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RMorgan
15th December 2011, 21:49
Hi everyone,

This is bad news for my USA citizens fellows:

http://rt.com/usa/news/indefinite-detention-bill-senate-905/

"Exactly 220 years to the date after the Bill of Rights was ratified, the US Senate today voted 86 to 13 in favor of the National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2012, allowing the indefinite detention and torture of Americans.
After a back-and-forth in recent days between both the Senate and House yielded intense criticism from Americans attempting to hold onto their Constitutional rights, NDAA FY2012 is now on its way to the White House, where yesterday the Obama administration revealed that the president would not veto the legislation, cancelling out a warning he offered less than a month earlier."



Explaining to a 5-Year Old Why the Indefinite Detention Bill DOES Apply to U.S. Citizens on U.S. Soil


http://www.prisonplanet.com/explaining-to-a-5-year-old-why-the-indefinite-detention-bill-does-apply-to-u-s-citizens-on-u-s-soil.html

"The bill says that the military must indefinitely detain anyone SUSPECTED of helping bad guys.
One provision says that the mandatory (“must”) indefinite detention doesn’t apply to U.S. citizens … but the government CAN indefinitely detain any U.S. citizen it feels like without trial, without presenting evidence, without letting the citizen consult with a lawyer, and without even charging the citizen.
This would destroy our Constitutional rights to trial, to face our accuser and to consult with an attorney.

In other words, it’s like saying “you don’t HAVE to lock up Joey for the rest of his life because he called you a mean name, but you CAN lock him away and throw away the key and then falsely accuse him of being a suspected terrorist if it would make you happy”."

Cheers,

Raf.

Franny
15th December 2011, 22:12
Cheers indeed. Not surprising thoʻ as there was talk in the Senate of why Obama was threatening to veto when it was the White House that wrote the section on citizen detainment.

OTOH, it does allow for the immediate arrest of the people responsible for 9-11 attacks.

RMorgan
15th December 2011, 22:16
Cheers indeed. Not surprising thoʻ as there was talk in the Senate of why Obama was threatening to veto when it was the White House that wrote the section on citizen detainment.

OTOH, it does allow for the immediate arrest of the people responsible for 9-11 attacks.

Well, personally, I don´t think this new bill is addressed to the people responsible for 9/11. I think it´s just the start of a fascist state, ruled by fear, where anyone can be arrested without the right of a trial, for an indefinite period of time.

Some people believe Obanana is a good guy. I don´t.

Kristin
15th December 2011, 22:21
Sad sad news. I pray for us all.
From the Heart,
Wormhole

Franny
15th December 2011, 22:27
Yeah, I know it was not addressed to the people responsible for 9-11. I was being a bit sarcastic there.

Nevertheless, it does not rule out using it as a loophole.



Cheers indeed. Not surprising thoʻ as there was talk in the Senate of why Obama was threatening to veto when it was the White House that wrote the section on citizen detainment.

OTOH, it does allow for the immediate arrest of the people responsible for 9-11 attacks.

Well, personally, I don´t think this new bill is addressed to the people responsible for 9/11. I think it´s just the start of a fascist state, ruled by fear, where anyone can be arrested without the right of a trial, for an indefinite period of time.

Some people believe Obanana is a good guy. I don´t.

RMorgan
15th December 2011, 22:29
Sad sad news. I pray for us all.
From the Heart,
Wormhole

Do you know what´s my fear about that? I´m afraid that, as always, the USA try to impose similar laws to other countries, threatening them with economic embargoes and sanctions, or establishing legal deals with other countries, creating some kind of international terrorism prevention law or something like that.

Kristin
15th December 2011, 22:32
Sad sad news. I pray for us all.
From the Heart,
Wormhole

Do you know what´s my fear about that? I´m afraid that, as always, the USA try to impose similar laws to other countries, threatening them with economic embargoes and sanctions, or establishing legal deals with other countries, creating some kind of international terrorism prevention law or something like that.

I hear you loud and clear. You have a very legitimate reason for feeling this way. I am so sorry.
From the Heart,
Wormhole

Enquiring1
15th December 2011, 23:06
Cheers indeed. Not surprising thoʻ as there was talk in the Senate of why Obama was threatening to veto when it was the White House that wrote the section on citizen detainment.

OTOH, it does allow for the immediate arrest of the people responsible for 9-11 attacks.

