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Ultima Thule
2nd February 2012, 11:46
Fill me in according to your perspectives in relation to this crude example, if it feels appropriate I might drop in some other scenarios:

If there is a criminal that has killed many and is about to do some more killing and I am in the position to kill him, what is going to go down with me "Karma-vise"? Am I excused of any karma accumulating due to me committing an act of killing, because it is for a greater good and the criminal had it coming? Or am I to face karmic consequences just the same as I would killing an innocent being?

UT

markpierre
2nd February 2012, 11:54
Karma is self-accusation, so you pretty much make up your mind for yourself.

All those other scenarios too.

Oouthere
2nd February 2012, 12:12
I agree with Mark. I use to believe that if a person was intentionally killed by someone that the killer had to pay in another life....sort of like each person decided to come here and experience everything they go through knowing how it would be. Neither are true imo. The Jews of WWII were not here to watch their children die in a gas chamber.

To me the biggest argument is this....what if an off-world non-human race killed all humans on earth and inhabited our planet. Would we then incarnate within their society and bodies since a common conception is we are attached to the planet of which we die? Would we take on their traits of domination? Traits tend to follow genetic lines and perhaps our souls/consciousness only adapts to what it animates/occupies.

Another thought is what if the past lives we do remember are simple programming, like writing a history into a computer browser that never really occurred. The human consciousness may be a product of the brain even though it can leave the body but no different than flying a remote controlled airplane. The universal mind experience may also be an induced experience by those controlling the petri dish. Are we true life forms or simply a biological computer with programming making it think it is alive?

Rich

markpierre
2nd February 2012, 12:31
You could really really be enjoying the nastiest karma you've ever been working off. There's no way to even guess what 'correction' might need to look like.

But when your cause and effect get close enough together, you pause and consider making selfish decisions.

GaelVictor
2nd February 2012, 12:45
Karma comes in doses, and you can burn up karma too by serving, suffering and acts of kindness.
When you kill someone ''innocent'' -> lots of karma
When you kill a killer -> lots of karma
When you kill a killer in self-defence-> not so much karma
When you restrain a killer from more killing without harming-> no karma
When you forgive the killer and act in kindness-> burn karma.

It also varies with consciousness of the deeds you do;
When doing bad things in the fullest possible consciousness you're basically a karma magnet and you are going to live in hell, this life or one of the next.
Also when you die and have accumulated a lot of karma and enter the soul slumber, your soul will manifest itself on the lower planes of the 4th dimension, because you have low vibration, due to bad karma and general low consciousness. (and it ain't pretty there)

markpierre
2nd February 2012, 12:53
What's being corrected is the imbalance of fear or contraction, and a natural condition which is expansion. Like a bladder sucking in or blowing out, it gets exercised to greater elasticity.
There's no more judgement in it than that.

Ultima Thule
2nd February 2012, 13:22
I agree with Mark. I use to believe that if a person was intentionally killed by someone that the killer had to pay in another life....sort of like each person decided to come here and experience everything they go through knowing how it would be. Neither are true imo. The Jews of WWII were not here to watch their children die in a gas chamber.
Rich

Aurelia Louise Jones once told in a course a fascinating idea: the spanish conquistador and the southern american victims of theirs switched later in many instances places -> southern america at some time was quite slummed and the spirituality rose quite high in spain. Ie. what if the souls of the jews killed come back to germany to enjoy the benefits of that country and the germans guilty spend some time in imprisonment and oppression somewhere else?
Just a thought.
UT

¤=[Post Update]=¤


Another thought is what if the past lives we do remember are simple programming, like writing a history into a computer browser that never really occurred. The human consciousness may be a product of the brain even though it can leave the body but no different than flying a remote controlled airplane. The universal mind experience may also be an induced experience by those controlling the petri dish. Are we true life forms or simply a biological computer with programming making it think it is alive?

Rich
Indeed - am I sentient and eternal or am I the android that dreams of electric sheep - do I build up a story and memories to make meaning to my existence?
UT

markpierre
2nd February 2012, 13:25
Or what if they all meet up and recognize each other and become best friends??

Ultima Thule
2nd February 2012, 13:25
Karma comes in doses, and you can burn up karma too by serving, suffering and acts of kindness.
When you kill someone ''innocent'' -> lots of karma
When you kill a killer -> lots of karma
When you kill a killer in self-defence-> not so much karma
When you restrain a killer from more killing without harming-> no karma
When you forgive the killer and act in kindness-> burn karma.


Sounds reasonable and well organized - I could live with that. However for the sake of studying karma I ask: where do you base your opinion?

What if you have no choice but to kill the killer thus preventing more harm with no chance of restraining? Is it possible that what you do in this life has been already balanced before? Is it possible that by killing you are only equalizing the game?
UT

Anchor
2nd February 2012, 13:32
Fill me in according to your perspectives in relation to this crude example, if it feels appropriate I might drop in some other scenarios:

If there is a criminal that has killed many and is about to do some more killing and I am in the position to kill him, what is going to go down with me "Karma-vise"? Am I excused of any karma accumulating due to me committing an act of killing, because it is for a greater good and the criminal had it coming? Or am I to face karmic consequences just the same as I would killing an innocent being?

Fun stuff.

First let me define what I mean by Karma, since I think that there are many variations on a theme.

Consequent to a freewill intent- any thought which we create (or any creation we think), any act we do, word we speak - anything that follows from the impetus given by our creative mind by that intent, starts a motion in the fabric of the universe with something like inertia - and it is that inertia which I think is directly referred to in the concept of karma. The karma creates the associated distortions that set up the means by which karma's effects will play out in the universe. The universe is forever changed as a consequence of our creative act.

In some cases, that inertia can run-amok causing effects that we may see as entirely separate from that root cause, and indeed we may loose sight of the sequence, it being too subtle for our finite minds - indeed lasting beyond our physical incarnations.

And as a snowball running down the hill gets larger, the cascade of cause and effect can often be such that the consequences can take on a "life" of their own - especially if we unwittingly persist in rolling that snowball.

Even if the ball escapes us and continues its own merry way, we remain responsible for all that we create.

This inertia can be neutralized.


If there is a criminal that has killed many and is about to do some more killing and I am in the position to kill him, what is going to go down with me "Karma-vise"?

If you intend to kill him and you kill him, you will infringe on the freewill of the killer, and you will create karmic consequence in so doing... that will need to be balanced.


Am I excused of any karma accumulating due to me committing an act of killing, because it is for a greater good and the criminal had it coming?

No. I know this because no-one is excused from karma.

Anyway, how do you know it is for the greater good. Who made you judge, jury and executioner? Did the criminal ask you to judge him and kill him? Was it expected?

Self defence and the even defence of others, even to the extent of offence - is at times necessary, but don't think for one minute that you will not see karma play its part for your actions nor any other of those capable of creating and/or initiating action under freewill.

Hypothetical examples are a stretch and unrealistic. You will encounter only those situations in your life that you need to encounter - so the situation are very personal and measured, therefore so are the opportunities for karma creation.


Or am I to face karmic consequences just the same as I would killing an innocent being?

You would create karma for yourself.

I wouldn't say it would be the same as killing an "innocent" being.

I think of Karma as an aspect of the mechanics of the fabric of our co-creation/reality/illusion. It spawns from the resolution of all the vectors of energy in an action, taking into account the infinitely subtle situations and factors and thereby causing the measure of distortion in your illusion of reality which is your karma (for that action).

