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philosopher
11th January 2012, 15:14
hello everybody

that question has been bugging me for some time now.
all those ancient scriptures and new age fellas constantly telling us that "body is nothing and soul is everything", "real you is not your body but the soul", "the soul improves from life to life and that's what important" etc.

but instantly some questions rise.

well the first one is kind of a stand up comedy but still important.
suppose some thousands years ago there were only 1000 people on the earth. and now around 7 billions. every has a soul to improve, right? so thay have got at least 7 billions of them. so where all those souls were when the were only 1000 peole?! is there some kind of a wierd wait list. as planet gets more crowded thay let jeck out and say "ok, bill your'e next". how does this works? maybe the isn't such a thing as a soul-entity. maybe it is a field of some king or matter or what ever?


second, if soul is real and the goal is to develop it why in every next life i dont remember my previous ones? logic would tell i should. cuz once i gained an experience i should use it for all my future endeavours, souldn't i? isn't that what the lerning process is all about - you do something that is wrong you get whipped and afterwords you don't do it any more cuz now you know the consequences.

but what we get instestead. we get through lot's of things through our many lives and reincarnations but we don't remember how we get to the point we are now at. and what happend to that guy in one of our previous lives. what happend to all the memories, emotions experience he had? it's simpli gone! for you to remember your passed lives you should master some psychic tricks or go to one. and again you hear from ancient texts and new age guys "oh, it doesn't matter who you were in your passed lives what matters is that you are here now and you should keep working on you soul "evolution"".

well let me tell you some "fairy tale".
let's immagine some ancient man in africa who suddenly (no matter how) found a big raw, dirty, cloudy diamond. well, he is primitive man he doesn't treat it like jewelry he doesn't even know what the jewelry means. but he noticed how solid this material is. so he decides to crack coconuts with is. so he does it throughout his all life. well eventually he dies. so that big diamond goes to someone else in the tribe. that guy figures out to mount it to a stick and cracks a rocks and bilds him self a house. so he dies too and again it goes to someone else. this next guy tries to sharpen it from one side to be able to carve stone or metal. it takes his all life to harp it just a little bit. lets suppose that few more guys after him workerd on that too. well they finaly sharpen it from one side and eventually made a good carving tool. now lets immagine guy who comes after them all and gets the diamond. well he's not into carving but he notices that well sharpened one side of it and how shiny it is. so he desides to clean it all up. lets suppose he and few his successors managed to clean it up completely. so next guy gets clean, shiny and to some degree shapless diamond. so he desides to make a jewelry from it. so he begins and those after him contunues........(well that's endless story) so the story goes on. and what we have at the end as a result. we get this thing - diamond. well it is beautiful, shiny and perfectly shaped. it has evolved throught the centuries. it is perfect in a sence. it is valued and treated respectively. it goes on and is getting only better and better.

so let's look at those guys who worked on this perfection. they all dead and no one remembers them. thair memory, personality, feelings and identity are completely gone. the only records of them are those attached to the diamond in a form of a book that tells the story of its development its hystory. and every next guy can look up this book and say "oh honey that diamond was ones owned and managed by some guy called alfred". but alfred is long time gone without the trace. diamond was affected by alfred bu it is not alfred it self it has no memory and feelings it self. it's just and object affected by those who possessed it back in the day.

now let's look at those guys who claim they once sold their souls. they still are who they were before (to some degree). thay still have memory, feelings, they alive, they think and so on.

maybe "god" and "devil" are those guys who love diamonds? do they care about "manufacturer" or they only interested in the final product?
are those guys like john lear right about "soul harvesting"?
or guys like david wilcok is more closer to the truth?

can someone elaborate on the subject? maybe some references on some sources or scholars to clarify all that stuff?

ps
i'm a bit in a hurry so i dont have lots of time to put above in more sophisticated manner. sorry. but the core is there anyway.
alse sorry for my english.
and thanks in advance.

wolf_rt
11th January 2012, 15:51
This is really getting to the heart of the matter now... My thoughts on this matter are constantly evolving, and i'm not sure if it would be useful to share them..

One thing i am quite sure of though, if we kept our memory's through all incarnations, we would quickly become stagnant. The opinions and thoughts of all people of earth, would soon become as one, and our evolution would then be as an entire race rather than as individuals.
This would slow our spiritual evolution to a snails pace.
I think there is a VERY strong possibility that this 'forgetting' is what sets us apart from other species, and makes earth life such a hard and rewarding experience.
From what i have heard the choice to incarnate on earth, is one taken by only the most dareing and adventurous 'souls'..(or 'spirits'.. or whatever.. we do need to work on these definitions i think)

christian
11th January 2012, 16:05
Pretty wild post :)

"New souls" for the 7 billion can come from everywhere, from nature (while humanity grew exponentially lots of species became extinct, go figure), from other places out there, from the source or from what-have-you.

Why we don't remember past lives? Well some do...
And some - even in one and the same life - will make the same mistakes over and over again, you'd think they should remember and learn from it, well...

The "Soul" is nothing you could put your finger on with words. Many people describe many different spiritual aspects and use words, apart from their observations or speculations being accurate or not in the first place, sometimes different people use the same word for different things...

wolf_rt
11th January 2012, 16:14
I have to disagree with you chiquetet, on not being able to put the matter into words.

I think the issue here is that some belief systems use 'soul' and 'spirit' interchangeably, when discussing the same thing.
Other systems have completely different meanings for both 'soul' and 'spirit', and others have the same but the definitions are swapped...

I do believe it is possible to sort this confusion out... I'll let you know :-)

crested-duck
11th January 2012, 16:16
Since childhood , I've referred to the soul , and looked at it as the god-spark. When your body ceases to function, your energy or godspark continues onward. Have you never had to put down a pet, and seen the godspark in their eyes dissapear?

wolf_rt
11th January 2012, 16:24
This is a massive topic...

I believe we have to throw 'Consciousness' into the mix also.

We are also going to have to deal with the cyclical nature of time, in order to unravel this.

I think this topic is worth all our time and effort... after all how can we focus on improving something we can't define?

bearcow
11th January 2012, 16:24
the term soul was originally a reference for ones astral body

spirit is different, called atman by the hindus, shen by the taoists. it is of a more permanent nature, the I AM.

the definitions get confused in today's spiritual circles because most people have no real experience of these things and only speak in generalities.

wolf_rt
11th January 2012, 17:01
So bearcow, would you attach consciousness to the soul or the spirit? and can you elaborate on your definition of spirit? and which is it we are trying to improve?

bearcow
11th January 2012, 17:14
the most important thing to do is to fix spirit to the seat of individualized awareness in the head, so that the spiritual nature can blossom in the individual. this in turn will aid in slowly refining the quality of astral material the soul is made up of, thus making the individual personality a more fitting expression of the divinity hidden within.

spirit is naturally perfect, soul is not

xerius
11th January 2012, 17:24
Hi..your questions are vast and can occuppy a lot of space and time... I recommend one book for you.. Entitled " The life story of a soul" by edgar cayce.. It will try to answer all you questions based on the readings of edgar cayce from the akashic records.. There is an infinite number of souls...this is not the only school or university earth that we learn and evolve from.. There are other planets..other universes and realitites as per the hindu scriptures as srimad bhavagatam.. We can either remember or forget our past lives...remembering can help or make us stuck in our present incarnation... Regarding the soul harvesting is another story perhaps...try to read some articles of pane andov as well.. You can take as well some books of dolores cannon Based on her research on past lives...

. The topic is too vast and a lot of books have been already written since the ancient times... But what I understand and accept are the words written on most of Cayce's work because they resonate more on the truth that I hold presently...

Cheers..

Mysticknowflake
11th January 2012, 17:26
The "Soul" is You! Who you really are. We are conscious energy... <3

xerius
11th January 2012, 17:29
the most important thing to do is to fix spirit to the seat of individualized awareness in the head, so that the spiritual nature can blossom in the individual. this in turn will aid in slowly refining the quality of astral material the soul is made up of, thus making the individual personality a more fitting expression of the divinity hidden within.

spirit is naturally perfect, soul is not

So who are we among the two who is presently controling the body with our consiousness? The spirit or the soul? Which is eternal and which is temporary? Who is the controller and who is the observer.. Who is apart from the controling the body and typing this words on this forum per se?

Cheers..

Star1111
11th January 2012, 17:38
Philosopher
I started writing a long explanation about what the soul was imo ( as below and you can read it if you want) and then something came to me to answer your question:

THE SOUL IS ..........................PURE LOVE. Simple as that!!

Here is what I wrote before “The Soul is pure LOVE” came to me.................
Much LOVE to you :)

Philosopher
Such a huge question, but that is worthy of a thoughtful answer.
Firstly, you might want to read “Destiny of Souls” by Michael Newton. I found this book of interest, I didn’t agree with all of it, but it was an insightful read.
My view, for what it is worth, and something that I have always believed. When I say always believed, I incarnated on this earth this time, just ‘knowing’ this to be the truth. Of course this is my truth and I’m sure there are some that would disagree or have their own views.
Each to their own :)
Your question was “What is the Soul per se”.
This is difficult to explain with the human language - it is SO very limited, but I will try.............

I believe that we are all connected to the Divine (God, the Source, whatever is your word) and we are all extensions of the Divine which = the Soul.

I believe that we are all part of a soul group or more precisely soul groups. I see it as a nucleus/group in the centre with strands going out from that centre to other nuclease/groups that have strands going out to other nucleus/groups and so on - to infinity.

I believe we ‘work’ as ‘members’ of the group that we ‘belong ‘to to assist each other in reaching enlightenment/to grow. To do this I believe that we each incarnate over and over until we learn the lessons that we come down to learn, whatever they may be for each of us.

Imo we agree beforehand with our soul group members and our guides as to what our lives will be like, who we will meet, how our life will enable us to learn the lessons we need to learn. We therefore don’t remember this agreement (or at least some don’t) when we incarnate because we need to experience what we came down to experience without knowing what is in ‘store’ as it were.