Hehehe, Oh would that be nice, the cabal get rounded up under this law they pass and get held indefinatley.

RMorgan
15th December 2011, 23:18
Cheers indeed. Not surprising thoʻ as there was talk in the Senate of why Obama was threatening to veto when it was the White House that wrote the section on citizen detainment.

OTOH, it does allow for the immediate arrest of the people responsible for 9-11 attacks.

Hehehe, Oh would that be nice, the cabal get rounded up under this law they pass and get held indefinatley.

It was indeed a nice point raised by our friend Latte. Well, anything is possible. It would be a good surprise if all this situation turned out to be good. A little improbable, however.

There´s something bothering me right now...While another thread about Dave Wilcock is really hot right now, with one post after another, from lots of North-American fellows, this thread, which regards a much more important matter for them, is a little bit slow...

This makes me wonder about certain coincidences...I wonder if there´s a chance that all this lately alternative media circus was deliberately planned to distract the alternative community from much more important issues...Who knows...

All I know is that the USA is being transformed into a fascist country right now, and nobody seems to be doing nothing about it, besides discussing if this character was kidnapped or that other character was threatened...

Or...It might be just my paranoid side speaking! Or maybe the real world is not as fascinating as the sci-fi drama...

Cheers,

Raf.

shadowstalker
15th December 2011, 23:25
Oh you know they are going to find scapegoats like they always have.

crested-duck
15th December 2011, 23:42
This is a very sad day for me.

TargeT
15th December 2011, 23:42
A law is only valid after it's been tested by the courts... we shall see how this goes.....

we are already allowing our government to lable anyone they want "terrorists" even when its clear we entraped / enticed &/or facilitated most the actions we arrest people for (underwear bomber, central square bomber etc..)

This is nothing new really, more like a little CYA work to cover themselfs for what they already do.

alienHunter
15th December 2011, 23:53
it shakes my confidence in the whole process...including Obama...i want to see the fallout before a final decision...it's very very questionable, though.

RMorgan
16th December 2011, 00:02
A law is only valid after it's been tested by the courts... we shall see how this goes.....

we are already allowing our government to lable anyone they want "terrorists" even when its clear we entraped / enticed &/or facilitated most the actions we arrest people for (underwear bomber, central square bomber etc..)

This is nothing new really, more like a little CYA work to cover themselfs for what they already do.

I agree. However, it would be too much of a coincidence if this bill is passing at the same time as the FEMA camps are getting ready all around the US...

WhiteFeather
16th December 2011, 00:46
Hi everyone,

This is bad news for my USA citizens fellows:

http://rt.com/usa/news/indefinite-detention-bill-senate-905/

"Exactly 220 years to the date after the Bill of Rights was ratified, the US Senate today voted 86 to 13 in favor of the National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2012, allowing the indefinite detention and torture of Americans.
After a back-and-forth in recent days between both the Senate and House yielded intense criticism from Americans attempting to hold onto their Constitutional rights, NDAA FY2012 is now on its way to the White House, where yesterday the Obama administration revealed that the president would not veto the legislation, cancelling out a warning he offered less than a month earlier."



Explaining to a 5-Year Old Why the Indefinite Detention Bill DOES Apply to U.S. Citizens on U.S. Soil


http://www.prisonplanet.com/explaining-to-a-5-year-old-why-the-indefinite-detention-bill-does-apply-to-u-s-citizens-on-u-s-soil.html

"The bill says that the military must indefinitely detain anyone SUSPECTED of helping bad guys.
One provision says that the mandatory (“must”) indefinite detention doesn’t apply to U.S. citizens … but the government CAN indefinitely detain any U.S. citizen it feels like without trial, without presenting evidence, without letting the citizen consult with a lawyer, and without even charging the citizen.
This would destroy our Constitutional rights to trial, to face our accuser and to consult with an attorney.

In other words, it’s like saying “you don’t HAVE to lock up Joey for the rest of his life because he called you a mean name, but you CAN lock him away and throw away the key and then falsely accuse him of being a suspected terrorist if it would make you happy”."

Cheers,

Raf.

I live in The USA But its not Not bad for me, It's gonna be bad pretty for them, you see,, i still have my 2 off duty police revolvers and a nice bullet proof vest to accomodate them,,, just in case,,,, hey you never know. I will protect my family as a Bear would protect her cubs, but only worse. So please don't f..ck with me.

