those footholds are deep and treacherous indeed, predetermined by karma, and you must ride out these examinations with dexterity (wisdom), patience (conscience), and determination (spirit). You must overcome these to continue upwards to you fate, otherwise linger, falter, or perhaps even fall.

One day though, after an exhaustive ascent you will be afforded a glimpse of what awaits. You may have known, or at least guessed all along, what the amazing view at the top may be, that vision having propelled you in the first place. Others will be less certain, content perhaps to wait until they get there. But they know in their hearts heart that the top, what ever it looks like, is there, and when they reach it they can at least fly free, and ascend into the ether.

[Mark]

Free will and destiny encompass so much that I find every post in this thread to hold validity. The picture is so immense, the tapestry so encompassing that, even still, we can grasp but a part of the complexity, understand only a small percentage of the entire perspective. You can dedicate lifetimes of research just to an aspect or two of the overall phenomenon and still not cover it all ... but as a broad outline, i think this thread is doing a great job so far of bringing some of it together to complete a picture. Great topic, Chin-mudra man.

[Mike]

thanks for the thoughtful reply Bollinger. always good to see you posting.

i've heard that argument for free will - the one you described in your first paragraph - where free-choice proves itself thru simple acts like the lifting of one's arm or foot, but i have to wonder: is this really proof? the devil's advocate in me might suggest that we can't prove that these acts are not also pre-destined.


let's just assume for a moment that 2 people are destined to meet at a certain time for a certain purpose. i think most of us here agree that this occurs from time to time. now consider the phenomenally intricate and delicate timing that would have to manifest for this to occur, and the seemingly insignificant events that took place prior, and more importantly THE DURATION of those seemingly insignificant events.

example: if i'm scheduled to save your life from a car collision at exactly 3:02pm on a monday, then the desultory lifting of one's arm or leg or the pointless scratching of one's back takes on enormous significance. scratch a few seconds too long and BAM, Bollinger is squirrel food at worst, an organ donor at best.

maybe i'm taking it a little too far, but these are the places my chatty mind take me to.

[Ultima Thule]

Perhaps the plot in the movie Adjustment Bureau isn´t too far from reality, you make a mundane free will choice, but you still need to get to be there at 3:02 pm - the universe in every moment reorganizing itself to fit to your choices? -> an itch, red light, green light, miss the buss, train is late, get early from office???
Juha

[another bob]

"Like everything mental, the so-called law of causation contradicts itself. No thing in existence has a particular cause; the entire universe contributes to the existence of even the smallest thing; nothing could be as it is without the universe being what it is. When the source and ground of everything is the only cause of everything, to speak of causality as a universal law is wrong. The universe is not bound by its content, because its potentialities are infinite; besides it is a manifestation, or expression of a principle fundamentally and totally free.

When I say a thing is without a cause, I mean it can be without a particular cause. Your own mother was not needed to give you birth; you could have been born from some other woman. But you could not have been born without the sun and the earth. Even these could not have caused your birth without the most important factor: your own desire to be born. It is desire that gives birth, that gives name and form. The desirable is imagined and wanted and manifests itself as something tangible or conceivable. Thus is created the world in which we live, our personal world. The real world is beyond the mind's ken; we see it through the net of our desires, divided into pleasure and pain, right and wrong, inner and outer. To see the universe as it is, you must step beyond the net. It is not hard to do so, for the net is full of holes.

Look at the net and its many contradictions. You do and undo at every step. You want peace, love, happiness and work hard to create pain, hatred and war. You want longevity and overeat, you want friendship and exploit. See your net as made of such contradictions and remove them—your very seeing them will make them go.

For everything there are innumerable causal factors. But the source of all that is, is the infinite Possibility, the Supreme Reality, which is in you and which throws its power and light and love on every experience. But, this source is not a cause and no cause is a source. Because of that, I say everything is uncaused. You may try to trace how a thing happens, but you cannot find out why a thing is as it is. A thing is as it is, because the universe is as it is."

Excerpted from I am That: Talks with Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj, translated by Maurice Frydman.

Blessings!

[Mike]

viralspiral i think you hit it on the head when you suggested that i'm searching for a multidimensional answer with a 3d mentality. i think that's why - as i said in my initial post - my brief understandings always take place outside the intellect.