You said that “all those ancient scriptures and new age fellas constantly telling us that "body is nothing and soul is everything", "real you is not your body but the soul", "the soul improves from life to life and that's what important" etc.” I would say that the body IS of importance as it assists us in understanding what it is like to be human and enables us to experience the 5 senses.

bearcow
11th January 2012, 17:43
So who are we among the two who is presently controling the body with our consiousness? The spirit or the soul? Which is eternal and which is temporary? Who is the controller and who is the observer.. Who is apart from the controling the body and typing this words on this forum per se?

for the average person, the soul (astral body) is in control. the 5 skandhas within the individual have a momentum of their own volition and create a persons karma. but for almost everybody the spirit is able to exert a influence upon the individual and partly guide the individual to a higher state of being over the long haul.

bearcow
11th January 2012, 17:49
Imo we agree beforehand with our soul group members and our guides as to what our lives will be like, who we will meet, how our life will enable us to learn the lessons we need to learn. We therefore don’t remember this agreement (or at least some don’t) when we incarnate because we need to experience what we came down to experience without knowing what is in ‘store’ as it were.

the karmic momentum left over from the 5 skandhas in previous life(s) are the determining factor in creating the conditions in the present life. very few people have any conscious say on the circumstances of their next life.

another bob
11th January 2012, 17:54
What we call "soul" is that portion of our Light Being energy that inhabits the human host body. As Beings of Light, we are integral parts of Source's self-awareness, consciousness, and identity. We are ultimately undivided facets or fragments of Source's thoughts, though from lower vibrational levels we appear to be separate Beings of Light. Because we are facets of Source, we have the same innate ability that Source does to outwardly extend part of our own self-awareness, consciousness, and identity to become the soul of a human animal.
Unlike humans, Light Beings enjoy multiple simultaneous layers of awareness. Picture one of those consciousness layers being separated out and its vibration lowered. That lowered Energy becomes what we call a "soul". It enters into a chosen human animal before birth. From the perspective of the Light Being Energy remaining in the Light, that part of its Energy that becomes the soul seems to be unconsious or asleep because its level of self-awareness has become so greatly diminished. From the perspective of the Light Being Energy that entered the human, it lives a lifetime believing itself to be human.

~excerpted from Nanci Danison's "Backwards Guidebook"


:yo:

xerius
11th January 2012, 18:00
So who are we among the two who is presently controling the body with our consiousness? The spirit or the soul? Which is eternal and which is temporary? Who is the controller and who is the observer.. Who is apart from the controling the body and typing this words on this forum per se?

for the average person, the soul (astral body) is in control. the 5 skandhas within the individual have a momentum of their own volition and create a persons karma. but for almost everybody the spirit is able to exert a influence upon the individual and partly guide the individual to a higher state of being over the long haul.

Thanks Bearcow.. So we can say the 5 skandhas are only temporary and will cease to exist after we depart the physical body? Can we say now that the spirit can be our guide or conscience.. The guardian angel or the inner voice that influence us for the good and further development of our being? I still hav some difficulty trying to understand the skandhas.. Are they considered the sudden impulse? The desire? Do they really exist as the self.. The soul.. Or are they both just an illussion?

Cheers..

Tarka the Duck
11th January 2012, 18:16
Do they really exist as the self.. The soul.. Or are they both just an illussion?


From the Buddhist perspective (sorry, Bearcow - didn't mean to wade in here...just seen that this is part of a conversation:o), that's it!!

another bob
11th January 2012, 18:23
Do they really exist as the self.. The soul.. Or are they both just an illussion?


From the Buddhist perspective (sorry, Bearcow - didn't mean to wade in here...just seen that this is part of a conversation:o), that's it!!

Greetings, Friend!

First, there is no such thing as "the Buddhist perspective", since there are numerous schools or sects of Buddhism that often offer contradictory opinions or teachings on the issue of what is illusion. For example, from one perspective, the entire path, from the beginning until final Buddhahood is completely illusory, insubstantial. Afflictions are not substantial entities in the mind that must be removed. They have no more reality than the mind they are felt to afflict. Wisdom is not something substantial which is gained by the mind. The whole network of dependent origination is insubstantial. There are no substantial members which belong to anything dependently originated. Substantiality is a deluded mental appearance, as is any method or scheme to enlighten or redeem dream characters.

:yo:

Firinn
11th January 2012, 18:31
This description by Matias Destefano makes a lot of sense to me.


So, all Souls and Spirits, actually Spirits, need to understand that everything happens in the Universe to be able to become another Universe.

All Spirits have to incarnate. How do they do it? Through another dense energy which is known as the Soul.

Narrator: The Soul is the closest dense vehicle that Spirit has. This is composed by different energies, that's why it's dense because it's not ONLY pure light. Its body is well known as the Chakras: Base, Sacral, Plexus, Heart, Throat, Third Eye and Crown. These are the energetic glands that allow the Spirit to connect with the maximum density: Matter. Each Chakra corresponds with each gland in the physical body.

There's much more on this to be read on his site http://www.in5d.com/transcription-total-recall-matias-destefano.html

Much love,
Firinn

jagman
11th January 2012, 18:37
I asked Caltech physicist Leonard Mlodinow, ( He co- Authored A Brief History of Time with Stephen Hawking) If he believed that human beings
Have a soul? He didn't hesitate in answering my question. He abruptly answered" No they do not!" Deepak Chopra was also listening to my
question ( Leonard & Deepak were being interviewed together because they just wrote "War of the World Views") Deepak quickly chimed in,
Saying humans do have a soul and its everything we are! I actually felt sorry for Leonard. He believes that all a human beings are just flesh and
blood and when we die, We exist no more.

jorr lundstrom
11th January 2012, 18:41
Well. speaking about division. Many ideas taking off in different directions. No consensus

in sight. But that was maybe not the purpose of the OP. LOL If I ever find out, by my own

experience, Ill let you know, or not. But then of cousre it will be my experience and hearsay for you.


http://i600.photobucket.com/albums/tt81/sakasvattaja/skrflackor_1.jpg

truthseekerdan
11th January 2012, 19:07
hello everybody

that question has been bugging me for some time now.
all those ancient scriptures and new age fellas constantly telling us that "body is nothing and soul is everything", "real you is not your body but the soul", "the soul improves from life to life and that's what important" etc.



Frankly, there is no "real you". The body is just a vehicle to experience this limited 3D reality, as for the soul is just an 'individuality' (spark) from The One Infinite Spirit or Source Consciousness...

Much Love

philosopher
11th January 2012, 19:32
unfortunately i wasn't understood i a way i intended to. it seems to be my fault as i didn't covered the questions fully understandeble. sorry

1. some of you started to overcomplicate things from the begining. it seems no one paid desirable attention to that "fairy tale" i wrote about the "diamond". the purpose of that story is next: to simplify things - like scientists do. diamond is a metaphor for a soul. if we all operate with this substitution diamod=soul it would be understandable for anyone. cuz everyone has its own beliefs system. we all have different names, definitions and understanding of the same things. so for all us to understand each other it is crucial to use the same language. thus i simplified things down to "soul=diamond". not everyone can distinguish between soul and spirit, or know those fancy religious or scientific or whatever terms, definitions and theories. so for everyone to be able to contribute properly let's try to operate with that simple "man who works on the diamond" model (if it is possible for you).

2. "what is the soul per se?" - the meaning of this question also in that story. at this stage it is not important what the soul is per se! sorry for that contradiction and let me clarify. the poruse of that question was not to get an answer like "the soul is love" or "the soul is a piece of a divided god seeking for the unity again". the question lies more in the plane of relation of the soul to the human being as an intelligent creature:
can the human being fully (to some degre) live without the soul? i mean can it eat and walk for it self, can it think for it self, learn make conclusions and decisions and have consciousness?
if it can than the human being is a complete well oiled machine (in a sence) but the soul is something compleately different to than that person it inhabits (or how do you call it). so the "diamond" here takes yet another meaning. it becomes something that has no vital relations to the human being. it is merely that thing that attaches to you and tries to gain something from that allince.

3. "it is ongoing war for you soul" - something like that says the bible right? well we humans fight and kill for money. can the gods fight for souls not with some divine purpose. can the souls be for gods something like money for superficial human? if it is so maybe it is not so important to work on soul development as to work on you body?

(well let me add an additional one)
4. does the soul has the intelligence like ours? can it think like we? does it perceive like we? does it feel like we do? does it have emotions like we do? does it process the memory and experience like we do? if not than that is just completely different being. so consequently the human and the soul is just coexist and interact for some period of time. but you cant say the esence ofhuman is the soul !

ps.
you should understand that terms like "gods" also can mean anithing to anyone. for someone it can be simple bunch of phisics laws, or an old man in the clouds, or ETs or whatever. so what i mean here is let's not give this things a specific fancy definitions yet. let's put substitutions for them for everyone could contribute and more significantly understand the matter of this subject.

thanks

percival tyro
11th January 2012, 19:35
Hi philosopher, The Buddhists believe in the transmigration of souls. This being the individual soul changing into sentient beings or more ethereal beings of different qualities according to the aggregates of actions in previous lives. Sentient beings, incarnating beings with senses but not necessarily having egos or the ability of self consciousness. I suppose that it might be against the karmic or the laws of creation to be able to recycle your journey/memory as a pig in one life into an incarnation as a human being in another. However, the same life force (spirit) flows through A pig or a human or a blade of grass and there is no difference. If you have incarnated into a pig, maybe you are now subject to the confines or the freedom of the laws of piggyness! with a brand new start in life. The Buddhists believe that to be given the chance or to have earned the opportunity to incarnate into a human body is very fortunate. To be able to make conscious decisions towards our spiritual evolution. There have supposedly been many saints and great souls in all world religions but they can't agree on the same theses. Maybe their illumination has just been the result of them repeatedly hitting their own bulls eye after many years of practice.

Tarka the Duck
11th January 2012, 19:44
Do they really exist as the self.. The soul.. Or are they both just an illussion?


From the Buddhist perspective (sorry, Bearcow - didn't mean to wade in here...just seen that this is part of a conversation:o), that's it!!

Greetings, Friend!

First, there is no such thing as "the Buddhist perspective", since there are numerous schools or sects of Buddhism that often offer contradictory opinions or teachings on the issue of what is illusion. For example, from one perspective, the entire path, from the beginning until final Buddhahood is completely illusory, insubstantial. Afflictions are not substantial entities in the mind that must be removed. They have no more reality than the mind they are felt to afflict. Wisdom is not something substantial which is gained by the mind. The whole network of dependent origination is insubstantial. There are no substantial members which belong to anything dependently originated. Substantiality is a deluded mental appearance, as is any method or scheme to enlighten or redeem dream characters.

:yo:

Apologies, AB - I don't really understand much of what you wrote: you are clearly much more well read than me!
I'm not really into all the different philosophies of the various schools of Buddhism...but I was pretty sure that all the schools taught that every thing is impermanent. This would include the idea of an independent self or soul, in the sense of an existence of a permanent entity that remains constant even after death...
I know that various schools of Buddhism have differing ideas about what continues after death, but that wasn't what my rely to Xerius was about.

Kathie

viscountvlad
11th January 2012, 19:52
This is an wonderful thread! it is so nice to see different peoples views.

