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ROMANWKT
21st January 2012, 14:30
SYSTEM MECHANICS OF HUMAN POTENTIAL


This is inspired by the BILL WOOD interview with Kerry Cassidy.

Starting from 1hr 43 min some very important revelation were spoken about that involves all of us, as humanity, and as a consensus.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=nkIIBnIuXHM

It has renewed my vigour to put forward before you all, part 1 and part 2 of “its all nonsense” again.

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?15834-Its-all-nonsense-part-1

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?32896-MANIFESTING-IN-THE-MATRIX-its-all-nonsense-part-2

I would like to explain why?

My interest were twicked when he mentioned the power of belief that we all have a potential to explore and apply.

He mentioned the placebo effect of having a item implanted that gave them the belief that made them actually perform these abilities that they were seeking, and the removal of these implants that seemed to remove that belief.

Here are two sentences, “Belief in possibilities” and “Belief in the ability”.

My implant to you who have read part 1 and part 2 was the release method, only one person afterwards mentioned the placebo.

That was the reason that it was removed when I removed myself, most of you did not get it, because for all the writing, you have not understood the mechanics.

We hopefully shall expand on the mechanics and have a deeper understanding of how we regulate ourselves with belief in absolute dis-info.

First I would like you to read these very important letters sent to me by our ANOTHER BOB here in Avalon. I hope you don’t mind me bringing it to another thread Bob, but this is important understanding and knowledge.
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Posted by ROMANWKT (here (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?p=407213#post407213)):






... it all could be just a big con,,,,what do you think
Laughing now, my Friend!

As you yourself have written, it is "all nonsense". Just so, having discarded everything that is nonsense, what remains?

Of course, if you are honest, and have indeed discarded all nonsense, then you can only say, "I don't know".

Any other answer, when inspected, is nonsense, a hallucination, since whatever appears in consciousness is just that.

Of course, if you were to say otherwise, you wouldn't be able to keep a straight face for long, given that it really is all nonsense, and so we are back to "I don't know".

Now, what's really interesting, is that if you were to just stay with that sense of not knowing, rather than falling victim over and over again to the fraud of pretending to be a knower, then something can happen that is totally beyond your facade of knowing, something quite exceptional.

What that is, you alone will find out, because it comes just for you, if you sincerely persist in your not-knowing to the point of availability.

When you become truly available, a lot can happen, and fast -- even in the blink of an eye!
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Thank you Bob for your comment and direction, Firstly I have always stated with all people that I had contact with and also in part 2 of its all nonsense that these are the things that I have LEARNT AND READ and offer this information for people to do as they wish with it, Psychology is my approach to this information, as I have placed myself in the middle looking both ways, trying very hard to to explain the mechanics of spiritualism and materialism, I have always studied the mechanics of our existence, but have not committed myself to any order or doctrine as both are and can be created by the mechanics of the mind, therefore is it real, is it reality, is it an illusion, any 3 can come to be a some sort of belief system that humanity is plagued with. I could literally write and book about this and get absolutely nowhere. I have been able to marry the two end of our reality in my mind as to the full potential of our human origin, which to me means that while you are here expand yourself to full potential through understanding of the mechanics of spiritual and material, hence this being said in this thread because Bill Wood stated that as a fact and has himself moved on further that that of his military training.

All Is hypothetical until proven otherwise. there are a few people that are as gifted as yourself here in Avalon, and have and should put their understanding fully on the table, there are many here that will hear and many that wont, though our perspective is our own, and only our own, the mechanics are the same once understood.

Warmest wishes to you Bob as ever

Posted by another bob (here (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?38797--New---Project-Camelot-Bill-Wood-Above-Beyond-Project-Looking-Glass&p=407487&viewfull=1#post407487))



Hello my Good Friend, and Thank You for your comments!
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I appreciate what you are getting at, and I am just exploring another view with you, which is complementary, but which speaks more directly to our immediate situation, rather than dwelling so much on speculative issues. In my research today, I was able to find a series of letters written by a Korean Zen Master to a student, delving into the mind of "not knowing" that I referenced earlier. It speaks directly to my point. Here it is for your review:


Dear Patricia,

Thank you for your letter. How are you?

You said in your letter that you have read many books about Zen. That’s good, but if you are thinking, you can’t understand Zen. Anything that can be written, anything that can be said – all this is thinking. If you are thinking, all Zen books, all Buddhist sutras, and all Bibles are demons’ words. But if you read with a mind that has cut off all thinking, then Zen books, sutras, and Bibles are all the truth. So is the barking of a dog or the crowing of a rooster. All things are teaching you at every moment, and these sounds are even better teaching than Zen books. So Zen is keeping the mind which is before thinking. Sciences and academic studies are after thinking. We must return to before thinking. Then we will attain our true self.

You said in your letter that your practice has been counting exhalations to ten. This method is not good, not bad. It is possible to practice in this way when you are sitting. But when you are driving, when you are talking, when you are watching television, when you are playing tennis, how is it possible to count your breaths then? Sitting is only a small part of practicing Zen. The true meaning of sitting Zen is to cut off all thinking and keep not-moving mind. So I ask you: what are you? You don’t know; there is only “I don’t know.” Always keep this don’t know mind. When this don’t know mind becomes clear, then you will understand. So if you keep it when you are talking, this is talking Zen. If you keep it when you are watching television, this is television Zen. You must keep don’t know mind always and everywhere. This is the true practice of Zen.


The Great Way is not difficult
if you don’t make distinctions.
Only throw away likes and dislikes
and everything will be perfectly clear.

So throw away all opinions, all likes and dislikes, and only keep the mind that doesn’t know. This is very important. Don’t know mind is the mind that cuts off all thinking. When all thinking has been cut off, you become empty mind. This is before thinking. Your before thinking mind, my before thinking mind, all people’s before thinking minds are the same. This is your substance. Your substance, my substance, and the substance of the whole universe become one. So the tree, the mountain, the cloud and you become one. Then I ask you: Are the mountain and you the same or different? If you say “the same,” I will hit you thirty times. If you say “different,” I will still hit you thirty times. Why?

The mind that becomes one with the universe is before thinking. Before thinking there are no words. “Same” and “different” are opposite words; they are from the mind that separates all things. That is why I will hit you if you say either one. So what would be a good answer? If you don’t understand, only keep don’t know mind for a while, and you will soon have a good answer. If you do, please send it to me.

You asked why I use words to teach, if understanding through words is impossible. Words are not necessary. But they are very necessary. If you are attached to words, you cannot return to your true self. If you are not attached to words, soon you will attain enlightenment. So if you are thinking, words are very bad. But if you are not thinking, all words and all things that you can see or hear or smell or taste or touch will help you. So it is very important for you to cut off your thinking and your attachments to words.

Here is a poem for you:


Buddha said all things have Buddha-nature.
Joju said the dog has no Buddha-nature.
Which one is correct?
If you open your mouth, you fall into hell.
Why?
KATZ!!!
Clouds float up to the sky;
rainfalls down to the ground.

Sincerely yours,

Seung Sahn

_______________

Dear Patricia,

Thank you for your letter. You say that keeping don’t know mind is difficult. If you examine your thinking mind, then it is difficult. You mustn’t examine your thinking mind. Thinking is okay; don’t worry about it. If you are not upset by your thinking, then it is not difficult to keep don’t know mind. At first you will be able to keep it only for a short time. But if you practice with sincerity, it will keep growing by itself.

Your mind is like the sea. When the wind comes, there are very big waves. When the wind dies down, the waves become smaller and smaller, until finally the wind disappears altogether and the sea is like a clear mirror. Then mountains, trees and all things are reflected on the surface of the sea. There are many thought-waves in your mind. But if you continue to practice don’t know mind, this thinking will become gradually smaller, until finally your mind will always be clear. When the mind becomes clear, it is like a mirror: red comes and the mirror is red; yellow comes and the mirror is yellow; a mountain comes and the mirror is a mountain. Your mind is the mountain; the mountain is your mind. They are not two. So it is very important not to be attached either to thinking or to not thinking. You mustn’t be upset by anything that goes on in your mind. Only don’t worry and keep don’t know mind.

You say that in the beginning you were enthusiastic and now you are discouraged. Both extremes are no good. It is like a guitar string; if you make it too tight, it will be out of tune and will soon snap; if you make it too loose, it will still be out of tune and will not play. You must make it just right. Too enthusiastic is no good, too discouraged is also no good. Zen mind is everyday mind. You must keep this mind during every action, eating, talking, playing tennis, watching television, always keep don’t know mind. What is most important is how you keep your mind at this very moment. “Just now mind.” If you have free time, it is good to sit. If you don’t have free time, then just do action Zen.