¤=[Post Update]=¤


Perhaps the plot in the movie Adjustment Bureau isn´t too far from reality, you make a mundane free will choice, but you still need to get to be there at 3:02 pm - the universe in every moment reorganizing itself to fit to your choices? -> an itch, red light, green light, miss the buss, train is late, get early from office???
Juha


good example juha. and an underrated movie!

i suggest everyone here check it out.

[alienHunter]

i struggle with this. i've heard various explanations but have never been able to successfully reconcile the two.

right when i discover an all-encompassing theory that satisfies all my curiosities, my yapping brain starts "what if-ing" and i inevitably find a hole in the new paradigm - a question it cannot satisfactorily answer. and then i'm right back to square 1.

there have been times that i've grasped this concept for what seems like a cosmic split second, my mind-body-soul emitting a collective sigh of relief, and then it slips thru my hands like sand the second i start intellectualizing my epiphany.

so what is it guys? fate? free-will? an alchemic admixture of both is the likely answer, but how do we account for all the stubborn paradoxes?

someone please help me make sense of this so i can go back to thinking of ex-girlfriends i screwed up with instead of this maddening dichotomy when i'm trying to sleep at night...

Hi, this is just an opinion formed from a synthesis of spirituality and science:

Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle is a manifestation of God's desire to give us free will in a deterministic reality. We cannot know what will be until the act is complete. If you consider that science suggests that every action results in a different universal timeline...then what sends you off spinning in one direction can be very different than the direction you 'might' have taken based on a different decision. The caveat is that 'both' of you will continue traveling. God knows that and has no problem integrating that knowledge.

[Mike]

"Like everything mental, the so-called law of causation contradicts itself. No thing in existence has a particular cause; the entire universe contributes to the existence of even the smallest thing; nothing could be as it is without the universe being what it is. When the source and ground of everything is the only cause of everything, to speak of causality as a universal law is wrong. The universe is not bound by its content, because its potentialities are infinite; besides it is a manifestation, or expression of a principle fundamentally and totally free.

When I say a thing is without a cause, I mean it can be without a particular cause. Your own mother was not needed to give you birth; you could have been born from some other woman. But you could not have been born without the sun and the earth. Even these could not have caused your birth without the most important factor: your own desire to be born. It is desire that gives birth, that gives name and form. The desirable is imagined and wanted and manifests itself as something tangible or conceivable. Thus is created the world in which we live, our personal world. The real world is beyond the mind's ken; we see it through the net of our desires, divided into pleasure and pain, right and wrong, inner and outer. To see the universe as it is, you must step beyond the net. It is not hard to do so, for the net is full of holes.

Look at the net and its many contradictions. You do and undo at every step. You want peace, love, happiness and work hard to create pain, hatred and war. You want longevity and overeat, you want friendship and exploit. See your net as made of such contradictions and remove them—your very seeing them will make them go.

For everything there are innumerable causal factors. But the source of all that is, is the infinite Possibility, the Supreme Reality, which is in you and which throws its power and light and love on every experience. But, this source is not a cause and no cause is a source. Because of that, I say everything is uncaused. You may try to trace how a thing happens, but you cannot find out why a thing is as it is. A thing is as it is, because the universe is as it is."

Excerpted from I am That: Talks with Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj, translated by Maurice Frydman.

Blessings!

anotherbob, right before i reached the bottom of your post i was thinking: hell, we've got a real spiritual poet on our hands here. how have i possibly missed this man?;)

then of course you humbly gave credit to Sri Nisargadetta.;) points for honesty there! this is a wonderful excerpt and i appreciate you posting it here.

[Mike]

DNA, i like this hypothesis. i often wonder about this fortunate, wiser version of myself living it up in some utopian dimension...

the lucky bastard!;)

[Alex Laker]

I like the tree of life idea. But perhaps the branches are weighted - some paths more favourable than others. In using free will, I make the wrong decision and the branch snaps. I fall off. I die, and so I must start again at the bottom. Perhaps there is a fate and destiny. My fates are those loose branches - and I have infinite incarnations to take the correct path all the way. My destiny is the end goal. It transcends all fate, and is the only ever successful outcome that I can reach. Of course these are just words invented by a species who don't understand the concept they describe, which makes conjecture as to whether they are separate or even exist somewhat futile.