I don't thing karma is summed up as such. You likely have many threads of karma woven into the fabric of your situation.

It would be worth pondering how to stop karma that is set in motion - I think it is a much more important subject than the fact and mechanics of karma, and that is forgiveness.

Forgiveness is the key to stopping the wheel of karma.

When we say "oh its because of my karma" I translate that into "my life is being distorted by the effects of my karma" and we have the capacity to heal those distortions, if we are fortunate enough to note them properly in the first place.

We should note, that karma is neither good nor bad - however - due to our current conditionings and mind sets we often discuss karma in negative contexts. It cuts both ways. I am a highly positive person, so to finish on a positive note I want to just remind you "good karma" is much nicer ;)

Ultima Thule
2nd February 2012, 13:33
Or what if they all meet up and recognize each other and become best friends??

Another fine scenario - I end up neighbors with a person that I have massive karma in between and I reconcile my karmic issues by owning and borrowing of extensive set of household tools and go bowling with the guy and always support him and lend an ear?
UT

Ultima Thule
2nd February 2012, 13:42
Thanks Anchor, a fine post!
Your description of karmic events oscillating in time and space reminds me of driving a car in slippery environment - minus 26 degree centigrade at the moment, not a lot to do here :p - you make an error in steering and if you panic and correct it with overtly manner, your car will end up the other side of the road, in the woods that is... The key to steering well is subtle movements and waiting to see what has transpired from your last action, that will keep you on the road.

The reason I picked up that particular hypothetical situation is because I have been interested in the differing views of should a person take strong action or not and whether one of them is better over the other one. In this case raising the question of do I let it play out or do I take action.

In fact: is taking action the first thing that initially got the ball rolling?
UT

Anchor
2nd February 2012, 13:48
In this case raising the question of do I let it play out or do I take action.

Follow your heart.

There are no mistakes and everything is perfect.

Each situation presents you with a choice. Karma may eventuate, but thats ok too.

The review of actions taken provides the opportunity to further act if necessary to address any undesired karma.

Either way, you choose, you act, stuff happens, you experience, you get wiser.

Its only a mistake if you think it is, or accept the advise of another in that judgement - and even that is up to you.

¤=[Post Update]=¤

----------


In fact: is taking action the first thing that initially got the ball rolling?

Yes. (For that action... each action, new ball...)

Ultima Thule
2nd February 2012, 13:55
In this case raising the question of do I let it play out or do I take action.

Follow your heart.

There are no mistakes and everything is perfect.

Each situation presents you with a choice. Karma may eventuate, but thats ok too.
[COLOR="red"]
I can relate to that.
I will however ponder it a bit more:if everything is perfect and there are no mistakes, what is my role in that context? If I have a choice like in this example of mine, where I can either let the killer go about his business and kill some more, or given chance stop him by killing him - are you suggesting by perfect that eventually every choice is perfect, whether you take action or don´t. Is it all down to me or you choosing in-between which way to go on our way back to unity - do I take a detour in eventuating karma and therefore explore some sidetracks or do I aim for a more straightforward route?

UT

Ultima Thule
2nd February 2012, 14:01
Yes. (For that action... each action, new ball...)

So in essence once there was nothing but there was unity - let´s say god - and basically the first thing he invented when going into separation was a ball. Boy will soccer-fans love this! Everything is a game, but ask any serious soccer fan how serious a game it is, and one gets an idea of the name of the karmic game. ;)

How do you feel about free will? Does one exercise free will over how one chooses to resolve karmic issues in given lifetime?

UT

markpierre
2nd February 2012, 14:07
The 'right' thing to do (what you need to do, or actually do) might be the wrong thing according to your belief system. Oooh, that's a toughy.

Anchor
2nd February 2012, 14:12
what is my role in that context?

To act, to choose, to experience, to be.


If I have a choice like in this example of mine, where I can either let the killer go about his business and kill some more, or given chance stop him by killing him - are you suggesting by perfect that eventually every choice is perfect, whether you take action or don´t.

It is perfect from the unity perspective, not from your experiential filtered perspective. One may however take comfort in the former, especially is one acts in the knowledge that all-is-one.


Is it all down to me or you choosing in-between which way to go on our way back to unity - do I take a detour in eventuating karma and therefore explore some sidetracks or do I aim for a more straightforward route?

Whatever you like :)


So in essence once there was nothing but there was unity - let´s say god - and basically the first thing he invented when going into separation was a ball. Boy will soccer-fans love this! Everything is a game, but ask any serious soccer fan how serious a game it is, and one gets an idea of the name of the karmic game. ;)

How do you feel about free will? Does one exercise free will over how one chooses to resolve karmic issues in given lifetime?

Freewill isn't something I feel about. It is a simple fact. I have it, and you have it. Situations where-in others may infringe upon it are often karmic in nature - catalysts for learning/re-learning/experiencing that which is necessary.

To resolve a karmic issue, you first have to know that you have one :)

You can do whatever you want and feel and judge to be appropriate. It is freewill that gives you the choice to do that.

John..

PS: Goodnight from me ! Its very late here, this has kept me up :)

Anchor
2nd February 2012, 14:15
The 'right' thing to do (what you need to do, or actually do) might be the wrong thing according to your belief system. Oooh, that's a toughy.

As you discover and resolve karma, you see the greatest teacher of all letting you know what is what and what is the actual truth of the matter :)

markpierre
2nd February 2012, 14:28
The 'right' thing to do (what you need to do, or actually do) might be the wrong thing according to your belief system. Oooh, that's a toughy.

As you discover and resolve karma, you see the greatest teacher of all letting you know what is what and what is the actual truth of the matter :)

That might have zero influence on your decision.

trenairio
2nd February 2012, 14:34
The least I can do, or anyone else, is sit back and let the world be as it is, untouched, and resolve as much kharma before imminent death. but what is collective kharma...?

ljwheat
2nd February 2012, 14:50
Karma ? The original Sin? The tip of your finger pointing at self, were in all of nature dose this insanity take place. Pause for pondering------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Back engineer the source of the teaching’s of self control. What animal destroys its self by pure thought only. Civilization, domesticated, pecking order, only one animal, herds itself into physical and mental prisons that benefit who?

Who manufactured all the locks and key’s, in nature there are none, if this insanity happens in a animal it’s the cause of domestication is it not?

Karma is of men’s minds ------ there is no Karma, original sin. Guilt trip of the domesticated mind control of fear to keep us questioning instead of living. Again back engineer this mental control it has no substance, just miss directed energy for what purpose? And who benefits for your self searching and controlling ideas? Where in nature? Namaste John

GaelVictor
2nd February 2012, 15:05
Universal law of cause and effect is where karma stems from. It has nothing to do with man's mind perse.

Ultima Thule
2nd February 2012, 15:11
Karma is of men’s minds ------ there is no Karma, original sin. Guilt trip of the domesticated mind control of fear to keep us questioning instead of living. Again back engineer this mental control it has no substance, just miss directed energy for what purpose? And who benefits for your self searching and controlling ideas? Where in nature? Namaste John
A worthwhile opinion - I wonder if I do one thing, say kill the killer in my example, resolving in accumulating karma, but stepping back to view a larger context, it alleviates my karma, and again stepping back for a wider view, it is creating karma etc. Where does it stop, who can say for certain? Is karma, as you said, makings of our mind - an escape or a reason depending how you view it?