But be very careful about wanting enlightenment. This is a bad Zen sickness. When you keep a clear mind, the whole universe is you, you are the universe. So you have already attained enlightenment. Wanting enlightenment is only thinking. It is something extra, like painting legs on the picture of a snake. Already the snake is complete as it is. Already the truth is right before your eyes.

It is very true that contact with other Zen students will help your practice. Together action is very important for Zen students. Bowing together, chanting together, sitting together, eating together, this means that your own situation, your condition, and your opinions can disappear much more easily. Zen work is becoming empty mind. Becoming empty mind means having all my opinions fall away. Then you will experience true emptiness. When you experience true emptiness, you will attain your true situation, your true condition, and your true opinions. I hope that you will come often to the Zen Center, do hard training, soon attain enlightenment, and save all people from suffering.

Sincerely yours,

Seung Sahn
________________

Dear Patricia,

Thank you for your letter. You said that I have helped your practice. This is very good. Zen practice is of the greatest importance. You must decide to practice and very strongly keep this decision. This requires great faith, great courage, and great questioning.

What is great faith? Great faith means that at all times you keep the mind which decided to practice no matter what. It is like a hen sitting on her eggs. She sits on them constantly, caring for them and giving them warmth, so that they will hatch. If she becomes careless or negligent the eggs will not hatch and will not become chicks. So Zen mind means always and everywhere believing in myself. I vow to become Buddha and save all people.

Next, what is great courage? This means bringing all your energy to one point. It is like a cat hunting a mouse. The mouse has retreated into its hole, but the cat waits outside the hole for hours on end without the slightest movement. It is totally concentrated on the mouse hole. This is Zen mind cutting off all thinking and directing all your energy to one point.

Next, great questioning. This is like a child who thinks only of its mother, or a man dying of thirst who thinks only of water. It is called one mind. If you question with great sincerity, there will only be don’t know mind.

If you keep these three, great faith, great courage, and great questioning, you will soon attain enlightenment. You said in your letter that practice is difficult. This is thinking. Zen is not difficult. If you say it is difficult, that means you have been examining yourself, examining your situation, your condition, your opinions. So you say Zen is difficult. And it is not easy. The truth is only like this. Don’t make difficult, don’t make easy. Just practice.

You said that the Zen books which you read shattered your beliefs. That’s very good. But shattered is not shattered. Before, your view was a deluded view. Now it is a correct view. What you believed before was like wanting to hold the rainbow. But the rainbow soon disappears. It never really existed. All things are like this. Before, you believed that all things existed. But now you understand that all things are emptiness. Even so, you must take one step further. Believing or not believing, shattered or not shattered, this is still the area of opposites. You must throw all these opposites away. Then the truth will be only like this. You said that everything was shattered. But this “shattered” is still an attachment to name and form. Originally, there is only emptiness. There is neither shattered nor not shattered. This is the area of the absolute. The absolute is true emptiness. True emptiness is before thinking. Before thinking is like this. Form is form, emptiness is emptiness. So your don’t know mind is true emptiness, is before thinking, is the absolute, is your true self.

The names are all different, but they are all names for clear mind. Originally clear mind has no name and no form. There are no words for it. So if you open your mouth, you are wrong. This is why whenever Zen Master Lin-chi was asked a question, he only shouted, “KATZ!” Dok Sahn would answer only by hitting the questioner. Kuji would just hold up one finger. If you are not attached to KATZ or HIT or one finger, then you will understand that the meaning behind these actions is clear mind. The different actions are just different styles of pointing to clear mind. It is impossible to explain clear mind in words, so the Zen Masters used shouting and hitting and holding up one finger to explain. You must put it down! KATZ is only KATZ, HIT is only HIT, one finger is only one finger. You must understand this. When you say, “I know I don’t know,” this is no good. Don’t examine your don’t know mind.

Life is Zen. But some people say that life is suffering. How are these different? If you make “my life is Zen,” then your life becomes Zen. If somebody else makes “my life is suffering,” then that person’s life becomes suffering. So it all depends on how you are keeping your mind just now, at this very moment! This just-now mind continues and becomes your life, as one point continues and becomes a straight line.

You like Zen, so your life has become Zen. Now you think that the world is wonderful. Your mind is wonderful, so the whole world is wonderful. If you attain enlightenment, you will understand that all people are suffering greatly, so your mind also will be suffering. This is big suffering. So you must enter the great bodhisattva way and save all people from their suffering. I hope that you only keep don’t know mind, always and everywhere. Then you will soon attain enlightenment and save all beings.

Here is a question for you: Somebody once asked the great Zen Master Dong Sahn, “What is Buddha?” Dong Sahn answered, “Three pounds of flax.” What does this mean?

I will wait for a good answer.

Sincerely yours,

Seung Sahn

More to come soon
roman

seko
21st January 2012, 16:16
Hi Romanwkt, nice thread like.. it's all nonsense 1 and 2.

My understanding to this matter is just to be neutral and stop judging about what is good or bad, pretty or ugly etc etc.

We should focus on our breathing instead of using our brain when we do something.

Studying Karate when I was a kid, I was told to focus on my breathing a lot, now I understand why they told me that.

Tony
21st January 2012, 16:59
Hello Roman,
This is a lot to take in.
I'll get back to you!

thanks regards,
Tony

another bob
21st January 2012, 18:56
My Good Friend,

Perhaps this little series will add some further substance to the consideration:


ISLXhPPS-JQ



fiR2BDyoVRQ


x2_TEDLv5Lk


:yo:

ROMANWKT
22nd January 2012, 19:10
The letters and the following videos perfectly states the difference between mind and Being/The Absolute/Source.

It perfectly states what was read in part 1, as mind being the recorder and creator in the matrix, period, it perfectly states that the mind has no answers, other then the things that you have put in, it clearly states that seeking with mind is like banging your head against the wall for it can never give you the answer that you seek unless you put it in there, and it will only tell you what you want to know with the combination of all your recordings, which is not the truth, only a combination of what’s in your recorder.

We shall be exploring the spectrum of the two opposites which work in unison as one.

It clearly states that mind has to stop to get the answer from The Absolute. One has to let the bubbling up of the real answer that you seek to come up from within, it will come, keep mind out of the equation, as stated in the end of part 2. We have all heard the saying “let go and let god”, It means exactly that, there are people who remove mind and move in life with all the things that they require without effort, as their being knows exactly what they require to sustain themselves here in this realm, that is also why you don’t always get what you want, but you get what you need.

We must therefore be able to distinguish the difference between the spiritual, mental, and material, as we shall later cover the human potential latent within us.

Its is said that all is perfect in Nature or the Matrix, no, it is not, but its always striving and moving towards perfection, its incomplete because we are incomplete, as the matrix is the result of all our incomplete use of our creative functions without understanding, moving on to complete as we complete ourselves.

A mind without truth of what is, will create that which is not truth. Take a good look around the world, all believing in their truth. As was said before, anything works here, the good the bad and the ugly, it all works here. Many will say you’re judging creation, I can only say that I can distinguish the difference rightly or wrongly by saying, I don’t judge creation, only the results, because in the end humanity will pay for having created the wrong results.

roman

To be continued

OK rip it apart, I have no problem with that and have a good think about mind.

another bob
22nd January 2012, 21:16
Good Day, my Friend, and happy to accompany you in your reflection on these themes!

Perhaps we can aproach the matter most efficiently by considering that we are really talking about two related components. The first is the realization of, or awakening to, our true nature and immortal identity, followed in turn by the actualization of that realization, its skillful embodiment in life and relationship.

There's an old Zen tale about Hotei, the "Laughing Buddha", that illuminates this realization/actualization dynamic very well. Hotei lived in the T'ang dynasty. He had no desire to call himself a Zen master or to gather many disciples around him. Instead he walked the streets with a big sack into which he would put gifts of candy, fruit, or doughnuts. These he would give to children who gathered around him in play. He established a kindergarten of the streets.
Once another Zen master happened along and inquired: "What is the significance of Zen?"
Hotei immediately plopped his sack down on the ground in silent answer.
"Then," asked the other, "what is the actualization of Zen?"
At once Hotei swung the sack over his shoulder and continued on his way.

So, what must first happen in our life before realization can occur? Well, since we have already introduced Adyashanti here earlier, and since his is as clear as any contemporary voice on the subject, I'll continue with a representative quote of his addressing that. The realization of truth begins when we let go of our preconceptions and self-images -- when we stop and let everything end.