Nevertheless... what is it about fate and fatality? Is it because the only true fate we all share is that of death? If the word fate can also mean death, (at least in the English speaking world), then somehow they have become equivalent. Fate can only occur at death, because perhaps it determined in the end by the sum of all of our life's choices. Indeed it is a logical derivation to say that there is a point in the decisions we make, where death becomes inevitable even disregarding all other choices by other people (which of course will influence your demise). So in this sense, is fate not demonstrable as a real concept? That is inevitability does not occur simultaneously with fate. That is to say that if inevitability exists, so must fate. This goes to show that really the question "do you believe in fate?" is meaningless to me, because I find it to be a logical fact. The notion that free will, fate and/or destiny cannot coexist is nonsense. To use the words of someone else here - it is a tapestry - a very complexly woven web that is too infinite to comprehend. Our decisions are the stitches that hold it together.

Also, I know that in French there are as well two separate words to describe fate and destiny - le sort and le destin. However, in German I believe there is not, although I could be wrong. This begs a very interesting question about how our vocabulary changes our possible perceptions. But I suppose that's another story.

Another interesting question: is it possible that in all the ideas here we could actually have even come close to what is really going on? Or is that just like saying could a billion monkeys with a billion typewriters produce Shakespeare? Is that all we're really doing here?

[Mike]

Araxes, the monkeys certainly have the numbers, but i still prefer to think that we have the advantage ;)

i hesitated to even start this thread for some of the same reasons listed in your last paragraph. it's the whole zen idea that the more you speak on something, the further from the truth you travel.

in fact, i find that a well-placed metaphor or short parable is usually more enlightening than a lengthier explanation - it just seems to reawaken the side of me that already understands all of this intuitively and does not necessarily require any sort of intellectual analysis.

[eric charles]

for me its Free Will all the way , Fate hmmm , to me its more like this : your free will decides your fate !

[Ultima Thule]

How about this: we just usually don´t remember how we applied free will before incarnation to determine our fate for this lifetime and then exercise free will on a day-to-day basis to mold our path to our chosen fate? That would be making erics idea absurdly correct or incorrect depending from which perspective you look at it? Or even correct, whichever way you look at it.

UT

[Ultima Thule]

:bump: Resuscitating this thread :bump: The ways people describe their allegories is great reading and very inspiring!

[Mike]

How about this: we just usually don´t remember how we applied free will before incarnation to determine our fate for this lifetime and then exercise free will on a day-to-day basis to mold our path to our chosen fate? That would be making erics idea absurdly correct or incorrect depending from which perspective you look at it? Or even correct, whichever way you look at it.

UT

i've heard similar theories and i think they are largely valid: that free-will is mainly exercised through the decision to incarnate. that's the "free-will".

though many of these theories suggest that most if not all of our free-will ends there, that there is a "life-contract" that dictates your "fate" or "destiny" (i put these words in quotes because after reading this thread i'm not sure exactly what they mean:confused:)

i like your idea better Ultima, that there is still some residual free-will to be exercised;)

p.s. and thanks for resuscitating the thread! i'd hoped it might carry on a little longer but thought it pretentious to keep it on life-support myself, being the o.p and all:biggrin:

[Ultima Thule]

I am more than happy to :bump: this thread Chinaski, well worth it! Sometimes I´ve wondered about situations that may seem catastrophe at first glance and you would change it for anything - in fact being quite sure that you didn´t "sign up" for this, err...dropping. Then when you cope with it, you see in retrospect, usually months or years later that it was an experience that raised your "game" to another level and you wouldn´t trade it for anything. What seems to be happening is that there are these levels of free will - pre-incarnate and incarnate mixed up together. One for example chooses pre-incarnately a physical trauma to occur while incarnate and gives oneself the opportunity to exercise free will as to how one goes about coping the trauma?

One other thing I´ve felt at times, I wonder if anyone of you have had anything similar? At times or points in my life I have felt the opportunity to something biggish occurring and somehow felt given the free will to choose between that scenario to happen or not. I think I have even spotted a few possible "exits", but have felt that I´m mighty fine in here.

UT

[Mike]

Ultima thanks for that enlightening post. it really resonates with me because i've dealt with much illness and heart-ache and i feel deeply that this was somehow meant to be. it's always good to hear a re-affirmation of that though.

you pre and post incarnate explanation has really got me thinking. i'll be considering it when i lay down for bed here now. too sleepy to continue here at the moment:lazy2:

[another bob]

Sometimes I´ve wondered about situations that may seem catastrophe at first glance and you would change it for anything - in fact being quite sure that you didn´t "sign up" for this, err...dropping. Then when you cope with it, you see in retrospect, usually months or years later that it was an experience that raised your "game" to another level and you wouldn´t trade it for anything.