This is not to argue with anyone, but out of great interest I ask:
Does anyone in here have anything absolutely substantial to say about karma, other than what a religion or a spiritual master has lead to believe? Do we have anything other than second hand knowledge?

UT

Ultima Thule
2nd February 2012, 15:14
Universal law of cause and effect is where karma stems from. It has nothing to do with man's mind perse.

Could you consider karma being related in function to matter and antimatter in the way you describe universal law? The very existence of the other calls for the other. Terming it differently the very act of kindness I exercise creates act of unkindness? Are acts of kindness and unkindness equal or just a bit biased to the side of kindness? Which I believe is the case with matter being ever-so-slightly more abundant than antimatter.

UT

GaelVictor
2nd February 2012, 15:22
This is not to argue with anyone, but out of great interest I ask:
Does anyone in here have anything absolutely substantial to say about karma, other than what a religion or a spiritual master has lead to believe? Do we have anything but second hand knowledge?



At one point i lost all karma, it burned up, all of it. I was in a state of total awareness, present in the now.
Time seemed to have lost it's grip, and everything, and everyone i focussed on became crystal clear in all it's layers.
Fearless and full of wisdom, full of compassion and understanding.
But i lost it again, slowly i could feel the instances of karma build up, and lost sight of my ''I'' again. :)
Like a ship, leaving the quay.
Dont know if that was ''absolutely substatial'' but it's my practical experience.

Ultima Thule
2nd February 2012, 15:36
This is not to argue with anyone, but out of great interest I ask:
Does anyone in here have anything absolutely substantial to say about karma, other than what a religion or a spiritual master has lead to believe? Do we have anything but second hand knowledge?



At one point i lost all karma, it burned up, all of it. I was in a state of total awareness, present in the now.
Time seemed to have lost it's grip, and everything, and everyone i focussed on became crystal clear in all it's layers.
Fearless and full of wisdom, full of compassion and understanding.
But i lost it again, slowly i could feel the instances of karma build up, and lost sight of my ''I'' again. :)
Like a ship, leaving the quay.
Dont know if that was ''absolutely substatial'' but it's my practical experience.

Very interesting, thank you for sharing! How did you come aware that karma was all gone?
I am asking because I´ve had on occasion experience where I could feel what is eternal in me being present in all times simultaneously from the beginning to the end. How does one discern what is going on at such a moment? If that would be called an enlightened moment, does it mean there is no longer karma at that moment, and therefore you can be enlightened just as long as you stay karma-free? Earning it every moment again.

UT

GaelVictor
2nd February 2012, 15:37
UT;
''Could you consider karma being related in function to matter and antimatter in the way you describe universal law? The very existence of the other calls for the other. Terming it differently the very act of kindness I exercise creates act of unkindness? Are acts of kindness and unkindness equal or just a bit biased to the side of kindness? Which I believe is the case with matter being ever-so-slightly more abundant than antimatter''




in that case we need another law; Universal law of Polarity.
Negative and positive are just extremes of the same pole.

That could apply on matter/anti-matter too.

But i feel more inclined towards the Universal law of Rhythm in which karma operates; within the law of Polarity.

The principle of Rhythm; Everything flows, out and in; everything has it's tides; all things rise and fall; the pendulum-swing manifests in everything; the measure of the swing to the right is the measure of the swing to the left; rhythm compensates.

Ultima Thule
2nd February 2012, 15:41
in that case we need another law; Universal law of Polarity.
Negative and positive are just extremes of the same pole.

That could apply on matter/anti-matter too.

But i feel more inclined towards the Universal law of Rhythm in which karma operates; within the law of Polarity.

The principle of Rhythm; Everything flows, out and in; everything has it's tides; all things rise and fall; the pendulum-swing manifests in everything; the measure of the swing to the right is the measure of the swing to the left; rhythm compensates.

Very good!
I´ve figured rhythm is being created by polarities creating movement as they antagonize, mold and compensate for each other. Rhythm creating balance. To extrapolate from there: karma is the very rhythm to keep balance and actually making balance possible.

This leads to something else: if one is totally karma-free, does it mean that he/she is no longer playing in this game and according to these rules and is bound to go somewhere else to play by different rules? Or is karma like your credit card - when you pay it all, you can´t keep it that way, but you are tempted to use it after some time?

UT

greybeard
2nd February 2012, 15:54
Universal law of cause and effect is where karma stems from. It has nothing to do with man's mind perse.

True and yet not quite.

Cause and effect is similar to two and two = 4 always.

With karma there are consequences for every action but they are not predictable.

Chris

ljwheat
2nd February 2012, 16:22
Karma is a thought nothing more, Everything on this planet is eating each other, your’s is cosmetic as its killed and possessed for you. Regardless what name you give it, every time you open your mouth and bite down on a peace of food, your eating Karma. Even minerals vitamin’s yogurt, all things living the hole planet is mass murdering constantly all things die and are consumed.

The garments you wear, the house you live in the food you eat, it all is killed for what ever reason, man takes, everything’s takes everything kills.

Civilized people buy from who, killers. You want to stack up a grocery list of karma, get out of this sterilized world of dogmas and look at what has to die for your civilized world to work the nice easy way your living,

Karma is table manners who sits were and how your to sit. Show me anything in your life that doesn’t have to parish for us to live?

A slaughter house are they all mass murder’s that we pay to kill and presses out food? A deep breath of air contains so much life in microbes that will end in death, the water you drink same thing. Our sanitized society is guilty of mass murder on a global scale what do you do with that Karma?

And who dose it serve?

Namaste John no karma in nature why just men?

GaelVictor
2nd February 2012, 16:29
This leads to something else: if one is totally karma-free, does it mean that he/she is no longer playing in this game and according to these rules and is bound to go somewhere else to play by different rules? Or is karma like your credit card - when you pay it all, you can´t keep it that way, but you are tempted to use it after some time?



You're still a player, but instead of being moved as a pawn on the playingfield, you now become a Mover of chesspieces across the board..
But unless you learned your lessons well and implement them disciplined you'll find yourself back as a piece again, maybe not a pawn, but still even the king is just a piece being moved.

Alie
2nd February 2012, 16:34
Regarding your scenario of karma. It has been suggested that we knew the "play" before we incarnated, so it was our role to kill him/her and it was their role to be "evil". My worldview up until the last year was that all the bad I gave out came back "on my head". Now I'm rethinking this belief since I'm learning about convergence of our dual realities. It seems we must have the antithesis in order for the synthesis to refine us. Where did I learn this --- Thesis, Antithesis, Synthesis ---- Ascension? I wish I could remember but it was recent.

Ultima Thule
2nd February 2012, 16:37
Universal law of cause and effect is where karma stems from. It has nothing to do with man's mind perse.

True and yet not quite.

Cause and effect is similar to two and two = 4 always.

With karma there are consequences for every action but they are not predictable.

Chris

Very good!
Meaning I can´t know whose and what kind of equation I am adding my two into, and therefore cannot know the end result, when I am moved to - by my example - to for example let the killer go about his business?

UT

Ultima Thule
2nd February 2012, 16:44
Karma is a thought nothing more, Everything on this planet is eating each other, your’s is cosmetic as its killed and possessed for you. Regardless what name you give it, every time you open your mouth and bite down on a peace of food, your eating Karma. Even minerals vitamin’s yogurt, all things living the hole planet is mass murdering constantly all things die and are consumed.