"There is a great momentum of suffering and confusion that every spiritual seeker encounters. It is the momentum of ignorance which manifests as the experience of conflict and confusion and which causes suffering. In order to discover the perspective of liberation, which alone transcends this entire movement of ignorance and suffering, one needs to let everything end. "Letting everything end" means to stand in the moment completely naked of attachment to any and all ideas, concepts, hopes, preferences, and experiences. Simply put, it means to stop strategizing, controlling, manipulating, and running away from yourself--and to simply be. Finally you must let everything end and be still.
In letting everything end, all seeking and striving stops. All effort to be someone or to find some extraordinary state of being ceases. This ceasing is essential. It is true spiritual maturity. By ceasing to follow the mind's tendency to always want more, different, or better, one encounters the opportunity to be still. In being still, a perspective is revealed which is free from all ignorance and bondage to suffering. From that perspective, eternal Self is realized. The eternal Self, the Seer, is recognized to be one's true nature, one's very own Self.
This is an invitation to let all seeking end, all striving end, all efforting end, all past identity end, all hopes end, and to discover That which has no beginning or end. This is an invitation to discover the eternal, unborn, undying Truth of being. The Truth of your being, your own Self. Let the entire movement of becoming end, and discover That which has always been present at the core of your being."

Now, having awoken to our true condition and identity, we will likely notice that somewhat of a gap pertains between what we have understood, and the way we still tend to behave, ruled as we are by habit patterns long conditioned into the personality. Consequently, we discover that we must make some effort to align our behavior to what's real and true. For most of us, if not all, this actualization of awakened recognition involves what Buddhists call "cultivation", and which Adyashanti calls "Embodiment". It's learning how to "walk the walk", and that's where unconditional love and true spontaneity are born and thrive. Moreover, we don't have to wait for some grand insight to begin behaving. For example, we can notice where greed, judgment, envy, anger, and hatred subtly infect our attitudes. It doesn't have to be a big deal -- we just have to see that whatever we cling to ultimately holds us back from our native freedom, and in such seeing, we can let all that go, replaced instead by the dawning recognition and remembrance of what we truly are, and what our relationship to everything really involves.


:yo:

ROMANWKT
22nd January 2012, 23:58
Well that's a WOW Bob

I follow you loud a clear, a wonderful way you express your self with words and content, I already feel that I want to abandon this nonsense here, but we shall see as we move on. thank you for that Bob it will make sense to everyone that reads it, regards as always.

Now this video was shown before and I find it an eye opener for a lot of skeptics, hope you all will enjoy it again with big questions.


7MsKnJKq9kM

ROMANWKT
23rd January 2012, 16:58
Well thank you all very much for all your questions----NOT.

Good, you’re all smarter than I thought you were, (hehe just kidding)

I have always approached the spiritual through psychology, and the manipulation of the material realm as being a illusion, a delusional use of mind and belief to create a psychologically based material phenomena.

The Release Method was offered to you as a psychological tool to remove the garbage of ideology, doctrines, and emotional imbalances within ones body and psyche. At seeing the mind as a recorder and a creator of ones belief is an important understanding.

If you accept the conclusion of the brain scientist at face value and you believe her as I do after seeing the film above, there was shown a brain in her hand that split apart with a gaping hole in possible misunderstanding of the spiritual and the material phenomena.

Nirvana was the word she used as only her right half of her brain was mostly in control at the time she was having a stroke, and of not being to see the body or arm as being separate from her surrounding, she could not distinguish where her arm started or where it ended, she felt as being part of all that is,and the feeling were so good, she was obviously in rapture within herself.

She felt herself trying to squeeze and compress herself to a small stature to fit into her body, she felt the singularity of her left analytical side of her brain feeling and declaring that “I am”, she now felt alone, separate from all that is.

Are there any bells ringing in ones head about the whole experience that this lady had???

Two half of the brain talking to each other, one of one type of disposition, the other of another type of disposition?? couldn’t we say that one is leaning towards the spiritual, and the other towards the material??

What we have to distinguish here, is it the mind or the brain??

Come on you clever sausages, what do you think??

roman

to be continued

Tony
23rd January 2012, 17:18
Right brain has its function, the left brain has its function, to co-ordinate the body.
The mind has its function, and the contents of the mind has its function, to co-ordinate thinking.
(The mind is consciousness, the thoughts are the contents.)
So mind and body work nicely together.

This is the human usual condition,a human functioning as a human animal.

The wonder of humans is that we can look into consciousness, and find that
we are not this human animal...but something far greater.

The powers that think they own us, see us as animals. Realising that we are not
animals will set us free.....and piss our owners off no end!!!!

CD7
23rd January 2012, 17:19
Nice Post! Amazing how the interview with Kerry winded its way into these territories!


Here is a question for you: Somebody once asked the great Zen Master Dong Sahn, “What is Buddha?” Dong Sahn answered, “Three pounds of flax.” What does this mean? RELEASE!!!!! AWWWwwwwwwwww

another bob
23rd January 2012, 17:33
Now this video was shown before and I find it an eye opener



A wonderful video, Thanks for sharing! Jill does a great job of describing our dual nature -- human and divine -- using the analogy of left and right brain hemispheres. Remember, nondual does not mean not dual.

The Christian church has perpetrated a monstrous lie for centuries, claiming that only the fictional character named Jesus of Nazareth was endowed with both human and divine attributes. This utterly disempowering message has been the source of endless confusion and conflict (internal and external). An excellent new book on the subject is Nanci Danison's BACKWARDS Beliefs: Revealing Eternal Truths Hidden in Religions.

Furthermore, if we were to gain a vantage point a few levels higher in awareness, we would come to realize that we are actually neither human nor divine -- we are ultimately prior to the play of consciousness itself. What we truly are is beyond both perception and conception, although the term "awareness" points to our actual identity.

You are awareness. Awareness is another name for you. Since you are awareness there is no need to attain or cultivate it. All that you have to do is to give up being aware of other things, that is of the not-self. If one gives up being aware of them then pure awareness alone remains, and that is the Self.

~Ramana Maharshi


Thanks for your continued passion of exploration, Brother!

:yo:

another bob
23rd January 2012, 17:40
Nice Post! Amazing how the interview with Kerry winded its way into these territories!


Here is a question for you: Somebody once asked the great Zen Master Dong Sahn, “What is Buddha?” Dong Sahn answered, “Three pounds of flax.” What does this mean? RELEASE!!!!! AWWWwwwwwwwww

Another master answered, "a dried sh**t stick!". The point being, true realization entails the recognition that there is no ultimate difference between the most perfect enlightenment and the shadow of a turd on the street. This is difficult. As Meister Eckhart notes, "whoever understands this, has been preached to enough."

:yo:

Jenci
23rd January 2012, 18:26
She felt herself trying to squeeze and compress herself to a small stature to fit into her body, she felt the singularity of her left analytical side of her brain feeling and declaring that “I am”, she now felt alone, separate from all that is.

Are there any bells ringing in ones head about the whole experience that this lady had???

Two half of the brain talking to each other, one of one type of disposition, the other of another type of disposition?? couldn’t we say that one is leaning towards the spiritual, and the other towards the material??

What we have to distinguish here, is it the mind or the brain??

Come on you clever sausages, what do you think??

roman



I say neither. What was Conscious was neither brain nor mind and not located in the head either.

Jeanette

Jenci
23rd January 2012, 18:34
. Consequently, we discover that we must make some effort to align our behavior to what's real and true. For most of us, if not all, this actualization of awakened recognition involves what Buddhists call "cultivation", and which Adyashanti calls "Embodiment". It's learning how to "walk the walk", and that's where unconditional love and true spontaneity are born and thrive.

I've also seen Adyashanti describe it as the "spritual rubber hitting the road".

I like that phrase. :)
Jeanette

ROMANWKT
23rd January 2012, 20:30
Great contribution Tony and Bob you make more sense that I am at the moment, thank you both very much. and Jenci ( I say neither. What was Conscious was neither brain nor mind and not located in the head either.) are you saying that it was consciousness so it was neither? thank you again all. And christinedream7, sorry but you have to read all to understand.

Anyway, here is another video that probably most had seen before, I remember it a couple of years back and always thought how interesting the explanation was concerning perception, Its a contribution by the ISLAM sect explaining our perception of creation.

AqnEGu8VF8Y

Lets talk about it

roman

Jenci
23rd January 2012, 20:46
What was Conscious was neither brain nor mind and not located in the head either.)[/I] are you saying that it was consciousness so it was neither? thank you again all.

I am guessing yes, Roman, that it was Consciousness.

Consciousness/Awareness is not limited to the mind or brain, either left or right or top or bottom. If it is, then I am in trouble when this body/brain/mind dies ;)

When our Consciousness/Awareness expands we realise that it is not limited to us and our body.... but it's everywhere.

I think the it is the "mind" which tries to place an explanation of this into left brain right brain because "mind" doesn't understand or see the bigger picture. That's just my guess. I could be wrong. Certainly with me "mind" took a very long time to get this, it was the last to learn and this was after many experinces of being Consciousness/Awareness.