There is a Taoist story of an old farmer who had worked his crops for many years. One day his horse ran away. Upon hearing the news, his neighbors came to visit. "Such bad luck," they said sympathetically. "May be," the farmer replied. The next morning the horse returned, bringing with it three other wild horses. "How wonderful," the neighbors exclaimed. "May be," replied the old man. The following day, his son tried to ride one of the untamed horses, was thrown, and broke his leg. The neighbors again came to offer their sympathy on his misfortune. "May be," answered the farmer. The day after, military officials came to the village to draft young men into the army. Seeing that the son's leg was broken, they passed him by. The neighbors congratulated the farmer on how well things had turned out. "May be," said the farmer.

:yo:

[Ultima Thule]

I may be have an idea. Great post Bob!! After Chinaskis last post I started to think reasons to why we generally don't recall the time between lives. Is one of the meanings of the so-called veil to create for us something comparable to children being tempted to behave badly when they think nobody is looking at them? I mean - if I knew of my divinity and the meaning to my choices, wouldn't I be all valiant and galant about my life? The veil however gives the illusion of nobody looking and you then make choices freely and are not biased to do the "right" thing.
The veil preventing you from remembering what you freely "willed" and giving a chance to use free will on a subject that you do not remember signing up for? Free will upon free will upon free will - in a fractal manner?

I'm struggling to get to my point, but nonetheless hope it is visible.

UT

[Mike]

Sometimes I´ve wondered about situations that may seem catastrophe at first glance and you would change it for anything - in fact being quite sure that you didn´t "sign up" for this, err...dropping. Then when you cope with it, you see in retrospect, usually months or years later that it was an experience that raised your "game" to another level and you wouldn´t trade it for anything.

There is a Taoist story of an old farmer who had worked his crops for many years. One day his horse ran away. Upon hearing the news, his neighbors came to visit. "Such bad luck," they said sympathetically. "May be," the farmer replied. The next morning the horse returned, bringing with it three other wild horses. "How wonderful," the neighbors exclaimed. "May be," replied the old man. The following day, his son tried to ride one of the untamed horses, was thrown, and broke his leg. The neighbors again came to offer their sympathy on his misfortune. "May be," answered the farmer. The day after, military officials came to the village to draft young men into the army. Seeing that the son's leg was broken, they passed him by. The neighbors congratulated the farmer on how well things had turned out. "May be," said the farmer.

:yo:


i couldn't read this and not think of the similar parable of the zen master who replied "is that so?" to just about everything.

loved reading this. i think we have some people walking the earth (like the farmer) that are zen masters and don't even know it. in fact, they don't even know what "zen" is! which, ironically, is very "zen" if you think about it: you don't even have to know zen to be zen.;)

[Mike]

I may be have an idea. Great post Bob!! After Chinaskis last post I started to think reasons to why we generally don't recall the time between lives. Is one of the meanings of the so-called veil to create for us something comparable to children being tempted to behave badly when they think nobody is looking at them? I mean - if I knew of my divinity and the meaning to my choices, wouldn't I be all valiant and galant about my life? The veil however gives the illusion of nobody looking and you then make choices freely and are not biased to do the "right" thing.
The veil preventing you from remembering what you freely "willed" and giving a chance to use free will on a subject that you do not remember signing up for? Free will upon free will upon free will - in a fractal manner?

I'm struggling to get to my point, but nonetheless hope it is visible.

UT

whenever i envision myself making choices about my current life in the in-between-life state - before i arrived on earth - i always imagine kindly, wise guides saying things like "i would think twice about planning that" or "maybe not such a good idea on that one". not so much affecting my free-will to make choices but subtly suggesting wiser options. and in this scenario i always envision myself ignoring their advice as a result of feeling very strong and confident in my pure spiritual state...and then them just shaking their heads soberly and mournfully at some of my poor choices.;)

i think we feel like something akin to conquerers in this state of being, and perhaps we overzealously plan with this excitable spiritual mind-state; but then we arrive on earth and it's a whole new ball-game. perhaps we then realize that we took on a little too much. my intuition tells me that this is a common spiritual error.