The garments you wear, the house you live in the food you eat, it all is killed for what ever reason, man takes, everything’s takes everything kills.

Civilized people buy from who, killers. You want to stack up a grocery list of karma, get out of this sterilized world of dogmas and look at what has to die for your civilized world to work the nice easy way your living,

Karma is table manners who sits were and how your to sit. Show me anything in your life that doesn’t have to parish for us to live?

A slaughter house are they all mass murder’s that we pay to kill and presses out food? A deep breath of air contains so much life in microbes that will end in death, the water you drink same thing. Our sanitized society is guilty of mass murder on a global scale what do you do with that Karma?

And who dose it serve?

Namaste John no karma in nature why just men?

Indeed:
I am a slaughterer in a slaughter house. If I am responsible for slaughter to take place to feed me, am I to be fed to someone else? Or does it make a difference what I strive to give out with this body and mind that has been fed, striving to create something in balance - making it more okay to be a slaughterer in that sense?

UT

¤=[Post Update]=¤


Regarding your scenario of karma. It has been suggested that we knew the "play" before we incarnated, so it was our role to kill him/her and it was their role to be "evil". My worldview up until the last year was that all the bad I gave out came back "on my head". Now I'm rethinking this belief since I'm learning about convergence of our dual realities. It seems we must have the antithesis in order for the synthesis to refine us. Where did I learn this --- Thesis, Antithesis, Synthesis ---- Ascension? I wish I could remember but it was recent.

Exactly what has gone through my mind: if I decide to kill, can I explain it to myself that it was meant to happen? Am I being the balancer? Who did the deciding? Is this the moment where discernment kicks in, in relation to whether an impulse to act is coming from me, or from a Karmic mainframe calling me to act out something pre-designed?

UT

Alie
2nd February 2012, 17:05
Karma is a thought nothing more, Everything on this planet is eating each other, your’s is cosmetic as its killed and possessed for you. Regardless what name you give it, every time you open your mouth and bite down on a peace of food, your eating Karma. Even minerals vitamin’s yogurt, all things living the hole planet is mass murdering constantly all things die and are consumed.

The garments you wear, the house you live in the food you eat, it all is killed for what ever reason, man takes, everything’s takes everything kills.

Civilized people buy from who, killers. You want to stack up a grocery list of karma, get out of this sterilized world of dogmas and look at what has to die for your civilized world to work the nice easy way your living,

Karma is table manners who sits were and how your to sit. Show me anything in your life that doesn’t have to parish for us to live?

A slaughter house are they all mass murder’s that we pay to kill and presses out food? A deep breath of air contains so much life in microbes that will end in death, the water you drink same thing. Our sanitized society is guilty of mass murder on a global scale what do you do with that Karma?

And who dose it serve?

Namaste John no karma in nature why just men?

Indeed:
I am a slaughterer in a slaughter house. If I am responsible for slaughter to take place to feed me, am I to be fed to someone else? Or does it make a difference what I strive to give out with this body and mind that has been fed, striving to create something in balance - making it more okay to be a slaughterer in that sense?

UT

¤=[Post Update]=¤


Regarding your scenario of karma. It has been suggested that we knew the "play" before we incarnated, so it was our role to kill him/her and it was their role to be "evil". My worldview up until the last year was that all the bad I gave out came back "on my head". Now I'm rethinking this belief since I'm learning about convergence of our dual realities. It seems we must have the antithesis in order for the synthesis to refine us. Where did I learn this --- Thesis, Antithesis, Synthesis ---- Ascension? I wish I could remember but it was recent.

Exactly what has gone through my mind: if I decide to kill, can I explain it to myself that it was meant to happen? Am I being the balancer? Who did the deciding? Is this the moment where discernment kicks in, in relation to whether an impulse to act is coming from me, or from a Karmic mainframe calling me to act out something pre-designed?

UT

Yes but if we say "pre-designed" then we have to figure out what is "free will" compared to that? So in the context of a play, some of the "funniest" things happen when they adlib. Would free will then be our "adlibs"? I'm wondering ...

ljwheat
2nd February 2012, 18:08
Karma was only one of many controllers set in place to keep the masses domed down and fearful and subservient to the law the land. And away from the all knowing moment’s of now, in the power of now for the elite, only the masses had to pay some form of penance or tribute.

From birth we have been summarily sterilized into thinking in the past or future never the now were all things exist and function.

Show your baggage or you may not pass, or I may want to blackmail you into paying more taxes or tribute. Were in nature were is tribute paid for wrongs that are committed, ---- none there is no wrong so karma vanishes in the reality of now, ---- stay in the now young padiwan the future has its own time to deal with. And the past no longer exists in the now.
:tinfoil3:

Brings to mind a short story I remember hearing a few years back. A Buddhist monk journeying to a mountain top city, along the path up to the city a group of people were standing near the edge of a drop off and below was a mother tiger nursing her cub’s, the mother was skin and bones from the famine in the land, all the people were concerned on what to do, as the monk approached the cliff giving way for the wise master.

Master what shall we do for this tiger and her cub’s for we have nothing to give as they explained what they were looking at below. As the old Buddhist master finally reached the edge of the cliff to see all that was said, At first glance of the mother and her cub’s-- He flung himself off the cliff.

Pondering karma or wondering if? Or just doing in the now/?

ljwheat
2nd February 2012, 19:17
Karma is a thought nothing more, Everything on this planet is eating each other, your’s is cosmetic as its killed and possessed for you. Regardless what name you give it, every time you open your mouth and bite down on a peace of food, your eating Karma. Even minerals vitamin’s yogurt, all things living the hole planet is mass murdering constantly all things die and are consumed.

The garments you wear, the house you live in the food you eat, it all is killed for what ever reason, man takes, everything’s takes everything kills.

Civilized people buy from who, killers. You want to stack up a grocery list of karma, get out of this sterilized world of dogmas and look at what has to die for your civilized world to work the nice easy way your living,

Karma is table manners who sits were and how your to sit. Show me anything in your life that doesn’t have to parish for us to live?

A slaughter house are they all mass murder’s that we pay to kill and presses out food? A deep breath of air contains so much life in microbes that will end in death, the water you drink same thing. Our sanitized society is guilty of mass murder on a global scale what do you do with that Karma?

And who dose it serve?

Namaste John no karma in nature why just men?

Indeed:
I am a slaughterer in a slaughter house. If I am responsible for slaughter to take place to feed me, am I to be fed to someone else? Or does it make a difference what I strive to give out with this body and mind that has been fed, striving to create something in balance - making it more okay to be a slaughterer in that sense?

UT

¤=[Post Update]=¤


Regarding your scenario of karma. It has been suggested that we knew the "play" before we incarnated, so it was our role to kill him/her and it was their role to be "evil". My worldview up until the last year was that all the bad I gave out came back "on my head". Now I'm rethinking this belief since I'm learning about convergence of our dual realities. It seems we must have the antithesis in order for the synthesis to refine us. Where did I learn this --- Thesis, Antithesis, Synthesis ---- Ascension? I wish I could remember but it was recent.

Exactly what has gone through my mind: if I decide to kill, can I explain it to myself that it was meant to happen? Am I being the balancer? Who did the deciding? Is this the moment where discernment kicks in, in relation to whether an impulse to act is coming from me, or from a Karmic mainframe calling me to act out something pre-designed?