Jeanette

conk
23rd January 2012, 20:55
Wonderful thread.

Just as one thinks it's all figured out, along comes another twist. A constant theme is embracing love. Love yourself. Love your neighbor. Love your enemy. Well then, love is the answer? No, another says, love is more duality. There must be a lover and a beloved. Now we must find the "other" kind of love. Are we destined to be confused?

another bob
23rd January 2012, 21:37
Wonderful thread.

Just as one thinks it's all figured out, along comes another twist. A constant theme is embracing love. Love yourself. Love your neighbor. Love your enemy. Well then, love is the answer? No, another says, love is more duality. There must be a lover and a beloved. Now we must find the "other" kind of love. Are we destined to be confused?

No, Friend -- only as long as we cling to concepts, beliefs, expectations, and provisional self-images, rather than just once and for all letting Love take us, strip us of all armor and facade (like the conceit of being a knower, separate and apart), revealing the absolute purity and innocence of this infinite dream, of which we have never been anything other than the very Source.

:yo:

Sebastion
23rd January 2012, 23:28
Methinks another thing that the good doctor is pointing to without ever mentioning it, or more likely unaware of, is that the next step beyond it is an entrance to a freedom of being, that is so delicious and profoundly complete that there are no words to describe it in any language. I had the opportunity to experience it once and let it pass much to my chagrin. I am speaking to the point she made about not being able to distinguish between her arm and the wall-ponder on that concept and what the next step might be beyond that!

another bob
24th January 2012, 00:07
I had the opportunity to experience it once and let it pass much to my chagrin.

Good thing we're given lots of chances -- every moment is an opportunity, if we're available!

:yo:

Sebastion
24th January 2012, 04:20
Well Anotherbob I think that freedom of which I speak would be the freedom to wander and explore all the universes of the One! I knew in that moment, almost instinctively, that if I had chosen to enter into that, there was no way I would ever have re-entered the confinement of a physical body ever again. I do not know what precipitated the incident to start with as it seemed I was offered it and then the offer was rescinded. I wish I could say more but there is no more to say about it!

another bob
24th January 2012, 05:29
Well Anotherbob I think that freedom of which I speak would be the freedom to wander and explore all the universes of the One! I knew in that moment, almost instinctively, that if I had chosen to enter into that, there was no way I would ever have re-entered the confinement of a physical body ever again. I do not know what precipitated the incident to start with as it seemed I was offered it and then the offer was rescinded. I wish I could say more but there is no more to say about it!


Greetings, Friend!

Well, how about the possibility that what we are in fact doing right now is exploring all the universes of the One, and included in that exploration is the physical dimension? Really, if we're talking about "all the universes", then the objective material one is right up there on the check-list of realms to explore. It's just that 3-D is . . . well . . . 3-D, so we tend to move a bit slower here (what with time, gravity, and material stuff on the local itinerary).

So, what if the 'offer' was accepted and your wish granted -- and this is it! It was your free choice to be here, otherwise you'd be somewhere else at the moment. Moreover, we'll never be more free than we are right now -- we just might come to look at the whole matter differently, once any lingering resistence to "what is" drops away, and we're not so distracted by our wanting things to be other than they are. From there, one heartfelt motion of simple kindness and humility can pierce every dimension instantaneously!

In any case, it's all impermanent, transparent even, and paradoxically enough, fully appreciating the implications of that fact is where real freedom and true peace abides.


"Analysing the limits of yesterday and tomorrow, we see that time does not stay still for one moment but passes away continuously. An entire aeon and a single moment are identical when they are over."
~ Kyabje Dzogchen Pema Kalsang


:yo:

Ultima Thule
24th January 2012, 09:28
Very good Roman!
And some very nice excerpts about Zen. What I found most striking was the revelation of enlightenment being not an end goal and once attained, for yours to keep, but instead being enlightened is being it in every now, but every next now you need to or better yet - have the possibility to attain it again. It is like those 3D-pictures that you have to look in a certain way to see them in the chaos, it is easy once you get it, but you can lose it just as easily. As I write this, I can say that for a moment a minute ago I was enlightened.
UT

Intranuclear
24th January 2012, 10:54
Thanks for the video!

What seems to be obvious at all times is that regardless of which brain is in focus, the connection to all is implied. The left brain serializes or objectifies it all but knowing full well that all is still connected but the wiring is questionable. The right brain ignores the wiring and removes all temporal information. Clearly both are useful to us and through us for those who consider our overlords.

I don't find it necessary to separate illusion from reality as both are consequential. Meaning that illusion is at least a very useful way of creating an experimental reality which we can then manifest into "reality" by spreading it amongst ourselves as a good idea. So, what is real and what is not?

I see people arguing as to what to make "real", or where to place ones conscious energy (while residing in a body with two brains). Someday, we might create an artificial Corpus Callosum and connect ourselves and create a giant brain, where we become one again. While that will allow mankind to make even more cooler toys, it will also allow mankind to re-experience loneliness, for after all, when we are one, we are alone. Of course, we will then connect ourselves to other forms of life, and the process goes on ad infinitum... maybe?...

Cheers all and thanks to all for their views!

lfGwsAdS9Dc

TraineeHuman
24th January 2012, 11:09
Nirvana was the word she used as only her right half of her brain was mostly in control at the time she was having a stroke, and of not being to see the body or arm as being separate from her surrounding, she could not distinguish where her arm started or where it ended, she felt as being part of all that is,and the feeling were so good, she was obviously in rapture within herself.

She ... felt the singularity of her left analytical side of her brain feeling and declaring that “I am”, she now felt alone, separate from all that is.

Are there any bells ringing in ones head about the whole experience that this lady had???

Two half of the brain talking to each other, one of one type of disposition, the other of another type of disposition?? couldn’t we say that one is leaning towards the spiritual, and the other towards the material??

What we have to distinguish here, is it the mind or the brain??


Roman, are you suggesting that the mind/ the consciousness is some kind of ghost in a machine? If so, can we ever accurately describe what this ghost really is, or what it is like? That's assuming that it even really exists at all. I would claim it doesn't exist at all -- unless the "ghost" is the universe (or the universe's mind/consciousness).

Nerge
24th January 2012, 11:33
Very interesting thread, I'll have to watch the vids when I'm able. :)

What I find interesting is if we are originally 'awareness' and at one with all that is, perhaps the point of narrowing our awareness to such a limited degree, here on earth, is of course for the experience of this limitation.

As wonderful as knowing everything and being everything may be, I do wonder if that would become tiresome (if even possible in that state) and somewhat limiting to understanding, so we limit our awareness to experience wonder and discovery again and the feeling we need to seek knowledge outside of ourselves.

With that being said, seeking our original state of 'all knowing' - wouldn't that end this so-called experience / game prematurely? But, perhaps we're at the end of this round of experience anyway and it's time to return to what we were for another 'game'? :)

Bit of a disjointed ramble there but something I've often pondered. :)

crested-duck
24th January 2012, 12:12
Another master answered, "a dried sh**t stick!". The point being, true realization entails the recognition that there is no ultimate difference between the most perfect enlightenment and the shadow of a turd on the street. This is difficult. As Meister Eckhart notes, "whoever understands this, has been preached to enough."

Would not the reason there is'nt any difference be they are both just perceptions-(but mind makes them appear differently&seperate)?? also-worked on releasing yesterday at 2 different times,but had hard time pictureing faces and afterward felt as if just going through motions. question- is the actual intent more important than being able to see faces in my mind, just as the intent was to release the emotions as well?

GaelVictor
24th January 2012, 14:37
Pinched this from the astral travel thread as it gives a perspective on the issues discussed here;
By blending analytical knowledge and intuitive insight, Bentov was the first to develop what is now widely accepted today as a holographic model of reality.

xVt1ErkLVMU

ROMANWKT
24th January 2012, 16:10
The last video I always thought was interesting in explaining the illusion of life, after showing you possibilities of incorrect perception, they decided that there was something outside of ourselves, creating all that is, and there is your dis-info loud and clear, they cut out the last bit that you did not see, and all was according to Allah, as this was an Islamic production, and so people believing in all this content and the illusion was given to them from outside of themselves, which is nonsense.


Thank you everybody for comments they are invaluable, especially to you TRAINEE HUMAN in this episode, because you are the only who klicked to what I may be suggesting.

Yes of course its consciousness as all here know, as all here in this post understand that, but.

The fuel of all existence is consciousness, its the ether, the dark matter that’s predominant as all things, our universe, our world, our bodies. everything is of consciousness.

What tools would any living being need to harness and assimilate this thing called consciousness? It would need a brain and a mind, so it would need a brain to harness it and a mind to assimilate it.