I tend to think if someone thinks they understand the probably don't! (I certainly don't I'm not sure my brain is big enough to fit the concept inside!)
I feel there probably isn't is a single rule. My feeling (though I'm not certain and am open to all ideas) is that there is a lush forest of souls and spirits out there some spring into existence and lead short lives in one reality or another before moving on, others linger in unseen dimensions never able or never choosing or never given the change to take on a flesh and blood body and some have many flesh bodies. I don't know about destiny or purpose. We are independent consciousness existing and moving through the one source conciseness in which all things exist. Just the thoughts and dreams of God.


maybe...!

viscountvlad
11th January 2012, 20:00
Can a person live without a soul?

In my opinion they can't be detached The body is like a vehicle or a dizzyingly complex space suit for the soul.

You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body. ~C.S. Lewis (I know everyone quotes this all the time but i agree with C.S.!)

another bob
11th January 2012, 20:05
I'm not really into all the different philosophies of the various schools of Buddhism...but I was pretty sure that all the schools taught that every thing is impermanent. This would include the idea of an independent self or soul, in the sense of an existence of a permanent entity that remains constant even after death...
I know that various schools of Buddhism have differing ideas about what continues after death.

Right, so perhaps it's helpful to refer back to your own sect's exposition of the Two Truths doctrine, where the relative and the absolute views are recognized as complementary modes of perception.

:yo:

¤=[Post Update]=¤


Can a person live without a soul?

In my opinion they can't be detached The body is like a vehicle or a dizzyingly complex space suit for the soul.

You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body. ~C.S. Lewis (I know everyone quotes this all the time but i agree with C.S.!)

Actually, the human body is a separate entity with its own personality and can live without an indwelling principle.

:yo:

Tarka the Duck
11th January 2012, 20:05
I'm not really into all the different philosophies of the various schools of Buddhism...but I was pretty sure that all the schools taught that every thing is impermanent. This would include the idea of an independent self or soul, in the sense of an existence of a permanent entity that remains constant even after death...
I know that various schools of Buddhism have differing ideas about what continues after death.

Right, so perhaps it's helpful to refer back to your own sect's exposition of the Two Truths doctrine, where the relative and the absolute views are recognized as complementary modes of perception.

:yo:

My original reply to Xerius concerned the illusory nature of the skandha and self.
Are there any schools in Buddhism that hold that these are not illusory? I wasn't aware that there were.

Kathie

philosopher
11th January 2012, 20:15
Actually, the human body is a separate entity with its own personality and can live without an indwelling principle.


well now we are getting somewhere!

so at this point i have a question. why the entity that is human body should care for entity that is the soul? aren't thay live in different realms (in a sence) for different reasons and for different purposes? and what restrictions are put on human body when the soul is separeted from it?

another bob
11th January 2012, 20:17
My original reply to Xerius concerned the illusory nature of the skandha and self.
Are there any schools in Buddhism that hold that these are not illusory? I wasn't aware that there were.

The ongoing debate in Buddhist circles centers around what constitutes "illusion".

Hogen, a Chinese Zen teacher, lived alone in a small temple in the country. One day four traveling monks appeared and asked if they might make a fire in his yard to warm themselves.

While they were building the fire, Hogen heard them arguing about subjectivity and objectivity. He joined them and said: “There is a big stone. Do you consider it to be inside or outside your mind?”

One of the monks replied: “From the Buddhist viewpoint everything is an objectification of mind (illusion), so I would say that the stone is inside my mind.”

“Your head must feel very heavy,” observed Hogen, “if you are carrying around a stone like that in your mind.”


:yo:

viscountvlad
11th January 2012, 20:19
[QUOTE=Tarka the Duck;400696]

Actually, the human body is a separate entity with its own personality and can live without an indwelling principle.

:yo:

You seem very certain! I'm not going to mess up my space suit to find out just yet :p

I find this a little troubling for my moral stand point. It runs the risk of devaluing human life someone with a similar view may one day say, this group of people or other are just people, they have no God spark or soul. (if indeed you think some people do live without a soul?)

another bob
11th January 2012, 20:22
Actually, the human body is a separate entity with its own personality and can live without an indwelling principle.
so at this point i have a question. why the entity that is human body should care for entity that is the soul?

It is not aware (typically) that there is such a thing.



aren't thay live in different realms (in a sence) for different reasons and for different purposes?

No, as long as the host is alive, they are fused. They only separate at the death of the host.



and what restrictions are put on human body when the soul is separeted from it?

It follows the same natural order as all animals, motivated mainly by survival impulses.

:yo:

christian
11th January 2012, 20:23
it seems no one paid desirable attention to that "fairy tale" i wrote about the "diamond".

From my perspective it's the other way round. - There was something completly whole and perfect, that chose to experience in crude circumstances to make experiences. Now during those experiences the whole stays whole but refines whatever it focuses on and through. Like this spark, that's right now focusing through 'my' physical body is surely whole, but is working on this body, the DNA, etc., refining it - thereby refining itself. But does the wholeness really care about this physical body or all the other means, that it creates and uses to refine itself? Is it all a big game?

In the Tabula Smaragdina it says:


The work of wonders is from one.

And as all things were from the one, by means of the meditation of the one, thus all things were born from the one, by means of adaptation.

Its power is perfected if it's turned into earth.

Separate the earth from the fire, the subtle and thin from the crude and coarse, prudently, with modesty and wisdom.

It ascends from earth into heaven and again it descends to the earth, and receives the power of higher and of lower things.

Thus you will have the Glory of the whole world.

Therefore will all obscurity flee from you.

Of all strength this is true strength, because it will conquer all that is subtle, and penetrate all that is solid.

Thus was the world created.

From this were wonderful adaptations, of which this is the means.

greybeard
11th January 2012, 20:26
There is only one soul and I am it.

You can say exactly the same.

There is apparent this and that but if there is only One without a second, then all else is built upon a false premise ie that there is a an individual.

Chris

philosopher
11th January 2012, 20:26
It runs the risk of devaluing human life ...


it should appear so from the soul's point of view. but from human's point of view it is all the way around. It runs the risk of devaluing soul, isn't it.

Kendall
11th January 2012, 20:26
Our creator gave us a gift no other species on Earth has, imagination. Could imagination=a soul?

another bob
11th January 2012, 20:27
[QUOTE=Tarka the Duck;400696]

Actually, the human body is a separate entity with its own personality and can live without an indwelling principle.

:yo:

You seem very certain! I'm not going to mess up my space suit to find out just yet :p

I find this a little troubling for my moral stand point. It runs the risk of devaluing human life someone with a similar view may one day say, this group of people or other are just people, they have no God spark or soul. (if indeed you think some people do live without a soul?)


While we are in human bodies, we come to believe that we ourselves are human. That is perfectly logical, given the limitations of five physical senses and the false validation they give us about our nature. The perception of humanness is reinforced by the amnesia we experience about who we really are-eternal, powerful, spiritual beings who are part of the Source itself. But we are not, in fact, human beings. We are Beings of Light, for lack of a better term, representing facets of Source's own self-awareness and multi-dimensional personality.

We merely INHABIT human animals-as what we call "souls"-in order to experience what it is like to live as a human does. It is far more complicated than this, but the concept of humans' relationship to Source can be likened to the relationship that characters in dreams, virtual reality games, or novels have to their creators. The characters are creations of the dreamer, gamer or writer. They are not "real." But the dreamer, gamer or writer has invested a lot of his/her own personality, emotions, thoughts, and curiosity into those characters.

Source is the artist and creator in our universe. Its creations in the physical world are "manifestations" and are not "real" to Source. They are like dreams, virtual reality, or literature. Humans are part of the creative environment; they are some of the characters. We are like the dreamer's, gamer's or writer's "own personality, emotions, thoughts, and curiosity" invested into those characters. We are not the humans themselves any more than dreamers, gamers and writers are their characters.

". . . what happens with the personality "of the body" when the soul leaves its human host?"

It continues, for the most part, within the Being of Light/soul's personality. We forevermore carry with us all the thoughts, memories, sensory input and experiences of our various human hosts. And, because in our natural spiritual state we have total recall, no moment of human life is ever lost or forgotten. However, most of what we think of as the human personality is actually that of the soul inside.

"How can you tell when somebody has become soul-less?"
You can't. But don't worry about it. It does not happen very often and is nothing to fear. Every dream, virtual reality game, movie and novel has "extras"-characters that do not seem to play any major role in the plot. Think of a soulless human animal as an "extra" in the plot that is your human's life.

"And if a human being doesn't have a soul - is she then, so to say, 'disarmed' from having Light Being abilities such as consciously manifesting reality and unconditional love?"
A human never has these abilities. Only the Light Being soul does. So, yes, that person has no access to Light Being powers or abilities.

"And when the human finally dies, what happens to that very consciousness after death? Does it disappear? Is the consciousness of humans taking another part on its path than the Light Being soul when death occurs?"
Yes, that human's animal "consciousness" (if such a term legitimately applies) disappears from the manifested world. But it forever remains part of Source just like all of creation. The Light Being soul continues to evolve its way through numerous experiences and "lifetimes" until it merges back into Source.

"Could me myself maybe be without a soul right now? Am I born without a soul? How could I know?"
You cannot be without a soul because you ARE a soul. You would not be having thoughts about spirituality, life after death, and your relationship with Source if you were not a Light Being soul.

"Which people are not chosen? How many of us have souls? 99 percent? 10 percent?"

I do not have the answers to these questions. My mission is to share what Universal Knowledge "knowings" I obtained during, and remember from, my afterlife experience. And I remember only a tiny bit about this topic.

http://nancidanison.blogspot.com/search?updated-min=2009-01-01T00:00:00-05:00&updated-max=2010-01-01T00:00:00-05:00&max-results=9

:yo:

philosopher
11th January 2012, 20:33
aren't thay live in different realms (in a sence) for different reasons and for different purposes?

No, as long as the host is alive, they are fused. They only separate at the death of the host.



and what restrictions are put on human body when the soul is separeted from it?

It follows the same natural order as all animals, motivated mainly by survival impulses.



they may be fused but still aren't they live for different reasons and for different purposes?

"motivated mainly by survival impulses" - do they have an intelligence, feelings, decision making process and consciousness like humans with souls?

another bob
11th January 2012, 20:34
aren't thay live in different realms (in a sence) for different reasons and for different purposes?

No, as long as the host is alive, they are fused. They only separate at the death of the host.



and what restrictions are put on human body when the soul is separeted from it?

It follows the same natural order as all animals, motivated mainly by survival impulses.



they may be fused but still aren't they live for different reasons and for different purposes?