UT

Yes but if we say "pre-designed" then we have to figure out what is "free will" compared to that? So in the context of a play, some of the "funniest" things happen when they adlib. Would free will then be our "adlibs"? I'm wondering ...

This bring to mind in IMO, the well known Movie Ground hog’s Day, the clock click's and the radio comes on “I GOT YOU BABY” and life start a new. Each time knowledge is gained each day a retry till, Like Thomas Edison’s 200th failed battery 201 is a success! Wha La. ? Or is karma just a way a mouse figures out how to reach the cheese in a maze?

Ultima Thule
2nd February 2012, 19:48
Karma was only one of many controllers set in place to keep the masses domed down and fearful and subservient to the law the land. And away from the all knowing moment’s of now, in the power of now for the elite, only the masses had to pay some form of penance or tribute.

How do you know that to be certain?
Not arguing against your POV, but curious.

UT

Ultima Thule
2nd February 2012, 19:52
This bring to mind in IMO, the well known Movie Ground hog’s Day, the clock click's and the radio comes on “I GOT YOU BABY” and life start a new. Each time knowledge is gained each day a retry till, Like Thomas Edison’s 200th failed battery 201 is a success! Wha La. ? Or is karma just a way a mouse figures out how to reach the cheese in a maze?

This reminds me to think about whether there is individual karma and family-karma? Am I battery number 201, trying to do better job as a male member of my particular lineage? Every generation aiming a bit further? Many people find out when aging that they more and more start to resemble their parents in all ways, karma?

Anyone with rock solid, first hand know-how as to how karma works?

UT

Tarka the Duck
2nd February 2012, 20:00
Hello UT! Although I try to avoid doing "cut and paste" posts, I did like this. It's an excerpt from a longer essay about karma by Reginald Ray.

To Westerners, the doctrine of karma can be somewhat off-putting, seeming to be a mechanical law that exacts full payment from us for our moral infractions. Yet Buddhism actually takes the opposite view. Only when we see fully the ramifications of karma that can we understand who we are and why we are here, connect with the warmth and blessing of the world, and experience genuine compassion for other people. Beyond this, to understand that there is no "I"--but only the operation of impersonal karmic forces--is to attain the freedom of complete liberation.

The Buddhist insistence that there is ultimately no "I" or "self" raises an interesting question: how can there be karmic continuity from life to life? The answer is that every intentional action leaves a karmic imprint on our minds. Most often, the trace is so subtle that we are not aware of it. Yet it remains within us at an inaccessible level of our mind known as the alaya, or "universal unconscious." From there it continues to influence how we experience things and think about them. It is this subtle consciousness, conditioned by all of our previous karma, that exits the body at death and carries along with it our entire karmic history.

This is possible because, although ultimately there is no self, relatively speaking each of us is defined by a "life-stream" of connected moments (santana). One moment of consciousness, acting as a principal cause, transfers its karmic burden to the next, during our life and at our death. It is our very belief in a "self" that holds this karmic stream intact and enables us to have the illusion of being a separate, discrete person. It is this illusory idea, structured according to our karma, that continues from one lifetime to the next.



Anyone with rock solid, first hand know-how as to how karma works?

Don't we all see that that on a daily basis - the results of the laws of cause and effect?
If you smile at someone, they'll smile back.
If you are angry with them, the chances are that that will provoke a similar reaction in them.

ljwheat
2nd February 2012, 21:22
This bring to mind in IMO, the well known Movie Ground hog’s Day, the clock click's and the radio comes on “I GOT YOU BABY” and life start a new. Each time knowledge is gained each day a retry till, Like Thomas Edison’s 200th failed battery 201 is a success! Wha La. ? Or is karma just a way a mouse figures out how to reach the cheese in a maze?

This reminds me to think about whether there is individual karma and family-karma? Am I battery number 201, trying to do better job as a male member of my particular lineage? Every generation aiming a bit further? Many people find out when aging that they more and more start to resemble their parents in all ways, karma?

Anyone with rock solid, first hand know-how as to how karma works?

UT

ydh8pYo40zI

this is a long interview but, a bubble in a bubble in a bubble, will explain georges view as mine> john

Kelly
2nd February 2012, 21:49
Who actually made up karma though?
We have all these interesting theories, about dissolving or absolving karma, but who really knows?
We also have free will too, so say, if right now, i decide, by my free will, that i will never retaliate against anyone, even though i know they are going to harm me, and i let myself be killed by them, have i created karma, by allowing myself to be killed and allowing them free will to kill me, and not living my life as i really wanted too, because i wanted to absolve my karma?
So by giving my life to someone, as a selfless act, to allow them to live out their free will, and thereby absolving my "karma", even though it was a selfish, yet, selfless act, does my karma get wiped out?
And why?
And who by?
I think the whole notion of karma is made up, to make us indebted to someone, or something, to make us again, compliant to someone else's will, not our own!
When we get to a point of realising, we really are one, and are equal, then we would not want to hurt anybody else, or manipulate, and i think karma is just another tool in a box of many many tricks to make us obligated to others rules! xxx
I apologise if my above statement does not come out properly in print, it sounded ok in my head :o :) xxxx

another bob
2nd February 2012, 23:30
Fill me in according to your perspectives in relation to this crude example, if it feels appropriate I might drop in some other scenarios:

If there is a criminal that has killed many and is about to do some more killing and I am in the position to kill him, what is going to go down with me "Karma-vise"? Am I excused of any karma accumulating due to me committing an act of killing, because it is for a greater good and the criminal had it coming? Or am I to face karmic consequences just the same as I would killing an innocent being?

UT

Greetings, Friend!

From my notes, Mahayana Buddhism introduced the concept of “skillful means” (upaya kausalya). Under certain circumstances, it's claimed that one may violate moral precepts such as non-harming when one’s motivation is wholesome and pure.
Tibetans, for example, venerate Pelgyi Dorje who assassinated King Langdarma almost 1,200 years ago. Langdarma allegedly suppressed Buddhism and persecuted Buddhist monks, and Pelgyi Dorje killed him to preserve the Dharma for the benefit of all beings and to save Langdarma from creating even worse karma for himself.
Similarly, in the Upaya-Kausalya Sutra, a virtuous sea captain named Great Compassion (the Buddha in a previous lifetime) takes an axe to an assassin who plans on killing a cohort of 500 bodhisattvas who are aboard ship. In doing so, Great Compassion is willing to be reborn in a Hell Realm as a consequence, but his act is deemed morally commendable, and his karma is not as bad as it would have been had his motivation been impure. As always, one's level of awareness will determine how one approaches the subject.


In Zen, there is a famous tale of Hyakujo's fox. Once when Hyakujo delivered some Zen lectures an old man attended them, unseen by the monks. At the end of each talk when the monks left so did he. But one day he remained after the had gone, and Hyakujo asked him: `Who are you?'

The old man replied: `I am not a human being, but I was a human being when the Kashapa Buddha preached in this world. I was a Zen master and lived on this mountain. At that time one of my students asked me whether the enlightened man is subject to the law of causation. I answered him: "The enlightened man is not subject to the law of causation (karma)." For this answer evidencing a clinging to absoluteness I became a fox for five hundred rebirths, and I am still a fox. Will you save me from this condition with your Zen words and let me get out of a fox's body? Now may I ask you: Is the enlightened man subject to the law of causation?'