Imagine a spectrum of two half of the brain, the right side harnessing all the way to the past of all creation right down to contracted fractals of the matrix, and imagine the left hand harnessing all the future expansion of the fractals of the matrix, and imagine the connection between the two half’s talking to each other, then that connection has to be a creation between the two half’s which we call our MIND, that assimilate the two half's for creation and recordings. When we die we leave the brain and mind, we only have consciousness. There again we could have mind that is assimilated by both half’s of the brain???

So what’s so special about spirituality that they have been banging our heads with it for thousands of years, and what wrong with materialism, is it the wrong direction, how about letting go and no participation, what do you actually achieve, and according to whom, or to completely immerse yourself in the material. Both seem to be extremes that are showing themselves to be unnecessary, the only thing that it shows is that we need to be in balance, and we need to know the spiritual and the material, and extremes of one or the other is not balance.

Knowing one compliments the other, you cant achieve one without the other, you are not without the other, to be, you have to use both, all stems from within, both stem from within, both are here, both are required to live.

what do you think
roman

to be continued
.

ROMANWKT
24th January 2012, 16:15
How about this Video that has caused a bit of a stir, based on the old gods and new tech understanding, see what you think of it, it been shown before, try it again.

http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-6226036544608625413&hl=en

regards
roman

another bob
24th January 2012, 19:50
So what’s so special about spirituality that they have been banging our heads with it for thousands of years, and what wrong with materialism, is it the wrong direction, how about letting go and no participation, what do you actually achieve, and according to whom, or to completely immerse yourself in the material. Both seem to be extremes that are showing themselves to be unnecessary, the only thing that it shows is that we need to be in balance, and we need to know the spiritual and the material, and extremes of one or the other is not balance.

Knowing one compliments the other, you cant achieve one without the other, you are not without the other, to be, you have to use both, all stems from within, both stem from within, both are here, both are required to live.


Greetings, Roman and All!

It occurs to me that this might be a good time to introduce what Buddhists call "The Two Truths Doctrine":


Clarifying the Two Truths

by Patrul Rinpoche

For those who wish to attain liberation, there is both (I) the teaching on what is to be realized and (II) the teaching on how to put this into practice.

I. The Teaching On What Is To Be Realized

In this, there are two topics: (1) the natural condition of all knowable phenomena in general and (2) the natural condition of one’s own mind.

(1) The Natural Condition of all Knowable Phenomena

This is also divided into two aspects: (i) the relative and (ii) the absolute.

(i) The Relative Aspect

Generally speaking, all appearances—from those of the lowest hell of Ultimate Torment up to and including the post-meditation experience of bodhisattvas on the tenth bhumi—are relative.

Moreover, there are two kinds of relative, the incorrect relative and the correct relative.

All that we perceive before we set out on the path belongs to the category of the incorrect relative. When we have reached the stage of ‘aspiring conduct,’ [1] if we can integrate some realization into our experience, it becomes the correct relative, but whenever we do not, it is the incorrect relative. Once we reach the bhumis, all that appears to the mind is the correct relative—‘relative’ because ‘mere appearances’ have not yet ceased, and [‘correct’] because their falsity is seen directly. These appearances continue to arise from the first bhumi until the tenth bhumi, since the age-old habit of perceiving things as real has not yet been abandoned, in the same way that the scent of musk will linger in a container. Eventually, at the level of buddhahood, when these habitual tendencies have been completely eradicated, there are no dualistic perceptions whatsoever, and one remains exclusively in the ultimate sphere, beyond any conceptual elaboration.

Clinging to the ordinary world, both the outer environment and the beings within it, as real is the incorrect relative. The antidote to this, such as visualizing everyone as pure deities and the environment as the pure mandala palace, while at the same time considering them to be a mere illusion, is the correct relative.

(ii) The Absolute Aspect

In essence, the absolute is the basic space of phenomena (dharmadhatu), devoid of all conceptual elaboration. In its essence, it is without any divisions, but still it is possible to speak of ‘divisions’ according to whether or not this reality has been realized. Thus, there are divisions into the absolute which is the basic nature itself and the absolute which is the realization (or ‘making evident’) of this basic nature. Then again, there is the division into the absolute that is clarified [2] through study and reflection and the absolute that is experienced through meditation practice; or the absolute that is conceptually inferred by ordinary beings versus the absolute that is experienced directly by noble beings. There is also a division into the conceptual absolute (namdrangpé döndam) and the absolute that is beyond conceptualization (namdrang mayinpé döndam).

There are three ways in which we can experience these two truths:

At the stage of ordinary beings, appearances are regarded as inherently real and are perceived with grasping. This is called the incorrect relative.


At the stage of noble beings, appearances are realized to be deceptive and are perceived without any grasping. This is called the correct relative.


At the stage of buddhahood, there are no ordinary appearances or non-appearances whatsoever, and any concerns about grasping or non-grasping no longer applies. This is called the absolute.


To put it another way, the first stage has both appearance and grasping, the middle stage has mere appearance without grasping, and at the final stage there is neither appearance nor grasping.

These three stages are also known as ‘misknowledge,’ ‘knowledge of understanding the relative’ and ‘knowledge of understanding the absolute.’ In the case of ordinary beings, the wisdom of understanding the relative depends on analysis, but for noble beings it is achieved through direct perception.

Although conventional notions such as ‘understanding’ or ‘not understanding’ do not apply to the absolute space of reality itself, we can still use terms like ‘understanding’ or ‘realizing’ to refer to the recognition of this state.

Ultimately we need to realize the indivisibility of the two truths, but claiming that the relative refers to existence, while on the absolute level things do not exist, will never qualify as the view of the Middle Way. When we realize the one genuine nature of the correct relative, the two truths will merge inseparably, beyond the conceptual extremes of existing, not existing, permanence and nothingness. As it says in the Mother Prajnaparamita:


The real nature of the relative is the real nature of the absolute.

The division into the two truths is only a provisional device, based on the distinct perspectives of two states of mind, that is made in order to facilitate understanding. All the various entities which appear to a confused state of mind are labelled ‘relative,’ whereas ‘absolute’ refers to a state of mind in which confusion has come to an end and in which there is not even the slightest trace of any conceptual focus, even towards non-existence itself. As it is said:


When the notions of real and unreal

Are absent from before the mind,

There is no other possibility,

But to rest in total peace, beyond concepts. [3]

In reality, within the great non-conceptual simplicity of the absolute sphere—the ultimate nature that is to be understood—there is no basis for making any distinction between two levels of reality, and so there is no such division. In the final realization of buddhahood too there is no division into two levels of truth. Even the delusory appearances we experience right now are not comprised of two distinct levels of reality; they are simply the inseparable unity of appearance and emptiness, or awareness and emptiness.

Realization or complete understanding of this is the wisdom mind of a buddha, the non-dual pristine awareness of reality itself. By understanding the two truths individually, eventually they will merge together in an inseparable union, and this is what we call ‘the non-dual wisdom of unity’ or ‘non-abiding nirvana’ and so on.

(2) The Natural Condition of One’s Own Mind

Although we may understand the natural condition of all knowable phenomena in this way, if we do not understand the natural condition of the knowing subject, which is our own mind, all phenomena will remain objects of knowledge and this will not serve as an antidote to our mental afflictions. In fact, this realization itself will become a cause for feeling arrogant and conceited, and only serve to reinforce our sense of a personal self. This is why we need to recognize the actual nature of the one who has the realization—that intellect, mind, or consciousness.

There are two aspects to this: (i) gaining provisional understanding in terms of the two truths, and (ii) gaining ultimate understanding in which the truths are inseparable.

(i) The Provisional Understanding In Terms Of The Two Truths

When we understand the natural condition of phenomena in general, and realize that they are similar to an illusion on the relative level because they appear although they are not truly existent, whereas they are like space on the absolute level because they can not be established as existent or non-existent, and we also understand that ultimately the truths are inseparable within the great Middle Way—the absolute space of reality beyond all conceptual extremes—the mind or awareness that has this understanding is relative. As Shantideva said:


The absolute lies beyond the reach of the intellect,

For the mind is only relative, it is taught. [4]

An intellectual mind that has this kind of understanding can become arrogant and conceited. This kind of arrogance and conceit are the agencies of mara and will only spoil our understanding. As The Sutra Revealing the Inconceivable Realm of the Buddhassays:


So called ‘attainment’ is transient indeed,

And so called ‘realization’ is arrogant assumption.

Transient or arrogant assumption, it must be the work of mara.

They are extremely arrogant who think, “I have attained this.”

Or say to themselves, “I have understood completely.”

The nature of the relative mind which understands is the absolute. If we look into the very nature of the awareness or mind or intellect which understands, we can not find anything real or substantial at all. In fact, it has always been devoid of existence and non-existence, devoid of arising and ceasing, devoid of coming and going, devoid of permanence and nothingness, devoid of past, present or future, and therefore it is absolute reality itself.