"motivated mainly by survival impulses" - do they have an intelligence, feelings, decision making process and consciousness like humans with souls?

Please see post above, with quote from Nanci Danison.

:yo:

viscountvlad
11th January 2012, 20:41
Thanks another bob

I'm not sure if i disagree with you or not!

I think on some things. This still doesn't alleviate my moral concerns. The fact that you or I are not willing or able to judge who else has a soul or not does not mean someone else with your view point is not prepared to say, "it's the black people or the gay people etc. who have no souls" instantly rendering them an underclass. I have lots to think about! Thanks for the link and for your thought provoking discussion

G.A
11th January 2012, 20:50
well the first one is kind of a stand up comedy but still important.
suppose some thousands years ago there were only 1000 people on the earth. and now around 7 billions. every has a soul to improve, right? so thay have got at least 7 billions of them. so where all those souls were when the were only 1000 peole?! is there some kind of a wierd wait list. as planet gets more crowded thay let jeck out and say "ok, bill your'e next". how does this works? maybe the isn't such a thing as a soul-entity. maybe it is a field of some king or matter or what ever?


I'd like to address this quoted part of your original post.

Can we agree that the source resides in higher dimensions, higher frequencies and is infinite?

If so, then the constant interaction between the infinite higher dimension flowing in and through our dimension would inhabit all possible spaces which are capable of accepting it. So the source energy is not waiting in line to assign a soul to a body, but as soon as a body is created - the soul fills it. To explain this as a metaphor - a river can constantly flow. You can place a cup into the river, and the cup will fill with water. Every time you create a new cup and place it into the river, it will instantly fill with water. The cup, by design, is accepting of the water. If you create a solid metal cube and place it in the river, it cannot accept the river's water. The water will just flow around the metal cube.

Each cup holds a tiny amount of the river's water - but at some point the cup's existence will come to an end and the water will return and unite with the river once more.

another bob
11th January 2012, 20:57
Thanks another bob

I'm not sure if i disagree with you or not!

I think on some things. This still doesn't alleviate my moral concerns. The fact that you or I are not willing or able to judge who else has a soul or not does not mean someone else with your view point is not prepared to say, "it's the black people or the gay people etc. who have no souls" instantly rendering them an underclass. I have lots to think about! Thanks for the link and for your thought provoking discussion

Greetings, Friend!

The concept of some "underclass" is a 3-D human notion, and is certainly not the perspective of a Light Being, who is coming from unconditional love and the direct recognition of all universal phenomena as projections of Source Mind. It's the humans who must be inspired to behave better, if we are to avoid the typical games of conflict endemic to the species, and that is the responsibility of the awakening soul -- to curb their animal host from its natural animal tendencies and lead it to harmony and peace.

:yo:

Jay
11th January 2012, 21:19
Thanks for interesting topic. I see there are many different takes on it. Simplistically I think the Soul, Spirit & Mind scene is like a seesaw - soul on the one side, spirit on the other with the mind & body in the middle serving the balance between the two. Hence - when the soul is well-fed or "up" then the spirit is "down" and vice versa.
http://www.sonstoglory.com/images/SpiritSoulBodyMan.jpg http://www.faithandhealthconnection.org/uploads/spirit-soul-body-mind-emotions-will.jpg

philosopher
11th January 2012, 21:19
While we are in human bodies, we come to believe that we ourselves are human. That is perfectly logical, given the limitations of five physical senses and the false validation they give us about our nature. The perception of humanness is reinforced by the amnesia we experience about who we really are-eternal, powerful, spiritual beings who are part of the Source itself. But we are not, in fact, human beings. We are Beings of Light, for lack of a better term, representing facets of Source's own self-awareness and multi-dimensional personality.

We merely INHABIT human animals-as what we call "souls"-in order to experience what it is like to live as a human does. It is far more complicated than this, but the concept of humans' relationship to Source can be likened to the relationship that characters in dreams, virtual reality games, or novels have to their creators. The characters are creations of the dreamer, gamer or writer. They are not "real." But the dreamer, gamer or writer has invested a lot of his/her own personality, emotions, thoughts, and curiosity into those characters.

......

"How can you tell when somebody has become soul-less?"
You can't.


so basicly what you are saingis:
1) soul-less human has its own intelligence, memory, feelings and consciousness, right? so it's fully functional(in a way, i mean it can play the game on its own). right?
2) so you say the soul in human body is restricted to 5 senses. so when it is ready to go to enother level it is like it gets aditional senses to those 5 to operate with or it is absolutely another
game with absolutely different set of senses?
3) so if the physical world are "manifestations" and are not "real" to Source than why that charachter we call human should bother with some "soul" and "Source" and try to develop its
spirituality? isn't the nature of the character-human should dictate him other priorities them spiritual development (cuz the human as phisical body has nothing to do with spirituality without
the soul)?

philosopher
11th January 2012, 21:28
well the first one is kind of a stand up comedy but still important.
suppose some thousands years ago there were only 1000 people on the earth. and now around 7 billions. every has a soul to improve, right? so thay have got at least 7 billions of them. so where all those souls were when the were only 1000 peole?! is there some kind of a wierd wait list. as planet gets more crowded thay let jeck out and say "ok, bill your'e next". how does this works? maybe the isn't such a thing as a soul-entity. maybe it is a field of some king or matter or what ever?


I'd like to address this quoted part of your original post.

Can we agree that the source resides in higher dimensions, higher frequencies and is infinite?

If so, then the constant interaction between the infinite higher dimension flowing in and through our dimension would inhabit all possible spaces which are capable of accepting it. So the source energy is not waiting in line to assign a soul to a body, but as soon as a body is created - the soul fills it. To explain this as a metaphor - a river can constantly flow. You can place a cup into the river, and the cup will fill with water. Every time you create a new cup and place it into the river, it will instantly fill with water. The cup, by design, is accepting of the water. If you create a solid metal cube and place it in the river, it cannot accept the river's water. The water will just flow around the metal cube.

Each cup holds a tiny amount of the river's water - but at some point the cup's existence will come to an end and the water will return and unite with the river once more.

oh, this is good. it is much closer to my perception of all that. and it is also an interesting analogy with the river and cups. it gives some simple model to understand it regardless to your actual belief system (would it be science or religion or whatever). that is kind of representation i used to.
thank you

so we have that cup and a whater in it for a while. in some way one affects enother. at some point cup ceases to exist. but that in some way affected water flows ahead.
so now the following question appear. is it a divine plan or is it merely a nature of things? is that water a part of evolving "matter" or some "field"? or is it just a water that will be used by someone for some purposes?

RedeZra
11th January 2012, 21:45
in the New Testament there is a distinction between spirit and soul


spirit is pneuma in Greek and perhaps prana in Vedic the breath of life

soul is psyche in Greek and more refined body and the seat of our dreams hopes and source of our impressions

---

please red think before you type

prana is not pneuma or spirit but atman is

another bob
11th January 2012, 21:55
so basicly what you are saingis:
1) soul-less human has its own intelligence, memory, feelings and consciousness, right? so it's fully functional(in a way, i mean it can play the game on its own). right?

Yes



2) so you say the soul in human body is restricted to 5 senses. so when it is ready to go to enother level it is like it gets aditional senses to those 5 to operate with or it is absolutely another
game with absolutely different set of senses?

yes



3) so if the physical world are "manifestations" and are not "real" to Source than why that charachter we call human should bother with some "soul" and "Source" and try to develop its
spirituality?

How many humans believe they are here to develop spiritually?


isn't the nature of the character-human should dictate him other priorities them spiritual development (cuz the human as phisical body has nothing to do with spirituality without
the soul)?

you mean other priorities like greed, hatred, envy, and fear?

:yo:

Wind
11th January 2012, 22:01
This is a great thread!

Souls are our true essence and the human body is our earthly vessel. Our soul is not controlled by ego, although I'm not sure about the personality part...

We are God and God is us. Ultimately we are all One.

I can't put it better than that. :)

Seikou-Kishi
11th January 2012, 22:05
in the New Testament there is a distinction between spirit and soul


spirit is pneuma in Greek and perhaps prana in Vedic the breath of life

soul is psyche in Greek and more refined body and the seat of our dreams hopes and source of our impressions

---

please red think before you type

prana is not pneuma or spirit but atman is

That's an important distinction to make.

Our spirit is the subtler of the two and the soul is denser, more emotional and something of an interface for the spirit in connecting to the body.

Anchor
11th January 2012, 22:24
I was talking elsewhere about pre-incarnational choices and gave my definition of a soul. Seems relevant to this thread...

--
[My terms of reference are mostly out of the law of one. This is my fallible interpretation. I reserve the right to have some of this wrong, because I never claimed to be an expert - but this is something I personally have given a lot of time to and its a view that I find works well for me at my point on my path.]

In the sequence of concepts following, each depends on the preceding one. If you suddenly find that you cant accept a stage, then my way of explaining may likely fail - and I am sorry.

Our eternal souls are individualized components of the one infinite creator, themselves immeasurably complex infinite clouds of the all. What we say is a soul is a reflection of the one infinite creator. It is itself, thus, created in the image of the creator. That they seem to be both individual, yet all is of course seems like a paradox.

The abstract notion I aim for here is the idea that within our individualized, self administering eternal soul, there is a connection with all that is - which includes all other souls and all of creation. At the very deepest levels of that web, what is experienced by one is experienced by all, but there are layers and for our ones our access does not proceed through all those layers by design.

This is so that the one infinite creator can experience itself in an infinitely complex way, in order to understand what I have assumed to be the infinitely intricate and complex problem of itself.

The motivator for this arrangement is freewill, and the freewill of the creator and the creative ability is necessarily mirrored in the freewill of its souls.

A soul desires experience and all souls being on different paths will inevitably desire different kinds of experience as they go on and on, rounding out their sets of experience. It would seem that certain clusters of learning have resulted in the archetypes of density and each soul persistently experiences the densities until the next layer of the mystery. These clusters and archetypes are formed by features of our manifest space/time creation known as logos and sub-logos ( of which our sun is one ). Planets and stars are archetypal structures, as is the human form in our part of the universe.

An evolving soul therefore desires certain types or categories of experience/lesson in an incarnational episode, and so it selects within its energy bodies certain distortions and entry into a suitable illusion (heaps missed out about other planets etc, just focusing on 3rd density Earth which, as it is itself an sophisticated and advanced being with a soul, at no less, on the verge of its own migration to higher densities, makes it somewhat interesting for those incarnated on it!)