[another bob]

i couldn't read this and not think of the similar parable of the zen master who replied "is that so?" to just about everything.

A beautiful girl in the village was pregnant. Her angry parents demanded to know who was the father. At first resistant to confess, the anxious and embarrassed girl finally pointed to Hakuin, the Zen master whom everyone previously revered for living such a pure life. When the outraged parents confronted Hakuin with their daughter's accusation, he simply replied "Is that so?"
When the child was born, the parents brought it to the Hakuin, who now was viewed as a pariah by the whole village. They demanded that he take care of the child since it was his responsibility. "Is that so?" Hakuin said calmly as he accepted the child.

For many months he took very good care of the child until the daughter could no longer withstand the lie she had told. She confessed that the real father was a young man in the village whom she had tried to protect. The parents immediately went to Hakuin to see if he would return the baby. With profuse apologies they explained what had happened. "Is that so?" Hakuin said as he handed them the child.

:yo:

[another bob]

After Chinaskis last post I started to think reasons to why we generally don't recall the time between lives. Is one of the meanings of the so-called veil to create for us something comparable to children being tempted to behave badly when they think nobody is looking at them?

Greetings, Friend!

If you were going to play a virtual reality game, wouldn't you want it to feel as real as possible -- iow, as if you were actually placed in the midst of the various game experiences? On the other hand, if you already knew the outcome of the movie or novel, wouldn't that spoil your enjoyment? The tests we are given are made to seem real, so that we can benefit from direct experience, whatever their outcome. In reality there is no passing or failing -- no judgment -- just the experiences we bring back home to share with our people when the game is over.

Blessings!

[Mike]

After Chinaskis last post I started to think reasons to why we generally don't recall the time between lives. Is one of the meanings of the so-called veil to create for us something comparable to children being tempted to behave badly when they think nobody is looking at them?

Greetings, Friend!

If you were going to play a virtual reality game, wouldn't you want it to feel as real as possible -- iow, as if you were actually placed in the midst of the various game experiences? On the other hand, if you already knew the outcome of the movie or novel, wouldn't that spoil your enjoyment? The tests we are given are made to seem real, so that we can benefit from direct experience, whatever their outcome. In reality there is no passing or failing -- no judgment -- just the experiences we bring back home to share with our people when the game is over.

Blessings!


beautifully put, another bob.

and thanks for posting the "is that so?" parable. appreciate it.

[Ultima Thule]

After Chinaskis last post I started to think reasons to why we generally don't recall the time between lives. Is one of the meanings of the so-called veil to create for us something comparable to children being tempted to behave badly when they think nobody is looking at them?

Greetings, Friend!

If you were going to play a virtual reality game, wouldn't you want it to feel as real as possible -- iow, as if you were actually placed in the midst of the various game experiences? On the other hand, if you already knew the outcome of the movie or novel, wouldn't that spoil your enjoyment? The tests we are given are made to seem real, so that we can benefit from direct experience, whatever their outcome. In reality there is no passing or failing -- no judgment -- just the experiences we bring back home to share with our people when the game is over.

Blessings!

Kids, cover your ears... damn you guys are smart!
Playing with the ideas so far:
1. We need veil of forgetness to make it feel real and really measure the level of your game, so to speak.
2. We need time also to prevent us from looking at the outcome.
Therefore is the veil and very fact that we feel and think that we live "locked" in certain time the very same thing? Does being "in time" (I am always late though lol ) make us forget? Have we therefore forgotten both our past and future?

What does fate and free will have to do with it? I don´t remember where, but recently in some thread someone referred to living on earth to a fast-track of spiritual evolvement - so could choosing to incarnate here and forgetting be compared to freely choosing to participate in a game of gamble, where it is all a game, but the stakes are there nonetheless. In a state of forgetfulness you take a chance, whether you freely will to do the "right things" and speed up your development, but may face a sudden drop, when the name of the winning horse is "Bad Karma"?

Where does it leave us in this game when a person has the ability to remember past lives etc. - is that something that you have "unlocked" by successful game performances so far?

Slowly but certainly I am getting a contagion from Chinaskis original problem of having trouble going to sleep thinking about fate vs free will dilemma. :confused:

UT

[another bob]

Playing with the ideas so far....

Greetings, Friend!