Hyakujo said: `The enlightened man is one with the law of causation.'

At the words of Hyakujo the old man was enlightened. `I am emancipated,' he said, paying homage with a deep bow. `I am no more a fox, but I have to leave my body in my dwelling place behind this mountain. Please perform my funeral as a monk.' Then he disappeared.



Another take on the subject of karma is provided by Nanci Danison, a near death experiencer:

Oo8szDkpcsM


:yo:

Anchor
3rd February 2012, 00:00
i think karma is just another tool in a box of many many tricks to make us obligated to others rules! xxx

I dont. I think some interpretations have done that.

The purest example the function and properties of karma will be seen in close observation of each persons own life.

What more convincing would you then need?



Tibetans, for example, venerate Pelgyi Dorje who assassinated King Langdarma almost 1,200 years ago. Langdarma allegedly suppressed Buddhism and persecuted Buddhist monks, and Pelgyi Dorje killed him to preserve the Dharma for the benefit of all beings and to save Langdarma from creating even worse karma for himself.

Nevertheless karma would have been caused for Pelgyi Dorje - what does the story say about that?


Similarly, in the Upaya-Kausalya Sutra, a virtuous sea captain named Great Compassion (the Buddha in a previous lifetime) takes an axe to an assassin who plans on killing a cohort of 500 bodhisattvas who are aboard ship. In doing so, Great Compassion is willing to be reborn in a Hell Realm as a consequence

This recognizes that even though it may have seem a worthwhile act, there is no getting around the law of karma.

I think you made the point that how this all plays out is based on your level of awareness - and I agree. This will of course condition the intent behind ones actions and the kinds of karma that eventuate from them. As the stakes get higher, the consequences do as well.

I loved the fox story :)

John..

m1i1c2h3a5e8l
3rd February 2012, 00:22
Events can be described as seeing someone elses karma in action. I believe that karma must exist. ( If that is even in question ) Observing and participating in a karmic event is how our lives are balanced.

another bob
3rd February 2012, 00:25
Nevertheless karma would have been caused for Pelgyi Dorje - what does the story say about that?

Heya John!

I'm not sure, so I can only speculate, but perhaps as a consequence he was made to spend 10 days with a bunch of humans and their barking dogs as they toured Neptune?

:yo:

ljwheat
3rd February 2012, 00:41
Y2wr5teMwUg

:der:This game. This world. This life.
Its very, very clever game being played out for us, as we awake to who we are deep and knowing higher self emerges, the Vail is lifting. for all there will be a time and place. When this takes place, all knowing self “you’” will know exactly what is, has been, and what will be.

Until then we dance with rapping our heads around logic and labels to truths that have no words to ponder.:der:then you'll :high5:

Ultima Thule
3rd February 2012, 04:40
Who actually made up karma though?
We have all these interesting theories, about dissolving or absolving karma, but who really knows?
We also have free will too, so say, if right now, i decide, by my free will, that i will never retaliate against anyone, even though i know they are going to harm me, and i let myself be killed by them, have i created karma, by allowing myself to be killed and allowing them free will to kill me, and not living my life as i really wanted too, because i wanted to absolve my karma?
So by giving my life to someone, as a selfless act, to allow them to live out their free will, and thereby absolving my "karma", even though it was a selfish, yet, selfless act, does my karma get wiped out?
And why?
And who by?
I think the whole notion of karma is made up, to make us indebted to someone, or something, to make us again, compliant to someone else's will, not our own!
When we get to a point of realising, we really are one, and are equal, then we would not want to hurt anybody else, or manipulate, and i think karma is just another tool in a box of many many tricks to make us obligated to others rules! xxx
I apologise if my above statement does not come out properly in print, it sounded ok in my head :o :) xxxx

It came out very much okay!
You are approaching the very reason why I started this thread, namely "what the bleep do we FACTUALLY know about karma?"
There is a concept of karma in let´s say spiritual communities and I guess most of us can relate to the basic idea of it(and even have personal experiences that show us examples of the workings of it), but I am concerned that we might have accepted something as a given that we are understanding only partially and possibly making up things on the way to add to it. In analogy we might be driving a car with gas and brake, but we haven´t realized that there is a steering wheel - this would amount to more or less to definite "nonsense" - greetings Roman!

UT

Ultima Thule
3rd February 2012, 04:48
Fill me in according to your perspectives in relation to this crude example, if it feels appropriate I might drop in some other scenarios:

If there is a criminal that has killed many and is about to do some more killing and I am in the position to kill him, what is going to go down with me "Karma-vise"? Am I excused of any karma accumulating due to me committing an act of killing, because it is for a greater good and the criminal had it coming? Or am I to face karmic consequences just the same as I would killing an innocent being?

UT

Greetings, Friend!

From my notes, Mahayana Buddhism introduced the concept of “skillful means” (upaya kausalya). Under certain circumstances, it's claimed that one may violate moral precepts such as non-harming when one’s motivation is wholesome and pure.

Thank you for your reply Bob!
I would expect something in the lines of your quote. A thing that has been bothering me recently has been the difference between(using my scenario) of either letting it play out, letting the killer kill some more, as "everything is in divine order" OR taking action and stopping the murderer from committing more murders, even by the means of killing him. It would seem IMHO not plausible for someone to get "punished" in the same magnitude for committing an act of killing thus saving many more lives - perhaps the level of awareness is the very thing that does the modulating.

UT
ps. I haven´t yet had the time to check out the video but I will

Ultima Thule
3rd February 2012, 04:57
i think karma is just another tool in a box of many many tricks to make us obligated to others rules! xxx

I dont. I think some interpretations have done that.

The purest example the function and properties of karma will be seen in close observation of each persons own life.

What more convincing would you then need?



Tibetans, for example, venerate Pelgyi Dorje who assassinated King Langdarma almost 1,200 years ago. Langdarma allegedly suppressed Buddhism and persecuted Buddhist monks, and Pelgyi Dorje killed him to preserve the Dharma for the benefit of all beings and to save Langdarma from creating even worse karma for himself.

Nevertheless karma would have been caused for Pelgyi Dorje - what does the story say about that?


Similarly, in the Upaya-Kausalya Sutra, a virtuous sea captain named Great Compassion (the Buddha in a previous lifetime) takes an axe to an assassin who plans on killing a cohort of 500 bodhisattvas who are aboard ship. In doing so, Great Compassion is willing to be reborn in a Hell Realm as a consequence

This recognizes that even though it may have seem a worthwhile act, there is no getting around the law of karma.

I think you made the point that how this all plays out is based on your level of awareness - and I agree. This will of course condition the intent behind ones actions and the kinds of karma that eventuate from them. As the stakes get higher, the consequences do as well.

I loved the fox story :)

John..

Very good, thank you! For the sake of conversation, let me highlight what you agreed with Bob on:

a virtuous sea captain named Great Compassion (the Buddha in a previous lifetime) takes an axe to an assassin who plans on killing a cohort of 500 bodhisattvas who are aboard ship. In doing so, Great Compassion is willing to be reborn in a Hell Realm as a consequence, but his act is deemed morally commendable, and his karma is not as bad as it would have been had his motivation been impure. As always, one's level of awareness will determine how one approaches the subject.