These desires of the soul and programming are the "pre-incarnational choices" and this is done at such a high level and such a lot of co-operation with other souls that what we know as destiny can be "programmed" with a very high degree of precision. Our companions, guides and selves work to keep things on track. I read somewhere a long time ago (sorry no reference) that clustered around Earth are around 60 billion human souls bound into the karmic cycle of incarnation and learning with the Earth herself, and then you have all the wanderers that came to help the Earth with her ascension problems; and the concomitant problems caused in her human inhabitants - which wanderers by taking a soul contract with Earth, also become incarnated and themselves subject to the laws of Karma.

So to recap, souls incarnate to learn. They have their own lesson plans. They have programmed their mind/body/spirit complexes and have agreement with others to create what we may loosely define as destiny - and in that various learning catalyst will present itself to the incarnated being.

On incarnation the veil of confusion masks the sub-conscious mind that knows all this from the conscious minds - this is penetrable in stages but most people would agree its not plain sailing!

I make specific mention of Wanderers because I am certain that there are very many on this forum and on project Avalon. Wanderers themselves will also take pre-incarnational choices that are skewed to help them round out their own accumulated evolutionary knots of wisdom.

---

Hope thats food for thought. I'd be interested in feedback - I have been developing a way of attempting to explain my ideas for a while.

truthseekerdan
11th January 2012, 22:29
Our creator gave us a gift no other species on Earth has, imagination. Could imagination=a soul?

Please don't think that only humans have imagination, that is in itself a limitation. It is well known that elephants, dolphins, as well as other species have what we call imagination. We need to understand that everything (ALL) is One Consciousness experiencing itself through many levels of awarness (human, animal, plant, etc.).

It seems that humans have labeled their consciousness level (awareness), as having a 'soul', therefore believing that they are a separate fragment which is actually an illusion -- rather 'we are' facets of the One Infinite Consciousness Whole, having an illusionary experience of being separate...

philosopher
11th January 2012, 22:40
isn't the nature of the character-human should dictate him other priorities them spiritual development (cuz the human as phisical body has nothing to do with spirituality without
the soul)?

you mean other priorities like greed, hatred, envy, and fear?



not exactly. let's consider human no differ from any other life form (is it an enimal of some sort or one celled organism). infact let's call it all living matter. so basically what is common in all that living matter, what drives it? let's take the basic instincts like self preservation and procreation. it is what one cell organisms have and what humans have at the very core of their phisical essence as living matter. let's suppose that evolutionary process (it is not sould be exactly darwinian) made a human from a one celled organism. and all what human gained compared to that one celled organism is all for the purpose to uphold and execute self preservation and procreation more efficiently (or more precise with higher probability of success). so now those two the most primitive principles drive our intelligense. now we really start looking for the self preservstion intelligently. what is the pinnacle of self preservation. those are eternal existence and vulnerability. so how can still primitive brain satisfy that basic instinct of self preservstion. metaphorically speaking brain say to him self "well, body is a mortal thing and i can't do nothing with it. so it is better for me to think that there is something like eternal soul. so even if my body is dead i as a soul will exist forever". so in that way our brain through self deception "calmes down" that self preservation instinct.

so what i'm trying to say here is that it is not greed, hatred, envy, and fear priorities to uphold but self preservation.

in fact i think that greed, hatred, envy, and fear can be infered from self preservation and procreation instincts. but that is all another story.

Muzz
11th January 2012, 22:41
Hope thats food for thought. I'd be interested in feedback - I have been developing a way of attempting to explain my ideas for a while.

Hi John

That is a great post. Makes a lot of sense. I wonder if all of us on this world are here to experience fear in all its forms and overcome it.

another bob
11th January 2012, 22:53
in fact i think that greed, hatred, envy, and fear can be infered from self preservation and procreation instincts. but that is all another story.



No, I'd say that pretty much is the human story (particularly when it is without the input from the Indwelling Principle/Light Being Soul).

The real "other story" consists of the fact that we are not the body, the human, and indeed not anything that can be named or conceived by the human intellect.

Our own level of awareness will determine our angle of vision in this, as in all such matters.

:yo:

Lettherebelight
11th January 2012, 22:58
A verse from theBhagavad Gita...

BG 2.13: As the embodied soul continuously passes, in this body, from boyhood to youth to old age, the soul similarly passes into another body at death. A sober person is not bewildered by such a change.

BG 2.16: Those who are seers of the truth have concluded that of the nonexistent [the material body] there is no endurance and of the eternal [the soul] there is no change. This they have concluded by studying the nature of both.

BG 2.17: That which pervades the entire body you should know to be indestructible. No one is able to destroy that imperishable soul.

philosopher
11th January 2012, 23:10
The real "other story" consists of the fact that we are not the body...


questions.
well first of all who said it? is it you soul made your body write this or this is you body wrote it beliving it is the truth? kepping in mind of course that you claimed that there is no way of telling if the body has a soul or not.

what makes phisical body say that it is more then that body?

ok if you not your body but a soul consiquently the soul must say those actual words by controlling the body. because as boby is just a vessel it can not say "i'm more than i'm".

Lettherebelight
11th January 2012, 23:22
More on the soul from the Srimad Bhagavad Gita...

BG 2.22: As a person puts on new garments, giving up old ones, the soul similarly accepts new material bodies, giving up the old and useless ones.

BG 2.23: The soul can never be cut to pieces by any weapon, nor burned by fire, nor moistened by water, nor withered by the wind.

BG 2.24: This individual soul is unbreakable and insoluble, and can be neither burned nor dried. He is everlasting, present everywhere, unchangeable, immovable and eternally the same.

BG 2.25: It is said that the soul is invisible, inconceivable and immutable. Knowing this, you should not grieve for the body.

BG 2.26: If, however, you think that the soul [or the symptoms of life] is always born and dies forever, you still have no reason to lament, O mighty-armed.

BG 2.27: One who has taken his birth is sure to die, and after death one is sure to take birth again. Therefore, in the unavoidable discharge of your duty, you should not lament.

BG 2.28: All created beings are unmanifest in their beginning, manifest in their interim state, and unmanifest again when annihilated. So what need is there for lamentation?

BG 2.29: Some look on the soul as amazing, some describe him as amazing, and some hear of him as amazing, while others, even after hearing about him, cannot understand him at all.


Knowledge of the soul is freely available for everyone, and is everyone's birthright. But this is the information TPTB do not want people become aware of. It would surely be their undoing.

So let's crack it open and distribute it freely.

philosopher
11th January 2012, 23:35
Our own level of awareness will determine our angle of vision in this, as in all such matters.



well let me elaborate on that let's look at this in this way. there are empirical data. those are your senses you experience and it all stored in you memory. now your belief system is that model wich tries to describe all those empirical evidences you'v collected through all your life. you might say that awareness is that same model. one of cource can have very simple model like that medieval religious fanatic that knows nothing about the world and everithing he encounters with that is unknown to him he explains with the way of god or god's will. on the other hand you have someone like isaac newton. once the apple fell on his head he started looking for the model that would explain it. so eventually he came up with the actual physical law and its mathematical description. you see those two guys had their own modeles for particular things. in fact that fist guy model can't be disproved it is perfect in a way and you can describe virtually anything with it. but the question is in what way and how aware do you want to be? like medieval religious fanatic or like isaac newton?

bearcow
11th January 2012, 23:48
Thanks Bearcow.. So we can say the 5 skandhas are only temporary and will cease to exist after we depart the physical body? Can we say now that the spirit can be our guide or conscience.. The guardian angel or the inner voice that influence us for the good and further development of our being? I still hav some difficulty trying to understand the skandhas.. Are they considered the sudden impulse? The desire? Do they really exist as the self.. The soul.. Or are they both just an illussion?

the 5 skandhas are your karmic tendencies, they continue on after your death and are the momentum within yourself that pulls you back into the cycle of rebirth. they arise from your control (or lack thereof) of the primal elemental forces within you. they are ultimately an illusion but as real or more so as the waking world around you.



Quote Do they really exist as the self.. The soul.. Or are they both just an illussion?
From the Buddhist perspective (sorry, Bearcow - didn't mean to wade in here...just seen that this is part of a conversation), that's it!!

they are also recognized in the hindu, taoist, and hermetic traditions, they just go under different names.


First, there is no such thing as "the Buddhist perspective", since there are numerous schools or sects of Buddhism that often offer contradictory opinions or teachings on the issue of what is illusion. For example, from one perspective, the entire path, from the beginning until final Buddhahood is completely illusory, insubstantial. Afflictions are not substantial entities in the mind that must be removed. They have no more reality than the mind they are felt to afflict. Wisdom is not something substantial which is gained by the mind. The whole network of dependent origination is insubstantial. There are no substantial members which belong to anything dependently originated. Substantiality is a deluded mental appearance, as is any method or scheme to enlighten or redeem dream characters.

spoken like a zen Buddhist. this is of course true but few are able to grasp the truth without understanding the nature of the illusion. food for thought.


Actually, the human body is a separate entity with its own personality and can live without an indwelling principle.

the individual personality exists in the astral, the brain/body acts as a focus point for the soul (astral body) to have sophisticated expression and reflection.


so at this point i have a question. why the entity that is human body should care for entity that is the soul? aren't thay live in different realms (in a sence) for different reasons and for different purposes? and what restrictions are put on human body when the soul is separeted from it?


the thing you think of as "you", your ego, is that soul. you are not separated from it, you are it. it is made up of astral substance. most are somewhat separated from their spirit.



There is only one soul and I am it.

You can say exactly the same.

There is apparent this and that but if there is only One without a second, then all else is built upon a false premise ie that there is a an individual.

this is all well and good, but if you speak in vague generalities about the nature of things, you will only have general understanding. There is a science to the nature of the higher realms. Terminology is important, reflection is needed, the axiom "as above so below" must be understood in a practical way.



if so, then the constant interaction between the infinite higher dimension flowing in and through our dimension would inhabit all possible spaces which are capable of accepting it. So the source energy is not waiting in line to assign a soul to a body, but as soon as a body is created - the soul fills it. To explain this as a metaphor - a river can constantly flow. You can place a cup into the river, and the cup will fill with water. Every time you create a new cup and place it into the river, it will instantly fill with water. The cup, by design, is accepting of the water. If you create a solid metal cube and place it in the river, it cannot accept the river's water. The water will just flow around the metal cube.

for the average person, the (body) container holds not water but a substance (astral energy) more like the consistency of jello. so when it leaves the cup behind it will be able to hold itself together for a measure of time under normal circumstances. what goes on from life to life is taken from this "jello" and condensed into a more stable form. think about this statement if you want to understand what will happens to your personality once you pass on.



That's an important distinction to make.

Our spirit is the subtler of the two and the soul is denser, more emotional and something of an interface for the spirit in connecting to the body.

very important

Deega
11th January 2012, 23:59
Thanks Philosopher, very interesting Tread, one where it is difficult to have a clear distinction between soul and spirit.