The Sutra Requested by Kashyapasays:


Mind is not to be found within. Nor does it exist outside. And it can not be observed anywhere else.

The Sutra Requested by Maitreyasays:


Mind has no shape, no colour and no location. It is like space.

(ii) The Ultimate Understanding in which the Truths are Inseparable

In the mind’s ultimate nature, the two truths are inseparable. The application of the two truths to the single nature of the mind is nothing more than a provisional use of labels or terminology. There is no ordinary mind within the ground or absolute space of reality, so there is no basis upon which the two truths could be applied. Nor is there any ordinary mind at the fruition, the wisdom mind of buddhahood, so that too can not be labelled in terms of two truths. Even in the clarity and emptiness, which is the nature of the minds of confused sentient beings, we can not find this [distinction], because there is only clear awareness and emptiness. This is why we must realize how the two truths are inseparable.

Even so, because the inseparability of the two truths can only be realized once we have understood the characteristics of each individually, there is still a purpose to making the twofold division.

In this way, the non-conceptual simplicity that is the natural condition of what is to be known merges indivisibly with the non-conceptual simplicity of the natural condition of mind. Within this experience, which is devoid of any notion of an individual self or phenomenal identity, all outer and inner phenomena are seen to be like uncreated space, free from any kind of conceptual construct such as existing, not existing, being permanent or nothingness and so on, and yet the experience is beyond the duality of something seen and one who sees, or something realized and one who realizes. Therefore it is perfect, unmistaken realization.

II. The Teaching On How To Put This Into Practice

This section has two parts.

1. The Direct Practice For Those With The Sharpest Faculties

Those who have gathered the two accumulations in the past, and who have profoundly good karma and good fortune can gain realization merely by receiving instructions on the two truths. In their case, simply to sustain the continuity of this recognition is sufficient. In their meditative equipoise, which is devoid of the duality of knowing and something known, and is beyond any notion of a self, they will meditate in a space-like way without any conceptual elaborations related to the two truths. When practising meditation like this, there are no negative thoughts to be cleared away and no positive states of mind to be focused upon. As Lord Maitreya says:


In this there is not a thing to be removed,

Nor the slightest thing to be added.

It is looking perfectly into reality itself,

And when reality is seen, complete liberation. [5]

Following this, [in the post-meditation period] one maintains the dream-like experience of the unity of the two truths by recognizing how all that is perceived appears while lacking any true reality. At the same time, with illusory bodhichitta, love and compassion for all illusory dream-like beings who have not realized this, one gathers the two illusory accumulations and makes vast prayers of aspiration for their benefit.

2. The Gradual Practice For Those With Duller Faculties

Those with duller faculties need to train in gradual stages, beginning with the four contemplations that turn the mind away from samsara. Unless they proceed this way, they will never go beyond conceptual ideas about profound realization.

It is said:


All our thoughts and perceptions are relative.

The realization of their nature is the absolute.

The mind which realizes this is the relative.

Mind’s absence of true reality is the absolute.

The terms signifying the two truths are relative.

The absence of true reality in such terms is the absolute.

The non-duality of these is the union of the two truths.

In the nature of what is known and the buddhas’ wisdom mind,

Even the unity of the two truths can not be observed,

And so it is called ‘the absolute space beyond elaboration.’

Therein, the self of the individual or of phenomena can not be found.

Realization of this is the view.

To abide by it is meditation.

To gather the accumulations out of a compassionate concern for others is action.

The dissolution of dualistic perception within basic space is the fruition.

Wisdom pervading everywhere represents enlightened qualities.

And naturally bringing about the benefit of others is enlightened activity.

Without clinging to words and labels as if they were the meaning itself,

Direct the mind instead to the meaning that words merely point towards.

The actual mind, which is the experiencer of phenomena, is devoid of any true reality, and so, in reference to this, we say that there is no self, no sentient being, no individual, no agent and so on. When we say “no” or “non-existent” in this context, it signifies that existence can not be established. Yet since existence can not be established, non-existence can not be established either, and so the term “no” signifies the non-establishment of both existence and non-existence.

This consciousness that perceives its object is not dependent on the sense faculties. It does not originate from objects. And it does not remain somewhere in between. It exists neither internally nor externally. When it arises it does not come from anywhere, and when it ceases it does not go anywhere. It is empty as it originates, and empty as it ceases to be. This is how it is described. In the sutras, for example, we find statements like this:

In that perfect seeing no phenomena whatsoever will appear.

And the Mother Prajnaparamitasays:


Conceptualization is involvement with the desire realm, form realm or formless realm. But non-conceptualization is not associated with any of them at all.

A sutra says:


When no activity whatsoever is performed,

That is what is called “yogic action.”

And:


Therefore, sustaining the ordinary state free from any dharmas is the supreme Dharma.

A sutra says:


What is the supreme Dharma?

It is the absence of any notion of dharmas.

The Mother Prajnaparamitasays:


Since no awakening can be observed, “awakening” is just a name. Since no buddhahood can be observed, it too is but a name.

The realization that there is nothing in the space-like natural condition of all phenomena which could be the object of consciousness or wisdom is the view. Remaining with that recognition—in the manner of ‘non-remaining’—is the meditation. In the post-meditation, to gather the illusory accumulation of merit for the sake of illusory sentient beings is the action. The dissolution of mind’s illusory perceptions within basic space is the ultimate fruition.


The basic space of phenomena is beyond conceptual elaboration and inexpressible by speech or thought,

In this, there is not the knowing of some object to be known.

Yet still, there is said to be the practice of view and meditation,

Like space viewing space or the sky meditating upon itself.

In genuine reality, there is no mind and no appearances,

But saying “no” indicates that even the dichotomy of existence and non-existence is transcended.

It is said that not fearing the profound meaning of emptiness but feeling inspired by it is the sign of a fortunate being who has heard and trained in the teachings before and is destined to swiftly reach awakening.


Reality itself, sky-like basic space, free from any thought,

When it is realized in a state of primal wisdom beyond expression,

Is fundamental equality, free from speculation or deliberate activity.

This is the wisdom mind of the buddhas of the three times

The absolute, the nature of reality itself, is like the child of a barren woman,

Nothing can manifest or appear; [6] it is simply a state of the most fundamental ordinariness.

To experience the conditioned phenomena of the relative, magical appearances of unity,

Without accepting or rejecting them and without attachment,

Is to take the wisdom mind of the buddhas into experience.

Until you reach this level of mental mastery and attainment,

Renounce any attachment to material possessions,

And keep to isolated forests and retreats, like a wild deer.

This is how to remain on the path without ever falling back.

Remain without joy or sorrow, attachment or aversion and so on [7]

Towards all circumstances, outer and inner, favourable and unfavourable,

And every experience will assist you greatly on your path.

This is how to find stable realization into the unborn nature of phenomena.

When the wisdom of realizing the sky-like nature of mind

And the compassion of not forsaking illusory sentient beings

Are brought together in concomitant view and activity,

Great non-abiding primal wisdom will swiftly be attained.

The Nirvana (Sutra) says:


Emptiness means perceiving neither ‘empty’ nor ‘non-empty.’ The natural radiance of emptiness can appear as anything at all. Since it is empty as it appears, appearance and emptiness are a unity. This can only be known by looking inwards. It is within the domain of your own self-knowing awareness-wisdom.

Machik Labdrön said:


When nothing whatsoever is conceptualized,

How could you possibly go astray?

Annihilate your conceptions. And rest.

And:


Since mind is not a duality,

Look as if there is nothing to be looked at.

This mind of ours is not seen by any ‘looking’.

Mind’s very nature of mind is not realized by being ‘seen.’

In fact, there is not the tiniest fraction

Of something to be looked at.

The nature of mind, empty and clear and beyond conceptual focus, is the genuine fundamental condition. Since this pure awareness, free from conceptual constructs and impossible to pinpoint, arises unceasingly [8] as the illusory appearances that are its basic expression, we must put all our trust in this state beyond clinging, this state in which there is no separation between meditation and post-meditation, and in which clarity and emptiness are a unity, and take it to heart through practice.

http://www.lotsawahouse.org/two-truths-patrul-rinpoche-lotsawa-house

:yo:

ROMANWKT
24th January 2012, 20:27
Wow BoB after very careful reading the sutras hopefully understanding where they are coming from, my only conclusion is that They don't know

regards as always Bob, very interesting study.
roman

another bob
24th January 2012, 20:41
Wow BoB after very careful reading the sutras hopefully understanding where they are coming from, my only conclusion is that They don't know

Thank you for your comments, Brother!