I just now received a newsletter from Nanci Danison, an excerpt of which will maybe address some of your confusion:

"Our first human experience with love--our first opportunity to form a loving relationship with another--begins in the womb. No, not the mother-child relationship. The very first human relationship we form is with our host body.
The baby we inhabit is not us. It is a human animal conceived of human parents via the miracle of fertilization and cell division. But it is no more than that. The person you know as yourself, the personality that has eternal life within Source, is the spiritual entity inside the human. You are what we call "soul." Body and soul are fused together to form one visible creature, but there are definitely two identities present. And because there are two presences the basis for a loving relationship exists.
The foundation for the relationship is set before the human is conceived. While still in the spiritual "Light Being" state we choose our parents as we preview the general parameters of the offspring they will produce. We seek specific physical, emotional, and environmental traits in our host to fulfill a quest for the experiences we need to round out our perspective. We in effect preview our chosen human's life. That preview sparks empathy for our host as we witness his/her potential trials and tribulations ahead. And so the seed of unconditional love is planted.
You chose this particular body to inhabit because of who he/she will become and the experiences he/she will have during this lifetime. You chose this human full of unconditional love for its strengths and weaknesses. You chose him/her knowing in advance generally how his/her life will unfold. How much more love can anyone show for a human life? This is a higher love than even parent-child, for you actually knew before the body's birth just how it would hurt and disappoint you, and chose it anyway."

Blessings!

[percival tyro]

Hi chinasky, Fate proposes that we are going to encounter a prepared sequence/programme of events and that we must react to them in a predetermined manner. If I itch I'm pretty sure that it's my choice whether I will scratch it. If we have free will then we are collectively Forecasting and then creating future events and then we can change our mind if the majority is in agreement. Picking up a piece of litter and putting it in the bin, or "deciding" to leave it on the floor could completely change our future timeline.This seems to be leading to karma, reactions caused by the action of a free will. It would be waste of time and energy for there to be a prepared action followed by a prepared reaction. Then again are cosmic principles and laws our springboard for free will . The more I think about it, the more I feel like the little bird that bumped into its own tail feathers. I think you may be right with "mixture of both". Or so my free will tells me!!!. Take the girlfriends off the back burner anyway.

[vortex surfer]

Interesting thread! I'm currently reading Herman Melville's Moby Dick, and this got me thinking about a passage a read a little while ago:

"I was the attendant or page of Queequeg, while busy at the mat. As I kept passing and repassing the filling or woof of marline between the long yarns of the warp, using my own hand for the shuttle, and as Queequeg, standing sideways, ever and anon slid his heavy oaken sword between the threads, and idly looking off upon the water, carelessly and unthinkingly drove home every yarn: I say so strange a dreaminess did there then reign all over the ship and all over the sea, only broken by the intermitting dull sound of the sword, that it seemed as if this were the Loom of Time, and I myself were a shuttle mechanically weaving and weaving away at the Fates.
There lay the fixed threads of the warp subject to but one single, ever returning, unchanging vibration, and that vibration merely enough to admit of the crosswise interblending of other threads with its own. This warp seemed necessity; and here, thought I, with my own hand I ply my own shuttle and weave my own destiny into these unalterable threads. Meantime, Queequeg’s impulsive, indifferent sword, sometimes hitting the woof slantingly, or crookedly, or strongly, or weakly, as the case might be; and by this difference in the concluding blow producing a corresponding contrast in the final aspect of the completed fabric; this savage’s sword, thought I, which thus finally shapes and fashions both warp and woof; this easy, indifferent sword must be chance – aye, chance, free will, and necessity – nowise incompatible – all interweavingly working together. The straight warp of necessity, not to be swerved from its ultimate course – its every alternating vibration, indeed, only tending to that; free will still free to ply her shuttle between given threads; and chance, though restrained in its play within the right lines of necessity, and sideways in its motions directed by free will, though thus prescribed to by both, chance by turns rules either, and has the last featuring blow at events."