I Googled "Soul VS Spirit" and here one distinction, but it has references to the BIble. I'll try to find scientific, other references and be back if I find something.

"The soul and the spirit are the two primary immaterial aspects that Scripture ascribes to humanity. It can be confusing to attempt to discern the precise differences between the two. The word “spirit” refers only to the immaterial facet of humanity. Human beings have a spirit, but are we not spirits. However, in Scripture, only believers are said to be spiritually alive (1 Corinthians 2:11; Hebrews 4:12; James 2:26), while unbelievers are spiritually dead (Ephesians 2:1-5; Colossians 2:13). In Paul's writing, the spiritual was pivotal to the life of the believer (1 Corinthians 2:14; 3:1; Ephesians 1:3; 5:19; Colossians 1:9; 3:16). The spirit is the element in humanity which gives us the ability to have an intimate relationship with God. Whenever the word “spirit” is used, it refers to the immaterial part of humanity that “connects” with God, who Himself is spirit (John 4:24).

The word “soul” can refer to both the immaterial and material aspects of humanity. Unlike human beings having a spirit, human beings are souls. In its most basic sense, the word “soul” means “life.” However, beyond this essential meaning, the Bible speaks of the soul in many contexts. One of these is humanity’s eagerness to sin (Luke 12:26). Humanity is naturally evil, and our souls are tainted as a result. The life principle of the soul is removed at the time of physical death (Genesis 35:18; Jeremiah 15:2). The soul, as with the spirit, is the center of many spiritual and emotional experiences (Job 30:25; Psalm 43:5; Jeremiah 13:17). Whenever the word “soul” is used, it can refer to the whole person, whether alive or in the afterlife.

The soul and the spirit are connected, but separable (Hebrews 4:12). The soul is the essence of humanity’s being; it is who we are. The spirit is the aspect of humanity that connects with God".

Reference : http://www.gotquestions.org/soul-spirit.html

All the best.

Deega

another bob
12th January 2012, 00:34
The real "other story" consists of the fact that we are not the body...


questions.
well first of all who said it?

Yes, this is an excellent inquiry! It reminds me of another one: Who is dragging this corpse around?

That's a a wonderful Zen koan. If you try and answer with the human intellect, you will not get very far, however. So too with all your other questions -- start at the beginning and inspect your own sense of beingness itself. Your real questions cannot be answered by another, since whatever they say is based on their own experience, which is not yours. In this case, you need to directly experience the bodiless state, otherwise whatever you know will only be from hearsay.

:yo:

Deega
12th January 2012, 00:50
Hi Philosopher,

Wikipedia has defined "soul", here is the following.

A soul – in certain spiritual, philosophical, and psychological traditions – is the incorporeal essence of a person, living thing or object. Many philosophical and spiritual systems teach that humans have souls, and others teach that all living things and even inanimate objects (such as rivers) have souls. The latter belief is commonly called animism. Soul can function as a synonym for spirit, mind or self; scientific works, in particular often consider soul as a synonym for mind.

Reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soul

Also, I have found this video with the title "Science saved my Soul", very interesting, we are part of this grandeur, amazing!


r6w2M50_Xdk

All the best to you.

Deega

Deega
12th January 2012, 00:58
GLbE6aHjF7g

Anchor
12th January 2012, 01:06
I see the souls as the eternal part. The mind/body/spirit as the incarnated part, with the spirit acting as the link to the soul. Others here have put it the other way around which is interesting - it still works for me but the soul is the eternal part.

Questions (which are not linked, independent contexts):

Is the Christian "holy ghost" soul or spirit?

When one dies, is it not the spirit that leaves the body?

another bob
12th January 2012, 01:14
Is the Christian "holy ghost" soul or spirit?

Shakti



When one dies, is it not the spirit that leaves the body?

You leave the body.

What are you?

Now that's the best question!

:yo:

RedeZra
12th January 2012, 01:26
Our spirit is the subtler of the two and the soul is denser, more emotional and something of an interface for the spirit in connecting to the body.

in the New Testament it is possible to lose the soul

"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul? - Mark 8:36

and if the soul is lost then i am lost no more me


so what says the Advaita gang finally free


but i am supposed to get to know the spirit within and bring the soul to God

if i lose it i lost

another bob
12th January 2012, 01:32
if the soul is lost then i am lost no more me

When your soul is in the Lost & Found, who comes along to claim it?

:yo:

RedeZra
12th January 2012, 01:56
if the soul is lost then i am lost no more me

When your soul is in the Lost & Found, who comes along to claim it?

:yo:

there is Only One and so the soul is a gift of God

if i abuse it i lose it and if i cherish it i win it

for how long i don't know

another bob
12th January 2012, 04:03
there is Only One and so the soul is a gift of God

if i abuse it i lose it and if i cherish it i win it

for how long i don't know


Who this the one who abuses, loses, cherishes, and wins souls?

If they can do that, then they must be prior to the soul's appearance.

They must be before the soul.

So, to whom or what is the soul an object?

Who or what is this "I"?

:yo:

wolf_rt
12th January 2012, 04:41
As to the percentage of Humans who are ensouled, i have heard the figure of 65% put out there, in regard to the current population of 7 billion...
If i attempt to fit this to my circle of friends and acquaintances though, the number seems far higher.
I believe this is due to the fact that 'like attracts like' and un-ensouled humans do not enjoy my company. (or it could just be rubbish)

I think that other animals who display creativity are ensouled (dolphins especially) but i do not believe there is any cross over (if this is even possible) we have each chosen our journey.

so basically what is common in all that living matter, what drives it?

Spirit, i think... All living things have spirit... I would go as far as to say that all matter IS spirit.

But what is the point of self preservation? If you exclude spirit and soul, i can see no point in continuing life.
To me, 'The meaning of life' is to experience... but what good is this experience if it dies with you? None at all... All life forms share the principal of self presevation, so i conclude that all life is (has) spirit.

I do not believe in the Buddhist idea that 'you' can inhabit a 'lower' animal... In a way you 'are' already the animal, as all spirit comes from/is one... But i don't see this concept as being particularly useful to 'my' journey at the moment.

So whats the point? Well spirit is all things, necessary for experience. Soul is the 'you' or interface necessary for 'individual' experience for the benefit of the 'Higher self/group soul'.

Why or how Spirit manifests as a 'Higher self' who desires these experiences i have no clue, other than the 'Source' desires it....

Clear as mud, i know...lol

RedeZra
12th January 2012, 05:56
there is Only One and so the soul is a gift of God

if i abuse it i lose it and if i cherish it i win it

for how long i don't know


Who this the one who abuses, loses, cherishes, and wins souls?

If they can do that, then they must be prior to the soul's appearance.

They must be before the soul.

So, to whom or what is the soul an object?

Who or what is this "I"?

:yo:

i am soul and God is with me


as two birds on a tree

i am active and I AM Aware


I See everything while i think nobody is looking

Jenci
12th January 2012, 06:39
Is the Christian "holy ghost" soul or spirit?

Shakti



When one dies, is it not the spirit that leaves the body?

You leave the body.

What are you?

Now that's the best question!

:yo:

Exactly. What am I?
This is the question only for the individual.
The question is still here, despite all the intellectual answers.
The seeking still remains.

What am I?
No need to answer the question, just stay with the question.

It will lead you to the Source of all
Even the Source of the spirit and the soul.

Jeanette

another bob
12th January 2012, 06:50
What am I?
No need to answer the question, just stay with the question.

It will lead you to the Source of all
Even the Source of the spirit and the soul.

Yes. accept no substitutes!

:yo:

RedeZra
12th January 2012, 06:51
Is the Christian "holy ghost" soul or spirit?

When one dies, is it not the spirit that leaves the body?


the Holy ghost or the Holy spirit is... right spirit of God


i think soul is like suit for spirit within and i believe we are souls


if we want to be sons and daughters of the Great spirit then we need to connect to the spirit within

RedeZra
12th January 2012, 07:07
let God be God and let us Get to know God

God never says no to a soul who loves God

philosopher
12th January 2012, 09:21
[quote]When one dies, is it not the spirit that leaves the body?

You leave the body.

What are you?

Now that's the best question!

:yo:



if the soul is lost then i am lost no more me

When your soul is in the Lost & Found, who comes along to claim it?

:yo:




there is Only One and so the soul is a gift of God

if i abuse it i lose it and if i cherish it i win it

for how long i don't know


Who this the one who abuses, loses, cherishes, and wins souls?

If they can do that, then they must be prior to the soul's appearance.

They must be before the soul.

So, to whom or what is the soul an object?

Who or what is this "I"?

:yo:

i think those a right questions from another bob! i totaly support them. but those answers by RedeZra is just not satisfying for me. can someone elaborate on those questions more?

Jenci
12th January 2012, 09:34
[quote]When one dies, is it not the spirit that leaves the body?

You leave the body.

What are you?

Now that's the best question!

:yo:



if the soul is lost then i am lost no more me

When your soul is in the Lost & Found, who comes along to claim it?

:yo:




there is Only One and so the soul is a gift of God

if i abuse it i lose it and if i cherish it i win it

for how long i don't know


Who this the one who abuses, loses, cherishes, and wins souls?

If they can do that, then they must be prior to the soul's appearance.

They must be before the soul.

So, to whom or what is the soul an object?

Who or what is this "I"?

:yo:

i think those a right questions from another bob! i totaly support them. but those answers by RedeZra is just not satisfying for me. can someone elaborate on those questions more?

Hi Philospher,
I refer you back to what I said in post #74.

When the questions still remain, despite the answers you have been given, then it is time to seek the answers within.

Ask the questions of yourself but do not answer them from the same mind which is looking for answers here on this forum.
If you stay with the question, it will lead you to the answer.
Take the question right within you and just hold it there.

This is what Bob is also suggesting when he says:
Who is it that claims the soul?
Who loses and wins the soul?
Who or What am I?

The emphasis here is on the Who or the What.

Jeanette

philosopher
12th January 2012, 09:52
Hi Philospher,
I refer you back to what I said in post #74.

When the questions still remain, despite the answers you have been given, then it is time to seek the answers within.

Ask the questions of yourself but do not answer them from the same mind which is looking for answers here on this forum.
If you stay with the question, it will lead you to the answer.
Take the question right within you and just hold it there.

This is what Bob is also suggesting when he says:
Who is it that claims the soul?
Who loses and wins the soul?
Who or What am I?

The emphasis here is on the Who or the What.

Jeanette

so tell me Jeanette what would be you answers to those questions?