Hopefully one of the main points the reader will take away from this thread is that true spiritualty is not about becoming a knower (or accumulating intellectual attainments). There certainly is a time and place for study and the world of ideas, no doubt, but wisdom does not come from a book. Indeed, Ramana Maharshi once noted that one could go through a whole library of so-called spiritual literature and still not be one step closer to discovering who and what they really are.

So with the teachings in all the sutras: They are intended for the consideration and guidance of the discriminating minds of all people, but they are not the Truth itself, which can only be self-realized within one's deepest consciousness. Mahamati, you and all the Bodhisattvas must seek for this inner self-realization of Noble Wisdom, and not be captivated by word-teaching.

~Lankavatara Sutra


:yo:

ROMANWKT
24th January 2012, 20:53
I am after all these years, a nothing, a no one, and most surly, a nobody, but would still like to now the working of the illusion that shows resistance to me.

Thank you Bob for your interesting answers, which I in all reality count as truths

regards as always
roman

CD7
24th January 2012, 21:04
And christinedream7, sorry but you have to read all to understand

I dont know about that...seems ive been reading all my life and its ended up being a whole lot of talking with nothing ever really being said! It really seems tht way as of late and i have never really been a BIG fan of words...it seems to me the more words one uses the more a web is spun...spun to nowhere. So sorry, u are right...i didnt read all of it, once i see a web of words in any post i corouse through it...My consciousness wants nothing to do with my mind and brain.

Tony
24th January 2012, 21:14
Words are wonderful.... Love ....wind.......chocolate .....humour ....friend.... caring .....empathy .....smile ....giggle ... more love ...Milarepa! I love that name. ...and Roman!!!

ROMANWKT
24th January 2012, 21:21
And christinedream7, sorry but you have to read all to understand

I dont know about that...seems ive been reading all my life and its ended up being a whole lot of talking with nothing ever really being said! It really seems tht way as of late and i have never really been a BIG fan of words...it seems to me the more words one uses the more a web is spun...spun to nowhere. So sorry, u are right...i didnt read all of it, once i see a web of words in any post i corouse through it...My consciousness wants nothing to do with my mind and brain.

Sorry christinedream7

I did not mean it that way, and I understand where you are coming from, but at that moment I meant you should of followed though first, No problem, understand.

regards to you christinedream7

roman

¤=[Post Update]=¤


Words are wonderful.... Love ....wind.......chocolate .....humour ....friend.... caring .....empathy .....smile ....giggle ... more love ...Milarepa! I love that name. ...and Roman!!!

OH you are so good to me. thank you Tony.

regards as always
roman

Tony
24th January 2012, 21:28
The two truths: A mirror and its reflections.

The mirror is constant, the reflection are impermanent. = Empty essence, allowing consciousness to manifest.

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Words communicate....................................... love.

ROMANWKT
24th January 2012, 21:33
Therefore Tony a job and a half to explain the human potential through the mirrors reflection, doing the impossible and understanding the possible is easy once understood.

regards Tony

KellyNUTS
24th January 2012, 21:34
I think in order to have a placebo effect work for you at will you have to "master" the meaning of placebo, belief. Id say to do this you need to do the following:

- Take your current belief system.
- Think of what the absolute highest order of reality is for your belief system(for many this is "Source" or "God").
- Now step into your mind and take a journey from your perception of the highest order of reality down into your current body, in this space & time(today on earth)
- Once you can successfully reach from one end to the other without having one single contradiction in your belief system along the way you will be well on your way to mastering the placebo effect.
- Problem is I think you also would have to deprive yourself a fair bit from todays poisonous society, u know kind of like how monks do.

Id say by doing this, it would also bring you a wealth of knowledge of the system mechanics of human potential! ;)

CD7
24th January 2012, 21:35
The two truths: A mirror and its reflections.

The mirror is constant, the reflection are impermanent. = Empty essence, allowing consciousness to manifest.



This "truth" is relegated to the HOUSE of MIRRORS located in the three ring circus...at present i think the cracks are getting bigger :happy:

ROMANWKT
24th January 2012, 21:43
I would like you all to understand that we have some high ranking people who understand better that me what is and what is not possible, I am a bit of a provoker, and we have seen the result of Bobs and Tony contribution on this site which make us all understand the teaching that have been known for eons concerning reality, I am trying to provoke all that I can to get these guys to spill all the knowledgeable beans, because we have to start human potential with the greatest understanding that we can muster, hopefully, our attempt to have some control of this reality will seep through.

Regards and thanks to Tony and Bob, and ask please don't stop, give us more.

ROMANWKT
24th January 2012, 21:47
I think in order to have a placebo effect work for you at will you have to "master" the meaning of placebo, belief. Id say to do this you need to do the following:

- Take your current belief system.
- Think of what the absolute highest order of reality is for your belief system(for many this is "Source" or "God").
- Now step into your mind and take a journey from your perception of the highest order of reality down into your current body, in this space & time(today on earth)
- Once you can successfully reach from one end to the other without having one single contradiction in your belief system along the way you will be well on your way to mastering the placebo effect.
- Problem is I think you also would have to deprive yourself a fair bit from todays poisonous society, u know kind of like how monks do.

Id say by doing this, it would also bring you a wealth of knowledge of the system mechanics of human potential! ;)

Hi the biggest problem is the removal of the old belief, read part 1 for a placebo at the beginning of this thread

regards to
roman

another bob
24th January 2012, 21:55
I am after all these years, a nothing, a no one, and most surly, a nobody, but would still like to now the working of the illusion that shows resistance to me.

Well, OK -- if you really want to know:

First, clear your calender, pay your bills, kiss your friends, and find a good spot to spend some time. Once you have done all that, and are in your good spot, take a seat.

Now, you are going to be taking a good long look at your mind.

As each thought arises, turn your attention back to its source. Once you have gained some stability in abiding at the source of your thoughts, you will be like a cat keeping its unswerving attention on the mouse hole.

Just remain relaxed and alert, no longer subject to seductive distractions or the lure of any compelling thoughtform, allowing all notions, feelings, memories, perceptions, and sensations to rise and dissolve without granting them any substantial reality.

Keep this practice going day and night. In about 3 years, if the causal seeds and conditions for your awakening have ripened, you will.

Woo Yay!

At that moment, may you forgive me for suggesting that you spend three years confirming what you now see as clear and obvious, but it seems that most folks have to learn the hard way!

:yo:

ROMANWKT
24th January 2012, 22:05
I am after all these years, a nothing, a no one, and most surly, a nobody, but would still like to now the working of the illusion that shows resistance to me.

Well, OK -- if you really want to know:

First, clear your calender, pay your bills, kiss your friends, and find a good spot to spend some time. Once you have done all that, and are in your good spot, take a seat.

Now, you are going to be taking a good long look at your mind.

As each thought arises, turn your attention back to its source. Once you have gained some stability in abiding at the source of your thoughts, you will be like a cat keeping its unswerving attention on the mouse hole.

Just remain relaxed and alert, no longer subject to seductive distractions or the lure of any compelling thoughtform, allowing all notions, feelings, memories, perceptions, and sensations to rise and dissolve without granting them any substantial reality.

Keep this practice going day and night. In about 3 years, if the causal seeds and conditions for your awakening have ripened, you will.

Woo Yay!

At that moment, may you forgive me for suggesting that you spend three years confirming what you now see as clear and obvious, but it seems that most folks have to learn the hard way!

:yo:

My Dear Bob

now you're talking, this is an understanding for all of us, and yes you have just describe the mechanic, which is based on inner control and understanding, banging ones head is not an option, knowing and understanding is all one can do, but you got to know first.

thank you for that Bob, please don't stop, because one leads to the other, and at the end all dump the initial idea because one has achieved all that you have been trying to teach, its the carrot Sir.

another bob
25th January 2012, 01:30
...banging ones head is not an option, knowing and understanding is all one can do, but you got to know first.

My Friend, at any given time on earth, only a few will be willing to take up this direct approach, and fewer still will see it through to fruition. The reason for that is simple -- we all still have an interest in other things, and so we bounce around, unable to clarify our intent. Without a clear intent, one will not get very far. Fortunately, there are as many different paths as there are beings, but the one sketched out above is the direct way.

In the direct way, whatever one's concerns happen to be -- if one is serious about awakening, and so much so that nothing else will satisfy -- then they'll need to quickly whittle those concerns down, discarding any that do not directly support the effort. This approach demands a supreme faith in one's own original nature, and so yes -- that primordial impulse at the beginning of the search is born from the same recognition of that which is fully realized to be true when seeking comes to an end.


“We live in illusion and the appearance of things. There is a reality. We are that reality. When you understand this, you see that you are nothing, and being nothing, you are everything. That is all.”

~Kalu Rinpoche


:yo:

ROMANWKT
25th January 2012, 20:47
...banging ones head is not an option, knowing and understanding is all one can do, but you got to know first.