[Mike]

Interesting thread! I'm currently reading Herman Melville's Moby Dick, and this got me thinking about a passage a read a little while ago:

"I was the attendant or page of Queequeg, while busy at the mat. As I kept passing and repassing the filling or woof of marline between the long yarns of the warp, using my own hand for the shuttle, and as Queequeg, standing sideways, ever and anon slid his heavy oaken sword between the threads, and idly looking off upon the water, carelessly and unthinkingly drove home every yarn: I say so strange a dreaminess did there then reign all over the ship and all over the sea, only broken by the intermitting dull sound of the sword, that it seemed as if this were the Loom of Time, and I myself were a shuttle mechanically weaving and weaving away at the Fates.
There lay the fixed threads of the warp subject to but one single, ever returning, unchanging vibration, and that vibration merely enough to admit of the crosswise interblending of other threads with its own. This warp seemed necessity; and here, thought I, with my own hand I ply my own shuttle and weave my own destiny into these unalterable threads. Meantime, Queequeg’s impulsive, indifferent sword, sometimes hitting the woof slantingly, or crookedly, or strongly, or weakly, as the case might be; and by this difference in the concluding blow producing a corresponding contrast in the final aspect of the completed fabric; this savage’s sword, thought I, which thus finally shapes and fashions both warp and woof; this easy, indifferent sword must be chance – aye, chance, free will, and necessity – nowise incompatible – all interweavingly working together. The straight warp of necessity, not to be swerved from its ultimate course – its every alternating vibration, indeed, only tending to that; free will still free to ply her shuttle between given threads; and chance, though restrained in its play within the right lines of necessity, and sideways in its motions directed by free will, though thus prescribed to by both, chance by turns rules either, and has the last featuring blow at events."

hey vortex, that was an interesting bit of synchronicity there, you coming across this brilliant passage and then this related thread. love it when that happens. pretty cool.

that guy Melville was a pretty good writer, eh? ;)

he seems to be saying that there is one unchangeable and unavoidable direction this fate or "vibration"(interesting choice of words) is moving, and we can dance around it and flirt with it(free-choice) and eventually join it, but it will be implacably doing what it does regardless of what we decide to do; the bus is always moving, and the beauty is, even if you miss it there is still always another chance to get back on.

[Jenci]

Hi Chinaski,

It's one thing to wake to find you had been asleep at the wheel, another thing to find that you weren't even at the wheel in the first place!

Life draws us to the experience that we need like a magnet. Some of us are very stubborn :) and fail to realise this and fight it all the way, so life draws us to the same experience over and over again and it can get very painful not to surrender to what life is giving us.

Jeanette

[percival tyro]

Hi Araxes, If the very complex woven web That is too infinite to comprehend and our stitches are holding it together, must be complicating it even more. Obviously then with nil benefit to ourselves. That's it then, I'm off to night school on a Bodhisattva course.

[Mike]

hi chinaski,

it's one thing to wake to find you had been asleep at the wheel, another thing to find that you weren't even at the wheel in the first place!

Life draws us to the experience that we need like a magnet. Some of us are very stubborn :) and fail to realise this and fight it all the way, so life draws us to the same experience over and over again and it can get very painful not to surrender to what life is giving us.

Jeanette

so true!:)

[percival tyro]

Hi Chinaski And posters, Thank you for A great evening of entertainment and enlightenment started by yourself. Off to bed now. Cheers P.T.

[Alex Laker]

Hi Araxes, If the very complex woven web That is too infinite to comprehend and our stitches are holding it together, must be complicating it even more. Obviously then with nil benefit to ourselves. That's it then, I'm off to night school on a Bodhisattva course.

Therein lies the futility of this whole pointless yet most profound thread!

[Mike]

Hi Araxes, If the very complex woven web That is too infinite to comprehend and our stitches are holding it together, must be complicating it even more. Obviously then with nil benefit to ourselves. That's it then, I'm off to night school on a Bodhisattva course.

Therein lies the futility of this whole pointless yet most profound thread!

ha! exactly.

i mentioned earlier that i was reluctant to start it due to said futility, but then i realized that virtually none of the threads here result in an absolute knowing of anything, but nonetheless make for interesting reading.

p.s. pointless AND profound - more zen finding its way in here;)

[Ultima Thule]

Is fate and free will a part of the duality?

The way I see it a human being is a mixing between what is heavenly and what is derived from earth, in other words divine soul and it´s earthly dwelling. Earthly dwelling i.e. the body has a set of emotions of its own and it wants to exercise free will to be able to say:"I did it!" - whereas soul would be the interface through which what is heavenly in us, that is the soul, can deliver fate and give us insight as to what choices would align our free will with our fate.
Now I am not saying neither one is right or wrong nor better, on the contrary, human being is a soul being human, mixing fate and free will? In that spirit it leaves me at a fitting question for this thread, what I can only strive to comprehend:"Who am I?"

UT