Jenci
12th January 2012, 10:06
Hi Philospher,
I refer you back to what I said in post #74.

When the questions still remain, despite the answers you have been given, then it is time to seek the answers within.

Ask the questions of yourself but do not answer them from the same mind which is looking for answers here on this forum.
If you stay with the question, it will lead you to the answer.
Take the question right within you and just hold it there.

This is what Bob is also suggesting when he says:
Who is it that claims the soul?
Who loses and wins the soul?
Who or What am I?

The emphasis here is on the Who or the What.

Jeanette

so tell me Jeanette what would be you answers to those questions?

There is no answer as such.
It's the question which has the power....it leads to not an answer but a knowing.

Over time, as this question is asked, the knowing will grow until all questions get burned.

The reason why we question in the first place is to find out what we are....what is a soul?...what is spirit?....what is God? We may get given answers and descriptions and these may satisfy our questions for a while. But if the seeking is great, the impulse to return to Source is strong, then the answers we are given anywhere outside of us will never satisfy the question.

So we have no choice but to go within. You already know the answer, so it is just a question of remembering because it is hidden from you.

It doesn't happen straight away so the more time spent with the question and discarding everything you are not, the more it will lead you Home.
Jeanette

philosopher
12th January 2012, 11:08
well what i'v concluded over the years is that it is the matter of perception for everybody. but perception is a very subjective thing. well very long time ago people would say that lightning is something that god does when he gets angry. the years go by and people dont say that any more. now let's take a monk from tibet. through all his life he meditates and develops his spirituality. through all that practice he experiences lots of spiritual stuff that he can't explain without term "soul" (or whatever those guys call it). he perceives the world on the other level. it's like this understanding desends on him fron above. now let's consider a scientist. a hell of a good one. he has got this incredible intuition inside of him. so he can discover amzing relationships and connections in the physical world. so he is able to create theories that more precise and much more explain of physical world around him. now let's take a hippie. he takes another dope of acid and he also experiences something beyond. and even though every of those guys lives in the same phisical world every one of them percives the world around in completely different ways. you can't possibly compare thair experiences and perseptions. thay are so individual and unique you can't even describe them properly to the other person. so what you are basically saing is "well you should look for it inside yorself then. you should have you own way with it". so eventually it is agread by majority to attach tags to that like "soul", "spirit", "god" or "source".

you should understand one thing. i dont try to deny the existance of something like "soul", "spirit", "god", "source" or whatever you call it. but i find it hard to break it down intelectualy to simple pieces.

when you say somethig like "the one got bored to be one. he stuck in his development. so he decided to divide him self to be able to develop and evolve".

there is so much question and controversy with that kind of story you wouldn believe. well if that "one" has the potential to evolve he is far far away from being what you would call almighty, right? you should also understand that story can be just a metaphor for something far more physical you think it is. for example david wilcok's take on the third eye. unlike some of you who would believe the third eye is something from above or it's manifestation of connection with the divine he claims it to be a spesific physical organ in the brain (pineal gland).

lets look at this from RedeZra: "there is Only One and so the soul is a gift of God".
who or what is god?
who or what is One?
what means term gift in there? as i understand gift is something you shouldn't return eventually, right?
so for me all that RedeZra saying is very inconsistent and amorphous. (i do like those bible qoutes though)

so does enyone thinks it can be explain in more solid or even in some degree scientific terms?
or is it useless an we should drop this discussion?

Billy
12th January 2012, 11:28
I posted this comment here http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?19206-The-Inelia-thread&p=211884#post211884 May last year. I hope this helps.

QUOTE:
Yes i think i would also like to add to the term Spirit/Soul if i may. Spirit and soul are 2 out of the 3 energies which make up your completeness as a human being, The 3rd being Mind, When Mind, Spirit and soul are blended together completely, You have pure energy which is pure soul,

SPIRIT is the soul that manifests both in the physical world and the atmosphere of the physical world. It is the vehicle, it is the astral body.

MIND is connected to the soul, The mind is the intelligence of the soul.

The Mind is connected to the soul, Spirit is connected to the body, The Soul is independent of the body, Not "in" the body, The soul is connected to the Etheric Body.
3 bodies, Etheric, Astral and Physical. Like an egg, the chick is the Physical body, The membrane is the Astral Body and the Shell is the Etheric. ( The Cover )

The Physical body takes form, also the soul takes form, There is no death of the soul or spirit or of emotionally experienced energy. We do not become enlightened through the passing of death, When we pass over, WE Are Who We Are here on earth, Our time on earth is our time to become Enlightened. Please be in control of you Physical Body as those that want to control gain access to your soul, Do not allow other own your soul.

SPIRIT.
All Spirit, ALL that is each of you contained within self, is all the essence of the divine source creator contained within each of you continues into eternity.


There is a time coming when a soul will have full memory of the agreement of choosing mother and father, Therefore the importance of that family will be the bringing forth a SOUL, and for that soul to nurture the parents and both parents to nurture that soul for the evolutionary and universal growth.
Barriers will fall away, The heaviness of the density will Peel away in preparation for the Blooming of Mother Earth.

I think this is a fantastic thread, everyone can learn so much here, Thank you Inelia and Bill and everyone for sharing their thoughts, wisdom and Knowledge, This is my input for just now, I hope it is not off topic.

Bless Ya All

wolf_rt
12th January 2012, 11:36
so does enyone thinks it can be explain in more solid or even in some degree scientific terms?

I do...

and indeed i think we have mad a good start at doing exactly that.. But having it clearly defined isn't going to answer your questions... AnotherBob and Jenci have shown you how to do that.

I'm not sure what you want out of this thread though... Do you want somebody to rip it out of your body and display it to you on a silver platter??? You would be on the platter.. and have no body...lol



Billyji, you seem to be one of those who have 'opposite' (to me) definitions of spirit and soul???

Anchor
12th January 2012, 11:43
Its going to be hard to nail this down I think.

I hear "Eternal Soul" a lot, but not "Eternal Spirit"

The way I understand spirit, is that it is a thing, a incorporeal connection between mind/body and eternal soul. It exists for the duration of incarnation, retreating from the body on death. A shuttle bus for experience between the incarnated body and the souls gateway to the store of its wisdom.

The conduit between the space/time of the mind/body/spirit and the time/space of soul.

philosopher
12th January 2012, 11:44
so the more time spent with the question and discarding everything you are not, the more it will lead you Home.


onece againe. let's consider that story about ONE. so there is ONE. he gets bored. he devides him self into pieces. the purpose for that pieces is to "evolve" (or what you call it) to bacome that ONE again.

well let me tell you another farry tale.
immagine some very evolved creature (you may call them ETs) that inhabits the earth. those are being of great intelect with telepathic abilities. thay share one consciousness. they like beehive (as you know thay too have this "group intelect", together thay can "think" on a far more sofisticated level then one isolated bee can on it self) but on much highter level. they like that ONE. thay all create that group intelect and conciousness.
now lets suppose the sun blows up. destroys everithing. all that solar system turns to ashes. and the process begins once again. from all that dust borns new solar system (it's an elementary astronomy). the life begins once again. but it begins from that primitive one celled organism. and starts to evolve to those creatures before the distruction of that solar system. let's say human is a creature that is in the middle of that evolutionary process. and we evolve - like phisical bodies - to become that one consciousness once again.

as you see my fairy tale in no worse if not better than any of explanation above. infact in that tale you just substitute certain terms and notions and you get any of those stories above. and yet my story makes much more sence for pure intelect. doesn't it?

having this thing called internet. aren't we already share some common consciousness (in maybe some primitive form). aren't we already the ONE on a early stages. we share thoughts and ideas with all planet, we in a way think colectively.

can we say that soul is some rather law that says whatever you do you will evolve in a sertain way to a certain creature?

Jenci
12th January 2012, 11:59
so the more time spent with the question and discarding everything you are not, the more it will lead you Home.


onece againe. let's consider that story about ONE. so there is ONE. he gets bored.
What you are talking about here is TWO, not ONE.

You say 'there is ONE, he gets bored'

So you have 'ONE' and you have 'bored'

You have something/someone experiencing boredom. This is not the ONE.

Understanding that the ONE, really is the ONE, can only be done through going within and actually shifting your perception from what is is now, to the ONE's.


can we say that soul is some rather law that says whatever you do you will evolve in a sertain way to a certain creature?
No, but some people may say that. You can have all sorts of ideas and descriptions of this, whether personal, or from religions or from scientists and they may be interesting and satisfy some people's quest for understanding.

But they are very limited and will never hand you that soul on that platter saying ' here it is'

Jeanette

wolf_rt
12th January 2012, 12:04
'God' isn't looking to evolve, but to experience... You'll have to ask 'him' (yourself) why. lol.

To carry on your 'fairy tale':

These being's who were 'one' got blown up... so there all sitting around with no body's and no planet...
So they see this other planet with all these 'Human' animals on it, and think "lets use these body's to experience"

then they think "when we were 'one' it was a bit dull, nothing interesting ever happened, because we all thought and acted the same, lets try something different"
"If we agree to forget everything every time we change body's, then everybody will think different things and it will be more interesting"
"ok lets go".... and here we are.

percival tyro
12th January 2012, 12:28
Hi badbob You say "the human body is a separate entity with its own personality and can live without an indwelling principle". Under what conditions would it care to be in touch with its own soul or group soul. If it was thinking with the heart, could it achieve this without soul contact.

Taurean
12th January 2012, 12:40
Something just occurred to me,

Why does the physical body have to go through some sort of a trauma and cease to function in order to release the Soul ?

I mean, it would be a lot better if we could upgrade before we became out of date.

philosopher
12th January 2012, 12:47
Something just occurred to me,

Why does the physical body have to go through some sort of a trauma and cease to function in order to release the Soul ?

I mean, it would be a lot better if we could upgrade before we became out of date.

i think i know what the answer would be. it is not that body releases the soul as much as soul leaves the body.

percival tyro
12th January 2012, 13:07
Would the One comprise.the knower the knowing and the known.

Jenci
12th January 2012, 13:12
Would the One comprise.the knower the knowing and the known.

Yes, without any distinction between any of them.

Jeanette

Sunspiritsmiles
12th January 2012, 14:06
RE > what is a Soul?

As everything is a thread of vibrational energy which is forever expanding, the soul journeys through evolution and the spirit is the driving force.