So that would indicate that there is no absolute reconciliation to take place, but instead there is moderation in relation to the level of awareness. Would that mean that by very high awareness we mean taking action according to ones connection to source and thus awareness equals "acting according to the plan"?

Furthermore: the more you are not aware and "connected" to the source(god etc...), the more you are in separation and the more you are in the realm of karma. And the more you are aware and connected and therefore in unity, you are acting within unity and therefore karma has less and less effect as you are only one and there is no one else to act upon?
UT

Ultima Thule
3rd February 2012, 05:21
Another take on the subject of karma is provided by Nanci Danison, a near death experiencer:

Oo8szDkpcsM



Very possible!
In essence Nanci says that in her experience there is no karma as such an element that it is commonly understood. There is no law and certitude of "payback", but people choose different aspects in different incarnations and they just might choose to experience the opposite perspectives of the same dynamic.

This leads to a question: what if there is no karma as such, but can you graduate from a grade if you haven´t taken all the classes? Can you graduate and advance in your spirit if you only lead certain kinds of experiences(like taking only math)? Is karma in essence exercised during incarnations by free will choice to analogically "attend all classes" to get you advancing in your education and eventually graduate? Therefore karma would not be obligatory in principle but in practice you would have to eventually choose to experience all i.e. balance your karma?

UT

Anchor
3rd February 2012, 06:14
Very good, thank you! For the sake of conversation, let me highlight what you agreed with Bob on:

a virtuous sea captain named Great Compassion (the Buddha in a previous lifetime) takes an axe to an assassin who plans on killing a cohort of 500 bodhisattvas who are aboard ship. In doing so, Great Compassion is willing to be reborn in a Hell Realm as a consequence, but his act is deemed morally commendable, and his karma is not as bad as it would have been had his motivation been impure. As always, one's level of awareness will determine how one approaches the subject.

In actual fact, the part you highlighted was deliberately not included in my quote.

So I should actually emphasise that I do not actually agree with the statement that his act was "deemed morally commendable" in the eyes of the universe that knows no polarity. In fact to my way of thinking only "Great Compassion" would have known the truth of that, as he is ultimately the only one who can judge himself on that issue. The entity so dispatched and he may very well have been affected by the karma of that event in quite substantial ways.


So that would indicate that there is no absolute reconciliation to take place, but instead there is moderation in relation to the level of awareness.

I don't know if I agree or not - please can you define precisely what you mean by reconciliation and moderation in that context.


Would that mean that by very high awareness we mean taking action according to ones connection to source and thus awareness equals "acting according to the plan"?

It may mean that, if you mean by "plan" the divine plan of the creator, then in those cases the karma would not be yours would it...


Furthermore: the more you are not aware and "connected" to the source(god etc...), the more you are in separation and the more you are in the realm of karma. And the more you are aware and connected and therefore in unity, you are acting within unity and therefore karma has less and less effect as you are only one and there is no one else to act upon?

That seems very logical to me. However, an individual of high awareness who say commits a gross infringement of freewill would probably know more about the karma and the responsibilities they hold for "right action" (which when following of the heart). The higher in awareness, the greater the power, and the greater the responsibility and the greater potential impacts of any error and consequentially huge karma.

Consider:

An innocent child picks the heads of some flowers in its parents prized flower garden to make a gift for its parents. The parents know the child has made an error but the child is immediately forgiven and the karma is neutralized. If the parents become angry and scold the child, all kinds of karmic complexities issue forth in streamers - most likely making the situation worse for everyone.

You have used the example of killing quite a lot, how about some minor things, like offending someone deliberately or cursing your "bad-luck" or getting angry and being environmentally damaging with that anger etc. The more evolved you get the greater fidelity of experience is had and lessons learned through the operation of karma.

Project_Buggy_Beach
3rd February 2012, 07:25
Collective karma must be like all the tax dollars that are collected from a particular country, it doesn't matter that you don't directly pull the trigger, you paid for the gun, maybe indirectly but you will certainly in a just and fair system (as we are assuming the place we live is) have at least a small accumulation of karma but as others have suggested that can be worked off in various ways, so distancing yourself from the trigger finger seems like a good idea.

Ultima Thule
3rd February 2012, 10:49
Very good, thank you! For the sake of conversation, let me highlight what you agreed with Bob on:

a virtuous sea captain named Great Compassion (the Buddha in a previous lifetime) takes an axe to an assassin who plans on killing a cohort of 500 bodhisattvas who are aboard ship. In doing so, Great Compassion is willing to be reborn in a Hell Realm as a consequence, but his act is deemed morally commendable, and his karma is not as bad as it would have been had his motivation been impure. As always, one's level of awareness will determine how one approaches the subject.

In actual fact, the part you highlighted was deliberately not included in my quote.

So I should actually emphasise that I do not actually agree with the statement that his act was "deemed morally commendable" in the eyes of the universe that knows no polarity. In fact to my way of thinking only "Great Compassion" would have known the truth of that, as he is ultimately the only one who can judge himself on that issue. The entity so dispatched and he may very well have been affected by the karma of that event in quite substantial ways.


So that would indicate that there is no absolute reconciliation to take place, but instead there is moderation in relation to the level of awareness.

I don't know if I agree or not - please can you define precisely what you mean by reconciliation and moderation in that context.


Would that mean that by very high awareness we mean taking action according to ones connection to source and thus awareness equals "acting according to the plan"?

It may mean that, if you mean by "plan" the divine plan of the creator, then in those cases the karma would not be yours would it...


Furthermore: the more you are not aware and "connected" to the source(god etc...), the more you are in separation and the more you are in the realm of karma. And the more you are aware and connected and therefore in unity, you are acting within unity and therefore karma has less and less effect as you are only one and there is no one else to act upon?

That seems very logical to me. However, an individual of high awareness who say commits a gross infringement of freewill would probably know more about the karma and the responsibilities they hold for "right action" (which when following of the heart). The higher in awareness, the greater the power, and the greater the responsibility and the greater potential impacts of any error and consequentially huge karma.

Consider:

An innocent child picks the heads of some flowers in its parents prized flower garden to make a gift for its parents. The parents know the child has made an error but the child is immediately forgiven and the karma is neutralized. If the parents become angry and scold the child, all kinds of karmic complexities issue forth in streamers - most likely making the situation worse for everyone.

You have used the example of killing quite a lot, how about some minor things, like offending someone deliberately or cursing your "bad-luck" or getting angry and being environmentally damaging with that anger etc. The more evolved you get the greater fidelity of experience is had and lessons learned through the operation of karma.

Very good, thank you!
I had a feeling you had left out that part on purpose, so I thought that I add it in to hear what you think of it. I very much enjoyed your example about the child and the flowers. Would this go in the lines of a hunter asking for prey to appear, and once a consensual agreement is made, the killing no longer creates such karma? What do you think of that?
Interestingly one old finnish word for hunting means asking for prey.

By absolute I meant that several persons committing the same action would get exactly the same karma, regardless of the circumstances. By moderation I meant that the awareness, the circumstances and the meaning would moderate the outcome.

UT

Ultima Thule
3rd February 2012, 12:23
Collective karma must be like all the tax dollars that are collected from a particular country, it doesn't matter that you don't directly pull the trigger, you paid for the gun, maybe indirectly but you will certainly in a just and fair system (as we are assuming the place we live is) have at least a small accumulation of karma but as others have suggested that can be worked off in various ways, so distancing yourself from the trigger finger seems like a good idea.