Enquiring1
16th December 2011, 01:38
This is a very sad day for me.

Im right along with you on that.

RMorgan is 100% right when he stated that the US impose similiar laws onto other countries. It will eventually come to pass here too.

From my POV this is not just a sad day for the US, but all of humanity.

However our ancestors have gone thru hell and we are still here, somehow ( and I dont know how) we will come out the other side of this too, of this I'm sure.

Franny
16th December 2011, 01:47
I live in The USA But its not Not bad for me, It's gonna be bad pretty for them, you see,, i still have my 2 off duty police revolvers and a nice bullet proof vest to accomodate them,,, just in case,,,, hey you never know. I will protect my family as a Bear would protect her cubs, but only worse. So please don't f..ck with me.

A little off-topic here and NOT trying to be snide and snarky with this question: Do people think that an ordinary person, or even one with military training, with a couple of pistols and rifles or the equivalent is going to send a military or police unit on the run? They have much more than just military-grade automatic weapons and armor now. Consider the tanks, chemicals, microwave, tactical devices, communications and sound weapons to name a few.

Does a person or a family armed with a few guns stand a chance when confronted with a well-armed unit with these type of advanced weapons? I see people posting like this from time to time and I wonder why people believe this is realistic. Is there something Iʻm missing?

Franny
16th December 2011, 02:02
A law is only valid after it's been tested by the courts... we shall see how this goes.....

we are already allowing our government to lable anyone they want "terrorists" even when its clear we entraped / enticed &/or facilitated most the actions we arrest people for (underwear bomber, central square bomber etc..)

This is nothing new really, more like a little CYA work to cover themselfs for what they already do.

True, this has been occurring for some time now. Itʻs not dissimilar in type from the bill passed during the Bush years that granted retroactive immunity to all from Bush to the telecoms for illegal wiretapping and eavesdropping -- and made it all legal somehow.

When I first heard about this bill I also heard that the 2 senators from my state were against it. I, and many others, wrote and urged them to vote against it. They then voted for it.

Since the bill is directly in violation of several provisions of the Constitution and Bill of Rights, can we use this bill to arrest them? The circular reasoning makes me a little dizzy...

Enquiring1
16th December 2011, 02:45
I live in The USA But its not Not bad for me, It's gonna be bad pretty for them, you see,, i still have my 2 off duty police revolvers and a nice bullet proof vest to accomodate them,,, just in case,,,, hey you never know. I will protect my family as a Bear would protect her cubs, but only worse. So please don't f..ck with me.

A little off-topic here and NOT trying to be snide and snarky with this question: Do people think that an ordinary person, or even one with military training, with a couple of pistols and rifles or the equivalent is going to send a military or police unit on the run? They have much more than just military-grade automatic weapons and armor now. Consider the tanks, chemicals, microwave, tactical devices, communications and sound weapons to name a few.

Does a person or a family armed with a few guns stand a chance when confronted with a well-armed unit with these type of advanced weapons? I see people posting like this from time to time and I wonder why people believe this is realistic. Is there something Iʻm missing?

I totally see what you are saying.

At a guess I think in the heat of the moment it will come down to this.......Do I die fighting now along with my kids, or do I die later in one of those camps after suffering?

A truly horrible horrible decision to make.

The only way fighting these insurgents (thats exactly what they are) is if the masses take up arms. At best it will drastically slow the process down and may push the resources of the insurgents.

Either way there is only one outcome................and its us the Joe public that pay.

Oh boy I can feel the burn of hate in me. I had better go outside to breath. ;)

East Sun
16th December 2011, 03:02
OTOH, it does allow for the immediate arrest of the people responsible for 9-11 attacks.

Yep, those evildoers. If only we could arrest them and put them on trial. That would be justice in action.
And do we need justice.......

spiritguide
16th December 2011, 03:04
Does a person or a family armed with a few guns stand a chance when confronted with a well-armed unit with these type of advanced weapons? I see people posting like this from time to time and I wonder why people believe this is realistic. Is there something Iʻm missing?

The same way the Vietnamese shot down helicopters with bow and arrows. Study your enemy, know his tactics and deploy proper countermeasures. You will see proper response if the government does in fact violate our constitutional rights. We are peaceful but we will protect our liberty.

:peace:

The element of surprise is helpful also. why warn them?