My Friend, at any given time on earth, only a few will be willing to take up this direct approach, and fewer still will see it through to fruition. The reason for that is simple -- we all still have an interest in other things, and so we bounce around, unable to clarify our intent. Without a clear intent, one will not get very far. Fortunately, there are as many different paths as there are beings, but the one sketched out above is the direct way.

In the direct way, whatever one's concerns happen to be -- if one is serious about awakening, and so much so that nothing else will satisfy -- then they'll need to quickly whittle those concerns down, discarding any that do not directly support the effort. This approach demands a supreme faith in one's own original nature, and so yes -- that primordial impulse at the beginning of the search is born from the same recognition of that which is fully realized to be true when seeking comes to an end.


“We live in illusion and the appearance of things. There is a reality. We are that reality. When you understand this, you see that you are nothing, and being nothing, you are everything. That is all.”

~Kalu Rinpoche


:yo:

Here's a pertinent piece on "Manifesting", which is the salient issue of this inquiry:

During my afterlife experience, I received two separate "downloads" of information about manifesting physical reality. The first came right after I had intentionally manifested three completely real feeling earth-like scenes. I knew they were not real, because I knew I was no longer on Earth. The scenes were identified to me as "manifestations." The second download came after I had completed the transformation into spiritual perspective, and realized my human life had not been real at all. Human life was identified to me as a "manifestation."

I learned that "manifesting" is the phenomenon by which Source/God creates what humans perceive to be physical matter and physical reality. I also learned that we are not humans, which are manifested animals. Rather, we are something like characters or personalities within Source's own mind/consciousness. Therefore, as parts of Source, we also manifest physical matter and physical reality, though on a smaller scale. We continue to manifest while inhabiting human animal bodies as "souls." Humans themselves cannot manifest.

Like Source itself, we manifest reality by focusing our "attention and intention" on what we desire to experience. "Attention" can take any form that focuses us on the topic of interest, such as ordering our thoughts, visualizing what we want to create, researching the subject, conversation about the subject, and taking physical action in furtherance of what we want to experience. "Intention" must be spiritual creative intention. The highest form of creative intention is expectation--certainty at our spiritual level that a thing will exist, or an event transpire. Manifesting is an innate spiritual mental power. It has nothing to do with human desire or emotions, which are irrelevant.

We "souls" use manifesting to moment-by-moment craft our own sense of reality, as well as contribute to the collective co-creation of Earth that we all experience (though how we experience it differs from person to person). If we are not manifesting consciously, we are doing so unconsciously. We use manifesting to serve our spiritual purposes, not human greed. There is no spiritual get rich quick scheme, as manifesting is sometimes portrayed. Manifesting follows beliefs. We consciously and unconsciously manifest into reality what we truly and deeply believe. Sometimes we experience something we think we would never have chosen for ourselves. But, in reality, we may simply be manifesting from beliefs of which we are unaware.

There is no "Law of Attraction," according to what I learned in the afterlife. The idea of a law of attraction is based on the human belief that we are separate beings from Source--that we are humans. It is easier to believe we are separate from Source, and that we can use human powers to attract something we want from the universe/Source/God, than to accept that we are actually part of the Supreme Being we worship. But we are part of Source. And we do have its powers. We do not attract anything from the universe; rather, we create what we want within the physical matter universe. We are co-creators with Source of this universe and everything in it.

~Nanci Danison

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Hi Bob

I noticed this and thought of putting this in here from one of your post, its relevant for me and others.

Regards as always Bob
roman

Tony
25th January 2012, 20:56
Of course, there is always the well trodden path of Phuckit...to anything that arises, just say "Phuckit!" and then rest in the silence that lingers...

Tony

ROMANWKT
25th January 2012, 21:25
Of course, there is always the well trodden path of Phuckit...to anything that arises, just say "Phuckit!" and then rest in the silence that lingers...

Tony

Funny that Tony I always say that anyway, but just spell it differently hehe
regards roman

another bob
25th January 2012, 21:36
Of course, there is always the well trodden path of Phuckit...to anything that arises, just say "Phuckit!" and then rest in the silence that lingers...

Tony

There is still some emotional content there.

:yo:

Sebastion
25th January 2012, 22:20
I would agree 100% with what Nancy has to say with the addition of one word to one sentence. "The highest form of creative intention is "loving" expectation--certainty at our spiritual level that a thing will exist or, an event transpire." She is spot on as it does not have anything to do with "human" emotion, desires.

ROMANWKT
25th January 2012, 23:23
I would agree 100% with what Nancy has to say with the addition of one word to one sentence. "The highest form of creative intention is "loving" expectation--certainty at our spiritual level that a thing will exist or, an event transpire." She is spot on as it does not have anything to do with "human" emotion, desires.

Sorry Sebastion are you calling me a Nancy, Tony and Bob and myself are discussing a powerful word used when thought arise, if you say "Phuckit!" "Phuckit!" "Phuckit!" you'll understand the silence that lingers...

I hope you were not calling me a Nancy
my regards to you Sebastion
roman

aranuk
26th January 2012, 00:09
How about this Video that has caused a bit of a stir, based on the old gods and new tech understanding, see what you think of it, it been shown before, try it again.

http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-6226036544608625413&hl=en

regards
roman

Hi Roman I want to say stuff about Non thinking, but that video had me bored out of my mind , sorry I had to switch it of after 30 mins.

I will get back with hopefully more positive comments .

Stan

Sebastion
26th January 2012, 00:33
Forgive me Roman but having that realization through direct experience 25 years ago, my conclusions were exactly the same. However, I went on from that point. My insertion of the word "loving" was for a reason and it is not human love I refer to. Obviously, that point was missed. My regards to all of you!

Sebastion
26th January 2012, 05:40
Thought I would add to my previous post as I used the term direct experience. Methinks when you have read Jake's thread titled "The Book of Jacob", then you will know exactly what is referred to, once you have read the book.

Tony
26th January 2012, 20:44
Hello Roman,
This video is for your thread. ( I'm still work on technicals problems of being a decent human being!)
It's a short explanation of the two truths.

xr36NeKyUQ4

ROMANWKT
26th January 2012, 21:15
Thank you very much Tony beautifully done and very profound as always, yes I do understand, and feel that it what I always felt, and between Yourself and Bob, you both have made the understanding of our reality much easier to understand, and take the appropriate action that you have both given us here to aspire to and eventually defeat the mind.

Thank very, very much for that, and please to keep your contribution with your wisdom going here, as soon we will be changing direction in the spectrum of the human potential.

Warmest regards as ever to you Tony and Kathie
roman

ROMANWKT
26th January 2012, 21:43
Forgive me Roman but having that realization through direct experience 25 years ago, my conclusions were exactly the same. However, I went on from that point. My insertion of the word "loving" was for a reason and it is not human love I refer to. Obviously, that point was missed. My regards to all of you!

Hi Sebastion
Thank you so very much for playing ball, and hope you understood, just kidding, but when Tony sent me this short post about the word, I was so surprised that I couldn't stop laughing, it really tickled me, any ways thank you for being a sport, and yes I have read JAKES book and told him so yesterday that it was my OBE bible, as it was very precise and well written

My regards to you Sebastion and thank you

roman

CD7
28th January 2012, 00:22
I learned that "manifesting" is the phenomenon by which Source/God creates what humans perceive to be physical matter and physical reality. I also learned that we are not humans, which are manifested animals. Rather, we are something like characters or personalities within Source's own mind/consciousness. Therefore, as parts of Source, we also manifest physical matter and physical reality, though on a smaller scale. We continue to manifest while inhabiting human animal bodies as "souls." Humans themselves cannot manifest.

Like Source itself, we manifest reality by focusing our "attention and intention" on what we desire to experience. "Attention" can take any form that focuses us on the topic of interest, such as ordering our thoughts, visualizing what we want to create, researching the subject, conversation about the subject, and taking physical action in furtherance of what we want to experience. "Intention" must be spiritual creative intention. The highest form of creative intention is expectation--certainty at our spiritual level that a thing will exist, or an event transpire. Manifesting is an innate spiritual mental power. It has nothing to do with human desire or emotions, which are irrelevant.




This was one of the most important points made in the bill interviews....discussing the importance of our consciousness and its "imagined" "impossibilities"

Practicing art/creation helps to cultivate the muscle for manifestation...this coupled with a loving heart is quite POTENT. The artist "practices" creation in the mind and over time it becomes easier and easier to In-vision a desired outcome and with practice comes better precision in one's intention for manifestation.

THIS is so crucial for all of us and leaves no doubt when questioning WHY the arts are not a priority in schools----QUITE literally its the opposite..creativity is stiffled and instead replaced with a script for all girls and boys to regurgitate until it becomes your daily playing record.