Unity of Oneness

RedeZra
12th January 2012, 15:34
lets look at this from RedeZra: "there is Only One and so the soul is a gift of God".
who or what is god?
who or what is One?
what means term gift in there? as i understand gift is something you shouldn't return eventually, right?
so for me all that RedeZra saying is very inconsistent and amorphous. (i do like those bible qoutes though)



what i understand from the Bible is that there is a time limit

and when time is up

we will be weighted on the scales of the Justice of God


God know that most will be found wanting on the scales because of sin

and therefore cannot come into the Kingdom of God


but out of love God sent Jesus to nail all the sins of the world to the Cross

so we don't have to wait to see if we come up short on the scales of Justice

as we can just attach ourselves to the Mercy of Jesus


do we know Jesus and more importantly does Jesus know us ?

blake
12th January 2012, 18:03
hello everybody

that question has been bugging me for some time now.
all those ancient scriptures and new age fellas constantly telling us that "body is nothing and soul is everything", "real you is not your body but the soul", "the soul improves from life to life and that's what important" etc.

but instantly some questions rise.

well the first one is kind of a stand up comedy but still important.
suppose some thousands years ago there were only 1000 people on the earth. and now around 7 billions. every has a soul to improve, right? so thay have got at least 7 billions of them. so where all those souls were when the were only 1000 peole?! is there some kind of a wierd wait list. as planet gets more crowded thay let jeck out and say "ok, bill your'e next". how does this works? maybe the isn't such a thing as a soul-entity. maybe it is a field of some king or matter or what ever?


second, if soul is real and the goal is to develop it why in every next life i dont remember my previous ones? logic would tell i should. cuz once i gained an experience i should use it for all my future endeavours, souldn't i? isn't that what the lerning process is all about - you do something that is wrong you get whipped and afterwords you don't do it any more cuz now you know the consequences.

but what we get instestead. we get through lot's of things through our many lives and reincarnations but we don't remember how we get to the point we are now at. and what happend to that guy in one of our previous lives. what happend to all the memories, emotions experience he had? it's simpli gone! for you to remember your passed lives you should master some psychic tricks or go to one. and again you hear from ancient texts and new age guys "oh, it doesn't matter who you were in your passed lives what matters is that you are here now and you should keep working on you soul "evolution"".

well let me tell you some "fairy tale".
let's immagine some ancient man in africa who suddenly (no matter how) found a big raw, dirty, cloudy diamond. well, he is primitive man he doesn't treat it like jewelry he doesn't even know what the jewelry means. but he noticed how solid this material is. so he decides to crack coconuts with is. so he does it throughout his all life. well eventually he dies. so that big diamond goes to someone else in the tribe. that guy figures out to mount it to a stick and cracks a rocks and bilds him self a house. so he dies too and again it goes to someone else. this next guy tries to sharpen it from one side to be able to carve stone or metal. it takes his all life to harp it just a little bit. lets suppose that few more guys after him workerd on that too. well they finaly sharpen it from one side and eventually made a good carving tool. now lets immagine guy who comes after them all and gets the diamond. well he's not into carving but he notices that well sharpened one side of it and how shiny it is. so he desides to clean it all up. lets suppose he and few his successors managed to clean it up completely. so next guy gets clean, shiny and to some degree shapless diamond. so he desides to make a jewelry from it. so he begins and those after him contunues........(well that's endless story) so the story goes on. and what we have at the end as a result. we get this thing - diamond. well it is beautiful, shiny and perfectly shaped. it has evolved throught the centuries. it is perfect in a sence. it is valued and treated respectively. it goes on and is getting only better and better.

so let's look at those guys who worked on this perfection. they all dead and no one remembers them. thair memory, personality, feelings and identity are completely gone. the only records of them are those attached to the diamond in a form of a book that tells the story of its development its hystory. and every next guy can look up this book and say "oh honey that diamond was ones owned and managed by some guy called alfred". but alfred is long time gone without the trace. diamond was affected by alfred bu it is not alfred it self it has no memory and feelings it self. it's just and object affected by those who possessed it back in the day.

now let's look at those guys who claim they once sold their souls. they still are who they were before (to some degree). thay still have memory, feelings, they alive, they think and so on.

maybe "god" and "devil" are those guys who love diamonds? do they care about "manufacturer" or they only interested in the final product?
are those guys like john lear right about "soul harvesting"?
or guys like david wilcok is more closer to the truth?

can someone elaborate on the subject? maybe some references on some sources or scholars to clarify all that stuff?

ps
i'm a bit in a hurry so i dont have lots of time to put above in more sophisticated manner. sorry. but the core is there anyway.
alse sorry for my english.
and thanks in advance.

Hello Philosopher,

What is the soul? I don’t have a theological dictionary to read how it defines a soul, but my Webster dictionary defines a soul as: that belonging to the sea, an entity which is regarded as being immortal, or the spiritual part of the person, though having no physical or material part of the person, the moral or emotional nature of a human being, spiritual of emotional warmth, force, vital, or essential parts, the person who leads, a central figure, spirit of a dead person, strong expression.

It is my opinion that no human has the definitive answer as to what a soul is, or even if there objectively is a soul or not. Humans have beliefs systems, which lead them down a path on what feels right to them on how they wish the soul to be defined.

As talented and gifted as Edgar Cayce was, and as much of a metaphysical scholar Davis Wilcok, may, or may not be, they spoke, and wrote their thoughts through the instrument of a human body, and mind. We all have the same equipment, although we all seem to use the equipment in different ways.

I do not believe in the “God” of the Bible. I believe that the bible is great literature to how some humans thought in previous eras. I think of it as potential historic, sociological, and mythological references to human thinking, and knowledge from ancient days. Perhaps there are some truths in it; perhaps there is some wisdom in it. Perhaps there is a lot of subjective perceptive, and even disinformation, or much misunderstanding in it. But I do think, it is an excellent study to weigh in as another piece of the puzzle as to the origin of humans, and who we are, but just one small piece. After all it was just written by other humans, with biased perspectives, often just repeating what they heard or were told, just like humans today do.

I don’t know what a soul is. I can give you a lot of information on what some people claim the soul to be. But it is all just their opinion, and not one I found can state objectively to know what a soul is. It is all just their opinion, based on conclusions from their personal experiences, what they have read, biased perspectives, belief systems, and what others have said.

I personally view the soul as simply a different state of matter that perhaps many humans and scientists have not yet discovered objectively. Like water changing into solid ice, or vaporsess steam, the soul is part of the body that changes density as the physical body, and mind changes both while, what we term is alive or dead.

I believe I have always existed in different forms of density: magnetically, electrically, chemically etc. And that is how I choose to define what my soul is. My soul is just immortal me in different forms. But in truth, I don’t know that for sure, it is just my working theory. And it is one that I feel more comfortable with than the working theory of a god giving me salvation, or an alien harvesting my energetic essence as I switch states of consciousness from my body dying.

I don’t think anyone knows for sure what a soul is. I believe it is good to read and listen to other people’s opinions are, and respectfully debate working theories; but the bottom line, no matter what human we are referencing for a definition, it is only their working theory, or what comforts them. The more one exercises one’s own mind, and thinking muscle, the closer that person will come to the truth.

Sincerely,

Mr. Davis

PS. Throughout history there have been humans who have taken what they believed spirituality to be, and have taken that belief and tried to “improve” culture and society to “their standards”; much like Hitler did as he decided what humans were worthy and which ones were not. We will find that same emotional sickness in other historic figures such as in Mao Tse-tung, Pol Pot etc. But we also find it within many individuals over the centuries as well as in 2012; especially those who claim their god is the best god. Is religion healthy, since so many religions are so damming of others? And is this new era of new age spirituality any different that the older more traditional religions? What is a soul? Perhaps the healthiest definition comes from within, for your own personal use.

another bob
12th January 2012, 21:34
Hi badbob You say "the human body is a separate entity with its own personality and can live without an indwelling principle". Under what conditions would it care to be in touch with its own soul or group soul. If it was thinking with the heart, could it achieve this without soul contact.

Greetings, Friend!

I'm not badbob (well, my dog may disagree when I'm late with his dinner). I tried to sign up as Bob, which is my given name, but there already was a Bob registered, so I am another bob. Anyway, to your inquiry, I would offer that the human body-mind organism is not at all interested in "getting in touch with the soul", since an immaterial phantasm is not perceived to be a factor in its survival pursuits.

:yo:

bearcow
13th January 2012, 00:52
it can be said that there is a fight going on in everyone between the desires of the material nature and the wishes of the spirit. the prize the opposing forces fight for is your soul (astral body)

within your astral body there is something called the corporal soul, it also known as the po in taoist terminology. it rises forth from the Anima mundi of the earths primal astral matter and fuels the thirst for life, regulating all instinctive needs that lie below the threshold of waking awareness. ie desire for sex, breathing, hunger, etc. an addictive person has let his/her corporal soul become dominant, and it compels the waking personality to do things against their better judgement. This aspect of the individual dies off shortly after death unless some form of preservation is employed. Mummification processes used in ancient egypt were designed to keep the corporal soul alive as long as possible for mostly altruistic reasons. also the old tales of vampires and ghouls fall into the class of beings who were using unruly methods to keep the corporal soul alive against the natural order of things. In short the greater the strength of the corporal soul within the individuals astral being, the more materialistic and less spiritual they will be. the quality of astral substance that makes up your soul is the thing that determines your destiny and karma, in this life and the next.

if your lower desires dominate your perspective on life, you are in fact a lost soul.

In the end it all comes down to character

another bob
13th January 2012, 01:07
if your lower desires dominate your perspective on life, you are in fact a lost soul.

In the end it all comes down to character


What you say is wise and true, yet in the end, not a single being shall be lost.

:yo:

philosopher
13th January 2012, 11:42
it can be said that there is a fight going on in everyone between the desires of the material nature and the wishes of the spirit. the prize the opposing forces fight for is your soul (astral body)

within your astral body there is something called the corporal soul, it also known as the po in taoist terminology. it rises forth from the Anima mundi of the earths primal astral matter and fuels the thirst for life, regulating all instinctive needs that lie below the threshold of waking awareness. ie desire for sex, breathing, hunger, etc. an addictive person has let his/her corporal soul become dominant, and it compels the waking personality to do things against their better judgement. This aspect of the individual dies off shortly after death unless some form of preservation is employed. Mummification processes used in ancient egypt were designed to keep the corporal soul alive as long as possible for mostly altruistic reasons. also the old tales of vampires and ghouls fall into the class of beings who were using unruly methods to keep the corporal soul alive against the natural order of things. In short the greater the strength of the corporal soul within the individuals astral being, the more materialistic and less spiritual they will be. the quality of astral substance that makes up your soul is the thing that determines your destiny and karma, in this life and the next.

if your lower desires dominate your perspective on life, you are in fact a lost soul.

In the end it all comes down to character

well frankly speaking this explanation makes more sense to me.
thanks