Thank you Project Buggy Beach!
Would you figure that collective karma could be described in a way by the Hawaian system of Hoponopono, where the very fact of you being aware of something determines that you have a part in it? i.e. I happen to open up a radio, where in the news I just hear how a plane has crashed in the Andes, had I opened seconds later, I never would have known. In that ideology I am aware, and I was meant to be aware and thus I am at least somewhat responsible for the plane crash, from whatever distance from eons ago or so. I have used that system of clearing at times, and I must admit that I have gotten results. I haven´t conducted a search, but perhaps there is a thread about Hoponopono in Avalon, very worthwhile!

UT

Anchor
3rd February 2012, 12:43
Would this go in the lines of a hunter asking for prey to appear, and once a consensual agreement is made, the killing no longer creates such karma? What do you think of that?
Interestingly one old finnish word for hunting means asking for prey.

I understand that animals are willing to provide themselves for food, the karma in taking an animal with honor, gratitude and respect as mercifully as possible in the act of killing would not in my understanding create karma of a greatly distorting kind. The reason for this is the animal is forgiving by nature, and the hunter who does this in harmony with the natural process is too. Karma is thus neutralized. Taking animals any other way would in my view create karma.

Our physical bodies and the physical bodies of the animals are part of Gaia. If we have not learned to do without eating animal flesh, I am sure it is permitted to eat the animals provided that its done in the right way.

I never heard of the asking for prey, but this seems like an excellent start, since Gaia is the provider and permission is therefore implicit.

I am reminded of the notion that you should ask permission to enter the forest. Once you have the inner knowing of that permission, perhaps the forest absolves you from any damage you need to do in passing through it.

Thanks for that.


By absolute I meant that several persons committing the same action would get exactly the same karma, regardless of the circumstances.

Ok, I don't agree. Going back the ball analogy, we are all different, we all therefore hit the ball in subtly different ways. (According to our energy patterns/distortions).


By moderation I meant that the awareness, the circumstances and the meaning would moderate the outcome.

Knowing what you are doing is bound to make a difference - especially if you understand the consequences, and that includes karma. Such wisdom would not moderate karma, but it would moderate what you decided to do in the first place.

Ultima Thule
3rd February 2012, 17:01
Knowing what you are doing is bound to make a difference - especially if you understand the consequences, and that includes karma. Such wisdom would not moderate karma, but it would moderate what you decided to do in the first place.

Well said!

The person performing the action that produces karma is in fact inseparable from the resulting karma itself? An unawakened being can create such karma that highly developed being would simply not create - without proving itself to being not so highly evolved?

UT

Ultima Thule
3rd February 2012, 17:26
Okay!
I have been told about karma in many ways and from many POVs and it has been a pleasure to view all the posts. I thank all of you so far!
Now I ask again: does anyone have anything other than second hand information about karma? I´m not trying (hopefully) to kane the deceased stallion anymore, but I am honestly interested in discovering about this karma issue some more.

What if none of our opinions or source-material by someone else don´t count, do we have any solid information about karma?

The reason I am asking is that I am still unclear of it. An example:
I am aware how my expectations and emotions call for experiences into my life, for better or for worse. What if I expect/fear something negative to happen, say car to brake down and it happens. Did I just get karma from that expectation? On the other hand I can just as easily call for something nice to happen, say the car functioning perfectly. Did it just create good karma? Or is karma being created by how I feel about myself and how I value and love myself and that results in my cars behaviour? Is karma the very result of separation or unity? Does the very act of feeling separation and perhaps fear-based emotions create so called negative karma even if there is no action and vice versa?
Or are what things and experiences I call into my life and karma separate things?

UT

another bob
3rd February 2012, 18:22
Greetings, Friend!

May I suggest that you are going about this inquiry based on a fundamental misunderstanding? That is, you are predicating your questions based on the notion of being an individual self, the doer. In that case, there will be no end to your questions, and likewise no satisfactory answers, because you are attempting to determine the fate of a character who in reality is no more than a figment of the imagination (although for those in 3-D at least, it all seems very real indeed).

This is why I mentioned earlier that it all comes down to one's angle of vision. If one believes oneself to be the doer, then one will identify oneself as the person, the body. So long as the feeling "I am doing" is present, one will inevitably experience the result of one’s acts, whether they are good or bad. In other words, while you identify with the body you will continue to accumulate good and bad karma, and the more you try and "fix it", the more will accumulate, and this goes on and on and up and down and all around -- one dream life following the next in endless succesion.

Furthermore, unless one recognizes their true nature -- who and what they truly are -- the belief that they are the doer will remain, and with it all the accompanying complications of the karmic destiny. Thus, the best suggestion would be to find out first of all what you truly are, as well as what you are not, and then your questions will drop away naturally. Once you have plunged into the ocean, you don't have to wonder if the water is cold or warm.

One effective way to discover your true nature is to inquire of yourself, "Who asks these questions about karma?" Discard all intellectual ideas, and go straight to the source of your own thoughts themselves. When you look at your mind now, you will see nothing there. When you see nothing there, relax into that, and abide. If you persevere in that not knowing, not seeing, not doing, then something very interesting will happen. I leave it for you to discover what that is.


:yo:

Kelly
3rd February 2012, 22:53
Lol, Thankyou Ultima, im just questioning everything at the moment, i guess we all are, we are finding ourselves, not what other people tell us, or what is passed down from generation to generation, and if the truth really is within us, and we are all one in some cosmic way, then why would we have to go through karma, cos arent we just hurting ourselves more and more on the never ending wheel of pain?
If iam you, and you are me, and we are all one, then what pain i cause you, i would also feel myself on some level, so i would not want to cause you pain, hence i would be hurting myself.
The whole karma thing makes no sense in a point of learning lessons, because learning never ends, we learn all the time, so does that mean that karma also never ends?
Cant we learn in a more evolved way?
Cos the more karma we accumulate, the deeper in we get to more karma, and cant find our way out, so this is why i think it is actually a tool to keep us trapped on the never ending wheel! xxxx

Anchor
3rd February 2012, 23:55
Its only a trap until you realize that a wheel of karma can be stopped.

Ultima Thule
6th February 2012, 11:55
I think we have reached somewhat of a closure here.

Bob nailed it and kind of made my point that I had been wondering in relation to karma among other things. We have but rumors and mirage about karma unless our own divine connection is working. I wanted to rattle a little bit the concepts that are taken for granted in terms of karma. We just might´ve laid out together in this thread a reasonably good big picture of what karma is about - then again we might be dead wrong, there is no way to be sure. We might have been fooled in this stuff just as well as we might have been fooled in any other stuff. Off course if someone has first hand solid information, you are more than welcome to post it here!

Pie´n´eal has just recently started a thread http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?38293-What-if-conspiracy-sites-were....venus-fly-traps- which is very interesting - what if some of these sites and some of the information and the teachings are there as traps just to lure us from going within? They probably are IMO. Remember in the Matrix-trilogy how people were kept occupied with something just slightly fabricated to fight for, so that they waste their strength and don´t address the real issue?

It is but a dream we live in and one waking up won´t do, you need to wake up from a dream within a dream within a dream..

I leave this thread at this point to be an open ground for people to discuss how they view and understand karma.

Thank you all for your participation
UT